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Illegal Immigration: What Virginians Really Think

The more I talk to people who live in Prince William County, the more I find that while residents like the idea that their supervisors are trying to do something about the unsettling changes in the county's population, hardly anyone thinks that either of the most vocal sides in the immigration debate are right.

Rather, there is on this issue, as on so many in American life, a vast middle that feels left out of the political and media discussions on volatile questions.

Now comes a study by sociologists at George Mason University probing attitudes of Virginians about immigration and its impact on their lives.

The survey provides plenty of support for Prince William politicians who voted to have police check the immigration status of anyone stopped even for a traffic violation. Fully 73 percent of those polled said they support that approach to identifying illegal immigrants.

The poll brings out one of the often-unspoken truths in attitudes toward immigrants: While the great majority of non-Hispanic whites say they do not feel particularly economically challenged by new immigrants, many African-Americans do. "Nearly half of all African Americans in the survey (49 percent), compared with only 29 percent of non-Hispanic whites, agreed strongly that undocumented immigration tends 'to lower the wages and salaries of American workers,'" the Mason study says.

Another example: While 65 percent of Hispanics and 44 percent of non-Hispanic whites approve of government-supported day labor centers that help immigrant workers--including illegals--get construction and lawn jobs, only 32 percent of blacks approve of that idea.

But whites and blacks part ways on other methods of cracking down on illegal immigrants. Asked what they think of the Minutemen and others who look for illegal immigrants along the border and then report them to federal authorities, non-Latin whites were even more approving (58 percent) of those efforts than blacks (50 percent), perhaps reflecting traditional black concerns about being racially profiled or targeted by police and others. Latinos break sharply with others on this question, with only 27 percent approving of that tactic.

Blacks are the only group in the survey who believe that illegal immigration increases the risk of terrorism; 51 percent of blacks say that's the case, compared to 38 percent of non-Latin whites and 17 percent of Hispanics.

In general, the lower the income level and the lower the education level, the more likely people are to be perturbed by illegal immigration. Is that because such people feel more directly challenged for jobs and government services by illegals?

Do illegal immigrants take jobs away from American workers? The largest Yes vote came from those who make $25,000 to $50,000 a year: 44 percent of that group said yes, illegals do take jobs from Americans. Only 31 percent of those making $75,000 to $100,000 agreed, and only 22 percent of those making more than $150,000 felt the same way.

That split virtually vanished on the question of having police check people's immigration status: 81 percent of those in the $25k-$50k income range said yes, have the cops check them out, and 73 percent of those in the $150k-plus range agreed.

Mason researchers Steven Vallas and Emily Zimmerman concluded that what drives our attitudes toward immigration is our cultural background, rather than any particular set of facts on the ground. What we believe about illegal immigrants is predicted more by our political views and our economic status than by any regional differences in how many immigrants live among us, or any other local variables.

Vallas and Zimmerman write:

"It is not merely objective conditions that drive the immigration debate: the cultural "lens" which Virginians invoke leads them to perceive the issue in decidely different terms. In this respect, the immigration debate may provide another expression of the ongoing "culture war" that has gripped the American polity."

But regional differences do matter to some extent: In parts of Virginia with very low unemployment, the survey found that 53 percent of respondents approve of day labor centers, while in the parts of the state with the most joblessness, only 33 percent approved of day labor centers.

It stands to reason, therefore, that northern Virginians were more open to illegal immigrants than any other Virginians. Here in the most affluent part of the state, only 25 percent of those surveyed strongly agreed that illegal immigration hurts the American way of life, while down in Southside Virginia, that number soars to 59 percent.

By Marc Fisher |  July 19, 2007; 7:33 AM ET
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Comments

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One thing to note is the questionaire would not pass an undergraduate course in survey research. It uses the term undocumented when asking about illegal immigrants but the term legal when talking about legal immigrants. A more well writtten survey would have either used undocumented and documented or illegal and legal or best of all rotated the terms.

I'll assume they mangaged to avoid sample bias; but like most surveys, if you frame the question properly you will get the answers you want.

Posted by: Woodbridge VA | July 19, 2007 8:31 AM

"In general, the lower the income level and the lower the education level, the more likely people are to be perturbed by illegal immigration. Is that because such people feel more directly challenged for jobs and government services by illegals?"

Rhetorical question? I hope so, because the answer is "No S**t! Duh!" and suchlike.

From
Immigration and African-American Employment Opportunities (http://www.nber.org/papers/w12518)
via The Atlantic
(http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200703/primarysources)


Between 1960 and 2000, the employment rate for black men plunged from 90 percent to 76 percent; for "low-skilled" black men (defined as high-school dropouts), in particular, it fell from 89 percent to just 56 percent. ... A new study considers this shift in light of large-scale immigration, which may have crowded black men out of the labor market ... The researchers found that as immigration increased the supply of workers at a particular education level, the employment rate for black men in that category declined, ... From 1980 to 2000, the authors conclude, immigration accounted for roughly a third of the decline in the black employment rate.

Posted by: wiredog | July 19, 2007 8:52 AM

This is something the Post and main stream media in general have been pushing ever since this issue came to the forefront. Undocumented workers and legal immigrants. It paints the picture for them that both are somehow legal just that one group is undocumented. What a joke.

Posted by: DC | July 19, 2007 9:02 AM

Which why public policy is shaped by paranoia and ignorance, not facts or logic.

Posted by: joe | July 19, 2007 9:02 AM

I don't see how undocumented and illegal are interchangeable. I grew up with many many middle-aged and older people who were undocumented but born right in my small town in Missouri.

Posted by: BKP | July 19, 2007 9:08 AM

I'd say the word "illegal" is a pretty strong fact.

Posted by: Bethesda, MD | July 19, 2007 9:48 AM

If you're a black or white short order cook working in Arlington, you're job is not "going away" to Latinos. However, your job may pay less because employers use cheap labor where they can find it. Whites and blacks should know this. Oh, what a short memory we have! Blame the employers, not the workers...

Posted by: Dan | July 19, 2007 9:50 AM

Blacks are the only group in the survey who believe that illegal immigration increases the risk of terrorism; 51 percent of blacks say that's the case, compared to 38 percent of non-Latin whites and 17 percent of Hispanics.

As a black who did not take part in this survey, I assume the answer from blacks was based on ALL "illegal" immigrants, not just Hispanic "illegal" immigrants. How was the question asked?

Posted by: BLM | July 19, 2007 9:52 AM

Given the shameful history of Night Riders and similar vigilante groups, I am surprised that so many African Americans would approve of the so-called Minutemen.

Posted by: MikeL | July 19, 2007 9:54 AM

Maybe you were only focusing on jobs, but lets not forget the huge strain "illegals" put on our state and local services? (Hospitals, police etc.)

Posted by: bethesda | July 19, 2007 9:58 AM

Here's yet another issue to add to my list of things that I'm sick of hearing about. The time to curb illegal immigration would have been about 20-30 years ago. By the time I got to first grade, I was already used to seeing non whites and non blacks in my classroom, and in my neighborhood. By now, this issue doesn't carry any personal weight, because I don't know what American life was like before illegal immigration. If you turn on a faucet, then you shouldn't wait until the sink overflows before you realize that it's time to shut if off and start pumping the excess out.

Posted by: YourStrawberry23 | July 19, 2007 10:53 AM

Furthermore, I think it's quite stupid that lawmakers and the public want to even debate the issue at this stage. It's like someone woke up one morning and said "oh, I think I'll start trying to curb this illegal immigration issue today." It seems that no one cared or had the foresight to see the effects that illegal immigration would have on our communities when we first started this no questions asked, we want to help you at the expense of ourselves BS. So why is such a big issue now.

Posted by: YourStrawberry23 | July 19, 2007 10:56 AM

Furthermore, I think it's quite stupid that lawmakers and the public want to even debate the issue at this stage. It's like someone woke up one morning and said "oh, I think I'll start trying to curb this illegal immigration issue today." It seems that no one cared or had the foresight to see the effects that illegal immigration would have on our communities when we first started this no questions asked, we want to help you at the expense of ourselves BS. So why is it such a big issue now.

Posted by: YourStrawberry23 | July 19, 2007 10:56 AM

I don't care if they are taking jobs away from someone or if they bring property values down or even if they are green.I object to their ILLEGAL presence in this country. It is ridiculous when they say they are law abiding and contribute to society. Even if they never break another law in this country their presence is predicated and made possible by an illegal act, entering without the permission of our government. By definition that makes them criminals and they should be sent packing when they are caught. As far as I am concerned, after that, they are welcome as can be to apply for the proper documents to return as long as they didn't commit any felonies.

Oh, BKP. if the people you are refering to as UNDOCUMENTED were born in an American hospital and followed procedure they were indeed DOCUMENTED. What the heck do you think a birth certificate is?

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2007 11:17 AM

"Oh, BKP. if the people you are refering to as UNDOCUMENTED were born in an American hospital and followed procedure they were indeed DOCUMENTED."

"If," yes. Lots of elderly people in poorer parts of the country were not born in hospitals, had no doctor attending the birth, and generally didn't trust government procedure any further than they could throw it. Trust me, there are undocumented native-born Americans.

Posted by: otherquaker | July 19, 2007 11:35 AM

The reason only 25% of respondents in NOVA said illegal immigration was harmful to quality of life was probably due to the fact that 50% of the respondents were illegal themselves.

Posted by: Unkle Cracker | July 19, 2007 11:46 AM

Why no mention of the correlation between lower education level and the prevalence of xenophobia? Though I guess a participant in a survey would be unlikely to cop to such a suggestion. Still, seems reasonable.

Posted by: Nate | July 19, 2007 12:38 PM

Thank you, otherquaker. In fact, this issue came up recently with regards to older people with the passport requirements for travel from Canada. This had to do not only with total lack of documentation, but documentation that had been lost many years ago.

Posted by: bkp | July 19, 2007 12:46 PM

The argument of xenophobia are completely without merit in Loudoun County (which also has recently passed a measure similar to the one in PWC). Eastern Loudoun county has been very welcoming to the Asian, Indian, and Eastern European technology workers who have moved to the area in higher numbers collectively than the concurrent Latino immigration boom. The difference is that these immigrants have come here legally and have begun assimilating into the great Melting Pot. Nobody cares if you speak Telagu (sp?) or Spanish if your home if you can speak English to your neighbors. They care more about having one single family living in a single-family house, not four families with ten cars.

The most ardent backers of a crackdown on illegal immigration that I know are my South and East Asian coworkers who have been waiting years for their greencard processing to finally complete. They've been stuck making pennies on a dollar because switching companies means having to begin the green card process again from scratch. The last amnesty fiasco created a monstrous backlog at INS that has literally caused several years worth of delay. The process is broken, but it's a shame that Virginia counties must take action because the federal government won't fix the mess it has created.

Posted by: Leesburger | July 19, 2007 12:56 PM

"Study finds those with lower income, education levels are more likely to be perturbed by issue."

Just read the comments people make with regards to immigration articles published in the WOPO and that would become very obvious!!! No study by sociologists needed!!!

Posted by: Ward4Dummy | July 19, 2007 12:56 PM

Although I do not feel threatened by illegal immigrants job-wise, I will have to pay for my child's private pre-K $270 per week. Because all public pre-K spots are taken by illegal immigrants' children who somehow qualify for that service before my child does. That makes me very angry.

Posted by: Dura | July 19, 2007 12:59 PM

The fact the illegals are even here at all demonstrates their predisposition to break the laws. I would ask anyone who doubts it to spend a day at the Prince William County Judicial Center in Manassas. The courtrooms are overflowing with murderers, gang members, rapists, thieves, muggers and all sorts of other thugs -- and the predominant language of most proceedings is Spanish. I agree with those who say we're doing too little too late about this very real and dangerous problem, but it's still much better than doing nothing at all.

Posted by: Vic | July 19, 2007 1:13 PM

>

This is a load of crap!

As an MBA with a six-figure income, I am VERY MUCH "perturbed" by the increae in crime and the increased cost of social services atrributed to illegal immigrants.

Not to mention the effects of the unwanted attention from drunken grown Latino men on my 15-year-old granddaughter.

I just love how the liberal elistist snobs, who aren't affected (except for the possiblity of losing cheap labor), try to define those who don't kiss up to "undocumented immigrants"(what a typically liberal, politically correct wimpy euphamism) as "less educated, lower class xenophobes".

It's not working. Try something else, like respecting the law.

Posted by: CEEAF | July 19, 2007 1:18 PM

When I used brackets, the silly system deleted the comments I was responding to. Here goes again:

""Study finds those with lower income, education levels are more likely to be perturbed by issue."

Just read the comments people make with regards to immigration articles published in the WOPO and that would become very obvious!!! No study by sociologists needed!!!"

This is a load of crap!

As an MBA with a six-figure income, I am VERY MUCH "perturbed" by the increae in crime and the increased cost of social services atrributed to illegal immigrants.

Not to mention the effects of the unwanted attention from drunken grown Latino men on my 15-year-old granddaughter.

I just love how the liberal elistist snobs, who aren't affected (except for the possiblity of losing cheap labor), try to define those who don't kiss up to "undocumented immigrants"(what a typically liberal, politically correct wimpy euphamism) as "less educated, lower class xenophobes".

It's not working. Try something else, like respecting the law.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2007 1:19 PM

Every day we see our politicians (particularly Democrats) lamenting the disparity in income between the working class and the wealthy, and posturing about assisting the working class with new Federal programs and increases the minimum wage. However, this is all window dressing. These are the very same politicians who insist on uncontrolled immigration putting enormous downwards pressure on wages for the working class which no amount of Federal programs can undo. They are screwing the very people that they purport to be helping.
This hypocrisy should be front page news in the Washington Post. Unfortunately, this would reflect badly on the liberal elite, so reporting it is not an option.

Posted by: Concernedcitizen3 | July 19, 2007 1:23 PM

My wife always said her great grandfather entered the US through Ellis Island, but never became a citizen. Ellis Island released all their data online at:
http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/

Her great-grandfather's name is not on those rolls. No one with a similar name is listed in the three years he supposedly came over legally. She has no idea what really happened or if he was even a legal immigrant.

Just because family lore holds that everyone came from Ellis Island or came over on this ship or another doesn't make it true. I once met a genealogist who discovered her ancestor, long lauded as commanding officer in the US military with a heroic role in the war of 1812 was just a private prior to the invasion and lasted for a year or two at most before being documented in the 1810 census as a 19 yr old farmer.

So sure, we can talk about attitudes and opinions and that's fine. But if you don't have proof that your great great grandfather was a legal immigrant, if you don't have the census records, then do not say another word about it until you do. You will be surprised that the stories do not always add up to your faithful beliefs.

Posted by: DCer | July 19, 2007 1:24 PM

Get rid of all illegals. Doing this will allow wages to increase for the lower economic class AMERICANS. This will allow them to increase their income and not be held down by these illegals. One last thought, they need to be stopped, checked, finger printed and sent directly to a detention camp to be held until they can be sent to their home country.

Posted by: Al | July 19, 2007 1:26 PM

The fact the illegals are even here at all demonstrates their predisposition to break the laws.

----

The founding fathers of these United States completely rejected the concept of a "predisposition" to break laws. It was how they made our system of laws great, we didn't rely on these French ideas like "predispositions" or debtors prisons or the like. I can't imagine an American today pining for the days of European Monarchy, but Vic may just have done it.

Posted by: DCer | July 19, 2007 1:30 PM

Vic - you are an idiot. If reality were to reflect your misguided reasoning, places like Vermont (which hardly has any Spanish-speakers) would be free of any murderers, thieves, and muggers.

My only consolation is that these people will continue to populate this country whether you like it or not. Their children, myself included, will make their voice heard and will not stand for these xenophobic laws.

And to those hypocrites who swear that their only concern is to "uphold" the laws of this country... I'd love to know how many times you have gone one mile/hr. over the speed limit. I'm guessing the response to that would be "well, thats different!" Well, no. The "law is the law", isn't it?

Posted by: Disappointed and Anonymous | July 19, 2007 1:31 PM

I think my Prince William county board of supervisors overlooked one area where illegals can be stopped and driven out of the county. I think they overlooked the purchase of large ticket items. I think and propose that you must show legal status before the purchase of real estate, business or automobile can be completed. Taking away economic incentives to invest will rid our county of these leaches.

Posted by: Al | July 19, 2007 1:32 PM

Northern Virginia is not in the mainstream of this country. Several of the surrounding communities are among the highest income areas in the nation. For decades non-locals have had to be attracted to the area to do labor and craft work, and, due to the high cost of living, that has never been easy. Twenty years ago itinerant construction workers were living in park camp grounds, such as Prince William Forest Park because they could not afford to pay the rent in the area. For years workers have made the long commute from the Valley to the DC area. Of course a small percentage of residents in the area see no economic threat from illegals--illegals generally don't get jobs as white collar workers. Given the fact that illegals don't compete with them economically and that illegals force wages down, most of the residents see the influx of illegals as an economic benefit, not a threat--they are thrilled that they can go to their local 7-11 and pick up cheap labor to do their yard work. They nod their heads like bobble dolls when someone says illegals are only doing the work real Americans won*t--they certainly aren't going to get dirty and sweaty, unless it is in Gold*s gym. The reality in the rest of the country is much different. One doesn't have to travel too far into rural and small town America to see real Americans working construction and being flag persons on highway work. Unfortunately, all of the nation*s congressional representatives and senators live in this fantasy land, losing touch with the life their constituents lead. Maybe when DC*s cushy office jobs are outsourced in great numbers, the local residents will begin to understand what the poor, unwashed working class is facing today--however, it may be too late by then.

Posted by: ChuckB | July 19, 2007 1:36 PM

I think that there are a lot of myths out there about legal immigration in the 20s. If you are interested, check the newspapers from that time and you will find out that one year in particular, 1924, 170,000 people came to this country illegally from Cuba and Canada. It represented about half of the people who came here legally that year. People were not assimilating them Read the sories of people not learning English and getting into crime (or it is just the media showing the "clash of cultures"?).

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 1:44 PM

BKP and otherquaker... That people entered this country ages ago and now have no documentation of that fact is regretable. There ARE procedures for having these types of things fixed. That someone is born in the back room of their granny's shack in the middle of the swamp is irrelevant. All they have to do is go to the county seat and report the birth. It's not MY fault if they are afraid of the government and chose not to register the birth. It's also not my problem that they now cannot get a passport. If they lost it or never had one, they are just going to have to go to the county seat and petition for a new copy or a correction or establishment of a birth record. Don't be surprised when you are asked for exhaustive proof though (your problem for not following procedures or being so careless as to lose the proof of your citizenship so buck up)...

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2007 1:45 PM

Dear Mark, why not just state what the real "correct" position is? Even among your elite, highly educated the answer was 73% that they wanted IDs checked.
I'm saying that a sleeping giant has woken.
2008 won't be about health care or just Iraq but number 1 will be the securing of our borders and illegal immigration.
Guess what side the Dems are on?
The losing side.
And as for the spin, that the GOP will be a permanent minority if it chooses "racist" anti-immigration positions.
Well securing our borders isn't racist and you aren't looking at the polling data.
It's most American citizens, of all parties that want the border secured.
But then National boundaries are outdated when you want world citizenship and wealth redistribution.
But you can not come out and say that can you?

Posted by: Ed Lulie | July 19, 2007 1:52 PM

Illegal Aliens broke the law.
If you were to draw a line showing different types of crimes , where would you put them?
Worse than Paris Hilton's crime? Less than what Scooter Libby did?
Is it as bad as watching a dog fight in Virginia (wich is a felony and a big business in the area)?
Is it less than paying for sex as one our pillar of morality did( Vitter opposes to illegal aliens because of their crime. Maybe they need to ask God for amnesty and claim he forgive you and that would be the end of our immigration troubles)?
Have about jaywalking or violating the speed limits while driving? a lot of us have done it and because we were not caught is not a problem, but is illegal immigration a worse crime?
I think that deep inside ourselves it is not that we are racists, we are just reacting to a different culture.

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 1:56 PM

By the way... Just realized that I was forgetting to put my name in the name field (wish the WP would use the same comment method all over the paper). All of the posts attributed to "Posted by: |" are mine except the one starting with "When I used brackets"

Posted by: Mike in Reston | July 19, 2007 2:03 PM

People talk about building a wall to secure the borders. Most of the people who are in this country illegaly overstayed their visas. How do we plan to address that? We don't see a lot of people targeting employers. I something done with the owners of El Pollo Rico because they were in the money laundry business, other than that we don't say or do anything

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 2:05 PM

AB, do you have any statistics backing up your statement that "Most of the people who are in this country illegaly overstayed their visas?"

Posted by: Leesburger | July 19, 2007 2:21 PM

Leesburger,
There are some studies by the Pew Hispanic Center that estimates that between 40 to 50 percent of the people who are in the country illegaly entered by legal means.

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 2:30 PM

"44 percent of that group said yes, illegals do take jobs from Americans. Only 31 percent of those making $75,000 to $100,000 agreed, and only 22 percent of those making more than $150,000 felt the same way."

NO KIDDING. The rich liberal pigs in places like Montgomery who are lawyers, lobbyests, or other feeders at the public trough do not have to worry about illegals taking THEIR jobs or driving down THEIR wages. And, they get to mistreat an exploitable source of labor as nannies, gardeners, and other household slaves.

Posted by: Jerry B | July 19, 2007 2:36 PM

"44 percent of that group said yes, illegals do take jobs from Americans. Only 31 percent of those making $75,000 to $100,000 agreed, and only 22 percent of those making more than $150,000 felt the same way."

NO KIDDING. The rich liberal pigs in places like Montgomery who are lawyers, lobbyests, or other feeders at the public trough do not have to worry about illegals taking THEIR jobs or driving down THEIR wages. And, they get to mistreat an exploitable source of labor as nannies, gardeners, and other household slaves.

Posted by: Jerry B | July 19, 2007 2:36 PM

Talk about picking and choosing only the results which are likely to give readers the wrong impression about the entire findings of the survey.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2007 2:36 PM

That would mean 50-60% entered by illegal means. I found this on the Pew Hispanic Center website http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/19.pdf

Either way, I agree with you that without targeting employers, the wall will not address the problem.

Posted by: Leesburger | July 19, 2007 2:37 PM

"The fact the illegals are even here at all demonstrates their predisposition to break the laws."

- Okay, I stand corrected. It's not a predisposition. It's a fact. Those who enter this country illegally are law breakers. Or how else would you define illegal?

"My only consolation is that these people will continue to populate this country whether you like it or not. Their children, myself included, will make their voice heard and will not stand for these xenophobic laws."

- I will concede that lawful immigrants are less likely to break the law. For one thing, they have demonstrated at least some modicum of respect for other law abiding citizens within their new country. However, the same cannot always be said for their children.

Posted by: Vic | July 19, 2007 2:39 PM

Additional funds should be provided by Prince William supervisors to conduct a complete audit on all businesses in the county. That audit needs to determine the status of each employee working those establishments. If they are illegal they should be picked up and deported.

Posted by: Al | July 19, 2007 2:44 PM

I was doing a civics lesson with my daughter the other day and it was about Abraham Lincoln. It was all about his struggle with the slavery issue and how the words of the Declaration of Independence kept coming back to him that "all men are created equal". He was trying to figure out how to get across to the people that the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution apply to all men, not just who we choose and that those freedoms have got to be re-assessed and fought for from time to time.

This got me thinking about our current immigration struggle going on in this country. I cannot deny that I agree with Mr. Lincoln and that indeed, all men are created equal and should be treated as such. But the current struggle going on has less to do with treating immigrants as equals as it does with upholding the law. There will always be minorities in this country as long as there is immigration. Those minorities will always struggle. It happened 50 years ago with the Civil Rights struggle and 50 years before that with the immigration of the Italians, Irish, Polish and Russians. And eventually, those same struggling minorities will become the majority and will have to deal with a new set of minorities and will deal with the same issues the majority now deal with.

This country was and has always been built on immigration. We welcome it, it is what makes us unique. The difference in this situation is the fact that laws were broken in order to achieve the end result. And the question begs, if you are willing to break the law to achieve your own desires, what other laws are you willing to break? There are many people, like you, in many countries around the world who would love the chance to live here, but cannot just "walk across the border" as you do. They have to bide their time and obey the laws that we have in place for immigration. While we welcome immigrants to our country to eventually become citizens, we have to be careful what kinds of citizens you will eventually make. We want the kind of citizens that will uphold our laws and our Constitution, and it is also what you should want. That is what makes this country the greatest place on earth. The fact that men and women before us were willing to sacrifice and die for those rights is no simple thing to be shrugged off and ignored. Do not belittle their sacrifices by stating that we are being racist and biased because we will not "overlook" the fact that you are here illegally. Keeping this country strong and great relies on people who still see the same things in our constitution that our founding fathers saw over 200 hundred years ago. Being willing to stand up and fight for those rights is an admirable thing as long as it is done legally and by those who consider themselves true citizens of this great country.

Posted by: Michele | July 19, 2007 2:55 PM

Vic,
I have to assume that all people who break the law in one way or another has that predisposition to break the law.
Then don't forgive Scooter Libby. He will break the law again. All of us who speed above the allowed 65 miles per hour should be put in a special place because eventually wee will become shoplifters or rapists.
A lot of us come from families whose parents came to this country illegaly in the 1920s', I guess we got the right genes and we don't break the law anymore.
I guess that all the Italians that Al Capone brought illegaly are the ones we see represented in the Sopranos because crime perpetuates, right?

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 2:58 PM

"Get rid of all illegals. Doing this will allow wages to increase for the lower economic class AMERICANS. This will allow them to increase their income and not be held down by these illegals"
I guess that as long as you are American you are entitled to burden other Americans. Where is teh American dream for thius people? You will tell me that once you remove the illegal aliens, african americans who I have seen in Cincinnati and DC isolated from mainstream will come to work for us.
I see backs going back to the south and pick up tobacco in North carolina.
If you pay the money, they will you might say. You know what I doubt that any citizen will do it. It is not that a job is below us, it is just hard work and we reached a level of development that there are certain things that we just won't do.
The sad part is that we have a sector of our population competing for jobs with people who in most cases are illiterate in their own countries. If an American cannot get that job is not because of the salary. I think we need to be smart and americans should have the skills to do all the things that we outsource. The problem is that we keep blaiming others for our own shortcomings. We should blame Toyota for producing better cars than our gas-loving trucks.
We are not educating our people the way we should. Look at the DC school system. This is the capital of the most powerful nation in the world and we have one of the worst school systems in the country. I guess it is because the illegal aliens.

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 3:08 PM

While I agree that something must be done to get ahold of taxpayer services and local, state and national budgets, I am truly scared for the latino population. Why are they being ostracized so strongly, especially since the jobs they hold are ones that Americans would NEVER want in the first place? Would you want to wash out a garbage truck everyday? Clean gum off of city sidewalks? Pick grapes all day in the hot sun at a winery? I thought you wouldn't. Think about all of the stereotypes that now exist in America: Blacks are thugs; Arabs are terrorists; now ALL Latinos are illegals. See a pattern here? And those of you who don't seem to want to live in a utopia that doesn't exist. Racism and other -isms are alive and well, and latinos have become the latest victim.

Posted by: JanetJ | July 19, 2007 3:12 PM

One more thing... What do you call the children born to illegal immigrants? The US Constitution calls them citizens, because they were born here (as the document is presently interpreted). As these counties try to deny services to illegal immigrants, it becomes more difficult when the parent is illegal and the child is a citizen. I'm in favor of tighter immigration controls, but it is a minefield to do at anything other than the Federal level. Prince William and Loudoun will eventually find that they are opening a can of worms.

Posted by: Leesburger | July 19, 2007 3:15 PM

Much of the problem of illegal immigration could be solved by a three step approach: Reduce the waiting time for citizenship and expand the quotas; require a command of English in order to obtain citizenship; and provide enough free English classes for any non-English speaker who is in the waiting line. This is an investment that will eventually pay for itself many times over, as a command of the English language is 100% necessary (or should be) in order to function in our society.

P.S. They had many such English classes a hundred years ago for those "non-white" European immigrants such as Italians (who at the time were considered all a bunch of mafiosos), Irishmen (murderers all) and Jews (nothing but Shylocks), and within a generation or two those earlier "unassimilable" groups miraculously became "real Americans." But the xenophobic rhetoric never changes.

Once that's done, then go ahead and deport everyone else, because by these three actions you've simultaneously gotten rid of the racist stench that's been hanging over this entire debate, and you've also drawn the line between those border crossers who sincerely WANT to become fully assimilated Americans and those who just want our jobs and money under the table. IMO there is a clear moral distinction between those two categories of illegal immigrants, just as there is a clear moral distinction between those who are sincerely concerned about real issues like overcrowding and crime, and those who are just using those concerns as an argument to drive down all immigration, illegal or not.

One final thought: I wonder what sort of a speech the late President Reagan might have made in front of the sort of "Mexican Berlin Wall" that many people seem to favor. I can't imagine he would have been in favor of such a draconian and unintentionally symbolic measure.

Posted by: Andy | July 19, 2007 3:16 PM

And before any of you jump on my back about my comments, I have chosen to be a part of the solution for the past 12 years: I teach ESL to adult immigrants, who are mostly from Central America. Be part of the solution and stop complaining.

Posted by: JanetJ | July 19, 2007 3:18 PM

"And the question begs, if you are willing to break the law to achieve your own desires, what other laws are you willing to break? "
I love your lesson about Abraham Lincoln by the way.
I don't think you are racist. I think that deep inside your reaction is normal to what human being experience when they face someone who is different. It happens in other countries. Even in places such as Costa Rica where a lot of immigrants from Nicaragua came in hordes when the Sandinistas were in power.
In one of my post I have stated that a lot of people came here in the 20s illegaly and their kids didn't destroy this country. It is a crime what they did. I am not condoning that fact but it is either that or die in your country. Is that enough excuse, I don't think so because as you said it there are others in other lands that woould love to come to this country and they don't share a border with the US. What I don't like about your argument is the fact that you are telling us that once you commit a crime, there is nothing out there to deterred you. Second, Is this crime as bad as killing a person? Driving under the influence? Paris Hilton, Lindsat Lohan, Nichole Ritchie did it and they were given a second chance depite the fact that they coould have killed someone by DUI. According to your argument, they will commit a crime again so they should not be allowed to drive again.
We need to examine ourselves without the fear of finding something racist just because you have feelings against people who are different. Explore thos feelings and see if they are founded on something reasonable.

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 3:20 PM

Andy--What you suggest doesn't deal with the fundamental objection to illegal aliens, aside from the illegality of their actions: many of them lack the skills and education to rise above the working poor, which means that they are heavily subsidized and would be more so were they legalized.

I did try teaching ESL as a literacy tutor once. One of my students didn't last more than a session or two--he was Salvadoran and simply couldn't make the time.

Posted by: Ali | July 19, 2007 3:27 PM

Andy--What you suggest doesn't deal with the fundamental objection to illegal aliens, aside from the illegality of their actions: many of them lack the skills and education to rise above the working poor, which means that they are heavily subsidized and would be more so were they legalized.

I did try teaching ESL as a literacy tutor once. One of my students didn't last more than a session or two--he was Salvadoran and simply couldn't make the time.

Posted by: Ali | July 19, 2007 3:27 PM

Andy--What you suggest doesn't deal with the fundamental objection to illegal aliens, aside from the illegality of their actions: many of them lack the skills and education to rise above the working poor, which means that they are heavily subsidized and would be more so were they legalized.

I did try teaching ESL as a literacy tutor once. One of my students didn't last more than a session or two--he was Salvadoran and simply couldn't make the time.

And Janet J., are you telling us illegal aliens really WANT those jobs, and would want them IF THEY HAD ANY OTHER CHOICE? Agriculture keeps claiming they need more workers to pick crops, but we have 12-20 million illegals in the country already. Now, why aren't THEY in the fields? Could it be they prefer higher paying and less onerous jobs in fields such as construction?

Posted by: Ali | July 19, 2007 3:30 PM

I see that some people seem to think that securing our borders is racist. If that's the case, then every other country around the world must be racist, because the last time I checked, I can't get into other countries without a passport. I also couldn't exit or reenter this country without a passport. As I've said on other boards, sometimes I wish I could leave and sneak back in illegally, because in my county, it seems that illegals get more rights than I do, even though I'm a naturalized, legal, American-born, eighth generation American.
Since when did upholding an existing law become racist? Jim Crow laws were racist. Securing our borders is smart.

Posted by: YourStrawberry23 | July 19, 2007 3:30 PM

Andy--What you suggest doesn't deal with the fundamental objection to illegal aliens, aside from the illegality of their actions: many of them lack the skills and education to rise above the working poor, which means that they are heavily subsidized and would be more so were they legalized.

I did try teaching ESL as a literacy tutor once. One of my students didn't last more than a session or two--he was Salvadoran and simply couldn't make the time.

And Janet J., are you telling us illegal aliens really WANT those jobs, and would want them IF THEY HAD ANY OTHER CHOICE? Agriculture keeps claiming they need more workers to pick crops, but we have 12-20 million illegals in the country already. Now, why aren't THEY in the fields? Could it be they prefer higher paying and less onerous jobs in fields such as construction?

Posted by: Ali | July 19, 2007 3:30 PM

It does not take an MBA from Harvard or a 6 figure income to recognize that our government is derelict in their duties to the American citizens they swore to protect and serve. Its obvious, even to the untrained eye that our government is more interested in serving corporate and special interest needs than that of the citizens who elected them, fight their wars and pay their taxes.

Posted by: Lou Rosgen | July 19, 2007 3:31 PM

Michele,

You wrote: "There are many people, like you, in many countries around the world who would love the chance to live here, but cannot just "walk across the border" as you do. They have to bide their time and obey the laws that we have in place for immigration."

Are you serious? As has already been pointed out, complete with URL citation, as many as 40-50% of illegal immigrants are overstayers, who entered legally. Most of those entered not by a land border. There appears to be a myopia about this issue that it only involves people crossing from Spanish speaking countries from our South. I think this just reveals the underlying racism in the anti-immigrant position. In this area especially there are people who entered legally as tourists or students from all over the world. They didn't "bide their time" as you say.

Posted by: Leila | July 19, 2007 3:33 PM

AB--It doesn't matter whether or not illegal immigration is more or less serious than Paris Hilton's or Scooter Libby's. Both of them ended up paying the prescribed penalty. For illegal aliens, that penalty is to leave this country and if you want to come back, apply through legal channels.

Posted by: Ali | July 19, 2007 3:35 PM

AB --

I can't and won't speak for your ancestors -- but I can say that my parents raised me to uphold all of the laws and values of our society. Can I presume that in your world, we would all be free to break the laws as it suited our individual interests or circumstances?

Another facet of this issue is how much illegal immigrant crime is underreported or not reported at all. For example, Prince William County Police reported a 20 percent rise in robberies last year. More than 40 percent of these robberies were termed as "situationally-based crimes," in which the victims were primarily Hispanic immigrants targeted because they were perceived to be alone and carrying cash. (see http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/005943.pdf)

While not very PC, would it be fair to assume that many of the perpetrators were also Hispanic?


Posted by: Vic | July 19, 2007 3:36 PM

Wow Dora, that is pathetic. Dont worry, it won't always be this way.

Posted by: AgainstIllegalImmigration | July 19, 2007 3:39 PM

OH MY GOSH, NOOOO !!!
I though only some rich white people are racists!!!
(man. this blows my whole world view. oh well, i can handle cognitive dissonance )

BTW the way, the caption for the article on the front page sucks. The people who get most bent out of shape are liberals who can't deal with the majority wanting and sensible policy. They freak more than the "zenophobes" or whatever you call 'em.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 3:40 PM

WHAT EXACTLY DOES IT MEAN TO BE AN AMERICAN? What does an AMERICAN look like? White, suburbanite? African-American professional? Latino business owner? Arab university professor? Indian IT worker? Seems to me that the lines are blurred. We have all come from many different places around the world and have assimilated over the generations. But now that latinos are here in record numbers this is a problem? America is so funny...

Posted by: JanetJ | July 19, 2007 3:42 PM

I'm not a racist! My maid is a Filipina!

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 3:45 PM

I think that a lot of the problems here start by categorizing people into different groups. You are against illegal aliens then you are racist. We need to talk about these issues and examine the facts. If we determine that we need to send them back, then there will be consequences. I think that the "working poor" will have to do it. There will be consequences in terms of some goods being more expensive. We will have to deal with that then and get used to pay the real price for certain things.

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 3:46 PM

Janet J: "Why are they being ostracized so strongly, especially since the jobs they hold are ones that Americans would NEVER want in the first place? Would you want to wash out a garbage truck everyday? Clean gum off of city sidewalks? Pick grapes all day in the hot sun at a winery?"

Honey, for the right price, most working Americans will do just about anything legal. I know YOU wouldn't do those jobs, but, then, you do not have to; daddy will pick up your bills. Get the illegal aliens out, and supply and demand will work their magic, and salaries will rise to a point that even lazy rich white girls like yourself will think about picking grapes.

But, sadly, daddy might not be able to afford your gardner anymore.

Posted by: Jerry B | July 19, 2007 3:47 PM

Good Lord! Now the Washington Compost sees anyone who disagrees with amnesty as beer-swilling trash. Anyone who continues to subscribe to this rag is nuts.

Posted by: muskrat | July 19, 2007 3:52 PM

Good Lord! Now the Washington Compost sees anyone who disagrees with amnesty as beer-swilling trash. Anyone who continues to subscribe to this rag is nuts.

Posted by: muskrat | July 19, 2007 3:52 PM

AB-thanks for putting a rational thought into this discussion. The reason why I have said what I did today is because it seems to me there are racial undertones in this debate, and everyone is so quick to dismiss that. Think about how many other illegal immigrants from countries other than Central and South America are here, but are not really pursued as forcefully as latinos. We as a country need to heal our wounds before we are truly able to move on.

Posted by: JanetJ | July 19, 2007 3:52 PM

Vic,
Why do you have to put me in a cvategory that in my world I condone crime?
See what the crime was: cross the border without documents or illegaly.
I know it is a crime but we allow people to continue being senators after hiring a prostitute. Paris went to jail and pay her debt, that is true but her sentence to spend a couple of days at jail is nothing compared to send these people back to their countries. They have families here. Well that is not our problem because they chose to break the law.
My main point is that there is a system in which you pay for what you did. That is fair. Send them back if that is what the law says, but please don't go as far as saying that they will always be criminals. Think about all the people in US History who committed crimes and after paying the debt to society or not being caught, they never did anything stupid again. I don't think you are racist and I don't put you in a category. I just don't like the fact that you eqate the fact that once a criminal, always a criminal. For some people it is as easy as ask forgiveness from God and the illegality of teh act is forgiven. I guees God just forgive certain personal issues but he doesn't grant amnesty.

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 3:55 PM

"We have to heal our wounds" really means HANDS OFF MY (illegal, underpaid)MAID!!!!! I do not want to pay an American a living wage...

Posted by: Jerry B | July 19, 2007 3:57 PM

For one JerryB, I am African-American. And my parents grew up poor but worked hard for my brother and I to become good, law-abiding citizens. Now both of US are married with families, we worked our way through college--daddy didn't give me anything--so through my humbling experiences I have learned to give back to the community by teaching ESL. So don't go there with me.

Posted by: JanetJ | July 19, 2007 3:58 PM

Ali-
Not everyone has the skills to rise above non-working poor status, but the "poor" part of that description is often in great part a function of the cost of housing and health care and the decline of unions. There are always plenty of bums among any group of people, but with a strict English language requirement for citizenship the percentage of bums among new immigrants shouldn't be disproportionate to the general population.

If we wanted to add a provision denying welfare benefits (though obviously not education for their children) to new citizens for the first five years, that might serve to screen out those who would be a net drain on society. But the problems of the native born working poor have a lot more to do with the stagnation of blue collar wages, the decline of unions, and the lack of a good health care system than they do with that alien horde swimming across the Rio Grande.

Posted by: Andy | July 19, 2007 3:59 PM

There is no Salvadoran-Mexican/black coalition, and there never will be. There are tensions in many black middle class Ward 4 neighborhoods with Salvadoran illegals/legals. I am seeing my middle class neighborhood turn into a Salvadoran barrio. I applaud the legislators in Loundon and Prince William Counties for dening services to illegal aliens. The liberal District of Columiba and Montgomery County governments need to do the same thing, but they want. Both municipalities are sancturary territories for illegal aliens.

Posted by: Ward4DC | July 19, 2007 4:00 PM

muskrat,
I don'ty think that opposing illegal immigration makes you a racist but you come to the discussion and without facts decide that the rest of us are nuts.
This issue is very emotional and we need to decide with all the facts in front of us (and not the Luo Dobbs rethoric of What part of ilegal immigrant yo don't understand?).
We need to get educated about our myths and think about our perceptions. We know the way that people talk about immigrants in the past. Read the 1910 papers and see what some people were saying: the italians won't assimilate, they don't speak english, the kids are criminals, they are sending all their money to Italy (270 million in 1917 if I am right).
Do we really know these people? How many times have you had a decent conversation with then? Is it just that you don't talk with criminals?
A lot of those kids are americans and we will have to get used to see them in the future.

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 4:03 PM

I know quite a few of "these people". 99.9% are decent, hard working people. Unfortunately, they depress the wages of working class American Citizens. So they need to go home. That simple.

Posted by: Jerry B | July 19, 2007 4:06 PM

Jerry B,

It might surprise you to learn that working and middle class wages have been stagnating since about 1970, which long predates the problems associated with mass illegal bordercrossing.

JanetJ,

Thanks for your comments. If there were more like you the world would be a far better place. Action talks and BS walks.

Posted by: Andy | July 19, 2007 4:07 PM

The elitist apologists for illegal and hyper immigration are the one injecting racial overtones: "If you oppose us, you are a racist xenophobe!".

Go jump in a lake you Bush/Kennedy lovers! Go build your monarchy in the Cayman Islands where your money is.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 4:09 PM

Ward4DC,
You said it: Legal and Illegal. Get rid of the illegals and what you have; those Salvadorans who have papers. They pay taxes and works as hard as you do. Or is it just that in El Salvador all the people are criminals and they are just seat around thinkig what crime they will commit next?
There are places in Chicago where you see Black, Mexican, Salvadoran, Guatemalan, and Puerto Rican coalitions. Why not here? In places where you work together you get to have more power. Why do wqe fight among these groups. i guess is because the salvadoran will make your neighborhood a barrio (they don't call barrios their neighborhoods but again you put people into categories)

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 4:10 PM

The liberal District of Columiba and Montgomery County governments need to do the same thing, but they want. Both municipalities are sancturary territories for illegal aliens.
-----

Umm, as opposed to Arlington?

Alexandria? Fairfax? PG County? Loudon County? Prince William County?

It's like... about 3 years ago someone told me that all the Chinese immigrants live around Chinatown in DC. No, the biggest Asian communities are in Rockville and Fairfax.

I see far more Latin laborers in the suburbs than I do in DC. way more. Not even remotely close. All the Latin laborers moved out of my DC neighborhood when the rental properties turned over around 2000-2003. There may be one or two houses left.

Whether they're legal or illegal, I'm not going to say because when it comes down to someone coming in legally and overstaying their visa, where do you even start with identifying them?

So come back to reality on your MoCo and DC impressions... MoCo has the largest percentage of PhDs in the area, so if these immigrants are PhDs then more power to them.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2007 4:11 PM

Thanks, Andy.

Posted by: JanetJ | July 19, 2007 4:12 PM

Andy, 1970s is when massive illegal alien movement started. Reagan wanted to crush the unions and illegal aliens tool was one of his special weapons. Liberal Ivy league elitists supported it because they could pretend they were in solidarity with "oppressed brown skinned peoples".

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 4:13 PM

because the last time I checked, I can't get into other countries without a passport.
-----

Canada let me in without a passport.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2007 4:13 PM

Ali,
I guess that the Salvadoran who didn't have the time to learn English just wanted to go out there and continue commiting crimes.
The fact that you saw one of them allows you to make inferences about the rest of them.
How would you solve the problem? Why don't we start brainstoming ideas? What would you do and how would you deal with the consequences?

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 4:15 PM

I am not impacted by illegal immigration and no my family has no history of Ellis Island as slaves where brought in as chattle. However, even if I had ancestors who came here illegally, that was then. This is now. If it was wrong then, then it was wrong now.

Posted by: DCer | July 19, 2007 4:18 PM

I am not impacted by illegal immigration and no my family has no history of Ellis Island as slaves where brought in as chattle. However, even if I had ancestors who came here illegally, that was then. This is now. If it was wrong then, then it was wrong now.

Posted by: Tired of it all | July 19, 2007 4:18 PM

"The elitist apologists for illegal and hyper immigration are the one injecting racial overtones: "If you oppose us, you are a racist xenophobe!".

Go jump in a lake you Bush/Kennedy lovers! Go build your monarchy in the Cayman Islands where your money is"

So if we stop calling you Xenophobe and we move to the Cayman Islands, the issue of illegal immigration will be solved, right?
Is that your proposal to address this issue?
Give solutions, think about facts, and talk without attacking each other. Is this the way that Virginia solve segregation?

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 4:19 PM

"The elitist apologists for illegal and hyper immigration are the one injecting racial overtones: "If you oppose us, you are a racist xenophobe!".

Go jump in a lake you Bush/Kennedy lovers! Go build your monarchy in the Cayman Islands where your money is"

So if we stop calling you Xenophobe and we move to the Cayman Islands, the issue of illegal immigration will be solved, right?
Is that your proposal to address this issue?
Give solutions, think about facts, and talk without attacking each other. Is this the way that Virginia solved segregation?

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 4:19 PM

"The elitist apologists for illegal and hyper immigration are the one injecting racial overtones: "If you oppose us, you are a racist xenophobe!".

Go jump in a lake you Bush/Kennedy lovers! Go build your monarchy in the Cayman Islands where your money is"

So if we stop calling you Xenophobe and we move to the Cayman Islands, the issue of illegal immigration will be solved, right?
Is that your proposal to address this issue?
Give solutions, think about facts, and talk without attacking each other. Is this the way that Virginia solved segregation?

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 4:19 PM

After reading this article and comments, I see most citizens are fed up with illegal aliens destroying and changing the landscape of their municipalities. Illegal immigration is the most serious domestic issue facing the United States. Loudoun County Board of Supervisors did the right thing by passing legislation to stop illegal aliens from using services in their municipality. We have a Ward 5 D.C. Councilman, Harry Thomas, Jr., who's gotten $500,000.00 to build a "Day Labor Site" in Washington, D.C. Myself and other D.C. taxpayers, voters, and U.S. citizens are outraged. Many of these Latino men hanging around the northeast Home Depot are not residents of the District of Columbia. Most reside in Maryland, and many are illegal. I have written to Mayor Fenty, the Ward 4 Councilwoman, and the 5 At-Large Councilmembers who represent me informing them, I don't support using tax dollars to build this site for non D.C. residents and mostly illegal aliens. I am seeing my black middle class neighborhood being transformed into a El Salvadoran barrio, and longtime Ward 4 residents are outraged. I am paying high taxes to live in D.C., and I don't want a bunch of third world illegal aliens moving in to destroy it regardless of race, color, or ethnicity. I don't care what race or ethnicity they maybe. If these were millions of blacks coming here from Africa or millions coming here from Europe, AB, La Raza, Casa of Maryland, MALDEF, and LULAC would not support these groups to get citizenship or amnesty. AB and others are only supporting one ethnic group of people on this issue, Spanish speakers. AB, most blacks have brown skin, but they are referred to as black. There is no Salvadoran-Central American/black coalition in Washington, D.C. There are tensions between these groups all over the country. I find many Salvadorans to be racist against blacks and Afro-Latinos. AB, I have been called the N word in Spanish many times here in Washington, D.C. by Salvadorans and other Central Americans, not knowing, I too speak Spanish. I have many Spanish speaking friends in the D.C. area who are Puerto Ricans, Afro Cubanos, Dominicans, and Panamanians. All of them are legal or U.S. citizens. I share an African history with all these groups. If they came into the country illegally, I would want them deported too, with the exception of Puerto Ricans, because Boricuas are United States citizens. I concur with BlueDogDemocrat, I pledge an allegiance to the United States of America and not to any foreign government. Speaking out against illegal immigration, open borders supporters will refer to one as being a xenophobe or racist. Thank God for Lou Dobbs and talk radio. By the way AB, on most black talk radio shows, the majority of black listeners don't support amnesty or citizenship to an estimate 20 million people. Congressman Tom Tancredo was the only Republican to speak at the NAACP convention, and he received a standing ovation. Congressman Tancredo was on black radio talk show host Joe Madison (Black Eagle) this morning. Joe Madison told the Congressman, his mostly black callers supports him on the illegal immigration issue. Thank God for black Los Angeles talk show host Terry Anderson for speaking out against illegal immigration and the affects it's having on black neighborhoods in Los Angeles. Terry would be on time for you AB. Why don't you call in on his show on Sunday/Monday at 12:00 a.m.?
www.theterryandersonshow.com

Posted by: Ward4DC | July 19, 2007 4:23 PM

What jobs are these illegals taking? It's mostly the crap jobs Americans won't do anymore. Do you really think that Americans would pick lettuce all day in the sun at any price?

In DC you simply can't get Americans to do manual labor anymore. I'm in the construction trade, and I can't count the number of times native-born Americans have simply refused to do work they deem 'beneath them', no matter what the pay.

As for crime, there are quite a few studies out there showing that aside from the crime of being illegal immigrants, illegals as a class commit considerably less crime than their American counterparts.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 4:26 PM

I've been living in this country for 10 years and the only time I broke the law happened the day in which I entered this country without authorization. Do you think that every action that I perfom constitutes an offense? I've never broke into your house and steal your property. You have never feed me or taken care of me when I was sick. And, eventhough you never helped me to pay for education, I mentored elementary school kids with learning defficiencies, at-risk high school students, and illiterate adults.
If you take a look at my resume, you'll hire me without asking questions. However, ask me for my social security card and resident card, and you'll despise me.
Many illegal immigrants, as most of the people like to call them, believe in education and high values. Not all of us are the delinquents, miscreants, and villains that many people want to portrait.

Posted by: Educated illegal alien | July 19, 2007 4:27 PM


"I know quite a few of "these people". 99.9% are decent, hard working people. Unfortunately, they depress the wages of working class American Citizens. So they need to go home. That simple."
JerryB,
I don't think the market will regulate itself. Why do you think that the working poor are still poor? is the market working its wonders. I don't understand how we can justify the schools we have in DC. people said it, there are not many illegal aliens in the city. Think about cities such as cincinnati where the minority group is mostly african americans. I don't see illegal aliens depressing salaries, just the wroking poor without the skills to deal with the market regulating itself. There are some supermarkets that still have the 70s' style because the market doesn't seem to care. I wish that getting rid of illegals will solve all those problems. The jobs won't come back from China or India. The schools won't get better in DC (there are not many latinos in some of our schools and still the invisible hand of the market hasn't fixed it).
Any ideas?

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 4:30 PM

Such hate towards liberals, such hate towards immigrants. I realize the past 6 years have been divisive, (to say the least), but look at what the republicans in charge have done, er, not done. Liberal, to the masses, used to mean a good thing - freedom, free thinking, etc. I hear people at work (engineers) complain about this immigration issue - one guy is upset that McDonalds has spanish speaking employees, taking jobs away from his kids - when I ask him if his daughter would want to work there... I get a blank stare and then, well no, not really. For the most part, the jobs taken are those that americans dont want to take, and wont - they would rather get unemployment monies instead. Also, these people, overall, are very hard working people, with the mentality of the US in the 50s - man works, woman stays home with kids. It would be sad if the public preschools do fill up, but its also sad to me that rich white people feel oppressed. Its really hard being a rich white guy in the US...

Posted by: Michael | July 19, 2007 4:32 PM

AB

I am not categorizing anyone... nor am I saying that criminal behavior is congenital... or in any other way pre-ordained.

All I am saying is that each day, I grow increasingly concerned about all of the lawlessness and disorder that has descended on Prince William County and surrounding regions.

And yes, I will assert that much of it is directly attributable to the growing numbers of illegals in the county.

I am also not the first to observe that our courtrooms seem to be overflowing with murderers, gang members, rapists, thieves, muggers and all sorts of other thugs -- and the dominant language for many of these proceedings is Spanish.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2007 4:33 PM

Ward4DC:

Exactly how are the day workers at Home Depot on Brentwood Ave going to ruin that neighborhood?

That neighborhood already sucks. It's a very high crime area. You can't walk any of the commercial strips without getting bum rushed for spare change (try walking down Rhode Island Avenue and then tell me that the neighborhood is doing just fine). There's litter everywhere. I routinely see native-born DC residents urinating in public, drinking in public, trying to break into cars and property, etc. The youngsters in the neighborhood are surly, drop trash everywhere, and don't seem likely to actually get a job anytime soon.

So how exactly are the day workers going to ruin the area?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 4:34 PM

"Jobs Americans won't do" = elitist myth

How come wages are going down in job fields where illegals are employed?

Wouldn't the wages be going up in those fields if nobody wanted to do them? Decreased in the supply of labor results in the increase price of labor? Econ 101?

How about special programs to target doctors and lawyers and journalists for special competition for foreign guest worker and illegal alien labor? They make lots of money so there must be a shortage of their labor. Any special Senate bills to lower their wages?

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 4:37 PM

All immigrants should be treated the same way... either kicked out or allowed to stay, or pay a fine or whatever.

Just be sure the law/penalty affects ALL illegals and not just the Latino kind.

People are so damn racist when they think of illegals they just think of the Latino kind.

Remember this: All of you white folks are the original illegal immigrants. Why do you all go back to europe?

Posted by: May | July 19, 2007 4:38 PM

This reply is to DCer:
Regarding immigrants entering the country thru Ellis Island: my Sicilian grandfather once told me (I never forgot this) that only arrivals from ship's steerage had to go thru Ellis Island. Passengers that arrived in New York via first, second or third class could simply walk off the ship's gangway and into New York City, accompanied by relatives already in America, according to my grandfather. He also told me that those who traveled in steerage and who then were "documented" there also had to prove that they had U.S.$25 on hand (a lot of money for poor people in the early 1900s) in addition to not having any illnesses, etc. But my point, DCer, is that not every European immigrant to America back in the early 1900s is documented via Ellis Island because only the poor immigrants were made to go thru Ellis Island. But all of these European immigrants, whether documented via Ellis Island or not, were made to assimilate to the American culture, to the point where the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of these LEGAL immigrants speak English as their first language and in some cases as their only language. Yet today, illegal immigrants have bi-lingual signage at stores (encouraging them to NOT assimilate), and they even have a "public square" in a strip mall every Saturday in Manassas, a square that caters to its patrons ONLY in Spanish on every Saturday (people call it Little Salvador). This unwillingness to assimilate but still take advantage of the economy of the USA is just wrong and I applaud the PW County BD of Supervisors for trying to address the problems of illegal immigration in our county. And, another point I would like to make is this: having recently had the misfortune to have to fight a traffic ticket in Prince William County Traffic Court, I can tell you that more than half of the cases that were handled in the nearly three hours I waited for my case to be addressed (which I won, thankfully) were conducted with a court-appointed Spanish translator for the many defendents that spoke no English.
Many of the defendents had no valid drivers license, and one case in particular was funny to hear but also is a symbol of the problems created by illegals: the judge asked the defendent his name, and the defendent gave a different name then the one in the docket. The judge asked him which name was correct, and the defendent said the name he was now providing. The judge said: "then why did you give the different name to the police officer", and the defendent said (via the court-appointed translator) that "that's one of the names that I use". The people present laughed at that statement, but it's really not funny - it's sad.

I am fairly liberal on a lot of issues, but i think that the influx of illegal immigrants unwilling to assimilate to American culture, and to do so legally, need to be found and deported and certainly no "amnesty" should be provided to them.

Posted by: Manassas stepdad | July 19, 2007 4:39 PM

I meant: "Why don't you all go back to europe?"

Posted by: May | July 19, 2007 4:40 PM

ZYZ:

No, it's not an elitist myth.

We're mostly talking about menial or trade labor positions.

Tell me, have you recently tried to hire people to do manual labor?

I have, repeatedly. So perhaps I know what I'm talking about.

Construction and trades jobs in DC pay VERY well. A decent plumber here can make $200,000 a year. An entry level construction guy can make $25 an hour or more.

Yet we can't find Americans to do it. Especially the entry level jobs.

After all, what's to stop legal Americans from hanging out at the Home Depot and offering their services legally? But I guarantee you I can find a good number of Americans within a few blocks of the Home Depot, drinking liquor on the streetcorner all day, dealing drugs all day, or panhandling all day.

Do you really think Americans are going to to grunt construction work, to work in the agriculture industry, to be maids and commercial building janitorial people?

Really?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 4:43 PM

Hillman, I refuse to comment to you, because you are a white gay man who hates blacks. If you don't like blacks, why do you live around them in D.C.?

Posted by: WARD4DC | July 19, 2007 4:46 PM

Manassas stepdad, I agree with you 100%.

Posted by: WARD4DC | July 19, 2007 4:47 PM

I agree that immigrants should assimilate and learn English.

But having stores and customs that continue to be specific to your culture is hardly a lack of assimilation.

Funny how no one complains when it's, say, Korean people that have signs in Korean in their ethnic grocery, or when the Chinese restaurant has a menu in both English and Chinese.

And does anyone think that even "American" cultures are assimilated? I guarantee you that there are tons of stores and businesses in DC where I as a gay white male are not welcome. And there are surely places in Manassas where blacks or gays aren't welcome.

So if we're going to preach 'assimilation' then the rest of society needs to be willing to actually treat their fellow human as equal.

Until then, 'assimilation' isn't actually an attainable goal.

But immigrants should learn English, if only for logistical reasons.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 4:49 PM

Hillman, you have never had anything positive to say about blacks. You have bashed black ministers, because they don't support gay marriage. You think all blacks are hoodlums and commit crimes. All the blacks I know are educated and middle class. None of them have ever committed a crime or been incarcerated. Everybody can have an opinion on a subject, but don't be hateful and call people names.

Posted by: Ward4DC | July 19, 2007 4:51 PM

WARD4DC:

Accusing me of being racist doesn't really answer the question, does it?

How about answering the question instead of playing your very tired race card?

I asked you a very specific relevant question.

So why no answer?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 4:52 PM

Manassas stepdad,

The problems you cite are real, but they have far less to do with legal status than they do with the willingness to assimilate. "Educated Illegal Alien" is a perfect example of why mere illegal status is not the real issue. A country that wants solutions rather than ventilation would do its best to help ALL immigrants to assimilate. Marcie Syms says that "an educated consumer is our best customer." Likewise, the more we can help people assimilate into the broader culture, the faster the problems associated with all types of immigration will diminish. If you want to deport illegals, at least begin with those who by their actions seem to refuse to assimilate. Don't throw out the good with the bad.

Posted by: Andy | July 19, 2007 4:53 PM

Gay men beware, you are not allowed to talk about immigration.
Only straight people, please!
I guess that when gay white men stop talking about immigration, all the problems of the african american neighborhhods will be solved. You have to hear yoursel WARD4DC

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 4:55 PM

AB, bite me. As I stated, this guy has never had anything positive to say about blacks in D.C. His comments have always been racist or negative. By the way AB, tell that to black gays and lesbians, and they will tell you the racism they endure from the white gay community.

Posted by: Ward4DC | July 19, 2007 4:59 PM

I have attacked ALL preachers that denigrate gay people and equal rights.

And please point out even ONE post I've made that says all blacks are hoodlums.

Quite the contrary. I've repeatedly posted posts supporting true equality in America.

In short, you are lying. And I'm tired of it. You are impugning my good name, and I'm sick of it.

Provide some proof of my alleged racism or apologize.

I'll be waiting.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 4:59 PM

Be gone Satan!!!!

Posted by: Ward4DC | July 19, 2007 5:01 PM

Ward4DC:

That's the best you've got?

That's a shame really. I try to have a substantive discussion, but all you want to do is call me a racist (a charge you cannot substantiate and that I find very offensive).

Really, I was hoping you could do better than that.

But at least it does make your entire argument look stupid, so in some ways you've done quite a good service.

Your offensive playing of the race card and your refusal to actually debate makes your entire cause look suspect at best.

It sucks when you're called on the carpet for lying, doesn't it?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 5:05 PM

Ward4DC...you say that all the blacks you know are educated and middle class. None of them have ever committed a crime or been incarcerated. May I ask what fantasy land you live in? According to the census bureau, 3 out of 4 black males have spent time in prison. I guess you must be talking about some place other than America.

Posted by: Joe Nash | July 19, 2007 5:06 PM

Anyone seen an ad that says "Wanted: plumbers, will pay $200K/year". How about "Entry level construction workers: $25/hour?"

(Snicker)

Here's what people actually make : http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/sp/ncbl0910.pdf

Construction workers average about $19/hour. Starting unskilled construction workers do not make $25/hour unless it's like removing asbestos or something.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 5:06 PM

What's the difference between gays and blacks? If gays move into your neighborhood, your property prices go up. If blacks move into your neighborhood, your property prices go down, that is if you're lucky enough to not get robbed or raped first.

Posted by: Joe Nash | July 19, 2007 5:09 PM

Joe Nash, where did you get your information from? I am married to a black man, and I have three black adult sons. None of them have ever been to jail!!!! All four have Doctorate degrees. You comments are very racists Joe Nash.

Posted by: BrendaMartin | July 19, 2007 5:12 PM

Correction: Your comments are very racist Joe Nash.

Posted by: BrendaMartin | July 19, 2007 5:13 PM

XYZ:

My plumber has an eight bedroom mansion in the burbs. He charges more than $100 an hour. That's more than a lot of lawyers and accountants charge.

Going rate for a day's modestly skilled construction labor in DC (meaning you're at least capable of working a hammer and hanging a piece of drywall on the wall without it falling down), varying somewhat by the actual job, is about $200. That's $25 an hour, even more when you consider that many of these guys never report half their income to the IRS.

How much experience do you have in hiring trades in DC? Enough to contradict my years of experience, and the experiences of all the other guys in DC I know?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 5:13 PM

Hillman, you and your head in the sand duPont circle buddies are out to lunch. Give the Dem party back to to the working class and go join the Mark Foley Republican Party where you belong.

Posted by: Notepadcutpaste | July 19, 2007 5:16 PM

Doctorate degrees from Devry, I assume. Are all of them very fast runners?

Posted by: Joe Nash | July 19, 2007 5:18 PM

And I'm not suggesting illegal immigration is a good thing.

I'm just saying I know why it exists.

I don't know what the solution is. But pretending that Americans would do this work if only the immigrants would leave is simply not true.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 5:18 PM

Notepad:

Your Dupont and Mark Foley reference is noted (although somewhat stereotypical and just not all that funny), but it doesn't really further the debate here.

Do you have anything substantive to say here?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 5:21 PM

Joe Nash, I attended Columbia University and Georgetown Medical School. By the way, I am never been in jail, nor any of my friends. You views are racist by saying, most black men have been to jail.

On the issue of illegal immigration, I am against it. All illegals should be deported back to their native countries regardless of race.

Posted by: KappaNupe | July 19, 2007 5:37 PM

Kappa:

Assume we deport the 15 million or so illegals.

Who exactly is going to do those 15 million jobs?

Who is going to pick the lettuce, work in the Burger King, do the construction labor?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 5:40 PM

Joe Nash, I attended Columbia University and Georgetown University Medical School. I have never been in jail, nor any of my black friends. Your comments are racists and proves you are an idiot.

On the issue of illegal immigration. I don't support it, and all illegals should be deported back to their countries regardless of race.

Posted by: KappaNupe | July 19, 2007 5:40 PM

Hillman, who do your think did these jobs before? My grandfather, grandmother, father, mother, uncles, aunts, and cousins picked cotton and primed tobacco in South Carolina and North Carolina back in the day.

Posted by: KappaNupe | July 19, 2007 5:43 PM

KappaNupe,
Stop talking nonsense and keep on cleaning the kitchen floor.

Posted by: pep319 | July 19, 2007 5:44 PM

pep319 aka Joe Nash, please grow up and stop using different names on here. You are spineless, and you would never make a racist remark to any black person's face. You and other racists hide behind these blogs and make racist comments. Not only are you a coward, you are a loser too!!!!

Posted by: KappaNupe | July 19, 2007 5:50 PM

Hillman, there are outliers in many normal distributions. Now, isn't "your plumber" really the owner of a plumbing services firm who hires other plumbers to do most of the work? Yes, savy small businessmen do make $200K/year in a good year. They also take risks and have huge liabilities.

Your personal anecdotes are charming. We can't make national policy to make you happy.

Again, here's what people actually make : http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/sp/ncbl0910.pdf

Master plumber make on average $23/hour. The plumber's helpers make $12/hour.

How your magic wand comes up with $200K/year for plumbers is beyond me.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 5:54 PM

Kappa:

You are right. That's exactly how it worked, back in the day.

But that day is gone.

My own father picked up trash by the side of the road to feed his eight kids. Even though he held several advanced degrees.

When I was a kid I had my first job at age 14, baling hay. I worked full time flipping burgers through high school and college.

We've raised a generation of spoiled kids that won't do these jobs.

It's not a black/white thing. It applies universally.

And our economy doesn't demand that Americans do these jobs. Unemployment is very low, and nearly anyone that wants it can have a reasonably decent career in the US that doesn't involve years of manual labor.

So the question remains. If the immigrants all leave, who is going to do these jobs?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 5:58 PM

Capital investment can substitute for labor. Productivity gains can make up for lack of unskilled labor. Hillman, I don't care if you have to mow your own lawn or even have to hire ... *shock* ... an American teenager for an outrageous amount. The market will settle what jobs get done and what jobs don't. Don't freak out about it.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 6:04 PM

XYZ:

My plumber is a sole practitioner.

As is my electrician.

Both make more money per year than I do.

I know both of them personally. They live much nicer lives, financially, than I do.

I never said those rates are standard across the country.

I'm only familiar with DC.

But the construction trades across the country are in very high demand, and have been for a decade.

I routinely see stories about development companies begging people to move to, say, Montana, just so they'll have workers. And they are paying very healthy salaries.

And it's not just the wages. I often can't get Americans to do the work at any rate. I sometimes get charged the equivelant of about $40 an hour for tile and construction jobs. And they show up late, don't show up at all, have astonishing attitude, very low work ethic, questionable skills, etc.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 6:09 PM

The 'market' is exactly why we have illegals. They saw an opportunity that Americans weren't taking. So they came here.

And our economy would collapse if we started paying fast food workers $15 or $20 an hour, which is what it would take, or construction workers double and triple what they make now.

It'd make the cost of new housing skyrocket. It'd make most provision industries like agriculture unaffordable.

In short, we've always had an economic underclass. Usually they are immigrants. That's the way it's always been. It's just we've refused to acknowledge this latest iteration for the past couple of decades, so now the problem is a bit out of control.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 6:14 PM

XYZ makes a very smart point about capital investment. Most of the gains in productivity in agriculture have been due to capital investment and invention. Using a large supply of artificially cheap manual labor depresses capital investment and invention, thereby decreasing the overall productivity of the industry.

Additionally, by suppressing wages in the short term, there may be long term consequences as well. There are serious questions about the long-term viability of the high technology business sector in this country because American universities are not producing enough qualified engineers to meet the demand by industry. Industry has responded in two key ways--importing labor and exporting work. The importing of lower-paid H1B workers suppresses wages and creates a negative feedback on wages. In the short term the labor pool is increased by the additional workers, but it doesn't address the underlying problem in the same way that increased wages do.

The exporting of production in high tech has led to a net positive for the global industry, but at the expense of the national labor market. Places like India and China are having booming economies financed largely by American-based international corporations (IBM, Oracle, Microsoft) who pay less in wages in these countries. Only some of the profits make it back into the US economy as profit (and then only for the US investors) while the bulk of the money builds the economies of India and Asia.

Posted by: Leesburger | July 19, 2007 6:44 PM

Citizens' Rally - Saturday July 21 -Derwood MD Day Laborer Center

Montgomery County Executive Ike Leggett has just released a report on the alleged "success" of the new Derwood Day Laborer Center. Suspect labor statistics, no financial data, no surrounding community impact statement, and lacking an independent audit, this document was clearly drafted by Leggett's partners at the pro-illegal alien organization CASA of Maryland. CASA manages the Derwood and other taxpayer funded Day Laborer Centers in Maryland. The same CASA that: refuses to conduct background checks on alien day laborers; published a national handbook telling illegal aliens how to avoid law enforcement officials; demands that Maryland Police not enforce federal warrants for wanted illegal aliens or assist federal immigration authorities.

It's time to end this waste and abuse of Maryland taxpayer dollars. It's time to stop Governor O'Malley, Montgomery County Executive Leggett and their partners at CASA of Maryland from aiding and abetting businesses openly breaking U.S. immigration laws. End all taxpayer funding for CASA! No new taxes or budget cuts to subsidize CASA's questionable activities! Join us for a Citizens' Rally at the Derwood Day Laborer Center, Saturday, July 21, 8am-11am. www.HelpSaveMaryland.com. Stand up and make a difference for your family, neighbors and Maryland!

Posted by: Brad | July 19, 2007 6:54 PM

I think I understand this now.

1.) Americans are lazy and will not do certain jobs.
2.) I can just walk onto a construction site and be offered $25 an hour, no experience needed.
3.) It is racist to point out how crime increases in areas like PW that have seen massive influxes of illegals.
4.) Our economy will "collapse" if McDonalds cannot get minimum wage workers.

SO, white and black Americans are a bunch of lazy racists living in an economy whose health depends on McDonalds, and where illegal aliens bring DOWN the crime rate.

Seems clear to me.

Posted by: Jerry B | July 19, 2007 6:58 PM

Brad:

I'll ask you the same question. Once you've deported all the immigrants, who is going to do all the unwanted manual labor jobs?

Please, be specific in your response.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 6:59 PM

I'll be there, but, to protest against Help Save Maryland!

Posted by: Carrick319 | July 19, 2007 6:59 PM

Hillman, maybe we can draft a bunch of GUPPYS like you into the army to do them.

Posted by: Jerry B | July 19, 2007 7:01 PM

Actually, Hillman, on a more serious note, THE SAME PEOPLE who did them 30 years ago will do them. American Citizens. Earning a semi-liveable wage again.

Posted by: Jerry B | July 19, 2007 7:04 PM

Jerry B:

Your comments are misrepresentations of what I've said. Except for Point 1, which is true, except I never meant to infer that all Americans are lazy. Some are quite hard working. Just not nearly enough to satisfy the demands of our capitalist system, in the lower skill less desireable occupations.

And please point me to the data that show that illegals commit more crime than Americans do.

If you'd like to discuss this substantively, without the sarcasm, I'm up for that.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 7:07 PM

Hillman,
I don't see people answering your questions. What do we do when the illegal aliens are gone?
I think that is very naive to think that the same people who did back in the day will do it now. I don't see them waiting in line and getting in line to fight for those jobs. What do they do now anyway? Suddenly after the last immigrant are deported, they will leave whatever they are doing and work for McDonalds.

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 7:19 PM

AB:

You're right. You don't see anyone answering the question.

That's because there is no answer. The proposal to deport 15 million people just isn't workable. Sure, it makes people feel good. But it's not workable.

I'm not some firebrand immigrant-defender. But I keep asking this simple question, and the hard core immigrant-bashers have NEVER provided a satisfactory answer.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 7:30 PM

Jerry B:

And what would you consider a reasonable DC-area wage for, say, a grunt construction worker? A lettuce picker? A mushroom grower (literally an excrement-filled job). A maid service that cleans offices all night?

And how many people do you know personally that would do those jobs?

Do you really think there are 15 million Americans ready and willing to do these jobs? Really?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 7:33 PM

Hillman, if the demand curve for labor and the supply curve don't intersect, the work is unfeasable. Example: I want to visit the moon. It costs $40 billion to go the moon. I only want to pay $10K. So ... this economic activity doesn't happen. If you can only pay 50 cents for McDonald's hambugers but it costs them $1 to make them, then you eat beans at home instead. The answer to your question "who will do the jobs" is some jobs will have to demand more wages to remain viable, some jobs will disappear. So what?

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 7:52 PM

XYZ,
So it means no more lettuce? No we will invent the machine to pick it up, right?
Red Boxes will sell movies and hamburgers. I understand the example of going to the moon but think about all the things that immigrants do and then think which ones you can say so what. There are some that you need to start working on now so people won't feel the consequences

Posted by: AB | July 19, 2007 8:00 PM

AB, no ,not "no more lettuce" it means lettuce may cost more. The already heavily subsidized coporate farming industry will have to charge more to cover increased labor costs but will also have incentives to apply capital to make their operation more efficient. I'm not so sure things like better "lettuce picking machines" might not be the real solution to high agriculture commidity prices. It worked for wheat and cotton. Interestingly enough, we could also remove ag subsidies (via tariffs) and allow the importation of lettuce; meaning those illegals could grow it back on their family farms back in Mexico and ship it here.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 8:10 PM

XYZ: You are ignoring my central point. Our country is by and large highly developed. We're very spoiled. And we can afford to be (at least until China rules the world economically).

Our way of life depends on people cleaning our offices at night, flipping our burgers for cheap, etc.

That's how our economy is set up.

And Americans simply won't do this work, because they don't have to.

How many Americans do you know aspire to be a maid?

Your moon example isn't really analagous. Having clean offices and cheap fast food has become the norm in America. We aren't going to give those types of things up, and we sure aren't going to do them ourselves.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 8:53 PM

Hillman, there are many white and black citizens in the south are still doing domestic work in hotels, until illegal aliens move there and bring down the wages. What planet are you from?

Posted by: REDNECK | July 19, 2007 9:14 PM

I work all over PW County and have to go into these homes ,where I see 9 or more beds inside all over the place in one single family house. So bad they will even put a bed next to the toilet,they don't even use. They rather urinate all over their lawns. Throw trash on the ground where we have to live.Iam so sick of this place ,We let them take over all of our neighborhoods and make us Americans move from our homes we have lived in for years.All of our store's have changed to spanish stores and soon we will have nothing American. It already seems like we live in Mexico. I see them at 7-11 every day pissing all over the walls their as well.When is someone going to stop all of this Sh--t!!!! Can't wait until I can retire so I can move away from this place,before it get's worse. We have had our neighborhood very nice, now they found it and it's going to hell. Break -in's ,trash,10 car's , hanging out all hours ,laying on the lawns etc..Someone needs to put a stop to this crap!!!If white or black Americans were performing these haness acts ,we would be arrested..

Posted by: PA | July 19, 2007 9:18 PM

Carrick319 what country are you from? I hope you do get deported back there.

Posted by: RedNeck | July 19, 2007 9:20 PM

You are correct PA, but where I live, it's like living in El Salvador. Most of the illegal aliens or hispanics are from El Salvador in our area, but I do get your point. We are talking about 24 spanish speaking countries. (South America, Central America, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Mexico) That's a lot of people, and they are changing the landscape of this country. I war is on the horizon, and I am preparing for it.

Posted by: RedNeck | July 19, 2007 9:23 PM

Hillman, yes some people are spoiled. Somehow we'll adjust to strict immigration quotas. We'll be okay. Cleaning my own bathroom or paying a nickle more for a head of lettuce is a price I'll pay for knowing that American are getting decent wages and working conditions.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 9:35 PM

But all of these European immigrants, whether documented via Ellis Island or not, were made to assimilate to the American culture, to the point where the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of these LEGAL immigrants speak English as their first language and in some cases as their only language. Yet today, illegal immigrants have bi-lingual signage at stores
------
WRONG. Never happened. No one was made to assimilate and many did not. I know because I grew up with Greek neighbors in the 1960s who never spoke English at home. Oh, the kids did, but Nona and Nana? ha! Suuure Nona and Nana assimilated. Notta.

I was in Philadelphia over July 4th week this year. I was in a Jewish bakery on Cottman Ave. that was amazing. Everyone in the place looked 100 years old or older. There were signs in English and Hebrew and they had a free newspaper available in Hebrew. People peppered their language so it was about 1/4 Yiddish. You know, "This your first time here? Try the blllzrt, it's mshhsltnga."

I was on Christian St in South Philly. I went into an amazing olive & cheese store. The old man behind the counter was speaking Italian to his two sons. The whole time I was there he spoke Italian. There were signs in the store in Italian and they were listening to great 1950s-style Italian language music. It was either like a time machine to the 50s or a Sopranos episode, you be the judge.

Do you really think either of those European shop owners assimilated in your sense? Why did they keep their original language? Why did they use that language in their store? Why did they have Non-English music and non-English newspapers? What part of your story holds no water?

Have you ever been to Brooklyn?

I'm not a huge fan of the day laborers. I've told the story here before that a landscaper on my mother's block let his workers congregate and litter in a residential neighborhood, which should not happen.

But on the other hand, until you see the copies of documents in your hands, you are a fool to believe your family stories are fact. Truth is, in my family, there are no real papers but very real stories. Various ancestors just appear on censuses with no information as to their immigration status or how they got here.

Posted by: DCer | July 19, 2007 10:01 PM

XYZ:

Again, you are ignoring my main point.

It won't be a nickel more for a head of lettuce.

It'll be far more.

And I seriously doubt the people that work in corporate America are going to be up for cleaning their offices at night, or stepping behind the counter at Burger King to flip some burgers for dinner, etc., etc.

Simply put, we don't have 15 million Americans willing to do these jobs.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 10:04 PM

Redneck:

You are right. There were (and still are) Americans in these menial labor jobs.

But not many, comparatively speaking.

And we certainly don't have 15 million more that are willing to do this.

And please provide some actual evidence that illegal immigration is the primary root cause for depressed wages. As other posters have pointed out, certain low skill occupations in the US have had stagnant wages since 1970, long before the immigration 'crisis'.

Immigrants work, and they work hard, without attitude and a sense of entitlement. That's a lot more than I can say for a lot of Americans.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 10:09 PM

Hillman, au contraire, I have addressed your points directly. Let me re-iterate, the market equilibriums will re-adjust. Some jobs will disappear or relocate. America can re-adjust to higher labor rates. Heck, that's a good thing for wage earners. Yes, the guy with the maid and the restaurant fix and the gardener will pay more. The American domestic worker, cook and landscaper will get more. Policy decisions create winners and losers. Let's decide for the American worker and get those median wages back up. This is a good thing.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 10:13 PM

XYZ:

Do you really think a lack of illegal immigrants will result in great wages and working conditions?

American history would suggest otherwise. Our history is filled with terrible working conditions and the lower working class being treated terribly. Unrelated to illegal immigration.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 10:14 PM

Hillman , You ask "Do you really think a lack of illegal immigrants will result in great wages and working conditions?"

I answer "Yes, wages and working conditions will improve".

Academic analysis to back it up : http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back504.html

Select quotes : "Economic theory predicts that increasing the supply of labor in this way will reduce earnings for natives in competition with immigrants." "By increasing the supply of labor between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by an estimated $1,700 or roughly 4 percent."
"The negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants." "It seems that Paul Samuelson was right after all: Wages fall when immigrants increase the size of the workforce."

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 10:21 PM

One of the best characteristics of our counties and country is the mix of culture and ethnicities. There is a distinct and modest pride

that we all share in the contributions that each of us make to our hometown and nation. Nevertheless, we must be very mindful of the

reality that there are important socioeconomic and structural responsibilities we must maintain and safeguard.

Unfortunately, playing the politics and politricks of getting elected disable most officials and candidates from making genuine efforts to

fully address illegal immigration, and its socioeconomic impact on every certified citizen and legal immigrant.

Here is an action plan and proposal to best secure our cities and communities when we honestly recognize the current and expanding

socioeconomic burdens, and security risks, of illegal immigration. Keep in mind, states and counties can apply this plan without

conflict to federal laws and bogus class action immigration lawsuits. Citizen initiatives, referendums and voter activism (removing public

officials through elections or recalls) are also formidable keys to inacting this plan:

RESIDENCY CARD: Authorize only legal citizen-residents and legal immigrant residents to carry a fully secure and verifiable county or

state residency card. The encoded holographic photo identity card will have an embedded electronic chip additionally encoded with

tamperproof identity data. The expense of producing, managing and securing these cards are no greater than the cost of ATM or

employee identification cards. Violations in the use or counterfeiting of residency cards will result in 10 years of imprisonment and a

$10,000 fine. Authorized owners of the residency cards are eligible for a one-time 1% tax credit on their annual local income tax (i.e.

$20,000 x .01 = $200). Through a decrease in identity fraud and abuse, the state and local governments will annually save over $2,000

per legal citizen resident from a reduction in the need to fund government operations to prevent and prosecute fraud and abuse of public

services by unauthorized residents. Also, there is added savings by enabling better monitoring, budgeting and targeting of taxpayer

money for diverse government services. Additionally, it is mandatory that a fully accountable system be in place to ensure a higher level

of general local public safety. The residency card system will be managed by the newly created local or state Residency Certification

Service (RCS). State or local RCS agencies should have full investigative, arrest and prosecution powers.

PUBLIC SERVICES: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to public services, and

must prove their status through the secure and verifiable RCS residency card. Illegal recipient violators of public services will receive 1

year of imprisonment followed by immediate deportation.

EMPLOYMENT: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to private and public

employment, and must prove their status through a secure and verifiable RCS residency card. Insure swift and severe financial penalties

and imprisonment against employers ($20,000 per illegal employee, plus 5 years imprisonment with a 10-year revocation of applicable

business licenses and permits). Illegal employee violators will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed by immediate deportation.

HOUSING: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to private and public housing, and

must prove their status through the RCS residency card. Insure swift and severe financial penalties and imprisonment against residency

owners, property managers, independent renters, and sub-leasers ($20,000 per illegal occupant, plus 5 years imprisonment with a

10-year revocation of applicable business licenses and permits). Illegal occupant violators will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed

by immediate deportation.

HEALTH SERVICES: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to public health facilities

and publicly financed health services, and must prove their status through the secure verifiable RCS residency card. Only critical

(immediate and short term life saving) emergency services will be provided. Insure swift and severe financial penalties and imprisonment

against facilities and healthcare providers ($20,000 per illegal recipient, plus 5 years imprisonment with a 10-year revocation of

applicable operating licenses and permits). Illegal recipient violators of health services will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed by

immediate deportation.

EDUCATION: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to private and public education

services supported by public funds and services, and must prove their status through the secure verifiable RCS residency card. Insure

swift and severe financial penalties and imprisonment against education facilities and training providers ($20,000 per illegal student, plus

5 years imprisonment with a 10-year revocation of applicable business licenses and permits). Illegal recipient violators of education

services will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed by immediate deportation.

Lastly, here is the part of the plan that will test the true intentions, integrity, credibility and genuine agenda of businesses (and special

interest funded public officials) who justify their actions for cheap and uninsured labor.

PROBATIONAL EMPLOYEE STATUS: Provide a fully accountable and secure system for non-citizen immigrants with certified US

Immigration status to work and live in the state or county through an employer-financed employment program. This program,

Probationary Employment Status Authorization (PESA), is designed to track and transition immigrants with current and certifiable US

non-citizen status into legal citizenship at employer expense. Employers are required to sponsor and pay the PESA applicant at or

above the minimum local or regional wage (or compatible to the local salary rate for the occupation), plus finance the standard individual

health benefits for the applicant. Employers must guarantee full-time employment for one year. In the 11th month of employment,

PESA applicants must apply for legal citizenship. During the one year probationary employment period, and until legal US citizenship

is authorized, the applicant cannot have citizenship or extend any PESA benefits to immediate family members (legally married

spouse, legal guardian children, legal siblings and legal grandparents) until legal US citizenship is authorized. Extended family

members (cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, in-laws, 'godparents' et cetera) are excluded from any family-linked citizenship.

Applicant or employer violations of PESA statues will resort in immediate prosecution, 1 year of imprisonment and a $100,000 fine

against both violators. Applicant violators face deportation after serving 1 year in jail.

Facing reality in a practical and compassionate way can be a challenging balance. Nevertheless, we have a primary responsibility to

respond to any and all challenges that threaten our need for real socioeconomic stability and reliable traditions of equitable justice. A

truly diverse yet common heritage defines us as Washingtonians, secures the integrity of our national capital, and empowers our

nation. Compromising this integrity, security and heritage binds us to the culture of chaos and despair found elsewhere.

Illegal immigration into our small and large communities, has been nationally proven to bring expanded and increased burdens on local

schools, available housing, healthcare systems, employment opportunities, fragile government budgets and critical public services.

There is a clear and comprehensive difference between our legal immigrant citizen neighbors, who contribute greatly to the vitality of our

cities, and those who have chosen to reside, work and drain publicly financed services under various illegal activities and scams. There

can be no gray area, doubt or distortion when it comes to the laws that apply to us all. Illegal still means breaking the law.

Breaking laws, or providing inequitable exceptions to the law, distorts and weakens the integrity of our legal system. Losing trust in the

integrity of our legal system has long-term governance and socioeconomic consequences for us all. Elected and appointed public

officials must not sacrifice or set aside the standards of law that binds and strengthens our diverse communities. Moreover, taxpaying

legal citizen voters must be responsibly vigilant and proactive by insuring that our schools, housing, hospitals, jobs, and other vital

socioeconomic assets are not burdened or decreased by the activities of diverse illegal immigrants. All public officials elected and paid

by taxpayers must be held accountable before and on election day for any socioeconomic damage to our communities.

More frankly, public officials and candidates must be held accountable for engaging in any pretentious rhetoric, phony policy

pronouncements or campaign pandering just to get elected, or stay elected. The reality of limited taxpayer revenue, compounded by the

loss of living wage jobs, basic employment opportunities, family housing, efficient school systems, easier healthcare access, effective

public safety and middle class achievement must not be the vision and plan of our public officials.

Simultaneously, we must take extraordinary measures to insure that our many valued new citizen-residents and visitors to our counties

and states are not discriminated against, exploited or diminished in any way by the illegal activities of anyone. A zero-tolerance policy

must be in place against any and all forms of bias and exploitation of new citizens. Our strength as a country, including native born and

legal immigrant citizens, resides in our diversity as rooted in the laws that guide, protect and define us as a nation.

Dennis Moore
Chairperson
District of Columbia Independents for Citizen Control
http://www.DCIndependents.org

Posted by: Dennis Moore | July 19, 2007 10:32 PM

STRAIGHT TALK AND REAL SOLUTIONS
ABOUT LEGAL vs ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

One of the best characteristics of our counties and country is the mix of culture and ethnicities. There is a distinct and modest pride that we all share in the contributions that each of us make to our hometown and nation. Nevertheless, we must be very mindful of the reality that there are important socioeconomic and structural responsibilities we must maintain and safeguard.


Unfortunately, playing the politics and politricks of getting elected disable most officials and candidates from making genuine efforts to fully address illegal immigration, and its socioeconomic impact on every certified citizen and legal immigrant.


Here is an action plan and proposal to best secure our cities and communities when we honestly recognize the current and expanding socioeconomic burdens, and security risks, of illegal immigration. Keep in mind, states and counties can apply this plan without conflict to federal laws and bogus class action immigration lawsuits. Citizen initiatives, referendums and voter activism (removing public officials through elections or recalls) are also formidable keys to inacting this plan:


RESIDENCY CARD: Authorize only legal citizen-residents and legal immigrant residents to carry a fully secure and verifiable county or state residency card. The encoded holographic photo identity card will have an embedded electronic chip additionally encoded with tamperproof identity data. The expense of producing, managing and securing these cards are no greater than the cost of ATM or employee identification cards. Violations in the use or counterfeiting of residency cards will result in 10 years of imprisonment and a $10,000 fine. Authorized owners of the residency cards are eligible for a one-time 1% tax credit on their annual local income tax (i.e. $20,000 x .01 = $200). Through a decrease in identity fraud and abuse, the state and local governments will annually save over $2,000 per legal citizen resident from a reduction in the need to fund government operations to prevent and prosecute fraud and abuse of public services by unauthorized residents. Also, there is added savings by enabling better monitoring, budgeting and targeting of taxpayer money for diverse government services. Additionally, it is mandatory that a fully accountable system be in place to ensure a higher level of general local public safety. The residency card system will be managed by the newly created local or state Residency Certification Service (RCS). State or local RCS agencies should have full investigative, arrest and prosecution powers.


PUBLIC SERVICES: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to public services, and must prove their status through the secure and verifiable RCS residency card. Illegal recipient violators of public services will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed by immediate deportation.


EMPLOYMENT: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to private and public employment, and must prove their status through a secure and verifiable RCS residency card. Insure swift and severe financial penalties and imprisonment against employers ($20,000 per illegal employee, plus 5 years imprisonment with a 10-year revocation of applicable business licenses and permits). Illegal employee violators will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed by immediate deportation.


HOUSING: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to private and public housing, and must prove their status through the RCS residency card. Insure swift and severe financial penalties and imprisonment against residency owners, property managers, independent renters, and sub-leasers ($20,000 per illegal occupant, plus 5 years imprisonment with a 10-year revocation of applicable business licenses and permits). Illegal occupant violators will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed by immediate deportation.


HEALTH SERVICES: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to public health facilities and publicly financed health services, and must prove their status through the secure verifiable RCS residency card. Only critical (immediate and short term life saving) emergency services will be provided. Insure swift and severe financial penalties and imprisonment against facilities and healthcare providers ($20,000 per illegal recipient, plus 5 years imprisonment with a 10-year revocation of applicable operating licenses and permits). Illegal recipient violators of health services will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed by immediate deportation.


EDUCATION: Authorize only legal US citizen residents and legal immigrant residents to have access to private and public education services supported by public funds and services, and must prove their status through the secure verifiable RCS residency card. Insure swift and severe financial penalties and imprisonment against education facilities and training providers ($20,000 per illegal student, plus 5 years imprisonment with a 10-year revocation of applicable business licenses and permits). Illegal recipient violators of education services will receive 1 year of imprisonment followed by immediate deportation.


Lastly, here is the part of the plan that will test the true intentions, integrity, credibility and genuine agenda of businesses (and special interest funded public officials) who justify their actions for cheap and uninsured labor:

PROBATIONAL EMPLOYEE STATUS: Provide a fully accountable and secure system for non-citizen immigrants with certified US Immigration status to work and live in the state or county through an employer-financed employment program. This program, Probationary Employment Status Authorization (PESA), is designed to track and transition immigrants with current and certifiable US non-citizen status into legal citizenship at employer expense. Employers are required to sponsor and pay the PESA applicant at or above the minimum local or regional wage (or compatible to the local salary rate for the occupation), plus finance the standard individual health benefits for the applicant. Employers must guarantee full-time employment for one year. In the 11th month of employment, PESA applicants must apply for legal citizenship. During the one year probationary employment period, and until legal US citizenship is authorized, the applicant cannot have citizenship or extend any PESA benefits to immediate family members (legally married spouse, legal guardian children, legal siblings and legal grandparents) until legal US citizenship is authorized. Extended family members (cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, in-laws, 'godparents' et cetera) are excluded from any family-linked citizenship. Applicant or employer violations of PESA statues will resort in immediate prosecution, 1 year of imprisonment and a $100,000 fine against both violators. Applicant violators face deportation after serving 1 year in jail.


Facing reality in a practical and compassionate way can be a challenging balance. Nevertheless, we have a primary responsibility to respond to any and all challenges that threaten our need for real socioeconomic stability and reliable traditions of equitable justice. A truly diverse yet common heritage defines us as Washingtonians, secures the integrity of our national capital, and empowers our nation. Compromising this integrity, security and heritage binds us to the culture of chaos and despair found elsewhere.


Illegal immigration into our small and large communities, has been nationally proven to bring expanded and increased burdens on local schools, available housing, healthcare systems, employment opportunities, fragile government budgets and critical public services.


There is a clear and comprehensive difference between our legal immigrant citizen neighbors, who contribute greatly to the vitality of our cities, and those who have chosen to reside, work and drain publicly financed services under various illegal activities and scams. There can be no gray area, doubt or distortion when it comes to the laws that apply to us all. Illegal still means breaking the law.


Breaking laws, or providing inequitable exceptions to the law, distorts and weakens the integrity of our legal system. Losing trust in the integrity of our legal system has long-term governance and socioeconomic consequences for us all. Elected and appointed public officials must not sacrifice or set aside the standards of law that binds and strengthens our diverse communities. Moreover, taxpaying legal citizen voters must be responsibly vigilant and proactive by insuring that our schools, housing, hospitals, jobs, and other vital socioeconomic assets are not burdened or decreased by the activities of diverse illegal immigrants. All public officials elected and paid by taxpayers must be held accountable before and on election day for any socioeconomic damage to our communities.


More frankly, public officials and candidates must be held accountable for engaging in any pretentious rhetoric, phony policy pronouncements or campaign pandering just to get elected, or stay elected. The reality of limited taxpayer revenue, compounded by the loss of living wage jobs, basic employment opportunities, family housing, efficient school systems, easier healthcare access, effective public safety and middle class achievement must not be the vision and plan of our public officials.


Simultaneously, we must take extraordinary measures to insure that our many valued new citizen-residents and visitors to our counties and states are not discriminated against, exploited or diminished in any way by the illegal activities of anyone. A zero-tolerance policy must be in place against any and all forms of bias and exploitation of new citizens. Our strength as a country, including native born and legal immigrant citizens, resides in our diversity as rooted in the laws that guide, protect and define us as a nation.

Dennis Moore
Chairperson
District of Columbia Independents for Citizen Control
http://www.DCIndependents.org
Your comments or criticisms are most welcomed at: dennis@DCIndependents.org

Posted by: Dennis Moore | July 19, 2007 10:51 PM

I have been a registered Democrat all my life, but on the issue of illegal immigration, I have been very displeased with the Democrats. The Democrats have been pandering to one particular ethnic group, hispanics to get cheap votes. I am switching to become an Independent. Liberal progressive Mayor Fenty and the D.C. Council supports illegal immigration, and MPD has a sanctuary policy in place not to ask criminals who might be in the country illegally their immigration status.

Posted by: Ward4DC | July 19, 2007 11:33 PM

XYZ:

4 percent overall, and 7 percent in low skill categories. That's the best you can do? Immigrant labor drove down wages 4 percent? Heck, the gravitational pull of Pluto probably affected wages more than 4 percent.

And even that statistic is from CIS, an anti-immigrant group that clearly has a vested interest.

If that's the best you can come up with, I'd consider another line of attack.

So let's say we kick out all the immigrants and these crappy jobs then pay 7 percent more.

You really think American's are going to get all excited about that 7 percent and go running out and take these jobs?

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 11:39 PM

XYZ:

You are also forgetting age.

The Baby Boomers are set to start retiring very soon.

Simply put, there aren't enough younger people to support them.

Immigrants tend to be much younger than the current US population.

It's their incomes, taxes (yes, they do pay taxes and the fruit of their labor is taxed as the economy grows), and their actual labor that will support the American Baby Boom generation.

Posted by: Hillman | July 19, 2007 11:48 PM

Hillman, the author Dr. Borjas is the Robert W. Scrivner Professor of Economics and Social Policy at Harvard University. The summary I linked to is an expansion of Dr. Borjas' article, "The Labor Demand Curve Is Downward Sloping: Reexamining the Impact of Immigration on the Labor Market," published in the November 2003 issue of the Quarterly Journal of Economics (pp. 1335-1374).

The scholarship is solid.

If good research can't persuade you, oh well. If 7% compounded over a working lifetime is trivial to you, oh well. If all you can do is whine "dat de best you got", then oh well.

Oh well.

Posted by: xyz | July 19, 2007 11:56 PM

These are the requirements for those who want to move to El Salvador to make a difference.

Residency...
Hire a lawyer to help you with residency procedures. All the necessary documents can be obtained at the Ministry of the Interior. There are four types of residency in El Salvador...

1. Temporary residency, granted to foreigners as a work permit.

2. Permanent residency, granted to foreigners who can prove they have lived in El Salvador for at least five years.

3. Residency as a Financier, (Rentista) granted to retired foreigners with outside income.

4. Investor's residency, granted to foreigners who come to the country to establish a business or factory.

The following documentation is required for residency...

Residency request form
Original birth certificate
Good conduct certificate given by the Salvadoran consulate in the foreigner's country of origin, and from the Ministry of Foreign Relations.
Two recent photographs
HIV test
Health certificate
Work contract
A letter requesting residency
Fill out the personal data form
Photocopies of all the above

Posted by: Against Illegal Immigration | July 20, 2007 12:26 AM

These are the requirements for those who want to move to El Salvador to make a difference.

Residency...
Hire a lawyer to help you with residency procedures. All the necessary documents can be obtained at the Ministry of the Interior. There are four types of residency in El Salvador...

1. Temporary residency, granted to foreigners as a work permit.

2. Permanent residency, granted to foreigners who can prove they have lived in El Salvador for at least five years.

3. Residency as a Financier, (Rentista) granted to retired foreigners with outside income.

4. Investor's residency, granted to foreigners who come to the country to establish a business or factory.

The following documentation is required for residency...

Residency request form
Original birth certificate
Good conduct certificate given by the Salvadoran consulate in the foreigner's country of origin, and from the Ministry of Foreign Relations.
Two recent photographs
HIV test
Health certificate
Work contract
A letter requesting residency
Fill out the personal data form
Photocopies of all the above

Posted by: Against Illegal Immigration | July 20, 2007 12:26 AM

Hillman, I call BS on your "we need illegal immigration to support retirement". Stop trying to scare little old ladies into thinking their social security check will bounce.

Check this out: http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=US&out=s&ymax=300&submit=Submit+Query

I see no crisis. The largest demographic group in 2025 will be people under the age of 10. The second largest will be people in their 30s. There is no crisis. Our American kids are going to build a better nation.

Posted by: xyz | July 20, 2007 1:20 AM

Carrick319,

You've been shooting off your mouth and talking nonsense for a couple of days, but you're still dodging my earlier request to explain your failure to gain legal status and your lack of respect for American laws.

When are you going grow a pair of cajones and answer a direct question like a man?

Posted by: ceefer66 | July 20, 2007 3:03 AM

AB...let me clarify a few things. First, I have explored my feelings about other races and I believe the last thing that I can be seen as is a racist. My first husband was full Japanese and my second husband was from Nicaragua. He came to this country legally and we also bought his daughter here. We patiently waited the painful 2 years that it took to get her here even though it would have been quicker and less expensive to bring her here illegally. Secondly, the question of law-breaking. Most illegals I know do not have respect for our laws. They drive without licenses because they are here illegally and cannot obtain one and they drive without insurance. There are other instances, like DUI and social security fraud that I could go on and on about, but the basic is that the one simple act of coming here illegally begets many other illegal acts because of it and that is what I was referring to in breaking the laws of this country. I do not appreciate people holding marches to fight for their "rights" while waving the flags of other countries in my face. But yet I am supposed to take seriously that they want to be law abiding true citizens of this country? The whole concept of holding a rally to fight for your "rights" when you are here illegally strikes me as preposterous anyway. What part of "illegal" is not clear to you. You don't have "rights" in this country unless you are a citizen. You have the right to be treated as a human being but you don't have the "rights" that citizens of this country have. If you want to be a citizen of this country, assimilate yourself into society and show that you are truly willing to give up your other country and pledge your allegiance to this country and its laws. Do not expect me to change my country for you. You will not change yours for me. I have been to Nicaragua three times and not once did they, nor did I expect, them to speak English to me. It was full on Spanish every day of the week. No signs in English, no translations for me. But yet, it is somehow expected here, as if it is a right. I do not belittle people speaking other languages. I think its great if you are bilingual and, in private, you have the right to speak any language you choose. But when you go out, do not "expect" that other people will bend over backwards to accomodate you not speaking English. We should not have to change our laws to accomodate people who can't get things done "legally" because they are here "illegally.

Posted by: Michele | July 20, 2007 7:34 AM

It is pretty gutless, Mark, to continually dish out criticism but censor posts that criticize YOU for regularly playing the race card and fomenting discord, as you have done here and as you did re Barry's wax figure (the post that was censored). But it IS totally in keeping with your "character". Do people understand that you get paid extra for this blog, and so you have a financial interest in promoting hits, even if it comes at the price of increasing animosity between the races?

Posted by: RL | July 20, 2007 8:55 AM

My parents came into the country legally on student visas, then found jobs that allowed them to get skilled-worker visas and eventually apply for green cards and citizenship. After she got her citizenship, my mother applied for her unmarried older sister to join us because she will have no immediate family back home after my grandparents pass away. Since then, we've waited eight years to hear back from the INS. And we're still waiting...

I challenge anyone to tell me why I shouldn't be angry that illegal immigrants are waltzing into the country while people who are trying to obey the law have to wait years--even decades--to immigrate legally. I challenge anyone to tell me why it's fair for illegal immigrants to just pack their stuff and move in while legal immigrants wait in horrendous INS backlogs.

I'm sorry that many illegal immigrants have it tough back home, but that's the responsibility of their government--not ours. By allowing millions of their young men to leave the country and send home remittances as the primary income for their families, we are enabling many foreign governments to cruise along and abdicate any sort of responsibility for fixing their own economies, infrastructures, and societies.

Posted by: K | July 20, 2007 11:37 AM

ILLEGAL AS THEY CALL IMMIGRANTS, THEY ARE NOT TAKING JOBS FROM BLACKS. WE JUST COME FROM A TOUGHER BACKGROUND, WAR TORN COUNTRIES AND APPRECIATE MORE WHAT'S OFFERED IN THIS COUNTRY AND WE TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF IT. SO I THINK IS UNFAIR FOR BLACKS TO SAY SUCH A STATEMENT

Posted by: angie | July 20, 2007 11:54 AM

Angie, you are not immigrants, you are illegal aliens. There is a difference from a legal immigrant an and illegal alien. You have immigranted here. You came to this country uninvited by crossing our porous borders. You should return to your native country and protest of your government for a better life.

Posted by: Steve | July 20, 2007 12:23 PM

Correction: Angie you didn't immigrante here. You came uninvited!!!! I am a white citizen, and illegal aliens have brought down wages for all U.S. citizens in the work place with cheap labor.

Posted by: Steve | July 20, 2007 12:25 PM

I just would like to know if the Escobar brothers who are employed by a VDOT sub-contractor at $17 an hour are still patiently waiting for the incompetent bureaucratic ICE to make arrangements for them to have their summer holiday visiting family in Mexico?

Posted by: LH | July 20, 2007 2:09 PM

I believe the immigration situation is to a great degree a matter of economics. Illegals come here because of the differential of opportunity between their own countries and the U.S. Policies that reduce the 'opportunity gap' so to speak, will also tend to slow the tide of illegal immigration. For example, enforcement of employment laws would limit the number of jobs avaailable. Enforcement of zoning laws would increase rent costs and perhaps then these people couldn't even work for the low wages they now do. Barring the availablity of social services would also tend to make immigration a less attractive option.

Posted by: kieth miller | July 20, 2007 3:10 PM

XYZ:

The study you posted showed a 7% reduction in wages over 20 years. That's hardly 'compounded yearly", as you suggest.

So let's say the average wage earner works 40 years. And immigration makes wages go down 7 x 2, for 14%.

That's fairly insignificant, over 40 years.

Let's be generous and round it up to 20%. Do you really think Americans are not doing these crappy jobs because of a 20% wage depression?

Again, is that all you got? If it is, it's pretty weak.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 21, 2007 9:12 PM

XYZ:

I'm not really sure why you use statistics. They are actually defeating your argument.

The very population data you link to show a significantly higher older retirement age population in both 2005 and 2050.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize this means far higher social security and government medical costs, especially since we're going to end up with socialized medicine in the US.

Every social scientist out there tells us repeatedly that social security is grossly underfunded and that we're not prepared for the Baby Boom retirements.

Even your own data support that argument

Posted by: Hillman | July 21, 2007 9:17 PM

K:

Your own post answers your questions. Illegals come here illegally precisely because the wait has become years long to come in legally, and because if we limited immigration to our current immigration levels we'd leave tens of millions of jobs in the US unfulfilled.

So to fix the problem, since you are in favor of legal immigration only, would you support a very large new legal immigration cap, in the millions, until we reach equilibrium?

Posted by: Hillman | July 21, 2007 9:21 PM

XYZ:

Here's a link that fully supports my earlier post about Baby Boomers and retirement. It's from the Congressional Budget Office. And it says nearly verbatim what I earlier posted.

Care to comment?

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5195&type=0

Posted by: Hillman | July 21, 2007 9:41 PM

My apologies for the typo two posts above. The years cited should be 2025 and 2050.

Posted by: Hillman | July 21, 2007 9:43 PM

Hillman, you live in a deep fantasy world. The article you link to mentions NOTHING about the need to increase immigration to pay for boomer retirements. The article you cite says that *some* boomers *may* have to struggle financially in retirement. Everybody knows that and it does not re-enforce your point.

Posted by: xyz | July 23, 2007 2:13 PM

XYZ:

I quote directly from the government report....

That impending wave of retirements has become a source of concern for two reasons. First, the population of retirees will grow much more quickly than the taxpaying workforce, at a time when average benefits per retiree are expected to continue rising. Those developments will place severe and mounting budgetary pressures on the federal government.(1)


So I guess the entire federal government is in the same fantasy world as I am.

And you never answered my question about how you figure that if wages didn't go down the 14% that your figures show over 40 YEARS, then somehow magically that would be incentive for Americans to start picking lettuce, to move to Vegas to clean hotel rooms, to work in the mushroom plants in Texas, etc.

You are the one that brought up those stats. I challenged them, rather successfully.

Why no response?

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