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ADL: If mosque-builders really wanted to promote reconcilation, they'd move

Via Steve Benen, I see that Fareed Zakaria has decided to return an award bestowed on him by the Anti-Defamation League in order to protest the organization's deeply misguided opposition to the Islamic center near Ground Zero.

Over at ADL's web site, Abraham Foxman has now responded to Zakaria -- and he now appears to be subtly questioning the motives behind the building of the center.

In renouncing ADL's award, Zakaria wrote that the decision to oppose the Islamic center is "utterly opposed to the animating purpose of your organization," adding: "Your own statements subsequently, asserting that we must honor the feelings of victims even if irrational or bigoted, made matters worse."

To which Foxman responded, in part:

I hope you have read our statement on the proposed Islamic Center at Ground Zero and, more importantly, understand our position. We did not oppose the right for an Islamic Center or a mosque to be built. What we did was to make an appeal based solely on the issues of location and sensitivity. If the stated goal was to advance reconciliation and understanding, we believe taking into consideration the feelings of many victims and their families, of first responders and many New Yorkers, who are not bigots but still feel the pain of 9/11, would go a long way to achieving that reconciliation.

ADL has and will continue to stand up for Muslims and others where they are targets of racism and bigotry, as we have done at the request of and on behalf of Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf.

The "stated" goal, eh? Translation: The best way the builders of the Islamic center can show they're seeking reconciliation, as they claim to be doing, is to move.

This goes considerably further than ADL's initial statement, which didn't question the motives behind the center. In other words, this is no longer just about the feelings of those still wounded by 9/11, as ADL initially claimed.

With this response, ADL has strayed even further from its own stated mission. After all, the group says its "ultimate purpose" is to "put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens." And in his letter to Zakaria, Foxman says ADL will continue to stand up for Muslims who are the targets of "racism and bigotry."

But look, many of those who are insinuating that the Islamic center isn't really about promoting reconciliation are targeting Muslims with bigotry. These folks are the ones who are going beyond saying this is just about respecting 9/11 victims. You've probably seen people calling this the "victory mosque," and so on. Those good people are actively trying to associate all Muslims with the 9/11 attackers. Seems to me ADL is coming perilously close to effectively siding with the bigots here.

UPDATE, 9:26 a.m.: Edited slightly from original, and please consider this an open thread.

By Greg Sargent  |  August 7, 2010; 9:02 AM ET
Categories:  Foreign policy and national security  
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Comments

Fareed pointed it out perfectly when he rhetorically asked "Does Foxman believe that bigotry is OK if people think they're victims? Does the anguish of Palestinians, then, entitle them to be anti-Semitic?"

Certainly the ADL and Foxman would say no as they object to anyone who offers up reasons for objecting to their tribe.

This is naked bigotry. Foxman and the ADL should be ashamed.

Posted by: raincntry | August 7, 2010 9:34 AM | Report abuse

The ADL is a nonprofit org that needs donations. Many of those calling it a 'victory mosque' are more likely to give ADL donations after the 'be sensitive to Sept 11 attack victim family pain and move' change in the the statement. As for defending Muslims facing bigotry and discrimination the ADL was probably silent when Irv Rubin and Earl Krugel were arrested before they could blow up Los Angeles mosques and House Member Darrell Issa's office in 2000. They probably were also silent when Robert Goldstein, a Pinellas County, FL podiatrist, was arrested before he could bomb 50 Muslim community sites in Tampa, FL. Council on American Islamic Relations FL chapter demanded (April 4, 2003 CAIR press release) Robert Goldstein charged as a terrorist under the then-2 year old Patriot Act instead of sentencing him to the maximum federal sentencing guideline in a federal prison mental hospital (June 19, 2003 Reuters).
This demand is probably why CAIR has since been singled out for demonizing and delegitimizing from sites like camera.org and cairwatch.org with guilt by association attacks based on associations with unpopular persons or funding sources.

Posted by: jon4061 | August 7, 2010 9:41 AM | Report abuse

Greg, I'm surprised the Wash Post still lets you write here. The paper has become such a clearing house for neo-con thought that I figured they'd cleaned out the last liberals a while ago.

Thanks for your thoughtful work here. I can't bring myself to read the Washington Post any more because of their right-wing conventional wisdom agenda, but I'll read your column.

Posted by: poperatzo | August 7, 2010 9:41 AM | Report abuse

Do have a look "Drive-by Experts on Islam"

http://www.islamicsolutions.com/drive-by-experts-on-islam/

Posted by: ffa7 | August 7, 2010 9:59 AM | Report abuse

Poperatzo, I couldn't agree more. How did this excellent, thoughtful column get past the army of neocon editors hired by Fred hiatt to publish hasbara from Michael Oren and squelch any alternative voices such as Greg's?!

Meanwhile, Abe Foxman appears to be an unrepentant bigot who keeps digging a bigger hole with his Archie Bunker style justifications. I think the ADL should be sensitized to the Muslim feelings it has hurt with its bigoted, accusatory comments and they should move their headquarters somewhere else. It's not about rights, it's about what's right. LOL!

Posted by: ConscientiousObjector1 | August 7, 2010 10:00 AM | Report abuse

The mosque opponents seem to take it for granted that the victims were all Judeo-Christian, and that Muslims are the terrorist "other." In fact, there were many Muslim-American first-responders, WTC employees and airplane passengers who lost their lives as well. Here's an unofficial list of Muslim victims - http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

Posted by: tomfeeley | August 7, 2010 10:08 AM | Report abuse

I've previously noted a week-old NYT review of two books on Podhoretz. I'm going to excerpt a couple of graphs I think relevant. They follow a brief on Podhoretz's prior period as an intellectual force on the left and then his abrupt and severe shirt to the right:

"How could a once thoughtful man spend the past 40 years transforming himself into a commissar? In his 1979 memoir, “Breaking Ranks,” Podhoretz himself described his initial lurch to the right as a perfectly sensible reaction to the excesses of the counterculture, the rise of a black power movement tainted by anti- Semitism, the descent of the antiwar movement into nihilistic violence and the Democratic Party’s embrace of left-wing isolationism in 1972. Jeffers accepts this account but adds a surprising theological twist, telling us that in February 1970, Podhoretz experienced a mystical vision in the woods of upstate New York that convinced him “Judaism was true.” Jeffers has difficulty explaining precisely what this revelation meant, and how it inspired Podhoretz to change his political views, no doubt in part because it had no discernible effect on his observance of Jewish law and rituals. As Podhoretz himself puts it, he felt it unnecessary, both before and after the vision, “to go to services, eat kosher, all that stuff.”

To grasp the true significance of the vision, the reader must skip ahead about 120 pages in Jeffers’s narrative to a 1985 speech in which Podhoretz spoke of his pride at using Commentary to defend “my own” — “my own country” and “my own people.” In light of these comments, Podhoretz’s revelation appears to mark the moment in his life when he began to “unlearn” what, he said, he had been educated to believe as a liberal — namely, “that it was more honorable and nobler to turn one’s back on one’s own and fight for others and for other things in which one had no personal stake or interest.” Beginning with his vision in the woods, Podhoretz would devote his life to standing up for himself as a Jew and as an American against an ever lengthening list of those he deemed to be mortal enemies."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/books/review/Linker-t.html?ref=bookreviews

This is a very personal account of one man's shift but it is matched in effect or consequence by that of Irving Kristol and an important cadre of the American jewish intellectual/political leadership who became (as they've self-described) the 'neoconservative' camp. Hoffman and the ADL have been along on this move to the right and towards a severe tribalism.

It is an interesting and surely quite complex set of dynamics in play here but we should appreciate that it facilitates a particular relationship with the state of Israel and that in turn facilitates American military and political leverage in the part of the world that contains the greatest and most accessible deposits of oil.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 10:11 AM | Report abuse

I think I'm going to make my comment be about you, too, Greg, because your column is now the first place I go in the morning.

Thanks for both not standing down and not getting all wee-wee'd up like so many other columnists.

Posted by: breakingball | August 7, 2010 10:20 AM | Report abuse

A short ps on the above...

Neoconservativism has been moulded around the ideas of Leo Strauss and many neoconservatives have studied under Strauss or his students. Strauss was a serious Platonist and held that society would be best organized with an educated elite at the very top who would maintain power to mitigate against the vagaries of the whimsical or emotional wishes of uneducated and inferior citizens.

Thus the patently ludicrous plaints from Bill Kristol and other such fellows/fellowesses, raised in privilege and power, on the "elitism" of college professors and news reporters.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 10:23 AM | Report abuse

I am in full agreement with the ADL. And indeed it does have a history of also standing up for the rights of muslims as wells as jews and christians.

I accept their argument 100%. It is a matter of location.

And anyone who has read the Koran more than once, as I have, knows why the muslims are so hot to build right there.

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 10:30 AM | Report abuse

@bonncaruso - And why is that? And what Koranic passages validate your claim?

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 10:35 AM | Report abuse

On another topic... Tomasky on Bob Inglis' experiences with statements from folks in the modern conservative movement...

"But I really can't understand who actually believes these things. I mean, lots of people on the left kinda thought George Bush was dictator-ish and used extreme rhetoric about it. But I don't think any sane person really and truly believed that Bush had a secret plan to make himself the dictator of America. But these people, who are evidently sane, actually believe this about Obama. Dictator. Speechless."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2010/aug/06/barack-obama-tea-party-movement-dictator

Indeed.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 10:37 AM | Report abuse

This is a horrible look for the ADL. What part of "this directly contradicts our name and purpose" is being overlooked?

It's like if the Gay - Straight Alliance Network put out a statement saying "On second thought, gays are kind of icky, and we're pretty 'meh' about this whole equal rights thing."

I've noticed that the right - wing talking points on the mosque are stubbornly (shocker) set on perma - bull.

FOX is extremely popular where I live (pretty much Glenn Beck fan club central -- he's from a similar place nearby), and I've been confronted with numerous claims that Feisal Abdul Rauf is a major proponent of stoning women. If that were true, of course, progressives would be vehemently condemning him at every turn.

It's interesting how strongly supporting reproductive rights and calling Phyllis Schlafly a "deeply immoral regressive nutjob with repulsive views" means that I've been "brainwashed" by "Feminazis" and "radical man - haters," but not going along with a smear about one of the people involved with building the Mosque means that I'm "soft on standing up for women."

Pretzel logic is Wingnutia's top export.

Posted by: michael_conrad | August 7, 2010 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Excellent post Greg. Keep up the fight against bigots, which ironically ADL seems to have become, at least in this case.

Posted by: amkeew | August 7, 2010 10:43 AM | Report abuse

Must run. I expect, when this comment gets linked around today and tomorrow, that it just might be a zoo in here. It's a good topic, Greg, and your stance is courageous. Thanks.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 10:47 AM | Report abuse

Thus the patently ludicrous plaints from Bill Kristol and other such fellows/fellowesses, raised in privilege and power, on the "elitism" of college professors and news reporters.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 10:23 AM |
===============================

This is a technique in use by the GOBP generally:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Plain_folks

=># What are the propagandist's ideas worth when divorced from his or her personality?
# What could he or she be trying to cover up with the plain-folks approach?
# What are the facts<=
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | August 7, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

bernielatham:

"@bonncaruso - And why is that? And what Koranic passages validate your claim?"

Well, for starters:

"Fight and slay the pagans [Christians] wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)

4:95-96 Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath God promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward: Ranks specially bestowed by Him, and Forgiveness and Mercy. For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

8:12-15 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against God and His Apostle: If any contend against God and His Apostle, God is strict in punishment. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist God, is the penalty of the Fire." O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

8:37-39: In order that God may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (trick in war for deceiving and outwitting the enemy); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

----------------------

And that is just the beginning, only out of the Kuran. There is lots lots more, a great deal from Hadith.

Need more?

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:00 AM | Report abuse

And here from Hadith:

# Hadith 1:13-- "I have been ordered by Allah to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah."

# Hadith 1.24 "Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers"

# Hadith 1.25"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

# Hadith 19:4294 "Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war."

# Hadith 1:35 "The person who participates in Allah's cause (namely, in battle). . will be recompensed by Allah either with reward or booty or will be admitted to Paradise."

# Hadith 9:4 "Wherever you find infidels kill them; for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."

# Hadith 9:50, 57 "No Umma (a member of Muslim community) should be killed for killing a Kafir (an infidel). . Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him."

# Sahih Muslim 4363: "You (the Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle and I wish to expel you from this land (Arabia)

# Sahih Muslim 4366 Narrated by Umar ibn al-Khattab. Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.


Need more?

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:02 AM | Report abuse

From islamic world leaders:

"Those who know nothing about Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those people are witless. Islam says: 'Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!' Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by the infidel? Islam says: 'Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter them.' Islam says: 'Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword.' The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim." (Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini)

"In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or force. The other religious groups (Christianity and Judaism) did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defense. (Ibn Khaldun, The Muqadimmah: Ail Introduction to History, Islamic historian, 1377 AD)

"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males to prepare themselves for the conquest of countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world." Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Iranian Shiite mullah)

"the religion of Islam could be above all, so that all areas of life could be guided by Islam, and so that the earth could be cleansed from unbelief" (The Islamic Council in Chechnya)

"The foremost duty of Islam is to depose the government and society of unbelievers (jahiliyyah) from the leadership of man." (Sayyid Qutb, Egyptian)

----------------------
more to come...

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:04 AM | Report abuse

more from islamic world leaders:

"Uniting the five pillars of Islam is the principle Jihad (lit. struggle). In Islam a Muslim must struggle against himself and his habits to submit fully to God. He must also struggle to guide his family, relatives, and friends to bring them to Islam and to convey the message of Islam itself. Since Islam is totalistic, Muslims wherever they may be, must struggle and sacrifice their energy, time, and material resources to establish Muslim congregations, mosques, madrassas (religious schools) for the maintenance and spread of Islam. Where Muslims make up a substantial fraction of the population, they must struggle to establish the Islamic Shariah (law) as their rule for living, with the aim to ultimately establish a full Islamic state in which Islam would be the ruling ideology and system. To understand this last point is very important for it is part and parcel of Islam to seek its full manifestation and where Muslims fail politically or economically, they also fail spiritually. It is innate to Islam to be militantly uncompromising with alien systems since all sovereignty and glory belongs to God, to the Prophets (PBUH) and to the believers." (Spirit of Toronto, Ontario, Canada: 1834-1984, Lindsay Holton, 1983 AD, Foreword by David Crombie, MP: Secretary of State and Minister of Multiculturalism, Isla

------------

Oh, and for good measure:

"Sura 9:3: “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Lost in this although another commenter pointed it out, a lot of Muslims were direct victims of 9/11 too -- indeed indirectly the whole Muslim world suffered a terrible blow to its reputation that day, at the hands of a few fanatics. It's as if David Koresh got to decide how Christianity is viewed on the world stage, or for that matter, Yitzhak Rabin's assassin re Judaism. No one would hold the ADL accountable for that act of violence, and good Muslims should be similarly exempt. Please let's not let the terrorists win by turning on each other!

Posted by: wial | August 7, 2010 11:08 AM | Report abuse

"more to come"

Oh, noez. I bet you see a muslin terrist under your bed everynight.

Posted by: amkeew | August 7, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

wial has a valid point and I accept it, however, statistically, muslims were the smallest group of individuals to suffer a terrible blow.

And not only that, polling in the islamic world (yes, they do polling, and often) showed OVERWHELMING support of El Quaida, Bin Laden and Co.

I am turning on no-one, but I did quote the Kuran and Hadith quite exactly. These are the official english translations, everyone can download them to read them for themselves.

I did not say those horrible things that islamic "world" leaders said. THEY did it.

Please remember this.

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Here, I won't spam the thread like bonncaruso is doing, read for yourself:

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Violence_and_God.htm

~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | August 7, 2010 11:12 AM | Report abuse

And here are two chestnuts that are preached virtually every Friday in the mosques of Palestine:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

-------------------

Again, not my words, words directly out of Hadith.

And no, I do not see terrorists under my bed and the likelihood is that I have daily contact with more muslims than you, amkeew, will have in your entire life. And we often have discussions over this. My muslim friends agree with me that these passages are often spoken during prayer services in Germany, and quite often. Some are very disturbed by the content of said suraah or quotes from Hadith, but are afraid to speak too loudly about it, for fear of retribution from more hard-core muslims.

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:16 AM | Report abuse

Salon.com

Points out that there is already a Mosque in the Pentagon.


"Why did no one object to the "Pentagon mosque"?"

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2010/08/05/muslims_infiltrate_pentagon


" Navy imam Chaplain Abuhena M. Saifulislam lifted his voice to God as he called to prayer more than 100 Department of Defense employees Monday at a celebration of Ramadan at the Pentagon.

God is most great, sang the lieutenant commander and Islamic leader, in Arabic, as iftar — the end of the daily fast began.

Uniformed military personnel, civilians and family members faced Mecca and knelt on adorned prayer rugs chanting their prayers in quiet invocation to Allah.

The "ground zero mosque" story seems to be dying down, but nothing lays bare the absurdity of what we've just lived through quite so much as this Washington Times story, quoted above, from 2007.

Yes, Muslims have infiltrated the Pentagon for their nefarious, prayerful purposes -- daring to practice their religion inside the building where 184 people died on Sept. 11, 2001. They haven't even had the sensitivity to move two blocks, let alone a mile, away from that sacred site."

.........

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 11:21 AM | Report abuse

"I am in full agreement with the ADL."

Two blocks away? Do you have any idea how many different activities are present within two blocks of Ground Zero?

If you are that worried about Muslims you aren't really any different than the Birchers panicking over the commies back in the 1950's.

That didn't reflect what the United States of America is about anymore than does Sarah Palin's demagoguery.

It's a disgusting stance and will be condemned in the years to come as yet another disgusting display of McCarthyism.

Posted by: akaoddjob | August 7, 2010 11:21 AM | Report abuse

ADL now means: Abe's Defamation League!

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 11:23 AM | Report abuse

John Cole chimes in, agreeing with Greg, and adding another idiotic statement from another group who ought to know better:

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/08/07/the-adl-doubles-down/

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 7, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

Reality Check;

The Pentagon was attacked on 9/11 and yet they have not objected to having a Mosque inside The Pentagon.

What does ADL (Abe's Defamation League) have to say about that?


Salon.com

Points out that there is already a Mosque in the Pentagon.


"Why did no one object to the "Pentagon mosque"?"

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2010/08/05/muslims_infiltrate_pentagon


" Navy imam Chaplain Abuhena M. Saifulislam lifted his voice to God as he called to prayer more than 100 Department of Defense employees Monday at a celebration of Ramadan at the Pentagon.

God is most great, sang the lieutenant commander and Islamic leader, in Arabic, as iftar — the end of the daily fast began.

Uniformed military personnel, civilians and family members faced Mecca and knelt on adorned prayer rugs chanting their prayers in quiet invocation to Allah.

The "ground zero mosque" story seems to be dying down, but nothing lays bare the absurdity of what we've just lived through quite so much as this Washington Times story, quoted above, from 2007.

Yes, Muslims have infiltrated the Pentagon for their nefarious, prayerful purposes -- daring to practice their religion inside the building where 184 people died on Sept. 11, 2001. They haven't even had the sensitivity to move two blocks, let alone a mile, away from that sacred site."

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

" I have daily contact with more muslims " - Is it like "I have black friends too" pitch ?

Posted by: amkeew | August 7, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

amkeew: No, I truly have contact each day with many, many moslems, including colleagues and friends.

And I have a slew of black and brown and yellow friends and we all get along quite famously.

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:33 AM | Report abuse

And I am aware that there is a mosque in the Pentagon, has been there for years. It was, however, built under completely different auspices.

So, there is no quid-pro-quo here.

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Some of his best friends come from the groups that he despises, and discriminates against!!!!

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 11:37 AM | Report abuse

Time for the Pentagon to move a few blocks away from that Mosque, in order to show the proper sensitivity.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 11:41 AM | Report abuse

Good job of cherry-picking medieval texts, bonncaruso.

I could counter with similar texts from bot the Old and New Testaments, as well as "direct quotes" from Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisitors, but I won't.

You are a racist, hate-filled Islamophobe, clear and simple. Just go put on your Crusader gear, hold your cross firmly in one hand and your sword in the other and have at it.

But leave me and my NYC out of it, you unrepentant idiot bigot.

Posted by: Wellstone | August 7, 2010 11:41 AM | Report abuse

As a matter of fact, directly after 9-11, I did the memorial service for the dead in the city of Dessau in conjunction with the manager of the famous "Bauhaus" - a muslim. He and I did it together and the hug between us was called in the german press "the hug seen around the world" "symbolträchtige Umarmung".

There is no one that I despise, but I strongly disagree with the building of the mosque at this location. It is possible to disagree without hating. Think about it, Liam!

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:42 AM | Report abuse

I am not a bigot, certainly not an idiot, and it is interesting that I have printed factual material here and others have only cursed.

So, who is using reason here and who is not?

Fascinating.

And has anyone asked why they have decided to call it the "Cordoba House"? How many here know the history of the beautiful Cordoba mosque, which was the third largest in the world? I would be curious to hear how many of you know WHY the name is wished.

tick tock tick tock.

And Wellstone, 60% of NYC disagrees with you. You are in the minority. They are in the majority. Think about it.

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:48 AM | Report abuse

He is not a bigot, because he says he only hates those that he has decided to hate.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 11:49 AM | Report abuse

oh, yes, it's 'I have black friends too' pitch alright. Good luck with that.

Posted by: amkeew | August 7, 2010 11:52 AM | Report abuse

ADL Position:

Since some Muslims killed people on 9/11, all Muslims must be excluded.


KKK Position:

Since some Jews killed Jesus, all Jews must be excluded.

Abe Foxman has just morphed into a Grand Wizard.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 11:54 AM | Report abuse

I just telephoned with a good friend of mine, named Dursun Utku (turkish). "Dursun", btw, means "please stop" - he is the 11th of 11 children in his family. :) :) No kidding.

I mentioned the mosque to him. Dursun and I are good friends since 1997 - he said to me: "I knew 3 days after 911 that one day, we would try to build as close to the impact site as possible." I asked him why and he said in one word in German: "Siegermentalität" (Victor Mentality).

I remember him telling this to me on the phone maybe a month after 911, while I was on tour in Japan in October and November 2001, and I laughed at him then. Just now in my conversation with him I was reminded of this.

And he finds the use of the word Cordoba not funny at all. He, as a muslim, is disturbed by this choice. Cordoba was a word used to describe the entire Caliphate that took up the Iberian peninsula of Europe (Spain, Portugal, part of France)

Out of complete fairness, Cordoba has a very mixed history: for instance, the grand Calif of Cordoba in the late 900s (Al Hakim II) and his father (I forget his name) was at that time very good to the jewish community. The great father of modern jewish thought, Maimonides, grew up in this environment. I want to note this here and now. However, the jizjah (head tax) was extreme,and a burden. And christians were persecuted to no end in 4 periods, under 4 different Calipha.

Dursun thinks that the whole thing is a terrible idea. And he is a muslim.

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

You should have asked how he felt about the Italian Crime Families being celebrated on shows such as The Sopranos etc. after the Italian Mafia killed thousands of New Yorkers, and if all Italians should be banned from having Catholic Churches in New York.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 12:06 PM | Report abuse

The United States of America is legally prohibited from discriminating on the basis of religion, and that is consistent with its own legal history and its intellectual legacy to the world.

To panic over the intentions of "the other" is not consistent with that history, regardless of how that does or does not appear to a Muslim living in Germany.

Posted by: akaoddjob | August 7, 2010 12:12 PM | Report abuse

Oh, Liam, oh Liam, it was and never will be a quid-pro-quo.

Tja, I have expressed my view. That is the beauty of America, a land that I cherish. As do you.

Peace to you.

-Mark

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 12:13 PM | Report abuse

He "just got off the phone"

"His good friend since 1997"

Strange how "his good friend" never told him about what he knew, within three days after 9/11, what would happen, until just know, when the "I am not a bigot" called his good friend.

It never came out in all their previous "good friend" chats, when the 9/11 atrocity was a red hot topic everywhere.

Hmmmmm!

Me thinks the bigot just called up him imaginary friend, and his imaginary friend told him; your bigotry is perfectly justified. You are what is known as: the just bigot.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 12:13 PM | Report abuse

wingnutz' fantasy world and fantasy friend are bizarro.

One more troll to go zzzzzz.

Posted by: amkeew | August 7, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

As a Jew, I have never felt less proud of my religion than when I was working for the ADL.

I quit my contract job with the ADL four years ago because of their bias against the Muslim community. I was hired to teach a diversity and anti-bias curriculum to teachers, students, and staff at public and private schools. We dealt with "isms", discrimination, and bias: transgender discrimination, ableism, racism, anti-semitism, size discrimination, ageism. You name an ism or bias and we educated people about it, except for when it came to Muslims and Palestinians.

I brought this up to my supervisors but they refused to give me a straight answer addressing this glaring omission in our work. I began to read between the lines. Did they come out and say 'Screw Muslims, we're a Jewish organization founded by B'nai B'rith and we don't give a damn if Palestinians aren't getting fair treatment by our community?' No. But it certainly was implied via their lack of regard and concern, and is overtly seen in Abe Foxman's horrifying pubic statements over the past few years.

I cannot decide which is more disgusting in Abe Foxman's response to the proposed mosque - his hatred and bias against the Muslim community or his offensive way of pretending to defend religious freedom by packaging up his views into a twisted and insulting form of compassion for the victims of 9/11.

Posted by: KairolRosenthal | August 7, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Liar's poker. Who blinks?

There are moments when I try to agree with Bloomberg and there are moments when all I can remember is the sound of bodies hitting the street, the sirens, the smoke and dust, and Muslim nations celebrating like those Somalians dancing on a downed Black Hawk chopper, dragging a dead American around by his feet.
My darker side wants "good" Muslims to take on the "bad" Muslims and wipe them out. Why should we do it? What did revenge get us? If the Nation of Islam is so committed to brotherhood and co-existence, send their millions to Afghanistan and Pakistan and eliminate the Taliban, protect the civilian population, and ensure proper government, women's and student's rights, and build nations the world will recognize. Don't tell me that Muslims abhor violence and resist aggression. If their cause is so just, their intentions are so honorable, and the commitment is heartfelt, show the world that they will not allow their "bad" side to override their skeptics and our stereotyping.

Then they can build a learning center in NYC near the United Nations Plaza.

Posted by: kickoradell | August 7, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

A Muslim Canadian perspective in Ottawa Citizen:

Mischief in Manhattan
We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation. It's an act of "fitna"

Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah
The Ottawa Citizen

Last week, a journalist who writes for the North Country Times, a small newspaper in Southern California, sent us an e-mail titled "Help." He couldn't understand why an Islamic Centre in an area where Adam Gadahn, Osama bin Laden's American spokesman came from, and that was home to three of the 911 terrorists, was looking to expand.

The man has a very valid point, which leads to the ongoing debate about building a Mosque at Ground Zero in New York. When we try to understand the reasoning behind building a mosque at the epicentre of the worst-ever attack on the U.S., we wonder why its proponents don't build a monument to those who died in the attack?

New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact is we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the "infidel." The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.

The Koran commands Muslims to, "Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book" -- i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of "fitna"

So what gives Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the "Cordoba Initiative" and his cohorts the misplaced idea that they will increase tolerance for Muslims by brazenly displaying their own intolerance in this case?

Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?

There are many questions that we would like to ask. Questions about where the funding is coming from? If this mosque is being funded by Saudi sources, then it is an even bigger slap in the face of Americans, as nine of the jihadis in the Twin Tower calamity were Saudis.

[To read the full article critical of the 9/11 Mosque, click this link below:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html ]

Posted by: tarekfatah | August 7, 2010 12:47 PM | Report abuse

bernielatham very insightful. Thread posters deserve credit where it's due.

Posted by: undisclosedangler | August 7, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

Typical Republican response, tell the other guy he needs to do exactly what I'm not doing...

Blame Obama for the deficit then say, "lets cut taxes and increase the deficit. Tax cut don't need to be paid for".

Now they are saying, "you can promote reconciliation if you do what I want but I won't make an attempt to meet you half way".

Isn't this like the HCR debate when Cantor would say, "if the Democrats want bipartisan legislation all they have to do is scrap their government take over and support our common sense solutions".

Posted by: soapm | August 7, 2010 12:56 PM | Report abuse

Jeex, Greg. Are you still flogging this poor dead horse? You should take the weekend off. It's August, you know. Last chance you'll get before November.

Posted by: CalD | August 7, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

Imam Rauf's own book ~ the Arabic translation ~ is entitled “The Call From the WTC Rubble: Islamic Da’wah From the Heart of America Post-9/11”

This guy is specifically using the 9/11 tragedy to spread his religion ~ [Da'wa being Islamic teaching ~ from the 'rubble' of WTC] ~ given the other things he has stated about 9/11 being a US conspiracy against Islam perpetrated by the US to discredit Islam ~ the mosque in this place with the name Cordoba [a name associated with Muslim conquest] ~ would seem to be a victory mosque!!

Holier than thou doesn't work!! The everybody who doesn't agree with me is a bigot ~ approach!!

Let him build his mosque ~ though that it is seen as tasteless and insensitive ~ won't go away that easily.

Posted by: roxn | August 7, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Say, NYC blinks. It's impossible to imagine that the center will be built. Think about it. What labor force is going to hire on to build it? The unions? The Mob is going to stand aside, in the name of profit and graft, to allow Muslims to build their center? Really?

Catholics vs. Islamists? That could leave a mark. Want to be a fly on the wall of those negotiations?

Crane operators, plumbers, steam and pipe fitters, masons, steelworkers, electricians, carpenters, drywallers, laborers, no-show-job-guys, engineers, inspectors, welders, supervisors....what unions don't I have there?

What country produces the iron and steel? Who transports it? Who staffs the office trailers? Who gets the security gig?

How about traffic and patrol? Soooo many Irish and Italian police. God vs. Allah.
When the picket lines go up, who crosses and who protects them? Greed and graft vs. Sensitivity and patriotism.

Hollywood and HBO must be drooling. The Gangs of New York said it: There will be blood.

Posted by: kickoradell | August 7, 2010 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Zakaria - congratulations. You speak the truth.

Posted by: rbaldwin2 | August 7, 2010 1:49 PM | Report abuse

Most New Yorkers are against it. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/New-York ers-Oppose-Ground-Zero-Mosque-Poll-97602569.html

New Yorkers are generally not the part of the Glen Beck crowd. They are probably the least xenophobic people out there.

Ask yourself what this mosque could possibly accomplish.

Is the mosque going to change the minds of terrorists and muslims who hate us? Are they going to say "oh, gee these guys are all right after all." Of course not.

Is the mosque going to change the mind of some gun-toting christian? of course not.

Does anyone really imagine this center to "promote understanding" will be anything more than just a litany of the grievances Muslims have with the rest of the world?

All the mosque will do is inflame passions. Lots of protests.

While this is a cause celebre of the Left, New Yorkers have to live with it.

Oh well, this will be tied up in litigation forever. There will be an endless supply of lawsuits from people who hate the idea of a victory mosque at Ground Zero.

Posted by: sold2u | August 7, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

If we catered to what most locals want, the South would still own slaves.

What "most locals want", is just another way to excuse bigotry, and a way to cater to the irrational fears of the "bed wetters" who live in constant dread, of one thing or another.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 2:26 PM | Report abuse

Christians did not rush in to build churches near former Jewish death camps claiming not all Christians were Nazis and this is a good thing to do.Even the former Nazis did not not rush to build churches near Jewish death camp sites.

So when even former Nazis showed more sensitivity than what is being shown now by the Islamic community in the USA, one is clearly forced to ask "Just how much does the Islamic community of the USA see the families of the victims as real human beings and their suffering worth any consideration?"

Posted by: Elisa2 | August 7, 2010 2:40 PM | Report abuse

Islam does not play well with others. (Spare me the "but the crusades..." argument. Ancient History)

The purpose of this mosque is to declare victory. No doubt about it. To promote understanding = complain about how you guys dislike us. People will become more understanding when they learn to co-exist without killing innocents.


As someone pointed out above, they are going to have to bribe a ton of people to get this built. They will be fighting lawsuits for years. This will be the most expensive mosque on the planet. Clearly this is not a business decision.

Screw 'em. Let them build their victory mosque somewhere else. How about Queens where all the cabbies live anyway?

Posted by: sold2u | August 7, 2010 2:49 PM | Report abuse

@bonncaruso

The builders of the Cordoba House have owned the property for 30 years. It is not viewable from Ground Zero. The proposed structure will face the other way.

I see no reason why they shouldn't build their center.

Posted by: msmollyg | August 7, 2010 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Sounds like the Iraqi people could use that argument to get rid of that massive new American Embassy. After all the USA did invade, and occupy that mostly Muslim country, which led to the slaughter of a very large number of Muslims.

Of course the USA also overthrew the elected government of Iran, and installed the Shah dictator.

In recent history, it has been the USA who has been the invader, not the other way around.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 7, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

I don't understand the reasoning behind this post. Nowhere in the published excerpt from Foxman's letter to Zakharia does it ever question the motives behind the Islamic center. Quite the contrary - it assumes the stated premise of promoting reconciliation and understanding, and then suggests a different course of action to achieve that goal. Whether you agree with the ADL's conclusions is another matter, of course.

Posted by: simpleton1 | August 7, 2010 3:08 PM | Report abuse

amkeew: No, I truly have contact each day with many, many moslems, including colleagues and friends.

Posted by: bonncaruso | August 7, 2010 11:33 AM | Report abuse

---

Given your stated deep animus against Muslims, I'm surprised that you'd befriend those whom you disdain. I doubt you'd want to befriend anyone who took the time to dig up inflammatory remarks about Christians (or whatever you are).

Is not all of Manhattan sacred ground? The ADL could be helpful by drawing a No Muslims zone so that future centers could be sensitively located. Perhaps we should expel all Muslims to, say, Queens or Staten Island.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | August 7, 2010 3:38 PM | Report abuse

The commenters who support the ADL on this issue forget (or never knew) that roughly 50 Muslims were killed at Ground Zero. They also forget that it is Osama bin Laden who wants to pretend that the "war on terror" is a war between the West and all 1.5 billion or so Muslims. They also overlook the fact that there are already mosques in that part of Manhattan, serving the large number of local Muslim residents.

Posted by: JoeBuck1 | August 7, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

sold2u, apparently you don't understand that you don't live by American values, but rather by those of America's enemies.

Posted by: akaoddjob | August 7, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse

Since 9/11 we as a nation have done everything possible to assure the viability of Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. We tortured Muslims. We denied all legal rights to Muslim suspects. We invaded a Muslim country under false pretenses, thereby undermining the war we had initiated in yet another Muslim country. We persist in blind allegiance to Israel even when it is clearly against our national interest. This is yet another example.

At some point we really should learn that betraying our ideals is not merely losing the war ultimately but it also hastens our defeat as a tactical matter. I, for one, will be proud to live in a United States that permits a mosque on the site of 9/11. It will be a symbol of what makes America great: not hatred, not fear but hopefulness and dedication to freedom.

There is something we can learn about ourselves from al Qaeda: We have a sick culture where many of our people search in vain for meaning beyond materialism and consumption. Instead of reflecting on our national self we have furiously lashed out for 9 years. It is that more than anything that feeds al Qaeda's strength today.

Posted by: wbgonne | August 7, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse

It's also interesting that taking issue with Angle for refusing to take money from corporations who support equal rights for gays is criticizing her for being "too Christian."

I didn't write that. You just made that up out of whole cloth. I was referring to the collection of stories I've seen popping up all week. Michael Blood, Ralston, then they spread to all the lefty blogs and multiply. You know exactly what I'm talking about so don't pretend you don't.

Posted by: Truthteller12 | August 7, 2010 5:03 PM | Report abuse

Sorry akaoddjob, I just don't consider political correctness to be the barometer of how "American" one's values are.

I just don't think the marginal benefit of having a victory mosque at ground zero (is it going to change ANY minds? Of course not) outweighs the negatives.

No one is saying they can't build a mosque. Just not at ground zero. That is not religious persecution.

Posted by: sold2u | August 7, 2010 5:05 PM | Report abuse

The truly sad part is that neither the Muslim leaders nor the Washington Post have the guts to tell us the truth — h/News/Y2010/0803-Fear.html

Enver Masud
Founder, The Wisdom Fund
twf.org

Posted by: twforg | August 7, 2010 5:22 PM | Report abuse

CORRECTION:

The truly sad part is that neither the Muslim leaders nor the Washington Post have the guts to tell us the truth — http://www.twf.org/News/Y2010/0803-Fear.html

Enver Masud
Founder, The Wisdom Fund
twf.org

Posted by: twforg | August 7, 2010 5:23 PM | Report abuse

"I just don't think the marginal benefit of having a victory mosque at ground zero (is it going to change ANY minds? Of course not) outweighs the negatives. "

Good grief...for the eleventy billionth time: it's not a "mosque" and it's NOT at ground zero.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 5:26 PM | Report abuse

For an interpretation not skewed by Newt and others on the right or left depicting the Cordoba House as some sort of victory lap, please read the history itself. The original victory was one over other Muslims and they purchased the Christian church approximately 50 years after the conquest, and the mosque was built by Christians and Muslims together while the original church was built on the outskirts of town.

Our country was founded on religious freedom and freedom from persecution. We haven't always lived up to our ideals and it appears we've entering the Dark Ages over the last 9 years. I believe that many of our actions will be considered shameful by future generations. I hope my children will pass on to their children, and those who come after, that our household did not participate in or approve of the discrimination against anyone, but in particular as we've seen recently, Hispanics, Muslims or our gay brothers and sisters.

"So it's easy to see why a group of Muslims creating a community center in the heart of a majority Christian country in a city known for its large Jewish population might name it "The Cordoba House" They're not, as Gingrich hopes we would believe, discreetly laughing at us because "Cordoba" is some double-secret Islamist code for "conquest"; rather, they're hoping to associate themselves with a particular time in medieval history when the largest library in Western Europe was to be found in Cordoba, a city in which scholars of all three major Abrahamic religions were free to study side-by-side."

http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010/08/professor-newts-distorted-history.html

Posted by: lmsinca | August 7, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

Return Muslim-occupied Cyprus and the Hostage Ghost City of Famagusta (home of the desecrated St. Nicholas Cathedral)— then Islamo-supremacists of Cordoba House (and their Leftist-fascist allies at CNN and WaPo) can howl about their alleged “right” to desecrate Ground Zero.

St. Nicholas called— he’d like his cathedral back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nicholas_Cathedral_Of_Cyprus

VIDEO: Famagusta, The Hostage Ghost City of Europe @
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcfBJ7DimB8

Don't be a sniveling Islamo-supremacism advocate your whole life, Fareed.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 5:33 PM | Report abuse

Leftist-fascists in NYC agencies don't hesitate to obstruct construction of houses of worship -- at least non-Islamic ones. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/nine-years-later-church-at-ground-zero-still-not-rebuilt-but-mad-rush-to-build-islamic-supremacist-m.html

These Leftist reprobates would sell your Catholic mother's grave to support a scatologists right to squat and plop a steaming pile of free expression.

But when patriotic Americans object to jihadists opening a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium (and recruitment center) on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero-- Leftists shriek with indignation!

"Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!" [Matthew 23:24]

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 5:35 PM | Report abuse

Quislings don’t confront real evil; and hate those who do. You can see this on almost any school playground. The kid who confronts the school bully is often resented more than the bully. Whether out of guilt over their own cowardice or out of fear that the one who confronted the bully will provoke the bully to lash out more, those who refuse to confront the bully often resent the one who does.

Today, Leftist-Quislings express that cowardly contempt for those of us who take a hard line with Cordoba House. It’s ever our fault (you see) for provoking these bully. Better to remain supine while the sharia law advocates satisfy themselves raising money for terrorists; tormenting American widows and orphans at Ground Zero; erecting their monument to Islamo-triumphalism.

The Quisling answer: Just attack patriotic Americans as "bigots" (ad hominem) and hope the crocs eat them last.

There’s a word for that, Greg: Cowardice.

Own it, Quisling.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 5:38 PM | Report abuse

@ kickoradell | August 7, 2010 1:36

"Say, NYC blinks."

I'm gonna go with not blinking:

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/08/bloomberg-stands-up-for-mosque.html

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/mayor_to_mosque_foes_shut_up_already_88RNBXhPqZa2mTlERJGdzN

What are we, Fox News now? OK, so maybe there's no *actual* possibility that the city of New York might try and block the center and no other authority that could reasonably/legally try and claim jurisdiction in the matter, but the question still needs to be asked?

Face it. The good guys won this one. I know it's a tough concept for people conditioned to a life of victimhood by a decade of George W. Bush, Tom Delay, Trent Lott and Bill Frist, et al, to get their arms around but it does happen. You're selling past the close. I guess some people just can't take yes for an answer.

Posted by: CalD | August 7, 2010 5:43 PM | Report abuse

Sheesh. Here we go again. The only way to prove Americans aren't bigots is to support neo-pagan demands to build Crann Tara monuments next to MLK memorials.

The only way to prove we're not terrified of communists is to support Marxist demands to build statues of Stalin next to the Lincoln Memorial.

This Leftist submissiveness to Imam Rauf's demands sends the message that Leftists are Quislings and cowards. Are Leftist idiotarians prepared to let Cordoba House intellectually bully into accepting the false assertion that Imam Rauf's sharia law advocacy is (somehow) representative of all Muslims?

/absurdity on stilts

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 5:46 PM | Report abuse

"There’s a word for that, Greg: Cowardice."

From the WATB who's afraid of a community center with a swimming pool. Do you think our country's so weak - that our ideals are so hollow - that they can't withstand the construction of a Muslim version of the YMCA?

Why don't you put your big boy pants on and stand behind the ideals embodied in the Constitution (that you supposedly cherish so much) - instead of running away screaming in terror the first time some brown person says "Boo!"?

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 5:51 PM | Report abuse

If they wanted to promote reconciliation, the building would not contain a mosque but would be open to people of all faiths including muslims.

The 9/11 attacks were not caused by people who happened to be muslims; they were caused by muslims qua muslims. Islamic suicide attacks are not caused by rogue individuals but by real muslims, ie faithful muslims who are acting in accordance with the only tenable interpretation of their religion.

Posted by: RevoEmag | August 7, 2010 6:02 PM | Report abuse

@schrodingerscat: This isn't a proposed YMCA. Patriotic Americans object to stealth jihadists-- and (yes) that accurately describes the Cordoba House cabal-- opening a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium (and jihadi recruitment center) on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero.

American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for secular Americans (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Cordoba House jihadists than insincere bromides and disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia law, as practiced by the Cordoba House cabal and their financial sponsors.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI_Blog/21/The-St-Petersburg-Declaration

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of the sharia law vendors of Cordoba House supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists-- but don’t hold your breath.

"Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!" [Matthew 23:24]

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 6:07 PM | Report abuse

if they end up building it, how long before someone opens a bar next door called "guantanamo?"

Posted by: sold2u | August 7, 2010 6:10 PM | Report abuse

"If they wanted to promote reconciliation, the building would not contain a mosque but would be open to people of all faiths including muslims."

You people need to stop getting your news from FOX:

"The center will be community-driven, serving as a platform for inter-community gatherings and cooperation at all levels, providing a space for all New Yorkers to enjoy."

What part of "all New Yorkers" is confusing to you?

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 6:36 PM | Report abuse

@bonncaruso - As another noted above, one can find passages from Hebrew and Christian texts which reflect the barbarity and murderous tribalisms of the eras when they were composed or assembled. I could be, following your lead, justified in demanding the removal of a church in my city for the biblical allowance to sell one's daughter into slavery or for its restrictions on contact with women who are menstruating. And that's the mild stuff. Much worse is to be found:

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

And re the other posters who we knew would appear to carry forward the religious bigotry du jour - not much to say to you.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse

I do find it fascinating that this became a cause celebre of the religion-hating far left.

Posted by: sold2u | August 7, 2010 6:50 PM | Report abuse

"This isn't a proposed YMCA. Patriotic Americans object to stealth jihadists-- and (yes) that accurately describes the Cordoba House cabal"

Wow...that's convenient. No sign of evident extremism? That's because they're "stealth jihadists". Oooooh.....scary.

Fifty yrs ago you would've been standing proudly behind McCarthy yelling about how communists were hiding everywhere. If you on the right have no one to demonize, you can't survive.....you live and breathe it.

Feel free to keep posting your rantings, though. Your unique combination of paranoia and hyperbole is at least good for some entertainment.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 6:55 PM | Report abuse

"I do find it fascinating that this became a cause celebre of the religion-hating far left. "

Really? 'Cuz I'm not the least bit surprised that this became a cause celebre of the constitution-hating, bigoted, far right.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 7:07 PM | Report abuse

@schrodinger_scat: Is Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf lying to the American public and his fellow New Yorkers?

Pajamas Media has uncovered extraordinary contradictions between what he says in English and what he says in Arabic that raise serious questions about his true intentions in the construction of the mosque.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/ground-zero-imam-i-dont-believe-in-religious-dialogue/?singlepage=true

In his interview on Hadiyul-Islam by Sa’da Abdul Maksoud, Abdul Rauf was asked his views on Sharia (Islamic religious law) and the Islamic state. He responded:

"Throughout my discussions with contemporary Muslim theologians, it is clear an Islamic state can be established in more than just a single form or mold. It can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of Sharia that are required to govern. It is known that there are sets of standards that are accepted by [Muslim] scholars to organize the relationships between government and the governed."

When questioned about this, Abdul Rauf continued: “Current governments are unjust and do not follow Islamic laws.” He added:

New laws were permitted after the death of Muhammad, so long of course that these laws do not contradict the Quran or the Deeds of Muhammad … so they create institutions that assure no conflicts with Sharia. [emphasis in translation]

In yet plainer English, forget the separation of church and state. Abdul Rauf’s goal is the imposition of Shariah law — in every country, even democratic ones like the U.S.

Don't be a naive apologist for apartheid Islamo-supremacists your whole life, Scat.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 7:10 PM | Report abuse

"I do find it fascinating that this became a cause celebre of the religion-hating far left. "

"Really? 'Cuz I'm not the least bit surprised that this became a cause celebre of the constitution-hating, bigoted, far right."

I guess it makes sense. If someone like Newt Gingrich dislikes it, it must be ok. If you are a Muslim, well, I understand. If you are a white progressive, i find it interesting that you stick up for a religion that goes diametrically against everything you stand for. The enemy of your enemy isn't necessarily your friend.

Posted by: sold2u | August 7, 2010 7:14 PM | Report abuse

@schrodinger_scat: Not satisfied with Greg's "bigot" slander, you need to sneer McCarthyism to justify your advocacy for apartheid Islamo-supremacists.

Why can't you address the cited EVIDENCE that the sharia law vendors of Cordoba House are stealth jihadists, instead of slinging silly ad hominem scat through the bars of your mental cage?

Grade: F- (miserable failure)

/dismissed

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 7:34 PM | Report abuse

"In yet plainer English, forget the separation of church and state."

Why do you hate our constitution so much? As someone once said: "Everyone thinks there should be one exception to the First Amendment - and that's whatever offends them." Living in a free society is difficult and to enjoy our freedoms we have to tolerate many things that we disagree with. That's the price that we pay.

So what if someone says or believes something offensive/crazy/anti-American? According to the Pew Form, only 0.8% of the U.S. is Muslim - why do you feel so threatened by such a tiny minority? Why do you think such a small group of people has the power to somehow destroy our society? Do you really think our country and it's citizens are that weak?

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 7:40 PM | Report abuse

@KadafilDelendaEst - Could you write a bit on the versions and manifestations of the Muslim faith that you find acceptable?

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 7:43 PM | Report abuse

"i find it interesting that you stick up for a religion that goes diametrically against everything you stand for. "

Portions of lots of religons - Islam, evangelical Christianity, Hinduism, Scientology, Mormonism - are diametrically opposed to a lot of what I stand for - but I still support their followers freedom to worship as they see fit - so long as they do so within the confines of the law. Isn't that what this country is all about?

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 7:54 PM | Report abuse

@schrodinger_scat: Here we go again. The only way to prove Americans aren't scared of neo-Nazis is to support neo-pagan KKK demands to emolate Crann Tara monuments next to MLK memorials.

The only way to prove we're not terrified of communists is to support Marxist demands to build statues of Stalin next to the Lincoln Memorial.

So the 1st amendment is just an invitation to bend over and grab your ankles? Not in my America, Jack!
Why are Leftists-- who reflexively vomit over school (*gasp*) Christmas pageants-- suddenly so fanatical about "preventing restrictions of freedom of religion" at Ground Zero?

This Leftist submissiveness to Imam Rauf's demands sends the message that Leftists are Quislings and cowards.

Are Leftist idiotarians prepared to let Cordoba House intellectually bully them into accepting the false assertion that Imam Rauf's sharia law advocacy is (somehow) representative of all Muslims?

Muslim victim of 9/11: 'Build your mosque somewhere else'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080603006.html

/absurdity on stilts

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 8:01 PM | Report abuse

"Why can't you address the cited EVIDENCE that the sharia law vendors of Cordoba House are stealth jihadists, instead of slinging silly ad hominem"

Let's see: you've used the terms "stealth jihadists", "apartheid Islamo-supremacists", referred to the left as "quislings", "reprobates",and "cowards", called the community center a "snuff porn vendor emporium (and recruitment center)" and then you accuse ME of "slinging silly ad hominem (sic)"? Dude, you need to turn off Fox News, stop visiting RedState.com and go for a walk. Unless, of course, you think the black helicopters are after you....

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 8:07 PM | Report abuse

@Kadda - Question to you just above.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 8:07 PM | Report abuse

"Professor Newt's Distorted History Lesson"
http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010/08/professor-newts-distorted-history.html

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 8:09 PM | Report abuse

Does Schrodinger_Scat really imagine any zoning board would permit erecting a Hedonism Center (aka, strip club) across the street from Ground Zero to demonstrate our tolerance for those who worship at the altar of the pleasure principle?

Free expression is not sacrosanct. The whole purpose of zoning boards is to regulate architectural expression. Those boring appeals to 1st amendment are very silly strawmen.

I'm in favor of censorship-- and so are the courts! The only difference is (if you're a typical Leftist), you either won't admit it or you don't know it. But look: If you think it's a good idea for the government (federal, state, or local) to keep Triple-X porn off of Saturday-morning cartoon-hour TV, you're in favor of censorship. If you don't think neo-Nazis should be allowed to make presentations at your kid's public school's career day, you're in favor of censorship. Heck, if you think the federal government is right to block cigarette companies from advertising to kids, you, my friend, are in favor of censorship.

So the relevant question — which is invariably overlooked — isn't whether or not you are "for" or "against" free expression. The relevant question is, What and where do we want to censor? And how much censorship do we want on the public square?

Don't be a free expression contortionist for sharia law your whole life, Scat.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 8:09 PM | Report abuse

my right-leaning relative asked me "where are the rational Muslims -- why aren't they denouncing the Muslim extremists that attacked us on 9-11?"

so when -- it seems to me -- the Muslims try to do that, they are automatically labeled "extremists."

Posted by: jeeze56 | August 7, 2010 8:11 PM | Report abuse

Okay - once more for those who need a little extra help - (cough)*kaddafi*(cough) - it's NOT AT GROUND ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 8:13 PM | Report abuse

@Kadda - Are you going to get to that question? You don't seem the sort that would be leary of a simple interrogative.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 8:16 PM | Report abuse

@bernielatham: As stated above, a genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI_Blog/21/The-St-Petersburg-Declaration

I think their "versions and manifestations of the Muslim faith" are acceptable to most Americans-- though they are anathema to sharia law advocates of Cordoba House (and their Leftist-fascist co-conspirators).

Thanks for asking.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 8:17 PM | Report abuse

Why doesn't the ADL move....BACK TO ISRAEL!

Zionism has been put on display as the filthy corrupt murderous extremist threat to global peace and security that it is.

Posted by: Rubiconski | August 7, 2010 8:18 PM | Report abuse

The proposed 9/11 snuff porn emporium is 600 feet from Ground Zero. The Burlington Coat Factory building itself had the plane's landing gear lodged inside.

There are numerous mosques already in downtown Manhattan. This is not about Muslims needing yet another place to reflect (read: recruit).

Take you taqiya lies elsewhere, Scat.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 8:20 PM | Report abuse

"Does Schrodinger_Scat really imagine any zoning board would permit erecting a Hedonism Center (aka, strip club) across the street from Ground Zero to demonstrate our tolerance for those who worship at the altar of the pleasure principle?"

Ummm....it's not right across the street....it's two blocks away....not too far from a strip club, a store that sells porn and sex toys, and an off-track betting place.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 8:25 PM | Report abuse

@schrodinger_Scat whined: "not too far from a strip club, a store that sells porn and sex toys, and an off-track betting place."

All pre-existing. The issue is whether to permit a NEW abomination that makes desolate.

Pre-existing houses of worship must be allowed to rebuild. But let's not play coy. Leftists in NYC agencies don't hesitate to obstruct re-construction of those houses of worship -- the non-Islamic ones.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/nine-years-later-church-at-ground-zero-still-not-rebuilt-but-mad-rush-to-build-islamic-supremacist-m.html

This has NOTHING to do with religious freedom and everything to do with Islamo-supremacism. Somehow I think Leftists wouldn't support neo-pagan KKK demands to emolate Crann Tara monuments next to MLK memorials.

But when patriotic Americans object to jihadists opening a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium (and recruitment center) on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero-- these Leftist hypocrits shriek with indignation!

American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Americans to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Cordoba House jihadists than bromides and disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia law, as practiced by Cordoba House and their financial sponsors.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI_Blog/21/The-St-Petersburg-Declaration

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of Cordoba House (and their Leftist-facist co-conspirators) supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists… but don’t hold your breath.

/slouching toward Gomorah

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 8:34 PM | Report abuse

@Kadda - if you hold that a there is but a "tiny minority" of Muslims who are not jihadists (conversely, there's a huge/overwhelming/near total majority of those in the Muslim community who are, in your formulation, jihadists) then Greg's use of "bigot" would surely include yourself as a simple matter of definition.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 7, 2010 8:37 PM | Report abuse

@bernielatham: Are you suggesting FDR was a "bigot" for fighting the "huge/overwhelming/near total majority" of Shinto-fascist during WWII? Afterall, a tiny minority of secular American Shinto served America nobly in WWII.

Are you suggesting they were also "bigots"?

Don't be an apologist for apartheid Islamo-supremacism your whole life.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 8:54 PM | Report abuse

"All pre-existing. The issue is whether to permit a NEW abomination that makes desolate."

Who knew there was a grandfather clause when it comes to offensive institutions?

Seriously, though....what's with you and the invectives? If you feel your arguments are on solid foundation, why do you have to use such over-the-top hyperbole? I think one reference to "a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium" would be enough to make people understand what you're trying to say; two just makes you seem unhinged.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 9:07 PM | Report abuse

I think if we have to accept a mosque at ground zero, someone should open a gay bar next door called "Mohammed's Watering Hole"

Posted by: sold2u | August 7, 2010 9:13 PM | Report abuse

Maybe to avoid hurting the fee-fees of Mr. Foxman, all Muslims in America should prove they are committed to reconciliation and understanding by moving into ghettos like the one in German-occupied Warsaw.

Posted by: firenze_italia | August 7, 2010 9:15 PM | Report abuse

Scat whine: "Who knew there was a grandfather clause when it comes to offensive institutions?"

Apparently Scat didn't; apparently in embarrassing ignorance of the role of zoning commissions and architectural review boards. Does it have EVIDENCE (as opposed to sneering) that suggests otherwise?

If it doesn't like accurate descriptions of Islamo-supremacist snuff porn vending mosques, then feel free to refute them. Otherwise, the EVIDNCE (cited at length above) stands.

/checkmate

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 9:19 PM | Report abuse

firenze_italia wrote:

Maybe to avoid hurting the fee-fees of Mr. Foxman, all Muslims in America should prove they are committed to reconciliation and understanding by moving into ghettos like the one in German-occupied Warsaw.

___________________________________________

They're already in Queens and the Bronx. Why do you want to mess with them more?

Posted by: sold2u | August 7, 2010 9:28 PM | Report abuse

Again with the invectives.....weak sauce; but I guess you go with what you got.

"apparently in embarrassing ignorance of the role of zoning commissions and architectural review boards."

Reading comprehension is a problem for you, huh? I wasn't referring to the roles of zoning boards...I was referring to the "offense" that so-called "patriotic Americans" are experiencing that a community center is being built two blocks away from this "hallowed ground" that will soon be covered by an office building.

"If it doesn't like accurate descriptions of Islamo-supremacist snuff porn vending mosques, then feel free to refute them. Otherwise, the EVIDNCE (cited at length above) stands."

I've heard you're a satanist who enjoys having s*e*x with goats. Not an accurate description? Feel free to refute. Otherwise, the "EVIDNCE" (sic) stands.

Did you see how easy others can play at that game, too?

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Everyone in the world knows the Islams are doing this for provocation.
If we as Americans object - why PUSH it?
It is rude!!
I can't believe they would be so intent on cramming this down our throats.
Why not be polite and back off?
Can we build a Christian Church in Saudi Arabia?
They know we can't - and rubbing our faces in it.
For them - Islams- Government and religion ARE THE SAME.
And where is useless N.O.W.
They let their Muslim sisters be abused horrifically and nary a word.
The whole world is upside down and I blame Obama!!!
The truth will out - I hope we wake up before it's too late.

Posted by: Marrabella | August 7, 2010 10:01 PM | Report abuse

I accept Scat whining and inability to address the cited evidence as an admission of intellectual bankruptcy.

Grade: F- (miserable failure)

/dismissed

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 10:02 PM | Report abuse

New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques [Daisy Khan said over 100] so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel....

So what gives Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the "Cordoba Initiative" and his cohorts the misplaced idea that they will increase tolerance for Muslims by brazenly displaying their own intolerance in this case?...

There are many questions that we would like to ask. Questions about where the funding is coming from? If this mosque is being funded by Saudi sources, then it is an even bigger slap in the face of Americans, as nine of the jihadis in the Twin Tower calamity were Saudis.

If Rauf is serious about building bridges, then he could have dedicated space in this so-called community centre to a church and synagogue, but he did not. We passed on this message to him through a mutual Saudi friend, but received no answer. He could have proposed a memorial to the 9/11 dead with a denouncement of the doctrine of armed jihad, but he chose not to....

Let's not forget that a mosque is an exclusive place of worship for Muslims and not an inviting community centre. Most Americans are wary of mosques due to the hard core rhetoric that is used in pulpits. And rightly so. As Muslims we are dismayed that our co-religionists have such little consideration for their fellow citizens and wish to rub salt in their wounds and pretend they are applying a balm to sooth the pain....

As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.

Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 7, 2010 10:06 PM | Report abuse

@bonncaruso cited references in the Koran and statements of Islamic leaders that promote violence against non-believers. The Koran seems to specifically state that violence against "infidels" is requisite behavior in the Muslim religion.

@ifthethunderdontgetya cited biblical references of violence, mostly in the old testament and some in the new.

From my reading of the new testament I see no promotion of violence by human beings towards other human beings. That part of the bible that is supposed to be current dogma for Christianity abhors violence, although individuals who call themselves Christians don't necessarily follow the dogma.

@bonncaruso also cited polling in the Islamic world that indicates majority support for al quaeda and the like. Apparently the Koran and their faith in it demands support of Jihad. It would appear that according to the Koran and the imams that there can really be no such thing as a secular Muslim, because Islam takes precedence over all other forms of authority. In other words a true Muslim cannot be secular and would be classified as a false believer and no better than an infidel.

While I understand the fractious tribal relationships of the middle east and theolgical differences between Shiite and Sunni et al keep those who practice Islam at each others' throats, that does not mean that those who choose to practice Jihad can be wished away and ignored as many of you seem to wish to do.

The U.S. constitution would allow the building of any religious structure, local zoning laws permitting, for the location of the structure. For me that is not an issue. The bigger issue for non-Muslims is coexisting with people who, if they had the power to do so, would forcibly convert you, kill you or enslave you and are in the fastest growing religion in the world. And after conversion you women get relegated not to second class citizen status, but to second class species status. Islam, when practiced in accordance with Sharia law, is an anathema to our constitution as to individual human rights. Yet there are those who would allow enforcement of Sharia law by imams in this country. How absurd.

Posted by: actuator | August 7, 2010 10:21 PM | Report abuse

"I accept Scat whining and inability to address the cited evidence as an admission of intellectual bankruptcy."

Evidence? Evidence of what? The only evidence you've provided me with is evidence that you're pretty paranoid, likely bigoted, and you seem to enjoy cutting and pasting the same stuff over and over again. And you keep saying that I'm "sneering" at you.....whatever; I'd probably go with "ridiculing", but it's your call.

This shall be my final say on the issue at hand because I have to get up early tomorrow morning to exercise my constitutional right to practice my religion without interference from the government or paranoid right-wingers:

You can try and fuzz up the picture all you want, but it's really quite simple - do we as a society allow an organization to build what they want on property that they own? I think that as long as they're in compliance with zoning regulations, how can we as a society - a society we proudly proclaim to be free, open, and tolerant - deny them that right?

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 7, 2010 10:45 PM | Report abuse

Yes, it really is quite simple. Yes, they can build the cultural center, including a mosque, two minutes walk from Ground Zero, but the point is ... should they?

In my view, they should not. They should take the high road, acknowledge the pain and suffering that it will cause, and look for an alternate location.

By the way, you do know that this center is going to be the first of many all over the US? And you do know that Imam Feisal has developed a Sharia Index that will rank how sharia compliant Muslim majority countries are?

What is the purpose of a Sharia Index? Is it to pressure Muslim majority countries to become more Islamic, as per the index? And how will it be used in Muslim minority countries? I want to see it but it has not been published.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about the vision or purpose of all of these grand plans. But Imam Feisal is not available to answer the questions at the moment. He is off on a whirlwind tour of the Middle East compliments of the State Department.

Oh and please spare us all the slings and arrows of "bigotry". You, who are the first to criticize Christianity and Judaism are the first in line when it comes to supporting the rights of Islam and Muslims. You make me sick. Take your tolerance for the intolerable and stuff it.

Posted by: sgi1 | August 8, 2010 3:24 AM | Report abuse

I'm not condoning anything but just stating a fact. This will infuriate millions of people in this country. America has it's own share of radicals. Building this will only put another building in this area that is a potential target. What if something happens? Where will that put our out reach relations at? Building this Mosque here is no more than throwing gasoline on a fire.

Posted by: ProudTexan | August 8, 2010 3:48 AM | Report abuse

Before Kaddafi and his puppet post another hundred pages of nonsense based rantings, I just wanted to thank the people who are actually wasting their time talking to him. Here is a man (woman?) who is clinically paranoid and so utterly incapable of reasoning that he actually believes his bizarre accusations of some sort of weird Left-wing Muslim conspiracy. It's absolutely amazing; at least when it was the red scare there was some basis to accusing the Left of sympathizing with the enemy. There are not many groups of people with as little in common politically than the American Left and jihadists, but that doesn't matter to such mentally controlled peons. They believe what they are told, no matter how insane or incoherent. That must make their bosses happy.
I've come to appreciate that the hatred they feel for those Americans they disagree with is far more than they could ever feel for any external threat. Therefore, whenever they go to war with something, that thing becomes synonymous with the Left. With Russia, with Islamic terrorists groups, with Iraq, and even with NAZI Germany now, thanks to a little bit of historical revision, the true enemy is always the Left. Hitler had socialists executed as agents of Jews and saboteurs of his vision, and purged the NAZI Party of its socialist leaning leadership. Chamberlain was a member of the Conservative Party, and the Republicans were Isolationists. Even the “First they came…” poem that they love to imitate makes clear that Hitler’s enemies were communists (Lefties), unionists (Lefties), and Jews (Creators of Socialism and Capitalism in Hitler’s eyes), in that order. But that doesn't matter. Everything's all a damn commie plot in the eyes of this true believer.
So the Left blocks all construction of churches, despite the fact that there are seemingly more churches than people in every city I've ever seen in this country, including liberal Austin. And this building will be constructed to celebrate the 9-11 attacks, despite the lot being purchased by said Muslim organization 27 years ago. I suppose that only proves how interconnected the Pan-Islam Socialist conspiracy is. Not to mention that the building is located directly at ground zero, despite being 2 city blocks away. And, my favorite one, the Left wants Sharia Law imposed on the nation, and they want to ban God and turn your child gay! Please continue the good works, brothers and sisters; I can stand the inanity of his conspiratorial BS no longer. Go back to Free Republic where you belong, monster.
Aside from the detour, Greg is right. This kind of bigotry ought to be beneath the ADL.

Posted by: youdontneedtoknow | August 8, 2010 4:41 AM | Report abuse

All, thanks for the kind words, appreciate it.

Do you want a Sunday open thread?

Posted by: Greg Sargent | August 8, 2010 8:56 AM | Report abuse

All, Sunday open thread:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/sunday_open_thread_2.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | August 8, 2010 9:21 AM | Report abuse

First, the NYT has a piece this morning on the rise in anti-Muslim, anti-Mosque bigotry being fostered in many locales across the country - the same uneducated, misinformed and hate-filled stuff as we see above... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?_r=1&hp

So, this isn't about ground zero, if that wasn't already obvious to everyone. Which leads us to ponder just what the hell is going on here? It isn't as if there is even a parallel universe where the Stardust Bowling Alley in Great Neck Idaho is going to fall under the dress codes of Sharia. This promoted fear is unimaginably silly and thoughtless.

American history is replete with paranoid fantasies of this sort where external and internal enemies (Jewish Bankers, commie infiltrators, black power, chlorinated water, the New Math, Darwinists, Tri-Lateral Commission, the UN, etc) is mere days away from piercing the heart of True Americanness. These paranoid tendencies are just a part of America's cultural heritage and they seem unlikely to disappear.

But one can quite reasonably look to how these latent tendencies can be - and sometimes are - used to the advantage of certain corners or interest groups of the nation. To take a non-American example, the arms industry in Europe (Krupp, etc) came into being when the steel manufacturers, who become very wealthy and powerful as a consequence of the railroad boom (steel rails running across the continents, box cars) began to see greatly reduced profits when those rails were completed and the boxcars built. A saturated market. To gain new customers, they created new demand to sell new products - cannons..."You're neighboring nation, not your best buddy, looks likely to get cannons so you better do it too for your own defense." Then they'd visit that neighbor country and say the same thing.

In this case of modern anti-Muslim, anti-Arab sentiments being fostered through fear-mongering and disinformation it isn't difficult to see a new external enemy filling the place left by the former big boogey-man, Russian communism. The vast complex of financial and manufacturing and intelligence/logistical industries which have war/defense as their products needed a new threat.

Another sector who thrives and profits from such fear-mongering is the modern rightwing media universe, FOX and talk radio most obviously. There's a reason Limbaugh could get $400 million for 8 years. Clear Channel makes more than that from what Limbaugh does. Likewise, Murdoch uses Ailes and Beck et al for what he believes they deliver in dollars for him.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 8, 2010 9:26 AM | Report abuse

Hey Bernie...want to drop that comment into the open thread?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/sunday_open_thread_2.html

might get folks going...

Posted by: sargegreg | August 8, 2010 9:32 AM | Report abuse

youdontneedtoknow has the audacity to climb up on his hind legs and howl about (alleged) conservative "hatred" after his Leftist co-conspirators spent the last decade goose-stepping at kristallnaght-style gutter riots (masquerading as “peace” protests).

Patriotic Americans are encourage to Enter the “Leftist-fascist Hall of Shame” and remember what Leftist-fascism looks like.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

So, when is billionaire progressive George Soros financing the unhinged Leftist rent-a-mob rally against ObaMao’s summary execution of three (un-Mirandized) Somali teens at sea? Afterall, that tactic was clearly more “fascist” than our patriotic moistening of KSM, et.al. The one year anniversary of ObaMao’s high seas shooting spree has already passed. Get busy, Leftists.

Rage against the machine, man!

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 12:26 PM | Report abuse

youdontneedtoknow has the audacity to climb up on his hind legs and howl about (alleged) conservative "hatred" after his Leftist co-conspirators spent the last decade goose-stepping at kristallnaght-style gutter riots (masquerading as “peace” protests).

Patriotic Americans are encourage to Enter the “Leftist-fascist Hall of Shame” and remember what Leftist-fascism looks like.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

So, when is billionaire progressive George Soros financing the unhinged Leftist rent-a-mob rally against ObaMao’s summary execution of three (un-Mirandized) Somali teens at sea? Afterall, that tactic was clearly more “fascist” than our patriotic moistening of KSM, et.al. The one year anniversary of ObaMao’s high seas shooting spree has already passed. Get busy, Leftists.

Rage against the machine, man!

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 12:27 PM | Report abuse

Leftist comrades should learn to accept the fact that fascism is Leftist.

For those who wish to explore the subject in greater depth, a useful recent resource would be a book by an expert on Italian Fascism: “The Faces of Janus: Marxism and Fascism in the 20th Century”, by A. James Gregor.
http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Janus-Marxism-Fascism-Twentieth/dp/0300106025

Gregor exhaustively demonstrates that Fascism and Nazism modelled their methods on the atheistic Marxism of Lenin and Stalin; and that the Fascist idea of adding nationalism to socialism was later taken up by Stalin and Mao— so that (in the end) Fascism and Communism were merely twin atheistic Marxist sects. Thus, during the era of their big confrontation, Soviet Russia and Maoist China were perfectly correct in accusing one-another of being “fascists.”

100s of millions of corpses don’t lie. That’s one big steaming pile your commie dogs left in history’s living room. Own it, “progressive” Marxist half-wits.

Don’t be Marxist apologists for Islamo-fascism your whole life, Leftists.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

The motives and actions of Leftist “progressive” apologists for Cordoba House are sinister, and ought to be so recognized by people of good faith. Their reasoning sounds insane because it is, and they are.

For a more scholarly discussion of the phenomenon, read “Unholy Alliance: Radical Islam and the American Left” @
http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Alliance-Radical-Islam-American/dp/089526076X

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

It is way past time for the members of the press, media, and think tanks to study Islam and their openly stated goal, which is to make the United States part of a global sharia , or Islamic state worldwide.
The Imam is a strong supporter of terrorists groups, and when asked if Hamas is terror group as listed by the State Department, he refused to answer. The ADL is promoting our Freedoms and not their destruction in its position. If Sharia usurps our Constitution as the Muslim Brotherhood with its sub-groups, such as CAIR,are victorious in their pursuit by using our system to destroy it,as they have been doing at the UN, then, all non-Muslim groups are considered second-class citizens, subjugated
to a dhimmi status and taxed as such.We lose our rights as guaranteed by the Constitution.There is no freedom of speech,
or expression, or judiciary system as ours is.Women are barely considered human beings with rights.The practice of erecting a mosque as a symbol of victory over another system is centuries old with numerous examples. ALL of this information is readily available and every citizen must study and familiarize him/herself with Islam and its history and practices.
The Koran is not only a religious document, it is a political and social one as well.Ignoring all of this will not change the realities.This mosque is being built to replace a century old building
that has part of one of the 9-11 attack planes lodged inside of it during the attack.Previously, missing bodies have been reportedly found in, or around it.
Rauf knows exactly what he is trying to pull.He, also, will not release from where the $130M to build it is coming,as every other building in NY must. There is no excuse by now for any politician, or press person, or pundit, or author, to not be thoroughly knowledgeable about Islam, Jihad,the individuals and groups involved.
They have infiltrated the highest areas of of government and media and banking through their installation of Sharia Compliant Banking Laws.Non-Muslims cannot participate, but the banks we bailed out do,and the taxpayers have, thus,supported it,unknowingly.Do not believe me.Study, research,and get going before it is too late.Stop merely accepting the tripe and propaganda.Study,question,demand answers.It's past time.This is not just Conservative vs. Liberal.This is Freedom vs. non-freedom.Start with the Centerforsecuritypolicy.org, frontpagemag.com and its Discoverthenetworks,com blog, Jihadwatch.com,Atlasshrugs.com.If you consider yourself intelligent, brilliant, a genius, go back to the old learning mode.
Clear your minds and dig in.Your lives and those of your daughters and sons and grandchildren depend on it.Dig, dig, and dig out the Truth.We are at a precipice.
Remember,Hitler came first for the Jews and those who opposed his politics,then, the Catholics and the Church,and then, everyone who did not follow his dicta.No one is to be exempt.The ultimate goal includes the destruction of Western Civilization.Go!

Posted by: mundus611 | August 8, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse

This is the price of Muslim immigration into the U.S.

We are making the enemy on of us with the same freedoms and rights. Once they are citizens, there is nothing we can do.

Muslims leverage the lunacy of our radical left-wing so that anyone that questions the Muslim expansion into the West will be condemned as morally reprehensible and "un-American."

Posted by: Mallarde1 | August 9, 2010 5:02 AM | Report abuse

Someone should rent a billboard right in the sight line of Cordoba House and put on it a big picture of the cartoon of Mohammed that the poor Dutch cartoonist drew that was shot.

That would turn the tables on them.

Posted by: Mallarde1 | August 9, 2010 5:08 AM | Report abuse

The protests against mosques around the country have also gained momentum to those mosques that already exist (as in fact the Park Place Manhattan site has been a prayer center since December 2009).

Protest against existing mosques in Connecticut, California, North Carolina, and Texas keep GROWING... very disturbing trend against freedom of religion and freedom of worship in America.

Posted by: responsiblepublic | August 10, 2010 8:08 AM | Report abuse

Does anyone else find it an incredible coincidence that the group's acronym Adl means God's divine justice in Arabic? I'm not trying to suggest anything, just an interesting side note.

Posted by: jbsnyder | August 11, 2010 1:09 PM | Report abuse

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