I've heard it all and understand everyone's sentiments when they say they "want" their kids to lose. A better way to say it might be "I wouldn't be pissed off if they lost". This seems to be the sentiment of many travel team parents that are simply burnt out. Another extreme is the helicopter parents that can't come to terms with their kids quitting a sport or graduating from HS, which has been discussed before.

I'm sure we'll hear all kinds of stories about overbearing coaches (yes, we've known a few), great coaches, winning season that sucked and losing seasons that were great. It helps to have a well-rounded player experience regardless of the sport, but it's also great to win. Life is about winning and losing, so doing each gracefully should be the goal.

"We won! We won! Um, unfortunately because I bet on the other team, we won't be going for pizza." - Chief Wiggum

My kids aren't at this point yet, but I've heard similar stories. A local radio station did a call-in segment about it last year that was pretty interesting. Most of the parents who called said they secretly wanted their kids' teams to lose so they could go home early. They called it "the hidden secret of youth sports".

I have to say I totally understand where they are coming from, especially when out of town travel is involved.

Here's a simple solution, don't sign up for the travel teams!

There are two separate ideas here.

One, getting sick of the travel. I'm with you on that one.

Two, wishing one could orchestrate your kid's every experience. Just because it's the flip side of the supposed "everyone wins all the time" self esteem project doesn't make it any less manipulative.

I second moxiemom1's comment. I definitely take into consideration the PIA factor for any activity I sign my kids up for. Better to deal with it from the get-go than to stress about it later.

I was always secretly happy to hear when my daughters didn't make the all-star soccer team. What a drag - another week of practice, another week end blown on a commitment that I didn't even enjoy.

OK, here's the confession: I pretended to be happy going to the games that my kids played their various sports, but it was an act, nothing less. In actuality, to me, it was more like a sentence, - a detention of sorts, just to stand there and try to imagine a game was being played, but since I couldn't see the action, I lost my ability to care. The best part of the game was when the whistle blew that ended it. Another lesson in patience done with!

I agree with Moxie, and I have to say I don't really understand the "travel team." Are these kids all only children? Doesn't seem right to me for the entire family to be dragged around for one child's activity, and what do you do if you have 2 or 3 kids who want to play on these teams?

I don't think these even existed when I was a kid. Can't kids still play sports in high school and even get scholarships without these things? It just seems kind of excessive to me, especially since I'm sure the majority of parents don't have the money it would take to do this.

Wonder what else this might extend to... would you root for your child to fail a test at school? Maybe if he does poorly, you won't have to help pay for Yale. You won't have to cart him to all those college visits. Spend your 529 money on something nice for the wife...

It's not just the travel teams. A lot of rec leagues have weekend tournaments and the difference between losing early and going to the finals can be 6 hours in the gym. Do you tell your kids they can't play rec league either?

For those of you who say "just don't let them play on the travel team", where do you draw the line as to what sports/activities they can participate in and which ones they can't? Do you not let them do anything that you don't also enjoy?

I am also a little surprised that the parents are expected to go to every game, especially for hs-aged kids. I was too hopeless to ever do team sports, but my husband swam on a club team from the age of 12, and on the varsity team in high school, and at least by the HS age his parents were not going to meets. He was responsable for getting himself to practice, meets, etc. And I can't imagine that he cared at all that they weren't there- he was with his friends, and wouldn't have noticed, anyway. And what would they have done with his siblings during these meets, which frequently lasted 3 hours and sometimes all day?

I guess I think it's one thing to be there for a big game, or the last game of the season, but every weekend??

Floof, unfortunately these days, kids usually don't have much of a chance of making their HS teams if they haven't been playing a sport at a competitive level previously. We are now in an age of specialization (which is bad thing IMO) and unless your kids go to a pretty small HS, they need to be very good to make the team.

Dennis, I think my issue is that I don't understand why an activity for 1 kid has to become the activity for the entire family. I think in the situation you describe, I would probably tell my kid to call me when they're ready to be picked up.

I did play the violin fairly intensively when I was a kid, and had frequent extra orchestras that I played in or strings activities that would go on all weekend. The parents most definitely did not stay for these things, even for elementary-aged kids.

"Floof, unfortunately these days, kids usually don't have much of a chance of making their HS teams if they haven't been playing a sport at a competitive level previously."

But does this mean lower-income kids can't play HS sports?

I feel sorry for kids today. Sports and other extracurriculaar activitis have become an extensions of the womb. There is no opportunity to be exposed to the real world. Parents are always present, always hovering, aways protecting their kids from scrathes or, God forbid,altercations or tensions, with their peers.
There are exemptions, of course, parents who understand how important to maturation is learning to take care of yourself, and paents who have to work and cannot "be there for their kids".
I learned more about relationships and character on the sandlot pickup games sans parents than any "organized" sport!

Floof, if the lower-income kids did not play on competitive teams and go to the same school as the upper-income kids who have been playing on competitive teams, then they are at a significant disadvantage. The top-level athletes will still make the team, but below them, the previous experience makes a huge difference.

"But does this mean lower-income kids can't play HS sports? "

Depends. Sometimes they have to do a lot of fundraising. Any time I go on certain streets in Baltimore, there are AAU basketball teams fundraising on the corners. That's because those are lower-income kids who want to enter tournaments, travel, etc. and Mom/Dad can't write a check.

Even in reasonably affluent areas, teams and programs will still do a lot of fundraising because the costs are so high. And many programs do offer "scholarships" for kids with the desire, commitment and talent but not the resources. But often the families are expected to make the contribution in other ways - help fundraise; work the grounds, etc.

Answering the earlier question re: making the HS team without playing travel: it depends on the school and the sport. But yes, if your HS has a strong team in a popular sport, unless you're just an unbelievable natural athlete you're getting cut if you don't have years of travel. If your HS team is weak or the sport's not popular, then you can make it just based on rec play or even on athletic ability. But don't count on that.

"Can't kids still play sports in high school and even get scholarships without these things? "

Never, ever, ever get your kids into sports on the hope/assumption/dream that they'll get a scholarship. The odds are too small

But getting back to this earlier question of floof's - in almost all sports, exposure to college coaches and scholarships come not from high school play, but from travel/select play. Football's probably the only exception I can think of (and even that's based on camps/showcases a lot of times). There are a lot of reasons; some good, some bad; but the biggest one seems to be that the level of high school competition is so uneven that coaches have a hard time making a judgment about how good a player really is. When you see the player in a travel tournament, you see how that player truly stacks up against his/her peers, not running roughshod over a weaker team or being shut down by a much better team because she's the only good player on her own team.

Not saying that's good or bad; just saying that that seems to be the way it is.

"Do you not let them do anything that you don't also enjoy?" yes, while in elementary school. I'll loosen the reins a bit after that.

"Football's probably the only exception I can think of"

You're either not thinking hard enough, or you're thinking based on your own regional experience...

06902 - you could be right; I'm certainly thinking about this region. What examples can you name from your region?

""Do you not let them do anything that you don't also enjoy?"

It's not about me anymore, it's all about the kids. I live vicariously.

I agree with AB's comments and let me add, until your kid asks to try out for or is recommended for a travel team, I'd never say never. All programs are different so to make a blanket stmt is premature.

We said no to trying out for travel soccer (on an invite from the coach) because my daughter was just not interested enough. Fortunately there are great networks within our local girls soccer league and very, very few parents travel every weekend to every game because they ride share.

I will add though, our Girls HS Soccer program is extremely competitive. If you haven't been on the travel teams you aren't making the team. There are 2-3 HS's in our county that have unbelievable football programs, filtering from an extremely competitive tackle fb league that starts with 5 year olds!

One HS in our county had 14 kids that received scholarships in the past 2 years, I can't tell you how uncommon that is. The coach is reknowned for his program and ability to work the system for his players.

I can't stress enough - it ALL depends on the circumstances and family comfort level.

"What examples can you name from your region?"

Hockey, wrestling, girls basketball, volleyball - that's just from my county. I'm sure there are 100's of examples from all over the country where a sport in a league has a tremendous reputation, and is where most of the college recruiting takes place.

I'm sort of on the flip side of this - my husband credits his travel swim team for showing him a world beyond the small town where he grew up and giving him the confidence to travel around the world later. I'm not sure that's the only cause, but boy, I can see that IF (big if) our son is interested in something like that, he'll really want to support it.

Is there some rule that says you have to go to every game? Drop your kid off at the game and then go do something else. Not going to every game can help kids learn that the game is not the "end all and be all".

What exactly are travel teams - are they sponsored by rec leagues or schools or what?

"Hockey, wrestling, girls basketball, volleyball - that's just from my county."

Hmm, interesting. Can't comment on hockey and wrestling; don't know anything about them. Girls basketball - most recruiting on a national level is done based on the player's AAU or select team; very little is based on high schools. There may be some small local schools recruiting based primarily on high school, but that's about it.

Volleyball - around here, the girls who get volleyball scholarships are mostly recruited based on Junior Olympic volleyball, because that's nationally based. The girls play high school volleyball from around Aug 15 through November; then the rest of the time they're playing JO. The daughter of a good friend of mine is in line for a scholarship; they've told me time and again that the college coaches tracked her through her club/JO volleyball; they LOOKED at her in high school some but that was secondary.

YMMV, I guess.

Also, off topic to SueMc or other wiccan/pagan folks here - what books (adult or childs) do you recommend for explaining the winter celebrations of your traditions? Thanks.

Why not learn to say 'No' to your over=scheduled, over=indulged spoiled brats. Tell them to come home right after school and study or do chores. Why are you being a taxi-service to your kids, anyway? Why are you marching to their orders when you obviously hate it? Grow a backbone and get out of the school athletics racket.

"YMMV, I guess."

You guess? No, no ... you are the all knowing dispenser of womens' college athletics recruiting trends ...

Carry on.

I dunno- these sports teams that are such a huge time-suck seem like kind of a gamble to me. When I was in HS I had 3-4 hours of homework a night, which was not unusual for my school. If I'd had to spend every weekend travelling I would never have been able to keep up. So if you *don't* get a scholarship from playing on one of these teams, you are likely to be screwed since you haven't had enough time to keep your grades up, or enough time to work to save money for college.

This is about the most selfish insanity I have heard in a long time. What if your kids wished you performed poorly at work, or got fired, so that they'd have company at home after school, or wouldn't have to walk home, or put away their laundry?

I love going to my kids' games. The support gives them confidence, on and off the field.

http://likeasinglemom.wordpress.com

Tune in next week to On Parenting, to hear Baltimore11 rail about bad parents whose spoiled children are physically unfit, overweight, or unhealthy; bad parents whose spoiled children have no sense of commitment and have never learned to see anything through; and bad parents whose spoiled children don't know how to work with others or function as part of a team.

Further topics to be announced as necessary.

This is about the most selfish insanity I have heard in a long time. What if your kids wished you performed poorly at work, or got fired, so that they'd have company at home after school, or wouldn't have to walk home, or put away their laundry?

I love going to my kids' games. The support gives them confidence, on and off the field.

I agree, there are suckwad parents out there who would rather go play golf with their knucklehead friends instead of watch their kid score the winning goal. I know several guys who view it as burden and ask me to go with them. I always say no, i spend enough time with knuckleheads at work all week....

Nobody -- BIOYA.

Great post! A couple of character-building losses would make better players out of them.
Happy Holidays,
~Kat~
@katluvsshoes
My Xmas Gift Guide: http://www.shop.com/christmas+beauty+gifts-e.xhtml

ROTLMAO.

floof - middle DD is currently a high school senior; her class was recently given their class rankings for college applications. Of the top 10 percent in the class (35 of 345), 22 are varsity athletes, 18 are in the music (band, orchestra, chorus) or drama programs, and 12 are in both. That means that only 7 out of the 10 percent are not in one of these "time sinks." IMNSHO, performing well at sports, music or both teaches you the discipline and time management you need to succeed in other parts of your life.

(A few of these athletes have won individual state championships, and I think 8 or 10 of them have team state championships under their belts.)

That's not intended as a knock at you at all; if you had that much homework I'm sure you did well at it. Just saying that it's not an "all or nothing" thing; plenty of athletes do very well academically.

pwaa, I'm just curious, how many kids do you have?

army, I did plenty of extracurriculars as well, what I'm talking about are these teams that cause you to travel away from home for entire weekends, which is what these travel teams sound like. Maybe they don't involve as much time as I'm thinking. It sounds like much more work than would be involved in playing a regular varsity sport.

For those of you who say "just don't let them play on the travel team", where do you draw the line as to what sports/activities they can participate in and which ones they can't? Do you not let them do anything that you don't also enjoy?

Dennis, in my case it is about balance and being a family. We are family centered, not child centered. I am happy to support my children in things that they want to pursue, I am not happy to sacrifice the well being and time of all the other members of our family for the singular pursuit of one of its members. I think that is the difference. We all make sacrifices so that each member of the family is able to do things they enjoy and while I don't like baseball, I enjoy watching my son play. I won't make my daughter spend every weekend either without one parent or sitting around watching her brother play baseball nor will I ask the same of her brother. I'm a parent, but I'm not a martyr.

yeah-- what moxie mom said! Enjoy life-- don't be a martyr for your kids. Not healthy for anyone.

Also, off topic to SueMc or other wiccan/pagan folks here - what books (adult or childs) do you recommend for explaining the winter celebrations of your traditions? Thanks.

Posted by: nobodyknowhow | December 11, 2009 11:44 AM

I'm going to start with a web-site recommendation: www.witchvox.com
I used their proprietary search engine, entered the term "Yule" and got over 100 essays. Some were related to other Sabbats and only mentioned Yule in passing, but some were quite good.

If that doesn't wear you out and exhaust your interest, I'd recommend _Eight Sabbats for Witches_ by Janet and Stewart Farrar.

I also noticed that best-selling author Silver Ravenwolf has a book out _A Beginners Guide to the Eight Sabbats_ . Personally, I'm not all that impressed with Ms. Ravenwolf's other books and don't know any Pagans over the age of 18 who are, but she's not completely hopeless (and there are Pagan authors who are horrible - always steer clear of anything with D.J. Conway's name on it!), and Ms. Ravenwolf's books are enormously popular with teens.

Hope that's helpful.

I've never achieved martyrdom, nor is it on my list of things to do. Moxie, I am all about family and I agree that everyone has to sacrifice occassionally and not one kid or parent all the time. All I am saying is when your kid really enjoys a sport, is good at it and the program is right - you might chose a travel team. That's all.

"I've never achieved martyrdom"...

Though it would be quite a feat typing that post from beyond the grave if you had...

Truth be told, I feel dead today, thus the comment :)

"If that doesn't wear you out and exhaust your interest, I'd recommend _Eight Sabbats for Witches_ by Janet and Stewart Farrar."

Oops! I'm sorry. That book is long out of print, and *very* expensive if you can find it at all. Instead, try the Farrar's _Witches Bible Complete_ (or something like that), which is a republication of the earlier book combined with another of their earlier books that I think is also out of print. Anyway, "the complete witches bible" (by whatever the correct title really is) is still in print, so it's at least affordable.

Again, sorry for the mistake.

Today’s coveted Poster of the Day is awarded to nobodyknowhow for their amusing rebuttal to Baltimore11’s make children do chores, don’t be a cab driver blast. Extra credit for their ability to avoid being baited.

LOL Cheeky!

One last word... Just about every parent i've met, though they've signed their kid(s) up for a sport to keep them active and outdoors, is happy to have a practice occasionally rained out. It's something we pray for , like a snowday.

Wacky, Kids are happy to have an occassional night off. Nothing better than having practice cancelled and ordering pizza - ultimate laziness!

Sports are just one more thing to go all-or-nothing with.

How about taking turns car and kid pooling with another sport family, so you're going every other time? Is there an aunt or uncle or babysitter who could take them once in a while?

My kids have dance lessons twice a week and a dozen shows a year. One of these days my behind will permanently take the shape of the chairs at the studio. I usually stick around for the practices, but once a month or so I drop them off and go out for lunch with a friend. So far lightning has not struck and the kids have not been diagnosed with abandonment issues, so I'm going to keep doing it and Not Feel Guilty! Ha ha ha ha ha...

I like DD's dance class... I look up occasionally to see her enjoying pirouetting around, and the rest of the time I read a book or text or organize my calender, etc. I see it as a break for me, as well as a good time for her. But, if she were ice-skating and i were freezing in a cold rink, I'd feel differently!
Who says you have to be watching the game at every second! relax!

I went to my son's basketball practice this past Friday for the 1st time. It's held at an elementary school gym, no chairs, no bench. The parents have a choice if they want to watch their kid play, - either stand up against a wall, or sit on the hard tile floor. Practice lasts 90 minutes. Ouch! I walked out and my ass was numb and my legs were sore. After practice, my son, on the other hand was lathered in sweat and more than happy to do it all over again. Good for him!