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Posted at 8:10 AM ET, 01/ 9/2011

Sunday Open Thread

By Greg Sargent

The argument will never end, and it will never have a clear winner.

By Greg Sargent  | January 9, 2011; 8:10 AM ET
Categories:  Miscellaneous  
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Next: On the Gabrielle Giffords shooting

Comments

For those of you who don't check the previous thread this AM, great stuff yesterday, thanks, appreciate it as always.

Posted by: Greg Sargent | January 9, 2011 8:13 AM | Report abuse

<spray of anomalously stable third generation fermions>

Arrival!

Where were we?

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 8:14 AM | Report abuse

How's the hole in yer jaw, Greg? G0tte temporary bridge?

Hey, you should forward RFR's stuff to the FBI.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 8:16 AM | Report abuse

"Shooting throws spotlight on state of U.S. political rhetoric"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/09/arizona.shooting.rhetoric/

Read it and weep for our nation.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 8:19 AM | Report abuse

Greg, are you kidding? The comments section on this site has become all but unbearable.

Posted by: AllButCertain | January 9, 2011 8:23 AM | Report abuse

I'm sure the right is anxious to put this incident behind them. It gives hate speech a bad name.

Has anyone checked out the righty sites? Redstate, stormfront, etc? What's the ratio between repudiating this guy and celebrating him?

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 8:23 AM | Report abuse

"Dr. Manny Alvarez tells Fox News that Giffords is in for a "long fight," and though survival from a gunshot wound to the head is rare, it is not unprecedented. About 5 percent will survive and it depends where exactly the shot took place."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/tucson-shooting-hospital-update_n_806278.html

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 8:43 AM | Report abuse

Greg, you're welcome. As I said, I am "shocked and saddened to hear about the terrible tragedy that took place in Tucson [yesterday]. It is appalling that anyone would commit such unthinkable violence against Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, her staff, a sitting federal judge, and the many other victims and families impacted. These heinous crimes have no place in America, and they are especially grievious when committed against our elected officials. Spirited debate is desireable in our country, but it only should be the clash of ideas."

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 9, 2011 8:44 AM | Report abuse

ABC

Thanks for the suggestion of "The Warmth of Other Suns", asked and received for Christmas and I just started it.

Agree, re PlumLine, it takes a certain amount of intestinal fortitude to hang out here anymore. The occasional honest debate may or may not be worth it.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 9, 2011 8:49 AM | Report abuse

A bullet passing all the way through her brain? She'll probably be a vegetable. Pity we don't have Bill Frisk to weigh in. And even if she has any remaining cognitive ability she'll likely be aphasic and qradruplegic. She's been murdered. So have a half dozen others.

No it wasn't Palin's homicidal roadmap to GOP ascendency that pushed this nutjob to his fit of pique, but that roadmap was so explicit in its intent and in naming targets for assassination that Palin needs to be seen as directly inciting the act and, heaven help us,others like it.

No, this won't finish her in politics; she was already finished in politics the day she resigned her governorship to cash in on her fifteen minutes. What's followed has been a slow sleazy slide as she ramps up the rhetoric to keep the cameras pointed at her.

Hate speech will hit a bump in the road and a few of the more canny orators thereof will make perfunctory statements of repudiation, hold their breath, then go right back to it, unchastened and certainly unshamed.

It's not like the right has anything else.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

ABC:

"Greg, are you kidding?"

The degree of Greg's lack of good judgment recently has surprised even me.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 9:04 AM | Report abuse

Some opinion on political rhetoric as related to the tragedy in Arizona:

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/01/08/sarah-palin-blamed-by-bloggers-for-shooting-of-gabrielle-gifford/

Posted by: actuator | January 9, 2011 9:14 AM | Report abuse

actuator, wasn't Karl Rove blamed for Hurricane Katrina hitting New Orleans in the first place?

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 9, 2011 9:18 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for wasting 45 seconds of my life with that rubbish.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 9:18 AM | Report abuse

Clearly, the democrats have taken inflammatory positions all year long.

If Obama was a real man, he would admit that his own ACTIONS may have PROVOKED this person.

Obama should ADMIT that he promised to be bipartisan, and he has been anything but that.

Clearly, the democrats in Washington have inflamed the poltical atmosphere in this nation.

The lame duck session - after losing the November election - is just one CLEAR EXAMPLE.

The liberals should take a long, hard look at themselves.

This country deserves better than the liberals who refuse to accept the results of elections.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 8, 2011 5:14 PM | Report abuse

I agree with RainForestRising.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 8, 2011 5:19 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 9:20 AM | Report abuse

I just skip comments now unless I'm on a pc w/ greasemonkey. Rainforrest was clearly pleased with the shooting yesterday and went as far as justifying it because of her voting record.

Oh, he also blamed you Greg.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 9, 2011 9:25 AM | Report abuse

In politics the movers and shakers are often blamed for the actions of individuals, groups and even the forces of nature if those actions can be used by opponents to persuade the ignorant, uneducated and stupid (possibly the majority) to vote a particular way.

Posted by: actuator | January 9, 2011 9:26 AM | Report abuse

In politics the movers and shakers are often blamed for the actions of individuals,

==

Wow, really?

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 9:32 AM | Report abuse

The degree of Greg's lack of good judgment recently has surprised even me.

==

Even you? Even you? Even a jaded, seen-it-all, harboring-no-illusions, crusty-but-benign, been-around-the-block guy like you?

Wow Greg it sounds like the degree of your lack of good judgment is cause for concern!

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 9:36 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne, what happened to you "no longer acknowledg[ing]" us conservatives? Try Kevin's Troll Blocker. It works wonders.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 9, 2011 9:41 AM | Report abuse

cao:

"Even a jaded, seen-it-all, harboring-no-illusions, crusty-but-benign, been-around-the-block guy like you?"

No. Even a guy who has never thought he had very good judgment in the first place.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 9:41 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne:

"You will see that the Conservatives here -- Scott, QB, Battleground, Clawrence, Brigade, etc. -- exhibited not the least bit of compassion or human feeling over these murders."

And, of course, the reluctance to engage in maudlin displays of public emotion with complete strangers is undeniable proof of a lack of caring and compassion.

Get over your self-righteous self, wbgonne.
wbgonne:

"You will see that the Conservatives here -- Scott, QB, Battleground, Clawrence, Brigade, etc. -- exhibited not the least bit of compassion or human feeling over these murders."

And, of course, the reluctance to engage in maudlin displays of public emotion with complete strangers is undeniable proof of a lack of caring and compassion.

Get over your self-righteous self, wbgonne.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 8:50 AM | Report abuse

Scott,

Indeed.

I always wonder, when I see those "public" displays of compassion and "prayers for the victims," how many prayers are actually going to be said and tears shed. Not that I doubt compassion is felt, but I sense that the public display is often the extent of it.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

-------------

Psychopaths.
Scott,

Indeed.

I always wonder, when I see those "public" displays of compassion and "prayers for the victims," how many prayers are actually going to be said and tears shed. Not that I doubt compassion is felt, but I sense that the public display is often the extent of it.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 9:46 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne:

"You will see that the Conservatives here -- Scott, QB, Battleground, Clawrence, Brigade, etc. -- exhibited not the least bit of compassion or human feeling over these murders."

And, of course, the reluctance to engage in maudlin displays of public emotion with complete strangers is undeniable proof of a lack of caring and compassion.

Get over your self-righteous self, wbgonne.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 8:50 AM | Report abuse

--------------

Scott,

Indeed.

I always wonder, when I see those "public" displays of compassion and "prayers for the victims," how many prayers are actually going to be said and tears shed. Not that I doubt compassion is felt, but I sense that the public display is often the extent of it.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

-------------

Psychopaths.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 9:48 AM | Report abuse

Just remember wbg that their Prophet Ayn Rand never understood why some people think they should be kind to each other. There was, after all, nothing in it for them.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 9:52 AM | Report abuse

This is off topic but Simon Johnson, and he's not alone, is not too happy with the choice of Bill Daley. What we don't need in this administration is another banker. I mentioned my concern last week re "who will have the president's ear" and was talked down (well, not quite) by other so-called progressives or liberals.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Top bankers, including Bill Daley, have pulled off a complete snow job -- including since the crisis broke in fall 2008. They have put forward their special interests while claiming to represent the general interest. Business and other groups, of course, do this all the time. But the difference here is the scale of the too big to subsidy -- measured in terms of its likely future impact on our citizenship and our fiscal solvency, this will be devastating.

Most smart people in the nonfinancial world understand that the big banks have become profoundly damaging to the rest of the private sector. The idea that the president needed to bring a top banker into his inner circle in order to build bridges with business is beyond ludicrous.

Bill Daley now controls how information is presented to and decisions are made by the president. Daley's former boss, Jamie Dimon, is the most dangerous banker in America -- presumably he now gets even greater access to the Oval Office. Daley is on the record as opposing strong consumer protection for financial products; Elizabeth Warren faces an even steeper uphill battle. Important regulatory appointments, such as the succession to Sheila Bair at the FDIC, are less likely to go to sensible people. And in all our interactions with other countries, for example around the G20 but also on a bilateral basis, we will pursue the resolutely pro-big finance views of the second Clinton administration."

Posted by: lmsinca | January 9, 2011 9:54 AM | Report abuse

Chairman Cao, nice example of taking a comment out of context. But then from you it is to be expected.

Posted by: actuator | January 9, 2011 9:56 AM | Report abuse

BTW Chairman, IMO opinion you are obviously among the possible majority that I cited.

Posted by: actuator | January 9, 2011 9:57 AM | Report abuse

I remember my anger on 9-11. Once in the past two years I shared an enraged political sentiment with my colleagues - after watching the investment bankers testify. As to the first example, chasing OBL and his henchmen seemed the only option. As to the second example, my sentiment would have to play out in legislation or in the courts, because this is a free country, a nation of laws.


When I read

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/09/arizona.shooting.rhetoric/

I thought back to my time as a prosecutor in the late 60s. Yes, public calls to violence seemed to encourage the unhinged, in hindsight, and cops always worried about them. My guess is that the Pima Sheriff voiced a continuing common concern and frustration in law enforcement.

That he directed his criticism at inflammatory right wing voices should not be surprising because those voices had "targeted" the Congresswoman and he himself is a target of the right. Wounded by the insinuation that the right is alone in violent rhetoric, conservatives here have pointed to inflammatory rhetoric of KOS and of various D organs, and even of HRC according to KOS, but that was indeed a stretch. Nevertheless, I think that point is well taken. Incitement to violence, especially over a time period as long as my life, has not been the exclusive territory of wingers on either end of the spectrum.

As several wrote yesterday, including conservative and moderate and liberal commenters, including some wbg will no longer read, cooler political rhetoric would be welcome. As I wrote, it would be a good time for leaders of all persuasions to note that in our free country there is no call for violence as a political expedient.

I will suggest a further step, today. Let a call for violence as a domestic political expedient be good cause for banning a poster here, after a reminder or a warning.

There is no more reason to believe that this demented individual acted from what he perceived as public encouragement than rumors and speculation. But if we place any credence in the general anxiety cops feel about public calls to violence the least we can do, at a moderated blog, is moderate ourselves.

I extend my continued hopes for the wounded victims, and condolences for the bereaved.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 9, 2011 10:01 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for bringing that forward, wb.

Here's a question for you and the other lefties inciting violence against Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, et al:

Which commentators and politicians were responsible for inciting the guy who walked into the Florida school board meeting and started shooting last month? I

I'll help get you started. He was a left-winger, ranting about the rich. His explanatory murder/suicide note about class warfare against the poor could have been written by wbgonne or any number of lefties on this very site. It would be indistinguishable. He listed leftwing websites like Media Matters as places to get "the truth."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fl-school-board-shooter-posted-suicide-note-railing-against-the-rich-linking-to-media-matters/

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 10:05 AM | Report abuse

THE CBO Report comes out.

(Read Carefully democrats, and see if you can follow the numbers.)

The Congressional Budget Office, in an email to Capitol Hill staffers obtained by the Spectator, has said that repealing the national health care law would reduce net spending by $540 billion in the ten year period from 2012 through 2021.


That number represents the cost of the new provisions, minus Medicare cuts. Repealing the bill would also eliminate $770 billion in taxes. It's the tax hikes in the health care law (along with the Medicare cuts) which accounts for the $230 billion in deficit reduction.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Imsinca, if there is a single economist I trust as a policy voice it is Simon Johnson. There are many reasons for this. One is that he has real world financial and managerial experience beyond mere Nobel Prize credentials [he has one, I don't].

So thanks for the quote - wish you had posted the link, but I will find it. :-).

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 9, 2011 10:19 AM | Report abuse

mark, I agree re Johnson, I read basline scenario all the time. Sorry for the omission of the link, here it is.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/simon-johnson/bill-daley-obama-chief-of-staff_b_806341.html

Posted by: lmsinca | January 9, 2011 10:23 AM | Report abuse

lms,

I just read the entire Special Comment you referenced on the prior thread. It's here.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40981503/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/


The entire premise of connecting Loughner to all the conservatives he singles out for criticism appears to have no factual basis at all. True to form, KO broadly smears conservatives and then "admits" one tiny accidental unintentional slip of the tongue once upon a time by himself, before vaguely "apologizing" for any past mistakes.

I don't watch or listen to any of these folks, right or left, with regularity. But I have listened to enough KO rants and special comments and enough Beck and Limbaugh to know for certain that in terms of purveying hate and anger and inciting hate and anger the latter hold no candle to KO. Go back to his unhinged attacks on Bush and Cheney. He nightly lists the worst person in the world.

He fails to acknowledge any of that, so I'm sorry to say I give him zero credit for his meaningless "apology." It's just more or the same KO, basically saying, "Republicans are evil and irresponsible, and they incited this schizophrenic to murder. I'll take responsibility for one small remark one time about Hillary Clinton, but they are the problem."

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 10:25 AM | Report abuse

@AllButCertain: "Greg, are you kidding? The comments section on this site has become all but unbearable."

May I recommend the WaPo Troll Hunter? I've gotten it to to work, pretty much, in Firefox, Google Chrome, Opera and Safari (running SMBL and Greasekit). Firefox requires Greasemonkey plugin, and Opera requires some finagling of advanced preferences to go select a Javascript folder that you've put the WaPo Troll Hunter in. But, if memory serves, most of them work. I think Opera has an issue with WaPo Troll hunter, but the rest work, and I could get Opera working if there was a demand for it.

http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/89140

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 10:29 AM | Report abuse

@cao: "No, this won't finish her in politics; she was already finished in politics the day she resigned her governorship to cash in on her fifteen minutes."

Uh-oh. I almost agree with Cao on something (I think she still may get an appointed position, ambassadorship or czar of something, in the right administration). But I also agree that resigning the governorship to strike that commercial iron while it was hot was the end of her being actually competitive in electoral politics.

This is shaping up to be an odd day indeed.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 10:33 AM | Report abuse

Olbermann blasts from the past:

"Thus the lightning flash reveals not merely a President we have already seen, the one who believes he has a monopoly on current truth.

It now shows us a President who has decided that of all our commanders-in-chief, ever, he alone has had the knowledge necessary to alter and re-shape our inalienable rights.

This is a frightening, and a dangerous, delusion, Mr. President."

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 10:34 AM | Report abuse

More classic KO:

"And now, when just one cooked book gets corrected by an honest auditor, when just one trampling of the inherent and inviolable fairness of government is rejected by an impartial judge, when just one wild-eyed partisan is stopped by the figure of blind justice, this President decides that he, and not the law, must prevail.

I accuse you, Mr. Bush, of lying this country into war.

I accuse you of fabricating in the minds of your own people, a false implied link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.

I accuse you of firing the generals who told you that the plans for Iraq were disastrously insufficient.

I accuse you of causing in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors.

I accuse you of subverting the Constitution, not in some misguided but sincerely-motivated struggle to combat terrorists, but to stifle dissent.

I accuse you of fomenting fear among your own people, of creating the very terror you claim to have fought.

I accuse you of exploiting that unreasoning fear, the natural fear of your own people who just want to live their lives in peace, as a political tool to slander your critics and libel your opponents.

I accuse you of handing part of this Republic over to a Vice President who is without conscience, and letting him run roughshod over it."

"We of this time—and our leaders in Congress, of both parties—must now live up to those standards which echo through our history: Pressure, negotiate, impeach—get you, Mr. Bush, and Mr. Cheney, two men who are now perilous to our Democracy, away from its helm.

For you, Mr. Bush, and for Mr. Cheney, there is a lesser task. You need merely achieve a very low threshold indeed. Display just that iota of patriotism which Richard Nixon showed, on August 9th, 1974."


We don't need to hear calls for responsibility from KO, who is one of the leading popular purveyors of hate and irresponsibility and incitement to violence.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 10:38 AM | Report abuse

qb

Like I said, Olberman's not one of my favorites, but at least he took a "tiny" bit of responsibility for his words. That's all I'm really trying to point out, freedom of speech doesn't mean we're not held accountable to our words, or that just because someone else "started it" we have to try to finish it. We may be able to say whatever we want but we're still responsible for saying it.

It seems to me this would be a great time for a little self-reflection from all of us, me included. When my kids were little I used to go to bed at night and wonder what I might have said or done differently during the day. I think I need to start doing that again, not that you guys are little kids or that my influence here has any meaning, but my own honesty and integrity are still important to me.

Our political leaders have a great deal of influence and their words carry meaning for people, maybe it's time they think about that responsibility a little more.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 9, 2011 10:44 AM | Report abuse

@cao: "Has anyone checked out the righty sites? Redstate, stormfront, etc? What's the ratio between repudiating this guy and celebrating him?"

Well, if you count out the leftwing trolls and poseurs, it's running about 1:0, repudiation to celebration.

As it turns out, there aren't that many Americans that think shooting politicians, killing random civilians, and murdering children is a good idea, or worthy of celebration, on either side of the aisle.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Why? Needing to disagree with someone 100% of the time is every bit as paralytic as the reverse.

You've seen me disagree with nominally liberal positions, e.g. compulsive inclusivity, why would it be shocking that two thinking people on opposite sides of the ideological divide might inadvertently agree on something?

And only a scrupulously doctrinaire proxy-poster (hi, qb! hi, -Jake-claw!) would disagree about Quitter Palin.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 10:45 AM | Report abuse

Quote from Obama


Obama provoked this.


"“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun”

......... Barack Obama, June 14, 2008


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 10:47 AM | Report abuse

Note the implicit presumption that right wingers celebrating an assassination have to be left wing trolls.

There are no "left wing trolls." Never seen one in 15 years on the Net nor before that on dialups.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 10:49 AM | Report abuse

I don't believe this and that is scary...

"The Federal Reserve’s new effort to support the recovery by purchasing $600 billion of Treasury securities will create roughly 700,000 jobs in the private sector, according to a new study by researchers at the central bank.

The study amounts to the first concrete estimate by the Fed of the economic effects of the debt-buying program it announced on Nov. 3. The program has been politically controversial, with conservatives accusing the Fed of printing money, financing the federal deficit and devaluing the dollar."

Yes, that is correct, I said I believe the Federal Reserve is lying, publishing false information, whatever you want to call it.

"The study’s estimate of an increase of 700,000 nonfarm jobs is based on a complex model that the Fed uses to simulate various scenarios for the United States economy. The $600 billion asset-purchase program is an extension of a $1.7 trillion series of purchases of government securities and mortgage bonds that the Fed conducted from December 2008 through March 2010. The strategy is known as quantitative easing, and the new purchases have been popularly known as QE2." NYT

A complex model says 700,000 jobs, eh? Just how complex is this model? Can anyone look at the model or is it top secret eyes only? Thought so.

This is the set up for raising the debt ceiling so we can follow on with QE3, QE4, whatever it takes to borrow the recovery through 2012. Our economy, as a German finance minister declared two years ago, has chosen to take the road to hell (figuratively speaking). The Germans should know. No Kevin, no Godwin money jar clank this time, I am referencing Weimar monetary policy, of course.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 10:49 AM | Report abuse

@lmsinca: "It seems to me this would be a great time for a little self-reflection from all of us, me included. When my kids were little I used to go to bed at night and wonder what I might have said or done differently during the day. I think I need to start doing that again, not that you guys are little kids or that my influence here has any meaning, but my own honesty and integrity are still important to me."

I agree. I suspect people don't do this because (a) we always find something we regret having said, or could have said differently, or some conflict we could had just stayed out of. (b) we (well, I) tend to be slow learners, and after having resolved to temper my words, I say something else, largely untempered, and find myself in exactly the same place I was the last time. Such reflection often comes with a profound sense of non-accomplishment. At least, it does for me. I do stick with it, but sometimes I don't feel like there's much evidence of it.

Or, there's some, but there's never any kind of magical "Ah ha, I've achieved nirvana!" moment. And a few of those would be nice, and probably more motivating.

Vitriol and insults and argument are intellectual booze and cigarettes. Some people know they are bad for them, and they oughta quit, but other people will defend to the death the moral superiority of their pro-smoking, pro-boozing position (and argue that the idea that there is some kind of "health consequence" is a bunch of hogwash. Perhaps not in public forums, but I'm sure some of you have run into folks who see nothing wrong with their over indulgences (I can quite anytime, I'm not an alcoholic, so what I burned down the house, what does that have to do with smoking?), and I sorta see it the same way.

Although in the case of overblown rhetoric, I think most practioners don't even really think they are doing it. They can see it fairly clearly with others (at least, those that disagree with them), but have a hard time (because of the foreshortening of perspective) seeing it with themselves and their friends.

Or, I may be full of hooey. I'm sure someone will enlighten me, if so. ;)

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 10:54 AM | Report abuse

@NY Post:

The congresswoman’s father Spencer Gifford, 75, was rushing to the hospital when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies.

"Yeah," he told The Post. "The whole Tea Party."

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 10:58 AM | Report abuse

@NY Post:

The congresswoman’s father Spencer Gifford, 75, was rushing to the hospital when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies.

"Yeah," he told The Post. "The whole Tea Party."

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 10:58 AM | Report abuse

"For those of you who don't check the previous thread this AM, great stuff yesterday, thanks, appreciate it as always."

Hmmm, had to look back and see what he was talking about and, Holy Toldeo! My guess is that Greg was impressed with our respectful, forthright and altogether edifying discussion of the run up to the Civil War, its consequences, slaving, the 3/5 compromise, constitutional law both in history and modern iteration, the well regulated militia and so on.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 10:58 AM | Report abuse

@shrink: "Our economy, as a German finance minister declared two years ago, has chosen to take the road to hell (figuratively speaking). The Germans should know. No Kevin, no Godwin money jar clank this time, I am referencing Weimar monetary policy, of course. "

I got that from the "two years ago" thing. ;)

"Yes, that is correct, I said I believe the Federal Reserve is lying, publishing false information, whatever you want to call it."

Say it's not so! A group of fallible humans getting together and practicing prevarication, or fooling themselves into believing the absurd? It seems so unlike humanity.

You know what would created 700,000 jobs?

No, you don't, because nobody does. Already, they're trying to tell us they can pick the winner of the Kentucky Derby.

I think your suspicions are well-founded.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 10:58 AM | Report abuse

lms,

I largely agree, and as I've said before, you're probably a better soul than most of us.

The difference, imo, and the reason i'm a bit exercised, is that this is almost always a one-way phenomenon. Clay Duke, for example, who walked into the Florida school board and startted shooting, was a leftwinger amped up on Media Matters and anti-corportist rhetoric. He left an explicit note even listing leftwing websites and quoting Warren Buffett about "class warfare." It was his clear motivation. His "leaving" note literally read like a comment on this very blog.

Fortunately, he was a lousy shot and killed only himself. But I didn't leap to blame Media Matters or Alan Grayson etc., not was there ANY media or official outcry blaming Democrats for their incessant "get the rich" rhetoric. There was no sheriff holding a national press conference blaming KO or Ed Shultz and his "psycho talk" segment.

The guy who flew the airplane into the IRS office was a leftwinger, not a rightwinger. They Discovery Channel terrorist was a leftwing environmentalist. Again, no outcry against the left.

But when this schizo in AZ shoots 20 people there is no shortage of prominent Dems and blog commenters who within hours or even minute are ready to blame the right. There are even commenters like caothien condemning "inflammatory" rhetoric from Palin. (Please, someone show me one thing she ever said that approaches his routine pro-killing hate speech.)

I don't see equivalence here, and I see no reason to pretend it exists. I see a need to respond to the irresponsible accusations of the Ethans, fionas, Jane Fondas, Paul Krugmans, and Clarence Dupkins of the world.


Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 11:00 AM | Report abuse

@ kevin,"Such reflection often comes with a profound sense of non-accomplishment. At least, it does for me. I do stick with it, but sometimes I don't feel like there's much evidence of it.

Or, there's some, but there's never any kind of magical "Ah ha, I've achieved nirvana!" moment. And a few of those would be nice, and probably more motivating. "

You will probably never hear that little voice that says, yes I've achieved that sense of accomplishment completely. We're all imperfect but hopefully still striving. I will tell you though as a parent of children older than yours, you may hear some appreciative words from them someday. For most of us our circle of influence is quite small.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 9, 2011 11:02 AM | Report abuse

Ethan

Your comments are a disgrace to humanity.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 11:03 AM | Report abuse

"Note the implicit presumption that right wingers celebrating an assassination have to be left wing trolls."

Link a few.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 11:05 AM | Report abuse

@cao: "Note the implicit presumption that right wingers celebrating an assassination have to be left wing trolls."

Naturally. Occam's razor and all that.

"There are no 'left wing trolls.' Never seen one in 15 years on the Net nor before that on dialups."

Of course you'd say that. But, I don't think you're a credible witness, RainFo--I mean, Cao.

:)

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 11:05 AM | Report abuse

This is what the Gunman wrote - and he was CLEARLY REFERRING TO OBAMA WHEN HE WROTE THESE WORDS:


The Gunman asks:


What's government if words don't have meaning???


____________________________


The gunman is CLEARLY REFERRING TO OBAMA'S 2008 CAMPAIGN WORDS .......


Hear that Obama???


What is bipartisanship, if you refuse to meet with Republicans to negotiate after you are elected???


What is transparency, if you refuse to sign a release opening the file in Hawaii?


What is post-racial, if you insist on allowing your supports to LEVEL FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM???


What is post-partisanship, if you insist on reconciliation to impose a hyper-partisan agenda on the American People???


The DECEPTIONS AND LIES of the democrats DROVE THIS SHOOTER.


Take responsibility.


What is responsibility if you are seeking ways to blame the Tea Party???


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 11:07 AM | Report abuse

@qb: "'Note the implicit presumption that right wingers celebrating an assassination have to be left wing trolls.' Link a few."

He's referring to me. And that is my presumption. Like certain signage at the Tea Party rallies. I do not, however, believe they are getting paid to do it.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 11:07 AM | Report abuse

A group of people do not spend the past two years inflaming the political atmosphere

.... and purposely getting people angry at them


.... and ignoring the election in Massachusetts

..... and pushing through their agenda with "reconciliation"


.... and ignoring the November election

.... and ignoring that they lost the November election


... and continuing to push through their liberal agenda in a lame duck session after they lost the election

---- AND NOT EXPECT TO PROVOKE SOMEONE INTO A VIOLENT ACT

the democrats ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVOKING THIS ACT


THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT GUILTY OF MANSLAUGHTER

Obama should resign immediately.

People have died because of Obama's arrogance and Obama's refusal to be bipartisan,


Obama's refusal to be post-racial


Obama's refusal to be transparent


Obama's insistence on LYING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE


Obama is GUILTY

Case closed.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 11:10 AM | Report abuse

I'm annoyed, so if you know the Fed is printing money by, "essentially using its power to create bank reserves," then you have to be conservative. If I know that is the road to hell (figuratively speaking) for the working people of this country, then fine I am conservative. You can not "create" bank reserves!

You can only borrow money from other people to make it look like the money in your bank is yours. The Fed has said they are not monetizing the debt what that is exactly what they are doing.

No, this isn't a partisan issue, this has been going on now too long to call it that. It isn't a liberal or conservative issue. It is the road to hell (figuratively speaking, I know there are some pretty concrete thinkers, so I just want to let you know I am talking about structural unemployment, not perdition).

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Kevin,

I know he was referring to your comment. But if he has examples of rightwing sites celebrating, he should give them out. But of course he doesn't. He's been spewing lies about it since yesterday.

Greg, once again, why is Colonel Kurtz aka caothien still here?

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 11:12 AM | Report abuse

@qb: "Greg, once again, why is Colonel Kurtz aka caothien still here?"

Because Brando's performance in Apocolypse was stellar. Gotta cut Kurtz some slack, just based on that.

Also, it's an additive (or subtractive) equation. Fundamentally agrees with me is a +2 credit. Trollish behavior is a -2 deficit. They cancel each other out. Fundamentally disagrees with me is also a -2 deficit, thus cumulating in a -4 deficit for trollish behavior. Thus, that fellow gets kicked to the curb.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 11:21 AM | Report abuse

I think I have this guy pegged.

Here are some websites that contain ideology that this guy shared a least bits of.

This one is interesting:
http://www.themoneymasters.com/

Notice Aesop, whom he listed as a favorite author and the Wizard of Oz connection with monetary policy. Wizard of Oz was also a favorite book.

More websites coming in my next posts but this is just to whet your whistle.

Posted by: Truthteller12 | January 9, 2011 11:22 AM | Report abuse

To All Mature Adults on this Blog:


There is absolutely no reason to accept the attacks of the democrats concerning this crime.


The democrats were MORE THAN READY to come to this blog and start blaming the Tea Party and Sarah Palin.

Ethan is sitting there with his emailed talking points - trying to blame the Tea Party.


Liam brought up the same topic yesterday.


Disgraceful. However to all you liberals: don't start saying that anything the Republicans are saying is out-of-bounds WHEN YOU KNOW PERFECTLY WELL THE DEMOCRATS AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING.

Really? You have to be joking.


This is just another example of how America is sick of the tactics of the Obama people, the democrats and the liberals.


You have destroyed the political discourse in this nation.


The liberals are doing a GREAT DEAL OF DAMAGE TO AMERICA'S ECONOMY.


The liberals have hijacked our government.

And now the liberals are attacking the Tea Party and Sarah Palin all over the nation.

The country is ANGRY that Obama said one set of things in 2008 - and went back on his word. NEVER constructively dealing with the Republicans over two years EVEN THOUGH OBAMA AND THE DEMOCRATS PROMISED BIPARTISANSHIP AND GOVERNMENT BY COMPROMISE.


Obama lied - he went back on his word.


Just on that issue, Obama HAS NO LEGITIMACY - IF HE WAS A REAL MAN, HE WOULD RESIGN.


Obama has destroyed his own legitimacy.


The government has been HIJACKED. The lame duck session was a disgrace.


The democrats have ACTED IN A SHAMEFUL MANNER.


To Obama and the liberals:


Take some responsibility - if you know what the word means.


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 11:24 AM | Report abuse

AP- Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid says he doesn't think top Republican Mitch McConnell is serious when he says his No. 1 goal is to make Barack Obama a one-term president.
Reid says he believes McConnell is more concerned with the economy, immigration and other problems facing the country...Reid says that if Republicans have made defeating Obama's re-election bid the focus of the next two years, then "that's a bad place to place your cards."

Heh, heh, Harry knows darn well he has to try to keep Republicans distracted. Don't worry Republicans, your victory is assured, don't bother thinking about the state of your party and your slate of "candidates".

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 11:24 AM | Report abuse

"Also, it's an additive (or subtractive) equation. Fundamentally agrees with me is a +2 credit. Trollish behavior is a -2 deficit. They cancel each other out. Fundamentally disagrees with me is also a -2 deficit, thus cumulating in a -4 deficit for trollish behavior. Thus, that fellow gets kicked to the curb."

KW - That is one possibility. I blocked RFR so I do not know if the -4 is still posting.

I would make trollish behavior an independent variable.

Kevin, would you please send me a note at mark_in_austin@operamail.com?
Do it from a throwaway address, if you want, but I want to ask you something privately.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 9, 2011 11:27 AM | Report abuse


Here's another little doozy:

http://www.institutefortruthstudies.com/

Notice 1984, Brave New World, and Mein Kampf references.

Posted by: Truthteller12 | January 9, 2011 11:32 AM | Report abuse

Thought experiment:

House refuses to lift debt ceiling. Payments come due. Treasury writes checks to make payments. They will not "bounce" because the Fed will produce EBTs to honor the checks. The Congress, as I recall, has the Constitutional duty to back the currency, although I have not peeked recently, and I may have overstated.

So what happens to the debt ceiling? What does it mean? No other country that I know of has one.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 9, 2011 11:33 AM | Report abuse

And another...

http://www.americanfreepress.net/

Posted by: Truthteller12 | January 9, 2011 11:35 AM | Report abuse

To All:

For those who used to post on the Fix - and to those who were here before the Fix people came over to this blog:


Cao is a major problem - the Fix people have been dealing with him for years.


In addition, Cao used to have 7-8 little friends at the Fix.


They were all the same - posting in the same way.


Kevin, QB, Scott all - I just would like to point out that is why I just post what I want to say and I leave it at that - because we have been dealing with Cao and his little friends for so long.


You can see what it is like.


Cao has had about 8 different names, Chris Fox, noacoler, Gold and Tanzanite.


To break through him - and his other friends, I just post what I think and leave it at that. I realize what has gone on in this blog over the past few months.

However, ONLY NOW do you all see Cao in action - and ONLY NOW can you understand what we have been dealing with for years.


AND you heard Cao - he said he has 50 different IP addresses PER DAY. And he is doing that FROM VIETNAM.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 11:35 AM | Report abuse

"The Congress, as I recall, has the Constitutional duty to back the currency.' Alexander Hamilton dealt with that issue directly.

"No other country that I know of has one."

No other country plays with itself (figuratively speaking) as this one does. We do stuff like debt ceilings in order to pretend we are doing something about it.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 11:38 AM | Report abuse

All I can say to the LIBERALS is that Obama and his people took a horrible turn when they started to LEVEL FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM AT PEOPLE.


That is nothing but HATE SPEECH.


In addition, those tactics are INTIMIDATION.


Obama dragged this country down. He has attacked people - with NO BASIS. And Obama has sought to create witch-hunts around the nation - searching for racism where none exists.


Just last summer, Obama and his people at the NAACP tried to start another racist witch-hunt.


NONE of this is directed towards black people - it is ONLY INTIMIDATION DIRECTED AT WHITE PEOPLE.


That is what kind of government we have RIGHT NOW.


The government has been hijacked - clearly acted against the Will of the People.


This lame duck session is another example - we had an ELECTION, and the American People clearly expressed their intent.

The liberals and Obama just spent the last two months doing EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO SUBVERT THAT INTENT.


Obama and the democrats just spent two months DISRESPECTING THE ELECTION AND DISRESPECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.


And then the democrats want to blame the Tea Party for inflaming the political atmosphere.


It is Obama's fault - if he was a real man, he would take responsibility and RESIGN NOW.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 11:46 AM | Report abuse

Yes, I am blaming Obama and the liberals for dragging down the political discourse in this nation.


AND Obama and his people LEVELING FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM over the past few years has been just one part of this.


This is HATE SPEECH.


These are INTIMIDATION TACTICS.


This tactics are only directed AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE - and Obama and his people have SHOWN NO RESTRAINT.


Just last summer, the NAACP was trying it AGAIN.

Then they tried to issue some bogus report before the election this year - AGAIN ATTEMPTING TO STIR UP FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE.

These tactics are not divisive???


Obama and the liberals are to BLAME for the political atmosphere in this country.


Just the FACT that the democrats put out talking point attacking the Tea Party yesterday and trying to blame Sarah Palin (because of icons on a website) PROVES that OBAMA IS INTENT ON DESTRUCTIVE POLITICAL DISCOURSE.


Obama is destroying this nation. And that is saying nothing about what Obama is doing to the Economy with his deficits and drags on hiring.

If Obama was a real man, he would RESIGN IMMEDIATELY AND THE NATION CAN START FRESH MONDAY MORNING.

IF OBAMA DOES NOT RESIGN, I DON'T SEE THE ATMOSPHERE IN THIS NATION IMPROVING FOR SOME TIME.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 11:58 AM | Report abuse

"Vitriol" on cable and AM radio clearly had nothing to do with this. This guy was in much deeper fever swamps of American political thought that people on cable and AM probably don't even understand the existence of.

Posted by: Truthteller12 | January 9, 2011 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Seriously folks


The gunman is 22 years old - and ALL he has been hearing from Obama and the democrats for the last 3 years has been FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE.


And you wonder why the younger generation has the attitudes they do.

The liberals are a DISGRACE - the support and silence they have given to Obama and his people when they LEVELED FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM have been HORRIBLE.

The democrats have BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY AROUND THIS.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 12:05 PM | Report abuse

"Vitriol" on cable and AM radio clearly had nothing to do with this."

Pishposh, I just heard Joe Klein and some dingbat from something called Mediaite giddily declare that Beck, Limbaugh, and Palin are to blame. Oh, wait, they said, not necessarily responsible for this specific crime, but . . . but the larger message of course was that they are.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Truthteller, it happens I work deep in the decision making mechanism for the Dx, Tx etc. of the criminally insane. It became apparent to me early on that this person was not altogether different from Seung-Hui Cho, the 23yo Va Tech shooter. People have no clue how many of these folks are out there (hint: many more than you think), how important it is to identify them and I know this sounds harsh, coercively treat them. And of course, we need to keep guns, bombs, scissors, box cutters...out of their hands. Some drown their children in bathtubs. A guy in LA smashed the heads of two little neighbor kids to mush with a baseball bat in his campaign against the devil's spawn. There are plenty of laws in this regard, but we as a society don't attend very well to their, shall we say, literal interpretation.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 12:12 PM | Report abuse


Great Posting from someone else:

** Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”


** Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”

** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”

** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“

** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”

** Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”

** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”


http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/did-barack-obama-cause-the-shootings-yesterday-in-tucson/


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 12:13 PM | Report abuse

There are no "left wing trolls." Never seen one in 15 years on the Net nor before that on dialups.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 9, 2011 10:49 AM
-----

Anyone remember Lefty Frizzell? He wrote a song called, "I Never Go Around Mirrors".

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 12:16 PM | Report abuse

First, the Left Wing Hate Machine has been antigovernment vitriol for years, especially during the Bush43 Adminsistration, and now it continues to ratchet up the vitriol as the days go by. Keith Olbermann, Ed Schultz and the even more extreme wannabes on local radio are vile, evil, despicable people without civic decency or honor. They are deadly parasites attacking the glue that holds our society together. The Right, in contrast, generally serves as a punching bag for the Left Wing Hate Machine and barely manages to defend itself. No, the Left and the Right are not the same in this regard. Not at all.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 9:00 AM

-------

Fixed your boilerplate for you. Keep using the tragedy in Arizona in your feeble attempt to score cheap political points. It shows what makes a true lefty tick. Go ahead and block me. Then you'll be one step closer to the echo chamber in which you best function---and your fragile sensibility won't be exposed to so much, er... common sense.

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 12:36 PM | Report abuse

"The argument will never end, and it will never have a clear winner."

Greg is referring here to how we as a society deal with the seriously mentally ill (the psycho killers), just in case any one thought otherwise.

See, people who like to attack each other see this as just an illustration of the personal responsibility of their online adversaries for all that is wrong. But since I don't care about that, I see it through *my* prism, *my* value system, *my* frustration with how inadequate attention is paid to what *I* do. It all makes perfect sense.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 12:36 PM | Report abuse

"Incitement to violence, especially over a time period as long as my life, has not been the exclusive territory of wingers on either end of the spectrum."

Yeah, 50 years ago the Extreme Left was violent. Beginning 40 years ago the Right took power and began an orchestrated hate campaign that has become more vitriolic and incendiary every day. Rush Limbaugh. Sean Hannity. Bill O'Reilly, the legions of local wannabes on radio who go ever further, the Right Wing psychopaths who troll online conversations. Open your eyes. The Left is non-existentis this country The Right Wing Hate Machine has no equivalent on the Left. There will never be progress without honesty. Call it like it is.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Seriously folks


The gunman is 22 years old - and ALL he has been hearing from Obama and the democrats for the last 3 years has been FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE.


And you wonder why the younger generation has the attitudes they do.


The liberals are a DISGRACE - the support and silence they have given to Obama and his people when they LEVELED FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM have been HORRIBLE.


The democrats have BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY AROUND THIS.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 12:42 PM | Report abuse

The Tea Party and their 2nd Amendment remedies, their obsession with violence needs to end.

They either win or lose on ideas just lijke everyone else. This guy was insane, but the Republican Tea Party - including and especially Sarah and Todd Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and rank and file Republicans in the House and Senate - created this climate of hostility and they did so INTENTIONALLY.

There needs to be a public commitment by ALL politicians, to condemn irresponsible comments without hesitation.

That includes intentionally incendiary comments by Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and any other Republican commentator.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 12:46 PM | Report abuse

@NY Post:

The congresswoman’s father Spencer Gifford, 75, was rushing to the hospital when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies.

"Yeah," he told The Post. "The whole Tea Party."

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 10:58 AM

--------

I'm not sure which of your many theories this quote is meant to support, unless you're implying that her father is a leftwing kook. If the shooter isn't teaparty, does it then follow that she wasn't shot by one of her enemies? Who then? A friend?

If you weren't mentally challenged, you'd realize that the "blue dog" Democrats, of which she was one, are not the ones typically vilified by the right. Since we are told---by another of the posters here---that she is a Democrat representing a Republican district, it does not surprise me that her seat has been mentioned as a "target" for potential gain by Republicans. Rather, she seems like the sort of Representative regularly vilified by libs like wbgonne for not sufficiently toeing the liberal line. Do you suppose wbgonne's hostility toward DINOs might have fired this guy up? We're told he did use the internet; maybe he frequented this very blog.

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 12:52 PM | Report abuse

"There will never be progress without honesty. Call it like it is. "


I'm curious at what hour after the shootings it became okay to begin political exploitation. Just wondering, since you are the arbiter of decorum.

You don't recognize the leftwing hate machine because you are a part of it.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 12:53 PM | Report abuse

There will never be progress without honesty. Call it like it is.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 12:42

-------

Or better yet, try it sometime.

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 12:55 PM | Report abuse

It seems we have found the WMD, and it is Sarah Palin, SarahPac.

Posted by: hoser3 | January 9, 2011 12:57 PM | Report abuse

To the extent that any left leaning person or persons espouses the use of violence and threats is the extent to which we should strive to thwart any such intentions. In the meantime, quarterback, Gabrielle Giffords lies on a hospital bed fighting for her life. You need a healthy dose of Mr. Olbermann's words from yesterday.

Posted by: hoser3 | January 9, 2011 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Oh and Floyd Brown too.

Here is part of the usual disgusting display of intellectual depravity of Floyd Brown. I received this THIS MORNING. Well after Rep Giffords was shot from point blank range. Here is the first paragraph of his email, this is what he has to say:

"It is time to lock and load."

"The freshman of the 112th Congress that we elected have taken the floor. A vote to REPEAL ObamaCare has been scheduled. And the time has come to slay the ObamaCare beast once and for all."

This rhetoric is heinous.

Floyd Brown is a Republican DC insider who runs these Tea Party email lists. He uses this violent rhetoric in every single email. This is NO accident. They plant the seeds for violence throughout their rhetoric. In the emails, in public appearances. "Lock and Load". It is the utmost depravity of intellectual thought to use violence, fear, and greed as a tool for manipulating people, and, unfortunately, the Republican establishment, with people like Floyd Brown, has these things down to a T.

We need all public figures, JOURNALISTS particularly, to immediately stand up and condemn incendiary comments that are intentionally made to spread hatred and paranoid fear.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 1:05 PM | Report abuse

Oh and Floyd Brown too.

Here is part of the usual disgusting display of intellectual depravity of Floyd Brown. I received this THIS MORNING. Well after Rep Giffords was shot from point blank range. Here is the first paragraph of his email, this is what he has to say:

"It is time to lock and load."

"The freshman of the 112th Congress that we elected have taken the floor. A vote to REPEAL ObamaCare has been scheduled. And the time has come to slay the ObamaCare beast once and for all."

This rhetoric is heinous.

Floyd Brown is a Republican DC insider who runs these Tea Party email lists. He uses this violent rhetoric in every single email. This is NO accident. They plant the seeds for violence throughout their rhetoric. In the emails, in public appearances. "Lock and Load". It is the utmost depravity of intellectual thought to use violence, fear, and greed as a tool for manipulating people, and, unfortunately, the Republican establishment, with people like Floyd Brown, has these things down to a T.

We need all public figures, JOURNALISTS particularly, to immediately stand up and condemn incendiary comments that are intentionally made to spread hatred and paranoid fear.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 1:05 PM | Report abuse

Well if she wasn't a right brained person before, she is now! I am absolutely cheered to know the path of this bullet. Earlier someone said she will be a vegetable, paralyzed etc., I doubt it. In fact, she may be a lot more the same than different. Sure she won't be the same, but she has a far better chance of yeah, living a happy life than I had dared to hope she had yesterday.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 1:07 PM | Report abuse

It seems we have found the WMD, and it is Sarah Palin, SarahPac.

Posted by: hoser3 | January 9, 2011 12:57 PM
-----

A fellow who really knows how to lift the intellectual level of a discussion. Did you think that up all on your own?

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 1:08 PM | Report abuse

shrink2, I have to disagree. VA Tech shooter had no political agenda. This guy reminds me more of the Unabomber only not as smart.

Posted by: Truthteller12 | January 9, 2011 1:09 PM | Report abuse

Well if she wasn't a right brained person before, she is now! I am absolutely cheered to know the path of this bullet. Earlier someone said she will be a vegetable, paralyzed etc., I doubt it. In fact, she may be a lot more the same than different. Sure she won't be the same, but she has a far better chance of yeah, living a happy life than I had dared to hope she had yesterday.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 1:07 PM
-------

And you've only been to medical school. How dare you challenge cao's prognosis!

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Greg, are you kidding? The comments section on this site has become all but unbearable.

Posted by: AllButCertain | January 9, 2011 8:23 AM

-------

Nice of you to drop in and share your opinion. Anything else?

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 1:13 PM | Report abuse

shrink:

"There are plenty of laws in this regard, but we as a society don't attend very well to their, shall we say, literal interpretation."

I would guess this is right, but is there a way to deal with it? If such people need to be coercively treated, how to go about it, particularly in the absence of agreement from the family?

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 1:13 PM | Report abuse

actuator, wasn't Karl Rove blamed for Hurricane Katrina hitting New Orleans in the first place?

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 9, 2011 9:18 AM
------

As if directing the hurricane weren't bad enough---don't remember just how, but I know it had something to do with global warming, he then blew up the levees.

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Truthteller, I do crazy, crazy R us, you can trust me on this, the agenda of crazy does not matter, crazy people can kill when they become dangerous; they'll find an agenda...sure they can be incited or even made to kill (a lot of the suicide bombers are crazy, like the Detroit undi-bomber) but parsing the agenda is a fools errand. I've been threatened with death plenty of times, I've been called a Jewish Nazi and every political-word-salad-name-game imaginable by people who want to fit my work "against them" into their destruction plans. I don't consider these people political, except to the extent politics is all about power and the people who transact power. As an aside, I have read a lot about the unibomber and also what he wrote, I am guessing he was at least as autistic (Aspeberger's type) as he was crazy.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 1:24 PM | Report abuse

The shooter is a nutbag. What we need to look for are people saying things along the line of "The shooter was wrong, but..."


Posted by: DDAWD | January 9, 2011

-------

Agreed. Especially things along the line of "The shooter was wrong, but...if it weren't for the likes of Sarah Palin, Sharron Angle, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly..."

Even a blind squirrel like DDAWD finds an acorn every now and then.

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 1:26 PM | Report abuse

shrink2,
"Truthteller, I do crazy, crazy R us, you can trust me on this, the agenda of crazy does not matter, crazy people can kill when they become dangerous; they'll find an agenda..."
-------

Should we keep an eye on cao?

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 1:29 PM | Report abuse

Do Brigade, Quarterback, Rainforest, et al believe that I, et al don't think there are nuts on the left (NOTL's) consumed by thoughts of violence and mayhem? That assumption would be incorrect. They are most certainly out there and we should strive to get them educated and or helped before an incident like yesterday happens again. For those that would act on such thoughts, they must be dealt with legally, immediately and absolutely. In the meantime, Gabrielle Giffords lies on a hospital bed fighting for her life. This act has been done, this act must be dealt with now. I would hope that B, Q and R and I will work together to make such un-holy war a thing of the past.

Posted by: hoser3 | January 9, 2011 1:30 PM | Report abuse

Tucson is the Tombstone of the United States of America, says Sheriff Dupnik.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 1:34 PM | Report abuse


All I can say to the LIBERALS is that Obama and his people took a horrible turn when they started to LEVEL FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM AT PEOPLE.


That is nothing but HATE SPEECH.


In addition, those tactics are INTIMIDATION.


Obama dragged this country down. He has attacked people - with NO BASIS. And Obama has sought to create witch-hunts around the nation - searching for racism where none exists.


Just last summer, Obama and his people at the NAACP tried to start another racist witch-hunt.


NONE of this is directed towards black people - it is ONLY INTIMIDATION DIRECTED AT WHITE PEOPLE.


That is what kind of government we have RIGHT NOW.


The government has been hijacked - clearly acted against the Will of the People.


This lame duck session is another example - we had an ELECTION, and the American People clearly expressed their intent.

The liberals and Obama just spent the last two months doing EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO SUBVERT THAT INTENT.


Obama and the democrats just spent two months DISRESPECTING THE ELECTION AND DISRESPECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.


And then the democrats want to blame the Tea Party for inflaming the political atmosphere.


It is Obama's fault - if he was a real man, he would take responsibility and RESIGN NOW.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 1:35 PM | Report abuse

Brigade. yes.

Posted by: hoser3 | January 9, 2011 1:35 PM | Report abuse

The suspect is reported to have said goodbye on his myspace page.


I wonder if he updated his status to "on death row."


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 1:38 PM | Report abuse

This is something I think a lot of people don't understand. The mentally ill who are dangerous develop a rationale for being so, but it is not that rationale that makes them dangerous. The agenda is frequently apocalyptic/religious (most forensic psych people have to read and re-read Revelation to know what the heck these people are talking about), political, mystical (free masonry is a frequent flyer), involves celebrity and also, of course, people or forces from outer space. We just discharged a guy to the street who has a "hoard" of "ancient coins" he uses to mark people for death. Since he is after his Dad these days, he isn't political. But he could be next year.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Shrink:

When a mentally ill Muslim is persuaded by Islamic hate propaganda to kill innocents, the Radical Islamists share guilt for the killings, regardless of whether they personally instructed the murders. The same is true for the Radical Right Wing propagandists in this country who spew hate and incite mentally ill Americans to assassinate their political enemies.

Not a political act? I'll await further information but on its face this is the ultimate political act. It is the culmination of years of Right Wing hate that has built to a frenzy since Obama's election. You can give the Right Wing Hate Machine a pass if you like but I don't. Not in a million years.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 1:41 PM | Report abuse

QB- you do realize there is a big difference between being pissed off and pulling a trigger don't you?

Posted by: hoser3 | January 9, 2011 1:43 PM | Report abuse

shrink,

Of those people who are seriously mentally ill, what proportion would you say exhibit violence?

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 1:43 PM | Report abuse

That's it for me- good riddance Hoser. You professional yackers are full of yack and seem to get off on spending the day pumping up the weather balloon. To each his own.

Posted by: hoser3 | January 9, 2011 1:47 PM | Report abuse

This is similar to the canard played by the Right Wing whenever, like here, someone is killed with a firearm: guns don't kill people, they say, people kill people. Yes. And people with guns kill more people. And mentally ill people with guns who are radicalized by a 24/7 Right Wing Hate Machine will kill Democratic politicians. It just happened.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 1:50 PM | Report abuse

wb, of course I get that. I said, of course they can be incited and even made to kill. I'm making a different point, a point I am qualified to make and one that I think is important enough to tell people about. What am I, off message?

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 1:50 PM | Report abuse

Hello to all of my past blog mates. I left late last year....and I must say my favorite poster lmsinca pretty well encapsulated my motivation in one of her posts today...

"Agree, re PlumLine, it takes a certain amount of intestinal fortitude to hang out here anymore. The occasional honest debate may or may not be worth it."

The honest debates were becoming too "occasional" and quite honestly I found the level of hate to be disturbing as well. And while I and others (it continues I see) were bemoaning the ONE poster who not only uses format to gain attention and get on the vast majority of other posters nerves, but also posts remarks that would be considered sick by many trained professionals. I do not dislike this person, I truly feel sorry for him or her.

Well after an event of the magnitude of yesterday I returned to see if the PL had changed and the reaction of those I remembered, many...actually most of whom I respect. I don't know whether to be saddened or not? It seems nothing has changed. There are those who spend post after post in search of false equivalencies. There are my old buds like wbgonne who point out that yes the left was guilty of the violence in the 60's and 70's but it's clearly moved to the right in this decade. We can all debate the reason for this but please...spare us digging up all the Dem poor choices of words or the random killer who happens to be left. I am 63 an in my lifetime I have never before seen a serious candidate for the U.S. Senate talk about considering second amendment solutions...or a House candidate in Texas talking about not taking violence of the table.

If this had been spoken by any "candidate" for any national office in the 60's 70's 80's 90's they would have been FINISHED!!! They would have been viewed as crackpots wacked and not serious or competent. A House member had calling the President of the United States of America a liar from the floor would have been shunned by peers and the voters. Now there is no accountability for such irresponsible words.

Nobody is going to eliminate all the wacks in our nation right or left as shrink has so accurately pointed out.

But we can ALL become more civil. We have lost our balance. We no longer genuinely debate issues but waste far too much time on "personal attacks" and completely obliterating discussion of ISSUES by speaking in extremes...Government takeover instead of Insurance reform(I'm not defending HCR I'm unhappy as well...but I don't distort and call it something untrue. I've been called a Socialist for advocating tax policy in place when our middle class was actually growing.

Could we try and get back to GENUINE discussion. To disagree agreeably...to end using hate as entertainment.

Anyway good to read many of my old buds...
lmsinca, wbgonne, Ethan, Mark In Austin,shrink and all the others with whom I obviously agree...and also good to read my conservative friends like tao, Kevin, and Scott.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 1:51 PM | Report abuse

shrink2, do you think this guy has schizophrenia just by looking at the videos?

Posted by: Truthteller12 | January 9, 2011 1:54 PM | Report abuse

Hey ruk:

Happy New Year! Though I wish the circumstances were better. Imsinca the Hippy is starting an anti-war movement -- that's what I heard, Imsinca -- and you seem an ideal candidate.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 1:55 PM | Report abuse

Hi ruk!

2B, got your question and that is akin to the question of my career, so I can't answer it quickly. Short version, depends what you mean by violence. Abstract version, how destructive is untreated mental illness? Very.

SC3, also a big big question. There was a lot of jabber about this after Va Tech, nothing changed. Families are often the most desperate exponents of treatment for their crazy relatives, not always, but more often than not. Someday, after the incident disaster is over as a talking points memo, we can drill into that if you like.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 2:01 PM | Report abuse

@shrink2 ""For those of you who don't check the previous thread this AM, great stuff yesterday, thanks, appreciate it as always."

Hmmm, had to look back and see what he was talking about and, Holy Toldeo! My guess is that Greg was impressed with our respectful, forthright and altogether edifying discussion of the run up to the Civil War, its consequences, slaving, the 3/5 compromise, constitutional law both in history and modern iteration, the well regulated militia and so on"

Or the number of page views he recorded by just posting that he was going to the dentist on a weekend.

Posted by: jnc4p | January 9, 2011 2:02 PM | Report abuse

"I'm making a different point, a point I am qualified to make and one that I think is important enough to tell people about."

I thought your point was that the Right Wing Hate rhetoric is irrelevant to what just happened. If so, I disagree. If not, what is your point?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Some questions coming out of this shooting:

1. How much will this damage Arizona's reputation? How many people will not move there? How many people will avoid vacationing there?

2. How much will this affect citizens willingness to attend live political events?

For me, now I would be *very* nervous attending a political rally. But in Arizona? No way.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Tt, yes, I would be horrified if he does not. They aren't going to tell us you know, his medical records have privacy rights. We may learn he was not guilty by reason of insanity, or if he isn't, let me just say America's prisons are stuffed with schizophrenics.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 2:04 PM | Report abuse

wbgonne...Thanks Happy New Year! If lmsinca is starting an anti-war movement please count me in!!!

As a former Vietnam Vet again I tell you it's deja vu. In fact if the current behavior of the teaparty/palinistas were actually coming from the left instead of the right...I'd swear I had entered a time machine.

Again we define success by "body counts"..that is SOOO Vietnam. Again we talk about winning the hearts and minds of the local populace.

I finish with a simple question. Can anybody tell me how General David Petraeus is going to win the hearts and minds of people we hate. We is perhaps too broad...I don't hate them nor do many of you...but do we suppose Afghans and Iraqis are not aware of all the hostility towards Muslims in our country. That's it's not just NYC but dozens of other locales that won't even let them build their houses of worship? Globalization has effected a lot more than our economy, it effects our foreign policy and defense as well.

Just trying to figure out how you go up to somebody and say eff you...you suck...ohhh would you like to be my friend?

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 2:06 PM | Report abuse

"If lmsinca is starting an anti-war movement please count me in!!!"

Well, I just made that up to get you back in action. So it worked!

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 2:09 PM | Report abuse

"In the meantime, quarterback, Gabrielle Giffords lies on a hospital bed fighting for her life. You need a healthy dose of Mr. Olbermann's words from yesterday."

In the meantime, hoser, 100% of the vitriolic rhetoric is coming from the left. A lunatic shot 20 people, killing 6 including a girl of 9. There isn't a shred of evidence that conservative rhetoric had a thing to do with it or that the perp had any connection to conservatives. But that didn't stop the left from, as usual, leaping up with political accusations.

I read the entire Olbermann "apology" and addressed it above and on the last thread. You can spare me further sanctimony about it.

In the meantime, hoser, 6 people are dead and 14 others injured, many seriously. You didn't see the right jump in unison to blame the left, even though Giffords is a blue dog who was "targetted" by the left. The left, including Olbermann showed not the slightest inhibition. Where, I wonder, is the Tea Party agenda to murder nine year olds? Hmm.

"Do Brigade, Quarterback, Rainforest, et al believe that I, et al don't think there are nuts on the left (NOTL's) consumed by thoughts of violence and mayhem?"

I have no idea who you are or what you think. What I know is that there has again been no shortage of craven opportunists, ghouls, and hypocrites on the left to jump up and blame conservatives for the acts of a schizo nutbag. When leftwing class warrior Clay Duke tried to kill the school board, I didn't blame Alan Grayson and Keith Olbermann, or this blog, even though his parting manifesto could have been written by any of them.

"This act has been done, this act must be dealt with now. I would hope that B, Q and R and I will work together to make such un-holy war a thing of the past."

This act -- the crimes committed by Jared Loughner and no one else -- must be dealt with by the legal system. It isn't part of a "holy war." You should spend your time telling fellow leftists their rhetoric blaming the right is irresponsible. I'd suggest maybe you send a letter to Sheriff Dubnick.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 2:09 PM | Report abuse

@shrink,

I have a childhood friend who is now psychotic, so I have a personal interest in this. I have been scared for her, and of her, for years. At one time, I tried to warn her relatives. But, apparently, nothing could be done to coercively treat her. A therapist told me that very few schizophrenics are actually violent and that I should take solace in that. As far as I know, my friend has not been violent toward others (but has some incidents of self violence -- jumping off a bridge). Despite all this, I'm still scared of her, which could be my own mistake, or it could be correct.

That was the reason I asked you how many seriously mentally ill people actually turn violent. I guess I would qualify that as violence toward, like trying to kill others.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 2:13 PM | Report abuse

12BB:

In addition to those questions there is the question what the politicians will do now. Assuredly, there will be permanent changes in how willing Congresspeople are to hold open meetings. I'm certain there will be a dramatic curtailment of open access.

As for Arizona, it is a beautiful place but it is now Ground Zero for Right Wing psychopathy. It's like Idaho was when McVeigh was around.


Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 2:16 PM | Report abuse

The risk your friend may pose to herself and others on any given day has little to do with whole group epidemiology. If you are really worried, let me know, we'll get in touch and I can talk to you about how to proceed. I know you well enough to know that if you are scared of her, the risk is real.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 2:21 PM | Report abuse

21Bar:

"For me, now I would be *very* nervous attending a political rally. But in Arizona? No way."

I suspect this is something on the order of refusing to fly in an airplane after hearing about an airplane crash. An understandable human reaction, but not a particularly rational one. Flying remains perfectly safe despite the rare crash. I"m guessing that attendance at political rallies, even (perhaps especially, now) in AZ, will remain perfectly safe despite yesterday's rare display of violence.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 2:22 PM | Report abuse

Idaho? You mean Oklahoma?
Idaho hasn't changed btw,

"AP- HAYDEN, Idaho -- A white separatist drew complaints from neighbors and a visit from law enforcement officers after erecting a snowman shaped like a member of the Ku Klux Klan on his front lawn.

Kootenai County sheriff's deputies told Mark Eliseuson Wednesday that he could be charged with a crime because the 10-foot-tall snowman was holding what appeared to be a noose. Deputies were called by neighbors who were appalled by the pointy-headed snowman with two dark eyes.

Hayden for decades earned notoriety for being near the former rural compound of the Aryan Nations.

Eliseuson could have been charged with creating a public nuisance. Idaho law defines such a nuisance as anything "offensive to the senses" or that interferes with the comfort of an entire neighborhood. Eliseuson removed the noose and toppled the snowman after he talked with officers.

Eliseuson told KXLY-TV of Spokane that he sees nothing wrong with the snowman. But other people did.

"It's such a message of hate," said Amber Caldwell, who saw the snowman while visiting her cousin in the neighborhood. "My kids asked me about it and I had to explain what that symbol means."

Eliseuson has angered neighbors in the past by flying Aryan Nations flags at his home. At Halloween he passed out bullet casings after he said he ran out of candy."

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 2:24 PM | Report abuse

"According to a law enforcement memo based on information provided by DHS and obtained by Fox News, Jared Loughner, the alleged shooter of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, may have been influenced by a pro-white racist organization that publishes an anti-immigration newsletter.

No direct connection, but strong suspicion is being direceted at American Renaissance, an organization that Loughner mentioned in some of his internet postings and federal law enforcement officials are investigating Loughner's possible links to the organization. The organization is a monthly publication that promotes a variety of white racial positions.

"The group's ideology is anti government, anti immigration, anti ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government), anti Semitic," according to the memo which goes on to point out that Congressman Giffords is the first Jewish female elected to high office in Arizona. A recent posting on American Renaissance's website on January 7 begins with an article entitled: "Exit poll: Whites are Different." The site goes on to list anti-immigration articles. Investigators are also pursuing Loughner's alleged anti-Semitism.

Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/01/09/dhs-memo-suggests-shooter-may-be-linked-racist-organization#ixzz1AZGcSqig

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 2:25 PM | Report abuse

@wbg,

Yes, I would be amazed if there aren't drastic changes in political events, no matter how small. Heavy security, metal detectors, bullet proof glass, vests etc. Just the other day, I read how the governor of some state in Pakistan was gunned down. How different are they from us? Not that different. Some day, it will occur to people that we do not need to *ever* see our politicians--it can all be done on the internet. Sad.

Talking about the causes of this violence is difficult, since the shooter has dummied up, so we don't know from him what incited him. If he is schizophrenic, then it probably doesn't matter what hyped him up, as shrink says. If he is rational, then it matters more what incited him as he is Everyman.

What is clear, to me at least, is that there is far too much incitement going on in political discourse. I hope the outcome is that politicians and commentators will do the decent thing, and scale back their rhetoric. Or failing that, that decent people will shun those pols and commentators who continue to dish out the gross exaggerations for the sake of their pocketbooks and reelection.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 2:29 PM | Report abuse

Sadly ironic that McCain unleashed Palin on this country nationally and with her, the kind of rhetoric that could have very well fueled this idiot in McCain's very own state.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 9, 2011 2:29 PM | Report abuse

wbg:

"but it is now Ground Zero for Right Wing psychopathy."

Absurd.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 2:31 PM | Report abuse

I"m guessing that attendance at political rallies, even (perhaps especially, now) in AZ, will remain perfectly safe despite yesterday's rare display of violence.
--------------------------------------------------------
You must be kidding. Imagine how many people would be streaming into a Congress on the Corner event held today. Besides the congressman and the police, that is.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 2:32 PM | Report abuse

"What is clear, to me at least, is that there is far too much incitement going on in political discourse. I hope the outcome is that politicians and commentators will do the decent thing, and scale back their rhetoric. Or failing that, that decent people will shun those pols and commentators who continue to dish out the gross exaggerations for the sake of their pocketbooks and reelection."

Well said. I hope those things come to pass. To be honest, however, I am not optimistic. Maybe something this awful will wake sensible people up, I don't know.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 2:32 PM | Report abuse

@shrink

I saw a fellow from your profession on TV last night.

It was his contention that while there is no direct connection between Rush/Beck or Palin's cross hair targets, that historically this has happened before. Whenver times are extremely tough demagogues show up and earn a great living playing on the fear of the populace.

Mix two wars and the attendant fear and economic damage, add in the worst economy our nation has seen since the Great Depression and THEN mix in the volatile encouragement of Second Amendment remedies, watering the tree of liberty etc and that does influence the wack jobs to act out.

Mind you shrink...I am not referring to this particular shooting...but to the rash of death threats and actual violence occurring over the past two years. This "shrink's" basic observation was that while Rushbo and his gang are not directly responsible for this or any other "specific" incident that they do run the risk "collectively" of inciting the extreme amongst us. And perhaps I'm inferring too much but I think his point was that during the flush times this political entertainment is not as costly, but when the country is as fragile as ours is at the present...fanning the flames with incendiary rhetoric and distoritions
and in some cases outright falsehoods is not really in our nation's best interests at this moment in time.

Again people on the right felt this way about Jane Fonda..Abbie Hoffman...Huey Newton and other on the left during the 60s-70s political violence.

As an ignorant lay person it just seems to me shrink that people left or right...now or historically like Father Coughlin..who play on people's fears and paranoia are almost by definition asking for trouble from those whose fears and parnoia are a bit more extreme...extreme enough of course and we get an incident like yesterday.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 2:32 PM | Report abuse

Ethan what is wrong with you? Read these quotes from Obama and apply the same standards you apply to this "Floyd Brown" who no one ever heard of:


Great Posting from someone else:


** Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”


** Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”

** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”

** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“

** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”

** Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”

** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/did-barack-obama-cause-the-shootings-yesterday-in-tucson/

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 2:41 PM | Report abuse

"A white separatist drew complaints from neighbors and a visit from law enforcement officers after erecting a snowman shaped like a member of the Ku Klux Klan on his front lawn. "

Right-wing apologists are now furiously using the google to try and find some sort of news of an equivalent leftist snowman or any hint that the gentleman in question had at sometime glanced at a Howard Zinn book.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | January 9, 2011 2:41 PM | Report abuse

ruk,

I see you bring the same message as before: your opponents are hateful and dishonest, Republicans are uniquely guilty of violent rhetoric. You really think that's productive? Credible?

Perhaps you too should take a good listen to some of your own, like Alan Grayson (GOP wants you dead and is guilty of a second holocaust), Barack Obama (punch back harder, bring a gun, GOP are like hostage takers, the Chicago way), Emanuel Cleaver (false accusations of racist epithets and spitting against protesters). Perhaps you should have been angry at the DNC map that literally placed targets (not a surveyor's symbol) on GOP districts last year. I'm guessing you were okay with that.

Perhaps you should compare the reaction of your side to this crime to the reactions to the school board shooter, the Discovery Channel terrorist, the IRS attacker, or even the Unibomber. Whatever their degrees of mental instability, they all did their crimes while spouting leftist rhetoric, much of which they could have read here. But you didn't see conservatives in unison leap to blame Al Gore or Keith Olbermann or Media Matters.

It's really a bit mindboggling that you could read these threads and not identify your buds like Ethan as the haters. Why isn't a single word of what you say directed at the irresponsible reaction of your side, given that they are solely responsible for politicizing this?


Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Good comment, ruk. Welcome back.

Have a nice day, All.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 9, 2011 2:42 PM | Report abuse

I agree ruk, I never said otherwise, they are asking for trouble, they are. Today I am making a different point, that is all.

Yesterday, just as this was happening, we were discussing the 2nd amendment. Before I knew how bad it all was at 1330, I said callously...

"Another example of the framers intent today in AZ, a well regulated militia indeed."

That was just to focus back on the concept of "well regulated", that was my point.

Then a little later, I said, before going back into the slavery debate, "Ms. Giffords was interviewed on Fox news on Friday...I hope that had nothing to do with this."

That is all I wanted to say about incitement, since everyone else is going on and on about it, I just wanted to bring up some other things that matter.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 2:43 PM | Report abuse

Everyone KNOWS the suspect listed the Communist Manifesto as his favorite book - that ties him to Obama.


Case closed.


The guy probably voted for Obama - and was disappointed that Obama wasn't BIPARTISAN, AND NEVER COMPROMISED.


The suspect said

"What's government when words have no meaning?"


THAT QUOTE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO OBAMA'S 2008 CAMPAIGN PROMISES.


NO LIBERAL CAN DENY THAT.

This is ALL Obama's fault.

By the way, they said that the suspect didn't even have one bag of Lipton Tea in his kitchen - so there is zero linkage there.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 2:45 PM | Report abuse

In case someone is up for changing the subject...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/07/AR2011010703178.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Five myths about why the South seceded

Posted by: DDAWD | January 9, 2011 2:50 PM | Report abuse

I think amoral globalization, the free trade that is not free is the great threat to American lives and human lives in general. Crazy people with guns don't scare me.

"Do you want to see Jesus?" the helicopter pilot asked us. It would be an unusual offer from anyone, but from a pilot it would normally be a cause for serious concern. Not today, though.
We were in the private helicopter of Eike Batista, Brazil's richest man.

We had just flown past Sugarloaf mountain and over Copacabana beach, so the statue of Christ the Redeemer that overlooks the city was the obvious next stop on what was becoming the ultimate sightseeing tour of Rio de Janeiro.
Eike, as the minerals magnate is known in Brazil, could easily afford to give us this joyride. Forbes magazine ranks him the eighth richest man in the world, with a fortune of $27bn (£17bn).
He has made most of it surprisingly quickly, racking up the bulk of his billions in just the last three years, thanks in large part to one key customer.

Brazil's new superport has been dubbed "highway to China"
Highway to China. Indeed, the real purpose of our helicopter trip was to view Mr Batista's latest project, a vast superport north of Rio, built with this customer in mind. The centrepiece of the complex is a two-mile-long pier jutting straight out into the South Atlantic, which has been dubbed "the highway to China".

Mr Batista's companies control enormous reserves of iron ore and oil - commodities the Chinese economy desperately needs.
In fact, Chinese demand for the raw materials Brazil has in abundance has pushed prices to record highs and, as a result, Mr Batista's business - and the Brazilian economy - is booming.
Eike is confident the boom will continue and that Chinese demand will help power him yet further up the world wealth rankings.

"I told Carlos Slim," he recalled with a grin - referring to the world's richest man, the Mexican telecommunications tycoon, "clean your rear-view mirror on the right hand side and clean your rear-view mirror on your left hand side because I don't know which side I will be overtaking you."

Eike Batista says he will soon become the world's richest man
"It's a perfect fit," Eike told me as we sat in his grand offices overlooking Rio bay. "We've got what China needs." BBC

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 2:53 PM | Report abuse

rukidding is back! There was also a "shrink" on last night who claimed this gunman would not have an accomplice.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 9, 2011 2:56 PM | Report abuse

Floyd Brown's first email mentioning the shooting just arrived in my inbox.

It consists primarily of a video and this ad:

The Patriot's Pack

Retail: 125.85 • ONLY 39.95 + FREE SHIPPING • ORDER ONLINE

This best-selling pack includes:

• Patriot's Edition of the 1599 Geneva Bible
• Pictorial Life of Washington
• Border Patrol Cap
• "I'll Keep My Guns" Magnet

This is the kind of scam the GOP pulls on these weak weak people in the Tea Party. Scare them to death, then pray on their ignorance. This is what Floyd Brown thinks is important. To sell "I'll keep my guns" schwag to people under 24 hours after the political assassination of a Democratic member of Congress.

The Republican Party is a giant disgusting scam perpetrated on the weak and disturbed, and this assassination is just one more result of their psychotic behavior.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 2:57 PM | Report abuse

I saw that DD, dealt with some of it yesterday. I don't agree with the last point in particular. We spent a fair amount of time recently talking about whether the Civil War "had to happen". I think we agreed it did, that is was (a) written into the Constitution and that (b) that it was not the fault of the framers that it was. But what that means, that a and b are both true, we have not discussed.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 2:58 PM | Report abuse

Q.B. Sorry I'm not going to take the bait. I'm instead going to respond with the kindest thing you ever said to me...you once posted that you thought even though I am misguided I am at heart a nice guy.

I'll return the compliment.

Quite frankly Q.B you are one of the reasons I left this blog several months ago. Not because you are (you fill in your own pejorative I'm over it LOL) but because you revealed something in me that I don't wish to keep repeating.

This is just one person's opinion Q.B...and you know what they say about opinions...hell I'll even self identify up front as an a hole....but again it is my perception...others on this blog I'm sure have their own perspective of you Q.B...

Anyway here goes...I feel you come to this blog to compete. This is not negative. It can be good fun if you're into it. It is important for you to WIN any discussion.
Again nothing wrong with that...competition...including competition of ideas helped make a country great.

I find when I engage you I too get sucked into that competition. Again I say this not as a negative but simply my opinion. I do not come to this blog to compete or win. I admittedly have a propensity to get drawn into the competition. You and I simply do not have to ability to discuss things calmly. I'll take my share of responsibility for this...W T F I'll accept all of the responsibility if it makes you feel better. :-)

Perhaps you desire more litigating...do you get in the courtroom often or are you dealing more with contracts and spending too much time travelling? Perhaps you were the high school champ of your debate team and you miss the competition and this is kind of your "Senior Tour" lol...don't know your motivation Q.B.

Personally I realized after the election of Rick Scott in Florida that I am truly more afraid for my state and country than at any time during my 63years. I'm sure if I had been 63 in 1970 I would have felt the same way.

And so Q.B. good luck and Happy New Year. We've had some memorable battles in 2010 but I'm simply not up to it for '11. I'll concede in advance.

I am literally too frightened for our nation to spend too much time competing instead of trying to understand and discuss. You accused Ethan of spewing hate...I love Ethan but he is passionate...and Ethan is far brighter than me and so he can defend himself. I'm sure I've spewed my own amount of vitriol in '10...I apologize publicly here to you Q.B. or anyone I've offended or called an inappropriate name.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 2:59 PM | Report abuse

@S.C.

"Right-wing apologists are now furiously using the google to try and find some sort of news of an equivalent leftist snowman or any hint that the gentleman in question had at sometime glanced at a Howard Zinn book."

I had forgotten how much I appreciated your sense of humor. It's funny when I came back today to see how the shooting had effected the blog I had forgotten how many cool people posted here.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 3:01 PM | Report abuse

@ruk above.

Well said and spot on.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 9, 2011 3:02 PM | Report abuse

RUKIdding


Of course, I have to re-post this for you.


These are quotes from Obama - who has single-handed dragged down the nation's political discourse, in addition to dragging down the economy.

Great Posting from someone else:


** Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”


** Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”

** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”

** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“

** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”

** Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”

** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/did-barack-obama-cause-the-shootings-yesterday-in-tucson/

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 3:03 PM | Report abuse

RuKidding

You were always so eager to hit back - I cant imagine that you want to walk away.


I think you are depressed. You need to get some anti-depressants.


I really urge you not to quit the blog - we fight things out, but it's not that bad. Half the time you know what the other side is going to say before they say it.


Everyone KNOWS the suspect listed the Communist Manifesto as his favorite book - that ties him to Obama.


Case closed.


The guy probably voted for Obama - and was disappointed that Obama wasn't BIPARTISAN, AND NEVER COMPROMISED.


The suspect said

"What's government when words have no meaning?"


THAT QUOTE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO OBAMA'S 2008 CAMPAIGN PROMISES.


NO LIBERAL CAN DENY THAT.


This is ALL Obama's fault.


By the way, they said that the suspect didn't even have one bag of Lipton Tea in his kitchen - so there is zero linkage there.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 3:07 PM | Report abuse

@rukidding--Good to see you. I've wondered where you were (these days I always think of you when I look in the mirror!).
@lmsinca--Glad you got the Wilkerson book. I think it's an important one.
@Kevin--I've started to download your program a couple of times but gotten errors and decided not to fight with my computer more. As good as it was of you to write such a program, it's not a complete solution. Installing it should not be a pre-req for reading here, and people arriving through a link wouldn't know about it. Plus blanks in the coversation can make it hard to track. But mostly, it shouldn't be the responsibility of readers to make the site open to the kind of intelligent, open-minded and wide ranging conversation that used to flourish here. That should be WAPO's job, and they're seriously remiss. As conscientious and hard working as Greg is, he doesn't deserve what's happening here.

Posted by: AllButCertain | January 9, 2011 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Hi ruk

Welcome back, and no I'm not starting an anti-war group, but I am looking for a credible one to join. No luck so far but I'll keep you posted. Not much has changed here as you can see. Oh and kevin has missed you because he really designed the troll hunter with your suggestions in mind.

I thought about you a lot last week as I was reading some of the news coming out of FL and the new Governor, yikes!!!!!!!!!!

Yesterday was horrible wasn't it? And as usual the left/right blame game goes on and on. I was trying to get a discussion going re how we could all use a little language adjustment but I don't really think it's possible anymore. Instead of having friends and neighbors who disagree with us on some fundamental issues, we've all become mortal enemies.

Brown is presenting his CA budget tomorrow and I hear it's a doozy and no one's going to be happy. Lots and lots of cuts in spending, no good choices.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 9, 2011 3:09 PM | Report abuse

@ruk: Thanks...and I've missed you around here.

@cl: "There was also a "shrink" on last night who claimed this gunman would not have an accomplice."

And it looks like the "shrink" may have been right:

"Joining Mueller at the podium, Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik downplayed the speculation that a second person of interest had anything to do with the crime. "It would appear to us that the person may not have been involved at all," he said. "

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/mueller-loughner-to-be-charged-today.php?ref=fpblg

Posted by: schrodingerscat | January 9, 2011 3:12 PM | Report abuse

RFR

Are you serious? Do you really wish to engage in an honest discussion.

Tell us something about yourself. I realize it is the internet and I'm not asking you to reveal too much...but I know some other Conservatives here far better than you...I know Scott is in the financial sector...Q.B. is an attorney.

Where do you live. What has made you hate Obama so much? What has made it so PERSONAL? We already know our policy differences. How old are you? Did you hate Clinton as much as Obama. Have you always been an R? Did your parents raise you that way. Why do you refuse to respond to even smart Conserv's like Scott who have advised you to tone it down if you want others to discuss things with you?

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 3:16 PM | Report abuse

ruk,

That was actually a good and grown-up response. I compliment you for it.

I've answered the question a number of times about why I comment here. I think in responses to both you and lmsinca, among others. I wouldn't deny for a minute that . . . well, I don't think it's actually competition but more that I like a good argument. I don't think that is unusual.

But I also care a lot about the issues and the country. And I would rather talk to people to disagree as well as people who agree.

In this case, I thought, maybe, just maybe it wouldn't be the same thing all over again, but sure enough Democrat Sheriff Dupnick started blaming talk radio and Fox News and the right generally, calling them bigots among other things, liberal media figures piled on, and within no time the Ethans of the world were on the bandwagon.

For whatever combination of reasons -- passion about what happens to this country, competition, not backing down -- it seems to me worth continuing to answer those calumnies by the Ethans and wbgonnes of the blogosphere. I'm not going to sit idly while people slander conservatives. It's really that simple.

But in any event have a good and peaceful 2011 if you aren't back here. And don't kid yourself; Ethan most definitely is not smarter than you are.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 3:16 PM | Report abuse

This is the Republican Party in 2011.

Immediately after the attempted assassination of a Democratic Rep it's "I'll Keep My Guns" and "Lock and Load".

That's Floyd Brown. An establishment GOPer who has been a GOP propagandist for years. He's not some fringe "grassroots" blogger. He is an old school propagandist and race-baitor. This is the Republican Party establishment, he's just now running Tea Party email lists. This is what is behind the "Tea Party" and the racist GOP underground. They don't care that a deranged lunatic blew away a congressional representative with what I believe was a legal weapon. Their first reaction to this assassination was "It's not our fault (snickersnicker) now buy a few copies of the Bible and some gun paraphernalia and shut up." This is Floyd Brown, Mainstream Establishment Republican. The GOP is just sick and disgusting in every single way.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 3:18 PM | Report abuse

This is the Republican Party in 2011.

Immediately after the attempted assassination of a Democratic Rep it's "I'll Keep My Guns" and "Lock and Load".

That's Floyd Brown. An establishment GOPer who has been a GOP propagandist for years. He's not some fringe "grassroots" blogger. He is an old school propagandist and race-baitor. This is the Republican Party establishment, he's just now running Tea Party email lists. This is what is behind the "Tea Party" and the racist GOP underground. They don't care that a deranged lunatic blew away a congressional representative with what I believe was a legal weapon. Their first reaction to this assassination was "It's not our fault (snickersnicker) now buy a few copies of the Bible and some gun paraphernalia and shut up." This is Floyd Brown, Mainstream Establishment Republican. The GOP is just sick and disgusting in every single way.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 9, 2011 3:18 PM | Report abuse

Shrink, it was my understanding that slavery was on its way out due to economics, but made a resurgence due to the cotton gin.

I don't know much about the economics of slavery, but I have a hard time imagining a scenario where slavery would not be economically viable. It seems that even today, the industrial sector would do better with slave labor.

Posted by: DDAWD | January 9, 2011 3:18 PM | Report abuse

ABC, do fight with your computer. I have no clue "what is happening here" since I have blocked one poster and I have never blocked more than one poster. It was disturbing to see claw say, "I agree with RFR," after yesterday's mass murder, but that is between him and his higher power.

No way I was going to unblock RFR and see what claw agreed to. I get paid to read that stuff.

"Installing it should not be a pre-req for reading here, and people arriving through a link wouldn't know about it." True and true. Oh well

But get Chrome, it is really easy to get and use, the TH works fine with it and if you don't want to support the dark side (sorry Google), you can just use Chrome for the PL.

I am out, see you later, love one another y'all now hear?

Posted by: shrink2 | January 9, 2011 3:18 PM | Report abuse

@Ethan2010 "This is the kind of scam the GOP pulls on these weak weak people in the Tea Party."

You may wish to read Matt Taibbi's profile of John Boehner in Rolling Stone.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/matt-taibbi-the-crying-shame-of-john-boehner-20110105

"Boehner's irrepressible hackosity is a serious problem for the Republican establishment, which desperately needs a more convincing con man to stave off voter anger on the right. In this regard, the contrast between Boehner and Littleton, the Tea Party leader in Boehner's home state, is interesting. The two men live in the same place, the small township of West Chester near Cincinnati, so Littleton is very familiar with Boehner. But Littleton's opinion of the Republican establishment couldn't be lower: It was precisely programs like the Medicare drug benefit bill and No Child Left Behind, programs he considers unacceptably wasteful and intrusive, that moved him to get into politics. "These were all Republican programs," Littleton says. "If you look at Republican congressmen from Ohio, they all voted for this stuff."

What's interesting is that the survival of the hack political class that Boehner represents now depends almost entirely on their ability to neutralize grass-roots leaders like Littleton — and the word "leader" here is used in the real sense of the word. While Boehner often negotiates for a Republican delegation that winds up rejecting the compromises he reaches, Littleton, when I speak with him, strikes me in exactly the opposite way — I feel very aware that I am talking to someone with a lot of political power, who represents quite a lot of actual human beings.

For obvious reasons, this is a real problem for the Republican Party establishment, which would forfeit any ability to squeeze the Goldmans and Citigroups of the world for golf vacations the instant they stop being able to deliver the votes for cushy spending bills and deregulatory goodies — votes that are now, at least in part, controlled by people like Littleton. This is why in some states the Republican Party fought so fiercely against the Tea Party; in Ohio, the party spent nearly $1 million campaigning to stop Tea Party candidates from assuming jobs at the state level. "They hate us more than they hate the left," says Littleton. "The left's just an enemy. We present a legitimate threat to them."

He seems to have a little more respect for the actual Tea Party people than he did in his previous profile of the Tea Party from before the election.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/matt-taibbi-on-the-tea-party-20100928

Posted by: jnc4p | January 9, 2011 3:18 PM | Report abuse

STATEMENT BY AMERICAN RENAISSANCE


The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) reportedly issued a memo claiming that the shooter, Jared Loughner, has some connection with American Renaissance. We have received a copy of the memo, the relevant portion of which we reproduce here:

>

This is so hopelessly wrong that it is hard to believe it is a genuine government document. No one by the name of Loughner has ever been a subscriber to American Renaissance or has ever registered for an American Renaissance conference. We have no evidence that he has even visited the AR website.

American Renaissance condemns violence in the strongest possible terms, and nothing that has ever appeared in it pages could be interpreted as countenancing it.

AR is not anti-government, anti-Semitic, or anti-ZOG, as is clear from the 20 years of back issues that are posted on our website. The expression “ZOG” has never appeared in the pages of AR, and we have has always welcomed Jewish participation in our work. Many of the speakers at American Renaissance conferences have been Jewish.

Although the name Gabrielle Giffords has appeared in news articles we have excerpted on our website, AR itself has never mentioned her and has certainly never criticized her policies.

Finally, Gabrielle Giffords is not the “first Jewish female elected to such a high position in the US government.” Barbara Boxer has represented California in the Senate from 1993, and Diane Feinstein has done so since 1992. There are at least six Jewish congresswomen listed by Wikipedia as currently serving in the House.

If this memo is typical of the research done by the Department of Homeland Security, our country is in serious danger.

I telephoned DHS today to try to get the bottom of this nonsense, but apparently there is no homeland security on Sundays. The person who answered the phone said no one is there and that I should call back on Monday morning.

Fortunately, some of the media organizations that have been reporting this story have contacted me, and have reported my assertion that American Renaissance knows nothing at all about Jared Loughner, that we condemn all violence, and that we cannot possibly be described as anti-Semitic.

Even Mark Potok of the SPLC was quoted today as saying, “Jared Taylor is not an anti-Semite.”

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 3:21 PM | Report abuse

@ruk: I previously meant to agree and compliment you on your post above directed at qb. I think it was spot-on.

I will say, though, in fairness to qb, that a lot of people are like that (I'll include myself in that criticism). It's amazing the number of things that are "good ideas" until someone across the aisle proposes the same exact thing. Solving problems has taken a backseat to "winning".

Posted by: schrodingerscat | January 9, 2011 3:26 PM | Report abuse

I just posted a statement by American Renaissance


Im sure Ethan is on his way to accusing the group of something.


CLEARLY, the OBAMA people are attempting to use this incident as a WITCH-HUNT AND A CHANCE TO SMEAR THE RIGHT.


This is disgusting.


The idea that the Obama people would circulate YESTERDAY ON A WEEKEND, talking points which sought to tie Sarah Palin and the Tea Party to this crime is an AFFRONT TO OUR DEMOCRACY

_______________________

Seriously folks, Obama is running the country like some pathetic third-world dictator - when any incident is an opportunity to SMEAR A POLITICAL OPPONENT.


ADULTS IN AMERICA have to recognize how destructive this behavior by Obama is to the nation.

Obama should RESIGN. Circulating that memo yesterday is an IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE.


Government in American should NOT operate this way.


As a public official, Obama has VIOLATED THE TRUST OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

If Obama had any self-respect, he would resign.


However, this nation is apparently going to have to be subjected to this continued ANTI-DEMOCRATIC behavior on the part of Obama.


I wonder if Sarah Palin has some legal course of action - they certainly came really close to FALSELY ACCUSING her of a crime.


Seriously folks - the Tea Party had NOTHING to do with this -


and yet our GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS are seeking to tie the TEA PARTY MEMBERS TO A CRIME.


This is horrible - it is politically motivated, and it HAS NO PLACE IN AMERICA

Obama SHOULD RESIGN OVER THESE FALSE ACCUSATIONS.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 3:27 PM | Report abuse

12Bar:

"You must be kidding."

Nope.

"Imagine how many people would be streaming into a Congress on the Corner event today..."

Very few, presumably because so many would have precisely the same human, albeit irrational fear as you. But that is neither here nor there with regard to my point. Just because people do fear for their safety doesn't mean the fear is justified or rational. Going to a political rally today is no more dangerous, and is probably considerably safer in light of recent events, than it was last week. Again, your fear, while understandable on a human emotional level, is not particularly rational.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 3:38 PM | Report abuse

rukidding

I am reluctant to say too much.

I don't hate Obama. I like him personally.


I have become extremely concerned about Obama's ties to groups such as the Rev. Wright's Church. This church is very much unlike most black Churches. This is a radical, radical idealogy which Obama brought his children to listen to.

Seriously, there is little difference between that and a white supremacist teaching his children that kind of stuff.


I think I am also concerned about the stories about Valerie Jarrett - who has said publicly that they were tracking leftists around the nation for years. It certainly appears that they were trying to build a leftist network before Obama got the nomination. If Obama did not get that nomination, it sure appears that he would have proceeded by working on developing a leftist network - stringing together the most liberal elements in our society.

I like Nancy Pelosi. I've had conversations with her and she is charming and sweet. However, I disagree with her policies.


I have good relationships with many local democrats. I will leave it at that.

And I was a Clinton supporter. I gradually became upset with him because of the Selling-Out with the Free Trade deals - and all the money Clinton and the DNC took from China and Indonesia.


I really grew discontented with Clinton's policies - and how much money he was taking from Wall Street when Hillary started thinking about running for Senator from New York.


Put simply, I didn't like the money-trail from the democrats. They were supposed to be the party of the lower classes, the inner cities - and all I saw was Clinton taking care of big corporations, big trade deals - and helping Wall Street deregulate derivatives.


Yea - this disaster on Wall Street could have been forseen ten years ago. If you read Liar's Poker by Michael Lewis - he had it right in the early 90s.


The repeal of Glass-Steagall was the last straw - Clinton SOLD OUT this country. Plain and Simple.

I have always been a fiscal conservative - so you could have called me a Blue Dog.

I believe in a strong military.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 3:42 PM | Report abuse

Q.B.

Wow. Make my day. A compliment from you. I don't say that with snark either.

I respect your desire to win...your love of the competition. If you asked my friends and business acquaintances you would learn that I am one of the most competitive guys on earth. I say this not in reference to you because it would be inappropriate and I don't know you that well....but for ME I realize that my competitive nature has been a plus and a negative. I've been successful but at what price? You're indeed fortunate Q.B. if you've never had to ask yourself that question.

At any rate let me attempt to understand your frustration about connecting yesterday's act to the hateful invective and threats being carried out.

IF the left and many independent's belief that the majority of violent rhetoric and indeed violent action is now coming from the right is true, it doesn't really diminish your viewpoint anymore than Huey Newton, Abbie Hoffman, of Jane Fonda diminished the viewpoint from the left in the 60's. Unless of course you actually support 2nd Amendment solutions...or you personally believe that violence is not off the table...or if as here in Florida like Alan West you encourage your supporters to make your opponent "afraid to leave his house." This is despicable language. I don't believe you support this Q.B.

I don't think anybody is saying all conservatives are bad. I think what people are trying to say is at this PRESENT moment in time...due to a variety of reasons..including threats to our security...two wars...the worst economic disaster in decades...immigration...all this upheaval reminds me exactly of the late 60's...it's simply that the response is coming from the right this time around.

Now Q.B. we could waste each other's time trying to quantify our positions and digging up links. I stipulate up front..to borrow one of your legal terms...that there are plenty of looney lefties. But really Q.B. I'm not talking about the loons...I'm talking about what influences them.

Just an opinion here...no link...no proof..
I believe if the economic success of talk radio came from liberals trashing and making wild accusations about conservatives instead of the other way around...that if Fox was a liberal mouthpiece instead of Conservative..that if folks started carrying automatic weapons and locked and loaded firearms to Democratic political rallies and sported signs that talk about watering the tree of liberty with blood..that if one of the most popular Democratic candidates talked about "real" America..about who is with US and who is against US...that the only difference would have been that it might have been Jan Brewer, John McCain or John Kyl who had been shot yesterday. And this would have disappointed me just as much as having a Dem Congresswoman shot.

For people my age it's truly amusing. It's like we're getting payback.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 3:46 PM | Report abuse

Again, your fear, while understandable on a human emotional level, is not particularly rational.
--------------------------------------------
You call it irrational. I call it smart.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 3:50 PM | Report abuse

shrink:

"No way I was going to unblock RFR and see what claw agreed to. I get paid to read that stuff."

I'm curious...in what way is what RFR says worse than what cao says? I find RFR's style to be annoying, but he is no more outrageous or displays no more need for psychiatric evaluation, than do many others here, cao in particular. So what is so uniquely disturbing to a shrink about RFR?

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 3:51 PM | Report abuse

@S.C.

"I will say, though, in fairness to qb, that a lot of people are like that (I'll include myself in that criticism). It's amazing the number of things that are "good ideas" until someone across the aisle proposes the same exact thing. Solving problems has taken a backseat to "winning"."

Amen Sister!!! If you noticed in my post I include myself in your observation. One of my New Year's Resolutions is to try and achieve some more balance in my life. Not just in my diet, exercise etc but also in my view of politics. Everything is too extreme when in real life how often are things really black and white and how much of life is really shades of gray?

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 3:54 PM | Report abuse

From CNN:

Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah and Democratic Rep. Heath Shuler of North Carolina both told Politico they planned to carry guns while in their home districts.

----------------------------------------------------------
Irrational or not, this is the beginning of reactions of lawmakers who are in fear for their lives.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 4:00 PM | Report abuse

More reaction:

Republican Rep. Jeff Flake of Arizona said while all threats are taken seriously, getting them is just part of the job.

"But the danger is, some of these people you dismiss as crackpots, you know, a crackpot with a gun is dangerous, and that -- that is worrisome. And I think what really hit home to all of us on Capitol Hill yesterday was that you're not only putting yourself in danger if you ignore these kind of threats; you're putting staff in danger, as well," he said on ABC's "This Week."

Bill Livingood, the House sergeant-at-arms, held a conference call to discuss the shooting with lawmakers, their spouses and staff on Sunday.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 4:03 PM | Report abuse

RuKidding

The democrats in the 80s were not the party of today. The democrats have gradually become a collection of special interest groups - the women, the blacks, the gays, the hispanics, the environmental groups - it is almost as if they decided to one day - in response to Reagan - to swing to the left.

The party changed - they moved to the left.

The democratic party became more of a party which listed the agendas of these groups as their agenda - NOT as a party seeking to have an over-all philosophy.

When the Florida recount came - the democrats were bitter, and then 9/11. The democrats appeared to be enraged that Bush's approval ratings went up and they really could not complain about the recount anymore.


They seemed to lay-in-wait for their chance to demonize Bush.


I found this politics to be ridiculous.

Honestly, before the Iraq war, I was AGAINST THE WAR.

I was shocked to find out that in 2002, the DNC was telling its candidates to support the war. I saw that as another betrayal of the roots of the party. Par for the course.


I suppose I view the democrats as betraying their roots - I think that is the best way to put it.


I have also seen a good amount of corruption with the democrats - Im not happy with that and what I have seen. I won't get into specifics on that.

ONCE WE WERE IN THE IRAQ WAR, I firmly believed we should never leave before the job was done. I thought the national security position of the US on a global scale was at stake.

Once the US did that in the Middle East, we could not leave in a mess. We just could not.


Again, I was NOT in favor of going in there in the first place - however, once in, I didn't see how we could leave and not do horrible damage to our position in the world and in the Middle East.


I firmly believe the Economic Crisis had more to do with Clinton and his people at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac than anything Bush did. I really don't care to debate that because anyone who does any research knows who was in control of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

Even Rahm Emanuel was on one of those boards for a while.


I view Obama as extremely radical and dangerous to our Economy - this health care plan was not well thought-out and it was just stupid to try to do something like in the middle of an Economic Crisis.

I don't care if he had a temporarty majority - it was an incredibly irresponsible and stupid thing to do in the middle of an Economic Crisis. Obama does not know what he is doing, he has no qualifications and no experience. People were irresponsible in supporting him, giving him money and voting for him.

There really is little to dispute on that.

.


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 4:03 PM | Report abuse

12Bar:

"You call it irrational. I call it smart."

Fair enough, but I wonder why you think it is smart. Do you believe that, because there was a shooter at yesterday's event, the odds of there being a shooter at future events has gone up significantly since last week? If so, why? Or do you think your lack of fear prior to yesterday was not "smart"?

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 4:04 PM | Report abuse

@RFR

That was a great attempt at being a civil poster. Thanks.

If you reread your own 3:42PM post you'll see none of the birther/socialist/ extreme whining.

You have stated YOUR positions instead of simply cutting and pasting the same stuff over and over again. I'm sure some would prefer a little less white space RFR.

I suspect that many of us agree with many of YOUR positions..wow what a surprise...why don't you post like this more often instead of the cutting and pasting and all extreme rhetoric?

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Greg, as you know, most modern assassins post hateful rhetoric to websites before committing heinous acts. I accidentally read some of the stuff RFR was posting [and often like 3 or 4 in the morning] and I really do thnk he may be capable of violence.

He used to post constnatly at the Fix for days on end, apparently without sleep, and people were of the opinion that he is a meth head. In any case, I would think any blogger with a hateful obsessive like this on board really ought to consider giving the FBI a heads up. Can't hurt to be on the safe side.

Does the WaPo have a policy on this?

Posted by: fiona5 | January 9, 2011 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Or do you think your lack of fear prior to yesterday was not "smart"?
------------------------------------------------------
Yes, by virtue of obviousness.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 4:08 PM | Report abuse

12BarBluesAgain at 4:00 PM


Have you ever been to their districts?

Maybe you would have a different opinion..

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 4:11 PM | Report abuse

RFR

You're beginning to derail a bit.

". People were irresponsible in supporting him, giving him money and voting for him.

There really is little to dispute on that."

Your last line is incorrect IMHO. In fact think about it RFR and you'll realize it.

If 50% disagree with you that means there is plenty to dispute your statement...at least 50% DISPUTE your statement...personally...don't know about you..but I believe 50% is more than a LITTLE dispute.

You are incredibly inconsistent in your policy descriptions. At 3:42PM I could have hooked you up with wbgonne and then at 4:03PM you move back to the right.

I respect your positions RFR but not your observations about who is serving your interests best. The R's are just as guilty as the Dems of everything you've charged. You are frustrated because neither party is giving you what you want but somehow you've blamed the failures of both parties on just one party.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

rukidding7 wrote,
"If this had been spoken by any "candidate" for any national office in the 60's 70's 80's 90's they would have been FINISHED!!! They would have been viewed as crackpots wacked and not serious or competent...
Now there is no accountability for such irresponsible words."
---------------------------------------

"The Honorable Gus Savage, on the day he was defeated in a primary election for Congress, blamed the "white racist press and the racist, reactionary Jewish misleaders" for his loss.

"Gus wouldn't talk to the press, saying that most of the press is "racist" and includes too many Jews. He called "historically, culturally and politically accurate" Louis Farrakhan's statement that "Hitler was a great man" and that Judaism is a "gutter religion." He's been know to respond to reporters questions by calling them "f*ggots" and asking "Are you still messing with little boys?"

---

"You´d find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, they´d just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva." -- Fritz Hollings (D, S.C.)"

---

"Is you their black-haired answer-mammy who be smart? Does they like how you shine their shoes, Condoleezza? Or the way you wash and park the whitey´s cars?" -- Song from the show of left-wing radio host Neil Rogers

---

"Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds." -- Former Klansman and US Senator Robert Byrd, a man who was referred to by many Democrats as the "conscience of the Senate

---

"I´ll have those n*ggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years." -- Lyndon B. Johnson to two governors on Air Force One according Ronald Kessler´s Book, "Inside The White House"

---

"You f*cking Jew b*stard." -- Hillary Clinton to political operative Paul Fray. This was revealed in "State of a Union: Inside the Complex Marriage of Bill and Hillary Clinton" and has been verified by Paul Fray and three witnesses.

---

"White folks was in caves while we was building empires... We taught philosophy and astrology and mathematics before Socrates and them Greek homos ever got around to it." -- Rev. Al Sharpton in a 1994 speech at Kean College, NJ

---


"The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him. I will fight to see that vicious beast go down into the lake of fire prepared for him from the beginning, that he never rise again to give any innocent black man, woman or child the hell that he has delighted in pouring on us for 400 years." -- Louis Farrakhan who campaigned for congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2002, City College audience in New York

---

"Jews - that´s J-E-W-S." -- Democratic state representative Bill McKinney on why his daughter Cynthia lost in 2002

---

rukidding7 should get out more.


Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

rukidding

I will tell you this: I write this way now because the Obama paid trolls and people like Cao at the Fix made posting difficult at the Fix.

So I gradually decided to just state my opinion clearly and leave it at that.

I don't believe that you and others on this blog realize exactly what was going on in 2008. I heard from a good source that the Obama campaign had hired over 100 paid trolls at their headquarters in Chicago. They worked in shifts and harassed anyone on the internet who said anything which opposed anything Obama said.

Seriously - the harassment on the Fix was off the scale. You can look back at the archives. I think they are still there.

It was almost as if, in every shift, the Obama campaign paid three people to be on the Fix - mocking and harassing anyone who voiced any opinion which opposed Obama.


In fact, the Daily Kos experienced a similar circumstance. The Obama people started fights with the Hillary people. One day Kos asked all the Hillary people to actually leave the website.


We all know the Obama campaign had $700 Million and they were able to hire staff far in excess of normal political campaigns. However, their web operation was FAR OUT-OF-BOUNDS the entire year.


I found this to be an affront to democracy - intimidation tactics to deter people from exercising their Freedom of Speech. I found this to be anti-democratic and inappropriate in a democratic nation.


At the time, we did not know about Journo-list. However, I have my suspicions because the Obama people did have so much money and they clearly spent so much money to CONTROL the message coming over the internet - down to the message boards and blogs.


Seriously, I am not happy with these tactics - and I find them highly dangerous to this nation.

One can wonder what else the Obama people have been up to.

This kind of stuff is Nixonian. Seriously.

The false charges of racism - Im not going to list all the incidents since 2008 - however I find that also to be extremely offensive to democracy.

Obama has taken INTIMIDATION TACTICS to new levels in our democracy. There is no place for any of this in America.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 4:25 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues,
"I have a childhood friend who is now psychotic, so I have a personal interest in this."

---

You also have a friend who posts here who is now psychotic.

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 4:28 PM | Report abuse

The difference between Keith Olberman and the rightwing hate machine is that he is one guy.

One guy who says unbalanced things on the left -- and I don't watch him but I have never heard of him advocating violence/ 'second-amendment solutions' -- against literally thousands on the right spewing venomous eliminationist rhetoric on the right, including elected republican officials.

Posted by: fiona5 | January 9, 2011 4:29 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"Talking about the causes of this violence is difficult, since the shooter has dummied up, so we don't know from him what incited him."

---

That certainly hasn't stopped wbgonne and the other loonies. They're mindreaders. Well, maybe just mindless.

Posted by: Brigade | January 9, 2011 4:34 PM | Report abuse

ruk,

Finding more balance -- I can relate to that. It sounds like you are doing something real about getting into a healthier position. I'd like to find more balance in a number of ways. It doesn't seem to be very within reach right now, although maybe that is just excuse making. Modern life just kind of wrings you out. Too much information, too much activity, too much of too much.

Whenever I say something like that, though, I wonder, how would our ancestors respond? Did people breaking their backs to scratch out a living from 100 acres have balance? Probably not.

Anyway, I think the answer to your hypothetical is the same thing I've been saying for 24 hours. The rhetoric of the left is out there. It just doesn't sound the same to your ear. We went over a lot of that long ago with folks like Tena, who first didn't believe it and then, faced with the facts, said, "Well Republicans deserved it."

It's very much there, and it hasn't changed. I think your own Alan Grayson was pretty hard to top during the past two years. The Florida school board shooter used rhetoric about domination by the rich that could have been lifted from Grayson or any number of others, or from this very blog. I could very easily draw a line from one to the other.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 9, 2011 4:34 PM | Report abuse

All, my take on the Gabrielle Giffords shooting:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/gabrielle_giffords_shooting.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | January 9, 2011 4:37 PM | Report abuse

@ABC Thanks!

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 4:49 PM | Report abuse

You also have a friend who posts here who is now psychotic.
-------------------------------------
He's *not* psychotic.

You must not know how a psychotic acts. Just because you disagree with someone, that doesn't make them psychotic. Come on.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 4:54 PM | Report abuse

@RFR

"The false charges of racism - Im not going to list all the incidents since 2008 - however I find that also to be extremely offensive to democracy."

Agreed RFR. False charges of racism are evil.

And so how about the actual incidents of racism? You know like my neighbor down the street...a Neurosurgeon who sent out emails to his Tparty group with Obama as witch doctor? Or all the Ni55er signs that mysteriously popped up at tea party rallies including the famous one held by Texas tea party leader Dale Robertson.

Well like you RFR I could go on and on documenting the charges of racism that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE! That is if you believe calling someone a N is racist...or using old offensive stereotypes like watermelon patches on the White House is racist.

How about it RFR. Are you equally as upset with the racists in our society as with those who charge others with being racist.

BTW RFR when asked if he would have trouble gaining white votes Obama replied pragmatically that he believed most white people to be of good conscience and that they would make their decision based on qualifications and ability not his color, he added however he is not naive...he does understand that some white folks would not vote for him because he is black and that some blacks would vote FOR him for the same reason.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 5:00 PM | Report abuse

12Bar:

"Yes, by virtue of obviousness."

So if the next political rally goes by without violence, will it then be obvious to you that you fear today was unwarranted? Indeed, given that you have never been shot at any previous rally that you have attended (have you?) it should be "obvious" to you that your lack of fear was perfectly justified.

I suppose that everyone thinks their fears are "smart" at some level. But it isn't at all smart to use a single data point to draw conclusions about the safety or lack thereof in a given activity. It is, like I said in my first, akin to reading about a plane crash and deciding suddenly it is no longer safe to fly. Understandable, but not rational.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 5:05 PM | Report abuse

@Q.B.

"Modern life just kind of wrings you out. Too much information, too much activity, too much of too much."

As your old nemesis Tena might say...WORD!

This is really why I took the break. Tooooo much! Good luck on finding the balance in your life in 2011. I really do hope it moves within reach in 2011.

Personally I find it a daily challenge. When I do the right things...exercise..meditate..eat right...
Well I'm not telling you anything you don't already know...it's easy to know but harder to actually do.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 9, 2011 5:06 PM | Report abuse

So if the next political rally goes by without violence, will it then be obvious to you that you fear today was unwarranted?
-------------------------------
Scott, . Don't you ever get tired of insulting people? No, I won't change my mind. You are tiresome.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | January 9, 2011 5:09 PM | Report abuse

12Bar:

What was insulting about my question? It was the logical follow-on to your apparent thinking about the issue, projecting from a single data point. No insult was intended nor, from what I can tell, present.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 9, 2011 5:43 PM | Report abuse

rukidding

There is an organized SMEAR campaign going on this weekend - to smear Sarah Palin and the Tea Party.


The President of the United States is involved in this conspiracy to deceive the American People - the objective is to take the shooting in Arizona and use the incident to do political damage to Sarah Palin and the Tea Party.

On this blog, we have already seen Ethan and Liam re-post democratic talking points which place this blame on Sarah Palin.

I find these actions to be anti-democratic and unAmerican.

Combined with Journo-list, which was an organized attempt to

1) not compete among news sources which should be competing.

2) present news sources as unbiased when, in fact, there was an organized email list dedicated to hiding information and slanting information going to the American Public.


I have a problem with these Obama tactics. I don't believe for one minute that Obama doesnt know this is going on and I dont doubt that Obama APPROVES of these tactics.

If someone under you, in an organization run by you, started an organized smear campaign against an American citizen, the person at the top has to know and approve.

Or that person at the top should be taking positive steps to stop this behavior -

Obama has NEVER stopped the false charges of racism.

Obama has never stopped the smear campaigns

Obama has never stopped the organized attempts to decieve the American people through biased reporting.

All this is out-of-bounds in my mind.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 6:28 PM | Report abuse

fiona5 | January 9, 2011 4:05 PM

This comment is a disgrace to the First Amendment

Your comments are FAR MORE HATEFUL than anything I have written.


You actually should be in a straight-jacket.

You have been asked multiple times to knock it off with the HATE SPEECH against other posters.

Again, stop it.

YOU ARE HARASSING PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG AND MAKING AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 6:31 PM | Report abuse

rukidding

of course I am. I guess I live in a tolerant area where these incidents do not take place.

Tim Russert called Obama out before the South Carolina primary on the false charges of racism.

Obama said he wouldn't do it anymore. Then the Obama people started to try to twist something Bill Clinton said and calling it racist.

Then there was the comment by Geraldine Ferraro, which Obama twisted out of context and tried to smear her by calling her a racist.

Then there were the phone called the Obama people were making to the SuperDelegates - threatening them with "riots in the streets" if Obama didn't get the nomination.

They proceeded to threaten the SuperDelegates saying that the blacks would leave the democratic party for good if Obama did not get the nomination.

All this is OUT OF BOUNDS in the American political system.

Then Obama made the famous comment that "they haven't said anything racist yet, but they will"


The whole atmosphere is one of WITCH HUNT AND INTIMIDATION.


We can't allow this guy to get away with this.


Then this summer, they tried to drum up the same garbage with the NAACP resolution.

They have been trying to call the Tea Party racist all along - trying to INTIMIDATE THEM INTO NOT ENGAGING IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

Obama's people have tried to make the Tea Party into the new KKK. Only no one has lynched anyone.


Obama has destroyed the political atmosphere in this country. Something has to be done - People should speak out against these tactics.


The truth is that the INTIMIDATION TACTIC OF THE KKK are now being used by the Obama people AGAINST THE TEA PARTY.

The Obama people are trying to intimidate the Tea Party into NOT participating in politics - just like the KKK did to the blacks at the beginning of Jim Crow.


Seriously man - the Obama people are the new KKK.

I know we are trying to have a serious conversation - but I believe these issues are important.

At a minimum the Obama people are acting like the Nixon people.

These issues are important and should be addressed.


These tactics have NO PLACE in Obama - Obama should have to answer for these things. Obama has done NOTHING to stop any of it, so Obama is RESPONSIBLE.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 9, 2011 6:42 PM | Report abuse

The irony is that the descriptions I've heard of the shooter and particularly his behavior online are very reminiscent of a commenter on the Plum Line. I'll hope those close to him are aware of the danger.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 9, 2011 7:17 PM | Report abuse

@AllButCertain: "Kevin--I've started to download your program a couple of times but gotten errors and decided not to fight with my computer more."

Fair enough. Although, I would be interested in known what errors/what context. I know userscripts.org isn't always reliable. ;)

"Installing it should not be a pre-req for reading here, and people arriving through a link wouldn't know about it. Plus blanks in the coversation can make it hard to track. But mostly, it shouldn't be the responsibility of readers to make the site open to the kind of intelligent, open-minded and wide ranging conversation that used to flourish here. "

Well, a couple of things. First, it would be nice if WaPo did something, but such places rarely do. And so there is a solution that, for most people, works, and takes fewer steps and less time to install than the average amount of time spent on composing one comment. ;)

Second, I am a conservative. I like "by your bootstraps" solutions, and don't particularly expect WaPo to do anything. This is what they offer--if I want something more, I've got to do it myself. Frankly, I had long hoped somebody else would write a userscript to do what mine does, but, since nobody had, I figured out how to do it myself.

But, if you need a little walkthrough or if it doesn't work for you for some reason, I'm happy to troubleshoot. With the caveat that it's been several months since I worked on it, and it takes me a while to remember what I did after that much time has passed. :)

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 8:59 PM | Report abuse

@ruk: I'm ticked at you.

I was trying to make the case for the WaPo Troll Hunter, about 10 hours worth of development time had been devoted to specific complaints you had, and you disappeared without even trying it out. What?

Works in Firefox with Greasemonkey and it's a 3 minute install, which I can give you step by step instructions on. Works with Google Chrome. I've gotten it to work in Safari by installed SIMBL and Greasekit (a little more complicated, but not much). I don't think it works in Opera right now, but if you're using Opera, I'll get it working in Opera (there are a few more steps to getting it up and running in Opera, but . . . if that's what you use, I'll get it working).

Not only does it add a super simple "Ignore" button for everybody, it moves the posters name above each comment a hilites it, and keeps a count of how many posts each person has contributed, and makes links clickable.

It's frickin' awesome. Clickable links. Automatically opens links open in a new tab or window, depending on the browser. It's so cool.

I was very disappointed by your disappearance, when the Troll Hunter was filled with features custom designed just for you. So disappointed I'm going to cross post this.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 9, 2011 9:11 PM | Report abuse

Seconded on Troll Hunter. Install it, click a few Ignore buttons, and see the difference. RainForestRising singlehandedly and deliberately makes the blog unreadable, TH makes him invisible, unless someone new shows up and decides to engage with him.

I'm curious, Kevin, does TH phone home with Ignore stats? Might be interesting to see the blockage counts. We all know who #1 is.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 6:38 AM | Report abuse

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