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Jack Conway's next attack on Rand Paul: Sales tax

Jack Conway's campaign, which generated a lot of heat and noise with its ad attacking Rand Paul over the Aqua Buddha affair, is planning to pivot hard to a direct attack on Paul over pocketbook issues.

Conway's campaign is planning to replace the Aqua Buddha spot with a new one later this week that hits Paul over video that recently surfaced that appeared to show the Kentucky Republican voicing support for a national sales tax. Here's an early look at the spot:

The spot, one of several that the Conway camp is considering airing for the final stretch, shows video of Paul saying: "I would always favor a sales tax over an income tax."

The question about the sales tax, or so-called "Fair Tax," has surfaced as a major issue in the race in recent days. In the wake of the video revelations, a former Paul campaign aide put out a statement saying Paul would vote for the Fair Tax as Senator. But the campaign has since distanced him from the claim, insisting that Paul is merely in favor of looking at all options in the quest for tax reform.

Though this race is still an uphill climb for Dems, there's been a sudden glimmer of optimism among national Dems about Conway's chances. Rasmussen yesterday found that Conway has crept within five points. And the DSCC put out a poll last night showing Conway with a slight lead, an effort to project a sense of momentum in the wake of all the national media attention -- not to mention criticism -- heaped on the Aqua Buddha ad.

Though Dems acknowledge that Conway still has a ways to go in closing the gap with Paul, it's hard to overstate how big a win knocking him off would represent for Democrats, given that he's the first -- and perhaps the most prominent -- of Tea Party candidates with a shot at major office.

By Greg Sargent  | October 20, 2010; 11:48 AM ET
Categories:  2010 elections, Senate Dems, Senate Republicans, Tea Party  
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Next: That enthusiasm gap remains just awful for Dems

Comments

Rand Paul will still win!

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 20, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

This couldn't be more misleading, could it? I am sure that Greg strongly condemns the failure to mention the proposed REDUCTION in Federal income tax and state income tax?

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

An effective ad, but where did the 23% number come from? Did Paul actually endorse a 23% sales tax?

Posted by: NicholasLeCompte | October 20, 2010 11:59 AM | Report abuse

It's the mid-terms during a President's first term in office, and he has both houses of Congress, so history tells us a big swing to the other party. There has also been unprecedented media coverage of the Tea Party and the right wing enthusiasm that, in the media, drowns out the left and the center. There is an unprecedented amount of third-party money in this election, mostly on the right.

And yet.

And yet, Dem candidates are holding their own. They have ideas and they are working to offer responsible governance and not a sideshow.

If Dems SIMPLY come out and vote, and Indies pay attention to the specific candidates, this can restore some sanity to the political process.

Gotv.

Posted by: BGinCHI | October 20, 2010 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Please don't call this a fair tax, lol.

Imagine the compounding result of loss of tax revenue during a recession. Plus, imagine the black market that would spring up in the U.S.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and boycott Koch products.

http://www.worldofkoch.com/

Hit em where it hurts.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Though Dems acknowledge that Conway still has a ways to go in closing the gap with Paul, it's hard to overstate how big a win knocking him off would represent for Democrats, given that he's the first -- and perhaps the most prominent -- of Tea Party candidates with a shot at major office.

*******

True. While I am usually in awe of the message discipline of the Republican Party, currently I'm shocked by how poorly the GOP has managed the expectation game.

If, by some miracle, the GOP doesn't take back the house it will be considered a HUGE win for the Dems. Bohner, the #1 Republican in the house, said in April that the GOP could win 100 seats in the upcoming election.

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 20, 2010 12:03 PM | Report abuse

Geez, stop carrying Conway's FUD campaign for him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

Posted by: joshlowry | October 20, 2010 12:03 PM | Report abuse

What he is proposing is a VAT(national value added tax). Republican Gov. Of Indiana, Mitch Daniels recently said that he favored imposing a national VAT, on top of local sales taxes.

And you really believed the Republicans, when they said they did not want America to be governed, like the EU nations are. O you gullible Tea Party fools.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 20, 2010 12:05 PM | Report abuse

Man, who woulda guessed 5 months ago that KY and WV would be competitive.

That is a BFD.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:05 PM | Report abuse

@NicholasLeCompte: By endorsing the so-called "Fair Tax", he endorses its stated 23% rate.

See http://bit.ly/cO1fFc

Posted by: tbetz | October 20, 2010 12:06 PM | Report abuse

I'd argue that Rubio was the first and most prominent of these candidates. Paul was just a little further out there. Followed by Angle, Miller, and CO'D.

On the plus side, Teaism might be looking at a boom in business come January.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | October 20, 2010 12:07 PM | Report abuse

to troll sbj3, sure, income taxes would go down, but for folks who pay under 23% tax (and that's a lot of people) - a national sales tax would be both regressive and disastrous.

Paul is running away from this because he knows it's a campaign killer.

Posted by: lcrider1 | October 20, 2010 12:07 PM | Report abuse

I'm going out today to buy Koch products!

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 20, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Someone give me one idea of Rand Paul's that's good for the middle class.

Posted by: BGinCHI | October 20, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

I always knew that Jake The Snake was a Koch Sucker!

Posted by: Liam-still | October 20, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

@icrider: The point is that Greg has been bitterly complaining about misleading advertisements for a couple of weeks now. This one is very misleading and I do not see one word of condemnation. That's hypocritical (and Greg is not normally hypocritical).

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Someone give me one idea of Rand Paul's that's good for the middle class.

Posted by: BGinCHI | October 20, 2010 12:10 PM

.....................
A Be Like Rand program, might jump start the middle class,again.

Self Certification on their Professional Qualifications?

It sure would save a bundle on higher education costs.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 20, 2010 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Jake, make sure you buy lots of their condom products so you don't procreate.

God knows one of you is enough.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

OT, but that nasty liberal blog Think Progress just won't let up on the CofC. Outsourcing of jobs should be an issue we all care about. Since we know who's promoting it, and which candidates they're supporting, we know who NOT to vote for.

OnT, I wonder how much money the CofC has funneled into Rand's campaign.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Among the many lies told by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce recently, chief Chamber lobbyist Bruce Josten said that his organization’s foreign affiliates, called AmChams, are only “comprised of American companies doing business abroad in those countries.” In fact, the Chinese AmCham is comprised of Chinese firms like Northern Light Venture Capital; the AmCham in Russia is comprised of Russian state-run companies like VTB Bank; and, the AmCham of Abu Dhabi is comprised of UAE state-run oil companies.

The ties between the AmChams and the U.S. Chamber are deep. In addition to sharing staff members, the Chinese AmCham has worked closely with the U.S. Chamber and the Chinese government to sponsor a series of seminars in America to teach American businesses how to outsource jobs to China (called the China Grassroots Program). Below is an invite to an event sponsored by the right-wing billionaire Sheldon Adelson, inviting local businesses in Florida to come to Jacksonville and learn about outsourcing from Chinese government officials like Li Haiyan, the Counselor for Economic Affairs for the People’s Republic of China, U.S. Chamber lobbyist Joseph Fawkner, and BChinaB, a firm that specializes in helping American firms outsource their manufacturing jobs to China."

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/19/chamber-chinese-seminar/

Posted by: lmsinca | October 20, 2010 12:20 PM | Report abuse

Koch/Chamber/Teaparty/GOP leaders are for lower American wages and higher pollution.

That's pretty much what their focus has been in the last 30 years it seems.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:23 PM | Report abuse

For those of you who don't really understand the national sales tax, let me give you a lesson. The sales tax would be more like 34 percent of retail sales prices to bring in the same revenue as the taxes it would replace, meaning that an automobile with a retail price of $10,000 would cost $13,400 including the new sales tax. A number of people pointed out that H.R. 25, the specific bill mentioned by Gov. Huckabee, calls for a 23 percent retail sales tax and not the 34 percent used by the Advisory Panel on Tax Reform. That 23 percent number, however, is misleading and based on some extremely optimistic assumptions. We found that while there are several good economic arguments for the FairTax, unless you earn more than $200,000 per year, fairness is not one of them.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

Posted by: baltimorecaudills | October 20, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

OT but sbj, did you catch all the Republicans praising the Log Cabin Republicans defeating DADT in the courts? I can't get over the complete 180 all those Republicans have had on this issue. I mean, this is the biggest coming out in support of a minority group in the U.S. from Republicans since Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation!

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

The Chamber Of Con Artists is for Outsourcing Jobs to where they can take advantage of cheap foreign labor, and no environmental regulations. They also insist on being granted tax breaks for all such outsourcing of American jobs.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 20, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

"Koch/Chamber/Teaparty/GOP leaders are for lower American wages and higher pollution."

BINGO.

They are also for a illegal immigrants being abused in the shadowy netherworld of the American economy and the ability for massive too-big-to-fail banks and hedge funds screwing consumers in every way possible.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 20, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

@mike: "Breaking new ground in the Republican Party’s relationship with the gay community, the leaders of the GOP’s two congressional campaign committees will be honored at a fundraising reception hosted by the Log Cabin Republicans... Senator John Cornyn (R-TX), Chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, and Representative Pete Sessions (R-TX), Chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee, are this year’s recipients of the Barry Goldwater Award... Neither Texan has a particularly strong gay-rights record. Both oppose same-sex marriage and Cornyn, just on Tuesday, joined other Republicans in blocking consideration of an amendment to end Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. But being honored at the Log Cabin event is both remarkable and historic, reflecting a small but important tectonic shift in GOP politics."

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 12:37 PM | Report abuse

"Someone give me one idea of Rand Paul's that's good for the middle class."

You should have substituted "Rand Paul's"
for "the GOP". THEY DON'T CARE about the working and middle class. Dana Milbank's column today says what the rest of us have known , and that is that the Tea Party types have been used by the corporate interests to advance their agenda.H.L. Mencken would have loved to live in 21st century America.
The whole voter suppression effort that is going on in the Southwest is a desperate stop gap measure for the GOP. Not just for this election, but especially for 2012.
I think the whole issue of big corporate secret money is going to be a major issue for Obama in 2012.

Posted by: filmnoia | October 20, 2010 12:38 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Koch/American For Prosperity....

Remember, they are the same group that got caught on camera doing this..

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/251044/october-05-2009/americans-for-prosperity-cheer-chicago-s-failure

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:38 PM | Report abuse

I think all the Tea Party candidates across the country should denounce the amount of money the CofC is donating to their campaigns and to prove once an for all they're a grassroots organization, only take money from small donors. It's the "commonsense conservative" thing to do.

Posted by: lmsinca | October 20, 2010 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Following the link above, this is the entire Paul quote: "I'm in favor of any change in the tax code that reduces the overall tax burden," Paul told Americans for Fair Taxation volunteer Terry Schmitt of Paducah in a brief video interview in February. "That would include the FairTax, changing to a sales tax. One great advantage of it would be no more IRS, no more income tax, no more reams of paper that we all have to deal with."

Read more: http://www.kentucky.com/2010/10/15/1481240/rand-paul-sen-campaign-denies.html#ixzz12uxLBFr4
------------------------------------
I have always believed that when the real-world implications of a national sales tax is explained to real people who have trouble paying for gas and groceries, this is another idea that will go down in flames.

I don't think the issue is whether it's 34% or 23%. Hard working people can't imagine how they could pay it.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 20, 2010 12:42 PM | Report abuse

'Yea! Corwynn is coming guys! See, I told you they secretly love us! It's just a matter of time before they secretly stop making jokes about us or their base isn't openly hostile to us.'

And re Ethan, of course they are for illegal immigration.

There's a reason why Republicans are against amnesty and would prefer the status quo. Business has cheap labor that doesn't have to abide by minimum wage and labor laws.

Cheap illegal immigrants is a Republican Utopian dream!

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:44 PM | Report abuse

For those of you who don't really understand the national sales tax, let me give you a lesson. The sales tax would be more like 34 percent of retail sales prices to bring in the same revenue as the taxes it would replace, meaning that an automobile with a retail price of $10,000 would cost $13,400 including the new sales tax. A number of people pointed out that H.R. 25, the specific bill mentioned by Gov. Huckabee, calls for a 23 percent retail sales tax and not the 34 percent used by the Advisory Panel on Tax Reform. That 23 percent number, however, is misleading and based on some extremely optimistic assumptions. We found that while there are several good economic arguments for the FairTax, unless you earn more than $200,000 per year, fairness is not one of them.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

Posted by: baltimorecaudills | October 20, 2010 12:29 PM

.......................

It sounds like a great way to suppress consumer demand, and stall any jobs creating recovery.

With that amount of VAT added on to retail consumer goods, it would not be long, before there would be a thriving underground black market, where no taxes at all get collected. That sure will do wonders for balancing federal budgets, and achieving an annual revenue surplus, to start paying down the national debt.

Of course on top of the steep national VAT, the local governments will still apply local sales taxes. They are not going to surrender that revenue source.

It also would seriously impact online retailers, such as Amazon. Once they will be required to collect VAT and sales taxes, they will have no real advantage, over local merchants, and absolutely none at all over local black marketers.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 20, 2010 12:45 PM | Report abuse

"Cheap illegal immigrants is a Republican Utopian dream!"

Totally.

And an economic and humanitarian nightmare.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 20, 2010 12:46 PM | Report abuse

"It's the "commonsense conservative" thing to do."

LOL. They'd accept money from bin Laden if it meant retaking the House on Nov. 2nd.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Man I'm OT all over the place but:

10/19/10 Muhlenberg permalink Sestak (D) 44.0% Toomey (R) 41.0%
10/18/10 PPP (D) permalink Sestak (D) 46.0% Toomey (R) 45.0%


DROOL!!!

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:49 PM | Report abuse

@lms: The tea party candidates are getting an unprecedented amount of their campaign contributions from individual donors of $200 or less. "This appears to negate the notion that the Tea Party is a corporate-driven movement." (Hot Air)

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20019800-503544.html

"The small donor trend for Tea Partiers is unprecedented," says Sheila Krumholz of the Center for Responsive Politics... Typically, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, Senate candidates get no more than 20 percent of their funds from small donors. But the latest numbers available from the Federal Elections Commission for some Tea Party favorites show much higher stats.

As of the second quarter, small donors filled about one-third of the campaign chests of Pennsylvania's Pat Toomey (30 percent, $3 million) and Florida's Marco Rubio (36 percent, $4.6 million). They accounted for nearly half of the funds for Delaware's Christine O'Donnell (45 percent, $119,000) and Kentucky's Rand Paul (46 percent, $1.6 million). And they made up more than half of the early donations given to Alaska's Joe Miller (51 percent, $144,000) and Nevada's Sharron Angle (58 percent $2.05 million)."

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 12:49 PM | Report abuse

sbj, the official donations this year are a drop in the bucket compared to the outside money. The ratio must be like 20 to 1.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

MUST-READ!

- Commodity Futures Trading Commission judge says colleague biased against complainants -

In a notice recently released by the CFTC, Painter said Judge Bruce Levine, his longtime colleague, had a secret agreement with a former Republican chairwoman of the agency to stand in the way of investors filing complaints with the agency.

"On Judge Levine's first week on the job, nearly twenty years ago, he came into my office and stated that he had promised Wendy Gramm, then Chairwoman of the Commission, that we would never rule in a complainant's favor," Painter wrote. "A review of his rulings will confirm that he fulfilled his vow," Painter wrote.

Painter continued: "Judge Levine, in the cynical guise of enforcing the rules, forces pro se complainants to run a hostile procedural gauntlet until they lose hope, and either withdraw their complaint or settle for a pittance, regardless of the merits of the case."

[...]

Wendy Gramm is listed as a distinguished senior scholar at George Mason University's Mercatus Center, but a spokeswoman for the center, Catherine Behan, said Gramm is not active there.

Gramm was head of the CFTC just before president Bill Clinton took office. She has been criticized by Democrats for helping firms such as Goldman Sachs and Enron gain influence over the commodity markets. After leaving the CFTC, she joined Enron's board.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/19/AR2010101907216.html

mikefromArlington, good timing right?

Phil Gramm
Wendy Gramm
Enron
Koch
Chamber of Con Artists

These people literally make me sick.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 20, 2010 12:53 PM | Report abuse

Mercutus Group is funded by Koch.

It's a web of political influential corruption.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:55 PM | Report abuse

OT:

HUGE opening for Feingold!

- Ron Johnson Freezes When Asked For His Plan To Help Middle Class -

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/ron-johnson-freezes-when-asked-for-plan-to-help-middle-class.php

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 20, 2010 12:57 PM | Report abuse

This is a far better ad.

This is what people care about, not "Aqua Budha".

Posted by: maritza1 | October 20, 2010 12:57 PM | Report abuse

sbj doesn't mind being misleading so long as it is in support of psychopaths and retarded assh0les.

Posted by: pragmaticstill | October 20, 2010 12:58 PM | Report abuse

Mercatus Group was also behind the literature written in conjunction with a GMU professor used by Ken Kuccinelli, the new Virginia right wing AG, to go after UVA scientists who's writings were used by the EPA to use as justification for placing caps on CO2 emissions. That GMU professor is now under investigation by GMU.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/10/gmu_investigating_climate_chan.html

Koch, back in the 80's found out he couldn't win directly, so he's set up a network in Universities (Mercatus), public broadcasting (http://climateprogress.org/2010/09/07/pbs-ombudsman-michael-getler-whitewashes-the-koch-funded-greenwashing-episode-of-nova-that-whitewashes-the-threat-of-human-caused-climate-change/) , think Tanks (CATO, Heritage Funding), astro-turfing specialists (Americans for Prosperity) to do what the Oligarchs in Russia did to gain control.

The heat needs to be turned up on him and those he's bringing under his control. We are being taken over by them through lower wages and higher pollution all so they can gain more control.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Go psychopaths and retarded assh0les!

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

sbj: "@icrider: The point is that Greg has been bitterly complaining about misleading advertisements for a couple of weeks now. This one is very misleading and I do not see one word of condemnation. That's hypocritical (and Greg is not normally hypocritical). "

This is not a misleading ad. It says that he wants to replace the income tax with a sale tax. What is misleading about that?

Posted by: michiganmaine | October 20, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Here's the calculus for the hardly-making-it-now guy making $40,000/yr. If he rents, he pays federal income taxes of $4200 (~10%).

Now, he spends every dime he earns on rent, food, gas, entertainment such as he can afford. He doesn't make enough money to save money. If he pays 23% on all that stuff, he pays $9200 (~23%).

You can see the problem right away--$4200 vs $9200. I doubt that guy would see much fair about that. In addition, he can't pay the increased taxes anyway. He'll have to drop his standard of living--no movies, no McD's, sell his car and ride the bus,etc.) He sure can't go to his boss and ask for more money, can he?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 20, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

@michigan: "It says that he wants to replace the income tax with a sale tax."

No it doesn't.

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 1:19 PM | Report abuse

Please don't call it a "Fair" tax. There's nothing fair about taking part of a poor family's "needs" money while barely touching a rich family's "wants" money.

Posted by: Dema | October 20, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

OT - This is funny

*****

Jon Runyan, a former pro football player and now the Republican nominee against freshman Rep. John Adler (D-NJ), has added his voice to the recent constitutional jurisprudence of GOP candidates -- listing the 1857 Dred Scott v. Sanford Supreme Court decision as a recent case that he disagreed with.

As the Asbury Park Press reports, from a debate last night:

"Jon, it's a different branch of government, but can you give me an example from the last 10 or 15 years of a Supreme Court decision in which you strongly disagree?" Adler asked.

"That I strongly disagree with?" Runyan asked, pausing for a moment to consider the question. "Dred Scott."

There was some laughter in the audience.Adler then asked the question again, pointing out that he asked for decisions in the previous 10-15 years. Runyan was reportedly unable to give an answer.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/goper-runyan-lists-dred-scott-as-recent-scotus-decision-he-disagreed-with-video.php?ref=fpblg

Posted by: PaciolisRevenge | October 20, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

All, new poll numbers show that the enthusiasm gap is BLEEDIN' AWFUL for Dems:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/10/that_enthusiasm_gap_remains_aw.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | October 20, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

sbj: "'It says that he wants to replace the income tax with a sale tax.' No it doesn't."

Listen to it again. It says it outright once, and implies it two more times.

"favor a sales tax OVER an income tax."

"CHANGING to a sales tax."

"I would RATHER have a sales tax."

Not misleading at all. It is very clear. He would "favor a sales tax over an income tax."

What is misleading? Nothing.

Posted by: michiganmaine | October 20, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

Go psychopaths and retarded assh0les!

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 1:10 PM
=======================

For this to be satire, it has to be clear that you aren't really cheering for them.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | October 20, 2010 1:29 PM | Report abuse

@michiganmaine,

I think that the ad is very effective in explaining the psychological effect of a 23% national sales tax to the ordinary person. The words clearly say that this is an alternative to the income tax. But, the power of the images and the 23% overwhelms the words. It shows that an image is worth a thousand words.

You notice that they didn't use the images of paying 23% on your next sailboat or round the world cruise or golfcart.

Even the background music was very effective in calming down the person to focus on the images.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 20, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues,

I agree with you. But that doesn't mean that ad misleadingly claims that that he wants the sales tax added to one's income tax.

But, yes, it is quite well crafted. I agree.

Posted by: michiganmaine | October 20, 2010 1:44 PM | Report abuse

But that doesn't mean that ad misleadingly claims that that he wants the sales tax added to one's income tax.
---------------------------------
The ad is not misleading in its totality. What it does, very effectively, is present to the watcher the real world effect of the national sales tax scheme. It's sort of like having a guy with a big black gun pointing it into your forehead. You "know" that there is a hand holding the gun, and an arm, and a guy attached to the arm, but all you see is the black end where the bullet comes out. That's sbj's complaint.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 20, 2010 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Actually, sbj claimed that the ad did not say that Paul "wants to replace the income tax with a sale tax." It does say that. Sbj is thus wrong. Otherwise we agree. Anyhow, enough on that.

Posted by: michiganmaine | October 20, 2010 1:54 PM | Report abuse

There is a certain level of conduct the nation should be able to expect from an Attorney General. Clealy Conway has not met that level.


Not only should Conway lose the election, Conway should be impeached.

Posted by: LeafofLife | October 20, 2010 2:31 PM | Report abuse

"Actually, sbj claimed that the ad did not say that Paul "wants to replace the income tax with a sale tax." It does say that."

Er, no it doesn't.

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse

Sbj,

Read the quotes.

"favor a sales tax OVER an income tax."

"CHANGING to a sales tax."

"I would RATHER have a sales tax."

Posted by: michiganmaine | October 20, 2010 2:38 PM | Report abuse

@37th..STRF..leaf whatever the eff you're calling yourself today...do even YOU take yourself seriously. Really. If there is any impeachment taking place..something you constantly whine about...it should be you from this blog. ;-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | October 20, 2010 2:46 PM | Report abuse

"Imagine the compounding result of loss of tax revenue during a recession."

I know! Can you imagine teh horror of all those Americans being able to spend their money how they want instead of giving it to politicians to spend it on their own special interest groups!!?? That's called economic freedom... and we can't have that or else the politicians will lose all their power. TEH HORRORRRRRRR!!!!!!

Posted by: millionea81 | October 20, 2010 2:47 PM | Report abuse

@mm: The ad does *not* say that Paul "wants to replace the income tax with a sale tax."

Read the quote above - where does it say that in the advertisement?

It doesn't.

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 3:03 PM | Report abuse

sbj,

You seem to be having a very hard time understanding the plain English in this ad. I don't think I can help you any more than I have. Best of luck.

Posted by: michiganmaine | October 20, 2010 3:20 PM | Report abuse

Buh-bye!

Posted by: sbj3 | October 20, 2010 3:31 PM | Report abuse

Paul has that stoner laugh paired with ideas that are straight out of a weekend long bong session. I remember them from my college days...but I grew up.

Posted by: notfooledbydistractions1 | October 20, 2010 3:56 PM | Report abuse

I live in Lexington.
Do you really think if Conway wins, he is going to be a lapdog for Obama?
If he is, just wait for his first Town Hall Meeting.

Posted by: fprawl | October 20, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

We do not want lapdogs. That is what Republicans are for The Chamber Of Con Artists.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 20, 2010 4:36 PM | Report abuse

The so-called "fair tax" or flat tax is the most regressive tax there is and hits the poorest hardest since they spend most of their income. Ky is the 48th poorest state. Why in the world would they vote for Rand Paul? For that matter, why would anybody? I like Conway's tactics, making Paul cower. He is not fit for public office; Conway is proving this.

Posted by: ElinorMiller | October 20, 2010 7:25 PM | Report abuse

The so-called "fair tax" or flat tax is the most regressive tax there is and hits the poorest hardest since they spend most of their income. Ky is one of America's poorest states. Why in the world would they vote for Rand Paul? For that matter, why would anybody? I like Conway's tactics, making Paul cower. He is not fit for public office; Conway is proving this.

Posted by: ElinorMiller | October 20, 2010 7:28 PM | Report abuse

Herman Cain Rebuts Misleading Ad Against FairTax.

Check out this video at the web sight below to get the truth about the FairTax that Jack Conway is not telling you about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfEjcnS-244

Posted by: rhernly1 | October 20, 2010 10:02 PM | Report abuse

Several commenters here demonstrate that they don't understand the Fair Tax proposal, and of course the ad is totally misleading. I encourage everyone to go to fairtax.org and read the extensive materials there.

The Fair Tax includes a rebate to every household for taxes they would pay on spending all of a poverty level income, so families at the poverty level would pay no net federal taxes. This would make it not regressive.

It would abolish the IRS, personal and corporate income taxes and payroll taxes. The tremendous drag on the economy from every household and business having to fill out IRS forms would disappear.

Business labor costs would drop 7% (no payroll taxes), take-home pay would jump, and prices would no longer have to support corporate income taxes (companies don't pay taxes--their customers do), so to stay competitive, businesses would lower their prices, partially offsetting the sales tax.

Prices for American goods sold oversees would also not have to support business taxes, so those goods would be more competitive without having to weaken the dollar to achieve that end. A weaker dollar raises the prices of imports and drives away investment. More exports means more jobs in this country.

The current system penalizes the things the economy needs--work, hiring, saving, and investment--by taxing them. The Fair Tax would reverse that by removing taxes on all of those things, and only taxing consumption. It was an overload of debt by everyone, not just the government, that got us into this mess. (The total debt level relative to the economy was the highest since 1929.) Replacing income and payroll taxes with a national sales tax would provide a disincentive for that behavior.

The Fair Tax would unshackle the economy and unleash one of the greatest surges in job creation and economic growth that we have seen.

Posted by: dhartley | October 21, 2010 1:11 AM | Report abuse

TO ALL CRITICS OF THE FAIR TAX:

If you are going to criticize the plan, why don't you demonstrate your "vast knowledge" of the plan and give some examples? My guess is that there's very few 'critics' who even know what they're talking about.

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 7:51 AM | Report abuse

"Here's the calculus for the hardly-making-it-now guy making $40,000/yr. If he rents, he pays federal income taxes of $4200 (~10%).

Now, he spends every dime he earns on rent, food, gas, entertainment such as he can afford. He doesn't make enough money to save money. If he pays 23% on all that stuff, he pays $9200 (~23%).

You can see the problem right away--$4200 vs $9200. I doubt that guy would see much fair about that. In addition, he can't pay the increased taxes anyway. He'll have to drop his standard of living--no movies, no McD's, sell his car and ride the bus,etc.) He sure can't go to his boss and ask for more money, can he?

Posted by: 12BarBlues"


If you are going to be a critic, wouldn't it be a good idea to know what you are talking about? You forgot to calculate the prebate that is paid every month to cover the cost of necessities and the fact, that for once in his life, he'll be bringing home an entire paycheck; no deductions. Now, you are probably saying, "prebate? what prebate?" and "he get's to keep his ENTIRE paycheck? All 40 hours worth?" What a critic?! Do you actually want to learn something? Try reading here: http://www.Fairtax.org.

Go ahead. I dare you!

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 8:04 AM | Report abuse

"What he is proposing is a VAT(national value added tax). Republican Gov. Of Indiana, Mitch Daniels recently said that he favored imposing a national VAT, on top of local sales taxes.

And you really believed the Republicans, when they said they did not want America to be governed, like the EU nations are. O you gullible Tea Party fools.

Posted by: Liam-still"

I KNOW you don't even know what you are talking about. The Fair Tax is not a VAT. The income tax is a 'VAT.' The only resemblence between a VAT and the Fair Tax is they are both sales taxes. There the similarities end. A VAT, value added tax, is calculated at EACH step of production and added to the cost. The Fair Tax is calculated ONCE at the final point of sale on all NEW goods and services and eliminates the income tax and the payroll witholding that goes with it.

Why not read and learn before you try to be a critic? http://www.fairtax.org

I dare you!


Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 8:16 AM | Report abuse

"@NicholasLeCompte: By endorsing the so-called "Fair Tax", he endorses its stated 23% rate.

See http://bit.ly/cO1fFc

Posted by: tbetz"

What can you even tell me about the Fair Tax? What's the plan? What's in it? What does it do?

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 8:21 AM | Report abuse

"For those of you who don't really understand the national sales tax, let me give you a lesson. The sales tax would be more like 34 percent of retail sales prices to bring in the same revenue as the taxes it would replace, meaning that an automobile with a retail price of $10,000 would cost $13,400 including the new sales tax. A number of people pointed out that H.R. 25, the specific bill mentioned by Gov. Huckabee, calls for a 23 percent retail sales tax and not the 34 percent used by the Advisory Panel on Tax Reform. That 23 percent number, however, is misleading and based on some extremely optimistic assumptions. We found that while there are several good economic arguments for the FairTax, unless you earn more than $200,000 per year, fairness is not one of them.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

Posted by: baltimorecaudills | October 20, 2010 12:29 PM"

I bet you have went all over the web and read every critic and have never once went to the source, have you? Let me give YOU a LESSON. You're playing slight of hand when you quote the Pres. Adv. Council report as an authority against the Fair Tax. The Pres. Council indeed calculated a sales tax, however, the sales tax they used in their calculations was NOT the Fair Tax but a sales tax of their own creation.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=-1&page=NewsArticle&id=8263

And a little something for Factcheck.org: http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=-1&page=NewsArticle&id=8249

I bet you will bring up something from Bartlett next. You critics keep repeating the same arguments from the same tired old articles that are over ten years old (same for the "research") and have been rebutted repeatedly. Here's an idea. Why not come up with something new or, something you probably haven't tried, how about going to the supporters for a switch? You might actually learn something. http://www.fairtax.org

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 8:41 AM | Report abuse

"For those of you who don't really understand the national sales tax, let me give you a lesson. The sales tax would be more like 34 percent of retail sales prices to bring in the same revenue as the taxes it would replace, meaning that an automobile with a retail price of $10,000 would cost $13,400 including the new sales tax. A number of people pointed out that H.R. 25, the specific bill mentioned by Gov. Huckabee, calls for a 23 percent retail sales tax and not the 34 percent used by the Advisory Panel on Tax Reform. That 23 percent number, however, is misleading and based on some extremely optimistic assumptions. We found that while there are several good economic arguments for the FairTax, unless you earn more than $200,000 per year, fairness is not one of them.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

Posted by: baltimorecaudills | October 20, 2010 12:29 PM"

I bet you have went all over the web and read every critic and have never once went to the source, have you? Let me give YOU a LESSON. You're playing slight of hand when you quote the Pres. Adv. Council report as an authority against the Fair Tax. The Pres. Council indeed calculated a sales tax, however, the sales tax they used in their calculations was NOT the Fair Tax but a sales tax of their own creation.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=-1&page=NewsArticle&id=8263

And a little something for Factcheck.org: http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=-1&page=NewsArticle&id=8249

I bet you will bring up something from Bartlett next. You critics keep repeating the same arguments from the same tired old articles that are over ten years old (same for the "research") and have been rebutted repeatedly. Here's an idea. Why not come up with something new or, something you probably haven't tried, how about going to the supporters for a switch? You might actually learn something. http://www.fairtax.org

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 8:46 AM | Report abuse

"to troll sbj3, sure, income taxes would go down, but for folks who pay under 23% tax (and that's a lot of people) - a national sales tax would be both regressive and disastrous.

Paul is running away from this because he knows it's a campaign killer.

Posted by: lcrider1 | October 20, 2010 12:07 PM"

"...income taxes will go down..." go down? Income tax is ELIMINATED. They go "way down" to 0% for EVERYONE. Do you actually know anything about the Fair Tax or have you just been reading critics?

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 8:51 AM | Report abuse

"Please don't call it a "Fair" tax. There's nothing fair about taking part of a poor family's "needs" money while barely touching a rich family's "wants" money.

Posted by: Dema | October 20, 2010 1:20 PM"

Do you know what you are talking about? Your concern for the poor family is hypocritical. Under the Fair Tax, not only does that poor family get to keep what income they make (no deductions from paychecks) they get a prebate each month for taxes on necessities and more choice on how much they pay in taxes; since only NEW items are taxed under the Fair Tax and I don't know many poor people here in the projects that are buying new anything if they can avoid it. More money in the paycheck means more opportunity to save and invest without being penalized as under the income tax and pay their own bills first rather than having the govt. get it's bills paid first, irregardless of the condition of that poor family, through the income tax and payroll deductions. How is that poor family going to be anything other than poor without working, saving and investing? All of which are tax free under the Fair Tax.

Do you know the system you support? Not only does it take money out of that poor family's income EVERY paycheck, it doesn't give a d-mn if that poor man is struggling, the money is gone before he get's his check anyway. It started taking money from them the day they started working and won't even stop after death thanks to estate taxes. You may say, "they'll get a refund." Yeah, and they have to wait a year for it, be out the expense of filing and get what the govt. has decided they deserve to keep and collect what has been a year long interest free loan to the govt. (If he owed one cent, fines, penalties...)If they work, they're taxed. If they save, they're taxed. If they invest, they're taxed. Wonder why so many end up staying poor? One plan, the Fair Tax, gives that money back. Yours, the income tax, keeps taking it from them. You're "concerned for the poor." BULLSH*T!

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 9:22 AM | Report abuse

"Please don't call this a fair tax, lol.

Imagine the compounding result of loss of tax revenue during a recession. Plus, imagine the black market that would spring up in the U.S.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 20, 2010 12:01 PM"

Really? You ought to look up last years sales totals on new items and multiply that by 23% and then do a comparison between that answer an what is and IS NOT (tax gap) brought in by the income tax through the IRS and associated costs and the total cost of compliance. Under the Fair Tax, everyone get's 100% of their pay, retailers like Walmart are the collectors meaning a reduction of filers, cost of compliance and a more effective adminstration of tax with smaller force with an added benefit of allowing every taxpayer more decision in the amount of tax paid, instead of the "let the govt. take money out of my check and decide how much I'll pay" approach. Considering 45 states already have a sales tax, where are the treasury busts and "sales tax scams" today? None existent. The same under the Fair Tax and people will have MORE money to buy with than under the income tax. Here's someplace you've never been: http://www.fairtax.org Why don't you try one of the other 'Fair Tax five' next or post something from Bartlett, Factcheck, Pres. council, etc.? You know, the same old tired arguments from ten years ago that have been rebutted ad nauseum and come from the same tired old critics who have been rebutted ad nauseum.

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 9:42 AM | Report abuse

Which is lower? Work a 40 hr. week at 8.50/hr. and bring home a total of $340 or work a 40 hr. week at 8.50/hr. and bring home the minimum wage equivalent thanks to the income tax?

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 9:49 AM | Report abuse

I think all the Tea Party candidates across the country should denounce the amount of money the CofC is donating to their campaigns and to prove once an for all they're a grassroots organization, only take money from small donors. It's the "commonsense conservative" thing to do.

Posted by: lmsinca | October 20, 2010 12:40 PM"

Right after Democrats denounce money from rich Democrats or rich labor unions (the poor don't have any money)?

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 9:56 AM | Report abuse

"But that doesn't mean that ad misleadingly claims that that he wants the sales tax added to one's income tax.
---------------------------------
The ad is not misleading in its totality. What it does, very effectively, is present to the watcher the real world effect of the national sales tax scheme. It's sort of like having a guy with a big black gun pointing it into your forehead. You "know" that there is a hand holding the gun, and an arm, and a guy attached to the arm, but all you see is the black end where the bullet comes out. That's sbj's complaint.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 20, 2010 1:52 PM"

"...You "know" that there is a hand holding the gun, and an arm, and a guy attached to the arm, but all you see is the black end where the bullet comes out."

Now THAT describes the income tax! Think it doesn't? Try to go to work in a warehouse/factory and see if you bring home 100% of your pay?

Posted by: deaj5514 | October 21, 2010 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Game over, no one that thinks would vote for Jackass Conway. the way he has gone with this campain I may never vote for the dems again..attacking him for his college days is over the top..even your own party @ Chris Mathews thought it was over the top...Jack Conway in college wore a dress in public(toga party wink wink) you are a joke to the great state and we wont fall for your garbage

Posted by: 15peyton | October 21, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

I wish people would educate themselves on issues & I wish that news media would help educate them. Because of the Supreme Court ruling about campaign contributions there is really no way to know who is pouring money into what campaign. I won't be voting for any candidate who doesn't sign the Pledge to Pass Fair Elections http://fairelectionsnow.org/action/voters-first-pledge
There is misinformation about the Fair Tax. The Fair Tax would replace the present tax system. No more IRS & its confusing rules, no more forms to fill out, no more government in your business, & only new items are taxed. (http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main)
The candidate can waste what they want on ads & such, but it doesn't influence me because I refuse to watch the propaganda. I research each candidate on a couple of non partisan sites that has their positions & their records. This means I'm in control of my vote .I hope that everyone will take some time to explore the candidate positions at a non biased site before voting.
The time has come for us to quit assuming you throw away your vote when you vote for a 3rd party candidate . Neither party has the answers & only cares about THEIR POWER. So let's vote ALL the bums out.
I won’t be voting for any tea party candidate either because frankly they scare me with their religious fervor, members who have no idea how the process works (everyone has to prove they were born here) & their cozying up to the Republican party. This was certainly evident at Glen Becks rally.
I am going to be voting for people I believe will only stay in office 1 or 2 terms & will bring about the changes badly needed.
No matter how you feel about the issues, our country is losing the battle to compete. Unless we have a good affordable health-care system (like every other industrialized nation) we will not gain back our place.
We need jobs & if the health-care issue is resolved then it may help get manufacturing back here. Companies must be shamed about outsourcing. It’s already been proven that the savings are not that great. So, why destroy the nation that allowed you success?
Taking away the tax credits for outsourcing jobs is another issue that must be resolved.
We must fix the way bills are passed. Each bill should only have 1 issue & everyone voting for it should sign a statement that they have read & understand the bill & accept the consequences of the bill. I love Prop 25 out of Calif.
I also think that if we don't get COLA they don't get raises & their raises should be controlled by us.
Illegal aliens must be returned to their county & a good system must be implemented to allow guest workers while still allowing us to make sure they don’t overstay.. We can’t tolerate a porous border any longer. Calling illegal aliens undocumented workers is like calling a bank robbery an undocumented withdrawal. Both are crimes PERIOD.
We must vote if our country is to survive to provide a great place for our future citizens.

Posted by: Charli1 | October 21, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

LETS STOP WITH THE LIES PLEASE !

The fair tax advocates 23% on purchases and goods that will replace ALL taxes including fed,fica ,state etc..........

READ THE ARTICLES and learn something for yourself. Please America......quit being so ignorant.

Posted by: dwinc | October 23, 2010 11:33 PM | Report abuse

LETS STOP WITH THE LIES PLEASE !

The fair tax advocates 23% on purchases and goods that will replace ALL taxes including fed,fica ,state etc..........

READ THE ARTICLES and learn something for yourself. Please America......quit being so ignorant.

Posted by: dwinc | October 23, 2010 11:34 PM | Report abuse

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