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In the Privacy of the Booth, No to Illegal Immigrants

The good people of Herndon have spoken, and in the privacy of the voting booth, they appeared to send a clear message: They do not want their town to cater to illegal immigrants. They do not want to make life easier for those who have come here to work. They do not want their tax dollars being spent to condone the illegal hiring of illegal workers.

Tuesday's town council election was decisive: Mayor Michael O'Reilly and the council members who supported the establishment of a day laborer center where immigrant workers could gather and be hired for house and lawn work were defeated. The one Hispanic candidate in the race also went down. (Herndon's population is now about a quarter Hispanic, but many of those residents cannot vote.)

When I visited recently with Herndon residents who had banded together to make the case for finding ways to get along with the town's growing population of newly arrived immigrants, most of them Latino, these longtime town residents argued that this election would be the bellwether, that we would learn this week what Herndon's true character is. Obviously, these residents expected and hoped that the result of the vote would be the opposite of what has now happened.

This is immediately being portrayed as a backlash to the town's decision to pay tax money to set up the center and get the immigrant workers off the parking lot of the 7-Eleven on Elden Street and away from their hangouts along neighboring streets. And I suppose it can only be seen as a reaction to the controversy that became a national story, thanks to Herndon's proximity to the media and advocacy center of Washington, and to the decision by Republican gubernatorial candidate Jerry Kilgore to make Herndon's confrontation with immigration into a big issue in his losing campaign last year.

But backlash isn't quite the right idea here. Remember that Kilgore lost, not only statewide, but especially in northern Virginia and especially in the areas of Fairfax and Loudoun counties around Herndon. And remember all the polling and armchair analysis after that election (and some subsequent special legislative elections) in which both parties saw a considerable trend toward the Democrats.

But it's also important to note that neither the Dems nor the Repos are of one accord internally about how to deal with illegal immigration.

After spending a day in Herndon talking to people on all sides of this question, I came away persuaded that the town that became a national symbol of our inconsistencies and contradictions over immigration is itself conflicted and confused. Why would folks in Herndon be any different from the rest of us on these issues?

The bottom line is that most folks wanted the ugly and threatening scene at the 7-Eleven to be taken care of. And most folks were offended by the idea that their tax money would be spent on behalf of people who broke the law to come here and continued to break the law by working illegally. Americans cherish fairness, and somehow it doesn't seem fair to grant privileges of citizenship to people who took it upon themselves to jump past those who are lawfully waiting in line to get into this country.

That said, we all know that the immigration system is broken, that the border is a joke, and that many, many Americans speak with forked tongue on these matters: We don't like illegal immigrants, but we behave in ways that depend on illegal immigrants' work. We insist on shopping at prices that can only be sustained by using illegal labor. We hire workers with a wink and an averted eye about how they got here and whether they're legal.

We're conflicted, and so our votes conflict with one another. We are offended when Jerry Kilgore sounds like he's running against immigrants, but we're willing to throw the bums out of town government when they appear to be giving those same immigrants a far bigger helping of assistance than we believe our own ancestors got when they arrived on these shores.

This is still a country where we have tremendous admiration for the spunk and striving of new arrivals. We know that they are the scientists and engineers and inventors and entrepreneurs who keep America at the top of the heap. Yet we want to have a sense that everyone's playing by the same rules, and that there are some basic rules.

We don't quite live in that world right now, and as long as our political leaders continue to pretend that we do even as the rest of us know that's not true, we will continue to see conflicting votes and contradictory behavior by voters.

Deep down, we know that any fixes must come from a more honest federal government. But since that level of government has abdicated its responsibilities, we're having to fight this out in inappropriate venues, like local and state government. Thus this vote in Herndon.

By Marc Fisher |  May 2, 2006; 10:50 PM ET
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Comments

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From the article:
"We know that they are the scientists and engineers and inventors and entrepreneurs who keep America at the top of the heap."

This is all well and good; however, we aren't getting the best and brightest from other countries. We are getting the destitute and desperate that drive down income levels by accepting meager wages from wretched companies that hire them.

Posted by: James | May 3, 2006 6:37 AM


I see Fischer can no longer demagogue on this issue, now he must at least bitterly acknowledge that people who believe in law and order are not against immigrants. Must be hard for his mushy headed sentiments. to be reconciled with reality. Too bad, he hasn't shown this level of balance in his previous columns. The whole lib media, has reached a new low in the immigration coverage. I didn't think it was possible but they've gone and done it.

"Remember America, you'd be nothing without these illegals getting you rich, you jerks!"

xxoo

--The liberal Media

Posted by: Baltimore, MD | May 3, 2006 6:56 AM

Contrary to the national media, nonHispanic Americans are clear about this issue. Poll after poll has shown the majority do not support illegal immigration or the businesses that hire them in order to depress wages. The problem, as always, is that politicians are more hungry for corporate dollars to fund their reelection campaigns than they are to represent the citizens of this country. America is truly America, Inc., at this point, or the laws would have been enforced long ago.

Posted by: Sandra | May 3, 2006 7:05 AM

At least you added the disclaimer that Democrats are not all of one mind on this issue. Kaine's win and the Democrat "trending" of Northern Virgina (in effect for quite some time in Arlington and Alexandria) are a result of many issues. I for one am a life-long Democrat who was disgusted by Kaine's campaign spokeswoman stating (in response to the Herndon issue) that illegal immigration wasn't their business or concern, yet I voted for Kaine. This attitude of turning a blind eye to mass violation of the law angers me, and I will likely vote against any candidate in any race who is not in favor of restricting public funds for illegals or who discourages enforcement of immigration law.

You wrote "Americans cherish fairness, and somehow it doesn't seem fair to grant privileges of citizenship to people who took it upon themselves to jump past those who are lawfully waiting in line to get into this country." See, you like many others are couching your speech in politeness. Hint: it doesn't just *seem* unfair - it is not fair, plain and simple! This point, more than racism, nativism, or other reasons, is why most Americans do not favor the do-nothing, know-nothing attitudes of our current officials, and will not be swayed by illegals marching or boycotting.

Thank you, Herndon citizens.

Posted by: Charles | May 3, 2006 7:08 AM

We know that they are the scientists and engineers and inventors and entrepreneurs who keep America at the top of the heap."


This just shows that the media is incapable of even getting simple facts right in the immigration debate.

Hey Fischer, want to tell the truth of what some undocumented workers at the marches were saying in reference to reclaiming US territory:

"We didn't cross the border, the border crossed us"

How about the organizers of the rallies who have made public comments that the US stole California and Arizona from Mexico and that latinos have a right to take it back from America?

How about the pro-communist organizations who organized almost every pro-illegal rally. Wanna report on that?

How about the Mexican flags? How about the spanish only language usage?

Posted by: Catonsville, MD | May 3, 2006 7:13 AM

Instead of skiping work and school to jump around in the street, the Citizens walked the walk in the voting booth. I sure hope our National leaders were paying attention.

Posted by: Tom | May 3, 2006 7:55 AM

I will believe that people are serious about illegal immigration when they turn out people like Jane Napolitano in Arizona and dont vote for Ted Strickland as governor in Ohio. In Ohio skin color of the candidate will trump immigration, oil prices and other issues...mark my word.

Posted by: G. Chell | May 3, 2006 8:13 AM

There are many points in this article I would like to take issue with, but I will sum it up this way: regardless of how the Fishers and fellow-travelers of this country attempt to paint the picture, the American people reject the premise that we should open our arms to illegal immigrants and grant them the "rights" that they say they are entitled to. To enter and stay in this country is a priviledge and at the discretion of the American people, not because an individual was able to walk across an unguarded border. Hoefully the politicians on the national level (and that includes the President) will take heed of the voice of the American people.

Posted by: Ken, Ashburn | May 3, 2006 8:16 AM

To James:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."


The people of Herndon has neglected long term forecast of the situation. The day laborers are not going to go away when they close down the new day laborer site, they are going to start congregating somewhere else, maybe back at that 7-11, maybe somewhere else; it seems prudent to help them assimilate into the community by allowing a central site to help them learn English so people can stop complaining about lack of knowledge of English in these "poor and destitute." And to teach them to become Americans and teach them these so great American values that I can't seem to find in previous post.
It really doesn't take a first year philosophy major to know that we might have the next Albert Einstein, or Sergey Brin in our midst, as we might also have Mao Tse Dong or a Hitler, but the personalities of each depends on how Americans may show compassion and mercy to seed benevolence in possible future leaders.

Posted by: Liberty | May 3, 2006 8:24 AM

It does not help the reporting or discussion of a complex and emotional issue when the Post fails to make the distinction between illegal and legal immigration.

Here is the lead sentence from Fisher's column:

"The good people of Herndon have spoken, and in the privacy of the voting booth, they appeared to send a clear message: They do not want their town to cater to illegal immigrants."

Accurate enough. Now, here is the bold-face headline:

"In the Privacy of the Booth, No to Immigrants"

It is factually incorrect, leaves out the single most critical word, and is inflammatory. It would get an F in Journalism 101.

Some of the advocates in the immigration debate deliberately blur this critical distinction, in an effort to tar anyone who is concerned about the effects of illegal immigraton as an anti-Latino bigot. But it doesn't help matters for the Post to fall into that trap through careless headline writing.

Posted by: Meridian | May 3, 2006 8:33 AM

First, the title of the article needs to be changed. It should say "No To ILLEGAL Immigration." Amazing how Mr. Fischer keeps trying to hide the fact that these people are illegal.

Typical Liberal.

Posted by: A Silver Spring Resident | May 3, 2006 8:34 AM

"Remember America, you'd be nothing without these illegals getting you rich, you jerks!"

Spoken like a true uneducated, illegal immigrant!

Posted by: WB | May 3, 2006 8:44 AM

As an avowed liberal who feels compassion for illegal immigrants who come to America with high hopes for new opportunity and a new life, I appreciate Marc's observation that many of us are conflicted on this issue. Most of the vocal anti-immigration chatter comes from the mouths of nationalistica nd seemingly bigotted conservative wingnuts, which further clouds the issue.

But despite any of these factors, in seems to me that in the end, illegal immigrants have broken the law and put a strain on our communities and social services, and this is unacceptable. The fact that they seem to think they have the absolute right to illegally enter the country and then stay here makes me wonder what other laws they feel they have the right to flaunt at their convenience. Further more, I do not understand the goal of the current latino immigration movement: do they suggest that we ignore illegal immigration entirely, and simply open the borders and allow anyone who pleases to walk into the United States, undocumented, and stay here? That's what current illegal immigrants have done, and they apparently brazenly believe they had/have every right to do so. (Count me in as a member of the "backlash", I guess...)

I embrace all immigrants who respect the rule of law and appreciate the heritage of our nation, its government, and our culture. As much as I'd like to welcome every immigrant with a dream, however, we simply can't accomodate the entire world, and as a matter of good public policy, we can't support criminal behavior (like illegal entry into the US).

My solution? Grant one-time amnesty to those illegal immigrants already here who have found jobs and have made efforts to learn English and function as normal everyday citizens. Kick the rest out and build a wall to stop new illegals from coming in. It sounds draconian, but sometimes reality trumps feel-good compassion.

Posted by: oogliemooglie | May 3, 2006 9:09 AM

Wow! I read Marc's post as wise and conciliatory. I can't begin to say how sad the responses make me . . . and how unrealistic and poorly informed some of the authors seem.

The belief that, as a nation, we have either the will or the ability to simply stop illegal immigration, or that it would be wise to do so, doesn't seem justified by the facts on the ground.

How I wish we had an effective leader who could speak to all of us in a way that would acknowledge these conflicts as Marc has done and discuss the issue of immigration in the context of economics and in terms of our history and our national values.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 9:11 AM

Memo to the MSM

Quit saying immigrants say illegal immigrants

We are not xenophobic. We support immigrants. We do not support taxpayer dollars being used to help ILLEGAL immigrants.


Posted by: novamiddleman | May 3, 2006 9:14 AM

Without expressing any opinion I do have a few questions for those who call for full enforcement of existing immigration laws, mass deportations, etc. How much are you willing to pay for this? Would you support a tax increase to effect this? How much? Until a majority of citizens answers these questions "Whatever it takes, as long as it takes, until the job is done" this issue will be with us. And remember, any such policies would be carried out by our super efficient federal government, so add 50% and 20 years to your first estimate for completion. Unless of course the contract is let to a private firm, say Haliburton, in which case add 200% and one lifetime.

Posted by: kgy | May 3, 2006 9:36 AM

Being a legal immigrant who has been waiting in line for eight years and real close to getting my Green Card and silently complaining to the already overwhelmed INS/USCIS to expedite the process while being politely reminded that immigration is a priviledge not a right it really pains me to see ILLEGALS demanding something as a right which is a priviledge for every other immigrant.

Posted by: Legal Immigrant | May 3, 2006 9:38 AM

Marc,

You're out of touch. Get off the soapbox and quit your sanctimonious sermonizing. You're not the one who had illegals sitting on your lawn furniture at 6 AM waiting for the illegal alien hiring center to open. You pay no cost for the Herndon center, so shut up about it.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 9:39 AM

As christian, Jew, Arab, or any other religion, how do you expect to be in union with "God" and a part of the holy "church" when we divide and descrimate against other human souls based on arbitrary national borders. These lines on the map, languages, cultural insignificancies, divide humans and keep us from becoming a united brotherhood of souls, of becoming a unified church. Illegals are christians, they love and care for for wives, families, children, and parents equally as yourself. They get as hungary as you do when they don't eat. They have dreams of establishing a household, of earning a decent wage that can support a family and give their children a future. They aspire to have meaning in their lives. How different are they from you, personally? They speak a different language. That can be learned. They were born on another side of some line in the sand. Lines can be redrawn or wiped away entirely. They are human, spiritual beings much like yourself. So why do you wish to push them away, make them suffer, distroy their aspirations for a future life. Because of a line in the sand. The Roman empire was once defined as a line in the sand. What happened to it. All lines in the sand change over time. The human element does not. Our forefathers saw this. They devised the Bill of Rights to protect what they consider universal human rights given to us by God. How close are we to God when we create artificial barriers between his children? What is a family if brother fights against brother? The name of our country, "United States of America" does not define a citizen or grouping of people, because all of north America and South America is America. All are considered "Americans." So, why do we divide if we define ourselves by an inclusive name "American." It just shows we are double faced. We act as we are an open society, but the other face is close minded, racist, and uncaring.

Posted by: Mark | May 3, 2006 9:41 AM

This whole thing reminds me of a line from a political Satire a long time back.

Press: What do you plan to do about the issue of illegal liquor?
Politician: Make it legal.

Posted by: legal immigrant | May 3, 2006 9:44 AM

If we are in favor of enforcing the law, lets start with motor vehicle laws. This morning 95% of the motorist on the roads were illegals. 95% were breaking the speed limit, tail gating, driving in HOV, failing to yield, failing to stop completely at a light or stop sign, failing to slow down at a yellow light. Vehicle accidents cause tens of thousand of deaths a year, most could be prevented if motorist obey the law. Thousands more are injured. Billions are lost due to car accidents. Yet, where is the public get heated up to enforce these laws.

All of you are hypocrites.

Posted by: Mark | May 3, 2006 9:46 AM

BTW, does everyone notice how the media are always trying to say how "ambivalent" and "conflicted" the views of Americans are on illegal immigration, when the polls are always crystal clear? We want a wall, we want employer enforcement, we want an END to illegal immigration. And we're going to get it. No confusion, Mr. Fisher, and no ambivalence.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 9:50 AM

You at the Post have a "thing" against writing illegal as the modifier for immigrants in this issue. Why is that so?

Posted by: RJB | May 3, 2006 9:51 AM

Give me a break, Mark. People going 10 mph over the speed limit on their way to work aren't the same as people breaking into the country and using billions of dollars worth of taxpayer-funded resources.

And BTW, you wanna talk car accidents? Illegals have VERY high rates of drunk driving. Another reason to build the wall, enforce hiring laws, and end our illegal alien problem! That's what Mexico does with its illegals -- we can do it too. Si se puede!!

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 9:53 AM

After the protests/boycotts & the latest elections, I'm just wondering again, why is that the US can't enforce it's laws when it comes to Illegal immigrants ? People say there are 11 million illegal aliens & it would be impossible to deport all of them. Here's a NEWS FLASH - there's over 280+ million residents in the US, yet we effectively enforce traffic laws every day ! Apparently the US gov't will enforce it's laws, but only selectively.

Posted by: Pro Immigrant/Anti Illegal | May 3, 2006 9:56 AM

You are right, going 10 mph over the speed limit is much different. At higher speeds, the rate of fatally killing someone or causing an accident increases. Illegal immigration does not risk killing anyone. It might actually prevent their children from starving. However, speeding puts you and other innocent people's lives at risk. There is a monumental difference. Any way, a law is a law, right!

Posted by: RJB | May 3, 2006 9:56 AM

RJB, sorry for using your name. It was an accident.

Posted by: Mark | May 3, 2006 9:57 AM

The title posted on the web page was "In the Privacy of the Booth, No to Immigrants", while the actual vote and the clear intent of the voters was No to ILLEGAL Immigrants, quite a different sentiment.

Of course, the article itself says in the first paragraph, "in the privacy of the voting booth, they appeared to send a clear message: They do not want their town to cater to illegal immigrants."

The Post can't even make a headline that reflects the content of the story 3 lines down in the article?

Posted by: A Citizen | May 3, 2006 9:57 AM

The problem - the word illegal.
The thought of laws being disregarded.
Stealing, because you need the food. Oh it's okay.

Solution - decrimialize the person. Will send a mix message to american children. We can change the rules if a lot of people complain.

Posted by: Perplexed | May 3, 2006 10:04 AM

Although you clarify your the meaning of your title in your article, it would be more helpful that you include the word "illegal" to immigrants.

The American people don't oppose immigrants, they welcome them. They oppose ILLEGAL immigrants, no matter where they come from.

When the "illegal" is left out when speaking of illegal aliens, it portrays the Americans as a xenophobic lot. Nothing further from the truth.

Posted by: Pablo | May 3, 2006 10:05 AM

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports,immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.
So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might
need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4 I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5.. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the
flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and
lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy
access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any
effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the
memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all
police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals
on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not
want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes,
and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice
and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might
place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him
nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help

Posted by: Nam_Legal_Immigrant | May 3, 2006 10:06 AM

One reader posted the strawman that full enforcement of immigration laws would mean mass deportations. What a canard. Enforcement of the laws against employers would mean that EMPLOYERS would be subject to penalties for breaking the law, and that illegal aliens would gradually leave through inability to find jobs. Yes, this would be slow. Yes, this would mean verification systems and better ID, but we need that anyway. We know that a lack of standards and verifiability for identification, and the inability to share information is behind our intelligence failures. If our credit card companies and reporting bureaus can do this, why not the federal government?

As for Orgon's plea to humanity, well, perhaps he should be directing his pleas to the countries that these illegal aliens come from. I have total sympathy and a willingness to accept true political refugees, but economic migrants are the responsibility of their homelands, not mine. Illegal aliens show, from their first step in this country, that they do not have the same values that we do, namely respect for law and order. How many illegal aliens does it take until that lack of respect pervades our country?

Posted by: Ali | May 3, 2006 10:08 AM

How nice of you to write this article. You finally reported some truth! The people of America are sick and tired of illegal aliens claiming they have a right to everything! Sick and tired of it. They want to take back California, Arizona and Texas. More to follow! You guys in the liberal media won't even call the protests what they are...which is protests by illegal immigrants! In my opinion, they have no rights. I say round them all up at these work areas and any protests and deport them back! We are flooded with paying for their way here! We are sick and tired of being pushed around. The politicians do not represent us they represent the minority in this country and I have had enough as I have had enough of watching and reading liberal media articles and news!

Posted by: Jeffrey May | May 3, 2006 10:12 AM

For anyone wanting to send a message to their representatives about border enforcement, check out this innovative site:
http://www.send-a-brick.com/

Posted by: SecureOurBorders! | May 3, 2006 10:15 AM

I'm sorry, but I didn't see Mr. Fisher take a positon one way or the other on this issue, despite people on this blog saying that he's a mushy-headed liberal on this.

Posted by: DC resident | May 3, 2006 10:17 AM

25% of the voters have spoken.

Another way to look at it 13% of the registered voters of Herndon have said that they don't like a day laborer center.

Posted by: Not Harry F. Byrd, Sr. | May 3, 2006 10:19 AM

I have a solution to the financial mess of states. All American citizens who drop out of highschool should not get any public benefits. If a citizen can't even graduate highschool, why should they get free medical care, welfare, food stamps, child tax credit, etc. They are a drain. They are lazy bumbs. Let them rot. While we are on this point. If I pay taxes and for medical insurance, then why do I pay for some to get medical care free, legal or illegal? I'm sick of it. All lazy bumbs and lazy employers should be made to contribute their fare share. It is not of legal vs illegal. Its that there are lazy bumb businesses and american citizens that are parasites to society. Also, all those who cheat on taxes should by put in prison. This will get our finances in order better than kicking out hard working illegals.

Posted by: Mark | May 3, 2006 10:35 AM

One thing I never see in this discussion is - what if the illegals were Irish? Or Italian? Would we be having quiet as strong a reaction? What if the illegals spoke fluent English? As long as some posit arguements along the lines of "I can spot an illegal a mile away", I will never feel truly comfortable siding with the anti-immigrant faction in this.

Also, I don't hear alot about raising federal taxes to properly fund our border patrol. These things cost money, and as long as we propagate the myth that it doesn't, I can't see how we can move towards useful, measured solutions.

Posted by: Soulie | May 3, 2006 10:35 AM

Marc, I agree with the other posters. The headline title of your blog entry is EXTREMELY misleading. The people of Herdon said no to ILLEGAL immigration, not to immigration. Please change it to reflect the content of your article. This is the major flaw in the debate on this issue - the failure to distinguish LEGAL immigration from ILLEGAL immigration.

Posted by: Al | May 3, 2006 10:35 AM

That was my point yesterday is it really a mandate when less than 10% of the people vote

Posted by: novamiddleman | May 3, 2006 10:36 AM

Mark,

It's a sign of how weak the pro-illegal arguments are that the best you can do is throw up these straw-man hypotheticals to try to confuse the issue. If you think people who go 10 mph over the speed limit are just as much criminals as people who sneak into the country and use our schools, hospitals, prisons, roads, etc. without permission or paying for it, you're in a very small minority.

And actually, people who go 10 mph over the speed limit *are* punished more than illegals. I got a $50 ticket for going 11 mph over the speed limit on Macarthur Blvd -- and it probably paid for some illegal's food stamps (I see them cashing their food stamp checks all the time at Safeway).

It's an outrage already. Build the wall, employer enforcement, and watch our illegal problem self-deport.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 10:50 AM

Right on Herndon! You stepped up to the plate and set a precedent. We do not reward law breakers such as illegal aliens. I am sick and tired of this country losing billions, and spending billions because of illegal aliens. They have no right to work here, protest here, free hospitaliztion, overcrowd our schools, steal our Social Security numbers, etc. They are ILLEGAL. There are millions of people waiting to enter this counntry legally, that will take their jobs in a second. How about we all protest in Mexico? We're tired of supporting you Vicente Fox...take them back, or we'll send them back! This is not over. America has spoken!

Posted by: Mike | May 3, 2006 10:50 AM

I think some people who are making the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigration don't realize the extent to which the problem is created by the laws, not by the immigrants.

The interesting thing about the election is how close it was; of 2600 votes, only 130-200 votes separated winners and losers. The demographic trend suggests that many young Hispanics will be becoming voters soon. Many pro-immigrant voters are simply surprised that the change hasn't already affected majority sentiment; the status quo isn't likely to last much longer.

Posted by: Herdon Democrat | May 3, 2006 10:54 AM

I agree with some of the others, the headline on this article is very misleading. The voters did not say NO to all immigrants, just illegal ones.

Posted by: Fred | May 3, 2006 10:55 AM

Al, Fred and several others of you are correct--the banner over this blog item should have had the word "illegal" in it, and now it does. Headlines are of course shorthand, and sometimes they're too short. Thanks for making the case for the change.

Posted by: Fisher | May 3, 2006 10:57 AM

Why is there any fretting over what may happen to the illegal aliens if they close the Herndon center? People are getting concerned that they may once again congregate in front of the 7-11? Just DEPORT them! Why is this so complicated? The have no rights. Get rid of them, and keep them out once they're gone.

Join me in burning the Mexican flag this "cinqo de mayo" (May 5th to Americans). When did "Cinqo de Mayo" become an American holiday? I don't want to hear any more about this crappy piece of mexicana. Burn the mexican flag, baby, burn.

Posted by: stegman | May 3, 2006 10:58 AM

The entire debate of calling the 12 million people already here "immigrants" vs. "illegal immigrants" strikes me a deeply ingenuous. A government that does not enforce laws on the books and allows undocumented people to enter the country for decades and becomes systematically habituated to the cheap labor and economic prosperity that they bring has no moral authority to retro-actively label these people as "illegal". They are illegal because our (changeable) laws describe them as such. It used to be illegal for black folks to eat at a white lunch counter. The sit-ins were "illegal" but civil disobedience and rational discourse changed the hearts and minds of the people and thus the laws.

While we can argue about whether or not they SHOULD be here, the fact remains that they ARE here. A sudden withdrawl of this pool of labor would devestate the economy and our (mostly) comfortable middle-class standard of living. The immigrants are here. Integrate them. Encourage them to Americanize. Move them (and their children) up the economic foodchain.

Laws are fluid and often require change. Since deportation is not an option for those already here. We must integrate and move on. The debate should be about rationalizing (legalizing) our demand for labor. Let people-skilled and unskilled-have a chance to improve the Country.

Posted by: ben | May 3, 2006 10:59 AM

Orgon said:

Mark,

It's a sign of how weak the pro-illegal arguments are that the best you can do is throw up these straw-man hypotheticals to try to confuse the issue. If you think people who go 10 mph over the speed limit are just as much criminals as people who sneak into the country and use our schools, hospitals, prisons, roads, etc. without permission or paying for it, you're in a very small minority.

I don't think this was Marc Fisher. It's not likely Marc would have misspelled his own name.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 11:04 AM

As a legal immigrant who filled out the immigration forms, paid the filing fees, spent years patiently waiting in the immigration queue, got a physical, got an AIDS test, and finally traveled hundreds of miles to get interviewed by a staff at the American consulate, I AM OUTRAGED AT THE ILLEGALS!

They simply walk across a border and claim the right to stay?

That is a slap in my face!

Posted by: Dave G | May 3, 2006 11:06 AM

No THS, there's a poster named Mark on this thread, not Marc Fisher, who spells it with a C.

Marc Fisher: thanks for changing the headline on the blog post. But on the front page of WashingtonPost.com, it still says ""no to immigrants," which is false.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 11:12 AM

How long would any of us continue to buy metro farecards and walk through the turnstyles "legally" if, day-after-day we observed others joining us on the train after we watched them jump over the turnstyles?

Ellis Island symbolizes an orderly, lawful, process.

Posted by: Silence DoGood | May 3, 2006 11:14 AM

"No THS, there's a poster named Mark on this thread, not Marc Fisher, who spells it with a C."


Yes, that's the point I was making.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 11:16 AM

THS wrote:

"The belief that, as a nation, we have either the will or the ability to simply stop illegal immigration, or that it would be wise to do so, doesn't seem justified by the facts on the ground."

I don't mind people disagreeing with me on illegal immigration, but if you're open borders, just come out and say so, instead of relying on this "we can't do anything to stop illegal immigration" garbage.

Sure we can. For $4 billion we could build a fence on the entire US-Mexico border. That's the amount we're wasting in Iraq every month. Then for a pittance the government could enforce its laws and go after a few employers for real -- no need to spend much new money or pass new laws, since they're already on the books.

Without jobs and with a fence in the way, the flow of illegals into the country stops quickly. Those already here largely self-deport after their jobs are gone. Problem solved, very quickly, very cheaply.

So if you want open borders, try to make your case plainly. There aren't many convincing arguments in favor of open borders or our current "system," however, which is why people try to fall back on the weak "we can't stop illegal immigration" argument.

Build the wall. Si se puede!

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 11:22 AM

"Ellis Island symbolizes an orderly, lawful, process."


I'm curious about what happened at Ellis Island. Were there standards people had to meet? I know there were health checks of some sort, but all the stories about people arriving with $5 in their pockets suggest there were no income requirements. Certainly there were no education or language requirements. Were visas required? Did people become citizens if they met whatever minimal requirements were imposed on entry to the U.S., or did they have to meet some citizenship requirement after living here for some time? If so, what were those requirements?

I'm not saying that the standards that were used in the early 20th century should necessarily apply, but it would be interesting to know what was required to be "legal" at various points in history. Certainly many of the earliest European immigrants simply showed up, stepped ashore, and started making their way as best they could.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 11:22 AM

The people of Herndon did not vote. Of the population of 23000 only 3000 thousand voted. That represents 13% of the population. Of the 3000, 58% were for the incumbent which represents 1740 people.
How can you say that this is a vote of confidence ?
The Minutemen are a bunch of racists and they are very similar to the KKK. They should not be doing the job that the government should be doing.
We have an immigration system that is severely broken. The Kennedy-McCain bill in my opinion will not even stop the illegals from entering the country.
There must be another way to fix the immigration issue.
The INS is in a huge backlog since 2001. Can you imagine how much more congestion there will be in their system if the new Bill gets passed.
In the past the government addressed the illegal immigration issue by giving illelegals amnesty in various forms, but it was a form of amnesty. So if you are an illelegal immigrant, why not wait for amnesty. It will happen.
Regarding the protesters, I have sympathy for them. They are the people that are keeping the country running. However they have broken a law by coming here illelegally in the first place.
If you apply the law in some areas and do not do so in other areas it leads to lawlessness.
The government needs to fix the immigration soon and the issues on the table right now do not.

Posted by: Karl Smit | May 3, 2006 11:23 AM

Ben wrote:

"A government that does not enforce laws on the books and allows undocumented people to enter the country for decades and becomes systematically habituated to the cheap labor and economic prosperity that they bring has no moral authority to retro-actively label these people as "illegal".

Wrong. A government has every right to enforce its laws, even if enforcement has been lax in the past.

"It used to be illegal for black folks to eat at a white lunch counter."

Right, and that was an injustice. So Ben, tell the people what that situation has in common with millions of people breaking into our country and demanding costly benefits they have no legal or moral right to. We're waiting.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 11:29 AM

"We're conflicted, and so our votes conflict with one another."

No, my friend. You may be conflicted, because you must serve your masters at the politically correct Washington Post; we are not conflicted. Mass Third World immigration, legal or illegal, is insanity.

See how easy it is when you don't have to play the "on the one hand, on the other hand" game that is required of you?

Posted by: Rick Darby | May 3, 2006 11:32 AM

I think one problem associated with understanding the effects of immigration on the U.S. is that the costs are focused, but the benefits are diffuse.

That is, we can fairly easily determine the immigration status of an ER patient, a criminal defendant, or even a school child, and we can then calculate the cost in public services of dealing with that person. It's more difficult to calculate (or, at least, for non-economists to observe directly) the benefits in terms of increased GDP, social security taxes paid by people who cannot collect benefits, and other taxes (e.g., sales taxes).

One recent study, conducted by a highly skilled economist, showed that the benefits slightly outweighed the costs. The same study indicated that the presence of illegal immigrants in the labor force suppressed wages by 3-5%, but only for citizens who had not graduated from high school. Another study showed an 8% effect for the same category of workers.

Other reports have indicated that patterns and rates of assimilation for Spanish-speaking immigrants (mainly w/ regard to language learning) are fairly similar to those of immigrants from other locations--Asia, for instance.

I think those concerned with the "billions and billions" that illegal immigration costs do not really have all the facts.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 11:37 AM

Kill the immigrants.

Posted by: Joyce | May 3, 2006 11:37 AM

Instead of worrying about Illegal immigrants maybe everyone should turn their faces to the war in Iraq. Seems to me that this is a more important topic then anything going on in this country.

Also weren't we all immigrants at one point?

Posted by: Herndon Resident | May 3, 2006 11:45 AM

Enforce illegal immigration laws all you want. Just don't complain when a head of lettuce costs $8. And criticize the employers/enablers who make illegal immigration possible and attractive.

Posted by: Chris | May 3, 2006 11:48 AM

I was never an immigrant.

Posted by: Jon | May 3, 2006 11:49 AM

I'm guessing Joyce is a pro-open borders troll.

Herndon resident: no, we weren't all immigrants at one point. It really speaks volumes about how arrowless the quiver of pro-illegal arguments has become when they have to fall back on semantic games like Mark's speeding analogy above and the whole "no human being is illegal" crap. Try immigrating illegally to Mexico and let us know what happens. I'll be sure to visit you at that prison in Chiapas.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 11:50 AM

Chris writes:

"Enforce illegal immigration laws all you want. Just don't complain when a head of lettuce costs $8."

Still waiting for quality pro-illegal immigrant arguments to roll in. Needless to say, a head of lettuce will not cost $8 if we enforce our immigration laws. It may cost a dime more temporarily, but then US agriculture will mechanize quickly, and the cost will likely be lower than it was when illegals picked the lettuce.

The massive influx of cheap labor illegals have provided over the past few decades has severely disincentivized American agribusinesses from investing money in mechanization of their harvesting processes. This would change with enforcement of our laws.

Si se puede! Build the wall.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 11:54 AM

A country cannot control immigration without first securing it's borders. It's 4.5 years since 9/11 & our borders are still not secure ! When will our representatives get a clue !

Posted by: BorderSecurityFirst | May 3, 2006 11:59 AM

Why do I keep hearing this babble about compassion and sympathy for the plight of illegal immigrants and nothing about the long term cost of paying for the compassion and sympathy?

Most illegal immigrants from Mexico are unskilled labor. As a result these immigrants will be a drain on society for minimum 20 years. And this is assuming they get assimilated and hopefully their kids graduate and become productive members of society in 20 years time. IF they pay any taxes on their wages, their net cost in medicare, school services, housing costs will still put them in a net negative cost on the community. Should we make them legal and allow them to import their extended families, we would be facing a bigger net drain on our resources. I've read studies that the illegals are a 1% net economic gain for the US but none of those studies incorporate the costs in social services for the illegals and the low skilled citizens they displaced.

If 11 million US citizens illegally crossed the border into Mexico and marched in the streets of Mexico City demanding rights as a Mexican citizen, there would most likely be 11 million US citizens rotting in the corrupt Mexican jail cells. Well maybe only half the marchers since the other half would have bribed the cops.

Mexico should quit using the US as their social safety net and fix their own screwed up system.

Posted by: PTT | May 3, 2006 12:00 PM

"It may cost a dime more temporarily, but then US agriculture will mechanize quickly, and the cost will likely be lower than it was when illegals picked the lettuce.

The massive influx of cheap labor illegals have provided over the past few decades has severely disincentivized American agribusinesses from investing money in mechanization of their harvesting processes. This would change with enforcement of our laws."


I would be interested in learning which crops are susceptible to mechanization of the sort you describe. American agriculture is already heavily mechanized. Given the cost and uncertainty associated with human labor and the incentives to machinery manufacturers to invent and market machines, I'd be surprised if many of the tasks now carried out by agricultural laborers--mainly picking fruits and vegetables--could be effectively mechanized. My father is a farmer, who uses "stoop labor" for only one task. Recruiting and housing people for a job that takes only a couple of weeks is not always easy. If it could be mechanized, I think it would be.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 12:02 PM

This is not a Democratic v Republican issue. Recently under the auspices of Frank Wolfe, the Herndon POlice Chief was sent to El Salvador to a conference on gang violence:
http://www.timescommunity.com/site/tab5.cfm?newsid=16544371&BRD=2553&PAG=461&dept_id=511691&rfi=6

These people contribute very little to our society. If meat packing plants need workers, let them recruit in the rust belt areas with high unemployment. What about recruiting people for industry who used to have jobs in the Mississippi delta and pay them relocation expenses? I have no symapthy for chicken processing plants. I have even less sympathy for somebody who hasn't run a vacuum in 5 years. One fellow who was very briefly a day laborer advised against hiring them since most who are of good character and reputable do not stay in that labor pool very long.


Note the machete mutilations over the last few years.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 3, 2006 12:03 PM

Where are these people so set upon the rule of law when our own president is breaking UN rules with his Iraq ´preemptive strike´ or violating Geneva conventions with torture in prisons, or our own laws with internal spying and Guantanamo detentions? Do they realize the USA became free by ignoring British laws and powerful by breaking treaties with its own indigenous people, or forcing Mexico and Spain at the end of a gun into giving up its territory, which is SURPRISE full of citizens atuned to Spanish culture. Go find some real family values and human compassion in your failed conservatism which only honors the rich and powerful. Its laughable to call for a 'great wall' of the USA... like hungry people care where governments draw lines. Look where it got China... a quick Mongol invasion but a fine modern tourist attraction! That's what you want to spend tax dollars and public policy on, a future relic. Like hopefully what the neocons in this country will soon become if the country ever returns to its real values... hard work and the American Dream of economic success, which is all these poor people seek. Maybe Herndon will build its own city wall and return to a civic model abandoned in the middle ages!

Posted by: The Great Wall of USA | May 3, 2006 12:04 PM

Marc Fisher --

Again, thanks for changing the blog post headline. But the headline on the front page of WashingtonPost.com still says:

Raw Fisher: A Clear Message: No to Immigrants. That is obscene, since that wasn't the message at all. The message was no to *illegal* immigrants.

The Post does this all the time, so forgive us we don't think the headline writer was just pressed for time. Marcela Sanchez, Ruth Marcus, Emily Messner -- they're *constantly* trying to blur the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. Do they think their readers are that stupid?


Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:05 PM

To say this is an issue of "law and order" or that people should be penalized for breaking the law is simplistic, ignores the historical record and does not ask what I view as the real question: why are the immigration laws the way they are now so as to make these folks illegal in the first place?

Immigration laws have not always been the way they are now; our country as a long, sorry history of allowing "desired" groups in, while keeping "undesirables" (first, the Irish and Eastern Europeans, later Asians, now Latinos) out - a distinction almost always drawn on racial and/or religious lines. Then, as now, the same arguments were made against the "illegals" - they would steal jobs from Americans, etc. Ultimately, those fears turned out to be unfounded and America became a richer, more vibrant place because of them.

(As an aside it is very ironic, to say the least, that, after the ancestors of white Europeans took the Americas from their native inhabitants, we now seek to penalize immigrants coming into this country who by and large are descended, in whole or in part, from those Native Americans from whom we took the land in the first place).

I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation of why we should be so eager to declare the (mostly) Latino immigrants illegal and punish them when, in the past, we have willingly opened the floodgates to white Europeans. To say, as some have said, this is not a racial issue or one of prejudice, is a joke.

Posted by: Mike_DC | May 3, 2006 12:05 PM

THS,

We put a man on the moon -- decades ago -- so I think we can mechanize the harvesting of lettuce heads and oranges. The problem is that big ag has little incentive to mechanize since they have a constant pool of very cheap labor (whose social costs big ag does NOT pick up).

Take away their cheap source of labor, and American ingenuity will get the heads of lettuce plucked real efficiently. Japan has been mechanizing many of their industries since the 1970s instead of relying on cheap illegal immigration, since they wisely realize that the social costs of allowing massive thrid world immigration into their country far outweighs the benefits.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:08 PM

Hispanics are trying to demographically take over America, and if anyone takes issue with that they are decried as "racist."

Here's how the takeover happens:

1) Millions of hispanics (who have more kids than the average American) illegally enter the US.

2) The hispanics then demand proportionate representation in the professional world (affirmative action) and political arena. They insist that since they have large numbers that it's racist to not have an equivalent representation in these areas.

3) With greater political clout the hispanics then snowball this phenomenon. They create greater pressure to open our country up to their "raza," and around and around we go.

4) Before you know it they will have taken over. Because in a democracy, POPULATION (demos) EQUALS POWER.

Epilogue: The majority hispanic USA becomes a Third World country, and is ruined.

Posted by: Henry | May 3, 2006 12:11 PM

Mike DC,

Assimilation takes time. We've had historical periods of high immigration followed by periods of low immigration to allow the melting pot to work its magic.

The people on this thread (except for troll Joyce) aren't anti-immigrant. They're anti-illegal immigrant. Too many immigrants is like having having too much spice on your food: it ruins the meal. Just the right amount of spice is wonderful, however. Right now we've got way too many illegals, and it's time to put an end to that so America can remain great and not slide into thrid world status. If you think that's an exaggeration, I've got lists of cities in the Southwest for you to visit.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:12 PM

To Soulie:

If somehow 12 million, say, Lithuanians managed to sneak into the country and then demanded citizenship, I guarantee you the liberal media would scream bloody murder.

Posted by: BloggerMcBloggie | May 3, 2006 12:18 PM

I believe I read an economic study that showed farm labor was ~6% of produce costs so $8 lettuce seems unlikely. The WP article Sunday talked of the benefits of illegals' labor as did another poster. It seems to me that the benefits go mostly to the upper class and corporations and that the middle and lower classes carry the burden. For example, illegal groundskeeping workers make it affordable but I can't afford even that and must do it myself. But a hospital that provides free care to illegals has to pass that cost on to all - including me. The Sunday article talked of cheap labor at a pricey DC restaurant and how without that labor it would be too expensive. Well it's too expensive for the middle and lower class already so where's our economic benefit. And please, WP, be honest and truthful and use illegal when writing about the issue.

Posted by: james | May 3, 2006 12:18 PM

For one, I think if the undocumented were canadians, we won't be having this issue. And I can't help but think that most of these "right wingers" who are now aligning with extreme groups like the KKK, would've stood against Civil Right marchers.

We've all fallen short of his mercy...

Posted by: Sly Domber | May 3, 2006 12:18 PM

Kill the americans! You don't like that so much do you!

Posted by: S | May 3, 2006 12:20 PM

Radical organizers,anti-American groups,
gay and lisbion groups,illegal immigrants, and terrorist groups do not speak for
AMERICA.
All that they have accomplished is,
WAKENING A SLEEPING GIANT.

Posted by: Jo Mauro | May 3, 2006 12:21 PM

Orgon you are incorrect about Japan. Their population demographic is starting to shift heavily towards old retirees. They NEED a big immigration boost in order to find employees who will pay for the pensions of all those retirees. The social cost of their zealous anti-immigration policies is coming back to bite them.

THS, recently a new machine to harvest cranberries was just introduced. It was a simple spring device that was a vast improvement over the previous machine since it did less damage to the plant. There are machines that will harvest fruits but less efficiently than pickers and more costly. Tomato farmers complained that they would go out of business without cheap labor. When their source of labor was diminished, they quickly produced a machine to harvest their crop and are now still thriving. Just because a machine has not been envisioned does not preclude it from being developed at some future date. With enough incentive, anything can be accomplished in the land of opportunity.

We need immigration to keep a vibrant democracy alive, we don't need waves of illegal immigration seeking to suborn the foundations of that democracy.

Posted by: PTT | May 3, 2006 12:21 PM

Sly Domber,

Please let us know who's been "aligning with extreme groups like the KKK". I'm really curious to know.

Again, the weakness of the arguments on the pro-illegal side is striking, especially in contrast to the simple logic on the pro-enforcement side.

Game over. Herndon is just the beginning and the politicians know it. The wall is on its way.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:22 PM

And why did the WP bury in the Sunday paper the news report of the conviction of a man guilty of bringing hundreds mid-eastern men into the country through Mexico? Maybe none were or will become dangerous, but isn't this a security issue worth interjecting into the border discussion?

Posted by: james | May 3, 2006 12:22 PM

Frankly, I think people who are here illegally and then demonstrated and went on strike for their "rights," overplayed their hand. It would be offensive in any country, including the Latin American countries from which many migrants originate, for illegal migrants to demonstrate in the streets in a foreign language demanding their "rights" as citizens when, in fact, they are here by subterfuge. It's ironic that some Central American countries actually round up and expel illegal aliens from another, neighboring Central American country; but that discussion is for another time and another day.

At the same time, the hypocrisy shown by many native-born Americans who on one hand employ illegal migrants and then decry their presence here, needs to stop. What I advocate is: control the border, enforce the laws, and then decide how many people from which countries you need here and for what purpose and certify individuals for work. As for undocumented migrants that are already here: the federal gov't needs a policy of accommodating only those that are needed in the numbers that are needed, certifying them for employment, and placing severe penalties on employers that hire noncertified workers. These iniatives would end the bitterness that is infesting our national policy debates.

Posted by: Tim | May 3, 2006 12:24 PM

Mexico can have Texas back if they want it, but Arizona is rather nice - let's keep that one.

Posted by: mouse | May 3, 2006 12:25 PM

i am the daughter of a hispanic immigrant (legal) and i am completely disgusted by the extreme nativist sentiment i see here. i was born and raised in this country and i've loved it like no other. this is my home but i don't feel welcome anymore. i feel scared i'm going to be attacked by one of you people. i have a college degree from a prestigious university and i still get questioned if i'm even legal! i speak perfect english and write very well...my test scores consistently put me in the top 90th percentile of students. if anything, my spanish is a bit rusty! and still i feel threatened...


what are you people so scared of? i mean, really...what the heck are you so freakin scared of? and don't give me the tired "oh they're taking away public services" crap because you're the same people that say that about "lazy blacks" or "welfare queens" even though they (and immigrants) have jobs and put more money into the economy than take from it. please give me some educated thoughts instead of inane babble...

Posted by: disgusted | May 3, 2006 12:25 PM

PTT,

Funny, the Japanese don't feel they "NEED a big immigration boost," as you put it. They realize that immigration would tear up the fabric of their fragile, rules-oriented society, and they haven't allowed that to happen. And they have indeed become the world leader in robotics as they creatively find ways to avoid mass third world immigration.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:25 PM

...I believe that "we" has been used far too easily, in this article.

For one I don't believe the immigration system is "broken".

Just on that issue alone, what would you change about it, and why?

It could be faster, but then, have you ever had a background check?

These things take time and money and you should be glad -very glad- that the US government is willing to do them at no cost for each and every person who applies for a US visa.

Still, as they say in the US courts, it is what it is, and one must work within the system, yes?

And it is not like an illegal cannot get a work permit or residency here. And if you consider it "broken" for that reason, that is something I'd agree with.

But they should AT LEAST TRY to be here legally.

Instead of trying to get the law changed or skipping across the border.

Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 12:26 PM

To THS

Yes, Ellis Island was a "gate," people working there were "gatekeepers" and people seeking entry - most of them - passed through the gate.

The presence of detailed records and absence of any "notorious Ellis Island riots" is ample proof that things were orderly.

Between 1979 and 1994, the UN and our State Department administered the Orderly Departure Program ODP and oversaw the relatively smooth introduction of 500,000 Vietnamese into our Country, with the assistence of faith-based organizations and sponsors.

I am just trying to get the concept of orderliness into the dialog.

Of course a mob at the Bastille does not want to discuss the topic of order or orderliness.

So, however the outcome falls, make it an orderly process. My spouse completed all applications, paid all fees, waited six years after lawful entry to our country and was Naturalized a year ago.

The process will require patience.

Posted by: Silence DoGood | May 3, 2006 12:30 PM

Disgusted,

Thanks for your post. Would you elaborate on why you "don't feel welcome" in the United States anymore? I'm curious to know.

Also, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you certainly don't "write very well."

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:30 PM

Mexico set to legalize personal amounts of pot, cocaine, heroin

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/28/mexico.drugs.ap/

Is this the kind of family values you mean when you say that they don't stop at the Rio Grande President Bush ?

Posted by: RUKiddingMe | May 3, 2006 12:32 PM

Let's say it one more time....Americans aren't against immigrants but they ARE against ILLEGAL immigration. For some reason, the ILLEGAL part gets left out repeatedly by the media and politicians. We respect the rule of law, even if our so-called leaders don't. How can parents teach their children to be law abiding citizens when their elected officials fail to even acknowledge the laws and those who break them?

Posted by: Sandra Arnoult | May 3, 2006 12:34 PM

How do you legalize most of 12 million (estimated) illegal immigrants, with no documentation or background information?

Isn't that a core reasoning why the proposal is that illegal immigrants return to their native countries and re-enter legally and documented?

Vice versa, if I were an illegal immigrant, what would motivate me to leave a job where I make 4 times more? Isn't it obvious the existing laws and enforcement are simply a joke?

And unless we're talking about blanket immunity for ALL illegal immigrants, than isn't that all the more unfair?

Posted by: Jason | May 3, 2006 12:35 PM

Orgon, some Japanese towns are now paying women to have kids. What does that tell you about the desperation?

When 3 workers pay for 1 retiree and in 20 years 1 worker pays for 1 retiree, what do you think happens to the budget? Just look at our Social Security problem now. Japan has a much more extensive and costly social welfare program. Ponzi schemes depend on more new players each generation and since Japan is facing a net population decrease, the gig is up unless they find more new players somewhere. Hey look that means immigration.

Someone has to pay those social security taxes and robots don't do that.

Posted by: PTT | May 3, 2006 12:35 PM

Wow...I don't recognize this country I was born in and have long come to love. I am pro-open borders, I am opposed to any kind of fence separating our country with any other country. I am willing to spend tax dollars to help folks in this country who are here by whatever means. I am concerned about security, but I am not paranoid. Stopping illegal immigration will not radically change our economy, but improving, expanding, and expediting the legal immigration procedures will greatly improve our country.

Oh, and Herndon voters, I have come often to your town for various events, including the Herndon Festival and other activities. I am going to think twice now. I don't want to do anything which will support the prejudice I see expressed by this recent vote.

Thanks.

Posted by: someone in dc | May 3, 2006 12:35 PM

Hey "Disgusted,"

If you feel threatened then its because you sympathize with the illegal aliens. You're hispanic, and you probably don't mind the thought of a hispanic takeover. If you feel disgusted then its probably because you disgust yourself.

Don't deny the fact that hispanics are trying to take over this country.

Posted by: henry | May 3, 2006 12:36 PM

wow, so much to read, but I spy a good question amongst the muck.

"To say this is an issue of "law and order" or that people should be penalized for breaking the law is simplistic, ignores the historical record and does not ask what I view as the real question: why are the immigration laws the way they are now so as to make these folks illegal in the first place? "


well, ignoring the historical record for a brief moment, they are illegal because they entered the country illegally. They do not have a visa to work in the US. They don't even have a visa to enter the US.

Now, why is this?

This is where the historical record comes into play.

However, given that, they still are illegal, the moment they decided to sneak in, and, they are illegal as they work here illegally. It is not just one or the other, it is both together. If they could not work here they would not come here, but, they came here, illegally, and they work here, illegally.

It is like a robber who then keeps the goods he steals. It's not just one crime.

Now they want the title so they have legal ownership of the goods.

Mexico and most of the countries in South America have emigrated so many citizens to the US that the USCIS (renamed INS) quotas for emigration visas for these countries are very low. And as well, so many of their citizens have overstayed their visas, and been denied visas for other reasons (technical), that their approval rate is so low that they are not on the VEP list. The Visa Exchange Program countries can just walk to US points of entry and present their passport and come in.

It is not a complicated issue. It is an issue of ignorance (much of it purposeful), and an issue of widespread lawbreaking.

These people would not be worried about being illegal, if they would be legal or if we continued to turn our heads to their being and working here illegally. But they don't want to be legal, and we are not tolerating their illegal activities. It's that simple.

If they wanted to be legal they would leave, or at least APPLY for US residency. There is a way to do this, and it does happen.

It just does not happen "like that".

not nearly as easy as it was for them to sneak in across the border and find a job.

WAY more complicated than that.

And that is the issue now.

Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 12:37 PM

PTT writes:

"Orgon, some Japanese towns are now paying women to have kids. What does that tell you about the desperation?"

France is doing it, too. It's called the natalist movement, and it's not "desperation" -- it's a rational national reaction to a problem (low birth rates). It's far more desirable -- and cost-effective -- than importing tens of millions of illegal immigrants.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:38 PM

Whoa Joyce it's not that serious, and when did America become so "fair". America was built on sneaking arcoss borders, but in the past we sailed over on ships, stole food and made it a holiday.

I see lots of post about our tax dollars being spent to help illegals find work. Where do you think they spend the money? Then I read about the wages being lowered because of illegal workers. Thats BS because you folks wouldn't do those jobs if they offered decent salaries and good benifits. I just don't see most backlashers working in the fast food industry, but I do see plenty of soccer moms pulling up in drive thru's buying happy meals for the winning team.

At the end of the day it's about survival, as a Black man in America I learned this a long time ago. You work hard and provide for your family. If it's legal thats good, but if you have to hop a fence and work for $7.00 and hour then do it.

Posted by: J | May 3, 2006 12:40 PM


You can't justify a pro-illegal stance by making up stories about the anti-illegal people breaking the law.

I would like to see the illegals legalized, but I don't wink at the law and hire the illegals, and I am more than willing to pay what it takes to support legal workers.

I'm not winking at any laws and I don't like the implication that I am.

Posted by: John James | May 3, 2006 12:41 PM

Let's say it one more time....Americans aren't against immigrants but they ARE against ILLEGAL immigration. For some reason, the ILLEGAL part gets left out repeatedly by the media and politicians. We respect the rule of law, even if our so-called leaders don't.

Posted by: Sandra Arnoult | May 3, 2006 12:42 PM

To PTT: Robots will pay taxes in the not too distant future, then become self aware, rise up and destroy us all - saw it in some movie once.

Posted by: Fonzi | May 3, 2006 12:43 PM

BTW, folks, America didn't "steal" this land from the Indians -- we won it through war.

If you've got a problem with that, realize that most dominant ethnic groups in most countries right now also acquired their land that way.

Not "stolen" -- "won".

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:44 PM

ps

to "disgusted"...

clearly you are the one who is scared. Not me.

you should find the courage to confront the obvious answer to your own questions.

If so many of your fellow Latinos were not here breaking the law on a daily basis and hiding behind each other, then you would not have so much to worry about, yes?

You have just seen millions of Latinos marching the streets and demanding US citizenship for illegal aliens, for people who have invaded our country and who continue to break our laws on a daily basis and you ask why *WE* are scared?

This is not about US being scared. It is about LATINOS being scared. That the bill is coming due for the milk that their illegal relatives and friends are stealing.

Just as it is not about anti IMMIGRATION.

It is about anti ILLEGAL immigration.

If your friends can stay here legally, more power to you. But that is a weight we all have to carry and it simply is not fair or right for Latinos to get a pass just because they march or threaten to vote. Obeying the law is a part of being an American citizen. No one should get an exception to the law, and those who break it must expect the consequences.

And if you truly want to be an American, you have to accept this.


Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 12:44 PM

Whoah. Nothing in all my posts supports waves of illegal immigration.

I AM against using Japan as an example of good immigration policy. Their policy is xenophobic no immigration allowed at all. That is why the US and NOT Japan as you incorrectly suppose leads the world in innovation. Our universities and research centers our populated by the best minds the world over because of our acceptance of LEGAL immigration.

Paying natives to breed is moronic. The stupid ones already breed too much so why would you give them more money? So they can create more welfare kids? The smart ones would calculate that your one time payout is peanuts compared to the cost of raising a college educated child.

Once again, illegal immigration bad. Legal immigration good. NO immigration stupid.

Posted by: PTT | May 3, 2006 12:50 PM

Mexicans are leeches. They are parasites sucking the lifeblood of our country.

Why can't these latin american countries fix themselves? If these people are "in search of a better life," (as they always say) why can't they work at improving their lives at home?

If they came here and tried to actually assimilate I'd probably feel more sympathetic to them. But the fact is they are colonizing us. WHFS is now spanish-language. There are probably four spanish-language channels on basic cable alone. I can't use a phone or ATM menu without first specifying that yes, I want to proceed in english.

Face the facts- they don't want to come and be Americans. They want to come and reap the benefits of the nation we have created (and then proclaim in their marches that they built this nation) and change America to accomodate them and their ways. I don't like that. I don't like the fact that if I have a problem with this de facto hispanic INVASION that I am condemned (as a racist). It actually waters down the meaning of "racism" if this is all it takes to be one.

Posted by: clark | May 3, 2006 12:51 PM

PTT writes:

"Once again, illegal immigration bad. Legal immigration good. NO immigration stupid."

I agree that we benefit when we skim the smartest people from countries around the world, as we do now via selective, high-end immigration. But that's not what we're arguing about here.

My point was that Japan has resisted immigration pressures successfully via mechanization for mundane tasks as opposed to bringing in immigrants to do them.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:54 PM

Marc Fisher:

THANK YOU! -- for changing both the headline of your blog post and the headline on the main page of the Post's website to reflect that the vote in Herndon was a strong anti-ILLEGAL immigrant message, not a strong anti-immigrant one.

You go up a click in my esteem. Can we get you to educate Ruth Marcus on this extremely not complex distinction, or would that be pushing our luck?

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 12:56 PM

Blame the catholic church. They told those people to replicate to the point where the Mexican government can no longer guarantee jobs for everyone.

Posted by: Waiting in Line | May 3, 2006 12:56 PM

Dear Disgusted:

On a personal level, I've been through this before, so my best advice to you is that it's best to be calm. You are born here so you have a leg-up on the rest of the world. Despite it all, the U.S. still has the best to offer of all the nations.

Unfortunately, and as sad as this is, you had best get used to the angry feelings of non-Hispanic native-born Americans (and, yes, many Hispanic native-born Americans in our midst feel anger an illegal migrants also). The backlash you are experiencing happened in the 19th century to the Irish and after that to Poles, Italians, and other immigrant groups. Why would it not happen now?

My advice to you is to develop a thicker skin and please, oh, please, learn to punctuate your sentences the right way. If you are feeling like you have to be "better" than other people to prove your worth, like you have to prove yourself, that's absolutely right. That's just the way it is.

I learned English at a very young age and despite straight A's and 740 on my verbal SAT, my high school teachers still expressed surprise that I spoke and wrote English well. Education, self-confidence, and an appreciation for what America has to offer will ensure your success. Your success, in turn, will serve to promote the causes of "your people."

Best regards to you.

Posted by: Tim | May 3, 2006 12:57 PM

What do you expect from left wing bleeding heart liberals... This is all about ILLEGAL immigration, not legal immigration, but that`s how the left wing media lumps it together... The people of Herdon have spoken, and are fed up, as are most of the American people... Come November, the American people will speak and the traitors in Washington will be thrown out of office as well!

Posted by: M.T. | May 3, 2006 12:57 PM

James wrote: "This is all well and good; however, we aren't getting the best and brightest from other countries. We are getting the destitute and desperate that drive down income levels by accepting meager wages from wretched companies that hire them."

We are getting less of the best and the brightest engineers and scientists from other countries because it has become so difficult and cumbersome for them to receive work visas.

My partner has been working for eight years to receive his green card, all the while paying taxes, contributing to the local economy (i.e. 'shopping a lot'), and not sending one dime out of the US. Meanwhile, there are workers here illegally who may receive amnesty (and their green cards) before him? How wrong is that?

Know that there are a lot of legal immigrants who do not support the illegal immigrant movement here.

Posted by: ML | May 3, 2006 12:57 PM

wow...this is too emotional for me. you ask why i'm scared? because all i see is HATE in your posts. And i see FEAR on your side of brown people. i bet you think all those mexican gardeners will rape your daughters and eat your children. Idiots!

I'm done with you people. I have work to do, student loans to pay off, a real life to live. oh and CC...let's see...you're white i'm guessing? of course you don't have to be scared! White people are in power...get over yourselves.

frankly, you people are gettin on my last nerves and i'm done wasting my time. posting on this blog will not change anyone's minds. let's all get back to work now. peace out...

Posted by: disgusted | May 3, 2006 12:57 PM

All of us who were blessed enough to have been born in this country need to keep in mind that we "native" citizens did nothing to "earn" our citizenship. Of all the events in our lives, the one over which we have the least personal control is the time and place of our birth. True, at some point, someone in our ancestry came to this country, hopefully legally, but that could have been several hundred years ago by now (over 300 in my case.) So any "earned" initial citizenship by an immigrant ancestor has long since been diluted by generations of fortunate timing and placement.

I'm not in favor of illegal immigration. I just think that we native-born citizens need to avoid being sanctimonious in talking about this issue, as though we are somehow responsible for our own citizenship status and that automatically makes us superior to people who were born elsewhere.

Posted by: Scott | May 3, 2006 12:58 PM


The federal government has abdicated it's responsibility.

However, the federal government will not be "addressing" its responsibility if it passes something like the grotesque McCain Kennedy or Hagel Martinez bills, which will radically EXACERBATE, not ameliorate, the problems of the sort experienced by Herndon.


Local governments would then be compelled to get involved way more than they already are.

Posted by: lance sjogren | May 3, 2006 12:59 PM

The "are" in my first paragraph should read "aren't", as in "we **aren't** getting the best and brightest..."

(Clearly I'm not the best and brightest poster today)

Posted by: ML | May 3, 2006 12:59 PM

to all:

and what is really clear is that it is far easier to skip across the border and find a job picking lettuce for 40x what you would earn 100 miles to the south, than it is to go to college and study 4 years or more to be a scientist or a computer programmer, and then apply for a visa and wait for years and years to get one, or to find an employer who is willing to get an H1 visa for you in some field that Americans would love to work.

These people are ONLY getting here to work in shit jobs that almost no one already here wants to work especially at the salaries offered...or, because they are qualified to do a job that few Americans can do or would do at the salaries offered.

Whichever way they come here.

But one way is legal and also requires a lot of time and hard work, and the other way?

Butt-simple and quick.

Now let me ask you one more time. Why are so many of the poor and ignorant in South America slipping across our border illegally?

Because hundreds of thousands of Americans are offering them what is to them, a lot of money to do it...and, our government is not making it difficult for them to do it, as a result of catering to both the business interests that exploit low-wage immigrant labor, and the business interests in South America that want American money sent to them by illegals.

Right, or wrong?

Is it really so complicated for all to see this?

Financial repatriations to Mexico is the #2 industry in Mexico. Not considering the drug trade. America is almost exclusively a service industry, now. We thrive on abundant, cheap labor. On millions of ants doing what the big bear can't do.

We're becoming the Shanghai of the Northern Hemisphere.

People you are going to have to wake our leaders up the only way they will be woken up. Vote against anyone who supports amnesty for illegals.

Or else you might as well just open the borders.

But before you do that, I'd take a good look at South Africa first. Once it becomes acceptable for the majority to take what it wants from the minority, the minority will have nothing. Not even a house, that they can call their own. The concept of personal property and personal rights will be lost entirely in this country.

If someone...probably a Latino...wants something, they will just take it, and dare you to do anything about it.

Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 1:00 PM

No one has even mentioned the TB and other diseases these illegal invaders bring into the country. And to that other person who claims they no longer feel safe, leave. I'm sure you will be much safer in Mexico.

Posted by: Michael | May 3, 2006 1:02 PM

Mike_DC writes:

"I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation of why we should be so eager to declare the (mostly) Latino immigrants illegal and punish them when, in the past, we have willingly opened the floodgates to white Europeans. To say, as some have said, this is not a racial issue or one of prejudice, is a joke."

Sure, it's racial. Just like the National Council of La Raza is racial -- their name is "The National Council of the Race". Just like the "Brown Power" signs we see at the recent marches are racial, as are the "Stolen Continent" and "Whites go Back to Europe" signs are racial. Just like the Congressional Hispanic Caucus is racial.

As Richard Cohen wrote in the Post yesterday, "the raceless world is a myth."

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:02 PM

...oh, and the #1 industry in Mexico is oil production.

Funny, I thought having a lot of energy reserves was supposed to be good for a countrys' economy?

I guess they don't use a lot of manual labor to pump oil and ship it to the US.

Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 1:02 PM

Fisher wrote in his column:
"We insist on shopping at prices that can only be sustained by using illegal labor. We hire workers with a wink and an averted eye about how they got here and whether they're legal."

Wrong and wrong.
1) People will pay the lowest price. Some companies however try to get that lowest price by hiring illegals at lower wages. That is not he fault of the consumer.
2) Employers who hire illegal workers do not do so with a wink/nod. If the company obeys the law and submits the SS# the employee provides, the SS Administration will inform the employer that the SS# does not match other information the employee provided with that SS#, or the SS# is invalid. So no matter how you look at it, the employer KNOWS they have an illegal as an employee. No wink/nod, deliberate and itself a violation of law.

Herndon's reaction is just the tip of the iceberg. The protests for alien criminals did them in as it will do in any politicians who work to give them amnesty. It woke America up and we are finding people in our collective house we did not invite, refuse to leave, and want half the house. Nothing will make an American madder.

Posted by: Sully | May 3, 2006 1:02 PM


I agree with Scott's comment, illegal immigration should not be posed as a "we are virtuous because we are legal and they are not because they are illegal".

Rather, it is a question of this:

If the United States continues to refuse to enforce its immigration laws, it will cease to be a nation.

And if that happens, it will lead to unspeakable human rights horrors that make the "humanitarian" concerns of today's open borders advocates look like utter trivialities.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 3, 2006 1:03 PM

Orgon,

Virginia repealed red-light cameras, and DC repealed the speeding cameras. Imagine the outrage if cameras were used to catch you each time you broke the law, $50 each day. How about if they change the law where it was no longer a minor crime but one punishable by time in jail? Speeding kills and is barely enforced. Period. You have no argument. Illegal immigration does not kill anyone. And for the poor american citizens who can no longer pick fruits and lettuce, or cut beef, they can either get their GED or go to college. Use their head a bit instead of mailing bricks to senators.

Posted by: Mark | May 3, 2006 1:06 PM

cc writes:

"But before you do that, I'd take a good look at South Africa first. Once it becomes acceptable for the majority to take what it wants from the minority, the minority will have nothing. Not even a house, that they can call their own. The concept of personal property and personal rights will be lost entirely in this country."

It's true. Ethnic majorities everywhere tend to oppress ethnic minorities. Actually, any ethnic group that can get on top will do so -- check out Bolivia, where the Indians have finally organized themselves to kick the Europeans out of power. And what's Morales's first course of action? Take more power from the Europeans, in the form of nationalizing the gas fields.

Folks, the US has extremely enlightened policies towards its minorities compared to the rest of the world. The question is: if the US were to become majority Hispanic, would the same enlightened policies be extended to the white minority? Check out Bolivia and let me know what you think.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:07 PM

To Orgon,

Which war did America win the land from the Indians? Was it the forced removal of Cherokee Indians from their land in Georgia called the Trail of Tears or was it the Louisiana Purchase, which doubled the size of the US, but left a lot of Indians out of luck in regards to their native home. No, you must mean the war where America first enslaved the Indians for cheap labor. No, maybe you are talking about the war, where thousands of Indian women and children were raped and killed by our patriotic Pilgrims. Or the war where again our patriotic colonial Americans knowlingly gave small-pox diseased blankets to Indians to exterminate them.
So, please give me an example of the wars where America fairly won land from the Indians.

Posted by: Learss | May 3, 2006 1:08 PM

Mark,

Speeding kills, but where do you get that it is "barely enforced"? People get speeding tickets all the time.

Again, if you have a real pro-illegal immigration argument, then let's have it. Quit wasting my time with philosophical meanderings about speeding tickets.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:09 PM

I disagree about Minutemen being 'racists'.

The group of illegal immigrants they are guarding against (along the souhern border of the US) happen to be majority, if not entirely, Latino.


Posted by: Jason | May 3, 2006 1:09 PM

Learss,

All of the wars and battles you mentioned, and more. The intentional small-pox blanket thing is a myth, by the way.

Look, we had better weapons than the Indians and we took their land. This onlt seems to bother people when whites do it. How do you think the Aztecs, Maya, and Incas formed their empires? They beat the living snot out of surrounding tribes and either absorbed by force or eliminated them.

Pick 10 countries at random, and in 9 of them, the people living on that land now are not descendants of the original settlers there, but rather descendants of people who exterminated the original settlers.

Read this article, "Massacres Paid Your Mortgage, Dude": http://www.exile.ru/2005-July-01/war_nerd.html

Again, people only seem to have a problem with land taken by force when the color of the skin of the takers is white. Double standard, baby!

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:14 PM

Last time I checked, Los Angeles, San Diego, Las Vegas, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, San Antonio, San Francisco, Montana, Colorado, Florida, etc. all have Spanish names. I guess Spanish was fashonable at some time or the west was originally colonized by the Spanish. Did Texas originally suffer from illegal American immigration? Did the US take the west from Mexico and paid them the equilavent of today's 650 Million dollars. Reminds me of the Dutch buying Manhatan with some Pots and Pans. So, the US robbed Mexico in the first place under a foreign policy called "Manifest Destiny." Who said right-wing religious nuts didn't exist back in the 1800s.

Posted by: Mark | May 3, 2006 1:16 PM

"Somehow it doesn't seem fair to grant privileges of citizenship to people who took it upon themselves to jump past those who are lawfully waiting in line to get into this country."

That pretty much sums up the only relevant issue. Nobody in this debate ever seems to consider the rights of the millions of people who are patiently waiting in line for years and years. They want to study, re-join their family, or otherwise pursue their dreams. Yet they can't get into the country legally, because the quota of visas is so low. And the visa quotas are low because the nation is swamped with illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants effectively steal the visa slots of law abiding applicants. We should secure the borders, and adopt a zero tolerance policy toward illegal immigrants already here. They should be deported and given a visa application to get back in line.

Posted by: John P. | May 3, 2006 1:17 PM

Disgusted,

" i speak perfect english and write very well..."

No,you don't write very well. You do not represent a college educated person at all.

"frankly, you people are gettin on my last nerves and i'm done wasting my time."

There certainly is fine quality education represented in those words!

And what type of reference does "brown" mean? Are you so narrow-minded that you think only Hispanic people are brown?

Posted by: Lyn | May 3, 2006 1:20 PM

"We know that they are the scientists and engineers and inventors and entrepreneurs who keep America at the top of the heap."

I have yet to see any illegal immigrants who fit into those descriptions. Foreign intelligentsia come here for an American education, and often return home afterwards.

Posted by: CJ | May 3, 2006 1:23 PM

Expanding on my earlier point, note that the Incas would have been pleased as punch to sail to Spain and take over all of Iberia; the only thing stopping them was that they lacked the technology to do it.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:27 PM

Orgon,

Everything I mentioned previously were not wars or battles, there were forced removals and exterminations. Maybe you should re-read a history book before you call the Trail of Tears,sanctioned by President Andrew Jackson, a "war" or "battle". So you say the rape and murder of thousands of Indian women and children was a war. Please explain that to me.
Just because massacres has occured numerous times in history doesn't make it right. Additionally, its not a race issue. Since, Europeans colonized many countries, they are criticized first in regards to their past actions. Also, many of the effects of past colonization are still being felt in numerous countries.
In addition, I would not agree to the actions of Mayans, Aztecs, or Incas.

Posted by: Learss | May 3, 2006 1:28 PM

If we don't control illegal immigration now, we will have far worse problems with MS-13 gangs and crime in general. Get them out of here!

Posted by: Worker Bee | May 3, 2006 1:28 PM

Mark,

I wish I had time to read all the previous comments first, but I'll offer mine anyway.

The Post used to have an advertising slogan that, "If you don't get it, you don't get it." Unfortunately, I feel that the Post simply does not get it when it comes to illegal immigration. This issue should be a simple matter of verifying employment eligibility documents (which needs to be computerized these days). Period.

Maybe the limits on immigration from Mexico and other countries south of the border were put in place for a good reason. I've read recently in the Post that an estimated one-third of our young people do not graduate from high school. Adding millions of unskilled immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries (or anywhere else in the world) creates an oversupply of unskilled labor and other problems that come with it. If some people are too cheap to pay a fair wage for services, that's their problem - let them do without.

Posted by: Ross | May 3, 2006 1:30 PM

Dear Disgusted:

Except for the phrase pointed out by Lyn and one or two other minor glitches, your writing is OK.

But do learn to capitalize when you are writing in any setting other than IM or in email to people you know very well. Using lowercase letters to begin sentences in those formats has become conventional, but it's not conventional in other formats.

That approach is especially likely to cause problems for you when you are writing to older people. That's very likely what has set off some of the people who have criticized your writing here.

Posted by: Former Teacher | May 3, 2006 1:32 PM

The backlash against the protests by ILLEGAL immigrants (wanted to make sure the Post understood the ILLEGAL part) is beginning. Americans are fed up with their elected officials and fed up with the liberal Media who promotes the causes of the illegal aliens (ILLEGAL ALIENS, got that, Washington Post?) U.S. Citizens are angry and you will see many changes in the offices of elected officials. Don't forget, Americans, BOYCOTT CINCO DE MAYO - no Tequila, no Mi Cocina, etc...and boycott until our borders are secure!

Posted by: Cathy | May 3, 2006 1:36 PM

Xenophobia is hilarious, yet sad. Is the Hispanic takeover kind of like the homosexual agenda? It's ridiculously arrogant to think that because you were born here, you deserve to be here. If being an American is a privilege, then some of you need to be shipped off to Mexico since you have done little to earn it besides fall out of a geographically fortunate womb. Thank God you people are out in Herndon. I'm sure you will be concerned about the impact of migrant labor on prices when it costs your entire welfare check to purchase cheese puffs and Skoal. I think if America can provide a home for trashy rednecks who want to hunt libruls and force my kid to pray at school, we can find room for Mexicans!

Posted by: Wow | May 3, 2006 1:37 PM

Learss,

I'm not advocating that we take land from people by force, but that's exactly how land was acquired by tribes in the past, and even today. People use politics if they can, and if that fails, they use force, or war.

Europeans were able to colonize continents because they had the technology to do so. Other peoples around the world colonized as well -- they exterminated, raped, killed, and massacred other tribes. They largely remained on their continents only because they weren't able, in most cases, to get to other continents. The idea of American Indians as peace-loving folk is comical PC garbage. Here's a quote from that article I cited upthread:

{{The Crow tribe's country, in Eastern Montana and Wyoming, was still beyond the range of the whites, so the Sioux decided to wipe out the Crow and take their land. The Sioux chief made a speech setting out the strategic goals of primitive warfare with classic simplicity:

"Today when the sun sets, there will be no more Absarokee [Crow] left! We will kill all their warriors and even the old men; we will save their young boys and raise them to become Dakota [Sioux] warriors, and we shall marry their wives and daughters to raise more warriors to fight the whites when they follow us to our new land."}}

The Sioux killed, raped, and took the land of any tribe they could. They'd've been happy to sail to Europe and conquer Europeans; the only reason they didn't is b/c they lacked the technology.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:38 PM

I thought Cruise was sterile.
Oh, darn, wrong board.

Posted by: Just a little levity | May 3, 2006 1:38 PM

In his column titled "...No to Illegal Immigrants," Fisher says "We know that they are the SCIENTISTS and ENGINEERS and INVENTORS and ENTREPENEURS."????? what!? I thought they were the landscapers and drywall hangers and roofers and day laborers. I failed to notice any illegal scientists marching in L.A.

They pay him to write this garbage. LOL

Posted by: Tom Johnson | May 3, 2006 1:39 PM

If there where white illegal people standing at a 7-11 looking for day labor, what would Herndon have done? If there were white people marching for rights to be recognized what would be the tone of this discussion?
It is in our nature to accept like cultures and feel threatened when we witness the unknown.

Posted by: BS | May 3, 2006 1:39 PM

Wow writes:

"It's ridiculously arrogant to think that because you were born here, you deserve to be here."

This is another fallacy you run into from the pro-illegal immigration side.

Of course someone whose parents came here legally deserves to be here: it's not an unearned privilege, it's a privilege my ancestors earned for me. Not for someone else, but for me.

If someone gives me a gift, it's mine. You can't term it "undeserved" because I myself didn't earn it. Someone gave it to me, and therefore it is mine. Q.E.D.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:40 PM

I could have sworn the heading on Marc Fisher's blog says, "In the Privacy of the Booth, No to Illegal Immigrants" Please explain the conspiracy between the "liberal" media and illegal immigrants. There are probably meeting in the same locations where the WMD are located.
The only way to secure our borders is to actually allocate more money to the agencies, like Homeland Security & the Customs, but amazingly under the Bush administration that hasn't happen. I wonder why?
So, how would boycotting Cinco de Mayo change illegal immigration policy?

Posted by: Learss | May 3, 2006 1:45 PM

Herndon voters had it right and should give everyone cause in Northern Virginia to write their Senators and Congressmen, especially Allen (the do nothing Democrat in elephant clothing), and give them a strong reminder of where the American public stands on the issue of ILLEGAL immigration. Illegal immigrants waving Mexican flags and demanding the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens are an outrage. They receive free welfare, free medical and free education and send more money back to back to Mexico and South America than they spend here; none on social security which will be bankrupt by 2010 if you add 20 million to its rosters. As happened in Herndon yesterday, the majority of voting Americans has spoken clearly - Build a Wall, staff the Immigration Agencies with sufficient manpower, arrest company execs who hire the illegals and enforce the laws of the land. The United States of America has sovereign borders and fair reasonable laws that have been violated (think about Mexico's if you don't agree.). Deporting illegal residents is the country's right and only course and will save more money than it costs to continue to support illegals. In the recent Congress.org poll, Americans voted 93% to ignore the demands of illegal lawbreaking immigrants!

Elected officials on Capitol Hill would be well advised to pay close attention to and act appropriately on the unanimous will of the people. Of course, like Allen and Bush, they can choose to ignore the message and join the ranks of Herndon's prior incumbents.

While we're changing the laws, maybe we could reinforce the notion of English as a National Language. You hear the politicians swear that illegal Hispanics have to learn to speak English as a precursor to citizenship while, in the same breath, they tell the FCC to grant more broadcast licenses in Spanish only. It's fair to say that Spanish only broadcasts do not help assimilation. How about telling the FCC to STOP issuing Spanish only broadcast licenses and revoke the ones it has issued. These are the same broadcasts that gave the illegals the message to protest when they HAVE NO RIGHT TO PROTEST! On the other hand, maybe real America should boycott the companies that advertise on those TV and radio stations.

Posted by: Backlash | May 3, 2006 1:46 PM

Does Orgon have a job, or does his employer pay him to type on this blog all day?

Posted by: Fluffy | May 3, 2006 1:46 PM

Disgusted, don't be bothered by a-hats who think that bashing someone's writing skills makes for a valid rebuttal on immigration. How about this for a response:

Dear XXXXX

Thank you for your comments on my writing skills. It really added to the discussion, because if you had commented on my actual posting it would have been boring and reasonable. In the spirit or irrelevancy, I would like to comment on your posting. Your children are semi-literate and unattractive, and they would be lucky to get an illegal to marry them for a green card.

Enjoy your wall!

Posted by: oooh, you can't write | May 3, 2006 1:50 PM

Fluffy,

I do have a job! Though I'm not getting much done today...

Learss, the headline was changed after people on this thread complained. It used to say "Immigrants," not "Illegal Immigrants".

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:50 PM

oooh,

Disgusted was the one bragging that she wrote "very well" and went to a "presitigious university" etc. If that's true, I think it's pretty clear that she was an affirmative action admission.

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 1:52 PM

Hey left wing Fisher so your trying to tell us that the illegals drinking beer and harrassing schoolgirls, and peeing on the street corners are scientists, engineers, and inventors. You bleeding hearts are hilarious!

Posted by: Independent Voter | May 3, 2006 1:55 PM

For Backlash,
Here is a quote for a NY Times article Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
in April 7, 2005:

"As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year. "

By the way, Bush is not an incumbent, he's a lame-duck president.

Posted by: Procrastinator` | May 3, 2006 1:58 PM

"It's ridiculously arrogant to think that because you were born here, you deserve to be here."

Who knows about deserving to, but I certainly have the legal right to. Whereas those who sneak across the border or overstay a visa don't. Simple as that.

Accommodating illegal immigrants is fundamentally unjust to those who attempt to enter the country legally, and to those who are asked to foot the bill.

And ridicule us as Bible-thumping chaw chewin' rednecks, but I for one always vote Democrat (up until now), am an agnostic computer professional, married to a Korean with legal residency (who is also vehemently against illegal immigrants).

Posted by: Charles | May 3, 2006 1:59 PM

You're no scientists.

Posted by: raw fissure | May 3, 2006 1:59 PM

A head of lettuce would increase just slightly. But our trade deficit would increase greatly since our food will be imported from abroad such as the head of lettuce. Therefore, your trips to europe will cost more because of the devaluation in the dollar.

Devaluation in dollar help exports? Everything is made in China and the currency is pegged to the dollar, so I doubt that.

Posted by: Mark | May 3, 2006 2:00 PM

What will boycotting Cinqo de Mayo accomplish? I'll tell you. It's a protest against the cultural invasion. Cinqo de Mayo may strike many people as just another excuse to get drunk, but it's really more than that. It's another small but significant expression of the refusal of hispanics to assimilate.

I'll drink to the Alamo, thank you.

Posted by: boycott Cinqo de Mayo | May 3, 2006 2:01 PM

Marc,

Way to leave out the word "illegal" and give all these racist neanderthals an actual valid point on which to hang their repugnant hats.

To all you xenophobic jerks spewing a bunch of crap about "hispanic takeovers" and burning Mexican flags, whose descriptions of illegal immigrants ooze with condescension and racism, and who tell a legal, American-born latina how to become a "real American": you people are reprehensible, and clearly don't share my vision of "American values" any more than a Spanish speaking illegal immigrant might...and spewing racist garbage and then saying "I'm not racist" doesn't get you off the hook.

I happen to agree that illegal immigration is a huge problem, but the more I feel myself becoming aligned with you semi-literate bigots, the more I'm inclined to support illegal immigrants' efforts to stay here--especially if it will put your elephant-imprinted tighty-whities in a bind.

This thread is disgusting, and many of you people make me ashamed to be human, let alone American. Realism is one thing, but uncompassionate, hateful, nationalistic xenophobia is another thing entirely.

Posted by: oogliemooglie | May 3, 2006 2:04 PM

Fischer claims people are conflicted because they oppose illegal immigration while behaving "in ways that depend on illegal immigrants' work. We insist on shopping at prices that can only be sustained by using illegal labor. We hire workers with a wink and an averted eye about how they got here and whether they're legal."

People are not conflicted, they are ignorant and delusional. In order to reduce labor prices through illegal immigration, people must also pay all the ancillary costs of illegal immigration including medical care (frequently obtained in emergency rooms), education at $10,000 or so per year per student, and incarceration for those guilty of crimes (including gang violence). These costs are real and cannot be ignored simply because people pay for them indirectly rather than directly!

Posted by: Avanti | May 3, 2006 2:05 PM

Now that I've had time to calm down, I'll make one last point. Sorry for the bad writing but sometimes my emotions get the best of me and I write without double-checking my grammar. Yes, I have been writing in IM-speak so sorry to the older folks who don't understand my (very obviously) impassioned and sometimes grammatically incorrect thoughts.

But all that aside, I'd just like to say that (myself included), I wish we could have a rational discussion about this. Immigration...legal or illegal, documented or undocumented, is an extremely complicated issue that goes above every one of our heads. I obviously cannot claim to be very cool-headed about this but that's because I see how it affects my friends and neighbors and I see the everyday, human side of it.

I see how my neighbors go to work, come home, bbq on the weekends, mow their lawns, play with their kids and send them to school. I go to my local church and see them fill the pews to hear the word of God and gain some comfort because they are in a new country and don't always understand our customs and language even though they try. My mother taught an English course at our church and it was filled to capacity because they were so eager to learn. Unfortunately many of them are uneducated and that is a result of the poor conditions of their countries (which, by the way, we've helped to perpetuate).

I've also seen the seedy side of it. They live in my neighborhood and have for quite some time. I've been stalked and harassed by many of these men who have lived near me ever since I was 12 (I'm 24 now). I frankly don't like a lot of them. It's a big contradiction that I should want them to stay when a lot of these guys are uneducated and harass me beyond belief, right? Of course I get frustrated and of course I don't like it.

I'm not saying that we have to have completely open borders, but building a wall will not help. It shouldn't have to be one extreme or the other. We can have a middle ground but we need to have a rational discussion and come up with realistic ways to fix our immigration laws. I can understand (although not like) a lot of these points of view. I think that we are all scared at some level but that's because we are not sure what will happen in the future. The biggest reason I get angry about this debate is because no one side is completely right and I feel that we are not trying to understand each other at all. We're just yelling and not listening.

Anyway, I wish I had the perfect answer, but I don't and I don't think anyone on this blog does either. It's been fun...

Posted by: disgusted | May 3, 2006 2:06 PM

"And the visa quotas are low because the nation is swamped with illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants effectively steal the visa slots of law abiding applicants. We should secure the borders, and adopt a zero tolerance policy toward illegal immigrants already here. They should be deported and given a visa application to get back in line."

Me thinks you have this backwards. We're swamped because of the low quotas. Also ask yourself what those quotas might be based on. Perhaps race/ethnicity? There was a slew of east Europeans after the cold war who entered the US. Any illegal or relaxed quotas? In either case, no problem. We only perceive this as a big problem now because we are beyond the comfort zone of minorities of color for the whites of about 10%.

Posted by: illegalogics | May 3, 2006 2:08 PM

The only reason you don't want America to build a wall is because it will be effective. And you know this.

Posted by: henry | May 3, 2006 2:10 PM

Are you going to help build this magnificent wall on the US-Mexico border, Henry? Also don't forget about the US- Canada border, isn't that twice as long?
Walls sure are effective, look at the Berlin Wall.

Posted by: Procrastinator | May 3, 2006 2:15 PM

The Berlin Wall was effective until they tore it down. Man, you are an idiot.

Face the facts: hispanics want to take over America.

Posted by: henry | May 3, 2006 2:17 PM

Dear Disgusted,

Who wrote your last post? By the way, it sounds like your actually afraid of your OWN people. You came here. You received an education. Now, go back to your native country and help to improve that country so all these illegals stay there.

Posted by: Lyn, | May 3, 2006 2:23 PM

I keep seeing references to the title, but it does specify "illegal immigrants." I wonder if that was done in response to the comments or if that was always the tile.

I don't quite know what to do about illegal immigrants, but I definitely do not think they should ever be allowed to be citizens. Ever. It is a slap in the face fo all the decent people that did things the right way.

It's the same as me sneaking into an amusement park and being allowed to stay because the park owners don't want to pay someone to look for me and carry me out. Oh and throw in a free hotdog with it too. Sorry to all you folks that paid the entrance fee. Oh, and you have to buy your own hotdogs, even though your fee financed the free hotdog I got.

I think we need to go after the companies that hire illegals and stop allowing illegals access to social services, although that seems so simple to me that it must not be as simple as it seems. If the jobs and welfare weren't available to illegals, why would they still come?

Posted by: Constance | May 3, 2006 2:24 PM

Henry,
No, I think you are the slow and ignorant one. The Berlin Wall was torn down which is precisely my point.
You can still climb over a wall. When impoverished people are determined for a better life, they will stop at nothing to achieve that goal. That is why many illegal immigrants trek through 100+ degree deserts, sail in flimsy boats, travel in cargo holds of ships to have a chance at a better opportunity.
Where are seeing Hispanics taking over America? No, I think you are scared that one day you won't be in the majority anymore. Get over your ignorance and xenophobia.

Posted by: Procrastinator | May 3, 2006 2:26 PM

Lyn,

"Disgusted" was born here, or did you not have time to read her first post.
How dare you tell her to go back to her native country? Who do you think you are? I know your ancestors weren't natives to this country and probably immigrated over to US themselves.
Take your self-righteous and ignorant attitude somewhere else.

Posted by: Procrastinator | May 3, 2006 2:30 PM

Just wanted to add to all of these posts... the illegal immigrant workers in Herndon are just the tip of the iceberg. In speaking with a friend from Arizona, he told me that there is a group called something like the "Coalition of Illegal Immigrants". And YES!!! they use the work illegal in their title. This group hired lawyers and sued the county because there was no protection from the heat for the illegal immigrants standing around looking for jobs....they won. Then they sued the state...and won. Guess what there is now, scattered all through the desert? Blue beacons with fresh food and fresh water... so that the illegal immigrants breaking the law and sneaking across the borders wont die in the desert. My thought is to that...each one of those beacons should have a spray canister of the same dye that the banks use in the ink packs for when money is stolen. We use it to mark criminals from bank robberies...why not these criminals b/c plain and simple...that is what they are. Stop insulting the immigrants who have filled out paperwork and waited years to become legal members of this society.
Being in the healthcare industry, its a bit ridiculous to be told I need to learn spanish to communicate with my patients. And no, Im not talking about emergencies, Im not that harsh. What I am talking about is the routine scheduled patients that come in for care at my hospital. I cant provide the best care for these patients because I cant get a clear medical history, explain the exam Im going to perform, or tell them how they can get their results. More than half of the hispanic patients I see bring NO interpreter with them, so how can they legally sign the HIPAA form? How can they consent to an exam that they dont understand? I guess what Im saying as far as that...be realistic, make accomodations, and let me do my job and take care of you as best I can...ok?

Posted by: VR | May 3, 2006 2:34 PM

People like stegman are the kind of people that corrupt society, their hearts of made of flint. What do you get out of burning someones flag? Apply that energy to a better cause.

I am a citizen of this country, and I want the best for this country. Why is it difficult for people to connect the dots? The most prosperous cities in the United States are those where the majority of immigrants are located. This is where you have the beverly hills, the bluemonts, the mcleans. Take a drive out to West Virginia where there are almost no immigrants working in construction mostly whites working 9 to 5 and you will see the future of america without immigrants. It takes about ten years to have a simple bridge built. Compare for yourself, ask yourself why aren't these states as prosperous?, it is obvious. The United States would come to a screeching halt without immigrants. How would it compete with the world?

Take a moderate approach to this issue. Try to find the best solution to the problem. Anger never fixes anything. Reason and logic based on compassion for other humans is the way to success. Alot of people are at fault for this problem. Both sides created it.

Posted by: herndon | May 3, 2006 2:35 PM

In his post of May 3, 2006 09:41 AM, Mark says:

"As christian, Jew, Arab, or any other religion, how do you expect to be in union with "God" and a part of the holy "church" when we divide and descrimate (sic) against other human souls based on arbitrary national borders."

and

"Lines can be redrawn or wiped away entirely. They are human, spiritual beings much like yourself. So why do you wish to push them away, make them suffer, distroy (sic) their aspirations for a future life. Because of a line in the sand."

I recommend Mark ignore those "arbitrary national borders" and "lines in the sand" and move to Mexico where he can help alleviate the suffering of so many fellow humans. Why limit your compassion to only human, spiritual beings that are in the United States illegally?

Use your freedoms and respect for all humans to show us your compassion by example, Mark. Show us you are willing to sacrifice for your beliefs instead of foisting those beliefs on others.

Posted by: Avanti | May 3, 2006 2:36 PM

OK, so we deport all the illegals and their American-born children? What happens when those kids grow up & return -- legally, remember, with their American birth certificates -- at the age of 20, but with the same lack of education and skills as their deported parents?

Or do we throw out Mom & Dad and put the AmCit kids in foster care in the US?

We are not going to get anywhere with immigration issues until we acknowledge the fact that many illegal immigrants are the parents of American-born American citizens. Assimilation of such people NOW should be our goal -- or we (and our children) may see civil war in a couple of decades.

Posted by: beltway insider | May 3, 2006 2:38 PM

Thirteen percent of registered Herndon voters expressed their dissatisfaction with the status quo. This is not a landslide.

Posted by: Herndon Voter | May 3, 2006 2:39 PM

To Procrastinator - I agree - Bush is lame and acts like a duck out of water! Hence, a lame duck. Not only has he betrayed his core constituents, he abandoned his pledge to protect and serve the LEGAL public. Instead of sending the National Guard to defend the Mexican border from further invasions while building a wall, which he should have done on Sept 12 2001, he now offers us a Kennedy-esque amnesty bill, a porous virtual excuse for a wall and the same old BS of "Americans won't work." I guess he thinks looking for mythical WMDs in Iraq is more important than defending our national borders. And Allen? He voted to close further debate on immigration and vote for the Kennedy plan unlike his Northern VA Republican counterparts in the Seante and House.

Pandering to big business and illegal immigrants doesn't go very far in my book when they ignore the unanimous outcry of all voters. One hundred years ago, this would have been deemed an invasion. It's time to treat it as such. The Great Wall of China lasted a thousand years and worked superbly.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 3, 2006 2:43 PM

My two cents: I strongly support real borders, but beating up on "Disgusted" doesn't advance the cause. There will be pain if real enforcement of immigration laws ever happens, but the pain would be much less if the government had being doing its job in the first place.

Posted by: BloggerMcBloggie | May 3, 2006 2:47 PM

Procrastinator,

Who were my ancestors? You tell me who my ancestors were and then, only then, can you make the statement that " I know your ancestors weren't natives to this country and probably immigrated over to US themselves." You don't know. You are ASSuming! Since you have so much love for the Mexicans, why don't you move your illegal-hugging self to Mexico to help them improve their living conditions? See ya!!

Posted by: Lyn | May 3, 2006 2:52 PM

You shouldn't throw gasoline on burning house you are trying to save. Mexicans that display thier flags and those with Che posters are doing a disservice to themselves and to thier cause. Instead of unifying you are dividing those who are legal that would support you.

There is a middle path to solve this situation. We should gather all the best minds in different areas of knowledge to bring a plan as to what could be done. People who complain about illegals are usually the employee type. People who don't complain are the employer type. Both benefit from the hard labor of these people.

The illegals should also strive to become educated to learn english, to quell the gangs in their midst. The illegals should show the americans that they are grateful to be in this country by acting like a citizen even without being one. Illegals should do all in thier power to assimilate if they want to become Americans.

Posted by: herndon | May 3, 2006 2:54 PM

Welel qualified Scientists? Engineers? Not hardly. Of the foreign nationals we have at our agency, the Hispanics are basiclly the only ones that needs to be taught. Asians, Middle Eastern Indians, and Africans are already educated when they get here.

Posted by: SLM | May 3, 2006 2:57 PM

Well qualified, not wlel.....

Time to go home..........

Posted by: SLM | May 3, 2006 2:58 PM

"Pandering to big business and illegal immigrants doesn't go very far in my book when they ignore the unanimous outcry of all voters."


To whomever posted the statement above, your "outcry" is far from unanimous.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 3:02 PM

Lyn,
No, I do know your ancestors aren't from here, but no one, not even Native Americans are native to this country. Only difference between us and Native Americans is that they immigrated here first.
Actually I have been to Mexico to help improve living conditions, but I decided I wanted to attend medical school in the US.

Posted by: Procrastinator | May 3, 2006 3:04 PM

"Assimilation of such people NOW should be our goal"

Please keep in mind that for the MeCha and La Razas of the world, assimilation is a dirty world. They INSIST on maintain their language "cultural identity" and so forth. Anything else would be selling out to the gringos. Deport them all and build a wall.

Posted by: Deport them all | May 3, 2006 3:12 PM

Truth speaks the truth. The question is: will whites let it happen?

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 3:15 PM

Jose has threatened to riot if he doesn't get what he wants. Do we really want to import more Joses? Build that wall.

As for the Mexican Army, Jose -- let's see. Mexico spent $2 billion on its military last year and the US spent over $500 billion. Bring it on, hombre!

Posted by: Orgon | May 3, 2006 3:17 PM

After reading most of these post I don't think that illegal immigrants sneaking across the border to work is a problem for Americans. I think we are scared of change.

I say this because all of the other migrations to America were somewhat controlled by the this country. We chose who and how many can come over to work, and help build this country. Some were met with open arms others were kidnapped and forced to come over. Regardless of how we arrived here it was still controlled by America. That control can last for generations. Just look at how we live now. Whites on top, blacks on the bottom. Or for those tired of race. You have rich on top and poor at the bottom. I look at race and economics as one sometimes. Thats just my view.

So soon the ethnic majority of this country will change, and people see this as a problem. I see it as their fear, because soon they will become the minority. Thier brians can't even fathom that picture. I'm a minority so I'm kind of ready for change.

Posted by: J | May 3, 2006 3:18 PM

Uh, "J," I'm guessing you went to college in the 90s, or perhaps even this decade, to be so deluded.

Posted by: Deport them all | May 3, 2006 3:20 PM

All of YOU!!!

Posted by: Idiots | May 3, 2006 3:25 PM

Orgon what do you mean "let", Im sorry to inform you but the choice is not up to white America. They're S.O.L on this one

sorry

Posted by: J | May 3, 2006 3:25 PM

Of the estimated 12 million workers, 6 million are using false SSNs to gain employment. This issue of the day-laborer center doesn't touch the true crimes of the illegals. Illegal immigration is the "gateway drug" of crime for these people: from drug muleing to prostitution to fraud to identity theft. Millions of Americans, including some who are just children now, will soon wake up to the surprise of having their credit histories ruined because US corporation encourage and support the document fraud that give illegals legitimate jobs. The crimes abound. Herndon's revolt is just the beginning. As the truth comes out about the illegal problem, the polls in November will show a very different America

Posted by: Marc | May 3, 2006 3:26 PM

We are all illegal

---===--- ---==|=--

Posted by: ---===--- ---==|=--- | May 3, 2006 3:30 PM

To Avanti and others:

I guess I can say you not all spiritual people. If you were, then why don't you at least help the least benefit who come nocking on the door. I not asking you to be saints, and go to distant lands to help others. But, you can't even put up a little house where they can seek work, get educational skills by volunteers so they can co-exist here, and can't be a little more friendly to them.

My question: would Jesus shun the illegals? I bet he would shun you, because you are acting no differently than the orthodox jews who killed him.

Now, whose side are you on: Jesus or the Devils? I see little compasion in your arguments, so I guess the latter.

Posted by: Mark | May 3, 2006 3:32 PM

Jose, I have never owned a gun in my life, but thanks to your comments and other threats that I've read from Hispanics in these chats. I'll certainly buy one now.

Posted by: WB | May 3, 2006 3:33 PM

Those of you who are concerned about the vast sums of public money expended on illegals might want to check out the article at this link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12599439/site/newsweek/

In it, a highly qualified economist argues that it just ain't so. The net economic effect of illegal immigration is slightly positive. Here's a sample of what he has to say:

Q: How would you assess the overall importance of undocumented workers to the U.S. economy?

A: Immigration [documented and undocumented] brings in about $10 billion a year more income for the native born. All immigrants are about 15 percent of the labor force, and illegal immigrants are about 5 percent. So it's a positive effect--an important effect--but relative to a $10 trillion economy, it's not driving the economy by any means.

And here's a comment that illustrates what I said about the differential impact of costs and benefits of illegal immigration. The costs are borne by a set of citizens where illegals settle. The benefits are more diffuse, because they are distributed throughout the economy. For instance, the price of strawberries in South Dakota is affected by the presence of undocumented farm workers in California, but only the taxpayers in California pay to educate the children of those workers. If that's the case, the burden of immigration can be alleviated through tax policy, which makes more economic sense than trying to shut down the border or ship people back to Guatemala.

Q: But would it benefit consumers in any way--like a decrease in taxes?

A: At the federal level, [undocumented immigrants] turn out to be a net-positive benefit because immigrants are young and the federal government is spending money on programs for the elderly, like Medicare and Social Security. At the state and local level they tend to be a tax burden, not because of welfare and not because of health, but because of education. In California, we estimated that the native-born households were paying about $1,200 more in taxes than they received in benefits in order to pay for immigrants.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 3:43 PM

Posted by Orgon: "Truth speaks the truth. The question is: will whites let it happen?"

Thanks for showing your true colors, Orgon. This isn't about immigration to you at all, is it? If it was you wouldn't phrase the debate in terms of "whites" vs. brown.

Racist attitudes like yours are an embarrassment to our great nation, and if "letting it happen" means bigots like yourself become margianilized, we can't let the future happen soon enough!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 3, 2006 3:44 PM

Why do people always sedate themselves with the opium of pride. The color of your skin doesn't preclude you from rising or falling. History has shown this - the muslims where at one point the teachers of the world in regards to science, literature, and philosophy where are they now. The Romans, Babylonians, Britains where at one point centers of prosperity where are they now. The mayans and egyptians where all great and marvelous civilizations when europe was in total darkness in regards to science, learning, and engenuity. Societies rise and fall. But having the capacity to see our past and having the faculty to reason why should we repeat our history - the history of humankind.

The united states is the greatest and most awesome nation on this earth. Everyday I thank God that I am here, right now living under a constititution that protects my freedom. That is why this nation is great, because all mankind under it's protection can pursue hapinnes.

There are so many citizens in this country that are repeating the past by making enemies and not allies. It's not only important to say the truth but to say it in love. Do not mix racism or hate into applying the law of this land. Keep your cool.

Most if not all the citizens today are not half of what the founding fathers where. Lets solve these issues as people who feel, reason, and act, not as beasts.

Posted by: herndon | May 3, 2006 3:53 PM

Jose,

When I want hilarity, I'll read Yahoo! message boards. Take your trolling there.

Posted by: Hose B | May 3, 2006 3:56 PM

Jose,

What are you doing in this chat? I'm going to spank you.

Your daDDY

Posted by: Jose's Daddy | May 3, 2006 3:56 PM

Deport them all:

Maybe I am deluded, but I'm guessing that Fredrick douglass,Malcoim X, and MLK were called delusional also. I'm a proactive kind of guy. I see the big picture.

I'm not even concerned with Little Herndon and it's 20,000 residents. Thats nothing to me, the way things are going now, there will be 10,000 immigrants in herndon by 2012. Some will be legal, others won't. But Herndon won't be the same I can say that for sure. Thats the same for all of the "Herndons" across America.

Posted by: J | May 3, 2006 3:56 PM

Here are two more comments, from a recent article in today's Wall Street Journal. The Journal site requires a subscription, so I can't link to it, but here are the comments.

On assimilation:
The impact of immigration on American culture is not determined by what immigrants do, but by what their children and grandchildren do. Here the evidence is unambiguous: The children and grandchildren of Mexican immigrants assimilate and move up the income ladder. Meticulous research by James Smith at Rand demonstrates that second- and third-generation Mexican-Americans quickly overcome the educational deficit faced by their immigrant parents and grandparents. As a result, they do not constitute a permanent economic underclass; they have been steadily narrowing the income gap with native-born whites. Nor do they constitute a social and cultural group independent of mainstream America. The reason is clear: 80% of third-generation Mexican-Americans cannot speak Spanish. Score one for the soft-liners on immigration.


On the effects of immigration on the Mexican economy and, hence, on political stability in our neighborhood:
Both sides in the immigration debate have it wrong, however, when it comes to one core assumption -- that Mexican immigration is only a domestic policy issue. What we choose to do will have serious ramifications for Mexico.

To understand why, we need to take into account that the large-scale immigration of Mexicans to the U.S. is a recent phenomenon. Until the 1980s, Mexicans migrated to the U.S. at very modest rates -- on the order of 50,000 people per year. In the 1980s it surged to roughly 200,000 people per year, and in the 1990s it went through the roof, averaging 500,000 people per year. The reason is that the Mexican economy collapsed in the early 1980s, and since then Mexico's per capita GDP, adjusted for inflation, has grown at a staggeringly slow 0.7% per year, less than one-third the U.S. rate.

There is little reason to think that the Mexican economy will recover any time soon. Indeed, all of the fundamentals, most particularly the preference of foreign multinational companies to site new facilities in China instead of in Mexico, point toward continued slow growth.

What would happen to Mexico if we were to suddenly cut off the escape valve provided by immigration to the U.S.? Unemployment and underemployment, already major problems, would increase dramatically. Remissions from immigrants, which total some $18 billion per year and are the lifeblood of many rural communities, would dry up. The widespread frustration felt by the population caught between rising crime and diminished economic expectations -- which fuels the populist presidential campaign of Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador -- would almost certainly become more acute. There is no scenario in which these developments would be positive for Mexican political and social stability. And there is no scenario in which a politically and socially unstable Mexico is in the interest of the U.S.

Posted by: THS | May 3, 2006 3:56 PM

I believe (I certainly hope) that Jose is a purposeful cariacture. On the off chance he isn't - bring it on, Amigo. We'll treat yours like you treat the Guatemalans and see how long your invasion lasts.

Posted by: Deport them all | May 3, 2006 4:06 PM

Congratulations Lam on the well written piece to President Bush about the treatment you expect when you cross illegally into Mexico.

I know that the President of Bolivia is controversial, but at least he has the smarts to act in the best interest of his country and his people. By demanding that resources from his country should be nationalized, and most of the profits going to the people of his country, he will help more of his citizens to live a better quality of life, with fewer of them emigrating to seek better lives elsewhere.

Too bad Vincente Fox can't do anything so bold.

I suggest the Latinos who are upset about conditions here in America, instead take their anger to their own countries and demand better services and quality of life.

If Latinos cannot improve the quality of life in their homelands, then the US should take over their countries. Then everyone would become a US citizen and the educated and hardworking people of America will fix the problems that the Latino people can't (or won't) fix themselves.

If Latinos want to endear themselves to Americans and other immigrant groups: learn English, quit having babies that you can't afford to support, quit making yourself at home on people's properties and using the outdoors as if it were your personal restrooms, build a social hall where you can hang out instead hanging out at the 7-11s, practice personal hygiene, etc.

Posted by: Austrian | May 3, 2006 4:06 PM

I agree with oogmoog

Posted by: J | May 3, 2006 4:17 PM

...looks like there's a little "vitriol" on both sides.

Look...to all the Latinos, "xenophobes", and Jesus-lovers here, there's a simple solution.

Nobody is saying that current immigration law is wrong, yes?

So just enforce the law.

It's for our own protection. All of us. Even those who live in foreign lands.

Anyone with any common sense should be able to see that if you want to build a better life for yourself, wherever you wish to build it, it is better to do it legally than illegally. And if you want to help people, the best place to start is to help them to help themselves. And of course, to help themselves legally. Don't help them to break the law, even for their own survival.

And economically they are making less than they would make for the same work if they were legal. Sure, they are making more than they would make if they did the same work in Guatemala, but getting paid $7/hr here for work that is really worth $14/hr here vs the $0.50/hr it is worth in Guatemala, is still putting $7/hr in the pockets of employers who are illegally hiring these illegal aliens and still cheating the illegals of $6.50/hr. They are still getting screwed for the work they are doing. And not just because they are illegal, but also because there are so many illegals they can hire to take the place of an illegal. Then they are flushing their earnings down the toilet paying rent and supporting their families in South America. Sure, they keep their foreign families in a relativey-good lifestyle, but they are doing all the work and not benefitting from the money they have sent home.

Sure, it may be better than living in Guatemala, but it isn't nearly as good as it should be for them, for any American doing the same job, and, it never will be, as long as they are illegal.

And no one should be able to blatantly and continuously violate American law and be rewarded with American citizenship or even the very same right to work legally, that they are working without, day after day. That makes a mockery of the very same legal system that enables them to earn a better living here.

The illegals and those who support them are on the wrong side of this issue. Legally, morally and economically. Argue for the law to be changed, for the quotas, whatever, to be changed. But until they are changed...obey them. And don't expect to be granted amnesty for past and current law-breaking.

And that will go a long way to resolving this issue. Not breaking the law, not showing a callous, even "righteous" disregard for the law, at the same time you want the protection and benefit of the legal system...that will go a long way towards solving the problem.


Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 4:18 PM

3rd generation Mexican unable to speak fluent Spanish. That would have to be 1980 at earliest for the 1st generation immigrant.

Between 1980 and 2006, there has been a shift in industry and government policies to accomodate for non-English speakers. I wonder how that affects the third generation Mexican born today where you can easily navigate without speaking a word of English. How will this affect assimiliation?

11% of all Hispanics in year 2000 Census had a college bachelor level education. Somehow I don't think this education rate bodes well for the theory that a majority of 2nd generation Mexicans are no longer part of the underclass given the intellectual economy. For comparison, 18% for blacks, 28% for whites, and 44% for asians have a college level education.

I believe that over the long term that assimiliation of a regulated flow of immigrants is good for the US.

I don't believe a constant mass migration of uneducated unskilled labor is good. Think of it this way. The first 1st million gets the cheap jobs and begins to develop a life. They get fired when the 2nd million steals their jobs since they are willing to take lower wages. So how does the 1st million maintain the job required to build a life needed for their children to get through school? What happens when the economy goes into a recession and the construction boom dies off? What happens to all the now unemployed unskilled labor?

I like the Wall Street journal, but I think a lot of their slant is always pro-business.

As for riots and unrest in Mexico, I think it will be good for the country. THEY NEED TO CHANGE!!! The endemic corruption and inept government will never change as long as we are the easy outlet.

Posted by: PTT | May 3, 2006 4:32 PM

Everyone seems to agree that, at least in the abstract, obeying the law is a good thing. Well, in the current illegal immigration problem, there are two parties violating the law.
First, obviously, are the people who illegally enter the country.
Then, there are the employers who hire the illegal immigrants.
Many illegal immigration advocates argue that placing a physical wall on the border will do nothing because people will find ways to get around it, in order for better lives and better jobs. While I do not know whether that's true or not, let's accept it as true for the sake of argument.
In that situation then, the solution to this issue is clear. As some have stated, "it's simply about supply and demand." If the "demand" for jobs cannot be reduced, then simply reduce the supply - i.e. strictly enforce laws (currently on the books) that punish employers who hire illegal immigrants. Under this approach, new laws (and therefore, congressional action) isn't even required. As simple as it sounds, all we need is to enforce the laws we currently have. By drying up the supply of jobs, the illegal immigration will stop.
As a postscript, I do not have much sympathy with corporations who complain that they cannot survive without cheap, illegal labor. These are the same entities that shun any type of governmental regulation (consumer protection, environmental, etc.) by arguing that "the maket will adjust itself." Well, let the market adjust to them having to hire people who are legal.
Lastly, even considering the data used by pro-illegal immigrants, deporting all 11 or 12 million of them (which I'm not an advocate of) won't result in $8 heads of lettuce.
That's just a scare tactic, much like the talk of an "invasion" from south of the border.

Posted by: moderate | May 3, 2006 4:36 PM

The following letter is from an American who lived and worked in Mexico for five years. I received it via email. I have deleted the names and the company reference for obvious reasons. It is very interesting, although somewhat long.
Hello

You remember I spent five years working in Mexico.

I worked under a tourist Visa for three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that you were working Illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval

During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the same except hers did not permit her to work.

To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals (not copies) of my:

1. Birth certificate for Barbara and I.

2. Marriage certificate.

3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.

4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of graduation.

5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at least one year.

6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indication I had no arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good standing."

7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why there was no Mexican Citizen with my skills and why my skills were important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on Earth" letter. It was fun to write.

All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the right.

Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied by a Mexican Attorney touring Mexican Government office locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location and we remember at least four locations we instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the Governments actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Loredo Texas. This meant we has rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.

We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and under contract and compliance with Mexican law.

We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing process. The company arranged for the Licensing agency to come to our Headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay ransom to get it back.

We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. I was about twenty legal size pages annually.

The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying more fees.

Leaving the country meant turning in the FM# and certifying we were leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs.

It was a real adventure and If any of our Senators or Congressman went through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico.

The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White house or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and during most protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy. These protests are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park across the street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.

Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being hard on illegal immigrants
XXX


Reply

Posted by: maizie | May 3, 2006 4:36 PM

JOSE, te voy a dar un beso muy grande! MUAH! Feliz Cinco de Mayo compadre. Esta gente no sabe nada! Ellos son unos hijos de puta!

SI SE PUEDE!


(Damn right i'm doing it in Spanish just to piss you people off! HA!)

this is getting fun now...bring it on! let's devolve more! how low can you go you ignorant, hateful gringos??? (laughing my ass off at you people)

Posted by: I heart JOSE | May 3, 2006 4:56 PM

I Live in Fairfax!

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR MY TAX DOLLARS TO BE GOING TO A CTR SUCH AS MD CASA OR THE DAY LABORER CENTER!

For all of you who sympathize, take your money and fund the center. I can't believe the CASA place is aiding ILLEGAL aliens with the countys tax money. That money should be funneled into our schools, streets, local businesses and so on. It could be used for scholarships for our students or other purposes.

They are not starving in Mexico, they don't have to flee.

Posted by: Alicia | May 3, 2006 5:50 PM

I have a question- what inventions have been created by hispanics? I really don't know that they have invented anything... am I wrong?

As far as I can tell, the only thing hispanics create is overpopulation.

Posted by: claire | May 3, 2006 5:55 PM

observations:

a) I'd bet that most Mexicans can't speak fluent Spanish either.

b) it is, I think, still an open question, about the effect on the economy of a 25-50% increase in the number of people in this country...with most of them living below the poverty line. Certainly it will mean a lot more people for the rich to sell goods and services to...

also clearly the rate of influx is significant...if they come in too fast, most of these people will not have a chance for an education simply because the education system cannot handle them.

We have to regulate the influx. It's that simple.

c) to say that people will find a way around a wall, yes, obviously they will. One is by entering the US legally.

It is not like you cannot come into this country legally.

It is not like the immigration system is "broken" in the sense that it does not allow anyone to come in legally.

If anything, it is "broken" only in the sense that it takes an excessive amount of time for someone to come in, who is qualified.

But that is o.k. because they do not NEED to be here, right?

They can just sit and wait in their home countries, can't they?

Or...are they so desperate that they cannot make a decent living in their own country? If so then we have a very special problem and that, I submit, is half of the problem here. There *IS* a lot of pressure for South Americans to come to the US.

But part of that is because, as someone recently pointed out, we do not rob, kill and rape foreigners in this country, as a standard practice.

But they do in other countries in South America, yes?

And, I suggest, that it is worth it, to make sure that none of the people who are doing the robbing, raping and killing, or drug-smuggling, are getting into the US to "find their success story" here.

I think that trumps any argument for giving illegals US citizenship or even residence.

I for one know that if I had killed someone in Mexico, say, and I was wanted by the Mexican police for murder, I would rather live peacefully and quietly in the US than be deported back to Mexico to stand trial. If I had not already been convicted in absentia. You just gotta admit that if 20 million people have snuck in here from South America, a few hundred thousand, at least, were violent criminals in their home country. And the rest, a good percentage of *them* were nonviolent criminals.

So maybe 25%? Half?

would never be accepted for immigration or even a visa, even IF the visa quotas were high enough and they did not have to wait for legal immigrant status.

A fairly large percentage of these people will not qualify for immigration, under *ANY* amnesty progam.

...but that is if we find out the truth about them.

And how are we going to find out the truth about people from some 3rd-world country? They might as well be ghosts. Are we going to call up the Bolivian government, say, and ask for the criminal records for every Tomas, Diego and Jorge that comes out of Boliva, sneaks into the US and applies for amnesty?

And who is going to review all this crap, and sign off on it?

What immigration authority is going to stand up and say, "I okayed the application for US citizenship, for Jorge Mantigua, before he raped and murdered a mother of 3 in Bethany Beach while he was supposed to be doing maintenance work on her deck"?

Because that has already happened.

And it will happen again, and again, and again.

That's just too many people to deal with.


Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 6:30 PM

Hey I heart Jose,

How low can us gringos go? Wait and see.

Posted by: WB | May 3, 2006 6:43 PM

"You just gotta admit that if 20 million people have snuck in here from South America, a few hundred thousand, at least, were violent criminals in their home country. And the rest, a good percentage of *them* were nonviolent criminals.

So maybe 25%? Half?

would never be accepted for immigration or even a visa, even IF the visa quotas were high enough and they did not have to wait for legal immigrant status."


No, you don't have to admit this at all. There is no society in the world in which 25%-50% of the citizens are criminals.

Even in the U.S., where we imprison a higher percentage of our population than in almost any other country, the rate of imprisonment is ~.007, that is, 701 people imprisoned/100,000 people in the population. Of course, many more people commit crimes than are imprisoned, but, even so, it's quite a leap from .007 to 25%.

Stop making up numbers. Try finding some facts to support your arguments. It's really not that hard.

Posted by: cc is making up data | May 3, 2006 6:46 PM

The Minuteman are called racists. But wait we all know Japan is a xenophobic society. Look around, I see alot of Japanese built cars and I am sure those who fling the accusations of racism own a Honda or Toyota. Hypocrites!!
Yes - Ellis Island.
The United States of the late 20th Century is not the United States of 2006. In the late 20th our country could assimulate millions of immigrants. When these people left the home country there was no going back. Today we have international flights and telecommunication. There is nothing forcing a person to assimulate. Today we have welfare, health care, etc. Years ago none of these existed. It did not matter if person only had $5 to their name since they would never be a tax burden on our economy. In 1900 our country's population was 76 million today it approaches 290 million. We do not need millions of immigrants to build our country.

Posted by: M&M | May 3, 2006 6:59 PM

I agree with M&M, but he means 19th century, not 20th.

Posted by: chip | May 3, 2006 7:23 PM

im just tired of it all.
send them back, build the wall.

Posted by: tim, | May 3, 2006 7:37 PM

"Remember America, you'd be nothing without these illegals getting you rich, you jerks!"

There were plenty of self made rich Americans way before these illegals were here.

Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 7:59 PM

If we are in favor of enforcing the law, lets start with motor vehicle laws. This morning 95% of the motorist on the roads were illegals. 95% were breaking the speed limit, tail gating, driving in HOV, failing to yield, failing to stop completely at a light or stop sign, failing to slow down at a yellow light. Vehicle accidents cause tens of thousand of deaths a year, most could be prevented if motorist obey the law. Thousands more are injured. Billions are lost due to car accidents. Yet, where is the public get heated up to enforce these laws.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The laws are being enforced. If I get caught for speeding, I expect to be fined. If these illegals are caught, I expect them to be deported.

Posted by: cc | May 3, 2006 8:02 PM


So Fischer FINALLY changed the title of his column to admit it was ILLEGAL immigration.

He still revealed his bias by its original title and that of his editor who had no problem with it. What Washington Post editor besides a flaming liberal would let that title get printed?

Posted by: Baltimore,MD | May 3, 2006 8:10 PM

Fairfax County Public Schools has been pandering to them for years. One reason they went with the ridiculously expensive modified calendar is the high absenteeism in January . It is their traditonal "summer"vacation period so many of these "poor" immigrants fly home to visit. Yes, the illegals fly their legal kids and they miss school. So...

Posted by: public schools | May 3, 2006 8:49 PM

Any American citizen that has over the last few weeks watched illegal aliens (not p.c. but that's exactly what they are)marching with their foreign flags and hate filled crudely written message boards and not be moved to disgust,dispair,and dismay must be a card carrying liberal of the vilest kind of hate for our country.We're being invaded by a foreign hoard,(not just Mexicans but all countries)and the political hacks in Washington are ignoring the will of the people.Politicans that have the gall to stand up and say that they support "a comprehensive immigration plan" that includes a "guest worker program" and an" eventual pathway to citizenship " are living in "Never-Never land.What they really mean by these words is:"I support amnesty and immediate citizenship and a program that brings in millions more semi-slaves for my fat-cat donators of campaign funds.This is an in-your-face attitude to all voters.I am sick of hearing "we can't just deport 20 million people.Why the h... not? Get this America haters:an illegal alien is also a criminal,a thief,and a liar when he crosses the border or arrives by plane or boat.He is stealing my tax money,my birthright,and my children's and grandchildren's future.All you liberals that want to ignore this problem with a "wink and a nod"need to be in Europe with all the Chamberlains of the the world that would rather switch than fight.Well,I'm not low-lifed.I'll fight to protect my country's future.We're in a war and it,s time to choose sides"cowards and compromisers" to the left,patriots and law-abiding citizens to the right is the watchword!

Posted by: American Eagle | May 3, 2006 9:56 PM

The federal government is not doing anything to encourage assimilation. Even the military seems to be bilingual. Don't believe it? Then check out the US Navy's Spanish language recruiting site:

http://www.elnavy.com

Posted by: Josh | May 3, 2006 10:27 PM

American Eagle?

Your no eagle ... a volture more like it.

I am a citizen of this country, and I want the best for this country. Why is it difficult for people to connect the dots? The most prosperous cities in the United States are those where the majority of immigrants are located. This is where you have the beverly hills, the bluemonts, the mcleans. Take a drive out to West Virginia where there are almost no immigrants working in construction mostly whites working 9 to 5 and you will see the future of america without immigrants. It takes about ten years to have a simple bridge built. Compare for yourself, ask yourself why aren't these states as prosperous?, it is obvious. The United States would come to a screeching halt without immigrants. How would it compete with the world?

Take a moderate approach to this issue. Try to find the best solution to the problem. Anger never fixes anything. Reason and logic based on compassion for other humans is the way to success. Alot of people are at fault for this problem. Both sides created it.

Why do people always sedate themselves with the opium of pride. The color of your skin doesn't preclude you from rising or falling. History has shown this - the muslims where at one point the teachers of the world in regards to science, literature, and philosophy where are they now. The Romans, Babylonians, Britains where at one point centers of prosperity where are they now. The mayans and egyptians where all great and marvelous civilizations when europe was in total darkness in regards to science, learning, and engenuity. Societies rise and fall. But having the capacity to see our past and having the faculty to reason why should we repeat our history - the history of humankind.

The united states is the greatest and most awesome nation on this earth. Everyday I thank God that I am here, right now living under a constititution that protects my freedom. That is why this nation is great, because all mankind under it's protection can pursue hapinnes.

There are so many citizens in this country that are repeating the past by making enemies and not allies. It's not only important to say the truth but to say it in love. Do not mix racism or hate into applying the law of this land. Keep your cool.

Most if not all the citizens today are not half of what the founding fathers where. Lets solve these issues as people who feel, reason, and act, not as beasts.

oogliemooglie is right. Justifying racism under the cover of upholding the law will never hold.

Posted by: lion heart | May 3, 2006 10:55 PM

Any Illegal that wants a green card can do a tour of duty in Iraq. They grant amnesty in this case.

Posted by: Stars and Stripes | May 3, 2006 11:36 PM

The humanity!!!!

Posted by: Heindenburger | May 4, 2006 5:36 AM

Do Spanish language broadcasting companies encourage illegal immigrants to learn and speak English? Do their corporate visions imply assimilation for all Hispanic immigrants now much less in the future? (See corporate statements below). Congress and the Administration continue to avow "English as a prerequisite" for citizenship yet they allow the FCC to issue licenses to broadcasters who send the message: "Don't learn English and Protest to impose your language and culture on the US." How about a Farsi only Broadcasting Systems? How about French only Broadcasting Systems? Probably not. The Fed is promoting the Hispanic language above all others. Pretty soon our children will be saying "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of "Mexico" in Spanish. Write Congress and tell them to get a grip on the FCC as part of the immigration reform. Otherwise, the corporate future of English as a national unifying language is bleak. (Then again, maybe Legal America should launch their own boycott of SBS/Univision sponsors like Budweiser, Ford and GM). Why should the United States not demand all immigrants to read, speak and understand the language of the nation and assimilate? Why are only Hispanics asking the US to adapt to their language and their culture? They know the answer - the government encourages them. It's time for the silent majority to demand appropriate action by our elected officials.

http://www.spanishbroadcasting.com/corporatehistory.shtml

"Spanish Broadcasting System, Inc, founded in 1983 and incorporated in the State of Delaware in 1994, is the largest Hispanic-controlled radio broadcasting company in the United States. We currently own and/or operate 20 FM stations. Our strategy is to maximize the revenue and profitability of our radio station portfolio and to expand in our existing markets and into additional markets that have a significant Hispanic population. We believe that the continued growth of the U.S. Hispanic population.. provide us with significant opportunities. We also believe that we have a competitive advantage in the radio industry due to our focus on formats targeting U.S. Hispanic audiences and our skill in programming and marketing to these audiences."

"Univision Communications Inc. is the premier Spanish-language media company in the United States. Its operations include Univision Network, the most-watched Spanish-language broadcast television network in the U.S. reaching 98% of U.S. Hispanic Households; the country's leading Spanish-language cable network; Univision Television Group, operates 62 television stations."
(And From their 2004 Financial Report) Recent months have seen a series of new entrants into the Spanish-language radio and television businesses. This trend is likely to continue since the demographics of our viewers and listeners are very attractive to advertisers. The number of U.S. Hispanics is now nearly 40 million... Some of the new Spanish-language media entrants are large and well funded. We take them all seriously, and the competition keeps us on our toes."

Posted by: English Language Corporate FUTURE | May 4, 2006 9:50 AM

"This is still a country where we have tremendous admiration for the spunk and striving of new arrivals. We know that they are the scientists and engineers and inventors and entrepreneurs who keep America at the top of the heap." --- what scientists and engineers etc are you talking about???? !!!

"Deep down, we know that any fixes must come from a more honest federal government. But since that level of government has abdicated its responsibilities, we're having to fight this out in inappropriate venues, like local and state government. Thus this vote in Herndon." --- the way the people fight is by patrolling the border themselves, while the government is rotten, and instead they are being called vigilantes. There is nothing wrong in being a militia since it is provided in the U.S. Constitution.

Posted by: The Legal One | May 4, 2006 1:32 PM

I love the way you hispanics promote illegal immigration and amnesty with such brilliant flights of argument as:

You're a racist to even think of enforcing immigration laws!

Lettuce would be $8 a head if we didn't have open borders!

Hey, Gringo, there's 10,000 of us in Herndon now and there's gonna be 60,000 of us in five years so get used to it!

You people -- yes, I'll say it again, because I know it drives PC idiots up the wall and gives them heart attacks -- you people have nothing to offer this country. We don't need any more taco stands, five-family single houses, low-rider cars, gangs, drugs, moronic bullfight music and having to tell voice mail we want to conduct our business in English.

If you're so industrious and hard working, how come Mexico is such a corrupt, pathetic excuse for a country? And what makes you think you have a God-given right to sneak across the border and bring Mexico with you?

Posted by: Johnny G. | May 4, 2006 3:24 PM

Johnny G, You have a lot to learn.

Posted by: J | May 5, 2006 9:37 AM

Instead of trying to impose the Spanish Language and the Mexican culture on the USA, why don't the Spanish Language broadcasting networks teach Mexican immigrants to read, write and speak English? Until they do, I suggest real Americans BOYCOTT the sponsors of SBS and Univision etc. Here's a partial list of their sponsors. If the government won't encourage English in an English speaking nation, let the American consumer BOYCOTT the corporate sponsors who continue to encourage non-assimilation and continue to promote the illegal invasion. I'll find more as time goes by. BUILD A WALL CONGRESS or America will without your help.
UNIVISION
Ford Motor Company
ABC/Disney
AARP
American Airlines
Nielsen Media Research
United Airlines
CBS/Viacom
General Motors
Pepsico
NBC Universal/Telemundo
Abbott
Coca Cola Company
d'Escoto, Inc.
Gomez Transportation
Pfizer
Prudential
Scholastic
Target
Univision
Verizon
E.W. Scripps Co.
Pepsico
American Airlines
AARP

Posted by: Gringo Boycott | May 5, 2006 2:10 PM

"No, you don't have to admit this at all. There is no society in the world in which 25%-50% of the citizens are criminals."

...did I say that 25%-50% of the citizens of the country of origin of these illegals, were criminals?

Or did I say that possibly 25%-50% of the illegals who have snuck in this country from South America, are criminals?

Actually that's wrong.

Cause they are all criminals.

And that's a fact.

But I meant that there is a good chance that a significant percentage of these illegals were criminals in their homelands. But they are DEFINITELY criminals for sneaking into the US and working here illegally.

so: "Stop making up numbers. Try finding some facts to support your arguments. It's really not that hard."

a) I already have. You're just dodging the facts.

b) how can you bound the criminal percentage in South America, by the percentage of Americans who are incarcerated in the US? Is this logic?

If so, please tell me what kind!

not to mention the irony in mentioning this, in this context :)

Why not perform at least the basic exercise of finding the average and variance of the criminal percentage for each country in South America?

And then admit that that is not strongly correlated to the percentage of citizens involved in criminal activity?

Not to mention that what is criminal in the US, is not necessarily criminal in the rest of South America. And vice-versa.

But this is the point. WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THESE PEOPLE. And we will probably never find out. And if we DO find out, by some stroke of luck, it will either be too late (because they are already here) or it will be BAD NEWS.

There is no "win" here.

They have already broken the law, they are consistently breaking the law, and, more are coming.


Posted by: cc | May 5, 2006 2:31 PM

The following is a, well, somewhat confused and comical quote from a May 3 posting.

"The most prosperous cities in the United States are those where the majority of immigrants are located. This is where you have the beverly hills, the bluemonts, the mcleans. Take a drive out to West Virginia where there are almost no immigrants working in construction mostly whites working 9 to 5 and you will see the future of america without immigrants. Compare for yourself, ask yourself why aren't these states as prosperous?,"

Hey McLean - did you know that the majority of illegal immigrants live there? They must be making better money than most or maybe we found the illegal scientists that Fisher referred to.

I think the author of this post was trying to say that, without illegal immigrants, the plague of ongoing growth and crippling development in Northern Virginia would cease. The idiotic construction planned for Vienna Metro West and Tysons would be stopped. Hmm, let me think about that. Sounds fine to me - so, will all you illegal immigrants please go home now? If you sell your property in Mclean, you can live happily ever after in Mexico.

Posted by: Virginian | May 5, 2006 2:38 PM

...my trump card in this argument is that if these people were not so desperate to stay in this country, if they could make a decent life for themselves in their home countries, the US government would happily grant them tourist and work visas.

That is why so many "humanitarians" are telling all these horror stories about their lives before they came here, and what risks they took to get here.

Would you travel to Europe, say, if you knew there was a very good chance that you would get robbed or killed on the way there? Or the women, raped, robbed, and killed? Left for dead in the desert? Knowing that you could be caught and just deported, at any time? And if so, how eager would you be to leave once you got there?

The Mexicans, for example, instead of going north illegally, they could just go further south, to the entirety of South America.

Why is that not happening?

Well, for some, who live near the border, it is too easy to slip across the border, and too much money to be made here compared to what they can make in South America. But imagine all the people south of Mexico who pay coyotes thousands of dollars just to get shipped here, and a good percentage of them are killed along the way...raped, robbed, and left for dead in the desert.

That is no "small potatoes".

And they know it going in.

Now you tell *me* that all of these people are pure as snow. It's impossible.

If so, if they could round up $5k to get here, why not invest that in their hometown, or move somewhere where they can find a good job, safely, without risk of deportation?


Posted by: cc | May 5, 2006 2:40 PM

"Take a drive out to West Virginia where there are almost no immigrants working in construction mostly whites working 9 to 5 and you will see the future of america without immigrants."

...cause, of course, all the white people in West Virginia evolved from West Virginian apes.

And you know they are all poor and ignorant, just like the all Latinos that come to Los Angeles from South America and get on public assistance.

Posted by: cc | May 5, 2006 3:20 PM

To cc: Lets look at this. You say: "That is why so many "humanitarians" are telling all these horror stories about their lives before they came here, and what risks they took to get here.

You're broad brushing the illegal population a littel implying they are all humanitarian cases. The Federal Government estimates (pay attention criminal statisticians) that 12% of the illegal immigrants from Mexico and South America are criminals and many of them violent criminals. That trumps your position that they're all wonderful but poor desperate souls in search of somethign better. Your illegals also include MS 13 gang members (they're the good bunch of misguided kids who like to wield machetes in the DC area) drug dealers (I know it's a big business south of the border and someone's got to do it up here), and of course the average run of the mill robbers, muggers, thieves and rapists. Had we known about the Mob in the early 1900's, we could have stopped the Mafia from e3ver getting into this country. We now know about MS13 and have a chance now to stop it from spreading in this country. Why don't the ILLLEGAL Protesters police their own - Because, they don't want to - they just want to impose on the USA. Everything is free here. The politicians would rather donate $30K a year from the middle class than pay for deportation. Protest in mexico for a better life - demand that Vincinte Fox giev you some of his enormous wealth and create jobs. Otehrwise, overthrow your own government - don't mess with our country.

Posted by: Backlash | May 5, 2006 3:26 PM

I have a question for those who think mass deportation is the answer. How is it going to be paid for? The airlines probably aren't going to offer to fly 20 million passengers for free; ditto train and bus companies. Maybe they should walk back to Mexico. The Minutemen can escort them to make sure they really cross the border.

Posted by: Herndon Voter | May 5, 2006 4:38 PM

To Herndon Voter - we've already paid many times over for their tickets home. I do like your idea but wouldn't want to impose on the Minutemen. They have their hands full right now trying to build a wall that Congress won't. Honestly, I think C17's could do the job in about a month and, if Congress and the State governments would permit it, local law enforcement, with minute men assistance, could make the arrests. Then, we could put up some tents as holding areas at local air bases across the country and fly them out from there. They could take their precious flags with them to demonstrate in the streets of Mexico City.

Granted, it's a daunting task but America doesn't need to raise the white flag. We just need to do it. At $30K per person per year for free welfare, education and medical (that's a half billion per year), deportation is a lot more economical.

Posted by: Backlash | May 5, 2006 5:00 PM

Below are several quotes (or excerpts), mostly from those who founded thisnation;s laws, to help explain to the illegals, the liberal press and the misguided Catholic Church that this country has a few fundamental tenants to guide us in granting citizenship and earning freedom HERE. The illegal immigrants who revolt in our streets, wave Mexican flags and demand we adopt their culture and language have, by their acts, not earned amnesty or their right to be here. The have only shown their disrespect for our laws and that they are trying to steal the "jewel" of liberty. As Samuel Adams reminds us below, let them protest and win their freedom in their homeland and let us have "virtue enough to maintain liberty against a presumptuous invader."

While we're at it, let's also deport Hilary ivo her fondness for open borders and rubbery toothless immigration laws and impeach Bush for not guarding our sovereignty from these invaders. Build a wall CONGRESS and deport the invaders!

"Your love of liberty -- your respect for the laws ---- and your practice of the moral ....are the strongest claims to national and individual happiness." George Washington

"The truth is, all might be free if they valued freedom, and defended it as they ought. ...If a people will not be free; if they have not virtue enough to maintain their liberty against a presumptuous invader, they deserve no pity, and are to be treated with contempt and ignominy." Samuel Adams

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." Patrick Henry

"Strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to liberty..." John Adams

"Today's rallies show how entrenched the illegal alien lobby has become over the last several years...The iron triangle of illegal employers, foreign governments and groups like La Raza puts tremendous pressure on our elected officials to violate the desires of law-abiding Americans and to grant amnesty." Tom Tancredo

Posted by: John Adam's Ghost | May 6, 2006 1:21 PM

Wow everyone seems to have an opinion. I personally am against immigration. This is probley because i have so much trouble seeing it through the eyes the the immigrants themselves. I could never imagian such a corupt government.

Posted by: Marie Nobody | May 7, 2006 10:09 PM

Note to cc: Most of the illegal immigrants in this country are from North (Mexico) and Central (El Salvador) America, not from South America. Get your facts straight.

Posted by: Corrector | May 8, 2006 11:50 AM

Let's round them up and throw them out and all the other Americans who have done illegal acts including all our life termers in prison, child molesters, tax cheats, Enron executives and their kind, corrupt public officials, gang bangers, drug dealers, scofflaws, driving without insurance, underage drinkers, driving 56 MPH in a 55 MPH zone, jaywalkers, etc. etc.

Let's throw everybody out, everyone EXCEPT those that have not committed anything illegal.

Posted by: George B. | May 8, 2006 12:22 PM

Despite spin from both sides of the immigration issue, Herndon's election Tuesday says more about the failings of at-large voting than it does about any backlash against the town's day-laborer center.

In Herndon, as in many small towns, every voter casts a ballot for every position on the Town Council. It's a system that favors candidates who are able to win townwide majorities, which makes it difficult for a minority to win representation.

The new members of the council, just like the losing incumbents, are Anglo and middle class. Yet they govern a town that, the 2000 Census found, is 26 percent Hispanic and 10 percent black and in which 44 percent of the people speak a language other than English at home. But in Tuesday's election, Jorge Rochac, who was vying to be the council's first Hispanic American, came in dead last.

Until the voting system is changed to one based on wards, as in the District, or on districts, as in Fairfax County, the Herndon Town Council is unlikely to look like Herndon.

Posted by: Tim B. | May 8, 2006 12:24 PM

To George B - You suggest throwing everybody out EXCEPT those that have not committed anything illegal -life termers in prison, child molesters, tax cheats, Enron executives and their kind, corrupt public officials, gang bangers, drug dealers, scofflaws, driving without insurance, underage drinkers, driving 56 MPH in a 55 MPH zone, jaywalkers everyone.

The other option is of course to give the illegal immigrants what they want - make all of those crimes legal. I guess you're saying - If you break one law, you might as well break them all? That's brilliant! Great Fix!

Posted by: Backlash | May 8, 2006 2:28 PM

To Tim B - maybe the reason he came in dead last was that his positions on the issues that mattered (illegal immigration and taxpayers continuing to underwrite the illegal population) were contrary to what the majority wanted for their town. Other than die hard rightists and leftists, most PEOPLE vote for the person who reflects their positions on issues regardless of color, race, or gender. People are fed up with illegals protesting in American streets under banners of their own nations while receiving free, medical, free welfare and free education. It's time for illegals to get back in line and stop demanding the rest of this nation treats them like they're entitled to more than a fair opportunity to enter this nation legally!

Posted by: Backlash | May 8, 2006 3:22 PM

Back lash you should check out this article from the post, it'a about voting. The article is called: Whites take flight on Election Day. You can find it in Richard Morins columns. I'll try to post the link, if it doesn't work just check his past coloumns it's from Early April.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/13/AR2006041301776.html

I don't mind them using free education, and free welfare. I don't need it, and I doubt that most residents of Herndon need either. Do you remember when you were a kid, and you stop playing with your old toys but when your friend started playing with the toy, it became exciting again, then all of a sudden you wanted the toy back. Thats what these compaints sound like to me. " they're taking jobs, or "taking all the education". Stop and think for a minute. The jobs thier taking, the services they're using are things that we wouldn't even think about doing.

I understand the feelings about illegal immigration and how it's breaking the law and all. So i think our borders should be protected a little better. But this is the same country where a State Rep can throw a cell phone at a Police officer w/o getiing beat down, or drive around the capital high as kite, and get a ride home from the police. That would be motivation for me if I was an illegal thinking about sneaking over border. They see that our laws are not really enforced if you have the right job, or connections.

Posted by: J | May 9, 2006 12:10 PM

Back Lash.

Here's the point.

This word 'illegal' seems to be the license that many people are using to empower them with the right to trash or do as they please with these immigrants.

We would still be ruled by the Queen had our forefathers not illegally declared independence from the British, Europe probably be under Nazi rule today had FDR not illegally helped the Brits before the Pearl Harbor attack...

some more notable illegal acts that benefit us today... Chicago 1886 MayDay strike for 8 hour work days, Rosa Parks illegally sat down on a bus, Susan B Anthony jailed for illegally voting, etc. etc.

I too would cross oceans and deserts and do anything I could to survive or feed my family, even if I may have to break a man-made law or two.

btw Backlash: I believe most of your information might not be correct about the undocumented immigrants. Here's some FACTS you can refer to right here at the Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/07/AR2006050700721.html

Posted by: George B | May 9, 2006 2:11 PM

To George B - The laws of immigration as well as the world have changed, at least a little, since 100 years ago, a point the liberal Post press doesn't even bother to address. 100 years ago, this country was in the middle of expansionistic era - ever hear of the Industrial Revolution, transconttinental railroad, etc? We are now in the middle of a contraction era - people are screaming to control growth.
Times have changed yet the Post article portrays the issue as the same. Also, when the Post compares early 20th Century immigration, they seem to leave out the obvious fact that the Germans, Irish, Jews Poles etc all wanted desparately to learn English and become AMERICAN. And they did. The people who now enter, aside from breaking obvious laws that predacessors didn't (though I've seen the pro anarchy arguments - "yes we can" decriminalize all violations including illegal immigration laws), support their own television and radio broadcasting networks to perpetuate their own language rather than trying to learn English like all national immigrant predacessors. Again, if they want to learn English (it is the language of the land), why aren't Univision and SBS teaching English? 100 years have passed since the last immigration flood - the world has changed. I'm surprised the Post didn't recognize that minor difference.

If you are first in line, you deserve to be FIRST to enter this contracting country. If you broke in line, you don't deserve to be in line.

Posted by: Backlash | May 10, 2006 9:21 AM

BackLash,

I was getting ready to answer your comment but realized that you probably did not read or understand the the facts in the linked article, esp the language portion.

I'm sorry you did not seem to get to the meat of the article that I was trying to share with you. It really helps the discussion if people work on historical facts and not just personal observations as the basis of the discussion. It doesn't help using labels like liberal press, etc. for it just clouds the crux of the matter.

Finally, all waves of immigrants brought with them their own culture and America embraced (or at least strove to) the good parts. We shall do this too with the Latinos. We still have today the Chinatowns, Little Italy, Jewish enclaves, Polish neighborhoods, Greek town etc. etc. where in the core they speak their own languages and where their native cultures thrive. In fact you should look up what percentage of the Americans have at least a second language spoken in our own homes... that should give you a start and a better idea of what assimilation really means.

At any rate, it normally takes the 2nd generation anyway, to really start assimilating in any given migration model (anywhere in the world).

Posted by: George B. | May 10, 2006 11:09 AM

What does the Washington Post article say about the differences between 100 years ago and now? The answer is nothing even though the country in the late 1800's and early 1900's was virtually empty and expanding. Now we are filled and contracting. We need immigration reform to address the fact that we're not the big empty bowl we once were and that the country doesn't have the space it once did. We need to take in less than in 1900. The Post fails to mention the differences in growth and space between then and now.

What other differences does the Washington Post article fail to address? How about the fact that 9/11 was an immigration problem and that, without enforceable standards and border security, we face more personnel threats sneaking across an open border and more illegals over staying visas than pre 9/11?

What else does the Washington Post article miss?

"the Congress, by Public Law 100-402 as amended, has authorized and requested the President to issue annually a proclamation designating September 15 through October 15, as "National Hispanic Heritage Month".

Where's National Polish Month? National Irish Month? National Jewish Month? National Pacific Islander Month? Must be that lawmakers feel prior immigrants aren't as important as and those illegals who broke in line.
And from a previous Washington Post "Hispanics Underrepresented In the Federal Workforce"..... "Hispanic advocates say. The government suffers from a shortage of Spanish-speaking workers who could help non-English speakers. "

So, regardless of performance, competence, skills or education, regardless of anything objective other than ethnic background, the Federal Government now mandates affirmative action programs targeting Hispanics. I don;t recall any of the prior immigrants asking for special treatment - they just wanted the opportuinty.

Give me a break! What about under representation of Poles, Germans, Turks, Russians, Chinese, Irish, French, Italians, and Jews? Where's the Post's "objectivity" in immigration much less illegal immigration - it's dictated by liberal propaganda who want a bilingual Nation under any pretext they can sell!

Posted by: Backlash | May 10, 2006 1:11 PM

BackLash,

Would you say the country is in a contraction if there are 15-20 million undocumented working right now to sustain the pace of this economy?

Anyway, I really gotta go and catch a plane. But before I go, I have to state that your bias against Hispanics clearly shows in your comments. What's next, the Chinese, then the French, then ....

Your pseudonym fits you well.

Goodbye

Posted by: George B | May 10, 2006 1:50 PM

PTT --

I live in Japan, and they don't want a lot of immigrants, esp. unskilled uneducated ones like we have in America. They want to produce Japanese babies, not Japanese / Mexican whatever mix.

As a matter of fact, my Japanese friends wanted to know why the INS agents didn't arrest and deport all those illegal immigrants at the rallies.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10, 2006 2:19 PM

Mark,

If you like the Latino people so much, why don't you move to Mexico? They'll welcome you with open arms.

*snark*

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10, 2006 2:30 PM

Spewed by Mark:
"My question: would Jesus shun the illegals? I bet he would shun you, because you are acting no differently than the orthodox jews who killed him.

Now, whose side are you on: Jesus or the Devils? I see little compasion in your arguments, so I guess the latter."

In one breath are your hippie, esoteric, white liberal guilt arguements that are very pro-latino, pro-illegal immigrant, and then in the next post you are back to the 19th century KKK "The Jews Killed Jesus" rhetoric. Way to be hypocritical and racist. And YES, what you said is racist and anti-Semitic.

Not to mention Pontious Pilate was ROMAN not a Jew.

You might want to re-shave your head, your hair is starting to cover your swastika tattoo.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10, 2006 5:05 PM

We've all seen the liberal last resort reactions by those who disagree with securing our national borders and restricting the free passage of illegal immigrants, drug dealers and terrorists. Their last resort is name-calling - if you don't agree with our arrogant view of the illegal immigration, YOU ARE A RACIST. Let education prevail.

From Wikipedia, the Internet Encyclopedia (an objective reference):

"Racism refers to a belief system that humans can be separated into various groups based on physical attributes and that these groupings determine cultural or individual achievement.

The United Nations defines racism as follows:

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life

The truth is that the very ones who accuse American conservatives of racism are in fact racists themselves. The very effective illegal Hispanic lobby, the name callers, are the ones who have earmarked themselves for special preference and have effectively created a special class of citizenship for themselves to be esteemed above the laws of the land giving them a "more equal footing" than any other class of immigrants in the political, economic and cultural field of public life and history of immigration.

They have created laws to invoke special hiring and promotion practices, a National Month of Hispanic recognition, their own language broadcasting networks, spearate from all others, and other rights of favoritism. They have made themselves superior and now use that as a springboard to create more laws of distinction. Meanwhile, they condemn others as racist who dare to challenge their self invoked privaledges and prefernential treatment.

By violating Internationally recognized borders, by undermining laws made for all, by trying to nullify a unifying language of a nation without regard for existing culture, by demanding that culture excuse their illegals (not all illegals, just theirs, a distinction, exclusion, preference based on descent), by protesting under banners of other countries stealing rights reserved for legal citizens, they create for themselves a "belief system that they are separate" and superior. Arrogance is the banner of racism and theirs is far more apparent than any objective dissent offered by law abiding U.S. citiznens.

To George B: The French, Chinese, Jews, Italians, Germans, Irish, Poles, Arabs, Russians etc don't have 24/7 broadcasts in another language. They all learned English as a presursor to citizenship. I'll presume your plane trip is back to Mexico. We don't need your racism in the US.

Posted by: Backlash | May 11, 2006 10:00 AM

I don't think immigrants want to be superior they just want to be represented.

Posted by: J | May 12, 2006 10:52 AM

I would like to personally thank the Herndon residents for doing the right thing. I firmly believe this will be a theme in the 2006 elections. For all of those who pander to illegal immigrants (most Dems, and leading GOP like McCain), you will be voted out of office.

America wants elected officials that will serve the needs of US citizens. America does not want mass illegal immigration. If you secure the borders and enforce the current immigration laws (penalize employers of illegal aliens), then we don't have to surrender to Mexico and give 12-15 million illegal aliens citizenship or pay to deport them.

If you really want to learn about all the impacts of mass illegal immigration and where our elected leaders stand on the issue, visit: http://stoptheinvasion.blogspot.com

Posted by: VA Patriot | May 15, 2006 1:18 PM

Although illegal aliens are technically commiting a crime, I wouldn't necessarily generalize and refer to all of them as "criminals." While I am sure that a lot of people that cross the border are in fact criminals and are trying to escape jail time for their crime (unfortunately, that's one of the downfalls from illegal immigration), the vast majority are probably just as hard working, honest, and looking for a better life for their families. I don't agree in that they should be demanding citizenship, nor do I think it's going to happen for them. I also don't agree with them waving their Mexican flags around at an immigration rally, they are in the United States after all. But you can't really let some bad apples spoil the whole bunch. I think that the "round them up and deport them" approach is really a moot point at this time, it's just not going to happen, at least I don't think so. The idea of Mexicans coming across because they want to "take back their land" is really absurd at best, I just don't even know how that idea got started. Regardless of what approach to minimize illegal immigation is taken, it will cost money, a lot of it, so hopefully whatever action is taken, is done right the first time and not just a temporary patch. I do think that some illegals should be given a chance at citizenship, especially if they are good citizens and can prove that they are willing to pay their taxes, learn the English language, and be able to assimilate our culture. A lot of these families could be split apart if parents/children are deported. A lot of these kids could have a bright future here and really grow up to be valuable assets to our nation with the proper guidance and restrictions. I'm not saying that ALL illegal aliens should stay, obviously some will not want to pay taxes, will want to take advantage of social services, etc. Send those back, get rid of them, and if they have a criminal background, definitely send them back. Illegals will continue to cross the border, that is NOT going to stop. It's human nature to try and look for a better way of life, even if it means risking your life, but the US can certainly make it a lot harder for them to come across by adding more patrols and getting rid of so many social services that in a way, are just an incentive for thousands of people (and not just illegals) to just stay at home, do nothing, and collect a nice paycheck. Get rid of tons of those useless social services and I think it will help the US weed out those immigrants (legal or illegal) that really want to work or just want a free ride. Many illegals aliens (probably not the majority though) are already paying income taxes as we speak and they can't collect because they are under false names/ss#. Many others come here legally, but becuase it takes so long to really become a legal resident, their status changes to "illegal," even if you're working on becoming legal. The system is definitely broken, it has been for years, but it wasn't till now that the dookie finally hit the fan.

Posted by: Blogger | May 18, 2006 12:07 PM

Would Herndon voted as they vote if the people we are talking about would be white, blonde and speak english? Think about it.

Posted by: LF | May 18, 2006 7:18 PM

LF, that same questions has been asked many times, and depending on who you ask, you'll get different responses. Some will say that, no, we wouldn't have as much of a problem if all these illegals were blond, blue eyes, etc. But other would say that you are throwing the race card when it has nothing to do with race but just "illegal immigration." As I said before, I think that diminishing several social services would really be a wake up call to those that are only looking for a hand out. That doesn't only apply to illegals, there are plenty of legals and citizens that take advantage of these services, which, we, as taxpayers, are paying for. But it's just one less incentive for people to come over for handouts. But those that come here and work their rear-ends off for a better life for their families, it's really hard for me not to want to give them a chance.

Posted by: Blogger | May 19, 2006 9:09 AM

First off, I'd like to say that I'm not racist and that I have friends who are hispanic and this statement is not about race. They are however LEGAL US Citizens. I have voted Democrat for the last 15 years of my life. That being said, The immigration views of the political parties has changed my affiliation. Any political candidate that supports the rights of ILLEGALS over the rights of Americans (United States Citizens of All Races) and our right to protect our own nations borders from ILLEGALS will not get my vote. I have disagreed with President Bush on many political views but I do agree with him that there should not be amnesty for illegals because we have laws in place that they have violated by crossing the border illegally. What makes them special because they broke our US laws when so many countless others of all Nationalaties have been waiting for years to enter our Country LEGALLY. My heritage which consists of American Indian,Irish(from Legal Irish Immigrants)and English(again from Legal Immigrants) doesn't make me "special" it makes me a US Citizen because my ancestors immigrated here LEGALLY.
What makes "Illegal Immigrants" that crossed from Mexico and South America ILLEGALLY more "special" than all those Nationalities of people who want to become US Citizens Legally?

What gets me most is this...After the devastation of 9/11 how can Americans feel any differantly about the need for insureing our borders security. As long as the images of the Twin Towers burning and crumbling to the ground and the attack on our Pentagon are fresh in our memories how else can American Citizens feel safe with millions of Hispanic Illegals crossing our borders to the south. It seems to me and countless others that our Southern Border is an open invitation to terrorist invasions and attack now. If millions of Mexicans can cross illegally into our country unnoticed and get jobs in some of our Nations largest Food suppliers in the US then it stands to reason that terrorists can do the same thing. What then? A differant form of terrorist attack? Americans should be too intelligent to let that happen yet here we are opposing strict border security! The entire mess leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. Have we as a Nation forgotten already the lives that were lost on 9/11 and how pain and anguish filled our hearts as we waited in fear as the death toll rose? Do we really want to leave ourselves open to such destruction, devastation, death, turmoil and anguish again? I hear it daily how the threat of terrorism is still very real hear on US soil today and I believe that because virtually anyone can enter the US illegally now. The thousands of illegal marchers all over the news has proven that to anyone who has watched the news.Before 9/11 terrorists came here and got pilots training and liscense from us so they could bomb the twin towers. Now we monitor the flights and passenger lists coming into the US but now they can just walk across the US-Mexican border and find work in some of our largest food suppliers probobly as easilly as illegals do. That scares me because I've seen on the news how these food suppliers hire illegals and I know it's possible. I'm so dissapointed that our Nation and it's Polititions aren't more protective of it's citizens. Thats a shame. I pray it doesn't take another repeat of 9/11 for people to wakeup to the urgency in secureing our Nations borders and I pray that all those who remember the devastation of 9/11 keep that in their minds when they place their votes during elections. I certainly will remember...I'll never forget the horror of it!

Posted by: A Concerned U.S. Citizen | May 22, 2006 12:58 PM

I guess the U.S wants another war with mexico, and guess what mexico has never won a war, but during the second World War they did let Germany in their borders to help spy on the U.S. so why not open the borders let the rest of the invaders in. You know Ted Kennedy killed Mary Jo and now he and McCain are going to kill the United States, see history does repete itself.

Posted by: Vic Bailey | May 26, 2006 10:19 PM

what part of illegal is it that our politicians don't understand,legal immigrants are a welcome addition to the USA

Posted by: h.chan | May 28, 2006 2:05 PM

Below are a few quotes from an article by Alexandra Starr on May 3 2006 that essentially confirms that Spanish Radio "locutores" and their parent companies were responsible for inciting the riotous demonstrations by ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS across America in May. The article shows other "contributions" made by these Spanish only radio announcers over the years and identifies the corporate culprits behind the welfare system support for illegal immigrants and open invitation to them to continue to break laws by illegally entering the United States. As you can see below, Clear Channel (and probably others like them) are responsible for pushing the illegal invasion of the United States. Send a message to Clear Channel - boycott their radio stations and their commercial backers. If they want to incite riots, let's show them the door - back to Mexico.

Voice of América

The Spanish-language DJs behind the new wave of Latino activism.

By Alexandra Starr
Posted Wednesday, May 3, 2006, at 3:48 PM ET

"Ask activists to explain why millions of immigrants have taken to the streets, and they will invariably credit Spanish-language radio DJs. Organizers of a Chicago rally that drew several hundred thousand protesters on March 10 said it wouldn't have come off without the help of ...El Pistolero (the Gunman)..... Despite the humorous nicknames, the Latino radio announcers--or locutores--are obviously doing more than cracking off-color jokes (although that is a staple of their shows). They're helping to shape the biggest outbreak of public activism since the 1960s.

The number of Spanish-language stations has exploded to about 700, more than double the number just 15 years ago, according to Tom Taylor, editor of the newsletter Inside Radio. That trend should only accelerate. As the U.S. Latino population has swollen to more than 40 million....radio behemoths like Clear Channel have started to convert their rock and oldies stations to Spanish-language formats.

In 1994, Spanish-language radio stations in California whipped up Latino outrage against Proposition 187, which sought to deny most public services to illegal immigrants.

A few dozen guys behind microphones, in other words, may have done more than incite the biggest wave of activism this country has seen in decades. If Hispanics do realize their potential as a giant in U.S. politics, the locutores will deserve a big share of the credit."

Posted by: Anti Clear Channel | June 12, 2006 12:50 PM

Currently, there are millions of undocumented aliens working in the US. They may have violated immigration law but that does not mean that their exploitation must go unheeded. The Senate Bill has address the issue and each day of delay in having a law that would provide a comprehensive reform on immigration means not only the continuation of the exploitation of undocumented aliens by scrupulous US employers but also the continuation of the hypocrisy in the country.

Posted by: jonas | June 12, 2006 6:13 PM

Legal immigration caters to criminals too

Zhou Jinhuo, head of Fujian Provinces Bureau of Industry and Commerce (but now under investigation in China for extortion) was thought to have fled to America where he recently received a residency permit. According to press reports, his U.S. bank accounts may hold up to US$100 million in ill-gotten gains. While Mr. Zhou did not make it to America, as he was captured in China, the case does bring to light one of the most disturbing aspects of legal U.S. immigration. Mr. Zhou, a long-time communist official, has spent a lifetime denying others their freedoms, and yet, he and his family were welcomed to the free world courtesy of an American residency permit. Perhaps if we denied anti-democratic officials and their relatives access to the U.S., they would be motivated to make things better for themselves and their countrymen back home.

In another such case, Yao Cao of McKinney Texas was recently found guilty of smuggling illegal aliens (Mexicans) into the U.S. to serve as "slaves" in Midwestern Chinese restaurants. And yet, her husband and son have recently been given permission to leave China and enter the United States legally.

Both cases make clear that all our immigration policies need detailed analysis. If our objective is to promote democracy and the rule of law around the world, then let us first insist upon it here at home.

Posted by: Sun | June 22, 2006 3:43 AM

The messages about zhou have not been opened officially in china . Jul 15 ,2006

a cityzen
from Fuzhou China

Posted by: 5 | July 15, 2006 6:49 AM

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