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Posted at 5:59 PM ET, 01/14/2011

Happy Hour Roundup

By Greg Sargent

* Michael Steele's tenure as RNC chair comes to a fitting end:

Steele: "And now, I exit stage right." Promptly exits stage left.

* Chris Cillizza introduces us to new RNC chair Reince Priebus, the "anti-Steele," and maps out the daunting challenges he faces.

* Clarification of the day: GOP Rep. Louie Gohmert of Texas is not proposing to allow members of Congress to carry guns within the Capitol building itself or on the House floor, just on the grounds of the Capitol and throughout Washington D.C.:

Members of Congress don't need weapons on the floor since the U.S. Capitol itself is very well protected by some of the greatest men and women in law enforcement today. But there are times when members of Congress do not have the protection of Capitol Hill Police in one of the most dangerous cities in America.

His full statement here.

* Important reality check from Michael Hirsh: "A number of historians, sociologists, and psychologists believe that a correlation exists between periods of angry or intense political divisions in American history and political violence, particularly killings."

* Joe Klein wonders whether the Arizona shooting is enough to get Americans to rethink their right to bear assault weapons.

* McClatchy has an interesting look at Arizona's gun culture as the context for the shooting.

Fun fact: "Arizona's a place where even a TV station is called KGUN."

* Amazing: Gabrielle Giffords, who was shot in the brain less than a week ago, is now able to carry out complex sequences of movement on command, and even touched her wedding ring when her husband asked her to.

* The comically absurd right-wing persecution complex flares up again as The Washington Times decries criticism of Sarah Palin as "the latest round of an ongoing pogrom against conservative thinkers."

* As Steve Benen notes, this bizarre envisioning of "the right as a persecuted minority, and Republican leaders as martyrs," caps a really low week for the right.

* Mixed SOTU seating gaiing more steam? Bipartisanship fetishists swoon as the House GOP majority whip endorses the idea.

* Joe Biden's new centrist chief of staff, Bruce Reed, has angered some progressives who fear he'll champion entitlement cuts, but Sam Stein explains why plenty of lefty heavy hitters are fine with the pick.

* Joan McCarter reminds us that other polling has also shown a sizable bloc of support for expanding the health bill.

* And Joe Scarborough is happy to see Rich Lowry and me having a dialog.

What else is happening?

By Greg Sargent  | January 14, 2011; 5:59 PM ET
Categories:  Happy Hour Roundup, Health reform, House Dems, House GOPers, bipartisanship  
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Comments


The truth is this:


Obama and the democrats just spent the last 2 years trying to convince people that their version of health care is the way to go.


The country has said NO.


Now, we have been over this issue, over and over and over and over


AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER


And Greg the answer is still NO.


Thank you


Now would you just stop annoying the country?


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 14, 2011 6:06 PM | Report abuse

"As Steve Benen notes, this bizarre envisioning of "the right as a persecuted minority, and Republican leaders as martyrs," caps a really low week for the right."

It's not just a week. Outraged self-pity has been the Right's hallmark for 20 years. At least.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 14, 2011 6:07 PM | Report abuse

"Important reality check from Michael Hirsh"

From the article:

"But let’s not deceive ourselves: When it comes to political violence and assassination, the times do count for something. No assassin is an island, no matter how “nuts.” And although historical and sociological data are scant, a number of historians, sociologists, and psychologists believe that a correlation exists between periods of angry or intense political divisions in American history and political violence, particularly killings. This was especially true of the post-Civil War period; the turn of the 20th century, when anarchists were prevalent (one of them killed President McKinley); the late 1960s, which witnessed massive upheaval and a spate of assassinations and shootings; and the 1990s, which spawned militia movements that culminated in the Oklahoma City bombing. And it is perhaps true today."

Posted by: wbgonne | January 14, 2011 6:11 PM | Report abuse

@wb-

"And although historical and sociological data are scant, a number of historians, sociologists, and psychologists believe that a correlation exists..."

Heads up- get ready for the incoming on that quote...

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 14, 2011 6:16 PM | Report abuse

"Joe Biden's new centrist chief of staff, Bruce Reed, has angered some progressives who fear he'll champion entitlement cuts, but Sam Stein explains why plenty of lefty heavy hitters are fine with the pick."

From the article, quoting Dean Baker:

"I was at a Brookings event last month on the deficit and Bruce Reed was honored as the leadoff speaker based on his role as lead staffer for the Bowles-Simpson commission. Anyhow, during his talk, Reed said that the commission saw itself as paving the path for divided government. This was striking because at the time the commission was established, there was not divided government, the Democrats controlled the presidency and both houses of Congress by large margins.
Perhaps by the summer, with the polls looking bad for the Dems, divided government seemed a more likely prospect, but it still seems rather presumptuous for a commission of this sort to be planning its actions based on its electoral predictions."

Are Liberals and Democrats going to wait until Obama announces his deal with the GOP on Social Security before they ask him about it? The tax-cuts-for-the-rich deal all over again?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 14, 2011 6:19 PM | Report abuse

Not sure if Greg (or someone else) already linked to this article by Matt Cooper, but it's worthwhile.

------

Palin Knew What She Was Saying
'Blood Libel' comment was likely used to fire up pro-Israel evangelicals
...

After all, it's not the first time Palin has aligned herself subtly with Jews. She has noted that after her election as governor in 2006, her childhood pastor suggested that she take the Bible's Queen Esther as a role model. Esther was a beauty queen who became a fierce protector of the Jewish people. Palin is comfortable in the role of Esther, and many of her evangelical supporters see her in that guise, describing her as Esther-like. The multi-faith website Beliefnet called this phenomenon "Esther-mania."

By adopting the blood libel language, Palin was most likely trying to pull another Esther -- aligning herself with Jews, not denouncing them. It appears to have been a badly miscalculated effort, but it's unlikely that it was her intention to offend.

"It was a dog whistle," said one Jewish Republican who worked in the George H.W. Bush administration and declined to be named to avoid becoming enmeshed in the intraparty debate over Palin. The reference was to a device that's silent to some ears but calls to others. "The media didn't get it, but Christian activists did," this source added.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/palin-knew-what-she-was-saying-20110112

Posted by: suekzoo1 | January 14, 2011 6:22 PM | Report abuse

Steele: "And now, I exit stage right." Promptly exits stage left.
.......................

I knew it; Michael Steele was always a left winger with dyslexia.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 14, 2011 6:22 PM | Report abuse

Heads up- get ready for the incoming on that quote...

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 14, 2011 6:16 PM | Report abuse

Rabid ideas infect ill minds. I can't believe this is even being debated because it is so obvious. It's just not politically correct to say it.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 14, 2011 6:24 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps this is old, but it is a masterful demonstration by a college student of a pathetic budget cutting plan by this admin:

http://wimp.com/budgetcuts/

Posted by: actuator | January 14, 2011 6:31 PM | Report abuse

actuator: "Perhaps this is old, but it is a masterful demonstration by a college student of a pathetic budget cutting plan by this admin."

Now go find a demonstration of the budget cutting plan of the last administration... LOL

Posted by: suekzoo1 | January 14, 2011 6:34 PM | Report abuse

"Now go find a demonstration of the budget cutting plan of the last administration"

Borrowing for two wars off-the-books doesn't count? Dang.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 6:36 PM | Report abuse

Ah, a cute one, just Tweeted: "Take out the vowels in @Reince Priebus' name and you get "RNC PR BS." No lie!"

:lol:
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 6:44 PM | Report abuse

Priapism is a very serious medical condition.

He is very fortunate that his parents did not name him Richard.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 14, 2011 6:49 PM | Report abuse

"* Important reality check from Michael Hirsh: "A number of historians, sociologists, and psychologists believe that a correlation exists between periods of angry or intense political divisions in American history and political violence, particularly killings.""

Ahh, nothing more satisfying than confirming what we all "know" based on, er, our self-selecting opinion.   Whew, Republicans are as evil as I thought.  Narrative was precariously tilting for a bit.  Thank Gaia for "Experts".

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 14, 2011 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Where is Paul Ryan's new Health Care Bill?

He admitted, on TV, that Republican should have reformed health care, when they controlled Congress and the White House.

So, where is your bill now Paul? You Republicans appear to only claim to have Health Care reform ideas, when ever you are out of power.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 14, 2011 6:54 PM | Report abuse

Really. If words had any power at all, you'd see people freaking completely out over Islamic centers being built anywhere in the country.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 6:56 PM | Report abuse

What else?

Brought to you by Barack Obama's likely opponent for the presidency in 2012:

"NJ Gov. Chris Christie wants to end teacher tenure – and he's not alone"

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2011/0114/NJ-Gov.-Chris-Christie-wants-to-end-teacher-tenure-and-he-s-not-alone

Posted by: wbgonne | January 14, 2011 6:56 PM | Report abuse

actuator


http://wimp.com/budgetcuts/

_____________________

Very good A+

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 14, 2011 6:58 PM | Report abuse

"A number of historians, sociologists, and psychologists believe that a correlation exists between periods of angry or intense political divisions in American history and political violence, particularly killings."

This is ridiculous. Have they noticed any relationship between 2+2 and 4?

"...criticism of Sarah Palin as "the latest round of an ongoing pogrom against conservative thinkers."

This is hilarious.

Or vice versa, no both.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 6:59 PM | Report abuse

"And Joe Scarborough is happy to see Rich Lowry and me having a dialog."

You chummy villagers. How long before you and Rich are part of a secretive group of political writers passing each other opinionated emails?

Posted by: bernielatham | January 14, 2011 7:03 PM | Report abuse

"What else?

Brought to you by Barack Obama's likely opponent for the presidency in 2012:

"NJ Gov. Chris Christie wants to end teacher tenure – and he's not alone"

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2011/0114/NJ-Gov.-Chris-Christie-wants-to-end-teacher-tenure-and-he-s-not-alone"

Agreed, our childrens education is far superior because of tenure.  Here is how tenure had made American education the envy of the world...

(let's all add to the list of why tenure has made American education the beat in the world! Wbgonne, you start.). 

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 14, 2011 7:05 PM | Report abuse

I want to end teacher tenure. I want to end all tenure. Tenure is corruption, nothing more.


Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 7:11 PM | Report abuse

At this point, the nation still has to deal with the Urban Rubes who still just don't "get it."

It really is too bad that the liberals have ceased to listen to the voters.

There is common ground out there.


WHY can't the liberals be bipartisan and compromise ????


That is what the American People want.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 14, 2011 7:12 PM | Report abuse

Greg wrote,
More registered voters want the (HCR) law expanded than fully repealed, with the latter category amounting to less than a third. A total of 49 percent want to let it stand or change it so it does more, versus 43 percent who want to scale it back or get rid of it entirely.
-------

fiona's take:

roflol -- that truly is the most laughable thing I have ever read. clue: polls are worthless. you can make people say anything you want just by a change of wording. and not knowing the construction/methodology makes it even more worthless. it's calling 'cherry-picking.'

Posted by: fiona5 | January 14, 2011

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 7:18 PM | Report abuse

What else is happening?

"– Priebus’s law firm sought funds from Obama’s stimulus package: Connecticut GOP chairman Chris Healy noted that Priebus’s Wisconsin law firm helped its clients obtain federal stimulus funds, citing the fact that Priebus’s name was attached to the “Stimulus and Economic Recovery Group.” Priebus immediately responded to the story, claiming he had never worked with his firm’s “Stimulus and Economic Recovery” group."

Posted by: Liam-still | January 14, 2011 7:20 PM | Report abuse

"Tenure is corruption, nothing more."

I thought it was tyranny.

From the article Greg linked:

"Contrary to what the word conjures up, tenure doesn’t mean a lifetime job guarantee for teachers. Laws establishing hearings or other protections against arbitrary firing sprang up state by state in response to problems such as discrimination against women or politically motivated firings. Tenure is really about due-process protections,” says Patrick McGuinn, a political science professor at Drew University in New Jersey who has studied tenure policies, “but over time it’s become so lengthy, complicated, and costly to go through those due-process protections ... that virtually no teachers are fired on the basis of performance.” But while tenure reform enjoys support from both Democrats and Republicans, some observers see such calls as polarizing rhetoric that could ultimately harm efforts to improve education."

Posted by: wbgonne | January 14, 2011 7:24 PM | Report abuse

Alan Grayson made it easy for us -

"The Drop Dead Act."

Posted by: filmnoia | January 14, 2011 4:13 PM
=======

Why don't you take his advice?

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 7:26 PM | Report abuse

From Think Progress:

"After Saying He’ll Skip MLK Day, Maine Tea Party Gov. Paul LePage Tells The NAACP To ‘Kiss My Butt’

Maine’s tea party-backed Gov. Paul LePage (R) has gone from telling President Obama to “go to hell” to telling the NAACP to “kiss my butt,” after the storied civil rights organization criticized LePage for declining invitations to attend events honoring Martin Luther King Day. The NAACP had invited LePage to events in Portland and Bangor, but a spokesman for the governor said he “already has personal and professional commitments scheduled for Monday.” “We don’t want to misinterpret his intention, but the message we’re getting is that we’re not welcome and we’re not part of the Maine he’s preparing to lead,” said local NAACP state director Rachel Talbot Ross. LePage fired back at the group’s chiding, telling WGME News 13 that the NAACP is just a “special interest group” that can “kiss my butt”:"
.............................


.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 14, 2011 7:28 PM | Report abuse

Gabrielle Giffords is having an historical outcome, nowhere near as bizarre as Phineas Gage, but perhaps even better. I can't believe it. It is barely comprehensible. The more you know about these these things the harder it is to understand.

A few days ago when someone said she'd be a vegetable, I said she will not only walk and talk, she will likely have a happy life, but it was a cheery guess, I have to admit. She will be *different*, that can not be changed.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 7:32 PM | Report abuse

"Sen. Mike Lee Calls Child Labor Laws Unconstitutional

Last week, Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) posted a lecture on his YouTube channel where he explains in great detail his views on the Constitution. As part of the lecture, which is essentially a lengthy defense of his radical tenther interpretation of the Constitution, Lee claims that federal child labor laws are unconstitutional:"

Posted by: Liam-still | January 14, 2011 7:33 PM | Report abuse

Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history (Ike).

Love to hear what our conservative commenters here would say to ol' Ike.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 14, 2011
-------

Didn't take long to get from reloading on HCR to abolishing Social Security and Unemployment Insurance. I thought some people were at 99 weeks on Unemployment; sounds a far cry from being abolished.

Farm programs and labor laws must be taken in different context than when Ike was around. Farm programs became ways for investors to buy up farm land and have the government pay them for not farming it. You don't hear a lot from liberals or conservatives when it comes to enforcing labor laws where illegal immigrants are concerned---but that would be a good place to start.

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 7:35 PM | Report abuse

From Politicalwire.com

"Quote of the Day
"What corporation changes the head when you've just had the biggest win? It's insane."

-- Rhode Island RNC member Joseph Trillo, seconding the nomination of Michael Steele for another term as RNC Chairman. "

Posted by: Liam-still | January 14, 2011 7:37 PM | Report abuse

Suekzoo1, I always considered Bush unfavorably re his attitude toward government spending and growth. I think he tried to present himself in the image of Reagan when, more like Nixon, he wasn't a real fiscal conservative.

jprestonian, read a book called Magic and Mayhem. It is a pretty good analysis (maybe arm chair QB) of the lousy judgment our leaders have made in foreign policy and military application starting with JFK through the present. Our leadership, or lack thereof, has and continues to cost us dearly in money, lives and our national reputation in the rest of the world.

Posted by: actuator | January 14, 2011 7:37 PM | Report abuse

shrink2:
""Gabrielle Giffords is having an historical outcome, nowhere near as bizarre as Phineas Gage, but perhaps even better.""
Good Lard, let us hope so. Ol' Phineas didn't fare so well, IIRC, even though he lived for a time after the horrendous accident.

I hope the li'l model Vespa I'm sending will be of some inspiration.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 7:38 PM | Report abuse

What if doctors and nurses had tenure (and some do)? The health professions would be stacked with lethally incompetent people drawing massive salaries, paid to do nothing, just to keep them away from the people who can and do the right thing.

"Tenure is really about due-process protections,” says Patrick McGuinn, a political science professor at Drew University in New Jersey who has studied tenure policies, “but over time it’s become so lengthy, complicated, and costly to go through those due-process protections ... that virtually no teachers are fired on the basis of performance.”

Yes, that is true. Every worker needs due process protections, That has nothing to do with what we now call tenure.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 7:46 PM | Report abuse

"From Politicalwire.com

"Quote of the Day
"What corporation changes the head when you've just had the biggest win? It's insane."

-- Rhode Island RNC member Joseph Trillo, seconding the nomination of Michael Steele for another term as RNC Chairman. ""

But, didn't we put him in there in the first place is 'cause were racist and wanted to fool the rubes into thinking we're all inclusive 'n stuff?  Question is, what's more racist?  Putting him in as window dressing?  Or firing him because he's window dressing?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 14, 2011 7:49 PM | Report abuse

"(let's all add to the list of why tenure has made American education the beat in the world! Wbgonne, you start.). Posted by: TrollMcWingnut"

I'll start.

Tenure doesn't protect poor or outright incompetent teachers. Lazy School Boards, who can't take the time or put out the effort to do it right protect bad teachers.

Tenure protects good and great teachers.

Like the Tenured English Teacher in Covington Ohio who assigned his students the task of writing a short analysis of what they would demand if Satan offered to buy their souls, and gave those who objected the option of substituting some body part for soul.

One or two Parents complained, and would have fired him EXCEPT that he had Tenure. He was very good at getting his kids to qwrite at least competently, if not particularly originally.

Good teachers challenge students to grow, and some students and some parents find this so objectionable that they want those teachers fired. Tenure prevents that, and thereby helps make excellence in teaching possible, where lack of Tenure makes excellence extremely risky.

Posted by: ceflynline | January 14, 2011 7:56 PM | Report abuse

"A number of historians, sociologists, and psychologists believe that a correlation exists between periods of angry or intense political divisions in American history and political violence, particularly killings."

This is ridiculous. Have they noticed any relationship between 2+2 and 4?

"...criticism of Sarah Palin as "the latest round of an ongoing pogrom against conservative thinkers."

This is hilarious.

Or vice versa, no both.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 6:59 PM
====================================

Your oft-repeated message that crazy is often just simply crazy does not seem to be resonating. Let's try this:

This is a free country and we're not interested in sacrificing our liberties in the interest of safe-guarding politicians. After a couple of minutes, we're going to realize that nothing is going to change. Politicians will continue to "target" opponents, use incendiary language to roil the base and all of the other things they've been doing since the founding of the Republic.

Okay, so some liberals have spent the last week maliciously and falsely accusing Sarah Palin, after they had declared weeks earlier that she was no longer a threat for national office. So what was the point? To see how far one can push the envelope before libel becomes the issue?

Policemen get shot; convenience store clerks get shot; and every once in a great while a politician gets shot. As for the innocents, just pick up the daily papers---it happens all the time. We can argue about what sort of regulations on firearms the country is willing to accept---okay, stop selling to certified nutters and don't allow nukes in the hands of anyone under 25---but the second amendment will continue to permit gun ownership; states will continue to issue permits to carry; and the first amendment will continue to protect the peoples' right to engage in the sort of fiery rhetoric we frequently see here at PL.

Nothing's going to change. Listen to shrink2 and get over it. If you're a politician, there's evidently a certain amount of danger involved with your profession, however minimal. Avoid the danger by finding another profession, not by fussing about rights guaranteed by the constitution.

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 7:57 PM | Report abuse

TrollMcWingnut: ""But, didn't we put him in there in the first place is 'cause were racist and wanted to fool the rubes into thinking we're all inclusive 'n stuff?""Cute, but really, I don't know how anyone could not look at Steele's tenure (there's that word, again), and not laugh hysterically, regardless of on which side of the political aisle one resides.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 8:01 PM | Report abuse

Quoting Andrew Sullivan...

"A very shrewd post from Greg Sargent."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/the-president-and-the-right.html

Posted by: bernielatham | January 14, 2011 8:05 PM | Report abuse

"Good teachers challenge students to grow, and some students and some parents find this so objectionable that they want those teachers fired. Tenure prevents that, and thereby helps make excellence in teaching possible, where lack of Tenure makes excellence extremely risky."

This is true for all professions that depend upon the people who get it teaching the people who don't, airline pilots, surgeons, dance choreographers. Where did this tenure for class room teachers come from? Don't bother, I know. Now it is just like when love is a ball and chain.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 8:07 PM | Report abuse

Jeez....Wikileaks and Tunisia

" The truth is: this is a major, er, coup for Wikileaks and the transparency it promotes - especially against tyrants like Ben Ali."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/the-president-and-the-right.html

Posted by: bernielatham | January 14, 2011 8:08 PM | Report abuse

I don't know how anyone could not look at Steele's tenure (there's that word, again), and not laugh hysterically, regardless of on which side of the political aisle one resides.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 8:01 PM
---------

The part that really makes me laugh is the drubbing Dems took in the November election. I guess I hadn't noticed those on the Dem side of the aisle "laugh hysterically".

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 8:15 PM | Report abuse

"Quoting Andrew Sullivan...

"A very shrewd post from Greg Sargent."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/the-president-and-the-right.html". 

Why, has he peeled another layer away from "The Great Who Birthed Trig Palin" conspiracy?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 14, 2011 8:17 PM | Report abuse

jprestonian, do you have any idea?

"Good Lard, let us hope so. Ol' Phineas didn't fare so well",

An object enters one side of your head and goes out the other side. Have you any experience with this, with traumatic brain injury? If you don't, don't talk. This is really special.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 8:22 PM | Report abuse

"Good teachers challenge students to grow, and some students and some parents find this so objectionable that they want those teachers fired. Tenure prevents that, and thereby helps make excellence in teaching possible, where lack of Tenure makes excellence extremely risky."

Okay, in what educational categories do American children lead the industrialized world?

I'll start: Self-Esteem.

Who's next?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 14, 2011 8:24 PM | Report abuse

shrink2: ""If you don't, don't talk."" Say what?
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 8:25 PM | Report abuse

@Brigade: The part that really makes me laugh is the drubbing Dems took in the November election. I guess I hadn't noticed those on the Dem side of the aisle "laugh hysterically".

Are you disputing that Steele was the best RNC chair EVAH (for dems)?

If he did such a bang up job as RNC Chair, why didn't republicans support him for reelection?

Either he was effective and Republicans are too (fill in the blank, stupid, parochial, racist, meanspirited, etc.) to reelect him OR
he really was the worst RNC chair in recent history and the victories in November were in spite of him.

Take your pick...You can't have it both ways.

Posted by: srw3 | January 14, 2011 8:28 PM | Report abuse

TrollMcWingnut: ""Okay, in what educational categories do American children lead the industrialized world?"" This is obviously because we allow in this free country for teachers to organize and demand to make $40K/year + bennies, of course. The countries that exceed us in educational excellence do not allow this.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 8:30 PM | Report abuse

I wonder how many of you tenure bashers have taught at an urban, public school?

In fact, most of the countries that are exalted as far superior than the US have teachers unions and worker protections against firing that dwarf the US.

Posted by: srw3 | January 14, 2011 8:31 PM | Report abuse

"Say what?"

It is a fυcking miracle.
Is that ok with you?
This does not happen.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 8:34 PM | Report abuse

shrink2: ""Is that ok with you?"" I am amazed and very happy that she is recovering in a seemingly (yes!) miraculous fashion. What did I say that made you think otherwise?

Maybe my mention of sending her the model Vespa...? *boggle*
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 8:38 PM | Report abuse

"caps a really low week for the right."

-- caps a really surreal (see what I did there?) week for Greg Sargent and the left.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 14, 2011 8:38 PM | Report abuse

"In fact, most of the countries that are exalted as far superior than the US have teachers unions and worker protections against firing that dwarf the US."

Those are little socialist countries. I am all for big country socialism. I am not for America's corrupt tenure system. It is not working, it is bad for kids, it isn't working.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 8:39 PM | Report abuse

Sorry jpres, I just thought, never mind, I'm sorry, no worries.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 8:45 PM | Report abuse

As I've mentioned before, I'm a paid "Rove" operative.  Pretty high up too, if I may "toot" (no offense meant bernie) my own horn.  My job is twofold, first it's to "disrupt" the normal flow of high level discourse here and, as a result, "slow-down" the transfer of great policy ideas generated here to our elected politicians. We've been pretty effective.  No "public option", a health care bill that's essentially an "Insurance Company Enrichment Act", no real "teeth" in finance reform, Dream Act turned into a "nightmare.". Of course, we toss out the occasional victory, to keep things from seeming to "one-sided.". For example, repeal of DADT and the Federal appropriation "of" the student loan Industry.

The second part of my job is to embed code that only "crazy people" can "decipher" that will spur them to commit acts of political violence. Each one of my comments tonight has embedded in it directions for a specific act "of" political violence. Some here are getting pretty close to "figuring" it out.  In fact, I promise to assign the winner to an internment camp "close" to their loved "ones.". 

Bernie, wg, Ethan (if you haven't "Troll Blocked" me yet [thanks a lot Kevin]), Liam and cao, what are the "specific" acts of political violence I embedded "in" my comments?  Fiona, you're obviously eligible as well.  You 6 have demonstrated the appropriate "talent" for discovering our messages.  "Good luck."

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 14, 2011 8:53 PM | Report abuse

Either he was effective and Republicans are too (fill in the blank, stupid, parochial, racist, meanspirited, etc.) to reelect him OR
he really was the worst RNC chair in recent history and the victories in November were in spite of him.

Take your pick...You can't have it both ways.

Posted by: srw3 | January 14, 2011 8:28 PM
-------

Of course I can have it both ways. I think he was only one vote short on the first ballot, so you can't really say he was universally rejected. I can't think of a much better benchmark than the November victories, but Republicans realize Steele isn't perfect and he's made some mistakes. They evidently think they can do better. If you're a Dem, you'd better hope they're wrong.

If Obama decides to play footsie with Republicans in 2011, don't be surprised to see him get a primary challenge in 2012. I'll leave it for you to decide whether such a challenge would mean people like wbgonne are "fill in the blank, stupid, parochial, racist, meanspirited, etc.".

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 8:55 PM | Report abuse

TrollMc: ""As I've mentioned before, I'm a paid "Rove" operative."" My leg -- you are pulling it! :lol:
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 8:56 PM | Report abuse

You can fire bad teachers. A school district just East of Columbus did a couple years ago, for trying to turn the Science classroom he was supposed to be teaching into a Creationist bastion. Even the Columbus Dispatch applauded his firing.

As to First Class education, this country still leads the world in cutting edge research in most fields. Those fabulous Asian Tigers fare quite poorly in cutting edge stuff as they tend to try to cram original thinkers like Uda and Yukawa and Yagi into their establishment molds and succeed quite often. When you hear of a great Asian Scientist he is somewhere in the west, like as not in the U.S. or Canada.

Japan and China are tech leaders in using American theoretical advances and cutting edge technologies to mass produce geegaws loaded with features nobody can use. But the radios and Boom Boxes and Computers were invented here and developed here and then farmed out to Asian tech farms where the Asian Companies brag about the newest chrome filigree they added to make it all pretty.

The whole Asian microelectronics industry was a gift from Phillips and NCR and Magnavox.

Posted by: ceflynline | January 14, 2011 9:12 PM | Report abuse

cef, that is all true. I am saying we can do better without being Republicans. Teachers are everything to America. They are more important than doctors and lawyers, because they create doctors and lawyers. They are more important than soldiers, more important than entrepreneurs, more important than the clergy (no lightning bolts are forecast so if I am incinerated you'll have your proof), but tenure is broken. It is broken in the same way that "managed health care" is broken. I am a socialist, I want public schools to be more than they are. I still think teacher tenure is a big problem.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Shrink I'm agreed totally with your views on education. If teachers were treated the same as they are in Finland and Korea..two systems currently topping ours...where teachers earn a similar salary as attorneys, and other professionals...OMG sorry Q.B. a nation that values teachers as much as attorneys...we wouldn't have these tenure problems because we draw enough good folks to the profession that the dullards and slackers are basically run off.

On the tenure question I'm with shrink...I'm not obsessed with it like some on the right...but there is no doubt it needs some serious tightening up to where it is back to where it started...simply a mechanism for due process.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 14, 2011 10:00 PM | Report abuse

Rand Paul, Frenchy DeMint, and Mike Lee have formed a Senate Tea Party caucus.

(pausing until the laughter dies down)

Its mission: stop earmarks and add a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution..

(longer pause)

Yeah, earmarks, now there's a supremely vital issue. As central to budget woes as bathroom night lights are to global warming.

And I ask you ... who is going to trust these hicks with a Constitutional Convention? By law its agenda is unconstrained, I wonder what kind of bizarro country we'd have when they emerged?

And even so, a balanced budget law would take about a year to backfire.

Paul is off to a running start.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 10:02 PM | Report abuse

@Kevin: iCab crashes on TH activation. Consistently.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 10:15 PM | Report abuse

Brig - He was 30+ votes short on the first ballot. It takes 85 votes to be elected, not a plurality. Many of those votes were clearly pro forma as his delegates started peeling away following the first vote.

As for a primary challenge, that's a conservative fantasy. There's not a single serious candidate who's declared interest in that. Plus, everyone knows what happens when you knock down a sitting president of your party.

Buchanan went after Bush 41 on the tax issue. Kennedy after Carter because, well, I'm not sure on that. I was a teenager at the time.

I didn't see anyone going after Bush 43 because of No Child or Medicare Part D, both of which were significant expansions of federal power. Not to mention intrusions into privacy following 9/11. Where were all the freedom loving conservatives then?

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 14, 2011 10:16 PM | Report abuse

CNBC is running a show on Enron right now

Quite remarkable how everyone just went along with the scams. I say scams, because once people decided to keep quite and go along, Enron became one scam after another until it was a complete disaster.

This sounds like today's democratic party. Everyone knows that Obama is unqualified and inexperienced. Everyone knows the stimulus did not work.

The Stimulus diverted billions of dollars from job creation to democratic special interests.

Everyone knows that Obama's health care plan is just one massive deficit waiting to happen. And yet, NO ONE in the democratic party, including the Journo-list crowd, wants to say one word - for fear of tipping over the House of Cards.


It is a failure. It is a failure of leadership. But it is also a moral failure.


Somehow, today's liberals justify EVERY immoral idea they have - because the democrats somehow believe they are owed something because of the Florida recount and Iraq.


NO AMOUNT of money is wrong to waste - because Bush spent money on Iraq.


NO AMOUNT of immoral activity is wrong because the democrats were not happy with the Florida recount.


It is a MORAL FAILURE.


The democrats have not been HONEST with the American People - in almost every discussion, liberals refuse to admit that Obama has done a horrible job.


The democrats followed Obama off the plank with health care - the democrats somehow believed everything that Obama was saying - that they could pass health care and then win the election.


THAT did not happen. Obama betrayed the democrats who listened to him.

And in a strange way, instead of cleaning house, the nation was treated to a "mini-health care episode" in the lame duck session. The democrats HAD to pass something again AGAINST the will of the American People.


The democrats have to START by ADMITTING they made a horrible mistake by disregarding Obama's lack of experience and qualifications. That was an AFFIRMATIVE ACTION MASS FAILURE OF JUDGEMENT.


Affirmative Action has FAILED.


Obama has FAILED.


The only thing left is to try to put all of this behind us and SAVE as much of the economy as we can.


Obama should resign immediately.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 14, 2011 10:19 PM | Report abuse

Go to sleep, Hoya. Nobody's listening.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 14, 2011 10:22 PM | Report abuse

Cao

I want everyone to know that you really do not care about the future of the United States - you have left.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 14, 2011 10:29 PM | Report abuse

I didn't see anyone going after Bush 43 because of No Child or Medicare Part D, both of which were significant expansions of federal power. Not to mention intrusions into privacy following 9/11. Where were all the freedom loving conservatives then?

==

And where was the Tea Party when Bush started two wars on borrowed money just for the fun of it? Where were the deficit hawks then?

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 10:29 PM | Report abuse

An Economic Crisis is no time for an AFFIRMATIVE ACTION EXPERIMENT WITH THE GOVERNMENT.


The attitude seems to be: let's take any guy, practically off the street, and see if he can run the country just as well as an old white man with 2 decades experience.


WELL, guess what Sherlock???


________________________

Obama has a $1.3 Trillion deficit.


What a disaster. And as EVERYONE has been attempting to tell the democrats, Bill Clinton's economic policies led to today's crisis.


So, to look to Clinton's adminstration for ANSWERS to today's problems - that administration CAUSED TODAY'S ECONOMIC CRISIS.


________________________


Bill Clinton

The Question was relevance. The very act of trying to find relevance is what led to THE TERRIBLE ECONOMIC POLICIES OF BILL CLINTON.

Bill Clinton basically CAVED into Wall Street on derivatives and the Glass Steagall Act -


WHY ? because Bill Clinton wanted to do SOMETHING. Congress had blocked him - and Bill Clinton wanted to do something.


_______________________

THAT is precisely the DANGER right now - Obama is going to be searching for SOMETHING he can do - SOMETHING he can accomplish.


Because, already Obama has blown it, Obama lost his majorities in Congress.

So the ONLY thing left is to CAVE IN AND TRY TO CLAIM IT WAS A BIG ACCOMPLISHMENT


__________________________


This is the time when the American People can really get horrendous policy.


Obama is looking for SOMETHING - he takes what he can. He takes whatever he can claim to others OR simply to himself is an accomplishment.


At some point, Obama is going to realize that he might be a one-termer, or realize that it is a real possibility

Obama is going to want to do SOMETHING, just in case he is a one-termer. He is going to want to build some contingency just in case.


Let's face it, health care gets repealed and Obama is left with ZERO in accomplishments.


Obama is going to want to add SOMETHING TO THAT, and the American People should be careful - this is a dangerous period when the SELL-OUTS HAPPEN.


,

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 14, 2011 10:39 PM | Report abuse

"Joe Klein wonders whether the Arizona shooting is enough to get Americans to rethink their right to bear assault weapons."


Why don't constitutional originalists limit the right to bear arms to flintlock rifles?


.

Posted by: bsimon1 | January 14, 2011 10:41 PM | Report abuse

BB, who or what is Hoya?

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 10:43 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps we should rethink the parts of the Constitution which liberals love.


The 14th Amendment comes to mind.


How about all the parts of the Bill of Rights which the liberals like - never hear anyone saying those provisions should be revised.


And

We never hear about enforcing the 10th Amendment - it is sitting there with EQUAL STANDING with all the other parts of the Bill of Rights.

Liberals are real jokers.


They really are - I just can't believe they can't think one response past the non-sense they are pushing. The liberals DO NOT have any response to first response.


The KEY, of course, is the Constitution is a balance of principles.


The liberals CONSTANTLY want to destroy one side of the scale - they want unbalance - the liberals want to DE-BALANCE our society.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 14, 2011 10:47 PM | Report abuse

If America can't face and deal with something as plainly wrong and out of control as automatic weapons in the hands of violent mentally ill people and the staggering gun-related murder rate then we probably can't deal with anything anymore.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 10:49 PM | Report abuse

"And where was the Tea Party when Bush started two wars on borrowed money just for the fun of it? Where were the deficit hawks then?"

Wasn't 9/11 the pretext, at least for Afghanistan? I mean, I'm sure Iraq involved daddy issues, but I thought Afghanistan was about a natural gas pipeline, no?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 14, 2011 10:49 PM | Report abuse

cao: ""plainly wrong and out of control as automatic weapons"" Sorry.

Gotta stop you there.

As a proud, gun-owning liberal, I have to tell you that not getting this important terminology correct drives the gun-nutters INSANE.

The Glock pistol: SEMI-auto.

Thank you for your support.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 10:57 PM | Report abuse

Find somebody else to needle with this kind of snark, Troll, I'm too old for this sh*t.

If you cut out the sarcasm and the snark and the baiting and the attacks, conservatives here post almost nothing at all.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 11:02 PM | Report abuse

jprestonian - I think most people unfamiliar with firearms don't hear the 'semi;' just the AUTOMATIC. Having said that, I want to say it took us about 10 sec to empty a 30 rd clip in a ruger .22 rifle, back in the day; circa 1987.

What's the standard clip size for an M-16?

Posted by: bsimon1 | January 14, 2011 11:04 PM | Report abuse

bsimon1: ""What's the standard clip size for an M-16?"" Dunno.

What I **do** know is that this one loon in Tucson would have had a lot harder time finding more than 10-round magazines for his Glock had the Assault Weapons Ban not been allowed to expire back in... what, 2003, 2004?

31-round clips are only valid for people who have a credible threat of having their homes invaded by a dozen+ ninjas, sorry. You ain't gonna hold off anyone army with 'em, that I can tell ya.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 14, 2011 11:08 PM | Report abuse

"Wasn't 9/11 the pretext, at least for Afghanistan?"

the point was funding, not pretext. why cut taxes when you're increasing spending?

Don't make no sense to me.

How 'bout you?

.

Posted by: bsimon1 | January 14, 2011 11:12 PM | Report abuse

"Find somebody else to needle with this kind of snark, Troll, I'm too old for this sh*t.

If you cut out the sarcasm and the snark and the baiting and the attacks, conservatives here post almost nothing at all."

Would it be better to follow your example, vis a vis tone?

You wrote that Bush started the two wars for the "joy of it", and I was trying to get clarification. If that caused offense, I apologize. I thought, based on your earlier comments, that Bush caused 9/11 as a pretext to invade Afghanistan?

Hope all is well with you, my friend. :-)

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | January 14, 2011 11:15 PM | Report abuse

Huckabee's going to Alaska.

""empower God's army against the onslaught of the Enemy""

Hmmmmmmmm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"From June 5 to June 12, he'll be aboard the Sapphire Princess on an "Alaska Freedom Cruise," stopping at Ketchikan, Tracy Arm Fjord, Juneau and Skagway.

"It took more time than I thought to work out all the details," gospel-music promoter Frank Arnold wrote in announcing the trip, "but it definitely worth the wait." "Not only is there an incredible lineup of Christian artists," he said, "but our guest host for the entire cruise" is Huckabee.

Explaining the rationale for his "Paradise Tours and Travel" company, Arnold wrote:

"It's no secret that The Church is getting attacked on a daily basis by the Secular Progressive Movement. And as Christians, we know that it has to happen for prophesy to be fulfilled. At Paradise Tours and Travel, our passion is to educate and empower God's army against the onslaught of the Enemy."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/14/huckabee-palin-2012_n_809115.html

Posted by: lmsinca | January 14, 2011 11:15 PM | Report abuse

ceflyinline: "You can fire bad teachers. A school district just East of Columbus did a couple years ago, for trying to turn the Science classroom he was supposed to be teaching into a Creationist bastion. Even the Columbus Dispatch applauded his firing."

If you are referring to John Freshwater, firing him him took two years. The case pending against him since 2008 was just settled this week. Frankly, I can't fathom why it took so long, and not so much because of his creationism teachings, but because he burned crosses on the arms of two students with an electrical device. Why that wasn't grounds for immediate dismissal is beyond me.

Posted by: suekzoo1 | January 14, 2011 11:20 PM | Report abuse

I remember a few months ago talking around here about Ronald Reagan's disease and posting the latter part of his debate with Mondale as an example, an example of how a President with dementia yadda yadda. I think I was allowed to post to the boodle at that time, I forget (!). Maybe it was on some other post it board...

Anyway,

'Ronald Reagan who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease five years after leaving office, showed signs of the condition while still in the White House, his son says in a new memoir.

In the book, "My Father at 100, a Memoir," Ron Reagan writes he had an inkling of trouble three years into his father's first term...
Later, watching his father debate 1984 Democratic presidential nominee Walter Mondale,..'

Heck yeah. It was the story about driving down the 101. Made no sense at all. We call it confabulation.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 11:25 PM | Report abuse

Cao

If ONE person in that crowd was carrying a gun, the incident would not have been NEARLY AS BAD


Never hear a liberal say THAT, do you??


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 14, 2011 11:26 PM | Report abuse

Gip gutted Mondale that night.

hmmm

{{{giggle}}}

Posted by: tao9 | January 14, 2011 11:31 PM | Report abuse

**test

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 14, 2011 11:33 PM | Report abuse

In related news: Amy Carter remarks that her father retains 100% of the intellectual firepower he possessed in 1978.

{{{snorfchortle}}}

Posted by: tao9 | January 14, 2011 11:35 PM | Report abuse

Confabulation is an amazing thing, especially in the mind of an actor. Peter Sellers. Chance.
Being There.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 11:38 PM | Report abuse

I saw that first Reagan Mondale debate. It arouse an intensely protective sympathy toward Reagan for about two weeks. He was clearly losing his marbles.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 11:38 PM | Report abuse

claw, there are no TH instructions.

Kevin sure can write it, but teaching is another thing, as we've discussed. Would you like a primer?

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 11:42 PM | Report abuse

RainForestRising, I've heard that someone who was there may have been carrying a concealed weapon but decided not draw because of the confusion and crowd running around, instead helping to detain the killer for the police. Sounds like he had proper training. If one of the murder victims had been armed, however, they may have been able to shoot back. Even trained peace officers accidentally hit innocent bystanders.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 14, 2011 11:43 PM | Report abuse

""shrink2, no thanks.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 14, 2011 11:47 PM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade wrote,
"As for a primary challenge, that's a conservative fantasy. There's not a single serious candidate who's declared interest in that. Plus, everyone knows what happens when you knock down a sitting president of your party."
-------

I didn't say anything about a "serious candidate" nor did I suggest the effort would be successful. If you don't think some on the left will become increasingingly frustrated if, as I suggested, Obama snubs them and plays footsie with the Republicans---to feather his own nest---then you haven't been listening to people like wbgonne.

The "conservative fantasy" would be a third candidate in the general to peel away a few percentage points. A primary challenge wouldn't matter much if Hillary v. Obama is any indication; they buried the hatchet very quickly.

I was simply following up on another poster's logic---that to challenge the incumbent must necessarily involve racism or stupidity. And I am not as confident as you that there won't be some sort of a primary challenge if Obama triangulates, the economy remains sour, and his approval rating is in the low 40s when 2012 rolls around.

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 11:48 PM | Report abuse

Ex-president Carter: involved in humanitarian projects around the world.

Ex-president Bush: trying to justify his mistakes and recast his failures.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 11:52 PM | Report abuse

Then in the second debate I was worried about this...

"...We shouldn't be dwelling on the past, or even the present.

[Uh Oh! dwelling in the present?! pause, then he saved it, sort of]

The meaning of this election is the future and whether we're going to grow and provide the jobs and the opportunities for all Americans and that they need.

[phew, talking points don't change]

Several years ago, I was given an assignment to write a letter...

[Oh no, oh no...]

It was to go into a time capsule and would be read in 100 years when that time capsule was opened.

I remember driving down the California coast one day..."

And then he just kind of...lost it.

Later on...

"George Bush, who I think is one of the finest Vice Presidents this country has ever had -- George Bush and I have crisscrossed the country, and we've had, in these last few months, a wonderful experience. We have met young America. We have met your sons and daughters.

MR. NEWMAN: Mr. President, I'm obliged to cut you off there under the rules of the debate. I'm sorry.

THE PRESIDENT: All right. I was just going to -- --

MR. NEWMAN: Perhaps I should point out that the rules under which I did that were agreed upon by the two campaigns

Posted by: shrink2 | January 14, 2011 11:53 PM | Report abuse

If America can't face and deal with something as plainly wrong and out of control as automatic weapons in the hands of violent mentally ill people and the staggering gun-related murder rate then we probably can't deal with anything anymore.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 10:49 PM
-------

Who's "we", bozo? Did you forget where you're at?

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 11:53 PM | Report abuse

Well, jeeze, couldn't they have waited until I'd died and gone to heaven before they changed the astrological signs. I've been an Aries for 60 years and now I have to figure out what the heck a Pisces is and act accordingly.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/01/13/horoscope-hang-up-earth-rotation-changes-zodiac-signs/

Posted by: lmsinca | January 14, 2011 11:54 PM | Report abuse

Before Ted Kennedy ran against Jimmy Carter in 1980, there was no single serious candidate who declared interest in that either. My best guess who it would be this time around is Howard Dean. He's stated multiple times that he doesn't want to run against the incumbent.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 14, 2011 11:54 PM | Report abuse


"In the book, "My Father at 100, a Memoir," Ron Reagan writes he had an inkling of trouble three years into his father's first term...
Later, watching his father debate 1984 Democratic presidential nominee Walter Mondale,..'"

===============================

Ron Reagan? LOL. I think I'd want a second opinion from someone else in the family.

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 11:56 PM | Report abuse

Ex-president Carter: involved in humanitarian projects around the world.

Ex-president Bush: trying to justify his mistakes and recast his failures.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 11:52 PM
===================================

Shrink2, you might want to share with the commie what your man McCarthy had to say about Carter.

Posted by: Brigade | January 14, 2011 11:58 PM | Report abuse

In related news: Amy Carter remarks that her father retains 100% of the intellectual firepower he possessed in 1978.

{{{snorfchortle}}}

Posted by: tao9 | January 14, 2011 11:35 PM
------------------

Which was about 90% of the intellectual firepower of Ronald Reagan even in his addled state in the months leading up to his death. As I recall, Amy was one of Carter's chief foreign policy advisors.

Posted by: Brigade | January 15, 2011 12:03 AM | Report abuse

4 guys that can't stand (very close to) the solipsistic geriatric gong:

http://yubanet.com/uploads/3/5_Living_US_Presidents_1-09.jpg

Posted by: tao9 | January 15, 2011 12:05 AM | Report abuse

Where's Liam tonight?

I suppose Ruby's out doing what Liam's home doing without---or was it Glenn?

Posted by: Brigade | January 15, 2011 12:08 AM | Report abuse

I won't be surprised if Gabrielle Giffords has lost some marbles. A bullet goes right through her brain and she still has all that she has already shown she has. It is fantastic. In about 90 days she'll have about 90% of all that she'll have, but at this rate...it is just spectacular.

GG won't be aok, but if she pretends she is, everyone will forgive her.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 15, 2011 12:19 AM | Report abuse

Prayers work.

And gifted doctors.

And dedicated shrinks. Thnx s2.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A. Einstein

Posted by: tao9 | January 15, 2011 12:28 AM | Report abuse

Worth learning about Einstein's life post-GR (1916), tao9.

He was a great foil for the luminaries of quantum mechanics (and cost Bohr many nights of sleep) because his predilection toward matters of faith and determinism wouldn't let him accept the truth and he ended up on the wrong side of the schism created by Heisenberg's Uncertanty Principle. In fact, many physicists and historians of science regard Einstein as a many who wasted the last 30 years of his career chasing rainbows. Der Hergott werfehlt nicht, he wrote, but he could accept das Der Herrgott auch existiert nicht.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 12:39 AM | Report abuse

Rep. Giffords (D-AZ) won't be casting votes anytime soon.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 15, 2011 12:47 AM | Report abuse

"...chasing rainbows..."

Perhaps he had an appreciation of beauty somewhat more developed than the pale grey quants.

Posted by: tao9 | January 15, 2011 12:47 AM | Report abuse

claw: ""Rep. Giffords (D-AZ) won't be casting votes anytime soon."" Try to contain your glee... even though she's just as likely to vote with the majority, y'know.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 15, 2011 12:49 AM | Report abuse

jprestonian, that's not "glee". It's a medical fact that 90% of massive brain injuries like this result in death, and the remaining 10% plateau in their recovery at 90 days. I am wishing her the very best.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 15, 2011 12:58 AM | Report abuse

Doesn't change the fact that he was wrong, tao.

The objections he came up with to QM were brilliant, it's worth your time to read about the Solvay conferences and you can't do a lot better than "Faust in Copenhagen" for a review of the issue. Recommended reading.

But .. QM stands out as the most successful theory in the history of science, when given Bell's Inequality as a test metric it's survived tests out to literally hundreds of standard deviations. And Einstein couldn't accept it because his faith wouldn't allow him to accept indeterminacy.

It's not the beautiful rainbows, tao, it's that pot of gold at the end. Rainbows are illusions, you know, there is nothing in the sky, the color is your eyes.

In 1905 Einstein wrote three papers, each of them pivotal, each alone enough to memorialize him, and eleven years later he published GR, whose importance can't be overstated. But that was about it.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 12:58 AM | Report abuse

claw: ""Rep. Giffords (D-AZ) won't be casting votes anytime soon."" Try to contain your glee...

==

Same old Jake. Tasteless as ever.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 1:07 AM | Report abuse

I'm very glad to have been wrong about Giffords' recovery. But shrink, the bullet went through her cerebral cortex. Unilaterally, if I've heard correctly, but her deficits are probably going to be pretty bad.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 1:16 AM | Report abuse

I'm very glad to have been wrong about Giffords' recovery. But shrink, the bullet went through her cerebral cortex. Unilaterally, if I've heard correctly, but her deficits are probably going to be pretty bad.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 1:16 AM | Report abuse

About a dozen polls indicate America wants Obamacare repealed and Sarge Greg finds one measely poll that says it ain't so.

Now that's fair and balanced!!

The Democrat, media lickspittles are obsessed with Sarah Palin, there's no doubt. They are doing Republicans a favor by assuring that Palin will not be a contender in 2012 as she could not beat the Bamster.

Now maybe Republicans will find a solid citizen that can beat B.O.

It shouldn't be very difficult.

Posted by: battleground51 | January 15, 2011 2:08 AM | Report abuse

Details matter, rattlegourd.

More people want it extended than want it repealed.

Republicans can come up with a presidential candidate who can bear Obama? First they need to come up with a candidate, period. Not looking good. Not at all.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 2:39 AM | Report abuse

And it isn't The Media nor is it The Left that deep-sixed Palin, she did that all on her oddy-knocky. She did it when she resigned her post with that incoherent lame copout about dead fish. And she's dug herself deeper every time she's had a chance to show any improvement. Her endless litany of grievances and wrongs done her seasoned with that dumb religious stuff.

And she was your best shot.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 3:56 AM | Report abuse

Tea Party knuckle walker from Utah says prohibiting child labor is unconstitutional. What, Joe Miller wasn't already crazy enough with the word? Oh it just keeps getting better.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 4:20 AM | Report abuse

"Tea Party knuckle walker from Utah says prohibiting child labor is unconstitutional. What, Joe Miller wasn't already crazy enough with the word? Oh it just keeps getting better. "

It'll be kind of fun to see the Conservatives on here try and defend all the Conservative Things that will be said by the new nutjobs in Congress.

Well, might as well start with this one. Go on, start defending child labor.

Posted by: DDAWD | January 15, 2011 6:14 AM | Report abuse

It's depriving the young of opportunities to create wealth (for others).

It's distorting the marketplace.

The marketplace should decide whether or not children should be maimed operating dangerous machinery.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 6:42 AM | Report abuse

"OMG sorry Q.B. a nation that values teachers as much as attorneys..."

Horrors.

Our nation doesn't decide the value of teachers or attorneys. That horrible, nasty supply and demand do, for the most part. Tenure is certainly a distorting influence (and a terrible feature). Our public HS has some great teachers, and a few tenured and truly awful ones who have no business being there and are as lazy as they can be.

It's easier to become and be a teacher than an attorney -- at least of my sort. Don't mean to offend teachers, but it just is. The clients we work for apparently figure that the huge amounts of money we help them make or keep are valuable.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 6:54 AM | Report abuse

The article Greg linked noted that there is widespread agreement that tenure must be reformed. But that is a far cry from what Christie and the GOP want; they want to end tenure and destroy teachers' unions. This is all of a piece with Conservatives demonization of public employee unions, after they have crippled private industry unions through a sustained 40 year assault. The goal is to eliminate all forms of collective bargaining by workers. Public employee unions are the new Conservative devil and Christie is at the forefront of the attack.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 6:59 AM | Report abuse

"I didn't see anyone going after Bush 43 because of No Child or Medicare Part D, both of which were significant expansions of federal power. Not to mention intrusions into privacy following 9/11. Where were all the freedom loving conservatives then?"

If you got information other than from inside the SweatLodge*, you would have seen a lot of it.

This is a point I make all the time. For all the liberal blather about conservatives supposedly getting information solely from Fox, Beck, and Limbaugh, it's quite obvious that liberals are much prone to never venture outside their self-reinforcing cocoon of "knowledge." I.e., the SweatLodge.*


* Copyright Bilgeman 2009.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 7:06 AM | Report abuse

And to go a step further, what the Conservatives really want is to destroy the public education system and replace it with a privatized system of "charter" schools. Public education in this land, which has predated the funding of the union, is no longer acceptable for Conservatives. The Radical Right knows no limits. It's aim is complete domination by concentrated wealth. Unions get in the way.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 7:17 AM | Report abuse

"Well, might as well start with this one. Go on, start defending child labor."

Article II grants Congress no power to prohibit child labor. But states retain that power, and would not doubt have exercised it within their judgment had Congress not usurped their power.

Next.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 7:25 AM | Report abuse

Let's recap the things we cannot discuss in the aftermath of the Tucson Massacre:

1. Right WIng anti-government hate speech;

2. Conservatives' opposition to the government providing care for the mentally ill;

3. Gun control.

Political correctness, Conservative style.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 7:31 AM | Report abuse

BTW, Kevin, you may want to check with your fellow Conservatives here before you say that the Right Wing isn't trying to eliminate the New Deal.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 7:34 AM | Report abuse

qb1: ""The clients we work for apparently figure that the huge amounts of money we help them make or keep are valuable."" Cartainly more valuable than their children... oops! They send them to private school, right?
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 15, 2011 7:36 AM | Report abuse

Ex-president Carter: involved in humanitarian projects around the world.

Ex-president Bush: trying to justify his mistakes and recast his failures.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 14, 2011 11:52 PM
===================================


Jimmy Carter: the most bitter, vindictive and vain ex-Pres in history. Here's his Amazon page, listing the seemingly endless parade of dreary tomes he inflicts upon us, centered around the themes of (1) "How great (and righteous) I am," (2) How evil Republicans are, (3) How small and wrong the American People were!, and (4) How evil Israel is.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=jimmy+carter

Can you even believe there is a title called The Wit and Wisdom of Jimmy Carter?

Such a worm of a man.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 7:37 AM | Report abuse

jimmy Carter had the nerve to tell Americans the truth: we are in a world of constricting resources and we have to grow up and deal with it. Not what Americans wanted to hear. So we chose a different path: one of economic bubbles and free market excess. Now we are 40 years later and far worse off than when Carter warned us. The Nation owes Jimmy Carter a huge apology. Thanks for trying, President Carter.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 7:43 AM | Report abuse

Btw, Ron Reagan is one of the only "men" I can think of who rivals Jimmah for worminess.

What kind of a no-talent, vapid rat of a man spends his life trying to cash in by trashing his own dad and his politics? Ron Reagan.

Btw, since libs now believe Pres RR was senile by 1984, should we attribute his post-84 foibles like being bamboozled by Dems into tax increases to that? Works for me.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 7:44 AM | Report abuse

Enjoy the Conservative bile!

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 7:46 AM | Report abuse

"Cartainly more valuable than their children... oops! They send them to private school, right?"

They tend to be corporations, so "they" don't actually have children per se. No doubt their shareholders, officers, directors, and employees do, and no doubt some use all that money for private schools.

No "oops" in there, for ya, sorry to say. See, that would mean we help them do what they think best for their children. But don't let that stop your flailing.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 7:48 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne - in response to your ramble at 7:31


This is what we can do:


1) Take a look at some of the video clips from left wing liberals - the violent speech is unbelievable. That Ed show (not the bowling alley lawyer) - he is out-of-bounds.

I guess you-tube would be the place for this - these comments are less well-known because their ratings are so low, near zero.


2) Perhaps the government should provide more funds for the mentally ill. Glaring in all of this is the actions of the Community College - which did not SOLVE anything - all they did was move the problem to the Safeway parking lot.


Had the college (which may be part of the county government) made sure to provide adequate treatment, perhaps the violence could have been averted. The liberals are obviously running this college (as can be seen from the interviews.)


3) The William Ayers liberal program which funded the high school of the suspect has to be investigated. Very strange connection there. In addition, there is a report that Obama was funding the high school as well - when Obama was on the board of a non-profit dedicated to helping far-left causes.


4) IF THERE WAS ONE MORE GUN AT THIS EVENT, there would have been less killing. If several people in the crowd had guns in that parking lot, the violence would have been substantially less.


The liberals have to get their minds around the fact that they can NEVER get rid of ALL guns, there will ALWAYS be illegal guns on the street.


Our ONLY chance is to have MORE GUNS in the hands of law-abiding citizens.

That is the SOLUTION -

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 7:49 AM | Report abuse

qb1: ""They tend to be corporations, so "they" don't actually have children per se."" Yeah, they may be "people" in the eyes of the law, but they can't have kids, or (conveniently) go to prison.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 15, 2011 7:50 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne in response to your attempt to spread a falsehood at 7:34


Conservatives are NOT trying to repeal the New Deal


Liberals are trying to repeal the Reagan Revolution - that has to be STOPPED immediately.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 7:53 AM | Report abuse

jprestonian in response to your illogic at 7:50 AM


You say corporations do not have children -

However, they do have subsidiaries, especially subsidiaries in foreign countries - and they also have offshore accounts all over the place.


Sometimes, that is more difficult to handle than family issues.


YOU have no sympathy. Have you no decency?


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 7:58 AM | Report abuse

"jimmy Carter had the nerve to tell Americans the truth: we are in a world of constricting resources and we have to grow up and deal with it. Not what Americans wanted to hear. So we chose a different path: one of economic bubbles and free market excess. Now we are 40 years later and far worse off than when Carter warned us."

Reality is calling. No doubt you would have put your money with Paul Erlich . . . and lost it to Julian Simon. Our resources haven't been "constricting" unless there are aliens secreting them away. Anyone old enough to remember 1980 knows it's laughable to suggest we live worse now than then.

"The Nation owes Jimmy Carter a huge apology. Thanks for trying, President Carter."

Talk about grievance-based and childish thinking. At least one person has sure bought into the Jimmy Carter grievance factory.

Set aside how good or bad he was. You realize how fatuous it is to suggest a country owes him an apology? Like, what, he had right to reelection, adulation, etc.? You are far, far gone into crank thinking.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 8:06 AM | Report abuse

I just don't think that a discussion about Jimmy Carter is appropriate right now.


The issue then was the ECONOMY


Seriously folks - our friend Carter DID NOT DO ENOUGH TO FIX THE ECONOMY.


Get it?


Doesn't that sound like Obama?

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 8:09 AM | Report abuse

"Yeah, they may be "people" in the eyes of the law, but they can't have kids, or (conveniently) go to prison."

Having been through one attempted legal discussion with you, I'll pass on this one. Lots of your brethren have tried their hand at this one, and it doesn't work out so well for your side. Let's just say, you haven't really thought it through, and leave it at that.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 8:11 AM | Report abuse

qb1: ""I'll pass on this one."" Well, don't go 'way mad. :lol:
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 15, 2011 8:15 AM | Report abuse

Not mad at all. Just tired of refuting the silly "corporations aren't people" tantrums. And you were pretty immature last time about it, so I don't see starting a Saturday with it again.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 8:17 AM | Report abuse

"The state of emergency in Tunisia has economists worried that we may be seeing the beginnings of a second wave of global food riots.

Battered by bad weather and increasing demand from the developing world, the global food supply system is buckling under the strain."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/political-economy/2011/01/spike_in_global_food_prices_tr.html?hpid=topnews

Posted by: bernielatham | January 15, 2011 8:17 AM | Report abuse

""Article II grants Congress no power to prohibit child labor. But states retain that power, and would not doubt have exercised it within their judgment had Congress not usurped their power.""

Yep, sort of like they did with Civil Rights and Voting Rights.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 15, 2011 8:19 AM | Report abuse

qb1: ""And you were pretty immature last time about it"" I have to assume you're using the "royal 'you'" in this sentence, as I assure you we have never had any discussion prior to this morning regarding corporate person-hood.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 15, 2011 8:20 AM | Report abuse

The most important issue is the Economy - and Obama is standing in the way of important economic growth.


Obama's health care plan is a DRAG on hiring.

Obama's stimulus was a waste of money - diverted to democratic special interests - and actually did little to create jobs.


Obama is a complete failure on every front.


LIBERALS - I challenge you to look back and see what Obama was saying in 2008. ON almost every issue, Obama has NOT done what he said, or failed miserably in some horrible respect.


Obama can't even handle a mass murder properly without it turning into a political rally with union-style t-shirts.


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 8:23 AM | Report abuse

Headlines we resisted the urge to follow up on...

"Mom accused of killing son by hibachi grill"

Posted by: bernielatham | January 15, 2011 8:23 AM | Report abuse

Bernie

Obviously the liberals should be calling for a BAN on all grills.


The liberals actually have an advantage on this one: the 2nd Amendment does not protect grills.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 8:28 AM | Report abuse

"Yep, sort of like they did with Civil Rights and Voting Rights."

There are a lot of ways to answer that, but what's your point? That Article I gives Congress power to do whatever you think needs done or is a good idea?

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 8:29 AM | Report abuse

The Constitution INCLUDES these things called "checks and balances."


The purpose of these things - is to PREVENT people like the liberals from destroying our country.


Although the liberals consider themselves superior, they appear unable to grasp this simple concept.


For instance, liberals show their disrespect for Constitutional principles such as "checks and balances" by chanting certain words like "reconciliation."


Now, these actions mimic the actions of gorillas - or tribal chanting to build support in the community for actions which the more advanced people in the tribe believe to be unwise or immoral.


For instance, liberals often appear to believe that the Bill of Rights only has 8 Amendments.


The liberals love to ignore the Amendments which they don't like, while they scream and chant about the meaning of certain phrases in the Amendments they do like. It is all tribal.


Anyway I would like to see the liberals respect the 2nd and 10th Amendments. That would settle a great deal in this nation.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 8:35 AM | Report abuse

Hey folks. Much of the commentary up above is an embarrassment. If you take the bait a troll puts in your way, you're contributing to the degradation of what can otherwise be a very valuable thing. Ignore them.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 15, 2011 8:39 AM | Report abuse

A story has been building in the UK over the last week...

"The unprecedented scale of undercover operations used by police to monitor Britain's political protest movements was laid bare last night after a third police spy was identified by the Guardian.

News of the existence of the 44-year-old male officer comes as regulators prepare two separate official inquiries into the activities of this hitherto secret police surveillance network."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/14/third-undercover-police-spy-cardiff

Posted by: bernielatham | January 15, 2011 8:41 AM | Report abuse

The Urban Rubes love to trash the whole Constitution, using the justification that there are certain provisions which they don't like.

However, usually the Urban Rubes fail to understand or mention that the parts they don't like have already been repealed long ago.


For instance, the slave trade appears to still be an issue. It was settled in the 1700s, that the slave trade would end in the early 1800s.


The 13th and 15th Amendment REPEALED other provisions which the URBAN RUBES still cite to justify their belief that the Constitution is "stained" or has "birth defects."


I find these statements offensive. Anyone who says such things I consider to be UNAMERICAN. Plain and simple.

Again, the provisions the Urban Rubes don't like have already been REPEALED.


Then you have people like Ezra Klein who have stated that because the Constitution is over 100 years old, the Urban Rubes do NOT understand it, so therefore it should have no force anymore.


I never heard such logic - because the Urban Rubes do not understand something, because it does not fit into their liberal misguided thinking, therefore the LAW has no force.

That idea is also UnAmerican.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 8:42 AM | Report abuse

""Article II grants Congress no power to prohibit child labor. But states retain that power, and would not doubt have exercised it within their judgment had Congress not usurped their power.""

Yep, sort of like they did with Civil Rights and Voting Rights.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 15, 2011 8:19 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, Imsinca. As has been true over our nation's history, those cloaking themselves in state rights arguments do so to mask another agenda. What would be the practical effect of leaving labor laws to the states? There would be a race to the bottom as states compete with one another to provide the most business-friendly climate and entice corporations into their states. This is just how the Right WIng wrecked the labor movement in this country. They prevented unionizing in the South and then the Southern states lowered wages and companies moved from unionized states to non-unionized states. The Right Wing is nothing if not obvious: Everything it does is designed with one aim, removing all obstacles to unchecked corporate power. Government. Labor unions. National laws. It is all about dividing and conquering. The true enemy of the Right Wing is collective action by the people, whether acting through government, unions or whatever. Separate, isolate and destroy, that is how the Right Wing operates. Yet another tactical explanation for the Right Wing's hate rhetoric is that it disrupts organization and impedes collective action.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 8:43 AM | Report abuse

Bernie

You are a troll, one that puts bait out.

In addition, you promised everyone that you would leave this blog.

Now, are you a liar, or are you going to follow through on your promise?


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 8:44 AM | Report abuse

Catching up with yesterday....

Bernie:

"“I've quoted that Eisenhower letter quite a few times previously. I've yet to see a careful or honest response to it…”"

Or, in other words, a response that doesn’t dare to question The World According to Bernie. I’d like to think that someday you will realize, Bernie, that disagreement with TWAB is not, as you seem to think, necessarily dishonest or sloppy or unthinking. Seems unlikely, as it would require a rejection of your religious-like beliefs, but I am hopeful.

"“If you think about this in consumer-satisfaction terms the citizens of those other nations are happy consumers of nationalized healthcare…”"

As I've told you before, you should go to the UK some time. This is simply false.

(To sbj):

"“I'm really not expert enough to contrast the two systems in the way you are requesting.”"

In other words, you have no way of knowing whether or not your assertion has any actual truth value to at all.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 8:50 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne: ""Everything it does is designed with one aim, removing all obstacles to unchecked corporate power."" They sure do love 'em some FREEDUMB, though.

Just not the freedom of individuals to organize on behalf of themselves. Only corporations should be allowed that right.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 15, 2011 8:52 AM | Report abuse

Everyone

Article ONE grants Congress the power over interstate commerce.

The Courts have ruled that manufacturing for goods intended for interstate commerce falls under the jurisdiction of Congress.


Therefore, Article ONE grants Congress the power to regulate child labor.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 8:54 AM | Report abuse

"Break their bones"

I have absolutely no recollection of this news story. Does anyone?

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/freeze-frame-1.336986

Posted by: bernielatham | January 15, 2011 8:54 AM | Report abuse

Kevin....How do I uninstall TH? The only reason I'm using it is to make use of the formatting options, and it doesn't seem to work for me. I'm sure it is user error, but with no preview option to know whether I've done it correctly, I'd rather not use it at all than have my posts mangled because of my mistakes.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 8:55 AM | Report abuse

jprestonian:

Agreed. And welcome aboard. I've enjoyed your comments.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 8:57 AM | Report abuse

Test

"test"

test

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 8:57 AM | Report abuse

Jennifer Rubin talks to some shrinks about Tucson.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-turn/2011/01/the_real_issue_in_arizona_schi.html

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 8:57 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne continues his rambling by writing

The true enemy of the Right Wing is collective action by the people, whether acting through government, unions or whatever. Separate, isolate and destroy, that is how the Right Wing operates. Yet another tactical explanation for the Right Wing's hate rhetoric is that it disrupts organization and impedes collective action.


_______________________________

Can you add a little more by Lenin, and maybe Stalin - that would help everyone understand you a bit more.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 15, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Scott

All you have to do is re-install the script to get the double quotes to work correctly. If you don't want to do that, I think you said you're using firefox/greasemonkey, just click on the monkey on the bottom right and hit refresh and it goes back to the old boring WAPO comments section.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 15, 2011 8:59 AM | Report abuse

shrink:

“Gabrielle Giffords is having an historical outcome, nowhere near as bizarre as Phineas Gage, but perhaps even better. I can't believe it. It is barely comprehensible. The more you know about these these things the harder it is to understand.”

Imagine how good her prospects would be if they had taken her to Vancouver,

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Obama (and Sheriff Dipstik) apparently screw up again.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/257220/one-little-thing-about-speech-mr-president-andrew-c-mccarthy

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 9:01 AM | Report abuse

@Scott - and in the truncated quote of me above, what have the ellipses left out?

Posted by: bernielatham | January 15, 2011 9:02 AM | Report abuse

""There would be a race to the bottom as states compete with one another to provide the most business-friendly climate and entice corporations into their states.""

wbgonne

It's the same thing they wanted to do with Medical Insurance, sell across state lines and gravitate to the lowest common denominator. The south did the same thing with the Jim Crow laws and it took a prolonged and bloody battle to impose equal rights by the Feds.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 15, 2011 9:04 AM | Report abuse

No of course the resources aren't running out.

The world is a beach ball, inflated with oil.

Trust in the marketplace and the two-headed god whose twin faces are supply and demand. The markets are infallible and if we just take away all regulations we can have everything we want.

Christ conservatives are stupid.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 9:04 AM | Report abuse

lms...thanks. Do I need to re-boot or start a new browser or anything after re-installing?

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 9:05 AM | Report abuse

"Just not the freedom of individuals to organize on behalf of themselves. Only corporations should be allowed that right."

Liberal labor law and policy have nothing to do with such a "freedom." You know that, right? They have to do with two things: coercing individuals into unions they don't want to join, and coercing employers to deal exclusively with unions who win the power struggle.

You're so far into the trees you can't see the forest. You aren't even aware of your own starting premises.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 9:05 AM | Report abuse

QB1, we both know you meant Article I so I am not attempting a cheap shot by mentioning it.

No specific legislation is self-enacted by Section 8. Powers are granted in general terms. Limits are in Section 9.

The power to regulate commerce among the states broadly permitted the creation of a "common market". Thus it could be legitimately read to imply the creation of a common labor pool. State-by-state variances in labor law exist, but if Congress were to find that lawful employment of children in NY gave it an unfair advantage over PA it could restrict nationally the employment of children - unless that were prohibited by Section 9.

If we have a Court that limits the commerce clause more strictly than the Rehnquist court [say] or one that does not, the line drawing takes into account the relative emphasis on
what was meant by the powers and the limitations expressed, the history of decision making under the clause, and the separation of powers, itself.

I am still wondering at the exploding scope of eminent domain. Let us leave "child labor" for another time. :-)

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 15, 2011 9:07 AM | Report abuse

Scott

Just close and re-open Wapo. I think Keven got rid of everything but the blockquote though, I haven't tried anything else. It's worth it just for that.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 15, 2011 9:08 AM | Report abuse

"No of course the resources aren't running out."

This is really the crux. Pure free market capitalism requires an inexhaustible supply of resources so that the Invisible Hand can work its magic. Unfortunately, we live in a finite world that is getting more crowded and more depleted every hour. So we must learn to share, conserve and work cooperatively: all of which are anathema to the Right Wing.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 9:08 AM | Report abuse

Bernie:

"and in the truncated quote of me above, what have the ellipses left out?"

Which one? There were two with elipses. In any event, I'd have to go back and look. as I wrote it last night but wasn't able to post until this morning. If you want to fill us in without me having to go back, that would be great.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 9:09 AM | Report abuse

Nice word DDAWD, you dangled the hook and they bit down hard.
Wow, defending child labor. How freaking despicable.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 9:10 AM | Report abuse

re: tenure:

"Contrary to what the word conjures up, tenure doesn’t mean a lifetime job guarantee for teachers."

But this is the practical result. And really, that's pretty much what it means.

"Laws establishing hearings or other protections against arbitrary firing sprang up state by state in response to problems such as discrimination against women or politically motivated firings. Tenure is really about due-process protections"

Which exists even without tenure, as almost no school system, especially a large one or one in large urban areas, can afford to be sued for wrongful termination. Which they can be, and often are, with or without tenure being involved. That's why when school systems dismiss people, they do their due process, and exercise extreme diligence. Non-tenured folks in a school system (almost all of them, except senior teachers) who get dismissed will have a thorough file that documents why they were fired, so when they challenge it in court they (the former employee) can't get very far.

The only other option to get rid of people is to restructure divisions and departments to eliminate that job position. That happens, too, and doesn't require the same level of documentation, but is not an effective way to deal with non-performing teachers.

In many systems, however, the problem isn't tenure (it may be where the system pays a great deal of money, but there aren't many where that's true) but retention. Experienced teachers often don't stay. But systems where teachers make a great deal of money (I know that New York City is one), tenure is probably a bad idea.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 15, 2011 9:11 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne:

"Unfortunately, we live in a finite world that is getting more crowded and more depleted every hour. "

You should really read the book "The Ultimate Resource" by Julian Simon. It is free, on line. Just google it. You might learn something.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 9:12 AM | Report abuse

Scott, if you're using Greasemonkey, just click on the monkey head in the lower right corner. If it's gray, Greasemonkey is off and the Troll Hunter doesn't run.

I've also updated it so ""Double quotes are block quotes"" and that should avoid any mangling. Keeping in mind, the mangling will still be visible to other WaPo Troll hunter users, if there is any. It operates exclusively on the viewing end . . .

But you might try re-installing. Seems to be working, as far as I can tell.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 15, 2011 9:15 AM | Report abuse

All, a fresh Open Thread for you:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/open_thread_15.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | January 15, 2011 9:15 AM | Report abuse

QB, you are such a worm.

You really ought to learn about the working conditions that led to labor organization.

Never mind, you would have approved.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 9:16 AM | Report abuse

"Which exists even without tenure, as almost no school system, especially a large one or one in large urban areas, can afford to be sued for wrongful termination."

Who defines "wrongful termination"? If there were no tenure, what would prevent, for example, a newly-elected Republican governor from firing all teachers and appointing his own? This is just the Right Wing assault on collective bargaining carried into new terrain.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 9:17 AM | Report abuse

"It's the same thing they wanted to do with Medical Insurance, sell across state lines and gravitate to the lowest common denominator. The south did the same thing with the Jim Crow laws and it took a prolonged and bloody battle to impose equal rights by the Feds."

Then apparently the best thing for Congress to do would be to forbid interstate commerce altogether. Then we would have companies selling cereal and cars competing across state lines, no race to the bottom, and much more prosperity.

Not quite following how Jim Crow was "the same thing." I guess Colonel Kurtz is right that we conservatives are stupid, since I fail to grasp how Jim Crow was an interstate economic competition. Strangely, all the other states weren't drawn into that competition.

"What would be the practical effect of leaving labor laws to the states? There would be a race to the bottom as states compete with one another to provide the most business-friendly climate and entice corporations into their states."

So people would put their kids to work in factories today but for the feds preventing it? Interesting.

Most states actually have their own child labor laws. But don't let that get in the way of your ideology.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 9:19 AM | Report abuse

Yes scott we know. Limits to growth are defined by totaling insolation and dividing by the area of the earth's surface.

After all nobody needs more than two square feet to lead a fully functional existence. As long as we can create wealth.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 9:21 AM | Report abuse

Kevin...I'll give it another shot. I've reinstalled (I think...the comments removed bar has changed color) and re-started by browser. So, here goes:

""Does it work?""

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 9:21 AM | Report abuse

cao:

""Yes scott we know.""

Actually, it doesn't appear that you do.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 15, 2011 9:23 AM | Report abuse

@Scott - what was left out was the observation that in Britain, as in Canada, though some people can (will inevitably) grumble about some service that tells us essentially nothing about how they regard the worth of the thing.

What establishes or measures that is whether they reject it. And in Britain, as in Canada, there is no important political constituency to reject their systems. If there was, a political party would harvest this discontent or desire and advance a platform which called for removal. No such exists in Canada or in Britain or in the other countries we are speaking of...Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Sweden, France, etc etc etc

Where there is a constituency large enough to clamor for change has been the US, the one country that stands outside the rest of the western nations.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 15, 2011 9:24 AM | Report abuse

"Then we would NOT have...."

I am so sloppy editing.

Must go play Wii with my daughter now. (Sadly for fiona, I have a happy and well-adjusted family.)

But bernie should feel better, being able to hold class without me.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 9:25 AM | Report abuse

Yes and we should lower the age of marriage to 12 so children can be born earlier and get them right to work. Who cares if they're dead by 30 as long as they've reproduced and there's a steady supply of obedient workers.

Gotta love that free market.

Pull up a chair, let's talk about supply and demand.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 9:25 AM | Report abuse

@wbgonne: "Who defines 'wrongful termination'? If there were no tenure, what would prevent, for example, a newly-elected Republican governor from firing all teachers and appointing his own? This is just the Right Wing assault on collective bargaining carried into new terrain."

Well, the courts, precedent, the school board, the electorate and (in many places) the state board of education and the state constitution. It couldn't be done without (at the bare minimum) new legislation, and, if they could get that legislation past the state senate, the state constitution, and the courts, they could get the same legislation past that simultaneous ignores/end tenure). The constitutionality of that legislation (superseding the rights and mandates of local municipalities) would be challenged, and such a blanket firing of everybody would find it's way to the supreme court. Assuming the appeals would be accepted, as the fire-happy governor and his oddly complicit state legislature lost at every step up the chain.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 15, 2011 9:27 AM | Report abuse

cao:

Inexhaustible resources. Yet another example of the the Right Wing's Magical Thinking. They've built an economic theory on Jesus' Miracle of the Fishes.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 9:27 AM | Report abuse

Scott . . occasionally previous version does an enlarged font after the blockquote. I just updated Troll Hunter so there should not be any more "enlarged font" problems after a blockquote.

Cao:

icabmodule://www.wooteam.com/wapotroll.icabmodule

If you want to try the Troll Hunter for iCab. You have to manually trigger it (at least, I did on my iPhone). You might try turning on autorun in the preferences (prefs -> modules -> WaPo Troll Hunter -> Autorun "ON".

Manual trigger--hit the puzzle piece at the bottom of the screen, then select the WaPo Troll Hunter.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 15, 2011 9:32 AM | Report abuse

Kevin:

All those political obstacles to firing teachers would presumably be removed when tenure is eliminated. That is the purpose of eliminating tenure. As for the courts, if there is no collective bargaining agreement to enforce who is to say what they will do? As I've mentioned -- and Greg's linked article states -- there is widespread consensus that some aspects of the tenure regime should be revised. But that is not the Right Wing's intention or goal: the Right Wing intends to destroy public employee unions and they are starting with teachers.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 15, 2011 9:34 AM | Report abuse

And if the wells really do dry up, and make no mistake, they are .. well then we need to adjust the price to maximize shareholder value with what remains. Compared to the free market and the shareholders, what's one lousy ecosystem? So we broil the world, just think of the profit, man, the profit!

So it belongs to other countries, details details.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 9:37 AM | Report abuse

qb

I wasn't commenting on the constitution or commerce clause, I was commenting on leaving so many issues up to states vs. feds. To me all the legal mumbo jumbo is a mine field and it worries me that so many conservatives seem to have the great desire to return so many settled issues back to the states by dismantling the Federal government. I think it's valid to draw comparisons to how some states dealt with these issues in the past.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 15, 2011 9:44 AM | Report abuse

quarterback writes
"Our nation doesn't decide the value of teachers or attorneys. That horrible, nasty supply and demand do, for the most part. ... The clients [attorneys] work for apparently figure that the huge amounts of money we help them make or keep are valuable."

Ah... the old supply and demand argument. Supply and demand work well for 'instant' transactions. I'm hungry & you have an extra apple - it is very easy to establish a price amenable to both. But an education is an extremely long-term payout & we don't know what it will be worth. Most significantly, we're buying education collectively, through tax dollars. So we're seeing an immediate cost for a payout far into the future, when some of us won't even be alive. So... we restrict the funds available for teachers & hire those who are willing to work for as little as possible. That's certainly one way to approach a purchase: I have x dollars and will spend x and only x, regardless of the quality of the product. So we end up with teachers who are willing to work for meager pay. A person can't help but wonder if we'd find a larger pool of potential candidates for teaching if we increased the reward for the work.

Posted by: bsimon1 | January 15, 2011 10:03 AM | Report abuse

And in countries like here where education is esteemed and teachers get good pay you get kids who LIKE going to school.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 10:10 AM | Report abuse

Cao, better yet, you can convert to Islam and marry a 9 year old. Ahh love the religion of piece, err peace.

Posted by: actuator | January 15, 2011 10:10 AM | Report abuse

Or move to the sticks in Utah and marry six of them

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 10:13 AM | Report abuse

In Vietnam "good pay" is $2 per day.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 15, 2011 11:09 AM | Report abuse

QB-

Obama's comment about the Judge's desire to stop and say hello creates some interesting legal questions. Is the statement heresay or is it an admission? Since I don't practice criminal law, I am not aware of the legal nuances that may be involved, but I think there does seem to be an argument about it being an admission. Even if it is an admission, does what Obama said suddenly turn an official act into an unofficial act? There has to be case law on these issues, right?

I do think that even the most inexperienced and pathetic public defender would stumble upon the argument that a Federal Judge, who is appointed rather than elected, was not a official business when he headed to a political event.

My last question is whether or not this counts as exculpatory information which would have been required to be turned over during discovery. Again, since I'm not a criminal lawyer, I'm not sure if it would be exculpatory or not.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 15, 2011 11:42 AM | Report abuse

Liberals have an anti-freedom ideology, but the facts are that resources including oil are indeed more plentiful now than thirty years ago. The Malthusians then said we'd be starving and freezing by 1990. We'd hafta, bc there's only so much oil!

Not magic, just human ingenuity and technology. But who was it that said technology seems like magic to people who don't understand it?

hahahaha

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 15, 2011 11:43 AM | Report abuse

We're the Saudi Arabia of natgas and coal.
We have experienced USN nuc reactor operators.
So we subsidize windmills and solar.
Brilliant!

Posted by: TominColorado | January 15, 2011 11:51 AM | Report abuse

ashotinthedark, aren't all lawyers by definition criminals.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 15, 2011 11:54 AM | Report abuse

ashotinthedark, aren't all lawyers by definition criminals.

Posted by: clawrence12
-----------------------------------------

Only according to their clients.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 15, 2011 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Liberals have an anti-freedom ideology, but the facts are that resources including oil are indeed more plentiful now than thirty years ago

==

Yeah when you burn through a nonrenewable resource you end up with more of it than ever.

You must be complete idiot.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 15, 2011 7:52 PM | Report abuse

You're one too, TomInCO.

Go to Korea, look at all the megawatts of windmills. No CO2, no radioactive waste. Even on traffic signals. Even if you weren't daydreaming about the supply and in the wrong aboutbthe environmental cost, it's all going to run out, but the wind will keep blowing and the sun keep shining.

I get my shower water heated free, what's your problem with that?

Posted by: caothien9 | January 16, 2011 2:27 AM | Report abuse

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