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Posted at 5:56 PM ET, 02/ 2/2011

Happy Hour Roundup

By Greg Sargent

* Great read from Matt Miller, who imagines President Hillary Clinton signing universal health care into law in 2017, as a consequence of Republicans successfully repealing "Obamacare" right now.

* Some on the right have been banking heavily on Senator Ben Nelson's support in the push to repeal health reform, predicting that he will be under heavy pressure to support legislation introduced by GOP Senators Lindsey Graham and John Barrasso that would allow states to opt out of aspects of the law like the individual mandate.

But his office emails that he will not support that legislation:

After learning its full details Sen. Nelson will not support Sen. Barrasso's proposal. With no alternatives, it would let states opt out of all insurance reforms and consumer protections, the individual and employer mandate and the state Medicaid expansion, basically all of health reform. That would mean taking away health care that hundreds of thousands of Nebraska families, children and seniors are receiving now, which he cannot support.

* Also: The Senate vote on repeal of reform is set for tonight, and Nelson and all other Dems who were said to be wavering are expected to hold the line.

It's another sign that Dems are far more united against repeal than they ever were for the bill itself.

* Takedown of the day: The Center for American Progress has an extremelydetailed rebuttal to Judge Vinson's opinion.

* Yes, they are crazy lefties, but even Ronald Reagan's solicitor general is "quite sure the mandate is constitutional," because, you know, Congress has "the power to regulate."

* Harry Reid's staff confirms he's "absolutely opposed" to raising the Social Security retirement age, which Obama has not yet been willing to say.

* Igor Volsky tallies up all the millions in specific federal grants that Florida governor Rick Scott will surely be returning one of these days.

* No matter how hard he tries, Jonathan Capehart can't seem to get House Republicans to define "forcible rape."

* Senator Jon Tester hammers his GOP opponent as extreme for bringing Tea Party warrior queen Michele Bachmann to Montana to campaign for him, pointing to her proposal to cut veterans' benefits.

Also key in the above link: Tester, a vulnerable Dem who was under pressure to support repeal, comes out against it.

* White House reporters complain of limited access to Obama and Robert Gibbs as the Egypt crisis unfolded.

* Chaos! The 2012 GOP field could be the largest in history, making it tougher for Republicans to ultimately unite behind a challenger to Obama.

* And best wishes to Glenn Greenwald, who's finally out of the hospital after an illness.

What else is happening?

By Greg Sargent  | February 2, 2011; 5:56 PM ET
Categories:  Foreign policy and national security, Happy Hour Roundup, Health reform, Senate Dems  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Wisconsin AG clarifies claim that health law is "dead"
Next: The Morning Plum

Comments


The health care law is dead - by whatever method, it's out the window.


Politically, Obama would be best-off by agreeing to a REPEAL - and getting it off his plate for the next election.


However, the democrats seem resolved to follow Obama off the cliff.


Politically, the law is dead.


The law will be repealed at some point - some way - DEFUNDED or whatever - it is going out. The liberals should just concede now. Everything from now on for the liberals are just AVOIDABLE LOSSES.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 6:00 PM | Report abuse

Last night:

"President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt announced today, that he will not run for another term. The bad news is that he going to be succeeded by his idiot son, Hosni W. Mubarak."
David Letterman

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 6:01 PM | Report abuse

KEEP AN EYE ON HOW CLOSE OBAMA GETS TO THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD


Obama might be implementing his "Muslim Agenda"


Does Obama really have the same international goals as the REAL NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?

Or does Obama have a SECRET MUSLIM AGENDA?

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 6:03 PM | Report abuse

I will. I am sure he will invite me to visit him in his new home in Cairo.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Isn't "takedown" a violent metaphor?

Also, the only commenter on Capehart's thread defined "forcible rape" just fine.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Liberals

If you think you are on the side of the Muslim Brotherhood and the people on the streets of Cairo -

This is how they treat liberals:


Anderson Cooper was attacked in Egypt Wednesday.

CNN producer Steve Brusk Tweeted, "Anderson said he was punched 10 times in the head as pro-Mubarak mob surrounded him and his crew trying to cover demonstration."

Cooper then escaped to the roof of a nearby building, where he said on air that he and his crew were trying to get to a neutral zone between protestors and pro-Mubarak supporters when they "were set upon by pro-Mubarak supporters punching us in the head. The crowd kept growing, kept throwing punches, kicks...suddenly a young man would look at you and punch you in the face."

____________________

Maybe Greg Sargant should go to Egypt


Greg can give the crowd there some of his "nuances" -


AND see how they respond.....

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 6:06 PM | Report abuse

I personally don't care if Obama agrees to the REPEAL of health care or not.

The truth is that it is better for the Republicans if Obama keeps up with his arrogance, ridiculous attitude.


And it is better for Republicans if the democrats around the country continue to follow Obama off this cliff.


It really is their choice.


Go ahead - and do it for all I care.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Good point STRF. Looks like The Muslim Brotherhood are fellow travellers with Your Republican Party, since they both love to attack liberals.

This could work out very well for Rudi, Newt, McCain, Fred Thompson, etc, since their new found Muslim Brotherhood allies, will allow them to have three wives at the same time.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 6:11 PM | Report abuse

Pssst...Mitt:

Never.Try.Comedy.Ever.Again.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/romney-reads-mittiest-top-10-list-on-letterman-video.php?ref=fpb

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 2, 2011 6:15 PM | Report abuse

Liam

I am not saying that - and please dont twist around my statements (you have enough to work with, don't you?)


I said that Obama and the liberals would be STUPID enough to support a movement in Egypt, which will end up being controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood

Obama and the liberals would do this, thinking that the new government would be friendly, when in fact anyone with any knowledge of the situation would know that such a government would be HOSTILE TO AMERICAN INTERESTS.

If the liberals support the installation of such a government, they are being STUPID, and risking American National Security.

Obama might do this - either being MISGUIDED by his inferior thinking - or by INTENTIONAL IMPLEMENTATION OF OBAMA'S SECRET MUSLIM AGENDA

There is no reason that the American People should believe that Obama's loyalties are 100% in line with American National Security interests.

There is no reason such a person should be President during a time of crisis.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 6:17 PM | Report abuse

STRF. You said the Muslim Brotherhood attacked a liberal, just like you Right Wing Nut jobs always do.

Republicans and The Muslim Brother Hood are soul mates. Why you guys even try to control Women in the very same way.

I bet the Kotch Brothers will soon invite The Muslim Brotherhood to send a delegation to come and stay at their plush compound.


Far Right Wingers and The Muslim Brotherhood. Like two peas in a pod, or a Marriage Made In Hell.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 6:23 PM | Report abuse

@Sue

LOL. Yes Mitt is certainly no comedian! Contrast him with Michael Steele who now that he's been unleashed of responsibility at the RNC is actually turning out to be a charming and witty guy. He and Rachel Maddow joked and cut up through their entire interview and last night Steele was relaxed and charming with John Stewart playing opposite a puppet.
That is no small achievement...kids..animals..and puppets...never share the stage with them because they will always upstage you...but not Steele.

Still back to the thrust of your point Sue it's hard to imagine Mittens on stage with Huck. Huckabee is avuncular, witty, great smile..and all those years of public speaking from the pulpit. If fact imagine Huck on stage with Mittens, Pawlenty, Palin, Gingrich, Bachmann...this is like imagining David Letterman on stage competing in a High School Variety show.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 6:29 PM | Report abuse

"STRF. You said the Muslim Brotherhood attacked a liberal, just like you Right Wing Nut jobs always do."

Liam, just out of curiosity, is there such a thing as a "leftwing nut job,". And if so, would you name us one?

Hope all is well with you and always read your provocative comments. Thanks in advance, by the way. ;-)

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 2, 2011 6:32 PM | Report abuse

Speculation on my part. The reason it's difficult to find someone who can define forcible rape is because the real goal of the bill is to keep inching our way toward zero insurance coverage for a legal medical procedure. Of course Democrats made the first move during the health care debate and now once again the health and welfare of women in their child bearing years becomes the ping pong ball of male legislators.

Posted by: lmsinca | February 2, 2011 6:32 PM | Report abuse

Liam

Well, only a person who has been corrected will continue to act like an child and insist on twisting another's words.


This is why people use violent methaphors against liberals like you - this kind of talk


If you were here in this room with me, I am sure you would not speak this way to my face. Because of course, you would be well aware of the potential for a violent metaphor.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 6:34 PM | Report abuse

Speculation on my part. The reason it's difficult to find someone who can define forcible rape is because the real goal of the bill is to keep inching our way toward zero insurance coverage for a legal medical procedure. Of course Democrats made the first move during the health care debate and now once again the health and welfare of women in their child bearing years becomes the ping pong ball of male legislators.

Posted by: lmsinca | February 2, 2011 6:32 PM |
............................

It strikes me that forcible rape is a redundancy. When isn't rape an act of force against a victim.

I think people need to keep their focus on the real issue, and not get side tracked with debating semantics;

The real issue is; Social Conservatives are trying to pass a law, that would require a women impregnated by a rapist to carry the rapist's embryo to full term.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 6:43 PM | Report abuse

Health Care repeal effort defeated in the US Senate:

"ASHINGTON — As expected, the Senate has rejected a Republican attempt to repeal the year-old health care law. The ultimate fate of the controversial law is expected to be determined by the Supreme Court.

But congressional Republicans emboldened by gains in last fall's elections have made a priority of trying to wipe it off the books. All 47 members of the GOP rank and file voted for repeal. There were 51 votes to leave it in place, 50 Democrats and one independent."

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 6:53 PM | Report abuse

The effort to repeal health care in the Senate did not work 47 - 51


However, MOST of those 51 were elected in 2006 and 2010 - so they are coming up for re-election soon.


Here is the list of democrats in the Senate who RISKED re-election today by being ARROGANT AND STUPID

Bill Nelson of Florida

Debbie Stabenow of Michigan

Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota

Claire McCaskill of Missouri

Jon Tester of Montana

Ben Nelson of Nebraska

Bob Menendez of New Jersey

Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico

Sherrod Brown of Ohio

Bob Casey, Jr. of Pennsylvania

Jim Webb of Virginia

Maria Cantwell of Washington

Joe Manchin of West Virginia

Herb Kohl of Wisconsin


One initially would not put New Jersey on this list, however Chris Christie won recently, and New Jersey is in play.

Pennsylvania recently elected a Republican Governor and the Senate seat went to a Republican.


Jim Webb might not even run in Virginia -


Manchin might have some strength because he is new and popular, and he really has tried to distance himself from Obama. However, the liberals have a choice, he can either vote with them and risk re-election OR vote against Obama and make himself more secure.


Which would you do???


Overall, the Republicans are a stones-throw from taking control of the Senate - and the truth is they are within reach of 60 votes.

If Obama is re-nominated, the Republicans will get to 60 votes, there is little doubt that Obama will drag the democrats that far down.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 6:56 PM | Report abuse

Now we have the names of all 47 Republican Senators having voted to go back to letting the Insurance Ponzi Operators, take money from healthy people, and refuse to cover those who might become sick.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 6:56 PM | Report abuse

@Troll

"Liam, just out of curiosity, is there such a thing as a "leftwing nut job,". And if so, would you name us one?"

May I jump in and take this one..with an assist from Liam and perhaps even lmsinca.

I think you probably came to us when the Fix collapsed. Prior to that..actually months before during the heart of the debate over HCR..we had a fellow who called himself News Reference. I recall several progressives on this very blog who thought of News Ref as a leftwing nutjob and Liam may have even called him that right here on the P.L. That was almost a year ago, I'm getting up there in age :-)
but Liam and lmsinca were certainly around and they can confirm or deny that at least "some" of our progressives thought of New Ref as a leftwing nutjob...and I believe that included Liam.

Short answer to your question however..Absolutely there are leftwing nutjobs. Communism surely is not MY thing.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 6:56 PM | Report abuse

Liam: "Health Care repeal effort defeated in the US Senate"

Better still, it wasn't an up/down vote on repeal, but a vote to sustain an objection. LOL That damn CBO!

"By a vote of 47-51, the Senate sustained an objection to the legislation on the grounds that it does not comply with congressional budget rules. Because a full repeal of the law is projected to increase the deficit, waiving that point of order would have required 60 votes."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/senate-effort-to-repeal-health-care-law-fails.php?ref=fpb

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 2, 2011 6:59 PM | Report abuse

"It strikes me that forcible rape is a redundancy."

Bingo Liam! Isn't that kind of like being partially pregnant. Is there some kind of enjoyable or participatory rape? I'm serious here...what is rape if it's not forcible? I thought that was called consensual sex. I'm not being snarky here I truly do not get the distinction...can rape EVER be consensual sex?

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 7:02 PM | Report abuse

Rukidding,

I have chosen to ignore his usual "just curious" gambit, since he will not stop always trying to reduce a grown man to childhood status, by only referring to him as "Barry". Accordingly, I have chosen to treat him as just another insincere right wing low life, who thinks he has found a very sly subliminal way to always call President Obama; Boy.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 7:03 PM | Report abuse

Interesting polling on Egyptian Muslim views:

http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Posted by: sbj3 | February 2, 2011 7:07 PM | Report abuse

A must read piece on the Koch brothers reliance on goons, intimidation and your general authoritarian techniques. Un-nice fellows, these two...

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=48AFDC2A-E10F-4DC3-A8A9-15DBEBA3F8F2

And another must read from James Vega here...

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2011/02/beyond_civility_in_the_1950s_a.php

Posted by: bernielatham | February 2, 2011 7:10 PM | Report abuse

"It strikes me that forcible rape is a redundancy."

Bingo Liam! Isn't that kind of like being partially pregnant. Is there some kind of enjoyable or participatory rape? I'm serious here...what is rape if it's not forcible? I thought that was called consensual sex. I'm not being snarky here I truly do not get the distinction...can rape EVER be consensual sex?

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 7:02 PM

......................

It is just more Orwellian Double Speak from The Republicans. The only rape that could be technically argued to not have involved physical force, is statutory rape, and even then, the person who was raped, is not legally capable of giving consent, so it still is an act of force.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 7:11 PM | Report abuse

Not in the roundup but still on this page is an interesting story. Perhaps Cao will join us later to weigh in from his perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/02/AR2011020203272.html

The candidate — the man behind the wheel, the man who can't find his lane — is a guy named Fred. He's exploring the possibility of running for president of the United States.

He is doing this as an openly gay Republican who's never held elective office, using money he amassed as a conservative consultant who helped torpedo Michael Dukakis with the Willie Horton ads in 1988 and worked for the tobacco industry to stave off smoking bans in California in the '90s."

Is that wild or what? An openly gay man running for President and he's a Republican?

I wasn't sure I'd ever see a black President in my lifetime...but I had hope...the same thing for a woman...and really how hard is it to imagine Joe Biden stepping down and Hillary pulling off a double...first woman VP followed by in '16 being the first woman President. Far from a lock but at least plausible or possible.

Now let's go to the impossible...alas I do not expect to see in my lifetime any of the following with a chance to run for President... I'll list them in the order of "impossibility" or "least chance" so to speak. Feel free to play along.

1.)A Muslim

2.)Anyone who is not an open professing Christian.

3.) An openly gay man. Sorry Cao, I know it's not right but I'm talking about reality here. I wish it weren't so...and actually of these three I think the openly gay man has the best chance..although saying you have a better chance than a Muslim is not really saying much. And #2 is moot because the openly gay man would also have to be part of a Christian church that accepted gays. I mean really just how "different" can one be and still be accepted by the masses? We're not exactly a nation of open minded people.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 7:15 PM | Report abuse

There's always statutory rape, which I'm sure is enjoyable, but I guess still isn't legally consensual.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Prof. Fried also placidly admits that under his view the federal government can pretty much compel you to buy or do anything it wants, so long as it doesn't infringe a guaranteed right. So, he says, the feds could in fact force us to buy our vegetables; it just might not be able to force us to eat them (5th Amendment, you know).

By this standard, the government could also require us to exercise, have regular check ups, and get proper sleep, just to name three things that come quickly to mind. His argument is rather weak -- it is so because I'm quite sure it is so.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 2, 2011 7:19 PM | Report abuse

Gaffney proves that some delusional states have a deeper bottom than one might ever have guessed...

"During Hannity last night on Fox, Gaffney reiterated his extraordinary claim that the federal government was already being manipulated by the Muslim Brotherhood, who he alleged was giving surreptitious advice to the Obama administration. The problem went even further, according to Gaffney. The Muslim Brotherhood was currently waging “an influence operation against the conservative movement” as well.

Assuming the role of a modern-day Paul Revere, Gaffney yesterday tried to “warn” a group of “senior conservative leaders” about the ongoing threat of an Islamist takeover of the conservative movement. Yet according to Gaffney, “They don’t want to hear it either! This is endemic”:"

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/02/gaffney-muslim-brother/

I give him two more years before his mother becomes suspect.

Posted by: bernielatham | February 2, 2011 7:23 PM | Report abuse

Don't worry QB. You are safe. The government is never going to force A Turnip to purchase other vegetables.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 7:26 PM | Report abuse

Here is the list of democrats in the Senate who RISKED re-election today by being ARROGANT AND STUPID


Bill Nelson of Florida

Debbie Stabenow of Michigan

Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota

Claire McCaskill of Missouri

Jon Tester of Montana

Ben Nelson of Nebraska

Bob Menendez of New Jersey

Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico

Sherrod Brown of Ohio

Bob Casey, Jr. of Pennsylvania

Jim Webb of Virginia

Maria Cantwell of Washington

Joe Manchin of West Virginia

Herb Kohl of Wisconsin

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 7:29 PM | Report abuse

This is the LIST OF DEMOCRATS WHO ARE LOSING THEIR JOBS IN THE NEXT ELECTION

Because of the arrogance of Obama


Bill Nelson of Florida

Debbie Stabenow of Michigan

Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota

Claire McCaskill of Missouri

Jon Tester of Montana

Ben Nelson of Nebraska

Bob Menendez of New Jersey

Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico

Sherrod Brown of Ohio

Bob Casey, Jr. of Pennsylvania

Jim Webb of Virginia

Maria Cantwell of Washington

Joe Manchin of West Virginia

Herb Kohl of Wisconsin

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 7:32 PM | Report abuse

The Muslim Brother Hood are like The Spanish Inquisition.

I am certain that The Muslim Brotherhood are working in the place that rotates Frank Gaffney's tires, and they have deliberately left them slightly out of balance, in order to rock Frank's world.

Gaffney sounds like a clinical paranoid, who needs to be treated with meds, and mental health counseling.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 7:34 PM | Report abuse

@DDAWD & Liam

Thanks for the reminder about statutory rape.

So again without snark, and I confess to ignorance about what is truly being suggested..is it the R's contention that if an underage girl consents to have sex with her stepfather that will be considered differently and so that prompted the need for the term "forcible rape" as opposed to enjoyable statutory rape.

Listen I get last night's debate on abortion and when does "human life begin" I understand the passion and disagreement on the subject....but rape? I just don't get it. And when an underage girl agrees to sex...well from a moral standpoint I do see the difference if we're talking about charging an 18 year old with statutory rape for having consensual sex with his 17 year old girlfriend...but I'm still not certain which fine hair "forcible rape" is designed to split. But again as I've frequently conceded to Q.B. I'm not an attorney I've never played one on TV either...I'm certainly no legal wiz...but really we're going to start splitting hairs on rape?

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 7:35 PM | Report abuse

The liberals are all pretty much purposely avoiding any rational evaluation of what Obama is doing.


Because the liberals have all lost confidence in Obama.

No one wants to defend Obama anymore.


Obama is soft on terrorism.


Obama is messing up our Foreign Policy in the Middle East


DEFEND HIM YOU LIBERALS


STOP TALKING ABOUT GARBAGE AND DEFEND YOU DUDE.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 7:36 PM | Report abuse


This is the LIST OF DEMOCRATS WHO ARE LOSING THEIR JOBS IN THE NEXT ELECTION

Because of the arrogance of Obama


Bill Nelson of Florida

Debbie Stabenow of Michigan

Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota

Claire McCaskill of Missouri

Jon Tester of Montana

Ben Nelson of Nebraska

Bob Menendez of New Jersey

Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico

Sherrod Brown of Ohio

Bob Casey, Jr. of Pennsylvania

Jim Webb of Virginia

Maria Cantwell of Washington

Joe Manchin of West Virginia

Herb Kohl of Wisconsin

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 7:40 PM | Report abuse

"I think you probably came to us when the Fix collapsed"

No. but thanks for your answer. Are there any current "leftwing nuts" commenting here?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 2, 2011 7:40 PM | Report abuse

""There's always statutory rape, which I'm sure is enjoyable, but I guess still isn't legally consensual.""

My oldest daughter's best friend became pregnant at 15 by a 24 year old man. It was consensual but no one ever claimed that at 15 she knew what the heck she was doing and at 9 years older he sure should have. She had the baby but honestly I'm not sure it was the best thing for her, it's been downhill ever since. That's not to say we don't love her son but some issues are just too complicated to define via legislation. I'm not pro abortion by any means but women, and girls even, need to have options available to them and until we're able to walk a mile in someone else's shoes, leave the decisions to those most affected by them.

Also, I grew up in the 60's, pre Roe v Wade and remember very well the criminalization and dangerous results of illegal abortions. That illegal clinic in PA, or wherever it was, was very reminiscent of those days, disgusting, sad, abusive and deadly. Sex happens, rape and incest happen, and unwanted pregnancies happen, and the more these decisions are pushed back into the shadows the worse the outcomes will become.

Posted by: lmsinca | February 2, 2011 7:42 PM | Report abuse

@Troll

". Are there any current "leftwing nuts" commenting here?"

You mean besides me? :-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 7:42 PM | Report abuse

I was thinking about abortion as a political issue. As Liam says, the practical result of GOP policy initiatives is to compel women to carry and bear children they don't want. But why? When human life begins is, for practical purposes, a political question and the consequence of deciding that a fetus is "alive" is that a woman must carry and bear a child she doesn't want. That is an uncivilized position. When you start to factor in particular circumstances regarding the pregnancy or the mother or the father such government compulsion becomes downright barbaric.

Posted by: wbgonne | February 2, 2011 7:44 PM | Report abuse

Can the liberals on this blog GUARANTEE us that Obama is not working with the Muslim Brotherhood?


The American People deserve a GUARANTEE


OR Obama should resign.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 7:45 PM | Report abuse

Rukidding,

As far as I can determine, for almost all Pro-Birthers; life begins at the moment that a sperm shakes hands with an egg, and life ends as soon as any of those newborns need any government expenditures to help provide food, clothing, housing, education, and proper medical care.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 7:48 PM | Report abuse

"Listen I get last night's debate on abortion and when does "human life begin" I understand the passion and disagreement on the subject....but rape? "

I've kind of stopped being surprised about what the GOP is willing to bicker over. I mean, they are in the middle of this huge pro-obesity campaign.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 7:50 PM | Report abuse

Number of the day: 7

Or rather, +7.2. That would be the current over/under number for President Obama's approval rating.

I'll weigh in on "forcible rape". Due to unfortunate terminology, consenting sexual relations between adolescents often is determined as rape. A 17 year old Atlanta boy was sentenced to ten years in prison for sex with his 15 year old girlfriend. Other cases include a 19 year old whose partner lied about age. So, yes, there is a difference between rape as the law sees it and "forcible rape".

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | February 2, 2011 7:52 PM | Report abuse

@lmsinca

Hear! Hear! This is why you ladies need to stick around. That was a sad story you told and "morally" not legally I think we probably share similar opinions about "consensual" "enjoyable" etc.

A 24 year old man is taking advantage of a 15 year old girl IMO. However a 16 year old boyfriend doing the same thing with his 15 year old girlfriend is simply making a horrible youthful mistake.

BTW This is another reason I can't forgive the Bubba even though Kevin has campaigned long and hard with me to free the Bubba.
Not only did he look directly into the camera and LIE to me personally, he was shooting fish in the barrel (perhaps a bad descriptor..no puns intended) when he took advantage of a young impressionable intern.
I get that legally Monica was just as culpable as Bubba...but really a mature man with the office of the Presidency and all the power and charisma that provides?

If Bubba had Jennifer Flowers back for a redux and when caught had simply told the truth...or in the context of Ken Starr's witch hunt simply said..."It's none of your freaking business you perv" I would have still been cool with the Bubba...but young interns...and lying..sorry Kevin..I'm still searching my heart and coming up empty of love for Bubba.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 7:53 PM | Report abuse

lmsinca

The reality is, if all the abortion clinics get shut down, the poor will resort to the back alley abortions by coat hangers, while the daughters of the wealthy will still fly off to some swank European spas, and have their abortions there.

In the past year, an eight year old girl in Brazil became pregnant. Her mother took her to a clinic and had an abortion procedure performed.

The local catholic bishop immediately excommunicated the mother.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 7:57 PM | Report abuse

"I have chosen to ignore his usual "just curious" gambit, since he will not stop always trying to reduce a grown man to childhood status, by only referring to him as "Barry". Accordingly, I have chosen to treat him as just another insincere right wing low life, who thinks he has found a very sly subliminal way to always call President Obama; Boy."

Thanks for sharing that with me Liam.  And rest assured, I'm almost always sincere. ;-) If you don't mind my asking, just what am I trying to do with my "just curious" "gambit?". I think I'm pretty up front with my (sincerely believed) rightwing nuttery.  Would it have helped to reduce the idea that it is a "gambit" if I'd have written that I don't think there are any "leftwing nuts" currently commenting?  Though I do think there are "leftwing nuts" in existence.

If you prefer, I will no longer direct my questions or responses specifically to you, or to what you've written.  Please though, keep up with the passionate and thoroughly thought provoking comments, I always look forward to reading them!

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 2, 2011 7:58 PM | Report abuse

Ims: "women, and girls even, need to have options available to them and until we're able to walk a mile in someone else's shoes, leave the decisions to those most affected by them."

To complicate it, the right is opposed to not only abortion, but also SCHIPP, healthcare access, WIC, funding for pre-schools, Head-Start and every other element of the social safety net that would help children conceived under less than ideal conditions any opportunity at a decent start in life. Pretty pathetic. Or maybe it's a matter of them seeing the wisdom in Ross Douthat's miserable article a few weeks back about the fall off in adoptable babies for infertile white couples due in part to Roe v. Wade.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/opinion/03douthat.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 2, 2011 8:02 PM | Report abuse

"they are in the middle of this huge pro-obesity campaign"

The Donut Party. Gov. Chris Chris at the lead on his sturdy white stead smiting the poor and humiliating the working man and liberating the oppressed rich. Just remember: Donuts Are Freedom. Health Care is Tyranny.

Posted by: wbgonne | February 2, 2011 8:04 PM | Report abuse

And also add abstinence only education as a marvelous righty idea...

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 2, 2011 8:05 PM | Report abuse

Can the liberals on this blog GUARANTEE us that Obama is not working with the Muslim Brotherhood?


The American People deserve a GUARANTEE


OR Obama should resign.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 8:05 PM | Report abuse

Yes, RFR, I will GUARANTEE that Obama is not working with the Muslim Brotherhood. He has, however, joined forces with the Discordian Society, The Servants of Cthulhu, The Gnomes of Zürich, and The Network.

Bonus points to anyone who gets the reference. I still have my copy.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | February 2, 2011 8:09 PM | Report abuse

Obama could just be following a policy of appeasement toward the Muslim Brotherhood.

We all know how dangerous this situation is.... except for Obama who is clueless.


It really is an outrage that Americans have to worry about the loyalty of the dude Obama


Obama is simply not taking proper care of Foreign Policy


The liberals should be desperate to get Obama to resign and move on.


Go ahead - stick with Obama for another two years. I wonder how big the democratic losses are going to be next time.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 8:09 PM | Report abuse

And get Bristol Palin to be the front person for abstinence...jeebus...you can't make this crap up...

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 2, 2011 8:11 PM | Report abuse

May I play the role of 12Bar for a moment?

"the practical result of GOP policy initiatives is to compel women to carry and bear children they don't want."

I'm honestly curious as to whether this really IS what would happen "practically", that is in real life?

I'm ashamed to confess in front of lmsinca and our other esteemed ladies, that I am largely ignorant of what happens in reality re abortion. I've watched Rachel Maddow enough to know there is a concerted effort by "some" looney toons to terrorize and intimidate women who are simply getting a LEGAL medical procedure. I find this abhorrent and a pox on both the R's and the D's for not enforcing the law and not attacking these domestic terrorists with the full force of the Gov't. Terrorism is terrorism...only the motivation is different.

Having said all of that...am I naive to believe that if Federal funding gets cut that there will be private charitable agencies and women's groups that will fill the gap of lost funding. I also know there is the fear that this is just more chipping away at a legally established right. I know the issue is far more complicated than the superficial level I am observing so anybody who knows what really happens today when a poor woman needs an abortion would do me a big favor by filling me in. Somebody serious please, not one of the extremist flamethrowers who lurk on this blog.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:11 PM | Report abuse

And also add abstinence only education as a marvelous righty idea...

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 2, 2011 8:05 PM

Which can be really effective, provided you are given the right instructions on how to practice it, by a Mother and Daughter who did not practice it.

The condensed version.

Don't do that!

You will be receiving my bill for $30K, for having received that lecture from me.

Of course; the other big promoters of sexual abstinence, have found their own unique way of practicing it, by raping altar boys.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:12 PM | Report abuse

This is the LIST OF DEMOCRATS WHO ARE LOSING THEIR JOBS IN THE NEXT ELECTION

Because of the arrogance of Obama


Bill Nelson of Florida

Debbie Stabenow of Michigan

Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota

Claire McCaskill of Missouri

Jon Tester of Montana

Ben Nelson of Nebraska

Bob Menendez of New Jersey

Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico

Sherrod Brown of Ohio

Bob Casey, Jr. of Pennsylvania

Jim Webb of Virginia

Maria Cantwell of Washington

Joe Manchin of West Virginia

Herb Kohl of Wisconsin

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 8:13 PM | Report abuse

sue

There's some kind of disconnect from reality going on, I swear. It's as if they live in a world where most women do not reside. I don't know how old you are but I'm old enough to have known women who've had both legal and illegal abortions, been raped, been infertile, lost children in childbirth, sent to unwed mother's homes and just about every other reproductive scenario imaginable. The idea that some prude, male or female, in DC should dictate black or white legislation to deal with these complicated issues is ludicrous to me.

Posted by: lmsinca | February 2, 2011 8:13 PM | Report abuse

@BB

"A 17 year old Atlanta boy was sentenced to ten years in prison for sex with his 15 year old girlfriend."

Yes but that poor kid was black...not sure about his girlfriend but probably white. There was no doubt (considering precedent set by law enforcement in prosecuting white teens for exactly the same offense) that this kid was not put in jail for rape, but rather for being black.

Fortunately the outcry was sooo loud that kid got out of prison long before his ten years were served...still an injustice but at least corrected eventually.

Remember we live in America..and certainly here in the heart of Dixie...black kids are guilty of rape...white kids are guilty of youthful mistakes...that GA case being a prime example.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:17 PM | Report abuse

Rand Paul stakes out a separate place in reallycrazyland...

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/02/rand-paul-gun-conspiracy/

Posted by: bernielatham | February 2, 2011 8:17 PM | Report abuse

The discussion last night/this morning was ridiculous. Apparently it is the Conservative position that the designation of a flatline EKG as death was done "without thought or logic"

Abortion discussions can be good and interesting, but you need people with a sense of nuance. Scott's problem is that he's never known anyone who has gotten an abortion and has no interest in doing so. His sense of the pondering people go through when thinking of the possibility is terribly misguided. People who are pondering having an abortion don't consider zygotes equal to a birthed baby. If they did, they wouldn't entertain the possibility of an abortion.

It's more about the potential for the person to have a life and about their own wishes to have a kid and about their own ability to raise a kid. As you progress through the fetal development, the human life issue becomes more of a concern. That's why something like 10% of abortions are conducted after the first trimester and it's estimated that <0.1% are third trimester. (I'm not sure how much Down Syndrome plays a role in these stats, but 90% of DS fetuses are aborted and you can't do the tests prior to the second trimester)

It's a good discussion to have and I do enjoy talking about it, but it's simply not a topic for Conservatives. You saw what happened with Scott. And he's one of the so-called "intelligent" ones. He goes and says that EEG is an arbitrary demarcator of life chosen "without thought or logic." Then goes on to stretch some analogy way too far and use it accuse me of saying I think people treat abortions the same as hangnails. (his own analogy equating zygotes with flowers notwithstanding).

Give me intelligent people to talk abortion with. Even conservatives make good people to talk with. Just not Conservatives.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 8:21 PM | Report abuse

Fairlington

What are you assets that you are willing to put up in order to back your guarantee???

Surely, the American People know perfectly well that the price of gasoline may go up as a result of this unrest.

IF the unrest spreads to Saudi Arabia and/or Yemen - then the risk is even higher.


Also, if the Muslim Brotherhood takes power in Egypt, terrorist incidents might be the result.

So are you standing to COMPENSATE AMERICANS for all these potential losses?


That is what a GUARANTEE is - you put up your assets, and if the price of gasoline goes up, you pay the difference.


So, lets see it Fairlington - get all your pals together and give us a GUARANTEE.


Same with health care, GUARANTEE the health care premiums. Obama said they were going down. The premiums went up, so ARE YOU STANDING TO PAY THE DIFFERENCE?

Liberals - GUARANTEE the country.

All your bull can walk.......

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 8:22 PM | Report abuse

It was the pro-abortion side that federalized the issue. And it's the big-government party that wants to entangle the federal government more and more into all those kinds of issues.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 2, 2011 8:22 PM | Report abuse

Remember we live in America..and certainly here in the heart of Dixie...black kids are guilty of rape...white kids are guilty of youthful mistakes...that GA case being a prime example.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:17 PM |

........................

Which reminded me of when the Republicans were working on impeaching Bill Clinton, for playing hide the cigar, and it came out that one of the biggest sanctimonous Republicans, Congressman Henry Hyde(R) got exposed for having cheated on his wife, with a married women, over several years;

Hyde said it was " a youthful indiscretion". The affair took place when he was in his mid forties.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:23 PM | Report abuse

Jeeeez - it's some sort of brain-munching virus. Here's a part of an email from Horowitz's Front Page...

"Those of you who have been watching Glenn Beck, and particularly those who watched last night’s show will see that he is bringing before an audience of millions the message we have been sending from these sites for nearly a decade — that the global Islamic jihad against the West has formed a working alliance with the secular socialist left both at home and abroad. This “unholy alliance” as we called it was first clearly visible in the anti-American demonstrations opposing the Iraq War. These were mislabled “anti-war” demonstrations by the general media. If they were truly anti-war demonstrations there would have been protests at the Iraq embassy calling on Saddam Hussein to honor the Gulf War truce agreement he had signed and the seventeen UN resolutions that attempted to enforce those agreements. But there was not one such demonstration. Not one..."

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/doubling-down-on-super-crazy.html

Posted by: bernielatham | February 2, 2011 8:25 PM | Report abuse

"Give me intelligent people to talk abortion with. Even conservatives make good people to talk with. Just not Conservatives."

You are the poster child for people who live in glass houses.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 2, 2011 8:27 PM | Report abuse


Fairlington

What are you assets that you are willing to put up in order to back your guarantee???

Surely, the American People know perfectly well that the price of gasoline may go up as a result of this unrest.

IF the unrest spreads to Saudi Arabia and/or Yemen - then the risk is even higher.


Also, if the Muslim Brotherhood takes power in Egypt, terrorist incidents might be the result.

So are you standing to COMPENSATE AMERICANS for all these potential losses?


That is what a GUARANTEE is - you put up your assets, and if the price of gasoline goes up, you pay the difference.


So, lets see it Fairlington - get all your pals together and give us a GUARANTEE.


Same with health care, GUARANTEE the health care premiums. Obama said they were going down. The premiums went up, so ARE YOU STANDING TO PAY THE DIFFERENCE?


Liberals - GUARANTEE the country.

All your bull can walk.......


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 8:28 PM | Report abuse

Yes, once again a conservative describes pro-choice as pro-abortion.

I'm out.

Posted by: lmsinca | February 2, 2011 8:28 PM | Report abuse

As I said, Forcible Rape was already defined on that thread (you guys don't even bother clicking on a link):

"any sex act that includes the sexual penetration of the body of another person by:
1. the use and/or threat of violence sufficient to cause grevious bodily harm or death,
2. physical and/or mental intimidation sufficient to cause a person of normal intelligence to submit to the assault,
3. deception
4. any sexual penetration of a person under the age of consent
or
5. engaging in sex acts with an insensable person.

otoh, "wishing that i had not agreed" to sex, "next day/week/month second thoughts", "what am i going to say to my husband/lover/boyfriend/girlfriend/mother/etc." and/or anything else of that sort is NOT "forcible rape" or any other sort of rape. = While "NO means NO" applies at the time of a sex act, it definitely does not apply hours/days/weeks/months later!
(sadly, about 25% of "rapes" reported to law enforcement authorities fit that description.)

Note: Most authorites on rape & "sexual assaults" believe that at least one third to one half of ACTUAL rapes & sexual assaults of other sorts are not reported directly to law enforcement.
(We LEOs usually find out about those crimes by accident and/or by investigation of some other event.)"

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 8:29 PM | Report abuse

What ever happened to HIPA?

Abortions are legal medical procedures, which are covered by the Medical Privacy Act, so why are so many Right Wingers so eager to invade any woman's privacy.

They sure love Big Intrusive Government, when it comes to trying to control women's lives, and personal health care decisions.

A woman's womb is her own, Right Wingers, so mind your own business, and stop acting like a bunch of Ayatollahs.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:30 PM | Report abuse

Well, a state can't pass an unconstitutional law either. Unless the ONLY argument against the individual mandate is the 10th Amendment, you can't reconcile a state being allowed to pass a law that the Fed Govt can't.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 8:31 PM | Report abuse

In a post titled "Nominate Her", Tomasky reflects on the possible consequences of the electoral disaster that Palin would represent...

"PPP's Tom Jensen says that if the GOP nominates Palin, and circumstances are more or less as they are now (Obama at 50, 51%), the only safe Republican states would be ones John McCain won by 20 points or more. In other words, she'd win Idaho, Oklahoma, Utah, Arkansas, Louisiana, Alabama, and probably eke out a few more, maybe reaching 100 electoral votes, if she managed to hold Texas, where man once walked with dinosaur.

I would actually like having a Republican Party that was tethered to the same planet as the rest of us. Conservative, fine, but not hostile to basic facts and science and not so wrapped up in its self-righteous rhetorical excitations. A Republican Party de-Becked and de-Limbaughed, basically. It could be just as conservative on paper, but it would dispense with some of the hostility to earth logic. That would be a fine Republican Party to deal with. Maybe sending Palin into battle and getting tarred would finally move the party in that direction.

But since they're unlikely to do that, I am left wondering, as I often do, how long it will take for the GOP to move back to where it was, say, in 1985. At the time, that seemed pretty conservative to me. Now, they'd excommunicate that vintage as too wishy-washy."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2011/feb/02/barack-obama-sarahpalin-slaughter

Amen.

Posted by: bernielatham | February 2, 2011 8:32 PM | Report abuse

Remember we live in America..and certainly here in the heart of Dixie...black kids are guilty of rape...white kids are guilty of youthful mistakes...that GA case being a prime example.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:17 PM |

...............................

Rand has that thousand mile stare in his eyes.

Another thing he should self certify.

Did you know that Rand Paul is:

A self-certified Octo Momologist?

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:37 PM | Report abuse

@Q.B.

At the risk of harming our recent detente I'm afraid I have to side with lmsinca on this one. Pro life does not equal pro Abortion. It's really a heinous word trick.
I know many pro choice people who abhor abortion...they are simply pro choice.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming it's a simple typo or maybe lack of sensitivity...I hope..but you are an attorney with a healthy respect for language and surely you can see how insulting it is to refer to a pro choice person as being pro abortion. Just sayin' :-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:39 PM | Report abuse

"Which reminded me of when the Republicans were working on impeaching Bill Clinton, for playing hide the cigar,"

I don't doubt that that's what you "remember," but it isn't what happened. Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice. He was sued by Paula Jones for sexual harassment (later settled for $850k) and in the course of that case committed perjury and obstruction.

A federal judge fined him for contempt and found that he intentionally lied under oath. He lost is law license.

He brought it all on himself by serial sexual harassment and predation, and lying about it, even under oath.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 2, 2011 8:40 PM | Report abuse

I have it on good authority that President Obama has been working with The Muslim Brotherhood, to put itching powder in Frank Gaffney's knickers.

I bet that is why he is always getting them in a bunch.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:41 PM | Report abuse

Even PPP's Tom Jensen would admit that Palin's chances increase dramatically if wbgonne kills Obama in October, 2012.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 8:42 PM | Report abuse

I am prolife so that puts my personal moral code in conflict with a lot on this blog.

I remember when girls & women did have back alley abortions and some died as a result. That was why abortion was legalized--not to encourage abortion, but to make the abortions that occur safe for the mother. I remember that time, and by God, it did happen. I don't endorse abortion and I would not have one, but I realize that not everyone shares my moral code. It is not up to me to judge anyone else as I have enough of a hard time living up to my own code.

As lms said, there are so many complications to how this works in real life that to have a bunch of male (mostly) legislators dictating it is outrageous to me also.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 2, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

Pro-Lifers do not even mean that. They are just Pro-Birth, and most of them, couldn't care less about making sure that the babies, they insisted on bringing into this world, are provided for, after they are born.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

"Even PPP's Tom Jensen would admit that Palin's chances increase dramatically if wbgonne kills Obama in October, 2012."

Sometimes I find the intellectual level and class of some posters to be simply mind boggling. Who brings such hate into this world? Again Mr T had it right.."Pity the fool".

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:47 PM | Report abuse

I would also argue that, for those like 12BarBlues, it's a convenient cover story and their version of "Pro-Life" does indeed equal pro Abortion. More Bishops should be ex-communicating their wayward flock.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 8:49 PM | Report abuse

Toon Town Lawyer, you can pretend to write any cartoon version of the script that suits you. The bottom line is; Ken Starr was appointed to look into the White Water claims, and he ended getting nothing that he could charge Bill Clinton with. So he ended up having big Linda taping conversations with Monica, in order to set up Bill Clinton in a perjury trap about his sexual behavior, which had nothing to do with the White Water Investigation, which Ken Starr had been appointed to lead.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:49 PM | Report abuse

"I would actually like having a Republican Party that was tethered to the same planet as the rest of us. Conservative, fine, but not hostile to basic facts and science and not so wrapped up in its self-righteous rhetorical excitations. A Republican Party de-Becked and de-Limbaughed, basically. It could be just as conservative on paper, but it would dispense with some of the hostility to earth logic. That would be a fine Republican Party to deal with. Maybe sending Palin into battle and getting tarred would finally move the party in that direction."

What, specifically, are the "basic facts and science" as well as the "self-righteous rhetorical excitations" that, if removed(?), would return the party to 1985?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 2, 2011 8:49 PM | Report abuse

@12Bar....You rock! You have described the exact position of my sister and my niece.

They abhor abortion but they don't believe it's their right to inflict their views on others in such a very personal issue. So even though they personally are against abortion they technically are pro choice.

So when some thoughtless MAN calls them pro abortion...they'd probably react with something less sanguine than lmsinca's I'm out of here...something more along the lines of "kiss my rosy red Irish arse".

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:52 PM | Report abuse

Pro-choice is pro-abortion

If you are against abortion, you are against abortion


Is that what you tell youself?


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 8:53 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues position is sorta like someone during WWII claiming she is anti-Hitler but not wanting anything done to stop Hitler.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 8:54 PM | Report abuse

I would prefer that Abortions be rare but legal. No women or young girl should be forced to deliver the child of a rapist, or because of incest.

That would be like molesting the victim, all over again.

This bumper sticker should be on every car.

Contraception And Sex Ed. Preempt Abortions.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:56 PM | Report abuse

@Troll


Could we start with the SCIENTIFIC study of Evolution versus the RELIGIOUS study of Creative Design?

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Liam-still would also demand that any rapist's BORN children be killed at the same time.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 9:01 PM | Report abuse

I'm with lmsinca...it seems the morons have taken over and I'm tired of scrolling.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 9:03 PM | Report abuse

"What, specifically, are the "basic facts and science" as well as the "self-righteous rhetorical excitations" that, if removed(?), would return the party to 1985?"

How about teh mathz, for starters? This nonsense about revenue not having an effect on the deficit has got to be embarrassing.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 9:05 PM | Report abuse

Rukidding.

Try this thought experiment;

Would Creationists on murder trial jury panels vote to convict some one and sentence them to be executed on the basis that his DNA evidence was all over the crime scene, and it could not be the DNA of any other person.

Do you get what I am driving at; DNA can identify each individual and distinguish them from their own closest relatives.

Think about that for a moment. DNA is the clearest proof possible that evolution is an ongoing process, through each person that is born.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:06 PM | Report abuse

ruk, can't you get the troll hunter?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 9:06 PM | Report abuse

Ruk,

Is Bernie (or you) writing that some religious conservatives rejection or doubts about the theory of evolution is a new aspect to the Republican coalition? In 1985' wasn't Jerry Falwell a rather prominent member of the apparantly last acceptable Republican coalition.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 2, 2011 9:06 PM | Report abuse

Ruk,

Is Bernie (or you) writing that some religious conservatives rejection or doubts about the theory of evolution is a new aspect to the Republican coalition? In 1985' wasn't Jerry Falwell a rather prominent member of the apparantly last acceptable Republican coalition.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 2, 2011 9:07 PM | Report abuse

Ims,

I'm 54, widowed, and I don't have any children. I got pregnant once (oops!) when I was 23, but miscarried very early on. It was a mix of grief and relief when that happened because I was not married and had not yet told my parents about my "problem." My BF was not anxious to get married, and looking back, I don't know that I was either. Yet, there was a big sadness that took a long time to get passed it.

When I was 29, I had some health problems that left me mostly infertile. Nowadays, a woman with my condition would have a decent chance to conceive with intense medical intervention, but I'm not sure that would have been an option I would have chosen for myself, if I had that opportunity.

I went through 12 years of Catholic school. In the 8th grade (1969), the girls in my class were taken on a field trip to the local unwed mothers' home run by the nuns from the order that taught at my school. It was a scare tactic, no doubt about it, and there was much shame involved. It was a horrible experience. I remember hearing about (illegal) abortions when I was a young teen. It was very frightening. We also had a non-Catholic neighbor who had to have an abortion to save her life. It was a quite a scandal, lots of gossip.

So, yes, like you, I've seen a lot of the escape and disconnect from women's reality, and lived through some of it personally. It's amazing, frustrating, and mostly, sad.

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 2, 2011 9:08 PM | Report abuse

From 12 Bar: "As lms said, there are so many complications to how this works in real life that to have a bunch of male (mostly) legislators dictating it is outrageous to me also."

This has always been my exact view.

(And of course there's the old Gloria Steinem line that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.)

Posted by: AllButCertain | February 2, 2011 9:10 PM | Report abuse

This is what I support, and not anything that some scumbag liars claim I am for:

I would prefer that Abortions be rare but legal. No women or young girl should be forced to deliver the child of a rapist, or because of incest.

That would be like molesting the victim, all over again.

This bumper sticker should be on every car.

Contraception And Sex Ed. Preempt Abortions.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:10 PM | Report abuse

Whoops, double post. Plus, I forgot to add, that Falwell was a literalist vis a vis the Bible and would not have been a believer in the theory of evolution.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 2, 2011 9:14 PM | Report abuse

Paula Jones. Why did Clinton answer in that case? A federal default judgment would have been entered against him for nominal damages as she admittedly had no proof of employment damages.

Having answered, he was fair game on a deposition. Depositions are "discovery" tools and in no way limited to relevant evidence. That is, lawyers use depositions for many purposes, including development through investigation of lines of inquiry that might prove useful.

The alleged Jones BJ preceded the Lewinsky BJ by several years. While prior similar acts may be relevant evidence at trial subsequent acts are generally not. In other words, the Lewinsky BJ could not have come into the trial of the Jones alleged BJ.

That means that under the federal criminal law at the time Clinton was guilty of false swearing, a misdemeanor, not perjury, a felony. A fine point, as it was still a technical ground for impeachment.

I understand that Clinton's lawyers wanted him to permit the default, thereby avoiding the deposition and a lot of hooha. Too bad; people should listen to their lawyers about stuff like this.

Also, I would have had my card jerked or suspended for lying under oath and I was glad WJC was not treated better than I in that respect.

One totally emotional response I had: my eldest daughter was intern age at the time. I was disgusted and wanted him to resign.

Al Gore probably would have been Prez for ten years.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 2, 2011 9:15 PM | Report abuse

ruk,

I'm not terribly impressed with people's oversenstivity to "pro-abortion."

First, whatever one thinks of people who describe themselves as "pro-choice but personally opposed" or the like, a large segment of the "pro-choice" crowd in fact is quite clearly "pro-abortion." The movement has been led by fanatics who treat abortion -- of every kind and at every stage, including partial birth -- not only as a positive but as something like a sacrament. This culture has resulted in repeated abortion used effectively as a form of birth control for many women. And this is the culture that fanatically tries to prevent people from knowing the truth about abortion and labels opponents "anti-choice" among other things (like "barbaric," seen above).

Second, the terminology "outrage" is virtually always selective. There is none, for example, against Liam and his stupid use of "Pro-Birth," with the explanation that pro-lifers only want babies born and then don't care about them. lmsinca herself scorns prolifers as "prudes in DC" etc. and then leaves in a huff.

I've personally never met a pro-choicer who abhors abortion. I'm not sure that's even possible. But in any event, to vociferously argue the "pro-choice" position of someone like lms, she has to believe that abortion is a good, postive "choice" that some women need to and should "choose." Unless you are going to tell me that she (using her as the example) is adamantly pro-choice but believes no woman should have an abortion, and that quite clearly isn't the case.

It's not something I'm particularly intersted in fighting over. But it is a case where I sense, rightly or wrongly, defensiveness in the extreme reactions people have.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 2, 2011 9:18 PM | Report abuse

Joni Mitchell-The Magdalene Laundries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU1Zymqlhko

The girls who got pregnant were sent away to work their fingers to bone, for no pay, and no lives. The boys who impregnated them got off scott free.

Which reminded me of the old Benny Hill line:

"I spent the last couple of years in a home for unwed fathers" Benny Hill

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:18 PM | Report abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubJ011RYy-I

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Actually, I think Jones alleged she was propositioned, not that she gave a BJ.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 2, 2011 9:24 PM | Report abuse

Reconciliation was not legitimate - it was a subversion of democracy.


Reconciliation was never meant to be utilized for major social legislation

Sorry folks, but the liberals lose this battle. At this point the liberals are hanging on by the thin thread of democratic Senators who are certain to lose re-election.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 2, 2011 9:24 PM | Report abuse

I confess to ignorance

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 7:35 PM
======================================

It takes character to make an admission like that. I knew you had it in you. Too bad Liam can't step up and admit that he's an imbecile.

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:25 PM | Report abuse

"Toon Town Lawyer, you can pretend to write any cartoon version of the script that suits you. The bottom line is; Ken Starr was appointed to look into the White Water claims, and he ended getting nothing that he could charge Bill Clinton with. So he ended up having big Linda taping conversations with Monica, in order to set up Bill Clinton in a perjury trap about his sexual behavior, which had nothing to do with the White Water Investigation, which Ken Starr had been appointed to lead."

Liam treats everyone to more Cracked History.

The perjury (false swearing, per Mark) was in a deposition in Paula Jones' lawsuit, bonehead. Susan Weber was the judge in that case. SHE found that Clinton lied under oath.

Linda Tripp made her own recordings of conversations with ML. It was brought to Starr, and he was authorized to investigate by Janet Reno.

Clinton's false testimony had NOTHING to do with any "perjury trap" set up by Starr.

Good grief you are such a liar.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 2, 2011 9:29 PM | Report abuse

this kid was not put in jail for rape, but rather for being black.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:17 PM

======================================

According to the lefty loons, all black prisoners are in prison because they're black. None are guilty of anything. Maybe RUK can find a spot in the Nation of Islam or the New Black Panthers.

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:30 PM | Report abuse

Once again, Brigade demonstrates that he is Plumline's lobotomized version of Nelson Muntz.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:30 PM | Report abuse

"Actually, I think Jones alleged she was propositioned, not that she gave a BJ."

That is correct. In the Peabody Hotel in Little Rock, I believe.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 2, 2011 9:32 PM | Report abuse

Congressman Henry Hyde(R) got exposed for having cheated on his wife, with a married women, over several years;

Hyde said it was " a youthful indiscretion". The affair took place when he was in his mid forties.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:23 PM
===================================

As RUK can tell you, it wouldn't have been an issue if Hyde hadn't been black. Oh wait . . .

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:33 PM | Report abuse

A woman's womb is her own, Right Wingers, so mind your own business, and stop acting like a bunch of Ayatollahs.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:30 PM
========================================

And unborn child resides in the womb. It is not part of the womb. Bozo.

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Actually, I think Jones alleged she was propositioned, not that she gave a BJ.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 2, 2011 9:24 PM
....................

My recollection of her claim was that she was invited up to his room, and when she was in the room, he exposed himself to her.

I also recall the Republicans assigning one of their operatives,(Susan Carpenter-McMillan) to use Paula to score political points against Clinton.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Pro life does not equal pro Abortion. It's really a heinous word trick.
I know many pro choice people who abhor abortion...they are simply pro choice.

surely you can see how insulting it is to refer to a pro choice person as being pro abortion. Just sayin' :-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:39 PM
========================================

Many in the old Confederacy weren't pro-slavery either. They were just pro choice.

Many of your old Democratic Dixiecrats weren't racists either. They just wanted the right to choose whether or not to serve blacks.

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:40 PM | Report abuse

The Republicans were willing to try anything to get the Clintons. I recall them holding a hearing on the death of Vince Foster, and one of the Republican Congressmen asked the investigators, if they might have found a blonde hair on the remains.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:41 PM | Report abuse

OMG! Hysterical. I can't wait to see what Jon Stewart does with this...

Glenn Beck's guide to what's happening in Egypt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7GPPpsw6g

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 2, 2011 9:42 PM | Report abuse

Pro-Lifers do not even mean that. They are just Pro-Birth, and most of them, couldn't care less about making sure that the babies, they insisted on bringing into this world, are provided for, after they are born.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:44 PM
=======================================

Most of them? Have you taken a poll? Any stats to back up your blather? It's probably time you grabbed Ruby and the bottle and hit the sheets.

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:43 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD:

""Apparently it is the Conservative position that the designation of a flatline EKG as death was done "without thought or logic"""

Naturally, you either misunderstood or are deliberately mischaracterizing. I suggested that using the presence of brainwaves to define the biological start of human life was arbitrary and without logic. And I asked you a question related to this which you have notably not shown the courage to answer: Is it your position that in the absence of brainwaves that a human zygote is “dead”?

""Scott's problem is that he's never known anyone who has gotten an abortion and has no interest in doing so.""

Apparently you missed the post in which I talked about the person whom I helped get an abortion. Or you are lying. Posters familiar with your method here can make the call.

""Then goes on to stretch some analogy way too far and use it accuse me of saying I think people treat abortions the same as hangnails.""

No, I accused cao of doing so, and he did.

I accused you of viewing abortion as a morally trivial event. In response to your objection, I posed a question to you which, again, you have shown neither the intellectual honesty or courage to answer. (To refresh your memory: If, as you have expressed, a zygote/embryo/fetus is not a human life, why wouldn't abortion be a morally trivial act akin to ridding oneself of a hangnail? )

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 2, 2011 9:45 PM | Report abuse

So he ended up having big Linda taping conversations with Monica, in order to set up Bill Clinton in a perjury trap about his sexual behavior, which had nothing to do with the White Water Investigation, which Ken Starr had been appointed to lead.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 8:49 PM
========================================

Give it up old boy. Quarterback got the best of you again.

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:45 PM | Report abuse

One of The Onion's great headlines.

"Ben Roethlisberger One Win Away From Being Good Person

After being accused of sexual assault twice in three years, Ben Roethlisberger can fully redeem himself by winning Super Bowl XLV."

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:48 PM | Report abuse

They abhor abortion but they don't believe it's their right to inflict their views on others in such a very personal issue. So even though they personally are against abortion they technically are pro choice.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 8:52 PM
==========================================

Exactly the same position the South took regarding slavery. Pro choice. Enslaving people or murdering viable unborn children. Not much moral difference.

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:48 PM | Report abuse

@12Bar...lmsinca...sue...ABC...

I go off to bed feeling badly. Honestly I'm ashamed to be a man this evening. Would that I could apologize to all of you ladies for the group of pompous know it all arseholes who are so arrogant they presume to lecture everybody else on THEIR narrow view of right and wrong. You just have to consider the source. Some of these people are not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier...I would like to be able to say I feel your pain but that would be arrogant on my part because I don't have a vagina and ovaries...I will say I DO understand your frustration. I feel the same way about trying to tell DDAWD I feel his pain when it comes to racism...that is absurd...I can understand his pain but I'm not black and so it would be just as arrogant for me to compare any of my experiences to his other than to say I understand even if I can't feel....and I could say the same thing to Cao...I'm not gay and so I can't feel what being gay in America meant to him...but I've certainly had enough gay friends to at least understand.

And so ladies...my apologies...I can't really know how you feel..but I can imagine and it's truly sad.

Sometimes I come to this blog and learn really cool stuff...other times I come here and learn just how much hate and vitriol some people have pent up inside of them...just how much fear...the NEED to enforce THEIR viewpoint on others...the arrogance, and the ignorance, are sometimes simply overwhelming.

Good night all, and good luck Egyptians...we are with you in spirit.
Apparently the fight is getting closer to a climax and Maddow and Engel are doing a spectacular job of covering this as it is happening...and of course Engel speaks Arabic and so he is translating what they are chanting.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 2, 2011 9:52 PM | Report abuse

Once again, Brigade demonstrates that he is Plumline's lobotomized version of Nelson Muntz.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 2, 2011 9:30 PM |
=====================================

Once again, Liam demonstrates that once he's gotten his daily news fix from Comedy Central, he's ready for highbrow entertainment---the Simpsons. Then he grabs Ruby, a bottle of cheap liquor, and puts "Little White Duck" on the stereo.

Posted by: Brigade | February 2, 2011 9:54 PM | Report abuse

12Bar:

""I don't endorse abortion and I would not have one, but I realize that not everyone shares my moral code.""

Again, I ask this in good faith:

Is it your belief that the moral code to which you subscribe does not apply to people who do not also subscribe to it? That is, for example, is it your belief that a moral injunction against, say, enslaving blacks applies only to those who accept the moral injunction, and that those who do not believe it is wrong to enslave blacks are not in fact doing anything wrong if they do enslave blacks simply by virtue of their lack of belief that is it wrong?

I am not being facetious or flippant. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that you are a Christian, and frankly the type of moral relativism implied by your statement above seems entirely inconsistent with Christian theology (or, for that matter, any coherent understanding of morality at all), which accepts as a fundamental truth the existence of an objective, universal morality.

Please clarify, if you would.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 2, 2011 10:00 PM | Report abuse

"Apparently you missed the post in which I talked about the person whom I helped get an abortion"

No, I read it. That was a straight up lie. People who understand the motives for abortion simply do not say the things you say.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 10:01 PM | Report abuse

Ah, RFR, I'm so sad that you missed the joke. The reference is to Illuminati, an incredible game from Steve Jackson.

So I'll make my guarantee good. I will mail my copy of Illuminati (with all the expansion sets!) to anyone who is willing to put up their address. The condition is that there is a credible report of negotiations between the Obama administration and the MB. Note: right wing bloggers and any of Glen, Rush, or Sean does not qualify.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | February 2, 2011 10:02 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD:

""That was a straight up lie.""

You really are a fool.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 2, 2011 10:09 PM | Report abuse

ruk:

""Honestly I'm ashamed to be a man this evening.""

I'm ashamed that you are a man, too.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 2, 2011 10:10 PM | Report abuse

ruk:

""...the group of pompous know it all arseholes who are so arrogant they presume to lecture everybody else on THEIR narrow view of right and wrong. ""

Heaven knows that you would never, ever, lecture anyone on your narrow view of right and wrong. I mean, it's not like you would ever accuse someone of being "heartless" or immoral simply because they disagreed with you on something like health care reform or anything, right?

You really, really need to get a sense of self-awareness, ruk.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 2, 2011 10:16 PM | Report abuse

"You really are a fool. "

Coming from the guy who doesn't believe in evolution, thinks revenue has no effect on deficits, and thinks EEGs are an arbitrary designation of survival.

I'll take it.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 10:17 PM | Report abuse

I'll take that on, Scott. In my case, that means that I'm uncertain about "when life begins". I assume you know a bit about biology. A fertilized egg has a less than 50/50 chance to result in a baby carried to term. Most pregnancies wind up as late periods. There is a technical term--a chemical pregnancy. The test will register positive and is followed by a late period.

In my own case, we lost a potential child at about three months. That first ultrasound at around three months indicated that growth had stopped a few weeks earlier. My guess is that there was a severe genetic abnormality that precluded development of major organs. Nature has abortion built into it as a way of protecting the mother and future children. We just call it miscarriage.

So, don't preach to me or anyone else. I know about life and death. And that a pregnancy is far from a living baby.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | February 2, 2011 10:20 PM | Report abuse

A fertilized egg actually has a 100% chance of dying some day.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 10:27 PM | Report abuse

"No, I read it. That was a straight up lie. People who understand the motives for abortion simply do not say the things you say."

Hard to say whether the stupidity or the bad faith of this statement is greater. Why I seldom read this clown's comments any more.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 2, 2011 10:32 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD thinks that knowing about evolution, revenue vs. deficits, and EEGs grants someone the wisdom to know whether another person typing on a blog really helped pay for his high school friend's abortion or not. It's clear that DDAWD does not know what the word "fool" means.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 10:35 PM | Report abuse

But claw gives us a living illustration of the word.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | February 2, 2011 10:38 PM | Report abuse

Fairlington:

""So, don't preach to me or anyone else."

What, precisely, did you interpret as "preaching"?

""I know about life and death.""

That makes two of us.

""And that a pregnancy is far from a living baby.""

What is it? Just because an embryo stops growing doesn't mean it wasn't a life before it, er, stopped living.

Look, as I mentioned to Bernie yesterday, it is not my intent to condemn anyone who has gotten or contemplated getting an abortion. I am simply objecting to the rationalization that an unborn, er, baby (what term could I use that wouldn't beg the question?) is not a human life. Of course it is. If you (or anyone) want to justify its destruction on the grounds that it doesn't have brainwaves, or that it doesn't suffer pain, or whatever, then have at it. But to proclaim that it isn't a human life is just, forgive me, stupid. If the product of human reproduction (get it? REproduction?) is not another human, then what in the world is it?

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 2, 2011 10:49 PM | Report abuse

Great...screwed up formatting. Should have looked like this:

Fairlington:

""So, don't preach to me or anyone else.""

What, precisely, did you interpret as "preaching"?

""I know about life and death.""

That makes two of us.

""And that a pregnancy is far from a living baby.""

What is it? Just because an embryo stops growing doesn't mean it wasn't a life before it, er, stopped living.

Look, as I mentioned to Bernie yesterday, it is not my intent to condemn anyone who has gotten or contemplated getting an abortion. I am simply objecting to the rationalization that an unborn, er, baby (what term could I use that wouldn't beg the question?) is not a human life. Of course it is. If you (or anyone) want to justify its destruction on the grounds that it doesn't have brainwaves, or that it doesn't suffer pain, or whatever, then have at it. But to proclaim that it isn't a human life is just, forgive me, stupid. If the product of human reproduction (get it? REproduction?) is not another human, then what in the world is it?

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 2, 2011 10:53 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for that, BB. Sorry to hear about it, though.

This is such a complex issue and unfortunately it becomes bogged down in oversimplistic language. Nothing in life really ever is.

Especially buckyballs.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 10:54 PM | Report abuse

qb:

""Hard to say whether the stupidity or the bad faith of this statement is greater. Why I seldom read this clown's comments any more.""

You really have to wonder what motivates people like him.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 2, 2011 11:05 PM | Report abuse

"Look, as I mentioned to Bernie yesterday, it is not my intent to condemn anyone who has gotten or contemplated getting an abortion. I am simply objecting to the rationalization that an unborn, er, baby (what term could I use that wouldn't beg the question?) is not a human life. Of course it is. If you (or anyone) want to justify its destruction on the grounds that it doesn't have brainwaves, or that it doesn't suffer pain, or whatever, then have at it. But to proclaim that it isn't a human life is just, forgive me, stupid. If the product of human reproduction (get it? REproduction?) is not another human, then what in the world is it?"

The problem with this is that someone could make the argument that by this definition, lots of things are human life. Hell, by this definition, even a dead person is alive.

And then you would go and tell that person that he thinks all people take a cavalier attitude towards abortion.

Everyone says you're an intelligent person, so I'm sure that you can see the idiocy of trying to have a conversation with someone like you.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 11:05 PM | Report abuse

Very funny, FairlingtonBlade.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 11:15 PM | Report abuse

Did anyone watch Cake Boss on Monday where Buddy sees the ultrasound of his baby?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 11:33 PM | Report abuse

Would that I could apologize to all of you ladies for the group of pompous know it all arseholes who are so arrogant they presume to lecture everybody else on THEIR narrow view of right and wrong. You just have to consider the source.
--------------------------------------------------------------
ruk,

Don't worry about it. I learned a long time ago that in problems of pregnancy women are pretty much on their own. They figure it out, and unfortunately some of them can't figure it out, and have abortions. Sad, but true, and the other women on this blog know what I'm saying is true.

@scott,

I don't remember exactly what kind of argument you want to have, but I'm not going there. My moral code is mine and it is private. I don't believe that preaching to some woman about abortion accomplishes anything. Let me tell her about my life and my choices and that walk I walked and maybe that will give her courage. I'm not into crime and punishment. That's for God, they say, but I swear I think God is more understanding.

I've been prochoice my whole life, never anything else. I never had an abortion--in fact I was advised to abort my child because of severe rh disease but I did not, and I paid the price because of that. So, I walk the walk. So don't preach to me and I won't preach to you. Deal?

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 2, 2011 11:34 PM | Report abuse

Whooooops. Meant to write: I've been prolife my whole life.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 2, 2011 11:35 PM | Report abuse

http://marcel-oehler.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1991/03/19910306.gif

The Conservative approach to math and the CBO.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 2, 2011 11:46 PM | Report abuse

"I've been prochoice my whole life, never anything else."

Yeah, whoops.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 2, 2011 11:57 PM | Report abuse

So, claw, are you going to understand what I meant? Or are you going to attack me for a mistype?

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 3, 2011 12:02 AM | Report abuse

Uh huh, sure. Where's Shrink2 when you need him?

Are you going to understand what I meant about you really being pro-abortion?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 3, 2011 12:19 AM | Report abuse

Are you going to understand what I meant about you really being pro-abortion?
--------------------------------------------------
You are free to judge as you judge best.

I've walked the walk which is more than you have.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 3, 2011 12:23 AM | Report abuse

Now who's judging?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 3, 2011 12:30 AM | Report abuse

Scott,

"""So, don't preach to me or anyone else.""

What, precisely, did you interpret as "preaching"?

""I know about life and death.""

That makes two of us."


How silly of you. It's always the case that only prochoice people "really" know about these things, and that only non-prochoice (how's that for pc?) "preach."

The way this works is that whatever "choice" a woman makes is by definition right (a tautology), and is a matter unknowable to anyone else. If you don't accept that, you are authoritarian and misogynistic.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 3, 2011 6:36 AM | Report abuse

@DD:
"The problem with this is that someone could make the argument that by this definition, lots of things are human life. Hell, by this definition, even a dead person is alive."

Yes, someone could indeed make that argument; to make it though, they'd have to be kind of, uh, special.

Posted by: tao9 | February 3, 2011 6:41 AM | Report abuse

12Bar:

""I don't remember what kind of argument you want to have.""

That is probably because I'm not looking for an argument. And I am not suggesting that you should preach to anyone. I just want to understand your thinking.

Specifically, I want to know if you believe in an objective, universal morality. Christian theology posits just that, so I have always assumed that you do. But when you say things like "my moral code is mine and it is private", it suggests to me that perhaps you do not.

However, maybe it is the case that you believe in an objective, universal morality, but that you cannot be entirely certain of its contents. Is that what you mean when you say that "crime and punishment" is "for God", not you, and when you speak of your own "private" morality? That is, there does exist a universal standard of right and wrong, as adjudicated by God, and that your "private" morality is your own, perhaps imperfect, attempt to understand that standard. Is this accurate?

Again, despite your obvious suspicions, I am asking entirely in good faith. I am not trying to trap or trick you. For the record, what I suggest above, that there exists some objective, universal morality but that its contents are not entirely certain, is precisely what I think. I just don't attribute anything to God.

""So don't preach to me...""

Have I said something that you consider to be "preaching"?

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 3, 2011 7:06 AM | Report abuse

@ruk: re: the gay Republican, my advice is run screaming with both ears covered, Those people are warped, and he'll never get anywhere because he has 4-6 hours of every waking day reserved for justifying himself. I've met a few in person and more online. They're the most conflicted people walking the earth.

Re: abortion. I posted a few biology-based questions to Scott. He ignored them. Nice to see BB also knows that over half of fertilized embryos don't develop. Late miscarriages indeed.

Now, according to the absolutist extremity of uh people like JakeD / claw, we have a responsibility to these *children*. Just because they'll develop into unbagged internal organs lacking cerebrums is no excuse to go the "convenient" route and allow them to be menstruated. Developmental defects are just an excuse to murder babies. If Sarah Palin had the courage to bring Trig to term then so should any woman whose embryo is one of the 70% that get sloughed out.

It's murder.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 7:07 AM | Report abuse

tao:

""to make it though, they'd have to be kind of, uh, special.""

Heh.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 3, 2011 7:08 AM | Report abuse

"objective universal morality, " one that has no reliance on the context or situation? Do you really believe in that idea, Scott?

That's nuts. Morality isn't arithmetic. I'd stick to snark if I were you, whe it comes to morality you're a Kohlberg level one.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 7:12 AM | Report abuse

I really can not believe that there is ZERO honest evaluation of Obama from the liberals.

This is completely abnormal.

The liberals are so afraid that Obama is going to come up sub-par in any evaluation discussion - that they avoid the subject completely.

It is a weakness.


Obama is surrounded by a bunch of yes-men, it is pathetic how far down that weakness goes.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 7:17 AM | Report abuse

Sorry but no matter how I try I just can't see any moral issue in aborting something with less of a brain than a roundworm. When a human being is murdered there is an individual consciousness, one with memory and a unique experience of life, not merely the future potential for one.

To say that so something with less mind than an invertebrate is murder able because it has human DNA is pure speciesism.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 7:20 AM | Report abuse

Cao

You are a complete idiot Why do you keep proving it?

I guess it is because you are an idiot


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 7:38 AM | Report abuse

"Yes, someone could indeed make that argument; to make it though, they'd have to be kind of, uh, special."

Well, Scott IS the smartest Conservative ever.

Tao, teach me how to make fun of someone without portraying fear. I REALLY want to make fun of Sar...I mean Barack Obama. I just want to do it in a way that doesn't make it seem I'm cowering in fear of her...I mean him. I thought I had this English thing mastered, but clearly not. Teach me, please!

Posted by: DDAWD | February 3, 2011 7:42 AM | Report abuse

Cao

You have no morality


What adult male - who says he is gay - moves to a communist country - if not for the little boys?


Seriously - you are a twisted sick person.

AND yet, all the criticisms you have of the United States, you appear completely unaware that on every account, Vietnam is worse.


12BarBlues did a horrible, obnoxious, vicious thing by emailing you and asking you to come to this blog.

She is SOLELY responsible for the plague that is you.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 7:43 AM | Report abuse

RainForestRising, I agree with that.

caothien9, no one has ever argued that a natural miscarriage should be considered murder. Even born children die from natural causes.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 3, 2011 7:57 AM | Report abuse

No matter how the Nazis tried, they just couldn't see any moral issue in aborting something with less than blonde hair and blue eyes; alternatively, they were just following orders. Didn't work at Nuremberg either.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 3, 2011 8:07 AM | Report abuse


Cao

You have no morality


What adult male - who says he is gay - moves to a communist country in Southeast Asia - if not for the little boys?


Seriously - you are a twisted sick person.

AND yet, all the criticisms you have of the United States, you appear completely unaware that on every account, Vietnam is worse.


12BarBlues did a horrible, obnoxious, vicious thing by emailing you and asking you to come to this blog.

She knew full well what you would do on this blog.

She is SOLELY responsible for the plague that is you.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 8:08 AM | Report abuse

@Scott

Just a simple question. You've made it very clear as to when YOU and about 47% of the rest of our nation believe human life begins.

My question for you is when do YOU believe that human life ends?

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 3, 2011 8:09 AM | Report abuse

Cao

You have no morality


What adult male - who says he is gay - moves to a communist country in Southeast Asia - if not for the little boys?


Seriously - you are a twisted sick person.

And you have worked with the Obama paid trolls to push deceptions and lies onto the American People - never caring that most of what you say is untrue and damaging to the Economy. You have pushed these lies with the Obama paid trolls like drug dealers in a public housing complex. Exactly the kind of neighborhood Obama claims he knows so well. Obama's people are trained as if they came directly from the drug-infested public housing projects.

AND yet, all the criticisms you have of the United States, you appear completely unaware that on every account, Vietnam is worse.


12BarBlues did a horrible, obnoxious, vicious thing by emailing you and asking you to come to this blog.

She knew full well what you would do on this blog.

She is SOLELY responsible for the plague that is you.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 8:14 AM | Report abuse

caothien9, no one has ever argued that a natural miscarriage should be considered murder. Even born children die from natural causes.

==

Imperfect. The reason for implantation failure remains unknown. Developmental defects are only presumed.

Suppose research shows that physical activity's a factor? Or mental activity? Suppose more embryos implant and develop if women are immobilized or forbidden reading between fertilization and endometrial implantation?

In that case, wouldnt women who move about after sex be murderesses?

The closer one looks at the blastula = person argument, the dumber it looks.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 8:21 AM | Report abuse

Cao

Again you prove that you are worthless.

Completely without merit or morals.

Your thoughts are a complete waste of electrons.


Is there any way the Vietnamese can just hurry up, arrest you and hang you upside-down in a pit?

Perhaps the Obama paid trolls could be hanging with you.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 8:24 AM | Report abuse

Just a simple question. You've made it very clear as to when YOU and about 47% of the rest of our nation believe human life begins.

==

This is such an absurd debate. It's all based on the sloppy use of language and the confusion between definitions and things. Yeah "when life begins," and "human being," as though anything thatbfalls under a sloppily broad definition of human life is morally interchangeable with any other.

Human gametes are already "alive" and "human" even before conception. Their union is nothing butnan event, a trivial step between gametogenesis and turning 21. One that the anto-choice crowd arbitrarily chooses as pivotal.

A hangnail is "human life." Life "begins" every time an intestinal cell divides, What sloppy, disconnected language.

Yeah, Scott, a zygote is a human because it isn't a cat or a dog. That's some really sharp thinking there.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 8:30 AM | Report abuse

Cao

You have no morality


What adult male - who says he is gay - moves to a communist country in Southeast Asia - if not for the little boys?


Seriously - you are a twisted sick person.

And you have worked with the Obama paid trolls to push deceptions and lies onto the American People - never caring that most of what you say is untrue and damaging to the Economy. You have pushed these lies with the Obama paid trolls like drug dealers in a public housing complex. Exactly the kind of neighborhood Obama claims he knows so well. Obama's people are trained as if they came directly from the drug-infested public housing projects.


AND yet, all the criticisms you have of the United States, you appear completely unaware that on every account, Vietnam is worse.


12BarBlues did a horrible, obnoxious, vicious thing by emailing you and asking you to come to this blog.

She knew full well what you would do on this blog.

She is SOLELY responsible for the plague that is you.


.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 8:32 AM | Report abuse

President Hillary, Hillarycare, 2017!!!???

What kind of drug induced, hallucinatory, liberal dream world is this nightmare lodged in??

It must be the chamber two levels below Hades itself. Even Satan would not go there.

Oh! The horror! The horror!!

Posted by: battleground51 | February 3, 2011 8:33 AM | Report abuse

Any thoughts on the morning after pill, is that murder? The pill? A condom?

I believe the Catholic church is against all of these, no?

Posted by: pragmaticagain | February 3, 2011 8:34 AM | Report abuse

Cao

Pond scum is higher on the evolutionary scale than you are.


You are a waste of food.

You are a waste of oxygen


You are a waste of everything required to keep you alive.

PLEASE LEAVE THE LITTLE BOYS IN VIETNAM ALONE - NO ONE CARES HOW MUCH YOU PAY THEM.

.

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 8:34 AM | Report abuse

I might at least respect the moral claims of the antiabortion crowd if they at least put in an appearance of consistency, but very few do. Those like 12Bar are exceptional, it's far more common for a pro life stance to be part of a syndrome of essentially punitive beliefs.

Its revealing that America is the only First World nation without a national program for infant nutrition, while also being the only one with a burgeoning Protestant fundamentalist influence in politics. There's plenty of passion to force pregnant women to bear children but practically none to force them to raise healthy children. Or to see that they're well educated.

As Bernie put it, what we have is a culture of punishment.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 8:38 AM | Report abuse

Cao

Everything you say is worthless

Please stay away from the little boys while you are in Southeast Asia, OK?

Posted by: RainForestRising | February 3, 2011 8:41 AM | Report abuse

No, caothien9, you are the one who is dumb (or worse, given the very same justifications used by Nazis during the Nuremberg trials; I noticed the you used the Troll Hunter for that post). Women who move about after sex will not be murderesses any more than women who take their born children for a drive (Susan Smith notwithstanding). Again, born children die of natural causes, and even for car accidents. No one has banned the transportation of children in automobiles though.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 3, 2011 8:42 AM | Report abuse

All, Morning Roundup posted:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/the_morning_plum_179.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | February 3, 2011 8:47 AM | Report abuse

Infant nutrition, freedom of religion, neo-natal healthcare, and education opportunities are all vastly better in the United States than in Vietnam.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 3, 2011 8:50 AM | Report abuse

The morning after pill is a delicious piece of disrmament for the culture of punishment crowd. Because a woman who takes RU-486 *doesn't know* if she conceived or not. And of course in the great majority of cases, she didn't. So the accusation of knowingly "murdering a human being" is replaced by a much foggier and much more eye-glazing argument .. even if she conceived, all the pill does in increase the chance of implantation failure from 70% to more like 99%.

No wonder the rabid pro lifers are against it ., it knocks the absolutist wind right outa their sails.

I must say, too, that the Catholic church loses a lot of credibility in the debate by coming out against birth control. Even aside from the fact of overpopulation, more than bad enough, there would be a lot fewer abortions if embryos never formed.

Maybe they should just come out and say that the goal is to breed ourselves into subhuman squalor.

Sorry 12 but this one really rankles.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 8:52 AM | Report abuse

And what do you know about Việt Nam, Jake? And about freedom of religion here, or education? And what does that have to do with the abortion conflict in America?

There is no such conflict here.

You seem unable to stay within the debate. Nuremberg, Việt Nam, what's next, Mozambique?

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Again, I am not Jake, but I was following up on a different point: "all the criticisms you have of the United States, you appear completely unaware that on every account, Vietnam is worse." As for me supposedly not staying on point in this debate, it's hardly my fault that you use Nuremberg-like justifications. If you are having that much trouble keeping up, may I suggest that you turn Troll Hunter back on?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 3, 2011 9:06 AM | Report abuse

Obamacare is clearly headed for the scrapheap of failed, liberal pipedreams and boondoggles. It will be the biggest carcass after LBJ and Kennedy's, "Great Society" WELFARE scam.

You know WELFARE. That's the giant con-game that squandered trillions in national treasure even as it destroyed the African American, family structure and made African Americans permanently dependent on Democrat charity.

Nipping it in the bud is a wise thing to do. Before more trillions are blown into the winds of government waste and fraud.

It took 30 years to kill welfare. It was Bill Clintons greatest achievement after scamming himself into a second term.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 3, 2011 9:37 AM | Report abuse

Hmm hmmm hmmm hmmm "I am not Jake.". Of course not, "Jake" is a nickname, but until you were banned as JakeD and then again as JakeD2, you posted here as "Jake."

Nuremberg was the site of some huge Nazi pageantry and later of war crimes trials. What you seek to achieve by bringing it into the abortion debate escapes me completely. I'm guessing it's just throwing out a distraction since you've failed to make a coherent point so far.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 3, 2011 9:42 AM | Report abuse

ruk:

""My question for you is when do YOU believe that human life ends?""

Presumably when there is no heart/lung/brain activity.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 3, 2011 10:14 AM | Report abuse

The following is Nuremberg-like logic: "No matter how the Nazis tried, they just couldn't see any moral issue in aborting something with less than blonde hair and blue eyes; alternatively, they were just following orders." Does THAT escape your thinking completely?

Back to my point about transporting born children via automobile, of course every State DOES regulate how to do so as safely as possible:

http://www.elitecarseats.com/custsurv/custserv.jsp?pageName=car_seat_laws

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 3, 2011 11:09 AM | Report abuse

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