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Posted at 6:12 PM ET, 01/10/2011

Happy Hour Roundup

By Greg Sargent

* As Jared Loughner appears in court, Gabrielle Giffords's condition remains unchanged.

* And for Giffords at this stage, no change is good news.

* Jonathan Alter says Obama's moment of silence today worked beautifully because it's "an appropriate expression of what we need right now: Less Noise."

Also: Alter predicts Obama will addresss the shooting in his State of the Union speech.

* As Chris Cillizza notes, the Arizona shooting is unlikely to do anything to stiffen resolve for stricter gun control measures, another sign of how far off the Dem agenda it has receded.

* Or, as John Cook aptly put it:

An obviously deranged man killed six people with a legally purchased and legally carried pistol on Saturday, and the only thing we're arguing about is whether he was listening to Sarah Palin.

* Relatedly, Nathan Thornburgh asks and answers a very good question: "Why are the mentally ill still bearing arms?"

* Sam Stein has a quick and nicely-done history of the Giffords handgun clip, and asks:

"Is there a good reason to have 33 bullets loaded in a handgun?"

* Dem Rep. James Clyburn goes there, saying flatly that Loughton availed himself of a "Second Amendment remedy."

* Did John Boehner deny Tea Party chieftain Steve King a plum immigration committee slot in order to signal a new era of post-shooting restraint?

* Noam Scheiber skewers Jack Shafer's odd claim that calling for a cooling of inflammatory speech constitutes "policing" said speech.

* Relatedly, Atrios sums up the absurdity of those insisting we mustn't discuss the shooting and the political climate in the same conversation:

"When horrible tragedies occur, it is wrong to think about what might have caused them."

* Blue Dog eye-roller of the day: The Blue Dogs say they're prepared to reach a deal with Republicans on some kind of grand deficit-cutting compromise that presumably wouldn't touch the tax cuts on the rich.

* Steve Benen, responding to Darrell Issa's contention that the Obama administration is "one of the most corrupt," goes back and compares it to the actual corruption of previous adminstrations.

* And Sarah Palin responds to all the criticism by saying she hates violence and war, but she does it via an email to Glenn Beck, suggesting her political operation is still reeling and uncertain how to officially respond.

What else is happening?

By Greg Sargent  | January 10, 2011; 6:12 PM ET
Categories:  House Dems, House GOPers, Political media  
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Comments


The Lame Duck Session Sent the Gunman Over the Edge


It is pretty simple: the sense that the government was running out-of-control, against the will of the people as expressed in the November election, caused the shooting in Arizona.


The actions of the democrats gave people around the nation the sinking feeling that their votes meant little - the sense that the people were losing control of THEIR government.


The democrats were going to hijack the government NO MATTER what the voters said in November.


The shooter felt the need to strike back.


The lame duck session is what drove him over the edge. In a democracy, the government should ALWAYS act according to the will of the People. The democrats have not been doing that for two years. Only now, are the people able to muster one "check" on the democrats - in the form of control of the House of Representatives.


Let's hope the democrats restrain themselves from here on out - and they stop getting the nation angry.


The actions of the democrats over the past two years have been extremely INFLAMMATORY - AND IT IS CLEAR that the will of the people has been ignored and disrespected.


.
__________________________

FLORIDA


Today is the 150th Anniversary of Florida leaving the Union.

It would be a good time to remember there was a time when the political disputes were a whole lot bloodier than today.


Hundreds of thousands of people died that time.

So, don't think for one thing that the over-the-top rhetoric can not lead to horrible bloodshed.


Time to STOP PROVOKING PEOPLE,

Time to respect the Will of the American people


Time to stop TWISTING MANDATES


Time to stick to what you say during the Campaign.


Time to Stop trying to Impose your Agenda on other people - who are clearly not in favor of those proposals.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 6:13 PM | Report abuse

"And Sarah Palin responds to all the criticism by saying she hates violence and war, but she does it via an email to Glenn Beck, suggesting her political operation is still reeling and uncertain how to officially respond."

David Frum gave her the best advice yet:

"Here it seems to me are the elements of such an answer.

(1) Take the accusation seriously. That does not mean you accept the accusation, nor even that you explicitly acknowledge it. But understand why people – not all of them necessarily out to get you – might feel negatively about this past action in light of current events.

(2) Express real grief and sincere compassion. “My condolences are offered” is not the language of someone whose heart is much troubled.

(3) Be visible. They’re laying flowers at the congressional office of Gabrielle Giffords. Any reason you can’t join them?

(4) Join the conversation. You have often complained about out-of-bounds personal comments directed toward you (eg, David Letterman’s). Now try to show toward others the same empathy that you demand from others. Innocent as you feel yourself to be, try to imagine how it must have felt to be Giffords during this past campaign season: guns showing up at her rallies, her offices vandalized, death threats – and your map as the finishing touch. Imagine how her family must feel. Speak to them.

(5) Challenge your opponents. In the past hours, many people have cited President Obama’s (borrowed) line about bringing a knife to a gun fight. They have a point! At the same time as you publicly commit to raise your game, invite your political opponents to raise theirs. Instead of deflecting the blame, share it.

(6) Raise the issue of mental health. Remember how you were going to be an advocate for children with special needs? Can’t more be done to intervene to help potentially dangerous schizophrenics – and to protect society from the risk of violence? (Read this by Dr. Sally Satel to start your thinking on the subject. ) The best way to underscore that Loughner was not motivated by Tea Party ideology is to remind them of what did impel him.

(7) Think what you would like – not your supporters – but your opponents to say about you. “She was tough, but never a hater.” “No matter how strongly she disagreed, she was always gracious.” “I might not agree with her answer, but I could see she had thought hard about it.” Then, having thought about it, go be that person.

(8) Last: suppose you were president right now. The country would want you to say something about this terrible crime. What is that something? Say it now.

http://www.frumforum.com/what-palin-needed-to-say-after-giffords-shooting

Posted by: suekzoo1 | January 10, 2011 6:16 PM | Report abuse

RFR, still looking in vain for the other 87 keys on the victimhood piano, I see...
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 10, 2011 6:21 PM | Report abuse

"When horrible tragedies occur, it is wrong to think about what might have caused them."

Great straw man.

"An obviously deranged man killed six people with a legally purchased and legally carried pistol on Saturday, and the only thing we're arguing about is whether he was listening to Sarah Palin."

Only one party and ideology is responsible for that. It isn't conservatism and the GOP.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 6:23 PM | Report abuse

They ought to put David Frum against a wall and shoot him.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 6:28 PM | Report abuse

"* Relatedly, Atrios sums up the absurdity of those insisting we mustn't discuss the shooting and the political climate in the same conversation:
"When horrible tragedies occur, it is wrong to think about what might have caused them.""

I'm sure the same desire was expressed by Atrios, post Ft. Hood.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 6:29 PM | Report abuse

-Gateway Pundit and Breitbart Blogger Falls For Fake Facebook Profile In Attempt To Link Loughner To Obama-

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201101100010

Truly pathetic.

Let us also remember that it's not just mainstream Republican nutjobs like Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. It's also the loose affiliation of right wing bloggers whose mission in life is to destroy Barack Obama and the Democratic Party, regardless of the facts or the consequences of their comments.

There is a rabid, violent undercurrent in the Republican Party. Not just the Tea Party, the REPUBLICAN PARTY.

To ignore it is to be naive and ignorant.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 6:29 PM | Report abuse

jprestonian in your reply to your comment at 6:21 PM


When the shooter is a Muslim, Obama runs to the microphone, telling the nation not to rush to conclusions.


In this case, the Obama people ran to their computers, trying to pin blame on Sarah Palin and the Tea Party.


Extremely SHAMEFUL BEHAVIOR


SIGNIFICANT difference in Obama's actions - defending terrorists from this situation.


The nation is just about finished with the garbage from the liberals


Get it?


Do the liberals get it? Or are they going to push more people over the limit?


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 6:30 PM | Report abuse

"Let us also remember that it's not just mainstream Republican nutjobs like Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. It's also the loose affiliation of right wing bloggers whose mission in life is to destroy Barack Obama and the Democratic Party, regardless of the facts or the consequences of their comments."

What legal remedies do you suggest, my friend? :-)

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 6:33 PM | Report abuse

Everyone is saying that Obama and the democrats poisoned the political atmosphere in this country.


And yet, I don't really see the democrats backing off today.


There is still INFLAMMATORY RHETORIC coming from the democrats, including readers of this column.


Why in the world would the democrats CONTINUE TO PROVOKE PEOPLE???


The cause of this shooting can be placed at the feet of the democrats - and all the inflammatory words and deeds over the last two years.


I seriously do not believe the attitude of some of the democrats on this board.


There is blood on your keyboard. Why would you continue to provoke people?


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 6:35 PM | Report abuse

RainForestRising,
Your comments today have been extraordinary. I love your sarcasm and the irony in your writing.
I think you will have a WONDERFUL future if you focus more on how Obama is to blame for everything.
I think Bo might have some blood on his paws as well. LOL man, you are one funny s.o.b.
Keep it coming, because the rest of us love your comedy!

Posted by: savetherest | January 10, 2011 6:39 PM | Report abuse

"An obviously deranged man killed six people with a legally purchased and legally carried pistol on Saturday, and the only thing we're arguing about is whether he was listening to Sarah Palin."

Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes.

All this talk of heated rhetoric is a waste of time (nothing will change) and off-target (mental illness is the issue).

Posted by: sbj3 | January 10, 2011 6:39 PM | Report abuse

"What legal remedies do you suggest, my friend?"

I suggest what I've been saying for 2 days now.

Moderate Republicans need to stand up and condemn irresponsible and incendiary comments from the Right.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 6:39 PM | Report abuse

Obama campaigned on bipartisanship and compromise

If he didn't want to stick to his promises, he should have resigned, instead of continuing to collect a paycheck for a job that he WAS NOT ELECTED TO DO.

The American People elected Obama to do things FAR DIFFERENTLY.

ANY democrat who disputes that is a DIRTY LIAR.

The truth is that this situation has had an INFLAMMATORY effect on the nation -

The democrats on this blog are simply too immature, or are intent on attempting complete deceptions.


It is time for the democrats to KNOCK IT OFF.

This lame duck session was OUT OF BOUNDS.

Pushing health care through was OUT OF BOUNDS.


If the democrats realize that, perhaps maybe this country can start to come together. Otherwise the democrats are the ones who CONTINUE TO DIVIDE THE NATION.


Again, Obama was NOT elected to act the way he has over the past two years.


THE LIBERALS HAVE HIJACKED THE COUNTRY.


Yes, unprecedented. This has never happened in American history, ever.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Ethan

I want you to know.

At no point in HUMAN HISTORY has anyone saw fit to build a garbage machine.


So how in the world did you find one in the store????


We see you are using it everyday to post on this blog.

However, where did you get this GARBAGE MACHINE???


It is amazing. I wonder how much you paid for it.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 6:45 PM | Report abuse

What if either they refuse, or do not believe the rhetoric is "irresponsible and incendiary"?  Or, it's ineffective?  What then?
Thanks in advance.  :-)

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 6:45 PM | Report abuse

RainForestRising,
BRAVO my friend. I'm laughing my behind off. You are like the Andy Kaufmann of this board. Keep the funny coming!!!!

(i love your use of CAPS)

Posted by: savetherest | January 10, 2011 6:46 PM | Report abuse

"(mental illness is the issue)"

Close but no cigar.

Mentally ill people buying guns and ammo LEGALLY is the issue.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 6:49 PM | Report abuse

RainForestRising,
GARBAGE MACHINE!!!!
HA!!!!
I dont even know what that means, but its funny i'm sure!!!!

How much DID he pay for it? (bravo)

Posted by: savetherest | January 10, 2011 6:49 PM | Report abuse

sbj-

If mental illness is the main issue right now, in your opinion, when is it the right time to discuss overheated political rhetoric?

I would say right now, yesterday, last year, next week...

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 10, 2011 6:56 PM | Report abuse

Just wanted to note that the Sheriff that conservatives are now going after never actually pointed the finger at Republicans, Conservatives, or the Right-Wing in any way. His comments were actually partisan-neutral.

That fact doesn't get enough attention.

Just wanted to say that, and I'm off. I don't intend to participate in the comments, as this place is degenerated into a gross and sad version of what it once was. Hopefully things get better around here, or that Greg and the WaPo staff start using the ban-hammer. It's disappointing to see one of my favorite blogs turn into freakin' TIME's Swampland.

Really sad.

Posted by: TheBBQChickenMadness | January 10, 2011 6:59 PM | Report abuse

savetherest

I realize you are in the peanut gallery, but can you stop spilling your popcorn all over the place?


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 7:01 PM | Report abuse

"Blue Dog eye-roller of the day"

"Blue Dogs have already started having informal discussions with Republicans in the hope that they can help forge bipartisan deals like they did between President Bill Clinton and the GOP after the 1994 Republican takeover."

Goodbye, Social Security.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 7:03 PM | Report abuse

RainForestRising,
Peanut Gallery! LOL!!!!
Keep 'em coming!!!!

More More MORE!!!!

Posted by: savetherest | January 10, 2011 7:04 PM | Report abuse

@politico:

-Jim Talent (R-MO) May Not Run in 2012, Doesn't Want to be "Forced to Take Positions Outside the Mainstream"-

It's not that he doesn't believe he couldn't best Steelman in a primary -- it's whether taking up a bruising intra-party fight before a rough-and-tumble general election with Sen. Claire McCaskill would be worth the time, energy and resources.

"The primary bothers him. He saw how broke and battered [Kenny] Hulshof was in August and he doesn't want to be forced to take positions out of the mainstream," said another Missouri source who has had conversations with those close to Talent.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/davidcatanese/0111/Talent_no_longer_a_sure_bet_for_Senate_race.html

Want more evidence that the environment created by the Republican Tea Party is toxic? Here it is. Here we have a moderate Republican who is too scared to run, lest he be "FORCED" by the Tea Party to take positions "AGAINST THE MAINSTREAM" in America.

I don't know what's worse, the Tea Party or Jim Talent's cowardice.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 7:06 PM | Report abuse

wbgonne


NO ONE is going to take your social security away.

That is a deceptive lie -


SCARE TACTICS


What is wrong with you- TRYING TO SCARE SENIORS INTO VOTING FOR YOU


Is that the moral way to approach politics?

YOU HAVE NO SHAME.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 7:07 PM | Report abuse

"If mental illness is the main issue right now, in your opinion, when is it the right time to discuss overheated political rhetoric?"

Let me take a crack at that. Whenever the right time is, it definitely is not in the wake of a mass shooting in the context of one's side's hysterical accusations that the other is responsible.

Because those accusations are themselves among the worst and most inflammatory rhetoric.

I've heard nothing today from the Sheriff of Nuttingham. I wonder if the FBI has him locked in an isolation chamber somewhere. I certainly hope so.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 7:10 PM | Report abuse

RainForestRising,
I bet he is getting paid by OBAMA!!!!
I know my check MUST BE in the mail!!!

LOL!!!!!

Posted by: savetherest | January 10, 2011 7:10 PM | Report abuse

Ethan

What is worse is your garbage machine

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 7:12 PM | Report abuse

"Just wanted to say that, and I'm off. I don't intend to participate in the comments, as this place is degenerated into a gross and sad version of what it once was. Hopefully things get better around here, or that Greg and the WaPo staff start using the ban-hammer. It's disappointing to see one of my favorite blogs turn into freakin' TIME's Swampland."

In all sincerity, when was this place special, and what were the reasons it was special.

Much appreciated!

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 7:12 PM | Report abuse

TheBBQChickenMadness


I suppose that if you can't spew out your anti-right HATE SPEECH all the time,

AND find ten people here who will only agree with you -


AND you won't see any opposing views....

I suppose if you can't have that, you will leave.


Bernie said he would leave too. We are still waiting for that to happen.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 7:17 PM | Report abuse

"I don't know what's worse, the Tea Party or Jim Talent's cowardice."

Well, we both agree he's a coward!  It's a start. ;/)

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 7:17 PM | Report abuse

@chuck: "If mental illness is the main issue right now, in your opinion, when is it the right time to discuss overheated political rhetoric?"

I shouldn't tell you what to discuss or when. I would agree with the professor that by harping on this one aspect, the left appears to be essentially seizing on a tragedy to try to score political points. I'm sorry if my saying that hurts feelings and I acknowledge that those on the left disagree. But that's what it looks like to me. There is no evidence (yet?) that heated rhetoric had anything to do with this incident.

Ultimately - when all the current furor dies down, what message should we take from this? Should we be thinking about "toning down rhetoric" or should we be discussing mental illness/gun control? I know what I think...

Posted by: sbj3 | January 10, 2011 7:18 PM | Report abuse

"Just wanted to note that the Sheriff that conservatives are now going after never actually pointed the finger at Republicans, Conservatives, or the Right-Wing in any way. His comments were actually partisan-neutral."

Are you serious? He's a partisan Democrat. Everyone knows that. Six months ago he was refusing to enforce 170 and calling it racist. He called Arizona the Mecca of bigotry and prejudice on Saturday. He referred to talk radio and cable news. In his polemic yesterday he said one party is trying to block the other from making this a better country.

Doesn't that sound familiar?

He admitted it is pure speculation that politics had anything to do with the killings, and he was aware of no facts at all supporting his speculation. Given that, why was he speculating other than for political opportunism? You don't seriously think it had anything to do with his duties as Sheriff? Do you?

And if it wasn't partisan, why didn't he say that? Even if it was an insincere statement of nonpartisanship, why didn't he?

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 7:20 PM | Report abuse

Here's my frustration: with whom can we actually discuss how the political climate contributed to this tragedy? Liberals can talk to liberals or maybe even moderate Democrat. Perhaps a liberal could talk to a moderate Republican but apparently not in the press unless the Republican can remain anonymous.

I've noticed that the people calling for civil discourse are the people who tend to be civil in the first place. The people who at least get close to the line of good taste, if not over, tend to respond more with defensiveness than anything. This leaves us right back where we started. I don't think much has changed.

I was pleased to see that Rupert Murdoch wants FOX News to tone down a bit; that gives me a ray of hope.

The reaction to this event I've seen in the press and from politicians is entirely predictable.

There must be a better way.

Posted by: matt_ahrens | January 10, 2011 7:20 PM | Report abuse

quarterback1, Sheriff Dupnik spoke with ABC News and specifically named "people like Rush Limbaugh":

http://realclearpolitcs.com/2011/01/10/az_sheriff_rush_limbaugh_irresponsible_rhetoric_brings_violence_against_elected_officials.html

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 7:28 PM | Report abuse

And, before anyone gets "outraged" about my David Frum post, ask yourself if you were similarly outraged when a DEMOCRAT said the same thing about a Republican?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/ex-rep-paul-kanjorski-d-pa-fla-gov-rick-scott-they-ought-put-him

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 7:32 PM | Report abuse

OK, let's get RainForestRising's theory straight. The Lame Duck Session approved extensions of the Bush tax cuts, an end to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", a nuclear arms treaty with Russia, and they tried, but failed to give children of illegal immigrants a path to American citizenship. All told, this is what caused Loughner to shoot people.

Great. I feel so enlightened now. Thanks.

Posted by: dko63 | January 10, 2011 7:37 PM | Report abuse

Sheriff Dupnik


First of all, going through life with a name that sounds like "duped" has to take its toll.


Clearly, this Sheriff lacks all self-awareness - and is not fit for office.


Is this office ACTUALLY conducting a criminal investigation??? If so, this media SMEAR CAMPAIGN is highly irregular, and outside his proper role of law enforcement.

I do not know the actual Arizona law on this issue, however, I don't believe these statements are proper at all.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 7:38 PM | Report abuse

"An obviously deranged man killed six people with a legally purchased and legally carried pistol on Saturday, and the only thing we're arguing about is whether he was listening to Sarah Palin."

Only one party and ideology is responsible for that. It isn't conservatism and the GOP.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 6:23 PM | Report abuse

The NRA and their republican lackeys are the chief reason any nutcase can get an automatic weapon. what planet are you on?


"
They ought to put David Frum against a wall and shoot him."

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 6:28 PM | Report abuse


Just wondering, Greg -- why does the WaPo allow this violent rightwing eliminationist nutcase to post his incitements to assasination?

Posted by: fiona5 | January 10, 2011 7:39 PM | Report abuse

"The NRA and their republican lackeys are the chief reason any nutcase can get an automatic weapon. what planet are you on?"

You should try reading for better comprehension.

Btw, learn what an automatic weapon is. You like 90% of liberals are ignorant.

Lastly, I'm on Earth, a planet on the other side of the galaxy from yours.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 7:43 PM | Report abuse

fiona5, did you read this?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/ex-rep-paul-kanjorski-d-pa-fla-gov-rick-scott-they-ought-put-him

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 7:43 PM | Report abuse

"OK, let's get RainForestRising's theory straight. "

Just block him like everyone else does. He's mentally ill, probably institutionalized or maybe a drug addict, he does actually NOTHING but post on this blog, he probably wears nothing but diapers. Don't bore yourself with his droolings.

Posted by: fiona5 | January 10, 2011 7:44 PM | Report abuse

dko63 | January 10, 2011 7:37 PM


Glad to hear that you now understand that pushing through the liberal agenda - after the country tells the democrats that they DO NOT want the liberal agenda - can give certain people the sense that the People have LOST CONTROL OVER THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.


And this person reacted.


The key is to UNDERSTAND that our Representatives are in Washington to REPRESENT THE PEOPLE, not to represent a liberal agenda.


The People are the key.


The democrats have lost a string of elections - New Jersey, Virginia, Massachusetts, the House of Representatives - all the American People STATING CLEARLY they do not want the liberal agenda.


Got it?


How can one make you understand without the arrogance and attitude problems that most mentally deranged people show???

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 7:46 PM | Report abuse

If this freak is crazy, and his motivation is his own insanity, then is there any evidence that the current "rhetorical climate" is in any way harmful?  Other than, say, aesthetically?  

Just curious,  and I'm in the "not related" camp, if that helps.

Thanks in advance!

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 7:48 PM | Report abuse


-- July 2008: A gunman named Jim David Adkisson, agitated at how "liberals" are "destroying America," walks into a Unitarian Church and opens fire, killing two churchgoers and wounding four others.

-- October 2008: Two neo-Nazis are arrested in Tennessee in a plot to murder dozens of African-Americans, culminating in the assassination of President Obama.

-- December 2008: A pair of "Patriot" movement radicals -- the father-son team of Bruce and Joshua Turnidge, who wanted "to attack the political infrastructure" -- threaten a bank in Woodburn, Oregon, with a bomb in the hopes of extorting money that would end their financial difficulties, for which they blamed the government. Instead, the bomb goes off and kills two police officers. The men eventually are convicted and sentenced to death for the crime.

-- December 2008: In Belfast, Maine, police discover the makings of a nuclear "dirty bomb" in the basement of a white supremacist shot dead by his wife. The man, who was independently wealthy, reportedly was agitated about the election of President Obama and was crafting a plan to set off the bomb.

-- January 2009: A white supremacist named Keith Luke embarks on a killing rampage in Brockton, Mass., raping and wounding a black woman and killing her sister, then killing a homeless man before being captured by police as he is en route to a Jewish community center.

-- February 2009: A Marine named Kody Brittingham is arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate President Obama. Brittingham also collected white-supremacist material.

-- April 2009: A white supremacist named Richard Poplawski opens fire on three Pittsburgh police officers who come to his house on a domestic-violence call and kills all three, because he believed President Obama intended to take away the guns of white citizens like himself. Poplawski is currently awaiting trial.

-- April 2009: Another gunman in Okaloosa County, Florida, similarly fearful of Obama's purported gun-grabbing plans, kills two deputies when they come to arrest him in a domestic-violence matter, then is killed himself in a shootout with police.

-- May 2009: A "sovereign citizen" named Scott Roeder walks into a church in Wichita, Kansas, and assassinates abortion provider Dr. George Tiller.

-- June 2009: A Holocaust denier and right-wing tax protester named James Von Brunn opens fire at the Holocaust Museum, killing a security guard.

-- February 2010: An angry tax protester named Joseph Ray Stack flies an airplane into the building housing IRS offices in Austin, Texas. (Media are reluctant to label this one "domestic terrorism" too.)

-- March 2010: Seven militiamen from the Hutaree Militia in Michigan and Ohio are arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate local police officers with the intent of sparking a new civil war.

-- March 2010: An anti-government extremist named John Patrick Bedell walks into the Pentagon and opens fire, wounding two officers before he is himself shot dead.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 10, 2011 7:54 PM | Report abuse

Yay Monday is over, first beer is tasty, wife is warm and comment above reminded of Sgt Hulka's orders...

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 7:54 PM | Report abuse

RFR: "Do the liberals get it? Or are they going to push more people over the limit?"

Yes. You're going to have to shoot us all, apparently, since you can't distinguish the POTUS from people commenting on blogs. Yes, that's perfectly reasonable and sane.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 10, 2011 7:55 PM | Report abuse

-- May 2010: A "sovereign citizen" from Georgia is arrested in Tennessee and charged with plotting the violent takeover of a local county courthouse.

-- May 2010: A still-unidentified white man walks into a Jacksonville, Fla., mosque and sets it afire, simultaneously setting off a pipe bomb.

-- May 2010: Two "sovereign citizens" named Jerry and Joe Kane gun down two police officers who pull them over for a traffic violation, and then wound two more officers in a shootout in which both of them are eventually killed.

-- July 2010: An agitated right-winger and convict named Byron Williams loads up on weapons and drives to the Bay Area intent on attacking the offices of the Tides Foundation and the ACLU, but is intercepted by state patrolmen and engages them in a shootout and armed standoff in which two officers and Williams are wounded.

-- September 2010: A Concord, N.C., man is arrested and charged with plotting to blow up a North Carolina abortion clinic. The man, 26-year--old Justin Carl Moose, referred to himself as the "Christian counterpart to (Osama) bin Laden” in a taped undercover meeting with a federal informant.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 10, 2011 7:56 PM | Report abuse

Hi Bernie!

Thanks for responding.  If you don't mind, ill give my response in a little while. I have some work left to do. :-(

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 8:02 PM | Report abuse

RainForestRising: The only piece of the so-called Liberal Agenda that passed during the lame duck session was the end of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And polls show that a big majority of Americans supported this change - including a majority of Republicans. The rest of what passed was hardly a cause for big celebration among liberals. But you're not going to let the facts get in the way of an exciting theory, right?

Posted by: dko63 | January 10, 2011 8:08 PM | Report abuse

Q.B. "You like 90% of liberals are ignorant."

Just curious what is your take on the % of conservatives who are ignorant. Personally I have no idea as I have seen no statistics on either group and so I'll have to take your word on the liberals and wait for you answer to learn about the conservatives.

@Clawrence....How ironic. I've just returned for a few days and I was just about to send you a post complementing you on what seemed to be an improved job of posting from when you first joined us from the Fix, I was going to commiserate with you over the end of your heroine's political future...then you have to go and muck it all up for me with...

They ought to put David Frum against a wall and shoot him.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 6:28 PM

WOW!!!! That is just amazing in the context of what has just happened. I accept that you are probably ? not serious but that is such a bad metaphor just erase it with a quick statement of ooops and we'll let it go...but this is exactly what we are talking about.

In response to your admonition of not going crazy over your comment because of all the similar comments from the left...
I haven't read any of these comments from the left...I have read that Cao allegedly said all conservatives should be gassed.
While I agree with Cao's substance...I grant you that if he said that he was WRONG. Just as you are WRONG Clawrence.

Ironically your heroine is finished for the same reason she was first elevated into the spotlight...simple fate..luck whatever. Just as she didn't deserve to be on a NATIONAL ticket of EITHER party after two years as Governor of most sparsely populated state in our nation and a spell as Mayor of a small town of 14,000.
As Reagan speechwriter Peggy Noonan called Palin's nomination.."It's political BS" her REAL feelings picked up when she didn't realize the mike was still hot.
There are probably 10 million conservatives who are far far brighter and far far more emotionally suited for leadership. Palin was a political stunt pulled by desperate campaign managers..she was NOT MCCAINS CHOICE..in the hopes that a woman on the ticket would help the R's capture the PUMA's, the dissatisfied Clinton supporters. It failed miserably and McCain/Palin were ROUTED in one of the largest wins in the past two decades.

But fate or luck has also brought an end to Palin's career. Ironically I agree with all my righty friends that Palin is no more responsible for the shooting than thousands of others who have played on the public's fear. But Clawrence the video of Cong. Giffords which has now aired everywhere being so prophetic when she griped about her office being vandalized multiple times and pointed out that Palin shouldn't have used rifle crosshairs in this environment. People are going to remember that touching video of the LIKEABLE Giffords and compare that to the harpy Palin. She is toast Clawrence...fairly or not.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 8:09 PM | Report abuse

Bernie,

Incidents on your two posts -- 18
Population of the United States -- 300Million

Corellation to Fox News -- Zero
Corellation to the TeaParty -- Zero
Corellation to Talk Radio -- Zero
Corellation to Gov. Palin -- Zero
corellation to NRA -- Zero
Corellation to political "tone" -- Zero
Corellation to Tuscon -- Zero

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 8:17 PM | Report abuse

Correlation to tao's typos -- 100%
shoulda used connexion

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 8:21 PM | Report abuse

We will see which heroine (vs. hero) is finished in 2012!

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 8:22 PM | Report abuse

Bernie, this is awesome. I assume you are going to list all the shootings, murders, and attempts in American history? What I've never understood is how there were crimes before 2008, when the right wing went crazy. Hopefully, you'll explain.

Ruk,

I don't know how many conservatives are ignorant of the difference between auto and semiauto. In my experience, 100% of liberals are, based on their 100% record in describing the latter as the former. It must be in their talking points that way.

As a vet, I know you know the difference. Maybe you could educate your brethren.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 8:27 PM | Report abuse

RU,

I don't give a squint about Palin.

This is about marginalizing and shutting up the people who are the most threatening to the Pelosi/Obama left: The indies, conservatives, and TeaParty members who unseated, via ballotbox dammit, the Dem House last Nov..

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 8:29 PM | Report abuse

@Troll and others frustrated that Palin has been singled out...claims that this was caused by the heated rhetoric...

I think where we are losing you Troll...and obviously I can't speak for all the progressives here...many far more articulate than me...but I believe our point is not that Palin or even the toxic environment caused THIS shooting. Yes the guy was a wack job. But again this shooting did not occur in a vacuum. There are at least a half dozen shootings in the past year that were documented as having their roots in either Beck/Goldberg or some other righty personality.

How many R Congressional offices have been vandalized in the past two years. How many Dems....aaahh but I don't even want to go down this equivalency competition anymore.

Can't we all just agree that a little more civility will help...if not eliminate wack job shooters...at least the rest of us might enjoy some peace. Quite frankly that is why I took the break from this blog. I found myself getting too worked about by all the hatred and vitriol. I dislike making New Years resolutions...I find them a bit artificial...I set goals for myself at any time of the year...but this year I hope to lower my own rhetoric and bombast...to not be drawn into name calling and hyperbole.

Think I can make it to next week Troll? :-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 8:29 PM | Report abuse

RainForestRising,
Duped!!!!! YES!!!!!

BRING THE FUNNY!!!!! (btw Rain (hope you dont mind that I call you that) i am using the CAPS much more now!!!!)

LOL RainForestRising LOL!!!!

Posted by: savetherest | January 10, 2011 8:32 PM | Report abuse

RU,

"...that were documented as having their roots in either Beck/Goldberg or some other righty personality."

{{{BTW: Who's Goldberg?}}}

I gotta say "documented" and "roots" are throws home from deep, deep left field.

It's a libel, and a cynical and contemptibly tenuous one at that.

It reminds me of "penumbras" and "enamations."


Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 8:36 PM | Report abuse

"emanations" {{{damn!}}}

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 8:38 PM | Report abuse

Time for the color, drama and pageantry of N-C-Double-A Football!

Goooooo Tigers!

CU@the1/2

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

@swinkler: "those who suggest that rhetoric caused the shooting then we can talk about civility"

Nobody is saying that.

NOBODY.

Come prepared with facts or take your bs propaganda somewhere else.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011
========================================

Really?

---

And mentally ill people with guns who are radicalized by a 24/7 Right Wing Hate Machine will kill Democratic politicians. It just happened.

Posted by wbgonne | January 9,2011

---

ethan2010:
"QBs comments are part and parcel to the Republican psychosis that led to this assassination incident. Attack anyone who dares tell it like it is, attack anyone who disagrees. Attack attack attack."

---

cao:
"And two Republicans, one a US Senate nominee in Nevada and the other a former governor and not much of anything politically but a rabble-rouser, spoke and wrote openly of "targeting" and "taking out" Democrats in language that would have to be wildly embellished and contrived in interpretation to take as anything but calls to murder.

And one of the people whose assassination was encouraged took a bullet yesterday."

---

fiona5:
"Here is your tea party poster child, that you are defending, a cold-blooded murderer..."

"That's what p*sses me off the most---the utter hypocrisy of those who wanted this to happen---or at the very least, created an environment where this was bound to happen___now claiming to be sorry and to offer support to the friends and family of the dead."

---

wbgonne:
"think seome people are missing something. Yes, the assassin was nuts. By definition we can say that. But what he did may still have been catalyzed or precipitated by Right Wing hate rhetoric. The two are not mutually exclusive."

---

cao:
"yeah we get this every time a right winger acts out right wing rhetoric ...
The fact that righties have been flirting with assassination rhetoric for two years, pshaw, coincidence."

========================================

Care to revise and extend, Ethan? It sounds like you, wbgonne, and Big Goonie from Vietnam are about one jolt of crack away from climbing up on a roof with a rifle.

What was really rich was when wbgonne wrote, "It simply illustrates again how pernicious the Right Wing antigovernment rhetoric is."

This despite the fact that most news sources report that the guy was a 9/11 truther and worried about social elites controlling the world. Sounds a lot more like caothien9 than any Republican I've ever met.

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 8:46 PM | Report abuse

@tao Generally I find your posts humorous, cryptic, and on point. I'm afraid tonight I can see this whole affair has upset you. Your post doesn't really look like something you write. I've never felt such anger between your lines. You usually are calmer and the voice of reason.

"This is about marginalizing and shutting up the people who are the most threatening to the Pelosi/Obama left: The indies, conservatives, and TeaParty members who unseated, via ballotbox dammit, the Dem House last Nov.."

Might I take issue with your characterization. Nobody wants to marginalize ANYBODY's views on policy.
This is NOT an argument about substance.
It is about style. Is it not possible to discuss issues without coming armed to political rallies carrying signs that are literally treasonous..by DEFINITION. Aside from legal definition people who threaten our government with violent overthrow are called traitors. This is not me calling righties a bunch of names.
This is the accurate definition of that small group of extremists in the R party and T party that are guilty of this treason and traitorous behavior.

I do not believe myself to be mentally ill, although I'm sure Q.B. and others here would love to differ...as a reasonably sane person when I see someone calling my President a socialist and even more vile names...when I see someone in my nation's Capitol marching with a sign that says we came unarmed...this time...when I hear all these EXPLICIT threats against my country...can you guess my reaction...yeah I get really really peoed and think well I've got a shotgun too dudes in the words of your former fearless leader...bring it on. Thankfully I'm now 63...the testosterone quickly subsides and I realize I do have an intellect and why lower myself to their level.

Again...I don't believe anybody is trying to silence the tparty or anybody elses views on issues...we disagree but this is not about substance....it's totally about style.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 8:46 PM | Report abuse

There were at least six (6) R Congressional offices have been vandalized in the past two years. How many Democrats besides Rep. Giffords?

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 8:47 PM | Report abuse

Just block him like everyone else does. He's mentally ill, probably institutionalized or maybe a drug addict, he does actually NOTHING but post on this blog, he probably wears nothing but diapers. Don't bore yourself with his droolings.

Posted by: fiona5 | January 10, 2011 7:44 PM
-----

LOL. Pot, meet kettle.

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 8:52 PM | Report abuse

tao,

I dunno, I think you almost hit on the right coinage there -- "enemations from penumbras." That seems about right.

(Never could figure out how a penumbra could emanate.)

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 8:54 PM | Report abuse

I think Barry is an idiot and I don't agree with anything he says...

I'm not making excuses for Barry. The guy is an idiot.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10,2011

---

Welcome aboard. That's what some of us have been saying ever since he was elected President.

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 8:57 PM | Report abuse

@tao :-) I'll concede to your objection over the words "root". Better stated that these folks were in the "mix" of what drove these shooters.

As for documented I've got to stand by that one. I was simply stating that it's not an opinion that these guys said they were influenced by Beck and Goldberg...they are on the record as saying this to investigators or in the case of the Bernard Goldberg incident the shooter had Goldberg's book.

"Adkisson, a former private in the United States Army from 1974 to 1977, says that he was motivated by hatred of Democrats, liberals, African Americans and homosexuals.[2][9][10] According to a sworn affidavit by one of the officers who interviewed Adkisson on July 27, 2008:[3]
In his manifesto, Adkisson also included the Democratic members of the House and Senate,[12] and the 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America [12] of Bernard Goldberg in his list of wished-for targets."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 9:02 PM | Report abuse

As Briggie seems to have abandoned the field, I'll note that the Comptroller's report has Texas with a $27 BILLION deficit for the upcoming biannual budget. So much for the canard that only liberal states have fiscal problems.

BB

Posted by FairlingtonBlade | January 10,2011

---

This was from the Morning Plum. Sorry old boy, but I haven't the slightest idea why you're directing this comment to me. It's always helpful if you supply the statement to which you're responding. One of us has evidently been staying up late and hitting the sauce a little too much.

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 9:03 PM | Report abuse

Something's wrong in California. USA Today reports that ten of California's 12 largest cities rank in the bottom half of US cities for literacy. The bottom ten on the list included five cities from California.

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 9:09 PM | Report abuse

"Conservatives and tea party activists have reacted with rage to what they view as accusations from the left that they are somehow responsible for this weekend’s massacre in Arizona that targeted Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ). In reality, progressives are not trying to assign blame or argue that shooter Jared Lee Loughner — who seems to possess no coherent political ideology at all — is a member of any popular political movment, but rather to point out that words have consequences. Political and pundit leaders need to be aware that their words will reach the “serious and delirious alike” and that their rhetoric should not serve to inflame ignorance.

Conservatives like Fox News contributor Michelle Malkin have tried to muddy the waters by claiming that the left has employed violent rhetoric as well. While this may be true for rank-and-file activists on both sides, there is no question something much more disturbing has happened on the right over the past two years, with conservative leaders — including sitting lawmakers and leading political candidates — employing violent rhetoric to an alarming degree. While there is no evidence to suggest that this conservative rhetoric directly influenced Loughner, the incident should nonetheless serve as moment for all leaders to be mindful of the potential consequences of their words.

Some conservatives understand this. An unnamed “senior Republican senator” told Politico yesterday that “there is a need for some reflection here — what is too far now?” And on MSNBC this morning, former GOP congressman Joe Scarbrough and conservative stalwart Pat Buchanan agreed that right-wing firebrands like former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) should “apologize” for their violent rhetoric — not to assume any culpability for the tragedy, but to simply acknowledge that “they’ve been irresponsible in their rhetoric”:

SCARBOROUGH: So Pat, is this not a time for people, like Sarah Palin, who have used violent imagery – she just has. I know some of my conservative friends and family members won’t like that reality. Or, Michele Bachmann, who said she wants Minnesotans armed and dangerous. Isn’t this an opportune time for them to apologize -– not saying that it led to anything — but just saying that they’ve been irresponsible in their rhetoric and they’re going to be more careful moving forward? […]

I am just saying though, I mean, God, you’ve worked for two presidents. Would you not be in there if you were working for Sarah Palin right now, saying, go out and say it had nothing to do with this shooting, but you understand that it was irresponsible, and you’re going to be more careful moving forward. Wouldn’t you give her that advice if you were her aide?

PAT: Well, I certainly would. I would give everybody the advice to tone down the rhetoric and get away from military and the armed metaphors and things that a lot of us have used in campaigns, especially at a time like this. "

Posted by: fiona5 | January 10, 2011 9:13 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues,
Note the picture of the shooter here on WAPO. Is that the spitting image of cao?

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 9:16 PM | Report abuse

"In reality, progressives are not trying to assign blame or argue that shooter Jared Lee Loughner — who seems to possess no coherent political ideology at all — is a member of any popular political movment, but rather to point out that words have consequences."

Oh, that clears that right up. e/r

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Catching up after being mostly offline today, what new knowledge have we been blessed with:

Shooter mugshot looks like Uncle Fester - this works well with Hillbuzz.org nickname for the sheriff "Grampa Munster"

Shooter registered as an Independent a few years ago but didn't vote.
OK, giving up on the electoral process is perhaps one step along his crazy-train journey.

Shooter also made death threats against others in Pima Co.
Need more details/leaks to determine if authorities we negligent in handling him.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 9:28 PM | Report abuse

sbj-

Sorry that you mistook my question as me somehow "telling you what to talk about and when" 'cause it certainly wasn't meant that way.
And, if you don't want to discuss overheated rhetoric, no one is forcing you to respond to me or any other post that deals with it.

Personally, I hope you do on occaision discuss it because I enjoy your contributions.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 10, 2011 9:30 PM | Report abuse

"In his manifesto, Adkisson also included the Democratic members of the House and Senate,[12] and the 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America [12] of Bernard Goldberg in his list of wished-for targets."

Amazing. Good thing no liberals ever list Worst Persons in the World or anything like that. Good thing no Democrat Presidents ever personally attack conservative figures.

Be sure in your listings that you and Bernie cover the many class warriors who've shot up (or tried) their work places in the perfect acting out of left-wing anticorporatist rhetoric.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 9:30 PM | Report abuse

"While this may be true for rank-and-file activists on both sides, there is no question something much more disturbing has happened on the right over the past two years"

Not to be overly cynical, but I'm pretty sure the much more disturbing thing happened in November.

And things have to change now, to make sure nothing like that ever happens again.

@ruk: What browser did you say you wee using?

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 9:44 PM | Report abuse

"Posted by: clawrence12

They ought to put David Frum against a wall and shoot him.

January 10, 2011 6:28 PM | Report abuse "

Really? Or is this just that figure of speech stuff you said Sarah Palin meant with the cross hairs?

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 9:53 PM | Report abuse

@Kevin I mainly use firefox although both home and work also obviously have I.E.

After seeing that we are still infected with trolls...I have to confess to a smile however when RFR created yet another sock puppet to praise himself and banter comedically...LMAO gotta give him one there.

Anyway one smile is not enough I'm ready for your fix. I didn't realize another poster who in this new spirit of niceness I shall not name had returned.

Anyway I hope your fix is not too demanding. LOL I'm probably in the 90% of Q.B. mythological group of liberals who are ignorant. :-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 9:53 PM | Report abuse

Oh how nice. Fred Phelps and his wacky church members are going to picket the 9-year-old's funeral. Lovely.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/arizona-to-take-on-westboro-baptist-church-in-wake-of-shootings.php?ref=fpblg

Posted by: suekzoo1 | January 10, 2011 9:54 PM | Report abuse

Bernie,

Again, thanks for providing those examples. What I noticed, in your provided examples, was that a lot of the incidents reported were of crimes committed by either white supremacists or neo Nazis. I decided to look up the FBI statistics for hate crimes, figuring that this so called “rightwing hate rhetoric” would, based on your examples, is show an increase in hate crimes.

What I found was interesting. The following is a listing of the total number of hate crime incidents reported for 2007, 2008 and 2009 (2010 is not yet available:

2007: 7,624
2008: 7,783
2009: 6,604

Interestingly, the data for 2009 shows a rather remarkable reduction in hate crimes. This doesn’t seem to jibe with your perceptions, especially considering that over that summer (2009) the Tea Parties were quite vociferously attending Congressional Town Halls, as well as being the time of Palin’s Death Panel and other supposed rightwing demagogueing. Below are the sources for the data so far.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/november/hate_112210/hate_112210
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/data/table_01.html
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_01.htm

Part 1

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 9:54 PM | Report abuse

You can do it ruk, it's easy peasy, and I promise it's everything you wanted.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 9:55 PM | Report abuse

part 2


Another thing I thought might demonstrate whether “rightwing hate rhetoric” could be demonstrated to be causing problems is the statistics on violence. Here are statistics for violent crime for 2007, 2008 and 2009:

2007: Nationwide, an estimated 1,408,337 violent crimes occurred. When data for 2007 were compared with 2006 data, the estimated volume of violent crime declined 0.7 percent.
2008: An estimated 1,382,012 violent crimes occurred nationwide in 2008, showing a decrease of 1.9 percent from the 2007 estimate.
2009: In 2009, an estimated 1,318,398 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of 5.3 percent from the 2008 estimate.

This data also seems to show a decrease in violent crime, something we wouldn’t expect if the so called “rightwing hate rhetoric” was having an effect. Below are the links for the data.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/violent_crime/index.html
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/violent_crime/index.html
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/index.html

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 9:55 PM | Report abuse

Do you suppose this fellow had been listening to too much Right Wing Hate speech?

-------

"On December 7, 1993 Colin Ferguson boarded a Long Island commuter train and began shooting the passengers with a Ruger P-89 9mm pistol. The incident known as the Long Island Railroad Massacre resulted in six people being killed and 19 injured.

"After arresting Ferguson, police found pieces of notebook paper in his pockets with scribbled notes with the heading "reasons for this". One of the notes referred to "racism by Caucasians and Uncle Tom Negroes". They included a reference to "the false allegations against me by the filthy Caucasian racist female on the #1 line", a reference to his February 1992 arrest. Ferguson's notes expressed anger toward the New York State Workers Compensation Board, Asians, New York Governor Mario Cuomo, and "so-called civil right leaders such as the Rev. Herbert Daughtry, C. Vernon Mason, and Calvin Butts". They also included the names and telephone numbers of the New York lieutenant governor, the attorney general's office and the Manhattan law firm Ferguson previously threatened, who Ferguson referred to as "those corrupt 'black' attorneys who not only refuse to help me but tried to steal my car". The notes indicated Ferguson planned to wait to start the killings until after he was beyond the New York City limits out of respect for outgoing New York City Mayor David Dinkins and New York City Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly.

"Many people in the African American community expressed concern the Ferguson shootings would lead to a backlash of violence and racial animosities against the black community. Civil rights activists Al Sharpton and Herbert Daughtry urged that African Americans in general not be blamed for the crime; Sharpton, in particular, criticized what he called attempts "to demonize black and Hispanic dissatisfaction" by linking those groups to the murders."

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 9:56 PM | Report abuse

part 3


Finally, we might conclude that “rightwing hate rhetoric” would incite an increase in property crimes. What we find, again, is more decrease, rather than an expected increase. Below is the source.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/property_crime/index.html

By FBI statistics, at least through 2009, it just doesn’t pan out that “rightwing hate rhetoric” is increasing any problems in this country, other than, as I mentioned earlier, aesthetics.

As a side note, the FBI’s preliminary data for 2010 for the categories mentioned above all show decreases year over year. Not official but, interestingly anecdotal, no?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/preliminary-crime-in-the-us-2009/prelimiucrjan-jun_10_excels/table-2

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 9:57 PM | Report abuse

@qb: "Amazing. Good thing no liberals ever list Worst Persons in the World or anything like that."

But that's different. Because he's only talk about one person, so it's okay. Or something.

False equivalency!

There. It's settled. Phew!

There. It settled.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 9:57 PM | Report abuse

"And things have to change now, to make sure nothing like that ever happens again."

Here, Kevin, I am in complete agreement with you. When our elected representatives in a democracy [and that includes republicans too, as they could just as easily be targeted for a 'wrong' vote] start having to fear appearing in public and meeting with their constituents, we are in deep trouble and headed in a disastrously third world direction.

I ask you in the spirit of what is best for saving our republic -- can we not all agree that we love this country and want it to survive, and do not want to see any of our leaders harmed, no matter whether we like them or their policies?

What do you think should be changed?

Posted by: fiona5 | January 10, 2011 10:03 PM | Report abuse

Troll, I'm confused. I thought facts had a liberal bias. But apparently not, eh?

Stop cluttering the narrative with your so-called "statistics".

:)

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 10:04 PM | Report abuse

ruk,

I think an anonymous comment board's got to be a piece of cake compared to your 'Nam days. :-)

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 10:07 PM | Report abuse

Mike:

I think clawrence is paraphrasing Paul Kanjorski (D-Pennsylvania) stating that Florida gov Rick Scott should be stood up against a wall and shot, and seeing if anyone remembers it.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/01/dem_congressman_suggests_shoot.html


Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 10:09 PM | Report abuse

{{{Injury timeout}}}

RU,

I'm not that angry, well maybe a little, particularly not with you if you thought so...

This from my post: "It's a libel, and a cynical and contemptibly tenuous one at that." was generic in scope, not directed at you.

(But directed for sure at the suppurating vulturine abominations like Krugman--who, by godlike f'n omniscience, fingered half the nation as accomplices to mass-murder at 3:22pmEST, 1.8.2010. The man has The Conscience of a Jackal.)

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 10:10 PM | Report abuse

Kevin,

Well, who knew? I'm sure though, that "it doesn't prove a thing."

Ergo, I denounce myself.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 10:10 PM | Report abuse

"What do you think should be changed?"

I can't even begin to pretend to answer this on an iPhone that is five minutes from going dark. I think guns are too easy to get in some cases, and that maybe the secret service could use some more personell to cover events like these and a dialog on how to approach mentally I'll people who usually do give warnings things nay get ugly.

That something like this has to immediately become a blame finding fight where we are all accusing each other us disheartening. But maybe in some way it's a nonintuitive indicator of how much we all really do care. I hope.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 10:12 PM | Report abuse

Off topic but in a theological-musing mode tonite, it struct me as rather undeniable that those people up in Heaven? They're on welfare.

There's just no question about it.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 10, 2011 10:15 PM | Report abuse

"(But directed for sure at the suppurating vulturine abominations like Krugman--who, by godlike f'n omniscience, fingered half the nation as accomplices to mass-murder at 3:22pmEST, 1.8.2010. The man has The Conscience of a Jackal.)"

Yesterday I linked a Krugman column from December of '09 where he called for Lieberman to be hung in effigy. Why does Krugman engage in "rightwing hate rhetoric"?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 10:15 PM | Report abuse

Troll & Mike:
I've also seen the same FBI stats used to show no correlation between poverty and crime rates.
Unemployment about doubled, but crimes down or flat last three years.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 10:16 PM | Report abuse

Q.B. "Be sure in your listings that you and Bernie cover the many class warriors who've shot up (or tried) their work places in the perfect acting out of left-wing anticorporatist rhetoric."

Actually that's your job Q.B. You're the one who seems hung up on all this equivalency.
In all honesty Q.B. I haven't heard any top rated radio hosts or TV pundits who regularly whip out anticorporatist rhetoric. I've seen nobody in the streets with weapons threatening Corporations to stop raping and pillaging (I'm not saying they all rape and pillage I'm simply searching for an "equivalent"). In fact I hear very little anticorporatist rhetoric it's mostly a partisan battle between righties and lefties.

Now if you are referring to what you might characterize "anti-corporatist" rhetoric coming from me or wbgonne or some other posters here fine..but we are not widely disseminated and hardly equivalent to political leaders.

But I'm curious Q.B. First are you going to make me google or will you accept the statistical fact that the middle class grew in our nation from the 40's to the late 70's at which point it began to shrink? I'm not placing a value judgment on this fact...not saying whether it's good or bad...just that it is a fact that our middle class is shrinking.

Now can you even accept that someone like me who posits that wow...for those of us who do believe in the "American Dream" and egalitarianism(not to be confused with socialism) it simply makes sense to examine the two periods...1945-1977 versus 1978-2010. Compare the tax codes and financial regulations and perhaps think that it might make more sense..IF we wish to get our middle class growing again...to adopt many of the same tax structures and financial regs that were in existence when we were growing the middle class.

You are obviously free to disagree with my desire to return to the tax codes to a more historical place...same with financial regs in the hopes of repeating success. But really calling me a socialist or some other name doesn't really make a point for you...and in fact insinuates that the John Birchers were right when they called Eisenhower a socialist.

I understand you come from the smaller government lower taxes "personal responsibility side of the spectrum. Does that mean I'm supposed to call you a selfish pig or a fascist. What would be gained.

Don't want to spoil your fun Q.B. But it's not a competition...we simply disagree.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 10:17 PM | Report abuse

Olberman Meditations on Civility:

"The total mindless, morally bankrupt, knee-jerk, fascistic hatred, without which Michelle Malkin would just be a big mashed-up bag of meat with lipstick on it."

“In Scott Brown we have an irresponsible, homophobic, racist, reactionary, ex–nude model, teabagging supporter of violence against women and against politicians with whom he disagrees.”

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 10:18 PM | Report abuse

Olberman Meditations on Civility:

"The total mindless, morally bankrupt, knee-jerk, fascistic hatred, without which Michelle Malkin would just be a big mashed-up bag of meat with lipstick on it."

“In Scott Brown we have an irresponsible, homophobic, racist, reactionary, ex–nude model, teabagging supporter of violence against women and against politicians with whom he disagrees.”

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 10:18 PM | Report abuse

"Unemployment about doubled, but crimes down or flat last three years."

Along with the idea that Mideast poverty leads to terrorism.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 10:18 PM | Report abuse

Being someone who both cherishes the first amendment but also attempts (not always successfully) to temper her speech so as not to be offensive or vitriolic, and watching the pissing contest here and elsewhere yesterday and today, I think I'll just continue to do my own thing and let the rest of y'all sink or swim on your own words. Frankly, neither the right or the left is doing all that great of a job in or out of DC. It's no wonder Congress has such a dismal approval rating and from some of the comments here, Greg's blog may be suffering the same fate.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 10:20 PM | Report abuse

lms,

Really hope "...continue to do your own thing" does not = I'm outa here.

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 10:25 PM | Report abuse

Kevin and Q.B.

@qb: "Amazing. Good thing no liberals ever list Worst Persons in the World or anything like that."

That was a bad choice for you guys. Olbermann, unlike Palin/Bachmann/Limbaugh IS capable of self reflection. He pulled that feature for a a period of time because of what we are now discussing about toxicity in the ether. After discussing with his viewers and producers he came back with NOT REALLY WORST PERSONS IN THE WORLD. There is really no violent rhetoric just sarcasm...offensive perhaps...but nowhere NEAR what the fat blowhard has said for decades...

Can you imagine either Palin or Bachmann EVER admitting to an error in judgment ala Olbermann...well time will tell.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 10:26 PM | Report abuse

I'm waiting for the Paul Kanjorski / Alan Grayson 2012 presidential ticket to lead the nation in calm national dialog.

If Rahm is defeated in his run for Capo du Tutti Capi of Chicago he can be their manager.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 10:31 PM | Report abuse

@tao Sorry perhaps bad post on my part.
I didn't take your "anger" personally because I didn't perceive directed at me.
I simply sensed a little more frustration in you tonight than normal. Perhaps it's the fact that neither your Gman or my Bucs made the playoffs despite ten wins!!!!!

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 10:31 PM | Report abuse

lms,

Really hope "...continue to do your own thing" does not = I'm outa here.

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 10:25 PM

Agreed 100% In all this discussion about civility it would be a disaster to lose the most civil poster amongst us.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 10:33 PM | Report abuse

Bernie,

"There's just no question about it."

You've sort of, a bit roughly, in a foggy temporal kinda sideways way...cracked the code as much as we mortal worms can, a little.

I like it, congrats.

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 10:35 PM | Report abuse

Sarah Palin faces the same dilemma Socrates faced. Her rhetoric links her with what happened even if she had absolutely nothing to do with the horrible event. She is faced a really tough choice: either continuing with the same cynical, violence-tinged rhetoric or backing off and sounding like a hypocrite ... and let's face it: Palin's “I hate violence. I hate war” sounds a little "hopey-changey."

The most graceful thing for her to do might be to accept political exile.

Anyone who regularly incites the mob should understand how quickly the mob can turn.

Posted by: jjofeb1 | January 10, 2011 10:40 PM | Report abuse

It seems to me that between the failure of many states to flag known persons who are mentally ill and the failure to reinstate the assault weapons ban, we have some work to do. I admit to knowing absolutely nothing about guns, never even touched one, but it just doesn't make sense to make it easier for people to get a hold of these weapons that take out so many at one time. I'm not opposed to gun ownership, it's politically incorrect anyway and I accept that, but can anyone explain why we can't just make a couple of tweaks here and there to possibly prevent another Arizona from happening. Or maybe we're all in agreement? :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Current federal laws prohibit selling weapons to the mentally ill but, as forensic psychiatrist Dr. Park Dietz notes, current gun control laws allow “no way to determine [someone] is a mentally ill person.” “The only thing the existing law does about that is quite absurd,” Dietz said, referring to the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms form which only asks the applicant whether “they had been adjudicated dangerously mentally ill.” What’s more, there is no waiting period in Arizona unless someone is flagged by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). A measure even more unlikely to work in Arizona as the state is woefully behind in entering the 121,700 records of disqualifying mental illness into NICS, having entered only 4, 465 between 2008 and 2010.

But even with Loughner slipping through the system, the magazine clip he purchased with his gun wouldn’t have existed had gun laws been up to date. The now-expired assault weapons ban that existed from 1994 to 2004 prohibited gun manufacturers from marketing handguns with the high-capacity magazines Loughner used. Under the assault weapons ban, it was illegal to make or sell clips holding more than 10 rounds. The magazine used by Loughner held 31 rounds. The Brady Campaign said that, had he used a traditional magazine, “it would have drastically reduced the number of shots he got off” before reloading. While President Bush backed renewing the ban, it never passed Congress in 2004.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/10/gun-control-giffords-incident/

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 10:43 PM | Report abuse

mikefromArlington, no.

lmsinca, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 10:49 PM | Report abuse

"lmsinca, don't let the door hit you on the way out."

Clawrence, that was uncalled for and unfair.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 10:55 PM | Report abuse

No, no, I didn't mean I was leaving, it's just pointless to hope the back and forth of examples of he said she said will ever end. I just gotta be me and ignore some of that stuff. There's never a winner and never an apology, c'est la vie, I can accept that and move on.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 10:56 PM | Report abuse

@Brigade - You made the claim that it's liberal states that are badly run and have massive budget deficits. I then pointed out that Texas had a $25B projected deficit (later updated to $27B). Either Texas is a bastion of liberalism unknown to me and Rick Perry, or the claim had a hole in it. As this is a two year budget cycle, we're looking at $500 per capita, which would place TX comfortable in the top tier.

To be fair, I just did a little hunting. It would seem that earlier this year, one could find a correlation. The data appear to be out of date, but let's take it for what it is. There was a decent regional correlation. The NE having been hit (NY, NJ, MA, CT, RI); northern midwest (MN, WI, IL), and southwest (CA, AZ, NM, and now TX). Underlying structural factors are going to affect obligations as well as political leanings. I know. I know. Nuance is lost on the comments section. Still, it'd be interesting to read an article exploring this rather than making cheap political points. Sadly, that's what WIll has sunk to of late.

As for staying up late, I'm working on a manuscript. Not sure if two beers from Trader Joe's over the course of the evening counts as drinking too much. Then again, my comment was posted a number of hours ago, pre-beer.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 10, 2011 10:57 PM | Report abuse

Sorry Claw, you're stuck with me, we can just continue to ignore each other though, works for me.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 10:58 PM | Report abuse

(Darn, I was really hoping for some change - yes, we can ; )

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 11:02 PM | Report abuse

Ims:

It's only about 2 seconds to eject an empty magazine / reload a full one, and in the dynamic target shooting events it is done while moving or acquiring a new target with little impact on score or course time.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 11:03 PM | Report abuse

"It's only about 2 seconds to eject an empty magazine / reload a full one, and in the dynamic target shooting events it is done while moving or acquiring a new target with little impact on score or course time. "

Would this hold true for someone who had only recently purchased the gun and might not have much shooting experience?

Posted by: schrodingerscat | January 10, 2011 11:06 PM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade,

Here is an interesting take on Texas. Also, a nice gratuitous insult to teh Krug.

lmsinca, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 11:06 PM | Report abuse

Tom

So you're saying that an extended magazine is no different than loading a new clip other than a matter of seconds? The kid in AZ was stopped though between magazines so how would that enter into it? A 61 year old woman (You go girl) was able to slow him down between magazines if I'm understanding the news reports correctly.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 11:09 PM | Report abuse

BB,

"Except that Texas doesn’t do shortfalls. Texas starts from scratch: Every year is basically Year Zero when it comes to the state budget — there is no assumption that next year’s funding will match or exceed this year’s, and the state’s constitution explicitly forbids any legislature to tie the hands of a subsequent legislature, financially or otherwise. When necessary, Texas implements zero-baseline budgets, in order to keep the state living within its means, even if Paul Krugman thinks it beastly."
http://www.nationalreview.com/exchequer/256614/no-paul-krugman-texas-not-broke

Long post, but heard-on-the-street rich.

Posted by: tao9 | January 10, 2011 11:10 PM | Report abuse

McWing, I gotta tell you, you have some of worst pasting skills I've ever seen. LOL

BTW, I've seen some of the same encouraging crime numbers here in So. Cal. We're more civilized than we think.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 11:13 PM | Report abuse

Whoops, sorry Ims, I was trying to post a link. Very embarrassing!

http://www.nationalreview.com/exchequer/256614/no-paul-krugman-texas-not-broke

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 11:15 PM | Report abuse

Link to IDPA.com:

http://idpa.com/dps_info.asp

I've done a little IDPA but then moved and discovered NSCA Sporting Clays. Most fun with any gun that I've ever had.

http://www.nssa-nsca.org/index.php/nsca-sporting-clays-shooting/

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 11:17 PM | Report abuse

TrollMcWingnut, that was uncalled for and unfair.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 11:22 PM | Report abuse

Ims:

Yes, even the short reload time is a vulnerability.
Fantastic that these hero's took him down, but he wasn't a trained shooter or soldier.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 11:29 PM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade:
"@Brigade - You made the claim that it's liberal states that are badly run and have massive budget deficits. I then pointed out that Texas had a $25B projected deficit (later updated to $27B). Either Texas is a bastion of liberalism unknown to me and Rick Perry, or the claim had a hole in it. As this is a two year budget cycle, we're looking at $500 per capita, which would place TX comfortable in the top tier."
-------

It sounds like something I'd say, but I really don't remember it. It must have been quite some time ago.

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 11:30 PM | Report abuse

Troll - Texas has a projected shortfall of $27B in the next biennial budget. Roughly $500 per capita. They will have to make serious adjustments in the budget. The problem with the NR claim is that most states have to balance their budgets.

[Listening to Bill Kristol on C-SPAN this morning was enough NR for me for the day.]

My understanding is that Texas has been lightly touched by the recession. That gusher of oil revenues helps. And they STILL have to deal with a massive shortfall. It's fun pointing fingers at the other side, but when a tidal wave hits the beach, it's churlish to point fingers at those closest to the shore.

I also have my doubts about some of the data being used. I did a little hunting around and Virginia showed up as one of the top 10 states for deficits. Except for the fact that the budget here had to be balanced and Virginia, in fact, has a SURPLUS in the current fiscal year. Both Kaine and McDonnell had to make some serious cuts in spending. I've seen some effects as the special needs pre-K program has suffered on the margins. So, they're running short on supplies and the parents are helping out. The field trip was canceled. [Seemed unfair to me and we've benefited immeasurably from the program, so I donated the money so they could have their trip.]

Ah well, gotta get back to that paper. My writer's block seems to have finally cleared. Must be the spiked Italian soda I made.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 10, 2011 11:35 PM | Report abuse

Tom

"but he wasn't a trained shooter or soldier."

How many of these guys are? That was sort of my point, wouldn't a ban on extended magazines cut down the death toll at least when one of these killers gets a hold of a gun? Is there a compelling reason to have an extended magazine that I'm not aware of? And wouldn't this be considered a compromise position on gun ownership that would be acceptable and maybe save lives as well?

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 11:35 PM | Report abuse

It is clear to me that Rain Forest Rising has defeated all the democrats this weekend

Single handedly


Amazingly victory for the right to see the Obama paid trolls go down like that.


There's a reason we play the game.


Posted by: OrangeDogs | January 10, 2011 11:37 PM | Report abuse

It sounds like something I'd say, but I really don't remember it. It must have been quite some time ago.

Posted by: Brigade | January 10, 2011 11:30 PM | Report abuse

---

It was this morning. I commented on the projected $25B budget deficit of Texas and then updated it to $27B. Couldn't help noting that you didn't respond to the original post, though it looks like you were off line for awhile.

Anyway, looking into this has been enlightening. A former Fix friend of mine snarkily noted that it must be an effect of the blue states having to support the red states. Blue states tend to be net contributors to the federal government and 20% of federal revenues head right back to the states. Heh.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 10, 2011 11:38 PM | Report abuse

Well this BSC game is really sucking.

Ruk,

"That was a bad choice for you guys. Olbermann, unlike Palin/Bachmann/Limbaugh IS capable of self reflection. He pulled that feature for a a period of time because of what we are now discussing about toxicity in the ether. After discussing with his viewers and producers he came back with NOT REALLY WORST PERSONS IN THE WORLD. There is really no violent rhetoric just sarcasm...offensive perhaps...but nowhere NEAR what the fat blowhard has said for decades..."

Come on, man, that is WEAK. You cited a book about people screwing up the country. KO ran WPITW for years, then he took a haiatus and brought it back as Not Really The Worst . . . . That's your defense?

As for nowhere near . . . you are wrong by a country mile. I've never hear Rush even get close to the KO level of bile and vitriol. And of course it isn't just KO. You've got Ed Shultz and all his Psycho Talk smears and hate rhetoric.

Just give it up already. Your side is just as "dirty" as you claim mine is. And more.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 11:39 PM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade,

Here's a source for the current sit/rep for the Texas budget. In Texas, they do two year budgets, just an fyi.

Also, there's 9 billion in the rainy day fund but it takes a 2/3rd's vote of the lege to get at it. I think they'll try and do it without it. Will be interesting.

You may also want to question MarkinAustin. He's in the Capital, and I think works for the state.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/26430436/detail.html

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 11:47 PM | Report abuse

Ims:

There are about 60 million people owning about 200 million firearms in the US (per BBC - first link I saw). Probably more, about half of mine were dads' and grandfathers' from 50-100 yrs ago when there wasn't even a BATFE or NICS background check.

I'm not keen on govt's regulating everybodys mag capacity based on a few psycho's a year.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 11:57 PM | Report abuse

ruk,

Yes by anticorporatism I mean the same "progressive" class warfare that is stock in trade here, on MSNBC, Krugman/NYT etc. You could make a list of crimes by nuts acting out this hate rhetoric just like bernie's list. No, I'm not going to do that googling for you. If you don't think such cases prove anything, fine, tell that to bernie and all your soulmates.

We've debated taxes and the middle class before. Really don't feel like rehearsing it it again. A return to 90% top marginal rate is a ridiculous idea. Perhaps we could throw wage and price controls on top. That would really help us grow.

This isn't 1945. The world isn't in ruins after a world war after a world depression and in the midst of transformation from an agrarian to industrial economy.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 11:59 PM | Report abuse

tao,

The game just got interesting. 19-19 tie. 2 point conversion with a bad snap.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 10, 2011 11:59 PM | Report abuse

Followed by major Duck defensive choke to still lose the game. Shoulda scored when they were on the 1/2 yard line.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 12:05 AM | Report abuse

Troll,

My brother-in-law and very good friend is an Alabama grad...soooo Roll Tide and sshhhhhh...

Go Tigers.

{{{Dux don't finish DOH! tackle, heh}}}

WTF OMG TD!!!

Posted by: tao9 | January 11, 2011 12:06 AM | Report abuse

I don't think the play stands. Wow, nice drive, regardless.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 11, 2011 12:07 AM | Report abuse

They'll score. Way to make it interesting though. Got a buddy at the game, he's a Duck, texting me.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 11, 2011 12:09 AM | Report abuse

Freakin' wild!

Posted by: tao9 | January 11, 2011 12:09 AM | Report abuse

QB1:
Agreed.
And we're competing for resources and markets with China and India, which are, and have in many areas, transformed from an agricultural to industrial and now even infotech/computing skillsets. And they are the most populated nations on earth.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 11, 2011 12:10 AM | Report abuse

Silly Pac10 teams don't tackle.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 12:10 AM | Report abuse

Fantastic news about Rep. Gifford!

http://www.kold.com/global/story.asp?s=13816309

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 11, 2011 12:11 AM | Report abuse

Tom

Sorry to be a pest, I get the aversion to gov't regulation coming from you and others here, but still what's the necessity of having the extra mag capacity in the first place? I fall on the other side of the equation, a few psychos a year can take out quite a few innocents, and what would you and other gun owners really be giving up? I guess that's where the argument loses me. Is it ideology or necessity that's holding up a compromise here?

Posted by: lmsinca | January 11, 2011 12:12 AM | Report abuse

Jeebus, what an ending. Still, a real team woulda gone for the touchdown. Field goal doesn't seem cricket.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 11, 2011 12:13 AM | Report abuse

Stupid Ducks

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 12:23 AM | Report abuse

That's what I like about the South (East Conference):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_dK0W0qfRo&feature=related

Posted by: tao9 | January 11, 2011 12:24 AM | Report abuse

"Silly Pac10 teams don't tackle."

C'mon. One of the NFL's most intense tacklers, Chuck Cecil came out of the University of Arizona. Completely gratuitous and a completely unnecessary increase in the "tone" of the discussion.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 11, 2011 12:24 AM | Report abuse

Ims:

I have 20, 14, 10 and 7 rds mags for various .45ACP semi-auto pistols and a .45ACP carbine rifle that latches same.

I want them all, and using the western democracies England and Australia as a guide: 20 then 14 then 10 then 7 becomes Zero for me and the approx 60m law abiding citizens but the criminals still have plenty.

Outright prohibition of private firearms even on those island countries has not reduced crime. Similar to Chicago and DC.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 11, 2011 12:28 AM | Report abuse

"Fantastic news about Rep. Gifford!"

Yeah, it sounds like she's got a shot at a recovery. Did you read where they removed part of her skull and will put it back later, yikes. I guess they've learned a lot about brain injuries in Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, she was in surgery within 40 minutes, which was huge.

I'm out, have a good night all. And qb, but a little 3% increase wouldn't bankrupt people making over a million would it? Everyone else is sacrificing, even the dreaded public employees, how about a little sharing the pain of austerity? :)

Posted by: lmsinca | January 11, 2011 12:30 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for the dialog folks.

10:30 here and a 05:00 wakeup coming.

Busy day again tomorrow in the "machinegun factory" ;)

Posted by: TominColorado | January 11, 2011 12:34 AM | Report abuse

Troll,

I'm mad at the Ducks! You know what they say around here -- I'm full of seething anger. Let me enjoy my 10-minute Duck hate (with a little PAC10 spite thrown in).

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 12:38 AM | Report abuse

Tom

There is zero percent chance you'll lose your guns. This is the wild west for gun ownership, that battle was won ages ago by you guys and the NRA. I predict there's no chance of anything changing in the near future either, so you're safe. I just think it's too bad we can't reach a compromise on the number of bullets at least, I don't get that at all.

Night all

Posted by: lmsinca | January 11, 2011 12:44 AM | Report abuse

'I have 20, 14, 10 and 7 rds mags for various .45ACP semi-auto pistols and a .45ACP carbine rifle that latches same.

I want them all, and using the western democracies England and Australia as a guide: 20 then 14 then 10 then 7 becomes Zero for me and the approx 60m law abiding citizens but the criminals still have plenty. '

just a question --why? why do you spend so much on this stuff? what are you afraid of? Who do you think is going to hurt you? Seriously. I just don't get it.

Posted by: fiona5 | January 11, 2011 12:46 AM | Report abuse

"Amazing. Good thing no liberals ever list Worst Persons in the World or anything like that."

You didn't finish:

Amazing. Good thing no liberals ever list Worst Persons in the World or anything like that *after shooting up a church full of righties*.

I agree. That IS a very good thing, indeed.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 11, 2011 1:55 AM | Report abuse

I knew as soon as I saw his You tube vids that this guy was probably the type who believes in ideas like you find on sites like this. It will be interesting to see what they find on his computer but I'd but money he's been noodling around this type of stuff.

http://www.institutefortruthstudies.com/id2.html

http://www.americanfreepress.net/

http://www.themoneymasters.com/

Posted by: Truthteller12 | January 11, 2011 2:39 AM | Report abuse

Hate speech hits a bump in the road and will be back to normal after a couple of blocks. Does anyone think the right is going to tone it down? What else do they have? Ideas? Policies?

Hate speech is it.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 6:21 AM | Report abuse

'I have 20, 14, 10 and 7 rds mags for various .45ACP semi-auto pistols and a .45ACP carbine rifle that latches same.

I want them all, and using the western democracies England and Australia as a guide: 20 then 14 then 10 then 7 becomes Zero for me and the approx 60m law abiding citizens but the criminals still have plenty. '

==

I don't even want to imagine the frightening world inside the head of whoever posted this.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 6:28 AM | Report abuse

All the liberal pundits have their dampened panties in a knot over this latest atrocity. They will do nothing BUT use the unfortunate victims as a tool to further their beloved, Democrat party's fortunes, such as they are.

The WaPo is saturated with pieces that are directed AT Republican and Tea Party. This tragedy is their version of a loaded gun full of ammo.

This is a nation that values free speech and political rhetoric is part of it. Republicans seem to be better at political rhetoric, at the moment, and that enrages liberals, to no end. Now, liberals are pro-censorship because it benefits them.

Let a Cross be dunked in urine or be covered with ants and it's no problem. Liberals want to throw money at that garbage.

But, if the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh criticize the poor, little liberals, the liberals scream foul! and want the fairness doctrine back.

Free speech must be for all and not a selected few.

Posted by: battleground51 | January 11, 2011 6:30 AM | Report abuse

Just reviewed the evening posts.

I think the line of the evening goes to the BB but then he's a writer and we expect him to turn a good phrase. I particularly enjoyed this one during the discussion about Texas economic condition.

"but when a tidal wave hits the beach, it's churlish to point fingers at those closest to the shore."

Well said and precisely on point Blade!

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 11, 2011 6:48 AM | Report abuse

"I'm out, have a good night all. And qb, but a little 3% increase wouldn't bankrupt people making over a million would it? Everyone else is sacrificing, even the dreaded public employees, how about a little sharing the pain of austerity?"

==

Not interested in qb's reply, if I want to know any of his positions I can go look them up on any of the right wing policy sites.

It's worth nothing that the rich could pay a lot more taxes and still come nowhere near what they were paying while Reagan was president, much less what they should be paying, as when Eisenhower was president. Both Republicans, by the way.

Really need to wonder about people whose interests are in no way connected with the weathy being so admantly on ther side. Under the demise of the proressive income tax the wealthy have been able to hang onto trillions of dollars they wouldn't have had without the changes since Reagan, and there's no evidence that this favoritism of the privileged and powerful has done the nation any good at all. Quite the contrary.

What's qb hoping for? "Attaboy?"

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 7:01 AM | Report abuse

"It's worth nothing that the rich could pay a lot more taxes and still come nowhere near what they were paying while Reagan was president,"

By what measure?

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 7:09 AM | Report abuse

I'm out, have a good night all. And qb, but a little 3% increase wouldn't bankrupt people making over a million would it? Everyone else is sacrificing, even the dreaded public employees, how about a little sharing the pain of austerity?

==

Thanks, ruk, I've enjoyed a number of your posts. Can't say I share your respect for the conservatives on here, I find most of them far too predictable and nasty to be worth the time. Most of them serve as conduits for positions not their own and they don't support them very well.

As for my "gassed" line, at one point I was going to comment on it but it's so clearly hyperbole that I don't think I need to, and anyway I wouldn't want to deprive qb, Scott, Kevin, etc. etc. of their pasttimes. So I will leave it as written and let them stew.

I didn't think Sapir-Whorf was that obscure a reference, it's from an area where I'm rather dismally tutored but it's one of those things like general relativity that even the descriptively educated should know about.

I'm only on here for the Morning Plum and Roundup threads, I live on the other side of the world, in a place where "we're all in it together" isn't a sentiment that'll get your windows shot out.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 7:11 AM | Report abuse

"You didn't finish:

Amazing. Good thing no liberals ever list Worst Persons in the World or anything like that *after shooting up a church full of righties*.

I agree. That IS a very good thing, indeed."

Ah, I see where you are going here. Your retort implies that Bernie Goldberg shot up a church full of lefties before he wrote his book on the 100 people screwing up the country. I didn't know that about him. Quite amazing he's allowed to go around free after such a crime.

I can see you are a smart one.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 7:15 AM | Report abuse

ust a question --why? why do you spend so much on this stuff? what are you afraid of? Who do you think is going to hurt you? Seriously. I just don't get it.

==

Remember the Terry Shiavo thing? The emergency session when Frist claimed magical powers of remote diagnosis? I went over to freerepublic to see what the brachiators were saying about it.

They were getting themselves all torqued up talking like she was a terrified hostage and they were going to mount an armed attack on he hospital and rescue her. In between all the Big Talk about the liberal "culture of death" they would each do a paragraph or three lovingly enumerating their arsenals .. each gun, each accessory and add-on, complete with full brand and model number, letters and numbers and dashes.

It was a *riot*.

You really need to wonder about this gun fetish thing. Exactly which of the short list of inadequacies they were compensating for.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 7:19 AM | Report abuse

After watching the obscenity of the left's reaction to Tuscon unfold for a couple of days now, I think it very likely that there will be a strong political backlash against Democrats for it. We've run out or words to describe how depraved and low the left can and will go to attack and destroy its opposition, but wherever the lowest low lies, it can't really be much lower than the insanity of this performance.

Just step back a moment. The bodies of 6 dead including a nine-year-old girl literally were still warm when the left, led by ghouls like Markos, Krugman, and the "Sheriff" of Pima County stepped on them to accuse Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, and all conservatives in general, of guilt for the massacre, fixing blame on a silly campaign map no different than countless ones used by all sides for years.

They did it before the shooter was even identified, and when it turned out he was a paranoid schizophrenic, and there was no evidence whatsover that he was influenced by the putative malefactors, the left just continued to double down and raise the level of their invective. Why so defensive!? If you weren't guilty, why wouldn't you tone down your rhetoric, started the 7th grade taunts.

But you on the extreme left who have participated in this crazed frenzy of irrational attacks still represent a tiny minority. And by impugning the entire conservative movement with accusations that anyone with a sound mind recognizes as outrageous, nonsensical calumnies, you've just given millions and millions of people further resolve to push you out of power and to the margins where you belong, and you've shown millions more in the middle just how sick and destructive and unprincipled your ideology and your faction are.

The only question is how lasting the damage you've done to yourselves will be, and how long the memory of these smears and libels will be. You'll have nearly two years to live down the infamy of these days. But I don't think that will be nearly enough.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 7:39 AM | Report abuse

George Will has the smartest take of the day on this matter. He riddles the "charlatans of the left" with intellectual bullets.

There have always been insane people who do crazy things.

This is just the latest installment.

Liberals are using this tragedy, as a weapon, to beat down their political enemies. That is painfully obvious and expected.

It only serves to make the situation worse because it is a false accusation. Being falsely accused is an outrage to anyone.

Why do liberals always favor ideas that backfire??

Let's ask Obama!

Posted by: battleground51 | January 11, 2011 7:42 AM | Report abuse

"The emergency session when Frist claimed magical powers of remote diagnosis?"

I wonder if that's anything like the mindreading and remote forensic psychiatry the left has been practice en masse on a paranoid schizophrenic for three days.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 7:43 AM | Report abuse

@ruk: "That was a bad choice for you guys."

So, have you installed the WaPo Troll Hunter yet? ;)

That being said, Olberman's a fine example--easily comparable to an O'Rielly or a Goldberg. But, more the point, "false equivalency" is a Get Out of Jail Free card for whoever uses it.

There's really not much room for discussion when it's okay for you to (to borrow some violent imagery) hit me with a shovel, because you later said you regretted it, but it's not okay for me to hit you with a shovel (this is metaphorical--nobody do this at home!) because I'm not as promptly apologetic.

In fact, it's not okay to hit people with shovels. Period. Arguing it's okay when people you like do it because of this or that nuance, but not when other people do it, because, well, they're just meaner about it . . .

One of the many reasons we're not going to have more civil conversation, generally, although hopefully we can do it amongst ourselves: we can't even agree on what it means to have a civil conversation.

While it may comforting to respond that: "Well, if we can't agree on what it is to have a civil conversation, then you're an idiot" (not you, personally, but some others), well . . . we're still not in a great position to start a dialog.

Again: if you get to decide what is harassment from your side, and what is harassment from the other side, it's like a divorce lawyer handling both sides of the case, one of whom is his BFF and the other "he never really liked". ;)

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 7:48 AM | Report abuse

@quarterback: "I wonder if that's anything like the mindreading and remote forensic psychiatry the left has been practice en masse on a paranoid schizophrenic for three days."

Heck, Ethan2010, wbgonne, and other left-of-center commenters here read my mind all the time. It's amazing. And they are actually right almost 10% of the time. What are the odds? ;)

BTW: I have mentioned before that I think humanity tends to be tribal. Thus, everything bad tends to be blamed on that bad tribe over there. Bad circumstances, bad weather, bad crops. Crazy people.

"You'll have nearly two years to live down the infamy of these days. But I don't think that will be nearly enough."

I think it will be. People have short memories, and 30% of the population probably agrees or kind of agrees or at least thinks it's plausible. Other things will be pressing in 2012 (the economy, ahem). Also--and this may just be me--but I don't think either side has (on the whole) served itself very well, although I'm more sympathetic with the conservative points I've heard, most of which have sounded reasonable. I just don't care for the immediate moving of this into a huge political debate . . . but, I dunno. I wish a few more conservatives would acknowledge that, even though both sides really do it, some of the targeting and quasi-violent imagery may *not* be a good idea, just on GP, in this day and age.

One reason I love the Ricochet podcast is because it's a candid discussion between thoughtful conservatives. The most recent episode started with several of the roundtable talking about how Boehner's crying was creeping them out (Jonah Goldberg defended, however) and how the Republicans were inevitably going to go wobbly and lose their nerve.

Anyhoo, I just don't think the immediate politics of spin is great. Of course, my preference: "Well, you know, people are responsible for their own actions, everybody has used this kind of imagery, yes Angle shouldn't have talked about 2nd amendment solutions but, you know what, she lost, but, yeah, maybe we have enough violent imagery on TV and in video games and we can find other kinds of metaphors for our politics, on both sides" my end up in very boring Sunday morning television. "You first, my dear." - "No, you." - "Oh, no, no, no, no. I insist. •You• first." Etc.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 8:01 AM | Report abuse

Who wants to start handicapping when the first lawsuit will be filed against the Sheriff of Nuttingham for his negligence in allowing Loughner to run free and commit these horrible crimes? Who doubts that his hamfisted political attacks are partly defensive and intended to deflect blame from himself?

And what are the odds he will also be sued by victims for his political attacks after the shootings, falsely claiming that they were motivated by Palin et al.? I can see grieving families and victims with aggressive lawyers coming forward with emotional distress claims. It wouldn't be much of a stretch in today's legal environment.

He'll probably have to answer some hard questions for which he has foolishly set himself up. It's not hard to start imagining the possibilities.

"Sheriff, in your duties as Sheriff you've been observing the growing climate of anger and hate caused by vitriolic political rhetoric for many years, haven't you?"

"The political climate was dangerous on January 8, 2011, wasn't it?"

"Because of years of hateful and vitriolic rhetoric against the government by right-wing figures like Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh, correct?"

"It was very dangerous for political office holders, correct?"

"Especially Democrats, correct?"

"You knew all that, right?"

"You told the whole country those things in your multiple interviews on January 8 and 9, 2011, didn't you?"

"And you also knew, from your years as a professional law enforcement officer and Sheriff of Pima County that this climate of anger and hate created an imminent danger that 'unbalanced' people like Jared Loughner would act in it by committing heinous crimes just like this, didn't you?"

"That's something else you told the whole country, isn't it."

"And you also knew that there was a security risk, in this dangerous climate of hate and violence, for an outdoor political event like the one held by Gabrielle Giffords on January 8, 2011, didn't you?"

Then a skilled examiner can begin to tie it all in with Jared Loughner's multiple "contacts" with local law enforcement and begin asking the hard questions why Dupnik's department let him go, let him buy a gun, and let him walk up to an outdoor political event and start shooting.

The Sheriff is a first-class idiot in addition to a poltical hack. His lawyers and/or the FBI must have taken him and back room and bound and gagged him after his lunatic performance on Sunday.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 8:03 AM | Report abuse

Kevin, nobody is saying that our side never engages in over-the-top rhetoric. I'm amply guilty of it myself. But there are differences, it's not symmetrical.

When Hillary Clinton invoked assassination during the primaries it was in no way a suggestion that assassinating Obama was electoral propriety, and she got blasted for it. Yet not a one of you conservatives is willing to be candid about the clear message of Angle's remarks, much less Palin's map.

Andsorry,but it's not liberals who have a fetish around guns and run around reciting that "tree of liberty" thing, and it's not liberals who shoot up Jewish community centers and abortion doctors and fly planes into federal building and head across the country with trunks of rifles to shoot up some company nobody ever heard of until Glenn Beck decided to weave it into his little tapestry.

Political violence in the USA is overwhelmingly right wing. And the rhetoric of violent insurrection is 100% right wing and has been since the Weathermen.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 8:10 AM | Report abuse

@clawrence: "(Darn, I was really hoping for some change - yes, we can ; )"

Claw, really? Change? I've about had it with your sublimated eliminationist, revolutionary rhetoric.

Yes we can what? Foment violent, armed revolution?

I can read between the lines. I know what you gun fetishists are really saying.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 8:11 AM | Report abuse

Uh....there's a rather significant real-world difference between shovel-violence and gun-violence.

Number of shovel murders per year in America probably rather less, we'd presume?

There's no National Shovel Society interest group deeply entrenched in the power structure of one of the two parties, we'd acknowledge?

It's a tad tough to conceal a shovel, n'est pas?

My cursory check of tv and movie dramas last night revealed 437 acts of gun violence and 1 case of aggravated shovel battery (a 3 Stooges film) and I'm trusting your survey showed something similar?

But I admit that some madwoman with a shovel can easily wade into a crowd and mutiliate a dozen victims in mere seconds if she's enhanced the weapon with, for example, the Acme Rapid-Swing Pneumatic Whirligig (available at all Target stores).

Posted by: bernielatham | January 11, 2011 8:15 AM | Report abuse

Kevin,

Your tally of the long-term politics could be right. Like I said, I think but I don't know. No one one does know.

But the way I look at things like this is that the accusations by the left are objectively outrageous, and their psychological impact will likely accordingly be greater on their opponents than on their own. Plus, the people in the middle are more likely than not to recognize the outrageousness of it all and what it says about the left. And the right wing is still larger than the left. It just is, and all surveys show that.

Maybe it won't go down that way, but I think so. Long term, sure it's a question. But I also count on the left to be despicable enough to keep stirring the cauldron, because it's just what they do and who they are.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 8:16 AM | Report abuse

Can anyone even imagine Palin taking Frum's advice? Not after a whole night of bong hits.

At least she's doing the next best thing: keeping it zipped.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 8:17 AM | Report abuse

"Montenegro" had shovel violence.

Also Abba tunes on the soundtrack, dunno which is more brutal.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 8:20 AM | Report abuse

"One reason I love the Ricochet podcast is because it's a candid discussion between thoughtful conservatives."

I'm too much of a tech klutz. Have never listened to a podcast and don't know how. I guess I've never bothered to pay attention. And, sadly, don't even know what Ricochet is. : (

But if it's another source of the talking points I so desperately need to know what I think, I'll look into it. : )

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 8:21 AM | Report abuse

Kevin

I don't know if you remember my drive by neighbor down the street I mentioned last year, if he's not clawrence, they're dead ringers. I just ignore them both.

qb

I know you think you have your finger on the pulse of America but you may find it's not as clear to others as it apparently is to you. Did you happen to catch the Fox interview of the 61 year old woman who managed to grab the clip away from Loughner? She had some tough things to say re Arizona and the political climate. Things aren't quite crystal clear out here and a whole lot of people are sick of all the gun and revolutionary references whether it had any influence on this incident or not, so there's that as well.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 11, 2011 8:23 AM | Report abuse

Uh, Kevin, under other monikers Clawrence wished death on any number of Democrats and on other posters over on The Fix. And not as hyperbole but most sincerely. And he cheered when Democrats died in office, every time.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 8:24 AM | Report abuse

@cao "Kevin, nobody is saying that our side never engages in over-the-top rhetoric. I'm amply guilty of it myself. But there are differences, it's not symmetrical."

But the asymmetry, if not completely of a "but it's okay when I do it" nature, seems to have a great deal of that, to me. And I do think that's symmetrical--I think folks on both sides tend to feel there are good reasons for their use of certain rhetoric, or that their evocation of historical events is innocent and has no larger meaning, but when those other guys do it . . . now, that's bad.

But it makes a discussion hard. It essentially sounds like a double standard. And you can say it's not, but that's not how it appears, from the other side of the divide.

"When Hillary Clinton invoked assassination during the primaries it was in no way a suggestion that assassinating Obama was electoral propriety, and she got blasted for it."

Mostly by her opposition. Strange, that.

"Yet not a one of you conservatives is willing to be candid about the clear message of Angle's remarks, much less Palin's map."

Yet they, too, have both been blasted for it, and were at the time, by their opposition. And it's clear to me that (a) Angle's remarks were stupid and should have just been dismissed and (b) Sarah Palin's map was no more suggesting political assassination than Hillary Clinton was.

"Andsorry,but it's not liberals who have a fetish around guns and run around reciting that "tree of liberty" thing,"

Yes, but that tree of liberty thing originated with Thomas Jefferson--a small-government liberal. Who also thought the constitution wasn't all that and, in any case, ought to be torn up and redone every generation. So, really, should they be quoting that?

And while liberals may not generally be gun fetishists (except in Hollywood motion pictures and the video game industry), I'm not, either. I'm open to ideas regarding gun control. I've always thought strict licensing is a good idea (with registration). Limiting the number of bullets available in magazines except to specially licensed folks (professional security, ninjas). I also think, after this incident, that their needs to be some (or more) secret service presence at such events.

"and it's not liberals who shoot up Jewish community centers"

Aren't those usually Muslims?

"and abortion doctors"

Those guys are probably right wingers. Fair enough.

"and fly planes into federal building"

Didn't that guy leave an anti-Bush screed, and didn't his resentments against the government have a lot to do with his own personal debt, and poor tax preparation?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/plane-crash-suspects-online-diatribe

"Political violence in the USA is overwhelmingly right wing. And the rhetoric of violent insurrection is 100% right wing"

Even if we accept the premise (which I do only for the sake of argument), it doesn't really imply a solution.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 8:28 AM | Report abuse

@troll - I'll trust that your stats showing overall declines in violent crime are accurate (that matches my understanding of trends).

Of course, what's true for a full set of things isn't necessarily true at all for subsets. We wouldn't expect political talk radio, for example, to influence the frequency of rape or break-and-enter crimes. But we might not be surprised to see it influence political violence.

So there's not much help for you there.

Secondly, you'd still have to address that quantity problem. Why would it be the case that there have been so many acts of violence (as my list above, h/t Digby) perpetrated by individuals and groups associated with modern right wing politics and such a relative few from the left?

Posted by: bernielatham | January 11, 2011 8:31 AM | Report abuse

lms,

I just gave my opinion. Which is that all of the extreme leftists who've steered and dominated the "debate" for three days now into the truly lunatic notion that this is about Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh aren't very representative. You can't get much more anecdotal than on woman, no matter who she is.

I don't know about having my finger on the pulse of the country, but I'm quite sure I have a better reading on it than the Krugmans, Fondas, Markoses, and Greg Sargents of the world. These folks aren't generally aware that there is even a country between the coasts, let alone that people there think for themselves.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 8:33 AM | Report abuse

@cao: "Uh, Kevin, under other monikers Clawrence wished death on any number of Democrats and on other posters over on The Fix. And not as hyperbole but most sincerely. And he cheered when Democrats died in office, every time."

Well, if he does that where I can see it, I will certain criticize him roundly for it. I retroactively condemn his cheering when anybody died in office.

I'm still talking to you, too. I know you see a huge difference. I don't. Sorry.

@lmsinca: "I don't know if you remember my drive by neighbor down the street I mentioned last year, if he's not clawrence, they're dead ringers. I just ignore them both."

Just playing off the "hope and change". I think some of the discussion of what amounts to acceptable speech, and what kind of speech encourages violence, is getting a little silly. "A 2nd American Revolution" is clearly more sentimentalist patriotic rhetoric than a call to blow up federal buildings, just to cite one example.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 8:37 AM | Report abuse

All, Morning Roundup posted:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/the_morning_plum_164.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | January 11, 2011 8:37 AM | Report abuse

A well known liberal was very clear that this was most likely a one-off by a demented individual, and that drawing lines from heated public rhetoric to his mental state was invidious.

John Stewart last night said that it is so tempting to blame something else - video games, rock 'n roll, politicians and pundits - that we have to step back from that exercise and recognize that crazy is crazy, and that fortunately it is rare.

He went on to talk about the two men and the woman who took the shooter down and how that is an uplifting chapter in this sad story. That is how we want to think of ourselves.

I hope some of you saw the first half of "The Daily Show" last night.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 11, 2011 8:38 AM | Report abuse

@qb: re: Ricochet

http://ricochet.com/The-Ricochet-Podcast

Which is a violent bullet reference. Bullets ricochet!

Perhaps they should consider changing the name.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 8:39 AM | Report abuse

qb

I'm just disagreeing with your opinion. As I said last night, in my opinion it's become a pissing contest, no offense. And they'll pretend to pass some half *ssed gun/magazine legislation that will fail, beef up security for Congress and everyone will make a bunch of noise that brings in contributions and that will be that. I'm moving on so I shouldn't have commented on your comment in the first place, my bad.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 11, 2011 8:41 AM | Report abuse

No, Kevin, Hillary supporters blasted her for it too. I was one of them, but not after that.

The fact that Jefferson authored the quote has nothing to do with who's invoking it two hundred plus years later. Hell, a mere fifty years ago there were liberal Republicans and it was Democrats who were the racist party. Things change. Tea Party types wearing the quote on their tea shirts are incoherent when it comes to legitimate conservative issues like government overreach but they're quite clear on wanting people dead. The tyrants in their alleged minds are Democrats and the patriots are themselves.

As for solutions, you wouldn't like mine too much. I'm heartened to hear you support some gun control, thanks for that, thanks more for distinguishing yourself from rote conservative orthodoxy, because the uniformity thereof is really tiresome.

Nobody would argue the fire in a theater example yet someone Angle wasn't even arrested, nor was Palin, and both should have been, in my estimation.

And I would make ownership of guns vastly more difficult, requiring demonstration of need and required training.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 8:41 AM | Report abuse

@bernie: Why are you trying to minimize the impact of shovel violence?

Are you a paid shill for the powerful Shovel Lobby?

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 8:41 AM | Report abuse

As a peripheral observation... this finishes Palin as a potential Presidential candidate wih a happy facility for the establishment structures of the party. Too much gun imagery and associated rhetoric on top of a general acknowledgement of her unsuitability for the post and on top of her steady decline in polling.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 11, 2011 8:42 AM | Report abuse

"and such a relative few from the left? "

Very clever how you use the holes in your own biased "research" to prove they are relatively few. Clever indeed.

How else might this method be applied?

"I've shown that Hispanics committed X crimes in 2012. As this proves, they commit almost all the crimes."

Many possibilities.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 8:43 AM | Report abuse

@bernie: "Secondly, you'd still have to address that quantity problem. Why would it be the case that there have been so many acts of violence (as my list above, h/t Digby) perpetrated by individuals and groups associated with modern right wing politics and such a relative few from the left?"

Because a belief in lower taxes, less regulation, and smaller government naturally attracts violent nutjobs?

I don't see many other options, do you?

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 8:44 AM | Report abuse

"Nobody would argue the fire in a theater example yet someone Angle wasn't even arrested, nor was Palin, and both should have been, in my estimation."

Good grief but every week reveals new levels of idiocy in this person.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 8:48 AM | Report abuse

@cao: "The fact that Jefferson authored the quote has nothing to do with who's invoking it two hundred plus years later."

Kind of my point.

"Nobody would argue the fire in a theater example yet someone Angle wasn't even arrested, nor was Palin, and both should have been, in my estimation."

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Such a standard would actually put a lot of people in jail. I've had employers who used more threatening language.

"And I would make ownership of guns vastly more difficult, requiring demonstration of need and required training."

I don't really have a problem with that but, of course, I'm not a gun owner, and never have owned a gun, so I might not be the best person to be making recommendations.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 8:48 AM | Report abuse

lms,

No problem. Opinion versus opinion. I think how you describe what will likely happen as "policy" response is probably a good prediction. Because it's pretty much what always happens, no matter what happens. Lots of noise and meaningless gyrations leading to not much except more politicians stroking their egos with having "done something" they can campaign on. Heck, the posturing and phony legislative responses are already started.

Where I suppose we'll never agree, though, is that that what you call a p***ing contest has been in my perception no more than an outrageous attack by one side on the other. I don't see how it can be spun a different way with much credibility.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 8:54 AM | Report abuse

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Such a standard would actually put a lot of people in jail. I've had employers who used more threatening language.

==

Methinks you're exaggerating here. An employer who advocated murder? Details, please.

When a freerepublic nutjob put up some Second Amendment stuff outside his cubicle at my last gig, with lovingly detailed graphics of handguns, it was no direct threat to anyone but I was unashamedly manipulative in taking my case to HR, replete with "hostile workplace" this and that, and the guy was soon history.

Angle's line about taking out Harry Reid read, as you wrote earlier, like a direct threat, It was easily the stuff of restraining order if not more. She was only a cash offer away from murder for hire.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 11, 2011 9:15 AM | Report abuse

@cao: "Methinks you're exaggerating here. An employer who advocated murder? Details, please."

Yes. Usually hyperbole, but sometimes (in one case) with a complete with a breakdown of his firearms.

And there is a difference between getting some one fired ("hostile workplace", etc, and if I had it to do all over again I certainly would have documented my experience, which I did not, at the time) and putting them in jail.

Unless, "oh, that was just hyperbole" is going to be a Get Out of Jail Free card for everybody.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 11, 2011 10:02 AM | Report abuse

Kevin, I am neither Imsinca's drive by neighbor nor have I wished death on any Democrats (Frum is a Republican ; )

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 11, 2011 10:35 AM | Report abuse

Btw, Dean has been saying or implying that the TP is racist for at least months now. This wasn't the first time. Not that it matters to our Journolist proprietor.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 11, 2011 1:24 PM | Report abuse

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