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Posted at 8:30 AM ET, 01/21/2011

The Morning Plum

By Greg Sargent

* Obama vulnerable on jobs and the economy: Yes, Obama is in the midst of a rebound, particularly among independents, but two new polls out this morning offer a sobering reminder of the ground he needs to make up on the economy and job creation, both of which -- all his high personal ratings aside -- will largely decide whether Obama will enjoy a second term.

The new Associated Press poll finds that more than half of overall Americans disapprove of his handling of the economy. And that's echoed in the new New York Times/CBS poll, which finds majorities disapprove of him on the economy (52 percent) and on job creation (54 percent).

* Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs: The President will unveil a new panel today to replace the old anodyne-sounding Economic Recovery Advisory Board, and the new product will have a name far more targeted towards the central problem: The President's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness.

* High unemployment as the new normal? Jim Tankersley argues that we won't bring down unemployment unless we solve the mystery of the 15 million jobs that were supposed to be created but weren't, something that could have important ramifications for 2012.

* Despite tensions, left closing rank behind Obama? Howard Dean urges progressives to keep in mind that at bottom Obama is one of them, and asks them to keep their focus on beating Republicans.

* And: With Obama set to meet with House Dems today to sooth raw feelings over the tax cut deal, key liberal Dems say they're behind the President 100 percent.

* Strong opposition to entitlement cuts: Also interesting from the Times/CBS poll: Americans are far more supportive of cuts to the military to reduce spending (55 percent) than of cuts to Medicare (21 percent) or Social Security (15 percent).

* Also: Big majorities prefer raising Social Security and Medicare taxes (nearly two thirds in both cases) over making cuts to benefits.

* Left gears up for entitlement fight: The Progressive Change Campaign Committee is going up with a new ad in D.C. and South Carolina hammering Senator Lindsey Graham for proposing Social Security cuts -- an effort to show the President that if he stands firm against cuts, the left will have his back.

* Republicans waging war on neutrality? Ezra Klein has been doing nice work on the ongoing Republican effort to undermine the Congressional Budget Office, which he describes as an effort to "discredit the last truly neutral, truly respected scorekeeper in Washington." This is an important story.

* Almost nobody thinks they've benefitted from health law: A fascinating number from the aforementioned NYT/CBS poll: Only 14 percent say they've personally benefitted from the Affordable Care Act. This strongly supports the argument that one of the key missteps by Dems was the slow phase-in of key provisions.

* Trouble in Tea Party paradise: House GOP rank-and-filers don't want John Boehner to go all weak-kneed on that promise to cut $100 billion in spending. How the GOP leadership handles Tea Party disappointment when reality hits will be a major storyline this year.

* Revelation of the day: House Dems realize they should have tried harder in 2010 to sell Obama's number one domestic accomplishment as an achievement. And they vow to do better.

* Giffords's remarkable recovery: She has now gone outside to do physical therapy, less than two weeks after she was shot at close range in the brain.

* Debunking the myth of the hero gunslinger: Good read from Timothy Egan skewering the idea that gun-packing Charles Bronsons in Congress, the schools, and the workplace will somehow make us safer from crazed killers.

* Palin-Bachmann 2012! Dare to dream.

* And can Mike Pence save the GOP from Sarah Palin? Conservatives who have figured out that nominating Palin would be a disaster are coalescing behind Mike Pence as the preferred alternative, which perhaps says more about the state of the GOP field than anything else.

What else is happening?

By Greg Sargent  | January 21, 2011; 8:30 AM ET
Categories:  House GOPers, Tea Party, economy  
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Comments

What else?

Howard Dean is wrong. Here is the link for a new online organization for the Left to act independently of the Democratic Party:

Home page blurb:

"If you want 10 more years of war raise your hand. How about privatized Social Security, any takers? Supervillain corporations? Bought and paid for politics? A media that glosses over the real costs of war? Raise your hand if you want all that. Hands still down? Then you're in the right place. Welcome.

Talk long enough and you'll find most Americans are pretty much the same. We want a fair country, not one ruled by corporations; enough jobs; opportunities for young people, and security for old ones. We want to fight only when necessary, and if it's a mistake, we want it to stop. That's what most of us voted for in 2008. But elections aren't enough. Now we know that it's gonna take action, down at the grassroots level, independent from political party leadership, to solve our biggest problems. It's gonna take roots action.

It’s time to get to the heart of things in America. To reconnect with our roots, to who we really are. People who believe in justice and peace. People who want democracy. People who demand a truly civil society, where violence (or the threat of it) is never part of the equation. Raise your—HEY! There are a lot of us!"

Posted by: wbgonne | January 21, 2011 8:52 AM | Report abuse

oops

http://www.rootsaction.org/index.php

Posted by: wbgonne | January 21, 2011 8:53 AM | Report abuse

Even better than nominating Palin, and more probable: she does a third party run. She's certainly narcissistic enough, and her adoring fans would come 100% from Respooblican voters.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 21, 2011 8:54 AM | Report abuse

Americans are far more supportive of cuts to the military to reduce spending (55 percent) than of cuts to Medicare (21 percent) or Social Security (15 percent).

==

This is major, and it doesn't sound very "center right" at all.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 21, 2011 8:56 AM | Report abuse

Mike Pence speaks word salad as well as Palin does.

Posted by: suekzoo1 | January 21, 2011 8:56 AM | Report abuse

Thanks wbgonne

I'm going to check it out. Have you read the Bill Black piece yet?

http://my.firedoglake.com/williamblack/2011/01/20/obama-embraces-the-economic-philosophy-that-has-completely-failed/

Posted by: lmsinca | January 21, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

QB writes:

There is a more general sense in which government redefinition of marriage affects everyone, and that is that it redefines the institution to which all married persons belong, for them and the rest of society. This is a very real effect and one that a party that claims the exclusive capacity for nuance and complexity ought to be able to comprehend. For example, children of traditional marriages -- well, there are no actual children of "gay marriages," are there? -- are indoctrinated to accept that their parents' relationship and union is no different from a gay one.


___________________


This is an excellent way to write this point.

This issue affects other families. The proponents are pretending that other people are not affected.

The issue goes much deeper than adults. The proponents of gay marriage seek to change the way SCHOOLS teach young children - 7 and 8 year old children about the gay agenda.

One the most fundamental level, the school system in the US is not supposed to teach social policy and not suppose to be indocrinating our children into their way of thinking. On this issue, the schools, are practicing politics.

This is an element of deception here as well. In many of the cases, adminitrators seek to introduce these policies WITHOUT telling anyone. Obviously, they fear a backlash. However, the notifications to the community are limited.


EVEN WORSE, the people seeking to get these programs into the schools DO NOT want any votes taken. Liberals have taken on distinct anti-democratic OPERATIONAL TACTICS.

Avoid telling anyone, avoid taking a vote. See if you can get the program in for a few years without many complaints. Ignore all complaints - then tell people it is a fait accompli.


The very existence of these TACTICS tells everyone that the liberals do not believe in democracy - they are seeking to IMPOSE THEIR AGENDA without going through the normal processes of democracy.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:02 AM | Report abuse

Just read it, Ims. Gee, tax cuts and deregulation don't work. Who knew? I'm not back but I just wanted to pass along that RootsAction link for those like me who are convinced that without independent action the U.S. Left is doomed to irrelevance.

Posted by: wbgonne | January 21, 2011 9:06 AM | Report abuse

I didn't see this. Chris Matthews expresses his love for Josh...

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/01/chris-matthews-video-hardball.php#more?ref=fpblg

Posted by: bernielatham | January 21, 2011 9:08 AM | Report abuse

There are no children of gay marriages?

Wow.

If marriage is for the promotion of reproduction you'd better start requiring proof of fertility before granting licenses.

What's so great about bearing children in a world of 7+ billion heading into catastrophic instability? Seems irresponsible.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 21, 2011 9:09 AM | Report abuse

(I'm hoping that someone, someday, will replace the anodyne-sounding term anodyne)

Posted by: bernielatham | January 21, 2011 9:10 AM | Report abuse

I reposted the above comment to make a point

Add those liberal Operational Tactics to the way Obama and the liberals jammed health care through Congress last year - by reconciliation and not really negotiating through the normal Committee process and the usual process of Committees, including both parties, working out differences in bills between the House.


Sorry, but the liberals DO NOT WANT DEBATE, THEY DO NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW WHAT IS IN THE BILLS.

Obama held back on the details of his health care plan, constantly told people "this is not the final bill", and tried to DODGE ALL DISCUSSION ON THE DETAILS.

Then they dumped a 2,000 page bill on the internet in the middle of the night and called a vote as soon as they could.


THIS IS NOT DEMOCRACY. This is what third-world dictators do.

The American People are SICK of the way the liberals put the GAY AGENDA INTO SCHOOLS.

The American People are SICK of the way the liberals jammed through the health care bill.

Throw in a few FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM -

And try to get liberal columnist to scream RACISM in every paper of the country, including THE RACISTS COLBERT KING AND EUGENE ROBINSON, who only make such charges again WHITE PEOPLE.

You never heard Colbert King or Eugene Robinson speak in such terms about Rev. Wright, where the evidence was clear and abundant.


_________________________

The POINT is the Operational TACTICS of Obama and the liberals have NOT BEEN CIVIL.


In fact, Obama and the liberals have been PROVOKING PEOPLE.


"What is government when words have no meaning"


What is a smear campaign when the charges are false??

What is a President when all his campaign themes are DECEPTIONS???


What are the liberals when they trample DEMOCRACY ???

I can see the liberals have already ceased to be CIVIL - all that was a bunch of crap just to get them out of their own SMEAR CAMPAIGN.

The American People are watching.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:12 AM | Report abuse

"Jim Tankersley argues that we won't bring down unemployment unless we solve the mystery of the 15 million jobs that were supposed to be created but weren't"

Or the mystery of what happened to all the unicorns.

While the government certainly can help or hurt job creation, the economy is as complex as a weather system, and about as hard to control. Not to be uncivil, but the people who think there's some sort of smarter-than-everybody policy or particular set of buttons that can be pressed in just the right order to create 15 million jobs have take up permanent residence up their own posteriors.

Or, I'll solve the mystery: you can't wave a wand and make it happen. It's not how you waved the wand, or who waved the wand, it's that it cannot be done. The economy and job market can be herded, perhaps, a somewhat. But specific (and very high) targets like creating 15 million jobs? Well, if it's a mystery why that hasn't happened, we need to get to work on the mystery of why I haven't won the lottery yet.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 21, 2011 9:15 AM | Report abuse

Hahaha magic wand.

Hahahaha market forces.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 21, 2011 9:18 AM | Report abuse

"both of which -- all his high personal ratings aside -- will largely decide whether Obama will enjoy a second term."

Actually, based on historical trends, whether or not he's challenged from the left by a 3rd party or the the Democratic primary will decide whether or not Obama will enjoy a second term. A split vote could let a republican challenger defeat a reasonably popular incumbent president, or a very damaging primary that left half-the-base bitter and disaffected.

Otherwise, Obama is, and remains, tough to beat, even if the Democrats don't figure out the Mystery of the Missing Million Jobs. Which was a great episode of Scooby Doo, btw.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 21, 2011 9:18 AM | Report abuse

Of course Obama is vulnerable on the economy. We have a 9.4% unemployment rate.

We have been above 9% for 20 months. The "U" rate probably close to 20%.

In order to get re-elected Obama knows he has to make movement on jobs. He knows that unemployment rate better be coming down by November 2102 or he won't get re-elected.

That's why he is making these "pro-business" moves because he knows that he can't get another dime out of Congress to juice economy so he has to get business off their asses and invest that $2 trillion that they are sitting on back into the U.S. economy.

Watch Obama's SOTU address. We should all play a drinking game in which we drink every time Obama said the words "jobs" and "growth". We will all have one hell of a hangover

Posted by: maritza1 | January 21, 2011 9:19 AM | Report abuse

@wbgonne Thanks for that link! I've bookmarked it and plan to contribute.

Re...Amateurs who are armed making us any safer. The right wing are truly, and remarkably ignorant about this.

The Tuscon story shows the big lie. The lone gunman gets off 31....31 shots in a matter of less than 30 seconds. Again unless you want us running around like the Wild West with pistol in holsters..safety off..and a round in the chamber...30 seconds is just too little time...

But that's hypothetical let's look at REALITY. Several bystanders were armed.
Kudos to Mr. Zamudio who is a 2nd Amendment supporter...he was armed..he got his wakeup call..got the beejeesus scared out of him because he almost shot an INNOCENT man, and was so shaken up he told the truth about his frightening experience.

Another armed citizen helped wrestle the man to the ground. He almost drew his weapon but he was incredibly smart for an average citizen...he realized if he drew his weapon there would be no way for any authorities to realize HE wasn't the original shooter.

If any of you gun nuts who think an armed public makes us safer (I own weapons but I don't wave them in public and use them only in appropriate places...firing ranges for me...I don't hunt...but I obviously have no problem with that "appropriate" use..ergo I'm not a freaking nut) You need to realize the stupidity of your thoughts...
Simply find a way to get into one of the many law enforcement agencies who sometimes open their training room to civilians for demonstration and education purposes.

It's the same thing law enforcement officers use to train. You stand in a room with a "fake" Glock that fires a laser beam when you pull the trigger. In front of you a dozen or so feet away..a screen which is capable of playing videos of situations with life size people in front of you. They roll tape and you are expected to react properly. Situations included routine traffic stops with people getting out of their cars...visiting a home at night that has called in a burglary report....you see other human beings in this situation and must make the right decision. When you fire your weapon a red dot appears on the screen to show where your rounds actually hit.

In this exercise everybody in the room killed at least two innocent people and were shot by the bad guys themselves at times for not reacting in time.

Do it and you will realize several things.
It's incredibly difficult even when you're playing with lasers and not live ammo..your hands get sweaty..your pulse quickens..you also realize that people running around armed are AMATEURS...the vast majority don't know WTF they're doing!
And lastly what I got from the experience was a huge respect for our Law Enforcement people. What a hard job!!! And to think of the relatives who have a husband or wife facing this everyday. Hats off to all of our fine L.E. people. You are awesome.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 21, 2011 9:23 AM | Report abuse

"Republicans waging war on neutrality? Ezra Klein has been doing nice work on the ongoing Republican effort to undermine the Congressional Budget Office, which he describes as an effort to "discredit the last truly neutral, truly respected scorekeeper in Washington." This is an important story."

It's a VERY important story, in the specific and in the larger pattern.

As with media, science, economics, etc, the attempt here is to create an epistemological framework which is based on partisan/ideological identification and where "legitimate authority" is ascertained not by education nor by expertise/familiarity nor by prior record nor by separation from personal interest nor by any other factor than conservative or liberal identification or by whether an opinion voiced or conclusion drawn matches or does not match the reigning partisan narrative.

Posted by: bernielatham | January 21, 2011 9:25 AM | Report abuse

wbgonne writes:


"the US Left is doomed to irrelevance."


_


The left is irrelevant, their policies are bankrupt - they have run up a $1.3 Trillion dollar deficit.

Blue States - Illinois, New York California are on the verge of severe financial problems

AND the liberal unions want more.....


YOU have all the democrats REGISTER and pay these bills ... let ALL the Republicans off the hook.


IF the liberals WANT to spend money, start a non-profit, get the LIBERALS to give money in, and DISTRIBUTE YOUR OWN MONEY.


The American People are telling the liberals to "get lost." NOW.


WHAT is wrong with you people ???

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:27 AM | Report abuse

ruk: ""In this exercise everybody in the room killed at least two innocent people"" Well, "hit," maybe. Can't really kill a simulation.

Granny with an AK!
.

Posted by: jprestonian | January 21, 2011 9:29 AM | Report abuse

The POINT is the Operational TACTICS of Obama and the liberals have NOT BEEN CIVIL.


In fact, Obama and the liberals have been PROVOKING PEOPLE.


"What is government when words have no meaning"


What is a smear campaign when the charges are false??

What is a President when all his campaign themes are DECEPTIONS???


What are the liberals when they trample DEMOCRACY ???


I can see the liberals have already ceased to be CIVIL - all that was a bunch of crap just to get them out of their own SMEAR CAMPAIGN.

The American People are watching.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:30 AM | Report abuse

"Hats off to all of our fine L.E. people. You are awesome."

Yep, let's leave the killing to the pros. You need lots of training to shoot a 7-year-old through the throat.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/16/michigan.police.child/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

Or a 68-year old.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20110107swat_shooting_spurs_debate/srvc=home&position=recent

Sometimes you have to pretend to befriend them before you shoot them dead in their home.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/12/AR2011011205936.html

but not always.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/27/AR2010012703907.html


Posted by: NoVAHockey | January 21, 2011 9:34 AM | Report abuse

@ruk: "You need to realize the stupidity of your thoughts..."

Just thought I'd remind you, or anybody, that nobody ever realizes the stupidity of their thoughts when told that they need to realize the stupidity of their thoughts. ;)

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 21, 2011 9:34 AM | Report abuse

From the Tankersley article:

"Perhaps, some economists theorize, the United States isn’t creating innovative jobs because its workforce isn’t up to the challenge. For probably the first time in history, our young adults are no better educated than their parents. Nearly all our international rivals, in developed and developing economies alike, continue to make generational leaps in college graduation. Brainpower is still our comparative advantage with the rest of the world, but the advantage is shrinking."
...

"Mounting evidence suggests that educational stagnation has already socked American workers, particularly men. David Autor, the associate chairman of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s economics department, makes the case in a series of recent papers that globalization has effectively “hollowed out” much of the country’s middle-skill jobs—assembly-line, call-center, and bookkeeping occupations, for example—and replaced them with a computer or a lower-paid foreign worker.

Those types of jobs typically required technical training but not necessarily a college degree. As the jobs disappear, the workers who held them are generally pushed into lower-skill, lower-paid occupations such as retail or janitorial services, because they lack the education to compete for higher-wage, higher-skill jobs such as engineering."

Posted by: suekzoo1 | January 21, 2011 9:36 AM | Report abuse

AND if we are going to have to listen to all this "big lie" garbage -


AFTER all the DECEPTIONS OF OBAMA, AND OBAMA'S BAIT AND SWITCH.


Things are not going to be Civil -


AND the American People ALREADY can see the BS of the democrats


How long did it take the democrats to go back to their BS ? Less than a WEEK??? How pathetic and WORTHLESS does that make anything the democrats say ????


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:39 AM | Report abuse

NoVAHockey: "Yep, let's leave the killing to the pros. You need lots of training to shoot a 7-year-old through the throat."

These folks are the exceptions, not the rules. I second Ruk's hats off to our Law Enforcement people.

@bernie: "As with media, science, economics, etc, the attempt here is to create an epistemological framework which is based on partisan/ideological identification"

There is no need to create such a framework; we naturally construct and participate in that framework, in the same manner that we all eat, sleep, and breathe. We naturally identify and associate based on arbitrary factors--otherwise, there'd be no such thing as brand loyalty, and there would be no sports franchises.

BTW, legitimate authority should be able to bear up under questioning and scrutiny and criticism, no matter how presumptuous, otherwise the legitimacy must stem, in no small part, from simply not ever having been substantially challenged.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 21, 2011 9:41 AM | Report abuse

I can see the 2012 election - all we are going to have is CHILDISH BEHAVIOR from the democrats.

that is only going to confirm that the country is firm its decision to DRIVE THE LIBERALS OUT OF TOWN.

__________________________


The POINT is the Operational TACTICS of Obama and the liberals have NOT BEEN CIVIL.


In fact, Obama and the liberals have been PROVOKING PEOPLE.


"What is government when words have no meaning"


What is a smear campaign when the charges are false??

What is a President when all his campaign themes are DECEPTIONS???


What are the liberals when they trample DEMOCRACY ???


I can see the liberals have already ceased to be CIVIL - all that was a bunch of crap just to get them out of their own SMEAR CAMPAIGN.

The American People are watching.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:42 AM | Report abuse

jprestonian, if only someone would post the dictionary definitions of "simulation" and "fetus"!

Posted by: clawrence12 | January 21, 2011 9:45 AM | Report abuse


AND if we are going to have to listen to all this "big lie" garbage -


AFTER all the DECEPTIONS OF OBAMA, AND OBAMA'S BAIT AND SWITCH.....


AFTER ALL THE FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM...


Things are not going to be Civil -


AND the American People ALREADY can see the BS of the democrats


How long did it take the democrats to go back to their BS ? Less than a WEEK??? How pathetic and WORTHLESS does that make anything the democrats say ????


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:46 AM | Report abuse

ruk,

"But that's hypothetical let's look at REALITY. Several bystanders were armed.
Kudos to Mr. Zamudio who is a 2nd Amendment supporter...he was armed..he got his wakeup call..got the beejeesus scared out of him because he almost shot an INNOCENT man, and was so shaken up he told the truth about his frightening experience."

I don't know where you are getting your facts other than the misleading column Greg linked, but I'd suggest you aren't familiar with the actual facts of Zamudio's involvement and what he said about it. Your account isn't what he said in any account I've read or seen, including his interview with Ed Schultz. Loughner was already on the ground when he arrived at the scene. He had his hand on his pistol but never drew it and didn't almost shoot anyone. I've seen him express no regret or "wakeup call" experience showing him the "stupidity" of carrying a gun. To the contrary, he strongly reaffirmed his belief in it.

As for studies, I won't bother. The columnist cites a couple he likes. John Lott has rather persuasively rebutted such claims. But in the end you are talking about an unalienable right to self defense.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 21, 2011 9:49 AM | Report abuse

@jprestonian "Can't really kill a simulation." Indeed! :-) Kind of like the old joke..if a plane crashes on the Canadian/American border which side of the line do they bury the survivors?

@Kevin "Just thought I'd remind you, or anybody, that nobody ever realizes the stupidity of their thoughts when told that they need to realize the stupidity of their thoughts. ;)

Probably true my Memphis buddy but you just made me realize the stupidity of me posting that..or the stupidity of MY thoughts. LOL Don't know if that counters your point or not? :-)

OT for some early morning humor before Liam beats me to the punch since he is a huge Bears fans. Disclosure...I root for the Tampa Bay Bucs but since my in-laws are huge Packer fans I'm rooting for the cheeseheads on Sunday. Sorry Liam.

Anyway here goes...from the Bears fans a riddle...

What do you call a 400lb Packer Fan?

Anorexic!!! Badda Boom!

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 21, 2011 9:50 AM | Report abuse

AND if we are going to have to listen to all this "big lie" garbage -


AFTER all the DECEPTIONS OF OBAMA, AND OBAMA'S BAIT AND SWITCH.....


AFTER ALL THE FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM...


Things are not going to be Civil -


AND the American People already can see the BS of the democrats


Obama and the liberals have turned our political system the GREATEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD INTO A CIRCUS.


It is a complete disgrace to the nation.

How long did it take the democrats to go back to their BS ? Less than a WEEK??? How pathetic and WORTHLESS does that make anything the democrats say ????


.


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:51 AM | Report abuse

&suekzoo: bingo. And the military is having a hard time finding skilled recruits too.

With so much emphasis shifted from technical to business-related education, America is no longer producing a competitive citizenry.

Even Microsoft now hires Bangalore Wunderkinder who don't know *basic* stuff.

Posted by: caothien9 | January 21, 2011 9:52 AM | Report abuse

Hey Forrest, do you drool in the middle of your rants? Just want to understand what we're dealing with here.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 21, 2011 9:52 AM | Report abuse

Q.B. Welcome back!!!

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one Q.B. Between my military experience and that opportunity to join the L.E. people in their training room this just seems self evident to me.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 21, 2011 9:53 AM | Report abuse

rukidding

the survivors get buried years later when they die

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 9:54 AM | Report abuse

@RFR "the survivors get buried years later when they die"

Have you heard that riddle before or did you figure it out by yourself?

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 21, 2011 9:56 AM | Report abuse

"These folks are the exceptions, not the rules. I second Ruk's hats off to our Law Enforcement people."

I totally disagree. I found 3 of these in a 10 second google search. This happens all the time. and it's not just the locals. Here's the DEA. They knew the had the wrong house, but they went in guns drawn anyway.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20110115/NEWS03/101150330/DEA-issues-apology-for-wrong-door-raid-Spring-Valley-man-says-no-one-contacted-him

And these guys are not punished. they're promoted. http://www.katu.com/news/local/111615814.html

and it's not just cops, it's the DAs too. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/2010-12-08-prosecutor_N.htm


Posted by: NoVAHockey | January 21, 2011 9:58 AM | Report abuse

AND if we are going to have to listen to all this "big lie" garbage -


AFTER all the DECEPTIONS OF OBAMA, AND OBAMA'S BAIT AND SWITCH.....


AFTER ALL THE FALSE CHARGES OF RACISM...


Things are not going to be Civil -


AND the American People already can see the BS of the democrats


Obama and the liberals have turned our political system the GREATEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD INTO A CIRCUS.


It is a complete disgrace to the nation.

How long did it take the democrats to go back to their BS ? Less than a WEEK??? How pathetic and WORTHLESS does that make anything the democrats say ????


.


Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 10:04 AM | Report abuse

rukidding


I don't remember that particular one - but it sounded like the old Whose buried in Grant's tomb ?

or the What color was Martha's Washington's White Horse?


(no one is buried in Grant's tomb, its a tomb and both people are above ground)

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | January 21, 2011 10:06 AM | Report abuse

ruk,

We'll see if I stay "back." I'm waiting to see what overhaul Greg announces.

I wasn't arguing so much with your general point of view (though I think this is a case where what seems self-evident to you actually isn't borne out by careful analysis) but with your use of Zamudio as a poster boy for it.

Moreover, supposing, for example, that I were the 12th or 15th victim of Loughner, I think I might have had at least a decent chance of not being shot if Zamudio had been standing next to him armed all along. Call me crazy.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 21, 2011 10:06 AM | Report abuse

"but two new polls out this morning offer a sobering reminder of the ground he needs to make up on the economy and job creation"

The first AP poll on this subject in Sep of 09 had his approval on the economy @

Approve: 44
Disapprove: 52

Now its @

Approve: 47
Disapprove: 53

That looks like an approval tbh. Just sayin....

But regardless, jobs need to be created.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 21, 2011 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Sarge writes
"* Obama vulnerable on jobs and the economy...
* Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs"

And I see over at Klein's daily summary that the TEA wing of the house GOP wants to cut $100B from the budget this year. The Obama admin needs to get loud about how such cuts would affect jobs. Cutting $100B in spending is pulling $100B out of the economy & that kind of money buys a lot of jobs. If you end up laying off workers, the savings is lost as you add to the unemployment rolls, which costs less but returns less.


Posted by: bsimon1 | January 21, 2011 10:09 AM | Report abuse

I guess there's no chance that Obama or anyone else will flog the polling about cutting military spending in lieu of SS?

Didn't think so.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | January 21, 2011 10:12 AM | Report abuse

@NoVAHockey

I had posted earlier that my experience in Vietnam taught me the real danger of weapons.

8 weeks of Basic training...one of them on rifle range...an entire week of concentrated training...augmented by many hours of instruction about disassembling and cleaning our weapons...and a heavy emphasis on SAFETY.
The military were truly professional in handling weapons because of course weapons are one the main tools of the trade.........Still...if you knew how many goobers accidentally shot one of their buddies in Vietnam you would be surprised.

L.E. are the same as the military. They train...they TRY...but again NoVA and I especially would love for YOU to do this...not in any snark..but because I feel your disgust at the stories you've linked...with some justification...you need to find out where a neighborhood L.E. agency opens up this "shooting" classroom and put yourself through the experience.
I promise you will gain a different perspective.

"I found 3 of these in a 10 second google search."

Your posts are always so cogent and pointedly correct...and you have pointed out errors in my posts..which I appreciate..so may I ask you to reconsider the context and implication of that statement. 3 in a ten second google search is really nothing. If you found 100 in a 30 second search...still nothing...a 1000 of these examples..while lamentable would still not negate my fundamental point...Hooray for our L.E. people. They put their lives on the line for our lives and protection. Do they fail at times...absolutely. Do you get the occasional "bully"..absolutely...but again taken as a whole...consider how many times L.E. have to fire their weapons each year....how many times they are fired upon...3 hits in 10 seconds is actually meaningless...1000 egregious mistakes would still represent a % so minuscule as to not even reach 1%.

But you actually make my main point NoVa.
You are pointing out the failures of a highly trained, highly motivated force of professionals. Can you imagine how bad it would be if Joe Six Pack starts drawing down and "defending" us?

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 21, 2011 10:13 AM | Report abuse

ru- The Bears were on SI's cover this week, the Packers are golden.

Was there really only 1 armed civilian in the crowd in Arizona?

We also have to be careful to draw conclusions too broadly regarding whether or not an armed citizen could make a difference in shooting rampages. There are so many variables for each situation that it seems impossible to come to a conclusion that universally applies to such situations.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | January 21, 2011 10:17 AM | Report abuse

@ ruk. give me 10 minutes. have to do something and will respond.

Posted by: NoVAHockey | January 21, 2011 10:24 AM | Report abuse

Poll: Only 42% Would Vote to Re-Elect Obama, 51% Prefer Someone Else
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/poll1.pdf

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 21, 2011 10:26 AM | Report abuse

Fox polls, lol.

They are conducted by Rasmussen which was just recently proved to have a +6R bias in the recent election.

http://liberaldefenderoffreedom.blogspot.com/2010/11/foxpulse-gallup-and-rasmussen-polling.html

Factor that in and the Fox poll result turns into a net positive and lines up with other pollsters. Surprise surprise surprise.

But, if it makes you sleep better at night, stick to Fox. I wouldn't want you to get any more unhinged around here and flirt with Forrest levels of insanity.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | January 21, 2011 10:33 AM | Report abuse

@NoVA I've gotta run but I'll come back later for your post. I always enjoy reading you because you don't come across as an ideologue for EITHER side and as I mentioned before your posts are cogent and on point...

Ahhh but now being the tree hugging, pinko commie, wimpy, liberal, progressive, "unreal" American that I am...it's off to Yoga class for some stretching and peace of mind. Then I have to do my upper body lifting to remain in top shape because one poster here has already asked for my address so he can come to Florida and settle this "in person". As 12Bar might say bwhaaaaa haaaa! Actually fitness won't help will it...those kind of loud mouth I'll kick you butt types usually NEED to come armed with their Glock.

BTW I do not threaten people with physical violence since the Army. While stationed for 8 months in Thailand our barracks went through 4 barracks "roosters" bullies whatever...EVERY one of those 4 dudes eventually ended up getting his own butt severely kicked. A couple actually had to spend time in the infirmary. It's a cliche I know but it is ohhh so true in real life..."He who lives by the sword dies by the sword."

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 21, 2011 10:45 AM | Report abuse

IT'S OFFICIAL: Barack Obama Is Worst Jobs President Since Great Depression
http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

And, it only took him 18 months... another record!

Barry Soetoro is objectively the worst jobs president since the Great Depression and possibly is the worst jobs president in US History.

So it comes as no surprise to most folks (besides delusional mikey) that a majority of Americans don’t want to see Obama reelected.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | January 21, 2011 10:49 AM | Report abuse

All, new Adam Serwer post on GOP planned spending cuts:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/defunding_usaid_is_a_bad_idea.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | January 21, 2011 10:50 AM | Report abuse

It's very curious that a purportedly liberal blog is so filled with right-wingers posting their truthiness.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/06words.htm

Posted by: LeftCoast5 | January 21, 2011 10:56 AM | Report abuse

RUK, what I offered you was an opportunity to call me "an effing moron" to my face.

funny how you so blatantly mischaracterize that to cover your own lack of civility.

I don't recall an apology and my offer still stands. I haven't had a grouper burger in quite some time, so I could accomplish two tasks with one trip. (1) I could give you the pleasure of sharing your spittle fleck rant directly at me without concern that Mr Sargent would ban you for you ghastly manners. (2) I can warm up my cold, cold body while I soak up the sun and pray for your severly damaged soul.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 21, 2011 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Kadaffi: "Poll: Only 42% Would Vote to Re-Elect Obama, 51% Prefer Someone Else"

Polls, schmolls. Historical trends, in this regard, have a better predictive accuracy than polling, especially this far out.

Unless challenged in the primary or a 3rd party runs, Obama will probably win, unless an incredibly persuasive and charismatic Republican challenges him with more substance and style that most of the Republican field can apparently manage, right now.

What such polls actually might predict would be coat tails, and it's like Obama will find ticket-splitters re-electing him and removing (or at least giving him no more) allies in the house and senate.

Laugh if you like. We'll see what 2012 has to say.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | January 21, 2011 11:30 AM | Report abuse

Kevin Willis writes
"Obama will probably win, unless an incredibly persuasive and charismatic Republican challenges him with more substance and style that most of the Republican field can apparently manage, right now."


Or, as we like to say in the cliche business, you can't beat something with nothing.

.

Posted by: bsimon1 | January 21, 2011 11:36 AM | Report abuse

@Skip You don't have to come here for grouper...but more importantly you don't have to come all the way to Florida to pray for my "severly damaged soul."

I'll take your prayers from Ohio right now.:-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 21, 2011 11:54 AM | Report abuse

@ruk I have a bit of a blind spot here. I find these cases infuriating. I'm not anti-police, but i think the use of force as gotten way out of control. A SWAT team member shot an un-armed man while they were serving a routine warrant for some trumped up gambling charges. There was no reason to send a SWAT officer in this situation. I don't think this is a training issue, but a use of force issue and a budget justification issue. Can't have the SWAT team twiddling its thumbs for months on end until a violent situation occurs. So we send them on routine warrants to pad the stats. And it makes for great TV (That 7-year-old was shot in front on an A&E camera crew). I would propose that the official who signed off on this tactic has no business being a police officer. It was reckless and needless. Marines oversees show more restraint. SWAT should be a last resort, not routine. Yet police agencies across the country are sending them in for reasons at are dubious at best. Mostly small amounts of drugs. I would say that the government a better reason to bust your door down and point a gun at you than some drugs or gambling. Simply because mistakes do happen. Better to not create the situation. The response typically is, "well if we don't go in hard and fast, they'll flush the drugs." I say fine, they're off the street and everyone is still alive, which is the goal, right? Fairfax settled with the family involved in this case ($2 million). But they had the means to push back. This case? -- http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/30/us/30lima.html -- it's not clear what happened, but there are reports that she was on the ground and complying while holding a baby when she was shot dead. That shouldn't happen in this country -- ever. Not even once. Either way, the take away from that article is "Black people in Lima, from the poorest citizens to religious and business leaders, complain that rogue police officers regularly stop them without cause, point guns in their faces, curse them and physically abuse them."

"If you found 100 in a 30 second search..." I'm not sure I understand this point. I think this is a systemic problem. If a rich, white ophthalmologist can get gunned down by police in Fairfax, one of the richest areas in the nation, for frankly, no reason, are they really keeping us safe? In my opinion, this is more than lamentable. "Can you imagine how bad it would be if Joe Six Pack starts drawing down and "defending" us?" I think it's a separate issue. Joe six pack has a right to defend himself and would be held responsible for his mistakes. No "administrative leave pending an investigation" for him. And Joe isn't going to start knocking down doors in the middle of the night under the banner of protect and serve.

Posted by: NoVAHockey | January 21, 2011 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Truthiness is so passe. It's all about truciness now.

Posted by: quarterback1 | January 21, 2011 12:04 PM | Report abuse

And I'll take your apology whenever you become man enough to offer it.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 21, 2011 1:38 PM | Report abuse

@skip You have my apology...sincerely and without snark. I left the blog after that post for about two months because the bitter vitriol and hostility were getting to me quite frankly.

If I called you an "effing moron"..and I have no reason to doubt your memory of those posts, so no need to go back and look them up...hopefully I've changed. Not only do I regret calling anyone an effing moron but I'm happy to apologize to you personally Skip. No more skippys or effing morons OK. Now that I've apologized I hope I can still have your prayers from Ohio...I'll take prayers from anywhere in the country and anybody who will say them for me, I need all the help I can get.

@NoVa Those are all excellent points and I can certainly understand your feelings.
I'm always concerned when the "police" state becomes too powerful...actually more about our culture, our leaders, than the actual cop on the beat. As you suggest sometimes perhaps there is more than simple law enforcement at work...PR plays too large a role as you suggest...and sometimes that PR is a result of budgets..making sure they never gets cut.

At any rate I suspect we agree more than we disagree NoVa. Certainly whenever force is required for defense either abroad by our military, or at home by our L.E. officers...there are abuses that will take place as well as accidents. As a vet I love the troops but a few of them are animals...I've seen them in Vietnam...they have been part of every war...I don't defend these folks..but quite honestly I think if you arm a bunch of people and prepare them for violence...there are some horrible and sad unintended consequences.
Which is another reason I'm basically a pacifist...I'm willing to defend myself..believe in my nation's defense..but really violence should be a last option...and our cowboy mentality somehow feels more manly when we're kicking butt!!! BRING IT ON..ehhh. LMAO!!!
I laugh because otherwise I'd cry..Bring it on is such a freaking pathetic response.

Posted by: rukidding7 | January 21, 2011 4:53 PM | Report abuse

Bailouts, bailouts bailouts! President Obama has probably saved more jobs that provide individual million-dollar salaries than any President in history. Sterling Greenwood/AspenFreePress

Posted by: AspenFreePress | January 23, 2011 12:03 PM | Report abuse

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