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Posted at 3:23 PM ET, 12/28/2010

Obama and Michael Vick: the president's American values

By Stephen Stromberg

Barack Obama is a real American. I don't just mean that, according to some reliable accounts, he was born here. I mean that he extols some of the most American of values.

Sure, President Obama is a good family man, he's hardworking, and he pulled himself up from nothing. But one of the most essential of American principles is one that doesn't get enough attention from the values crowd: the importance of giving people second chances. America, I hear, is the land of that sort of thing. See, for example, Obama's praise Monday of the Philadelphia Eagles for hiring Michael Vick, the once-disgraced professional quarterback who spent some time in prison for running a dog-fighting ring at one of his homes in Virginia.

The Post's Perry Bacon reports:

Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie told Peter King of Sports Illustrated and NBC Sports that during their conversation Obama was passionate about Vick's comeback.

"He said, 'So many people who serve time never get a fair second chance,' " said Lurie, who did not indicate when the call occurred. "He said, 'It's never a level playing field for prisoners when they get out of jail.' And he was happy that we did something on such a national stage that showed our faith in giving someone a second chance after such a major downfall.''

Vick, of course, is now one of the best players in the NFL, and the public is rapidly accepting his remorse as genuine and his comeback as praiseworthy.

In a culture that seems so often to tear down those it builds up, it's important to recognize the unique willingness -- even eagerness -- of American society to accept that those who have made mistakes can rehabilitate themselves through hard work, discipline and other virtues. This tendency is not just embedded in Hollywood movies. It's in the way we often speak about prisons themselves. They are "correctional facilities," though the criminal justice system -- which, like that street in the Offspring's "The Kids Aren't Alright," swallows so many lives -- isn't among the best examples.

Our bankruptcy laws are. Even after it became more punitive to debtors in 2005, American law is unusually lenient in allowing folks to liquidate and start over. As Megan McArdle explained last year in the midst of the Troubled Assets Relief Program, this is unfair, but it also encourages entrepreneurship. Most small businesses fail. But it's those that succeed -- encouraged by the American system's willingness to forgive failure -- that separate America from the third world -- or even the stagnant economies of Europe.

Construed this way, mercy can be ethical and efficient. And, especially when it comes to ex-convicts -- or some of the currently incarcerated who should be contenders for executive pardon -- Americans could be yet more forgiving, as Ezra Klein points out. I'm glad the president said so.

Update, 9:50 a.m.: Richard Cohen has a worthwhile piece up this morning blasting the "sanctimony" of those who defend Vick's rehabilitation. He's surely right that it was far easier for Vick because of the quarterback's renown and talent. But that doesn't necessarily imply that opportunity for ex-convicts to redeem themselves should be equally impossible -- it should be more equally available.

By Stephen Stromberg  | December 28, 2010; 3:23 PM ET
Categories:  Stromberg  | Tags:  Stephen Stromberg  
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Comments

Yes and he comes from Hawaii illegally taken from its people just like our land and the promises still flow just like they did to the Indians. But now all the land has been divvied up and the land of opportunity dries up and the rich begin inheriting the lands that lured the immigrants to come and grab... then on to the Middle East to open new multi-national marketplaces, with the blood our less advantaged people, so the elite can have States for Dinner.

Posted by: Wildthing1 | December 28, 2010 3:45 PM | Report abuse

You clearly haven't experienced asking for a second chance in America and you are flat wrong if you think that the credit scoring system (FICO) is forgiving or forgetful of anything! Vick is still disgraced throughout most of America and you really need to take a road trip to find out how wrong your opinion is.

Posted by: dh2003 | December 28, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

This horrible rag, the Post drives me nuts with the constant selling of the president who is constantly campaigning for himself. ENOUGH already! Isn't there anything else to write about?

Posted by: steveiev | December 28, 2010 4:10 PM | Report abuse

"The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes..."

(Not really a Republican concept.)

Posted by: rowens1 | December 28, 2010 4:38 PM | Report abuse

Wildthing1, you need to cease drinking all your meals from small brown paper bags and wake up!

Posted by: nmg3rln | December 28, 2010 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Obama celebrating a dog-killer and Felon.....I guess this goes along with his love of Bill Ayers and Reverand Wright! How could this fool ever be elected President.....November 2012 can't come quick enough.

Posted by: Realist201 | December 28, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

As a half-black man in America Obama obviously enjoys a good dog fight just as much as Mike Vick.

Posted by: oldno7 | December 28, 2010 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Pretty soon WaPo readers will be following along in flowery detail Obama's bathroom habits and the mention that his (expletive) don't stink!

Posted by: JAH3 | December 28, 2010 5:03 PM | Report abuse


Obama hard working? And how many vacations has he been on?

Since he was young he has been pushed along by his mentors: Frank Davis, Bill Ayers, Percy Sutton, al Mansour, Tony Rezko, Khalidi, Alice Palmer, Dr. Quinton Young and the list goes on.

When Obama was 20 and went to Pakistan he coincidentally stayed at the home of the 2008 Acting President Soomro. Coincidence? Hmmmmmm.

Yeah, he worked his way up all right. With a little help from his friends.

Obama who grew up in the company of those who weren't quite typical Americans, does not have the mindset of a real American. And I'm not saying he wasn't born in HI.

But a real American would never say the US is not exceptional. A real American would never go on an apology tour throughout the world. A real American would never put the US under the scrutiny of the UN Human Rights Council which is comprised of rogue nations. And they are judging us?

From what I am reading in the Wapo articles and blogs today, it is evident you Journolistas are geering up your campaign for Obama's re-election a tad earlier than the last Presidential campaign.


Posted by: janet8 | December 28, 2010 5:10 PM | Report abuse

If Michale Vick didn't have a gift of sport that the Eagles can exploit for big bucks but was a poor sap working a soup kitchen trying turn his life around than I would agree with you.

Posted by: bbface21 | December 28, 2010 5:15 PM | Report abuse

"JAH3", I think you PROBABLY meant to say:

"doesn't stink"??

The level of education is always quite evident by content and grammar.

Posted by: Maerzie | December 28, 2010 5:17 PM | Report abuse

President Obama has done more for the AMerican people in 2 years than the tea-oh-pee has done since the end of Reconstruction. It is he, and the Democratic party, that most embody the principles of the United States.

Posted by: John1263 | December 28, 2010 5:43 PM | Report abuse

Sociopaths who torture dogs don't HAVE to be hired, even if they legally CAN be. The Eagles just showed that they care about money and only money when they hired Vick.

Posted by: dolph924 | December 28, 2010 5:46 PM | Report abuse

VIck was convicted of a pretty nasty crime -- nothing on par with say running up deficts for decades with the intention of using it as a pretense for stealing retirement payments from senior citizenbs. Nothing like faking a case for a war of choice which cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

Vick went to prison, served his time, is working to right the wrongs of his past, is working his butt off, but he is black, and is getting props from President Obama so for republicons he is eternally guilty.

Scooter -- now he deserved a pardon for helping out a CIA agent......

Posted by: John1263 | December 28, 2010 5:47 PM | Report abuse

Thank you, President Obama, for being a true Americam, and for disregarding the idiots, crazies, weirdos, birthers, conservatives, racists, and fools who will discredit anything you do.

Posted by: c_attucks | December 28, 2010 6:08 PM | Report abuse

Surely, the author of this article doth jest! A barbarian being promoted into a role model status, thy name is dirt forever. It will always be associated with being someone who kills things, does drugs, and is a piece of dog poop who should have been hung and electrocuted.

Posted by: crowne2 | December 28, 2010 7:39 PM | Report abuse

A President who supports redemption and a First Lady who supports healthy eating and exercise. We're doomed! The end is near! Retreat to the bunkers!

I hope thy are enjoying this week in Hawaii and the ridiculous criticism they receives from the racist right is melting away on the beach.

Posted by: MHawke | December 28, 2010 7:41 PM | Report abuse

and these people are your "check on power" folks. be afraid, be very afraid..

Posted by: wewintheylose | December 28, 2010 7:55 PM | Report abuse

I agree with bbface21. Michael Vick deserves no praise for his "second chance" because pro football will tolerate anything off the field if the player is good enough. The only way that his redemption would be believable would be if he quit the game and went to work as a volunteer at the ASPCA. This issue is one where I seriously differ with Obama, whom I generally support.

Posted by: eskarp | December 28, 2010 8:10 PM | Report abuse

And an unknown white boy from South Dakota who made the mistake of not getting drunk from America's "Jesus approved" hard addictive drug alcohol but who got popped with a "criminal" joint instead - a second chance and a Presidential call for him?

"With liberty and justice for some"

Posted by: areyousaying | December 28, 2010 8:23 PM | Report abuse

Obama is the least American american I know of.

Posted by: markandbeth92 | December 28, 2010 8:29 PM | Report abuse

I agree with bbface21. Michael Vick deserves no praise for his "second chance" because pro football will tolerate anything off the field if the player is good enough. The only way that his redemption would be believable would be if he quit the game and went to work as a volunteer at the ASPCA. This issue is one where I seriously differ with Obama, whom I generally support.

Posted by: eskarp

=======================================

There's a reality show "Pit Bulls and Parolees" where an owner of a rescue facility hire guys released from prison help rehabilitate dogs abused from the likes of Vick and his ilk. People like that deserve praise when it comes to second chances.

With incidents like this I seriously wonder about Obama's sense of judgment.

Posted by: bbface21 | December 28, 2010 8:43 PM | Report abuse

Vick is a hip-hop thug whose "redemption" consists of a high quarterback rating, his team's winning record and and a few expressions of public remorse undoubtedly written by the Eagles' PR department. In his splendid life he has progressed from the feckless, passing around his venereal diseases under the guise of "Ron Mexico," to the feculent, killing dogs with his bare hands. One can only hope that when the inevitable Oval Office pow-wow takes place the Obamas will have the family dog locked up some place safe.

Posted by: TheEmpiricist | December 28, 2010 8:54 PM | Report abuse

It is with great bemusement as I read some of these anti-Obama posts. You folks have some real problems with a man who doesn't even know you are alive, or care. Yet you people get yourselves emotionally unhinged over anything....ANYTHING he does...and you've got another SIX YEARS to go...What the hell are you going to do Leave the Country? LOL

Posted by: october30 | December 28, 2010 8:56 PM | Report abuse

Poster John1263 is a dope.

Posted by: wearedoomed1 | December 28, 2010 8:59 PM | Report abuse

I wish that the Post would write an article about how badly America needs the New Deal and Congress should pass it in January otherwise America will turn into a third world country this year.
Football is entertainment. The wars and the economy are reality.
The tens of millions of American citizens that have lost their jobs that have been outsourced overseas shouldn't be considered comedy. The fact that Congress left on recess and isn't voting on passing the New Deal at this very moment shows that total disregard for the future of America.

Posted by: America2010 | December 28, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

"This horrible rag, the Post drives me nuts with the constant selling of the president who is constantly campaigning for himself. ENOUGH already! Isn't there anything else to write about?

Posted by: steveiev | December 28, 2010

Well, the COULD write about you. But it is a family-oriented publication, after all.

Posted by: thrh | December 28, 2010 9:23 PM | Report abuse

And this relates to Michael Vick how...?

Despite having received a remarkably lenient sentence in a deal that set aside his more serious crimes, Mr. Vick has trouble even abiding by the terms of his parole. Why would the President make him a role model?

If Mr. Obama actually cared about the rehabilitation of felons, he'd use his bully pulpit to extol the small businesses that hire ex-cons, and point out the reformed convicts who are now gainfully employed and giving back to the community.

Those, in other words, who are not spoiled, self-pitying, partying miscreants like Michael Vick.

Posted by: Itzajob | December 28, 2010 9:24 PM | Report abuse

I really enjoy how the scumbags come crawling out of the slime whenever the President's name is mentioned. Keep driving them crazy: it's a local trip!

Posted by: thrh | December 28, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Michael Vick is a filthy dirtbag of a human being.

President Obama? Maybe he should shut up and go to work instead of hanging with with the homies.

Posted by: AlongTheWatchTowers | December 28, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Yep, you write this article and it's like going outside and plugging in the bigot zapper. They come flyin' in from all directions.

Posted by: russellglee | December 28, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Okay,forgiveness is good. A second chance is good.
But rewarding thugs like this is another thing.
Hard working, honest, law-abiding citizens get the shaft while this monster makes millions.

Posted by: robtay12003 | December 28, 2010 9:29 PM | Report abuse

I hope Barry doesn't expect the endorsement of the SPCA or American Kennel Club in 2012.

Posted by: 1357111317 | December 28, 2010 9:30 PM | Report abuse

Stephen Stromberg of the Washington Post, thank you for highlighting President Obama’s praise of the Philadelphia Eagles for hiring Michael Vick and giving him a chance.


Absolutely, Mr. President. It was the thing to do. Michael Vick has followed all laws on the matter, has paid his debt to society in accordance with the Courts -- and has gone beyond that -- and continues to go beyond that with certain volunteering in promoting dog pet ownership and proper caring. Mr. Vick has demonstrated he is a model citizen. And thank you again, Mr. President for reminding us.

Posted by: CommonSense12 | December 28, 2010 9:39 PM | Report abuse

And by doing this he's supported Vick as MVP?....any racial reason for this in the face of Brady et.al? Sort of reminds me of the Harvard professor-police imbroglio..doesn't it?

Posted by: wjc1va | December 28, 2010 9:53 PM | Report abuse

As a blogger said Vick is still a disgrace because he tortured/killed dogs. Bush is a hero because he had innocent people torture, raped and killed which is what we honor in America. Scooter Libby a convicted felon is honored. Jack Abramoff did his time in jail and now looking forward to join his friends in DC. Look few remember the Contra Affair where illegal weapons were sold to the enemy by the Reagan Administratiion and even George H.W. Bush played a major part, but Bush become President. We see today a convicted man who committed Federal fraud stealing millions in Medicaid was just elected Governor of Florida and he is even allowing drugs to come in his State by the boat loads. So what many mean is if a Black man or any minority commits a crime he/she will always be noted a criminal and should never have a second chance but if your white it's ok. One exception is Michael Jackson who was railroaded out of the US even after being found innocent on ALL charges, but after death the US can make money off of him so he's ok now. That seems to happen with alot of minorties such as Josdphine Baker, Nina Simone and many many other minority celebrities who left the US because of how they were treated. Even Tina Turna wont reture because of the continued prejustice and hate. Who knows Scooter Libby could be elected President since Bush stayed in office after committing War Crimes.

Posted by: qqbDEyZW | December 28, 2010 10:09 PM | Report abuse

As expected, I cruised through here expected to read bigotry and what did I get - bigotry. America, you got to love this place, it is what it is - racist to the core, and still in denial about it too.

Posted by: isometruman1 | December 28, 2010 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, athletes deserve a second chance at tens of millions of dollars a year. O fcourse, those whose only skill is hard work at menial jobs - well screw them. We reserve second chances for super athletes , politicians, and the super rich. The rest of socoety can just go suck eggs. Obama has shown himself to be in the great tradition of the super rich or those about to be by catering to them, like Bill Clinton. The fact that Vick is racking millions from a stupid American public makes me sick. Sure , give him a second chance, but not at the gold ring. Obama, you are a disgrace to American values.

Posted by: jklfairwin | December 28, 2010 10:56 PM | Report abuse

I agree about second chances being important, but that is not just necessary and American idea. But as far as anyone who is a member of the Democratic party being equated with "values" or "principles" is a bad joke but a good laugh. The Democratic party works its butt off 24/7 trying to destroy all American values and principles.

Posted by: johntu | December 28, 2010 11:21 PM | Report abuse

This horrible rag, the Post drives me nuts with the constant selling of the president who is constantly campaigning for himself. ENOUGH already! Isn't there anything else to write about?

Posted by: steveiev
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Dude!!! He is the President of the United States, people will write about him, talk about him, show him, follow him, they do this to every President. As President what do you want him to do disappear? No matter what this President does even when it is similar to what all the other Presidents have done you people start whining, oh it's a photo op, Oh he's so full of himself, oh he isn't sincere. How the heck would you know what this President is about when you haters don't know a thing about him and don't want to know. OMG!!!!

Posted by: catmomtx | December 28, 2010 11:58 PM | Report abuse

Obama hard working? And how many vacations has he been on?
Posted by: janet8 | December 28, 2010 5:10 PM |

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Not as many as George Bush.

Posted by: catmomtx | December 29, 2010 12:00 AM | Report abuse

Here goes WaPo again - Obama once again shows his stupidity, intellectual laziness, and his Chicago community-activist mentality, and the WaPo Hazmat team quickly rides in to spin the whole episode as some kind of planned moral lesson.

Face it - your boy Obama has no clue about being the leader of the United States.

Posted by: pgr88 | December 29, 2010 12:28 AM | Report abuse

Forget Michael Vick. The poll of most admired men has Obama at the top but George W. Bush is number 2. Number 2!!! Vick mistreated dogs and served time. Bush TORTURED human beings and was not even indicted. Pretty sad. Pretty despicable.

Posted by: nyrunner101 | December 29, 2010 12:41 AM | Report abuse

You people kill me...You yell and scream to the rest of the world how much a Christian country is yet Obama give praise to Vick's employer, not Vick or Vick's actions, for showing forgiveness and you people are upset at Obama for doing a Christian thing....Jesus tells Christians, including myself, that hate and love cannot occupy the same place (i.e., your heart) yet so many of you fools believe in doing just that...love America, hate Obama, love animals, hate Vick...Yeah you are showing your true Christian colors. Thank you Mr. President, forgiveness something we should practice...even those who disagree with you.

Posted by: PeaceAmerica | December 29, 2010 2:02 AM | Report abuse

If I were in charge of the task of glorifying Hahvahd , I certainly would shy away of any knowledge of giving a Diploma to the likes of Osama bin Obama . How did he ever pass the exams ? He certainly doesn't learn from his mistakes. Whey the Hell get involved with the Vick case ? Like the Professor Gates entanglement, he jumps in where Angels fear to tread . ( Certainly Angels don't need to run to defend Saints ) The Frontiers of worthwhile and Presidential decisions scream for his attention. Like the War, Gitmo, and especially Unemployment but what does he do , holler about Republican Obstructionism, cases like Vicks dog killing episodes, and whether Gates was justified in his actions. He sits by while the Black Panthers spit upon the Constitution and drive Caucasians away from the voting places with clubs. He turns his back on tapes of corruption by ACORN , and let's them skate like the Black Panthers did. I'm certainly no Einstein , but I really think Obama thought the Good Lord said , " Trains " instead of brains, and he ran like Hell the other way. But what does it say about the misinformed who voted for him. The 98% of the " Brothuhs and Sistahs " I can understand, after all we know only Caucasians can be Racists . But what about the Caucasaian College Women who seem to vote with their hormones. " Oh he's so articulate, and so Handsome " they said. Yeah , he can pronounce the word " Ask " and not call it AXE . And if you consider a Yellow Cab coming down 5th Ave in N.Y. with all the doors wide open as being handsome, then Obama belongs in Hollywood instead of Washington.

Posted by: puck-101 | December 29, 2010 2:52 AM | Report abuse

Vick murdered and tortured dogs and for him the president of the u.s. to support him is horrific.

And I thought Barack Obama liked dogs! Shame on him!

Posted by: Rubiconski | December 29, 2010 3:06 AM | Report abuse

The president who campaigned for a more “open government” and “full disclosure” will not unseal his medical records, his school records, or his passport records. He will not release his Harvard records, his Columbia College records, or his Occidental College records—he will not even release his Columbia College thesis. All his legislative records from the Illinois State Senate are missing and he claims his scheduling records during those State Senate years are lost as well. In addition, no one can find his school records for the elite K-12 college prep school, Punahou School, he attended in Hawaii.

Posted by: fury60 | December 29, 2010 3:08 AM | Report abuse

" ... spent some time in prison for running a dog-fighting ring at one of his homes in Virginia"

-------------------

Are you kidding me? He brutally tortured and killed dogs and puppies by hanging them, drowning them, and using them as bait for the older dogs. Not to mention slamming them against the ground until they were dead.

Vick should have all his teeth pulled out ... just like he did to some of his dogs.

The man is scum ... always was and always will be.

Posted by: playfair109 | December 29, 2010 3:45 AM | Report abuse

Obama never campaigned or said a word to help the Democratic candidate for mayor of NYC, but he chimes in on this issue. I guess it never occurred to him that millions of people, including many Democrats, find Vick to be abhorrent. What does Obama possibly have to gain by saying anything about this?

Posted by: nyc98765 | December 29, 2010 3:56 AM | Report abuse

This is not a second change for Vick, he has had hundreds, perhaps thousands of chances to stop the killing and torture.

He tortured and killed helpless dogs. He used puppies as pit bull fighting bait. He mutilated animals that refused to fight by electrocuting, burning alive, drowning, strangling, etc. He slaughtered these helpless creatures with his bare hands, for fun. He did not torture and kill just one dog. He did it to hundreds, perhaps thousands of helpless, innocent dogs. The man is a monster and the president is a monster to praise him.

Posted by: hunter340 | December 29, 2010 4:06 AM | Report abuse

The liberals have been telling us that contemporary racists speak in code. There may be some truth to that assertion when you hear our president say convicts deserve a second chance or that police "acted stupidly." Vick's and Skippy Gates' actions elicit no sympathy unless you're racially slanted.

Was Eric Holder right? Is the President himself too cowardly to say what he thinks about race in America?

Posted by: elgropo1 | December 29, 2010 4:44 AM | Report abuse

Obama and Michael Vick - American Values

Does not compute!!!!!1

Posted by: asmith1 | December 29, 2010 5:46 AM | Report abuse


Time will tell. This article is premature.

Methinks you should not hold up a living person as a role model for young people. They too often disappoint....

Posted by: hipshot | December 29, 2010 6:03 AM | Report abuse

I don't believe that sucking the brains out of a living fetus is in line with American values, eh community organizer.

Posted by: WorkOrStarve | December 29, 2010 6:23 AM | Report abuse

The sentencing judge did not believe Vick when he professed his great apology for his evil, really evil deeds. Vick not only killed dogs himself, but gambled on the outcome of the contests. Reminds one of Pete Rose's problem as well. Vick flipped off his fans. He lived like a king with multiple homes.

His hiring was for his playing ability not an act of charity. With this team, charity begins at home.

Obama had so many people that he could have praised, but chose MIchael Vick. That says more about Obama than it does about Vick.

Posted by: LETFREEDOMRING2 | December 29, 2010 6:25 AM | Report abuse

Judge not lest ye be judged! Nuf said.

-peace

Posted by: JDYoung | December 29, 2010 6:46 AM | Report abuse

" And, especially when it comes to ex-convicts -- or some of the currently incarcerated who should be contenders for executive pardon -- Americans could be yet more forgiving, as Ezra Klein points out. I'm glad the president said so."

Gee, I came in here all ready to peg Stromberg for what, in the print version, is a totally unbalanced piece -- as if it were even proper to compare released criminals trying to find a rent-paying job directly to failed small-business owners trying to recoup through bankruptcy. The differences are so profound as to render any such attempt at comparison nearly futile.

BUT, what I discover instead is that the print editors gutted the paragraph above, leaving only the last sentence.

Why they have a bias against ex-cons needing to find work, I'm not sure. But this egregious hack job makes it pretty obvious. Stromberg, they savaged the best part, the most important part. What's up with that? Shameless.

Posted by: laboo | December 29, 2010 6:57 AM | Report abuse

Obama was born in Hawaii???

According to Protection of Classified Information by Congress: Practices and Proposals at www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/RS20748.pdf
Members of Congress (as with the President and Vice President, Justices of the Supreme Court, or other federal court judges) have never been required to hold security clearances.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/index.html

But still, can Barack Obama fills out SF 86 Questionnaire for National
Security Positions at http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF86.pdff?
http://www.opm.gov/forms/html/sf.asp
For example, #3 require an original birth ceritifcate, not a copy.
and #9
#5 other names use (In Indonesia?)
#10, dual citizenship (kenya?)
#18, list (12) half-brother, he has what, how many in Kenya?
#19 and #20, many Kenyan contacts
#29, a,b,c,,,, the ACLU, Amnesty, Himan Rights Watch, CCR, etc.

Posted by: Rockvillers | December 29, 2010 7:19 AM | Report abuse

There are many Americans who believe in the Biblical and ethical of a second chance for someone who has paid for a misdeed. There are many who scream for vengeance. As I note from the previous comment there are those who can spell and those who can't, those who want facts and those who need to believe false trash that is circulated. Those who expressed charity and love made me feel good this Christmas season.

Posted by: withersb | December 29, 2010 7:25 AM | Report abuse

America is the land of opportunity, yes -- but to say that we're a land that's known for our kindness to ex-felons is a bit of a stretch.

Obama's sympathy for ex-felons who only show remorse when it's financially necessary is bad enough, but he also proved to be a liar in this case. When pressed about the conversation about Michael Vick, the White House is now saying that Obama just wanted to know about Jeff Lurie's efforts to install solar panels and wind turbines at the stadium. In the immortal words of Bill Cosby, riiiiiight.

So now we're left with a liar who admires a dog killer. Is this *really* what makes America great????

Posted by: diehardlib | December 29, 2010 7:25 AM | Report abuse

Since sports figures are looked up to as heroes, seems like the public is willing to overlook anything they do. Read this morning that the Eagles lost and while I feel bad for the rest of the team, it made me happy that this so-called "hero" (Vick) fell apart when the going got tough.

Many who are in prison did not commit nearly as heinous a crime as did Vick. They are doing hard time - and have little chance for even a job washing dishes when they get out.

Anyone who will torture and kill animals will do the same to a human if he thinks he can get away with it. The only time I want to see Vick is when he is at the bottom of a huge pile of defensive linemen suffering pain like he inflicted on the dogs.

Posted by: Utahreb | December 29, 2010 7:27 AM | Report abuse

One of the enduring myths about Obama is that "he came from nothing" From his early days in Hawaii he was pampered, attending one of this country's most elite private schools: Punaho, finaced by his banker grandmother. He from then on had every opportunity given to him, and has refused to release any information which would show whether further schooling at Columbia or Harvard was justified by ability. Typical of such a spoiled person, he now feels he knows what is best for others. Classic case of overcompensation for insecurity. We got a big fat dud, and the Wapo will not make any different.

Posted by: 0622 | December 29, 2010 7:39 AM | Report abuse

It saddens me when I read some of these negative comments. What Mr. Vick did was wrong, he was punished for his crimes. Is this man to be punished for the rest of his life? The President was correct with his assessment! And hearing all these people rant about America as a Christian nation??? Well all the negative comments doesn't shine a positive light on Christianity!

Posted by: noneckmd | December 29, 2010 7:44 AM | Report abuse

Obama is not a "true American." You would not know one if you saw him.

It was fun watching Vick lose last night - to a rookie qb who was a wide receiver!! He out played Vick by miles. Vick should have been banned from the NFL for life.

I understand Obama has not called the family of the border agent who was brutally murdered last week. THAT is what a "true American" would do. A "true American" would close the border - not let Americans be murdered by Mexican cartels. Shame on Obama.

Posted by: annnort | December 29, 2010 8:13 AM | Report abuse

Sorry, but there's no amount of repackaging that will ever allow me to forget what Michael Vick did in cold blood and over several years -- even if, as Chris Collingsworth did repeatedly last night, the sports media start calling him "Mike Vick". Nor do I forget Ray Lewis' involvement in murder every time the Ravens play. For our so-called President to single out Vick for praise of someone worthy of a second chance is pandering, pure and simple.

Posted by: RedderThanEver | December 29, 2010 8:15 AM | Report abuse

This was an obviously political gesture by a President who has lost much of the support he garnered when he won the 2008 election. So someone thought it'd be a great idea to applaud the Eagles for having Vick on their team. That Vick's reformation doesn't truly stand up under strict scrutiny, (Griping about his role on the team in the beginning, pouting during a benching, etc.) it simply makes the President look as clueless as his early stumble during the Henry Louis Gates flap.

Posted by: Puller58 | December 29, 2010 8:21 AM | Report abuse

Mr. Stromberg, I will agree with you if you can show me where Michael Vick's "issues" were dealt with while he was incarcerated. Only a dark soul takes pleasure in violence. At what point did Mr. Vick's heart change? There are crimes and there are crimes. We release these men who have killed, raped and assaulted people without addressing the rage that exists inside of them. I don't worry about the guy who cheats on his taxes or steals something from a store. I worry about the guys who cheer as they watch two living creatures rip each other to shreds.

Posted by: RafikiRuby | December 29, 2010 8:25 AM | Report abuse

Lord this RAG has become a parody of itself. What an embarrassment.

Posted by: ChangeWhat | December 29, 2010 8:38 AM | Report abuse

By the comments read, I must say I am more inspired to become a Canadian than ever before. American values hah! It depends on which way the wind is blowing and the particular prejudice of the day. Look if you hate the president then say so, don't invent reasons for it. Also, there apparently is no redemption for certain people, for dubious reasons of course.

Posted by: UnknownHenson | December 29, 2010 8:50 AM | Report abuse

Obama is a racist....so is Holder

As to Vick....

...Obama just showed that Black solidarity is more important than Black character

But what would you expect from an Affirmative Action Election Hire....

When the New Black Panthers case costs Holder his job and one finds that Obama was involved..

.....the vick-a-ninny will matter less

Posted by: georgedixon1 | December 29, 2010 8:59 AM | Report abuse

Michael Vick was convicted of running a INTERSTATE dog fighting ring. INTERSTATE, makes it a Federal Felony Offense. That is why he served time and is a convicted felon.

Posted by: bigmac1810 | December 29, 2010 9:00 AM | Report abuse

It is pathetic that our President feels the need to opine that a man whose personal value system allowed him to kill dogs for fun and profit should be allowed a second chance.

Vick paid his dues, it is good that he has made changes, but we have bigger things that our President should be focused on.

My guess is that history will show Obama as a man bored with the actual work of running a gov't and directing two wars and obsessed with race and social issues.

Sad. Even worse is the WP and other brown nosing media cheering this on.

Is it nice, sure. But we have bigger issues to be focused on and Michael Vick's problems were of his own creation. How about we start helping homeless teens or hungry elders?

Posted by: asdf9876 | December 29, 2010 9:02 AM | Report abuse

By the comments read, I must say I am more inspired to become a Canadian than ever before. American values hah! It depends on which way the wind is blowing and the particular prejudice of the day. Look if you hate the president then say so, don't invent reasons for it. Also, there apparently is no redemption for certain people, for dubious reasons of course.

Posted by: UnknownHenson

=====================================

Race Card= BIG YAWN

As I wrote earlier, the bigger point is the president using Michale Vick as an praiseworthy example of redemption he is at best misguided.

If he didn't have a gift of sport that the Eagles can exploit but was a typical ex-con working a soup kitchen trying to turn his life around than Stromberg's point would be valid.

Posted by: bbface21 | December 29, 2010 9:05 AM | Report abuse

Once again, being a great jock trumps being humane. I cannot cheer for a cruel man, no matter how well he plays ball.

Posted by: mullingitover | December 29, 2010 9:07 AM | Report abuse

Michael Vick killed creatures that were in his protective care without a second thought. I differ with the President on this one. It may be an American value to forgive, but, perhaps, not to forget. How well he throws a football has nothing to do with the state of his soul. He has not demonstrated the humility and dedication that I would need to even consider him redeemed.

Posted by: christine7 | December 29, 2010 9:12 AM | Report abuse

Michael Vick killed creatures that were in his protective care without a second thought. I differ with the President on this one. It may be an American value to forgive, but, perhaps, not to forget. How well he throws a football has nothing to do with the state of his soul. He has not demonstrated the humility and dedication that I would need to even consider him redeemed.

Posted by: christine7 | December 29, 2010 9:13 AM | Report abuse

Didn't mention race did I, the President made a general comment about ex-cons getting a second chance. The mere fact that you mentioned the race card bbface means that you've obviously got it on the brain. Again if you hate the President and Mike Vick for whatever reason than say so. Don't be a coward!

Posted by: UnknownHenson | December 29, 2010 9:15 AM | Report abuse

I'm with the people who remind us, above, that Vick tortured, mutilated and killed powerless animals -- not just the dogs who fought for him, but the helpless animals who were thrown to them to hone their ferocity. What real remorse has he shown for this? Has he dedicated his NFL earnings to the rescue of abused creatures? To the breakup of other dogfighting rings? Is he working with convicts (yes, those people who aren't sports superstars and just got busted with a joint or for some other victimless crime?). Spare me the "second chance" speeches with the humming chorus of "America" in the background. Vick is an overpaid thug employed in an overhyped sport, watched, paid for and argued over for hours by millions of people who should be getting off their cans and doing something -- perhaps running with their own dogs.

Posted by: Hyperlocal | December 29, 2010 9:16 AM | Report abuse

Hooray for Michael Vick and Obama! He deserves a second chance. All of us kill animals, ether through eating meat, eating fish or taking their territory for homes so get off your high horse. Personally, I find dogs to be dirty and dumb animals, genetically bred to be almost useless. A football player has more intelligence than a dog, but not much more. Pb in DC.

Posted by: PB-in-DC | December 29, 2010 9:23 AM | Report abuse

steveiev

You're like the man who advertised for his runaway wife of 23 years that she was slothful, a spendthrift, and did not take care of his property.

Leaving us to wonder why he wanted her back, and why you bother reading WAPO - I don't doubt for a minute that like all the freepers, you don't have a forgiving bone in your body. I'm sure you speak for your tiny circle.

But you don't speak for most Americans.

Thank God.

Posted by: dutchess2 | December 29, 2010 9:26 AM | Report abuse

Professor Gates - stupid police, New Black Panthers - voter intimidation okay, Michael Vick - animal torturer, I guess as long as your black, President Obama will let you do just about anything. This president was supposed to breach the divide, instead he is obviously has his favorite people just like the poor bums before him, it keeps getting clearer and clearer.

Posted by: Jack83 | December 29, 2010 9:31 AM | Report abuse

Professor Gates - stupid police, New Black Panthers - voter intimidation okay, Michael Vick - animal torturer, I guess as long as your black, President Obama will let you do just about anything. This president was supposed to breach the divide, instead he is obviously has his favorite people just like the poor bums before him, it keeps getting clearer and clearer.

Posted by: Jack83 | December 29, 2010 9:31 AM | Report abuse

Bloods

Posted by: schmidt1 | December 29, 2010 9:32 AM | Report abuse

Yes, Vick has paid his dues - in accordance with our laws. But nothing he's done since, or will do in the future, will bring back the animals he helped to kill.

I don't believe this guy has any remorse for what he did. He's only sorry he got caught. Pretty much like Tiger Woods.

The President would do well to keep his nose out of this stuff.

Posted by: wearedoomed1 | December 29, 2010 9:35 AM | Report abuse

Vick = bad

Palin shooting an innocent moose in the face on Tv = Patriot

Posted by: marques357 | December 29, 2010 9:38 AM | Report abuse

I find myself chortling at some of the anti-Obama gobsmacking that goes on here. One toad used the old Bill Ayers--Reverend Wright gig always guaranteed like a comic's tool to get the appropriate reaction. Then there is this "2012 can't come soon enough" gag which fundamentally assumes everyone feels the same as the turd who wrote that one.

Look. The new CNN/ORC Poll has Obama surging and Palin fading. That is really all you need to know. Obama has a floor of about 42% That is about where the ceiling is for the GOP. In polling, about 40% of the American people are willing to label themselves conservative. The truth is that Obama's floor is higher than the conservative GOP ceiling.

So my question for the Obama haters is this: Are you really all that sure you can't wait for 2012?

Posted by: jaxas70 | December 29, 2010 9:59 AM | Report abuse

While not especially a Vick fan, I think his punishment did not match the "crime". There are a great many things in this world worse than dog fighting....and many of them are legal. Why do we place such a high value on dogs and not on rabbits for example? In many places around the world you can kill and eat a dog legally for Pete's sake and for all I know it might be legal in Virginia. His crime was a misdemeanor at most.

Posted by: hit4cycle | December 29, 2010 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Yes, I also beleive in giving a person a second chance, specially if he complied with requirements of the law.

However, a person who promotes and enjoys dog fights and afterwards also drowns and hangs dogs has a serious character flaw. It does not speak well of the basic nature of the man.

Therefore, I consider that Mr. Obama should not have been so motivated to praise Mr. Vick. Also, I feel sorry for the owner of a Nisan dealership in New Jersey who recently used the image of Mr. Vick to promote his business.

What I ask people is if Mr. Vick is the person who we should project to our children as a valuable citizen. He may be a very good athlete but a lowly human being not worthy of any praise outside the football field.

Posted by: lavista | December 29, 2010 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Yes, I also beleive in giving a person a second chance, specially if he complied with requirements of the law.

However, a person who promotes and enjoys dog fights and afterwards also drowns and hangs dogs has a serious character flaw. It does not speak well of the basic nature of the man.

Therefore, I consider that Mr. Obama should not have been so motivated to praise Mr. Vick. Also, I feel sorry for the owner of a Nisan dealership in New Jersey who recently used the image of Mr. Vick to promote his business.

What I ask people is if Mr. Vick is the person who we should project to our children as a valuable citizen. He may be a very good athlete but a lowly human being not worthy of any praise outside the football field.

Posted by: lavista | December 29, 2010 10:01 AM | Report abuse

Once again the President steps in --it. Sane and free thinking individuals seem to agree that this off the cuff comment our leader extols upon us is truly not true. The Philadelphia Eagles could care less if he a felon, that's not their business; winning football games is their goal. Once again Obama proves there's more different about himself than his unusual name,his values.

Posted by: whineridentifier | December 29, 2010 10:02 AM | Report abuse

It downright dishonest to pretend that Vick is just another "second chance."

Torturers do not deserve a second chance. They are sociopaths who cannot be rehabilitated.

And to see Obama join in the Vick buttlicking was thoroughly disgusting.

Posted by: solsticebelle | December 29, 2010 10:02 AM | Report abuse

Yes, I also believe in giving a person a second chance, specially if he complied with the requirements of the law.

However, a person who promotes and enjoys dog fights and afterwards also drowns and hangs dogs has a serious character flaw. It does not speak well of the basic nature of the man.

Therefore, I consider that Mr. Obama should NOT been so enthusiastic when he referred to Mr. Vick. I beleived that Mr. Obama goofed Also, I feel sorry for the owner of a Nisan dealership in New Jersey who recently used the image of Mr. Vick to promote his business.

What I ask the author and the readers is if Mr. Vick is the person who we should project to our children as a valuable citizen. He may be a very good athlete but a lowly human being not worthy of any praise outside the football field.

Posted by: lavista | December 29, 2010 10:06 AM | Report abuse

I DO NOT ACCEPT MICHEAL VICKS REMORSE AS SINCERE

the man is a psychopath - serial killers kill animals for pleasure when they are children and continue this as adults by killing people

so even if Vick doesn't kill a person - so what - he is still exhibited psycopathic behaviour and for this he gets his job and glory back

American Values - kill dogs for pleasure, steal pets for training animals to be killed by dogs being trained to kill

ELECTROCUTE, HANG, STRANGLE, HOLD BY FEET WHILE BASHING HEADS AGAINST STEEL POSTS when the animal doesn't perform enough

Sadists watch these things, saidsts get pleasure from these things

Give cons second chances yes, but to glorify this as a good thing is sick

sick, sick, sick

football - never and advertisers who advertise for the Eagle games should be ashamed of themsevels

anyone who cheers for Vick should be ashamed of themsevles

from a Christian, white woman who voted for Obama and will vote for Obama again

I just happend to think that dogs are God's children too and to kill them is WRONG, AS WRONG AS KILLING A PERSON

he did the time now he should go clean out kennels - thats where he belongs EXCEPT HE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH EVEN FOR THAT

FINAL WORD

Posted by: lndlouis | December 29, 2010 10:21 AM | Report abuse

Vick is as undeserving of forgiveness as Obama is undeserving of the Nobel Peace Prize.

Posted by: Paaa | December 29, 2010 10:25 AM | Report abuse

It must be that monstrous big tax break that Obama extended on into infinity that has the media oh, so supportive all of a sudden, of him. The media, media, media is what is keeping Obama's and Vick's heads above water.

Real American values would have Vick writhing in Hell to this very minute, not playing football to the tune of millions of dollars all with that monstrous tax break thrown in that Obama gave him.

Why Vick, I wonder? Why this obscenely abusive cretin of a human being? Obama's not God yet, and now I hope and pray he gets voted out of office in 2012.

Between his pandering to the Republican's in general and giving them their tax kick-back and pandering to mass torturer and murderer Michael Vick, Obama isn't on my radar anymore.

Posted by: mizkitteh | December 29, 2010 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Vic tortured dog for years and the president of the United States goes out of his way to congratulate the Eagles owner for hiring him? Disgusting. I've been a strong supporter of Obama, but I will never feel the same about him because of this. I'm glad Vic has a good-paying job only because if he had no money he probably would go back to the hills somewhere and resume dog fighting. He deserves a pat on the back about as much as a child molester does. People who hurt children and animals are scum. And they probably never really change.

Posted by: kathok | December 29, 2010 10:29 AM | Report abuse

Yes, so glad Vick is back making millions of dollars after torturing, killing and otherwise brutalizing defenseless animals.
Obama acted "stupidly" by choosing Vick as a poster boy for "second chances".

Don't know why but he continues to amaze me with his ineptness in all things.

Posted by: spamsux1 | December 29, 2010 10:35 AM | Report abuse

"Nothing like faking a case for a war of choice which cost hundreds of thousands of lives."
-----------------------------------
I'm glad to see some people have perspective. And the perpetrators of that crime will not spend a day behind bars.

Posted by: mypitts2 | December 29, 2010 10:55 AM | Report abuse

This is a disgraceful article. Go crawl under a rock, yo WaPo liberal loser.

Posted by: redhotCAPSaicin | December 29, 2010 11:06 AM | Report abuse

So the President of the United States takes time out to praise a guy who for SIX YEARS killed and tortured animals.. well isn't that special??? Look Vick wasn't some poor guy who sold drugs or stole some stuff to pay rent and feed his family and now wants to go straight. He was a multi- MILLIONARE who loved inflicting pain on dogs so much he put it all at risk to do it. He didn't make a mistake he made a LIFE STYLE CHOICE!!! Now Obama and this dopey writer wants us all to celebrate the fact this motally bankrupt person is now a multi-millionare again??? Sorry Vick was and is a THUG!!! The fact that a person like that is rich again is nothing to celebrate.

Posted by: sovine08 | December 29, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Obama and Michael Vick: the president's American values

10 TO 7

Posted by: John_Chas_Webb | December 29, 2010 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Obama and Michael Vick: the president's American values.........

SPELL CHECKER STILL DOES NOT RECOGNIZE oBAMA .

VALUES 10 TO 7 IN THE FINAL QUARTER OF AMERICA 1.0

THEN ON TO AMERICA 2.0

Posted by: John_Chas_Webb | December 29, 2010 11:23 AM | Report abuse

Obama and Michael Vick: the president's American values.........

SPELL CHECKER STILL DOES NOT RECOGNIZE oBAMA .

VALUES 10 TO 7 IN THE FINAL QUARTER OF AMERICA 1.0

THEN ON TO AMERICA 2.0 sUPER.bELL liberty !

Posted by: John_Chas_Webb | December 29, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

As a half-black man in America Obama obviously enjoys a good dog fight just as much as Mike Vick.

Posted by: oldno7 | December 28, 2010 4:51 PM
////////////////////////////////////////
Lets stop kidding ourselves. The comment that the President is "half-black" says it all. The fact that they will not accept him is due to his race. That is it; no need to look any further. He will never be able to please the GOP as he will never be able to change his race to white or even half white. Racism in America at its best.

Posted by: pcca | December 29, 2010 11:25 AM | Report abuse

Traditional Christian Americans values:
Repent your sins, do your time, get a job and get on with your life as a productive member of society. If you do these things, then the public will not forget but they will certainly forgive ... so long as you are a white self-proclaimed Christian.

For anyone else, you're a pariah for life.

Posted by: labman57 | December 29, 2010 11:32 AM | Report abuse

I wonder how many who take the writer to task for supporting Pres.Obama's praise for The Eagles' President's willingness to give Michael Vick, and by extension convicts in general, a second chance have ever been in need of forgiveness themselves. It seems that mercy has gone out of style in a large segment of our population and that is so sad. I mean Jesus forgave the criminals who died beside him! Who are we to be judge and jury of another's motives. What do we lose by extending love and forgiveness to another? If we say that we are Christians why then do we not act that way and practice the Greatest Commandment which is to love our neighbor? There is no asterisk after that commandment, that say we don't have to love our brother's and sisters in prison. There are no exceptions!
The hatred as shown in many of these replies is frightening to me and for the god of our country.

Posted by: tribebuilder | December 29, 2010 11:47 AM | Report abuse

The problem for many who do not cheer Mr. Vick at this time is not an unwillingness to forgive.

The problem for many is that the forgiveness is being demanded far too soon. Trust is not rebuilt overnight, and it is not instantly regained just because someone claims to have quickly turned their character around. It takes a long time to rebuild trust once it's been deeply broken. This man has been a murdering thug, not a thief or a con man - his crimes were unconscionable.

Yes, he served his time. But the penalty for crimes against animals, progressive as they are, are comparatively light verses the gravity of the crimes. Mr. Vick may be out and finished with his sentence, but it was never commiserate with his crime and that makes the necessary trust rebuilding time even longer.

For those who keep demanding that everyone forgive and trust Mr. Vick right now, it simply doesn't work that way in the human heart and psyche. I suspect that those who are demanding that everyone must forgive Mr. Vick right now would have a very hard time themselves if the public demanded of them a forgiveness time table regarding a criminal who was involved in the murder of their loved one.

Trust and forgiveness will come when Mr. Vick proves worthy of it.

Posted by: jdVA | December 29, 2010 11:50 AM | Report abuse

Michael Vick got a second chance. The dogs he tortured, brutalized and killed? I'll bet they would have loved to have the chance to run and play again, too!

Posted by: cbyebyefraser | December 29, 2010 12:43 PM | Report abuse

I agree with all who say's Obama **** ** **** **** ** ****** and **** ** ***** when actually he's is *** * ***** ******

that is my opinion and I'll stand behind it

as for a 2nd chance NOT in 2012 Mr. President Not even in 2011

Posted by: BillSaidIt | December 29, 2010 6:21 PM | Report abuse

Yes, Barack Obama is a real American. And like most Americans, he's morally vapid, in love with celebrity, agog over star athletes, and doesn't really give a damn what kind of mindblowing cruelty humans inflict on animals.

All of the foregoing he shares with the average American.

Posted by: lilifreak | December 29, 2010 7:33 PM | Report abuse

As for "even playing field" --

Can someone please give me the contact number for the White House's personal felon hiring program? I am sure, since the President believes so strongly in hiring felons, he must have a special office at the White House devoted to screening and hiring them onto his staff. After all, if he doesn't, it's hypocritical, isn't it?

I'd like to send that number to some people whose crimes are, in my book, equivalent to Vick's, but who have served their time. You know, people who have violently victimized the helpless. Child rapists. Serial wife beaters. Elder abusers. Etcetera.

Posted by: lilifreak | December 29, 2010 7:37 PM | Report abuse

jaxas70 --

Yes. I'm really sure.

Posted by: RedderThanEver | December 29, 2010 9:55 PM | Report abuse

I agree with the poster that likened Michael Vick to a serial killer. Serial killers historically have started their killing and abuse on animals. He is not a sane person, no one in their right mind would treat any living creature in the way that he has. All hail him a hero now, now that he wins numerous football games. He is pure evil, and that is not something that can be rehabilitated. Shame on the NFL and on President Obama for acting like he is a rehabilitated man and we should honor his efforts. He is dirt.

Posted by: michellecleek | December 30, 2010 11:46 PM | Report abuse

I agree with the poster that likened Michael Vick to a serial killer. Serial killers historically have started their killing and abuse on animals. He is not a sane person, no one in their right mind would treat any living creature in the way that he has. All hail him a hero now, now that he wins numerous football games. He is pure evil, and that is not something that can be rehabilitated. Shame on the NFL and on President Obama for acting like he is a rehabilitated man and we should honor his efforts. He is dirt.

Posted by: michellecleek | December 30, 2010 11:47 PM | Report abuse

So what has Vick done to help the folks that have worked to rescue the dogs he abused?? Has the Pres. thanked these folks for taking on this task- Best Friends etc. While Vick is celebrating his success and being forgiven by B.O. the dogs he abused sit in corners afraid to interact and wonder what they did to deserve such barbaric treatment from Vick. What a role model we have in our professional athletes (and politicians.)
Such is the nature of man I suppose (barbaric and self centered). We are a long way from being and intelligent and civilized being.

Posted by: bc7145 | December 31, 2010 1:09 PM | Report abuse

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