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Posted at 8:05 AM ET, 02/27/2011

Sunday Open Thread

By Greg Sargent

All yours.

By Greg Sargent  | February 27, 2011; 8:05 AM ET
Categories:  Miscellaneous  
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Comments

Any Terps fans here? Should be a good game today vs UNC.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 8:26 AM | Report abuse

Many state and local government employees have been promised pensions that the public couldn't have afforded even had there been no crash.

The more tax dollars governments have to devote to pensions, the more they'll have to take from other programs or from taxpayers. That means more layoffs or pay cuts for public employees, higher taxes, fewer services, or all of the above.

Compounding the problem, the state has increased its workforce almost 40% since the pension formula was changed and boosted the average state worker's wages by 50%. Local governments, meanwhile, raised their average salaries by 60%.

By their own reckoning, the 10 largest public pension systems in California had a $240-billion shortfall in 2010.

The above is from an article in the LA Times. There are similar stories about Illinois, New York and several other state debacles where big cities with hard-core liberals in charge have run aground dragging whole states down with them.

These are but little Obamanations, scattered across America.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 27, 2011 8:33 AM | Report abuse

Yeah as people approach the end of their working lives they should be worked to death, save the taxpayers some money they can lose in the stock market.

Go suck tailpipe, battleground.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 8:40 AM | Report abuse

caothien9 is about to lose it. At least Liam-still could see what an "oddball" he is. The meltdown will be spectacular.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 27, 2011 9:00 AM | Report abuse

battleground51, just wait until he starts wishing your death via red hot poker "all the way up." Maybe Greg will finally ban him too.

I live in California and voted against Jerry Brown (and Gray Davis before him) exactly because of their ties to unions. It's not "hostile management" with those two in charge, rather it is outright collusion to raid the treasury. It is ultimately the voters' fault for allowing it. Why we recently voted for yet another proposition borrowing BILLIONS for stem cell research, I will never know.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 27, 2011 9:11 AM | Report abuse

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/25/AR2011022506633.html?nav=hcmodule

Heh, Gingrich using historical revision to try and salvage his legacy at the cost of political damage to his party and economic damage to his country.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 9:13 AM | Report abuse

"Any Terps fans here? Should be a good game today vs UNC."

I'll be rooting for ya'll. I'm a Ga Tech grad, but I kind of make it my duty to cheer for whoever's playing UNC or Duke during basketball season.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | February 27, 2011 9:15 AM | Report abuse

In today's "pot meets kettle" moment:

"Sherzer said Bush doesn't want to be part of a forum that invited someone who has "willfully and repeatedly done great harm to the interests of the United States."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_on_re_us/us_bush_denver

Posted by: schrodingerscat | February 27, 2011 9:19 AM | Report abuse

An environmenta activist's ten-year journey from doing his part for the planet .. to preparing for siege.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/25/AR2011022503176_2.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

And of course the crowd lining the street for the parade of the naked empress is insisting that "everything's fine"; tell that to Allstate, no longer selling new homeowner policies in some Atlantic states. As the hurricane threat increases the threat of having to pay out. Brrr, mustn't have that.

"Winston Churchill's oft-quoted warning on the eve of World War II now applies directly: "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences."

Good luck, guys. Around here a decent sized yard can feed a family.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 9:22 AM | Report abuse

"I'll be rooting for ya'll. I'm a Ga Tech grad, but I kind of make it my duty to cheer for whoever's playing UNC or Duke during basketball season.

Posted by: schrodingerscat"

Well, you'll be rooting against me, then. I grew up a Terps fan, but changed allegiances after I started going to UNC. I love the Maryland games. My favorite college basketball game ever was in 2000 in Chapel Hill vs Maryland. The game was snow delayed and pretty much the only people there were students. No alumni. Which meant that all the good seats were vacant. So we were allowed to move into these seats and all the frenzied college students were right there by the court. It was also the only game where we stormed the court after the game.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 9:24 AM | Report abuse

Yeah, Gingrich. Now there's a class act for you. Vote for me, I dumped my wife while she was fighting cancer for a younger woman.

Reminds me of the original star of the Batman TV show getting hurt feelings when he wasn't tapped for the movie. Several decades and ilke a hundred pounds later.

Face reality Newt, baby, you're not going to be the one.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 9:28 AM | Report abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4no7x50-Fw

Someone put the game I was talking about on youtube. Can't believe this was over ten years ago.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 9:29 AM | Report abuse

Galaxies look like whirlpools. You;d expect that they would show the same velocity relationship as the planets of the solar system; the farther from the center, the slower their orbits, since the centrifugal force is less farther from the center. But this isn't the case. In most galaxies and clusters the stars move at pretty much the same velocity almost all the way from the center to the periphery. All but the innermost should fly away, their centrifugal force outmatching the gravity.

So the search is on for some kind of Dark Matter, some hitherto unknown material that doesn't show in telescopes, optical or radio or any other, to add the extra gravity to make those orbits stable.

Theories abound .. including alternatives to dark matter, such as Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND). One thing is certain: the answer to this will be some new physics. Candidates based on known particles have all been disproven. Why they can't be neutrinos I don't understand, but they aren't. The SUSY folks have their hearts set on the neutralino, the fermion equivalent of the photon, but SUSY is pretty radical.

MOND has problems with a few instances where it doesn't match the Doppler data but my hope is for MOND . you accept SUSY, you pretty much accept string theory and that would be one bitter pill.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 9:42 AM | Report abuse

Republicans are using their victory in November to help deal with America's economic situation..."About a dozen legislatures nationwide are considering bills that would allow firearms at public universities." Just kidding.

As the stock market sputters along where it was this time ten years ago, a period of no gdp growth, Republicans blame pensions for the economic malaise. Taxes lower than for decades, industry running wild...

The reason capitalism doesn't work where it used to is that there is no free market and it isn't coming back. All markets all controlled by extra-governmental industries (like ExxonMobil, which says if the taxpayers of America do not subsidize its profits, they will move even more jobs offshore) or by governmental industries, where the difference between the industry and government officials is gone if not fading fast, like defense and health care.

So American voters, if they want to get back to a period of sustainable growth, which lets face it, whether you call it a Ponzi scheme or not, is the only way things like SS and pensions can survive, have to decide what the growth driver is going to be, since force feeding the rich did not work.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 9:46 AM | Report abuse

schrodingerscat, I've been against Duke ever since going up against the Karsh family.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 27, 2011 9:49 AM | Report abuse

shrink2, a $240-billion shortfall with the 10 largest public pension systems in California is a bit of a problem, don't you think?

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 27, 2011 9:55 AM | Report abuse

Free markets are like one of those metaphors they lay on impressionable kids at bible camp to make religion seem mechanically logical. The very ideas is a seventeenth century right wing lunacy most of the world has outgrown, resurrected ilke some extinct plague discovered in a frozen Arctic corpse.

Free markets connote a shockingly immature economy. Mature ones plan and decide what sort of society they want to emerge.

It's amazing how many apparently educated people believe that nonsense.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 9:58 AM | Report abuse

What's a measly quarter trillion? America fought two wars for the fun of it, spending more than a dozen times that much, all borrowed, and nobody so much as batted an eye.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 10:02 AM | Report abuse

Oh it is a problem all right, but it isn't the problem. No growth is the problem, if there is going to be such a thing as a comfortable retirement, there has to be growth and now we still have to face the second half of the housing bust, where most Americans keep whatever wealth they have. And no growth in the face of rising commodity prices means stagflation and that hurts people on fixed incomes the most. Sure some public employee retirement/pension plans were and still are ridiculous, but that isn't what is driving the American economy backwards.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 10:05 AM | Report abuse

Let's defer that second housing bust for a bit if you don't mind.

Some places for sale in my old 'hood for two years just sold.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 10:08 AM | Report abuse

I need to join a union if for no other reason than to learn the magical powers that force governments to sign whatever contract they ask for. If these deals are so ridiculous, then why did anyone agree to it?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 10:09 AM | Report abuse

@DDAWD: "I grew up a Terps fan, but changed allegiances after I started going to UNC."

I can see why you look forward to the games so much. :) Either way, good luck. I just always have a propensity to root for the underdogs - which in the ACC is typically whoever is playing Duke or UNC.

"Someone put the game I was talking about on youtube. Can't believe this was over ten years ago."

Looks like lots of fun. Just wait until you start seeing highlight reels of games you attended and they look like they were filmed during the Dark Ages. It's completely depressing.

When I was deciding on grad schools, it ended up coming down to either GaTech or Purdue....my husband's very scientific method of deciding? The opportunity to see ACC basketball, of course.

Posted by: schrodingerscat | February 27, 2011 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Republicans are correct in challenging public sector unions for many reasons.

1. Unions are almost 100%, partisan, Democrat.

2. Unions support the Democrat party with hundreds of millions of $$$$$ in political donations.

3. Unions act as "community organizers" for the Democrat party in getting out the vote.

4. Unions cause taxes to go UP because the cost of supporting ever increasing numbers of bureaucrats' salaries, benefits, and pensions keeps going up.

Republicans would be crazy RINOs, indeed, if they did not oppose the public sector unions. The unions are their natural enemy.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 27, 2011 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Shorter battleground: destroy unions because they don't like repubs. Wah, wah wah!!!!

"Unions cause taxes to go UP because the cost of supporting ever increasing numbers of bureaucrats' salaries, benefits, and pensions keeps going up."

I guess this isn't going on in Republican controlled states where unions have little to no power? Funny since I live in GA, where there's no collective bargaining, yet we're still suffering from severe budget shortfalls. Hmmm......

Posted by: schrodingerscat | February 27, 2011 10:23 AM | Report abuse

caothien9;

Here's a better idea:

Since about 99% of the public sector unionistas are Obamacrats and are his devoted, love slaves, when they are too old to push their pencils, they surely would be happy to be sent to the ObamaCare, death panels for a free ride into oblivion.

The remainder get their pensions, as usual.

Savings may be in the trillions.

Solvency, all around.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 27, 2011 10:30 AM | Report abuse

Looking forward to the next iteration of battleground, the one that runs on batteries. This one has to be wound up with a little metal key.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 10:32 AM | Report abuse

One really cool wrinkle about the MOND hypothesis .. it adds an adjustment to the familiar F = ma equation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics

with a constant acceleration parameter .. and, with no "informing" the equation, that value co-in-cid-den-tally turns out to be the acceleration that would be required to accelerate something to the speed of light .. starting at the time the cosmos was created (for those of who don't think the universe was sneezed into existence 6000 years ago).

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 10:40 AM | Report abuse

"Looking forward to the next iteration of battleground, the one that runs on batteries. This one has to be wound up with a little metal key.

Posted by: caothien9"

Why even talk to him? Let him serve as the example of what it means to be Republican. Hell, he cited one of the PROBLEMS with unions is that they help drive voter turnout.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 10:46 AM | Report abuse

I really don't get what drives these guys, DDAWD. Aside from hate, I mean, and you;'d think that would get old after a while. I can't nurture a hate-on for long before I just start to feel sick. With these guys it seems to be the very essence of being alive. Whether is takes the form of rococo mockery or this spitting virulence,, well, you've probably read "Pillar of Fire" by Ray Bradbury, if not track it down, the opening paragraph says it all.

Just about every one of these Conservative Things people reminds me of Cagney at the end of "White Heat."

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 10:55 AM | Report abuse

Wasn't it the GOP talking point that Walker could wait out the protesters?

A massive rally is under way today(Saturday) at the capitol building in Madison. All accounts say it's bigger than last weekend's rally. And this time it's in heavy snow as opposed to a relatively temperate and sunny day.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Posted by: pragmaticagain | February 27, 2011 10:58 AM | Report abuse

"Britain announced it had temporarily closed its embassy in Tripoli"

Oh that is harsh. I wonder how the Lockerbie bomber is taking all this, the one who got traded for a BP oil deal. He might have done better if he stayed in a Scottish jail for awhile longer before getting dealt, but then of course, his prostate cancer would have to become terminal again, something in the air I guess.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 11:01 AM | Report abuse

"When I was deciding on grad schools, it ended up coming down to either GaTech or Purdue....my husband's very scientific method of deciding? The opportunity to see ACC basketball, of course.

Posted by: schrodingerscat"

Very good reason.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 11:04 AM | Report abuse

"On the Stump, Gingrich Puts Focus on Faith"

what a dirt bag

Who will his running mate be Jimmy Swaggart, or Jim Bakker?

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 11:05 AM | Report abuse

"I really don't get what drives these guys, DDAWD."

Well, I think for all the Conservatives here, they decided at some point that they are Conservative. That is their identity. Yeah, they live in the United States, have the physiology of a human being, but being American or a human is not who they truly are. They are Conservative. This means saying Conservative things, no matter what that entails. Whether it's talking about how immensely qualified Sarah Palin is or that the Bush tax cuts account for "0.00%" of the deficit.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Yeah like some sort of membership, in the kind of club that has secret handshakes. Only instead of secret handshakes they have consensual falsehoods.

I really wouldn't care that much if they weren't killing off the natural kingdom. They're on the short fuse of a demographic time bomb anyway. It's not like there's a whole new generation of vibrant conservatives or anything, this is a white-haired movement.

But the whole hate / derision / mockery thing (brigade / quarterback / Kevin, zum Beispiel) is so tiresome.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 11:25 AM | Report abuse

"But the whole hate / derision / mockery thing (brigade / quarterback / Kevin, zum Beispiel) is so tiresome."

Hi Cao! Hope you're having a great day! It's just an oversight that I'm not on that list, right? Otherwise, my feelings would be hurt!

Really great comments everyone! A pleasure to read!

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 27, 2011 11:40 AM | Report abuse

But the whole hate / derision / mockery thing is so tiresome.

Well this guy thinks it might be making a comeback.

"This week, Davidson apologized for any offence his humour had caused in the past and admitted he missed the money and the fame of a career in television."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12569498

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 11:41 AM | Report abuse

shrink, do you know anything about the Congressman who emailed his staffers that tiger suit picture? (Honestly, I don't see the big deal with the picture in itself.) Apparently he's had a string of issues that caused many of his staffers to resign.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 11:45 AM | Report abuse

An excellent bit of historical analysis from a SAIS professor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/opinion/27ajami.html?pagewanted=2&hp

hilarious line...“The gift of liberty is like that of a horse, handsome, strong and high-spirited. In some it arouses a wish to ride; in many others, on the contrary, it increases the urge to walk.”

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 11:52 AM | Report abuse

"Apparently he's had a string of issues that caused many of his staffers to resign."

Yeah I posted all that stuff about Wu here as it was breaking the week before last. At the time I guessed pill popping and I still think that. This guy has never been the sharpest tool in the shed, I don't think he had any judgement to waste. A nice fellow though, less corrupt than most. He blames stress, his divorce etc., but the causal connection generally is mutual, if not exactly the reverse.

If he comes clean, stops styling this as, "no biggie I am fine now" (he recently appointed himself his own campaign treasurer, so this isn't exactly over), he may get a Mulligan, most people do. It isn't as if he did something horrible, yet, he is just a mess.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 12:45 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of acknowledging you have a problem America, I'm looking at you....

AP - On Face the Nation, Chris Christie, who says he's struggled with a weight problem most of his life, thinks first lady Michelle Obama is doing well to speak in favor of healthy eating and exercise.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 12:56 PM | Report abuse

I need to join a union if for no other reason than to learn the magical powers that force governments to sign whatever contract they ask for. If these deals are so ridiculous, then why did anyone agree to it?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 10:09 AM
==========================================

shrink2, you really should educate DDAWD about how things work in the real world. He doesn't understand the relationship between politicians and public sector unions. As the post below indicates, he lives in an echo chamber and doesn't interact with conservatives, which explains why he manages to remain so ignorant. As they say, he doesn't know what he doesn't know. And doesn't even care.
-------

"Looking forward to the next iteration of battleground, the one that runs on batteries. This one has to be wound up with a little metal key.

Posted by: caothien9"

Why even talk to him? Let him serve as the example of what it means to be Republican.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 10:46 AM
==========================================

Or block him, like DDAWD, and become even more ignorant than you already are.

Posted by: Brigade | February 27, 2011 1:14 PM | Report abuse

"He blames stress, his divorce etc., but the causal connection generally is mutual, if not exactly the reverse."

Yeah, that's the first thing that popped into my head when I saw that. Chris C had his worst week on Wu and he seemed to be fixated on the tiger costume. It's a little weird, but if a boss has good rapport with his employees, it doesn't seem out of bounds at all.

As for the weight loss thing, I'm still astonished that it's even an issue. Although I should learn to stop being astonished by Republican idiocy.

It could have been worse though. Conservatives could have gone the global warming route with this. "There's absolutely no evidence that being overweight leads to heart disease Life is cyclical. First you are not alive, then you are alive, then you are not alive."

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Here are some of today's typical posts by caothien9.

----------
This one demonstrates his ability to engage on the issues:
----------

Go suck tailpipe, battleground.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 8:40 AM
----------

This one, unrelated to any topic under discussion, was thrown in to impress us with his intelligence. He knows how to read and google and doesn't want those skills to atrophy---really, what sort of discussion can you have with the average Vietnamese local that doesn't focus on rice or those odd looking sores on your genitalia:
----------

Galaxies look like whirlpools. You;d expect that they would show the same velocity relationship as the planets of the solar system . . .(omitted much of the jargon---I can read and google, too) . . . MOND has problems with a few instances where it doesn't match the Doppler data but my hope is for MOND . you accept SUSY, you pretty much accept string theory and that would be one bitter pill.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011
----------

Later today, we'll get a lecture on population genetics and how our shrinking world has brought a halt to geographical isolation of species and, thus, evolution. In the meantime:
----------

Good luck, guys. Around here a decent sized yard can feed a family.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011
----------

Centipedes; grub worms; swamp grass; wild rice; the occasional rat or feral cat. One can only imagine.

Posted by: Brigade | February 27, 2011 1:43 PM | Report abuse

"Life is cyclical. First you are not alive, then you are alive, then you are not alive." Heh, reading a little Ecclesiastes this Sunday morning?

Deval Patrick and John Hickenlooper wiped the floor with Jan Brewer and Nikki Haley this morning on This Week; I'd estimate the combined IQ point mismatch at 50.

No, Wu has done nothing terrible, he is just getting too odd and in the Portland area, we can handle a weirdness. Most important, he is ineffective. I think he just needs to get the puck out of psychiatrists' offices and...go to rehab, but what do I know.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Brigade, you should stick to being funny (though I do love wild rice, no doubt something to do with growing up in Michelle Bachmann's district, Stearns Co MN; when the Indians from up North came through and sold us rice and fish, back in the late fifties that was, it was a treat), there is no up side to conducting running feuds on post-it boards.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 1:54 PM | Report abuse

"Deval Patrick and John Hickenlooper wiped the floor with Jan Brewer and Nikki Haley this morning on This Week; I'd estimate the combined IQ point mismatch at 50. "

heh, Brewer is an idiot, no question about that. My impression of Haley is that she always seems to tie everything into some Conservative theme. I remember watching one of her debates and there was some question about school buses and she turned it into something about free markets and such. She didn't pull a Palin, but was actually coherent and stayed relevant to the topic. It was just strange how she always felt the need to be "on"

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 2:08 PM | Report abuse

Collegiality, respect, courtesy and kindness at the outset of the maelstrom:

{snip}
At 8 a.m. Thursday, the Senate's Democrats agreed to flee to Illinois, leaving the Senate one member shy of the 20 senators required to vote on budget-related bills.

It was the third pivotal decision - MTI's call for protest and the Democrats' continuation of testimony were the others-that blocked rapid passage of the budget-repair bill and accelerated an already historic set of events.

But there was a problem: Sen. Tim Cullen of Janesville didn't participate in the vote to leave Wisconsin. He was helping the family of former Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice Bill Bablitch notify the media of Bablitch's death.

When he heard the plans, Cullen called Senate President Mike Ellis, R-Neenah, to ask if he could enter the Capitol without being detained.

"He said fine, come in. There's no problem," Cullen told the State Journal.

Ellis, who runs the Senate, cautioned Cullen to leave by 11 a.m., when the Senate was scheduled to consider the bill and he would be forced to institute a "call of the house" to try to compel the 14 senators back to the chamber.

Cullen said he later got a call from Ellis as he drove south toward Illinois: "Did you get out of here?"

When assured that Cullen was out of Madison, he said Ellis responded, "Good. I just wanted to double check."
{snip}

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_3c7f9cd2-4274-11e0-8f25-001cc4c002e0.html


Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 2:21 PM | Report abuse

Anonymous is going after Koch. This should be good.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | February 27, 2011 3:34 PM | Report abuse

@shrink, DDAWD and the others who were discussing the role of Gov't.

I hear you loud and clear shrink but like Troll I'm curious as to your vision of "American" Socialism. Last year during the debate on letting the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest expire I was repeatedly called a "socialist" for daring to suggest than another 3-4% in tax burden for the wealthy was not the end of the world as we know it. In fact looking back I know realize how foolish I was to even engage with the righties because in "real" life the majority of the wealthy amongst us do not pay anywhere near the marginal rate anyway. Gov Rick Scott is a prime example...net worth close to a half billion...annual "reported" income 10 million the past three years...taxes paid..15% of that ten million.

And so shrink here is my stab at "American Socialism".

CUT defense spending...this requires a separate post but there is billions and billions of $$$ to be saved or I believe transferred to more productive endeavors...e.g. fixing bridges before they fall down like the one in TPaw and Michele Bachmann's state. The American Society of Civil Engineers recently gave our infrastructure a D grade and they were being generous. Cutting defense means ending a lot of military jobs..we need to be ready with positions in a new "war" on infrastructure (it seems the word "war" is the only thing that gets the attention of our hostile conservative friends). The qualified servicemen would get assistance to attend grad schools with a graduated scale that increases if they enter the sciences or any other area we decide is worth subsidizing.

End the cap on the FICA contribution. It's absurd to have a tax that is literally regressive and increases as a % of earnings on those who earn less. This should take care of SS.

Provide Medicare for all...it and SS could be means tested...and it could be aided by leaving a certain amount unpaid and covered by "supplemental" private insurance for those who can afford it...this is the current situation for Medicare amongst seniors. I do not have a friend on Medicare who doesn't also purchase private supplemental insurance.

Match up investment taxes with taxes on labor or "earned" income. Mark is better than me with the actual numbers but I'm guessing 25% for Cap gains and earned income of workers currently in that bracket would suffice. I'm not talking about anything draconian. The system would have to be purged of the most egregious deductions. Corporations shouldered 25% of our national taxes in the 50's...since Reagan and Bush they are now down to below 8%...jump that figure back to a more historic norm and have the Corps pay their fair share.

We should develop a truly punitive system for those Corps that offshore themselves to avoid taxes and gain cheap labor. If a Corp wants access to the AMERICAN consumer they need to pay to play.

Just a few ideas of how "American Socialism" might look.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

DEFENSE SPENDING!!!!

http://armscontrolcenter.org/policy/securityspending/articles/US_vs_Global/

The United States remains the global leader in defense spending, surpassing the next closest country by more than eight times.

In a recent speech to the Navy League’s annual Sea-Air-Space Exposition, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates pointed to just a few of the many extreme cases in which U.S. defense outweighs that of other countries:

The U.S. operates 11 large carriers, all nuclear powered. In terms of size and striking power, no other country has even one comparable ship.

The U.S. Navy has 10 large-deck amphibious ships that can operate as sea bases for helicopters and vertical-takeoff jets. No other navy has more than three, and all of those navies belong to pure allies or friends. Our Navy can carry twice as many aircraft at sea as all the rest of the world combined.

The U.S. has 57 nuclear-powered attack and cruise missile submarines – again, more than the rest of the world combined.

Seventy-nine Aegis-equipped combatants carry roughly 8,000 vertical-launch missile cells. In terms of total missile firepower, the U.S. arguably outmatches the next 20 largest navies.

All told, the displacement of the U.S. battle fleet – a proxy for overall fleet capabilities – exceeds, by one recent estimate, at least the next 13 navies combined, of which 11 are our allies or partners.

Those numbers focus only on the Navy, but extreme examples like these span every branch of the Department of Defense.

In 2008, the most recent year for which complete global data is available, the U.S. approved $696.3 billion in defense budget authority (fiscal 2010 dollars). This figure includes funding for the Pentagon base budget, Department of Energy-administered nuclear weapons activities, and supplemental appropriations for Iraq and Afghanistan.

This number is eight times more than Russia, 15 times more than Japan, 47 times more than Israel, and nearly 73 times more than Iran.

In inflation-adjusted dollars, the total U.S. defense budget has grown from $432 billion in fiscal 2001 to $720 billion in fiscal 2011, a real increase of approximately 67 percent. The Congressional Budget Office has regularly warned that discretionary spending will come under increased pressure in the coming years. The legacy of the recent economic crisis will be a high and rising debt that must be addressed across the board.

WTF is all this stuff for anyway? How long are we going to operate on the same strategy developed after WWII...I get the difference between PROGRESSive and CONSERVative...but really this is just lunacy. Is this country going to remained mired in the past forever?

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 4:27 PM | Report abuse

And possibly cutting the military will at least dampen our enthusiasm for recreational wars. When we buy toys we will invariably want to play with them.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 4:43 PM | Report abuse

"When we buy toys we will invariably want to play with them."

Bingo DDAWD! And when we play with them we need to replace them...much to the glee and profit of Cheney and his crony capitalist friends over at Haliburton.

If only we had paid better attention when Ike warned of the danger of the M.I.C. Ike was more prescient than Nostradamus.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 4:52 PM | Report abuse

We like to call ourselves the richest nation in the world. How do we measure wealth? On one hand, we spend more than every other nation on defense and have weapons others would swoon over. On the other hand, we have people on this blog seriously demanding that teachers be paid less. We have people who claim we can't invest in our bridges even if they fall down from age. We can't invest in educating our people because we're out of money. We can't afford for everyone to have healthcare, or social security or medicare because we don't have the money.

When it comes to defense and wars, money is no object--nothing is too expensive. We have superiority in every imaginable way and yet we keep increasing our defense spending to even higher levels. We even spend money on defense programs that the Pentagon doesn't want.

When it comes to our people, suffering is no objection--our money is too precious to spend on our own people. We don't mind if our people die from lack of medical care, we don't mind if poor people starve and are homeless, we don't mind that we renege on our Social Security/Medicare promises.

The is what Dwight Eisenhower warned about, and it has surely come to pass. We are a poor people defended by the most expensive whiz-bang weapons.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 4:58 PM | Report abuse

We defend the rights of uber wealthy people to make unlimited amounts of money. We defend their rights with a zeal that belongs in a tent revival meeting.

But then, we turn on teachers, firefighters, policeman, autoworkers, the unemployed and even elderly people. We act as if it is these people who are the problem for all our collective woes.

There is a saying on the Navaho nation, a society organized around a dozen extended families. This saying is considered to be the biggest insult that one can deliver. It is: "You act like a man without a family".

That's how we act. We act like a people without a family--we turn on each other in an instant, viciously and without a modicum of compassion or mercy for each other, demonizing our neighbors as the cause of all problems, and ironically defending the uber rich. Most of us have never even known an uber rich person, and certainly no uber rich person would ever "know" us.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 5:19 PM | Report abuse

@12Bar

And do you have any idea of how we might change this totally whacked out prioritization.

The news appears bleak on this front. I just read today that the DNC is finally calling out Obama for his reticence on ending the war in Afghanistan.

Everytime I hear 4 star Goober Petraues talking about "winning the hearts and minds" I want to puke. The average American hates Muslims. Do we suppose Muslims are unaware of our constant Muslim bashing...and yet we are going to win their hearts and minds? Posh!!!

This would be akin to the Devil Fred Phelps and his losers who froth at the mouth about the gays and disrupt military funerals going into San Francisco with the avowed purpose of winning the hearts and minds of gays.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 5:20 PM | Report abuse

And do you have any idea of how we might change this totally whacked out prioritization.
--------------------------------------------------------------
For us, we're screwed. I hear people say things like "people get on the blog (or testify in front of Congress) with these sob stories, and all it does it make me mad....[insert threat]". When people hear sob stories and are not moved, those people are devoid of compassion, and if the sob stories actually motivates them to hurt people, that's the very definition of sociopathic behavior.

We need to teach our kids and our grandchildren compassion. We need to model it, preach it, teach it, insist on it and praise the hell out the kids when they are kind to animals and other kids and strangers. Once someone has compassion in his heart, it's there for life.

I had a friend who was an arch conservative by the way. He was raised in a Christian orphanage. Every week the kids and the minister traveled up to San Francisco to attend church services. One Sunday they picked up a hitchhiking serviceman. My friend, who was a little boy, felt so bad for this serviceman that he slipped his entire net worth of a dime into the serviceman's pocket without saying a word. My friend was one of the most compassionate people I ever met. You learn that young, or you don't learn it at all.

We can only appeal to those who have ears to hear and are moved by the plight of people. Obviously, right now, there are not enough of those people as we are surely in a punitive mood.

The reason I'm seizing on compassion as the difference is because I think that is the core reason you help people and not build another nuclear sub instead.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 5:33 PM | Report abuse

There is a line in Monty Python's; The Meaning Of LIfe:

Today we honor those who sacrificed their lives to keep China British.

John McCain and Joe Lieberman talking about how the USA should have taken the lead on the Libyan internal upheaval, instead of the Europeans, reminded me of that line.

Not very long ago, we had no relations with the Libyan government, and as of just a few days ago, we still had a very small contingent of people to evacuate, compared to many other countries. In addition to that, European countries have relied on Libya for a large share of their energy needs, while the USA has not.

But of course, McCain and Leiberman are still stuck on Iraqi Invasion Stupidity, and want the USA to get bogged down in any country that exports oil, even if we are not the one buying it.

Strange how none of those American Big Footers, have appeared not to notice that things are just as bad in Ivory Coast, and it started before the Libyan unrest.

Could it be because that country is in Black Africa, and does not export a lot of oil? Nah, that can't be it. I expect that any day now, John McCain will beat his ould chest and declare; My fellow Americans, today we are all Ivorians.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 27, 2011 5:39 PM | Report abuse

Hi, well, the thing is, it isn't just about cutting spending, though yes, that money that has to be invested in the new growth model has to come from somewhere and working peoples' pensions must be honored.

What we need is an attitude toward what grows, who we become. More specifically, we need an attitude that recognizes the productivity of the relationship between workers and management as the wealth driver. The better the workers and managers work together, the more productive the enterprise becomes.

Earlier I spoke of income differentials being a necessary evil, much to the derision of the wing nuts. But it is and it has to be possible for people who are smarter and or work harder than others to be rewarded for that, the forced leveling is the core error of old socialism. Still the incentive to overcome obstacles and be smart and work hard can not turn to an all or nothing game of a few winners and mostly losers, which is what our very sick economy has become.

Anyway, this a the recipe for American socialism, it is just a few comments. When we get to specifics, much of the current Democratic program has to come under fire too, it is wasteful and worse, counter-productive. The problem with a political forum, the noise on behalf of the status quo is almost relentless. As the (Bonnie Raitt? Mose Alison?) line goes, everybody wants peace on earth just as long as we win this war.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 5:40 PM | Report abuse

12Bar,

After 50 years of very effective attacks from the left on traditional virtues, the family, classically liberal curriculums, and organized religion you're asking the "Navaho" question?

{{{datapoint: St. Charles Sheen is the most popular television actor in the nation}}}

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 5:41 PM | Report abuse

12bb, to be fair, the country is generally against the policies being pushed by Republicans. Most Americans were in favor of letting tax cuts on the richest expire. Americans are very solidly behind the unions. Americans are very supportive of the provisions in the PPACA.

It's just that Republicans have the no-compromise stance and Democrats have the "we can compromise" stance really gives the illusion that the country is more right wing than it actually is since our policies tend to get shifted in that direction.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 5:45 PM | Report abuse

♫♫♫ "Everybody's cryin' mercy but they don't know the meaning of the word..." ♫♫♫

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 5:47 PM | Report abuse

Newsflash -- union members pay for their own pensions--they contribute to a fund directly from their own paychecks. The only way the 'public' is involved is some of those investments are in state bonds. But like Social Security, they are bonds like any other bonds.

Red herring, but wingers swallow them whole all the time.

Posted by: fiona5 | February 27, 2011 5:48 PM | Report abuse

12bb, to be fair, the country is generally against the policies being pushed by Republicans.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I think people are against the GOP policies when they are explained in a huge amount of detail. The problem is that people don't seem to be so anti-GOP at election time. If that were the case, we would still have a Dem. House of Rep.

Not that that would be an guarantee of a more humane approach to government as the Democrats seem to run scared much of the time. Ironically, running scared doesn't work as they lost the House anyway.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 5:53 PM | Report abuse

The Kochdaffi Republican Brotherhood.

Posted by: Liam-still | February 27, 2011 5:55 PM | Report abuse

We need to teach our kids and our grandchildren compassion. We need to model it, preach it, teach it, insist on it and praise the hell out the kids when they are kind to animals and other kids and strangers. Once someone has compassion in his heart, it's there for life.

We can only appeal to those who have ears to hear and are moved by the plight of people. Obviously, right now, there are not enough of those people as we are surely in a punitive mood.

The reason I'm seizing on compassion as the difference is because I think that is the core reason you help people and not build another nuclear sub instead.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 5:33 PM
==========================================

There was a time when petitioning the government to tax other people was not one of the definitions of compassion. This point is lost on the non-Christians who are always using the "what would Jesus do?" mantra against Christians---who are traditionally among the most charitable of people. People who send money to Jimmy Swaggart instead the of United Way may be naive but not necessarily lacking in compassion. Liberals who are continually clamoring for higher taxes instead of sending their money to their favorite organizations (the DNC and moveon.org don't count) are equally naive. Where's the Social Security surplus?

It's especially galling to hear members of the infamous 47% demanding that other taxpayers be more generous.

You had me right up until your last sentence. We can all be (and should be) charitable and compassionate, but we cannot all afford to build another nuclear sub. That's when I knew you were really talking about government "compassion".

Posted by: Brigade | February 27, 2011 5:55 PM | Report abuse

Honestly, I think 90% of last November's elections can be explained by the job situation. Republicans will attribute it to all sorts of things (such as Scott Walker's complete lie that he campaigned on ending collective bargaining), but it's mainly the fact that they prevented any meaningful stimulus that led to their electoral victories.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 5:58 PM | Report abuse

That's when I knew you were really talking about government "compassion".
-----------------------------------------
I don't understand the division. A compassionate people practice compassion, both privately and governmentally. That's what the people would want.

I understand your point that government should not be compassionate. It's just that I disagree.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 5:58 PM | Report abuse

After 50 years of very effective attacks from the left on traditional virtues, the family, classically liberal curriculums, and organized religion you're asking the "Navaho" question?
-----------------------------------------------
@tao,

I don't know what you are asking me to do. I am a pretty conservative person, cradle Catholic, prolife and go to Church (well, not as much as I should). I think the Navaho question is very profound. Don't you?

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 6:04 PM | Report abuse

"After 50 years of very effective attacks from the left on traditional virtues, the family, classically liberal curriculums, and organized religion you're asking the "Navaho" question?"

haha, what kind of attacks are we talking about? Allowing blacks and whites to hold hands?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 6:08 PM | Report abuse

Honestly, I think 90% of last November's elections can be explained by the job situation. Republicans will attribute it to all sorts of things (such as Scott Walker's complete lie that he campaigned on ending collective bargaining), but it's mainly the fact that they prevented any meaningful stimulus that led to their electoral victories.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 5:58 PM
======================================

Just like 90% of Obama's 2008 victory can be explained by the 2008 economic meltdown. Oh, and Obama got the "meaningful stimulus" he said he needed to lead to our "summer of recovery". It didn't work. You're into lies and excuses; however, the voters expected results, thus the November 2010 drubbing of the Democrats. It's really clear to those of us outside the echo chamber.

Posted by: Brigade | February 27, 2011 6:09 PM | Report abuse

That's when I knew you were really talking about government "compassion".
-----------------------------------------
I don't understand the division. A compassionate people practice compassion, both privately and governmentally. That's what the people would want.

I understand your point that government should not be compassionate. It's just that I disagree.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 5:58 PM
=========================================

The difference is that shrink2 helping me by giving me Liam's money, forcibly taken from him, does not really demonstrate shrink2's compassion---unless you allow that shrink2 could have just kept Liam's money for himself.

Posted by: Brigade | February 27, 2011 6:14 PM | Report abuse

@12Bar

I agree with your observations about compassion. There are folks abroad in our land like Dr. Wayne Dyer and others who are trying to do exactly what you suggest..get us to realize that we are ALL in this together and compassion is essential.

IMHO fear is the mortal enemy of compassion.
Fox news and other outlets prey upon our fears and bring out the worst in us.

@shrink I also agree with your take completely. I have always stated my position as not being a "pure" socialist nor a "pure" capitalist. Each has it's benefits and each has it's negatives.

The pendulum has just swung too far at the moment. The irony to me is that the righties do not understand that the farther they manage to swing this pendulum the more momentum or energy they are building for a tremendous swing the other direction. I'm not a fan of communism. If we keep crushing the middle class it could get really really ugly in our country when the pendulum swings back the other way. Cao has suggested this frequently and I believe he has a point. I remain hopeful that our nation will get over it's hateful selfish ways sooner rather than later...if it's later there's liable to be hell to pay.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 6:15 PM | Report abuse

haha, what kind of attacks are we talking about? Allowing blacks and whites to hold hands?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 6:08 PM
=======================================

This is where everything always boils down in DDAWD's pathetic little world. Blacks are no better off than they were in 1850, and whatever bad happens in America is just chickens coming home to roost.

Posted by: Brigade | February 27, 2011 6:18 PM | Report abuse

"haha, what kind of attacks are we talking about? Allowing blacks and whites to hold hands?"

Yes, that's exactly it.

I know you're late-twenties or something, and you're studying medicine...but your cultural/historical understanding of your own country is shockingly shallow and
typically dismissive.

You hit the lottery just by being born here and you haven't the gratitude or the maturity to realize that (yet--I'm eternally optimistic).

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 6:18 PM | Report abuse

The difference is that shrink2 helping me by giving me Liam's money, forcibly taken from him, does not really demonstrate shrink2's compassion---unless you allow that shrink2 could have just kept Liam's money for himself.
-------------------------------------------
This is a democracy which means the majority of the votes get to call the shots. No one ever said it had to be unanimous. We have had periods of governmental compassion in the past, like passage of Social Security and Medicare and civil rights in the 50's. Those laws, and a lot more, came from a compassionate national heart that heard suffering in fellow citizens.

The point is not "proving" compassion. The point is responding to suffering to the extent that we can. We are either moved to reduce suffering or we are deaf to those cries. Some hear, some do not hear.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 6:21 PM | Report abuse

"I know you're late-twenties or something, and you're studying medicine...but your cultural/historical understanding of your own country is shockingly shallow and
typically dismissive."

I'm being that way because I'm sure you can't give me a response that doesn't run along a racist, sexist, or homophobic line. (or is just completely made up)

If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear what forms these attacks take.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 6:27 PM | Report abuse

IMHO fear is the mortal enemy of compassion.
--------------------------------------
Exactly. Fear comes from a poverty mentality. Compassion comes from an abundance mentality. The first is a viewpoint that there is never enough to go around, someone has to suffer, the zero sum game. The second is that there is plenty to go around, that anyone can aspire to success, that we all gain together, rising tides raises all boats.

Before a bunch of people jump on this poverty/abundance idea, I'm talking about attitudes. Americans used to be the "can do" people. If it could be done, it would be done here. I don't hear that much anymore. We've lost our optimism that we can make things happen. When we were the "can do" people, we were coming from an abundance mentality.

Now, we come from a poverty mentality.

Posted by: 12BarBluesAgain | February 27, 2011 6:34 PM | Report abuse

"I'm being that way because I'm sure you can't give me a response that doesn't run along a racist, sexist, or homophobic line. (or is just completely made up)"

Pulling out the (rote, as per usual) big guns at the slightest disagreement with your received fantasies.

Show me one post I've ever written here that displays those epithets.

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 6:39 PM | Report abuse

shrink--You grew up in dark Stearns County? I spent a good chunk of my childhood and adolescence there too. This is a little scary. Two of us on one blog?

Posted by: AllButCertain | February 27, 2011 6:40 PM | Report abuse

"Pulling out the (rote, as per usual) big guns at the slightest disagreement with your received fantasies.

Show me one post I've ever written here that displays those epithets."

Not saying you ever have. I'm just saying that you can't demonstrate an attack on family values without it.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 6:44 PM | Report abuse

DD,

Go re-read at my post.

I didn't say "family values" (that's what I'm talking about when I called your response typically rote).

I wrote "traditional virtues."

Big difference.

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 7:02 PM | Report abuse

""After 50 years of very effective attacks from the left on traditional virtues, the family, classically liberal curriculums, and organized religion"

Fine, liberals believe in evolution, so there's your attack on religion, I guess.

But you said family and traditional values. Sorry, I put them both as one.

But anyways, now that we've defined what you said, explain away as to what kinds of attacks these are.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 7:05 PM | Report abuse

eep, traditional virtues, not values.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 7:06 PM | Report abuse

mikefromArlington, just wait until Anonymous goes after Obama.

Posted by: clawrence12 | February 27, 2011 7:15 PM | Report abuse

@ABC

Don't know if you missed my post yesterday but thanks again for the Jane Smiley recommendation. She is a very talented writer. Now I'll have to dig up her Pulitzer Prize winner and read that.
My wife the Dentist however was not as impressed with Smiley's mastery of dentistry...still she likes Smiley as a writer.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 7:17 PM | Report abuse

"And possibly cutting the military will at least dampen our enthusiasm for recreational wars. When we buy toys we will invariably want to play with them. Posted by: DDAWD"

I'm quite sure that the Army wanted no part of Bush's Iraq war. Shinseki certainly lost his job saying his Army wasn't ready and wouldn't be for many more months than Bush could wait. Iraq is entirely a civilian picked war, but the Army does follow orders when it can't get them changed. We do claim to want it that way.

Posted by: ceflynline | February 27, 2011 7:41 PM | Report abuse

DD,

The MOST traditional, of course, would be the famous seven: faith, hope, charity, prudence, justice, temperence, courage.

The left has jacked "justice" up to the front of the line and dropped the majority of the remaining.

I suppose others would be:

The nobility of honest work (any work, no matter how unglamourous)

The moral duty to educate yourself (emphasis on "yourself"!!)

The appreciation of the wisdom of our fathers (and mothers) and the preciousness of those yet born.

A little more self-honesty, less self-reverence.

Kill Lady Gaga
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are the above, in depth, in political language in the Declaration, Washington's Farewell, Franklin's essays, Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural.

Those are dead to most folks around your age, no one ever bothered to show them that (thanks teachers!!!); for example, MLK's Dream speech is a direct descendant of those documents.

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 7:42 PM | Report abuse

Hi ruk--I did miss your post. Interesting that Smiley didn't nail the dentistry part. One of the challenges in writing fiction is having to deal with so many details that are supposed to ring true. You have to be accurate while you're making things up. Very different from journalism. (Just kidding, Greg. At least when it comes to you.)

Posted by: AllButCertain | February 27, 2011 7:52 PM | Report abuse

HA HA HA HA HAAAA HAAA HAAA

See how far down this blog falls when I'm not around ???

The liberals are content, in the self-reenforcing illusion of their pathetic echochamber of hate.

When will the liberals actually look at the costs of the programs they want to create - or even the results ????? When will the liberals even compare what the liberals said would be the costs of their programs in the 60s, 70s and 90s - and then compare the actual costs of these programs today?????

It is a joke, the liberals are more concerned with creating more bloated government and raising taxes - rather than actually getting the bloated government that they already have to perform services properly.

Posted by: RainForestRisesAndRules | February 27, 2011 8:02 PM | Report abuse

Wow, tao. I think if Andy Rooney were to read that, he would think, "this sounds like something I'd say, just more trite and inane"

Anyways, I didn't ask you to delineate what these virtues are. I asked you to show how the left is attacking them.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 8:05 PM | Report abuse

Obama is destroying the economy - seeking to desperately create more government waste before he is finally voted out in disgrace.

Obama will not stop.

All liberals must evaluate Obama and be honest about his job performance - horrible. The nation deserves honestly from the liberals on this point, and how disasterous Obama has been.

The only bright spot has been that Obama has destroyed the democratic party.

Obama is a one-man drag on the Economy, an unprecedented effect on hundreds of millions of people - an achievement unknown in the course of HUMAN HISTORY. The liberals should be proud that they forced this inexperienced and unqualified person onto innocent Americans.

Posted by: RainForestRisesAndRules | February 27, 2011 8:06 PM | Report abuse

Unbelievable that the trolls on this blog have little idea what to talk about when I am not around.

STEP IT UP PEOPLE.

Posted by: RainForestRisesAndRules | February 27, 2011 8:08 PM | Report abuse

Fine, liberals believe in evolution, so there's your attack on religion, I guess.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 7:05 PM
=========================================

Total bullsh*t. Very few people don't believe in evolution. It's just when the word is used as a dog whistle for "there is no God" or "life on earth is an accident" that non-liberals see very little reason to engage. Conservatives deal in facts; liberals live in the echo chamber.

-------

ev·o·lu·tion   /ˌɛvəˈluʃən or, especially Brit., ˌivə-/

–noun

1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.

2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.

3. Biology . change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.

4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.

5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.

Posted by: Brigade | February 27, 2011 8:15 PM | Report abuse

"ABC, shrink--You grew up in dark Stearns County? I spent a good chunk of my childhood and adolescence there too."

St. Joe. Grew up in not near the St. Ben's convent, watching the Jonnies was a long drive, though the St. John's monastery is surely a tob. Where were you?

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 8:19 PM | Report abuse

@Tao

"The nobility of honest work (any work, no matter how unglamourous)"

Sorry my mountain climbing friend but you can't blame that one on DDAWD's generation.
It lies squarely at our feet and all the other supporters of Ronnie and the R's. Since 1980 the middle class has been shrinking as the only thing that "trickled down" was the urine from the laughing rich in our society.

Our society made a clear shift after St. Ronnie in it's tax policies...and our view of organized labor. We began taxing "labor" more than "investment". Labor hasn't been respected in our nation for decades now...pity that, since the R's..while always being the party of business used to realize that the country at it's heart is the working man...not the robber barons like Rick the Scumbag Scott.

Scott pays a lower % of his millions each year than my wife and I do earning 1/100th of his annual income...that is his "reported" annual income. It's not DDAWD or his generation that supported this gross inequity..it's YOU Tao and our generation of Fox Geezers who see nothing wrong with that...my wife works in a very physically demanding and unglamorous job...she tends to folks oral health...and in exchange for that..earning again less than 1/100th of what Rick the crook takes in..she pays over 10% more on her income than Scott. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING TAO!

It's not DDAWD and HIS generation...it's OUR stupid generation that lost it's respect for labor, and work, and instead embraced Gordon Gecko...yeah..."Greed is good"

It wasn't always this way for R's...

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=25838

Some gems from the 1956 REPUBLICAN platform....

"On its Centennial, the Republican Party again calls to the minds of all Americans the great truth first spoken by Abraham Lincoln: "The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities."

Then, insofar as consistent with a balanced budget, we pledge to work toward these additional objectives:

Further reductions in taxes with PARTICULAR CONSIDERATION for low and middle income families.

Under the Republican Administration, as our country has prospered, so have its people. This is as it should be, for as President Eisenhower said: "LABOR IS THE UNITED STATES." The men and women, who with their minds, their hearts and hands, create the wealth that is shared in this country—they are America."

Revise and improve the Taft-Hartley Act so as to protect more effectively THE RIGHTS OF LABOR UNIONS, management, the individual worker, and the public. The PROTECTION OF THE RIGHT OF WORKERS TO ORGANIZE INTO UNIONS AND TO BARGAIN COLLECTIVELY IS THE FIRM AND PERMANENT POLICY OF THE EISENHOWER ADMINISTRATION"

Food for thought Tao.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 8:24 PM | Report abuse

St. Joe. Grew up in not near the St. Ben's convent, watching the Jonnies was a long drive, though the St. John's monastery is surely a tob. Where were you?

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 8:19 PM
=====================================

St. Joe McCarthy?

Posted by: Brigade | February 27, 2011 8:26 PM | Report abuse

@ABC

"One of the challenges in writing fiction is having to deal with so many details that are supposed to ring true."

Indeed! This is where I feel very fortunate.
I've been blessed with an incredible variety of life experiences from a war zone to surviving a near fatal motorcycle crash, a plane crash with the East Tenn State Basketball team...I've paid my life dues...now I need to pay my writers dues and polish my craft.

I've been far too lazy for far too long when it comes to actually working on things like, structure, prose,..the things that actually make up the nuts and bolts of writing.

I have a gazillion stories inside with the authenticity that comes from experience, I consider myself a storyteller not yet a writer...but I'm working on it. :-)

BTW ABC what is your academic discipline if I'm not getting too personal. Did you teach literature or creative writing?

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 8:30 PM | Report abuse

Wisconsin. That McCarthy was from Wisconsin and he was of an earlier generation. Another example of bias. Conflating Minnesota's Eugene with Wisconsin's Joseph, only someone who thinks we grew up in flyover country would think that. Have you ever had real wild rice?

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 8:35 PM | Report abuse

@shrink and ABC

And it's hard for those of us who used to revere Minnesota politics to comprehend how and when Eugene McCarthy and Fritz Mondale morphed into TPAW and Michelle Bachmann!!!

Hard to figure how Brigade could have possibly confused one of his heroes that great REPUBLICAN Joe McCarthy's home state.
McCarthy must be smiling at many of today's R clones of himself.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 8:40 PM | Report abuse

"And it's hard for those of us who used to revere Minnesota politics to comprehend how and when Eugene McCarthy and Fritz Mondale morphed into TPAW and Michelle Bachmann!"

We'll slide past Hubert, but otherwise, I agree.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 8:46 PM | Report abuse

DD,

What was the percentage of working, intact(mom&dad) families at, or moderately above, the poverty line in 1960?

What was their ethnicity?

What was the legitimacy rate of that cohort?

How was the poverty line, as Federal criteria, determined?

What was the employment rate for those at, or slightly above, the poverty line; ie.: the working poor, lower-middle class?

There, that's not trite or inane.

You know, another way to decimate the middle class is to add to the non-working class by several orders of magnitude.

You can now commence with the all the "Progressive Things"...ad nauseum, et.alia., denunciations and epithets you learned in your 11th grade sociology elective.

Also wiki Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
{{{NO! He doesn't play Barney Stinson on tv}}}

Hell, wiki 1960 for bloody sake...take a walk outside your feckless generational bubble.

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 8:47 PM | Report abuse

tao, still waiting to hear what liberals actually did

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 9:03 PM | Report abuse

@Tao

You need to take a walk outside in 2011!

Not sure what your points are..other than to suggest that the high incidence of out of wedlock births in the black community effect their poverty levels and educational and employment opportunities.

I don't believe anybody would argue that point. But it doesn't really impact today's budgetary constraints. Again as you are aware the big three in our budget...SS 20%..Medicare/Medicaid 20% and DEFENSE 20% take up the lion's share.
Our "safety net" programs comprise about 14%. That's ALL the programs. I'm not going to do the research required to break out how much of it goes to St. Ronnie's 'welfare queens" but I'd speculate it's well under 10%.

And so Tao here is why we liberals/progressives think of conservatives as heartless. Just look at some basic facts!!!

Our society has functioned quite nicely historically with tax rates that consumed about 18% of GDP..and there have been prosperous times where that % got as high as 20%. NOW we are at 14% of GDP in terms of taxation...but what do the conservatives ALWAYS scream...CUT TAXES!!!
Why? You can't provide a single credible link that shows cutting taxes for the wealthy actually improved our economy.

Then when it comes time to cut spending you guys always head for programs that benefit the average American...never things like the subsidies for the oil industries..or building stadia for billionaire owners of sports teams who pay their athletes millions...

But truly the most disgusting part of the modern conservative movement are the moronic bed wetting neo cons. Why is defense spending so sacrosanct?

Again for review...."In inflation-adjusted dollars, the total U.S. defense budget has grown from $432 billion in fiscal 2001 to $720 billion in fiscal 2011, a real increase of approximately 67 percent."

http://armscontrolcenter.org/policy/securityspending/articles/US_vs_Global/

67% !!! This occurred under the rule of George the Stupid...and now R's are afraid to adjust because perhaps that would be admitting what a disastrous moron they foisted on us for 8 years.

But now according to Cantor et al they are contrite and have learned the error of their ways..and so what is their first act after taking control of the House...mess with a woman's right to choose...attempt to bust unions...where are the R ideas for jobs..they've cut taxes..and cut taxes..where the eff are the jobs...again you do realize Einstein's famous definition of insanity....

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 9:10 PM | Report abuse

shrink You don't like Hubert? But you named your stadium after him in MSP.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 9:14 PM | Report abuse

I'm not talking about black families (exclusively). Try to bust out of your epistemologically cloistered talking points.

My knowledge of a 1960 working poor family is not academic.

I'm from one.

The Great Society was not a society, nor was it great.

Do I need to actually point that out?

It, uh, failed. And it failed spectacularly for an entire quintile of America, for two generations.

Show me where I'm wrong, DD. And I'll send you a ticket to Detroit***...round trip, I'm not a vengeful man.

{{{***Go ahead blame that joint on Reagan or some hoohaw, make your case}}}

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 9:34 PM | Report abuse

@DDAWD

"tao, still waiting to hear what liberals actually did"

You are a young man perhaps born after St. Ronnie's inauguration. What Tao laid out for you was a rehash of St. Ronnie's race baiting with the "welfare queens" a part of the Southern Strategy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

"In 1980 Republican candidate Ronald Reagan's proclaiming support for "states' rights" at his first Southern campaign stop was cited as evidence[7][8] that the Republican Party was building upon the Southern strategy again."

"Welfare Queens" have now been replaced by Union members as the newest group to fear.

Moynihan a liberal Democrat is famous for his study of the impact of the family breakup in the black community. I don't believe anybody argues that this was a disaster for the AA community and indeed there are many black scholars who have made the same point with their own studies.

As an aside to this age old question DDAWD we have lost three St. Petersburg Policeman in the span of just one month..this after none had been killed for decades. The one common denominator was that black youths committed these murders.
Today in the Sunday editorial our black columnist again lamented the code of "no snitching" in our community on the south side of town.

Alas IMHO DDAWD this tends to get argued from the extreme...that is to say that certainly "some" folks are "getting over" on the system...and so we should punish everyone in our attempts to correct this unfairness. Let's throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let's concentrate on a poor black person who is gaming the system while the Tea Party loons elect a crook who scammed our Federal Gov't so severely he was fired and his Corp paid close to TWO BILLION in fines for Medicare/Medicaid fraud. This crook then took 100 million of his ill gotten lucre and bought out the tea party and the governors mansion in the process. This is what truly turned me into a progressive...the realization that there is scamming going on all the time by people at all the economic levels..but why would I worry so much about the poor welfare queen using her food stamps fraudulently when we have scum like Rick Scott completely getting over on our society. And of course there is also the realization that I do not wish to trade places with those "successful" scammers on our South Side of town.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 9:34 PM | Report abuse

"Show me where I'm wrong, DD."

My evidence is that you still can't come up with what liberals did to attack the virtues you named. I'm not going to refute some moronic assertion that you can't even support. This was your assertion and your definition of the terms. What more do you want?

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 9:41 PM | Report abuse

"Try to bust out of your epistemologically cloistered talking points."

Poster heal thyself! :-)

http://www.classictermpapers.com/african_american.php

In 1960, only 20 percent of the black population finished high school, compared with 43 percent of the white population. African Americans had little access to higher education, except at historically black colleges, and were largely excluded from graduate and professional schools. Only 3 percent of African Americans graduated from college, less than half the white graduation rate of 8 percent.

The small numbers of black professionals were largely confined to serving the black population. They were primarily small businessmen, ministers, teachers, and undertakers-with a few doctors, lawyers and pharmacists. African Americans found minuscule white-collar opportunities in either the public or private sectors where their growth was limited.

Outside the black community, African Americans worked in unskilled industrial or service jobs. Black women, in particular, labored almost exclusively as domestic servants where their wages were not those of white citizens and were often treated as slaves with little or no job security.

Today, about 86 percent of African Americans from 25 to 29 years of age have graduated from high school, a rate comparable to that of whites. In 1980, 8 percent of African Americans were graduating from college, still less than half the white rate of 17 percent. Today, about a third of black high school graduates attend college and 13 percent graduate. Although the gap is narrowing, white students attend college at a higher rate (about 42 percent) than African Americans, and about 23 percent graduate."

"Show me where I'm wrong, DD. And I'll send you a ticket to Detroit**"

Does that offer apply to me as well. I'll take my ticket to Copper Harbor also in Michigan. :-)

Having said all this it is certainly true that many successful blacks are leaving their brethren behind in the 'hood. Whether this is solely the cause of our "welfare system", cultural breakdowns can be debated. Thomas Sowell and others have repeatedly preached from that pulpit. But it is simply untrue to suggest that blacks haven't come a long way since 1960. I realize you are a very religious man Tao and so perhaps that is what is really bothering you...all the children out of wedlock...well guess what...I'm old enough to agree with you on that one, even though I'm not religious.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 9:50 PM | Report abuse

"You don't like Hubert?"

It isn't whether I like someone, I never met him. HHH was a good man, sort of. He was not what the country needed nor wanted, so they chose Nixon.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 9:52 PM | Report abuse

"so they chose Nixon."

If I was from Wasilla I might tweet..."How'd that work out for the country?" :-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 9:54 PM | Report abuse

@shrink-Bigger and badder than St. Joe.

@ruk-We can skip that part, but lucky you to have so much material even if it sounds like some rough experiences.

Posted by: AllButCertain | February 27, 2011 10:00 PM | Report abuse

ruk, I was just a baby during the Reagan years, but his legacy didn't end with his Presidency. I had the fortune of being one of those poor minorities in an urban environment. You know, those people too worthless to make lots of money and make anything of ourselves, but those of us who do have dreams of leaving the inner city were stealing jobs and opportunities from deserving white people. Pretty tough to balance the Republican desires to make it rich, but also remain poor.

Most social issues have an economic background. Breakup of families is no different. Fortunately I had both parents, but both of them worked all day, so I had enough face time with the streets. But that kind of stress tears families apart. I know this. I've never been wealthy, but I am no longer on the edge of financial ruin either and that makes a hell of a lot of difference. And yeah, you see more crimes in the inner city, but you have to feel something for teenage drug dealers who simply feel they need to do this to survive. Compare that to Conservative heroes like Ken Lay, Bernie Madoff, and Rick Scott who steal hundreds of millions of dollars they don't even need.

This is all on the account of crappy economic policy, not some liberal attacks on the virtues of hard work.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 10:01 PM | Report abuse

Some perhaps surprising info: David Koch is a prime sponsor of both "Nature" and "Nova" on PBS and gave $100M to MIT for its cancer institute.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 27, 2011 10:08 PM | Report abuse

Look at this chart:

http://www.businessinsider.com/usa-inc-2010-income-statement

Eliminate all of Defense spending. ALL OF IT. We're still in deficit.

What higher tax rate/tax brackets will make up $694Billion?

Confiscate all the income of the top 1%. ALL OF IT ($1,685,472,000; AGI/2008; $380,000/yr plus). You're still close to just just breaking even.

That's 2010, before Obamacare really starts kickin'. To sustain this path taxes are going to have to significantly rise for everyone with a job. Everyone.

This, of course, will have no effect whatsoever on the economy.

That's the ticket.

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 10:08 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD

"This is all on the account of crappy economic policy, not some liberal attacks on the virtues of hard work."

Ironically it could actually be the Republican attack on hard work...they are the ones who are rewarding crooks like Scott..who embraced Gordon Gecko's greed is good. IMO at the end of the day the fact that you escaped the hood along with many others according to the statistics I pointed out show that it's not really about race.

I do wonder DDAWD about those who are left behind. I get the difference that here on the "North" side of St. Pete we would not hesitate to turn in a criminal while on the "South" side there is a strict code of silence. Some of it is because of the history of police brutality in that community...I get that..to many the police are still the "enemy", but that brutality has largely abated...we've had a black police chief and of course many black officers. Some of it is simple fear. Gangs on the south side are no different than the mafia..they threaten and commit violence on anybody believed to be cooperating with the authorities. Still this is not just a "black" or "Italian" thing. We now have gangs in our poorer white communities and even the Asian communities have gangs. If a "tiger" mom can't help..well.....crappy economic policies are certainly not the answer.

I'm not really sure what the answer is...I like reading 12Bar and shrink because at least they provide some hope...while I respect Cao's intellect he can certainly be a gloomy Gus. lol I'm not willing to give up. One day I'll get Cao and his mate to visit St. Petersburg and he'll see an island of beauty and decency in the heart of crackerland.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 10:15 PM | Report abuse

"Some perhaps surprising info: David Koch is a prime sponsor of both "Nature" and "Nova" on PBS and gave $100M to MIT for its cancer institute."

It's called "cover.". Duh.

Really enjoyable comments today everyone. Very thought provoking. ;-)

Posted by: TrollMcWingnut | February 27, 2011 10:18 PM | Report abuse

"Bigger and badder than St. Joe."

St. Could? Wow. The big city.

Where I grew up. Krebsbachs was the gas station and Linnemans was the store. Now, there is a freeway nearby and the Lake Wobegon Trail, piffle.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 10:19 PM | Report abuse

"But it is simply untrue to suggest that blacks haven't come a long way since 1960."

No shyte, like half of the men I played high-school and college football with in the '70's.

I'd say that has more to do with Dr. King and the Civil Rights Act.

Dem social and economic policies didn't just harm minorities. They gutted entire cities. Detroit's just the biggest.

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 10:21 PM | Report abuse

"...were stealing jobs and opportunities from deserving white people."

If you think that poisoned bullsh!t is what even a tenth of the population thought when you were growing up in the '80's, you've been fed a pile of anthrax that you'll be lucky to ever overcome.

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 10:31 PM | Report abuse

"If you think that poisoned bullsh!t is what even a tenth of the population thought when you were growing up in the '80's"

Nope. America has matured faster than you people. Pretty dismal failure of your messaging, no? All the Jesse Helms, Andrew Breitbarts, and James O'Keefes of the world and you guys still can't reverse the acceptance of minorities. I don't expect you to stop trying. I saw the David Vitter ads.

There's a reason that the GOP has alienated pretty much every minority group. And if it helps you sleep at night to think it's because Dems embrace the laziness of minorities or whatever nonsense you want to think, then go ahead and think it.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 27, 2011 10:48 PM | Report abuse

DD,

BTW: I live in Schenectady, NY. A small city that the Dems in state and city government basically chased GE out of with taxes and regs. The unions helped too! Neither Schenectady nor Albany has had a GOP mayor in over 50 years (IIRC).

Schenectady has approx. 22% of the city population receiving some form of government assistance.

Twenty-five percent of the population is minority.

I, and many others, coach City-Rec youth sports here.

Who the hell do you think we're coaching?

Take your resentment and ingratitude, and your attitude, and your locked-up mind, and your stethoscope, and jam.......

Actually, I hope you have a great career, help people, and find peace.

Really.

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 10:50 PM | Report abuse

@Tao

Here is the flaw in your argument. The income portion of your pie is predicated on our economy staying stuck forever in the sh!tter. If the economy ever grows again, and IMO it will even if slowly... balancing the budget is not that difficult.
The income side goes up and the 18% on UE goes down for starters. But again we are paying roughly 14% of GDP in taxes according to REPUBLICAN Bruce Bartlett, 15% in your chart. Historically we've paid 18% and have had prosperous times at 20%. At 10% increase above our current 14% would be 1.4 TRILLION more in revenue actually providing a surplus in your chart. 24% of GDP fixes your problem overnight. Many successful nations pay as much as 50% of their GDP...but let's try and stay at the 18% norm. It's not really that hard Tao.

In the 1950's Corporations contributed 25% of our national income. St. Ronnie and the George II helped gin it down to it's present 9% (according to your chart I've seen other charts where it is 8% but why quibble.). We did OK in the 50's but rather than go all the way back to 25% how about just 18%? Roughly 200 Billion more in income. How about simply returning defense to it's pre George the Stupid levels of 2000 and you save another 300 billion. Look two simple moves and we're halfway there. Eliminate the cap on FICA and The CRS estimates that almost $100 billion in annual revenue would result from eliminating the cap. Grow the economy by 3% and create some jobs along the way and you increase revenues while decreasing that 18% allotted to UE.

See how easy and nothing really draconian.
The 800 lb gorilla is not SS...it's Medicare/Medicaid, basically our horribly flawed health care system that is wreaking havoc. I've read reams and reams on this subject and at the end of the day virtually every expert comes to the conclusion we must emulate other nations and budget our health care. Free enterprise has proven to be an abysmal failure. You see that 22% figure in your budget, it's 15% of our GDP..most countries get by on 10%. Until we address health care in a rational manner we're screw!d. Tort reform 1-3% savings...eliminating procedure driven medicine a BUNCH of $$$...using hospice and other means to deal with end of life issues...more $$$..stopping the stupidity
e.g. currently there are several ladies in my mother in law's nursing home who could do well in assisted living. Medicaid in Florida does not cover assisted living..so instead of paying $2,000 monthly we are paying $8,000 under this all or out on the street system.

The deficit is something to deal with..it's not the bogeyman the conservative talkers have made it out to be.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 10:55 PM | Report abuse

"...were stealing jobs and opportunities from deserving white people."

If you think that poisoned bullsh!t is what even a tenth of the population thought when you were growing up in the '80's, you've been fed a pile of anthrax that you'll be lucky to ever overcome.

==

You're full of it up to the eyeballs.

Alll that southern strategy talk about quotas, affirmative action, the Jesse Helms "hands" ad ... all of this, and the core of the southern strategy, was dog whistle for "a nịgger got the job that was rightfully yours."

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 11:07 PM | Report abuse

@tao Sorry about the problems of upstate N.Y. I find it sad that you believe the unions chased out G.E. Jeffrey Immelt's China, China, China attitude couldn't have anything to do with it...I mean did GE offshore any of their products...perhaps not all the way offshore but simply to Texas or some other state willing to prostitute it's labor force to steal another state's employers. Let's all race down to the bottom together shall we. Soon we'll earn what the Chinese earn and we'll finally have a level playing field...ohhh but that's after we gut OSHA and the EPA as well.

The Keeweenaw Penisula on Michigan's UP has suffered a fate worse than upstate N.Y.
When the Copper mines closed and went to South America...stupid unions..stupid EPA...towns like Calumet MI..once actually considered as perhaps a suitable capital have become virtual ghost towns. The Keeweenaw and indeed most of the U.P. are one of those areas of the U.S. that is actually experiencing a declining population. BTW these are all white folks with nary a minority except on the campus of Michigan Tech. Many of these citizens are "Apostolics" they have huge families..double digits are not uncommon..and they are forced to live like church mice as a result.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 11:09 PM | Report abuse

hi cao,

I'm not a dog, can't hear the whistle.

Are you saying Americans are dogs?

Know any good dog recipes yet?

{{{giggle&out}}}

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 11:18 PM | Report abuse

@Cao

Glad you're back. I do not pretend to try and defend the Sunshine State. Who can really defend a state that elected a known crook? A state that has repeatedly sent R's to Tallahassee to steal and take care of their crony capitalist friends.

I will say however Cao that you and your significant other should visit St. Petersburg. We are an island..an oasis of culture in the desert of cracker land.
We were recently named as the leading mid sized city for the arts beating out DDAWD's New Orleans and Arlington. We have a vibrant gay community that has contributed mightily to our success including "gentrifying" many of our run down areas. Cao..St. Pete even has a "Pink Pages" and an annual gay pride march.

Ironically just across the bay in Tampa the homophobes run wild...as do the crackers flying the stars and bars. I simply stay on this side of the bridge.:-)

We are not without problems but we are "exceptional" when compared to the rest of the state.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 11:19 PM | Report abuse

Oops...Before I go.

Thanks RU.

We're (still) not really that far apart.
Other than age ;>).

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 11:21 PM | Report abuse

There's a reason that the GOP has alienated pretty much every minority group. And if it helps you sleep at night to think it's because Dems embrace the laziness of minorities or whatever nonsense you want to think, then go ahead and think it.

=

He's required to believe that. The idea that the Democrats pander to minorities for votes is in his bloody DNA. Never mind all the racism coming from the GOP, why, that's a delusion. Studies show that fewer than one in ten signs at te party rallies express racist sentiment. And Republicans trying to end affirmative action, why, they're just principled against quotas. Pshaw.

Republican laws loosing the cops with anyone lacking an Irish complexion, nothing more than legitimate security concerns around undocumented workers and, uh, umm, respect for the law. Yeah, that's it, respect for the law. We'd go after then just as harshly if they were norweigans.

And gays? Gotta protect The Childrun and Traditional Marriage. Just ask Newt and Rush.

Nuts. It's racism that brings Republicans to the polls.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 11:22 PM | Report abuse

Night Tao...no we aren't that far apart...just how much older than me are you? :-)

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 11:24 PM | Report abuse

Time for bed...btw Cao I left out another important aspect of St. Petersburg..we have a very vibrant Vietnamese community. In fact my brother in law is headed your way in a couple of months along with his Vietnamese wife. I remember asking you for advice on where to stay but then I discovered they are staying with my sister in law's relatives.

Funny how life works out...Vietnamese immigrants here and you emigrating there.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 27, 2011 11:28 PM | Report abuse

Congrats, Tao, you've sunk all the way to Brigade's level. That takes some doing.

The dog restaurants are in the north. The people who procure them get burned alive.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 27, 2011 11:28 PM | Report abuse

"The people who procure them get burned alive."

Wow, that's a b!tch.

{{{aahh-hahahaha-woof}}}

I know, I'm going for serious Sub-Brigade...ITS. A. JOKE.

O&O 4real

Posted by: tao9 | February 27, 2011 11:46 PM | Report abuse

I'll have to disagree, ruk, based on a recent visit to Tampa and the University of South Florida. There's a decent community about and the spring rolls that my host provided were excellent. Lunch was at a German brats and brew place that would happily find a home in Madison, Wisconsin.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | February 27, 2011 11:56 PM | Report abuse

Total bullsh*t. Very few people don't believe in evolution. It's just when the word is used as a dog whistle for "there is no God" or "life on earth is an accident" that non-liberals see very little reason to engage. Conservatives deal in facts; liberals live in the echo chamber.

==

Conservatives deal in facts? Facts like Iraqi weapons and trickle-down prosperity? Like ACA death panels and supply-side successes?

You're funny!

Anyway, I feel compelled to correct your deplorable scientific misapprehensions; not for you, who are beyond hope of educability, but for the interetestd reader.

(1) "life is an accident"

No educated person would claim this. Life didn't arise after billions of years of sterile pyrimidine soup, life appeared as soon as the earth cooled enough for organic molecules to remain stable. And there is evidence that the now-universal nucleic acid / adenosine chemistry wa preceded by more primitive varieties catalyzed by mineral binding sites. Pre-prokaryotic rock-dependent forms.

(2) "deny the existence of God"

I hardly know where to start. Your reasoning is scrambled like a pair of eggs at a working man's diner. But I'll start by noting that leaping from yet-to-be-completed science to purely supernatural explanations for the appearance of life, or for anything else, is witless folly. Sorry if you don't like hearing belief in God referred to as supernatural, but that's exacty what it is. This is campfire theology. A dog howls in the distance, unimpeachable corroboration.

Sure, lots of scientists believe in God. But you won't see that belief woven into their publications or hypotheses, not unless they're tenured at one of those shabby fundamentalist "colleges" that turn out "experts" in global warming denial and the veracity of Genesis.

I mean, really.

"Ultraviolet and electrical discharge produced a sea of nucleic and amino acids AND THEN A MIRACLE OCCURRED .. "

(2a) Nobody with the mosts rudimentary aquaintance with logic would demand proof of a negative. That isn't how it works. If you believe in God, in a supernatural being transcendent of logic, the burden of evidence is entirely on you.

Get an education, Brigade.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 1:34 AM | Report abuse

Very few people don't believe in evolution. .... Conservatives deal in facts

==

"Fascinating" -- Mr. Spock

Pretty much everyone who disbelieves in evolution is conservative, and any Republican who wants any chance of being elected is required to claim exactly this disbelief.

Remember the 2008 Republican primaries? The fourteen candidates for the presidential nomination were asked about their belief. Hate to be the bearer but "very few" raised their hands.

And ignoring for a moment the strict prudence of scientific caution, evolution is about as close to a fact as you can get in science. So it's not as though conservatives deal scrupulously in facts, at least not where science is concerned.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 2:27 AM | Report abuse

shrink-I have a story for you that combines Lake Woebegone and cognitive dissonance. Several years ago my husband and I were in Dublin, which was a research trip for me. I spent the time holed away in the National Archives and my husband investigated the city. One day, he discovered the James Joyce Museum. He spent a very interesting hour talking with a man who eventually identified himself as Joyce's nephew.

It was a myth comes to life sort of moment for my husband, until the nephew asked him where he was from and my husband said Minnesota.

The nephew's reply?

"Ah. Garrison country."


Posted by: AllButCertain | February 28, 2011 2:28 AM | Report abuse

This one, unrelated to any topic under discussion, was thrown in to impress us with his intelligence. He knows how to read and google and doesn't want those skills to atrophy

==

Oh my no, nothing of the sort. If impressing with intelligence was my goal I could have tossed in a pile of math.

It's an "open thread," Brigade, and with many people taking this so literally as to write dozens of posts about professional sports, I chose instead to write about a topic more interesting to me and, one hopes, to others. Perhaps in your haste you overlooked (or perhaps couldn't understand) the essential point: there is almost no possibility that these velocity distributions can be explained without some fundamental extension of physics.

If that means nothing more to you than "trying to impress people with intellect" then, candidly, you have my pity.

Politics and sports are ephemera, relevant to a few regions on one world over a short span of time. What we learn to explain those velocities, whatever is the reason the galaxies aren't flying apart, is germane to every quartic femtometer of space-time.

And, yes, wikipedia is a good place to learn more and yes that's where I started. Sue me. But if anyone wants to dive in and learn more about a very exciting investigation, one could do worse than my current night table tome:

http://www.amazon.com/Particle-Dark-Matter-Observations-Searches/dp/0521763681/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1298883932&sr=8-1

Oh dear, impressing with intellect again. A *book* for heaven's sake.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 4:08 AM | Report abuse

"And it's hard for those of us who used to revere Minnesota politics to comprehend how and when Eugene McCarthy and Fritz Mondale morphed into TPAW and Michelle Bachmann!"

We'll slide past Hubert, but otherwise, I agree.

Posted by: shrink2 | February 27, 2011 8:46 PM
========================================

Probably should slide past Wellstone, too. What a buffoon.

Posted by: Brigade | February 28, 2011 6:29 AM | Report abuse

Some perhaps surprising info: David Koch is a prime sponsor of both "Nature" and "Nova" on PBS and gave $100M to MIT for its cancer institute.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | February 27, 2011 10:08 PM
=======================================

A true patriot would have just let the government handle it all.

Posted by: Brigade | February 28, 2011 6:35 AM | Report abuse

Sure, lots of scientists believe in God. But you won't see that belief woven into their publications or hypotheses, not unless they're tenured at one of those shabby fundamentalist "colleges" that turn out "experts" in global warming denial and the veracity of Genesis.

I mean, really.

"Ultraviolet and electrical discharge produced a sea of nucleic and amino acids AND THEN A MIRACLE OCCURRED .. "

(2a) Nobody with the mosts rudimentary aquaintance with logic would demand proof of a negative. That isn't how it works. If you believe in God, in a supernatural being transcendent of logic, the burden of evidence is entirely on you.

Get an education, Brigade.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 1:34 AM
=========================================

It gets tiresome having to continually correct your rants. "Lots of scientists believe in God." That was sort of the point. According to DDAWD, conservatives can't believe in both God and science because they don't believe in "evolution", which he conveniently neglected to define. The burden of evidence is no more on me than you; in fact, I was not trying to prove anything other than DDAWD's ignorance and bigotry. Mission accomplished.

Posted by: Brigade | February 28, 2011 6:47 AM | Report abuse

And ignoring for a moment the strict prudence of scientific caution, evolution is about as close to a fact as you can get in science. So it's not as though conservatives deal scrupulously in facts, at least not where science is concerned.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 2:27 AM
=======================================

Sorry, ole boy. It's the "facts" part of evolution that conservatives are down with. It's those pesky theological conclusions that liberals so frequently employ that are the problem. Facts good. Conclusions, not always.

Posted by: Brigade | February 28, 2011 6:50 AM | Report abuse

@BB

I wasn't trying to throw Tampa totally under the bus...there are 'some" redeeming values...but compared to St. Pete it's not exactly an open visionary community. It's also reflected in the editorial stances of our two major newspapers..the Tampa Tribune and the St. Pete Times. The Tampans like to call the Times "Pravda West".

But how about some good news from the state of Florida this morning...

http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/is-floridas-declining-teen-pregnancy-rate-a-trend-or-a-blip/1154280

ST. PETERSBURG — The birth rate for 15- to 17-year-olds has fallen 19 percent, a decline in Florida that surprises public health officials and teenagers alike.

Florida logged the second-highest drop in the nation behind Arizona, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. For every 1,000 teenagers here, there were five fewer babies born in 2009 than in 2007. Eighteen and 19-year-olds had 20 fewer babies — a 15 percent dip.

It's good news because statistics show that young moms and their babies face tough futures and cost society about $9.1 billion a year.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 28, 2011 6:50 AM | Report abuse

Hmm, who to believe. An articulate Ph.D. In medical practice who understands scientific method or a potty-mouth rage case in a dead-end obsolescent COBOL-slinging job, proud of supernatural beliefs.

Wow, tough one.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 6:51 AM | Report abuse

Oh dear, impressing with intellect again. A *book* for heaven's sake.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 4:08 AM
========================================

May I recommend PEOPLE OF THE LAKE or DRAGONS OF EDEN. Oh, wait---too many of their "facts" have since been refuted.

Posted by: Brigade | February 28, 2011 6:52 AM | Report abuse

Sorry, ole boy. It's the "facts" part of evolution that conservatives are down with. It's those pesky theological conclusions that liberals so frequently employ that are the problem. Facts good. Conclusions, not always.

==

That theology of evolution is made of straw. There's no such thing. You're stuck at Scopes trial arguments.

And conservatives are "down with" a fantasy they call microevolution, unable to rebut evidence like the Peppered Moth but still digging in heels at human descent from lesser primates. So cut the crap.

You like facts, here's one. No Conservative can run for elective office while publicly accepting evolution and win.

You haven't proven squat, and when it comes to the natural sciences, the scientific method, and basic logic, you're nothing but a dumb hick with a big mouth.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 6:59 AM | Report abuse

And conservatives are "down with" a fantasy they call microevolution, unable to rebut evidence like the Peppered Moth but still digging in heels at human descent from lesser primates. So cut the crap.

You like facts, here's one. No Conservative can run for elective office while publicly accepting evolution and win.

You haven't proven squat, and when it comes to the natural sciences, the scientific method, and basic logic, you're nothing but a dumb hick with a big mouth.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 6:59 AM
==================================

a. You're probably thinking of the Mothman of West Virginia.

b. What part of evolution can't they publicly accept?

c. I wasn't attempting to "prove" anything. And I know you are, but what am I?

Posted by: Brigade | February 28, 2011 7:07 AM | Report abuse

Brigade said:

""That's when I knew you were really talking about government "compassion".""

12Bar replied:

""I don't understand the division.""

And that is precisely the problem.

Compassion is something that is felt and practiced not by "a people" but by individuals. "Society" does not "feel" compassion, nor does government. It is a phenomenon particular to individual human beings. So when you say:

""I understand your point that government should not be compassionate.""

...you quite obviously don't understand at all. The point is not that government "should" not be compassionate. It is that wanting the government to tax Peter to pay Paul is NOT an expression of compassion, as you and so many of your progressive brethren bizarrely seem to believe.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 28, 2011 7:16 AM | Report abuse

There he goes with "Peter and Paul" again.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 7:29 AM | Report abuse

Lo, the destruction of the Obamanation is at hand. Lord Obama is wasting what is LEFT of his political capital on homosexuals , illegal "immigrants", and fat, public sector unionistas.

The real problems go unattended.

Jimmy Carter, move over!

You are about to have company in your little club.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 28, 2011 7:33 AM | Report abuse

Scott, what is this conceptual block of yours? To presume you're trolling would be generous because any other possiibility falls into some category of psychopathology.

The government taxes Peter and Paul to create a job for Jethro, and sends Jethro to some war nobody benefits from. Peter and Paul have to pony up to pay for schools so Cletus' and Debby can send Dakota and Rienna to first grade. Peter gts taxed so Paul has a highway to drive to work on. Paul gets taxed to pay for a fire department even though his house doesn't even burn down.

It's called civilization.

But when it comes to something like a social safety net, a system that makes some vicissitude of fate a recoverable condition instead of a death sentence for the briefly unlucky, you feign to see tyranny and injustice.

And no, I'm not interested in discussing the principles behind the presumptions underlying the preferences. It's pretty hard not to conclude that you were born without some basic human feature and that you're little more than an articulate sociopath.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 7:40 AM | Report abuse

The problem with the Obamacrats is that they will tax Peter and have no intention to pay Paul anything.

They will simply print more money and go about business, as usual.

That is, until the house of Obama falls.

Which will be pretty soon now.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 28, 2011 7:45 AM | Report abuse

cao:

""Scott, what is this conceptual block of yours?""

It's not mine, it is yours.

""It's called civilization.""

The question I was addressing was whether or not is was an expression of "compassion". It isn't.

""...you feign to see tyranny and injustice.""

You are imagining things (or perhaps more likely just making them up). I was discussion the relationship between government taxation/spending and the concept of compassion, not tyranny/injustice.

""And no, I'm not interested in discussing...""

I know. You have made it quite clear you have no interest in analyzing whether your thinking is logically and internally coherent. Tis a shame.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 28, 2011 7:54 AM | Report abuse

college sports, not professional. Get it right!

Posted by: DDAWD | February 28, 2011 7:55 AM | Report abuse

Gee Scott, cutting off the sentence in mid-phrase, that's quite a powerful rhetorical tool. Almost as clever as alteriing the post you're responding to.

Nuts. You're not interested in discussing any relationships of any kind. I'm congnizant of and watching out for this one-note trick of yours of reaching for higher generality and it isn't going to work.

All you're really doing is sneering at the idea of compassion and pretending to be unable to understand how it could be actually institutionalized into government-run programs. As though helping people is only understandable as something that happens between individuals and charities but makes no sense when wrapped in something like a federal agency.

You're one of those people Lakoff writes about, simply opposed to the idea of government helping people, period, and feigning to see monsters in "forcing" compassionate behavior on others. Yes, it takes all kinds. What a wonderful world, some people like to help and other people don't give a sh*t.

Well you go ahead and be as offended as you like, I just wish the human race would stop coughing up rotten people like you.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 8:03 AM | Report abuse

Sorry DDAWD but it all makes my eyes glaze over. For people who love physics these are exttremely interesting times, now that there're other fish to fry besides string theory.

The LHC may finally settle some questions. The dark matter means there is some truly fundamental physics close to discovery. It may be just a perturbative adjustment to the Postulate of Equivalence or it may be a whole mirror family of new particles.

While ST awaits colliders the size of galaxies.

The LHC should reveal the Higgs boson .. presumed real for decades anyway. If it reveals the neutralino, that is a super big damn deal.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 8:10 AM | Report abuse

It looks like the Obamacrat plan to legalize 20,000,000 to 30,000,000 outlaw "immigrants" is hitting a stone wall thanks to the "shellacking" the Obamanation took in the NOVEMBER REVOLUTION (aka midterms).

Now Barack Hosni Obama will be forced to rustle up millions of real, American voters to see him into a second term.

If he does that, I will give him credit for performing a miracle.

Many of his deep-blue, safe states are now fading like old jeans. Meanwhile the red states are reddern ever.

Barack Hosni Obama, the one-term wonder.

Unless that miracle happens.

Posted by: battleground51 | February 28, 2011 8:12 AM | Report abuse

"Compare that to Conservative heroes like Ken Lay, Bernie Madoff, and Rick Scott who steal hundreds of millions of dollars they don't even need."

You can just set aside all the other Liberal Blather and inverted reality above (yeah, right, conservatism's opposition to more big government and not the burgeoning welfare state was an "attack on hard work" (rolling eyes)).

It's absurdities like this that show why someone like DD is an unthinking and unreflective waste of time -- nothing but a perpetually embittered, hateful grievance peddler.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 28, 2011 8:19 AM | Report abuse

"...you quite obviously don't understand at all. The point is not that government "should" not be compassionate. It is that wanting the government to tax Peter to pay Paul is NOT an expression of compassion, as you and so many of your progressive brethren bizarrely seem to believe."

There's a difference between feeling compassion and being compassionate. It's the individuals that feel compassion, but we want that compassion to be reflected in our government. If Obama ordered the military to go out and start killing kittens, I wouldn't be like "well, the government doesn't feel compassion, so I guess it's ok." And I'm not even a cat person.

And it isn't really an argument about compassion. It's about the health of our nation. 9% unemployment is not healthy. These deficits are not healthy. Attacks on labor unions are not healthy for the country. Conservatives love to burn the straw man about class warfare and such, but it's about doing what's best for the country. I'm not sure what Republicans want, exactly. They opposed job creation plans, they opposed deficit reduction like the PPACA. They ran on the deficit, but the only legislation large numbers of Republicans voted for in the past two years was for upper class tax cuts. Hell, they were against middle class tax cuts. This is not healthy policy for the country and whether or not you are one of those people that likes seeing soldiers kill kittens, you'd better think about what is good for long term growth for the country.

Of course, the ramifications will be felt by future generations, possibly within 50 years. So if you don't have compassion, then yeah, you probably aren't too worried about the nation you are leaving for your children. And it takes some type of sociopath to be so entrenched in being a Conservative that he is not concerned about his own children.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 28, 2011 8:19 AM | Report abuse

cao, it's cool. I enjoy your posts. Don't let my lack of a response make you think otherwise. I try to limit talking out of my a** to just politics.

Posted by: DDAWD | February 28, 2011 8:23 AM | Report abuse

cao:

""You're not interested in discussing any relationships of any kind.""

Sure I am. I would love to discuss the relationship between your speicifc beliefs and the principles which ostensibly underly them. But you have rejected such a discussion, presumably to avoid being embarrassed. C'est la vie.

""All you're really doing is sneering at the idea of compassion..."

Wrong. I am simply contesting your twisted understanding of how compassion is manifested.

""...and pretending to be unable to understand how it could be actually institutionalized into government-run programs.""

Wrong. I understand quite fully what I am talking about, and am not "pretending" to be unable to understand anything.

""As though helping people is only understandable as something that happens between individuals and charities but makes no sense when wrapped in something like a federal agency.""

Nice attempt to switch the topic there, but no dice. I never said anything about helping people making no sense when done by a federal agency.

""You're one of those people Lakoff writes about, simply opposed to the idea of government helping people, period...""

Wrong. Again, you attempt to change the topic. I really do wish you would stop making things up.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 28, 2011 8:30 AM | Report abuse

"you probably aren't too worried about the nation you are leaving for your children. And it takes some type of sociopath to be so entrenched in being a Conservative that he is not concerned about his own children."

See? Could there possibly be a more ignorant and arrogant ideologue than this poser?

We're fighting to save our children from the future of bondage and poverty people like you are trying your ignorant best to create. It's something you obviously can't understand.

"They opposed job creation plans, they opposed deficit reduction like the PPACA. They ran on the deficit, but the only legislation large numbers of Republicans voted for in the past two years was for upper class tax cuts. Hell, they were against middle class tax cuts."

Welcome to alternate reality. Hint: the more risible the lies you include, the less plausible it is, and the more foolish you look.

You really should stick to science, where you have some idea what you are talking about.

Posted by: quarterback1 | February 28, 2011 8:33 AM | Report abuse

You're not serious, Scott. Others have called you a masterdebator. And that doesn't mean would it would with a space after the r. I tried before to have an honest discussion with you and it ended up like a puppy chasing its tail.

Yeah, "I never said this" and "I never said that" and"you're changing the subject," this from the guy who prefers to write in terms that refer to nothing.

Just stick to your little "tax Peter to pay Paul" shtick. It's the only daub on your palette. And don't forget to sneer your contempt for ordinary human decency.

If there is any justiice in the world, you'll die in a ditch.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 8:37 AM | Report abuse

Hey QB you look really stupid denying things that were in the news only a few MONTHS AGO.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 8:39 AM | Report abuse

We're fighting to save our children from the future of bondage and poverty

==

Actually what you Conservatives are fighting for IS a future of bondage and poverty.

Posted by: caothien9 | February 28, 2011 8:42 AM | Report abuse

Scott

"Compassion is something that is felt and practiced not by "a people" but by individuals. "Society" does not "feel" compassion, nor does government. It is a phenomenon particular to individual human beings."

I don't know what your hangup is here Scott. You keep bleating this falsehood ad nauseum when it's so apparently untrue.

Societies DO exhibit collective traits such as compassion or the lack thereof.
Societies have different "norms" in these areas and so perhaps it is your concept of compassion that is confusing you. A society can definitely be compassionate.
I will readily concede that this is not a black and white descriptor. Some societies like ours give lots to charities, others have more Gov't protection for their citizens. But Scott you are simply mistaken about societies and entire groups of people not exhibiting what we might call "personality traits".

http://socyberty.com/psychology/how-nations-like-the-united-states-of-america-exhibit-personality-disorders/

"A person’s characteristic traits, coping styles and ways of interacting socially emerge during childhood and under normal circumstances will crystallize into established patterns by the end of adolescence or early adult hood. These traits and behaviors constitute an individual’s personality. For most adults, personality is attuned to the demands of the society they find themselves in. What this means is that most people act or behave according to their society’s norms or expectation.

If a person diverts from the norms expected by their society, that person is said to have a personality disorder. For there to be a diagnosis of a personality disorder, the pattern of behaviour must be pervasive and must be manifest in at least two of the following areas; cognition, interpersonal functioning, affect and impulse control. People find the behaviour of individuals with personality disorders confusing, exasperating, unpredictable and to varying degrees unacceptable.

This got me thinking about the general human population and how although we are similar our mannerisms are different depending on our societies. One society may have certain traits and mannerism that would be considered a disorder in another society"

Now if I wished to be snarky Scott perhaps our society is too compassionate for your tastes leaving you stuck with a "personality disorder" relative to our society.

Posted by: rukidding7 | February 28, 2011 8:42 AM | Report abuse

All, Morning Roundup posted:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/the_morning_plum_195.html

Posted by: Greg Sargent | February 28, 2011 8:42 AM | Report abuse

cao:

""You're not serious, Scott."

Sure I am.

""I tried before to have an honest discussion with you and it ended up like a puppy chasing its tail.""

Actaully it ended why you refused to identify the principles that ground your thinking.

""Yeah, "I never said this" and "I never said that" and"you're changing the subject," this from the guy who prefers to write in terms that refer to nothing.""

If you want to have a serious discussion, you have to address what I actually say, not make things up and attack straw men. Since you so persistently engage in the latter, you are obviously not interested in the former. Too bad.

""If there is any justiice in the world, you'll die in a ditch.""

Ah, your spectacular compassion and human decency shows itself again. You are a card, cao.

Posted by: ScottC3 | February 28, 2011 8:48 AM | Report abuse

caothien9's "die in a ditch" wishful thinking is a near perfect illustration of the Leftist refusal to cite empirical evidence or objective assessments supporting their positions, in favor of sweeping generalizations, delusional irrationality and distorted or false evidence.

It's difficult to understand why any classical liberal (in the Friedman or Hayek sense) would engage in serious discussions with the snake oil salesmen of false compassion.

QB or Scott would be better off accepting the vicious "ditch death" wishes as irrefutable evidence of cao's intellectual bankruptcy.

Conservatives: 1
Leftist: 0

/game over

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | February 28, 2011 8:53 AM | Report abuse

Is any Journalist working on the Issa criminal File yet. Issa has a long criminal history and it seems he is now in charge of seeing if his friends the Banks committed a crime. Issa might want to see the Oscar winning INSIDE JOB, which shows how Banks/Corporation committed fraud/stealing of trillions in taxpayers money and got away with it, as they continue today. Not one CEO has been charged with the crime of the century but little nickle dime Bernie Madoff is in jail.

Are the Koch Bros. ready to remove Obama from the White House now that they have enough paid law makers and Judges in place. Roger Ailes will need to call in favors with his criminal charge pending. Will Gaddafi move in with his friend Dick Cheney. Can George W. Bush leave the US with so many foreign warrants for his arrest.

Posted by: qqbDEyZW | February 28, 2011 3:28 PM | Report abuse

"Ironically it could actually be the Republican attack on hard work...they are the ones who are rewarding crooks like Scott..who embraced Gordon Gecko's greed is good. Posted by: rukidding7"

Just consider this.

Today in an article on states that forbid unionization of teachers the DDN reported that the average Ohio teacher's salary is $54,800. Assuming that is paycheck salary, the full cost of an average teacher to Ohio is just less than $75,000.

So how does The republican Governor and his party offer to show its feelings for that teacher, who provides one of the most important services to the community, State, and nation? By taking away his rights and cutting his pay.

But consider the derivatives trader who builds derivatives packages nearly guaranteed to fail so that his company can bet against them and make lots of money, in the process putting his company out of business and forcing the Government to step in to protect investors. How does John Kasich propose to deal with this paragon of social virtue? By letting him keep extra amounts of his million dollar paychecks, and by continuing to pay him those million dollar paychechs to work with his defunct company to try to sort out the mess he made, because, "he is the only person who understands what he has done." (No including those of us who understand that he wrecked the economy and defrauded lots of investors of lots of money.)

And from this lesson in market economics how is an undergrad trying to pick a major to draw a conclusion as to where to look for a career?

Based on the principle of economic self interest the republicans are telling us that we are far better to learn Securities Fraud and choose that as a career than to learn to be a teacher and serve our community.

Somebody might want to bring this forward some day, although I have to make sure I get a copy because it may not even pass the held for review function.

Posted by: ceflynline | February 28, 2011 4:15 PM | Report abuse

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