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How about some fact-checks of Karl Rove's and right's falsehoods?

Virtually every news org under the sun has now weighed in with an aggressive fact check of White House/Dem foreign money allegations against the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. And that's as it should be.

But when are folks going to start getting equally aggressive about fact-checking the false and misleading claims in this dispute that are coming from the right?

Karl Rove, who co-founded two big spending groups, and others behind the huge conservative ad buys, have repeatedly claimed in recent days that their spending is comparable to anonymous spending from the left. These claims are serious distortions at best and demonstrable falsehoods at worst. But no one seems to care. While it's understandable that White House claims would draw more scrutiny, Rove is a hugely influential figure this year, helping raise and spend tens of millions to swing the elections.

Yesterday Rove falsely claimed that MoveOn doesn't disclose its donors, even though it complies with the same disclosure requirements that candiate and party committees do. And today, Rove amplified this line on Good Morning America, responding to the President's broadsides as follows:

President Obama based his attack on a blog posting by Think Progress, which is associated with the Center for American Progress, a group headed by John Podesta, who was the chairman of the president's transition. It is a political group and does not reveal its donors. The president didn't say anything about the League of Conservation Voters, which does not reveal its donors, and makes political ads.

The Natural Resources Defense Council, which runs ads through its action fund, does not reveal its donors. The president's own campaign refused to reveal the names of donors who contributed literally tens of millions of dollars to his efforts.

Rove's claims passed largely unchallenged, but let's take them one by one. The comparison to the Center for American Progress is absurd, because it does not and has never run campaign ads. The League of Conservation Voters has only spent a paltry $1.3 million this cycle -- an infinitesimal fraction of the right's spending. It pays for ads out of several committees. Nearly half of LCV's spending came from a committee that does, in fact, disclose its donors, according to a group spokesman.

LCV does also spend for ads out of a 501 c4, which doesn't disclose donors, but there's substantial donor overlap between the two committee, so we already have a very good idea of who they are. The Natural Resources Defense Council Action Fund is also a 501 c4, and doesn't disclose.

But even so, Rove's assertions about these groups are still absurd, because we already know what their issue positions and agendas are. What's more, Obama and Dems tried to pass the DISCLOSE Act this summer -- which would have forced such organizations to disclose their donors.

As for Rove's claim that literally tens of millions of Obama's contributions remained secret, the reality is that 90.2 percent of the hundreds of millions Obama raised were disclosed. And the comparison of conservative spending to labor, echoed by many on the right, has already been debunked by one lone blogger, Ben Smith.

By all means, let's fact-check the living heck out of the White House/Dem attacks on Chamber foreign money. But the steady stream of falsehoods and distortions coming from major players on the right deserves a look, too.

UPDATE, 3:15 p.m.: With regard to Rove's claim about the Obama campaign, it's also important to note that the campaign shut down the spending of outside groups, though people have debated the motives for doing so.

UPDATE, 4:25 p.m.: It gets even more ridiculous: A spokesman for the NRDC Action Fund tells me that his group will spend a grand total of $500,000 on the elections from August to November 2nd. That means the grand total being spent by all the groups Rove cited is less than $2 million, a comically tiny fraction of the right's spending, and not all of it is undisclosed to begin with.

UPDATE, 7:06 p.m.: The link to the figure on Obama's fundraising has been fixed. Apologies. Also, one other point: An operative gets in touch to object that the issue positions of Rove's groups can be ascertained from their Web sites. Fair enough, I suppose. But the comparison to these lefty groups is still completely bogus. Groups like the NRDC and the LCV were founded specifically to advocate on issues. Rove's groups were created to sway these elections, and are spending huge money chippped in by very powerful anonymous interests to do just that.

By Greg Sargent  | October 12, 2010; 2:55 PM ET
Categories:  2010 elections, Campaign finance, House Dems, House GOPers, Senate Dems, Senate Republicans  
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Next: Axelrod: We'll keep pounding outside spending and foreign money

Comments

Heh, it's Rove. ABout twenty seconds after he made his first appearance on FOX News, all the mdeia critics were falling all over themselves to proclaim how fair and balanced and unbiased Rove is.

Rove is a right-winger. No one ever bothered to check up on him when he was in the White House. No one will check his statements now.

Posted by: DDAWD | October 12, 2010 3:02 PM | Report abuse

Why not some factchecking of Rove?

You answered that already, Greg, in your prior post: "Pundits and Republicans Agree."

Posted by: bearclaw1 | October 12, 2010 3:07 PM | Report abuse

Good idea, Greg. Why don't those lazy-a*s "fact-checkers" do some real investigative reporting and FIND OUT who is supplying all the money to the Chamber? And to Rove? You know, do some actual work instead of sitting around pontificating and blathering and marking their scorecards.

Posted by: wbgonne | October 12, 2010 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Jake - So even Rove says that, "President Obama based his attack on a blog posting by Think Progress."

The blog post in question was from October 5th. Today it the 12th. If it is not to taxing to you do the math and you will find I was right.

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 12, 2010 3:10 PM | Report abuse

"The League of Conservation Voters has only spent a paltry $1.3 million this cycle -- an infinitessimal fraction of the right's spending."

So the real problem is simply that the GOP is doing a better job of the anonymous fundraising and attack ads that both parties do?

As Krauthammer said, "Whining squared."

Posted by: sbj3 | October 12, 2010 3:14 PM | Report abuse

Fact check Rove? The American media? You must not have been paying attention of late, but that is not how the US media operates.

Here is how it works: The media takes dictation from the GOP and reports it as fact. If the media deviates from this patern the GOP yells, "liberal bias," 7,237 times or until the media rolls over, exposes it's furry underbelly, and pees all over itself.

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 12, 2010 3:14 PM | Report abuse

Carl Rove and The Chamber Of Commerce should do the Patriotic American thing, and just show the American People the entire list of donors, and the amounts they have given. Also; they should spell out for The American People, why those fat cat donors are trying to buy the elections for The Republican Party?

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 3:16 PM | Report abuse

"So the real problem is simply that the GOP is doing a better job of the anonymous fundraising and attack ads that both parties do?"

No, the real problem is that our country has been hijacked by Plutocrats so bold they say the American People don't even have the right to know what the Plutocrats are doing to manipulate our elections.

Posted by: wbgonne | October 12, 2010 3:17 PM | Report abuse

"You know, do some actual work instead of sitting around pontificating and blathering and marking their scorecards."

But but but... journalism's HARD!

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 12, 2010 3:18 PM | Report abuse

"Here is how it works: The media takes dictation from the GOP and reports it as fact. If the media deviates from this patern the GOP yells, "liberal bias," 7,237 times or until the media rolls over, exposes it's furry underbelly, and pees all over itself.

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge"

I don't know how many people here read The Fix, but Chris Cillizza is pretty upfront about how most Washington journalists look to Matt Drudge to determine which stories to report on and pursue. Unfortunately, that's how it works.

Posted by: DDAWD | October 12, 2010 3:22 PM | Report abuse

90.2% is obviously not enough for Dems this time around, when the shoe's on the other foot. Even 10% of $760 million = $76 million (that's "tens of millions of dollars" for those of you in Rio Linda ; )

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/expend.php?cycle=2008&cid=n00009638

I already outlined on the prior thread how many Obama donations simply had NO DISCLOSURE whatsoever.

Karl Rove is right about that one.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 3:22 PM | Report abuse

OT:

@TPM:

Republican Senate candidate Mark Kirk caught on tape discussing his plan to send "voter integrity" squads to four predominantly African-American Chicago neighborhoods on election day. Kirk calls them "vulnerable precincts ... where the other side might be tempted to jigger the numbers somewhat."

As we and of course many others have been reporting for years, there's little if any evidence of systematic vote fraud in the United States today. Most of the 'voter integrity' agitprop has one real aim: reducing minority voting, especially blacks and hispanics.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/10/because_thats_what_they_do.php

Disgusting.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 12, 2010 3:24 PM | Report abuse

Remember back when The Tea Party movement used to pretend that they were all about ending the influence of special interest blocs, and big money, in DC?

Now they remain silent, and are going to vote for Republicans who are being promoted by secret cabals, who are laundering campaign funds, through Carl Rove and The Chamber Of Commerce.

The Robber Barons Of Wall St. have bought The Republican Party, lock,stock, and barrel, and The Tea Party Crowd are completely in bed with them.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

P.S. to PaciolisRevenge: I am gathering quotes from Dems for you, to prove that you are NOT right. Rove is not saying that's when the battle started; he said that's what Obama based his (latest) attack on. Try to keep up, please.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 3:26 PM | Report abuse

Mikefrom Arlington


You are becoming completely unhinged - it is just a blog - we are just discussing the issues.


You are probably mumbling to yourself too - you have to step AWAY from the keyboard -


Go outside and look at the leaves - breath the fresh air - come back after the election and things will seem better.


another blogger said she was in therapy because she couldn't handle the discussions on the blog - so please DON'T let it get that far - go outside for a while.

Remember white space is NOT your enemy.
________________________________


It is a complete disaster for the democrats


It just isn't this election - the AMERICAN PEOPLE have decided to permanently turn away from the democratic party.


The idea that the democrats would support such an irresponsible health care bill - and ignore the economy for so long - has caused the American People to believe that it makes no sense to RISK voting for the democrats again.


WHY vote for a democrat - who will LIE during a campaign - and then SWITCH to a far-left agenda with UNCERTAIN COSTS - AND MASSIVE NEGATIVE EFFECTS ON THE ECONOMY.


The democrats simply do not understand what they have done - their BETRAYAL of the American People during an ECONOMIC CRISIS has destroyed their party.


At this point, the democrats for the most part will hang onto gerrymandered districts - and that's it.


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Obama's campaign did NOT disclose where "all" of his donations came from. Again, from OpenSecrets:

Incomplete $15,611,429 (3.7%)

No Disclosure $25,289,671 (6.0%)

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?cycle=2008&cid=n00009638

When is Al Franken going to send a letter to the FEC demnding an investigation into Obama's campaign? Are you guys really claiming that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce got more than $25 million from foreign sources? That's not what Bob Scheifer said on Sunday when he schooled David Axelrod!

In fact, Obama's campaign ended up RETURNING $5,661,816 in campaign donations (some of those were from questionable or outright FOREIGN SOURCES). In addition, lots of those donations above were UNDER $200 which carry no disclosure requirements.

Using that same link I gave, above, you can see for yourself that up to $103,353,467 (27%) in donations to Obama were "Uncoded" so we may never find out how many of those were proper.

While the Center makes every effort to assign an industry or interest group code to every contribution of $200 or more, it's not always possible to do that. PAC contributions are virtually 100% identified, but many individual contributions simply cannot be categorized. The charts I've linked to show how much of the member's contributions have been successfully coded by the Center, and how many remain unclassified.

Here are the biggest categories of unknown contributions:

Those with no information about the donor's occupation or employer, or information so vague - like "businessman" or "self-employed" - that no code can be applied.

Homemakers, students and others with no direct income, when they can't be connected with the family income-earner. (Where the wage-earner is known, their category code is applied to all non-income-earners within the family).

Contributions where the employer is listed, but the Center wasn't able to categorize it. Though we try, we can't always identify the economic interest of every employer listed by donors. The Center uses a variety of reference materials that list companies by "Standard Industrial Codes," but due to limitations of time and staff resources, we can't get to them all. Others may not be listed in any phone books, business guides, or other resources, so their economic interest remains unknown.

Over the years, the Center has usually been able to identify about 99% of PAC contributions and about 65-70% of individual contributions for most candidates - at least by the end of the election cycle. We're always trying to improve those ratios, but the faster the money rolls in, the harder it is to keep on top of it. Please bear with them : )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Remember the name that George W. Bush gave Carl Rove?

He called him "turd blossom". Anyone who believes Carl Rove is believing in a "turd blossom".

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 3:33 PM | Report abuse

"Mikefrom Arlington


You are becoming completely unhinged - it is just a blog - we are just discussing the issues."

I haven't commented yet. Or have the voices in your head gone to your eyes now?

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 12, 2010 3:34 PM | Report abuse

Ethan

Some day you will realize how much of the democratic party is CONTROLLED by special interest money : ALL OF IT.


On that day, you will realize that lip-service has been paid to the democratic issues - but when it comes down to it, the money is more important.


When you come to that realization, your life will change.

.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 3:39 PM | Report abuse

"But when are folks going to start getting equally aggressive about fact-checking the false and misleading claims in this dispute that are coming from the right?"

Never! Pundits and Republicans are the same side of the coin. Any doubt about that should have disappeared with the 'Swift Boat' fiasco in 2004.

Posted by: AMviennaVA | October 12, 2010 3:39 PM | Report abuse

"and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Abraham Lincoln.

Sorry Mr. Lincoln, the Chamber Of Commerce, and Carl Rove are putting an end to all that. Of course they were given the green light to do so, by The Gang Of Five Right Wing Activists on the Supreme Court, where freedom and liberty have been shipped to be cremated.

There is a new name now on a certain statue. It's new more apt name is The Statue Of Oligarchy.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 3:42 PM | Report abuse

mikefromArlington at 3:34 PM

Calm down - I was commenting on what you said on the previous thread.


Remember Mike, white space is NOT your enemy.


You are beginning to see it everywhere, right - white space.


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 3:43 PM | Report abuse

BTW Mr. Sargent:

Who warrants more fact-checking, a private citizen, Karl Rove, or the (purported) President of the United States, Barack Obama?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 3:44 PM | Report abuse

Jake, is it just Karl Rove? I thought I made it clear that this is coming from many quarters.

Posted by: Greg Sargent | October 12, 2010 3:47 PM | Report abuse

The situation in US is a complete disaster . There isnt one political party that is for the average person in this country.

I would not give two cents to any of these crooks. My vot is for my survival and that can only come from me, certainly not from the government no matter who is in the White House. FDR would turn over in his grave if he could only know the ritten group that is killing America and Americans no matter what party they run on. NO VOTING IS MY CHOICE - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!

Posted by: LOONYBIN2000 | October 12, 2010 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Republicans and Tea Party apologists don't want election reform.

They don't want campaign finance reform.

Democrats do.

No amount of whining by neoconfederate PL trolls will change that.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 12, 2010 3:49 PM | Report abuse

Who are the members of The Secret Cabal that is using Carl Rove and The Chamber Of Commerce, in their evil scheme to purchase our Democracy, and why are The Republicans and Tea Party members so willing to sell out the right of the people to free, open, and fair elections?

Big Money, that dare not speak it's names, is up to no good. Vote for all those candidates that Secret Big Money is plotting to destroy.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Off topic.

Increasingly, I've been bumping into reports or hints of the Pentagon feeling it really ought to be in charge of things. Here's a bit of that from Beinart http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-10-10/tom-donilon-and-obamas-war-with-the-pentagon/?cid=hp:mainpromo1

The US military, like any such group, suffers inevitably from the 'if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail' problem. But there are such incredibly huge dollars involved in this institutions operations and enormous corporate profits tied to the war game that conflict is incentivized. Add to all of that the revolving door between the military and these corporate entities and the lobbyist community. No small problem for any administration but acutely a problem for one that wants to wind down conflict.

Posted by: bernielatham | October 12, 2010 3:54 PM | Report abuse

CLEARLY - there have been allegations that the Obama administration has ABUSED ITS POWERS by gaining access to the tax files of the Kock brothers.


HHHHMMMMMM


NOW Obama wants to know the NAMES OF EVERYONE who is contributing to the other side ......

Is this a witch hunt?


Does this not SMACK OF POLITICAL RETRIBUTION ????


Obama HAS CROSSED THE LINE.


Obama is so unqualified he isn't smart enough to avoid these kinds of issues - he just does NOT UNDERSTAND what is proper and what is not in a democracy.


This is the kind of thing that NO ONE IN AMERICA SHOULD BE DOING - IT IS OUT OF BOUNDS.


Obama is a complete fool - the sooner he resigns, the better off EVERYONE in the nation will be.


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse

This government is been in the oligarchical tank for a looong time. Each Party licks those boots.

I used to think humanity (or at least in the good ol' U.S. of A...)was on a systematic an irreversable climb to progressivism, enlightenment and liberality. It may have seemed barely visible at times, but surely we are headed in that direction.

I have since learned that tolerance, progressivism and enlightenment need *constant* tending because O'Donnell, Angle and the rest of the Know-nothing TeaOP are determined to ignore: climate change, civil rights, consumer protection, the environment, etc, etc.

Its one thing for them to play to fears of gays, so-called voter scams on the South Side of Chicago, and a mosque in lower Manhattan. Its another thing to ignore *real* threats to humanity as whole, or just you know, ignoring the civil rights of Muslims, Gays, African-Americans, etc.

Your GOP: same old trick bag of minority intimidation, right-wing religious paranoia, science-denying, *ass-kissing corporate shills.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | October 12, 2010 3:58 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Sargent:

Most of your alleged "fact checking" in this thread relates to a private citizen. My question, therefore, was whether 1) Rove or 2) Obama deserve more fact-checking. I would submit that Obama does.

Did you also see that Rove's claim about "literally millions of dollars" is true (your own 90.2% figure PROVES it)?

PaciolisRevenge:

"Liberal groups ... accuse the U.S. Chamber of Commerce of using foreign money to help fund GOP candidates, which would be a violation of U.S. election law."

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/07/nation/la-na-foreign-money-20101007

"This week, news broke that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce — one of the biggest sources of corporate cash backing Republicans this year — has been using money from foreign corporations in India, Bahrain, and elsewhere to fund its attack ads, in apparent violation of the law."

Could it be MONEY LAUNDERING?

http://www.dfwdigest.com/forum/view_topic.php?id=11893&forum_id=1&jump_to=119006

"Tax Fraud Charges Brought Against The Chamber Watchdog group charges in a complaint filed today with the Internal Revenue Service that the Chamber violated tax codes by laundering millions of dollars ..." (that was 9/10/10 BTW)

http://www.docudharma.com/diary/23196/ed-and-bernie-take-on-the-chamber-of-outsourcing

9/15/10: MoveOn released an ad tying the Chamber's "dirty money and fraud" to Senate candidates Rand Paul and Kelly Ayotte.

See also "evil scheme" propaganda above.

Will you at least reconsider your position now?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 3:59 PM | Report abuse

So WHEN Obama gets the names of people who contributed to the groups he doesn't like, is Obama going to look up their tax information like they did with the Kock brothers ???


This is serious stuff.


NOT UNPRECEDENTED though - Nixon did it. Sure seem like Obama has cast aside his desire to be unprecedented - in favor of ACTING LIKE NIXON.

.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

It's TRUE

If you look at Nixon's administration, Obama's actions are more like NIXON than any other administration


Look at the social programs - Nixon expanded the Great Society.


Look at the war - trying to get out of a war with a horrible corrupt dictator Karzai


LOOK at the BOMBING OF A THIRD COUNTRY - NIXON BOMBED LAOS - OBAMA IS BOMBING PAKISTAN ALMOST EVERY DAY.


Look at the abuses of power relating to DOMESTIC OPPONENTS.


OBAMA IS NIXON.


OBAMA IS NIXON


OBAMA IS NIXON


OBAMA IS NIXON


OBAMA IS NIXON.


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:05 PM | Report abuse

A cover up of the dire financial straits that Milwaukee County is in, in order to give Scott Walker(R), the guy who created the disaster, a chance to win the Governorship in Wisconsin.

Walker has run on the claim that he has been such a great fiscal manager as the Milwaukee County Chief Executive, and that he will do the same for the State Of Wisconsin. He has been campaigning on this claim, while all the while he knew that he has brought Milwaukee to the brink of financial ruin.
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/104647809.html

"Milwaukee County government is in such dire financial shape that state lawmakers should push through legislation that would allow it and other local governments to file for bankruptcy.

That's one of several recommendations included in a super-secret report drafted by the Greater Milwaukee Committee last month. This group of movers and shakers has decided to hold off releasing the details until after next month's election.

But a copy of the report's draft executive summary obtained by No Quarter shows the powerful committee is looking to recommend doing away with the elected county executive's post, slicing county worker benefits and spinning off the zoo, the bus system, the parks and much else under separate commissions.

If these dramatic steps - or something like them - aren't taken county government will collapse, the draft report suggests. In fact, in just six years, the report estimates, the county's pension and health care obligations will eat up every dollar raised through the county tax levy.

"The short-term 'solutions' and one-time 'fixes' have been exhausted," it says. "Without real reform, the County will be forced to eliminate whole areas of service to our community."'

"Michael Grebe, the head of the conservative Bradley Foundation, is chairman of both the Greater Milwaukee Committee and the campaign for Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker, the Republican gubernatorial nominee. Walker is taking on Mayor Tom Barrett, the Democratic nominee."

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 4:06 PM | Report abuse

"But even so, Rove's assertions about these groups are still absurd, because we already know what their issue positions and agendas are."

Ditto as to CoC. Ditto as to just about anyone who could matter.

"What's more, Obama and Dems tried to pass the DISCLOSE Act this summer -- which would have forced such organizations to disclose their donors."

If it were a matter of principle to the left, they would disclose everything and everyone, required or not.

"The comparison to the Center for American Progress is absurd, because it does not and has never run campaign ads."

Rather a petty distinction. CAP and its Action Fund run countless projects to promote liberal ideas, causes, and, whether directly or indirectly, candidates.

"As for Rove's claim that literally tens of millions of Obama's contributions remained secret, the reality is that 90.2 percent of the hundreds of millions Obama raised were disclosed."

So by your numbers only some tens of millions of Obama's direct contributions are unaccounted for. And that makes the charge that he had undisclosed contributors -- and almost certainly huge amounts of illegal foreign contributions -- a "falsehood"? Where I come from that makes it "true."

Posted by: quarterback1 | October 12, 2010 4:07 PM | Report abuse

OT:

@benen, two stories:

Americans are inclined to support repeal of the health care law, right up until they're told what's in the health care law.

Eliminating lifetime caps? A 54% majority doesn't want this to be repealed. Protections for those with pre-existing conditions? A 75% majority doesn't want this to be repealed. Insurance exchanges for the uninsured? A 60% majority doesn't want this to be repealed. Allowing kids up to age 26 to remain on their parents' policies? A 67% majority doesn't want this to be repealed. Filling the Medicare donut hole? A 73% majority doesn't want this to be repealed.

[...]

In related news, the same Bloomberg poll showed Dems with a slight, three-point advantage on the generic ballot, the president's approval rating is still 47%, and the three most popular political figures in the country are Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, and Barack Obama, in that order.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_10/026088.php

Zaid Jilani reports today on the Central Utah Project (CUP), which "has provided much-needed irrigation and power generation for the state's citizens." Utah Republicans prefer not to talk about it, but the CUP initiative received an enormous boost from the stimulus, installing a new pipeline, creating jobs, etc.

Sen. Orrin Hatch (R) is now worried the federal spending -- investments Hatch and his party are generally desperate to cut -- might dry up.

[...]

"My gosh, it would be idiocy to not finish this project," Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, said.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_10/026090.php

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 12, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

OK, so we can all agree that "literally tens of millions of Obama's contributions remained secret" then? Moving onto the next alleged falsehood ...

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

The Wall St. Big Casino Bank Operators who brought you The Great Economic Crash of 2008, are trying to purchase this years elections, and re install Their Republican Lap Dogs.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 4:13 PM | Report abuse

He has ruined Milwaukee County's fiscal standing, and has kept it secret, while running for Governor of Wisconsin.

Nice going Tea Party Crowd.

A cover up of the dire financial straits that Milwaukee County is in, in order to give Scott Walker(R), the guy who created the disaster, a chance to win the Governorship in Wisconsin.

Walker has run on the claim that he has been such a great fiscal manager as the Milwaukee County Chief Executive, and that he will do the same for the State Of Wisconsin. He has been campaigning on this claim, while all the while he knew that he has brought Milwaukee to the brink of financial ruin.
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/104647809.html

"Milwaukee County government is in such dire financial shape that state lawmakers should push through legislation that would allow it and other local governments to file for bankruptcy.

That's one of several recommendations included in a super-secret report drafted by the Greater Milwaukee Committee last month. This group of movers and shakers has decided to hold off releasing the details until after next month's election.

But a copy of the report's draft executive summary obtained by No Quarter shows the powerful committee is looking to recommend doing away with the elected county executive's post, slicing county worker benefits and spinning off the zoo, the bus system, the parks and much else under separate commissions.

If these dramatic steps - or something like them - aren't taken county government will collapse, the draft report suggests. In fact, in just six years, the report estimates, the county's pension and health care obligations will eat up every dollar raised through the county tax levy.

"The short-term 'solutions' and one-time 'fixes' have been exhausted," it says. "Without real reform, the County will be forced to eliminate whole areas of service to our community."'

"Michael Grebe, the head of the conservative Bradley Foundation, is chairman of both the Greater Milwaukee Committee and the campaign for Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker, the Republican gubernatorial nominee. Walker is taking on Mayor Tom Barrett, the Democratic nominee."

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse

@STRF Wow for once we agree. You keep using all that white space. Makes it clear from the very beginning who is posting and we can all scroll quickly by...by all means STRF...how about even MORE WHITE SPACE?
Have you ever thought about quadruple spacing.

Posted by: rukidding7 | October 12, 2010 4:18 PM | Report abuse

"The Obama campaign shut down the spending of outside groups ..."

Coordinating with said outside groups is, actually, a violation of federal election law in and of itself, so we know that Obama didn't do anything illegal like directly shutting down such spending. Per the link provided, back in May of 2008 (SEVEN MONTHS before the election), Obama’s national finance chairwoman, Chicago hotel mogul Penny Pritzker, told supporters in Indianapolis to VOLUNTARILY not give money to the groups.

Of course, that didn't shut down spending.

In 2008, just the 527 advocacy groups reported receipts of $505,947,540 and SPENT $489,850,302.

Was this like one of those Obama campaign promises to shut-down GTMO, etc.?

Next up: "... the comparison of conservative spending to labor, echoed by many on the right, has already been debunked by one lone blogger ..."

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

From Benen

"FEDERAL JUDGE ORDERS PENTAGON TO STOP ENFORCING DADT.... About a month ago, U.S. District Judge Virginia A. Phillips found that the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy is unconstitutional, violating due process and the First Amendment. Phillips added that the policy has a "direct and deleterious effect" on the armed services, "impeding military readiness and unit cohesion."

At that point, the judge called for the plaintiffs to submit a proposed injunction limiting the law. Today, Phillips ordered the military to "immediately ... suspend and discontinue any investigation, or discharge, separation, or other proceeding, that may have been commenced under the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'" policy."

I'm sure Greg will be on this one at some point. Personally, I'm very pleased. Enough with the anti-gay hatred.

Posted by: bernielatham | October 12, 2010 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Obama raised $700 Million to McCain's $87 Million


That is an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE of over $600 Million


So, Obama is whining about $50 Million the other side has.


CBS called that PEANUTS.


It is - anyone who rationally and reasonably looks at the numbers and the issues wonders why Obama is trying to make this an issue.

The truth is Obama is trying to DECEIVE people - Obama is relying on people who do NOT know all the facts and numbers.


It is a NATIONAL DISGRACE


It really is. This is the best guy we can get for the job? Obama is woefully inadequate and unqualified - then the country has incidents like this.


The country has THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE who can do a far superior job to Obama.

Come on - the nation is TOO IMPORTANT to have such an unqualified person WITH SO LITTLE JUDGEMENT.


The democrats should just be smart - find a way to EASE HIM OUT and start to repair the damage.


This is like playing a football team which FUMBLES ON EVERY PLAY -


What good is it? Playing a team that plays so horribly. Time to pack it in and get Obama to resign.


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:21 PM | Report abuse

I guess we should now check out Nixon's birth certificate.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 4:21 PM | Report abuse

rukidding - white space is not your enemy - release yourself.


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:24 PM | Report abuse

There sure are more "off topic" posts today than normal. I wonder why that is?

Getting back to the alleged "fact checking" ...

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 4:24 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, SaveTheRainforest, I didn't mean YOUR posts (which are mostly right on topic ; )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 4:26 PM | Report abuse

OT

Breaking news

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SAN DIEGO — A federal judge issued a worldwide injunction Tuesday stopping enforcement of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, ending the military's 17-year-old ban on openly gay troops.

U.S. District Judge Virginia Phillips' landmark ruling was widely cheered by gay rights organizations that credited her with getting accomplished what President Obama and Washington politics could not.

U.S. Department of Justice attorneys have 60 days to appeal. Legal experts say the department is under no legal obligation to do so and could let Phillips' ruling stand.

Phillips declared the law unconstitutional after a two-week nonjury trial in federal court in Riverside. She said the Log Cabin Republicans "established at trial that the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Act irreparably injures servicemembers by infringing their fundamental rights."

She said the policy violates due process rights, freedom of speech and the right to petition the government for redress of grievances guaranteed by the First Amendment.

"Furthermore, there is no adequate remedy at law to prevent the continued violation of servicemembers' rights or to compensate them for violation of their rights," Phillips said.

She said Department of Justice attorneys did not address these issues in their objection to her expected injunction.

Posted by: lmsinca | October 12, 2010 4:27 PM | Report abuse

Jake

I just can't take seriously a discussion which tries to put Karl Rove on the same level as Obama.


Karl Rove isn't out there accusing people of violating the law - without evidence.


Those actions of Obama are an ABUSE OF POWER.

If the liberals want to put people on the same level -

May I suggest a CAGE MATCH between Karl Rove and Axelrod - make it to the death -


OR a donut eating contest....

.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:29 PM | Report abuse

I'm sure Greg will be on this one at some point. Personally, I'm very pleased. Enough with the anti-gay hatred.

Posted by: bernielatham | October 12, 2010 4:21 PM

...............

Bernie,

Did you catch those recent news reports about the military in Afghanistan relying on translators who do not speak the proper dialects, to translate properly, what the village elders are saying to the US Officers?

In one example; the US Officer asked the village elder, if his village was receiving enough security from the miliary. The elder said; that he had not seen any security at all being provided for his community. The translator told the officer that the elder said that security was just fine. No complaints at all about it.

Then we had the very recent report about how Contractors have been hiring drug lords, and Taliban operatives, to provide security in American compounds. In one recent raid, on a Taliban hideout, two of the Taliban that were killed, turned out to be Afghans that contractors had stationed inside an American Military base.

Perhaps the Pentagon should devote more time, to screening out Taliban agents, and bad translators, instead of devoting so much time to trying to find out who might be gay.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 4:33 PM | Report abuse

Should Anonymous Fat Cats be allowed to hide behind The Chamber Of Commerce and Carl Rove, when they are trying to purchase elections?

Why are those anonymous fat cats afraid to revel who they are?

If The Tea Party crowd are against Washington Politicians taking orders from The Robber Barons Of Wall St, then why are the Tea Party crowd going along with The Republicans being purchased by Anonymous Fat Cats?

Carl Rove and The Chamber Of Commerce are accepting huge sums of money from Anonomous Fat Cats, to be used to elect Republicans.
Clearly The Republicans have agreed to let The Robber Barons give the orders, once the Republicans are back in the majority.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 4:37 PM | Report abuse

Wow. This is a weak, weak brew.

Here's the problem:
"The League of Conservation Voters has only spent a paltry $1.3 million this cycle -- an infinitesimal fraction of the right's spending. It pays for ads out of several committees. Nearly half of LCV's spending came from a committee that does, in fact, disclose its donors, according to a group spokesman.

LCV does also spend for ads out of a 501 c4, which doesn't disclose donors, but there's substantial donor overlap between the two committee, so we already have a very good idea of who they are. The Natural Resources Defense Council is also a 501 c4, and doesn't disclose."

Sooooo, didn't the left in America raise the claim that money is fungible and therefore foreign contributions to the CofC results in ad buys in America? Does the concept of fungible money not apply here to Podesta group?

Next the LCV claim is just a bunch of weasel words. Would having a pretty good idea meet the standards for disclosure that Chuck Schumer would like? I hardly think so.

and it really boils down to what Dr Krauthammer described as "whining Squared".

rich Lowry pegged it correctly today. If this is your issue, you're lost.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | October 12, 2010 4:38 PM | Report abuse

SaveTheRainforest:

I understand your frustration, but we need to keep pointing out the truth or else those like "clintt5" will be able to convince the Republicans he is talking to that they should not vote for the GOP candidate. That's how they are using these unfounded smear campaigns!

Keep up the good fight : )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 4:38 PM | Report abuse

"I'm sure Greg will be on this one at some point. Personally, I'm very pleased. Enough with the anti-gay hatred."

All of America rejoices that a Canadian radical and opponent of U.S. military strength is pleased.

The judge's ruling is preposterous. I predict she will go down with Vaughn and Bolton in flames and ignomy, on appeal and in history.

Posted by: quarterback1 | October 12, 2010 4:40 PM | Report abuse

skipsailing28:

Karl Rove is clearly back to being a private citizen now; he should sue Greg Sargent and the WaPo Co. for libel.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 4:43 PM | Report abuse

QB

You aren't allowed to say "gay" or "lesbian" anymore


It is "people with same-sex partners"

Sounds so vanilla..........


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:47 PM | Report abuse

Please please please do sue Greg, "Turd Blossom".

Then we will be able to discover the names in that Wall St Cabal, that has been using you as their beard, in order to return their Republican Lap Dogs to power.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

QB

You aren't allowed to say "gay" or "lesbian" anymore


It is "people with same-sex partners"

Sounds so vanilla..........


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

he [Rove] should sue Greg Sargent and the WaPo Co. for libel.
--------------------------------
If only he would. And sue today or tomorrow at the latest. That would unleash the investigations.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 12, 2010 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Carl Rove and The Chamber Of Commerce should do the Patriotic American thing, and just show the American People the entire list of donors, and the amounts they have given. Also; they should spell out for The American People, why those fat cat donors are trying to buy the elections for The Republican Party?

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 4:53 PM | Report abuse

I can't believe no one likes the idea of a Karl Rove - Axelrod donut eating contest to settle the fact-checking questions.


It will have about as much impact with the electorate.


The ratings might be high though.


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:54 PM | Report abuse

Karl Rove isn't out there accusing people of violating the law - without evidence.
...
Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:29 PM
===========================

Funny. That's exactly what Karl Rove has spent his entire career doing.
~


Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | October 12, 2010 4:57 PM | Report abuse

The [government] investigations are going to proceed regardless -- unless the GOP can finally get control back in Congress and defund the FEC -- discovery in Rove's lawsuit would not even commence until AFTER November 2nd. Here are the prime allegations of said libel complaint.

Defendants, and each of them, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the truth, published false statements about PLAINTIFF, to wit:

(a) "Karl Rove, who co-founded two big spending groups, and others behind the huge conservative ad buys, have repeatedly claimed in recent days that their spending is comparable to anonymous spending from the left. These claims are serious distortions at best and demonstrable falsehoods at worst."

(b) "Yesterday Rove falsely claimed that MoveOn doesn't disclose its donors ..."

(c) "... the steady stream of falsehoods and distortions coming from major players [again, only Plaintiff was named in this article] on the right deserves a look, too."

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Liam-still at 4:53 PM writes


Carl Rove and The Chamber Of Commerce should do the Patriotic American thing, and just show the American People the entire list of donors, and the amounts they have given


___________________________

It's Karl with a K


AND THEN WHAT ? Obama and his GOONS go get the IRS files on ALL OBAMA'S DOMESTIC OPPONENTS -


And we have so leaks about people's taxes???


Obama is just like NIXON.


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 12, 2010 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Jake - None of those links you provided me in any way disproved my points.

Let us review my objections 1) This whole fight came to the front a week ago and therefore current polling doesn't clearly reflect the utility of the attack 2) Dems aren't saying that it is illegal so much as unsavory.

Your first link has a headline that says, "...which would be a violation of U.S. election law." The headline says that, but not the article. In the American media headlines are often misleading. It certainly doesn't quote anyone saying that what the Chamber is doing is illegal.

Your second link is to some blog I've never heard of and doesn't quote anyone. Really, is that the best you can do?

Your third link is completely OT and deals with AIG.

Really Jake, pay attention. What the Chamber is doing is not illegal; that is the problem.

So once again I'll ask: Can you provide a link of Dems yelling about how the Chamber is breaking the law by what it is doing? Because I haven't seen it yet.

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 12, 2010 4:59 PM | Report abuse

ifthethunderdontgetya:

You realize that Mr. Rove is a private citizen now, right?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Yesterday I pointed out some actions by our government that are just plain wrong. Ethan, who apparently loves it when the government tells him what to do scoffed at my concern.

but the urge to control the lives of others hits politicians at every level.

Here's another example just for Ethan:
http://www.michiganreview.com/a2-city-council-s-ban-on-porch-couches-1.1654668

the city council in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor has voted to ban porch couches. I assume that the police will now patrol the area around the college and issue citations. Frat houses all over the metro area are contemplating how to comply with the new ordinance I'm sure.

I assume Ethan will have no problem with this latest intrustion into the private lives of American citizens. Perhaps when the government gets around to specifing exactly how mom's basement must be furnished before failed-to-launch sons can inhabit it Ethan will finally get the point.

or maybe not.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | October 12, 2010 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Karl Rove; AKA "Turd Blossom" began his political consulting career, by purchasing a smoke alarm, installing it in his client's campaign office, and then having a a fire started in that office. The fire dept, and the local police examined the fire alarm, and found that it had only been set up and running for fifteen minutes, before Rove called the fire dept to report that someone had set fire to his client's campaign office.

Sure; Carl Rove would never cheat or lie. He is the most honest "turd blossom" the world has ever known.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 5:03 PM | Report abuse

yeah Gibbs wants the political opposition to just tell the white house whence the money. I assume that this is so Austin Goolsby can improperly review federal records about the contributors.

STRF maybe on to something. Obama as Nixon.

did Nixon Play as much golf?

Posted by: skipsailing28 | October 12, 2010 5:04 PM | Report abuse

You realize that Mr. Rove is a private citizen now, right?
-----------------------------------
You realize that the sophistry master is trying to lead everyone on a rabbit trail, right?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 12, 2010 5:07 PM | Report abuse

@Liam
Yes, I've read some of those accounts and others like them.

These folks have a very long history of thwarting dominion and occupation and I could never quite figure out how the US military and civilian leaders presumed they would end up differently from the Russians or the Brits or any of those who preceded them.

Posted by: bernielatham | October 12, 2010 5:07 PM | Report abuse

It's kind of like the time Sen. Inhofe said that environmental groups and all their money put a stranglehold on Congress (http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/09/inhofe-global-warming-is-still-greatest-hoax-mccain-is-afraid-of-environmentalists-and-we%E2%80%99re-now-cooling/), when oil and gas has pumped millions into elections over the years. These groups can't even compete with anonymous millionaires.

Posted by: guyinshaw | October 12, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

PaciolisRevenge:

The "headline" was written by the LA TIMES as was the blog (I'm going to assume they are both Democrats and, therefore, responsive to your request). While that is not the "best" I can do -- they were the first three hits from a Google search -- they are the best you deserve.

I have only debunked half of Mr. Sargent's alleged "falsehoods" against Mr. Rove, so I hope you can understand that I too have my priorities : )

SaveTheRainforest:

I sent you an email.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 12, 2010 5:09 PM | Report abuse

Skip - I must say the ban on porch couches seems like a terrible idea. I certainly wouldn't support it.

That said there was a reason for it.

"The ordnance was largely been framed in terms public safety as a change to the city's nuisance code, and to be fair, that consideration is not without merit. The death in April of an Eastern Michigan University student in a house fire believed to have originated on the house's front porch has given impetus to an issue that has lain mostly dormant for the past six years."

Now that seems like weak tea to me. I don't think we should ban porch couches because they may, possibly, be a fire hazard.

However you were here just yesterday claiming marijuana should remain illegal because it may impair driving. As we both now know marijuana has a very small effect on driving, in fact it probably is as much of a danger to drivers as porch couches are to houses.

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 12, 2010 5:12 PM | Report abuse


@Liam
Yes, I've read some of those accounts and others like them.

These folks have a very long history of thwarting dominion and occupation and I could never quite figure out how the US military and civilian leaders presumed they would end up differently from the Russians or the Brits or any of those who preceded them.
..............

They have never been a real country, with a cohesive national identity. The major ethnic/tribal groups have never even tried to work together. I am not convinced that Iraq is going to turn out much better. They still have not formed a new government, even though the elections were held several months ago.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 5:14 PM | Report abuse

All, my interview with David Axelrod about this whole fight:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/10/axelrod_well_keep_pounding_out.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | October 12, 2010 5:15 PM | Report abuse

Jake - You have yet to show me any Dem saying what the Chamber is doing is illegal.

You may think they, "Are the best I deserve," but this isn't about me. It is about you misstating your opposition’s position so you can then knock it down. That is a straw man.

Certainly none of us here are saying it is illegal, we are saying it SHOULD be illegal. There is a big difference.

Now I don't know you, but I can tell you don't know much about the law. There is a huge difference between stating, "X should be Illegal," and saying, "X is illegal." I'm sure you'll figure out the difference before you graduate and go on to college, (if you plan on going to college. Not everyone is cut out for it, we need plumbers and people willing to drive around picking up road kill too.)

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 12, 2010 5:20 PM | Report abuse

"Dems aren't saying that it is illegal so much as unsavory."

"The liberal group MoveOn.org is claiming, without any qualification, that "[f]oreign corporations are funding some of the $75 million the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is spending to defeat Democrats."

They are accusing the CoC of engaging in illegal activity.

Posted by: sbj3 | October 12, 2010 5:25 PM | Report abuse

The American Voters deserve to be informed about who is actually funding Karl Rove, and The Chamber of Commerce's campaign to elect only Republicans, and why those Concealed Fat Cats feel so confident, that The Republicans will deliver for them.

It may no longer be illegal, thanks to the coup against one person one vote, pulled of by the Gang Of Five Right Wing Supreme Court Activists; but it sure the hell is not Government Of The People, By The People, either.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

SBJ - Please provide a link of MoveOn saying "this is illegal."

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 12, 2010 5:32 PM | Report abuse

"What's more, Obama and Dems tried to pass the DISCLOSE Act this summer -- which would have forced such organizations to disclose their donors. "

The Disclose Act would not have forced the Sierra Club, AFL/CIO, NRA, most unions and more large organizations to disclose their donors. The partisan bill specifically exempted organizations that tend to support liberal politicians.

Posted by: cprferry | October 12, 2010 5:33 PM | Report abuse

My point remains PR, and you just supported it.

The test should be whether or not the government has a compelling interest in seeing to it that citizens modify their behavior. They also must prove that they can effectively enforce their proposed law.

I raised my concern about legalizing marajuana NOT because I don't want people to be free but out of concern for others on the road.

Who beside the drunk frat boy with the ciggie dangling from his lips is threatened by the porch couch? Is it really just to prevent fires? If so, the politburo of the People's republic would have much greater impact by enforcing existing code.

Today Ethan responded to my concerns about intrusive "environmental" legislation by pointing out that we now have seat belt laws.

Of course I oppose these, just as I oppose mandatory child seats. If we are free and we endanger only ourselves, what compelling interest does the government have? If I don't fasten my seat belt, I and only I will go through the windshield, right? Of course their might be others in the car, but would you allow the driver of a car you were in to do so without a seatbelt fastened?

As to enforcement the very popular ban on texting while driving is a perfect example. I have a long commute. I've seen it all. If we are going to create an unenforceable law about texting, how about one on applying makeup in the rear view mirror while going 80 in the far left lane? Or how about a ban on good old reading while driving? I see both every week!

Posted by: skipsailing28 | October 12, 2010 5:34 PM | Report abuse

"SBJ - Please provide a link of MoveOn saying "this is illegal."

Oh boy, that is weak. If the COC has done what MoveOn accuses them of doing then it would be illegal activity.

(If I accuse you of killing someone have I accused you of committing an illegal act - or do I need to explicitly state that killing someone is illegal?)

You are not usually this ridiculous.

Posted by: sbj3 | October 12, 2010 5:43 PM | Report abuse

Skip

"The test should be whether or not the government has a compelling interest in seeing to it that citizens modify their behavior. They also must prove that they can effectively enforce their proposed law."

Good points! But here is the thing, the couches in question are probably just as dangerous as marijuana and it is far easier to effectively enforce the couch ban.

"Who beside the drunk frat boy with the ciggie dangling from his lips is threatened by the porch couch? Is it really just to prevent fires?"

I have no idea, I just read the article you attached, that is the limit of what I know on this subject. But let us flip the topic and ask who is threatened by marijuana? Tests show it doesn't inhibit driving nearly as much as alcohol or even certain perscription medications.

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 12, 2010 5:46 PM | Report abuse

"Of course I oppose these, just as I oppose mandatory child seats"

HAHAHA!

Wow.

You oppose mandatory SEATBELT LAWS???

And your concern about legalizing cannabis was your fear of more people dying from intoxicated drivers? But you OPPOSE seatbelt laws? WTF is up with that? Do you have any idea how many lives per year do seatbelts save?

Some stats:

"""""Seat belts are the most effective safety devices in vehicles today, estimated to save 9,500 lives each year. [...] If 90 percent of Americans buckle up, we will prevent more than 5,500 deaths and 132,000 injuries annually. The cost of unbuckled drivers and passengers goes beyond those killed and the loss to their families. We all pay for those who don't buckle up in higher taxes, higher health care and higher insurance costs."""""

Oh wait. I keep forgetting...

You LIKE paying high insurance costs and high taxes and you HATE efficiency and saving money.

Truly unbelievable, Skip. You are truly the height of hypocrisy and irresponsibility all rolled into one.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 12, 2010 5:51 PM | Report abuse

SBJ - The point I'm trying to make is that you are using a straw man.

We all realize that this is NOT illegal. It may have been before the Citizens United ruling, but it isn't now.

"If I accuse you of killing someone have I accused you of committing an illegal act - or do I need to explicitly state that killing someone is illegal?"

Killing is not always against the law either. I'm well within my rights to kill in self defense, aren't I?

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 12, 2010 5:54 PM | Report abuse

"We all realize that this is NOT illegal. It may have been before the Citizens United ruling, but it isn't now."

Huh? Using foreign money to fund campaign commercials IS illegal. And that was long before CU.

(I should have written murder.)

Posted by: sbj3 | October 12, 2010 6:03 PM | Report abuse

The Chamber Of Commerce has already admitted that it commingles donations from foreign chapters with American donations.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Greg:

This is a very bizarre post of yours. You propose to take Rove's claims one by one, suggesting that you will demonstrate how/why they are false. And then you proceed to...demonstrate that they are in fact true.

Very strange indeed.

Posted by: ScottC3 | October 12, 2010 7:01 PM | Report abuse

They would not be trying to remain anonymous, if they were just exercising their civil rights.

Sinister Big Money is using Karl Rove and The Chamber Of Con Artists, as their beards, in order to put their puppet government in place, without ever having to reveal who they really are.

Americans; vote for all candidates that Karl Rove's Crossroads Groups, and The American Chamber Of Con Artists oppose.

If they will not treat you like real Americans, and revel the names of their Robber Baron backers, then you must reject them.

Vote against The Chamber Of Con Artists, because they want to send all the good paying production jobs to China, and other cheap labor countries

Posted by: Liam-still | October 12, 2010 7:05 PM | Report abuse

Unasked is the question of the extent to which foreign money was used to deep six the anti-outsourcing bill. It seems very, very likely that the "U.S." Chamber of Commerce is and has been
using foreign money for its own political ends including killing the
anti-outsourcing bill. Please see:
http://www.examiner.com/city-buzz-in-denver/did-lobbyists-use-foreign-money-to-d\
efeat-anti-outsourcing-bill

Posted by: richrblake | October 12, 2010 7:45 PM | Report abuse

richrblake, by "deep six" you mean bribery?

Posted by: clawrence12 | October 12, 2010 8:39 PM | Report abuse

I'll tell you whos donating to Rove: me. Right Now!

Posted by: PeaceLanese | October 13, 2010 11:05 AM | Report abuse

FULL DISCLOSURE: I donated to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce yesterday ; )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 13, 2010 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Why isn't anyone investigating the right? Because the media is by and large owned by the right. From the Washington Times to Pox Noise, all the way down, with very few exceptions. We no longer have an independent media. If ever there were any questions, they were answered in the run up to the Iraq invasion. The media outlets were cheerleaders in fact for the Administration. Anyone who posed questions, questions that SHOULD have been posed by a FREE PRESS, was branded a traitor.

@SaveTheRainforest - Your new username should be "DrankTheCoolAid"! Anyone who becomes a puppet and apologist for Karl Rove cannot be taken seriously. As bad as George W. Bush was, many of his so-called "policy" decisions are directly attributable to Karl Rove. Rove's history, at best, is dubious. Most insiders know that ethics is not one of his strong suits: his outing of Valerie Plame and the whisper campaign against Gov. Ann Richards, to name just two examples.

He is often at the center of things that stink but just slick enough to get away unscathed.

OBAMA IS NIXON?

You are either too young to know about Watergate or too senile to recall it. The only similarity here is that Nixon had a list of enemies, mainly the press. (Or the American people, depending on how you look at it). But what if those so-called enemies are real?

Let's compair the bombing of Cambodia to the falsehoods used to get us into Iraq to begin with! To use a national tragedy such as 9/11 to excuse the pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign country such as Iraq... Now there is your real comparison.

Whether the COC is in fact doing anything illegal is irrelevant. If foreign contributions are influencing our elections the voters have a right to know. The even bigger question is: the money coming out of places such as Bahrain is being laundered for whom?

But, as usual, whenever the Right is caught with their hand in the cookie jar, they begin to squeal like pigs and characterize themselves as victims. The COC and the Republican party (and the Democratic party, too) are influencing the taxpayers and how they vote. If the COC has nothing to hide, then let us see that.

Where was all of this self-righteous indignation when Obama's citizenship was challenged? Or when the Clintons were accused of the murder of Vince Foster?

I am consistently amazed that partisanship on both sides is making us blind to what is going on in this country. Forget WHO did it, isn't anyone concerned about fraudulant claims as a basis for war? Torture is now OFFICIAL US policy? Gitmo is still up and running... On and on it goes.

As long as we keep clawing at each other's throats, the real losers are the American people. And that goes for left AND right.

As for Karl Rove, I can quote the famous line: "Methinks thou dost protest too much!"

Posted by: cybersleuth58 | October 13, 2010 2:30 PM | Report abuse

Our gracious host has posted yet another thread claiming to have detailed herein that "the multiple rationales that these groups are advancing to justify their anonyously funded ad onslaughts are also false and misleading". Since we've dealt with each and every such allegation in the comments, above, who exactly is posting the "false and misleading" points again?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/10/rove_chamber_ads_widely_debunk.html

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 13, 2010 2:42 PM | Report abuse

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