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Posted at 6:05 PM ET, 02/22/2011

Happy Hour Roundup

By Greg Sargent

* Government shutdown kabuki continues as Harry Reid announces he'll introduce a measure next week to keep the federal government running for a month at current funding levels.

* But Republicans have rejected the offer, and as Brian Beutler notes, if they counter with a proposal to fund the government at lower levels, it kicks the ball back into Reid's court and forces him to decide whether to accept or reject it.

Bottom line: It's still unclear who has the upper hand here.

* Fact-check of the day: Post fact-checker Glenn Kessler absolutely demolishes the inane conservative talking point that Obama has "apologized" for America. Four Pinnochios.

* Wisconsin-mania continues to spread as Ohio Dems charge that public employees protesting efforts to roll back bargaining rights have been barred from entering the Ohio Statehouse.

* And Ohio Dems are now seeking a court injunction to gain access for protestors.

* Jon Cohn finds another interesting angle: Walker's proposal would also weaken the state's Medicaid program, a.k.a. Badgercare.

* Here is Americans for Prosperity's new ad set to run in Wisconsin, a clear effort to shift the conversation away from workers' rights:

* Great stuff on ABC News's Top Line, where former DCCC chair Martin Frost argued that this fight could end up benefitting Obama in 2012 by firing up labor in critical midwestern battleground states.

* An important point from Digby: The media is failing to clearly report that Wisconsin public employee unions have already accepted Governor Walker's fiscal demands.

* Huh: Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels defends the Dems' right to deny Republicans a quorum to protest anti-union legislation, and calls on Republicans to drop their "right to work" bill.

* Barbara Morrill notes the tremendous pressure from the right not to cave to labor, and asks: "Will the Republican legislators listen to him?"

* Sam Stein notes more evidence that the administration is saying the right things on Social Security and seems determined to remove the program from the current deficit debate.

* John Thune's decision not to run for president may be good news for Tim Pawlenty, who occupies a similar ideological space.

* Interesting nugget from the Progressive Change Campaign Committee's poll of the race for retiring Jane Harman's seat: Only 20 percent want a candidate who pledges to work with the other party, suggesting no appetite for bipartisanship for its own sake.

* The Obama administration today sent millions in federal grants related to health reform to governors hostile to the law, raising the question of whether they'll return the money.

* Some Fox News personalities are hilariously lacking in self-awareness.

* And don't miss this one: GOP Rep. Allen West, asked to name the passage in the Quran that commands Muslims to carry out attacks against innocent people, tells his questioner not to "try to blow sunshine up my butt."

What else is happening?

By Greg Sargent  | February 22, 2011; 6:05 PM ET
Categories:  2012, Happy Hour Roundup, House GOPers, Labor, Senate Republicans  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: The conversation is no longer about Wisconsin's finances
Next: The Morning Plum

Comments

This just in;

Right Wingers have suddenly discovered that the heroic Cops and Firemen of 9/11 have morphed into enemies of the state, and are destroying the economy.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 6:11 PM | Report abuse

FL GOP Gov Rick Scott still baffles common sense on shutting down pill mills:

As for the prescription drug database, Scott he prefers current law-enforcement efforts to crack down on pill mills. He doesn't like the idea of the government tracking prescrition purchases.

"I’m trying to figure out in that group where the money is. It has come to my attention that thousands of dollars have been spent on lawyers, travel, meals and board members," Scott said. "I don’t support the database. I believe it’s an invasion of privacy.... it appears that the money’s been wasted."

No state money is involved in establishing the database, but opponents fear it will only be a matter of time before the state starts funding it.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/content/another-news-making-rick-scott-presser

On average almost 9 people die every DAY from Oxycontin in Florida alone. Other states (KY, TN, WV) are begging him to allow the bipartisan plan -- that passed in FL legislature way before he was elected Gov -- to go forward... and he refuses.

Much much more on the Oxycontin epidemic and the "Flamingo Express"... read this, for real:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/08/2057033/gov-scott-seeks-to-kill-drug-database.html

Posted by: ronnieandrush | February 22, 2011 6:13 PM | Report abuse

The Big Fat Pillbilly will be delighted to hear that he can now resume his pill shopping ways.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 6:18 PM | Report abuse

http://epi.3cdn.net/9e237c56096a8e4904_rkm6b9hn1.pdf

I forget if I posted this before, but it clearly shows that public employees in Wisconsin are NOT overpaid.

Not that this will stop the Conservatives from claiming the lie. Because, you know, they need to say Conservative Things to get Palin winky points.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 6:18 PM | Report abuse

The Repubs should really run Allen West for president. He's just so -- presidential, ya know?

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 6:23 PM | Report abuse

Eventually this is all going to fall on Walker's shoulders, you guys realize. People might get mad at unioons and stuff, but people don't elect unions and if tue quality of life gets worse, Walker is going to take the heat. That's how it works. Americans blamed Obama for a recession he had nothing to do with. Same thing in Wisconsin.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 6:27 PM | Report abuse

Forget West. Here is their man.

From TPM

"Santorum says Wisconsin protestors are like drug addicts.

--Josh Marshall"


....................

Imagine that; A former Republican US Senator, who is talking about running for President, is calling the people who teach the children of Wisconsin, "Drug Addicts".


Palin is starting to look like someone in the mainstream of all those Republican Rabid Fanatics.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 6:27 PM | Report abuse

TNR eviscerates (I love that word) Judge Vinson's legal "reasoning" :http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/magazine/83134/health-care-ruling-vinson-republicans

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 6:28 PM | Report abuse

"Palin is starting to look like someone in the mainstream of all those Republican Rabid Fanatics.

Posted by: Liam-still "

Not sure about Palin, but at various times over the last few years, it's occurred to me how reasonable George Bush was relative to the Republicans we have now. Now that there are so many Republicans in power, it's going to be harder for them to hide their beliefs from the public which can't be good for them electorally. Does anyone think Walker is going to come out of this looking good?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 6:38 PM | Report abuse

DD,

A couple of clarifications re: the EPI study:

The private pay the survey captures is from compensation of Wisconsin's largest private corporations. Small biz does not pay like the big firms do.

The benefits compensation pegged to the public employee is not Wisconsin's, they're an average for the East North Central Census Division [Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin]. Wisconsin benefits are higher than the regions avg.

The EPI omits Wisc retiree health benefits.
Few in the private sector receive these, and those that do pay more for them and get significantly less coverage.

EPI does not calculate job security of public employee. Related, but not as strong a metric, EPI does not calculate early retirement.

Posted by: tao9 | February 22, 2011 6:50 PM | Report abuse

For cripes sake. Cut the crap. The teachers in Wisconsin did not wreck the economy. The Wall St. Robber Barons, and their Republican Puppets did.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 6:56 PM | Report abuse

Thanks Walker for doing what Obama could not...unite FDL, Progressive Campaign for Change, Paul Krugman and the Obama admin all behind a common cause.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | February 22, 2011 6:56 PM | Report abuse

I will just say right here, right now --
"Liam-still" is an absolute IDIOT.
Holy Cow!! Did someone open the gates to the loony bin?

Posted by: rdb2 | February 22, 2011 4:11 PM
========================================

LOL. Didn't take this poster long to figure out Liam.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 6:57 PM | Report abuse

Brigade, Plumline's Lobotomized Nelson Muntz strikes again. Haw Haw.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 6:59 PM | Report abuse

How about digging into my history of sucking off the Tax Payer teat?

I've been a blog troll for a very long time. See if you can find out what benefits I've sponged while being paid by "Tax Payers" for nothing.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011

=======================================

I don't really care. You couldn't survive without us taxpayers. Just consider it charity.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:01 PM | Report abuse

"The private pay the survey captures is from compensation of Wisconsin's largest private corporations. Small biz does not pay like the big firms do"

This is the only part I care about since the study is asserting this and Conservatives are asserting the opposite. And the retirement benefits were part of agreement. Take smaller wages, get better retirement.

But anyways, where did you learn that big businesses pay more than small. You've got a burden of proof for that. Also, where did you see this methodology?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 7:01 PM | Report abuse

A Modest Proposal.

Let all those Right Wingers with the proper education credentials put their lifestyles where their mouths are. Let them quit their current positions, and become teachers, under the conditions that Hosni Walker is setting.

I triple dog dare you to. Of course Walker himself does not qualify to be a teacher, since he is a poor grades dropout.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:04 PM | Report abuse

Liam,

The WallStRobberBarons donated more to Dems in the last three cycles. They donated significantly more to Mr. Obama than to anybody (in history). Goldman Sachs is running Mr. Obama's Treasury and the Fed.

AFSCME donated more to the Dems in 2010 than any other entity, union or corporate, donated to any or either party (ever).

Posted by: tao9 | February 22, 2011 7:06 PM | Report abuse

Hey, remember when meatpackers were unionized, and actually made living wages?

Good thing we busted up those unions, so the meatpackers could recruit and bus in illegal workers from Mexico. Who know better than to raise a stink if Jose or Alberto loses a finger and it winds up in your hamburger. I think we'd all agree we're better off eating feces and human body parts along with our meat, while taking away the jobs of citizens and giving them to illegals, than we were back when those union thugs were operating the plants.

Posted by: JennOfArk | February 22, 2011 3:04 PM
=========================================

Who's "we"? Those are the places where you should be fighting for unions instead of worrying about the rape of the taxpayers by public sector unions. The very public servants who are now up in arms about their own reduced benefits were standing guard at the packing plants when the first scabs crossed the picket lines. Eventually the scabs were replaced by faceless immigrants who are seen by Democrats only as potential voters.

Every time someone complains about the illegal packing house workers, some progressive accuses him of hating people with brown skin.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:08 PM | Report abuse

I see that Brigade, Plumline's Lobotomized Nelson Muntz is also changing people's words again, and reposting his own forged version of them.

Look up infantile in the dictionary and you will find a picture of Brigade, Plumline's Lobotomized Nelson Muntz. Haw Haw!

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:08 PM | Report abuse

The Big Fat Pillbilly will be delighted to hear that he can now resume his pill shopping ways.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 6:18 PM
=========================================

I'm afraid not. They've already lowered his bloated, drunken carcass into the ground. His former seat is now occupied by Scott Brown.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:10 PM | Report abuse

Tao, you are really pathetic. What the hell does what you just wrote have to do with the fact that they were the ones who destroyed the economy, and not the Wisconsin teachers.

You so called Jesus followers sure love to rob the poor to give it to the rich. He would have whipped you from the temple.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:11 PM | Report abuse

Brigade reminds me of "Five-O'Clock Charlie" from M*A*S*H.

Dig?

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 7:13 PM | Report abuse

Tao,

When are you quitting your job, and moving to Wisconsin to teach under the conditions that Hosni Walker wants to set?

Put your livelihood where your mouth is, Mr. Big Shot Right Wing Christian?

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:14 PM | Report abuse

Liam,

I taught and coached right out of college. Went to private-sector medium sized Commercial RE/AssetMgt for 20yrs. Back to teaching/coaching for 3yrs. Been in tech-sector now for almost 5yrs.

Knew countless folks in private-sector that could teach (or do anything). Knew a few career educators that could cut the private sector, and a few who could actually teach (one sister, one brother, and Ms. Tao included).

Posted by: tao9 | February 22, 2011 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Brigade is the Lobotomized version of Nelson Muntz. They both go around spouting infantile taunts, in order to try and conceal the fact that they are scared little weasels. The only difference between Nelson and Brigade is that Nelson is a scared young bully, and Brigade is a scared old bully, who has been forever stuck in a 9 year old state of arrested development.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:21 PM | Report abuse

More inanities from one of the blog's most colorful clowns, DDAWD:
==========================================

"I forget if I posted this before, but it clearly shows that public employees in Wisconsin are NOT overpaid.

"Not that this will stop the Conservatives from claiming the lie. Because, you know, they need to say Conservative Things to get Palin winky points."

-------

Uh, if the state can't afford them, they are by definition overpaid for their current circumstances. If the pay scale in California is better, they can move there---just like private sector folks have to move in search of better jobs.

And why don't you go whack yourself and get it over if you're going to spend another evening obsessing about Palin and how women of her ilk will always be beyond your grasp.

-------

"Eventually this is all going to fall on Walker's shoulders, you guys realize. People might get mad at unioons and stuff, but people don't elect unions and if tue quality of life gets worse, Walker is going to take the heat. That's how it works. Americans blamed Obama for a recession he had nothing to do with."

Hahahahaha. More drivel. Obama's third year in office and still nothing is his reponsibility. If things get better, it will because of his wonderful leadership; if not, it will always be Bush's fault.

Logic is not a strength of liberals.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:22 PM | Report abuse

"Brigade is the Lobotomized version of Nelson Muntz. They both go around spouting infantile taunts, in order to try and conceal the fact that they are scared little weasels. The only difference between Nelson and Brigade is that Nelson is a scared young bully, and Brigade is a scared old bully, who has been forever stuck in a 9 year old state of arrested development.

Posted by: Liam-still "

Just let him be. He needs to be a part of the Conservative Club. Whatever gets him through the day.

That doesn't mean we need to talk about him. Just block him.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 7:23 PM | Report abuse

To hell with David Brooks. That guy was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and to quote Ann Richards: "He was born on third base, but thinks he hit a triple."

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 4:40 PM
=========================================

Liam floated out of the sewer on a raft of fecal matter, struck out, and thinks he hit a home run, since he's still standing at home plate.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:25 PM | Report abuse

Hey!

I still coach middle & high school-age kids year round for a local lacrosse travel club.

And I'm a part-time (I work, you know)coach for a NYS nationally-ranked Girl's High School team.

All volunteer, like, for free.

{{{peace mon, c'mon}}}

Posted by: tao9 | February 22, 2011 7:25 PM | Report abuse

Tao,

In other words, you have no intention of living in Wisconsin as a teacher, on the restricted income and compensation rules that Walker wants to impose.

I thought so. You pious lot sure have to seek forgiveness every Sunday, because you spend the other six days, siding with those who abuse the working class.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:25 PM | Report abuse

Well, yes, Liam. I have no intention of going to Wisconsin.

The kids need me here.

Posted by: tao9 | February 22, 2011 7:28 PM | Report abuse

Greg:
"The Obama administration today sent millions in federal grants related to health reform to governors hostile to the law, raising the question of whether they'll return the money."
====================================

If they don't keep the money, will their constituents receive refunds for taxes paid to fund the program? Or maybe Obama just plucked the money from a tree somewhere in the garden of LaLa.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:29 PM | Report abuse

Brigade, as always, doing his best turn as a rabid, yet flaccid, attack mutt.

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 7:31 PM | Report abuse

Brigade, Plumline's Lobotomized Nelson Muntz strikes again. Haw Haw.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 6:59 PM
=====================================

You need some new material. Or do you only watch cartoons?

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:31 PM | Report abuse

Liam-aleen

No O in pius. {{{heh}}}

really, peace-out man, you got the wrong punching bag.

Posted by: tao9 | February 22, 2011 7:33 PM | Report abuse

"Tao,

In other words, you have no intention of living in Wisconsin as a teacher, on the restricted income and compensation rules that Walker wants to impose."

It's weird. If teachers are so overpaid, why the hell isn't everyone clamoring to become one? Hell, come to New Orleans. We need lots of them. Jindal isn't going to go after collective bargaining and teachers can make their millions of dollars.

Seriously, it takes Conservatives to come up with the idea that freakin TEACHERS are somehow grossly overpaid.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 7:33 PM | Report abuse

Tao,

In my book, you enjoy picking on the salt of the earth middle class people who teach in the Wisconsin schools.

They live in modest homes, have little set aside, out of the small salaries they have been paid, and most of them will not be able to pay to put even one of their own kids through college. These are the people you keep picking on. Shame on you. your right wing greedy cronies.

You are siding with the same sort of people that Padraig Pearse despised:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wnqaSNygHs

The Rebel.

I am come of the seed of the people, the people that sorrow;
Who have no treasure but hope,
No riches laid up but a memory of an ancient glory
My mother bore me in bondage, in bondage my mother was born,
I am of the blood of serfs;
The children with whom I have played, the men and women with whom I have eaten
Have had masters over them, have been under the lash of masters,
and though gentle, have served churls.
The hands that have touched mine,
the dear hands whose touch Is familiar to me
Have worn shameful manacles, have been bitten at the wrist by manacles,
have grown hard with the manacles and the task-work of strangers.
I am flesh of the flesh of these lowly, I am bone of their bone I that have never submitted;
I that have a soul greater than the souls of my people’s masters,
I that have vision and prophecy, and the gift of fiery speech,
I that have spoken with God on the top of his holy hill.
And because I am of the people, I understand the people,
I am sorrowful with their sorrow, I am hungry with their desire;
My heart is heavy with the grief of mothers,
My eyes have been wet with the tears of children,
I have yearned with old wistful men,
And laughed and cursed with young men;
Their shame is my shame, and I have reddened for it
Reddened for that they have served, they who should be free
Reddened for that they have gone in want, while others have been full,
Reddened for that they have walked in fear of lawyers and their jailors.
With their Writs of Summons and their handcuffs,
Men mean and cruel.
I could have borne stripes on my body
Rather than this shame of my people.
And now I speak, being full of vision:
I speak to my people, and I speak in my people’s name to
The masters of my people:
I say to my people that they are holy,
That they are august despite their chains.
That they are greater than those that hold them
And stronger and purer,
That they have but need of courage, and to call on the name of their God,
God the unforgetting, the dear God who loves the people
For whom he died naked, suffering shame.
And I say to my people’s masters: Beware
Beware of the thing that is coming, beware of the risen people
Who shall take what ye would not give.
Did ye think to conquer the people, or that law is stronger than life,
And than men’s desire to be free?
We will try it out with you ye th

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:37 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD-

LOL! You got it, baby. Wait, aren't fire and police, as well? Just because they are exempt right now WI doesn't mean they are exempt...

Still waiting for the conservatives around here to shout en masse that Walker's a hyocrite for exempting them.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 7:37 PM | Report abuse

My favorite was the person who suggested that all kids be home-schooled.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 7:38 PM | Report abuse

I triple dog dare you to. Of course Walker himself does not qualify to be a teacher, since he is a poor grades dropout.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:04 PM
=========================================

One of my co-workers is a former college teacher with a PhD. He changed fields because he wanted to make more money. That's how it's done. Odd that he felt he could make more money in a non-unionized profession. He's totally incompetent, by the way, and lacks any form of common sense. He'll probably be back in teaching before long. I hate to think of what hacks are left behind if people like him are leaving. Here's an idea: get rid of the worthless teachers, and maybe we can afford to pay more to the good ones.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:39 PM | Report abuse

Looks like the poll results show that more and more people are catching on to the fact that poor workers did not bring about the financial deficits, or outsource the jobs.

The 31% in support of destroying the unions is most likely comprised of mostly Tea Party Imbeciles, AKA Stupid Koch Suckers.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011
=========================================

roflol -- that truly is the most laughable thing I have ever read. clue: polls are worthless. you can make people say anything you want just by a change of wording. and not knowing the construction/methodology makes it even more worthless. it's calling 'cherry-picking.'
Posted by: fiona5 | January 14, 2011
========================================

fiona5 also has figured out Liam.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:46 PM | Report abuse

The Indiana State Budget is balanced, and yet the Republicans there are trying to take away the Teachers Collective Bargaining rights.

That lets the cat out of the bag. It is all about Union Busting across the nation, and not about balancing state budgets.


Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:50 PM | Report abuse

Still waiting for the conservatives around here to shout en masse that Walker's a hyocrite for exempting them.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 7:37 PM
=========================================

Still waiting for the liberals around here to shout en masse that Obama's a hypocrite for exempting any and all businesses which can come up with the necessary campaign contributions from having to participate in his wonderful HCR.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:50 PM | Report abuse

And Koch continues his assault on teachers:

"As ThinkProgress has reported, the global conglomerate Koch Industries not only helped elect Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI), but is the leading force orchestrating his union-busting campaign. Koch gave Walker over $43,000 in direct donations and its allies aired millions of dollars worth of attack ads against his Democratic opponent. Then, Koch political operatives pressured Walker to crush labor unions as one of his first priorities. Tim Phillips, a former lobbying partner to Jack Abramoff and current president of Americans for Prosperity, a front financed by David Koch, told the New York Times that Koch operatives “had worked behind the scenes to try to encourage a union showdown.” A Koch-financed front group, the American Legislative Exchange Council, has prepped Wisconsin GOP lawmakers with anti-labor legislative ideas.

Today, the Koch group Americans for Prosperity announced that it will air an ad smearing the protesters in Madison and calling on the state to support Walker’s power grab. As we noted on Friday, Koch has demanded that collective bargaining rights be curtailed for both private and public sector unions, a step beyond Walker’s already extreme move. The ad disparages the pro-labor protesters for allegedly bringing in “out of state political protesters.” In fact, the small pro-Walker demonstration orchestrated by Koch operatives last Saturday included a number of out of state conservative activists, including Herman Cain (from Georgia), Jim Hoft (from Missouri), and Phillips (from Virginia)."

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 7:51 PM | Report abuse

My favorite was the person who suggested that all kids be home-schooled.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 7:38 PM |

I believe that was JakeD's Claw.

The vast majority of the working class can not afford to stay at home, because they have to work two or more jobs just to stay above water, but that does not stop those addled tea party clowns from offering up their stupid solutions.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:55 PM | Report abuse

That lets the cat out of the bag. It is all about Union Busting across the nation, and not about balancing state budgets.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:50 PM
=========================================

Is that what it's all about in California? Just so the casual observer may be aware, if you see the moniker Liam-still at the bottom of a post, there will always be at least one lie in the post, and usually more.

He doesn't think we catch them. You have to wonder how anyone that dumb has managed to stay alive and functioning for this long.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 7:57 PM | Report abuse

The vast majority of the working class can not afford to stay at home, because they have to work two or more jobs just to stay above water . . .

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 7:55 PM
==========================================

And yet you're on this blog all day every day. Since you're obviously not a member of the working class, are you drowning or just sponging?

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 8:01 PM | Report abuse

@Liam: ""Let all those Right Wingers with the proper education credentials put their lifestyles where their mouths are. Let them quit their current positions, and become teachers, under the conditions that Hosni Walker is setting.""

I work for a public school system. Since I'm not a teacher, in our system, I'm not in a union and don't have union representation. Fairly close. Also, it would be the same conditions more than half of all public workers continue to work under today, and the same condition almost all public workers labored under pre-1975.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | February 22, 2011 8:01 PM | Report abuse

Fiona,

Check this out;

"How John Birch Society Extremism Never Dies: The Fortune Behind Scott Walker’s Union-Busting Campaign "

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/21/zombie-johnbirch-walker/

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 8:03 PM | Report abuse

"That lets the cat out of the bag. It is all about Union Busting across the nation, and not about balancing state budgets.

Posted by: Liam-still"

I think the sh** has finally hit the fan. The middle class are being asked to sacrifice over and over again while the Conservatives insist that the richest people sacrifice as little as possible. Every poll that's out there has Americans in strong support of the unions. Bush may have had the right idea. Strip the working class of their rights piecemeal through the Supreme Court. Don't try and take everything away at once.

I'm interested to see where this goes. It's too early to tell, but these protests may be truly transformative and may have the chance to bury Conservatism.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 8:06 PM | Report abuse

ABC

If you're reading tonight I found this for you. I have the feeling you either worked in or have strong ties to WI. A reminder of a great Republican Governor, Robert LaFollette.

""The Tax Commission suggested two measures of reform. One of their bills provided for a simple increase in the license tax, the other provided for a physical valuation of the railroads and a wholly new system of taxation upon an ad valorem basis, measures which I had earnestly advocated in my campaign speeches, and recommended in my message. I regarded this latter as the more scientific method of taxation. The Commission stated that while they had so framed the bills as to err on the side of injustice to the people rather than to the railroads, the passage of either of them would mean an increase of taxes paid by railroads and other public service corporations of more than three quarters of a million dollars annually.

No sooner had the taxation and direct primary bills been introduced than the lobby gathered in Madison in full force. Lobbyists had been there before, but never in such numbers or with such an organization. I never saw anything like it. The railroads, threatened with the taxation bills, and the bosses, threatened by the direct primary, evidently regarded it as the death struggle. Not only were the regular lobbyists in attendance but they made a practice during the entire winter of bringing in delegations of more or less influential men from all parts of the state, some of whom often remained two or three weeks and brought every sort of pressure to bear on the members of the legislature.""

http://my.firedoglake.com/peterr/2011/02/22/scott-walker-meet-robert-lafollette/

Posted by: lmsinca | February 22, 2011 8:08 PM | Report abuse

Still no Right Wing takers on the request that they volunteer to go teach in Wisconsin under the salary restrictions that Hosni Walker wants to put in place. Just a lot of personal guff about their own lifestyles.

I am not interested in your frigging self absorbed biographies, since you have not an ounce of empathy for the put upon teachers in Wisconsin and now Indiana.

I only want to hear from all you well educated fat cats who are ready to rush to Wisconsin to fill some of those great paying teacher positions that Hosni Walker has to offer.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 8:09 PM | Report abuse

Brigade, were your teachers in elementary and secondary school "worthless"? I did not go to elite public schools [went through sixth grade in a rural school, went to working class secondary schools] but I had more good teachers than bad ones, although the worst ones were, in fact, worthless. I just would never go to that level of criticism from my own experience, so I wondered about yours.

You are almost as old as I, so I assume you have adult children. My four had better teachers than I had, and I would say two had no "worthless" teachers throughout 12 years. They all went to better public schools than I did.

tao, thank you for your volunteer service.

Ethan, I did not understand how my characterization of your use of the terrorism/domestic poisoning case to make fun of TEA people was significantly different than your reply explanation:

"I wasn't making fun of anyone. I was pointing out that they are busy making fools of themselves, as usual."

Are you making a distinction based on the earnestness of your position?

Let me add to the substantive analysis that the USA took the position that Appellant *had standing* to raise the 10th A. in her attack on the anti-terrorism statute being applied to her domestic hate crime. The court had to appoint an attorney to represent the Circuit's opinion on standing!

So the issue is serious enough to get an airing, and if the Supremes were to rule that in fact the anti-terrorism statute is overbroad in its application to this case b/c of the 10th A. it would have far reaching consequences, including wrt PPACA.

Again, I think the Supremes may remand so the Circuit is forced to rule on her 10thA. argument, but in the end her conviction will stand, because the statute itself is drawn narrowly enough to meet the requirement to be an anti-terrorism statute in furtherance of the treaty. Remember that Treaty law stands next to the Constitution as "fundamental".

So it seems bootless to me to call TEA fools on this particular issue.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 22, 2011 8:13 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD again:

"I think the sh** has finally hit the fan. The middle class are being asked to sacrifice over and over again while the Conservatives insist that the richest people sacrifice as little as possible."

Get back to us when these public sector union members are paying taxes and dues to fund the salaries and benefits of "the richest people" and we'll talk.

------------------------

And again:

"Every poll that's out there has Americans in strong support of the unions."

roflol -- that truly is the most laughable thing I have ever read. clue: polls are worthless. you can make people say anything you want just by a change of wording. and not knowing the construction/methodology makes it even more worthless. it's calling 'cherry-picking.'
Posted by: fiona5 | January 14, 2011

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 8:14 PM | Report abuse

"Brigade, were your teachers in elementary and secondary school "worthless"?"

Too easy, Mark. Too easy.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 8:16 PM | Report abuse

Why does the Right hate teachers? I think it was TrollMcWN who posted that the police and fire unions didn't support Walker as much one might think. Therefore, why are they exempted?

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 8:19 PM | Report abuse

Re: Vinson and HCR-

Looks like another Fed. Judge is not the Tea parties BFF: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/federal-judge-in-dc-upholds-health-care-reform-says-some-arguments-ignore-reality.php?ref=fpblg

What's the score now? Like 327 to 2?

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 8:23 PM | Report abuse

In advanced cultures around the globe Teachers are revered, and now we are seeing The American Oligarchs and their running dogs, talking about Teachers as if they were bank robbers, or as one Republican candidate for President described them; "Drug Addicts".

Good luck with getting the children of America to show respect for teachers, and study hard for them, after they have heard their own parents talk about them, like they were mere vermin to be eradicated from society.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 8:24 PM | Report abuse

Walker now holding state employees hostage: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/scott-walker-to-democrats-come-home-or-the-employed-get-it.php

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 8:29 PM | Report abuse

@Tao: "The kids need me here."

Crazy brilliant. As always. It'd be a grayer world without you, Tao.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | February 22, 2011 8:31 PM | Report abuse

Wisconsin Workers taken Hostage by Ayatollah Walker!

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 8:32 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD, I never suggested that all kids be home-schooled.

ashotinthedark, Wisconsin State Senate has voted to force absent members to physically pick up their paychecks, no more direct deposit for them, on the floor of the Senate during a session day.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 22, 2011 8:33 PM | Report abuse

Qaddafi says that Walker should just get on with it, and send his Police State Goons out to shoot up the homes of the Democrats.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 8:36 PM | Report abuse

"My favorite was the person who suggested that all kids be home-schooled."

Who suggested that?

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 22, 2011 8:37 PM | Report abuse

Brigade, were your teachers in elementary and secondary school "worthless"? I did not go to elite public schools [went through sixth grade in a rural school, went to working class secondary schools] but I had more good teachers than bad ones, although the worst ones were, in fact, worthless. I just would never go to that level of criticism from my own experience, so I wondered about yours.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 22, 2011 8:13 PM
=======================================

I've seen teachers all over the map as far as skills and intelligence. By your own admission, "the worst ones were, in fact, worthless." My post suggested we be allowed to get rid of the worthless ones and pay more to the good ones. We could do that in the days when I went to school. I didn't say all teachers were worthless.

I recall a John Morrell packing plant in a town where I lived for some time. They had a strong union and you could always find the second shift spending the second half of the shift downtown running the night clubs while they were getting paid to work. Eventually that plant was replaced by another one (Hormel) which, some years later, voted to go on strike to support a sister plant which was on strike in another state. Eventually, the owners settled with the union and workers in the sister plant and promptly closed the facility in my old home town; I might add that no one called for a strike at the sister plant to protest the closing. The workers there had voted themselves right out of a job.

A generation and a couple of ownership changes later, the plant now employs mostly Mexican immigrants and is non-union. There is always a tension between management and labor, but labor must be careful not to kill the golden goose. Paying people for not working and forcing businesses to keep worthless employees on its payroll, public or otherwise, is eventually going to cause problems and perhaps even put the business "out" of business.

Posted by: Brigade | February 22, 2011 8:38 PM | Report abuse

qb: """My favorite was the person who suggested that all kids be home-schooled."

Who suggested that?""

I think it was claw. In any case, it was tongue-in-cheek. Or at least that would be the rational assumption. ;-)

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | February 22, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

Why does the Right hate teachers? I think it was TrollMcWN who posted that the police and fire unions didn't support Walker as much one might think. Therefore, why are they exempted?

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 8:19 PM
.....................

All most all of the Police and Firemen Unions endorsed Walker. He is also afraid that if they were to strike, all hell would break loose, so he is calibrating his attacks very finely.

If some one got shot, or a house caught fire, and no one responded, it would make headlines immediately.

If kids start to fall behind, because salaries drop too low to attract good teachers, no one will notice the difference until Walker has already run for President or retired.

Of course the concerted effort to kill the Teacher Unions is most likely the first step in the plan to privatize all schools. Can you say The Koch Chain Of Tax Payer funded Private Academies, Boys and Girls?

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

Claw- I am all for them using whatever legal means they have at their disposal to force the senators back.

I need to talk to my broth who teaches in Georgia . I know he will get a pension and I don't think he is in a union but could be wrong about that. So even without a union he is still is making out alright. I wonder if he is still a thug or a freeloader or whatever else teachers have been called around here lately.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | February 22, 2011 8:47 PM | Report abuse

quarterback1, serious question: assuming that the Republicans win back the White House and Senate next year, along with super-majority status in the House, would you really want to be President if the Democrats are simply going to go scorched earth and not let anything get done for your whole term? Even the Republicans let Sotomayor and Kagan onto the Supreme Court.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 22, 2011 8:47 PM | Report abuse

Anyone taking bets? I'm betting Walker loses this standoff.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | February 22, 2011 8:48 PM | Report abuse

"I think it was claw. In any case, it was tongue-in-cheek. Or at least that would be the rational assumption. ;-)

Posted by: Kevin_Willis"

Hopefully. I guess him calling for the execution of gay soldiers was also tongue in cheek. That's the problem with you people. I would swear that whenever whoever said that the Bush tax cuts account for "0.00%" of the deficit, he was being tongue in cheek too. Or when Boehner says it's ok for public employees to lose their jobs, he was being tongue in cheek. I dunno, you all are way too advanced in your humor.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 8:49 PM | Report abuse

"I think it was TrollMcWN who posted that the police and fire unions didn't support Walker as much one might think. Therefore, why are they exempted?"

Hi chuck! Hope all is well with you today! Just to clarify, I wrote that I think Walker's strategy was to not go after police and firepeople's unions because any problem, post budget, would be demagogued. Somebody's house burns down, or granny gets mugged and it would immediately be blamed on budget cuts. It would be a story the media would run with and would reverse any gains the governor was hoping to make. So, in pursuance of his goals he (Walker) exempted police and firepeople's unions to avoid that pitfall. It was strategy rather than favoritism, and when you look at the fact that only 4 of over 300 police and firepeople union's endorsed Walker, it makes the conculsion of strategy versus favoritism that much more plausible. Incrementalism, as a definition, would probably cover it as well.

Really interesting stuff today! Great reading!

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 22, 2011 8:50 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Liam-

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 8:50 PM | Report abuse

ashotinthedark, as I read Wisconsin law, State Troopers can legally escort wayward Senators back to the chamber.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 22, 2011 8:53 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for a good post, Brigade. I have had some difficult negotiations with unions, but I never faced one that was implacable like the Hormel local you describe. My clients have been lucky.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 22, 2011 8:53 PM | Report abuse

"Anyone taking bets? I'm betting Walker loses this standoff."

I agree. He folds like a cheap suit.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 22, 2011 8:53 PM | Report abuse

As the American class war comes together, battle lines will be drawn, we see it on TV now in the Arab world. The promise of upward mobility only works when you can say, are you better off now than you were? Americans know the answer nowadays and they are seeking sides, the blame game has been on for some time.

In the aftermath of ground wars, it does matter whether they fought over this cornfield, that bridge, a hill or a sunken road...they seemed so important at the time, a good place to fight. Some political battles going on now, we do or don't like for tactical reasons, some for strategic reasons.

Pitching insults on the internet isn't reality. In the real world, the right has the money and it is serious. Maybe liberals won't pretend we are going to find a compromise by working from the center anymore.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 8:54 PM | Report abuse

@ troll-

Then Walkers' just pimpin' for Koch.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 8:56 PM | Report abuse

"Anyone taking bets? I'm betting Walker loses this standoff.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis "

Probably, but let's hope Walker keeps it up. Not only is the worker revolt not dying out, it's spreading to other states. The middle class seems to be realizing that it's ok to fight for themselves once in a while.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 8:59 PM | Report abuse

No, folding like a cheap suit would just make Walker the latest in a long line of Republicans to do so. It's why they are only somewhat better than the alternative.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 22, 2011 9:00 PM | Report abuse

Paying people for not working and forcing businesses to keep worthless employees on its payroll, public or otherwise...is the prerogative of the ruling class.

The mistake labor makes, is when it tries the same trick.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 9:03 PM | Report abuse

"The middle class seems to be realizing that it's ok to fight for themselves once in a while."

That's not the middle class on TV. It's class of government dependents trying to preserve their cozy arrangements.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 22, 2011 9:03 PM | Report abuse

@shrink2

Check out Governor Chris Christie's latest State of the State speech:

"One key to changing direction has been changing our approach to the budget process.

Every year, the Office of Legislative Services puts out a projected deficit. The only problem is that this number assumes no one is actually managing the budget or setting priorities. That is yesterday’s New Jersey.

The old projection is a result of the old way of budgeting… assuming you cannot control the budget and guide it to a more sustainable place, but instead must just let it take its own course. To run away from hard choices, just because they are hard. To put the government on autopilot, with no strong leadership setting priorities.

No more.

For too many years, our government has operated under the belief that the baseline – the place you begin – is to continue to fund every program in the budget: regardless of the fiscal climate, regardless of the economy, and regardless of the effectiveness of the program. Not anymore.

Our process is based on the belief that to survive and to grow, you need to build a realistic budget from the bottom up. You fund what you need – this year – to succeed, not every relic from two decades ago that is still on the books.

The baseline is zero. Zero-based budgeting, which I promised in the campaign, has finally come to New Jersey."

http://nj.gov/governor/news/addresses/2010s/approved/20110222.html

Posted by: jnc4p | February 22, 2011 9:06 PM | Report abuse

qb, I like you, I think we could figure this out. We need to have this fight. We have to stop borrowing money to buy off all sides.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 9:07 PM | Report abuse

"@ troll-

Then Walkers' just pimpin' for Koch."

Uh (that was for you, Kevin;-)), ok.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 22, 2011 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Kevin: "Anyone taking bets? I'm betting Walker loses this standoff."

Yeah, I'd bet that, too.

With Daniels in Indiana, Scott in Florida, and our own Rick Snyder here in Michigan coming out today on the other side of Walker, he's getting a little lonely out on that perch he wandered onto.

Posted by: suekzoo1 | February 22, 2011 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Try to pretend the middle class -- teachers, nurses, firemen, cops -- are not the middle class. Maybe it's because they are doing a little better than you, they have benefits, and you don't. Probably you don't even have a job, if you are like most rightwing blog addicts. Which makes you very uncomfortable, because then you realize you aren't actually middle class anymore. and instead of being angry at the very wealthy people who created this scenario, you are angry at the people who have just a little bit more than you ... at the other homeless group under the bridge that has one more sparrow roasting on their rusty curtain rod than you do.

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 9:16 PM | Report abuse

Yes I know, I want Cristie to succeed and I want Obama to succeed, but I do not want them to do it by pretending or borrowing past the problem.

At the state level, they can't...

Negotiating lawyers control government for good reason. But there comes a time when giving everyone a little of this and that and promising only feeds the negotiation process.

We have to make choices. We have to hurt some people more than others. There is nothing to be given, this is a hurt distribution process. Hurt the poor, hurt the middle class, hurt the upper middle class, hurt the upper-more middle class...I have to try not to be funny, but hurting the poor isn't capitalism.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 9:16 PM | Report abuse

The baseline is zero. Zero-based budgeting, which I promised in the campaign, has finally come to New Jersey."

http://nj.gov/governor/news/addresses/2010s/approved/20110222.html

Posted by: jnc4p | February 22, 2011 9:06 PM

Jimmy Carter is republican governor of New Jersey? I thought the GOP hated all of his ideas.

Posted by: pragmaticagain | February 22, 2011 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Walker is only programmed to operate one way. He will not relent, so either the Democrats return, or Walker will start firing people, even though he does not need to. You see, his current budget would not save a single penny, were the Unions to lose their right to engage in collective bargaining. So his threat of not being able to afford to pay the state workers now, if the Union does not give up the right to engage in collective bargaining in the future, is pure crap. Still, I expect he will fire people, because he is mentally as limited and rigid as The Terminator.

Keep in mind that The Teachers Unions do not negotiate contracts with the State. They negotiate them with their individual school district school administrations, and the local elected officials.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 22, 2011 9:20 PM | Report abuse

@ prag-

Re; Carter-good catch.

Maybe Christie will see that so-called "liberal" programs need *more* money.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 9:21 PM | Report abuse

"We have to make choices. We have to hurt some people more than others. There is nothing to be given, this is a hurt distribution process."

Excuse me, please name one place were the'upper-more middle class" is being hurt.

One tiny bit of this beautiful 'shared sacrifice" -- what are they sacrificing? Name one thing you are 'sacrificing,' for instance, when you are talking about 'hurt.' Where, exactly, are you 'hurting?'

The fact is, all the 'shared sacrifice' is being felt by being who have nothing left.

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Rahm is the new mayor-elect of Chicago.

Conservative response about thugs, goons, socialists, communists, nazis, illegal aliens, and black people to follow.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 9:22 PM | Report abuse

lmsinca, I'm trying to make this a narrow answer. Yes, I lived and worked in Wisconsin for a lot of years and admired the Progressive tradition that was behind most of the good things there, though LaFollette was actually well before my time (LOL). My kids went to WI public schools and had the usual mix of teachers who were apparently good enough to prepare them for first-rate colleges and excellent careers, one in the public and one in the private sector. In general, the Upper Midwest has a tradition of good public schools. It's part of the quality of life here, and it sickens me to see it under attack in this short-sighted way.

And Brigade, you creep, I'm both passionate and rational about it.

Posted by: AllButCertain | February 22, 2011 9:23 PM | Report abuse

shrink, which sides?

I'm generally not optimistic about these things. I agree the fights need to be had, but I seem them continuing either not to happen or to bog down in a quagmire of misinformation and ignorance and graft.

Rent seeking will always be endemic in the era of big government, which not only never ended but kept right on establishing itself.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 22, 2011 9:24 PM | Report abuse

"Conservative response about thugs, goons, socialists, communists, nazis, illegal aliens, and black people to follow."

Carol Moseley Braun and Miguel del Valle are not right wing nuts. DDAWD, stay away from Chicago politics if you can.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 9:26 PM | Report abuse

fiona, I think Shrink is saying what should be done, not what is actually happening.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Walker resorts to blackmail and hostage threats:

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) took to the state airwaves Tuesday evening to offer another defense of his controversial budget package, which includes a provision that would strip many state workers of their collective bargaining rights. Speaking to camera, Walker repeated his threat of layoffs to come, if 14 state Senate Democrats who skipped town to prevent a vote from taking place, don't return to Madison.

"The people who will suffer if the Democrats stay away, Walker said, will be the very state workers they say they're trying to protect.

"Failure to act on this budget repair bill means at least 1,500 state workers will be laid off before the end of June," he said. "If there's no agreement by July 1, another 5-6,000 state workers as well as 5-6,000 local government employees would also be laid off."

Walker said that if the Democrats don't come home soon, the responsibility for those potentially 10,000 plus layoffs will fall squarely on their shoulders."

Pay the ransom, or we kill the kid.

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 9:29 PM | Report abuse

"Try to pretend the middle class -- teachers, nurses, firemen, cops -- are not the middle class. Maybe it's because they are doing a little better than you, they have benefits, and you don't. Probably you don't even have a job, if you are like most rightwing blog addicts. Which makes you very uncomfortable, because then you realize you aren't actually middle class anymore. and instead of being angry at the very wealthy people who created this scenario, you are angry at the people who have just a little bit more than you ... at the other homeless group under the bridge that has one more sparrow roasting on their rusty curtain rod than you do."

Should I assume this drivel was aimed at me? Hahahaha How clueless and ignorant you are.

Btw, being angry at more successful people is a defining trait of liberals, not conservatives. You are the party of resentment. Or perhaps you'd prefer "ressentiment."

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 22, 2011 9:34 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD, I never called for the execution of gay soldiers either. Are you sure you are using Troll Hunter properly?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 22, 2011 9:39 PM | Report abuse

qb

"I'm generally not optimistic about these things. I agree the fights need to be had, but I seem them continuing either not to happen or to bog down in a quagmire of misinformation and ignorance and graft."

Clearly, the sides protect the problem. It is how they make their money.

"Rent seeking will always be endemic in the era of big government, which not only never ended but kept right on establishing itself."

That is because we are all complicit. We are in on it (sorry not you and I, I just have to say that boring disclaimer because of the likes-to-fight thing).

Now American politics is about manipulating its spoils system. It is a tragedy It isn't new, but it is as if that is all there is left. Both sides have looted the spoils.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 9:40 PM | Report abuse

@ Troll @ 9:08

"Uh (that was for you, Kevin;-)), ok."

Huh? What does Kevin have to do with it?
I was responding to your assertion that very few unions supported Walker.

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 22, 2011 9:53 PM | Report abuse

"Hahahaha How clueless and ignorant you are."

Hey look, Cro-Magnons are capable of a semblance of laughter. Who knew?

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 9:53 PM | Report abuse

Did you see Gov. Walker's "fireside chat"? Watch the vid after the jump. Here's our write up, including Walker's claim that the protests are being driven by outside agitators.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Isn't that what Qadaffi just claimed? Didn't Mubarak say the same thing -- outside agitators. Ahmedinajad used those words too, I think.

What's going on with these republican governors, impersonating Middle East despots and stealing ideas from Jimmy Carter.

Posted by: pragmaticagain | February 22, 2011 9:56 PM | Report abuse

"The fact is, all the 'shared sacrifice' is being felt by being who have nothing left."

Yes, I agree and that is the fight. That was what I was trying to intimate.

The right has tried to outflank the class war that has to happen by invoking all of the disasters that deemed themselves socialist. Yet socialism is succeeding all over the so called western world. No revolution, no rendition...you can argue we protect all that, but then I'll ask you why...

To me it is as if we could impugn democracy by attacking the official names of the North Korean apocalypse, or the old German Democratic Republic.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 9:59 PM | Report abuse

Claw- I am all for them using whatever legal means they have at their disposal to force the senators back.

I need to talk to my broth who teaches in Georgia . I know he will get a pension and I don't think he is in a union but could be wrong about that. So even without a union he is still is making out alright. I wonder if he is still a thug or a freeloader or whatever else teachers have been called around here lately.

Posted by: ashotinthedark | February 22, 2011 10:01 PM | Report abuse

"The 97-union South Central Federation of Labor of Wisconsin is laying groundwork for a general strike if Gov. Scott Walker succeeds in enacting legislation that would strip most bargaining rights from most public employee unions.
{snip}
A coordinating committee is being formed to contact European unions with experience conducting general strikes, and to begin educating and organizing unions, students and other groups, said Carl Aniel, labor federation delegate from AFSCME Local 171

""It doesn't mean that everyone is going to stop working on a particular moment or day," Aniel said. "It means that we are preparing so that the decisions are made in a very significantly different way so that it protects the people of Wisconsin."

"The unions haven't begun to map out a plan for what services would be shut down, he added.

"If it was decided the governor's mansion really wasn't that important and it wasn't that important to heat it or give it electricity or to guard it, then those things wouldn't happen," Aniel said."
{snip}
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_64c8d7a8-3e8c-11e0-9911-001cc4c002e0.html

IOW--The new, new Wisconsin-Nice: "We run Wisconsin. Electoral government is for chumps. The politicos are our cabana boys."

{{{Walker wins in a walk}}}

Posted by: tao9 | February 22, 2011 10:06 PM | Report abuse

"@ Troll @ 9:08

"Uh (that was for you, Kevin;-)), ok."

Huh? What does Kevin have to do with it?
I was responding to your assertion that very few unions supported Walker."

Sorry for the confusion chuck, that's my fault and I take responsibility for it. The other day, yesterday I think, in an exchange with another commentor, Kevin wrote that he had gotten a deal on the word "uh" and therefore used it a lot. I thought it was funny, so rather than just acknowledge what you'd wrote, I thought i'd also add a cute message with "uh" in it as a way to let Kevin know I thought what he'd written was funny. I should have done two different comments. One to you, acknowledging that you had written a comment directed at me, and the second, letting Kevin know I thought his series of comments from yesterday were funny. My bad.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 22, 2011 10:10 PM | Report abuse

"Hey look, Cro-Magnons are capable of a semblance of laughter. Who knew? "

At least I've evolved. Soon, I'll be stone-age homo sapien. And the gap between us will continue to grow.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 22, 2011 10:13 PM | Report abuse

Libya.

As an aside, I feel, as an American, we are superior (a two on a scale of one to ten) for having been born an accidental part of a country that did not pander to this psychopath. Well at least propping up this freak isn't something we did.

So China, how is your decades long investment feeling?
Italy? England?

Relax, if he blows up and burns all of the oil infrastructure, Libya markets just 2% of the worlds' oil, the faster he goes away, the faster that number blows up.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 10:17 PM | Report abuse

"At least I've evolved. Soon, I'll be stone-age homo sapien. And the gap between us will continue to grow."

I've no doubt.

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 10:18 PM | Report abuse

"At least I've evolved. Soon, I'll be stone-age homo sapien. And the gap between us will continue to grow."

Snicker.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 22, 2011 10:23 PM | Report abuse

@shrink: "qb, I like you, I think we could figure this out. We need to have this fight. We have to stop borrowing money to buy off all sides."

I definitely agree its better to have this fight than not to have it. That we have these fights (as vitriolic and as foolish and shallow as they may seem at the time) is actually healthy and democratic. That being said . . . "we have to stop borrowing money to buy of all sides" . . .

If only. The reality is, when it's your budget, what seems an indulgence (or a mystery as to why money is even spent on it) becomes an urgent necessity. If we can just borrow less to buy off some sides, for less, we'll be making serious progress. ;)

One of my main issues with Walker (even though, in the abstract, I agree that the battle should be fought) is that he risks an awful lot for a 100% win he has an 80% win already (which he could lose) and, at some point, a little compromise goes a long way to establishing change.

But there is a larger battle being played out between big government and small government (or, no government, except that which immediately benefits me), so policy compromises may be hard to come by. Which . . . maybe, in the long run, the big ideological battles will serve a large purpose.

I just think, in the microscopic here-and-now, once Walker had serious budget concessions, the grown up thing would have been to take 'em and move forward from there, not draw an implacable line in the sand over an ideological battle that can only, at best, result in a pyrrhic victory.

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | February 22, 2011 10:43 PM | Report abuse

"I think once Walker had serious concessions, take 'em, move forward, no line in the sand, no pyrrhic victory."

I agree.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 10:52 PM | Report abuse

@Troll: "One to you, acknowledging that you had written a comment directed at me, and the second, letting Kevin know I thought his series of comments from yesterday were funny. My bad."

Um, I was referring to my huge supply of "um". I don't traffic in "uh", and, frankly, I don't think much of people who do.

Unless, you know, you think you've got a really good supplier. But it can't be cut with any "er" or "eh". My business partners are only interest in pure "uh". It delivers maximum dyspeptic irony.

No, really. :-D

Posted by: Kevin_Willis | February 22, 2011 11:00 PM | Report abuse

"Isn't that what Qadaffi just claimed? "

The only Walker-Qadaffi comparison I'll make is that both seem to want to go down in flames.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 22, 2011 11:07 PM | Report abuse

"Unless, you know, you think you've got a really good supplier. But it can't be cut with any "er" or "eh". My business partners are only interest in pure "uh". It delivers maximum dyspeptic irony."

It's pure stuff. Snow. And the irony. Sweet, sweet irony. First taste is free, but I gotta warn ya, not everybody can handle it.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 22, 2011 11:08 PM | Report abuse

But what about 'do'h?'

You got a supplier? Americans need it badly.

Posted by: fiona5 | February 22, 2011 11:27 PM | Report abuse

This is inexplicable...or funny,

"The United States has been unable to get Libya's permission to evacuate American citizens from the country, State Department officials said Tuesday, prompting the administration to temper its response to the Libyan crackdown."

Libyan crackdown? Funny!

"State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said that Libyan officials had promised over the weekend to support U.S. efforts to evacuate Americans but that the necessary permits for charter flights hadn't been granted."

Permits? I need not remind you what we don't care about in other places, hint, "we non't need no stinkin' badges."

"What we can't figure out is whether there's just chaos at the airport, which is entirely possible, or whether the Libyans are not cooperating," Crowley said in an interview.""

So the line is, if there are Americans who chose to be in that place, they are on call to CNN.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 11:38 PM | Report abuse

Bahrain is so a few days ago. They'd better wait to die until the killing in Libya is over if they are serious. No one cares about some place with less martyrs than the other martyrs on TV, especially if they are Shia.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 22, 2011 11:50 PM | Report abuse

The cowardly, state Democrats from Wisconsin and Indiana are fleeing to Illinois, land of Obama. They want to be with their own kind around Chicago.

Illinois seeks to borrow $3.7 billion to shore up pension shortfall

Illinois' pension system is one of the most poorly funded in the nation, with less than 40 percent of its $139 billion in liabilities funded, according to state figures.

But the $3.7 billion is a small patch for a very large hole. The teachers pension alone is underfunded by nearly $40 billion. It will receive slightly more than $2 billion from the bond proceeds.

AND this is the teachers pension problem ALONE.


Result: Bankruptcy all around. Yes, they want to be with their own kind. Credit card rich and cash poor. Limosine liberals who like to spend their states dry, raise taxes, and then go begging for bailouts.

Chicagoland is their kind of place. Let them stay there, please!

Posted by: battleground51 | February 23, 2011 4:34 AM | Report abuse

Democrats are creating jobs, at last -- for shuttle services whisking legislators out of state, hotels, restaurants, etc. The DNC will need to start a whole new program called the Legislator Protection Program.

And all this when none of them can coherently explain why government workers need unions and collective bargaining to begin with, nor how there is even such a thing as "bargaining" between unions and government officials and bureaucrats who owe their own jobs to the unions.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 23, 2011 6:31 AM | Report abuse

A fine Jonah Goldberg column exposing the scam and political corruption inherent in public unions.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260359/public-unions-must-go-jonah-goldberg

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 23, 2011 6:56 AM | Report abuse

And all this when none of them can coherently explain why government workers need unions and collective bargaining to begin with

==

As if the guy who claims he "studied Keynes but found him wanting" would even read the explanation, or would have enough freedom of thought to understand it.

We're all entitled to representation in government, what the hell is your conceptual block with reprsentation in the workplace. Sheesh what a dummy.

Everyone who works should be organized. If WWII hadn't interrupted the spread of labor organization we would all be in unions and the middle class wouldn't be calving like the polar ice.

And people now worth ten figures would have to find a way to eek by with a mere nine, the poor dears.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 23, 2011 7:00 AM | Report abuse

Brigade, as always, doing his best turn as a rabid, yet flaccid, attack mutt.

==

The guy alters the posts he quotes. He has about as much honor as a gangbanger who rapes fourteen year old retarded girls. Just block the little swine like everyone else.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 23, 2011 7:10 AM | Report abuse

The investigation in Britain on the Murdoch paper's wiretapping scandal is on-going. Latest revelation that gives a good hint of how Murdoch's operations breed corruption...

"Senior Metropolitan police officers were enjoying private dinners with News of the World editors at the same time as the force was responsible for investigating the phone-hacking scandal, it has been disclosed.

A list of meetings that Scotland Yard has handed over to the Metropolitan Police Authority (MPA), which supervises the service, discloses eight previously unpublicised private dinners and five other occasions during which senior officers met with newspaper executives.

Two of the dinners came at particularly sensitive moments and are likely to revive fears that Scotland Yard's handling of the phone-hacking affair may have been compromised by a desire to avoid alienating the UK's biggest-selling newspaper."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/feb/22/phone-hacking-police-editor-dinners

Posted by: bernielatham | February 23, 2011 7:36 AM | Report abuse

Don't you DARE consider an Oscar for this documentary that might make people think poorly of the the energy industries!

"There is no such thing as bad publicity. But the PR adage seems to have been overlooked by America's energy lobby, whose attacks on a documentary on natural gas drilling have dramatically raised the film's pre-Oscar buzz.

The attacks – including a demand to strike the film, Gasland, from Oscar contention – have brought a fresh burst of public attention to the documentary as well as its subject, a controversial method of natural gas extraction known as hydraulic fracturing."

In the countdown to the 27 February awards ceremony, Energy in Depth, an industry lobbying group set up by Halliburton, BP, Shell and other companies, has stepped up its attacks on Gasland."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/feb/21/oscar-buzz-gasland-engery-lobby

Posted by: bernielatham | February 23, 2011 7:42 AM | Report abuse

Carrying forward shrink2's note on the previous thead .. this *is* class warfare, let's stop shriveling away from calling it that and get it out in the open.

Governor Walker is being pushed by the brothers Koch to take away the representation rights of American workers. Those guys are libertarians, their views are as ugly as they come, and the light of publicity will show that.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 23, 2011 8:14 AM | Report abuse

"As if the guy who claims he "studied Keynes but found him wanting" would even read the explanation, or would have enough freedom of thought to understand it."

Bahahahaha, found him wanting??

Of course, this is the guy who thinks that the Bush tax cuts account for 0.00% of the deficit. Dude finds basic arithmetic to be wanting.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 23, 2011 8:22 AM | Report abuse

All, Morning Roundup posted:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/the_morning_plum_192.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | February 23, 2011 8:44 AM | Report abuse

Prudent advice from Nate Silver...

"Because of the problems with question design, my advice would be simply to disregard the Rasmussen Reports poll, and to view their work with extreme skepticism going forward."

"http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/rasmussen-poll-on-wisconsin-dispute-may-be-biased/#more-6408

Polling is now a propaganda necessity (for those who play the propaganda game). The function it plays is to suggest a consensus of opinion favorable to the propagandist. Beneath that is an understanding of human social behavior and the typical (not absolute, obviously) response to believe or to follow along with an apparent consensus.

Posted by: bernielatham | February 23, 2011 8:48 AM | Report abuse

Dunno if you were ever on The Fix before the comment section crashed, Bernie, but Rasmussen was a frequent object of ridicule on our side and the basis of a lot of triumphal chest-pounding by the other. They're way into outlier territory whenever it comes to supplying grist for the Conservative Things mill.

They poll by calling landlines during the workday, and get er ummm a high proportion of retired people. Among other homebodies.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 23, 2011 9:00 AM | Report abuse

@Kevin_Willi = "I work for a public school system. Since I'm not a teacher, in our system, I'm not in a union and don't have union representation. Fairly close. Also, it would be the same conditions more than half of all public workers continue to work under today, and the same condition almost all public workers labored under pre-1975."

You miss the big picture, you have what pay and benefits you have because of the threat of you organizing. Most of us who are not unionized have what we have to encourage us NOT to organize. That was the anti-union beginnings where they showed us we can be treated better without a union.

Once the break the union like in WI they will then be free to cut our pay and benefits at will and the only recourse you'll have is to quit your job. And as long as the GOP keeps unemployment at 10% there will always be a worker that will take what crumbs they offer.

Please don't be blinded by the conservative rhetoric and feel secure in what you have today, they are breaking the middle class and your name is on the list and the sooner you realize this fact the less damage they'll do before we stop this corporate tyranny by the Koch brothers and others like them...

Posted by: soapm | February 23, 2011 10:00 AM | Report abuse

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