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Posted at 7:07 PM ET, 01/19/2011

Happy Hour Roundup

By Greg Sargent

* The House voted today to repeal Obama's signature domestic achievement.

* Only three Dems voted for the repeal bill -- Mike Ross, Dan Boren, and Mike McIntyre -- suggesting the repeal fight has the capacity to unite Dems in a way that passing the law itself certainly didn't.

* Mitch McConnell, who last we checked leads the minority in the Senate, says Senate Democrats will hold a vote on repeal, despite their insistence to the contrary.

* Dems, who had been reluctant to go this route, finally start making the case that repeal would cause people to die.

* The Public Campaign Action Fund is already up with a new ad in the districts of three Republicans who voted for repeal today, signaling that today's vote is only the starting point of a protracted political battle over repeal that will help define the 2012 cycle.

* Relatedly, Organizing for America is already raising cash off the repeal vote.

* Suzy Khimm calculates that more than 12 million people are already benefitting from the Affordable Care Act.

* Jed Lewison argues that the nuanced polling shows that voters are rejecting the GOP's "false choice" between full repeal and leaving the health bill as is.

* And also don't miss Jonathan Cohn on how the better polling shows that "enthusiasm for blowing up the bill seems to be a lot lower than the headlines suggest."

* A bracing analysis from the Associated Press of how GOP spending cuts would affect "millions of people."

* Holocaust survivors condemn Dem Rep. Steve Cohen's Goebbels "big lie" reference.

* Amazing: Gabrielle Giffords is set to leave the hospital on Friday, less than two weeks after she was shot at close range in the brain.

* And she stood on both feet and looked out the window.

* According to the Dem firm Public Policy Polling, a plurality of Americans no longer trust Fox News, suggesting the drumbeat of criticism from the left may be slowly undermining the network's credibility with the broader public.

* And don't miss this gem from the pollster's analysis:

"Democrats trust everything but Fox. Republicans don't trust anything but Fox."

What else is happening?

By Greg Sargent  | January 19, 2011; 7:07 PM ET
Categories:  Happy Hour Roundup, Health reform, House Dems, House GOPers, Senate Dems, Senate Republicans  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Dem Rep: No apology for saying GOP mendacity is worthy of Goebbels
Next: The Morning Plum

Comments


Greg

Why haven't you banned Liam for participating in a SMEAR campaign against an innocent citizen on the pages of this lofty blog???


Why haven't you banned rukidding (Bobby Lee) for his Racist hate speech on the pages of this lofty blog ???


Why haven't you banned 12barbluesAgain for bringing Cao this blog, knowing exactly what he would do? She did it to act out on her destructive tendencies. She knew what she was doing, and even said she was proud of it and defended on it on the pages of this lofty blog.


.
.

I would have to say that a CIVIL discussion would have to involve both sides being honest.

I believe that since Obama came in, too many democrats have been deceptive, and refuse to acknowledge the obvious lies.


In addition GREG, a fair moderation policy which is not slanted against people based on their political views would help the situation - this is how third world dictatorships operate - not Americans who believe in Equal Protection and application of the laws.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 7:09 PM | Report abuse

The Congress Man Told The Truth About The Big Lie.

No wonder right wingers are howling.

They can't handle the truth. They were Suckled on The Big Lie.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 19, 2011 7:11 PM | Report abuse

Rep. Cohen (D-TN) should be censured under House Rule XVII.

For the record, I am a registered Republican, and I would call for a censure resolution if a Republican had said the same thing on the floor too. That is more important right now than disproving the allegations by Rep. Cohen (D-TN). I join with the Holocaust survivors in condemning him.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 19, 2011 7:13 PM | Report abuse

Now people must apply unrelenting pressure on all those Congress Reps who voted for repeal, to now surrender their Government subsidized Health Care Insurance Plans.

Make all those who voted for repeal, now Walk The Talk.

If they want government to have no say in Health Care matters, then they must now remove their greedy lips from it's teats.

Keep the heat on all those hypocrites.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 19, 2011 7:14 PM | Report abuse

Greg writes

"Only three Dems voted against the repeal bill"

that should be "Only three Democrats voted for the repeal bill"

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 7:15 PM | Report abuse

"* Only three Dems voted against the repeal bill -- Mike Ross, Dan Boren, and Mike McIntyre -- suggesting the repeal fight has the capacity to unite Dems in a way that passing the law itself certainly didn't."

Did you mean to write "* Only three Dems voted for the repeal bill" ?

Posted by: jnc4p | January 19, 2011 7:15 PM | Report abuse

O please let the Republicans try to censure him. Then we can force them to defend their Big Lie tactics.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 19, 2011 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Liam-still, you can "force" anything. We own the House now.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 19, 2011 7:18 PM | Report abuse

Suzy Khimm calculates that more than 12 million people are already benefitting from the Affordable Care Act.


___________________


In related news which the democrats do not care about, 150 MILLION people are paying HIGHER TAXES because of Obama's bill.

AND 300 MILLION people in the United States face HIGHER TAXES because Obama's health care plan is a Ticking Time Bomb which threatens other government services.

Liberals love to leave out that part.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 7:19 PM | Report abuse

Ahem,
Well hello Dalí, it's so nice to have you back again.
...............................
Congressman Cohen; my works of Art dealt with surrealism. The Republicans do not do that. They traffic in the Unreal, aka The Big Lie.

The ghost of Salvador Dalí.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 19, 2011 7:21 PM | Report abuse

"According to the Dem firm Public Policy Polling, a plurality of Americans no longer trust Fox News"
============================

roflol -- that truly is the most laughable thing I have ever read. clue: polls are worthless. you can make people say anything you want just by a change of wording. and not knowing the construction/methodology makes it even more worthless. it's calling 'cherry-picking.'
Posted by: fiona5 | January 14, 2011

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 7:22 PM | Report abuse

Liam

The Republicans want health care to go back to the way it was BEFORE

Saying "If they want government to have no say in Health Care matters, then they must now remove their greedy lips from it's teats." IS DECEPTIVE


AND Obama and the democrats refused to consider genuine compromise which the Republicans said they would be in favor of.

You forget that.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 7:23 PM | Report abuse

Obama SOURCES in the new WSJ/NBC poll to 53% approval and 41% disapproval. This matches the ABC/WaPo and the CNN poll which have Obama's approval at 54% and 53% repectively.

Posted by: maritza1 | January 19, 2011 7:23 PM | Report abuse

By the way Greg, it looks like the question from today's Morning Plum:

"* Can Washington remain "civil" while GOP tries to roll back Obama's entire agenda?"

was answered. Back to business as usual.

Posted by: jnc4p | January 19, 2011 7:26 PM | Report abuse

How dare anyone mention Goebbels, when talking about The Party that called President Obama a Fascist Nazi, Muslim Non American.

Why Newt, said in his book, that President Obama is a greater threat to America than The Nazis or The Soviet Union were.

But yes; suddenly the Right Wingers are all wetting their beds, because of the mention of of how The Big Lie lead to the slaughter of millions.

Strange how making such connections are never out of bounds for Right Wingers, when talking about President Obama; isn't it!

Posted by: Liam-still | January 19, 2011 7:28 PM | Report abuse

The democrats are happy about the polls numbers - except everyone STILL wants to get Obama out of office as soon as possible. I guess when their is a mass murder, if a potted plant is in office, the approval numbers for the potted plant will go up.


_____________________________


So, is this now the MEMO?

NO on in the whole nation is allowed to compare anything to the Nazis, or mention the Nazis at all.


Is this because the Nazi were what?


OK - so no violent metaphors, and no comparisons to Nazis.


And if you use any phrase, make sure that in the past 500 years, every ethnic group with 2% of the population would not find that phrase offensive, even though few people know it is a slur.

____________


OK can we just make a list of ACCEPTABLE things to say - it might be shorter than the list of UNACCEPTABLE THINGS

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 7:28 PM | Report abuse

"However passionate Congressman Cohen felt during the debate, he should not have alluded to the Nazis in his remarks.

As survivors, we have long spoken of the malignant impact that trivialization of Nazi crimes has had on the profound implications for education, history, and the memory that comes from invoking the tragedy of the Holocaust. This becomes particularly important in the current political climate where the propriety of what is acceptable in public discourse has come under renewed scrutiny."

Elan Steinberg
Vice-President, American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 19, 2011 7:28 PM | Report abuse

"Democrats trust everything but Fox. Republicans don't trust anything but Fox."

Not a big surprise in either case. As Junod smartly observed in his Esquire piece on Ailes...

"Is Fox News "fair and balanced"? Doesn't matter. Because fair and balanced is not a description of Fox News; it's an attack on everyone else."

Posted by: bernielatham | January 19, 2011 7:29 PM | Report abuse

"Gov. Terry Branstad said today he has joined 25 other states in a federal lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the health care reform bill approved last year by Congress."---DM Register
=====================================

Well, state #26 means over half the states in the union are challenging the constitutionality of the federal mandate.
Washington has failed miserably. Has there been any other time since the Civil War when this many states were opposed to some federal legislative effort? Not what you normally expect from your elected representatives. I believe the mandate is in fact unconstitutional, but I don't have a lot of faith in even a conservative Supreme Court when it comes to limiting the power of Washington. Not after finding out what California's medicinal marijuana law would do to interstate commerce.

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 7:31 PM | Report abuse

Why I am a Democrat.

Because we usually fight in behalf of Deprived Underdogs,

While The Republicans usually fight in behalf of Privileged Overdogs.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 19, 2011 7:33 PM | Report abuse

Unfortunately, the nuanced polling over ACA is lost on approximately the same number of folks who can't understand the nuance in Rep. Cohen's Goebbels rant.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 19, 2011 7:35 PM | Report abuse

"However passionate Congressman Cohen felt during the debate, he should not have alluded to the Nazis in his remarks."

Yes and no. Obviously, a prohibition on public discussion of the Nazis or Germany in the 30's and 40's leaves a big, gaping hole in western world history, so that's pretty dumb. And any prohibition on discussing what Goebbels and team got up to is equally dumb.

But it seems quite valid to me to criticize Cohen for bringing up the Holocaust and what was done to Jews during that period in that there is a too facile association (weak but there) between two phenomena of very different magnitudes.

That Republicans are, in the case Cohen references, utilizing the Big Lie technique, is obvious to anyone who studies propaganda techniques or who isn't rabidly partisan. Falsehoods are put into the public discourse and they are repeated over and over again in order to produce a consensus that they are true.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 19, 2011 7:41 PM | Report abuse

"Holocaust survivors condemn Dem Rep. Steve Cohen's Goebbels "big lie" reference."
======================================

Nutjobs like Cohen are part of the gift that keeps on giving to Republicans. Just keep people like him in the news and more Dems will get what the pathetic moron Grayson got in Florida. Can you believe anyone would have the brass to criticize Sarah Palin when Dems have dirtbags like this out running their mouths?

Cohen, who is Jewish, represents a majority black congressional district. I guess Farrakhan hasn't gotten the word out. Doesn't this bozo do magic tricks when he's not running his mouth and making a fool of himself?

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 7:46 PM | Report abuse

Rep. Cohen (D-TN) should be censured under House Rule XVII.

For the record, I am a registered Republican, and I would call for a censure resolution if a Republican had said the same thing on the floor too. That is more important right now than disproving the allegations by Rep. Cohen (D-TN). I join with the Holocaust survivors in condemning him.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 19, 2011 7:49 PM | Report abuse

I do believe it is blind for the left to think that (public option) is the only road to affordable near universal health care, or to act as if it is a magic bullet, or to be unaware of the potential opening of a third black hole in the national budget.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 19, 2011
==================================

It would be a guaranteed black hole in the national budget. Even the states are running scared from being bankrupted by idiotic federal mandates. 26 states and counting fight to have the individual mandate declared unconstitutional. Nice work Dems.

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 7:53 PM | Report abuse

Obama has won the War on Terror debate -- for the American Right. And as Dick Cheney's interview last night demonstrates, they're every bit as appreciative as they should be.

Posted by: jnc4p | January 19, 2011
==============================

One of the best posts of the day. Hardly a peep from rank and file Dems about the war anymore or about Gitmo closing. Wars quit costing money and lives as soon as Barry was sworn in. Which tells you all the whining and protesting when Bush was president was totally unprincipled. Cheney has been vindicated.

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 7:57 PM | Report abuse

As survivors, we have long spoken of the malignant impact that trivialization of Nazi crimes has had on the profound implications for education, history, and the memory that comes from invoking the tragedy of the Holocaust. This becomes particularly important in the current political climate where the propriety of what is acceptable in public discourse has come under renewed scrutiny."

______________________


Don't even refer to the Nazis as Nazis.

People might get the wrong idea.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 7:59 PM | Report abuse

Now we have the Right Wingers applying The Big Lie Tactic to The Public Option.

In fact, all it would be, is a large pool of people opting to pay premiums for coverage, with a much lower operating cost, than Insurance Companies claim, and without the big slice being taken out of it, to pay dividends, and big fat salaries, pension plans, and bonuses to very rich Insurance Execs.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 19, 2011 8:01 PM | Report abuse

Liberals,

My major crimes on this blog appear to be Hyperbole and pointing out hypocrisy.

The liberals, in sharp contrast, regularly practice deception and engage in outright lies.

The first basis of civil discussion is HONESTY. If the liberals will just agree to refrain from their constant deception and lies, things could move along quite a ways.

HONESTY - that has to begin with honest statements from the democrats about how differnt Obama's job performance has been from his 2008 campaign.


Let's see some honesty from the democrats on this Bait and Switch operation - because the lies that the democrats have had to tell to support the "switch" have been outrageous.

In the past, people used to get driven out of town.

At this point, that is exactly where we are - in years past, actions like the democrats have pulled would have resulted in them getting driven out of town - and told never to return.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:05 PM | Report abuse

It's actually 28 states, and counting (some state legislatures aren't even in session yet).

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 19, 2011 8:05 PM | Report abuse


Can Washington remain "civil" while GOP tries to roll back Obama's entire agenda?


Answer: Anything that comes about as a result of Bait and Switch is not legitimate.

So, the "civil" thing to do is for all parties to agree that the "switch" part has zero legitimacy and has to go.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:08 PM | Report abuse

Nonsense. Bush's stupid invasion of Iraq is not something that Democrats are now emulating. They are just moping up Bush's mess, and trying to get the hell out of a place that America should never have invaded.

Posted by: Liam-still | January 19, 2011
======================================

Bush's stupid invasion? All those Dems get a free pass for voting to invade Iraq?
Your head will work better if you pull it out of your rectum.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA)

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
-- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI)

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA)

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
-- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV)

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA)

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV)

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 8:11 PM | Report abuse

Now all the "Blue-Dog" Democrats are on the record as voting for Obamacare again now that the bill has finally been read.
- 10 years of taxes for 7 years of benefits in order to game the CBO scoring.
- Millions of new Form 1099's on business transactions
- Thousands of new IRS agents for enforcement.
- But, thousands of organizations arbitrarily granted waivers.

It's a dog-breakfast mess and not what the left really wanted anyhow. They want UK/Canada style national health care, but that would require siezing doctors practices and hospitals then making them work for for the Feds.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 19, 2011 8:17 PM | Report abuse

A brief discussion on the Senate democrats up for re-election or retiring

Michigan
Minnesota
Montana
New Jersey
Ohio
Pennsylvania
Washington
Wisconsin
Connecticut Independent retiring
Florida
Missouri
Nebraska
Virginia
West Virginia


I would just like to point out that Chris Christie just won a state-wide election in New Jersey.

West Virginia may be strong democratic, however Joe Manchin was behind in many polls and he was popular to begin with.


All these States, with the right candidate and a great amount of money, could go Republican.

So, in this atmosphere, WHY wouldn't these democrats WANT to RUSH to vote for REPEAL???

Then they could run ads saying they voted for REPEAL.

HHHMMM, I really don't care about the NBC poll - the polls in these States collapsed for the democrats last summer.

COLLAPSED.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:19 PM | Report abuse

battleground must be a liberal plant, otherwise how else could one make such a silly assertion as blaming welfare for "the complete destruction of the African-American family structure."

So, apparently he believes in a faulty causation. I'd sure hate to hear what African-American experts on "African-American family structure" would have to say about that if I were him.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 19, 2011
======================================

Gee, I wonder?

"In 1963, according to the famous Department of Labor report issued by Daniel Patrick Moynihan two years later, the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks was 23.6 percent while the rate among whites was only 3.07 percent. By 2005, according to the National Center for Health Statistics, the out-of-wedlock birth rate among non-Hispanic whites had jumped to 25.3 percent and the rate among non-Hispanic blacks stood at nearly 70 percent.

"In a 1991 American Sociological Review article, David J. Eggebeen and Daniel T. Lichter estimated that if black family composition had remained constant from 1960 to 1988, the black child poverty rate in 1988 would have been 28.4 percent instead of 45.6 percent.

"Due to America's racial history, blacks were uniquely vulnerable to the debilitating cultural trends of the post-1960s era and to the perverse incentives created by the federal welfare system. And indeed, today it is culture--not racism or a dearth of economic opportunities--that poses the biggest threat to black family structures, and thus to black progress. Any serious discussion of race must address that reality."---Americanpowerblog

"A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one’s family, contributed to the erosion of black families--a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened."---Barack Obama

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 8:21 PM | Report abuse

Tom

You have a good point: it was really stupid for the democrats in the House to vote against repeal - it is silly.

They just don't get it.

Perhaps the country can figure out a way to stop giving the democrats gerrymandered districts in 2020 - that would make them more RESPONSIVE to the people.

It is the gerrymanding that is fueling the Liberal Agenda - not the American People.

We have to stop the democrats from having easy, stacked, gerrymandered districts.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:24 PM | Report abuse

When Giffords is fully cognitive, I hope she rips into Palin.

Posted by: filmnoia | January 19, 2011
======================================

Better she rip into pinko dirtbags like you who seem to have much in common with the shooter, while Palin is in no way culpable.

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 8:26 PM | Report abuse

Last summer, polls in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Wisconsin leaned heavily Republican.

If that trend continues, many of these other democratic seats are going to go Republican.

The democrats are going to be sitting defending New Jersey and West Virginia -


The Senate should have a vote on health care - their attitude should be if Obama wanted to PRESS ahead last year, Obama should be the one taking all the heat with the veto.


Yea, that wouldn't look good would it? Obama IMPOSING his health care bill on the country AGAINST THE WILL of Congress this time.

The whole thing is a disaster.

Should I list all the Obama taxes ?

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:29 PM | Report abuse

How about we make it simple for these GOP prima donnas. Keep the healthcare you have that is paid by the rest of us, and offer every citizen who wants it, the same plan that you partake in as a govt employee?
Any of you Right Wingers here have a problem with that?

Posted by: filmnoia | January 19, 2011
======================================

How about we make it simple for you? See if you can't find some kind of job; then you can actually contribute to society and become a taxpayer rather than just running your mouth and sponging off the taxpayer.

-------

rukidding7 wrote of filmnoia:

"You CAN do better...you are a smart person."

You're too kind, ru. I don't know whatever gave you that idea. Filmnoia has been posting here for some time, and I've yet to see one of his posts that wasn't pure infantile drivel. He makes cao look smart.

Posted by: Brigade | January 19, 2011 8:31 PM | Report abuse

It's not often I disagree with Benen but I do here...

"That said, the political discourse would benefit from officials refraining from making Goebbels-related arguments. Yes, that means you, Rep. Steve Cohen (D) of Tennessee."

References to Goebbels, as I said earlier, are entirely appropriate so long as the reference relates to propaganda techniques.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 19, 2011 8:35 PM | Report abuse

How about we make it simple for these GOP prima donnas. Keep the healthcare you have that is paid by the rest of us, and offer every citizen who wants it, the same plan that you partake in as a govt employee?
Any of you Right Wingers here have a problem with that?

Posted by: filmnoia | January 19, 2011


_________________________


Your arrogance still prevents you from understanding the issue.

The issue is: the American People DO NOT want to PAY for the additional benefits.


The democrats are STILL PRETENDING that all these extra benefits grow on trees - and that no one has to PAY for anything.

The democrats are still pretending that the American People are OK with a MASSIVE GROWTH IN GOVERNMENT. They do NOT want it.

Not sure how else to explain it. However, the democrats are worse than tone-deaf - they simply are UNABLE to understand.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:39 PM | Report abuse

Greg

Why haven't you banned Liam for participating in a SMEAR campaign against an innocent citizen on the pages of this lofty blog???


Why haven't you banned rukidding (Bobby Lee) for his Racist hate speech on the pages of this lofty blog ???


Why haven't you banned 12barbluesAgain for bringing Cao this blog, knowing exactly what he would do? She did it to act out on her destructive tendencies. She knew what she was doing, and even said she was proud of it and defended on it on the pages of this lofty blog.


.
.

I would have to say that a CIVIL discussion would have to involve both sides being honest.

I believe that since Obama came in, too many democrats have been deceptive, and refuse to acknowledge the obvious lies.


In addition GREG, a fair moderation policy which is not slanted against people based on their political views would help the situation - this is how third world dictatorships operate - not Americans who believe in Equal Protection and equal application of the laws.

____________________

Clearly, if we are to have Civil discourse, the democrat have to realize that many of the they things SAID AND DONE have been PROVOCATIVE.


1) We have to agree that Bait and Switch is illegitimate

2) We have to agree to be honest

3) Deceptive campaign themes have to be eliminated.

4) When an official does not live up to his campaign themes, supporters should be honest about that - instead of feeling the obligation to deceive and lie in support of the official.

5) False charges of racism have to stop - as all forms of name-calling. Including making up names to attack people (birther-haters)


.


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:43 PM | Report abuse

One thing I think both right and left here would agree upon is that beaucoup voters are very poorly informed.
Leno's street interviews etc show us that most can't name any office holder but the President, the 3 branches of the Fed govt, etc.

I wonder if all the healthy 20-30 yr olds looked up from Facebook on their IPod, took out thier earphones last year, and know they will be forced by law to buy Obamacare or pay a fine?

Or did they think it is "free" medical care like Medicare/Medicaid? Time will tell. Can hardly wait.

Personally, when I was young and healthy I just carried good Comprehensive Auto/Bike/Boat insurance since wrecks were my primary risk.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 19, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

Tom

You have an excellent point - Obama's new health care law PREVENTS people from buying health insurance tailored to their needs and what they want.

For instance, catastrophic health insurance will be OUTLAWED - everyone has to buy a big package of benefits, whether you want it or not.

It's just another form of a tax.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:51 PM | Report abuse

Funny how the democrats lost the election

then they jam through a lame duck session that no one wants.

They provoke some Bush hater who can see that Obama did not stick to his own words - into mass murder


And now the Republicans havent had a chance to do anything

But the democrats are running around with a poll saying that everyone agrees with them now.


The DELUSION is unbelievable.


it is one delusion after another. I really wonder if there is even medication for that.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 8:56 PM | Report abuse

It's about time people started talking about Republicans lying to the American people. Nothing but good can come from that discussion because theyve been getting away with it only because the press has been so cowed by the "liberal media" slam that they've given the lies a pass.

Objectivity shouldn't extend into accepting falsehood.

Can we make this discussion retroactive and talk about the ginning up of the Iraq invasion? Not too late for some arrests. Perle, Feith, Abrahms, Wolfowitz, Cheney.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 19, 2011 9:03 PM | Report abuse

"Nazis, Commies, Fascists, Libs, Lefties, Cons, Rethuglikkkans, Hippies, Democraps, Bushitler, ObaMao, Obamavich and Pelosiyeva"... Whatever! bring the free speech!

I'm an "Eliminationist" when it comes to Political Correctness, the overly sensitive and direct or indirect Speech Codes --- take it all out behind the barn and hit it in the head with an axe.

Everybody say what you want how you want!... remember that it reflects on you and helps others judge you. Sometimes it is great to rant, just know your venue.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 19, 2011 9:06 PM | Report abuse

I really have been thinking about the Civil discussion proposals


Few of the democrats want to begin to discuss the groundrules for such a proposal.

The Bait and Switch has to go - and anything gained from Bait and Switch has to be agreed to be illegitimate.

Anyway - it appears the democrats are afraid to come up with better basis for discussion.

The democrats WANT to shut down discussions with False Charge of Racism. Instead of opening a file in Hawaii, they rather call people names. The liberals are so desperate, they really don't care if the "bait and switch, jam through" is Undemocratic.


After all the complaints from the democrats over years that Bush Lied, the democrats have sure been doing a great deal of lying.

After all the complaints from the democrats that Bush may have done something unconstitutional, the democrats ODDLY seem unconcerned about the Constitutionally of their own proposals.

The whole thing adds up to being extremely disingenuous - shocking in the light of the tone of the 2008 election.

Why is it that the democrats NOW seem comfortable doing the same things that they complained about Bush.

__________________

Anyway - at this point, the nation is coming to the conclusion that the democrats ONLY said they wanted to be Civil because they lost the discussion last week horribly.

So now, the democrats are simply shifting the discussion - AND AGAIN THE DEMOCRATS HAVE ZERO INTENTIONS OF FOLLOWING THEIR OWN WORDS.


Let's see it.

Let's see a few democrats here banned for clear violations. That would be a start.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 9:16 PM | Report abuse

How dare anyone mention Goebbels, when talking about The Party that called President Obama a Fascist Nazi, Muslim Non American.

Why Newt, said in his book, that President Obama is a greater threat to America than The Nazis or The Soviet Union were.

But yes; suddenly the Right Wingers are all wetting their beds, because of the mention of of how The Big Lie lead to the slaughter of millions.

==

Go to the head of the class.

What's even more annoying is how the wingers instantly take their cues and proclaim that they believe the lie. We've always been at war with Eastasia. Death panels, yup. Obama a Kenyan Muslim, yup, we believe it. Talk about enslaved minds.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 19, 2011 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Obama sure appears to be a Muslim - and I believe in Freedom of Religion so it doesn't really bother me.

However, even if Obama was a Muslim, he should respect the feelings of Americans that a mosque should not be at Ground Zero in New York.

The Muslim in Manhatten can worship in any of the over 100 mosques in the City.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 9:20 PM | Report abuse

So, let me get this straight: Democrats get to invoke the HOLOCAUST and call Republicans "Nazis" for supposed lies, but Sarah Palin cannot accurately point out "blood libel"? Did you guys even READ the statement from Holocaust survivors?

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 19, 2011 9:21 PM | Report abuse

My the trolls must be in panic mode, I'm only seeing about a quarter of the posts.

I don't wonder. Claiming to believe those lies is the very foundation of that nuttiness that we call "conservatism" these days. I remember when conservatism referred to a political philosophy of limited government and military hawkishess, not the embrace of falsehoodm paranoia and apocalytpic Christianity.

Going placidly amid the noise and haste,

Cao Thiên
Cần Thơ, Việt Nam

Posted by: caothien9 | January 19, 2011 9:24 PM | Report abuse

Greg

Why haven't you banned Liam for participating in a SMEAR campaign against an innocent citizen on the pages of this lofty blog???


Why haven't you banned rukidding (Bobby Lee) for his Racist hate speech on the pages of this lofty blog ???


Why haven't you banned 12barbluesAgain for bringing Cao this blog, knowing exactly what he would do? She did it to act out on her destructive tendencies. She knew what she was doing, and even said she was proud of it and defended on it on the pages of this lofty blog.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 9:29 PM | Report abuse

References to Goebbels, as I said earlier, are entirely appropriate so long as the reference relates to propaganda techniques.

==

Talking about propaganda and falsehood without mentioning Goebbels is like talking about speculative religious fiction without mentioning Philip K. Dick.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 19, 2011 9:29 PM | Report abuse

@ 9:29... "Phil Dick" that just Nuts!

Posted by: TominColorado | January 19, 2011 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Greg

Why haven't you banned Liam for participating in a SMEAR campaign against an innocent citizen on the pages of this lofty blog???


Why haven't you banned rukidding (Bobby Lee) for his Racist hate speech on the pages of this lofty blog ???


Why haven't you banned 12barbluesAgain for bringing Cao this blog, knowing exactly what he would do? She did it to act out on her destructive tendencies. She knew what she was doing, and even said she was proud of it and defended on it on the pages of this lofty blog.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 9:37 PM | Report abuse

After Senate Dems say no to the House's bill the next step is for the House to pass a bill repealing the unconstitutional mandate in ObieCare. After the Senate Dems, or Obie say NO to that, use it as a club during the '12 election cycle.

That's probably what's going to happen anyway.

Posted by: illogicbuster | January 19, 2011 9:42 PM | Report abuse

Forget bannings. It can't hardly be done.
Heck, I think my IP changes whenever I reboot my router when it hangs.
Do that, make a new username and a gmail or yahoo address and I'd be un-banned.

Buck up.
Be Sgt Hulka not Pvt Frances.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 19, 2011 9:53 PM | Report abuse

The more the GOP tilts at this windmill, the more Democrats get to explain what is actually in the bill, which is nothing but good for them.

Let the GOP stand up for insurance companies who deny treatment to kids with cancer. That'll be a real winner in 2012.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 19, 2011 10:02 PM | Report abuse

TominColorado, it's a legitimate question since Greg has banned only CONSERVATIVES.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 19, 2011 10:21 PM | Report abuse

Tom:

With all due respect, my comments are intended to point out hypocrisy in the banning and moderation policies.

Even if the banning is ineffective, the moderation can be better.


For instance, the moderator can insist that certain liberals reduce the nastiness we have seen. Chris Cillizza allowed unbelievably uncivil conduct without saying a word.

I think moderation should include them telling people - not just banning.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Many of the democrats from this blog might just be at the Hu dinner.

You dinner? NO Hu dinner.


If they are, I suppose we can be happy that we have a relatively high level of democrats commenting on the blog.


However, if these REALLY are the idiots running the country, we are in a pack of trouble.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 19, 2011 10:32 PM | Report abuse

Cohen's shot his mouth off before, no biggie.

Why kick about an ineffectual, minority party back-bencher, with a penchant for aural cheese, cracking Alinsky to an empty House? Let him vent, he's the next Grayson.

245-189. And so much more to come.

Posted by: tao9 | January 19, 2011 10:35 PM | Report abuse

Guys, Ok, but commenting so many times saying "why haven't you banned X" so many times a day isn't working and is irritating.

Besides, Chow-Then-Nines arguements are so lame and self-collapsing that I'm suprised it hasn't created a gravity-well singularity and sucked him in.
Perhaps it did awhile ago and what we are now observing is the anti-matter alternative universe presence of his former being.
That would explain a lot of my observations.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 19, 2011 10:46 PM | Report abuse

"...gravity well singularity..."

heh

Posted by: tao9 | January 19, 2011 10:58 PM | Report abuse

Tom

Understand your point however for some reason Cao is able to prevent himself from falling into the gravity well

Perhaps because he has no mass


Anyway the garbage from the liberals has been going on in these blogs for years. So the chance to prove a point and silence them for just this round is irresistable

Obama has caused a great deal of trouble in this country and for what?


Obama's family is basically immigrant. The black side of his family has no grievance from Jim Crow.

Obama is basically stirring up racial tensions for his own personal benefit

And the liberals have backed him up because they want vengeance for Bush and the think Obama annoys people

That is the main reason they like Obama

Posted by: OrangeDogs | January 19, 2011 11:08 PM | Report abuse

There are few reasons a supposedly rational person would risk the well being of their country and vote for a completely unqualified and inexperienced person

To throw aside all consideration of qualifications

Perhaps mass insanity. I would imagine that several graduate students could earn their PhDs studying this mass irrationality.

I think the liberals just wanted to annoy people and that explains it. It meant that much to them to annoy people

And they wonder why the liberals are driving people over the edge.

Posted by: OrangeDogs | January 19, 2011 11:18 PM | Report abuse

Some opinion re health care deform:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2011%2F01%2F19%2FED0U1HAFJH.DTL

Posted by: actuator | January 19, 2011 11:20 PM | Report abuse

OD:
Good points! "no mass" - LOL.

Personally I think Obama originally ran in order to get the VP pick from Hillary or make a big enough mark for next time.

But Edwards sucked away enough Hillary votes that Obama started winning - particulary in caucus states where "Chicago rules" work. Then the Superdelegates selected him and put him over the top.

Like the dog that caught the tire or the turtle on a fencepost, he didn't really want it, doesn't know what to do with it, but can't climb down.

... Later guys, early trip to Wyo tomorrow. Thanks for the dialog.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 19, 2011 11:27 PM | Report abuse

So what's priority number one for the new Republican House majority?

Unemployment? Deficits? Two dead-end wars? No.

A "symbolic" vote.

Now that's some leadership.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 20, 2011 12:37 AM | Report abuse

245-189. And so much more to come.

==

You bet. Voters will look back on two years of symbolic votes, frivolous investigations, stalling, and turn-the-clock back rhetoric and say "let's give these guys more seats."

Republicans have had years years to do something about healthcare and all they've done is babble about their precious free market, the same free market that saw fit to leave fifty million with o coverage and make executives obscenely rich while droppng patients right after a diagnosis.

Now they have the House back and it's nothing but infantilism.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 20, 2011 2:08 AM | Report abuse

Just another thanks to Kevin -- I dropped out for a bit 'cause it was getting a little crowded with the whining about who needs banned, etc. (and I access using mobile broadband, which is metered... and these threads can get really big!), but I decided to put Kevin's script to good use, and just started hiding all the victims who weren't contributing anything meaningful to any discussion. It's much more manageable, now.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 20, 2011 3:32 AM | Report abuse

@jpres: it won't save you any downloading, the processing that hides the trolls is after the HTML is all dowloaded.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 20, 2011 4:27 AM | Report abuse

WalMart is responding to Michelke Obama and working with food producers to reduce fat and salt and aim for healthier eating.

We're coming for you, conservatives. Not even WalMart is safe anymore.

No ammo before 7AM.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 20, 2011 4:56 AM | Report abuse

@cao -- Yes; I'm familiar with how client-side javascript works. ;) Just sayin', when it heats up, I can't afford to keep refreshing to keep up. It's easy to forget just how big the thread is when one or two bozos who eat up the max character limit every posting are never seen. :)
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 20, 2011 5:40 AM | Report abuse

Greg, could you please limit the number of posts a person could make in an hour ? Something like four or less. It's tiresome to sift thru the blather from the same people who are posting nonstop. Thanks !

Posted by: Falmouth1 | January 20, 2011 6:01 AM | Report abuse

Tom writes

Personally I think Obama originally ran in order to get the VP pick from Hillary or make a big enough mark for next time.

But Edwards sucked away enough Hillary votes that Obama started winning - particulary in caucus states where "Chicago rules" work. Then the Superdelegates selected him and put him over the top.

Like the dog that caught the tire or the turtle on a fencepost, he didn't really want it, doesn't know what to do with it, but can't climb down.


>>>>>>>>> I agree.

However, I have wondered about the actual dynamics of Obama's nomination. My thoughts have gone this way. There were Senators who wanted Obama to run in order to draw votes away from Hillary.

Their objective was to stall Hillary below 50%, so they could somehow negotiate some other candidate into the nomination. However then something funny happened - Edwards went off the reservation as the most likely negotiated candidate because of the love child, and Biden and Dodd never picked up enough steam to appear viable.

I think Biden and Dodd were in there to be the negotiated winners - perhaps Dodd more than Biden. Kennedy was behind Dodd for the better part of the race.

The SuperTuesday dynamic really hurt everyone's plans. Hillary dug her heals in - but there were already enough delegates already decided that the race was over. All that was left was to deny Hillary the delegates from Michigan and Florida. Had the media consistently added Michigan and Florida into Hillary's delegate totals, there may have been a different outcome.

Unexpectedly, there was a great amount of opposition in the SuperDelegate ranks to Hillary, something that few people expected - those people were reluctant to commit, but they really wanted to go to someone other than Hillary.

The democratic party appeared to want a "default candidate" to Hillary. It appears that the "set-up" of Doddd as that default failed, and Obama got it by accident.

The bottom line is this: if Hillary was never in the race, perhaps the entire primary season would have been completely different. It seems that Obama was a product of people wanted to get away from Hillary - and they just ended up there with Obama as the viable alternative. That is different from the entire electorate deciding among several strong candidates.

Hillary drew so many voters OUT of the field, that the remaining democratic primary voters ended up picking the candidate - sort of a reverse way to look at it.


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 6:12 AM | Report abuse

Falmouth1 in response to your 6:01 AM

How about if we limit the Conservatives and liberals to the same amount of comments?

What has happened in the past is the Obama campaign has put 8-10 paid bloggers on in one shift - that would give them 40 comments to the paid trolls.

The average citizen would have to sit there and see the comments board dominated by the paid special interests and the Obama paid trolls.

Your proposal is sort of like a reversal of Campaign Finance Reform in which the big money is limited per election - you want to limit the little guy's right to respond to the flood of the big guys.

It is the little guy responding to the Obama paid operations - that is the situation here on the blog.


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 6:20 AM | Report abuse

Wow. Mainly trolls posting non-stop throughout the night. caothien9 talking to no one, and then the moronic sock puppet jprestonian appears. I guess it's possible they're only reading their own posts.

We get to see just how radical are many of the lefties who post here. Just a few days ago they were opining about how a political campaign map targeting congressional districts may have inspired a nutter's shooting spree and was definitely over the line. Remember all the blather about how we should tone down the rhetoric? Then another nutter steps up and compares Republicans to Nazis but somehow that isn't over the top. Well, many liberals in the media have condemned the statement; but the nutter himself has refused to apologize and many of the pinko nutters who frequent this blog think the comparison was appropriate. But they can't figure out how Republicans did so well in November. LOL. Ironically, these are the same sort of people with the same slavish mindsets who allowed the Nazis to come to power in the first place. It reminds one of caothien9's theory that American slaves were better off in slavery because they knew where they belonged and didn't have to worry about the troublesome decisions required of free people.

Posted by: Brigade | January 20, 2011 6:38 AM | Report abuse

Brigade

You are right - to read the media this week, Obama and the liberals are doing so well in the polls that they should have won the election last November.

Except we all know perfectly well that the opposition to the liberals around the country has not dropped one iota.

The liberals really have lost their minds - now we hear them wanting to restrict the First Amendment, as well as the Second Amendment.

This is on top of the trampling that Obama has done of the 10th Amendment.

At this point, the liberals appear to want to trash the entire Bill of Rights - the only provisions they want to keep apply to illegal aliens who are breaking Federal law. The liberals want to use the Bill of Rights to ENABLE people to break Federal law, not to protect them from government abuse.

The key is just that: the Bill of Rights is designed to restrain government - NOT the people. It is designed to curb abuses by the government.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 6:56 AM | Report abuse

appy polly loggies, jpres, you probably know a lot more about it than I do. I did all my work at the middle tier, browser klutz.

I just wish someone would do a lynx port to the iPad.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 20, 2011 6:58 AM | Report abuse

OK Kids!!!

Today's word is symbolic.

S-Y-M-B-O-L-I-C.

Let's see how many times you can say it today!!!

We'll be counting the number of times so we hope you really get out their with all your little buddies and say:

☺♫☺♫☺♫ Symbolic ☺♫☺♫☺♫

{{{predictagiggle}}}

Posted by: tao9 | January 20, 2011 7:10 AM | Report abuse

Tao

I am taken aback at how the Obama people are able to use their talking points to get people to disregard actions by Congress.

All during 2009, the democrats moved health care through the committee process, and everytime all we heard was this committee does NOT matter, this is not the final bill, please disregard all the positions the democrats are taking. At least disregard those positions in order to attack the democrats.

Obama basically moved the health care bill through Congress saying that he wasn't in favor of ANYTHING. This put a drag on the criticism of his program.

However, it also put a drag on the support for parts of the health care bill.

Few people knew what was in the bill, to support it. This garbage about the pollsters finding "support for parts of the bill without anyone considering the costs of the whole bill" is just a pile of crap.

________________


And then Obama dumps a 2,000 page bill on the internet in the middle of the night - and everyone is supposed to finally READ what Obama was in favor of all along -

Obama purposely HALTED all debate and discussion on the individual portions of the bill.

The tax provisions in particular - the American People NEED to see the FULL LIST OF TAXES - which are ALL a drag on the economy.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 7:21 AM | Report abuse

Would you like "pretense" better, tao?

Posted by: caothien9 | January 20, 2011 7:29 AM | Report abuse

Lieberman

I think an important aspect to think about here, the Linda McMahon race showed a side to Connecticut that few saw.

I believe the idea is that Linda McMahon's WWE/WWF association gave her an amount of negatives that she could not overcome.

However, the democrats have reasoned, I believe correctly, that a Republican well-funded, but without the negatives of McMahon, would win.


Lieberman has had a different calculation - a three-way race. Apparently that wasn't going well for him. Remember last time, he ran against an extremely weak and underfunded Republican on one side and the far left Ned Lamont on the other side - so there was room for Lieberman to take a good number of Republican votes plus the moderate democrats.

The moderates this time are more liberal - and probably would seek to defend Obama and go with a liberal.

Plus the democrats may not have a really good candidate next time - which would tilt the whole thing Republican if Lieberman ran.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 7:36 AM | Report abuse

Kennedy:

The passing of the torch from the World War II generation to the generation that got us into Vietnam.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 7:47 AM | Report abuse

Symbolic


The American People have an election - elect a new House of Representatives.

And the new Congress EXPRESSES THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE with yesterdays vote.

And Obama and his poeple KICK THAT EXPRESSION TO THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, calling it "symbolic."


That is DISRESPECT.

Obama is a joke - his people are a joke - the American People are getting sick of this attitude. Period. The liberals need a SERIOUS ATTITUDE ADJUSTMENT.

The use of the word "symobolic" is NOT CIVIL, it is DISRESPECTFUL.


And the democrats keep on claiming they are not PROVOKING PEOPLE.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 8:06 AM | Report abuse

Cohen (D-Lunacy) has merely updated his repertoire on his attacks against the Tea Party and Republicans.

Nine months ago, they were the Klan with better fashion sense...
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/04/03/house-democrat-all-thats-missing-from-the-tea-party-are-the-robes-and-hoods/

...now they’re Nazis using the tactics of Josef Goebbels.

One might think being the target of a nasty anti-semitic slur and compared to a Klansman himself (by a fellow Democrat in his home district) might have taught Cohen a lesson in civility before the New Tone became the new Ugg Boots on Capitol Hill.

But alas, as WaPo pundits can see for themselves, Cohen still suffers from his chronic case of cerebral-rectalitis.

Will WaPo pundits rush to their podiums to condemn Cohen for demonizing the opposition?

*not holding breath*

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 20, 2011 8:13 AM | Report abuse

Cohen is a part of an Obama plot to try to get the jewish vote back to the democrats.

The Sarah Palin attacks is a part of this.

It is so transparent how ridiculous this is.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 8:15 AM | Report abuse

TominColorado said:
"They want UK/Canada style national health care, but that would require siezing doctors practices and hospitals then making them work for for the Feds."

I'm Canadian. You've been seriously misinformed (not uncommon). Refer to wikipedia on the canadian health care system.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 20, 2011 8:25 AM | Report abuse

Please note :

Lieberman retires - opening up those jewish supporters who have gone independent

Sarah Palin gets attacked on a 500-year old phrase that no one has ever heard of as a being a jewish slur


then Cohen starts calling everyone who wants fiscal restraint - NAZIS


And yet, Obama is one who is attacking his political opponensts.... like the Nazis


OH, no, is that comparision not right? Am I now being politically incorrect?


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 20, 2011 8:28 AM | Report abuse

NRO has a poll up inquiring whether the healthcare bill will be repealed fully, implemented fully or implemented in part.

59% of responders say fully repealed.

So, how this such a percentage of NRO readers get this misinformed?

Posted by: bernielatham | January 20, 2011 8:37 AM | Report abuse

All, Morning Roundup posted:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/the_morning_plum_170.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | January 20, 2011 8:41 AM | Report abuse

NRO = National Review Online. National Review is a conservative magazine founded IINM by that prissy narcissist Wm. F. Buckley.

You're asking how conservatives could be misinformed?

Pull up a chair.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 20, 2011 8:57 AM | Report abuse

Clueless Democrats promoting "Fear" because they have no other argument for their 2,000 Page Monstrosity! Saying "people will die" if ObamaCare is repealed... what FOOLS!
THESE DEMOCRATS HAVEN'T EVEN READ THE BILL!
THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT OBAMACARE IS ABOUT!

Posted by: ohioan | January 20, 2011 9:39 AM | Report abuse

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