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"Ground Zero mosque" war shows battle over legacy of 9/11 remains unsettled

Please watch this new Web video from New York gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio on the "Ground Zero mosque," and note the use of footage of 9/11 for political purposes:

The ad, not surprisingly, falsely says the "mosque" will be built "at" Ground Zero, and many of the interviews of men and women in the street are shot close enough to the site that you can see construction machinery in the background.

But what's really arresting here is the use of footage of the 9/11 attacks. As Maggie Haberman notes, it used to be considered politically unacceptable for this imagery to be used in political ads or literature. After all, as foes of the "mosque" like to say, this is hallowed ground.

There's an interesting paradox here worth noting. While the Lazio camp apparently thinks enough time has passed since the attacks to permit the political use of this imagery, memories of the attacks still remain fresh enough to make the "mosque" a potent political issue.

More broadly, the war over the Islamic center shows the battle over the legacy of 9/11 remains unsettled nine years after the attacks. Those who support the center had hoped that the passions around 9/11 had subsided to the point where the disaster's legacy would no longer impede upon, and might even assist, the case that gestures of religious tolerance and an embrace of pluralism are essential weapons in the war to prevent more attacks of this magnitude. Even if such a gesture took the form of supporting a center devoted to the study of Islam near the gash in the ground where the attack itself took place.

But public opposition to the project shows that the argument over the real meaning of 9/11 is far from resolved, and that public emotions about the disaster remain too raw for that case to break through. And who knows how long has to pass before that might happen.

UPDATE, 11:03 a.m.: A new Siena poll of New Yorkers finds opposition to the project still running strong. Also: The above post was edited slightly for clarity.

By Greg Sargent  |  August 18, 2010; 10:21 AM ET
Categories:  2010 elections , Foreign policy and national security  
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Comments

We interrupt your regularly scheduled mosque commentary for this special report, about the mosque.

Posted by: CalD | August 18, 2010 10:40 AM | Report abuse

CalD and others -- it's my last post on the mosque, unless something important happens.

Posted by: Greg Sargent | August 18, 2010 10:44 AM | Report abuse

My understanding is that the people who actually live in Manhattan favor the mosque by 5 to 3. But I could be wrong.

Should the community center be built? Shouldn't that be up to the community in question?

Most of these right-wingers who are so against this mosque spend a great deal of time disparaging New Yorkers. NY, you see, isn't a part of the "heartland" where "real Americans" live. Yet they want to control what happens in the place they hate. Figures.

I don't care where they build a mosque; this isn't any of my business. That said, given that pretty much everyone with a brain says there is no legal way to stop them from building, what, pray tell, is the mechanism by which the GOP aims to stop construction?

They intend to, and are, using bullying and nativist intimidation. And that, my friends, is straight up wrong. It is unacceptable and un-American and it does force those of us who actually give a darn about freedom to take a stand on an issue that, if given a choice, most of us really wouldn't much care about.

As to using 9/11 and the mosque to demagogue this; I can't say I'm surprised.

And if you guys think this current batch of nativist, xenophobic fear-mongering is bad just wait until August of 2012. There will be so many Republicans blowing on dog whistles that Ceaser Millan will have a mental breakdown.

Posted by: nisleib | August 18, 2010 10:46 AM | Report abuse

Greg, this one's for you since it's apparently your last post. I believe that you want to see leadership on this issue and these words remind us of what that actually means. This is also the missing component in my view of some of the comments and positions from both sides.

In speaking about his opposition to the Vietnam War, Martin Luther King, Jr. reminded us of the role of moral leadership in times of controversy.

"I'm not a consensus leader... I do not determine what is right and wrong by looking at the budget of my organization or by taking a Gallup poll of the majority opinion. Ultimately a genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus. On some positions a coward has asked the question is it safe? Expediency asks the question, is it politic? Vanity asks the question, is it popular? But conscience asks the question is it right? And there come a time when one must take a position that is neither safe nor politic nor popular but he must take it because conscience tells him it is right, and that is where I find myself today."

Posted by: lmsinca | August 18, 2010 10:54 AM | Report abuse

Greg - As long as the right-wingers keep pushing this issue you kind of need to keep pushing back.

Fighting lies and bullying with silence doesn't work. If you can't make a principled stand online, and pushback against the xenophobic hate mongers, where can you make a stand?

This is your blog. Don't let the commentators push you around. If you feel like posting about the mosque, then post about the mosque.

That said, this issue is depressing; it undermines what America is supposed to stand for. I wish it would go away, but your not commenting on it won't make it go away.

Posted by: nisleib | August 18, 2010 10:56 AM | Report abuse

@CalD: When I saw this post, I said: "I'm going to try and beat CalD in saying something about it." Like, "Oh boy! I bet CalD can't wait!"

But you were too fast for me.

Now, as to the article: "The ad, not surprisingly, falsely says the 'mosque' will be built 'at' Ground Zero"

Not to quibble, but while a community center is not a mosque (even if it includes one; most hospitals have prayer chapels, and we don't call them churches, we don't even think it's reasonable to do so), the Burlington Coat Factory--largely destroyed by debris from one of the planes crashing into the WTC--is reasonably characterized at being "at" Ground Zero. That's not a moral judgement (I think any Muslim Community Center Exclusion Zone) is silly, it's just equally arbitrary to say a building, destroyed by debris from 9/11, is not "at" Ground Zero in a meaningful sense.

"While the Lazio camp apparently thinks enough time has passed since the attacks to permit the political use of this imagery"

Conservatives have long been for remembering 9/11 through the use of actual archive footage. I think he's planning on getting points just for having the chutzpah to do it. Which he probably will.

Could also be a hail mary pass.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | August 18, 2010 10:58 AM | Report abuse

"just wait until August of 2012. There will be so many Republicans blowing on dog whistles"

Well, if Dick Armey's "Tea Party Manifesto" comes to pass (see WSJ op-ed yesterday), by then the Tea Party will have completed their "hostile takeover" of the GOP....and we will surely be living in interesting times...no doubt about it.

Posted by: suekzoo1 | August 18, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

thanks for that quote, lmsinca. says a lot.

and nisleib, I appreciate the sentiment. :)

Posted by: Greg Sargent | August 18, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

DESCENT INTO CRAZY:

Ground Zero Mosque ->

9/11 Mosque ->

OBAMA VICTORY MOSQUE!

Yes, that is what the extreme Republican Tea Party NOW CALLS the Islamic Center.

Here is the latest FILTH being spread on the internet in underground email lists.

-----

Barack Obama, Mahmoud al-Zahar (the co-founder of and Hamas) and our enemies abroad are in total agreement. The Ground Zero Victory Mosque must be built.

Of course, the liberal spin doctors are already at work and are desperately trying to distort what is really happening here... but don't allow yourself to be fooled or distracted from what is really going on.

Barack Obama - who, by the way, has never seen fit to even attend a National Day of Prayer event - hosted a Ramadan Dinner at the White House and, with cameras rolling, gave his enthusiastic support to the construction of a Ground Zero Victory Mosque. He didn't simply endorse it... he went out of his way to endorse it.

But he didn't have the guts to come right out and say it. Hiding behind the 1st Amendment, as if it were his mother's skirt, he told those in attendance: "Let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances."

Does anyone really believe that Barack Obama made that statement because he considers himself to be a champion of religious liberties and the United States Constitution? Of course not.

Obama used the 1st Amendment as a ruse... a red-herring. He desperately wanted and needed to tell the world, and our enemies abroad, that he supports the construction of the Ground Zero Victory Mosque. He thought that THEY would surely get the message and that the American people would be too stupid to realize what he was doing if he deceptively wrapped his endorsement in the skin of the 1st Amendment.

-----

This, my friends, is an email from MAINSTREAM ESTABLISHMENT CONSERVATIVES going to the base.

This should be totally unacceptable to any American.

If the Democratic Party sent out an email of such an insulting nature, you can be sure I would think twice about pulling the lever for that party ever again. MODERATE REPUBLICANS: *THIS* is what *YOU* are voting for in November. Thanks a lot for approving of such disgusting views. Moderate Republicans who vote for Republicans are ACCOMPLICES in a game of hate and vitriol that accomplishes nothing but division, enmity, and the wholesale destruction of the American character. Again, thanks, thanks a lot for supporting these people. Moderate Republicans, you should be ASHAMED at your support of these disgusting sorry people and their political party.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | August 18, 2010 11:02 AM | Report abuse

suekzoo1 - While Dick Army may have the perfect name for the leader of the Tea Party, the Tea Party will never take over the GOP.

Why? Because the Tea Party is, and always has been, the GOP. What the GOP needed after the 2008 election was a way to rally around the Republican party, but the Republican brand was more toxic than Lindsey Lohan's liver. So they built a front group (with the help of Fox News and hate radio) to carry the GOP's water.

Posted by: nisleib | August 18, 2010 11:09 AM | Report abuse

More from the same email:

-----

Shortly after 9-11, George Bush uttered what is now a famous comment to a man in the crowd at Ground Zero; "I can hear you! The rest of the world hears you! And the people - and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon."

It's a good thing Obama wasn't president back them... he probably would have said something to effect of... "I hear you, but I'm not here to comment on the wisdom of those who made the decision to slaughter 3,000 American citizens in cold-blood without provocation...."

Obama needs to decide once and for all... is he President of the United States or is he the President of All Those Who Oppose the United States? If he had a ounce of integrity, he'd fall on his knees and beg the people of the United States forgiveness... but don't hold your breath.

-----

DISGUSTING.

I call on every Moderate Republican and Independent to repudiate any and every Republican candidate who uses rhetoric like this. And they are out there. YOU moderates need to do YOUR jobs by calling out members of your party who have lost all sensibility. Or don't and continue to be accomplices to some of the most despicable, disgusting, demeaning rhetoric many of us have ever seen.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | August 18, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Many opponents of Cordoba House cite the feelings of the victims' family members' feelings. Well, how does Mr. Lazio think those family members will feel when they are sitting at home enjoying a relaxing evening of television and this commercial with the 9-11 imagery comes on?

Posted by: BrAdams | August 18, 2010 11:13 AM | Report abuse

I'm really surprised that Greg Sargent has nothing to say about the fact the Majority Leader of the US Senate, a Democrat, has come out in opposition to the mosque. Oh wait, no I'm not. Greg Sargent is partisan hack who doesn't deserve this forum.

Posted by: CW13 | August 18, 2010 11:25 AM | Report abuse

Kevin, re Lazio: "Could also be a hail mary pass."

Apparently, not working? Check this from Dave Weigel:

Poll: Mosque Controversy Not Helping GOP in New York

The first politician for a major elected office who came out against the "ground zero mosque" was Rick Lazio, the man who lost the New York U.S. Senate race to Hillary Clinton in 2000, who's making a comeback bid to run for governor. Lazio asked for a mosque probe more than a month ago, challenged frontrunner Andrew Cuomo to a debate about the mosque -- basically, he's milked it for all it's worth.

So what does it mean that this isn't helping Lazio at all?

The new Siena Poll finds that New Yorkers (everyone in the state) oppose the mosque by a 63-27 margin; they defend the constitutional right to build it by a 64-28 margin. At the same time, Lazio trails Cuomo by 34 points. He's down 2 points -- within the margin of error, but not what you'd expect if the Great Mosque Debate of 2010 was hitting home. He leads his closest rival, businessman and tea party candidate Carl Paladino, by 33 points. Last month, he led by 41 points.

Funny enough, New York may not be the best test case for how the mosque plays politically. Cuomo has been the favorite to win this election for more than a year. But if it was truly explosive, wouldn't Lazio be gaining something?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2010/08/18/poll-mosque-controversy-not-helping-gop-in-new-york.aspx

Posted by: suekzoo1 | August 18, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

This kind of thing is why I've been skeptical of non-NY area Republicans saying they're only being sensitive to the families.

They were equally insensitive during the 2008 Republican National Convention, where they also used footage of the attacks as a campaign prop. They are so sensitive to the families of the deceased that they use the footage of the deceased being murdered for political gain.

Posted by: dkp01 | August 18, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

@CW13: "I'm really surprised that Greg Sargent has nothing to say about the fact the Majority Leader of the US Senate"

Greg had a post up about it the minute the news came out. Go to the main page and scroll down, or search for "Harry Reid". I think you'll probably find it.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | August 18, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Oh.My. (also from Weigel)

Ann Coulter Bounced From Right-Wing Conference Over Appearance at "Homocon"

WorldNetDaily, the conservative site that's become America's #1 source for information about Barack Obama's citizenship and hard money investment schemes, has revoked Ann Coulter's invitation to speak at the web site's national conference. The reason: Her high-profile September 25 appearance coming up at GOProud's "Homocon."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/default.aspx

Posted by: suekzoo1 | August 18, 2010 11:29 AM | Report abuse

What better way to avoid politizing 9/11 while defending 1st Amendment freedom of religion than to have the Speaker of the House demand a Federal probe of those exercising their 1st Amendment right to free speech?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41204.html

=====
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Tuesday said she supports an investigation into groups opposing the building of a mosque near ground zero in New York.

Pelosi told San Francisco’s KCBS radio that “there is no question there is a concerted effort to make this a political issue by some.”

“I join those who have called for looking into how is this opposition to the mosque being funded,” she said. “How is this being ginned up?”
=====

Does that mean that Pelosi wants Harry Reid investigated, too? Rep. Michael Arcuri (D-NY)? This should be fun!

One might think that Pelsoi would want a peek at where the Park51 will be getting its funds to build the mosque, especially since the State Department is footing the bill for a tour conducted by the imam at the head of the project. Instead, Pelosi wants the power of the government directed at people taking political positions. That goes well beyond any supposed extremism by the mosque’s opponents, most (but not all) of whom acknowledge that the property owners have the right to build on their lot anything that meets code, but want to express their opposition to the plans. Pelosi would take this opportunity to use the government as a thought police to silence dissent.

The silver lining in this dark cloud is that at least Leftists will finally acknowledge these Democrat fascists for what they are-- won't they?

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 18, 2010 11:29 AM | Report abuse

@Suekzoo: "Ann Coulter Bounced From Right-Wing Conference Over Appearance at 'Homocon'"

Heh. I gotta side with Coulter over Worldnet Daily. She's also calls the birthers cranks, and says they're just wrong, so maybe WorldNet doesn't like that, either. Speaking at Homocon shouldn't surprise anybody-- Coulter has always loved the Pink Pistols.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | August 18, 2010 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Quislings have the audacity to climb up on his hind legs and howl about (alleged) “politicizing” of terrorist atrocities after their ANSWER co-conspirators spent the last decade goose-stepping at kristallnaght-style gutter riots (masquerading as “peace” protests).

Patriotic Americans are encourage to Enter the “Leftist-fascist Hall of Shame” and remember what “politicizing” terrorism looks like.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

So, when is billionaire progressive George Soros financing the unhinged Leftist rent-a-mob rally against ObaMao’s summary execution of three (un-Mirandized) Somali teens at sea? Afterall, that tactic was clearly more “fascist” than our patriotic moistening of KSM, et.al. The one year anniversary of ObaMao’s high seas shooting spree has already passed. Get busy.

Rage against the machine, Quislings!

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 18, 2010 11:36 AM | Report abuse

Enquiring minds want to know....


How has Rudy Guiliani managed to stay out of the fray?

Posted by: suekzoo1 | August 18, 2010 11:36 AM | Report abuse

Why is it "insensitive" or "wrong" to build a mosque at the proposed site? The answer inevitably involves the implied premise that somehow all Muslims bear responsibility for 9/11. You cannot get to the conclusion that it is wrong without that hidden premise. This is anti-Muslim hatred hiding behind false logic. The people who stirred this up are well aware of this. They include Charles Krauthammer of the Washington Post, Bret Stephens, Daniel Henninger and Dorothy Rabinowitz of the Wall Street Journal editorial board, William Crystal of the Weekly Standard and Rich Lowry of the National Review. These people will forever bear the burden of having deliberately loosed the dogs of anti-Islamic hatred.

Posted by: mmurray2 | August 18, 2010 11:38 AM | Report abuse

@sue: "Cuomo has been the favorite to win this election for more than a year. But if it was truly explosive, wouldn't Lazio be gaining something?"

Yeah, but, really, how many people anywhere--much less NYC--are going to vote based on an issue like this, or certainly change a vote based on what goes into the old Burlington Coat Factory? I have a hard time seeing "mosque" opposition as being a way to win votes in New York.

Even those opposed to a "ground zero mosque" are probably even more opposed to being unemployed and losing their house. Whichever way they decide to vote, I think those issues are the ones that burn brightest. Mosquedrama is, at best, a reality-show kind of distraction. At worst, it reveals that ugly, opportunistic, exploitive nature of some politicians, and the general unprettiness of the mob.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | August 18, 2010 11:39 AM | Report abuse

[mmurray2 lied: "This is anti-Muslim hatred hiding behind false logic."]

I don't know how many times I need to repeat the message before it sinks into the thick skulls of Greg and his Quisling toadies here-- but my patience is spent with these lying, slandering idiotarian Quislings.

This has NOTHING to do with intolerance of mosques and everything to do with the apartheid Islamo-supremacism of Cordoba House, in particular. Somehow, I think Greg (and his Quisling toadies) wouldn't support neo-pagans' "right" to erect eternal Crann Tara monuments next to MLK memorials.

But when patriotic Americans object to stealth jihadists-- and (yes) that accurately describes the Cordoba House cabal-- opening a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium (and jihadi recruitment center) on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero-- Quisling hypocrits shriek with indignation!

American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Americans to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Cordoba House jihadists than insincere bromides and disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia law, as practiced by the Cordoba House cabal and their financial sponsors.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI_Blog/21/The-St-Petersburg-Declaration

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of the sharia law vendors of Cordoba House supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists-- but don’t hold your breath.

When will Quislings support Secular Islam advocates' right to live free from the sharia law intimidation of Cordoba House Islamo-supremacists?

Be advised these sharia-fascists have their eyes on your throat, too.

"Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!" [Matthew 23:24]

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 18, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

All, here's some info on the economic situation of the family that Obama met with this morning:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/the_white_houses_case_to_voter.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | August 18, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

Ethan that was truly disgusting

Posted by: SDJeff | August 18, 2010 11:41 AM | Report abuse

@Kaddafi: I think you had an interest point about Pelosi's attack on the anti-mosque crowd.

However, the constant insistence on calling everybody "Quislings" is getting kind of old, and doesn't communicate anything. It's not my call, but if you have a point, I would hope that you would make it, rather than seeing how many times you can repeat the word "Quisling".

I mean, seriously, what's the point?

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | August 18, 2010 11:43 AM | Report abuse

@cw13 We appreciate comments from all sides but we have little patience with obvious ignorance. I use ignorant not in the pejorative sense but rather the literal.

Within hours of Reid's statements Greg was all over it. Please if you're just dropping by to try and drop insults with no basis in fact you should stick to Fox/Red State/Drudge or somewhere else where FACTS do not matter.

Posted by: rukidding7 | August 18, 2010 11:43 AM | Report abuse

With all of the bigotry and racism surround this mosque issue, I'm convinced that if this being called Jesus really exists, posseses all of the benevolent qualities associated with him throughout history and does finally keep his word and return, the only Christians in this country he would be even remotely interested in meeting and talking with would be the Amish. They're real Christians. I don't know what the hell the rest of you are.

Posted by: Byrd3 | August 18, 2010 11:59 AM | Report abuse

[Byrd3 sneered: "With all of the bigotry and racism surround this mosque issue"]

Racism? Remind readers again, what "race" is Islam?

I’d also like to point out how bigotted, ignorant and intolerant it is of Quislings (in both parties) to condemn the spiritual commitment of Muslims who faithfully obey Islam by observing “honor killing” fatwas.

By what authority do Quislings excommunicate (takfir) devout jihadists when they practice “honor killings”; support Hamas; and enforce the sharia fatwas, endorsed by the Corboba House sharia law advocates?

Again, the prerogative to issue apostacy fatwas is granted only to Islam’s prophet, or authoritative representatives of the Ummah— which are the Quislings invoking?

Have Cordoba House’s handlers in the Apartheid Kingdom of Saudi Arabia or the Muslim Brotherhood approved any anti-honor fatwas?

Don’t take my word for it: “Honor Killing” is absolutely Islamic.
http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm

Own it, Quislings.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 18, 2010 12:07 PM | Report abuse

"Ethan that was truly disgusting"

Yes.

I feel like it's the kind of thing you don't want to read, but we HAVE TO KNOW what the Republicans are talking about in their sub-channels.

THIS is the kind of rhetoric that enables Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin.

We MUST not only make ourselves aware of the worst-of-the-worst, but we must ADDRESS the flagrant use of these lists as purveyors of hatred and bigotry.

I called on Moderate Republicans to reject these writings.

None have.

It goes to show where our moderate "Friends" truly have their allegiences. It is ALL about the Republican Party for them. Regardless of how disgusting and bigoted the rhetoric, regardless of how "sensible" some "moderates" seem, people like Kevin_Willis will still support the worst-of-the-worst at the voting booth.

And we need to remember that and expose them as the fanatic extremists they are. Yes, even the moderates. Simply by voting for Republicans, they are no longer to be considered moderates, but ACCOMPLICES in bigotry, hate, and fear-mongering.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | August 18, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

[mmurray2 sneered: "the implied premise that somehow all Muslims bear responsibility for 9/11."]

Quislings have apparently been in a coma (both before and after 9/11) since they appear to think 9/11 was the only incident of Muslims attacking non-Muslims. If they weren’t in a coma, there’s no excuse for such gross stupidity.

Muslims must take some responsibility for their global jihad when thousands of their co-religionists over the past two decades kill thousands of innocents of every religion around the world; and when they deprive non-Muslims of their human rights in 57 of 57 Muslim governed countries.

Look. American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for folks to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Muslims than disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia tradition, as practiced in Iran, Gaza, Kashmir, Malaysia, the Paris banlieue… and (pointedly) Cordoba House in NYC.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @ SecularIslam.org.

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of the vast majority of (allegedly) “peaceful” American Muslims supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists… but don’t hold your breath.

+15K deadly Islamo-supremacist attacks since 9/11 don’t lie. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Don't ape the propaganda lies of Islamo-supremacists your whole life, murray2.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 18, 2010 12:12 PM | Report abuse

yet to see a person of standing knowledge and character against the issue

when immoral people like Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Pam Gallagher etc oppose any issue

majority has to sit up and think that there must be something good being opposed by by these characters

-one who claimed her 15 year old daughter child out of wedlock as her own

-a man who abandoned his wife and children

- a strip joint hooker

they are just making Islam more visible, and would increase conversion, like it happened after 9/11

Posted by: chaffcutter | August 18, 2010 12:22 PM | Report abuse

[ethan whined: "we must ADDRESS the flagrant use of these lists as purveyors of hatred and bigotry."]

"Disgusting"? I've read your cited text twice. It certainly is rhetorically hyperbolic; but there's nothing inherently hateful or bigoted in those sentiments.

Indeed, the remarks illustrate two obvious truths; 1) Obama isn't courageous enough to take a firm stand on the mosque issue; and 2) Obama is our first "post-American" President.

For those interested in a more scholarly discussion of the phenomenon, read "The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War on America" @
http://www.amazon.com/Post-American-Presidency-Obama-Administrations-America/dp/1439189307

Don't be a slander-monger on behalf of Islamo-supremacism your whole life, ethan.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 18, 2010 12:23 PM | Report abuse

Regarding the earlier post by lmsinca, reminding us of the Rev. Martin Luther King's explanation for taking a stand against the Vietnam War. I am struck by how Dr. King's comments were so similar in effect to those of the man for whom he was named: "Here I stand. I can do no other." Just one of those interesting historical coincidences.

Posted by: gwollberg | August 18, 2010 12:25 PM | Report abuse


"-one who claimed her 15 year old daughter child out of wedlock as her own"

Hey, chaffcutter is a "womber"!

Cool!

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | August 18, 2010 12:26 PM | Report abuse

@suek

"How has Rudy Guiliani managed to stay out of the fray?"

That remark took my mind OT to a fact I read about yesterday. This time 4 years ago ole Rudy was the leader in every poll of R's to be the R nominee in 08. Of course Hilary was also all but anointed as the Dem nominee.
At least Hilary fought a valiant race right down to the end.

Rudy on the other hand was saved by Fred Thompson. If it wasn't for the blustery buffoon Thompson...Rudy would have been the biggest loser and the biggest joke in that R primary race.

But I do get your question Sue. For awhile Rudy seemed to have co-opted the position of worst pandering demagague in the U.S. and it's strange to see him miss an opportunity for grandstanding...something he obviously loves to do. It seems Newt has taken Rudy's title.

Posted by: rukidding7 | August 18, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

KaddafiDelendaEst, your brain is poisoned with ignorance. I hope you find a cure for your hallucinations and deviant extremism and bigotry. Try reading the Bible sometime.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | August 18, 2010 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Its far from clear how much the oppostion to the mosque is really rooted in 9/11 and how much is just using 9/11 as an excuse for those looking for someone to hate. George Bush used 9/11 to help justify the choice of war against an Islamic country. It is far from clear that this case is any different. That is the standard mix of those just looking for someone to hate, those who still think the Christian West has some priviledged right to rule the world, those still intolerant of anyone who rejects their particular sect of Christiantity, and those just looking for some new Crusade to justify their particular need to find somebody to fight in some form of mortal combat.

Posted by: dnjake | August 18, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

for all the Muslim haters out there. either propose a constitutional amendment exempting Islam from freedom of religion as a terrorist organization and rounding up all Muslims and deporting them, or shut up. They have religious freedom unless and until they actually commit a crime. Those who haven't aren't responsible for those who do, and don't have to curtail their rights to avoid offending bigots who want to treat all Muslims as terrorists.

Posted by: JoeT1 | August 18, 2010 1:44 PM | Report abuse

To call Rick Lazio scum would be an insult to scum.

Posted by: koolkat_1960 | August 18, 2010 1:46 PM | Report abuse

The fact that the developers are adamant in building this mosque on this particular spot and refusal to consider any one of the attractive alternatives offered despite the tsunami of stirred emotions is evidence supporting the worst of our fears.

Posted by: abrahamhab1 | August 18, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse

Unfortunately, the moderate followers of Islam did not speak out and take control of the true message of Islam and their silent voices left a big opening which the terrorists filled with hate and violence leaving the world with a bitter taste in their mouths.

It wasn't just 9/11, but years of suicide bombings from Israel to Great Britan and beyond that have hijacked the true message of Islam.

Unfortunately, seeing that it is still a tender spot for many, the decision to build at this site is somewhat insensitive, but, of course, they have the right to build, afterall, this is the USA. Hopefully, if it is built, things will calm down, but the other is also possible and that is that the community center will only be a target for those who cannot leave well enough alone.

But, let's be clear, nothing can ever diminish what happened on 9/11. And, what really happened on 9/11? The world experienced the murderous lunacy of violent perverse men, it witnessed the horrfic death of innocent people at he hands of these perverse men, and it witnessed the miracle and grace and beauty of the courageous men and women who decided to do their duty and fulfill their work ethic, by walking toward and into a blazing inferno in order to try and save who could be saved that day.

When we think of 9/11 let us think of those amazing ordinary American men and women who taught the world about honor, courage, duty and committment, that day. Let the violence and hate of murderous men be put in it's place, buried, done with, forever, and let the heros of 9/11 be the saving grace it is and was for the world that day and days to come....

Posted by: rannrann | August 18, 2010 1:59 PM | Report abuse

@Ethan2010: "people like Kevin_Willis will still support the worst-of-the-worst at the voting booth."

No, I don't. As I keep telling you, I don't vote for Democrats.

Ba-dum-dum.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | August 18, 2010 2:01 PM | Report abuse

Greg, what is the Journolistserv take on this? We all a bunch of racists for wanting to honor the over 2,800 dead by not building a Mosque very near ground zero, where there are already at least two others in the vicinity?

Posted by: zap123 | August 18, 2010 2:18 PM | Report abuse

@ethan...We MUST not only make ourselves aware of the worst-of-the-worst, but we must ADDRESS the flagrant use of these lists as purveyors of hatred and bigotry.
-----------

Purveyors of hatred and bigotry? Ha, another Journolistserv 101 tactic! Glad we were made aware of the worst-of-the-worst from left wing race baiters.

Posted by: zap123 | August 18, 2010 2:27 PM | Report abuse

Known GOP offender Ed Rollins, was on "Face The Nation" Sunday, claiming exactly how the "9/11 families" are opposed to the mosque. As in, monolithically.

Attn: Ed - Simple 1st Amendment freedom, which you can learn up on by Googling. It's not hard, and it's not changing.

Your ignorance is astounding, and you insult the intelligence of the 9/11 families by implying that they aren't able to understand the Amendment either...

- Balkingpoints / www

Posted by: RField7 | August 18, 2010 2:29 PM | Report abuse

ethan spat: "deviant extremism and bigotry."]

So, I see ethan (as usual) can't offer any evidence to support his serial slanders.

That silence is evidence of ethan's intellectual bankruptcy.

/checkmate... dismissed

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 18, 2010 2:56 PM | Report abuse

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