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Posted at 8:40 AM ET, 01/10/2011

The Morning Plum

By Greg Sargent

* What did Jared Loughner believe? He was a 9/11 truther who believed that global elites, hell bent on world domination, are in the process of creating a one-world currency.

* Did he draw his ideas from the fringe right? So argues the Southern Poverty Law Center, pointing to his views on currency and related matters, though it's worth emphasizing again that the shooter seems so disturbed that it's pretty much impossible to locate his views anywhere on a recognizable political spectrum.

* Left and right battle to define Loughner: A useful rundown on all the clues to Loughner's beliefs and how each side is seizing on them to make its case.

Key takeaway: There really isn't much to work with in trying to establish what Loughner believes.

* The roots of shooter's grudge against Giffords: A friend of Loughton tells Mother Jones that his grudge against Giffords as a "fake" goes back years, and adds that Loughton was a devotee of "lucid dreaming," i.e., the art of creating an alternate reality with conscious day-dreaming.

* Is the shooting a made-for-Obama moment? Howard Fineman thinks so, suggesting that the tragedy, and the resulting recriminations about the harsh tone of our politics, may showcase Obama at his best:

Obama may be able to remind voters of what they like best about him: his sensible demeanor. Amid the din and ferocity of our political culture, he respectfully keeps his voice down, his emotions in check and his mind open.

* Obama's role: Obama has called for a moment of silence at 11 a.m., and the White House says Obama will not be visiting Arizona today and has no remarks planned, but advisers are debating whether it's wise for him to start a national conversation over the shooting. He may address it in his upcoming State of the Union speech.

* Congress's week: All legislative action, including the repeal of health reform, has been postponed, and are set to hold a joint caucus meeting to talk to the Sergeant at Arms about additional security.

* And: Staffers to members of Congress are deeply concerned that there may be more violence to come.

* What should Congress do in response to shooting? Ideas abound, including a bill to make it a Federal crime to use menacing language or symbolism towards lawmakers, and measure restricting access to the type of ammo used by the shooter.

Key takeaway: The lack of discussion about gun control in the wake of the shooting is a reminder of how far the topic has receded from the agenda of even Democrats.

* Political fallout begins: Shooting not a time for false equivalences: Paul Krugman says we need to cut the phony "even-handedness" and admit that the right is almost entirely to blame for the toxicity of our discourse, and calls on GOP leaders to "take a stand against eliminationist rhetoric."

* And: Peter Daou warns: "One of the most dangerous myths promulgated by the media and political establishment is that there is a comparable level of extremism among conservatives and liberals."

* Conservatives need to take on the fringe? E.J. Dionne agrees that the onus is on conservative leaders to take on the right-wing fringe, just as liberals were urged to challenge violent left-wing rhetoric in the 1960s.

* Conservatives push back: The rundown on why it's supposedly unfair to tie the shooting to Sarah Palin's now-infamous Dem/crosshairs map.

* What Palin should have said: David Frum says Palin should take responsibility for the crosshairs map, and take the whole debate over violent rhetoric a bit more seriously.

* Tea Party blames left for shooting: Tea Party Nation founder Judson Phillips warns that the "hard left is going to try and silence the Tea Party movement by blaming us for this," adding: "The shooter was a liberal lunatic." Protesting too much?

* And no comment on shooting from Sharron Angle: Nevada journalist Jon Ralston emails that Angle, who prominently hinted at the possibilty of "Second Amendment remedies" if Congress continues on its current course, has remained mum on the shooting.

What else is happening?

By Greg Sargent  | January 10, 2011; 8:40 AM ET
Categories:  House Dems, House GOPers, Political media  
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Next: 'Violent imagery' in politics isn't the problem

Comments

If anyone were still paying attention to Sharron Angle, just imagine how squeaky clean her web site would be at this moment!
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 10, 2011 8:48 AM | Report abuse

If Obama does discuss the shooting at any length, and does not end up somehow saying "both sides do it, let's not get into any blame or recrimination, looking forward not back", I will eat a bug. That kind of "Now, now, everybody just calm down" pose is core. So maybe relative silence is the best we can hope for.

Posted by: tatere | January 10, 2011 8:49 AM | Report abuse

Hahah Angle has no comment..

Angle's been told to zip it

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 8:53 AM | Report abuse

Obama's role? Leftists want Congress to focus on (alleged) “menacing language" after the atrocity this weekend. Maybe they should start with President Obama. He's clearly the worst offender.
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/did-barack-obama-cause-the-shootings-yesterday-in-tucson

** Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
** Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”
** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“
** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
** Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”
** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

If Leftists really want to consider the atmosphere of "menacing language", they should start at the White House.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 8:54 AM | Report abuse

The Frum piece is stellar

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 8:56 AM | Report abuse

Brace yourself: The satanic Westboro cult will protest at little Christina’s funeral.
http://hillbuzz.org/2011/01/09/brace-yourselves-democrat-fred-phelps-and-westboro-hate-group-announce-plans-to-picket-9-year-old-shooting-victim-christina-greenes-funeral-a-new-low-for-democrat-hate-groups/

“The Left does some truly despicable things in this world, but this is a new low for Democrats. Former three-time Democrat gubernatorial candidate Fred Phelps Jr. (commonly called just “Fred Phelps”) and his Westboro Hate Group have announced plans to disrupt the funeral of 9 year-old shooting victim Christina Greene.”

/spit

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 8:56 AM | Report abuse

Greg:

You said last night:

"And I hope the shooting will get folks who aren't themselves prone to sinking to such depths to be a bit more determined to call it out as unacceptable when we see it in others."

Here's your chance to lead the way. From this morning at 8:26, from cao:

"[The Post] hosts some of the most crazed right-wing columnists of any major paper in the country. People who belong in prison or the gas chamber for their roles in the previous administration."

I look forward to hearing your condemnation.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 10, 2011 8:57 AM | Report abuse


The Obama people have a DISRESPECT AND ANGER at the American People.

The election of Scott Brown was DISRESPECTED BY THE RECONCILIATION procedure.


The November election was DISRESPECTED by the lame duck session.


Finally, the nation has been subjected to a series of incidents of FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM coming from the Obama people.

Fueled by the Obama paid trolls, who post Obama's liberal talking points on blogs like this one.


That has all CREATED the negative atmosphere in the nation.


A person can not Exercise their First Amendment Rights, without some liberal coming out on a message board and engaging in MOCKING AND HARASSMENT - and the potential for False Charges of Racism.


This has all been LED BY THE OBAMA PAID TROLLS.


And if there is no racist, we hear from these people that "you don't really believe that, you have a hidden motive of racism"

As if opposition to a Trillion dollar deficit is rooted in racism. This is the foolish position of the Obama people.


The American People are SICK of these Obama tactics of FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM.


Get it???


.
.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 8:57 AM | Report abuse

It is better that we have no comments from Ms. Angle.

Shrink's posts yesterday should have slowed the finger pointing.

Greg, it is the first assassination attempt in 30+ years, but after the three in the sixties and attempts in the 70s and 80s, we were lucky for awhile.

If this attempt results in reviewing how we identify and treat schizophrenics we will have learned the correct lesson. Lowering the temperature of public debate is a good idea on its own, but virtually unrelated to this assassin.

If AZ enacts better background checks and gun licensing, that would be a positive.

But nothing short of reviewing how we deal with the mentally ill would be a major relevant improvement.

12BB, there are not enough crazies to keep you indoors, and Tucson is a lovely place. But there are some crazies, even in NoCal. even in Austin. Let us not become paralyzed by them. See Ezra Klein on this today.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 10, 2011 8:59 AM | Report abuse

"Of the right?

The Southern Poverty Law Center's Mark Potok has followed the far right, in detail, as long as anyone, and he was the first to tie Jared Loughner to an obscure, bizarre theorist of mind-control through grammar, David Wynn-Miller, who styles himself the King of Hawaii. (Miller supported that view in an interview with my colleague Carrie-Budoff Brown.)

“The idea weirdly enough of controlling grammar, of somehow the government using grammar to control the people is an idea that exists on the radical right," Potok said.

But Miller's ideas are so weird -- his anti-government ideology centers on the malign influence of the U.S. Postal Service -- that I wondered why Potok placed him on the right, and I emailed Potok to ask this evening. He responded that Miller's strange ideology is interlaced with views popular on the right fringe:

Miller is a full fledged believer in “sovereign citizens” ideology — the idea that you don’t have to pay taxes to the wicked federal government if you only know the right formula. He believes that if you upper case your name, you’re a slave of the government; on the other hand, if you use colons and hyphens in your name, you’re no longer taxable — you’ve broken free of the tyrannical government. As I say, these are ideas that are very important in large swaths of the antigovernment “Patriot” movement, aka the militia movement.

Potok also notes that Loughner seems to be drawing his views on currency from the right, and suggests that it makes sense to place even his flag-burning -- which resonates most with the Vietnam-era left -- with those anti-government views.
Loughner will presumably eventually explain himself, and it doesn't, in a sense, matter very much: He was so obviously disturbed that there's limited use analyzing his beliefs. But it's worth trying to understand, at least, where he was drawing his ideology from, and this strand of the fringe seems to be the answer."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0111/Of_the_right.html?showall

The Right Wing Hate Machine is responsible for the mainstreaming of anti-government extremist ideology.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 8:59 AM | Report abuse

UFB! Democrats are using Giffords’ shooting... for fundraising!
http://biggovernment.com/wthuston/2011/01/09/unbelievable-democrat-group-using-giffords-shooting-for-fundraiser/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BigGovernment+%28Big+Government%29&utm_content=Twitter

/crass on 'roids

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 9:00 AM | Report abuse

I've been thinking about the gun issue and how someone with identified mental instability could get access to such a weapon. There are avenues of reporting available but apparently some states are better at keeping track than others. It's also interesting that Rep. Giffords was a gun rights advocate who voted for the health care bill and was not in favor of the Arizona anti-illegal immigration legislation but in favor of strengthening the apprehension of illegal immigrants at the border.

Here's a piece from the Times dealing with the reporting of the mental health requirements for gun ownership.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

"As far back as the Gun Control Act of 1968, there have been federal laws against selling weapons to mentally ill individuals. But the Virginia Tech tragedy in 2007, in which the shooter Cho Seung-Hui was able to pass two federal gun background checks even after a state court ruled that he was dangerously mentally ill, highlighted the need for better record-keeping and interagency communication to enforce those laws. (More than 30 people died in the incident.) Saying that unstable individuals are disqualified from buying firearms is meaningless if the national background-check system, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), has no record of their illness. That's why the Brady organization was proud to announce on Friday, just a day before the Tucson shootings, that the number of records of mental illness in the NICS database had more than doubled since Virginia Tech, to more than 1 million records.

But there's a problem with that: there should be more than 2 million records in that database, if all the states cooperated fully. According to the Brady organization's records, Arizona was not even the worst offender — at least the state ramped up its reporting somewhat in the wake of Virginia Tech. But still, Arizona's own estimate is that the state has 121,700 records of disqualifying mental illness that should go into the NICS database. From the beginning of 2008 to October 2010, however, it submitted only 4,465 records. Worse than Arizona were states like Louisiana, which submitted only one record during that time frame, and Nebraska and Pennsylvania, which didn't submit any."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2041448,00.html#ixzz1AdfvU7bA

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 9:00 AM | Report abuse

"Lowering the temperature of public debate is a good idea on its own, but virtually unrelated to this assassin."

In your opinion.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 9:01 AM | Report abuse

The progressive "climate of hate": A comprehensive illustrated primer in 8 parts (2000-2010)
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

Own your seething hate-mongering venom, Leftists.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 9:03 AM | Report abuse

Last I heard Scott advocating the administration of legal justice isn't eliminationist rhetoric.

grip <--- get one

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:03 AM | Report abuse

For the sake of argument, let's take the politics out of this altogether for a moment. What are the practical matters people have raised in connection with the massacre? First, gun control. Second, treatment and care for the mentally ill. Now ask yourself what are the Right Wing positions on those two matters. No gun control. And the government shouldn't be in the business of providing health care. Undoubtedly, these two points will be vehemently attacked by the Right Wingers who decry all responsibility for their words, actions and policies. Until people have the courage to stand up to the Right WIng Hate Machine we will not make progress as a nation on anything.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 9:06 AM | Report abuse

Uh Scott? Last I heard the advocacy of legal justice for criminal behavior doesn't quite meet the metric for "eliminationist rhetoric."

Maybe you better go lie down for a while.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:07 AM | Report abuse

Imsinca, connecting the two issues - crazy and gun ownership - is the right direction, I think.

Yes, wbg, IMO the rhetoric I deplore is...deplorable. But as shrink did make clear, this fella was going to fit an external to his schizophrenic agenda, not vice versa - and what little we now know of him bears that out.

I have dealt with folks like this in the court system - especially when I was a young prosecutor. I really did understand what shrink was saying, and so would most metropolitan police.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 10, 2011 9:08 AM | Report abuse

FLASHBACK August 2010: Michael Enright (Leftist interfaith film company volunteer) stabbed an anti-mosque Muslim NYC cabbie and faces trial this year.
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/08/25/left-the-muslim-cabbie-stabbing-was-right-wing-islamophobia-oh-wait-a-minute/

Leftists rushed to lynch the entire Right for that "progressive" hate crime, too.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 9:09 AM | Report abuse

12BB, there are not enough crazies to keep you indoors, and Tucson is a lovely place. But there are some crazies, even in NoCal. even in Austin. Let us not become paralyzed by them. See Ezra Klein on this today.

==

Guns are illegal here, and I love it.

Of course a lot of kids have been doing kung fu since they were six and they can kick your head off your shoulders, but what of that.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:09 AM | Report abuse

If the democrats in Congress had not DISRESPECTED the American People with Reconciliation, and with the lame duck session after losing elections, the poltical atmosphere in this nation would be MUCH CALMER.


Seriously folks, the democrats have been CAUSING this negative atmosphere for over two years.

The NAACP resolution - again this past summer and this fall - dragging up FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM AGAIN.

The American People are SICK of the deceptions of the democrats. What the liberals have said on these boards over the past few years have been disgraceful.


The liberals KNOW what they are doing


___________________________


The FUNDAMENTAL problem is that Congress is supposed to REPRESENT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.


Instead, the liberals have decided to take DECEPTIVE CAMPAIGN THEMES, seize control of the government - AND PROCEED TO GOVERN AGAINST THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE


That is what has happened - plain and simple.


For the Obama paid trolls to come on the internet today to try to deny this CLEAR REALITY is just silly.


And alreaday we see the Obama people trying to blame the Tea Party - using a crime to advance their own POLTICAL SMEAR CAMPAIGN.


______________________

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 9:10 AM | Report abuse

Hey if violent psychotics can't buy automatic pistols, no man is truly free.

-- the NRA

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:12 AM | Report abuse

mark_in_austin writes
"If AZ enacts better background checks and gun licensing, that would be a positive."


One point I findi interesting is that, in AZ, one of the least restrictive states in terms of gun control, nobody returned fire. One of the arguments for liberal concealed carry laws and liberal purchasing laws is the idea that more guns make the world safer; that if more people are carrying, or *might* be carrying, the bad guys are less likely to act, or will conduct their crimes elsewhere. Does the safeway massacre refute that notion? The citizens who detained Loughner tackled him. No guns, no additional shots fired, just a tackle and hold.

Posted by: bsimon1 | January 10, 2011 9:14 AM | Report abuse

And I am willing to take positions regarding mental health and gun licensing [not gun bans - I am a shotgun owner, myself] that would help us identify and treat the mentally ill and help us keep guns out of their easy purchase. I would gladly argue these positions with anyone. WBG at 9:06AM, that was a focused example and I appreciated it.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 10, 2011 9:15 AM | Report abuse

And just imagine if there had been several armed people in the audience .. they hear a shot, they all yank out their guns at once, and look around for the shooter.

Thirty dead, easy.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:17 AM | Report abuse

"The Right Wing Hate Machine is responsible for the mainstreaming of anti-government extremist ideology."

So the unintelligible rantings of a psychotic are now mainstreamed. Reading your rantings is persuasive evidence that we do have a failure of policy dealing with the mentally ill or at least mentally challenged.

Thanks for that SPLC stuff, btw. Who could have predicted that based on no evidence they would label Loughner a right winger.


Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 9:17 AM | Report abuse

Good Lard, if RFR ever finds any of the other 87 keys on that victimhood piano, please take a photo.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 10, 2011 9:17 AM | Report abuse

"Paul Krugman says we need to cut the phony "even-handedness" and admit that the right is almost entirely to blame for the toxicity of our discourse"

Precisely.

We need to cut the BS and tell it like it is. The fact that Republicans are too afraid to challenge comments by Limbaugh and Beck is exactly the kind of political cowardice that leads to our current air of anti-American government violence.

This environment is ENTIRELY the fault of the Republicans and their cowardice for not standing up to people who are INTENTIONALLY using lies and propaganda to stir up hate against fellow Americans.

"Obama's Death Panels"
"Lock and Load"

The Republican Party, and the disingenuous band of cowards in their employ, is a disgrace to very IDEA of America.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 9:17 AM | Report abuse

"Paul Krugman says we need to cut the phony "even-handedness" and admit that the right is almost entirely to blame for the toxicity of our discourse"

Precisely.

We need to cut the BS and tell it like it is. The fact that Republicans are too afraid to challenge comments by Limbaugh and Beck is exactly the kind of political cowardice that leads to our current air of anti-American government violence.

This environment is ENTIRELY the fault of the Republicans and their cowardice for not standing up to people who are INTENTIONALLY using lies and propaganda to stir up hate against fellow Americans.

"Obama's Death Panels"
"Lock and Load"

The Republican Party, and the disingenuous band of cowards in their employ, is a disgrace to very IDEA of America.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 9:17 AM | Report abuse

mark

I also believe the two parties need to come together and settle the immigration issue in an adult manner. There have been many bi-partisan ideas in the pas,t and for border states like Arizona I think it's critical we have some resolution. Perhaps the senators from the states with the most dire immigration issues could work together on it. It's sort of the elephant in the room for wild rhetoric.

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 9:17 AM | Report abuse

"Yes, wbg, IMO the rhetoric I deplore is...deplorable."

ANd that's the end of that.

"But as shrink did make clear, this fella was going to fit an external to his schizophrenic agenda, not vice versa - and what little we now know of him bears that out."

With due respect to our resident Shrink, he has not examined the patient.

"I have dealt with folks like this in the court system - especially when I was a young prosecutor. I really did understand what shrink was saying, and so would most metropolitan police."

Yeah, well I've been representing criminal defendants and the mentally ill for 25 years and I still don't know what role Right WIng antigovernment hate played in this massacre. Neither do you. And it is nonsensical to preemptively declare that RIght Wing Hate rhetoric has nothing to do with this. Especially since, on its face, this is a quintessential political assassination: the attempted murder of a Democratic politician in a Conservative district occurring in a seething cauldron of Right Wing hate in a state that is Ground Zero for that drek. You'll excuse me if I'm not so quick to take Right Wing extremism off the table and preemptively exonerate its adherents.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 9:22 AM | Report abuse

"Does the safeway massacre refute that notion? The citizens who detained Loughner tackled him. No guns, no additional shots fired, just a tackle and hold."

I don't see how. If a couple of law-abiding citizens near the scene had been carrying, do you think he'd have had less chance of shooting 20 people? Seems pretty likely.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 9:26 AM | Report abuse

Any more info re: that anonymous "Senior GOP senator" who was afraid to use his or her name when saying that the Right has to tone down its rhetoric? Has he or she heard from Rush yet? Is a groveling apology forthcoming?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 9:27 AM | Report abuse

"Until people have the courage to stand up to the Right WIng Hate Machine we will not make progress as a nation on anything."

This is also precisely correct.

And it needs to happen on BOTH sides. BOTH parties need to stand up to indecent and provocative comments made by the lunatic mainstream right wing media.

But while BOTH parties need to stand up to right wing hatred, moderate and conservative Republicans really need to prove that they aren't cowed by the many bullies on the right.

The GOP needs to stand up and take control of their fringe ASAP before more lunatics get inspired by the right wing message of hate and violence.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 9:28 AM | Report abuse

And to wbgone's 9:06 post let me add two more Republican positions

(1) support for the wholesale exporting of jobs

(2) elimination of all social safety nets including unemployment insurance, welfare, social security.

Get a few hundred thousand people a week or more without a meal, no job and no chance of getting one, even less chance of any kind of assistance other than the occasional caprice of vastly overwhelmed charity, factor in cheap guns available to any and all, and mental illness will be the least of your worries

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:29 AM | Report abuse

Greg, you know that caothien9 has called for the gassing of all conservatives, so why haven't you banned him.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 9:30 AM | Report abuse

The GOP needs to stand up and take control of their fringe ASAP before more lunatics get inspired by the right wing message of hate and violence.

==

Why don't you wish for immortality and faster than light starships as long as you'e at it?

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:31 AM | Report abuse

"With due respect to our resident Shrink, he has not examined the patient."

Brilliant stuff. Neither have you, but you declared conservative rhetoric responsible a long time ago. And what would shrink know anyway compared to you.

"Yeah, well I've been representing criminal defendants and the mentally ill for 25 years and I still don't know what role Right WIng antigovernment hate played in this massacre. Neither do you."

Having second thoughts, now, huh. Or, you don't know, but it was okay to declare responsibility anyway.

The only hate and vitriol in evidence is from you, Ethan, Krugman, Dupnik, and the rest of your soulmates. You are the problem.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 9:34 AM | Report abuse

The propaganda ministers of the Democrat media are befuddled, bewildered, and exremely frustrated right now. They were hair-trigger ready to blast the TEA PARTY and Republicans for inciting vioence against innocent liberals in this murderous rampage.

Now they just don't know what to do. Fate has cheated them again.

Fron the looks of G.S.'s post above, it seems the Obamatons are trying, very hard, to craft spin in their favor without it seeming so.

That's a trick worthy of Clinton. Maybe Bill is advising, again.

Posted by: battleground51 | January 10, 2011 9:34 AM | Report abuse

Up and out the door for another week of dealing with the dangerously mentally ill and some meth freaks thrown in, but they usually clear up. We had a woman get better all of a sudden (at least wrt hallucinating and being delusional) last week and say, 'hey, I'm a drug addict, I didn't hurt anybody, let me out of here." Well, it wasn't like that a couple weeks prior, but she couldn't remember that far back. Her kids do I'm sure, she won't be seeing them again for a long time if we have our way.

I'm only a little annoyed the response is going to be to tighten security for the electeds. The ongoing danger of untreated mental illness is to family, children, pets, passersby. But if I were Lindsay Graham at his town hall the October before last, I would have been frightened.

Sure at least once a week at work I am frightened and withdraw behind burly staff and locked doors - so often my name is on papers delivered to people with news they really don't like. Point is politicians are in the position of appearing all too powerful to people who can't stand that. Actually I don't know what the point is, gotta go to work.

Oh and clearly, any hope that this incident is going to cause any political people to dial it back is lost. It looks like the opposite has happened. There will be some VaTech aftermath hand wringing about how Cho got his guns; a trivial matter, if you have money, you can buy anything, I know. There will be Ft. Hood shooter like hand wringing about how a grossly disturbed person was just passed on through as if someone else would deal with him elsewhere and they do don't they.

Don't get me wrong, the mentally ill in general are victims in far greater number than they are perps, they are often both depending on the day. I love working with the mentally ill, I like protecting the innocent, I love to see people reunited with their families, love it, love it. But don't ever let anyone tell you untreated mental illness isn't a dangerous condition.

Posted by: shrink2 | January 10, 2011 9:36 AM | Report abuse

Everyone trying to use this incident to justify a preconceived political agenda would do well to read the Mother Jones article that Greg linked above. I tried to quote it directly, but the post was blocked, probably by the profanity filter.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message

This is starting to seem more like the VA Tech shooter than Timothy McVeigh.

Posted by: jnc4p | January 10, 2011 9:39 AM | Report abuse

So the kid was virulently against abortion, against FIAT currency and NYT reported he was part of some anti-Semitic/anti-immigrant group.

Yup, he sounds like a big lib to me.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 9:43 AM | Report abuse

"Conservatives push back: The rundown on why it's supposedly unfair to tie the shooting to Sarah Palin's now-infamous Dem/crosshairs map."

"[S]upposedly," Greg? Are you, unlike everyone else, aware of some evidence linking them?

And why are you uncritically linking Krugman, Dionne, and Daou's inflammatory screeds? You've read enough to know there's no case that can be made against "right wing extreme rhetoric" that can't be made as or more strongly against the left. Heck, you seen the proof presented by me and others over a long period of time in these comment threads.

What happened to your resolve from yesterday for self-reflection instead of raising the rhetorical temperature against the other side?

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 9:43 AM | Report abuse

Hey, shrink.

Having had one friend who came home to a roommate holding a Bowie and screaming he was going to kill him for *eating his mother*, and a roommate of my own whose thrown knife missed me by less than a centimeter and went into the wall up to the hilt (for reasons that made the mother eating sound ilke the impeccable logic), I do hear what you say. I was lucking to get away with a broken arm, guarding my skull.

Dunno how you stand it.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:44 AM | Report abuse

I read the Mother Jones article. It says nothing about the role of Right WIng Hate rhetoric. It is some friend saying the guy was nutty. We all know that. THe question is whether his nuttiness was catalyzed or directed by antigovernment hate rhetoric. Or was it simply a random choice for him to attempt to assassinate this Congresswoman. The VA Tech shooter did not target elected federal officials. This guy did. Why?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 9:45 AM | Report abuse

"Tierney tells Mother Jones in an exclusive interview that Loughner held a years-long grudge against Giffords and had repeatedly derided her as a 'fake.'"

I'm surprised I haven't seen Holden Caulfield's name mentioned. That book has been blamed for everything, so why not pile on. That Mother Jone's piece is really good. SPLC, however, isn't the institution is once was. Too quick to tie groups and motives together

I think cases like this are kind of a Rorschach test. Everyone who posts here is political. So we view this through that mindset -- not to the exclusion of other possibilities, but heavily biased in that way. I think it's comforting to place the shooter as an "other" too. Helps to distance ourselves and pretend that we have some control. Better to think that he's an extremist going after members of congress, than a nut who easily could have directed his rage in a direction that hits closer to home.

It's incidents like this that make be glad I don't have cable. I can't imagine the display of stupid that must have been on this weekend.

Posted by: NoVAHockey | January 10, 2011 9:50 AM | Report abuse

@Greg...2 things:

First off, I want to commend your commentary on this tragedy. Clear-headed and insightful, it is probably one of the best posts I've seen on this blog...and as you know, I've been here a while. The top 3 pieces I have seen about this incident is your post, Krugman's op-ed this morning, and the interview Olbermann did with Josh Marshall from TPM. If people were to pick 3 things to try to understand this mess, they would be wise to look at those.

Second, while I agree that there was SOME good discussion in the comments over the weekend...there was also a lot of really nasty trolling going on. That nonsense was the reason I never spent more than 5 min. looking at the comments section of this blog over the weekend, and why I never took the time to participate. It wasn't everyone, but the spammers and trolls were out in full force (as I expected them to be), and it greatly took away from the site.

This isn't just "my" reading on the comments section, either. I linked your post to several friends who don't frequent this blog, and a couple (unprompted) said the comment sections, particularly the open threads, were so bad they didn't even consider registering.

Posted by: TheBBQChickenMadness | January 10, 2011 9:51 AM | Report abuse

Shrink:

You fight the Good Fight.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 9:51 AM | Report abuse

"The shooter was a leftist lunatic"


Yea, one who lost all faith in Obama's words.


The shooter CLEARLY stated

"What's government if words have no meaning"


A CLEAR REFERENCE to Obama's 2008 Campaign promises which have been BROKEN time and time again.


Remember the shooter is 22 years old - so he doesn't have decades of experience and watching politics to draw on.

________________________


The mocking and the harassment from the left on this blog is continuing even today.


Don't the liberals get it???


The message is KNOCK it off.


The town hall meetings, the Scott Brown election, the November election - ALL WARNINGS FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Telling the liberals to KNOCK it off.


And what do we get? The lame duck session in which the democrats DISRESPECT the election some more???


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 10, 2011 9:52 AM | Report abuse

wbg, to the extent that we are both assuming in advance of the evidence, I certainly accept your criticism.

Ims, if the governors of CA, AZ, NM, and TX all agreed on a border reform issue or an immigration reform issue they could probably sell it to their delegations who could probably sell it to DC.

If Jerry Brown and Rick Perry agreed that national ID cards and the resulting ability to actually enforce workplace laws was a priority that might have a chance. If they agreed on a renewal of Bracero that might have a chance.

I would not expect that agreements would outnumber disagreements, however. Worth a try, though.

Bsimon -

Before she became famous in TX, I represented Dr. Gratia. She was a decent kind person and I am sure she remains one. She
watched a crazed gunman murder her aging parents while she and they were having dinner in a cafeteria in Killeen. She became certain that if she had had a gun in her purse she would have saved her parents.

She asked me for help in lobbying for concealed weapons, then barred in TX. I debated with her. She left me as her lawyer, but not with rancor. She carried her fight as a citizen, first, then she ran for and won a seat in the Lege. She finally got her concealed weapons and open carry permit passed.

Yet:

I do not believe that I have ever read a report of a public street crime interdicted by a civilian gunman in TX. Shopkeepers and homeowners have shot would be robbers and burglars, but I have not read of an interdiction on a public street.

This is a big state, and perhaps this happens in, say, Laredo, all the time. I would not have read about it, most likely.

Any other Texans here know?

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 10, 2011 9:54 AM | Report abuse

@shrink

I left the blog a couple of months ago. Needed a break from the hostility. You had been on about a month then and I was already impressed by your posts.

This incident has only left me more impressed and so again shrink I thank you for what you bring to the blog and for your service to society.

You must be an amazing person. I find the mentally ill terribly sad and frustrating.
Especially those who can be sooo normal one moment yet have unrevealed paranoia and delusions like my poor sister in law.

Just wanted to thank you again for your service to society in an area that has historically gotten short shrift and is still currently an largely unaddressed problem as you so clearly have pointed out.

THANKS!

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 9:54 AM | Report abuse

Look, 20% of the right wing thinks Obama was born in Kenya or some other stupid crap like that. If they commit a crime, do they get sympathy for their obviously crazy ideas?

There's this from the NYT:

"Don Coorough, 58, who sat two desks in front of Mr. Loughner in a poetry class last semester, described him as a “troubled young man” and “emotionally underdeveloped.” After another student read a poem about getting an abortion, Mr. Loughner compared the young woman to a “terrorist for killing the baby.”"

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 9:55 AM | Report abuse

I don't see how. If a couple of law-abiding citizens near the scene had been carrying, do you think he'd have had less chance of shooting 20 people? Seems pretty likely.
Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 9:26

---

Instead of one nut with a gun, it would have been a cross-fire. He got the first shot off point blank and then was firing wildly. I have my doubts that anyone could have reacted, gotten their gun out, and an aimed shot before he emptied the clip. Which means the second shooter would have been firing at the person while the lady grabbed the second clip and he was being tackled.

Could someone have done better? Perhaps an off-duty cop. However, AZ has no registration or training requirements for carrying concealed weapons. Random person in the crowd carrying a weapon? No.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 10, 2011 9:55 AM | Report abuse

"And it is nonsensical to preemptively declare that RIght Wing Hate rhetoric has nothing to do with this. Especially since, on its face, this is a quintessential political assassination: the attempted murder of a Democratic politician in a Conservative district occurring in a seething cauldron of Right Wing hate in a state that is Ground Zero for that drek. You'll excuse me if I'm not so quick to take Right Wing extremism off the table and preemptively exonerate its adherents."

juxtaposed with

"Everyone trying to use this incident to justify a preconceived political agenda"

Nothing to add.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 9:55 AM | Report abuse

The three states in the biggest financial trouble are overwhelmingly liberal, Democrat states.

Cause and effect, to be sure. Liberal Democrat is the cause and bankruptcy the effect and end result.

The Obamanation is a liberal, Democrat state that has taken hold nationally. Thankfully, its hold was loosened, in Novemeber but it still has two icy claws around our necks.

America must take heed the lessons of California and its bleeding sister states. Liberalism run amok ends in third-world style bankruptcy and eventual chaos.

Abort the Obamanation and save America. 2012 is just around the corner.

Posted by: battleground51 | January 10, 2011 9:58 AM | Report abuse

Hey Greg, not sure if you're reading this but it's a request on blog format that I'm sure others would like, especially if we access the site from a hand held device which is slowly becoming more prevalent.

On another blog I frequent, near the top of the post, is a hyperlink that brings you to the bottom of the comments section. It's a change that would be fairly simple for the web designers and would make the blog more user friendly to pop to the top and bottom of the blog entry.

Once comments get kinda long it take some time scrolling through them all after a refresh.

Thanks.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 9:58 AM | Report abuse

"Better to think that he's an extremist going after members of congress, than a nut who easily could have directed his rage in a direction that hits closer to home."

That isn't better. It is far worse. This is an attack on open democratic government. When the mentally ill among us are steered toward hating government that is where their illness will take them. It simply illustrates yet again how pernicious the Right Wing antigovernment rhetoric is.

But put that aside. What about concrete issues like gun control and providing care for the mentally ill? Will Conservatives agree that those items should be considered in light of this tragedy? Or is that also verboten per the Right WIng PC police?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 9:58 AM | Report abuse

"I read the Mother Jones article. It says nothing about the role of Right WIng Hate rhetoric. It is some friend saying the guy was nutty. We all know that. THe question is whether his nuttiness was catalyzed or directed by antigovernment hate rhetoric. Or was it simply a random choice for him to attempt to assassinate this Congresswoman. The VA Tech shooter did not target elected federal officials. This guy did. Why?"

Your "logic" is really impeccable. There is hard proof he was focused on Giffords in 2007. The friend who attended her meet and greet with him then says he was a lefty and said Giffords didn't understand his question. She didn't get it. Was he acting on subliminal messages from Sarah Palin then?

Then he went psychotic. At which point rational thought was not directing him. He might have thought she was an invader from another dimension, or his evil twin, or was putting radioactive poison in his refrigerator. See, that's the point with psychosis. It isn't rational.

Your own hatred and anger have overcome your own reason. You are now "withholding judgment" when there is no evidence supporting you and a wealth saying you are full of it. Because you hate conservatives and want to destroy us. You even fancy yourself more of an expert than an actual psychiatrist who deals with cases like this.

You are the problem.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 10:00 AM | Report abuse

BB - Ha! The argument I made to Dr. Gratia thirty years ago! We do have some training under our permit law, perhaps as a result?

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 10, 2011 10:03 AM | Report abuse

@Greg

Technical note: "Lucid Dreaming" not about creating an alternate reality. It's merely the act of recognizing when you are dreaming and being aware of it during the dream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream

It certainly seems possible that a person who constantly becomes aware that they are dreaming (and in doing so can control the dream) might get lost within that "power". A disturbed person could very well begin to build an alternate reality that suits their delusions...but the act of "Lucid Dreaming" itself is not about "creating an alternate reality with conscious day-dreaming."

A more accurate way to phrase that would be:

"...ie the art of being aware of and controling the reality within one's own dreams."

A little Inception-y, sure, but more accurate.

Posted by: TheBBQChickenMadness | January 10, 2011 10:04 AM | Report abuse

The three states in the biggest financial trouble are overwhelmingly liberal, Democrat states.

Posted by: battleground51 | January 10, 2011 9:58 AM | Report abuse

---

Texas is an overwhelmingly liberal state? It's got a projected shortfall of $25 billion (yes, that's with a B) coming up. http://www.texastribune.org/texas-taxes/2011-budget-shortfall/ This despite having an economy that largely rode out the recession.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 10, 2011 10:04 AM | Report abuse

California had a Republican Gov. for the last 8 years?

California gave us Reagan who taught the U.S. Govn't how to really grow a deficit.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:06 AM | Report abuse

"Instead of one nut with a gun, it would have been a cross-fire. He got the first shot off point blank and then was firing wildly. I have my doubts that anyone could have reacted, gotten their gun out, and an aimed shot before he emptied the clip. Which means the second shooter would have been firing at the person while the lady grabbed the second clip and he was being tackled."

The point is, none of us knows. I haven't even heard how long the shooting took, but in the time it took him to shoot 20 people, it's certainly a reasonable possibility that a skilled person carrying a gun could have drawn and shot Loughner before he finished all that shooting.

Crossfire? Certainly an issue. But is that worse than just letter him continue to execute people? I doubt it.

If I had been there, I'd have wished someone else had a gun. Seems obvious to me.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Him having access to an extended clip seemed to compound the problem no doubt. Only when he was forced to reload was he taken down.


Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:11 AM | Report abuse

Someone else used "inflammatory rhetoric" against Giffords:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/9/934674/-My-Apologies-to-This-Site,-The-Victims,-and-Rep.-Gabrielle-Giffords

Not to mention that Moulitsas himself used the words "target list" as to Rep. Giffords ("bull's eye" as to this race too, since that is now code for solicitation of murder). How awkward. Too bad that BB's suicide attempt wasn't successful.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 10:12 AM | Report abuse

"Fox News reported on a law enforcement memo which states that there is "no direct connection" between Loughner and the extremist American Renaissance group. But, the memo states, "strong suspicion is being directed at AmRen / American Renaissance. Suspect is possibly linked to this group. (through videos posted on his MySpace and YouTube account.). The group's ideology is anti-government, anti-immigration, anti-ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government), anti-Semitic."

Loughner, Politico points out, seems to have been influenced by David Wynn Miller, a conspiracy theorist who believes, as Loughner wrote in one of his videos, that "the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar."

But Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center writes that it's "hard to say" if Loughner is a right-wing extremist. "When you look at the Internet material he purportedly produced, the first impression you get is that the 22-year-old now in custody for the shooting of 19 people in Tucson was completely out of his mind, or at least mildly deranged," Potok writes. "His writings will be virtually impossible for most people to understand, what with his references to unexplained numbers, his fondness for weird syllogisms, his unexplained references and his apparent semi-literacy."

"At this early stage, I think Loughner is probably best described as a mentally ill or unstable person who was influenced by the rhetoric and demonizing propaganda around him," Potok writes. "Ideology may not explain why he allegedly killed, but it could help explain how he selected his target."


http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/what_we_know_about_attempted_gabby_giffords_assassin_jared_lee_loughner.php?ref=fpa

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 10:13 AM | Report abuse

hey battleground, at least Texas is in great shape .. the very crucible of conservative economics, and its fiscal condition a shining example of success.

Oh, wait.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 10:16 AM | Report abuse

Here's a blast from the past...

"The Secret Service warned the Obama family in mid October that they had seen a dramatic increase in the number of threats against the Democratic candidate, coinciding with Mrs Palin's attacks.

Michelle Obama, the future First Lady, was so upset that she turned to her friend and campaign adviser Valerie Jarrett and said: "Why would they try to make people hate us?"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/sarah-palin/3405336/Sarah-Palin-blamed-by-the-US-Secret-Service-for-death-threats-against-Barack-Obama.html

Maybe the secret service is in cahoots with the left wing on a smear campaign of Sarah Palin too.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:16 AM | Report abuse

"A classmate of the man accused of shooting Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords this morning describes him as "left wing" and a "pot head" in a series of posts on Twitter this afternoon".


Oops! Left-wing?? That person must have meant the rightmost side of the left-wing.

"She describes him as "quite liberal" and as a "political radical."

Ooops! Can this be??

Let's not rush to judgment here.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/01/jared_loughner_alleged_shooter.php

Posted by: battleground51 | January 10, 2011 10:19 AM | Report abuse

"Someone else used "inflammatory rhetoric" against Giffords:'

Yet, a typically left-wing "apology," flaming all the way against the other side and assuming it will "inevitably" turn out Loughner is part of the "far right."

This anonymous hack is scum of scum.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 10:20 AM | Report abuse

Well clawrence, at least that individual had the courage to come out and admit they crossed a line.

You would think Sarah, rather than just scrubbing her web site of the cross hair diagrams would have the decency to do the same. Instead she'll just continue on being a trashy individual and pretend turning your political opponents into enemies of the state and humanity is just all in fun.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:20 AM | Report abuse

"That isn't better. It is far worse. This is an attack on open democratic government."

Not really. Tim McVeigh was an open attack on government. He was a lot of things, but crazy wasn't one of them. It's not looking like we can say the same thing about this shooter. I think anti-government rhetoric is too easy a reason. I also think that it's comforting for us to link his actions to something concrete, something to which we can assign blame. We're not ready to accept the fact that someone can act irrationally or is that divorced from reality. If it's simply rage directed at government I can tell myself I'm safe, that others are responsible and can be held accountable. If it's incoherent, any one of us could have been his target for any number of bizarre reasons and there's really nobody to blame. I'm saying it helps us make sense of this by assigning a "logical" reason for his actions. That's less terrifying than gunman opens fire b/c of his own personal demons -- because that means accepting that every time I go out of the house, I really don't have any control over the situation.

Posted by: NoVAHockey | January 10, 2011 10:20 AM | Report abuse

What else is happening Greg?

As usual, it's what is not happening that is significant.

Instead of celebrating the Greatness of America and the foresight of OUR founders, every Bat from the Caves of Progressively Progressive Nutdom has swooped down to your insignificant blog site to help slide down the slippery slope of mayhem and megalomania for all.

Leftists never take the responsibility for what they cause and always look for ways to take credit for what they never, never deserve credit for. They are embedded in the Wright Wing of the Despisemocrat Party, the ABMSNBDNCNNPBSR Public-Private, Government-Media Complex @ the moveon.ogre belfry that give all the President's Mice, upside down glasses that keeps them seeing, hearing, and saying just what the Kevorkians of the World order want them to hear, and who are the cause of the tragedy in Tucson. These mutants from diseducation-land hold others to a virtual standard, kept in their Ego Lock-Box, and are the real core of the problem in this country. They are easily led around by their keyword trigger chip, and could be the next terrorist...think back to when the President (and some congress people) called out SEIU and the ACORN crazies to show up at a Wall Street Executive's house, screaming and intimidating, all the while they and the whole bunch of you people, the irresponsible parties, looked on dispassionately, as if they had nothing to do with it.

No the Excuse-in-Chief is not to blaaame for what happened in Tucson, and the blame should stay in Tuscon, and with the Blog-Crats who pander to the trigger chip in every wired backward motherboard in Liberaland.

Instead of bending over backwards trying to out self-condescend each other, try honoring the three American heroes who took down this "Allahu Akbar" shouting piece of human trash, without whom there would have been more causualties by his hand and your mouthpieces from mayhem.

Y'all aren't to blame, but *amned sure bet'cha are absolutely, positively, without a doubt the most un-useful idiots that ever wasted the oxygen we all need a fresh breath of now.

Posted by: FreeNomore | January 10, 2011 10:21 AM | Report abuse

I am not anti 2nd Amendment rights nor am I anti-gun, like another poster here I possess a shotgun for defense of my home.

I simply wish to post an observation from my days in the Army and in Vietnam. There have been several references, as there always is in tragic shootings, that a couple of armed citizens might have at least saved a few lives by dropping the gunman. One person commented, not really we would have simply had a crossfire...Amen..perhaps more citizens would have been wounded.

Back to the Army. 1967..8 weeks of basic training a week spent on the rifle range with more time spent on learning about disassembling and cleaning our weapons.
Those who went into the infantry got another 8 weeks at Fort Polk Tigerland...I didn't go there but had friends who did...lots more instruction and practice with the weapons.

Fast forward to Vietnam...how did all of this training play out...not really all that well...I've been on bases where soldiers had to point their weapons into a 55 gal sand filled barrel and pull the trigger to make sure the chamber was cleared...do you realize that some poor shmoes were really not intellectually meant to be trusted with firearms and pointed a weapon without a clip forgetting a chambered round and killed their friend.
The number of "friendly fire" incidents were completely downplayed and concentrated mostly on the dramatic...calling in the jets and a misplaced bomb...but there were plenty of of other incidents of stupidity on base with firearms costing lives.

Point being if a highly trained force of men have these kinds of problems how do we suppose we feel about all these AMATEURS who are running around armed without much training...perhaps a three hour introductory course at the range...most just hunt, plunk cans or whatever...fine have fun. But I get no sense of safety whatsoever by living in an armed citizenry.
In fact it makes me very very nervous.

Back from the general to the specific...this horrible event. An armed citizen or two would not have made a difference...unless of course your talking about Wyatt Earp with a gun in his side holster and a fast draw. Folks that is movies and TV. Presumbably the armed person would have to pull the weapon from a holster or wherever it was stored, hopefully they are not stupid enough to carry it with a round chambered, so they have to get their weapon retrieved, ready, and finally take aim in a horribly confusing situation. Meanwhile the heroic staffer who tackled the shooter would have already had him on the ground and secure long before an armed citizen could have effectively responded.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 10:22 AM | Report abuse

"Ooops! Can this be??

Let's not rush to judgment here."

Because left wingers are concerned about abortion being like terrorism, FIAT currency, Govn't encroachment and belong to a group that is anti-Semitic and anti-immigrant as the NYT reported.

Me thinks his friend doesn't know what left is from right.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:24 AM | Report abuse

ruk:

So these practical questions are immediately pressing from the massacre:

1. Assault weapons ban. Why was this person able to inflect so much damage so fast?

2. Adequate security checks before purchasing firearms. He bought the gun a month before the killings, apparently when he was obviously mentally ill. How did that happen?

3. Concealed carry laws. AZ just enacted a law allowing people to carry concealed weapons. Did that help the killer?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 10:29 AM | Report abuse

The Second Amendment junkies are too far gone in fanaticism for this incident to bring us any closer to rational revision of firearm access than any of the events that have gone before. Ever tried talking gun control with one of them? Like a puppy chasing its tail. The answer to everything is more guns. They simply can't allow themselves to rationally approach the idea of keeping even some guns out of the hands of some people, not even the violently mentally ill,much less drunken ex-boyfriends.

I've even heard them say that the Second guarantees access to tanks, to helicopter gunships. To nuclear weapons.

People like that need to be institutionalized.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 10:29 AM | Report abuse

Good morning ruk

I'm glad you're back. I'm looking into Veteran's for Peace in case you're interested. Still reading from their website and I know some of them were arrested recently but all charges were dropped. If my Dad were still alive he'd probably advise me against it in very strong terms. LOL

We're getting our slash and burn budget today, it's going to be really painful, are things any better in FL?

Posted by: lmsinca | January 10, 2011 10:32 AM | Report abuse

ruk,

With all due respect, I think you aren't very informed about a lot of the folks who have permits and carry weapons in this country and how often guns are successfully used to stop criminals. Sure, there are no guarantees whether someone faced with the situation would have been able to take the guy out, but in fact it happens all the time in this country. There are many handgun owners who consistently train with them.

No doubt, lots of people are clutsy. On the other hand, you are also talking about confronting a 22 year old psychotic, and you have no idea what his skills were. Yet he was able to shoot 20 people. You think it is ridiculous to think a sane person with a gun he consistently trained with had no chance of shooting the guy before he hit victim #20? Or 15? I think that's just not common sense. People eventually subdued him physically. There's no reason to think someone with a weapon couldn't have hit him before that as well.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 10:32 AM | Report abuse

The day before the attempted assassination of a sitting Democratic Congressperson:

"Package Addressed to Janet Napolitano Ignites at Washington D.C. Post Office"

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/package-addressed-janet-napolitano-ignites-washington-dc-post/story?id=12570617

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 10:35 AM | Report abuse

Questions: Was the mental status of the shooter ever formally ajudicated? Who in a position of responsibility knew of the this person's mental status? what, if anything did they do with the insight they had?

It seems to me that the issue of "gun control" is just another lefty stalking horse. We have a right to keep and bear arms and the government has a duty to prove that we should, for the benefit of others, be denied that right. If there was never any formal ajudication of this person's relative danger to himself and others, on what basis is "gun control" to operate?

Are the gun control folks saying that the owners of gun shops must now do a psychological profile of their customers before completing a sale?

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 10, 2011 10:36 AM | Report abuse

Think y'all need a scubbing...

...and somebody pleeease tell Dupnik, the Sheriff of Nuttingham, we don't appreciate his political analysis, stick to his specialty. We will worry about who, and where mecca is.

"Man with ties to Schuylkill County says he helped subdue Arizona shooter"

"A man with ties to Schuylkill County told The Republican-Herald on Saturday that he is one of two men who tackled Arizona shooting suspect Jared Loughner."

"Six people were killed in Saturday's shooting...including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz."

"I heard the shots but I thought they were fireworks at first," Bill Badger, a retired army colonel, said in a telephone interview Saturday afternoon. "I wasn't sure they were shots until I actually saw the shooter, and I was sure he was really shooting bullets when I felt the sting on the back of my head."

Although authorities would not confirm...A local hospital confirmed later Saturday that Badger was treated and released for an undisclosed injury.

Badger...helped hold the shooter on the ground until police arrived.

Badger...the first person standing next to a row of about 12 chairs leading to Giffords.

"There was a couple standing next to me and I was speaking to them. When he started to shoot, I remember stepping back a little. I would say he was about 25 feet away from me," Badger said. "I turned and saw him running down the line of people on the chairs. He ran between me and the store. Someone hit him with a chair and he flinched a little. That's when I grabbed his left arm. Someone grabbed his right arm and we got him to the ground. The other guy put his knee into the back of his neck and I grabbed him around the throat. We held him until police got there. While we had him on the ground I saw blood running and it wasn't until then I realized it was coming from the back of my head."

Badger said he was questioned by a deputy sheriff at the scene and two more times after that, including an interview at the hospital..."He said he would be gone an hour," Badger's wife said Saturday. "The next thing I know, he was calling me telling me, 'Sallie, I'm shot. I'm shot.' He said he was going to St. Mary's Hospital."...St. Mary's Hospital in Tucson, confirmed Saturday that Badger was treated and released from the facility...Sallie Badger said she and her husband spoke many times about what they would do in situation similar to Saturday's shooting.

"We both feel very strongly you have to act," she said. "That's the kind of man he is. He was a real hero today."...Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told The Associated Press on Saturday that the rampage ended only after two people tackled the gunman, although he did not say who those two people were...]

by leslie Richardson (staff writer lrichardson@republicanherald.com) Published: January 9, 2011

There is also reportedly a woman (not injured) who grabbed the gun after Badger and another man tackled the PERP.

So keep on...

Posted by: FreeNomore | January 10, 2011 10:36 AM | Report abuse

@NoVA: "Tim McVeigh was an open attack on government. He was a lot of things, but crazy wasn't one of them"

What an unbelievably asinine comment.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 10:37 AM | Report abuse

I intend to honor the President's call for a moment of silence at 11.

Later, All.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 10:37 AM | Report abuse

@mikefromArlington: Enter the Leftist-fascist Hall-of-Shame and BEHOLD the Leftist anti-Semitic hate.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

Brace yourself: The satanic Westboro cult will protest at little Christina’s funeral.
http://hillbuzz.org/2011/01/09/brace-yourselves-democrat-fred-phelps-and-westboro-hate-group-announce-plans-to-picket-9-year-old-shooting-victim-christina-greenes-funeral-a-new-low-for-democrat-hate-groups/

“The Left does some truly despicable things in this world, but this is a new low for Democrats. Former three-time Democrat gubernatorial candidate Fred Phelps Jr. and his Westboro Hate Group have announced plans to disrupt the funeral of 9 year-old shooting victim Christina Greene."

/spit

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 10:38 AM | Report abuse

Are the gun control folks saying that the owners of gun shops must now do a psychological profile of their customers before completing a sale?

==

I don't think any profiling is needed to determine that you shouldn't be trusted with a weapon. Sounds like your grasp of how things work in the world is seriousy deficient.

Ever heard of things like "showing identification" and "databases?"

Wow. And I thought GHWB was out of it with checkout scanners.

Hey skip. The year is 2011.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 10:40 AM | Report abuse

mikefromArlington, Sarah didn't cross the line, nor do I agree with your other mischaracterizations.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 10:41 AM | Report abuse

Hey, Palin-hating lynch mob.

Feel the Leftist hate target rage.
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=13647

[Source: Democratic Leadership Committee website]

Own it.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Kaddaffidelablbla:

Broun, a Republican, sees civil war looming on the horizon. "Fellow patriots, we have a lot of domestic enemies of the Constitution, and they're right down the Mall, in the Congress of the United States -- and right down Independence Avenue in the White House that belongs to us," Broun told the crowd. "It's not about my ability to hunt, which I love to do. It's not about the ability for me to protect my family and property against criminals, which we have the right to do. But it's all about us protecting ourselves from a tyrannical government of the United States."

Oh and Kaddaffi, nobody defends Westboro, ever.

Every right winger is defending Sarah Palin's disgusting rhetoric.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:42 AM | Report abuse

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs064.snc6/167453_1594192532562_1168383235_31336574_5730295_n.jpg

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 10:45 AM | Report abuse

The inmates clearly have control over the asylum.

Such will be the case until Republicans stand up to the loudest screaming paranoid voices in their own party.

Sarah & Todd Palin
Rush Limbaugh
Glenn Beck
Floyd Brown
Mark Williams
Dick Armey
Michelle Bachmann
Steve King

and on down the line...

Republicans need to stand up and condemn the vitriol and hatred, that exists in their party, against the American government and the American people.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 10:46 AM | Report abuse

One last note for the Right Wingers bravely defending Sarah Palin's hate-mongering. I know this won't compute in the Right Wing brain but Democrats and Liberals hope that Palin is the GOP 2012 presidential nominee because that is the only thing that will ensure Obama's reelection.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 10:47 AM | Report abuse

"Sarah didn't cross the line"

Commonsense Conservatives & lovers of America: "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!" Pls see my Facebook page. 9:31 AM Mar 23rd, 2010 via OpenBeak Retweeted by 100+ people

SarahPalinUSA
Sarah Palin

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:47 AM | Report abuse

@mikefromArlington: FLASHBACK 2009: D.C. Council member Marion Barry (D-Ward 8) "All hell is going to break lose," Barry said while speaking to reporters. "We may have a CIVIL WAR! The black community is just adamant against this."

Own the Democrat hate-mongering rhetoric, mikey.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 10:48 AM | Report abuse

Well, Angle's "Second Amendment Remedies" statement would seem for fall squarely in the definintion of "menacing language towards lawmakers", would it not? In the interview, she did not directly speak to Harry Reid, but she mentions the "Harry Reid problem".

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 10, 2011 10:49 AM | Report abuse

@NoVA: "Tim McVeigh was an open attack on government. He was a lot of things, but crazy wasn't one of them"

"What an unbelievably asinine comment."


Good morning Ethan -- I think we've established that I'm posting in good faith. But I'm happy to rephrase for clarity. McVeigh was "crazy" in the sense that he decided it was okay to blow up a building and killed people. But he was not delusional. McVeigh was not psychotic. He clearly explained why he did what he did. I'm not sure we can expect a clear, rational answer from the shooter. That's what I meant by McVeigh not being crazy. Do you think the shooter is going to be found competent to stand trial? That's what I'm getting at.

Posted by: NoVAHockey | January 10, 2011 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Republicans need to stand up and condemn the vitriol and hatred, that exists in their party, against the American government and the American people.

==

Pretty much anyone who has that much decency left the GOP by now. If not by 2004.

Those who are left are the ones I don't shrink from speaking of in terms that get a few people one here all bunched up in the undies. I mean, if you're still a loyal Republican when your party is so goddamned nutty, so racist, so indifferent toward working people, the poor, the elderly, the environment .. something essential is missing.

Just read some posts by the defenders here. If you've the stomach.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 10:52 AM | Report abuse

mikefromArlington, you think that she meant that literally as opposed to actual violence in the streets a la Marion Barry?

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 10:52 AM | Report abuse

I think Barry is an idiot and I don't agree with anything he says yet conservatives can own up to the fact Sarah Palin crosses the line and should apologize for her over the top rhetoric.

She's toxic history.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:52 AM | Report abuse

@mikefromArlington: FLASHBACK 2009: D.C. Council member Marion Barry (D-Ward 8) "All hell is going to break lose," Barry said while speaking to reporters. "We may have a CIVIL WAR! The black community is just adamant against this."
______________________________

FINALLY someone has hit this in the head.
Marion Barry=Sarah Palin.
I would agree with that!

Posted by: somethingelse2 | January 10, 2011 10:53 AM | Report abuse

I'm not making excuses for Barry. The guy is an idiot.

But also what I'm not doing is making excuses for Palin's disgusting way of firing up the base with talk about reloading to take back the country from terrorist loving people.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:55 AM | Report abuse

Democrats are politically exploiting this shooting by attacking Sarah Palin for setting up a list of "targeted" Democrat members of Congress last year.

They conveniently forget that defeated Democrat Congressman Harry Mitchell did the same thing to JD Hayworth (R-AZ) a few years ago (right there in Arizona), running a campaign ad featuring JD Hayworth in the crosshairs of a rifle.
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2011/01/09/sarah-palin-democrats-forget-they-put-jd-hayworth-in-crosshairs/

Own the rhetorical hate-mongering, Leftists.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 10:56 AM | Report abuse

"conservatives can't own up"

Correction, from can to can't.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:57 AM | Report abuse

clawrence12

Greg, you know that caothien9 has called for the gassing of all conservatives, so why haven't you banned him.
----------------------------------------

What kind of gas is he recommending, maybe cao is just stealing a line from the French soldier in Monty Python.

-------------------------------------------

The only problem I have with attempting to assign a political persuasion to Mr. Laughner is that it is serving as a way to avoid discussing the indefensible rhetoric all too often used in present day politics. Perhaps Palin's cross-hairs map or Angle's second amendment solutions comments are not the cause of this violent attack. There is no doubt, however, that those comments make violence like this less likely, or in any way discourage actions like this. If you just stop using that sort of language, then you don't have to remove them from you website or pull tweets from alleged friends of the shooter as a way to distance yourself from this sort of tragedy.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 10, 2011 10:57 AM | Report abuse

NoVAHockey, if I may.

McVeigh was morally insane, not cognitively insane. The AZ shooter is psychotic. His online writings make no sense.

Both responded to the allure of right wing rhetoric. Both might have gone in nonlethal directions with their respective deficits in the absence of that allure.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 10:58 AM | Report abuse

Thank you for your clarification NoVA. I understand your point, and agree on substance. But, if nothing else, this is just an example of how we need to be careful about our words and be willing to reflect critically on our own comments or those of our associates.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 10:59 AM | Report abuse

Kaddafi, someone doing in the past doesn't make it O.K.

I don't agree with that past ad but I don't think someone tried to take out J.D. Hayworth either. If someone did, people would be justifiably angry at his opponent.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 10:59 AM | Report abuse

Can anyone imagine TEA ralliers fantasizing about Obama's severed head?
http://www.lookingattheleft.com/2008/10/festival-of-obama/

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 11:00 AM | Report abuse

Figurative "Don't Retreat, Instead RELOAD!" does not cross any line. Look up LBJ's Daisy ad.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 11:02 AM | Report abuse

@ashot: nitrous oxide of course.

get them all giggly and stumbling around, it'd shut them up on all the people they hate for a while

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 11:02 AM | Report abuse

Can Leftists imagine a Gifford effigy hung from a noose?
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/27/can-you-imagine-if-an-obama-effigy-were-hung-from-a-noose/

Own the Leftist violent rhetoric and vitriol.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 11:02 AM | Report abuse

This psycho-lefty shooter's history with Giffords and derangement goes back to 2007 per the writings found in his safe yesterday.

Palin was an unknown governor then and the tea parties movement hadn't even started... but let's not let facts get in the way of the left's routine blood libel that comes out whenever one of these tragic events occurs.

Oh Wait... I forgot about Rove's time travel machine. It sits right next to the Evil-Plan-O-Matic!

(Now back to my day job as Underage Labor Supervisor at the PalinRoveCo machinegun and white phosphorus grenade factory under Denver International Airport)

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 11:05 AM | Report abuse

Obama's Leftist "progressives" spent the last decade on CNN committing acts of criminal mayhem during their kristalnaght-style, anti-Semitic gutter riots (masquerading as "peace" protests) in support of Islamo-supremacism to achieve their hate-America political agenda. http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame

Yet Leftists now have the temerity to climb up on their hind legs (without a shred of evidence) and howl about (alleged) "violent rhetoric" from Taxed Enough Already (TEA) ralliers?

This shooter was one of your own. Own him.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Dem. Rep. Carolyn McCarthy Plans New Gun Control Bill in Wake of Giffords Shooting

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20027986-503544.html

Expect the Right Wing attacks in 5, 4, 3 .... I'll save time: this is the action of deranged individual and that's all there is to the matter. The facts that he killed so many, that he got this weapon a month before the massacre, that he suffered from untreated mental illness, that AZ is a hot-bed of Right Wing hate, and that he targeted a Democratic Politician in a GOP state are all irrelevant and cannot be discussed according to the COnservative PV police.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 11:09 AM | Report abuse

Erratum:

"Conservative PC police"

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 11:10 AM | Report abuse

@claw-

And LBJ had that ad pulled after one airing because it was over the line.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 10, 2011 11:11 AM | Report abuse

"Figurative "Don't Retreat, Instead RELOAD!" does not cross any line."

Can you explain to me why people started arming themselves at political events with assault riffles and the right was defending that right then?

The result of this lunatic is that now some lawmakers are going to start arming themselves. Now what, everyone starts arming themselves.

Last thing I want is a bunch of people pissed off at each other armed and ready.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 10, 2011 11:12 AM | Report abuse

"that AZ is a hot-bed of Left Wing hate,"

Corrected that for you. Sheriff of Nuttingham being Exhibit A.

It's obviously Obama's fault, since he's the only politician who has explicitly called for bringing guns to political events.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 11:12 AM | Report abuse

They conveniently forget that defeated Democrat Congressman Harry Mitchell did the same thing to JD Hayworth (R-AZ) a few years ago (right there in Arizona), running a campaign ad featuring JD Hayworth in the crosshairs of a rifle.
-----------------------------------------

Yep, and right after that there was an assassination attempt of a conservative politician, right?

Among all these posts and articles that make you lose all hope of cooperation and respectful disagreement, here's an article that shows it can be done:

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/3365.aspx

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 10, 2011 11:12 AM | Report abuse

btw, zombietime.com and michellemalkin.com are GREAT sources!
I use them all the time...

Posted by: somethingelse2 | January 10, 2011 11:14 AM | Report abuse

"Dem. Rep. Carolyn McCarthy Plans New Gun Control Bill in Wake of Giffords Shooting"

ABSOLUTELY. Thank you Congresswoman McCarthy.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 11:15 AM | Report abuse

[ashotinthedark drooled: "Yep, and right after that there was an assassination attempt of a conservative politician, right?"]

Nope. Leftists have the monopoly on assasination chic.
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

Own the climate of hate, Leftists. The shooter is all yours.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 11:17 AM | Report abuse

@wbgonne: "“The idea weirdly enough of controlling grammar, of somehow the government using grammar to control the people is an idea that exists on the radical right."

A quick quiz for my fellow right wing maniacs. Who here believes this? Troll? Scott? Bueller?

What completely and utter bs.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Oh, great a Gun Control Debate...
- Chicago murder rate
- DC murder rate
... toughest gun control laws in the nation.

Next.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 11:17 AM | Report abuse

"Among all these posts and articles that make you lose all hope of cooperation and respectful disagreement,"

That is 100% on the heads of the left, from whose blackened hearts the obvious and only possible response was to politicize and blame conservatives for the acts of a psychotic who by all available evidence was a liberal, to the extent political allegiance is relevant (which it isn't).

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Let Giffords be there for the vote in her wheelchair and let her Republican fellows look her in the eyes and say no, we don't want to stop this from happening to you again.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 11:19 AM | Report abuse

@ashot: "Yep, and right after that there was an assassination attempt of a conservative politician, right?"

So, it's acceptable to use any level of violent imagery and language, just so long as nobody (in your personal assessment) has acted on that violent language and imagery . . . yet.

That seems to me an untenable position, if so.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Jesus Christ Kevin get a goddamned education, would you?

Google Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. This is basic stuff.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 11:21 AM | Report abuse

"... toughest gun control laws in the nation."

'Next' nothing Tom.

Gangs get their guns in states with lax gun laws. You know that.

You are defending the rights of the mentally insane and criminally negligent to buy guns, you DO know that too, right?

Well done. Way to keep the gangs and drug lords armed. Heckuva job idiot.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | January 10, 2011 11:22 AM | Report abuse

@wbgonne: "“The idea weirdly enough of controlling grammar, of somehow the government using grammar to control the people is an idea that exists on the radical right."

A quick quiz for my fellow right wing maniacs. Who here believes this? Troll? Scott? Bueller?

What completely and utter bs.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Kevin. So you don't believe all the things the mentally ill assassin did. And?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 11:22 AM | Report abuse

@cao: "Let Giffords be there for the vote in her wheelchair and let her Republican fellows look her in the eyes and say no, we don't want to stop this from happening to you again."

Really? You expect those heartless monsters to care about that?

Much better to deprive them of fresh water. Or get them straight to the closest gas chamber, and put us out of their misery. Don't you think?

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 11:22 AM | Report abuse

@claw-

Also, that is a false equivalency. Johnson's ad contained violent imagery and he was saying that a vote for Goldwater was tatamount to asking for nuclear war-over the line, IMO. But, he was not calling for violent actions against certain politicians or "Second Amendment Solutions" against our own politicians. It was simply to provoke fear of atomic weapons, Russia, and about the rhetoric of Goldwater in the middle of the Cold War.
Only a tortured reading of that ad and history of it would make it a call for violent attack on Goldwater *himself*.
Also interesting and maybe the most important part is the quote form Johnson, "we all must love one another or we must die". Which may be attributed to W.H. Auden. In effect LBJ was correct, in a way, but badly placed.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 10, 2011 11:22 AM | Report abuse

IMHO Sarah Palin is one of the most polarizing political leaders we have had in my lifetime. You either love her or hate her with an ever shrinking group left without opinion.

I personally believe she is bad for the nation. However I do not believe she is DIRECTLY responsible for this incident. I realize that in the recent aftermath many on the left have let their disgust with Palin's behavior cloud their judgment. But there is a reason for this reaction.

This shooting did not occur in a vacuum. The hate filled campaigns and rallies have already been well documented. Here in Clearwater Florida a man at a Palin rally
responded to one of her rants about, "he's not like us, he pals around with terrorists" by shouting out "Kill Him."
This was well documented, on tape, and just one of many kind of nasty incidents.

Is it really too much to ask of our conservative friends to ask their pols to respond when someone screams out "kill him". IF she didn't hear him she could have made a statement later when told of his actions!

Does Sarah Palin want to see Barrack Obama assassinated? I do NOT believe this. Did Sarah Palin want Cong. Giffords shot? IMHO Absolutely not. Can we agree that Sarah is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier and so probably honestly doesn't connect shouts of "Kill Him" rifle crosshairs, reload, all the violent metaphors with any connection to real violence.

Let me stipulate...I agree with my friends on the right that this was done by a random nut job. I am not holding Palin DIRECTLY responsible. But there have already been at least a half dozen incidents of violence where the violent rhetoric DID have an effect. Whether it was the wack job in Calif giving Beck credit for his planned attack on the ACLU and the Tides that resulted in a shootout with police...the gunman in Tennessee who credited his assault on the Unitarian Church to Fox commentator Bernard Goldberg.
The shooter of three Pittsburgh Police officers LOVED Glen Beck...The DC Holocaust shooter was a "birther"...a man threatening to kill Wa Sen Patty Murray was a huge Beck fan and the guy charged with death threats against Pelosi according to HIS family got all of his ideas from Fox News.

This is not about a competition for the right and left. It's about a competition for our nation's sanity. We are ALL real Americans!!! Ironically Rodney King's appeal in the early 90's make sense again...“ People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....They won the battle, but they haven't won the war....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out"

Not articulate but IMHO still profound!

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 11:23 AM | Report abuse

"Both responded to the allure of right wing rhetoric."

I think it's harder to make a link to the shooter because of the psychosis. It's too much of a straight line. Crazy man hears heated talk, starts shooting. I guess I'm saying that if this guy lived in a R congressional district the same thing would have happened. Not because he's some sort of militant lefty, but b/c he's completely delusional.

My father-in-law is bipolar. When he's off his meds, has actions just don't make sense. I could sit him down and let him watch hours of any of the "worst offenders", and he's response wouldn't be Obama is a socialist, but we need to drive 15 hours to Florida RIGHT NOW because that's were the best orange juice is and it's almost time for breakfast.

I think Greg is right -- we don't know what he believes. The scarier thing, in my opinion, is that I doubt the shooter really does either. I guess I see this guy more as a Hinckley than a McVeigh.

Posted by: NoVAHockey | January 10, 2011 11:24 AM | Report abuse

Of course language constrains thought. How could it be otherwise? Didn't anyone read the appendices to "1984?"

As for the conservative preoccupation with it, what the hell has all this grousing about "PC" and campus speech codes been all about? Loughner just carried it one step further, adding a control step to the stronger version of Sapir-Whorf (which is largely out of fashion, while the weaker version is pretty robust stuff).

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 11:25 AM | Report abuse

"What completely and utter bs."

It comes from a goon from the SPLC. What else would you expect but politicized nonsense.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 11:26 AM | Report abuse

@ashot: "Yep, and right after that there was an assassination attempt of a conservative politician, right?"

So, it's acceptable to use any level of violent imagery and language, just so long as nobody (in your personal assessment) has acted on that violent language and imagery . . . yet.

That seems to me an untenable position, if so.
----------------------------------------

No, that's certainly not my position. I think my earlier post detailed my position more thoroughly and the post you reference was a poor one, admittedly.

That said, to compare that political ad to the pervasive, violent undertones (overtones in some cases) of many of the comments by people on the Right (that I have seen and read) is simply inaccurate.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 10, 2011 11:28 AM | Report abuse

FLASHBACK August 2010: Michael Enright (Leftist interfaith film company volunteer) stabbed an anti-mosque Muslim NYC cabbie and faces trial this year.
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/08/25/left-the-muslim-cabbie-stabbing-was-right-wing-islamophobia-oh-wait-a-minute/

Leftists rushed to lynch the entire Right for that "progressive" hate crime, too.

Giffords shooter is one of your own. Own him, Leftists.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 11:33 AM | Report abuse

who by all available evidence was a liberal, to the extent political allegiance is relevant (which it isn't).

Posted by: quarterback1
----------------------------------------

What evidence shows that he's liberal other than the tweet of a "friend"? It's simply abusrd to say "all available evidence" point to him being liberal.

Do any of you other Conservative posters agree with QB's "all available evidence" nonesense?

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 10, 2011 11:34 AM | Report abuse

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.” [Obama at a Philadelphia fundraiser, June 2008]
http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/obama-knife-crime-tough.png

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 11:35 AM | Report abuse

@TominCo

For the past two days you've been postulating that the fact that the shooters connection to the Congresswoman goes back to 07 means the Palin couldn't have been responsible. I simply do not follow your logic.

Again I stipulate that Palin did not have a DIRECT straight line connection to this incident. I agree the guy was wack.

But the fact that he began thinking about his target in 07 does nothing to relieve culpability and be careful or you'll have one of my more extreme left wing friends claiming of your point...exactly...he knew all this time but did not act until this past two years (including all of the mind numbing divisiveness unleashed by Palin and the tea party) showed him it was PERMISSABLE. I don't believe this to be the case but it is POSSIBLE and so your point about WHEN he first became focused on his target is really irrelevant.

One aspect that has yet to be discussed in any depth is that the shooter was an Anti-Semite and his victim was Jewish. Is that a possible connection?>

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 11:38 AM | Report abuse

@cao: "hey battleground, at least Texas is in great shape .. the very crucible of conservative economics, and its fiscal condition a shining example of success."

Texas unemployment rate: 7.9%

DC Unemployment Rate: 9.6%

California Unemployment Rate: 12%

Michigan Unemployment Rate: 12%

Meh. Could be better, could be worse.

New York's unemployment rate is 8%, almost the same (just a point higher) than Texas. Apparently, the conclusion to be drawn is that being a crucible of liberal or conservative economic theory doesn't have as much impact on practical economic results as one might otherwise expect.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 11:40 AM | Report abuse

"That said, to compare that political ad to the pervasive, violent undertones (overtones in some cases) of many of the comments by people on the Right (that I have seen and read) is simply inaccurate."

That tells us pretty much everything about the reliability of your perceptions. You are talking about an ad that took images of Hayworth, edited them to look as sinister as possible (following sinister images of Abramoff), and literally superimposed crosshairs over him, just as if he were being seen through a rifle telescope.

Compared to that, you cite vague "violent undertones" of "many" on the right.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 11:41 AM | Report abuse

@ashotinthedark: Like Van Jones, the AZ shooter was also a Bush-hating 9-11 Troofer.

Disgraced “green jobs czar” Van Jones must be nodding in approval.

Own him, Lefists.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 11:42 AM | Report abuse

God save the nation from the Right Wing zealots.

Later.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 11:43 AM | Report abuse

Scott, you are probably correct that the young man was never adjudicated, but we do not know that, yet. His classmates at the CC were afraid of him and apparently a prof finally got him kicked out of class. Perhaps his behavior was never reported to authorities; perhaps it was and because of priorities [actual crime in the street] they did no follow-up.

I am willing to go with you on no prior adjudication presenting no bar, until and unless another due process mechanism is available.

My emphasis here is on the notion of reforming mental health to the point where people like this, when they have brushes with authority, are evaluated professionally and medicated if necessary. This focus on preventive mental heath care may prove unaffordable. The costs would have to be compared to the costs the untreated cause us to bear now - a difficult exercise, of course.

Better ID of mental health issues coupled with better licensing might still not have prevented this shooting. But it would be a good thing.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 10, 2011 11:54 AM | Report abuse

I think we've discussed Palin's crosshairs to death. No the shooter wasn't prompted by that map alone to target Giffords but Palin and her map are right at the center of that violent core in recent right wing rhetoric that amps people up with paranoia of government takeover and encourages violent response with firearms. She absolutely contributed to an atmosphere of incitement, and nobody on either side of the divide (and let's call it that, not a continuum) should shrink from acknowledging this, especially when she explicitly named Giffords and placed her in a rifle sight graphic, and most especially since she hastened to take it down, minutes after the shooting.

Uh-oh. Maybe if we take it down everyone will forget.

David Frum did a good job pointing out how once again Palin has let slip a chance to act like an adult.

You guys defending her really have your work cut out for you, I can only wonder why you pretend to see virtue is someone so plainly immature and brainless.

Noon for you, midnight for me. Strategize, righties, hate speech needs to get its respect back.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 11:56 AM | Report abuse

@Kevin_Willis "@wbgonne: "“The idea weirdly enough of controlling grammar, of somehow the government using grammar to control the people is an idea that exists on the radical right."

A quick quiz for my fellow right wing maniacs. Who here believes this? Troll? Scott? Bueller?

What completely and utter bs."

You can make an argument that this is part of what George Orwell was trying to communicate in 1984 through his discussion of Newspeak and thoughtcrime/crimethink.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Posted by: jnc4p | January 10, 2011 11:58 AM | Report abuse

in response to this:
========================
I don't think any profiling is needed to determine that you shouldn't be trusted with a weapon. Sounds like your grasp of how things work in the world is seriousy deficient.

Ever heard of things like "showing identification" and "databases?"

Wow. And I thought GHWB was out of it with checkout scanners.

Hey skip. The year is 2011.

+++++++

another commenter here has called for the banning of the author of the above. While I don't concur with that choice of reaction, I understand the motivation. The person who wrote this adds nothing to the discussion. There are already more than enough juvenile name callers spouting here.

further, the lack of reading skills clearly impairs this individual. Let me remediate. Here's what I'm asking: If the mental status of this person was never formally ajudicated, what would the databases actually show? I suspect that they would show NOTHING about the shooter.

Try reading just a bit more carefully. Then try thinking a little bit before spouting more snottiness pal. All you've proven thus far is that you have no more insight into life than any adolescent might claim

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 10, 2011 11:59 AM | Report abuse

RUK:

Yeah, the anti-semitic angle is out there and hasn't recieve much analysis.

Overall, I hope they release his browser and/or internet commenting history. That would shine a lot of light on his ideology and any more recent events that may have pushed him over the line.

Also, now seeing things about him throwing death threats to others around the county.

Posted by: TominColorado | January 10, 2011 12:00 PM | Report abuse

"Here in Clearwater Florida a man at a Palin rally
responded to one of her rants about, "he's not like us, he pals around with terrorists" by shouting out "Kill Him."
This was well documented, on tape, and just one of many kind of nasty incidents."

If you have proof, post it. At the time, the recordings circulated contained no such statement. Just like all the many recordings of the HCR protests failed to support (indeed contradicted) the lies about the protest.

" Can we agree that Sarah is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier and so probably honestly doesn't connect shouts of "Kill Him" rifle crosshairs, reload, all the violent metaphors with any connection to real violence.

Let me stipulate...I agree with my friends on the right that this was done by a random nut job. I am not holding Palin DIRECTLY responsible."

There's nothing to connect. Saying you don't hold her "directly" responsible is a meaningless qualifier. Glenn Reynolds nailed this dodge in his WSJ takedown.

"This is not about a competition for the right and left. It's about a competition for our nation's sanity. We are ALL real Americans!!! Ironically Rodney King's appeal in the early 90's make sense again...“ "

And yet this firestorm is entirely a consequence of your side's efforts to blame the other side for a psychotic's actions, and you are just piling on with more of the same. If it isn't a competition, why are you doing that? Why aren't you focused on your own side's long and deep history if vitriolic and violent rhetoric, and I don't mean in 1968, I mean over the entire past decade?

You earlier deflected questions about cases like the Fla school board shooter, the IRS plane attack, the Discovery Channel shooter. Clay Duke wasn't just a guy disgruntled at the school board. He left a message and an electronic trail that echoed all the same class warfare rhetoric in which your party (and you yourself) specialize. He cited websites like Media Matters. That was his parting aplogia -- his defense of his actions was the same class warfare message posted daily on this very blog. And when he felt personally frustrated enough, he acted on it.

If this isn't a competition, why do you deflect that and accuse the right for its rhetoric?

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 12:00 PM | Report abuse

[@ 11:38 AM on January 10, 2011 rukidding7 Posted: "...For the past two days...a DIRECT straight line...to...my more extreme left wing friends..."]
= = = = = =
Betcha they're all of that rukidding, and more...

...we suspect they, and you wouldn't know a straight line if it thumped you 'up side' the head, shellacked'n feathered y'all, and whispered sweet nothin's in your ear.

So keep on speaking moddderately about violent rhetoric, ruffling your feathers, looking behind every tree, IN EVERY BEDROOM, under every rock, scanning the skies for some way to blame everything, y'all are intimately, ultimately, at the least, peripherally responsible for. Then just look in the mirror and listen to your friend's and fiend's own squawking.

Y'all aren't to blame, but *amned sure bet'cha are absolutely, positively, without a doubt the most un-useful idiots that ever wasted the oxygen we all need a fresh breath of now.

...and somebody pleeease tell Dupnik, the Sheriff of Nuttingham, we don't appreciate his political analysis, stick to his specialty. We will worry about who, and where mecca is:>

Posted by: FreeNomore | January 10, 2011 12:00 PM | Report abuse

@Kevin: Texas budget deficit: $25 billion. Nothing left to cut, most niggardly unemployment insurance and education spending in the nation, dropout rate out of control, and absolutely no chance of raising taxes. Two years ago they were boasting they had a surplus (they were lying) and mocking blue states.

Guess that supply side stuff doesn't work. Shocker, that.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 10, 2011 12:01 PM | Report abuse

@ashot: "What evidence shows that he's liberal other than the tweet of a 'friend'? It's simply abusrd to say 'all available evidence' point to him being liberal."

All available evidence is that his belief systems (political and otherwise) were schizophrenic but there is enough there that if you wanted to spin this into a left wing hate crime (as liberals here are doing in the other direction), it's possible. Just one example from this very post: "What did Jared Loughner believe? He was a 9/11 truther who believed that global elites, hell bent on world domination, are in the process of creating a one-world currency."

There are as many right wing truthers as there are left wing birthers. That is: statistically none.

You want to think this is a result of conservatives being allowed to say things in public forums that you disagree with, that's up to you. There is no evidence that this fellow existed because of Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, National Review, or Sarah Palin. And the attacks on such people based on their use of quasi-violent (and fully bi-paristan) imagery, desperately trying to tie those people and their disagreeable opinions to this murderous whackjob, is, in my opinion, gratuitous.


"Do any of you other Conservative posters agree with QB's 'all available evidence' nonesense?"

My opinion is that all available evidence points to this guy being crazy, and his motivation and inspiration was his own personal mental defects and delusions, not the unfortunate existence of views contrary to prevailing liberal orthodoxy. I do think QBs comeback is a perfectly reasonable effort at counter-rhetoric, giving the tact being taken by most of the left-wing commentators.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 12:03 PM | Report abuse

[@ 11:38 AM on January 10, 2011 rukidding7 Posted: "...For the past two days...a DIRECT straight

line...to...my more extreme left wing friends..."]
= = = = = =
Betcha they're all of that rukidding, and more...

...we suspect they, and you wouldn't know a straight line if it thumped you 'up side' the head,

shellacked'n feathered y'all, and whispered sweet nothin's in your ear.

So keep on speaking moddderately about violent rhetoric, ruffling your feathers, looking behind

every tree, IN EVERY BEDROOM, under every rock, scanning the skies for some way to blame

everything, y'all are intimately, ultimately, at the least, peripherally responsible for. Then

just look in the mirror and listen to your friend's and fiend's own squawking.

Y'all aren't to blame, but *amned sure bet'cha are absolutely, positively, without a doubt the

most un-useful idiots that ever wasted the oxygen we all need a fresh breath of now.

...and somebody pleeease tell Dupnik, the Sheriff of Nuttingham, we don't appreciate his

political analysis, stick to his specialty. We will worry about who, and where mecca is:>

Posted by: FreeNomore | January 10, 2011 12:05 PM | Report abuse

"You guys defending her really have your work cut out for you, I can only wonder why you pretend to see virtue is someone so plainly immature and brainless."

No, actually it's quite easy at this point, since, as people with brains are aware, and as even the Sheriff of Nuttingham admitted, there isn't a shred of evidence the psycho was even aware of the "infamous" Palin map or anything else. Heck, he could as easily have been acting on the the overt hate message from Blue Boy.

Other than being completely lacking in any factual support and completely illogical, your point is right on.

Btw, you should, again, go figure out what an automatic versus a semi-automatic weapon is.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 12:07 PM | Report abuse

Jeebus, the guy hasn't even made a statement or testified yet, nor have any doctors released a report.

What if he names names? Do we believe him?

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 10, 2011 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Sorry about the double post...browser suffered a ad hack attack from WaPo third party back surfing...

Posted by: FreeNomore | January 10, 2011 12:10 PM | Report abuse

@ashotinthedark You get credit IMHO for the best link of the day. On a dreary Monday, with all of this in our news, I truly appreciated the bright ray of hope from of all places Egypt...please forgive me my Egyptian friends but honestly you have to admit the Middle East and Egypt in particular have not been spots we associate with peaceful resolutions to religious violence. Great link ashot...worth repeating

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/3365.aspx

@ChuckinDenton Thanks for straightening out Clawrence on his LBJ reference. Ironically his point makes our point...yeah and as you pointed out LBJ pulled it after one day...and that is ALL we are asking...just pull back.

@wbgonne "Conservative PC" Wow I had never thought of that before how hilarious as Conservatives would be the last people on earth to admit to their own PC. :-)

@Cao I think you joined this blog during my 2 month absence. I come back to discover that in addition to the usual bomb throwers from the right like RFR and Kaddaffi we now have one from the left with a clear difference...you are bright!
Sapir-Whorf? I Googled...thanks for the education.

When I returned and found somebody had gotten to Scott enough to prompt him to call for your banning...The only other person here able to get to Scott so deeply has been Bernie. I respect Scott and so the fact that you've fired him, Q.B., Kevin and the others up so dramatically impresses me.

I conclude by saying I agree with you substantially Cao but not on style. MOST of what you say is pretty accurate if not delicate...and I must add if you truly called for the gassing of all conservatives I'm not with you, but just as I read Scott and Q.B. and some other Conservatives I respect...I'll continue enjoying your posts...although I do join my friends on the right and encourage to lose anymore violent metaphors.

@Q.B. Brother don't make me give you that Kevin speech! Remember last year when Kevin chided me...correctly I might add...for my hyperbole...you better be careful Q.B. you're skirting that thin line and I see our hypebole policeman is on duty today. Perhaps snowed in in Memphis.

@Kevin Sorry to hear about your consolidation. Pinellas County is all ONE huge school sytem. Bigger is not always better and in fact can sometimes suck.
You are the educator Kevin and know more than me on the subject, but as a lay person I believe the farther the focus switches from individual community schools into huge mega district sytems, the worse the quality of education.
Good luck to you and Memphis Kevin.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 12:15 PM | Report abuse

"My opinion is that all available evidence points to this guy being crazy, and his motivation and inspiration was his own personal mental defects and delusions, not the unfortunate existence of views contrary to prevailing liberal orthodoxy. I do think QBs comeback is a perfectly reasonable effort at counter-rhetoric, giving the tact being taken by most of the left-wing commentators."

That's pretty much my own position. I do think the "available" evidence is that he leaned left at least before the psychotic break. What evidence? What his friend said. The fact that he apparently had some attraction to Giffords and a letter from her thanking him for attending her event in 2007.

That's not a lot, but it's more than there is suggesting he leaned right, which is none. There is as much evidence suggesting he was motivated by Palin as tehre is suggeting he was motivated by Dkos.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 12:19 PM | Report abuse

"My opinion is that all available evidence points to this guy being crazy, and his motivation and inspiration was his own personal mental defects and delusions, not the unfortunate existence of views contrary to prevailing liberal orthodoxy. I do think QBs comeback is a perfectly reasonable effort at counter-rhetoric, giving the tact being taken by most of the left-wing commentators."

What a load of horsesh*t.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 12:22 PM | Report abuse

@wbgonne: "What a load of horsesh*t."

I disagree. I think it was a load of awesome. Coated with a fine dusting of incomparable brilliance.

Not that your retort wasn't, um, a good solid effort. In it's own way.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 12:26 PM | Report abuse

@ruk: "Kevin Sorry to hear about your consolidation. Pinellas County is all ONE huge school sytem. Bigger is not always better and in fact can sometimes suck."

Well, it sure won't be, here. It will be a decade long mess. And the politicians are out, saying it'll be easy-peasy, and everything will be totally awesome, and making a huge mess out of everything is being done "for the children" and so on. Looks like it's going to happen, but it's going to be . . . a mess.

And meetings. Lots and lots of meetings.

So, when are you going to at least try out Troll Hunter? Some of the best features were added with you in mind. What browser do you use?

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 12:28 PM | Report abuse

Kevin:

You are living far in the past. There has been no "liberal orthodoxy" that matters in this country for 40 years. You Conservatives have been in complete control for four decades. Conservatism is the orthodoxy; liberalism in under siege. You defense of Conservatism as a beleaguered philosophy is laughable. Fox News IS the Mainstream Media. Rush Limbaugh IS the Mainstream Media. Glenn Beck IS the Mainstream Media. All the Right Wing does these days is play the victim when they are really the bully.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 12:29 PM | Report abuse

ruk,

"When I returned and found somebody had gotten to Scott enough to prompt him to call for your banning...The only other person here able to get to Scott so deeply has been Bernie. I respect Scott and so the fact that you've fired him, Q.B., Kevin and the others up so dramatically impresses me."

To be clear, I have not called for Colonel Kurtz's banning. Nor do I think Scott has. I've explicitly stated to the contrary (although I have to say the past 48 have made me wonder).

What I have done is begun repeating the question to Greg why he has welcomed CK rather than banning him. You would have to review a bunch of threads while you were gone to see why. But to summarize, your new pal CK advocates mass killing of, among other categories of nonpersons (he explicitly denies our humanity) all conservatives, bankers, and other capitalist classes.

I am not exaggerating that, I promise you. I wish I were. You will occasionally see him say he wasn't serious, but when you read his repeated advocacy there is little doubt he is. He typically ends up his "defense" of his mass murder fantasies by saying he wouldn't object to mass murder of the undesirables. Big of him.

That's just one area of his depravity. Next to him, you are the very soul of humanity, mercy, and right-wing extremism. ; )

Even tao treats him accordingly, which should tell you something. (Indeed, tao's denunciation of him a couple of weeks ago is one of the great internet beat downs ever.)

But for the record, I haven't called for banning. I just want to Greg to explain himself, having banned conservatives who didn't remotely match Colonel Kurtz's violations of the "rules."

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 12:30 PM | Report abuse

"You Conservatives have been in complete control for four decades."

You are a loon. Nuff said.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 12:33 PM | Report abuse

@wbgonne: "You are living far in the past. There has been no "liberal orthodoxy" that matters in this country for 40 years"

I'm not sure that I said it matters. In fact, I think the reaction to this recent tragedy is, practically, the continued self-marginalization of liberal orthodoxy.

"You Conservatives have been in complete control for four decades."

Well, not me, nor my favorite conservatives, but I take your point.

"You defense of Conservatism as a beleaguered philosophy is laughable."

Any defense is just within the context of this discussion, here. I'm not making any pronouncements of the general state of conservatism, which I think is pretty robust in this country, overall, with caveats.

"All the Right Wing does these days is play the victim when they are really the bully."

Perhaps. I don't consider myself a victim, and, I hope, I'm not a bully.

On the other hand, I have it on good authority that QB bears an uncanny resemblance to Nelson Muntz, and makes his living primarily on pilfered lunch monies.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 12:34 PM | Report abuse

[rukidding7 snarked: "the usual bomb throwers from the right like... Kaddaffi "]

If it is "bomb" throwing to cite EVIDENCE of Leftist bomb throwers, then your wounded ego is entirely self-inflicted.

What exactly have Taxed Enough Already (TEA)grannies "thrown"? Leftists can't cite a shred of evidence to support their orchestrated demonization campaign.

“Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” [Matthew 23:24]

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 10, 2011 12:35 PM | Report abuse

"I think the reaction to this recent tragedy is, practically, the continued self-marginalization of liberal orthodoxy."

What a bizarre statement. You sure you don't subscribe to that Government Mind Control stuff?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 12:37 PM | Report abuse

@cao: "Guess that supply side stuff doesn't work. Shocker, that."

Well, Marx always did say that capitalism is doomed to collapse. Soon we'll get to the only functional form of political economy: the command economy. All companies and markets will be nationalized, and utopia will finally be upon us. And not a moment too soon.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 12:40 PM | Report abuse

@wbgonne: "What a bizarre statement. You sure you don't subscribe to that Government Mind Control stuff?"

Speaking of bizarre statements. I would assume you think that the marginalization of the left (which, I'm assuming, you agree is the case, as you yourself state there is no meaningful liberal orthodoxy that matters at this point) is a largely outside phenomenon.

I think it's a largely inside phenomenon, and has a lot to do with the nature of the defenses of liberal orthodoxy mounted, the standard bearers of liberal orthodoxy in this country, and the reactions to events like 9/11, Oklahoma City, this recent tragedy, the election of Ronald Reagan, and so on.

And, no, having the temerity to disagree with you does not mean that I believe in Government Mind Control, a plot for a One World Currency, that everybody is having RFID chips implanted in their necks, or in leprechauns. Just to be clear.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 12:46 PM | Report abuse

"I would assume you think that the marginalization of the left (which, I'm assuming, you agree is the case, as you yourself state there is no meaningful liberal orthodoxy that matters at this point) is a largely outside phenomenon."

You would be wrong. By the 1970s Doctrinaire liberalism (the "orthodoxy" you allude to) was a spent movement, just as Conservatism is today. That's why Conservatism ascended.

"has a lot to do with the nature of the defenses of liberal orthodoxy mounted"

Like?

"the standard bearers of liberal orthodoxy in this country"

Such as?

"and the reactions to events like 9/11, Oklahoma City, this recent tragedy, the election of Ronald Reagan, and so on."

What in the world does that mean?

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 12:54 PM | Report abuse

Kevin-
"You want to think this is a result of conservatives being allowed to say things in public forums that you disagree with, that's up to you. There is no evidence that this fellow existed because of Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, National Review, or Sarah Palin. And the attacks on such people based on their use of quasi-violent (and fully bi-paristan) imagery, desperately trying to tie those people and their disagreeable opinions to this murderous whackjob, is, in my opinion, gratuitous."

Actually, I said we shouldn't try to tie it because as seen above, it leads to a focus on assigning blame rather than a discussion of the use of violent rhetoric.

My comments about the language by those on the Right is that if those comments aren't made then they don't have to be removed from websites or defended as not having a causal relationship. Admittedly above I say that "perhaps" Palin's comment aren't related. I should say, more likely than not they aren't related.

I have also stated I think that some of the comparisons you and other Conservative posters are making here between comments by Rahm or President Obama and the Angle comment in particular, are false equivalencies.

"All available evidence is that his belief systems (political and otherwise) were schizophrenic but there is enough there that if you wanted to spin this into a left wing hate crime (as liberals here are doing in the other direction), it's possible."

Maybe I'm missing it, but have Liberal posters said "all available evidence" points to the guy being a Conservative? Because that's what QB said and while choosing to criticize me instead of QB, it appears that you disagree with QB and agree with me.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 10, 2011 12:56 PM | Report abuse

"On the other hand, I have it on good authority that QB bears an uncanny resemblance to Nelson Muntz, and makes his living primarily on pilfered lunch monies."

The proliferation of subsidized school lunch programs has, however, caused me to have to diversify into stealing Girl Scout cookie money and Little League fundraiser proceeds.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 1:07 PM | Report abuse

@ashot: "I have also stated I think that some of the comparisons you and other Conservative posters are making here between comments by Rahm or President Obama and the Angle comment in particular, are false equivalencies."

Then it seems to me like it's a sliding scale. In any case, that's going to be the impression of the people who are being pointed at as the main villains of the piece, and no progress is going to be made.

To be clear, I'm all for toning down the rhetoric, but it's a much easier position to champion than it is to make any progress on. One reason being we will fundamentally disagree on the basics. You will think comparing x to y is a false equivalency. I will think it is a true equivalency. This fellow to the right of me will agree that it is a false equivalency, but will think that you have to backwards, and that the Obama and Rahm statements are the real incitements to violence while his right-wing brethren are merely engaged in barn-burning rhetoric.

"Maybe I'm missing it, but have Liberal posters said 'all available evidence' points to the guy being a Conservative?"

I'm pretty sure that's Cao's position. I didn't think he was alone, but I may be wrong. If so, fair point.

"Because that's what QB said and while choosing to criticize me instead of QB, it appears that you disagree with QB and agree with me."

Can't I do both? Nobody puts Baby in the corner!

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 1:07 PM | Report abuse

"You would be wrong. By the 1970s Doctrinaire liberalism (the "orthodoxy" you allude to) was a spent movement, just as Conservatism is today. That's why Conservatism ascended."

wbgonne's assertions make complete sense if (and only if) we accept his premises that Nixon, Carter, Ted Kennedy, Tip O'Neil, Jim Wright, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, Ruth Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Elena Kagan, Sonia Sotamayor, Dan Rather, Katie Couric, Peter Jennings, the NYT, the WaPo and innumerable others are arch-conservative people and institutions.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 1:14 PM | Report abuse

ashotinthedark, you say (at 12:56 PM) "more likely than not [Palin's comments] are not related" but (at 10:57 PM) you said her cross-hairs map "make violence like this less likely" which I assumed at the time you meant MORE likely. Perhaps, double negatives are too difficult for you?

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 1:18 PM | Report abuse

@qb: "wbgonne's assertions make complete sense if (and only if) we accept his premises that Nixon, Carter, Ted Kennedy, Tip O'Neil, Jim Wright, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, Ruth Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Elena Kagan, Sonia Sotamayor, Dan Rather, Katie Couric, Peter Jennings, the NYT, the WaPo and innumerable others are arch-conservative people and institutions."

The WaPo allows conservatives to write in their paper and write editorials--for not occluding them completely, they are considered an arch conservative publication.

The most liberal of all the folks you mentioned? I mean, other than Ruth Ginsburg?

Richard M. Nixon. The worst Republican in history. And one of our worst presidents.

And that's without counting Watergate.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 1:22 PM | Report abuse

"Because that's what QB said and while choosing to criticize me instead of QB, it appears that you disagree with QB and agree with me."

Can't I do both? Nobody puts Baby in the corner!"

You can, I just wanted to point out that your post only points out your disagreements with me, a Liberal who has made no claim that all evidence points one way, rather than QB's ridiculous comment.
-------------------------------------
Claw- Perhaps, double negatives are too difficult for you?

Perhaps extrapolating grammatical errors or typos to be a reflection of an individual's broader intellect says more about your own intelligence than the error says about mine.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 10, 2011 1:32 PM | Report abuse

Well, at least Mr. Loughner seemed to have it out for the grammar police ; )

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 1:22 PM | Report abuse

Let me know when you stop talking nonsense.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 10, 2011 1:38 PM | Report abuse

Does anyone know if that last name is pronounced "LONER"?

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 1:39 PM | Report abuse

@wbgonne: "Let me know when you stop talking nonsense."

No, you'll have to figure it out yourself.

You're a smart guy. You can do it.

@clawrence: "Does anyone know if that last name is pronounced 'LONER'?"

Don't you mean "Loner Who Often Wore Black"? I remember back around the time of the West Memphis Three where just being young and wearing black marked you as a potential serial murderer.

"He didn't talk much. I shoulda called the police about that."

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 10, 2011 1:51 PM | Report abuse

"You can, I just wanted to point out that your post only points out your disagreements with me, a Liberal who has made no claim that all evidence points one way, rather than QB's ridiculous comment."

It isn't ridiculous at all. Unless you aren't paying careful attention.

There is a bit of evidence he was a liberal pre-psychosis. There is none he was a conservative.

Nevertheless, the left leaped to call him a right-winger, and I've simply pointed out that all available evidence contradicts that claim. Sorry you find that inconvenient. It's the left playing the blame game. I'm just pointing out the left's error and dishonesty. The dude is psychotic. And you are contributing to the feeding frenzy yourself by lending legitimacy to the notion that conservative rhetoric might, just might, be involved.

You're another whome Glenn Reynolds nailed with his column.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 1:56 PM | Report abuse

Crossfire? Certainly an issue. But is that worse than just letter him continue to execute people? I doubt it.

If I had been there, I'd have wished someone else had a gun. Seems obvious to me.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 10, 2011 10:08 AM | Report abuse

---

They didn't just letter [sic] him continue to execute people. He never got a second round off. Now, let's take your hypothetical armed citizen. According to an eyewitness, the shooting took about 10 - 12 seconds. So, HAC needs to realize what's happening, find the shooter while taking cover, draw and aim in less than 10 seconds. I doubt a member of the A team could pull off that. So, HAC is now up and firing while people are tackling the shooter. And you find that comforting?

And thus we get to the basic fallacy of conceal and carry laws. Mass shootings like this happen with sad regularity. I'm still waiting for a HAC to appear. It's a fantasy out of 24 (a show I thoroughly enjoyed BTW). Heck, Ft. Hood took place on a military base and a HAC didn't take him down.

Keep believing in the tooth fairy. I won't.

BTW - Notice how battleground disappeared when confronted with facts?

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 10, 2011 2:03 PM | Report abuse

No, Kevin, I was asking if "Loughner" (today's entire topic) is pronounced "LONER."

I also wonder if rukidding7 (or anyone else) blames Jodie Foster for "indirectly" causing John Hinckley to shoot Ronald Reagan, et al.?

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 2:10 PM | Report abuse

BB

From my earlier post about my Army experience you can see that I agree with you.

Here is another great exercise if you have the opportunity. In St. Petersburg FL and I suspect many other communities we have a police/citizen program that takes in a dozen people from different walks of life and backgrounds. They get to go through a couple of seminars about police work but the highlight is going into the "virtual" shooting range. This is where the police train on real situations. You are faced with life sized video and it becomes necessary to make a decision...keep it holstered or draw and shoot to defend yourself. Every class person ended up killing innocent people (virtually thank goodness) as well as being shot themselves.

The police has horribly difficult jobs as do the military and again IMHO I think it actually demeans their years of training and effort to believe that any amateur can do their job at it's most critically demanding time...the use of live firearms.

BTW @Q.B. I certainly accept your point about SOME gun advocates being very well trained indeed but statistics show the vast majority are not.

Specifically Arizona requires a ludicrous amount of training in terms of preparing a person to actually draw a weapon and defend oneself in a shooting situation.
Arizona's concealed carry permit law, which allows people to carry a concealed firearm after eight hours of safety and legal training and marksmanship qualification is about average and completely inadequate to prepare one for gunfire with humans.

Worse of course are the states like Indiana. Nearly one in 15 Indiana adults have gun permits, which they can get once they turn 18 -- and without going through any training. Do we suppose some of the weapons that invade Chicago despite tough gun laws actually come from neighboring Indiana. Duh ya think?

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 2:32 PM | Report abuse

@clawrence

"I also wonder if rukidding7 (or anyone else) blames Jodie Foster for "indirectly" causing John Hinckley to shoot Ronald Reagan, et al.?"

Actually I don't blame Foster but there are plenty of folks, many of them very conservative, who have long stated that the violence portrayed by Hollywood has a deleterious effect on society producing stuff like...."John Hinckley" among other
nuts like Chapman and the others.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Good to know.

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 10, 2011 3:01 PM | Report abuse

ruk:

"somebody had gotten to Scott enough to prompt him to call for your banning..."

I didn't call for cao's banning. I called on Greg to put his money where his mouth is and call cao out for his intemperate rhetoric. Not surprisingly, he won't.

Also, you should know that Bernie no longer responds to me, and has allegedly put me on his trollhunter list (although he did say "Screw you" to me not long ago so he may have taken me off recently/temporarily). Anyone it's questionable exactly who "got" to who.

BTW....hello.

Posted by: ScottC3 | January 10, 2011 3:31 PM | Report abuse

@Scott Please forgive my misconception.
Looking back you are correct and I am mistaken indeed you did not call for his banning.

Hello to you as well Scott. I know this won't please you but I hope you'll take this as a compliment....you are my favorite poster on the right...I view you as the JennofArk for the right....both of you deliver erudite, tight responses largely devoid of hyperbole.

As someone in the past who confesses to my own hyperbolic rants I admire those who can avoid hyperbole and so kudo's to you Scott.

Of course I still disagree with most of your positions. LMAO :-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 10, 2011 4:50 PM | Report abuse

As Briggie seems to have abandoned the field, I'll note that the Comptroller's report has Texas with a $27 BILLION deficit for the upcoming biannual budget. So much for the canard that only liberal states have fiscal problems.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | January 10, 2011 4:51 PM | Report abuse

only a complete moron like KaddafiDelI used to think that Hitler could be further to the right, but apparently KaddafiDelendaEst is further still.

Posted by: thomasmc1957 | January 11, 2011 4:47 PM | Report abuse

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