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What's happening? They still letting Muslims worship at the Pentagon?

By Greg Sargent  |  August 8, 2010; 9:12 AM ET
Categories:  Miscellaneous  
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Morning, sir. If you don't mind, I'll plunk this in here to start us off in a merry direction.

The NYT has a piece this morning on the rise in anti-Muslim, anti-Mosque bigotry being fostered in many locales across the country - the same uneducated, misinformed and hate-filled stuff as we saw here yesterday... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?_r=1&hp

So, this isn't about ground zero, if that wasn't already obvious to everyone. Which leads us to ponder just what the hell is going on here? It isn't as if there is even a parallel universe where the Stardust Bowling Alley in Great Neck Idaho is going to fall under the dress codes of Sharia. This promoted fear is unimaginably silly and thoughtless.

American history is replete with paranoid fantasies of this sort where external and internal enemies (Jewish Bankers, commie infiltrators, black power, chlorinated water, the New Math, Darwinists, Tri-Lateral Commission, the UN, etc) is mere days away from piercing the heart of True Americanness. These paranoid tendencies are just a part of America's cultural heritage and they seem unlikely to disappear.

But one can quite reasonably look to how these latent tendencies can be - and sometimes are - used to the advantage of certain corners or interest groups of the nation. To take a non-American example, the arms industry in Europe (Krupp, etc) came into being when the steel manufacturers, who become very wealthy and powerful as a consequence of the railroad boom (steel rails running across the continents, box cars) began to see greatly reduced profits when those rails were completed and the boxcars built. A saturated market. To gain new customers, they created new demand to sell new products - cannons..."You're neighboring nation, not your best buddy, looks likely to get cannons so you better do it too for your own defense." Then they'd visit that neighbor country and say the same thing.

In this case of modern anti-Muslim, anti-Arab sentiments being fostered through fear-mongering and disinformation it isn't difficult to see a new external enemy filling the place left by the former big boogey-man, Russian communism. The vast complex of financial and manufacturing and intelligence/logistical industries which have war/defense as their products needed a new threat.

Another sector who thrives and profits from such fear-mongering is the modern rightwing media universe, FOX and talk radio most obviously. There's a reason Limbaugh could get $400 million for 8 years. Clear Channel makes more than that from what Limbaugh does. Likewise, Murdoch uses Ailes and Beck et al for what he believes they deliver in dollars for him.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 8, 2010 9:32 AM | Report abuse

The NY Times article was the headline in our local paper this morning. It's pretty depressing if you want to know the truth. I'm shocked, I know I shouldn't be, at the quantity of invective.

"In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law.

These local skirmishes make clear that there is now widespread debate about whether the best way to uphold America’s democratic values is to allow Muslims the same religious freedom enjoyed by other Americans, or to pull away the welcome mat from a faith seen as a singular threat.

“What’s different is the heat, the volume, the level of hostility,” said Ihsan Bagby, associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. “It’s one thing to oppose a mosque because traffic might increase, but it’s different when you say these mosques are going to be nurturing terrorist bombers, that Islam is invading, that civilization is being undermined by Muslims.”

Feeding the resistance is a growing cottage industry of authors and bloggers — some of them former Muslims — who are invited to speak at rallies, sell their books and testify in churches. Their message is that Islam is inherently violent and incompatible with America.

But they have not gone unanswered. In each community, interfaith groups led by Protestant ministers, Catholic priests, rabbis and clergy members of other faiths have defended the mosques. Often, they have been slower to organize than the mosque opponents, but their numbers have usually been larger."

"A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. It disclosed that many mosque leaders had put significant effort into countering extremism by building youth programs, sponsoring anti-violence forums and scrutinizing teachers and texts.

Radicalization of alienated Muslim youths is a real threat, Mr. Bagby said. “But the youth we worry about,” he said, “are not the youth that come to the mosque.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?_r=1&hp

Posted by: lmsinca | August 8, 2010 9:39 AM | Report abuse

And, to the above, I suppose I ought to add another aspect here to that 'what the hell is going on?' pondering.

The divisiveness we see in this issue reflects the divisiveness we've seen on so many others. None of them (gay rights, Darwin, women's equality, immigration, public schooling, etc) poses any real existential threat to the US though each is commonly portrayed by the modern right as a threat of such magnitude.

One can motivate the public to behave in some manner deemed advantageous through fostering paranoid fears, of course, and that's clearly a big part of what's going on.

But one can see all this as having another function as well. When the public's attention and concern and emotions are concentrated on something like gay marriage, their attention is NOT focused on other things, like the rapidly increasing (since Reagan) disparity between the rich and the rest of us.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 8, 2010 9:52 AM | Report abuse

Since a lot of the Right Wingers want to treat American Muslims as seperate and unequal, then why the hell did they waste the lives of thousands of our brave troops in places like Iraq?

Didn't the Republicans keep boasting about how they were working hand in hand with the government of Iraq, and that we and they were joined at the hip.

Since the Right Wingers want to restrict domestic Muslims, then why are we even trying to convince Pakistan to be on our side?

Republicans, as always, want to have their hate and eat it too.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 8, 2010 9:58 AM | Report abuse

Ims - It is pretty ugly, isn' it? One certainty (I think I can label it as such) that we can take away here is that what we are witnessing would not be happening at anywhere near the present magnitude and levels of insane/misinformed vitriol if talk radio and FOX were removed from the equation.

Sooner or later, the US is going to have to honestly confront what has been created here.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 8, 2010 9:59 AM | Report abuse

"Which leads us to ponder just what the hell is going on here?"

Someone the other day (sorry that I've forgotten who) suggested that the rise in anti-Muslim hysteria is due to Bush leaving office - that the Bush administration (for the most part) made a conscious effort to keep the rhetoric from the right under control after 9/11. Now that the inmates have taken over the asylum, it's all bubbling to the top.

Now combine that with the fact that an embarrassingly large number of people believe that Obama is some sort of a Muslim sleeper agent and.....voila! It's almost a perfect storm!

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 8, 2010 9:59 AM | Report abuse

Hi Liam

Consistency appears to be some sort of elitist thing, I guess.

One of my faves (I have a fair few) is the zest to protect our freedoms, like the freedom to worship at the church of one's choice, through excluding a church of some other peoples' choice.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 8, 2010 10:03 AM | Report abuse

Schrod - That's an interesting change, isn't it? The Bush administration went to some efforts to quell a broader anti-Muslim sentiment in a number of statements from a number of admin officials over a period of time. They obviously thought about this, discussed it and implemented a strategy to minimize a confused and non-specific bigotry. Of course, they did much else that has been causal in bringing this all about too. But at least they were somewhat rational.

I am sure that if Republicans were in power, this would not be happening. Out of power, they have different objectives. Social discord and disarray can be used to suggest that the present administration is failing, has little public support, and is dangerously inept, etc.

It's an absolutely cynical means back to power but that is who they now are.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 8, 2010 10:10 AM | Report abuse

That's it for some hours. Nice talking with you folks again.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 8, 2010 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Except:

Bush/Cheney always talked out of both sides of their mouths on the subject of dealing with Muslims.

They were the ones who fomented all the fear of the looming danger from Iraq; with their Mushroom Cloud scenario, connection to 9/11, etc.

Recall all those color terror alerts that they kept raising? That sowed a lot of the seeds of irrational fear of all Muslims, that we are now seeing take root and flourish.
Bush/Cheney sowed the seeds of irrational fear of all Muslims to the extent, that when one nut job set his testicles on fire, a sizable majority of Right Wingers all wet their beds.

The most amazing thing, that has come out of this fear mongering era is;

The Right Wingers who claim that they are the strongest on National Security, are the ones who are the ones who are afraid of their own shadows. They are a bunch of bed wetting cowards.

Brave people do not traffic in Collective Guilt. Cowards do.


Posted by: Liam-still | August 8, 2010 10:13 AM | Report abuse

Bernie

Have a good day.

Right Wing's Freedom Of Religion Manifesto:

No To Sharia Law;

Yes To Sharronia Law.
(As In Sharron Angle's God's Law)

Posted by: Liam-still | August 8, 2010 10:20 AM | Report abuse

Have a good day Bernie, I see we were reading the same things this morning. I followed the thread yesterday but didn't participate too much, SCat covered it quite nicely for all of us. Unfortunately, deaf ears and all that. That such a huge and diverse country could fear being taken over by Sharia Law is one thing I'll never believe. The message machine on the right is sure working hard at convincing their minions though.

Posted by: lmsinca | August 8, 2010 10:29 AM | Report abuse

Tomorrow, you too, could be a target of their irrational hate.
The US has a long history of prejudice against groups, immigrants, blacks, religion, gays, women the list goes on and on.

It is important to stand up against these people and to support those of the firing line.
You could be next.

Posted by: mgardener | August 8, 2010 10:41 AM | Report abuse

Yes indeed. Which is why ADL has now put such an indelible stain on it's former great reputation.

You can not be against what The Grand Wizard stands for, and behave just like him, at the same time; which is precisely was Abe Foxeman has now done.

Posted by: Liam-still | August 8, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Do have a look, "Islam: A Quick Introduction"

http://www.islamicsolutions.com/islam-a-quick-introduction/

Posted by: ffa7 | August 8, 2010 11:31 AM | Report abuse

Islam is the enemy within. Just look at our president. It should be banned from America. Better safe than sorry! Just read about.

Posted by: brnfream2 | August 8, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

"Bush/Cheney always talked out of both sides of their mouths on the subject of dealing with Muslims."

Oh, trust me, Liam.....I harbor no illusions about the saintliness of Bush and Cheney, but at least Bush would occasionally pay lip service to tolerance. We're not even getting anything close to that from the right these days.

"Yes indeed. Which is why ADL has now put such an indelible stain on it's former great reputation."

I agree. It's incredibly disappointing.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 8, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

I see the trolls repeat the same old Know-Nothing McCarthyite s**t their "intellectual" forebears did.

The crap is always the same, except that the othered group is always new.

Irrational hate is irrational hate. Osama Bin Laden is their master.

Posted by: akaoddjob | August 8, 2010 11:47 AM | Report abuse

Islam is not a religion of tolerence so why are they given any credabilty.

Posted by: rgodzala1 | August 8, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

rgodzala1 Just a question. Which school did you attend to achieve your Divinity Degree? Or perhaps you'd have us believe you've read the Koran cover to cover. I haven't but from what I understand it's much shorter than the Bible so perhaps you could get started rgodzala...you'll forgive our skepticism at your expertise on Islam. How about documenting where your expertise came from.

Posted by: rukidding7 | August 8, 2010 12:47 PM | Report abuse

Cordoba House’s Imam Rauf refuses to condemn Hamas, and has said, about 9/11, “I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.”
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2462

Recall, in a 6 to 3 decision this summer, the Supreme Court upheld a federal law that makes it a crime for Americans to provide “material support” of any kind – be it in the form of cash, weaponry, training, personnel, services, or “expert advice or assistance” – to a foreign terrorist organization, even if that support is for ostensibly peaceful purposes.

Hamas would be one such example. It conducts terrorist attacks against Israel with one part of its organization while running charitable endeavors with another. Propagandizing for Hamas to support its outreach programs would allow Hamas to use propaganda money elsewhere, or even if the specific money was applied to the charitable work, it would allow Hamas to not have to dip into the charity funds for its terrorist activities.

So, thanks once again to Cordoba House (the local Hamas propagandists) for making it easier for Obama's NSA to track your activities and Holder's Justice Department to prosecute your material support propaganda campaign.

Great job, Imam Rauf!

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

The odious game of playing footsie with terrorists is finally coming to a close.

BREAKING: Former Congressman Pleads Guilty to Obstructing Justice, Acting as Unregistered Foreign Agent
http://kansascity.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel10/kc070710.htm

A former congressman and U.S. ambassador to the United Nations pleaded guilty in federal court today to obstruction of justice and to acting as an unregistered foreign agent related to his work for an Islamic charity with ties to international terrorism, announced Beth Phillips, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Missouri...

[Those puckering sounds you hear are the tightening sphincters of Cordoba House jihadists who advocate on behalf of Hamas.]

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 12:56 PM | Report abuse

I invite all of you to watch what happens in Florida Politics this year to get an idea of what is going on in our nation. I know California...or is it Caleeefornia is supposed to be our nation's bellwether and they also have some intereting developments...obviously on the gay marriage issue...but check out what's happened in
Florida and you can see we are all dying on the cross of the First Amendment and free speech. I LOVE THE CONSTITUTION but it's interpretation changes doesn't it!
And so a legal scholar can explain to me why we can "legally" ban the free speech of Tobacco on TV but we are unable to do a single thing about political advertising.

Two crooks who have gamed our Medical system stealing from taxpayers and cheated the real estate industry with things like "unsigned deeds" and mortgage fraud are leading their respective party primaries for Senate and Governor. One R and one former R who suddenly switched to a D just in time to face Kendrick Meek in the D Senate Primary.

Front page news today in the St. Pete Times..

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/calif-deal-put-jeff-greene-on-front-line-of-mortgage-mess/1113805

Four years ago, Greene was party to precisely the kind of deal that decimated the real estate/mortgage market.

Greene insists he did nothing wrong. Yet the way he handled the deal left an opening for massive fraud and put him uncomfortably close to a man now under federal indictment.

Posted by: rukidding7 | August 8, 2010 12:56 PM | Report abuse

ruk, probably Glenn Beck University.

As others have said, this is clearly another spike in xenophobia driven by context. This time it's the bad economy plus the right wing noise machine.

These people have no idea what they're talking about. Their intolerance has everything in common with radical Islam.

Here's a challenge for the trolls: meet some people of different faiths. If you don't know any Muslims, DO NOT comment here on their religion.

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 8, 2010 12:56 PM | Report abuse

1. Re the anti-Islam hysteria: we are on our back as a society. People look for scapegoats. The anti-Islam hysteria is proto-fascism. See: Germany, Weimar.

2. Re McConnell and "collegiality": His idea of being a senator is to enhance one's personal privilege and power. "Collegiality" to him and those of his ilk (Dodd) means mutual backscratching and other forms of pleasure. The more senators it takes to block something, the less individual power each one has.

Posted by: joeff | August 8, 2010 1:08 PM | Report abuse

And now to complete the embarrassment for Florida check out the crook who is leading the R primary for Governor. Admittedly he is running against one of the biggest losers to ever emerge from Florida politics, Bill McCollom,,,but vote for a crook like Scott?

Again this is not a partisan rant against Scott or the R's...see D Greene above lol..it is a rant against the power of ;30 commercials in the largest state and Federal races to absolutely influence the outcome.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/for-rick-scott-success-and-scandal-are-inseparable/1113883

The questions underscore a conflict inherent in Scott's campaign: His business background and the Medicare scandal are inseparable. Scott – who was not charged or fined – said he didn't know about the troubles that unfolded on his watch, which raises questions about his leadership.


And so I conclude with a bit of snark that I wish could come true....NO FREAKING TV ADS ALLOWED! PUBLIC CAMPAIGN FINANCING NOW!

Posted by: rukidding7 | August 8, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Ted Olson with Chris Wallace this morning:

Ted Olson told Fox News' Chris Wallace Sunday that it's not "judicial activism" when a judge follows the Constitution.

"Where is the right to same-sex marriage in the Constitution?" asked Wallace.

"Where is the right to interracial marriage in the Constitution, Chris?" replied Olson.

"The Supreme Court has looked at marriage and has said that the right to marry is a fundamental right for all citizens. So you call it interracial marriage and then you could prohibit it, no? The Supreme Court said no. The same thing here," explained Olson.

"The judge after hearing three weeks of testimony and full day of closing arguments and listening to experts from all over the world concluded that the denial of the right to marry to these individuals in California hurt them and did not advance the cause of opposite sex marriage," Olson continued.

"This is what judges are expected to do. It's not judicial activism. It's judicial responsibility in the classic sense."

As the lawyer that successfully argued Bush v. Gore before the Supreme Court in 2000, Olson's conservative credentials are unassailable. Wallace wanted to know why Olson would support gay rights in this case.

"We believe that a conservative value is stable relationships and stable community and loving individuals coming together and forming a basis that is a building block of our society, which includes marriage," said Olson.

Posted by: lmsinca | August 8, 2010 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Sadly No! has a fine take on right-wing bigot-baiting (re: Cordoba House):

http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/32791.html

=>But as I was reading through Andy’s overheated claptrap, I thought a little experiment — a word substitution game, if you will — might be interesting...<=
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | August 8, 2010 1:51 PM | Report abuse

"As others have said, this is clearly another spike in xenophobia driven by context. This time it's the bad economy plus the right wing noise machine.

These people have no idea what they're talking about. Their intolerance has everything in common with radical Islam.

Here's a challenge for the trolls: meet some people of different faiths. If you don't know any Muslims, DO NOT comment here on their religion.

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 8, 2010 12:56 PM "

Then what do you say to somebody like me, who's lived among every type of person on the planet and looks, objectively, at Islam and sees some serious flaws that Muslims themselves appear loathe to confront?

Islam seems to encourage an uncritical adoration of the supposed divine that really downplays dissent, criticism or individuality. It's telling, to me, that one of the supreme accomplishments in Islamic study is to memorize the Koran in classical Arabic and recite it. It's troubling that many Muslim nations criminalize conversion, prosletyzing or even the presence of non-Muslim people or things. And Muslims generally seem to often define their religion as encompassing everything good -- they simply define the negative aspects out. That's like arguing that American society is peacfeul because murder is illegal in every jurisdiction. It's both a truism and irrelevant. As a Westerner, I have a real problem with any religion or school of thought that essentially demands to be accepted on its terms, without question.

If you think your god is the one true god, and your religion is the final word, you're not going to be open to different points of view on that. You're going to tend to see every problem's cause as somewhere other than you. Everything gets externalized. The temptation is the cause. By amazing coincidence, that's how Islam often operates. Women are forced to cover their bodies because their attractiveness causes sexual assaults. Festering issues like Palestine and Kashmir linger for decades because it's always somebody's else's responsibility to fix it. Every conflict is seen as an outside attack on your way of life, as though we invaded Afghanistan in October, 2001 for lack of anything better to do.

That you can find these flaws elsewhere is irrelevant. I'm not justifying some of the paranoia in this country over benign things like mosques, but I'm also appreciative of why Americans could be threatened by a religion with such a poor modern track record - a religion that, in the nations where it dominates, would reject these Americans as they are. Simply telling those people they're ignorant bigots isn't going to help. Some of them actually have a point.

Posted by: simpleton1 | August 8, 2010 1:58 PM | Report abuse

Islam seems to encourage an uncritical adoration of the supposed divine that really downplays dissent, criticism or individuality.
...
Posted by: simpleton1 | August 8, 2010 1:58 PM |
==========================

Oh, so it's totally different from Catholicism and Protestant Fundamentalism?

Here's a quote:

"Tuez-les tous; Dieu reconnaitra les siens."

-Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux

Why don't you do some research and tell us its meaning and context?
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | August 8, 2010 2:19 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for that quote, ifthethunderdontgetya. I'd love to hear how it's relevant to anything, especially since I acknowledged up front that I wasn't suggesting that only Islam carries some of these flaws. (Reading comprehension not your thing, huh?)

Posted by: simpleton1 | August 8, 2010 2:31 PM | Report abuse

I read what you wrote, simpleton1.

Your disclaimer "only Islam carries some of these flaws", doesn't support your argument, it eliminates it.

There's no more reason to oppose this community center/mosque than there is for any other house of worship in this country.

It's simply opportunistic hate-mongering by the usual suspects, and you ought to be ashamed for indulging in it.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | August 8, 2010 2:47 PM | Report abuse

To the union members of various local's of New York City. Nothing get's built in your city without you. Work slow down's strikes. Insure that that Mosque is finished in the year2250.

Posted by: banger909 | August 8, 2010 2:49 PM | Report abuse

simpleton, the logic of your argument leads nicely to ensuring that no religious buildings get built anywhere (since there is always something or someone that/who is sensitive).

That would be fine with me, but you can't run an open society that way.

Principles aren't supposed to be convenient; if you would allow a Christian center there (keeping in mind that Christians hold many oppressive beliefs and have killed many people in the name of their God) then you ought to allow an Islamic one.

Otherwise your America is the land of the not-free and the home of the chickenshit.

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 8, 2010 3:02 PM | Report abuse

And speaking of oppressive beliefs, it's nice to see the right simultaneously lashing out at homosexuals, blacks, Latinos, and Muslims all at the same time.

Tell me, trolls, who does that leave?

Anyone who doesn't understand the southern strategy and its divide and conquer mentality needs to start paying attention. The GOP has hitched its wagon to an undemocratic, cancerous force of bigotry and jingoism in this country.

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 8, 2010 3:08 PM | Report abuse

The fall-back position of the left is to accuse anyone with whom they disagree of bigotry, racism and intolerance. It's impossible to take the left seriously if that is always, without exception, their argument. Why would rational, reasonable people in the center or center right care about what the left thinks about anything if the debate always devolves to the laziest and most scurrilous slurs?

You have lost the argument if that is all that you can come up with.

Posted by: sgi1 | August 8, 2010 3:18 PM | Report abuse

Neither of the people who responded to what I wrote have made any response even remotely on point.

I never said I was opposed to the downtown Manhattan mosque and, in fact, I wrote "I'm not justifying some of the paranoia in this country over benign things like mosques." (That's a direct quote for people who can't read well. I'm looking at you, ifthethunderdontgetya.)

So the "logic" of my "argument" was actually just an observation that, over the years, I've developed some reservations about Islam that I don't harbor about other prominent religions or political systems. I can see legitimate reasons, above and beyond ignorance or bigotry, why somebody might be more concerned about a mosque in their neighborhood than, say, an Amish cultural center or a Buddhist temple. You guys were asserting that the only reason somebody would be concerned about Islam in their neighborhood is because they're a know-nothing FoxNews watcher. I'm offering some other perspectives.

Lecturing me, in response, about the benefits of an open society, or about some quote from the Abbot of Citeaux (WTF?!?), just completely misses the point. Telling people concerned about mosques that they're simply ignorant FoxNews watchers won't help much, if their concerns lie elsewhere. You really need to appreciate that fact if you're ever going to change anyone's minds on this. Because the kind of dittohead echo chamber that this comment thread seems to be (and Plum Line generally, no offense Greg) is just one step above pointless.

Posted by: simpleton1 | August 8, 2010 3:19 PM | Report abuse

"To the union members of various local's of New York City. Nothing get's built in your city without you."

Awww....isn't that sweet. Now all of a sudden unions are heroes to the right.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 8, 2010 3:20 PM | Report abuse

You guys were asserting that the only reason somebody would be concerned about Islam in their neighborhood is because they're a know-nothing FoxNews watcher. I'm offering some other perspectives.
=========================

No, you're not.

You're serving up the exact same thing.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | August 8, 2010 3:24 PM | Report abuse

simpleton, I'm not a big fan of organized religion, period. Some are certainly more benign than others when it comes to behaving in intolerant ways towards people with whom they disagree. There are plenty of things about Islam I dislike, though such a list could easily be made for Christianity and others.

So let's get to the fundamental point. The reason I would not condemn the construction of the Cordoba Center is that in a free society we have to be able to deal with, and be confronted with, things (buildings, rallies, parades, items of clothing) with which we disagree. And then we ensure that our society protects everyone's rights equally. Everyone has the right to ignore the center, to donate money to organizations that promote Islamic openness, to peace, or whatever, as long as it's within the law.

You can't have a free society with a footnote that says, "well, we may have to change our minds if we get uncomfortable."

If this was a matter of an Islamic center that contravened the laws of this country, if it foments any kind of terrorist activity, then that's different. I just don't see any evidence of this.

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 8, 2010 3:34 PM | Report abuse

"Then what do you say to somebody like me, who's lived among every type of person on the planet and looks, objectively, at Islam and sees some serious flaws that Muslims themselves appear loathe to confront?"

I say, don't become Muslim. Seriously. Beyond that, what's your point?

I happen to agree with many of your criticisms of Islam. I also happen to think there are things wrong with just about any religion you could name. But until someone infringes on MY rights - or someone else's rights - while practicing their religion, then, quite frankly, it's none of my - or the government's - business.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | August 8, 2010 3:43 PM | Report abuse

Let me make an entirely practical comment. Muslims worldwide are about 1/5 of the globe's population, or 1.2 billion more or less. Christians are a larger proportion, say about 2 billion. It is in everyone's best interests to find ways to live peacefully with both large religious factions, Islam and Christianity. It's just common sense. I would not be looking for ways to have "issues" with someone else's religion, particularly when you are looking at over a billion people with those views. We do NOT want the Crusades again--and remember Christians did NOT win.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | August 8, 2010 3:47 PM | Report abuse

simpleton seems to think that Muslims should be open to debate about their religion, because simpleton and people like him have "issues" with it. Good luck with that!

Leave it alone, simpleton, and hope that some other simpleton doesn't have issues with your religion and want to debate it with you. I guarantee it that you won't be open to that debate.

I'm Catholic, and every once in a while, some do gooder wants to enlighten me about what's wrong with my religion. Mind your own business.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | August 8, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues,

Getting rid of pedophile priests would be a good start. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) Why you would say I can't handle criticism is beyond me, since the WHOLE POINT of my posting here is to debate this stuff.

I'm an atheist, so I'm actually open to criticism of any religion, or the absence thereof. Personally I think it's all mindless BS. But so long as it keeps people happy and off the streets, as they say, then it's no big deal to me. If you want to have a prayer at graduation, Islamic or otherwise, I frankly don't mind in the slightest.

Unless your prayer is to wish death on me or people not like you. And the "Death to America" chants come more frequently from one part of the world. That's not to say that American muslims are some fifth column or some untrustworthy group; again, it's simply to point out that you can look at what's happened the past couple of decades and conclude, with some reason, that Islam has infringed, or is about to infringe, on your rights, as schrodingerscat puts it. If Islam's such a tolerant religion, then why can you be murdered in Pakistan simply for handing out bibles or drawing a cartoon of Mohammad in Denmark? And what assurances can you give that the same won't happen here?

Posted by: simpleton1 | August 8, 2010 4:13 PM | Report abuse

simpleton1, while I agree with your basic premise, I have to disagree with one statement "Islam seems to encourage an uncritical adoration of the supposed divine"
In fact Islam demands uncritical adoration. There is no such thing as moderate Islam. That's not to say that there aren't Muslims that disagree with parts of the Qur'an but in the eyes of the true believers they are not Muslims. This is why you will rarely see any Muslim speak out against terrorist acts. To do so would make them the enemy of Islam.
Islam is not now nor has ever been a religion of "peace". It's doctrine is one of intolerance and unconditional surrender to any that don't follow their beliefs. And while all religions are simply a system to subvert the will of the masses to those who wish to be in power, Islam is far more " do or die" than any other.
Islam owes it's success mainly to one factor, Ignorance. According to UNESCO and backed up by Islamic Research Foundation International, a group that promotes Muslim education, 62% of Muslim worldwide are illiterate. This is 40% higher than worldwide average. And as fundamentalist teaching increases the number is actually increasing. Pakistan, the most technologically advanced Muslim nation has a literacy rate of only 18%. Afghanastan is even less. Is it no wonder that fundamentalist Imams have such an influence on the populations. Education is discouraged and in many cases forbidden because it is the antithesis of fundamentalist Islam. Until this changes, Islam will continue to look at the rest of the world as an enemy that needs to be conquered.
simpleton1, I commend you for taking the middle ground and trying to add some intelligence to the conversation but unfortunately you and others like you get downed out by the lack of same from posters on both left and right.

Posted by: gravitysucks | August 8, 2010 4:32 PM | Report abuse

joeff has the audacity to climb up on its hind legs and howl about (alleged) "proto-fascism" after the Cordoba House's Leftist co-conspirators spent the last decade goose-stepping at kristallnaght-style gutter riots (masquerading as “peace” protests)?

Patriotic Americans are encourage to Enter the “Leftist-fascist Hall of Shame” and recall what Leftist-fascism looks like.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

So, when is billionaire progressive George Soros financing the unhinged Leftist rent-a-mob rally against ObaMao’s summary execution of three (un-Mirandized) Somali teens at sea? Afterall, that tactic was clearly more “fascist” than our patriotic moistening of KSM, et.al. The one year anniversary of ObaMao’s high seas shooting spree has already passed. Get busy, Leftists.

Rage against the machine, man!

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 4:39 PM | Report abuse

joeff should learn to accept the fact that fascism is Leftist.

For those who wish to explore the subject in greater depth, a useful recent resource would be a book by an expert on Italian Fascism: “The Faces of Janus: Marxism and Fascism in the 20th Century”, by A. James Gregor.
http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Janus-Marxism-Fascism-Twentieth/dp/0300106025

Gregor exhaustively demonstrates that Fascism and Nazism modelled their methods on the atheistic Marxism of Lenin and Stalin; and that the Fascist idea of adding nationalism to socialism was later taken up by Stalin and Mao— so that (in the end) Fascism and Communism were merely twin atheistic Marxist sects. Thus, during the era of their big confrontation, Soviet Russia and Maoist China were perfectly correct in accusing one-another of being “fascists.”

100s of millions of corpses don’t lie. That’s one big steaming pile your commie dogs left in history’s living room. Own it, “progressive” half-wits.

Don’t be a Marxist apologist for Islamo-fascism your whole life, joeff.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 4:42 PM | Report abuse

The motives and actions of Leftist “progressive” apologists for Cordoba House are sinister, and ought to be so recognized by people of good faith. Their reasoning sounds insane because it is, and they are.

For a more scholarly discussion of the phenomenon, read “Unholy Alliance: Radical Islam and the American Left” @
http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Alliance-Radical-Islam-American/dp/089526076X

And try to control your weird paranoia over McCarthy's ghost.

/booga-booga!

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 4:44 PM | Report abuse

I'm OK with the Mosque just as I'm OK with St. Patrick's Cathedral, or the thousands of Jewish Temples that dot NYC.

But here is what really cheeses me off and anyone of you from either side of this debate can chime in on this one.

I do not understand why St. Patrick's Cathedral, the Mosques, Temples, are all off the tax rolls. Listen charity is charity and I don't really have a problem with charitable giving and so members donations to the Churches/Synagogues/Mosques/etc being tax deductible does not both me...however...

WTF should all this massive construction and OWNERSHIP of property not be subject to property taxes?

Seriously...how about one of you righties who call themselves Constitutionalists as well as Christian explain to me if there is separation of church and state why the big religions get to own all the valuable property (useless to those of us who do not believe)and not pay taxes!

Liam jump in on this point and help me out.
Your favorites the Catholics must have billions of dollars in property that has been taken off the tax rolls. The Muslims will be catching up if they keep building Mosques. I say build your Mosque and pay your freaking property tax. Manhattan is mind numblingly valuable real estate to be simply wasting on organized religion!

Posted by: rukidding7 | August 8, 2010 4:53 PM | Report abuse

Must-read Matt Taibbi article on the financial reg legislation and a lot more.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/188551?RS_show_page=0

Prepare to exit pissed.

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 8, 2010 4:58 PM | Report abuse

100s of millions of corpses don’t lie. That’s one big steaming pile your commie dogs left in history’s living room. Own it, “progressive” half-wits.

Don’t be a Marxist apologist for Islamo-fascism your whole life, joeff.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 4:42 PM |
===============================

Dress it up as best you can, simpleton1, but you and "KaddafiDelendaEst" are rowing the same boat.

http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/32791.html

And it sounds the same in the original German.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | August 8, 2010 5:26 PM | Report abuse

@simpleton,

You are up to debating religion because you are atheist. But religious people are not up to debating religion, I assure you. Don't even try it. There is limited debate within a religion and, very gingerly, between theologians. That's not you or me. If you want to p*ss people off, try "debating" religion. If you don't already know that, I don't know what to tell you. It ranks right up there with belching and farting at the dinner table for gaucheness.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | August 8, 2010 6:10 PM | Report abuse

BG, just finished the RS article. I've been putting it off all weekend because I knew I'd be bummed. Yep. It reminds me of Dorgan's drug re-importation amendment that got scuttled in the back rooms of the Senate. Pretty discouraging all around. We just have to keep fighting for better representatives, less lobbying, and camapign finance reform. No wonder Dodd keeps lecturing everyone about not changing the Senate rules, it works to his advantage. I'll be glad when he's gone.

Posted by: lmsinca | August 8, 2010 6:42 PM | Report abuse

lms, we need a new generation of Senators who are more loyal to their constituents and to good governing than they are to Senate formalities. The clubbiness need to end. Glad Dodd is leaving too.

The very best of luck to your daughter as she goes off to CSM. I think she's going to love it. Plus, you get to visit her in Golden....

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 8, 2010 6:49 PM | Report abuse

Who are average folks going to believe? The Leftist idiotarian "ifthethunderdontgetya"? Or their own lying eyes?

All Americans are encouraged to Enter the “Leftist-fascist Hall of Shame” and recall what Leftist-fascism looks like.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

Own the hate-mongering, comrades.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 8, 2010 6:51 PM | Report abuse

@banger909 : To the union members of various local's of New York City. Nothing get's built in your city without you. Work slow down's strikes. Insure that that Mosque is finished in the year2250.


Right...Union workers, which side do you think banger909 would be on when you initiate a job action for better health care, wages, or to support other struggling workers? Where is banger909 on EFCA, for example? How about extending the tax cuts for millionaires?

Aside from spouting inane remarks about the muslim Y, banger909 is engaging in pandering of the rankist sort.

Kadaffi's funny of the day: Marxist apologist for Islamo-fascism. Irony alert. Of course, real marxists (of whom there are precious few, BTW) have absolutely nothing but contempt for fundmentalist religionists of any kind. We're just a bunch of silly citizens following the constitution. Lots has changed since the signing, but religion is not really one of them...

What do these people do when they are not ranting about bogeymen to shred the constitution.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Wait I can see those guys getting in line, right behind Glen Beck!!! I love a parade...

Posted by: srw3 | August 8, 2010 7:18 PM | Report abuse

srw, maybe Jonah "Hitler was a leftist" Goldberg IS the smartest guy in that camp.

Wow, low bar.

Posted by: BGinCHI | August 8, 2010 7:28 PM | Report abuse

@simpleton1:a poor modern track record - a religion that, in the nations where it dominates, would reject these Americans as they are. Simply telling those people they're ignorant bigots isn't going to help. Some of them actually have a point.

Really? What about the recent track record between the Protestants and Catholics in N. Ireland. I would argue that the religious warfare there rivals other religious conflicts of recent times. No Religion has a corner on the crazy. David Koresh or Jim Jones come to mind as recent professed christians who nevertheless did bad things. If we don't judge all Christians by these guys (not to mention the pedophile priest debacle, Shouldn't we close all contact between the clergy and our impressionable youth?) I don't see why a bunch of Saudi self professed Jihadis represent all of the flavors of Islam.

The most juicy irony is the remarkable similarity between Christianists and Islamists in their views of women's equality under the law, in employment, reproductive freedom, political freedom, etc. I would be more worried if these two fundamentalist flavors call a truce to get all of those pesky feminists. I mean feminists claim that women are people, for Allah's/Yaweh's, Christ's sake. Let's not forget to mention their shared desire to infuse secular criminal law and all areas of social life with the reported musings of their preferred sky wizard as interpreted by his/her self-appointed prophets.

Truly pathetic....

Posted by: srw3 | August 8, 2010 8:05 PM | Report abuse

When are you guys going to wakeup? Bin Laden and 19 Arab hijackers were not the perpetrators. The official theory has been thoroughly debunked. Don't believe me? Examine the evidence at http://www.twf.org/News/News911.html

Enver Masud
Founder, The Wisdom Fund

Posted by: twforg | August 8, 2010 9:02 PM | Report abuse

Wow! When can we start passing out the tinfoil hats?

Perhaps twforg and KaddafiDelendaEst can tell us where they purchase their's.

Posted by: rukidding7 | August 8, 2010 9:17 PM | Report abuse

I'll take a Muslim over a BMC any day.

Posted by: hoser3 | August 8, 2010 9:44 PM | Report abuse

Big Mouth Christian

Posted by: hoser3 | August 8, 2010 9:45 PM | Report abuse

hoser3 wrote:
I'll take a Muslim over a BMC any day.
==========
Question is...Would a Muslim take you?

And Mr. Masud,
Interesting web site but all that it contained has been "thoroughly debunked" also. As have all of the many other 9/11 conspiracy/inside job sites.

Posted by: gravitysucks | August 8, 2010 10:16 PM | Report abuse

Thanks BG, she's leaving in the morning. A friend is driving with her and then we're flying her back to FL, where she's in grad school. Our first road trip is already in the works for early October. We're taking her dog out to her, no room this trip, her car is loaded. She's nervous, excited and intimidated a little by the whole thing, they're expecting a lot from her. She'll do great though.

Posted by: lmsinca | August 8, 2010 10:19 PM | Report abuse

Wake up IGMO America I will put my 2 cent worth in on this. If I were the man in charge there would be no Iraq,iran,pakastan,afganasthn NO.koria, or any other of those countryes that gives us crap.There would not be any of them within 10miles of ground zero and if they did not like that they are free to go to any other country they like.This is America put your heart in it or get your donky out of it.

Posted by: br5491 | August 9, 2010 12:01 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for letting us know how profoundly unamerican you are, br5491.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Posted by: akaoddjob | August 9, 2010 2:59 AM | Report abuse

I wonder what would happen to intertubes traffic if Sarah Palin were to leave Todd for a gay relationship with a black Muslim woman and then take up the cause of Palestinian rights.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 7:35 AM | Report abuse

[srw3 sneered: "real marxists... have absolutely nothing but contempt for fundmentalist religionists"]

Pernicious nonsense! Americans saw no "contempt" on their faces as billionaire "progressive" Soros marched his Leftist-fascist rent-a-mobs alongside Islamo-fascists at pro-terrorism rallies (masquerading as "peace" protests) around the country over the past decade.
http://zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

Leftists are immune to evidence. They live silly delusions.

And don't even try that Marxist "tiny minority" canard.

Own it, Leftist.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 7:38 AM | Report abuse

Folks - might I recommend the anthropological approach to this Kadda chap. Observe the behaviors but avoid interacting. I once saw a fellow spit on the a llama and so the fellow spit back. He thought he was teaching the llama a lesson.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 7:52 AM | Report abuse

[br5491 drooled: "If I were the man in charge there would be no Iraq,iran,pakastan,afganasthn"]

Genocide incitement is a transparent Leftist hoax tactic called a “moby”.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moby

The term is derived from the name of the liberal musician Moby, who famously suggested in February of 2004 that Left-wing activists engage in this type of subterfuge: “For example, you can go on all the pro-life chat rooms and say you’re an outraged right-wing voter and that you know that George Bush drove an ex-girlfriend to an abortion clinic and paid for her to get an abortion. Then you go to an anti-immigration Web site chat room and ask, ‘What’s all this about George Bush proposing amnesty for illegal aliens?’”

The fact that hate hoaxing (intended to smear anti-jihadist Americans) is epidemic among Leftists illustrates the nature of this wolf cry campaign (masquerading as br5491).
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200408/crying-wolf-fabricated-crimes

Try harder, Moby wannabees.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 7:53 AM | Report abuse

Sorry, "spit on by a llama" that ought to have read.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 7:55 AM | Report abuse

Depressing column by Krugman this morning on the very real consequences (returning paved roads to gravel, city lights turned off, etc) of the anti-government ideology of the last three decades.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/opinion/09krugman.html?_r=1&hp

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 7:58 AM | Report abuse

[bernielatham fantasized: "I wonder what would happen to intertubes traffic if Sarah Palin were to leave Todd for a gay relationship with a black Muslim woman and then take up the cause of Palestinian rights."]

John Edwards should be indicted for walking around with that phallic appendage growing out of his neck. Edwards cheated on his faithful wife while she was undergoing breast cancer treatment; then shamelessly disowned his mistress’ “love” child. Yet Leftists still muster the temerity to drive around in Jettas, comically sporting KERRY/EDWARDS bumper stickers.

When you witness Obama toadies (like bernielatham) up on their hind legs howling at Sarah Palin, understand the severe psychological transference which animates these obsessive Palin Derangement Syndrome sufferers.

For more hilarity, enter the Leftist Concourse of Hypocrisy @
http://zombietime.com/concourse_of_hypocrisy/

Own it, bernie.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 8:01 AM | Report abuse

And, at least in passing, I think we all ought to offer up thanks or sighs or something in that the news is no longer all oil spill, all the time. Hopefully, someone will be able to get enough insider info to do a good book on this incredible story.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 8:07 AM | Report abuse

Scotland's Catholic leader demonstrates why his faith, in its clear support of terrorists and in it's anti-American hatred, should not be physically represented within 12.4 miles of ground zero...

"The leader of Scotland's Roman Catholic church waded into the furious international row today, launching a caustic attack on US politicians who have criticised the early release of the Lockerbie bomber.

Cardinal Keith O'Brien contrasted the "merciful" decision of the Scottish government to release Abdelbaset al-Megrahi on compassionate grounds with the culture of "vengeance and retribution" which permeated the US justice system. Writing in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper, he also said Scottish ministers were right to decline a US request to give evidence to senators investigating Megrahi's release. "We shouldn't be crawling out to America, or having them come here and questioning us on our own territory," he said."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/08/lockerbie-scottish-catholic-leader-attacks-us

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 8:18 AM | Report abuse

To listen to Leftists, you'd think that opposition to Cordoba House is the hobgoblin of a few small minds on the right. Racists, fascists, Islamophobes, Neanderthals-- the whole Star Wars cantina of boogeymen and cranks stand opposed to innocent Imam Rauf.

Left out of this fairly naked effort to demonize the vast majority of Americans is the simple fact that Cordoba House support has tanked in the polls for weeks.

The latest poll? By a margin of 61 to 26 percent, New Yorkers oppose the proposal to build the Cordoba House.
http://www.siena.edu/uploadedfiles/home/parents_and_community/community_page/sri/independent_research/Imm0710%20Release.pdf

“Large majorities of all New Yorkers, every party, region and age give a thumbs-down to the Cordoba House Mosque being built near the Ground Zero site,” said Dr. Don Levy, the institute’s director, in a press release.

Thus, their silly demonization campaign should be accepted for what it is-- delusional and disconnected.

Support the will of the people, Mayor Bloomberg.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 8:18 AM | Report abuse

Well, goddamn. Tony Judt has died. Any of you familiar with his writing will likely feel as saddened as I am.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/aug/07/historian-tony-judt-dies

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 8:21 AM | Report abuse

Scotland's Cardinal Quisling should stick to his knitting-- and follow his Lord's admonition to "render unto Caesar, the things that are Caesar's."

Quislings don’t confront real evil; and hate those who do. You can see this on almost any school playground. The kid who confronts the school bully is often resented more than the bully. Whether out of guilt over their own cowardice or out of fear that the one who confronted the bully will provoke the bully to lash out more, those who refuse to confront the bully often resent the one who does.

Today, Euro-Quislings express that cowardly contempt for those of us who take a hard line with Qaddafi. It’s ever our fault (you see) for provoking the bully. Better to remain supine while Q satisfies himself prison-raping EU nurses; tormenting American widows and orphans; parading his murderous henchmen triumphantly.

The Quisling answer: Display some obsequious false “compassion”, stay quiet, and hope the crocs eat you last.

There’s a word for that: Cowardice.

Own it, Cardinal Quisling.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 8:26 AM | Report abuse

The irony (clearly lost on Scotland's Cardinal Quisling) is that Kaddafi was the IRA. Kaddafi financed, supported, directed, trained and armed the IRA for decades. They were among his favorite Marxist hired goons.

Up to 6,000 innocents were killed or injured with Libyan supplied guns and explosives. And many IRA bombs employed the same Semtex that sent what was left of Clipper Maid of the Seas crashing into Christmas dinner tables in tiny Lockerbie (incinerating 11 Scots on the ground). Kaddafi has accepted liability and responsibility for both IRA terrorism AND Lockerbie terrorism– along with many other mass murders of innocents orchestrated by his terror-state.

Kaddafi’s IRA proxies might still be in business if not for the tireless efforts of the Victims of Pan Am 103 to sanction and isolate Libya. But (apparently) no good deed goes unpunished– at least among the cheap Scotch-adled SNP brains of Kenny MacAskill fans.

IRA and Lockerbie bombing victims properly hold Kaddafi responsible for his bloody atrocities. They can no longer afford to ignore the kabuki theatre of Libyan state-sponsored terrorism.

Guilt-riddled Scottish priests can blame America all they want– meanwhile the jihadists continue their demographic conquest of your quaint little island.

Good luck with that, Cardinal Quisling.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 8:28 AM | Report abuse

Ha'aretz does straight news coverage on the Zakaria/ADL story...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/cnn-host-returns-adl-award-over-group-s-opposition-to-ground-zero-mosque-1.306527

Once again, I'll point out how superior the journalism of Israel's oldest paper is to what the rightwing media here offer up.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 8:30 AM | Report abuse

I suspected there would be a pretty abrupt change in tone and in journalistic standards when I clicked over from Ha'aretz to NRO. But my god!
http://www.nationalreview.com/

Little I can think of would point out more profoundly the differences between news or journalism and propaganda

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 8:35 AM | Report abuse

lmao! bernie didn't get Soros' memo. Ha'aretz is a mouthpiece for the Zio-Nazi regime, remember?
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

Careful, bernie. You'll lose that "progressive" membership card.

tool

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 8:35 AM | Report abuse

boring

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 8:36 AM | Report abuse

lightweight

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 9, 2010 8:38 AM | Report abuse

All, morning roundup posted:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/the_morning_plum_69.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | August 9, 2010 8:41 AM | Report abuse

And we continue to Bill Kristol at the Weekly Standard doing the predictable...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/shut-he-explained

Taking a break from unpacking boxes yesterday, I flipped on FOX and there were Kristol and Liz Cheney (Liz guest hosted last week too). Fair and balanced, those two.

As a little mental exercise, I tried to imagine what the media might look like if it actually were liberal in the manner charged on a daily basis. A fair counterpart to Kristol/Cheney/Wallace would be Chomsky and Chelsea Clinton on a panel with Amy Goodman - every week (with a regular column in the NYT or WP by Chomsky to get the balance closer). One can draw out such a parallel even more closely (given Fox's daily programming not to mention talk radio) and you arrive at an imagined scenario that demonstrates who incredibly warped is the claim of 'liberal media' in the US.

Posted by: bernielatham | August 9, 2010 8:50 AM | Report abuse

@kadaffi:The latest poll? By a margin of 61 to 26 percent, New Yorkers oppose the proposal to build the Cordoba House.


It is amazing what constant demagoguery can do to public opinion. Polling on the poll tax, jim crow, and the internment of Japanese americans showed their undeniable local popular support, despite their unconstitutionality and moral bankruptcy.
But,But,But,But,But,But, this is completely different....911, 911, 911.....ohnoes...

Anticonstitutionalism and moral bankruptcy are K's calling cards...

Posted by: srw3 | August 9, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

I'm not anti-islam, I'm anti hate group! Any group of people targeting another group based on personal attributes is a hate group. Skinheads target people of color, Fundies target abortion clinics, and the followers of Islam think all gays should get beheaded; they are all hate groups! I'm betting it's easier to swallow the whole "tolerance" thing if you're not one of the groups they target for beheading. People who exhibit intolerance shouldn't be demanding tolerance, and my gay flames will never be extinguished by the cult of Islam.

P.S. Have YOU drawn Mohammed today?

Posted by: WhatAreYouPeopleSmoking | August 14, 2010 3:54 PM | Report abuse

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