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Sharron Angle: "I'll answer those questions when I'm the Senator"

This video of Sharron Angle is destined for cable play: It shows her refusing to answer a reporter's questions about national security policy and a local air force base, instead informing him smugly that "I'll answer those questions when I'm the Senator":

Angle, pressed by the reporter for her views on Iraq and Afghanistan, would only offer this cryptic reply:

"You know, the two wars that we're in right now is exactly what we're in."

I suppose we'll soon find out if you can get elected to the Senate despite treating the fourth estate as if it plays no legitimate role whatsoever in our democracy.

By Greg Sargent  | October 29, 2010; 4:34 PM ET
Categories:  2010 elections, Political media, Senate Republicans, Tea Party  
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Comments

Actually the leveling of False Charge of Racism is designed to intimidate people into not exercising their Freedom of Speech.

It is just like Voter Intimidation - designed to prevent people from exercising their civil rights to vote.

So, False Charges of Racism is bullying - and it is RACIST AGAINST WHITES - because it is only used to intimidate whites into not excercising their civil rights Freedom of Speech.


Blacks are never subjected to these false charges or bullying.


The fact that the Obama people have engaged in these bullying tactics is a campaign issue this year.

The conduct of Obama and his people has been disgraceful.

The tactics of the Obama and his people are nothing less than UNAMERICAN.

We, as Americans, can not have a fully functioning Republic with these Obama bullying tactics being put in place all over the nation.

It is important to speak out against these Obama bullying tactics - and shame them into halting these practices.

The tactics of Obama calling people RACIST just to silence them, or to diminish the level of opposition to policies - is simply RACIST AGAINST WHITES. It is a campaign issue - and it should be denounced by all Americans who love our political system.


.

Posted by: MachSeven | October 29, 2010 4:38 PM | Report abuse

"I'll answer those questions when I'm the Senator"

That's like waiting to pass legislation before we find out what's in it. Hey, wait a second . . .

"You know, the two wars that we're in right now is exactly what we're in."

From the Department of Redundancy Department. Or The Tautological Department of Crafting Tautologies.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | October 29, 2010 4:43 PM | Report abuse

Good for her, when there is a multitude of reporters seeking to find anything they can to TWIST or make someone look bad, then defensive measures are justified.

At this point, the liberals in the lamestream media have done so much to smear people that the candidates are right to be extremely cautious. It is an atmosphere created by the media.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 4:48 PM | Report abuse

Why doesn't Harry bust a Gawker "One Night Stand" story on her as well?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | October 29, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse

This is my opinion, but her behavior is wholly un-American.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 29, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

OT:

Fyi, an update on the terrorist bomb attempt:

President Obama, speaking this afternoon about the suspicious devices discovered on flights to the U.S., said the packages constituted a "credible terrorist threat" and that an "initial examination of those packages has determined that they do apparently contain explosive material."

Obama said that the packages, which were found last night on U.S.-bound flights in Dubai and near London, were addressed to "two places of Jewish worship in Chicago." He confirmed that the packages had originated in Yemen, and suggested that Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula might be responsible.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/obama_packages_from_yemen_contained_explosive_mate.php

Targeting Jews, eh?

Time to kick some terrorist a$$.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 29, 2010 4:53 PM | Report abuse

"lame"stream media=the cleverest thing that dimwit Palin et al. could come up with. Repeat at your own risk.

To Angle, I'm sure these were deep answers.

Posted by: nyskinsdiehard | October 29, 2010 4:54 PM | Report abuse

"It should be denounced by all Americans who love our political system."

Our political system sucks. Are you kidding me? Who could like this shlock?

Posted by: cao091402 | October 29, 2010 4:54 PM | Report abuse

Thomas Jefferson REFUSED to answer questions in 1800 about his alleged fathering of slave children -- not to mention that video "cameras" weren't even used in the American media prior to Ike's presidency -- what about this video of Rep. Etheridge (D-NC)?

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/06/14/video-rep-etheridge-assaults-student-on-street/

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 4:54 PM | Report abuse

Just to be clear, I'm not saying democracy sucks. It's the best. I'm talking about fraud, distortions, soundbites, etc that make you wonder why you bother voting. Then you remember you have to if you want to keep those tactics from working.

Posted by: cao091402 | October 29, 2010 4:56 PM | Report abuse

"Obama said that the packages, which were found last night on U.S.-bound flights in Dubai and near London, were addressed to "two places of Jewish worship in Chicago."

Uuuggghhhh....my husband's going to be catching a flight home from Dubai in a few hours.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | October 29, 2010 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Jake,

No one asked Angle if she had given birth to illegitimate children. The questions were about national security policy. I'm hardly surprised that you see no distinction.

As for Rep. Etheridge, he publicly apologized. But of course you know that.

Angle, of course, will not apologize.

Posted by: bearclaw1 | October 29, 2010 5:00 PM | Report abuse

I'm also sure that Angle's incisive analysis of national security issues qualifies her to run on the Republican ticket in 2 yrs. I can't wait!

Posted by: nyskinsdiehard | October 29, 2010 5:00 PM | Report abuse

JakeD2 is comparing Angle to Jefferson, or something....

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 29, 2010 5:01 PM | Report abuse

Jake

Do you think Greg Sargent is repeating himself with two straight threads about Sharon Angle - making the same point?

How about the 4 straight postings earlier this week - all making the same point - on the woman who could have attacked Rand Paul?

OR how about Greg repeating himself about the disclosure of campaign contributions?

Or how about Greg repeating that Obama did not take $500 Billion out of Medicare - just to pretend his health care plan was "paid for"

Repeating? Or just the same thing over again for the first time?

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 29, 2010 5:02 PM | Report abuse

This thread and last thread, 90% junk food. Ajax, I'm with ya.

Posted by: KathleenHusseininMaine | October 29, 2010 2:14 PM
.........................

KathleenHusseininMaine:

12 posts (including this one) by SolarEnergy, battleground51, and me -- out of 25 total -- that's less than 50%, and certainly not 90%. Deal with it!

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 2:38 PM |
...................

I am glad I took time to check in on Plumline. I don't know about the rest of you, but Jake's response to Kathleen's remark, has made my day.

He admits that that what he and his two Amigos have been posting is Junk.

Keep in mind, this guy claims to be a Stanford Law Grad. and a Lawyer.

Can you imagine him defending a person who has been charged with murdering 9 people?

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury; my client has been charged with murdering nine people. I submit to you that the evidence clearly proves that he has murdered only four or five of those victims. The defense rests, your honor." JakeD2, The Pride Of Stanford Law School.

Posted by: Liam-still | October 29, 2010 5:02 PM | Report abuse

Why doesn't Harry bust a Gawker "One Night Stand" story on her as well?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut
+++++++++++

Angle only has a Kochroach costume. Not as seductive as a ladybug.

Posted by: bearclaw1 | October 29, 2010 5:04 PM | Report abuse

HI Guys

I just got back from vacation

Anything good happen around here?


.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 29, 2010 5:04 PM | Report abuse

Greg:

I don't see anything wrong in attitude or answers. Try getting info out of Charlie Rangel!

Get a life son.

Posted by: dkane3 | October 29, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

Liam

Your comment misses the entire point

Jake was making the point that the Conservatives - even on a good day - have less than half the comments on this blog.


Usually the Conservatives are around 20-30% of the comments.


The liberals should not be upset about the presence of Conservative thoughts. However, it is clear that many of them would prefer to see 100% liberal thoughts.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 29, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

Game. Set. Match.

If Reid has any political acumen, we'll see a commercial showing these bomb-laden jets landing in the US and then a clip of Angle with her recent comments. He may prevail in Nevada after all.

Posted by: youba | October 29, 2010 5:11 PM | Report abuse

I'll tell you my policies once I'm Senator!!! This woman is completely insane.
And the freaks keep coming out of the woodwork.
Teatards!!

Posted by: skinswitabullet | October 29, 2010 5:16 PM | Report abuse

I'll tell you my policies once I'm Senator!!! This woman is completely insane.
And the freaks keep coming out of the woodwork.
Teatards!!

Posted by: skinswitabullet | October 29, 2010 5:16 PM | Report abuse

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2010/senate/nv/nevada_senate_angle_vs_reid-1517.html

I think it's too late for this to make a difference. Reid hasn't been at or above 50%. As much as he wants to make this race about Angle, it's about him. And that's why he's losing.

Frankly, a think Angle blowing off the press like that makes her look more senatorial. [Note that I have a very low opinion of senators]

Posted by: NoVAHockey | October 29, 2010 5:17 PM | Report abuse

meanwhile the Democrat desperation continue to come to light. Is this what a candidate with the courage of his convictions should do?

===============
Just last week, the Democratic congressional candidate in the Pennsylvania 7th, Bryan Lentz, finally admitted to the Delaware County Daily Times editorial board that without his help, independent candidate Jim Schneller would not have gotten on the ballot. In a debate this summer, Lentz denied having anything to do with Schneller’s appearing on the ballot, and in August, Schneller told PoliticsPA that the rumors that Lentz had gotten him on the ballot were simply an attempt to discredit his candidacy.

===================

How about this?
===============
New Jersey’s Courier Post ran a headline announcing that “Dems picked spoiler candidate.” With internal polls showing freshman Rep. John Adler losing to possible Republican challengers by about five points, Democrats apparently “recruited [Peter DeStefano, a picture framer from Mount Laurel] to run as a third-party candidate.”
==================

Any guesses about who is behind the candidacy of Ashjian in Nevada?
==============
Ashjian had no history of involvement in the Tea Party movement before placing his name on the ballot. As Mark Williams, the chairman of the Tea Party Express, noted in one ad, “None of us has ever heard of you.”
===========

Are the American people really served well by this kind of thing? I don't think so. If the Democrats really do believe that their record should encourage people to re elect them, then why this kind of thing?

the answer seems simple to me: politicians love power and if it takes this kind of cheating to retain power, they'll do it.

As I've stated before there are grave concerns about the health of our democracy. If our first line of defense against tyranny is the ballot box, what happens when the American people reach the conclusion that the politicians have rigged the elections to keep themselves in power?


Posted by: skipsailing28 | October 29, 2010 5:19 PM | Report abuse

Sharron Angle 49 Harry the horse's asp Reid 45

Three most recent polls, the Las Vegas Review Journal, Time/CNN and Rasmussen all in complete agreement.

Welcome, Senator Angle.


Posted by: screwjob22 | October 29, 2010 5:20 PM | Report abuse

Control of the Senate rests with West Virginia and Washington State.


There is a pattern here - both States begin with the letter W.

The Republicans just might pull this thing out - it will be very interesting.

.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 29, 2010 5:24 PM | Report abuse

Out of all the non-conformist politicians running for the Senate this cycle, Sharron Angle (ahead by 4 to 9 percentage points) has the best shot at making Senator, thus being the "representative," along with John Ensign, of the majority of Nevada voters. People out in Nevada don't like their candidates being questioned by the press unless it is Hannity, O'Reilly, and the Fox News set. When you are the newest member of the "Fox Nation of States," you don't need to speak to the local press. Nevada is now a Fox Nation. Another reason not to go to Vegas and spend your money.

Posted by: dozas | October 29, 2010 5:24 PM | Report abuse

Her reluctance to discuss the two wars stems from the fact she actually can not pronounce the word, "Afghanistan".

Posted by: BBear1 | October 29, 2010 5:26 PM | Report abuse

OT:

Oh noes! Apparently our troops hate America:

"An internal Pentagon study has found that most U.S. troops and their families don't care whether gays are allowed to serve openly and think the policy of "don't ask, don't tell" could be done away with, according to officials familiar with its findings."

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/ap_dadt_survey_shows_most_troops_dont_care_if_fell.php?ref=fpa

Posted by: bearclaw1 | October 29, 2010 5:26 PM | Report abuse

OT

Voter Intimidation At McDonald's: Employees Told That, Unless Republicans Win, They Won't Get Raises Or Benefits

The owner of a franchise in Canton, Ohio enclosed a handbill in employees' paychecks that threatened lower wages and benefits if Republicans don't win on Tuesday.

"As the election season is here we wanted you to know which candidates will help our business grow in the future," reads the letter. "As you know, the better our business does it enables us to invest in our people and our restaurants. If the right people are elected we will be able to continue with raises and benefits at or above our present levels. If others are elected, we will not. As always, who you vote for is completely your personal decision and many factors go into your decision."

The note ends with a list of candidates McDonald's believes "will help our business move forward." It names Republicans John Kasich for governor, Rob Portman for Senate, and Jim Renacci for Congress. With the letter was a biography of Renacci.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/29/voter-intimidation-mcdonalds-republican_n_776187.html

Posted by: suekzoo1 | October 29, 2010 5:28 PM | Report abuse

SaveTheRainforest:

Good to have you back! I agree that Mr. Sargent is guilty of thread-bombing (he should ban himself ; )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 5:28 PM | Report abuse

my my. the liberals are unhappy because Ms Angle won't be badgered by reporters.

I'd like a liberal stalwart to point me to evidence of their expression of outrage when Maurice Hinchey told a reporter to shttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWe2L265rwM&feature=player_embeddedhut up:

Yeah, Ms Angle is just not following the rules and the rules are clear. First among them is "do as liberals say, not as liberals do"

Posted by: skipsailing28 | October 29, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

my my. the liberals are unhappy because Ms Angle won't be badgered by reporters.

I'd like a liberal stalwart to point me to evidence of their expression of outrage when Maurice Hinchey told a reporter to shut up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWe2L265rwM&feature=player_embedded

Yeah, Ms Angle is just not following the rules and the rules are clear. First among them is "do as liberals say, not as liberals do"

Posted by: skipsailing28 | October 29, 2010 5:30 PM | Report abuse


Dino Rossi (R) now has a one-point lead over incumbent Patty Murray in the Washington senate race, 48% to 47% in a new poll released today.

In a close election people who are still undecided until the very end, the other 5% in this race, nearly always vote against the incumbent in the voting booth.

Posted by: screwjob22 | October 29, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

More on the Ohio McDonald's:

"The handbill endorses candidates who have in essence pledged to roll back the minimum wage and eviscerate the safety net that protects the most vulnerable members of our workforce," said Attorney Allen Schulman of Canton law firm Schulman Zimmerman & Associates, which received the documents from an employer who stepped forward. "But it's more than that. When a corporation like McDonald's intimidates its employees into voting a specific way, it violates both state and federal election law. It's no surprise to anyone that Ohio is a battleground state in this election, and for a multinational corporation like McDonald's to threaten employees like this is morally and legally wrong. This despicable corporate conduct is the logical extension of the Citizens United decision, which has unleashed corporate arrogance and abuse."

Schulman turned over the documents to local prosecutors, asking them to "investigate this matter for a criminal violation." Ohio election law specifically states that no corporation "shall print or authorize to be print...or post or exhibit in the establishment or anywhere in or about the establishment...handbills containing any threat, notice, or information that if any particular candidate is elected or defeated, work in the establishment will cease in whiole or in part, or other threats expressed or implied, intended to influence the political opinions or votes of...its employees."

On Friday, franchise owner Paul Siegfried apologized in a written statement, saying the communication was "an error of judgement [sic] on my part." "Please know it was never my intention to offend anyone," he added. "For those that I have offended, I sincerely apologize."

Posted by: suekzoo1 | October 29, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

Sharon , you will not be senator. Give us your answer NOW!

Posted by: wts1574 | October 29, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

wts1574:

Make sure you come back here Wednesday so we can all congratulate you : )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 5:35 PM | Report abuse


Harry the horse's asp Reid already had his chance to debate Sharron Angle. She demolished Reid. Harry is the one who is playing rope-a-dope now. In four more days Reid will be ousted from the United States Senate.

Words have their connotations Greg and use of "smugly" is stilted language consistent with your personal leftist point of view -- but it has no bearing on the election results. We shall see.

Posted by: screwjob22 | October 29, 2010 5:39 PM | Report abuse

Liberals - Be Honest. If Greg did not post negative comments about any conservative 100% of the time, you would take him to task for being a right winger. It is in his DNA and also in the DNA of many of the posters.

Posted by: sales7 | October 29, 2010 5:40 PM | Report abuse

She should just tell the truth, that she doesn't know anything about foreign policy, and let it be that. Oh wait.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 29, 2010 5:42 PM | Report abuse

You can just see her and Joe Miller and the other Teahadists banging their shoes on their lectern and refusing to participate in Democracy. Pretty much how the Bolsheviks and Nazies took over... same people who shouted down the vote count in Florida.

Posted by: angriestdogintheworld1 | October 29, 2010 5:42 PM | Report abuse

Actually the leveling of False Charge of Racism is designed to intimidate people into not exercising their Freedom of Speech.

It is just like Voter Intimidation - designed to prevent people from exercising their civil rights to vote.

So, False Charges of Racism is bullying - and it is RACIST AGAINST WHITES - because it is only used to intimidate whites into not excercising their civil rights Freedom of Speech.


Blacks are never subjected to these false charges or bullying.


The fact that the Obama people have engaged in these bullying tactics is a campaign issue this year.

The conduct of Obama and his people has been disgraceful.

The tactics of the Obama and his people are nothing less than UNAMERICAN.

We, as Americans, can not have a fully functioning Republic with these Obama bullying tactics being put in place all over the nation.

It is important to speak out against these Obama bullying tactics - and shame them into halting these practices.

The tactics of Obama calling people RACIST just to silence them, or to diminish the level of opposition to policies - is simply RACIST AGAINST WHITES. It is a campaign issue - and it should be denounced by all Americans who love our political system.

Posted by: MachSeven

-------------------

The typical whining points of the Tea Klan Bigot

Posted by: rcc_2000 | October 29, 2010 5:43 PM | Report abuse

Good for her, when there is a multitude of reporters seeking to find anything they can to TWIST or make someone look bad, then defensive measures are justified.

At this point, the liberals in the lamestream media have done so much to smear people that the candidates are right to be extremely cautious. It is an atmosphere created by the media.

Posted by: JakeD2
------

Love it how idiots cover-up their lack of knowledge by blaming the "lamestream media" for asking questions they are too stupid to answer. The Tea Klan is the uprising of the brain dead, perfect for Halloween (Angle does not even need a mask).

Posted by: rcc_2000 | October 29, 2010 5:46 PM | Report abuse

@JD2: ROTFLMAO!

The media carries water for the left in the US! That is a good one! I am sure that Nessie curls up with Elvis and Jim Morrison to read the "left wing media" on their alien spaceship. How many times does the Ailes quote about creating the "liberal media" meme to "work the refs" need to be referenced before this gets put to rest?

When a candidate won't sit for a news conference or take questions at a question and answer session or wants to ban cameras from public campaign events, that ought to automatically disqualify her from office. How can she defend america against her enemies, when she can't even face questions from a reporter?

How can she drone on about accountability in washington when she is not even accountable for what she says when campaigning?

Seriously, a candidate trying to prevent the press from covering her? Really???

It is true that Reid is a less than stellar candidate and senator, but the fact that a certifiably bat$h*t crazy, uninformed, closed minded ideologue might go to the senate shows how incredibly twisted, warped, and broken our money soaked electoral system is.

Posted by: srw3 | October 29, 2010 5:46 PM | Report abuse

Pollster.com has something interesting and new on the Reid/Angle race.

Their trend line has Angle +4 over Reid, but with "none of these" 2.4%. I believe that Nevada has "none of these" as an option, right?

The last 3 polls have Angle +4, the 3 polls before that have her +1 to +3.

This is still a close race and depending on last minute gaffes and GOTV influences.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 5:48 PM | Report abuse

If any of these Tea Party nutcakes get in, it definitely means we need voting and government information classes because they are all sinfully ignorant! ESPECIALLY Sharron Angle! She had previously said she thought reporters should give her the questions ahead of time so she could look up the answers! Sort of like Palin, who accepted running as Vice President of our country, ONE step away from the presidency, and she didn't even know THE DUTIES of our VicePresident!! Don't we learn that in about third grade?? And there is even hint that she might want to run for PRESIDENT?? What a joke! Even the Republicans aren't THAT stupid! Course she COULD be run as a Tea Party candidate!!

Posted by: Maerzie | October 29, 2010 5:53 PM | Report abuse

srw3:

I said the LAMESTREAM media (such as The Plum Line ; )

rcc_2000:

You do remember over at The Fix that YOU refused to answer my questions to you, right?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 5:53 PM | Report abuse

@ss28: the paranoia/delusional mental state is strong in this one.

The vast "liberal media" conspiracy is out to get poor wittle Sharron...

get a life.

I don't believe anyone forced her to run for senate. Answering questions from the press is a pretty standard activity for a candidate, or it used to be. Angle has turned running in fear, cowering, and avoiding answering substantive questions into an art form. Only from her perch high atop the battlements of fox nation, smack in the middle of farrightwingnutistan, can her true voice be heard(and the only place where she can shill for her campaign on the station's dime.)

Posted by: srw3 | October 29, 2010 5:55 PM | Report abuse

Alot of Fix refugees over here

HHHmmmm - too bad they couldn't figure out another way.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 29, 2010 5:57 PM | Report abuse

Maerzie:

Not just "voting and government information classes" let's bring back INTERNMENT CAMPS! You liberals won't stop until you control everyone and everything!

As for a certain Governor from Alaska not knowing THE DUTIES of our Vice President, please read some history about John Adams as PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE and then let me know what is wrong with the following explanation:

"A Vice President has a really great job because not only are they there to support the President's agenda, they're there like the team member, the teammate to the President. But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to they can really get in there with the Senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job."

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 6:00 PM | Report abuse

"...shows how incredibly twisted, warped, and broken our money soaked electoral system is."

Holla Holla! I am so with you on this one srw3.

This system is broken! It's so doggone bad that I'm not even going to vote on Tuesday.

I don't think any of ya'll should either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

nb.: How can the question be about "two wars?" We lost in Iraq in 2007. Right, Harry?

Posted by: tao9 | October 29, 2010 6:02 PM | Report abuse

12B did you get the new blocking widget? Later, now maybe we can talk about what you asked before about cost containment and what actual health care reform options might look like...without getting firebombed about Obungler's libretard racist friends or whatever the rant of the night for day might have been.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Does Obama think he can help the election prospects of the democrats by looking Presidential?

That sure was not the strategy for going on the Daily Show with Stewart.


With other terrorist incidents over the past two years - we did not see Obama rushing over to make a statement immediately - that was relatively new today - a quick statement by Obama


And also new today, you didn't see Obama trying to play down the incident.

.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 29, 2010 6:05 PM | Report abuse

One of the foundations of our democracy is an informed voter. Informed voters make decisions on the issues, not how they feel about the candidate.

Sharron Angle violates this basic premise. She apparently does not want the voters to be informed. She's too scared, or suspicious, that voters will not give her their vote if they know how she stands on the issues.

The reporter did not ask her about her haircut or her children, or personal things which she might take offense at. He asked about foreign policy. The voters have a right to know.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 6:05 PM | Report abuse

12Bar

Stop harassing and stalking people then.

Posted by: SaveTheRainforest | October 29, 2010 6:10 PM | Report abuse

SaveTheRainforest:

"Does Obama think he can help the election prospects of the democrats by looking Presidential?

That sure was not the strategy for going on the Daily Show with Stewart.


With other terrorist incidents over the past two years - we did not see Obama rushing over to make a statement immediately - that was relatively new today - a quick statement by Obama


And also new today, you didn't see Obama trying to play down the incident."

Maybe this is the new and improved Obama already?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 6:12 PM | Report abuse


Speaking of Joe Miller: Miller is running against whatsisname the Dim who is polling down under the 25% level, and Lisa Murkowski whose name is not even on the ballot. Two Republicans and some anonymous Dim.

Either way it is a GOP win, but since Murkowski is not on the ballot it looks like a Joe Miller win. Look for every ballot written Liza Murkovski, Lisa Murkofski and ever other misspelling and illegible penmanship to be thrown out -- because that is Alaskan law. They don't try to "guess what the voter meant".

Posted by: screwjob22 | October 29, 2010 6:14 PM | Report abuse

P.S. to SaveTheRainforest: hopefully, now that they have the new blocking widget -- so much for being "informed voters" -- they will FINALLY really ignore you once and for all. I just wish that I could get on the widget too ; )

P.P.S. to Maerzie:

"Governor Palin was responding to a third grader's inquiry," Maria Comella, Palin's spokeswoman, said about the response. "She was explaining in terms a third-grader could understand that the Vice-President is also President of the U.S. Senate."

Did you not graduate from the third grade?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 6:17 PM | Report abuse

OT:

shrink2, 12B,

I was just talking about containment with 54465446. My post is a bit long, so please forgive me, but here it is:

----------

54465446: "The proposed cost reduction measures will not be in place for years, but the law requires adult children to be covered today. That is what I mean by common sense."

Cmon. You know, as well as anyone, that to implement a whole slew of cost-containment measures immediately upon the passage of the bill could totally up-end the existing health care market. It is clearly a flawed system, but I believe the more common-sense approach is to not damage the economy by expecting implementation of major changes to a large portion of the economy in a brief period of time. HCR was a major change to existing policy that will have major ramifications on our economy. It makes sense to spread the impact over a period of time.

Here is an excellent overview of cost-containment measures in the bill:

http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/COST_CONTAINMENT.pdf

I was going to list the provisions, but there are 20 in total. So here are just the areas where cost-containment provisions will be implemented (apologies for the caps):

* DELIVERY SYSTEM REFORMS/MOVING TOWARD VALUE-BASED PAYMENTS

* CRACKING DOWN ON WASTE, FRAUD AND ABUSE

* CONTAINING COSTS OVER THE LONG TERM

* UTILIZING PREVENTION AND WELLNESS PROGRAMS

* PROMOTING MARKET COMPETITION

Seriously. Read the whole thing. Many of these provisions make a great deal of sense and will impact the cost of health care:

http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/COST_CONTAINMENT.pdf

And actually, now that I'm reading it, that's not even everything. That document leaves out health care IT.

Here is another description of cost-containment proposals. These may or may not be in the bill, but again you can see clearly that there is more to cost containment than just medicare reimbursement rates, as I've been arguing:

http://www.kaiseredu.org/Issue-Modules/US-Health-Care-Costs/Background-Brief.aspx#What%20are%20the%20major%20proposals%20to%20contain%20costs?

--

Just a little more food for thought.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 29, 2010 6:18 PM | Report abuse

I'm sorry, but the more shocking thing is she expects people to vote for her without her having to tell them her views or explain what "expertise" she might possess. (none, IMHO) And what the heck was that "I expect the press to get the vote out for me" nonsense?

The woman is crazy. Nevada, get a grip. Please. We're begging you.

Posted by: lcrider1 | October 29, 2010 6:20 PM | Report abuse

This one is ON topic...

An update on the topic of this thread over at TPM:

-----------

Late Update: D'oh! I guess that reporter's learned his lesson. Angle's campaign just banned his TV station from the campaign's election night event over the foreign policy question.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/angle-camp-bans-two-tv-stations-from-election-night-party----for-asking-questions.php

-----------

First she refuses to discuss the issues...

Then she BLACKLISTS two local stations for trying to interview her. Unbelievable.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 29, 2010 6:21 PM | Report abuse

Good for her, when there is a multitude of reporters seeking to find anything they can to TWIST or make someone look bad, then defensive measures are justified.

At this point, the liberals in the lamestream media have done so much to smear people that the candidates are right to be extremely cautious. It is an atmosphere created by the media.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 4:48 PM | Report abuse
**************************************************************************************
So are you willfully ignorant or just plain ignorant? We are supposed to just vote for people and wait until they are elected before they will answer any pertinent questions about their qualifications for the position and their opinions and policy stances on governing and on the issues that effect our daily lives?

Would you hire an employee who said they could do the job because the other person was not well-liked in the state and in their opinion didn't do a good job. And, that they will agree to be interviewed for the job after they are hired?

Are you telling us that we, the American people, do not have a right to know the answers to these questions before the election? What is going to be her incentive after she is elected to answer those questions or any questions? Are you then going to tell us we don't have a right to know how she is governing because the media has made it hostile for her?

Why didn't the teabaggers pick a candidate with thicker skin?

Posted by: denise4925 | October 29, 2010 6:22 PM | Report abuse

screwjob22:

Alaskan voters can take the correct spelling into the booth with them. Do you think that "Liza Murkovski" or "Lisa Murkofski" SHOULD be counted as her votes?! Did you also think that Barack Obama should have been given "affirmative action" votes in the Michigan primary even though he voluntarily took his name off the ballot?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 6:22 PM | Report abuse

@tao9: IF you call the current state of Iraq a win, you must really be an optimistic.

What does winning look like?

A shiite dominated mostly sectarian government with close ties to Iran.

A wide spread insurgency barely suppressed through bribes to the "sons of Iraq" Now that the payments are gone, and the Shiite govt is freezing them out, look for insurgent activity to blossom in the near to mid future.

A partitioned Kurdistan, functionally independent from Bagdad and pushing for more political autonomy and control of the northern oil fields.

Widespread (now mostly finished) ethnic cleansing of Bagdad and other areas so that the sunni and shiite areas are mutually exclusive.

A govt rife with corruption and suffused with radical religionists.

Millions of internally displaced persons and Millions more refugees and expats all over the middle east.

Creating a training ground for terrorist tactics

Did I miss anything?

Posted by: srw3 | October 29, 2010 6:22 PM | Report abuse

screwjob22:

Alaskan voters can take the correct spelling into the booth with them. Do you think that "Liza Murkovski" or "Lisa Murkofski" SHOULD be counted as her votes?! Did you also think that Barack Obama should have been given "affirmative action" votes in the Michigan primary even though he voluntarily took his name off the ballot?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 6:22 PM | Report abuse
**************************************************************************************
He didn't need "affirmative action" votes to become a US Senator and win the Presidency in a near landslide victory.

How very racist of you to make that statement, Jake. LOL

Posted by: denise4925 | October 29, 2010 6:25 PM | Report abuse

Angle's campaign just banned his TV station from the campaign's election night event over the foreign policy question.
-------------------------------------
This is victimhood taken to an art form. My guess is that Sharron really feels like a victim. What a dork! How can she be a U.S. Senator, have the courage to vote her conscience, when she doesn't have the courage or self confidence to face a reporter. She exudes inferiority.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 6:26 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues:

Thankfully, you are not a Nevada voter : )

denise4925:

I am not answering your questions to me either -- too bad you refused to answer my questions to you on the prior thread -- maybe you should have thought of the consequences first.

Ethan2010:

Maybe that TV Station should have thought of the consequences first. I seem to recall that you were just fine with Barack Obama refusing to go on Fox News ; )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 6:30 PM | Report abuse

All, Happy Hour Roundup posted:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/10/happy_hour_roundup_119.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | October 29, 2010 6:34 PM | Report abuse

Ethan, the question of what needs to happen in health care reform has nothing to do with what is good about a health care wish list. It has to do with what to cut, what does not happen anymore so that what has to happen has that money behind it.

Earlier skipsailing (which is a bad idea, just so you know, unless he is advocating the sailing of a skipjack, which is an excellent idea) said it was not right to juxtapose health care with foreign adventure wars nor everybody buying whatever they want. Actually, if this bill is what we want to call health reform, it will suck vast quantities of money out of other possibilities.

Strangely, Americans never think we live in a zero sum game, they still think we can have it all. I will never understand that. Does everyone live in Tony Robbins' world? Can you buy reality? Call me old fashioned, but I think Plato was right and almost everyone sees shadows of reality on the cave wall.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 6:34 PM | Report abuse

I did it! I just added another identity to the Troll Killer, and it worked.

Troll Killer downloaded 32 times and counting. Kevin, this is what it means to find a market and fill it.

Hoorah for Kevin!

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 6:38 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

I don't even know how to start a conversation about healthcare reform. Just the way my mind works, I guess I would like to start from the top down. Perhaps, with what the objectives of HCR should be.

You've thought about this a lot. Do you think that would be a useful way to have the discussion?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse

I seem to recall that you were just fine with Barack Obama refusing to go on Fox News ; )

Posted by: JakeD2
++++++++++

Unlike Sharron Angle, Barack Obama is not a coward.

Interview with Chris Wallace of Fox (during the primary campaign, not "after I'm the President") on April 27, 2008:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vYLXZEVsz0

Interview with Bill O'Reilly of Fox, Sept. 4, 2008 (during the general election campaign, not "after I'm the President") and the very first question is about National Security:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_753sLQQ8q8

Interview with Bret Baier of Fox, in the White House, March 17, 2010, about health care:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589589,00.html

Posted by: bearclaw1 | October 29, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse


Yes, Barry the inept bungler won by 7 points two years ago, back when Barry used to be popular. A respectable margin of victory but hardly a landslide. Right now Barry is polling at 44% job approval and 54% disapproval.

Joe Miller (R) on the other hand is 14 points ahead of whatisname the Dim in the Alaska Senate election. Now that is a landslide.

Marco Rubio (R) is 20 points ahead of Charlie Crist in the Florida Senate race, and 34 points ahead of whatisname the other Dim. That is a landslide.

Posted by: screwjob22 | October 29, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse

"Did I miss anything?"

Yeah, a sense of humor.

That was a pretty mild poke at Harry.

Have a Coors Light or something, ninja.


Posted by: tao9 | October 29, 2010 6:55 PM | Report abuse

bearclaw1:

Are you telling me that Barack Obama has gone on Fox News EVERY time they asked him? Sharron Angle has answered questions from that local TV station other times too. We are only discussing the times when they didn't and were so-called "cowards".

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 6:58 PM | Report abuse

screwjob22:

Sorry for the friendly fire earlier ; )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 7:01 PM | Report abuse

Every additional poll showing Sharron Angle ahead makes me want to gouge my eyes out a la Oedipus. It is just too painful to look at. The idea that this woman can treat the press, and most importantly, the voters, with such utter contempt and disdain and still win is incredibly disheartening.

All I can ask is please, if you live in Nevada, think before you vote for Sharron Angle.

Posted by: beautifullynumb | October 29, 2010 7:15 PM | Report abuse

12B lets dive in.

The way it gets paid for can not be distinguished from the outcome/priority list. You know about multivariate matrix problems. In this one, the variables are interdependent and complementary, but not coequal. But number one, the way the money flows is where health care reform has to happen. It is a commodity, if it were listed between soy and light sweet crude, the whole conversation would make more sense...to the people outside the industry. On the inside, they know.

This bill, this new American health care system uses the old way of paying for health care. But it demands much, much more health care even if we pretend they are all good programs and practices.

Many more people will be in the system, much more money will flow. More money will flow through the same system, the same companies, the players are all the same. This is happening even though the way things are is terribly inefficient.

Wasteful of money and lives, there is no question about our payment silo system. No other country has anything like the systems of payment we use.

Example, child comes to ER with cut chin needing stitches. She got it on a trampoline, her family was visiting friends. The parents are separated from the friends and the insurance information, including homeowners insurance and the stories of who saw what, who said what to whom, the whole set of circumstances before the accident, all recorded in the ER.

The parents of the child are asked if they intend to sue their friends if the cost of the care for the accident, scar revision, pain, etc., is not payed by their friends' insurance, because the hospital knows the family with the injured child's insurance company will go after the home owner, even if they don't. The hospital just wants to get paid, so they document both sides of a case.

(sorry I have to go turn off the phone, political robo calls are going on and on, it is like having the corner back)

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 7:17 PM | Report abuse

If you live in Nevada, and vote for Sharron Angle, thank you from the rest of America!

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 7:19 PM | Report abuse

beautifullynumb

If they could think ahead, they wouldn't have moved to Nevada.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 7:19 PM | Report abuse

Jake,

If you actually listen to the clip from the Nevada TV station, they indicate that the reasons they pursued her in the airport are (1) she has not been willing to answer any questions about national security and foreign policy, and (2) her website contains all of two sentences about those subjects.

Posted by: bearclaw1 | October 29, 2010 7:20 PM | Report abuse

bearclaw1:

I did listen to that clip. Here's my question to you (one last time):

"Are you telling me that Barack Obama has gone on Fox News EVERY time they asked him?"

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 7:26 PM | Report abuse

the way the money flows is where health care reform has to happen.
---------------------------------
Ok, are you saying: Reform has to happen to the system of money flow first. In other words, make the flow of money efficient and costs will decrease.

In your example of the cut chin, are you saying that there are too many sources of potential money flowing toward the provider, so the provider views all these sources as available to compensate him for services. Are you saying this is like inflation--too much money (the parents, their insurance company, their neighbors, their insurance company) pursuing too few goods?

In addition, in the provider's pursuit of payment, they spend time and money documenting all these potential money sources.

Correct me where wrong.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 7:39 PM | Report abuse

"Correct me where wrong."

Gosh, I don't think that anyone here has that many days left on earth.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 7:43 PM | Report abuse

Even if someone just turned 13 years old, and lives to be 113, that's only 36,500 days. Posting 24 hours per day (that's 876,000 total hours), I doubt that someone could correct everything you've been wrong about, even limited to just your posts from THIS year. Maybe you are asking a bit too much ; )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 7:47 PM | Report abuse

Up in Alaska, I hope that Lisa M. Lackey gets lots of write in votes for U.S. Senate!

LOL!!! I think that thgis "Troll Hunter" software is going to work out just great : )

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 7:59 PM | Report abuse

Once again, like all the teabagger bootlickers running for office, Angle wets herself in terror at the thought of reporters armed only with unflattering questions, kinda cowardly from a nutcase blithering on about "2nd Amendment remedies" for elections with results she doesn't like.

"Did I miss anything?
Posted by: srw3 | October 29, 2010 6:22 PM"

Just one thing, the US is now MUCH weaker militarily as a result of neocon policies which, while designed to prop up the US empire, are actually speeding its demise.

Posted by: kingcranky | October 29, 2010 8:00 PM | Report abuse

Hi, the silence is amazing...anyway, yes and no. This is not a problem of too many money silos available to clinical services, it is a problem of too many silos trying to make the other silo pay for services. This turns health care providers, their employers actually nowadays, into teat milking experts.

The people who diagnose and treat illness (forget prevention for now, which always sucks hind tit), they learn to work in venues where the teat milking experts are. That way, they get paid and paid. This means, health care gets bound up in a game where people who figure out how milk a money stream run with people who can code the billing systems and codes and the practice of medicine adapt in a reciprocal model, a money engine.

What happens to people who don't fit the billing model? They get shifted into the most inefficient, most ineffective care delivery system on the planet, America's emergency and tertiary systems of care (ICU, State Psychiatric, Rehab hospitals, for example). Are we still on?

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 8:01 PM | Report abuse

Jake,

I don't know. I assume "no."

Posted by: bearclaw1 | October 29, 2010 8:05 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

Ok, I think I have your exact point now. I'm more in the stock market model, so I'll be using those terms. Is this your point: Providers have learned to game the billing system to optimize their income, and have developed an expertise (coding) in milking that source.

Patients who do not present with that preferred source of payment, are relegated to second tier healthcare. Second tier healthcare is the most inefficient (i.e. costly, untimely) and ineffective (lower quality, lesser outcomes) healthcare.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 8:11 PM | Report abuse

MachSeven, AKA 37th and god knows how many other monikers you've used since you routinely get kicked out of these groups for violating the discussion board rules, please give me an example of Obama accusing whites of being racist.

I'm waiting.

Posted by: JRM2 | October 29, 2010 8:15 PM | Report abuse

bearclaw1:

Assuming arguendo that he didn't, was Barack Obama a "coward" each of those times?

Keep in ming, I'm not saying that he was; I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of those who complain about Sharron Angle not going on this local TV station.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 8:17 PM | Report abuse

Actually, as of just a minute ago, here is the only part of her issues page that remotely bear on the subject:
"National Security and Public Protection

Sharron Angle is a staunch supporter of the U.S. military, and will work tirelessly to secure the peace and security of our country.

She supports strong sanctions against rogue nations that export, support or harbor terrorism and believes that we must do whatever necessary to protect America from terrorism."

This is what passes for policy on the Armed Services:
"Active Military and Veterans

Sharron Angle strongly supports improved compensation and care for those serving in the U.S. military, as well as their families and veterans. TRICARE for the military must be protected from attacks that dilute quality of care and increase costs.

Sharron has a record of supporting the military and has received the Certificate of Appreciation from the Southern Chapter of MOAA (Military Officers Association of America)."

That she supports Tricare, where retirees actually used to have full coverage of everything medical, (Ticare is a HMO type operation and something of a cop out on full medical for retirees) suggests that even her support of retirees is lacking. Nothing in there about veterans, and nothing of substance on active duty.

Posted by: ceflynline | October 29, 2010 8:19 PM | Report abuse

Yes, this is called cost shifting. You work the stuff that pays well, you avoid the stuff that does not. But now that is a worm hole into a different universe, one of many.

Just so we are sure we got the problem with the ER kid who needs stitches who has multiple possible streams of milk, sorry, money...there is a huge infrastructure, all kinds of people hanging on to that billing code. Not just the people trying to make someone else pay, there are care managers, quality assurance mavens, you can't imagine how many people have to get paid because someone got hurt, went the ER got stitched up and left. Yes, at the bottom line, people who don't exist in other countries with much, much better health care systems.

That ER billing code with a fee basis pays for the advertising, the sales crowd, the glass edifice behind the hospital's new signage, everyone going to meetings, the throw away journal industry the list goes on and on and on.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 8:27 PM | Report abuse

shrink2:

Would you be open to the federal government setting up a SINGLE-PAYER system, with electronic record-keeping and soverign immunity -- on the express con that each State could opt-into?

JRM2:

"[My grandmother was] a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know (pause) there's a reaction in her that doesn't go away and it comes out in the wrong way."

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 8:27 PM | Report abuse

Hopefully, you did not have to wait too long.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 8:31 PM | Report abuse

con = condition

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 8:36 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

I'm going to assume that the preferred stream of money is from an insurance company. Not self pay, not Medicare, not Medicaid--but a fee for service insurance plan.

If that is true, then I think you are saying that services that get paid by insurance are gold. These are the billing codes that the entire infrastructure seeks out and hangs on.

The charges for these services are loaded with all sorts of overhead (in essence the overhead for "undercompensated" services).

Is that right?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 8:40 PM | Report abuse

So just to earmark, so to speak, another hole into a different universe. If we had an efficient, effective health care industry, what would all those parasites I mean allied-health-care-professionals do?

This is not a facetious question. The world is overstocked with unskilled people (feel good liberals, just turn away, pretend you did not read that). We don't do stuff like WWI anymore. We are going to have make-work programs for people without much productive capacity. So is it better to have them in some cubicle pretending to do something important, or on welfare?

Our health care industry makes jobs that should not exist for people who would otherwise be unemployed (unless someone has a way to make work for the hard core Dilbert cubicle crowd). That is an argument for sustaining its inefficiency and I am not kidding.

Now back to the reform question. 12B, still there?

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 8:40 PM | Report abuse

If we had an efficient, effective health care industry, we would have to fire them all.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 8:47 PM | Report abuse

I'm here.

I'm following along pretty well. When I worked in public accounting, there were certain billing codes that were golden. You wanted to lunch with people who were authorized to bill to those codes. We called it the gravy train, and a train it was. Sounds similar.

Your point is that the gravy train mentality has allowed and encouraged a surplus of useless people to be the hangers on. Since everyone gets paid, there is no incentive for get rid of the superfluous staffing.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 8:48 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

Please see my post @ 8:40.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 8:52 PM | Report abuse

Jake,

No, a Democrat who sits for several one-on-one, face-to-face interviews with a hostile (to Democrats) TV network is not a coward. (I doubt any President or major party Presidential candidate has ever agreed to every interview request.) A candidate who refuses ever to sit for such interviews, or even answer questions relevant to the campaign in person or in writing is certainly a coward. In my opinion, of course.

Posted by: bearclaw1 | October 29, 2010 8:53 PM | Report abuse

Shrink

You could be on here for hours with her, and she still wouldn't understand much

Posted by: MountainPeaks | October 29, 2010 8:53 PM | Report abuse

Ok I saw your question. "The charges for these services are loaded with all sorts of overhead (in essence the overhead for "undercompensated" services)." Yes and no, of course, always the answer.

The charges are loaded, there is no doubt about that. But the idea that the loading is for services...now that, that is The Issue.

Take home point #1. A large fraction* of the money Americans pay for health care has nothing at all to do with health care.

The industry loads your bill will stuff you did not ask for, stuff you don't want, stuff not you nor anyone else needs. Not good for you, nothing to do with your health. The whole country would get out pitchforks and torches if another industry had this power.

*proprietary data, just kidding, actually I am not, you can not know this, you just can't.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 8:56 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

But the preferred gravy train is the fee for service insurance contract, right?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Personally, I'd rather a candidate answer questions about her or his views before we are stuck with them for the next six years, not afterward. That is yet another reason why both Ms. Angle in Nevada and Ron Johnson in Wisconsin (who similarly refuses to provide any details about his policy views until after the election) should not be entrusted with the important decisions they would need to make in the U.S. Senate.

http://www.winningprogressive.org

Posted by: WinningProgressive | October 29, 2010 8:59 PM | Report abuse

Simply put, Sharron Angle is not fit for office.

Posted by: markcheslold | October 29, 2010 8:59 PM | Report abuse

I understand your point that the necessary service (stitching the head) is surrounded by skads of unnecessary, unwanted and expensive overhead (to funnel money to the hangers on).

What are the natural restraints to this loading? Why aren't there even more unnecessary overhead loaded on? Who or what is the policing action?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 9:02 PM | Report abuse

Bearclaw

Obama was clearly running from Fox News for most of 2008

He never really answered the questions relating to Rev. Wright

You are pretending that Obama wasn't dodging any press. Sharon Angle is really taking a page from Obama's playbook, and that is the truth. You won't hear it from Greg who refuses to be even-handed.

Posted by: MountainPeaks | October 29, 2010 9:07 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, Greg. There hasn't been a fourth estate in the last 12 years. You, and your kind, abdicated your role along time ago.

Reap what you have sown. Too bad the rest of us will have to go along for the ride.

Posted by: Frazil | October 29, 2010 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Ok so we have touched on America's special problems with the "good debt" system of care. Now lets talk about the people who can not or choose not to not live within the good debt system.

The most important thing to remember, there is no uncompensated heath care. Nobody rides for free, nobody lives for free, nobody dies for free, even a rotting indigent's corpse in the ditch costs the health system many thousands of dollars after death. The thing about that rotting indigent's corpse, s/he usually spent years in and out of hospitals, jails, courts, detox, ambulance rides, social workers were involved, so were medical records, quality assurance, HR...

There is no such thing as uncompensated health care. We all get paid, a lot. Health care workers are not volunteers not at any level. The health care system is going to get paid. Only people with money pay, but it all gets paid for.

Ok, that is it for now.


Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 9:11 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

Thanks for the exchange. We'll take it up again some other time.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 9:14 PM | Report abuse

if this nitwit moron angle is elected senator, i am going to move to canada and give up my citizenship. same for the other dolt christine odonnell...

is america this ignorant and stupid? are american's from nevada and delaware that uneducated and retarded to vote for either one of these woman? what has america become? stupid.. ever since we had the retarded white guy for president the united states has started to become stupid or at least started to show it...

Posted by: FranknErnest | October 29, 2010 9:17 PM | Report abuse

KEEP BASHING THEM WAPO! CAN YOU SAVE BARRY?

BARRY NEEDS YOUR HELP! THE TINGLING! THE TINGLING! OH, THE TINGLING!

IF YOU SAVE BARRY YOU'LL GET EVEN MORE STIMULUS.

IF IT'S DONALD DUCK, I VOTE AGAINST BARRY AND THE THUGS FROM CHICAGO.

Posted by: beecheery | October 29, 2010 9:19 PM | Report abuse

"Why aren't there even more unnecessary overhead loaded on? Who or what is the policing action?"

I can only laugh at this. Trust me, the smartest people are working on the first question so that the people on the end of the second question won't notice. This relationship is where a lot of health care dollars are going. The health care "reform" bill recognizes this problem and throws some serious sounding abstractions around it.


Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 9:20 PM | Report abuse

It is amusing that someone even asked a nut like Angle a national security question. She only seems focused on gutting Social Security and Medicare (like all GOP candidates), eliminating choice under all circumstances (like 77 other GOP 2010 candidates), and reviving prohibition. The only good news is that most rational Americans are finally becoming alarmed by this roster of dangerous extremists running for office.

Posted by: revbookburn | October 29, 2010 9:20 PM | Report abuse

In Nevada, Sharron Angle speaks for and channels the thoughts of her constituents. The latest poll has her 49% to 45%. Nevada deserves what it gets on 2 November. CHEERS!

Posted by: whocares666 | October 29, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

I will also note at least Senator-Elect Angle (R-NV) did not grad the reporter by the wrist and shake him, nor did she throw him to curb and stomp on his head.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 9:31 PM | Report abuse

Good for her! When she gets to Washington, she'll deal with national security. Why does some jerk of a journalist think she's obligated to tell him anything! Stupid, stupid journalists. They are such jokes!

Posted by: georges2 | October 29, 2010 9:34 PM | Report abuse

FranknErnest:

Can we hold you to that promise? If you take Ernest with you, I will personally buy you a one-way bus ticket : )

revbookburn:

You do realize that one Senator alone cannot revive prohibition, right? It's almost 10:00 PM (Eastern Daylight Savings time, and you are even going to lose another hour on Sunday). Isn't it just a bit late to "finally becom[e] alarmed by this roster of dangerous extremists running for office"? Just imagine how many mail-in ballots have already been cast.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 9:39 PM | Report abuse

BTW: that came up in the context of whether she opposes legalizing marijuana. When her spokesman, Jerry Stacy, was asked to clarify Angle's statement as it relates to outlawing alcohol, he responded that she doesn’t want to bring back Prohibition, saying “Sharron doesn’t want to make alcohol illegal,” and noting that she has never introduced legislation along those lines, and even voted against taxes on alcohol. “Alcohol is a legal substance, and adults can choose to imbibe,” Stacy said.

Nice try though.

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 9:44 PM | Report abuse

And you wonder why she doesn't want to answer questions from the lamestream media?

Posted by: JakeD2 | October 29, 2010 9:46 PM | Report abuse

Sharron Angle is a "pig in a poke." Why would you buy it.

Posted by: Frazil | October 29, 2010 9:59 PM | Report abuse

Actually, it is a very good answer. Until she becomes a senator she will not have a security clearance to enable her to be briefed on the complete situation, which would allow her to provide a more comprehensive answer. Until then she can comment only on incomplete information which is available to everyone.

Posted by: glenmayne | October 29, 2010 10:28 PM | Report abuse

12B, we are not even part of the way there, but by now, you might sense I don't think the American health care system is underfunded, it does not need more money. Sure, if is goes on like it is, it will never stop needing more money. That is what the new "reform" bill does.

Ok lets talk about bad debt health care which really is not bad debt health care. The doctors and nurses, the people who actually know the names of the people getting health care...and all the parasites, they might get paid less than if they worked with good debt clients, but there are trade offs.

So there is no bad debt health care and no one in America does not use the health care system. Many bad debt (can't/won't pay) people overuse the system as many of the whatever-they-want/get full pay people overuse the system. People who underuse the system can cost just as much as the people who overuse it (recurrent bad outcomes are really expensive).

We have not talked about insurance systems, Medicare, malpractice reform, we have not talked about any of the words, the memes and other stuff going through the debate about health care reform, only what is wrong with what we have, that is the place to start. If we agree there is no need for new money or more money because our system wastes so much money we can go forward.

I believe one part of health care reform has to be about getting the people making money from health care who have little to add, or nothing to do with it, out of the equation. Your health care dollar must never go to advertising, pianos in the lobby, skybridges, let go of the people who meet each other for a living.

Every funding silo learns it exists to protect itself. Protection costs money. Getting the money out of the silo costs money, keeping people from getting money out of the silo costs money. What is a silo? Medicaid, Medicare, your insurance plan has silos, lots and lots of them. Look at the "reform" bill, there are dozens of new silos, replete with administrative rules and that means administrative bureaucracies. There is more money (!) for more silos, more teats to milk, more of the same.


Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 10:32 PM | Report abuse

Not advocating a Chinese "barefoot doctor" system of care. But I do think health reform has to start with the relationship between people at risk for/with illness and people they trust to work with them.

There are not now any intensive, on demand, in home services. Services delivered by OT/PT/RT types, all working to make themselves unneeded.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 10:44 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

At the highest level, it makes sense to me to assume we are spending much for for healthcare than any other country spends. At least, twice as much. We probably should be spending $3-4k per capita.

It also makes sense to get the excess costs out by dumping pianos in the lobby, etc.

Does that mean dumping for profit healthcare insurance?

Does that mean dumping insurance?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 10:52 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

I'm going to have to call it a night. Let's do take this up again.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 29, 2010 11:06 PM | Report abuse

Sure. This was just the basics. You asked for it! I know what is wrong, I think I know what should be done, but I don't know how we ended up so wrong.

We spend vast quantities of money on health and our system is bad and deteriorating - so it gets more money!

We put a man on the moon and all that meme.
Why is our health care system so terrible? No one, world wide wants to study what we are doing to help their own country, not anymore.

Sure some rich people fly here to have this or that high-end procedure, but now...Americans are leaving to have stuff done elsewhere. We suck.

We are told we got health care reform but we didn't. We got much more, much much more of the same.


Posted by: shrink2 | October 29, 2010 11:16 PM | Report abuse

glenmeyer, I agree. In fact, the reporter hounding her through the airport asked several questions and even lectured her as to duties of a Senator (war powers and ratifying treaties). How can you answer that before knowing what the specifics are. We don't need more Senators who don't read things before voting on them.

"I'll answer those questions when I'm the Senator" was a perfect answer.

Posted by: clawrence12 | October 29, 2010 11:23 PM | Report abuse

That reporter couldn't be much more partisan and is one of the more juvenile jacka**es I've seen with a mic.

Apparently he is also confused about which branch of government prosecutes wars.

Posted by: quarterback1 | October 30, 2010 6:23 AM | Report abuse

Nice work, Nathan Baca.

Posted by: MaxChampion | October 30, 2010 6:46 AM | Report abuse

Heck! We've already got taxation without representation! Why not representation without information?

Posted by: cokids | October 30, 2010 8:25 AM | Report abuse

The Fourth Estate has brought us to this by ignoring real news for far too long! Ms. Angle is treating them with the respect they earned and deserve!

Posted by: cokids | October 30, 2010 8:29 AM | Report abuse

It's time for a change, A BIG CHANGE. It's time to get rid of the "welfare state" and the American citizens accept the responsibility for themselves rather than eat out of the public trough. It's time to "throw out" all of the professional politicians and put some common sense folks in for two or three terms then "GO HOME AND GET A JOB" like the rest of us. Oh, by the way the politicians can pay into social security like the rest of us, buy their own healthcare like we do, and no retirement plan while in office. As a senator said from Missouri-----idiots have taken over Wall Street----I say idiots have taken over Washington D.C. Have a great day

Posted by: phil45 | October 30, 2010 8:41 AM | Report abuse

Would you be open to the federal government setting up a SINGLE-PAYER system, with electronic record-keeping and soverign immunity -- on the express con that each State could opt-into?
Posted by: JakeD2
>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Short version answer: yes, that could be made to work.

But there would be issues across state lines that seem thorny, as in constitutional; you would know more about that than I. This wouldn't be like states having a different drinking age, these are matters of life and death and lots and lots of money changing hands. If people who drive across a bridge and set up an address, or just flop in an ER are entitled to care they couldn't get back in the other state, well you get the picture. You can't force them back across the bridge and you can't make the other state, the one they left, pay the bill for services the other state opted out of, etc.

Besides, I'm not at (my view of) the solution yet, still articulating the problem and in particular, why health "reform" is actually more of the same, much more of going the terribly wrong way has been written into law.

Earlier Ethan cited the "cost containment" measures in the bill. I've read the entire bill (I understand it to boot!); the cost containment measures are window dressing. There are some gadget plays, a few pilot projects (those always get the ax when the money crunch happens). The cost containment linguistic abstractions are a fig leaf for business as usual.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 30, 2010 10:26 AM | Report abuse

@shrink,

Just to confine the conversation to the money inflow silos, the silos include each payor--insurance companies, Medicare, Medicaid, each state's high risk pool. There are thousands of payors, each with it's own overhead. Across the group of payors, there is tremendous duplication in overhead alone.

Right?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 30, 2010 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Isn't it great when white guys, with hundreds of years of history of a white boot in the black neck, practicing rigid racism to exclude blacks from participating in white society, start screaming about racism against whites?

Posted by: bystander3 | October 30, 2010 12:23 PM | Report abuse

Hi there, just between kid events. My guys went undefeated! in swarm soccer (1st and 2nd graders) this season. Next, we are doing 2 Halloween parties today and 2 tomorrow. This is a huge kids holiday, strangely, bigger than Xmas.

But yes exactly right. If you view health care funding as a series of cylinders of all different sizes. Many, many people have jobs putting silage in through a variety of chutes on top, they all get paid in silage to do that. Many people have jobs maintaining the silo, advertising it, going to lots of meetings, each extracting silage. Also, mentioned earlier, many people work to try to find and force other silos to pay bills. Then there is a huge trough at the bottom, where people who are themselves feeding off the silage try to keep the people billing the silo from eating too much, or even getting any at all. These people are generally known as care managers. Every medical office has to hire people whose job it is to argue with these people.

This mixes the milking the teat metaphor, but if I were a writer, I'd probably be unemployed. Gotta go. But we will get through this.


This process is only one part of the way this country wastes money buing its health care.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 30, 2010 2:10 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

If you are still there:

You think the funding silos and their inherent wastefulness is the largest part of the $8k pp we spend?

If we get rid of funding silos, the first thing we have to face and absorb is that competition in healthcare does not make healthcare better or cheaper, it makes it more expensive. That is a big ideological barrier, don't you think?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 30, 2010 2:26 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

Actually, my question about the silo effect is dumb. If your silo analogy is correct, we could not effective solve any problems on the cost side without reducing, maybe even to one, the silos. The silos have a multiplicative effective on costs.

Right?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 30, 2010 2:40 PM | Report abuse

Right..and yes they turn the idea of competition into an extraordinarily expensive proposition. This is not a "free" market, it isn't even a market. The demand is fixed, the customer can not walk away, neither can the vendor. Some customers pay, some do not. All health care costs are paid either from one silo or another. Quality, outcome and price are decoupled. There are no other 'markets' organized and regulated as American health care is. It is irrational and no matter how it is tweaked at the margins (our "reform" bill talks about a lot of tweaks), it will stay this way until the silo system goes away.

Others countries have private insurers, but they are small rich countries, eg, the Swiss. All really big countries have the uninsured, but they just let them die, children, pregnant moms...no money = no health care (China, India, Indonesia, Brazil, Russia, etc.)

Since we have decided everyone in America is going to get health care when life safety is at issue (the most expensive kind of health care) whether or not they can or will pay for it, we have to face what that means.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 30, 2010 2:54 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

So the idea of competing across state lines only sets up more silos. And federal high risk pools--more silos.

This is a really profound, but simple concept, it is the plethora of funding silos that are driving the costs.

What other country has a model MOST like ours?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 30, 2010 3:01 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

Since there are lots of countries who extend healthcare to all (through various systems) and spend less than half what we do, extending healthcare to all is not the cost driver. Right? It is the combination of that with the multiple sources of funding.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 30, 2010 3:06 PM | Report abuse

I don't buy a pair of shoes without trying them on first, and I don't vote for candidates who are afraid or unwilling to answer questions.

Posted by: notfooledbydistractions1 | October 30, 2010 7:19 PM | Report abuse

notfooledbydistractions1, let's see if you are really not afraid of questions: are you are voter in Nevada?

Posted by: clawrence12 | October 30, 2010 8:24 PM | Report abuse

I actually HAVE inside information on some of the major contributors to Karl Rove's American Crossroads. I have information as to how much they donated, and more importantly WHY they donated and how at least one candidate, SHARRON ANGLE, was willing to sell her vote on a major issue to secure funding from American Crossroads....view for yourself and you tell me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgyzalpAk7I

Posted by: 21211 | October 30, 2010 9:56 PM | Report abuse

21211, it seems as if anonymous, unsubstantiated rumors are good enough for the Plum Line. Just one question: what "vote" can a non-Senator sell?

Posted by: clawrence12 | October 30, 2010 10:32 PM | Report abuse

Hard to tell who the biggest nutjob is, "Right" Angle or "Senile" Joke.

At least if bag lady Angle wins, we get six years of comedy gold. Joke is just boring.

Posted by: Observer691 | October 31, 2010 12:04 AM | Report abuse

notfooledbydistractions1, are you a voter in Nevada?

Posted by: clawrence12 | October 31, 2010 2:09 AM | Report abuse

The high risk pools, otherwise known as carve outs are a disaster unto their own. It is very hard to get into them (many bodies of those who don't pile up at the gate, not really, they pile up in ERs...and over at the incinerator of the ME morgue, our modern pauper's grave) but once you do, the money flows like wine.

What gets paid for? Why anything the industry likes to sell, the things they market create demand and demand must be supplied (its a free market). What doesn't get paid for? Low tech home and community based services that actually work. Now why wouldn't the health care industry do stuff that works? Because it does not have to. Access, efficacy, outcome...all decoupled from cash flow.

Laughable caps on profits are a feature of the reform effort. Who tells us how much it costs to deliver the health care? If people think the largest industry in America is incapable of hiding surplus revenue in its costs, I have some real estate in Nevada I'd like to sell you.

So yes, stratified case rates are silos, carve outs are silos and all silos are industries dedicated First to their own preservation, there is no second or third priority unless it serves the Prime Directive of health care silos: do no harm to our program.

Lets step back and talk about first principles. First do no harm, right? What should a health care outcomes be. Best possible: you don't need health care. Next best, you are so healthy, you need very little health care and so on. If access is adlib (on demand) The more health care an entitled population consumes, you might say the worse the system is functioning, people aren't getting better. Of course, aging of the population will increase service demands and you never want to pretend the lowered demand from denial of access to needed care means the population is healthy.

But all else held equal, the most effective health care is the health care that makes itself obsolete or unnecessary. Of course, this incentive exists nowhere in the American health care payment systems. Health care "reform" adds some whole life and or outcome based payment schemes, but this is new money for some very small new silos - which will dedicate themselves to their own preservation, first and foremost, by excluding high risk people from their risk pool, blocking access or maneuvering them into some other silo.

So we will not have reform until we get whole population, whole life payment mechanisms. Ack! We lose choice? No, people care to choose their provider, not this or that insurance company, or the way the provider gets paid. If providers all get paid the same way by the same company, then they can compete the right way, on a level playing field. On to the next topic, what should be done.


Posted by: shrink2 | October 31, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

stratified case rates are silos
------------------------
What is the defn of "stratified case rates"?
------------------------------
So we will not have reform until we get whole population, whole life payment mechanisms.
--------------------------------
What is defn of whole life payment mechanisms?

By whole population, I assume you mean "everyone has access", right?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 31, 2010 12:56 PM | Report abuse

Stratified case rates...one way payers try to stop insurance companies from cost shifting (by getting rid of high risk clients) is to pay them more to insure people who have chronic illnesses, especially if they have lots of chronic illnesses. So Tier 1 cases get the company a lot more money than Tier 2, etc.

Then the bracket creep game begins, everyone gets super sick and even more chronic (on paper), the incentive is for companies to deliver services in such a way that people who, as a result of their high cost health care, never get better and never die.

Whole life payment, called capitation, is a way to create an incentive for people to live in such a way as to avoid health care.
Scandinavian governments for example, insure every life in the country for their whole life. There is no way they can save money by having a sicker population, having bad access, inefficient delivery models and so on. The healthier people are, the less health care they need.

Now of course the knock on whole population, whole life systems is that if they are not taken seriously, are operated corruptly, or are underfunded for political purposes, everyone gets mediocre health care which costs a lot more than aforementioned Scandinavian (and Belgium and lots of other relatively affluent little countries' systems of care).

The question all comes down to how to have a decentralized (choosyfull and competitive) provider model and delivery systems (NOT the British health service, wherein everyone is a government employee in a government venue. Socialized medicine is bad, in my opinion.) with a highly centralized (as few silos as possible) payment system. This choice was obviously never considered in our recent 100% political "reform" effort.

Posted by: shrink2 | October 31, 2010 2:52 PM | Report abuse

Scandinavian governments for example, insure every life in the country for their whole life. There is no way they can save money by having a sicker population, having bad access, inefficient delivery models and so on.
-----------------------------------
Do you mean that Scandinavian governments pay someone(s) a capitated amount each year for all citizens, and that someone(s) provide healthcare for the year. The someone(s) are the "they" in your sentence?

I'm assuming there is no role for insurance companies in the scandinavian model. Right?

I agree that, under this model, there is no incentive to have sicker people or inefficiency.

But, why isn't there incentive to have bad access? People who can't access, can't use the services.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 31, 2010 3:03 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

Would you explain the Scandinavian model to me, as it seems that will be crucial in understanding the difference between it and our hybrid.

I know this slows down the discussion, but I don't want to get left behind in the dust.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 31, 2010 3:09 PM | Report abuse

In preparation for our next discussion, I just read about the four basic models per:

http://www.pnhp.org/single_payer_resources/health_care_systems_four_basic_models.php

The Beveridge Model
Bismarck Model
National Health Insurance Model
Out of Pocket Model

Do you agree with their models (for discussion' sake)?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 31, 2010 6:07 PM | Report abuse

Yes, these are the four basic models. As I said above, we need a choosier provider than the National Health Insurance Model, but we need its single silo starting point. We are part way there, last year federal health care dollars eclipsed private health care dollars in payments to providers, there is nothing to stop this trend, no power, even if there were a will or a way.

We'll end up single payer, but will we end up with a version of the national health service (the VA) or with something we like?

Posted by: shrink2 | November 3, 2010 5:07 PM | Report abuse

We'll end up single payer
-----------------------
Why will that occur?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | November 3, 2010 5:55 PM | Report abuse

wts1574 and beautifullynumb:

Congrats on Harry Reid's victory (hopefully he didn't use voter fraud to win ; )

Posted by: JakeD2 | November 4, 2010 3:53 PM | Report abuse

It is hard to get to the solution phase because every time I write something, I have get get back to articulate another set of problems.

Single payer, national health care models have the obvious advantage of less silos, but that does not solve all the problems.

One size fits all clinical models are the number one problem with single payer models. The payer only pays for what some central committee decides is good, no innovation means bad clinics can get top dollar, good clinics barely survive, unless the central committee is very, very good.

No one wants to see someone they can’t stand yet choice can not be a game, people can not use the choice idea to get to a provider who does not care whether they get better or worse and gets paid more if they don't.

At the delivery level, people must not be paid to do the wrong thing. People must be able to get rich doing the right thing. The right thing is getting people out of the health care system. Recovery is disease self-management. The moral of the story is this, the more you depend on paid caregivers, the less healthy you are.

But the people who work with people who don't get better for reasons they can't help can not be shorted because they work with people no one else wants to see.

I've been trying to avoid insurance terminology. But this gets complicated. Some diseases are so severe and permanent they do need to be carved out into a separate risk pool, but not a separate health care industry, the way things are now.

Posted by: shrink2 | November 4, 2010 11:57 PM | Report abuse

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