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Posted at 9:19 AM ET, 02/20/2011

Sunday Open Thread

By Greg Sargent

I didn't think the individual mandate would ever lose its special status as the single greatest threat to American liberty in our country's history, but it suddenly seems to be facing a pretty serious challenger in public employee bargaining rights.

By Greg Sargent  | February 20, 2011; 9:19 AM ET
Categories:  Miscellaneous  
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Next: Monday Roundup

Comments

Gentle hint: when just about everyone strikes you as "far left," you're not at the center.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 20, 2011 9:37 AM | Report abuse

Greg, we conservatives can also walk (upright) and chew gum at the same time too. There should be stakeouts at every Dem Wisconsin State Senators' house and place of worship today. Pictures of these fugatives can be found online.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:38 AM | Report abuse

Governor Hosni Mubarak Walker strikes a blow for what The Founding Fathers Intended:

Slavery, Indentured Servitude.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 9:40 AM | Report abuse

Also included is their voting address:

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/w3asp/contact/legislatorpages.aspx?house=Senate&district=16

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:43 AM | Report abuse

God takes sides in the war on Christmas...

"WASHINGTON — High winds whipped through the metropolitan Washington area on Saturday, downing power lines, fueling brush fires and even toppling the National Christmas Tree."

Posted by: bernielatham | February 20, 2011 8:04 AM |

.....................

Solution?

Christmas Windmills. God is trying to send a message to the Deniers, or perhaps he has just been brainwashed by T. Boone Pickens!

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 9:45 AM | Report abuse

Claw/JakeD sure has unleashed his inner Concentration Camp Guard today!!!

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 9:47 AM | Report abuse

This is the Dem Wisconsin State Senator with whom Greg spoke on the Dem's cell phone (so law enforcement could easily obtain his cell phone tower / location):

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/w3asp/contact/legislatorpages.aspx?house=Senate&district=7

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:49 AM | Report abuse

Unhappy Birthers to you;

Unhappy Birthers to you;

Unhappy Birthers dear Karl;

Unhappy Birthers to you.

Birthers; stand up for the truth. Demand that the 2012 Republican Convention include a birth certificate plank.

You are all Great Americans.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 9:51 AM | Report abuse

Citizen tips on the location of Dem Wisconsin State Senators can be called into the Wisconsin State Patrol or Senate Sergeant at Arms:
 
(608) 266-1801 
FAX: (608) 266-0716
Ted.Blazel@legis.state.wi.us

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:54 AM | Report abuse

I'd be surprised if Wisconsin political reporters are NOT staking out their homes and churches today just to get the scoop of the century. All the Republicans need is ONE Dem State Senator for a quorum.

(Don't look now, Greg, but I'm posting on the Birther thread at the same time too ; )

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:58 AM | Report abuse

Claw/JakeD sure has unleashed his inner Concentration Camp Guard today.

I hear he sports a tattoo that reads; Claw/JakeD Hearts Herr Schicklgruber

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Lol @ claw

Posted by: mikefromArlington | February 20, 2011 10:02 AM | Report abuse

Wow. 10 of 12 comments in the Troll Bucket.

I think that birther post of Serwer's really got 'em wound up.

I found a new job, btw! Inspired by Barnum, I have decided to embark upon the greatest Obama conspiracy truth-telling web site EVAR. I am going to be rolling in dough.
.

Posted by: jprestonian | February 20, 2011 10:06 AM | Report abuse

mikefromArlington, my "walking (upright) and chewing gum" retort to Greg's snark was petty funny, if I do say so myself

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Liam-still, I think that jprestonian just called you a "Troll" LOL.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Poor Claw/JakeD.

Swastika the matter? Have the Wisconsin Freedom Fighters upset you? You can not cope with any Resistance to Das Fuhrer Walker?!

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 10:12 AM | Report abuse

"The lukewarm support for unions generally and for government workers unions in particular in the progressive world is partly a legacy of such missteps by unions themselves."

Yeah, the problem is not really about wages and benefits, people in America get better wages and benefits in exchange for hard, caring, competent work (unearned money flowing into star culture, to CEOs and their financiers, belies this, but arguing the fairness of that isn't the topic, for once).

Call me elitist, go ahead, I am what I am, but my kids are going to get the best teachers I can build around them, one way or another. Among elitist public school parents, regardless of political affiliation, there is intense lobbying for the best classrooms. When people with money don't get the teacher they wanted, that is often the trigger to put the kid in private school, where money always talks.

But this, from The Nation article, is what gives me hives,

"This logic is not unusual for construction unions, which operate largely as craft unions—representing workers with a specific craft or skill, who have the ability to negotiate for themselves by withholding that skill. The construction unions have a long history of being an elitist labor force." Embedded within this sentence is the demise of the labor movement in America, which is a tragedy.

Earlier we looked at this graphic. All of those Euro and UK Socialists have something figured out and I don't think it is very complicated.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/02/19/opinion/19blowcht.html?ref=opinion

[The right always warns we will "end up like Greece" unless we make the rich even richer, that looks like an upgrade to me.]

The public employee unions lost their bearings when they ceased to focus on the skills people considered precious (to say nothing of productivity) and focused instead on political deals. Capital will always be better at that. But it is over now, Citizens United was the death knell.

Now we can know about our interconnectedness that we are all one and that, that bell may toll for we, not just AFSCME, but I am not buying it, not when I look at that graphic and realize, my kids better have a highly refined if not special skill set 12 years from now.


Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Yay!!! Citizens United was the death knell.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 10:21 AM | Report abuse

Apparently the news reporters and pundits are all suffering from acute irony deficiency.

They appear to not have noticed that the biggest objectors to the worker protests in Madison, Wi. are the Tea Party crowd that kept flocking to DC to protest against Government.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 10:22 AM | Report abuse

School Teachers have highly refined skill sets, but I realize Shrink that you hate Unions, so carry on setting up your strawman, and setting it on fire.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 10:25 AM | Report abuse

Speaking of irony, does Greg know the relationship between the existence of the individual mandate and the unions?

Liam, why does The Nation attack trade unions for being elitist? If construction workers are elitist, what does that say about how the author feels about public employees?

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 10:29 AM | Report abuse

Just so you know shrink by way of acknowledgment, every time you post that graph, I look at it again (I should just bookmark it I guess) and feel sick.

See y'all.

Posted by: lmsinca | February 20, 2011 10:30 AM | Report abuse

What's next after crushing collective bargaining rights? Weekends?

Unions gave us that too...

I wonder what happens when wages plummet around the country? Will independents rush out to thank repubs in 2012?

I think repubs think the electorate is going to be the same in 2012. It won't be.

Not everyone has been brainwashed by FoxPropaganda.

Posted by: Alex3 | February 20, 2011 10:31 AM | Report abuse

"I look at it again...and feel sick."

It is devastating, but I am sorry. The point is not to make good people feel bad, the point is, the left better not fall into the same trap as the right and see its halcyon days in the rear view mirror.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 10:39 AM | Report abuse

Shrink, I told you to carry on setting up your strawman. If you have to ask me about what the Nation thinks, then you are clearly not thinking for yourself, so apparently you also lack those "highly refined skill sets" that you claim Union members do.

Teachers and Nurses work hard, are underpaid, and elitists , who sit on their Arses all day, talking rubbish to addled minds, instead of doing anything constructive, love to attack them.

A nation without Shrinks can survive, but a nation without Teachers, can not.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 10:39 AM | Report abuse

Shrink, I told you to carry on setting up your strawman. If you have to ask me about what the Nation thinks, then you are clearly not thinking for yourself, so apparently you also lack those "highly refined skill sets" that you claim Union members do.

Teachers and Nurses work hard, are underpaid, and elitists , who sit on their Arses all day, talking rubbish to addled minds, instead of doing anything constructive, love to attack them.

A nation without Shrinks can survive, but a nation without Teachers, can not.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 10:42 AM | Report abuse

You make me laugh! Don't stop.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 10:43 AM | Report abuse

Wall Of SHAME............Here's a list of every Democrat Senator who ran from their duty, and betrayed the people of Wisconsin (courtesy of Rhonda L. Blair):

CARPENTER, TIM, DEM. − District 3.Mailing address:  2957 South 38th Street, Milwaukee, WI  53215Capitol office:  19 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−8535E−mail address:  Sen.Carpenter@legis.wisconsin.gov

CULLEN, TIMOTHY F., DEM. − District 15.Mailing address:  3711 N. Spring Hill Drive, Janesville, WI  53545Capitol office:  108 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608 266−2253E−mail address:  Sen.Cullen@legis.wisconsin.gov

COGGS, SPENCER, DEM. − District 6.Mailing address:  7819 W. Potomac Ave., Milwaukee, WI  53222Capitol office:  109 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−2500E−mail address:  Sen.Coggs@legis.wisconsin.gov

ERPENBACH, JON, DEM. − District 27.Mailing address:  7194 Belle Fontaine Blvd., Middleton, WI  53562Capitol office:  106 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−6670E−mail address:  Sen.Erpenbach@legis.wisconsin.gov

HANSEN, DAVE, DEM. − District 30.Mailing address:  3489 Blackwolf Run, Green Bay, WI  54311Capitol office:  5 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−5670E−mail address:  Sen.Hansen@legis.wisconsin.gov

HOLPERIN, JIM, DEM. − District 12.Mailing address:  3575 Monheim Road, Conover, WI  54516Capitol office:  126 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−2509E−mail address:  Sen.Holperin@legis.wisconsin.gov

JAUCH, ROBERT, DEM. − District 25.Mailing address:  5271 South Maple Drive, Poplar, WI  54864Capitol office:  415 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−3510E−mail address:  Sen.Jauch@legis.wisconsin.gov

LARSON, CHRIS, DEM. − District 7.Mailing address:  3261 S. Herman Street, Milwaukee, WI  53207Capitol office:  22 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−7505E−mail address:  Sen.Larson@legis.wisconsin.gov

LASSA, JULIE M., DEM. − District 24.Mailing address:  4901 Beaver Dam Road, Stevens Point, WI  54481Capitol office:  7 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−3123E−mail address:  Sen.Lassa@legis.wisconsin.gov

RISSER, FRED A., DEM. − District 26.Mailing address:  100 Wisconsin Avenue, Unit 501, Madison, WI 53703Capitol office:  130 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−1627E−mail address:  Sen.Risser@legis.wisconsin.gov

TAYLOR, LENA C., DEM. − District 4.Mailing address:  1518 West Capitol, Milwaukee, 53206Capitol office:  20 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−5810E−mail address:  Sen.Taylor@legis.wisconsin.gov

MILLER, MARK, DEM. − District 16.Mailing address:  4903 Roigan Terrace, Monona, WI  53716Capitol office:  206 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−9170E−mail address:  Sen.Miller@legis.wisconsin.gov

VINEHOUT, KATHLEEN, DEM. − District 31.Mailing address:  W1490 Cesler Valley Road, Alma, WI  54610Capitol office:  3 South, Capitol;  Tel. (608) 266−8546E−mail address:  Sen.Vinehout@legis.wisconsin.gov

WIRCH, ROBERT W., DEM. − District 22.Mailing address:  3007 Springbrook Road, Pleasant Prairie, WI 53158Capitol office:  127 South Capitol;  Tel. (608) 267−8979

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 10:45 AM | Report abuse

""the left better not fall into the same trap as the right and see its halcyon days in the rear view mirror.""

Of course, but so many on the left are playing the wrong game. I see it here all the time and probably in about 50% or more of the left punditry as well. Obama and the rabbit hole.

Posted by: lmsinca | February 20, 2011 10:45 AM | Report abuse

ou make me laugh! Don't stop.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 10:43 AM

..................

And you make me sick. You are just another elitist who has found a way to attack American Labor, which is the victim. It is no surprise that Clawrence embraced your position. You might as well be a member of the Tea Party, because you are just as much an enemy of the working class as they are.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Aren't there a few Patriots around to effecuate Citizen Arrests in Janesville, Middleton, Green Bay, Conover, Poplar, Stevens Point, Madison, Milwaukee, Monona, Alma, and Pleasant Prairie, WI?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 10:58 AM | Report abuse

Careful, shrink2, next he will accuse YOU of being JakeD too.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 11:00 AM | Report abuse

I think it's pertinent, so will drop this in from the last thread.

I appreciated [Bernie's Saturday] post on education and attitudes toward teachers. It's a complex dynamic at work, including the fact that a lot of very bright women, who used to have a choice between being teachers or nurses if they wanted a job, have now entered fields like medicine and law that traditionally have meant more prestige.

I use to think there was little need for the extensive instruction in pedagogy that schools of education require and just a lot more emphasis needed on courses with real subject matter content. I still think that's true to some extent, particularly for high school teachers. But the semester I spent mentoring a number of inner city children in reading was a real eye opener for me. I saw so many gifted, dedicated teachers and realized that their curriculum, certainly much of it inspired by their mutual training, was both innovative and effective. It made me much less of an education snob.

And there has always been a range of teachers, unions or not. Getting rid of reasonable union protections would just add more stress to a job that is already remarkably challenging.

Posted by: AllButCertain | February 20, 2011 11:06 AM | Report abuse

Ims, the country, our culture, demands leadership, it will latch onto anything so long as it seems safer than having no plan at all. If the left buys the nostalgia, the conservative view, to protect anything and everything we have from our enemies, or ideally, set the clock back, they cease to be relevant. There has to be a new peoples' movement, modeled on the places where countries have succeeded within their borders (not always by expansion). I think our culture, left and right, can't understand it has to accept the successful models of cultural if not the business models of euro-socialism, or it will collapse, perhaps to a condition comparable to the other countries our size (there are only a few). We don't get to stay the same and we sure don't get to backwards.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Jake was one of those guys who snitched on everyone who spoke while the teacher was out of the room.

If the Chinese conquered the USA Jake would be snitching on his neighbors in exchange for small privileges, or maybe for even less than that.

What a sick little runt you are, Jake.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 20, 2011 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Hmm, back out those corporate tax breaks and the Wisconsin deficit goes away.

Problem solved.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 20, 2011 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Waiting for Comrade skip to join Comrade claw...

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 20, 2011 11:21 AM | Report abuse

I've asked the post to remove the home addresses before someones family gets hurt.

How sick.

Posted by: Alex3 | February 20, 2011 11:31 AM | Report abuse

"I think our culture, left and right, can't understand it has to accept the successful models of cultural if not the business models of euro-socialism"

With that one phrase you probably lost the short term support of clawrence.
What seems to me to be a statement that is axiomatic runs across the grain of the American exceptionalism crowd. They want everyone to be serfs and peasants while the top 2% continue to screw everyone over.

Posted by: filmnoia | February 20, 2011 11:41 AM | Report abuse

Alex3, you are aware that the Wisconsin State Patrol is looking for these Dems (at least the ones who haven't fled out of State)? I am not urging anyone to "hurt" anyone, nor have I posted rifle scope target symbols.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 11:42 AM | Report abuse

GREG --

please do something about JakeD/Clawrence. He is a disgusting degenerate who is trying to get some Democrats murdered.

DO YOU WANT TO SEE ANOTHER GABBY GIFFORDS?

This guy has advocated assasinating Demoratic public officials in the past. Now he is posting the addresses of others.

WHY DOES THE POST ALLOW THIS KIND OF SLIME TO SPREAD THEIR DISEASE?

Is there no way to ban slime like this?

Posted by: fiona5 | February 20, 2011 11:46 AM | Report abuse

You also need to ask the Wisconsin State Senate webmaster to take off these addresses from its web site too. It's a matter of public record.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 11:48 AM | Report abuse

They are in Illinois. Their families still live in those addresses you posted. Sooner or later someone who has been watching too much Glen Beck and believes the protests are related to Satan, will do something.

You're sick. Should I post your home address? Should I inform folks where your family lives? It can be done.

Posted by: Alex3 | February 20, 2011 11:51 AM | Report abuse

Just because claw is too repulsive to get a job or have a life, doesn't mean just you should allow him to monopolize your website

Posted by: fiona5 | February 20, 2011 11:52 AM | Report abuse

They are in Illinois. Their families still live in those addresses you posted. Sooner or later someone who has been watching too much Glen Beck and believes the protests are related to Satan, will do something.

You're sick. Should I post your home address? Should I inform folks where your family lives? It can be done.

Posted by: Alex3 | February 20, 2011 11:53 AM | Report abuse

I have never advocated assasinating (or even assassinating) anyone. I want Dem State Senators captured ALIVE to make a quorum. They are no good to me dead.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 11:53 AM | Report abuse

Here's the deal:

Bureaucrats, local, state and federal, tend to multiply like bunny rabbits, especially under Democrat regimes.

Bureaucrats tend to be liberals and being liberals are socialists so they expect the state to take good care of them. They become hardcore unionistas.

Unions are socialistic, organized syndicates and are 100%, Democrat party, all the way. Unions and the Democrat party have a symbionic relationship.

The union members are demanding security for their $100,000.00 salaries from taxpayers even as many of those taxpayers are scraping by or have no jobs at all.

Local, State, and federal governments are going broke from coast to coast under the weight of bureaucrat salaries, pensions, and entitlements.

Democrats got crushed last November because Americans were desperate for REAL change.

The union riots in Wisconsin are looking pretty bad to most Americans.

There may be more CHANGE coming in 2012 and it will not be the Obama, chump change again.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 20, 2011 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Alex3, they are not all in Illinois, and I am not a public figure who has listed my home address on the web. See the difference?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 11:57 AM | Report abuse

"...What seems to me to be a statement that is axiomatic runs across the grain of the American exceptionalism crowd. They want everyone to be serfs and peasants while the top 2% continue to screw everyone over."

Yes, this is clear. But, why? The left needs leaders that can mobilize the downwardly mobile, not pit what is left of the deals made between Democrats and their public employee unions against the angry downwardly mobile people who are ready to have their anger mobilized (the popularity of birtherism is exhibit A).

I can't imagine the idea behind vilifying trade unions for bargaining their skill set. What is the alternative, their Citizens United rights? Things will stay this way until the left gets leadership.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 11:58 AM | Report abuse

battleground51, I know a few diehard union members who are actually conservative Republicans who simply disagree with the political bent. They are certainly in the minority.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 12:01 PM | Report abuse


The Wisconsin, state senators are cowards of the lowest order. They are not for the people. They are for the unions and the Democrat party, power base.

If they do not return, they should be fired for dereliction of duty and the governor should appoint replacements.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 20, 2011 12:04 PM | Report abuse

For the record, I have never vilified trade unions for bargaining their skill set. I actually work with journeymen and the ICBO a lot.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 12:06 PM | Report abuse

clawrence12;

Yes, many union members are conservative and vote Republican. It drives the unionistas batty and if they could put a stop to it, they would, but America is still free.

That's the union weakness and the socialist weakness, in America. Freedom!

Posted by: battleground51 | February 20, 2011 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) was great on Face the Nation this morning.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 12:11 PM | Report abuse

"Yes, this is clear. But, why? The left needs leaders that can mobilize the downwardly mobile,..."

I think Obama understands this, but doesn't seem to be that leader. He's too much the corporatist. Besides, anyone who expouses a true change in the paradigm will be "dirt surfing" before they can get anything done. The oligarchy, with their Right Wing tools, will hold on for dear life. Things will have to get much worse before we see the type of mobilization that you are talking about.
One of the things that might hasten it is a media that acts as a corrective to FOX, which trades in on fear and resentment, for a message that we are all in this lifeboat together. As an aging Baby Boomer I don't expect a change in this direction in my lifetime, but you still have to "keep pushing the boulder up the hill", because the only alternative is to be crushed.

Posted by: filmnoia | February 20, 2011 12:16 PM | Report abuse

I will say this:

In America, you should be free to join a union AND free not to if that is your choice.

All union voting should be in private.

Unions should be politically neutral.

Unions must stop protecting the lame, lazy, and incompetent. I was in a union and saw it happen. The laziest, most loud-mouthed complainers got all of the attention.

The quiet ones who did most of the work were ignored.

Replace the squeaky wheels. Don't oil 'em up to quiet them down.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 20, 2011 12:18 PM | Report abuse

Rare day off so going to capitalize the glorious photons.

On elitism and teachers/unions... I've worked both in the trades and in schools. There are profound differences between teaching and brick-laying or cabinetry or tile work or plumbing etc. The most significant, of course, is that trades deal with stuff (and only one sort of stuff) and teaching deals with people.

What makes a skilled cop? What would make for a cop deemed among an elite? How do you get your cops to that status? How do you measure it?

Going away now.

Posted by: bernielatham | February 20, 2011 12:35 PM | Report abuse

Democrat Party. Bureaucrat salaries.

Got It.

Posted by: AllButCertain | February 20, 2011 1:03 PM | Report abuse

filmnoia, I agree, except I do expect a change in direction in my lifetime. This is unsustainable. No more bubbles to point to, to pretend things are going to get better. And wrapping this or that sector in special victim status won't work to unite the country.

A message we are all in this together, yeah, that is the correct course, but the liberals are at least as bad as the right in attacking anyone not buying their political line. I was pretty sure we elected Obama to lead the we-are-all-in-this-together thing, but who knows...maybe the timing, we're just not ready yet, the organized right has to be...metabolized via poverty perhaps. I actually am pretty sure Obama thinks that, that America was not ready for him, but that's a whole 'nother conversation. I know Obama's election made what we hope for possible. At least we didn't re-elect The Clintons.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 1:22 PM | Report abuse

" I know Obama's election made what we hope for possible."

Hi shrink! I'm not intending snark with my question. And, in the immortal "shout heard 'round the world" from the great Admirable Akbhar, "It's [not] a trap!" Just curious what you, and the others here that voted for him, thought his elevation to the Presidency would make possible? Maybe you could name the top 5 things that you (all) thought was possible with his election?

Thanks! Hope everyone is having a great morning!

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 20, 2011 1:35 PM | Report abuse

Just because claw is too repulsive to get a job or have a life, doesn't mean just you should allow him to monopolize your website

Posted by: fiona5 | February 20, 2011 11:52 AM
==============================

Looks like fiona is projecting again.

Posted by: Brigade | February 20, 2011 1:55 PM | Report abuse


A nation without Shrinks can survive, but a nation without Teachers, can not.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 20, 2011 10:42 AM
=========================================

Are we in danger of running out of teachers? Didn't think so. But as long as the standards are so low, just about anyone can hack it as a grade or HS teacher, whereas a functioning brain is required to become a shrink.

Posted by: Brigade | February 20, 2011 1:59 PM | Report abuse

TO.......claw

RE:
Greg, we conservatives can also walk (upright) and chew gum at the same time too. There should be stakeouts at every Dem Wisconsin State Senators' house and place of worship today. Pictures of these fugatives can be found online.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:38 AM

''''''''''''''
I have always noticed that people will never laugh at anything that is not based on truth.

- Will Rogers
''''''''''''''

claw-
SORRY, your post was not funny.
The LOL you saw was laughing at YOU! (not the post)

smd

Posted by: smd1234 | February 20, 2011 2:05 PM | Report abuse

smd1234, did you ask Mike that?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 2:08 PM | Report abuse

BO is a reflection of America as IT IS.

The GOP is a reflection of America as IT WAS.

You can be sure that the "corporatist" label is not hurtful, because it has truth.

America is made up of hundreds of thousands of corporatists, and would-be corporatists.

America is nothing like Russia in 1917.
The people here are corporatists, except for the entrepreneurs on their way to becoming corporatists, and the other would-be corporatists.

Citizens United has guaranteed the long trend will continue in the direction of corporations.

smd

''''''''''''''''
"Yes, this is clear. But, why? The left needs leaders that can mobilize the downwardly mobile,..."

I think Obama understands this, but doesn't seem to be that leader. He's too much the corporatist. Besides, anyone who expouses a true change in the paradigm will be "dirt surfing" before they can get anything done. The oligarchy, with their Right Wing tools, will hold on for dear life. Things will have to get much worse before we see the type of mobilization that you are talking about.
One of the things that might hasten it is a media that acts as a corrective to FOX, which trades in on fear and resentment, for a message that we are all in this lifeboat together. As an aging Baby Boomer I don't expect a change in this direction in my lifetime, but you still have to "keep pushing the boulder up the hill", because the only alternative is to be crushed.

Posted by: filmnoia | February 20, 2011 12:16 PM

Posted by: smd1234 | February 20, 2011 2:17 PM | Report abuse

clawrence12 "I have never advocated assasinating (or even assassinating) anyone. I want Dem State Senators captured ALIVE to make a quorum. They are no good to me dead"

Look you blithering idiot, get this through your stupid THICK skull. There is NOTHING the law can do to these senators. N-O-T-H-I-N-G....got that doofus? Anybody lays one finger on ANY of these senators, you are looking at not just hefty court costs but possible jail time. Idiots like you give honest Republicans a bad name.

Posted by: clintt5 | February 20, 2011 2:18 PM | Report abuse

TO.......claw

Your saying it was funny
does not make it so.

It just wasn't.
The LOL was at YOU.

smd

''''''''''''''''''
mikefromArlington, my "walking (upright) and chewing gum" retort to Greg's snark was petty funny, if I do say so myself

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 10:06 AM

Posted by: smd1234 | February 20, 2011 2:22 PM | Report abuse

TO.......claw

I TOO laughed at the notion that someone on this board was so loony as to write what you did:

There should be stakeouts at every Dem Wisconsin State Senators' house and place of worship today. Pictures of these fugatives can be found online.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:38 AM

Posted by: smd1234 | February 20, 2011 2:27 PM | Report abuse

clintt5, are you an honest Republican?

smd1234, did you ask Mike (it's a "yes" or "no" question)?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 3:32 PM | Report abuse

One of the things that might hasten it is a media that acts as a corrective to FOX, which trades in on fear and resentment, for a message that we are all in this lifeboat together. As an aging Baby Boomer I don't expect a change in this direction in my lifetime, but you still have to "keep pushing the boulder up the hill", because the only alternative is to be crushed.

Posted by: filmnoia | February 20, 2011 12:16 PM
=========================================

Speaking to people (leftists) who trade on fear and resentment: there actually is an American alternative to pushing the boulder up the hill or getting crushed by it. You can get some education or specialized training and move around the boulder; some people will inevitably be crushed by life's little competitions, but you don't have to be one of them---unless you're like Liam. Shrink goes to all the expense and trouble of becoming successful in his chosen field and is told by Liam that the country can survive without his kind but not without bartenders (or whatever it was). I'll grant that education and job training are of paramount importance in a competitive world; however, a "union" (and I use the term loosely) which bargains with polititicans for taxpayer money is only needed where true competition does not exist. Get back to me after you've stopped the flood of illegal immigrants working in packing plants at jobs "no one else wants" (at least not at 50 cents an hour).

Posted by: Brigade | February 20, 2011 4:26 PM | Report abuse

Yikes, I thought I could keep my troll hunter switched off. So much for that plan.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 4:51 PM | Report abuse

"I'll grant that education and job training are of paramount importance in a competitive world;"

Yet it's the GOP and you on the Right that don't want to fork over the dough it's going to take to retrain the workers who will have to go back to school to learn a new trade, or are they supposed to absorb the full pay themselves on the low paying jobs some have been able to get, after their good paying industrial jobs were sent overseas?
If the right is so concerned about the American worker and being competitive then how come they go nuts every time the issue of raising the minimum wage is brought up. Prices for goods and services will continue to increase as wages stagnate. Don't you clowns on the Right realize that somewhere along the line there becomes a unsustainable tipping point?

"Get back to me after you've stopped the flood of illegal immigrants working in packing plants at jobs "no one else wants"

When will the Right support penalizing those employers that hire illegals? Why not have employers required to have workers show proof of legal residency, or is that considered another encumberance upon American business?

Posted by: filmnoia | February 20, 2011 4:52 PM | Report abuse

http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/policy/EPI_PolicyMemorandum_173.pdf

Study comparing the salaries of public Wisconsin employees and their private sector counterparts. Conservatives, the author is making a point that Sean Hannity disagrees with so, let's just assume you all think that he's a nazi, socialist, death panelist who is a diabolical genius and dumber than your dog.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 4:55 PM | Report abuse

"A nation without Shrinks can survive, but a nation without Teachers, can not."

I guess we can survive without shrinks, per se, but when we were getting the hospitals set up post Katrina, one of the biggest issues was the lack of shrinks. Not that we had an abundance of cardiologists or ID specialists, but it was the psychiatrists that the medicine docs were clamoring for.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/are_wisconsins_state_and_local.html

Shrink, perhaps this link might better state a point I was trying to make a while back. My biggest qualm with this essentially forced renegotiations of public workers is that public workers took a pay cut in comparison to their private counterparts, with the promise of benefits later on. So now, not only did the workers work all these years on reduced wages, now they are probably not going to get the benefits of the pay cuts.

Rich people aren't the only ones who deserve to keep their money.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 5:02 PM | Report abuse

"Get back to me after you've stopped the flood of illegal immigrants working in packing plants at jobs "no one else wants"

When will the Right support penalizing those employers that hire illegals? Why not have employers required to have workers show proof of legal residency, or is that considered another encumberance upon American business?

Posted by: filmnoia | February 20, 2011 4:52 PM
==========================================

See, we can find common ground. I agree with you.

-------

DDAWD, Please keep your troll hunter turned on. Your last comment was the most intelligent post you've made in a week.

Posted by: Brigade | February 20, 2011 5:19 PM | Report abuse

""Greg, we conservatives can also walk (upright) and chew gum at the same time too. There should be stakeouts at every Dem Wisconsin State Senators' house and place of worship today. Pictures of these fugatives can be found online.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:38 AM | Report abuse """
-----------------------------------------

1. fugitives is not spelled "fugatives"
2. Absolutely, they must be criminals! But then, well, oh noesss, Abe Lincoln was a criminal too!!

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/20/lincoln-fled-state-wisconsin/

TODAY'S LESSON: Research prior to making a fool of oneself.

Posted by: Nicole9 | February 20, 2011 5:26 PM | Report abuse

Thank God that the spelling police have finally arrived!

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 5:58 PM | Report abuse

@Brigade 5:19:

Please keep your troll hunter turned on. I still await an intelligent post from you.

Posted by: DinOH | February 20, 2011 6:01 PM | Report abuse

@Brigade 5:19


==========================================

Please keep your troll hunter turned on. I still await an intelligent post from you.

Posted by: DinOH | February 20, 2011 6:03 PM | Report abuse

"TODAY'S LESSON: Research prior to making a fool of oneself."

You caught a typo and read Think Progress. So impressed. You should fit right in.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 20, 2011 6:29 PM | Report abuse

Whew what a day so far...let's see what the cat dragged in...

Thank you DD and Brigade...shrinks v teachers, funny, I am the product of great teachers. You people are teachers too. Ecclesiastes is my favorite book in the only book most people ever even had a chance to read in their lives for several centuries of our family history of ideas, but talking about teachers here has to be about politics.

"So now, not only did the workers work all these years on reduced wages, now they are probably not going to get the benefits of the pay cuts." This is true and no one should ever pretend to work in exchange for someone pretending to pay them. That is part of the race to the bottom.

I think elite education is the only way to salvage the American condition, it is the only path to exceptionalism. That is the shortest way to say it it.

Charter schools are not the way there, no child left...nope, home schooling is absurd in this context (international competitiveness), AFSCME is not interested in the topic and the only question is, what comes next for public schools. They can't be looted, but they can be made worse. Too bad elitism has become the dirty way to be, an insult thrown by both parties; so we'll embrace the race to the bottom, proud to be average, is that the end of history?

Republicans, if elitism is a bad thing then your caricature of socialism has infected your mind. What if the new model of socialism produces smarter and smarter people? We threaten cave dwellers like ObL, but those people are not the threat we face..


Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 6:33 PM | Report abuse

I'm sure there was no criminal behavior, rather than fear of depositions. FOA All the Way!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/business/20mozilo.html?_r=3

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 20, 2011 6:41 PM | Report abuse

"Republicans, if elitism is a bad thing then your caricature of socialism has infected your mind."

What makes you think conservatives or Republicans are against "elite" education?

"What if the new model of socialism produces smarter and smarter people?"

New model? Have you noticed that America's elementary and secondary schools generally lag far behind while America's colleges and universities lead the world by a wide margin? Which are more "socialist"?

We don't have to worry about socialism ever doing anything better than freedom.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 20, 2011 6:43 PM | Report abuse

"What if the new model of socialism produces smarter and smarter people?"

Hi shrink, hope all is well? In what way[s] is the new model of socialism different than the old model?

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 20, 2011 6:43 PM | Report abuse

shrink,

btw, I hope you aren't suggesting that home schooling can't deliver "elite" education, because that certainly isn't the case.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 20, 2011 6:45 PM | Report abuse

"This is true and no one should ever pretend to work in exchange for someone pretending to pay them. That is part of the race to the bottom. "

What do you mean by this? That public employees don't work hard?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 6:57 PM | Report abuse

Alas, a graph...contra Charles/can/Blow:

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/01/world-income-inequality.html

Shameful.

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 7:14 PM | Report abuse

That graph is confusing. How do you read it?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 7:34 PM | Report abuse

DD, no, public employees do not work hard in the old model of socialism, that is history. New model, heck yeah.

tao, what does your graph mean, in your mind? This is hilarious, Charles/can/Blow, no one ever thought of that before.

qb, no, it can't, sorry. Maybe and only maybe if your parents are elite educators with nothing but time on their hands it can, but otherwise, no, it can't.

Troll, the new model of socialism is winning, that's how it is different. Unless you are only looking at America's richest people, in which case, "we" are still winning.

But if the game now has become how we compare to China and India and Brazil and Indonesia (the countries with lots and lots of people like the USA), then we have already lost. I thought we were better than that.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 7:48 PM | Report abuse

hi DD,

Here's a map guide for the graph (easier to send you there than recap it here):

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/the-haves-and-the-have-nots/

The chart re-inforces political positions of both sides of the issue.

{{{My favorite description of the American economy is that it's more like a rain forest than a machine}}}

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 8:06 PM | Report abuse

"This is hilarious..."

Guilty, that was lame.

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 8:08 PM | Report abuse

Please keep your troll hunter turned on. I still await an intelligent post from you.

Posted by: DinOH | February 20, 2011 6:03 PM
====================================

Troll hunter is for those who can't function in a fair and open debate involving a rational exchange of ideas. It is for those who don't want to READ someone else's posts. The echo chamber beckons you. Moron.

Posted by: Brigade | February 20, 2011 8:11 PM | Report abuse

You caught a typo and read Think Progress. So impressed. You should fit right in.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 20, 2011 6:29 PM
========================================

Does he/she do windows, too? Or just spell checking?

Posted by: Brigade | February 20, 2011 8:16 PM | Report abuse

quarterback1, more and more homeschoolers are getting into top universities:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2006/4/17/homeschoolers-a-small-but-growing-minority/

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 8:21 PM | Report abuse

"New model? Have you noticed that America's elementary and secondary schools generally lag far behind while America's colleges and universities lead the world by a wide margin? Which are more "socialist"? We don't have to worry about socialism ever doing anything better than freedom. Posted by: quarterback1"

Among the reasons that America's colleges and Universities are so far ahead are that they are heavily subsidized, by the States, for public institutions, and y private donors and federal and State money for the private schools.
But have no fear, with governors like Wall Street Fohn Kasich in charge, Ohio's excellent state university system is headed for mediocrity as fast as John can drive it there, since he knows all the good Republican talking points like reverse discrimination and end tenure and make professors teach full time and so forth. Biggest Kasichism is we are broke by the way.

AND, one of the important points everyone ignores is that so many of the Foreign Students studying in America are fully subsidized by their national Governments, something that is also anathema to republicans, even if "We could afford it."

Give your party a few more years and they will trash America's Universities they way they trashed everything else they have taken an interest in.

Posted by: ceflynline | February 20, 2011 8:23 PM | Report abuse

To answer quarterback1's question, elementary and secondary schools generally are more socialist.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 8:42 PM | Report abuse

""New model? Have you noticed that America's elementary and secondary schools generally lag far behind while America's colleges and universities lead the world by a wide margin? Which are more "socialist"? We don't have to worry about socialism ever doing anything better than freedom. Posted by: quarterback1""

10 Now let's guess what made America's University System so good:

100 America sank oodles of money into the system, paying for all kinds of research that regularly got derided as worthless. Anyone with any talent in Science or Engineering got to investigate almost anything that interested them, like bionic bugs and mechanical fish and mechanical walkers. Self serving Congressmen, (Yes, William Proxmire was one of the worst) made political points attacking them on the floor of the House and senate.

But all that money attracted the best technical minds to Academia, where some of them were not only intuitive researchers but also splendid teachers.

And from the late thirties to the late seventies the money kept rolling in, the Universities kept adding unusual fields like Information technology, and America Kept inventing things and advancing the borders of science.

If you want to know just what the Republicans hate about academia, goto 100, else continue.

Came Reagan and Raganomics and spending money for Ohio State to work on mechanical walkers became politically taboo.

Because There was not only Voodoo Reaganomics operating but Voodoo republican Science in control, where politicians decided what science would learn and made religious orthodoxy a prime element of good republican orthodox Science.

So we deny evolution, global warming, environmental pollution, safe medicines, and anything else that Republicans divine to be unscientific, and also unprofitable for Republican Corporations that find environmental issues bad for the bottom line.

Now academia is to be expected to submit to republican Governors who need to cut budgets because they regularly injudiciously cut taxes for their friends.

Now to deal with your babble, objecting to all of this, GOTO 10

End (But you should never get to this point.)

Posted by: ceflynline | February 20, 2011 8:47 PM | Report abuse

shrink,

Home schooling isn't for everyone, but you're just plain wrong. Home schooling produces some of the best students in the country. I could give you first-hand proof.

cef,

"Among the reasons that America's colleges and Universities are so far ahead are that they are heavily subsidized, by the States, for public institutions, and y private donors and federal and State money for the private schools."

This is just ideology talking. Other countries have much more "socialized" university systems. Indeed, I constantly read complaints by liberals here and elsewhere about how we lag behind in that regard.

And you conveniently dodged the comparative point I made -- our elementary and secondary schools are much more fully subsidized and socialized than colleges and universities. But the latter vastly outperform the former, even as far as standards have fallen.

"AND, one of the important points everyone ignores is that so many of the Foreign Students studying in America are fully subsidized by their national Governments, something that is also anathema to republicans, even if "We could afford it.""

You're proving my point, not yours.

"Give your party a few more years and they will trash America's Universities they way they trashed everything else they have taken an interest in."

Way to finish strong.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 20, 2011 9:10 PM | Report abuse

quarterback1:

goto 10

Posted by: ceflynline | February 20, 2011 9:13 PM | Report abuse

ceflynline, goto heII

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 20, 2011 9:20 PM | Report abuse

"Way to finish strong."

Heh.

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 20, 2011 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Anyone receiving an elite, early (before college) education is also being heavily home schooled. Good schools depend upon home schooling, learning and home schooling can not be distinguished. Schools can not educate kids from homes where ignorance is aok and taking kids out of school to do home schooling is a sad alternative to schools where ignorance is aok.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 9:41 PM | Report abuse

cef,

I went to 10. There was nothing there. But thanks for that perfect example of your reasoning and argumentation, which consists of a closed feedback loop of recursive fallacies.

You're not cute or "bright," as bernie flatters you. You're just a jacka**.

Say, when you get around to it you might explain how US colleges and universities are still the envy of the world even though you claim they were defunded starting 30 years ago.

You can't even keep your assinine talking points straight.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 20, 2011 9:44 PM | Report abuse

""Just curious what you, and the others here that voted for him, thought his elevation to the Presidency would make possible? Maybe you could name the top 5 things that you (all) thought was possible with his election?""

1-5: Hope, that's it. For a better tomorrow, clean, healthy, educated and prosperous for everyone willing to work. Free from war would have been nice but we were never promised a rose garden.

Posted by: lmsinca | February 20, 2011 9:59 PM | Report abuse

tao, I get the x-axis of the graph, but the y-axis just seems weird to me. Why use percentile of wealth? I think percentage of wealth would be a far more better representation of inequality than percentile. This is especially true when you are talking about the 100th percentile, which is a capless range of wealth. The graph shows that the poor people in the US are well off, but I don't think it shows that inequality is less here.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 10:03 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps they're funded too much (gasp!), or more to the point, too much funding targeted in order to reach a conclusion favored by the funder (typically a government entity).

Letter of resignation to the American Physical Society;
Harold Lewis, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of California

http://news-starextra.com/blog/?tag=ucsb

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 10:08 PM | Report abuse

"The graph shows that the poor people in the US are well off, but I don't think it shows that inequality is less here."

Yup, perhaps. The chart, most of all, gives context to Mr. Blow's Eeyore act.

The horizontal axis is percentile of income not (capless) wealth. Given the rhetoric one would think the US curve wouldn't be as flat.

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 10:20 PM | Report abuse

"or more to the point, too much funding targeted in order to reach a conclusion favored by the funder (typically a government entity)."

So you're in favor of good schools unless having good schools is evidence of the efficacy of government spending?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 10:30 PM | Report abuse

Gaddafi's son, Sayf al-Islam, has warned of civil war in the country. His comments came in a lengthy TV address to the nation broadcast as anti-government protests spread to the capital Tripoli...criticising protesters, he also held out the promise of significant political reforms [held out promises, how droll].

He admitted that the police and army had made "mistakes", but said the death toll was far lower than reported [it always is, dead people don't talk]. He said opposition groups and outsiders were trying to transform Libya into a group of small states [contrary to everything everyone else is saying] . If they succeeded, he said, foreign investment would stop [why, no one would use oil anymore?].


Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 10:41 PM | Report abuse

Seeee yaaaa....

In another blow to Gaddafi, representatives of the Warfla tribe, Libya's biggest, endorsed the protests.

Libya's envoy to the Arab League, Abdel Moneim al-Honi, also announced he was "joining the revolution" in "protest against the acts of repression and violence against the demonstrators.

Too bad for him (and the Amazonian Guard), The Guide can't roll out a Death to America! crowd, just one more time, holding out the promise of the possibility of talk of reform.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 10:48 PM | Report abuse

Love good schools. Love 'em. I went to several...Catholic elem, Pub HS, Private undergrad, State grad.

{{{The least rigorous/serious of them all was the SUNY.}}}

Very dubious about the efficacy of government spending.

$23Thou/student in Jersey gets us Snooki.

$Trillions govt funding on AGW research.

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 10:56 PM | Report abuse

shrink,

There's (unconfirmed) reports Gaddafi is skedaddling to Venezuela! (ABC Radio)

tao/out

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 11:02 PM | Report abuse

"The horizontal axis is percentile of income not (capless) wealth. Given the rhetoric one would think the US curve wouldn't be as flat."

Well, that's the problem. By using a measure such as percentile instead of percent, you are suing a measure that caps at 100 percentile no matter how wealthy the people in that group are. You could multiply their salaries by ten and still have the exact same graph. And the top 5% of the US is a pretty large group. In 2009, 7.5 million Americans (2% of the population) had a million in total wealth. (It's a fair assumption that an individual's annual income is well below his total wealth, right?)

One of the problems is that 5% chunks are too big, the second is that percentiles will mask inequalities at the top of the scale. This is why the graph looks so smooth. The first percentile makes more money in a year than the third percentile makes in a lifetime.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 11:02 PM | Report abuse

Eppur si muove flat. ;>)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
outen tao

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 11:06 PM | Report abuse

"$23Thou/student in Jersey gets us Snooki."

Not to mention Donald Rumsfeld. I'm convinced.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 11:07 PM | Report abuse

"Sayf Gaddafi poured scorn on protesters, talking of "drunkards and thugs" driving tanks about the streets of Benghazi."

Sheesh Lybia is no fun at all, a protester can't have a Martini or too and still drive a tank around town without Big Government getting involved.


The early reviews are in, Jon Leyne, BBC Middle East correspondent said,

"That was one of the strangest political speeches I think I've ever sat through. He was completely and utterly detached from the reality of what is going on in his country. To put it bluntly, most Libyans will just treat it as gibberish - it was completely meaningless to them.

The idea that they're somehow going to sit down and have a national dialogue with a government that's brought in foreign mercenaries to shoot at them is laughable."

Didn't we just hear a speech like that in some other Arab country?

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 11:08 PM | Report abuse

US Policy:

"The United States is urging its citizens to avoid non-essential travel to Libya."

Perfect, this is not our place.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 20, 2011 11:30 PM | Report abuse

Why would anyone consider non-essential travel to Libya, ever?

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 20, 2011 11:48 PM | Report abuse

TO....... tao
Don't forget blimpo Chris Christie HATES Snooki cuz she's really from NY but gives a bad name to Jersey.
''''''''''''''''''''''''
Love good schools. Love 'em. I went to several...Catholic elem, Pub HS, Private undergrad, State grad.

{{{The least rigorous/serious of them all was the SUNY.}}}

Very dubious about the efficacy of government spending.

$23Thou/student in Jersey gets us Snooki.

$Trillions govt funding on AGW research.

Posted by: tao9 | February 20, 2011 10:56 PM

Posted by: smd1234 | February 21, 2011 12:11 AM | Report abuse

TO.......DDAWD

sad to say Rummie hails from ILL
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
"$23Thou/student in Jersey gets us Snooki."

Not to mention Donald Rumsfeld. I'm convinced.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 20, 2011 11:07 PM

Posted by: smd1234 | February 21, 2011 12:13 AM | Report abuse

But he went to Princeton.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 21, 2011 12:46 AM | Report abuse

@shrink-


"The public employee unions lost their bearings when they ceased to focus on the skills people considered precious (to say nothing of productivity) and focused instead on political deals."

Are u serious?

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 21, 2011 2:27 AM | Report abuse

@shrink-

February 20, 2011 10:12 AM:

"The public employee unions lost their bearings when they ceased to focus on the skills people considered precious (to say nothing of productivity) and focused instead on political deals."

Are you serious? You telling US that the Nurses, Fireman and Police don't have the, "the skills people considered precious" in Wisconsin?

Seriously?

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 21, 2011 2:32 AM | Report abuse

One wonders what kind of "market-driven" nurses will "care" for us at "Presbyterian Hospital".

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 21, 2011 2:40 AM | Report abuse

*ef the "market".

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 21, 2011 2:41 AM | Report abuse

@battle

"The Wisconsin, state senators are cowards of the lowest order.."

Yeah. I'm into, like the 'morning' of this thread and ....?

Y'all are gonna have 2 tri harder...

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 21, 2011 2:54 AM | Report abuse

@battlegound-

"I was in a union and saw it happen."

I have been here for 17 months here at the PL. Don't bullshit me...

Posted by: ChuckinDenton | February 21, 2011 3:08 AM | Report abuse

Just amazing how low the discussions go here when Jake, QB, and Brigade show up.

And Greg, you really ought to ban JakeD/clawrence for posting those home addresses, that's inexcusable post-Tucson.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 21, 2011 4:20 AM | Report abuse

"So it’s not about the budget; it’s about the power.

In principle, every American citizen has an equal say in our political process. In practice, of course, some of us are more equal than others. Billionaires can field armies of lobbyists; they can finance think tanks that put the desired spin on policy issues; they can funnel cash to politicians with sympathetic views (as the Koch brothers did in the case of Mr. Walker). On paper, we’re a one-person-one-vote nation; in reality, we’re more than a bit of an oligarchy, in which a handful of wealthy people dominate.

Given this reality, it’s important to have institutions that can act as counterweights to the power of big money. And unions are among the most important of these institutions.

You don’t have to love unions, you don’t have to believe that their policy positions are always right, to recognize that they’re among the few influential players in our political system representing the interests of middle- and working-class Americans, as opposed to the wealthy. Indeed, if America has become more oligarchic and less democratic over the last 30 years — which it has — that’s to an important extent due to the decline of private-sector unions.

And now Mr. Walker and his backers are trying to get rid of public-sector unions, too."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB

Posted by: bernielatham | February 21, 2011 7:22 AM | Report abuse

bernielatham, is it okay for billionaires to have "unfair" access when they are Democrats like Soros or Karsh?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 21, 2011 8:55 AM | Report abuse

No "Morning Plum" today?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 21, 2011 8:59 AM | Report abuse

All, Morning Roundup posted:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/monday_roundup_1.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | February 21, 2011 9:07 AM | Report abuse

Off for Presidents' Day? That's at least a legitimate holiday. Most teachers also get the summer off, yet they complain about not getting paid enough. How many of us are forced to homeschool / private school because of the poor conditions at public school? Maybe when teachers' unions stop protecting bad teachers, we can pay the good teachers more. How much better would our public schools be without the children of illegal immigrants?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 21, 2011 9:19 AM | Report abuse

Home Schooling?

You people are nuts. The vast majority of the working class can not afford to stay home. They have to work two or three jobs, just to survive.

Most home school parents are Bible Thumpers who want to brain wash their children in their home madrassas, and are worried sick that those outsiders might corrupt the minds of their little brainwashed zombies, with talk of science, and Sex ed, etc.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 21, 2011 10:19 AM | Report abuse

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