I've had to fight the impulse to send Mike Q a case of whiskey. IMO, he deserved to die drunk.
AA's fourth tradition grants groups autonomy except in matters that affect other groups or AA as a whole. Midtown has affected other groups and the fellowship; they have compromised AA's reputation as a safe haven for all who seek help.
Other than dropping Midtown's meetings from the roster, there's not much Intergroup or General Services can do but, hopefully, let them wither & die.
In the meantime, be warned. Midtown may be associated with AA, but what they practice is not how many sober alcoholics' define sobriety.
Of course, I only speak for myself...

This somewhat amusing saga of "Mike Q." seems to have gotten a bit more airplay than it is worth. There are hundreds of AA groups in the Washington D.C., area that follow AA's 12 traditions and are strong in carrying AA's message to the still suffering alcoholic.

The Midtown "group" - group of what I am not quite sure of - seem to have very little to do with Alcoholics Anonymous. There are other "recovery fads" that I have seen come and go in my 27-plus years as an active member of AA; Rational Recovery immediately comes to mind.

I hope that those who broke the law in Midtown are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I also hope the general public better understands that Midtown is not representative of AA - and in my humble opinion, is not even a part of AA.

Good riddance to con artists and sexual predators like Michael Quinones.

Hey Marc,

I have a question for you. For all your interest in the "controversy" surrounding this story, have you ever attended any of the meetings in questions, or any meeting of AA for that matter?

Just wondering

AA member, what's your point?

Tom,

If thirty people called Marc and told him that the sky was blue, and he procceeded to write about that as fact, how would he ever really know what color the sky is if he never actually goes outside himself. Sounds more like sensationalized reporting than infromed fact based reporting is what I was getting at. How can such an "esteemed" member of the press convince anyone, that he knows what the real story is if he has never seen it with his own eyes?

He even admitted in his Power Talk/Hur blog that he never even attended the meetings in question. How informed is that?

AA Member is of course correct--as some Midtown members know, I was invited to attend their sessions incognito, an invitation that Post ethics rules require me to decline. We do not believe in reporting via subterfuge. Yes, there are times when it's enticing to sneak into some meeting and pretend to be something other than a reporter, but that's simply not honest and we don't do it.
So I relied on good old reporting: I spoke to dozens of people who devoted years of their lives to Midtown. Some left the group in disgust, some were drawn out by exit counselors and family members, and some remain in the group and continue to defend its approach and actions. In addition, I spoke to police investigators, lawyers, counselors, psychiatrists and others in AA and out who have watched Midtown for many years and have close experiences with it. That's the way most news stories are reported. Ideally, every story will include firsthand observation as part of the reporting, but that's not always possible, nor is it, in a story like this, necessarily of much use. As members of Midtown are quick to note, many of the more coercive aspects of the group are evident not from the meetings themselves, but from the close social connections and job and living arrangements that members are lured into. Going to a meeting wouldn't give a reporter much insight into that.

How informed is what?

Why would an alleged scam artist and sexual predator like this Mike Q. dude (and his cronies) go after a middle-aged, balding man like Mr. Fisher? It looks to me as if Fisher's reporting has multiple sources that have given ample testimony to the type of conduct that has occurred over the years at the "Midtown Group." And much of this conduct -- that has nothing to with AA seems -- to be focused on Quinones and his cohorts allegedly coercing young, impressionable women very early in sobriety to part with finances and sexual favors. My only hope is that a grand jury will soon return indictments against this bunch of creeps.

Come on, Marc. In today's world of gotcha cable news and Internet bloggers, we all expect you to go undercover as a 17 year old woman who is fond of drink.

OK, now I can't get that image out of my mind.

Good reporting.

Well, I'm just glad that I'm sleeping at night, sober and happy. I wonder if the people who have provided the slander for this article are sleeping at night happy and sober. My thought is that it is dobtful. But they'll remain in my prayers anyway.

If you believe all that mess...
I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

When they came for the old timers,
I remained silent;
I was not an old timer.

When they kicked us out of the meetings,
I remained silent;
My spirit is not in the meeting space but the meeting itself.

When they came for the traditions and heart of AA,
I did not speak out;
I was just a young member who in my heart is following the traditions.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

I will continue to live as I know is right - my life is between me and God - not some random BS newspaper.

Copying the "when they came for me" prose decrying the silence of people during WWII is beneath contempt. Your situtation is not remotely similar and constructing a parallel that says otherwise is despicable.

Or are you about to be packed into a freight car and hauled to the gas chamber?

Thanks for the background, Marc! That was illuminating.

Actually that phrase has been used for many groups having nothing to do with WWII including the Catholics, Protestants, and the mentally ill. Also, due the slander and gossip many people are dying. The resentful and the newcomer alike. I think it's important to recognize that. When those who carry this awful bag of lies drinks and dies perhaps then you will believe it's important to tell the truth about the situation.

Marc,

I thank you for your respose above. I gotta tell you though, and maybe its just me, I have a problem with reporters and members in the media who have reported on this "controversy" pressuming to know anything about AA and its traditions.

I can go a block down the street and talk w/ sales guys at a honda dealer. I can then go to the chrylser deler, the lexus dealer, then over to the ford dealer. They'll all tell me how and why they are the best and how and why the "other group" is wrong and all about how they treat thier customers badly.

Doesn't really make me much of an authority on cars and how the how cars work does it? The reason I had asked whether or not you had attended Midtown or any other meeting was because I was interested in knowing wether or not you actually know what the 12 steps and traditions are in AA. I guess since it wasn't important for your story to do any back checking on AA as a program of recovery, I guess that should tell everyone what it needs to.

Your original article titled" AA member leads members away from Traditions' talked about the unusual adaptation to AA that Mike Q created. Midtown was an established AA meeting back in the 50's, long before Mike Q even got sober. Besides, there are no leaders in AA, onlt trusted servants.

To be fair, I think you should have asked Rev. Goff what it is really like to be in thier "huge" fellowship hall standing shoulder to shoulder in August with out any air conditioning.

When my son called to tell me he's not coming over tonight because he's going to a memorial service I asked if it was for Mike Q.

He said, "yes."

I told him I'd read about him on this web site. He said, "oh."

I said, "I know if you act with integrity, work the steps and follow the traditions that you will not be one of those people they talk about who take advantage of people."

The fact that my son called me, was at work, and even has a drivers' license is a tribute to the Midtown group. Of his pre-Midtown friends one is in jail and the other stepped in front of a train and is dead.

The only reason I can read this and not be outraged that it's sensational is that I know that the program works, and that people who haven't been there don't have a clue about it.

I never met Mike Q and I imagine that I might not have thought he was the greatest person, but I have to wish him eternal peace because he was a part of a group that has saved one life that is very dear to me.

Midtown AA is not going anywhere Midtown will continue to grow and save lives as it did mine because I will "pass it on".

Indeed Midtown will not go anywhere and it will continue to thrive. It's because the people there are happy and know how to have fun in sobriety. Others see this and look on in envy. Alcoholics are envious, paranoid and spiteful creatures. This evidenced in these blogs and in the the articles about the group. Most of the things in these articles could be construed one way or the other. I guess the one thing Marc Fisher forgot was to check the credibility of his sources. I don't want to say anymore, but the people he quoted in his articles literally had ulterior motives while they were supposedly undergoing this torture in Midtown. Oh, I guess they didn't mention THEIR part. That would change, rather discredit the story entirely. Wouldn't it.

The one thing I know about AA in the DC area is that it is BORING. And the people you're hanging out with this year will most likely be gone next year; either no longer going to AA, moving away somewhere or even leaving and getting drunk. Alcoholics rarely stay in one place very long, it's their most outstanding trait. Rarely do the ever see eye to eye on anything. Another one of their outstanding traits. Hehhemm...

But then there's Midtown, a place where you know people will always be doing something active and sober. True some of them have a stupid elistist attitudes, but criminals they are not. Breakers of traditions they are not. The accusers are the breakers of the traditions, not them. Read the damn traditions again, this time read the black parts on the page. :|

A stupid assumption on every haters part is that people came to Midtown without a choice. Most of the members there chose to be there because they know how bad their case is. Regular ho-hum DC AA just wasn't cutting it. What are you going to do for the other 23 hours of the day? In most of the AA groups in this area, the answer is nothing. Feeling crazy want to drink, too bad, you'll just have to wait for the dreary meeting 15 hours from now.

What goes on there is a miracle to some and a nightmare to others. But one thing that is certain, you won't find it anywhere else in this country or in any other. Midtown saves the lives of people who could not get sober anywhere else they tried. Thank God Midtown is there. Thank God.

" ... What goes on there is a miracle to some and a nightmare to others. But one thing that is certain, you won't find it anywhere else in this country or in any other. "

This reminds me so much of Jonestown.

Thanks for confirming many of our suspicions, "indeed" ..

Marc,
First of all thanks for the great reporting. I'm a long-time member of the program and a former resident of D.C. Along with a ex-Midtown buddy, I attended a number of Midtown meetings and events to see what with my own eyes what was going on. To their credit, Midtown does two things extremely well; they help the young alcoholic develop a social network and learn that you can have fun in sobriety. This is something I am often dissappointed with in our other groups...it seems to me that often the older members can fail in demonstrating this to younger alcoholics...that you can be sober and still enjoy life.

On the other hand, I saw enough suspicious and sometimes downright creepy behavior in Midtown groups that sent me running for the hills. Meetings definitely had the flavor of a personality cult centering around 'The Q' and his lieutenants. I've found their slight perversion of the program to be disturbing. It was obvious from day 1 that these changes were meant to beneift 'the Q' and his guys. I have to be honest. I have seen this type of predatory behavior very occassionally in other groups.....of course, AA is a microcosm of the world. My issue is the scale and systematic nature of the abuse. In most groups, AA old-timers will often intervene personally to address the situation. Obviously, when the old-timers are the ones taking advantage, this is tough to correct.

I DO empathize with the parents who feel a debt to Midtown for saving their child. It's hard for me to argue against them. I think Midtown is better than no AA, but there are many great meetings in the DC area. Unfortunately, one needs to try out many sometimes to find the good ones.

In my opinion, the best way to help your child is to know something about alcoholism. The Big Book of AA isn't only for alcoholics by the way. If a parent wants to REALLY know what the program is all about (and not just take Midtown's word for it) you can learn alot about the principles through AA's website (www.aa.org) or by reading the Big Book of AA.

Blessings to everyone fighting this pernicious disease.

I know there are many people that have been saved by the work of members of Midtown. I also know of people who have been harmed by members of Midtown. Which I guess makes AA no different than other organizations. If Mike Q (or any of the other surviving members of Midtown) had (have) done anything illegal then prosecute them.

Since Mike Q had a service at Blessed Sacrement I am assuming that he was Catholic. So now if Mike Q has done anything wrong it will be from a far higher authority to determine his guilt.

Mike Q and Midtown are a part of AA but they are not AA. My own home group has its share of "interesting" people. Heck, AA is about only place I know of that having jail in your C.V. makes your story "better".

As long as the primary message in Midtown is: don't drink, practice the principles in all of our affairs, say your prayers, talk to your sponsor, attend meetings, and help another alcoholic who still suffers than Midtown is doing the work of AA.

I pray that Mike Q is in a better place.

Marc, thanks for your reporting on this story. As an "old timer" (a phrase I hate but it is true) I was impressed you were able to get such a good feel for what our program is about and the essential way in which Midtown has perverted it.

It's interesting why AA has not reigned in this outlaw group; you allude to the concept of anonymity and the fact that AA is not really an organization but an amorphous movement, a fellowship based on the principles of moral behavior and individual honest and integrity, and one without actual rules or membership lists. Those are true reasons, IMO.

Our concept of anonymity in the public media is one grounded in the concept that we should be governed by "principles, not personalities" and the idea that if everyone is anonymous in the media, the AA name will never be drawn into public controversy. Indeed, some Midtown members have vehemently argued in the blog posting to your first article that anonymity should shield lawbreakers. Let me assure you and every non-AA member who might be reading that real AA members obey the law. We are not a secret society and do not shield lawbreakers. In fact, it is strongly suggested that every member take responsibility for and make amends for his or her actions, past or present, that harmed someone.

The concept that anonymity should shield a "charismatic" "leader" who "runs" an AA group for years is, to any real AA member, highly ironic and offensive in a way that might even be difficult for a non-member to fully appreciate. AA has no leaders, only "trusted servants" who serve as volunteers for short periods of time; they serve the other members and they "do not govern". (For example, members volunteer to make coffee, line up logistics and the like.) Given that we do not accept outside contributions and take in a minimal amount to cover basic expenses like renting a room at a local church or buying nominal refreshments, and give the rest away, there are really no decisions involving money. The emphasis is on meetings and discussing our issues. Each person may say basically what he or she wishes without any crosstalk or criticism. No one tells anyone what to do.

This last emphasis, focusing on oneself and not interfering in others' lives, is possibly the biggest barrier to AA in trying to do something about Midtown. As most people know from common experience, those who overly criticize and try to direct the lives of others frequently do this to avoid looking at and working on themselves. Alcoholics (and most everyone in AA regards alcoholism as a lifetime condition, even after many years without a drink) seem especially susceptible to try and direct the lives of others, and so are especially on guard for any hint of this in their own behavior. This makes many, many members reluctant to intervene in the Midtown situation, given that they fear it might bring out this kind of behavior in themselves and lead them back to alcohol. It's also our tradition that each AA group is independent, except when its behavior harms other groups or AA as a whole. (The qualifying clause is often overlooked, however.)

So our fellowship is especially vulnerable to those who wish to pervert it.

Many Midtowners argue that they have a fun group of fellowship, that they don't drink, that sexual relationships heal, and similar arguments. Well, to some extent that is true. However, what's the price? Many members, especially young females, have been harmed by sexual abuse and predation, and they are further harmed when they are called liars and thieves, and subject to unrelenting verbal abuse and threats to reveal the secrets they have revealed as part of their "treatment". Many other members, by virtue of paying for their sponsor's vacations and doing domestic and yard work for free for years, are being exploited. Many members who have been pressured to quit psychotherapy and drop their medications (and many mental illnesses are organic illnesses, not simply emotional problems) are harmed tremendously. (One person I knew went off all his psychotropic medication at once and committed suicide two days later.)

And yet we're told that Midtown is "fun". Well, it's certainly fun if you are a male getting as much sex with numerous young women as you want, if someone else is paying for your vacation, and if someone else is doing your house cleaning and yard work for free. However, it's not recovery. It's not sobriety. It is not Alcoholics Anonymous. It is parasitic and it is exploitative. And the predators and parasites of Midtown, whose "program" is diametrically opposed to essentially everything AA stands for, have no right to call themselves an AA group.

Mom of AA wrote:

"The only reason I can read this and not be outraged that it's sensational is that I know that the program works, and that people who haven't been there don't have a clue about it."

What about the people who have been, or whose children have been there, and have been harmed or exploited?

Why on earth would a 60 yr. old man surround himself with underage girls?

That doesn't seem at all odd? And that some of those young women would make allegations of impropriety seems entirely outside the realm of possiblity?

Midtown has long been, and seemingly continues to be, operating outside the tenets of AA. If you wish to call yourself an AA group then don't act alarmed when people expect you to follow the principles of AA.

For example: Midtown's part in all this?

Amends to anyone? Individuals? Other AA groups? AA as a whole?

Explanations on why there is even a "group" called Midtown? Not a meeting...a GROUP. AA doesn't do that.

Explanations or denouncements of Mike Q as "a leader." AA doesn't do that, either.

All the rationalizations, denial, minimizing, and finger pointing are not necessary if Midtown is following the principles of the program. But don't take the name of something decent and change its message against its will and not expect that you won't be asked to be accountable for that.

Eventually, we all die.

And God sorts it all out.

AA butNotMidtown, I'm also not Midtown and have never been. I have over 20 yrs.

Can you really think that if the activities described in the articles, posts, and (for me) the personal accounts of people I know and trust are even remotely true, that Midtowners could be "practicing the principles in all their affairs" and "helping the alcoholic who still suffers"? Truly?

I have a friend who was in Midtown some years ago and defends it, rationalizes its behavior (no one who knows her can figure this out, actually). Anyway, after a spirited exchange with her during which she defended Midtown to the skies, she added at the end "But I hope Mike Q burns in hell".

I believe that heaven and hell are on earth, not in any afterlife. And on earth, Michael Quinones created a hell for many desperate people who were suffering and went to his group for help.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with mind games and rape to take your mind off drinking!

For those who have been influenced by Mike Q, the ones furiously defending Midtown or Mike Q, I feel truly sorry for you. Mike will meet his creator, his God, or his Devil. We dont know. But look at the facts and question for yourself. You do not need a reporter to question, a police officer to question, an ex Midtown member to question, or a priest, a therapist, a mother or a dry cleaner. The steps of AA and the traditions of AA are there to guide an alcoholic to become a useful productive member of society. For those that held Mike is such esteem, When and Where did he become a productive member of scociety OUTSIDE OF AA? or with his own FAMILY? Does any one ever question that??
There was a man preaching the miracles of AA, when he NEVER EVER made amends to any one in his own family?? isnt that the 9th step? Amends, to make whole, at least attempt. He did have 2 wonderful kids that he NEVER made time for. He had at least 2 ex wives, many girlfriends and 100's of sex slaves.
He did not hold a job for any length of time (3 years max) been bankrupt a few times SOBER. This man appologized to no one, a self rightous ass.

So for those that have followed in Mikes footsteps, God be with you, or may you find a real man to follow now.
Are you not questioning why his own children did NOT attend his funeral? This was not a man that had love in his heart. If there was no personal gain either financial or sexual he had absolutely nothing to do with it, and that included his family. This was not a sound man or a good man.

for those parents thinking that Midtown was a miracle, AA is a miracle, not midtown, not Mike Q. I fear those that aspire to be like Mike, to think there are possible clones of him is a dreadful thought if not a nightmare.

exexex, thank you! I didn't know that Michael Quinones was such a failure in life and that his children didn't attend his funeral. I knew, of course, that he lived with teenaged girls for years, that he lived with a 19 year old girl up to his death.

To the parents of children who thought Midtown was a miracle, I only agree with exexex that AA is the miracle here. And it truly is a miracle that the twisted and perverted version of AA practiced in Midtown worked at all. I hope that your children will now be able to free themselves of this group and find the real AA so that they may live a sober life.

I do not celebrate the death of anyone but I know that the DC recovery community is better off without Mike Q (real name Edward Quinones, Jr.). If he was such a great man, why did he go by his brother's name? Why did he reject his own family? I am acquainted with members of his immediate family. When I heard he had died, I called them to confirm and offer condolences. They were unaware of his death. His son had not been allowed to see his father before his death. I do not think they were even aware of the recent services, which would explain their absence. One of them thought he might be sent back to Puerto Rico where his mother lives. Was she at the memorial services?

The Q group (which became the Midtown groups) had a reputation for being sexual predators when I got clean 20 years ago. AA refused to address the improprieties and enabled Midtown to develop. I noted with interest the posting here from the person who said all of non-Midtown AA was so boring, that people don't stay there and the real recovery is in Midtown. This is classic cult thinking - us vs. them, we are the only ones with the real message, etc. If the rest of AA and other 12 step fellowships are so bad, then how do you explain how AA has survived prior to Midtown or Mike Q and how do you explain why the non-Midtown groups are full of people with over 20 years in recovery?

I challenge Midtown to show they indeed follow the traditions of AA. First, open up membership of your groups to any alcoholic with the desire to stop drinking, not just those who have sponsors that belong to the group. Let any alcoholic vote in your group conscience. Second, open up your group financial records to other members of AA. Third, attend some non-Midtown AA meetings on your own, not with a Midtown entourage. Meet and talk with members there. You don't have to mention Midtown, just talk recovery. Or are you afraid of what you might learn?

It's my understanding that AA and it's members generally don't debate; not in private nor in public. I'm sad that folks reading these articles and the blog postings will have their opinions of AA tainted. Alcoholics Anonymous is a gorgeous program of action for the treatment of Alcoholism. I could never repay the debt of sobriety, the sobriety of many of my family members and friends, but, if I'm lucky, I will die trying.

I'm a well travelled AA member and have been to meetings all over the country. I've been to a couple Midtown group meetings and found them largely just like other AA meetings. I'm grateful for the tools I have to get over my own personal resentments, worries, concerns and fears and not have to take them out in public or media.

Folks, please be aware that this is a public forum and our words matter.

Take good care,

Kirk

It's my understanding that AA and it's members generally don't debate; not in private nor in public. I'm sad that folks reading these articles and the blog postings will have their opinions of AA tainted. Alcoholics Anonymous is a gorgeous program of action for the treatment of Alcoholism. I could never repay the debt of sobriety, the sobriety of many of my family members and friends, but, if I'm lucky, I will die trying.

I'm a well travelled AA member and have been to meetings all over the country. I've been to a couple Midtown group meetings and found them largely just like other AA meetings. I'm grateful for the tools I have to get over my own personal resentments, worries, concerns and fears and not have to take them out in public or media.

Folks, please be aware that this is a public forum and our words matter.

Take good care,

Kirk

It's my understanding that AA and it's members generally don't debate; not in private nor in public. I'm sad that folks reading these articles and the blog postings will have their opinions of AA tainted. Alcoholics Anonymous is a gorgeous program of action for the treatment of Alcoholism. I could never repay the debt of sobriety, the sobriety of many of my family members and friends, but, if I'm lucky, I will die trying.

I'm a well travelled AA member and have been to meetings all over the country. I've been to a couple Midtown group meetings and found them largely just like other AA meetings. I'm grateful for the tools I have to get over my own personal resentments, worries, concerns and fears and not have to take them out in public or media.

Folks, please be aware that this is a public forum and our words matter.

Take good care,

Kirk

i got sober in the dc area almost 20 yrs ago and i watched the reality of the mid town group and what they practised. about 17 yrs ago i met a young lady at a mtg at mont general hospital who had gotten involved with the midtown crowd almost from day 1. she was shaking and crying because "they" had told her that she could no longer take her prescribed meds for her depression and bi-polar disease because if she did, she would be "using" and therefore not sober. she desperately wanted to be sober so....she did as she was told. at about 90 days she found a gun and blew her brains out. what i remember best was a midtown "member" saying...."well, i guess she wasn't ready yet". not a bit of remorse.
EVERYTHING that you have printed about the Q group is the gods honest truth and the only ones who will write defending the group are their own members.
keep up the good work

Kirk,

Thanks for your thoughts. As a member with over 20 years, I was horrified to read of the activities of the Midtown group in Newsweek, on the front page of the Sunday Washington Post last month, and to see numerous local TV news stories. A criminal started and is underway. Churches started kicking out meetings. All this happened before any debate on this web site.

I understand a national TV news show is doing the story as well. You seem to getting into this forum late here. I suggest you read the original article and comments at http://blog.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2007/07/midtown_group_aa_group_leads_m.html

Yes, many meetings at Midtown aren't very different. But the reality just beneath the surface is sickening. Since the articles came out, I have talked to many people I've known for years, some of them victims of the organized sexual abuse in Midtown, some who confirmed the other exploitation and tactics referred to in the story. I'm afraid this is something AA can no longer ignore.

Midtown is not AA. It is a twisted and perverted version of AA where "service work" means having sex with your sponsor, "selfless" means paying for his vacation and doing his house work and yardwork, "going to any lengths to stay sober" means stopping prescription drugs, breaking off from family, not going to any meeting not a part of the Midtown group, and much more. These are not sensational charges in a tabloid, but researched statements that many members have confirmed since the stories came out through their AA network - stories that many victims had left in the past but now confirm. And it's still happening.

The blame for all this can be left at the feet of the male leadership "hierarchy" at Midtown. The only way the public will blame AA for this is if we now do nothing.

Correction: "...a criminal investigation started and is underway..."

If some of the defenders of Midtown sound juvenile in these comments, it is because they are, in fact, juveniles. That's the problem.

Anyone who travels in DC AA, not under the cult spell of Midtown, knows exactly what is going on with that group. One need only meet a few young female refugees and chat with some AA folks who have been in Washington for a decade or so.

The facts are established. The question is: what does anyone do about it? Relying on Intergroup or New York has never worked. Is it possible for a group of people with long term sobriety to attend all the Midtown meetings, week after week, to spread the genuine message of AA? Can any group of mature adults match the perserverence of an army of 19 year olds?

Kirk wrote: "It's my understanding that AA and it's members generally don't debate; not in private nor in public."

You're right. We "GENERALLY" don't.

Except that in this situation there are minors who are being exploited by older men in the name and guise of AA.

The media has written about it and broadcast it at the local, national, and international level.

I believe that we AAs need to speak out that this is NOT our beloved organization.

That we do not CONDONE what is happening in Midtown.

And explain, not only to the general public, but to Midtown members themselves, where their group has departed from AA principles.

Midtown members are discouraged from attending other AA meetings.

They do not have certain AA-approved literature available to them at their meetings.

They have been told so many things "in the name of AA" which are either half-truths or patently false, that they really don't understand why others condemn or question thier actions.

And they will NOT stick around for any face-to-face discussion once they learn that you are not a Midtown supporter.

And it's been going on for decades.

This seems as good a place as any to explain why they are so "misunderstood" (as they so often claim). To explain what others have seen and experienced. To explain what AA really says about things like sponsorship, finances, medications, and traditions.

If they've never heard that AA frowns upon men sponsoring girls (as I have personally witnessed), then they can't even begin to understand why people think there is something wrong with their group's behavior.

If they haven't been exposed to the ideas in the Traditions, they have no idea how unusual it is that a GROUP of meetings all fall under one umbrella name: Midtown.

If they haven't been allowed to serve at a local or regional level, they have no idea how strange it is that their meetings (which number in the 100s), make no donations to AA. Or perhaps what a "prudent reserve" means w/ regards to group funds.

Most of the people I've met from Midtown are decent, kind people who have little idea of what sets their group apart. They have been told a set of lies about jealousy, resentment, and ignorance regarding anyone who questions or criticizes their group. Most of us are none of those things.

Barring the issues of minors not being able to truly consent, and the use of the AA name, I would be fine with ADULT Midtowners doing whatever they're doing--provided they are making an informed choice.

If they freely choose to give all their money away and sleep with predators, who am I to judge.

Just don't call it AA.

And don't do it to kids who don't know what's going on and can't legally consent to it regardless.

I was once a Midtown member, "ex-Q", and I can honestly and soberly state that all allegations against Mike Q and the Midtown Group are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY TRUE!!!! Mike was a vicious and manipulate dictator of human minds, using A.A. principles as a means for his own self-fulfillment and sexual exploitations. I can say this, because he was my sponsor. I entered the group knowing full well about all the rumors of the group, and was slowly "brain-washed" into their cult-like activities. I was not aloud to associate with friends I had known in the A.A. for years that were not part of the "Midtown" or "Q" group, and that I could only go to meetings with Midtown group members. I was "appointed" a sponsor and not able to chose one for myself. I had at one point 18 service positions in A.A. that keep me estranged from my family. I was told that I needed sex in order to be happy. I was told to stop taking prescribed medicine, that all I needed was the steps and my sponsor. I was told to get Mike Q. as my sponsor and did so. I was sexually approached by Mike several times, and when I turned him down, I was shunned by him and members of the group, not allowed at his beach house, and forced to do yard work, clean his house, not go one trips, ignored my members and friends and made to feel extremely shamed.

"But then there's Midtown, a place where you know people will always be doing something active and sober." I feel so sorry for the person who wrote this and for the people that are still being lured to believe the lies created and dispelled by a sick, perverted man whose only self interest was sex and servicing himself.
Mike and his appointed soldiers used A.A. money and money from A.A. members in the group to finance extravagant vacations in Mystique, California, Florida, and the Islands. Mike bought fancy cars, fancy clothes, and even expensive bed linens with money from members from the group.
I had the displeasure of working very closely with him and witnessed and over-heard many conversations and meetings with members of the group, and they were not AT ALL in line with what A.A. practices.

MIDTOWN and MIKE Q. are an abomination to A.A. and I truly pray that the group with cease to exist now that Mike is DEAD! I am forever grateful I left the Midtown group, and I am grateful and sober member of A.A.

I think DCC and Jane need to get a grip. They are so quick to shout down anyone that offers any kind of different opionion, wether they be from midtown or not.

Why don't you try reading the black parts of pages 60 to 64 in the big book? Just because some has a different opinion, one that you may not agree with, doesn't make either of you right. No matter how justified you believe you are.

Holding onto so much spite and anger really is unhealthy, you may want to take a look at that.

Trying to help people and spread a positive message of recovery is one thing, being spiteful and ugly while doing so, is entirely another. But then again anger, justified or not never really is that attractive, is it?

Ex midtown member,

Where do you go to meetings? Maybe I'll come by and check it out sometime.

My 29 yo brother's recovery from drug abuse is due to his involvement with Midtown. Midtown is largely made up of young people and I think it's helped my brother to be around young people who don't drink/use drugs. It's hard to find that elsewhere! Of course, he's a guy, and I don't have a female's perspective, but I hope everyone remembers that this group has helped a lot of people - my family will be forever grateful.

(blank), I'm unclear what you mean that Jane and I "are so quick to shout down anyone that offers any kind of different opinion".

Can you give an example of this? Because I haven't shouted at anybody. My argument is that the sexual predation of young women who come to AA for help only to be exploited should end now. The exploitation of members should end now.

One of the most evil traits at Midtown is twisting the meaning of AA slogans and literature. "Service work", "selflessness", and "going to any lengths to stay sober" always end up boiling down to having sex with your sponsor and giving money to your sponsor for his vacation or other large purchases. And you talk about "unhealthy"?

The post directly above yours, from "Ex Midtown Member", is from a person whose sponsor was Mike Q, whose real name was Edward Quinones. Perhaps you can address that post rather than making your vague criticism.

If you are interested in something pertinent from our program which explains this controversy, perhaps you could consider the Responsibility Statement we all subscribe to:

"Whenever anyone, anywhere reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA always to be there; And for that, I am responsible."

I take this seriously. I don't want young people, or anyone, who come to AA for help to be exploited and exploited by predators masquerading as AA.

(blank) wrote: "I think DCC and Jane need to get a grip. They are so quick to shout down anyone that offers any kind of different opionion, wether they be from midtown or not.

Why don't you try reading the black parts of pages 60 to 64 in the big book? Just because some has a different opinion, one that you may not agree with, doesn't make either of you right. No matter how justified you believe you are.

Holding onto so much spite and anger really is unhealthy, you may want to take a look at that."
****************

Firstly, I'm not angry or spiteful. Perhaps you are reading a tone into my words that isn't there. I'm concerned about this issue. If there have been children abused then that angers me. But I'm definitely not spiteful and angry about what I perceive to be Midtown's operating outside of AA's principles. Concerned and looking for clarity--but not angry.

Secondly, shouting down? I've asked questions welcoming dialogue and information on this and the other blog repeatedly. I'm very interested in what Midtown supporters have to say on the matter. Most of the responses, however, have been violations of the user agreement, and have not addressed the questions I've posed.

Finally, differing opinions are fine. I've yet to insult, degrade, or attack those with differing opinions. Supporters of Midtown have NOT responded in kind. That is also in black and white for anyone to read.

But the fact of the matter is, is that Midtown does not seem to operate under the guidelines and principles of AA. Those aren't principles I've made up. I didn't write the sponsorship pamphlet where it suggests that we use same-sex sponsors. I didn't write the Tradition that states we do not create outside groups within AA. I didn't write the step which says we make amends to those we've harmed.

So I'm extremely interested in hearing HOW exactly the defenders of Midtown reconcile their claims that Midtown is simply another AA group, with the fact that their group openly tolerates men sponsoring women, calls themselves "Midtown," and jusitifies IT'S behavior with regards to multiple people making some very serious allegations against it.

If those things aren't true, then please show me.

If they are....then those are instances where Midtown is operating outside the AA guidelines--and that's a problem.

Listening eagerly......

You are basing your report on a Myspace page? You truly are pathetic reporter Mark Fisher. Your comment about the moment of silence came from a girl known as Onley Amanda, although she now likes to be called Mandie. Ask her about the people that helped her? Or are you just reading her comments on Myspace?

Mark, please. I am begging you... Grow up. Leave this man's life alone. He died and he will be missed. I hope when I die I will have affected so many people's lives.

ALl... Mike passed away a week ago. Apparently, you have not heard. But he is not around to investigate, harrass, stalk (yes he was stalked by some of you) bother or slander. He is at rest now. Maybe you should all do the same, give it a rest.

Thanks Huhhh, Mark's reporting has been disgusting.

For the record, Midtown's malfeasance was discussed at a Regional Service Assembly meeting BEFORE the original Post article, or any knowledge of it appeared.

Of course your not clear Jane and DCC, exactly my point.

Actually, Mark has done a great service to the community by bringing the atrocities of Mike Q. and the members of the Midtown Group to the attention of the public. Many people have wanted this for a long, long time. Thank you Mark for your reporting. Thank you for this Blog. Thank you for your previous Washington Post article on Mike and Midtown.
Also, thank you to the AA members who have and hopefully will continue to bring Midtown's Malfeasance to the Regional Assemblies.
Mark, you are awesome and an excellent reporter. :-) Thank you!!!!!!!!!

Sorry I spelled your name wrong Marc.
Still think you're an awesome reporter.
Thank you again for your article and this blog.

Dear (blank), I asked for an example to back up your vague and inchoate charge. Where is it?

I think it's interesting that (blank) illustrates perfectly two points from yesterday. The first is that Midtown supporters utilize the "ad hominem abusive" attack in which they attack a person making an argument rather than the argument itself (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) I have read both these blogs in detail (this and at http://blog.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2007/07/midtown_group_aa_group_leads_m.html) and have not seen a single instance where anyone from Midtown has even attempted to refute any of the charges. They have also not answered a single factual question raised by others.

The other point this illustrates is the general reluctance of AA members to get into controversy or to even appear to criticize another person. (blank) tries to make use of this general attitude to counsel me, expressing mock concern about my health and advising me to do a certain reading about anger. This is just another example of Midtown turning good AA advice and slogans into cover for the predators of Midtown.

It's interesting to me that in the face of a rising tide of ex-Midtown members (and by the way, I'm not one and found out about this through the Post article but I have since talked to trusted friends who had been abused but had been embarrassed to discuss it prior to the article) who are coming out with their personal stories of incredible abuse, (blank) focuses his or her selective attention only on those who oppose the abuse.

If (blank) were as reasonable a person as he or she is presenting himself or herself as, wouldn't (blank) show some concern for the victims of the abuse or the predators and parasites who perpetuate it? Wouldn't he or she at least have any interest in whether these incredibly serious charges are true?

Very moving.

I sincerely hope that when you die at least one of your children, or your mother, or just anyone from your family, comes to your funeral. Unfortunately that wasn't the case with Edward Quinones, Jr. aka "Mike Q".

I also sincerely hope that you affect other's lives. But I hope it's positively, not negatively like Edward Quinones, Jr. did.

By the way, does anyone know why he went by his brother's name? Just curious.

(My post was to Huhhh.)

The accusations against Mike Q and his lieutenants concerning sex, money and abuses of power are correct; and the few people defending them are either brainwashed or they are liars.

Oh, and I seriously doubt that the group will dissolve because there's still plenty to be gained by people like Jack, Arno, John, etc. They've clawed their way to the top of the pyramid and with Mike gone the power is there for the taking.

It is rather disturbing that not one post (that I can recall) from any Midtown supporter has addressed the allegations with anything other than, essentially, "So what?" "That's not my problem." "But there's been a lot of good," or many, many personal or character attacks.

That, in and of itself, is not in keeping with the behavior AA suggests for its members.

The point is being made over and over again: Midtown, and its members, have some sort of program, but it is NOT AA.

Either fix your program/group to be in line with AA, or stop using the AA name.

If the behavior and conduct on this, and Marc Fisher's previous blog page, are any indication of what Midtown is like, I simply don't find the allegations of impropreity and abuse to be hard to believe.

If you can't "practice the principles" on a website blog, you aren't going to convince me that you're practicing the principles in other areas.

"By the way, does anyone know why he went by his brother's name? Just curious"

Oh that's a VERY interesting question. Perhaps someone should look into the matter. Who knows what might turn up...

I have been a member of AA in the DC area for over 10 years, however, I've never hit a Midtown meeing nor had I met Mike Q. Having said that, this controversy should be put to bed. The co-founders of AA wrote the traditions to protect ourselves from ourselves. We all have our own program and our own meetings. It is not my responsibility to rescue AA'ers from a meeting that I may feel is harmful to them. My responsibility is to be there when an alcoholic walks through the door of one of my meetings.

"It is not my responsibility to rescue AA'ers from a meeting that I may feel is harmful to them."

I totally agree.

Except in this case it's MINORS.

Whole different kettle of fish...

If we AAs stand by, silent, while children are exploited in the name of our program, then that's wrong.

And b/c this issue has been made public already, to stand by in silence now, I believe, affects the reputation of AA as a whole.

How are we a program of attraction, if we hide, defend, and/or ignore those who exploit children in our ranks?

With Midtown it seem's like the cure is worse than the disease...(if your a young female at least)

What would Bill W. do?, your position is not uncommon in AA. Certainly our primary responsibility is for our own meetings and to preserve our own sobriety and help other alcoholics who walk thru our meeting's doors to achieve sobriety. I have no disagreement there.

I disagree with your position but understand it. I just feel this is hurting our program as a whole and hurts many individuals in the name of AA. I think our traditions assume that everyone in our program is honest, and clearly that's almost entirely true but not 100% true. And we assume that bad meetings will wither away, leaving the true AA. In that Midtown has been abusing women for over 20 years, according to much evidence that has accumulated, that doesn't appear true either.

I agree with many others in this forum that this is a very sad state of affairs for our fellowship and poses some hard decisions, both moral, as to our responsibility for others we don't even know, and for our own sobriety, which potentially can be damaged or lost by some members who might get too much into adversarial conflict in this matter.

I come down on the side of getting involved. At the worst time in my life AA was there for me and I want our miraculous program to be there for others in the future. No one can predict the future but it seems to me that if good members of our fellowship (and that's almost everyone, in my experience) now do nothing our program is in danger and we will live to regret it.

Jane D is absolutely right. People have stood by in silence long enough and let this happen. I left the group a long time ago, THANK GOD! Reading all this commentary as well as the Post and Newsweek articles brings me great happiness that the exploitations of Mike Q. and the Midtown group are finally getting publicized and hopefully there will be repercussions on the group other than their losing meeting space in Churches. At the same time it makes me so sad for all the young members who are caught in the lies and deceit of the Midtown group. Midtown has gotten even worse. It is not surprising. Mike was a predator, and the other top leaders mentioned, are predators of the worst kind. They prey on those who come into a group seeking help and hope. Those who are lured into the group are lavished with phone numbers and movie parties, dances, and social activities, only to be cohered later into sex and mind manipulation. Many of the "young people" that are attracted to this group are under the age of 17. Many of the Senior members who have exploited the members in the group are twice, three, four times their age. Many of the young people who come into the group also come from abusive backgrounds, be it sexual abuse, abusive parents, abuse from the streets, etc. and it leaves them as easy prey for these people. I witnessed it over and over. Mike was the master and trust me, although he is dead, he instructed his soldiers and their girlfriends, now wives, well enough to carry on. I pray for an end to all this sickness. A.A. does not deserve it and neither do the newcomers.

If members of AA feel so strongly that something should be done about the Midtown Group, then become a GSR and/or attend the next WAIA Board of Directors meeting as well as the Washington Area General Service Assembly meeting. If not, there's always Al-Anon.

Isn't one of the traditions of alcoholics anonymous anonymity? The anti-midtown group has been posting names all over their blogs of members.

Also funny is the person who runs that site is like 40 and married to a 21 year old. Went after her when she was a teen.

Renee is Shawn. Shawn is the creator of http://www.myspace.com/thefallofmidtownliars. Shawn is a long term Midtown Member who has spread his lies throughout the internet, while posting my full name, posting pictures of me and videos of my wife, on the internet. I attempted to post my response to what he, and his group has continued to do, but the author of this blog has not accepted it for posting (yet?). I shall try once again, for Shawn had paid no attention to any Traditions that I am aware of, while he has continued his offensive, through his smear campaign Midtown propaganda endeavors. A worse example of a human being you would find most difficult discovering, and he's well established within the Midtown collective. Go figure...

First of all, I have to admit that I was wrong about who created the Myspace profile, "fallofmidtownlairs". I had assumed that it was "sickgirl", because she was (at one point) its only friend and supporter and because of the previous emails that I received from her that were overtly negative and all too frequent. Although I cannot understand why anyone in A.A. would accept a friend request by such a site, I have to make amends to her for calling her out as the creator, now that it has been proven to me that she is not. I am sorry that I called you out as the creator of that slanderously fictitious profile sickgirl. Unfortunately, you allowed yourself to be used by what has been proven to be a Midtown Group member, to help strengthen Midtown, at the cost of A.A. as a whole.

The creator of the "fallofmidtownlairs" Myspace profile is a long term member of the Midtown Group; a group that has represented itself as a cult, and has behaved as such, for over 20 years now. The name of its creator is Shawn. Shawn is a typically weak willed Midtown Group member who has been conditioned to become and remain completely dependent on the Midtown Group. I can say this without any reservation for he, himself, has (publicly) gotten on top of his Midtown soapbox and described how he couldn't stay dry from alcohol without the Midtown Group, and if truth be told, he could not and he did not, when he tried. Perhaps, if he was introduced to A.A.'s program of recovery to begin with, he may have had a real chance to recover from alcoholism. I cannot say.

Myspace, with the help of some very concerned and highly agitated friends of mine were able to track the exact residential address of the thefallofmidtownliars profile creator (Shawn), by several methods; one of which was a means of tracking, known as "pinging". I'm not going to pretend that I understand the exact process, or the small pains that they took to secure all of the other information involved, but the result points to one person, and that person is Shawn, who lives in a typical Midtown Group Home, near Seven Locks Road. Sickgirl obviously does not live near, or around Seven Locks Road. There are two other Midtown informational sources that have confirmed that he was the creator.

These helpful individuals were able to discover several other identities that Shawn currently uses, in order to spread his Midtown Propaganda. These online identities are, but are not limited to:

onegoodlookinthemirror@gmail.com

timparsons1@gmail.com

timparsons2@gmail.com

AndynMaryland

www.doitsober.com

MySpace URL: http://www.myspace.com/thefallofmidtownliars

And "Easy", also of Myspace, who happens to be thefallofmidtownliars only real friend.

There are several other web addresses that are documented, but those show the exact identity of Shawn. Out of my respect for A.A., I would prefer to handle this without revealing his full identity. He did not respect my identity, by any stretch of the imagination, when he posted my full name on various web addresses, as he stated that I was stalking and 13 stepping my wife when she was 16. What Shawn knows, all too well, is that she was preyed upon when she was 15/16 with less than two weeks experience in A.A. A Midtown Group member who was in his 30's preyed upon her, as he had with numerous 14/15/16 year olds, over a period no less than 10 years... To suggest that this pedophile was the only one (in the Midtown Group) who behaved as such, would create a large laugh throughout many other A.A. groups, as well as within many Midtown meetings. Every time I hear people saying that that never happens, I want to spit in their face. To be sure, when I first read Shawn's shining example of his spiritual program, I and others, wanted to do worse than that to him.

The truth is that many of these females that were preyed upon or basically raped, before or after their 16th birthday, have such a level of disgust over what was done to them (by the Midtown Group-as-a-whole) that many of them choose to walk forward and attempt to wash themselves of that horrible experience. Remember, it's usually their sponsorship lineage, and their "closest Midtown friends" that led them to that (possibly ongoing) horrible experience, then it was their sponsorship lineage, and their "closest Midtown friends" that manipulated them to suck it up and hold it deep inside of then, less they be ostracized from the only higher power that most of them have been manipulated to become co-dependent on. Don't even mention the fact that the judicial system is not gentle with those who have been victimized and want justice. Most of them, and for damn good reason, have little interest in being victimized twice.

Every time Shawn emailed me, over a period of 6 months, he used the name onegoodlookinthemirror. I initially assumed that it was Sickgirl because she was sending her emails through Myspace, at around the same time. When I finally blocked him, he began emailing my friends, with personal information about me, which included pictures of me, and previous Myspace comments, that I had posted up to six months before he had emailed me. To suggest that he is overtly obsessed with me would be a vast understatement. Unfortunately, his obsession didn't stop with me, nor did the harm stop with him. He has had help from other Midtown Group members, who have (for the most part) apparently worked independently of one another, in order to publicly discredit ex midtown members who have spoken out against the group and the harm that they provide to A.A.'s vulnerable Newcomers.

Shawn, as well as (at least) three other (confirmed) Midtown Group members (of whom I will not identify by name at this time) have continually posted the contents of previous Midtown Group member's personal 5th steps or intimately private conversations on the internet, after those that confided in them were ostracized from the Midtown Group. Need a recent example? On the internet is a (less than two week old) posting from one of these 4 Midtown Group members who heard, in an extremely intimate and private conversation, how another (now ostracized) member drank the bath water of his Guru. This was discussed, at depth, in full confidence that this Midtown Group member would not disclose that which was meant to be heard by him and the higher power of the person who was discussing this with him. Unfortunately, for most of the Midtown Group, the group itself is their higher power, so the established hierarchy of the group hears a great many of these 5th steps and extremely intimate and private conversations . This behavior was first established by Mike, who encouraged his trusted Lieutenants to tell what was discussed in their pigeons 5th steps. I remember seeing this when Mike was my grand sponsor, over 20 years ago. That behavior, as well as others, have only become more refined since then. What these Midtown Group members have done, in regards to this behavior (out of many), as it relates to A.A.'s principles, is criminal.

This is one of the ways that the Midtown Group attempts to discredit the members who are voluntarily or involuntarily exiting, as they are being ostracized from the only higher power that they were motivated to rely upon. You see, if those exiting members thrived outside of the care of their self made higher power, then Midtown's hypothesis that anyone who left the group will drink, would crumble, and as a result, the fear that holds a great many of them there, would no longer work. Keeping them distracted by sex, (false) status, (false) security and humorous activities can only keep the young people there distracted for so long. I cannot even begin to calculate the amount of harm that these Midtown Group members have consciously implemented; all so that their self made higher power could thrive and temporarily relieve them of their thirst for alcohol and destructive habitual tendencies. What most of them have chosen to ignore, is the entirely new and destructive set of behaviors that their new group, as a whole, have helped them to implement.

Here's a little personal information about the thefallofmidtownliars profile that a few Midtown members already knew of.

One the date of its conception, Shawn, several other Midtown members, Anna and I shared a single cabin at a spiritual retreat, hosted by A.A. members, both inside of and outside of the Midtown Group. These A.A. members endeavored to create a growing sense of unity throughout our local fellowship, as our differences continued to rise and climb, because of the Midtown Group, its philosophy and a great many A.A. members having difficulty accepting or understanding it. On the second day of the retreat, while I was conducting an 11 step workshop, Shawn created thefallofmidtownliars profile. The reality of the situation is that he was not alone in this creation. Several other Midtown Group members knew about this at the time, or very soon afterward. Another reality is that a Midtown Group member called me a couple of days afterward, and expressed a sincere disgust over what was done to Anna and me. For this, I thank him. It made me remember that there are individuals with character left inside of the Midtown Group, and that I have to remember this fact.

That Saturday night, as a true musician and I played music together in front of a beautiful fire, I also made fireplace treats for those sitting around the main musician. I approached Shawn with one of them and offered it to him unconditionally. He accepted it without gratitude, as I would have expected from him, then I continued playing the drums on a true musician's guitar case. That night, Anna offered him and the other Midtown group members blankets, because it was getting colder. One of them accepted a blanket with gratitude, for that person was ill prepared for the night weather. The next day he stayed physically inactive in the hectic kitchen as people worked around him, in order to make breakfast for everyone there. He video taped my (then) fiancée climbing on the chef's rack (in order to help stabilize the chef's working environment), hoping that she would fall. When he sarcastically asked her a fairly stupid question, she chose to ignore him and he posted that on the internet as well.

When he created that site and posted various other lies about her and I on other internet web sites, he knew, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Anna and I were not only coming up on our Birthdays in a couple of days, but that we were to be married in less than a week. As with most alcoholics with untreated alcoholism, he remains in a state of conscious misery, and as with most alcoholics who are fixated within this constant and horrible state, he would prefer that others remain there with him. In a large way, I do feel sorry for him. To be within his head, alone at night with his eyes closed and nothing but his misery to distract him from himself, would be a state of being that I would find unbearable indeed.

In ending, I would like to offer the clearest case of hypocrisy that I have ever seen in my entire life and I'm offering it up to you, for your viewing displeasure.

View for yourself, just how hypocritical and dishonest this Midtown Group member is. Remember, he is NOT acting alone. On www.doitsober.com (of which he is the administrator) he wrote this message and then stated that an A.A. member outside of the Midtown Group wrote it. I highlighted the parts which are overtly hypocritical and dishonest. In essence, Shawn created the site to defend the Midtown Group, then wrote a defensive letter to that site, then stated that it wasn't himself who wrote it. After which, a couple of months later, he created thefallofmidtownliars. A greater monument to hypocrisy you will never see.

I really enjoy this discussion. I have noticed how many of us have gone back to AA's traditions in our responses. That's a beautiful thing. It shows how powerful and timeless these traditions are. As any AA member knows, these traditions are but guidlines....although like the steps, guidelines many of us take damn seriously! While I agree with 'WWBD' in principle, I have to say that my interpretation of our 10th tradiiton, 'Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy,' IMHO has to do with AA as a whole entering public debates. I don't believe that it covers individual AA members discussing AA in a public forum.

I agree that we have to be mindful as to not damange the name and image of AA, but on the other hand, the practices of Midtown have already damaged our fellowship, and I believe that it is the duty of long-time AA members with experience in the program to provide positive information as to what AA is and isn't. We do exactly the same thing in our Public Information practices where we go out to the public and provide positive info on who we are and what we do. In my opinion this discussion is no different.

This stuff goes on all over the meetings, it's called 13 stepping. Just last year there was a woman up in Germantown who killed herself due to this stuff. Guys hounded her, not because of looks, but because she couldn't stay sober and was easy when she was drunk. Many guys with double digit sobreity were even bringing beer over to her house to get her drunk to get laid.

Alice, it's horrible that this happened in Germantown. Now if you make this a premeditated, assembly line procedure which is done to all newcomer attractive females, by assigning them to older male sponsors, and by twisting all the AA slogans and traditions, you have Midtown.

Well, I'm pretty sure they don't try to get the women drunk, I will grant them that.

Anonymous, I agree. This debate is not about "outside issues". It is expressly about preserving our program. This blog debate probably has one-twentieth of one percent of the non-AA audience that the Newsweek and Washington Post articles had. It seems to me it's quite helpful in bringing out many varying opinions and in showing the character of those who hold the opinions. For that reason I wish the Washington Post *would not censor any comments* as they have been doing. We know what we are going to get here if we criticize Midtown. We ought to be each free to express ourselves and draw our own conclusions, just as we are in an authentic AA meeting. Hopefully, everyone can hold the profanity and the worst abuse, but for those who cannot, their language expresses their character far more than their content.

I also strongly believe that the only way AA could be harmed here is if real AA members do nothing, and in five years we are reading about even more sexual predation and exploitation at Midtown. It's a black mark against us that the predators have apparently been working their abuse for twenty years. To have it continue now would be disgraceful.

What Would Bill W. Do? wrote: "If members of AA feel so strongly that something should be done about the Midtown Group, then become a GSR and/or attend the next WAIA Board of Directors meeting as well as the Washington Area General Service Assembly meeting. If not, there's always Al-Anon."

I think many people who live in DC are getting involved at that level. And have been for some time.

Not everyone lives in DC, though. That shouldn't preclude anyone from calling for answers with regards to these issues.

I find your "Al-Anon" comment very strange.

The suggestion that one is co-dependent because s/he is concerned about whether or not a cult-like group (Midtown has been on cult watch lists for years), carrying the AA name, and accused of preying on children is actually doing these things, is very strange to me.

If this is, indeed, happening how can we stand by and do nothing?

How can we have anything less than a ZERO-tolerance stance if criminals are in our ranks, using our program of love and honesty to prey on children?

How are we supposed to discern where the truth is if we don't ask hard questions and hold the situation up to the light?

If wanting to know whether children have been exploited in the name of AA makes me co-dependant, then so be it, I suppose.

I frankly can't fathom why anyone would object to investigating and denouncing criminal activity with CHILDREN. Or suggest that others who do so have some issues.

I will not keep quiet when I know that our program is being perverted and twisted by a small few, and presented as AA so that pedophiles can have sex with children.

And when all one needs do is stop into a Midtown meeting to see that these men routinely and openly sponsor underage girls, have a history of romantic relationships with underage girls, and have opportunity to be alone with underage girls in private settings........well, it sure doesn't look good. And it makes these allegations seem a lot less far-fetched than they otherwise might.

I think people (AA or not) deserve some answers from this group.

These are very serious issues.

If their members are 100% innocent, then at a minimum they ought to be very carefully looking at what they have done to get themselves in this situation. And working to fix it. Because this has not all just "happened" to them.

And neither has it just happened to the rest of AA. We all bear some part in doing an inventory and making amends.

Because, out of this, AA's name has been publically linked to cult tactics, pedophiles, dispensing dangerous medical advice, and more.

I don't think AA's name ought to be linked with those things and now ALSO linked with a membership who doesn't care if they're happening or not.

I strongly agree with Jane D. ZERO TOLERANCE should be our policy. In addition to all the other abuses, children have been molested in Midtown.

I have contributed to and followed these two blogs for several weeks and I can't think of a more succinct statement about this whole issue than Jane's last two sentences:

"Because, out of this, AA's name has been publically linked to cult tactics, pedophiles, dispensing dangerous medical advice, and more.

"I don't think AA's name ought to be linked with those things and now ALSO linked with a membership who doesn't care if they're happening or not."

Thank you, Jane D.!

So what are you going to do about it? Does it upset me that young paople are being exploited, yes! The police have been involved, yet they can't dig up any evidence to prosecute these people. So what can you do about it?

This group has been going strong for many, many years and I'm sure the issue has been talked about at the area committee meetings. What have they done about it? It all goes back to the 12 Traditions. What are you going to do about it?

Al-Anon is not just about co-dependency. It's about living and let live. We are powerless over people, places and things. If you have the courage to change the things you can, do it. So what are you going to do?

What would Bill W. do?

I have no idea what the solution is.

For my part, I hope that my participation in this forum will expose even a few Midtown members to some specific reasons why people believe they are not practicing the principles of AA in several areas.

Reasons, which are not based on spite, anger, or resentment. Truly it's the principles before personality, for me.

If one Midtown member can hear that it might be advantageous for their group to do a formal Group Inventory and carry that idea to the group, where some self-examination and healing can occur that would be a wonderful start.

If the idea that they could begin to work with other AAs (at the local level and beyond) to make amends for this public relations situation hasn't occurred to them as being something to consider, then I hope they can read that here and consider it.

As I've said before, many parts of our program have been twisted or omitted in Midtown. If Midtown members do not know that there IS an AA approved pamphlet on sponsorship which clearly suggests that we use same-sex sponsors (and if that pamphlet is not displayed at the meetings they are attending, then how could they ever know that?), I would hope that that information here could help them better understand what they are choosing, and why people are critical of their practice of men sponsoring women and girls.

Also, I think it's important the if any of the general public is reading, that at least some sober members of AA clearly state, "We do NOT condone, endorse, or defend the type of behavior this group has been accused of. Further, we welcome ANY investigation into their actions--and our own--which will allow the truth to come to light."

Other than that, I'm praying about it and trusting that the truth will come out.

DCC, Jane, WWBD - There is IMO some really healthy debate and important discussion going on in this blog. This is really important stuff and Jane/DCC, WOW, what a team...your points are sooooo right on. If enough old-timers and people with interest and time started going attending their Sunday night meeting, could they bring change from the inside out? How many would it take? Seems to me that's the only way its going to happen. After that, start a new intergroup...they've been half the problem by completely ignoring you.

Atlanta:
"If enough old-timers and people with interest and time started going attending their Sunday night meeting, could they bring change from the inside out?"

What a shame and sad this is here and not possible with todays sponsorship system which is not even mentioned in the Big Book.

There is many clones breaded by the system
One day I hope one can of being true to thy self instead of being a clone.

It is impossible to be true to thy self when looking for the truth in others.
The sponsorship system is an institution inside of A.A.

sory to say this - this a washington post blog - yes about an aa member, and a renagade group, but the debate on what to do, with all the aa slogans are really going above the publics head. So if you are indeed trying to reach the masses, please step out of your AA slogans, jargon, or parot talk and take the debate to an AA platform. Not the post. I am sure AA has websites for these type of discusions. The public does care about abuses that have occured, but really dont care about how AA or Midtown will fix themselves post Mike Q's death. people will want to see justice, as needed, to serve the public.

sorry - I thought the AA debate was out of touch.

Question, how long have you been off your meds? It wasn't a good idea.

Yes, they were supplying this woman with alcohol left and right. One even showed up at her doorstep with a fifth of whiskey. I have heard many woman say they found booze daddies by coming to AA.

exex, I think probably almost everyone reading and participating is an AA member, although I recall you are not (at least if you are the previous exexex :-)

I think we do need a place to discuss although the sites I've visited don't seem to have nearly the depth of discussion we are having here. I also think the extraneous comments like that above ("how long off meds") and the unpleasant ones keep us reminded of what's at stake.

But I think that 'what would bill do' is absolutely correct. We should organize and do something. There was a post yesterday which I'll find by an Xer that had ideas on how Midtown could improve - I believe they were to allow Midtowners to go to outside meetings, account for their money, and allow any AA member to vote at a group conscience meeting. I was kind of shocked that such things are apparently prohibited now, though I guess I shouldn't be.

I have been in contact with folks here by receiving email on midtownfeedback@yahoo.com and I welcome more. I'm trying to get some things sorted out in my life now but I can make some time to do some work here...

For the peroson who said "I hope Mike is in a better place." Well we all know that Hell is warmer than Costa Rica! He can keep that eternalk tan!

Booze Daddies??? That's just gross. And I'm really sorry to hear about that woman in Germantown...that is so sad.

I would like to add that I hope the new leaders of the Midtown group are monitored somehow...these guys are Q's disciples afterall and I think many of us already know what some of these guys are capable of. So I hope that the people who have been attacking this problem head on continue to do so. Your work is important and I believe it will save lives.

All of the allegations are true. I've sponsored at least 10 women out of this group. Most of the horror stories are the same with a little variation between STD;s, taking meds away, multiple abortions, financial exploitation and 5th-step distribution to the leader (Mike Q) called "Full Disclosure".... But all had a common denominator..sex with assigned older men in the group. I have been sober in AA for 18 years and I have never heard of Full Disclosure, in fact quite the opposite.
Is there a solution? Not as of yet. As long as they continue to infiltrate WAIA and H&I, AA as a whole wil suffer greatly! More will be revealed!

good riddance

It is what it is who can be the watch dog another self proclaimed sponsor. Is there any non drinkers on the board? If there were surly this group would be removed from the directory as some kind of justice and an example to others who promotes in A.A.

ATTENTION ALL WOMEN STILL IN MIDTOWN (and any others looking for a good women's meeting):

I attend one of (if not THE) strongest women's meetings in the area: STEP SISTERS on Thursday nights at Good Shepherd Church in G'Burg at 7:30. It's very close to 270. There are SEVERAL women there who used to be in Midtown. There are SEVERAL more who very recently left Midtown and are trying to start over. They are broken, confused and full of fear. But they are trying, and they are willing one day at a time to make a positive change.

Step Sisters is a group of strong, spiritual women committed to working the Steps of A.A., practicing the principles of A.A., and passing on the message of hope instilled in them from working the program outlined in the Big Book of A.A. We are about 40-50 strong right now, and growing.

Step Sisters is focused on THE STEPS. We don't come and dump about our day. We don't stray off topic. We don't whine about the problem. We are not full of self-pity. We stay focused on the solution and we share openly about how a Higher Power is working through us to help others in the spirit of love and service.

I have attended MANY women's meetings in the area and I can honestly say that not one holds a candle to Step Sisters. I know how to talk about how my relationship sucks or my boss is a jerk or the guy in traffic cut me off or my family doesn't understand me. But how does that help YOU? I have a responsibility as a woman with double digit sobriety to bring a positive message of recovery to those still suffering and to keep my complaints reserved for my sponsor and my H.P.

If you are looking for a way out but don't know where to go or how to start: YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

I know from talking with these women how hard it is to leave Midtown. Leaving essentially means giving up most of your friends, your sponsor, your boyfriend, and a way of life ingrained in you from Day 1 at the Midtown Group. It's also hard to hear A.A. slogans and jargon and discern what is true and what is not. I believe certain members in Midtown knowingly (or unknowingly) use these phrases for their own selfish, controlling purposes. So to hear them in regular meetings can be nauseating and confusing. But keep coming back...eventually you WILL BE returned to sanity and you WILL SEE the difference between Midtown and regular A.A.

I also empathize with how extremely painful and difficult it is to leave the only home group you've ever known, especially when other meetings aren't necessarily full of people who will be your instant friends or who will know where there are 5 fun things to do this weekend. But recovery is also about asking for help -- there isn't always going to be an onslaught of A.A.'ers reaching out to you. Sometimes we have to reach out ourselves, let people get to know us, open our mouths and share that we are in pain. We can help you. Life doesn't have to be full of fear. From working the Steps they way they are outlined in the Big Book, you CAN be released from fear.

Lastly, A.A. HAS NO RULES: You get to pick your sponsor; SHE is not assigned. Your sponsor should not share your 5th Step with ANYONE w/out your permission, period. You get to pick who you want to open your legs for (if anyone). You get to pick which meetings to go to! You get to decide who to trust and who not to! You get to decide which service position to take (hopefully at the gentle guidance of a sponsor who genuinely cares about your well being). You get to decide who to live with. You get to decide where to work. And yes, you can function and do things that feel right in your gut WITHOUT GUILT.

Real A.A. has no leaders, no hierarchy, and no dictators who preach how they think you should be working your program. I cannot stress this enough. Any guilt or shame inflicted upon you by other members of Midtown for ANYTHING you've done or said, or any questions you've raised about the group, no matter how small, is total B.S. and a way to control you with fear tactics and the threat of relapse. Come out of the darkness and into the Light! We are here for you in the Fellowship of the Spirit.

SO PLEASE JOIN US NEXT THURSDAY. We would love to meet you, and become part of your new, healthy, FUN network. Let us love you until you can love yourself again!

"This is really important stuff and Jane/DCC, WOW, what a team...your points are sooooo right on."

OMG, this is too funny. Bwa-ha-ha

Oh you are so right, no, no, you are even more right. Yes, yes, I know I know, I am right and you are right, and this blog is soooo helpful. Look what we have accomplished so far, so much more to do. So glad you're here, you are so right, did I already say that?

Midtown should be banned, everyone there is sex crazed, raping children (Mind you, there are only two people in that group under 16, one male/one female). They stole the treasury of waia, one of them highjacked a plane flew it to Mike Q's house, and then put a box of AA chips along with the entire WAIA and Midtown treasury inside the plane, then flew it to Cuba, stole Fidel Castro's (our hero) cigar AND his beard, and then gave it to the British Royal Family.

Then they gave cookies to everyone with sexually suggestive slogans like, "Have a Nice Day" "Keep Coming Back" "Live and Let Live"

Who do they think they're fooling with these cookies? I think we all know what "keep COMING back" means, disgusting they are to put the word 'coming' on a cookie. SEX freaks. "Have a Nice Day", we all know that is sexually suggestive and really is just code for "I think That You and Me Should Begin a Relationship That Includes Intercourse, By The Way, Nice Beret"

Do you see these concrete examples I'm giving here? If this isn't evidence, then what is?

A correction:

I think my post came across as stating that Step Sisters is the only healthy women's meeting in the area. True, of the ones I've been to in the area (I'd say about 20 or 30), it (is in my opinion only) the healthiest. But as was so lovingly pointed out to me just now, Step Sisters is not the ONLY healthy women's meeting in the DC area. Each person needs to discover what works for them. Sorry for tooting the Sisters horn!

I relate to you 'ha ha'. I attended Midtown one time. After the meeting one time, I was having a conversation with a male member there and we were talking about ex-presidents of the United States. I shared that my favorite president was Kennedy, and then he shared that his favorite president was Eisenhower.

Then later I thought, "Oh My God, Eisenhower is some kind of Midtown code". It really means Eisenhower late for the gang bang.

Damn, I'd been had! That was the last time I'd ever go there. On my way out someone asked me if I was okay and then said that, and I quote, "don't worry, it gets better, keep coming back".

Disgusting.

Does anyone really take seriously the notion that compelling newly sober girls to have sex will in any way help them stay sober? Seriously? Does this sound like some old charlatan gratifying himself while cloaking it beneath the banner of sobriety, Jesus Christ, take your pick. So long as the girls in question are not minors and the act therefore criminal, Michael Quinones and those who continue his methods may be sociopathic but still entitled to do as they please. But it is anathema to the program of AA found in the Big Book and everywhere else. They should call it something else.

From a friend:

Please join us at Language of the Heart. We meet Saturdays at 9am at St. John's Lutheran Church on Aspen Hill Road. Since I have been to both Step Sisters and LotH, I can safely say that LotH is another healthy women's meeting.

ha ha and Yup, I relate to you so much. I had a Midtown experience too. I was out of detox and went to one of their meetings. First thing that happened was someone greeted me at the door, AND it was a guy. He shook my hand and smiled at me. He smiled, what a freak! This guys standing there at the door shaking people's hands and smiling at them. Sex sex sex. So obvious. Then someone else walked in and he shook their hand too and he smiled at them TOO. He did this to everyone that wallked in the meeting. I called the police immediately but then realized that the number I'd been given for the cops was really the rejection hotline. So I got mad and hung up.

At the time, I had no place to live and I ended up having to crash at one of the Midtown members houses for a night. I slept on the couch at a house, and when I woke up the people that lived there started talking to me about sobriety and AA stuff. Then they gave me towel and told me I could take a shower. So I did. When I got out of the shower, they had prepared for me a hearty breakfast for me to eat. So I did. I ate the breakfast and it was good. Sex freaks. I was just waiting for the moment of truth here because I had heard all the rumors.

Then I realized that I was in the moment of truth already. THAT BREAKFAST HAD BEEN PREPARED REALLY FAST. No one, I mean no one does it that quick except for McDOnalds. So I looked around the room searching desparately for the Ronald McDonald clown to come popping out at any moment. He never did. THERE WAS NO CLOWN!

I started to freak out, my heart began racing rapidly and then I lost it. I bolted out the door and ran away as fast as I could and immediately called the police on this group for the second time. But the police did not answer. Instead I got the owner to local bakery, wrong number again. So I ordered some lemon blintzes to be picked up later that afternoon. I never went back to Midtown again.

I hope this story has helped some of you. :)

Soberindc stated "Lastly, A.A. HAS NO RULES: You get to pick your sponsor; SHE is not assigned"

A.A. has no rules? then right away they say WOMANS "ONLY" MEETING again separating the woman from the fellowship again under a good cause of course the sick judgments of another and the weak and weary follow. Your sponsor is not assigned? Are you tell me that sponsorship is not promoted in A.A.? Is an out right lie. New comers are tormented that if they don't get ONE they will get drunk and "YOU" are one of the tormentors, promoting a meeting that keep other genders out.
Do you really think you are you helping alcoholics? or are you trying just helping yourself?
A.A. is to carry the message to anyone anytime anywhere. What your actions are doing, is beyond any practical logic of help.

We don't pick your sponsor, but we will inseminate others to the end to get a sponsor.

Why all this sponsorship craze stuff? womans ONLY meeting? and on and on?
Why not JOIN A.A.? If one will read the simple 5th grade text Big Book, uninterrupted by others, on ones own. An A.A. fellowship will come, "Its in a vision for you in the Big Book" . Not this sponsorship crap having to administer the steps to someone already here and keeping out others already here.

The third TRADITION states "YOU ARE A MEMBER IF YOU SAY SO" "SIMPLY MEANING " YOU DON"T HAVE TO BE SPONSORED. WE ARE NOT ALLIED WITH AN INSTITUTION or INSTITUTIONAL WAYS
Bill W saw your sect types coming, that's why the Traditions were needed, but don't speak of them in the heavy sponsored meetings around, you will fell the group will not any couscous. The Outside sponsorship system is only spreading cancer and propaganda in A.A - Someone forgot that the help comes from one "THAT ONE" is God, not and the outside sponsor.
Trust in him "before" you clean house not in the proclaimed system that claims it. Opening you own eyes, and ask yourself for once, who have I really helped here, as if I was the one who even did. Sectioning others off from the fellowship of the whole to The sponsorship system is crazy.
Bill W say it clear we are not allied with any sect. Sponsorship and Stage meeting SECTtion others off from the whole.
IF YOU DON"T GOT IT - YOU WILL GET IT. Got It !!!

I feel sorry for people who use humor as a defense mechanism to evade the Truth. I guess it would be better if it were funny humor.

So because YOU had a good experience there, it's outside the realm of possiblity that someone else (many people, it seems) had a different experience?

And you find it appropriate to belittle women and girl's claims of sexual misconduct?

Nice.

Even if these women and girls are pathological liars who have fabricated this entire ruse, you still have a responsibility to conduct yourselves appropriately. Yet, the Midtown members/defenders here seem to be behaving in a way that is NOT in line with AA's principles. Odd.

How you get "midtown should be banned" from the posts here is beyond my comprehension. That's quite a straw man.

Again....how is Midtown dealing with this publicity situation?

And if you don't think they have a responsibility to deal with it, could you explain why.

Timewilltell: the women's meeting in Midtown consisted of meeting at Mike Q.'s house. Mike led the meeting and the newcomers sat on the floor. I'm sure Mike had lots of experience as a woman so he was the logical choice to lead the meeting each week. Since he's 6 feet under I guess there won't be anymore women's meetings at Midtown, so no wonder you are down on women's meetings. How can men have any control over their women if they're meeting only with each other? And you're right! There is no logical way anyone could get and stay sober by going to gender-specific meetings. Thank God you reminded us of this vital fact. By the way, either repeat High School Spelling or get off the crystal meth.

Actually I take back what I said. Your posts are actually quite funny. I take myself way too seriously. Sometimes I jsut get carried away with all these rumors and gossip. It seems that I will have alot to make amends for because of my postings on here. I am not all to smart when it comes to things I am emotional about. For that I apologize.

I agree with you again Jane D., I have behaved like an ass on here. I have been subscribing the old notion of 'contempt prior to investigation'. Something we alcoholics do alot. Obviously I am no exception, and I too take myself and my head way too seriously. I apologize for what I've said about this group. We don't really have the facts. Everything I've posted on here has been gossip and rumor.

Midtown member: Nice try posing as Jane D. Go get honest and do a group inventory instead of hiding behind humor and posing as others to avoid looking at yourself. Your sad attempts to protect your group from investigation and keep the secrets hidden from others or tossed aside as hearsay are not working. I personally know of many who have left your pathetic, controlling, unspiritual "AA" group in recent weeks because they are longing for real recovery. Maybe it's time you too woke up and smelled the revolution.

It does seem that you folks have a hard time with rules (feel free to check out the user agreement you consented to, which prohibits you from "posing" as another poster) and immoral behavior. Imagine that.

DING DONG THE WICKED WITCH IS DEAD!!

Haha, you think I'm in Midtown, this is too much fun. Do you ahve any idea how riduculous you are? Yeah, you wish I was in Midtown. Because then you don't ahve to face the possiblity that one of your peers thinks you are an ass.

This is so much fun. Too much fun screwing with people who take themselves so seriously.

BTW, GET A LIFE!

And in taday's news.....

Jane D finally comes clean, states "I take myself way too seriously. Sometimes I jsut get carried away with all these rumors and gossip. I am not all to smart when it comes to things I am emotional about. For that I apologize."

DCC not wanting to left hanging by her staunchest ally folds like a house of cards too, states:" I have behaved like an ass on here. Obviously I am no exception, and I too take myself and my head way too seriously. Everything I've posted on here has been gossip and rumor."

More will be revealed, stay tuned folks
(maybe one day I could write a gossip column for the post too)

"It does seem that you folks have a hard time with rules (feel free to check out the user agreement you consented to, which prohibits you from "posing" as another poster) and immoral behavior. Imagine that."

This was NOT my posting. My posting was above that. I was saying that I apologize for getting too carried away with myself and bashing this group without any cause. I can only encourage all of you to do the same. Midtown has never had a fair hearing and that is my stance.

Jane D., over and out.

The defenders here are burying themselves. Is easy to see that they no longer think for themselves, except to attack and ridicule real, serious allegations...talk about giving AA a bad name...Q (or his disciples) really worked their magic on you. As for the sponsorship nazi, you're just on the wrong blog. My guess is this blog debate could end up in the AA Archives of its history. Think about that.

Friend, you have heard of something called an "IP address?"

From the W. Post:

Additionally, entries that are unsigned or contain "signatures" by someone other than the actual author will be removed. Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site.

From another friend:

Other healthy, supportive women's groups that I have discovered include: the
Sunday women's groups at Del Ray at 10:30 (my favorite is the step meeting,
but the discussion meetings are also great), the Sunday 5:00 pm Potomac
Women's meeting at St. James Episcopal Church basement on 11815 Seven Locks
Road and the Saturday Cedar Lane Women at 4 pm located at the Cedar Lane
Unitarian Church.

As a woman who used to not like hanging around other women, I've been truly
blessed to develop friendships with women in these groups and discover a
healthier me. For those of you still searching, don't give up on the
miracle. You will find a group where you belong.

Blessings.

The Midtown people really know how to defend themselves well; half come accross as brainwashed attackers who offer nothing but rediculous assertions and the other half immature and foolish.

Even without the cult/pedo issues Midtown seem like a pretty unsavory bunch.

Enough with the bickering!!
The collective personality defects spewed here leaves me to speculate that a bunch of folks need to concentrate on keeping their own side of the street clean. If that 4th step isn't done yet, start by completing it.

I just think that we're all happy that Jane D and DCC have now come clean about what they've done on this blog. The bashing of Midtown based on a press article. The lies that they have told about this AA group when they themselves even admit that they've never been there. The boring reinterations of the same story over and over again.

Thanks Jane D and DCC for apologizing to the Midtown Group. It took a great deal of integrity to that guys. Kudos to you. Here's what they said:

"Actually I take back what I said. Your posts are actually quite funny. I take myself way too seriously. Sometimes I jsut get carried away with all these rumors and gossip. It seems that I will have alot to make amends for because of my postings on here. I am not all to smart when it comes to things I am emotional about. For that I apologize." - Jane D

"I agree with you again Jane D., I have behaved like an ass on here. I have been subscribing the old notion of 'contempt prior to investigation'. Something we alcoholics do alot. Obviously I am no exception, and I too take myself and my head way too seriously. I apologize for what I've said about this group. We don't really have the facts. Everything I've posted on here has been gossip and rumor." - DCC

To all those Jim Jonesian Midtowners you know what you have done; everyone dies eventually and you will have to meet you maker and be judged.

Scary thought isn't it.

Your feeble attempts to fool people into thinking you're Jane & DCC are what is REALLY funny.

Just because you keep re-pasting over and over again your fake comments from above isn't going to finally convince us that Jane & DCC regret one iota of their postings here. What are you, 12? Do you think we are actually that gullible?

Don't you think the time you are wasting proving to everyone your lack of maturity would be better spent by healing your group from within?

I think it's very interesting to hear people who have not been in AA in the DC area for any length of time defend Mike Q and his movement. I have been a sober member of AA in the DC area for over 25 years and have seen the wreckage of this group many, many times over the years. Here are two of my observations about this mess.
1)Mike Q/Midtown created a "special needs" group within AA. These kids are convinced they need special activities and entertainment since they are young. Alcohol doesn't care how old you are. If you know anything about alcoholics, you know we like to feel "unique"and will buy into anything that feeds out denial.To some extent AA is social but the organization's primary purpose is by no means to provide a social life for young people. And by the way, where are these "thousands" of young people that have been helped? I meet a few sober ones here and there but not the armies the defenders refer to.
2)Defending Mike Q is like defending a pedophile priest. They're both bound to do some good due to the organizations they affilated with, but that doesn't make them any less perverse. Almost makes it worse.

None of you are capable of having a real debate on this issue. Maybe perhaps the reason for all the Ad Hominem retorts (attacks) is because there is no other way to get through to you. It's like trying to argue with a medieval court system about why Jews should not be tortured for their faith or why someone is not a witch just because they weigh the same as a duck. Such is the case with the Midtown group. Truly a persecuted group on here.

Anytime anyone sticks up for Midtown on here, they are attacked as being a Midtowner themselves or supporting rape, stealing or other such crimes. Yet, never has there ever been a solid argument on the part of any of you. Not once. You say things like 'Midtown shall be taken out of the Where and When and the needs to be disbanded.' Then when asked about your extremely hasty and sweeping generalizations of this group, you deny that you say these things when what you said is only two or three posts above. Things like Midtown is all brainwashed. How? How are they brainwashed. Do you know all these people who are presently there? NO, YOU DON'T

What the f#%ck is your argument here? Huh? That Midtown are all rapists, are all brainwashed, that they steal money from people. Okay, fine, where is your friggin proof. You have none. 100's of girls raped and taken advantage of but all of the 100's are just too scared to come forward. Bullsh&%t.

Oh no, let me predict the next couple of postings that are to come.

1) Oh, there goes another Midtowner defending the leadership, obviously he is brainwashed because he is talking about things like proof, making a solid argument, using reason and pointing out our logical pitfalls.

2) There they go again pointing out flaws in our logic, must be another brianwashed Midtowner, defending rape, controlling people, asking us to defend our argument. Sexually perverted. Probably plotting a trip to the Junior High, huh, huh.

3)These Midtowners really know how to defend themselves by insulting us for calling their whole group a bunch of pediphiles when we don't know them. We have the right to bring this whole group down and anyone in it based on things that happened a decade ago and the testimony of people who are direlects themselves. After all, we're the 'real AA', blah, blah, blah.

You aren't capable of discussing this with anyone. It's like trying to argue with a crazy person. I'm gonna leave you now to suck on eachothers d*#cks, because that is all you do on here.

Bon Appetit :)

Citizen wrote: "I just think that we're all happy that Jane D and DCC have now come clean about what they've done on this blog. The bashing of Midtown based on a press article. The lies that they have told about this AA group when they themselves even admit that they've never been there."

I have been there. And I've said as much.

What lies are you referring to?

That there has been some very negative press about Midtown and AA? Scroll up. Grab a copy of Newseek. Check out the DC news websites for articles and video clips.

That women/girls in Midtown have male sponsors? I've heard and seen that first hand. Has that practice ended? Perhaps it has. Let's hope.

That there are some very, very serious allegations being made against Midtown and Mike Q? Again, scroll up or contact some of the local police and ask them about any allegations made.

I have made no claims regarding the truth of those allegations, b/c I have no way of knowing for sure. But, based on what I've experienced and heard DIRECTLY from Midtown members, I don't doubt the veracity of them.

It is my opinion, based on my experience and understanding of AA, that Midtown ought to address these issues--regardless of the truth of these allegations.

And it is also my opinion, that by not addressing them (and I have yet to hear that they are doing anything), that they continue to strenghten the case against them that they operate outside the principles and traditions of AA.

If you can show me where I've said something that you consider to be a lie, I'm happy to discuss it and will apologize if I'm wrong.

Well seems there is no shortage of news articles about detailing Midtowns 'antics'.

Surely, it must be a vast left-wing media conspiracy out to get them [/sarcasm].

Hmm:

However, none of those 'Antics' take place in the present, they all take place in the past. Moreoever, they seem to be the doings of 2 or 3 people, according to the articles, yet the entire Midtown group is cited for having done these "antics". None of the reporters ever checked out the group for themself, and they have admitted that. They're going entirely on heresay. Entirely.

So yes, that sounds like a conspiracy to me if there ever was one. Heresay, gossip, testimony from people with a history of crime themselves and a history of drug abuse drinking and lying does not factual story make.

Yeah, and everyone thought Hilary Clinton was a nut when she openly talked about the vast right-winged conspiracy that was out to get her husband. (Boy she really didn't know what she was talking about, did she) Speaking of article, who was it that went to the press in the first place? "Sober & Active" members of AA right? Does anyone think that Newsweek just stumbled upon this story, or it was feed to them. This wasn't a public controversy until someone decided to make it so. Thanks again for your apologies ladies.

See above post to Hmm. All of these stories take place in the past, according to the articles, and they are doings of 2 or 3 people, yet the entire group is responsible. How? Are you responsible for what someone did in one of the meetings you go to if it happened years ago? I think they answer you will give me is 'No". Yet, here we have 250+ people being persecuted for things they've never heard of and people they barely know.

Allegations against Mike Q are moot at this point. Mike Q has passed on. There's no discussion there anymore. It is futile to try to charge him with a crime now. He is not on earth anymore. Sorry to have to state the obvious but hey, look at these posts.

Allegations against Midtown are kinda moot too. The membership of Midtown has changed so much through the years that most of the people there weren't even around when all these 'happenings' happened. That's like trying to charge you with a crime that happened in your house before you bought it.

Women having male sponsors in Midtown. Well, are you sure about that? When was the last time you were there? And so what if they are. Sponsorhip by the same gender is a suggestion only. There is no AA Gestapo, although it sounds like you are trying to start one. This means to you that you now have to travel to every AA meeting in the area and make sure no one is breaking the same gender sponsor suggestion. It would only be fair to do that, right?

Midtown doesn't have to answer to anything that is not based on fact. Do you think movie stars defend themselves everytime the Inquirer prints a crazy story about them. No way. Also, you can't charge a group with a crime. Only a person. No people at Midtown, not even Mike Q has ever been charged with anything, period. Not in the 15+ years that they've kept a file on it. So these allegations have been quite fruitless through the years being that there's no crime going on there.

The point is is that in addition to Mike Q, Midtown and AA have been named publically with negative press.

I absolutely think we're responsible for that (regardless of the origin or the veracity), if we are self-identified members of either group. The prgram of AA suggests that we are responsible.

Our entire program is "suggestion."

If you, or your group, is disregarding those suggestions, and bringing negative attention to AA as a whole b/c of those departures, then how do you justify that?

If men sponsoring women were no big deal, perhaps the allegations brought against Mike and Midtown wouldn't be an issue, you know?

You don't see how that practice has played a part in negatively affecting AA?

How Joe Public reads these allegations about *AA* and starts to think that we have a system in place where sexual abuses are ripe for the picking?

Where sexual predators have an institutionalized system all set up for them should they decide to join our group and prey on young girls?

AA recommends same-sex sponsorship so that there can be NO CHANCE for these sorts of allegations or impropriety.

And honestly, if male members of Midtown were coupled with women of their own age, it wouldn't look so fishy, either.

I'm not interested in policing anyone--just in maintaining the integrity of our program and making sure that we remain a program of attraction. And if there is any suggestion that our members have participated in criminal acts in our name, then I am all for trying to flush out the truth in those cases.

Firstly, yes Mike Q and Midtown have been named negatively in the press. Midtown has been named as a whole, and wrongly so.
But like I said in my last post, it is all heresay and in the past. You're going to have to drop it. The allegations take place a long time ago, at least two years ago. No reporter ever checked out this group as it exists now, therefore no credible account of what this group is like today exists. And the particular people being named are responsible to defend themselves if they feel the need. Also, Midtown is not a club, there are no members that have the obligation to do anything except attend meetings, period. That is really bold of you to demand that an AA group defend itself against allegations that they know very little about. That they break their anonymity and submerge themselves into some crazy media fiasco. And as I recall, Midtown has defended itself to the press by writing them anonymous letters. You have no right to tell them that they have to break traditions and come out publicy in the press and comment on something that has very little to do with any of them. That's BS. This is AA, we don't do that. Your gonna have to drop that one, it makes no sense and is against everything that AA's traditions are about. The Traditions were designed to keep members out of a media fiasco such as this.

Your next point about Midtown affecting AA as a whole is not true either. I'll quote AA Member above: "who was it that went to the press in the first place? "Sober & Active" members of AA right? Does anyone think that Newsweek just stumbled upon this story, or it was fed to them. This wasn't a public controversy until someone decided to make it so." This is a fact pointed out by someone. Nobody investigated Midtown and then wrote a story. Former disgruntled members went to the press and fed them this story. The Concerned Friends Group hounded them until they would write the story. Because all of the stuff in the articles is only heresay, it is only proper to say that the Concerned Friends Group brought the negative attention to AA by having a report about PAST occurences in Midtown. No reporter ever did an independent investigation on this group at all. Your gonna have to drop that one too.

You said: "Where sexual predators have an institutionalized system all set up for them should they decide to join our group and prey on young girls?" Okay now, you are really taking a leap there once again. There exists no such thing in the Midtown group as far as we know, and that is total propaganda you just posted on here. You're esentially saying that women are forced into sex with men in this group. Do you really believe that? That's the only thing you could be saying because last time I checked sex between people of legal age is consensual, unless it is rape. Since there are no rape charges against anyone there, then you are in essence lying and disseminating propaganda on here. Aren't you? What do you call it? Aside from the allegations against Mike Q, which are moot now, you know nothing about the lives of the people who are there now. Nothing. But you're slinging dirt about them anyway.

Lastly, what does being coupled with people "your own age" mean? Are we now judging people's personal lives on here too. That's nobody's business. Women in the 20's have always dated guys in their 30's, there is nothing unusual about that. That's normal in American society. That's so common it's not even worth mentioning. You're gonna have to drop that one. We don't judge people's personal lives in AA.

This is why I say you have no argument and are really just spreading propaganda. You just keep taking these illogical leaps in your reasoning and it destroys peoples lives who have nothing to do with this war about past grudges. You need to leave them alone.

Listen all of you, my main point is, if this were a trial by Jury, you would lose hands down.

Because you are condemning a whole group whose membership is always changing about things that happened years ago. You cannot prove beyond a doubt that this is the way the group functions today. And the credibility of the accusers is so bad, you may not even want them to take the stand after all.

The groups leader has passed on. Go home and leave these people alone.

Nuff said.

Preying on newcomers is an issue. I was once privy to a young girl showing up at a meeting crying her eyes out. She was struggling to get off of heroin and hadn't touched it in weeks but was drinking to wean herself off. I saw her later taking a meeting into the county jail and she was telling me how a slip signing drug dealer followed her down the road after she left the meeting and gave her free heroin. He was pimping her out the next day.

The Persecution continues...

The Midtown Witch hunt goes on...

Pitchfork anyone?

Midtown need not go public with its inventory or amends.

No one needs to break their anonymity to start a process of self-examination and making amends.

The allegations are not just toward individuals--reread the articles.

And it matters not whether those allegations are rooted in truth, really. Or where they came from. Our program asks us to look at OUR part in our conflicts.

What matters is that Midtown (and if you choose to name your group that and you have trusted servants and self-identified members of that group--then that's "you") takes responsibility for the situation at hand.

You can get a Group Inventory form from NY, I'm sure.

I NEVER said this: "that women are forced into sex with men in this group."

I'm saying that many other people have publicly made that claim. And if Midtown does things which are clearly NOT suggested by AA, which gives those claims MORE merit than they would have, WERE Midtown following AA's suggestions, then that is a problem for which Midtown is directly responsible.

Many people feel that Midtown has harmed AA as a whole.

Who is Midtown to say we're wrong?

My 9th steps have never worked that way. I don't get to decide who is worthy of my amends. I don't presume to tell people who claim I've hurt them that they're full of it.

I'm just not clear how you can justify the rationalizations you and your defenders have set out here.

(High School Graduate), Quote "How can men have any control over their women if they're meeting only with each other?"
SICK THINKING -YOU SPEAK YOUR REALITY you must be a proclaimed sponsor believer in A.A. , what's crystal meth ? is that some type of glass ware.

Does the A.A preamble needs to be changed, to fit your sect type meetings?
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IS A FELLOWSHIP OF MEN AND WOMAN WHO SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH AND HOPE WITH EACH OTHER that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. IS NOT ALLIED WITH ANY SECT,(get it) denomination, politics, organization or INSTITUTION; does not wish to engage in any controversy; (But has to due to the sponsorship system)neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

The A.A.responsibility pledge will also need to be changed to accommodate all the new staff members.

RESPONSIBILITY PLEDGE
"WHENEVER ANYONE, ANYWHERE, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there.( Not some self proclaimed irresponsible individual labeled sponsor) And for that: I Am Responsible."

Not to mention the Traditions

This was all here before the outside system took over. Think, before you react.
The Book knows of your kind, thats why the Traditions were wrote.

Jane, Jane, Jane. Let it go "...does not wish to engage in any controversy" The word is ANY.

You are only fueling the fire. AA has been keeping people sober for years, decades. It works. Not perfectly, not everywhere, not for everyone. Get to a meeting and talk about this stuff there. You've made your point here.

Jerry - get a grip. You don't have the charisma that Mike ever had, and you never will. Be jealous all you want. People avoid meetings that they know you and Ana are at. Ana is annoying, whiny, and can't shut up. Oh, and folks - she's bulimic. Why don't you take up her eating disorder as a cause? What 20 year old that is 5'0 and 90 lbs at most goes and gets butt implants and liposuction? If you're her proud husband why does she wear jeans so tight that camel toes are showing?

I have been in Alanon for 15 yrs. My daughter got sober 6 yrs ago and unfortunately was in the Mictown Group until last summer. Initially I felt very grateful to the group for helping my daughter. I went to her celebrations and supported her sobriety. If you go to a Midtown meeting on Sunday to support your child, believe me, the upper tier are all aware that you are there. They put on a front that looks great. It would be hard for anyone not to think this group was wonderful. They all look great, they are polite, dressed well and exude happiness.
Have you ever heard the saying.."You can't judge a book by it's cover?" Certain things that I questioned from the beginning, I let them go thinking that I was being over-sensitive. Here are the list of the order of things that unfolded for my daughter and for me.

6 yrs. ago my daughter got sober and was in rehab when she met her sponsor. The woman told her that she was her sponsor and gave her a phone number to call her everyday.
My daughter did't call the 1st day but the girl called her instead and immediatly started lecturing her about calling and going to any lengths.
My daughter was afraid that she would get in trouble in rehab if she didn't do what this girl told her so she started calling her everyday.
She got out of rehab and was immediatly bombarded with new friends.
Every bit of her time was accounted for and only in AA meetings or doing service work. (Keep in mind that I stayed out of her recovery and did not question her about it)It came time for her to re-inroll in college and she informed me that she couldn't do it because it would interfere with her sobriety. I let it go and figured I would re-visit her education in December.
A few little things occured that were red flags but I was willing to ignore them because after all she was sober. Initially here are the things that I questioned but let go of: My daughter made a very early ammends to me and my husband about her using behavior. She appeared very sincere and convinced us that she was on a new path and wanted to do anything she could to make ammends. We(my husband and I ) said, "Well, you have caused us a lot of harm and we accept your ammends but we want you to do 2 things: We want you to pay us back the $10,000 you cost us for attorneys fees and stolen goods from our house. We don't want you to pay us all at once just a little bit each month. She agreed to pay us $100 a month because she was working at Starbucks and didn't make that much money. We agreed. Then we said,"We want you to finish your college education and we will pay for that." She assured us that if she didn't start back in January she promised to start again in the fall. During our meeting I forgot to mention that she had her then boyfriend with her during our meeting. My daughter was 20 he was at least 35. 6 months after our meeting my daughter came to us and said she wanted to talk to us. We met again. This time she had her boyfriend and another 30-something woman with her. I will not reveal any names. She told my huband and I that she had to make sobriety 1st in her life and that going back to school could cause her to relapse. We questioned her about not making the $100/month payments and she said that she needed to contribute to the group and continue her service to AA. Again my husband and I discussed it and just chalked it off as "Thank God she isn't using drugs anymore." We continued to help her out financially and support her recovery but we both started feeling that she was taking advantage of us. We confronted her about it(again she always had another prson from the group with her)Get this! She told us that our behavior was toxic to her sobriety! She said that if we wanted to help her we should support her in all of her decisions..After all "I'm sober, I'm not that other person." Again we fell for it for fear we would lose her. I can honestly tell you we gave her a lot of money. Now I know where it was going. She went to Costa Rica twice..my husband and I haven't had a vacation together on 4 yrs. She had a beach house..my husband and I go to the beach occasionally for a long weekend. Her then boyfriend?..Well he left her for a 16y/o girl that had 4 days of sobriety. He left her with herpes..and told her that if she continued to focus on the herpes that she would drink..he told her that she was ungrateful and that she wouldn't even be sober if she hadn't met him..he told her to go help someone else and get off the pity-pot. Thankfully she didn't drink..She stuck in the group for another year and finally realized that her life was going on a downward spiral. She shared with me a talk that she had with Mike Q. She said that at the time he made her feel better but now she realizes what his motives were. She said that he told her that the reason that she isn't happy is because she is letting her feelings control her. He told her and I quote "You are letting something so small as herpes cause a resentment? Look at me I have cancer. You better get some gratitude or you will drimk. Be grateful for your experiences with #$%* he kept you sober. She left the meeting with him thinking she was crazy. Finally a year ago she and I had a long talk and she told me everything..The service work..mowing the lawn, cleaning the house,organizing his closets,changing his sheets,buying groceries,cooking,serving him his plate etc. The financials: $1000for the beach house, $500 for materials for the New Year's play..$100 here and there for various dinners and activities. The Sex: Sponsor told her that if she continued to be closed-minded about sex that she would never get sober. Sponsor told her that if she had a Dic* in her mouth that she wouldn't be able to drink. Sponsor told her that alcohol has made her sexually depressed and that she should take a hard look at that. Sponsor told her that her parents were sicker than she was and that they were her "Family of Chance." Midtown was her new "Family of Choice." She did a thorough 5th step with her sponsor and her sponsor told her if she wanted to be totally sober and spiritually sound that she would share it with others (MIKE Q) so that she would experience "Full Disclosure." Unfortunately, she did. She said she wanted to feel totally accepted in the group. After that, my daughter started feeling that she was going against everything she was taught by her parents. She said that she started feeling dirty, dishonest and cruel. She decided to leave the group..change her cell phone..never deal again with them. I hooked her up with my friend #*&$ who has 18 yrs in the program. I am blessed..My daughtr is sober and just celebrated 6yrs. She has returned to college at Georgetown and is free of this cult..she is not completely free of the guilt she has about the sexual abuse but we all know that everyone can be healed. I am so grateful for Marc Fisher and any media that continues to reveal the truths about this corruptive group.

Hello my AA friends!

I just got home from work today (8:30, a little late for a Friday. Too late to go to my home group tonight :-( but I'll make up for it.)

Meanwhile, I see that while the cat's away the mice will play.

I was wondering how long it would take for the Midtown Clowns to figure out they could put anyone's handle in the "name" field of a post, that there was no password for signing on. I'm surprised that it took this long, frankly. After all, they have a lot of experience in masquerading as concerned AA members and sponsors, don't they? Why shouldn't they naturally pose as someone else on a blog?

It's gratifing that most people have figured out this tactic. As far as I'm concerned, it simply illustrates the kind of dishonest people we have been talking about here. People without integrity. People who think that anyone intelligent would mistake their juvenile scribbling for the writing of concerned AA members who want to stop the sexual predators of Midtown, who want a ZERO TOLERANCE for sexual predators in AA.

Let's see, people without understanding of why we need zero tolerance for sex predators? People without honesty? People without integrity? In other words, people WITHOUT SOBRIETY.

Honesty is the very foundation of our program, according to our Big Book; only those without it fail. Respect and caring for the dignity of others is the heart of our AA society. At least that's my view, after 22 years of sobriety in our program. Or, in the words one of my best friends in the program always says when he shares, "our blessed program".

We should all remember that our program depends on individual honesty and respect for each other, even when we vehemently disagree with each other. Our sobriety depends on it. Our lives depend on it.

I'll now take a look at what else has been going on here...

Dear Alanon Mom, you just told my story "almost" verbatum (without the 8 weeks of involuntary hospitalization for depression). I've never talked to another Midtown parent about my story. I knew I wasn't alone but reading your story was in some way healing to me. Thank you, thank you for sharing it.

A place inseminated with sponsors, lots of sick self proclaimed labels, YOURRRRRR sponsor. DO YOU HAVE ONE YET, after you
are already in A.A,? THATS LUNACHRST If one still needs "one" in A.A. after a few days they should see a few physicists.

To the moms: I am so sorry for your ordeals. They sound very similar to what I've heard through the grapevine, and 100% plausible given what I know about Midtown first-hand.

With these sorts of experiences being recounted, we AAs are supposed to "live and let live?"

Accept "Didn't happen when I was there," as acceptable responses from Midtown members/defenders?

If *whispers* that that sort of stuff happened at ANY point in my home group, and I knew that there had never been an effort to right it or investigate it or distance ourselves from those responsible, I would find another group.

Because that's not AA.

We don't hide, we don't lie, we don't minimize, we don't deflect blame.

We are not afraid of critical self-examination.

We make amends when others tell us we've harmed them.

If we aren't sure where we've done that harm, we ask others to help us discern our part.

It's just such a pattern of living outside the principles with this group.

And normally, I think we'd let them be wrong.

But this is an unprecedented situation involving minors. And I just don't think we can afford that any longer.

Dear Renee/Shawn/shawnblog/onegoodlookinthemirror/doitsober.com/Easy/thefallofmidtownliars/timparsons1&2@gmail.com and any other false names you've hid behind to harass people - You are one unscrupulous, pathetic, immoral and sad human with no ethics or conscious to continuously name and slanderously defame innocent indivduals. You must be a shining example for the Midtown Group.

Moms, your stories are very moving. I think that in simply posting them you will feel some relief and recovery. I strongly encourage you to post in this blog everything that comes up as these memories and feelings come flooding back. Despite all the back and forth here, the stories of those hurt are the mst authentic posts here. We can all learn from you, and we should never forget you.

Also, I'd encourage your children to post in the same way. Not to sensationalize but to help recover. Let it all hang out. Also to show people what's happened. These stories touch people in a way that all the arguments can never do. Thank you!

Yes, Renee is Swawn. Look up Fall Of Midtown on Myspace if you want further details on who he is and the Cult that he so desperately defends. Do you want to know the worst part? If he were sitting amoung a group of them, as they huddled together for a false sense of co-dependent security, you wouldn't be able to pick him out of that herd. He is well established with the Midtown Cult. If you needed a fair example of what type or degree of sobriety/spirituality that you could expect from becoming dependent on the Midtown Cult, Shawn's(Renee) as good example as most any of them. If that's what you want, then I will not stop you. On a personal note, what he did in his last two postings is typical of how the Midtown Cult, as a whole, attempts to discredit those who stand against them. Good luck to you, if that's what you want to become.

I am not Shawn, Sean however u spell it. I hope Sean does sue you for publishing his name on a blog spot stating that was him. No one but a complete idiot would do what you did. You did the same thing with Iris, and I hope she sues you for defamation of character.

Do you even have a clue what libel is? Defamation of character is?

How do you folks follow this idiot?

Sorry folks, the WP does not suddenly IP trace someone and give it to common folk, and nothing was traced to Seven Locks Road. I live in Rockville, Maryland.

You speak foolish talk, Jerry. You are absolutely no different than Mike - how old is Ana and how old are you? What the hell is a man almost 40 interested in a 22 year old?

Think it's kind of like "you spot it, you got it."

Typing away feverishly on your keyboard is not going to change the world or AA. This situation with the Q Group and/or Midtown has been going on for years and NOW you're demanding retribution? Get over yourselves.

signed,
a nonMidtown member/defender

nonMidtown, your statement is incorrect and also disproves itself.

AA members and others are demanding zero tolerance for sexual predators and an end to the other damaging, controlling practices at Midtown, all as aided by its cultlike organizational behavior.

"Typing away at the keyboard" by Marc Fisher is what brought these these practices to light to the general population, that beyond Midtown and its immediate environs. Midtown is not the center of the Universe and its disgraceful behavior was not generally known. So yes, NOW we are requiring Midtown to act within the law and, if it wishes to call itself an AA group, to act as one.

This debate has gone on in this forum for weeks, and now you are just getting involved?

I posted on the other article, and I just want to say a word about warning people:

After I left that group, I made the discovery that I had met (and in some cases knew quite well) MANY people who knew all about that group. People who knew me, knew that I was in it, knew what it was, and SAID NOTHING.

Actually, there was ONE guy--a complete stranger--who worked the concession counter at the Westside Club, who told me that he'd heard a lot of bad things about that group. He encouraged me to stick around for a little while until the next meeting because he knew there would be women there who had a long time in sobriety and were trustworthy. He couldn't get me to stay, but he just kept saying, "Stick with the women, stick with the women."

Total stranger. The only one who ever said jack s***.

So I asked all of these other people that I knew who were in A.A. that said nothing at the time WHY they didn't try to warn me, and they ALL had some cop-out about how they knew I would eventually get tired of the "shenanigans" and move on...about how everyone eventually leaves...about living and letting live. Whatever. All COP-OUTS.

And who the hell refers to psychological manipulation as "shenanigans"?! A**holes, that's who.

As I posted on the other thread, Victor B., who is STILL well-respected around A.A. in the D.C. area, actually SHOWED UP to the group conscience where we were kicked out and defended the group's right to run itself as it saw fit. And I saw that jackass every Wednesday night when I tried going to a certain other large meeting in the D.C. area.

I can absolutely tell you without reservation that the WALL OF SILENCE about that group--in the larger A.A. community in this area--is the biggest indictment of the community that there could be.

I still have a hard time comprehending how it was possible that so many people--so MANY people--who could have warned me actually CHOSE NOT TO GET INVOLVED, even by going only so far as to SAY SOMETHING ONE TIME to me.

Consequently, when I did leave, I believed for a long time that I was completely alone and that no one would understand what had happened. I continued to be ashamed of my involvement in that group, and that sense of shame and lonliness kept me away from A.A. for a long time. I just can't understand how there could have been so many people in my life that knew and said nothing.

Is that what we're supposed to become in sobriety?

A CANCER CALLED MIDTOWN

Yes, Page 449, you are correct, AA does not wish to engage in any controversy. Perhaps that is why AA members who knew of the disgraceful activities at a cancer on AA that calls itself Midtown did nothing for fear of causing a controversy, tacitly agreeing with the false Midtown argument that anyone exposing the disgraces of Midtown to thus stop them would be the one causing the controversy. Perhaps that's why Midtown has been able to harm people and destroy lives for so long.

We say that AA as a fellowship has "no position on outside issues" and thus its name should never be drawn into public controversy.

But AA members who speak out are speaking for themselves and are not expressing a position on outside issues.

They are protecting and upholding the good name and reputation of AA, protecting the victims of Midtown sexual predation and economic exploitation -- those who go to what they believe is AA for help -- and preventing more such victims from being created.

Midtown cleverly twists and perverts AA beliefs and traditions to its benefit, trading on the good name and reputation of AA, deceitfully appearing to be AA from the outside, while working its sexual abuse and economic exploitation against (mostly) young people and their families on the inside, not caring who is hurt just as long as the "leadership hierarchy" continues to benefit.

Now that the national media has exposed Midtown, its members use every dishonest tactic to try and protect themselves, and to keep themselves secret as best they can, because secrecy is the friend of abusers. Abusers are terrified of exposure, because they cannot flourish in the light. Abusers can only flourish in the dark.

And now that Midtown is being exposed, it is panicking. It throws up every dishonest defense it can against AA and its members, those, like Jane D., who wish to end the reign of abuse. One way is to accuse AA and its members of ignoring AA traditions and guidelines.

Midtown now accuses those AA members who, speaking for themselves alone, wish to end sexual abuse perpetrated by an outside group posing AA as drawing AA's name into controversy! By speaking up we are "breaking anonymity"! We are breaking the tradition that each group should be independent! (Whoops, "except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole") And so on.

Clever. Clever and outrageous. Clever and intentionally deceitful.

Because by this argument AA and its members can do nothing. Nothing to prevent sexual predators from attracting victims under the good name of AA, of perpetrating their abuse under the good name of AA, of economically exploiting them under the good name of AA, and of pressuring them to drop their medication, their medical treatment, their family relationships and connections, all under good name of AA.

This outlaw group posing as AA tells newcomers that sex with their sponsor and buying their sponsors gifts, even vacations, is "selfless", that sex with their sponsor teaches them "spirituality", and that performing free housecleaning and yardwork for their sponsors is "service work". It even tells teenaged girls, according to the mother who wrote above about her daughter's Midtown experience, that a woman with a penis in her mouth isn't putting a drink into her mouth. (And remember, girl, you must go to any lengths to stay sober!)

Then it has the shameless audacity to say that AA members are drawing the name of AA into public controversy when they speak out!

Often we say to other members, "remember, you may be the only 'Big Book' that a practicing alcoholic may every see". That means that we should act in a manner that exemplifies AA principles and traditions, that shows our program and its principles for what it is.

If we are concerned that each individual member be a good example of the AA program, are we not concerned that an outside outlaw group operating in our name, one that perverts virtually every one of our traditions, twists virtually all our advice and sayings, acts dishonestly and deceitfully in virtually all things, has been written up in the national media, is being investigated by law enforcement, and is destroying lives -- again, in OUR GOOD NAME -- is being allowed to operate unchallenged by AA as a whole and by most of our members?

Midtown is not AA. Midtown is not even remotely AA. Midtown is step zero. Midtown is a cancer on AA. We should have the wisdom to know the difference. And we should now do what is right.

The Cult Called A.A.

When we think of cults, we usually think of bizarre religious sects, armed compounds, mind control and eccentric leaders. Most of us do not think of Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.) as a cult, but I do.

Three years ago, I was in the grips of a serious drinking problem. Like most alcoholics, I rationalized my drinking, citing the many terrible circumstances in my life. Then, almost three years ago, I stopped drinking. Period. By myself.

Oh, I attended a half dozen or so A.A. meetings at the time, upon the advice of someone recommended by a friend. The woman who suggested A.A. to me was a licensed psychologist. She was a "recovered alcoholic" and was very active in A.A.

What I found at the meetings was a weird mixture of the deplorable and the laughable. It didn"t take long to notice that something was not quite level with this organization.

I was tipped off to A.A.'s strong cult qualities when the lady psychologist made a somewhat curious remark during the first week or two of my sobriety.

I had an uncle then (he died this past January) who had been an alcoholic prior to 1960. Uncle Ralph consumed, by his own subsequent admission, about a quart of whiskey a day. He stopped drinking without the assistance of A.A. when he met my aunt. It was a condition of their marriage that he stop drinking, and he did.

I remember my Uncle Ralph as a sweet, generous man during the thirty-odd years he was married to my aunt. He was not abusive or cruel, he worked hard, and made an excellent stepfather to my three girl cousins. When I mentioned Uncle Ralph to the lady psychologist, stating that he'd quit drinking on his own, she immediately dismissed my observation with, "Oh, well, he's just a dry drunk." She of course had never met my uncle Ralph, knew positively nothing about his character and yet claimed to be able to diagnose him as a "dry drunk" strictly on the information that he hadn't progressed through the A.A.'s widely touted "twelve step program." Bear in mind, this was a licensed psychologist making an incredibly spurious, rash judgment.

Of course, all cults have this in common: they reject and label as untouchables any who do not embrace their particular version of "Truth." To died-in-the-wool communists, non-believers are "bootlickers of the capitalists," or "counter-revolutionary hooligans." To the born again fundamentalist Christian, non-believers are "agents of Satan." To Moslems, Christians are "devils," and to Nazis, Jews are "swine." To the Alcoholics Anonymous membership, anyone who stops drinking without chanting the mantras of cult founder Bill W. are "dry drunks," pure and simple. You don't even need to know anything more about the self-quitters -- the fact that they quit drinking without A.A. makes them dry drunks, a priori.

Don't get me wrong. I do not advocate suppressing A.A. or any other cult. I simply want you to know, in case you are a problem drinker and are toying around with the idea of quitting, that it's O.K. to develop your own solution to your own problem. The last thing you need when you undertake a major, radical transformation in your life is to be accused by a bunch of self-righteous fanatics of being "a dry drunk," whatever the hell that is.

The whole A.A. program hinges upon the alcoholic's acceptance of what A.A. calls a "higher power." Conversely, adherents to the twelve-step program are expected to renounce any personal responsibility for, or control over, their problem. This blatant renunciation of the concept of free will is also a characteristic of every single other cult I can think of -- the individual counts for nothing, while the non-existent, the illusory, the hypothetical, is all. Self-respecting, proud, analytical achievers do not make good cult members. A cult follower must be stripped of his sense of individual worth -- in many sects, he is humiliated sexually, deprived of sensory stimuli, sequestered from the larger community, or otherwise manipulated to look upon himself as degraded and worthless. In A.A., you are plopped in a ring of cultists every evening and pressured to place your entire destiny in the hands of some "higher power."

When I began to ask hard questions about the nature of this "higher power," half expecting to hear some gibberish about "god," I learned (no kidding!) that one member even had his motorcycle represent his "higher power." What form of silliness is this that empowers motorcycles to cure us of alcoholism, I wondered.

At A.A. meetings, everyone sits around in a big circle. There are readings from "the Big Book," a not-very-well-written compendium of home-spun philosophy and anecdote authored by Bill W. and his colleagues some decades ago. Every cult needs its sacred writings, its revealed word. Members start talking about themselves and their alcoholism, and oddly, this sounds more like "self-criticism" under Mao's cultural revolution than anything therapeutic. In fact, it's all directed toward precisely the same end as "confession" in the Catholic church and Maoist "self-criticism" -- de-emphasis of the individual and a concomitant glorification of the ethereal, the other-worldly, the imaginary.

At some point, if you begin to question this "program" of A.A.'s, the talk gets tough and they start to lean on you. You are told that you can never recover on your own, that you are doomed to lapse over and over again into drinking binges, or at best, become a "dry drunk." (This is supposedly someone who has stopped drinking but still manifests all the unconscionable traits of a drunk: all the sociopathy, all the abusiveness, all the manipulative behaviors.)

The more you try to trot out examples of persons who have transformed their own lives under their own steam, the more the party line is thrown back at you: you are powerless against drink. Powerless. Any so-called examples of alcoholics who quit drinking without the twelve steps are in reality only examples of "dry drunks."

When I left A.A., I made the comment to someone that if I were indeed "powerless," I might as well commit suicide, because a life without any control over my destiny would be pointless and absurd. I stated again my conviction that I did not regard myself as powerless, and I went about my recovery in the most sensible way I could imagine. I removed alcohol from my home, I found some healthy pastimes to pursue (mountain climbing, writing, and painting) and, in the whirlwind breakup of my marriage, I devoted myself to staying afloat financially, making my new company prosper, and seeking out some like-minded companionship -- that was when I re-joined Mensa.

So, if you are determined to quit drinking, you can save yourself about three hundred sixty-five hours a year, plus travel time.

Try the "one-step" program, instead: just stop drinking. Believe me: you can do it.

I did.

To AA is nothing but a cult,

I have written a lot in the last day here and I don't want to be repetitious (though as far as Midtown goes I do to restate my positions, I'll grant you). But I was interested in your post.

Your description does not fit AA very well as a whole. As a member with 22 years sobriety, I'm glad you stopped drinking on your own 3 years ago and haven't resumed, as I took your post. If you felt alcohol was a problem for you, it's wonderful you were able to do this.

Each AA group is independent of the others (unless their conduct harms AA) and there is a huge diversity of styles, opinions, and beliefs.

At many groups, everyone does indeed sit around a circle, as that does facilitate face to face communication without any hierarchy implied. But not at all. At a small minority of groups, members read "Big Book" passages and discuss them in relation to their situations and lives. I haven't been to a meeting like that in many years but they exist.

At most groups I've been to, most members have a belief in God, and even more in a "Higher Power". However, I am an agnostic, everyone knows it, and a number of fellow members in my group are similarly agnostics. No one has ever questioned my beliefs nor has anyone ever "leaned" on me to change them or pressured me to do anything whatsoever.

One statement I've never heard anyone say in my 22 years is that anyone who stops drinking on his own is a "dry drunk". I can't generalize that to say no one has ever said it but in my experience this would be a very rare belief. Obviously, your psychologist was stating a extreme belief without evidence and, inappropriately. You make the point that she was licensed - is that material to AA? Because AA has nothing to do with licensing anyone for anything.

You stated that AA members are "expected to renounce any personal responsibility for, or control over, their problem. This blatant renunciation of the concept of free will is also a characteristic of every single other cult I can think of -- the individual counts for nothing".

In this I can tell you you are absolutely incorrect. The belief you describe is alien and contrary to the stated beliefs of our program. In AA, the individual is paramount, individual free choices made by the individual are everything, and taking responsibility for our drinking, admitting our past behavior, and making amends for any any harm we've caused are the virtual cornerstones of our program. It's regrettable if anyone at any meeting said otherwise.

As far as my recovery, for the past fifteen years I've averaged around 17 meetings a year of an hour each. This amount varies year by year at my discretion. I can listen to my friends tell me in detail their feelings and about their lives, or anything else they wish to talk about about, and I can speak about myself and speak my mind for five minutes or so without interruption, criticism, or fear of disapproval. After the meeting we are all friends.

It's regrettable you were introduced to AA through an incompetent psychologist who steered you to a meeting of dull fundamentalists and extremists. However, if you are describing your experience when you say one is "stripped of his sense of individual worth -- in many sects, he is humiliated sexually, deprived of sensory stimuli, sequestered from the larger community, or otherwise manipulated to look upon himself as degraded and worthless. In A.A., you are plopped in a ring of cultists every evening and pressured to place your entire destiny in the hands of some 'higher power'", then you are describing an outlaw cult group like Midtown that was posing as an AA group.

(RE: The Cult Called A.A.)

Bill W is Turing over in his grave. A.A.'s Big book was not written for any cult purposes
Powerless over alcohol is understood, but all your other "TRUE" and clear statements comes directly
from the "SPONSORSHIP SYSTEM" as they self proclaimed themselves as the interpreters of the Big Book.

The Sponsorship system does in fact state all those statements you made, The Big book may elude to
a drunk having a hard time as dry but not using it to manipulate anyone, "The Sponsorship System does."

The Traditions of A.A. "CONDEMMS THE SPONSORSHIP SYSTEM "IN" A.A."
Tradition One and Two ; Not making anyone conform or believe or in anything , Not to organize. Which
Systems do. As the Traditions go on and on the system takes them out of context to promote themselves
In A.A. while an earlier Tradition states if you cant follow the Traditions in order DON'T CALL YOURSELF AN A.A GROUP
that's long before there tactics tiring to use them as no outside controversy after the "FACT"

I have been a member coming up on 3 decades and seen the simple suggested program get turned into a program of suggestion as a direct result
of the sponsorship system that was used at "onetime" outside of A.A. to introduce people "TO "A.A not used to renegade people "IN" A.A. after a person was sober.

I understand the pity that is here, I hope one day the word sponsor will not posses the "power it has" which is clearly the lack of humility and get back to a fellowship instead of their follow-ship crap that the professional world promotes from the outside into A.A.
Thanks for sharing of this sad experience
There is nothing wrong with something falling down, but there is something wrong with "ONE" not being able to pick "THEMSELVES" back up,

A.A. by itself tells no one not to believe " IN" anything. The second step states came to believe "THAT" a power Greater than yourself could and would "THAT ONE IS GOD" may you find him know. "The Book Not me folks."
There are many substitutions for faith there is no substitution for God. Not the sponsorship system as someone's H.P

We will all have to see what comes out in the upcoming court hearing in Montgomery County, MD when Jack, Bridgette, Carol, Jon,Joni, and various others defend Tammy. That should be a circus!

Most 'guru' types - are completely clueless about the traditions and steps as evident here.

Mike Q. I knew very well. He, like many many people in AA, come in and get off alcohol and turn to other vices. Many have not much of a past, and it is easy for them to change. Others, have long long pasts and it is very hard for them to become completely honest with themselves and others. I know Mike struggled with this, and he turned to other substances.

I am not defending Mike, but I know many posting here and you all need to focus on yourselves and not him. He is dead now.

Many of you do not understand the book. I have heard many hear in meetings - talking about doing their 4th step "AGAIN" and one person here is running a workshop about this, and is leading people astray with his lack of knowledge.

The steps were meant to go through once and that is it. Not continually. Step 10 is what you do to continue to take personal inventory. There's no need for a sponsor after step 12, and no where in the big book does it even talk about this.

Steps were done within days, all 12, and not weeks, months, or years. They weren't something you went back to either. Today's AA is not what Bill Wilson had in mind at all.

Beth you hit the nail on the head. If Fisher knew the truth of some of the folks he's interviewed, he'd cringe.

"J" got sober at 15 - after spending 2 months drinking. Please, tell me what he has to contribute to AA?
"A" is a rich brat, a child of a doctor and a lawyer. I guess sleepign with Mike Q screwed her up so much she has to advertise her **ssy all the time with skin tight jeans. Girl has even had a butt job, liposuction, and a boob job now and she's only 22.

What alcoholics you all are!! Paragraph after paragraph after paragraph of blither that doesn't do a thing. Arguing with a faceless audience and hearing silent applause. Do you really think you're helping anyone ... except yourself???

I dare you to go to Q's funeral next week and make your case at the service. Show your contempt and make a stand for AA. Walk away from the veil of your computer and let me see you!!! I dare you ...

ok to (blank) when is this Montgomery County court date circus? date and time?
and to "beth" I really dont think you knew Mike Q that well - vices? are you kidding me? he cried sobriety, mentaly, spritualy, and so on. Are you saying changing a vice is ok in the spritual work of aa? Who are you kidding? one vice for another is NOT sobriety. that would be a reaching for justification of trading on addiction for another wouldnt you agree?
so AA can be considered "institutional co-dependency"? trading one addiction for another? then take the lesser of 2 evils? Its is ok to have sex with young vulnerable girls ( a vice) but not ok to take perscribed meds? come on? still think Mike Q/midtown is/was spirtual? Sad but a streatch, but I bet Midtown/Mike Q thought antibiotics werent so good either? So long as the sponsor was in control I bet it was ok?

AA is to help people become active whole members of society- if that cant be accomplished thru AA and basic priciples and COMON SENSE, then there are OTHER issues that need be addressed.

Just because you have a sober drunk does not mean you have a good person, whole person, SAIN person, or spritual person. That is just the point that Marc Fisher and Nick Summers were trying to make to the public. Just because they are Sober does not make them sain, whole , honest, productive people. Just means you have dishonest, distructive, manipulative people running under some disguise of spritual guru's that are just as sick or more sick then the Catholic preist petophile.
just because they are sober does not make it ok to beat the crap out of some one emotionaly or physicaly? Does It?? from what I KNOW, I KNOW , that is exactly what had occured during Mike Q's life.

This was NOT a sain man, a spritual man nor a good man, many are following his footsteps from what I have read and heard, that is sad if not terifying. If you beleive Mike was a spirtual man a man of God, then you too are headed for a great disapointment.

to alanon Mom,
THANK YOU! I wish I could talk to you and give you the huge hug! and your daughter too! She will and can recover from her exposure to MQ and MT! many have in the past and many will going forward! Thank you for your honesty, thank your daughter for her courage to tell you the truth and bring to light the sickness. 20 some years this has been goin on, she is one of hundreds exploited and you are a mom of the hundreds - so thank you!

with gratitude!

No Midtown. No peace.

Know Midtown. Know peace.

Well, we have seen everything from the Midtowners, and we are still seeing the (one presumes) untrue personal attacks on those opposing them, which even if they were all true would not refute these charges one bit.

Now the complaint from Midtown seems to be that this discourse is not effective. That it accomplishes nothing.

OK, Midtowners, if this is true you might as well drop out of this blog now as you have nothing to fear and can continue your predation unabated.

Of course you are wrong. There are a endless sayings about the power of the truth, the power of the written word, and the power of an idea whose time has come. History shows them to be true.

Every literate person knows this. As for Midtown, perhaps the appropriate quote is from Ben Franklin: "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."

"Of course you are wrong."
You're right, DCC.
Now shut the $#&! up.

Get off the soapbox wrote: "I dare you to go to Q's funeral next week and make your case at the service. Show your contempt and make a stand for AA. Walk away from the veil of your computer and let me see you!!! I dare you ..."

Why on earth would you think that showing contempt at someone's FUNERAL would "make a stand for AA?"

That would be a disgusting and inappropriate act.

This is one of the few forums that seem to exist to discuss this matter.

And I think this is an EXTREMELY important conversation to have, given the severity of the allegations, and there is NO reason why it couldn't remain civil and rooted in the principles of AA (well....there is one big reason, isn't there?).

That Midtown members/defenders are unwilling and/or unable to open themselves to what is being said is one more red flag in a long line of red flags.

That not one person has said, "We're listening. We disagree strongly that these allegations are true, but we are willing to have the dialogue and hear your concerns," is a very strange thing for a group of "AAs." Very, very strange. And telling.

The defaming, insulting, and degrading posts speak volumes.

In that regard, I think this "blither" [sic] has been quite helpful, actually.

True colors.

I went to Midtown when I had about 3 yrs of sobriety, against the advice of most of my friends and sponsor. My thoughts were "Midtown really can't be as bad as people say it is". I left after 1.5 yrs and was very fortunate. I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE ACTUALLY MIDTOWN MEMBERS DENYING THE ALLEGATIONS- I have nothing to gain by responding except for getting the TRUTH out. ANYONE who has been in Midtown for any amount of time knows the truth about what goes on in there :
1-MEN SPONSOR WOMEN, MEN TELL THEIR "PIGEONS" THAT IT IS A "SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE TO SLEEP WITH THEIR SPONSORS". - THAT IS A FACT
2-MIKE Q HAS ONLY DATED WOMEN UNDER THE AGE OF 20 FOR AT LEAST THE PAST 10 YRS- THAT IS A FACT.
3-UNDERAGE SEX HAPPENS ALL OF THE TIME IN MIDTOWN. IF IT IS "CONSENSUAL" AS MEMBERS OF MIDTOWN CLAIM, IT IS ONLY BECAUSE YOU ALL HAVE CONVINCED THESE NAIVE WOMEN WHO SEEK RECOVERY THAT IT IS "OK". I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT ONE WOMAN HAD HER FIRST SEXUAL EXPERIENCE WITH AN OLDER MEMBER IN THE GROUP THAT THE MEN "ELECTED"- THAT IS A FACT. ANOTHER FACT IS THAT HER MOTHER ACTUALLY GOES TO MIDTOWN AND DIDN'T PROTECT HER OWN DAUGHTER THEN OR NOW- THAT IS PATHETIC!!! I GUESS THAT IS BECAUSE HER MOM IS SPONSORED BY MIKE Q AND PAYS FOR HIS "LIFESTYLE" INCLUDING TRIPS, ETC...
4-MIDTOWN DOES NOT HAVE ANY PAMPHLETS IN ANY OF THEIR MEETINGS REGARDING AA AND SPONSORSHIP OR AA AND MEDICATION- THAT IS A FACT- DOES "JORGE" CARE TO COMMENT ON THAT??????????????
5- ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY WORKS IN THE MENTAL HEALTH FIELD KNOWS THAT WHAT HAPPENS IN MIDTOWN IS NOT TRUE AA- OR THERE WOULD NOT BE SUCH CONTROVERSY ABOUT MIDTOWN/Q GROUP.MIDTOWN DOES SAY THAT PEOPLE CANNOT TAKE MEDICATION BECAUSE THEY ARE "NOT TRULY SOBER". MIDTOWN ALSO TELLS THEIR NEW MEMBERS TO GO OFF THEIR MEDS COLD-TURKEY- RESULTING IN MANY MEMBERS BECOMING SUICIDAL. IT IS A KNOWN FACT THAT MANY INDIVIDUALS WHO LEFT MIDTOWN HAD TO BE HOSPITALIZED IN ORDER TO SAVE THEIR LIVES DUE TO WITHDRAWAL FROM THEIR MEDS. IT IS ALSO A FACT THAT MIDTOWN SAYS THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DEPRESSION. MIDTOWN CLAIMS THAT IT IS JUST "SELF-CENTERED ALCOHOLISM" MIDTOWN DOES NOT ALLOW THEIR MEMBERS TO SEEK OUTSIDE HELP- UM,,, HAVE ANY OF THE MIDTOWN MEMBERS EVER READ THE BIG BOOK??? BACK IN 1939 IT WAS DOCUMENTED IN THE BIG BOOK THAT AAs should seek outside help... um, since when does Midtown get to change the Big Book to meet their needs- especially on pg 69- or have they not read that page either???- I bet anyone in Midtown will come up with some lame rebuttal to this too. HEY JORGE- DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE DSM IS- i BET NOT. DO ANY OF YOU IN MIDTOWN KNOW WHAT THE DSM IS??? NO, BECAUSE NONE OF YOU ARE PSYCHIATRISTS, CLINICIANS, OR SUBSTANCE ABUSE COUNSELORS- SO WHY IN THE WORLD DO YOU THINK YOU SHOULD EVER GIVE ADVICE ABOUT MEDICATION, THERAPY, OR ANYTHING RELATED TO ALCOHOLISM OR DEPRESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
6- Midtown has a true heirarchy and Mike Q is the "leader"- real AA does not have any heirarchy. Midtown calls their going to other meetings "outreach". Um, let's be truthful and call it what it is "recruiting for the cult". By the way, notice how NONE of midtowns go by themselves to other meetings- that is because it is "sponsor directed" that noone can go alone to other meetings as they " might get the wrong message from other meetings".
7- I could go on and on and on about the BS that goes on in midtown- I feel really sorry for people like "jorge" who have been convinced by Midtown/ Mike Q that these "Allegations" are "just not true"...
How about if we all go to court and testify about this??? Let's see who the judge and jury would believe- certainly not Mike Q- a mental challenged x vietnam vet- or the sane Millions and Millions of AAs with real sobriety and true morals.
8- I FIND IT AMAZING THAT MIDTOWN HAS THE BALLS TO TELL ANYONE THAT HAS LEFT OR IS PLANNING ON LEAVING THAT THEY "WILL NOT STAY SOBER" IF THEY LEAVE- IF THAT IS NOT WHAT A CULT DOES, LET'S LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF A CULT.
I DO NOT SEE ANY OTHER MEETINGS/GROUPS BEING INVESTIGATED IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA OR STATE OF MARYLAND OTHER THAN MIDTOWN- I WONDER WHY THAT IS???
9- I WAS TOLD THAT I COULD ONLY DATE IN THE GROUP BY MANY MIDTOWNERS, SPONSOR INCLUDED- HMM, SOUNDS LIKE A CULT
10- FEEL FREE TO CHALLENGE ME ON MY WRITINGS- I CAN GIVE YOU NAMES OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED AND EVEN DIED FROM BEING IN MIDTOWN----- AND THOSE WHO DIRECTED ME TO DO THE ABOVE.
MIDTOWN IS NOT TRUE AA- IF IT WAS, IT WOULD NOT BE UNDERGOING INVESTIGATION BY MANY OUTSIDE AGENCIES...
MIDTOWN IS THE ONLY AA GROUP THAT TELLS ITS MEMBERS HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIVES- INCLUDING WHERE TO LIVE, HOW TO DATE, WHO TO DATE, NOT TO GO TO THERAPY, NOT TO TAKE MEDICATION, WHO WILL BE YOUR "ASSIGNED SPONSOR" WHO WILL PICK YOU UP AND DROP YOU OFF FOR MEETINGS, WHERE TO WORK, TO CUT YOU OFF FROM YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS NOT IN MIDTOWN.
I WISH I COULD SAY I HAD A POSITIVE EXPERIENCE IN MIDTOWN, BUT THE WHOLE TRUTH IS THAT MIDTOWN/ Q GROUP IS A CULT AND LIE ABOUT WHAT GOES ON IN THERE.
TRUE RECOVERY IS ABOUT LEARNING TO LIVE LIFE ON LIFE'S TERMS, NOT AVOID LIFE BY BEING A MEMBER OF A CULT.
I WAS FORTUNATE THAT I DID NOT GET SOBER IN AA AND MANAGED TO STAY SOBER WHILE IN MIDTOWN.
THE TERM FOR "RECOVERY" IN MIDTOWN IS " DRY", NOT SOBER.
IF MIDTOWN HAD REAL RECOVERY, THEY WOULD GIVE SUGGESTIONS, NOT DIRECTIONS, NOT CALL THEIR SPONSEES "PIGEONS" AND ACT LIKE REAL SOBER MEMBERS IN RECOVERY.
MILLIONS OF RECOVERING ALCOHOLICS ARE SOBER, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT GO TO MIDTOWN.
THOSE DEFENDING MIDTOWN ARE ONE OF THE TWO: PEOPLE WHO HAVE MOVED TO THE AREA AND JUST PULLED INTO MIDTOWN DUE TO THE APPEAL OF A SO-CALLED SOCIAL LIFE OR INDIVIDUALS WHO GOT SOBER IN MIDTOWN AND HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED ANY OTHER RECOVERY----- THOSE ARE THE FACTS...
ANOTHER FACT: THERE IS NOTHING,ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SPIRITUAL GOING ON IN MIDTOWN.
MIKE Q LEADS THE "WOMEN'S MEETINGS" FOR MIDTOWN AT HIS HOME- DID I MISS SOMETHING OR DID MIKE Q HAVE A SEX CHANGE???- THAT IS A FACT.
---- THESE ARE TRUE FACTS ABOUT MIDTOWN--- IF NEEDED, I WOULD GLADLY TESTIFY UNDER OATH, BECAUSE I AM A TRUE SOBER MEMBER OF AA- AND AN EX MEMBER OF MIDTOWN- THE " Q GROUP CULT"

Posted by: ex-midtowner/ real sobriety/true to AA | July 26, 2007 06:46 PM

White Flag,

If you don't like what I write, the solution is simple. don't read it.

I suppose a lot of people are tired of hearing members of AA write against the sexual predation and economic exploitation of Midtown. One reason I do this repeatedly is that repeatedly Midtown members get on here and deny, deny, deny that this abuse is happening. If people hear only the BIG LIE FROM MIDTOWN members that no abuse is occurring, they may start to believe it.

I believe that the truth cannot be allowed to be drowned out. So I won't shut up. And obviously, the others who feel the abuse must stop aren't going to shut up either. And I don't think the media and national TV investigation will stop either. So how long will this go on? Until the truth has prevailed once and for all.

I hope J & A file a lawsuit against Shawn/Renee. You've got a great defamation case here. I think CFG has a lawyer referal willing to help...you should check with them.

Jane D.,

Yes, these guys are beyond belief, aren't they? Their tactic is to provoke disruption at a *funeral* in the hope that those who oppose their sexual predation will somehow be discredited.

They don't realize that decent people would never disrupt a solemn religious service or add to the pain of a family in grief. They don't realize these things because they have no comprehension of how decent people think, and no empathy for those suffering and in pain.

That's why they can take people desperate to end their drinking or addiction and use that fact to have sex with them, to treat them only as objects for their own gratification.

But we know that the truth will prevail.

How low can you go, Midtown? Or, perhaps, the better question is how long can you live in this falsehood and this denial?

DCC said "They don't realize these things because they have no comprehension of how decent people think, and no empathy for those suffering and in pain."

That pretty much says it all. I never could understand how people could get away with this stuff for so long. How so many people could be hurt and hospitialized by members of such a large group. Usually someone in a crowd will have a conscious and try to stop it, but listen to them. You're right, they have no empathy, there's no sanity to it at all. If they were completely innocent, there should be some level of concern and interest in these allegations, some empathy for those harmed, something. We see NONE of that here by anyone, not even the slightest hint of concern that people have been hurt by this group.

Its almost surreal, like we're in a very bad "dream." Where not one of them cares what has happenend to those spilling their guts and telling their experience. They just write them off, attack them, defame them, or dare them to cause a scene at a funeral. How could that sound like a good idea to ANYONE?

The Sponsorship system bulldozes their ways around A.A.

NO SPONSORSHIP SYSTEM NO PROBLEM, where you have differences you will have trouble.

SOLUTION:
BAND THE SPONSORSHIP SYSTEM FROM THE A.A. FELLOWSHIP, use A.A. AS A WHOLE to Learn to Be true to thy self.

The above sounds drastic but what is even more stupid and craze is one not being able to utilize A.A. and it's fellowship as a whole. Why keep secrets?

you people are whacked.

Midtown AA is not going anywhere Midtown will continue to grow and save lives as it did mine because I will "push it on"

Disband the once meaningful sponsorship system thats purpose was lost and used to drop off a drunk DRUNK in A.A.,and now organized and promoting "their glory" on A.A's spirit.

These people are beyond whacked, promoting self proclaimed personal live saving technics on others.

"A.A. WITHIN ITSELF" works great, the S.S. has screwed it up. Proclaiming the S.S. knows the answers.
A newcomer may be the sick - The injected self proclaimed S.S. is by far the sickest.
All "one" has to do is read the Book. OMG

You're free to do that, obviously. But don't be surprised to find that your group is not granted the autonomy it once was, based on the violation of the Fourth Tradition.

If you truly have nothing to hide or anything that needs "realigning" with the principles of AA, then surely that should be no problem, right?

A lot of people come in A.A. looks like only a few actually come to.

To Jane D., DCC, and Another Mom:

Midtown DID show up at my friend's funeral and used her as an example of what happens to people who leave the group.

There WERE a group of us on the inside--a very large group--who stood up to the hierarchy because of what went on there, and we were VOTED OUT of the group. We CONTINUED to show up to Midtown meetings to demonstrate to others there that you didn't have to be in Mike's sponsorship family to stay sober, and we were ganged up on quite viciously.

NO ONE would call on us during meetings. We weren't allowed to share. We were shared AT. In fact--entire hour-long meetings were dedicated to sharing AT US, by one member after another. We were turned on by friends and boyfriends. We were told that we were toxic and that we would drink. Rumors were spread about us. We went from having "over 100 close personal friends" to having only each other...and our numbers fell off after one person and then another and another defected back into the group because they couldn't take what was being done to them for breaking ranks.

Trust me. It's not like no one ever tried standing up to them from the inside. We did. We did. And for what? To be able to say that, although we lost so much, at least we fought?

My friend lost her only boyfriend of 5 years. She lost her sponsees. She lost her best friend. My friend relapsed. She was diabetic. It killed her. She was 21.

Midtown rolled in to her funeral en masse and filled the pews. A girl who had NEVER MET my friend came up to HER MOTHER and told her that my friend's death "really helped her a lot."

These people drove her over the edge and wouldn't even let us grieve for her in peace.

They suggest that people make a stand at Mike's funeral because that is the kind of people THEY are.

Jane D
Thanks for being here.
The point I am
trying to make is that it is not who is RIGHT or who is WRONG, it's about who is left when it comes to alcoholism.

I am concern for the people who are RIGHT and sadden for the WRONG doings, Probably would be very pissed off if it personally happen to me but it happen to US, this happening came through as a direct result the S.S. thinking they are right, and now into A.A. itself. The victims and now already here were just looking for help from A.A. why con them into believing in people again? the sponsorship System.
Why not let them ask?
Ask what about the Big Book not ones personal life.
Instead newcomers are trained to follow another in the S.S.
A.A. simply says come JOIN US.
How can one JOIN something if one is FOLLOWING?
A.A is a simple suggested program the S.S.is the only thing that complicates it more than it really is, a program of suggestions.
Live and let Live for it's only but for the grace of God there go I, surly not some self proclaimed outside sponsor system.

Midtown will not go anywhere. They will continue to meet and represent themselves as "A.A. Groups", even if they have to do so secretly, which they had been doing in certain locations, and they will continue to feed off of the life force of our fellowship. It's that simple. It's who they are and it's what they do. To expect the entire Midtown Group to suddenly behave differently, for any reason (which would include Mike's death) would be, by A.A.'s working definition of insanity, insane. There are too many established and maintained Midtown beliefs and behaviors that are enforced by too many sponsorship tiers and their lineages, for the group, as a whole, to change course and head into a positive direction.

I know that there are good people within Midtown. I have met them personally, but they too are conditioned, or they too would have left the group themselves. I'm sorry, but it's my belief that this is true. How could one remain within a social group that is widely known above all other groups as controlling, manipulative, dominating, predatory, isolated, and feared and not be conditioned to remain in that specific social group? As much as most there would like to say that "Midtown keeps them sober", the basic truth is that they have been conditioned to believe that if they were to leave the group, that one single group, their lives (as they only know it) would cease to exist and they would drink and to drink is to die. By a variety of known methods, every Midtown Group member is conditioned to believe, in no uncertain way, that if he or she leaves the Midtown group, that he or she will die. No other real A.A. home group, that I am aware of, even remotely suggests this.

Those that fight the conditioning are usually pushed to the sidelines, where they get to watch those that are allowing their conditioning to develop reap their "rewards", while they themselves, do not. For most newly sober alcoholics who are, through their own defects of character, quite thirsty for sex, status and security, this viewing can be unnerving. The end result is that this newly sober person will (usually), at best, try a few other A.A. meetings, but that Newcomer will not be so feverishly or "richly" rewarded for becoming a group member, nor will that Newcomers thirst be quenched with an abundance of sex, security and status, so invariably, the weaker Newcomer will go back to the Midtown Group and accept his or her process of assimilation with the Midtown collective.

Ok. That's obviously one view point concerning a limited aspect, of this ever growing problem. What are some solutions to this ever growing problem? When a working and developing problem is presented or accepted, a working and developing solution needs to be presented, accepted and implemented. For those who are not following me just yet, I'm talking about a series of individual and Home Group responsibilities that all of us, as A.A. members, can be fulfilling, in order to truly help our Newcomers, strengthen and realign our fellowship and surpass this gross misrepresentation of A.A (in the DC area) through practicing A.A.'s principles of Honesty, Open-mindedness and Willingness, while engaging in activities that are ultimately based in love and service.

XQ, I am so sorry for your loss and the treatment you received from what should have been your support network. Keep speaking your truth and know that your HP has a wonderful plan for you!

Timewilltell, I've read your post(s?) and I'm sorry to say that I can't really address what you've said, b/c I'm having difficulty understanding. But please don't let my lack of understanding keep you from speaking whatever truth you need to--surely someone is benefitting from your unique insight. Bless you, my friend!

Yes, Renee is Shawn. A current Midtown Group member told my wife and me (in public) that he saw him create the profile at the retreat, of which we were all on. This person was not led or manipulated into giving us Shawn's name. He offered Shawn's name and what he saw him do, on his own accord. The person who discovered the exact residential address of the person who created the "midtown poster child site" is an AA member that is currently in Military Intelligence. He has connections that I cannot speak of, with those who run Myspace. Look up Love and Service and CFG on Myspace if you want further details of the group that Shawn so desperately defends.

Do you want to know the worst part? If Shawn were sitting among a group of them, as they huddled together for a false sense of co-dependent security, you wouldn't be able to pick him out. He is established within the Midtown Group, which isn't difficult. All that is required is an accumulated period of dry time between drinking spells and that their dependence on the group is confirmed. Even still, it still hasn't helped him to intimately connect with a female, in a group where it's almost impossible not to get laid (or catch an STD). Maybe that's why he appears to concentrate on couples, as has been observed?

If you needed a fair example of what type or degree of sobriety/spirituality that you could expect from becoming dependent on the Midtown Group, Shawn's (Renee's) as good example as any. If that's what you want, then I will not stop you. What he has continued to do on Myspace and on the Washington Post threads are typical of how the Midtown Group -as-a-whole- attempts to discredit those who stand against them or get in the way of their feeding ground. The best thing that he has done for those who wanted to expose and/or know more about what the Midtown Group does to its members, is create that profile. Good luck to you, if that's what you want to become. They will help you become as such.

The CFG has suggested that I have a solid defamation case and they have offered a referral for a lawyer who is willing to help bring this typical Midtown Group member to justice. Clearly, I'm legally pursuing this matter. What freaks like Shawn do in private, can never hold weight or water within a court of law. Never.

How anyone who is as cognitively, ethically, and morally underdeveloped as Shawn is, can (somehow) function in society, I will never know; nor can I understand why anyone would consciously choose to relate to, or emulate him in any way. All I do know is that he thrives on this new found attention (as most untreated alcoholics do), even if it does make the group that he is dependent on, look like a cluster of sociopaths. It's the most recognition that he's received in his life and he will not stop, so long as he can feed off it, just like his group -as-a-whole- feeds off of A.A.'s Newcomers in Maryland, DC, Virginia and their ever growing and consuming satellite Q. Group contingent in Tampa, Florida. Yes... I wrote Tampa, Florida.

Why has this attack been so personal? Why wouldn't it be? As I have previously stated, this is what Midtown does to discredit those who thwart their ability to meet their ends, by any and all means. In the last year, I have (in their eyes) thwarted their ability to function as efficiently, by:

1. I have been of service by organizing and implementing several 12 step workshops. In these 12 step workshops, we usually guide around 35 - 40 people through all of A.A.'s 12 steps, in a simplistic workshop format. Two of these workshops have been conducted at the Kolmac Clinic in Gaithersburg Maryland; the same Clinic that spoke out against the Midtown Group in Newsweek. The results have been astounding. Kolmac has asked me to bring this workshop to their Gaithersburg facility, three times a year. Can you imagine what that would mean for their outreach machine? Who in their right mind, would join the Midtown Group, after working all12 steps and are beginning to establish a working conscious contact with the Higher Power of their growing understanding? Few indeed, for the Midtown Group influences our Newcomers to pursue their desires for sex, status and security at any and all means and their character defects are well compensated for their continued efforts. The Big Book refers to our defects as "Blocks". How can anyone establish a conscious contact with the Higher Power of their growing understanding, while building the blocks (character defects) that prevent the sunlight of the spirit from entering our lives? You can't. What the group does -as-a-whole- is take away or prohibit these Newcomers from receiving this much needed sunlight, thereby enabling the Newcomer to become and remain dependent on the group for what substance it will offer to them.

2. I sponsor, at any given two month period, upwards of 8 or more males. During these two months, we engage in the 12 steps (hopefully) at least two full times, while continually being of service in ways that our Higher Power will guide us to be of service. After which, I suggest that they connect with another sponsor and cycle through the 12 steps again, so that they can discover another perspective on the steps and how to work with others. At no time do the males that I work with know of each other, or how many other people I am working with at that time. I do this for two reasons. 1. People idolize other people way to damn easily around here and 2. Proportionately speaking, the more that we, as sponsors, allow the people that we are working with to become dependent on us for guidance, that much do they NOT invest on depending on their Higher Power for guidance, through Prayer and Meditation. Invariably, after a period of time, the sponsors become, to an extent, the higher powers of those that they are working with. Also, and just as important, these sponsors that have allowed themselves to be depended upon as the higher power of these Newcomers, invariable find themselves and their ethics compromised by this dependence. In truth, many of these sponsors become just as dependent on the Newcomers, as the Newcomers are on them. Many Midtown members have been informed, and are aware of this. In truth, I have informed many of them of this and many have seen this for themselves, but nothing has changed. What I have endeavored to practice as a sponsor, is as close to our literature as possible. It's also directly opposite of what midtown teaches.

3. I was voted in as a WAIA Executive Committee Board Member, during the last election. In truth, all but one midtown member was voted off and replaced with new, fresh, diverse service members. Midtown members, who previously owned and controlled the Board, did everything that they could to prevent free thinking and diverse A.A. members from participating in that vote and they failed. What I have seen, in regards to their continued attempts to control WAIA (while being of service on the Board) has been frustrating, to say the least. They are assuming as many WAIA Intergroup Rep Positions as possible, so that when the next vote comes in December, they will overwhelm the vote and put all midtown members on the board again.

Also, in the last year, I have personally picked up 3 separate (now EX) Midtown group members, who were forced out of their Midtown group Home. On each occasion, they were told to be out of the house that they were strongly motivated to move into, before the day was up. If anyone knew of how many Half Way Houses that they have moved Newcomers out of (on a minutes notice), people around here would be appalled. So there they are with bags in hand and not a soul from their Midtown Group willing to help them in any way. To see them standing there is shocking. In order to know what I'm talking about, you have to be there and look into their eyes as they finally discover just how misled, used and discarded they just were. It's a mixture of shock, disbelief, and fear every single time, and all they have to do is speak out, like I'm doing right now They get slammed like I am, publicly, so that the ones that witness it will stay in line and continue to feed the Midtown Machine. I'm assuming that Midtown wishes that others see how my wife and I have been slandered, so these others will sit back in silence and let them continue to feed off of the Newcomers that we, as A.A. Members, are responsible for protecting.

How then, should we treat these Midtown Group members, when we see them at a real A.A. meeting, say at the Del Ray Club, where I saw a large group of them last night? Personally, I did not treat them -as-a-whole- or individually, with any disrespect. I did not reach out to any of them either, as I usually do at WAIA, for a few of them (not just Shawn) have caused me to be extremely weary of them; however, if one of them had reached out to me, I would have been there, even if it was Shawn. Why is this attitude important? Because they need to know that we are there for anyone, anywhere, that reaches out for help. It doesn't say, "unless their from Midtown". It says, "when anyone, anywhere".

Here's a case in point, as to why this behavior is so important: Yesterday, a good man that recently exited the Midtown Group suggested to the person that he is sponsoring, to call me because he cared for the person that he was working the steps with, but could not physically be there with him on a shaky Saturday night. The male that he is working with called me and I was there, as I should have been. I invited him to a celebration dinner for a young woman who was now 5 years sober, then to the Del Ray Club for her celebration, and he came to both of them. There had to be 20-30 young people at the dinner party and we all helped him to feel welcome, because that's what we are here for. The beautiful part about it was that when the sponsor was a current Midtown member, I'm almost certain that the sponsor was motivated to distrust and avoid me, but as an A.A. member, he took a chance and my Higher Power and I didn't let either of them down.

They need to know that no matter what, if they take a chance, we'll be there for them and guide them through the process of recovery, as suggested in the Big Book + 12 and 12 and not solely by what's dictated by our Home Group.

Thank you, One voice, for sharing your experience, strength and hope. You have certainly enlightened my thinking and shown how infiltrating this group is. I not only thank you for that, but for being a part of the solution. The Midtown's control over the WAIA Board is disturbing to say the least. It pains me to think if L and C have been perpetuating their control or are victims of it as well.

Sorry, am not Sean, and I did not realize the extent you lied J. You are not even an alcoholic nor is A - just lonely people who are socially inept. No one at A's high school remembers her drinking, and what's ur story - u drank two weeks and you profess to understand alcoholism? Neither of you know what a struggle is, what it is like to sleep on a park bench, sleep with someone for booze, or wake up with the shakes.

We do not profess anyone alcoholic, however you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest bar and try some controlled drinking..try it more than once. It may cause you a case of the jitters.

Do you see how every time Renee/Shawn denies his real identity, he misspells his name on purpose? Apparantly you think being alcoholic is a popularity contest..."you are not even alcoholic..." then you going about defining what it takes to be one and assuming your struggle is different which makes you more of an alcoholic than someone else. You must consider yourself "unique" in some way. In my home group, we are clear that we can not diagnose others, only ourselves. I think you have probably helped alot of viewers here understand just how sick the current members of Midtown are, so you done us quite a service. Thanks, Shawn.

For those who think Midtown has not affected AA as a whole, check out the Wikipedia entry on AA--under "Criticism and Controversy" and then under "Occasions of Abuse at Meetings."

Seems pretty obvious to me....but, I'd be interested to hear other's takes on it.

XO, read your experience. Whats happening there is much identical here in California that it scares me, Not as much yet exposed but same shut out technics indicating something is going on and wrong.

When the language of the heart is shut out, the A.A. life line dies and most go elsewhere.

These so called A.A. groups have one thing in common, They are large.

I saw that too. Ever see a midtowner without another midtowner at an AA meeting? Me neither.

Its everyday now that L & S is getting emails from Midtown members looking to get out.

Now that the sociopath is dead the group is going to slowing fade away, its going to take some time but its inevitable now.

Have been away today but several points seem important to me here.

1) The WAIA seems key here. Every group should be represented because Midtown appears trying to pack the group and vote themselves into power in December. Yuk, how bad does that sound?

2) Midtown voted to expel members from its group? What does that even mean? How can an AA group expel anyone? "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking". People at meetings are consistently ignored when they wish to share? People direct comments at those they disagree with during meetings? Despite everything we've heard, these appear to be additional egregious violations of our traditions.

3) Midtown members attended a former member's funeral and directed nasty comments at the deceased's MOTHER? Is this possible?

4) There are members posting repeatedly about the "sponsorship system" whom I don't understand. I think they are saying that Midtown sponsorship is authoritarian and perverted, and that leads to these abuses. But Midtown has perverted everything else about our program as well. I don't see sponsorship as intrinsically evil, although being powerful, it might have more potential for that.

5) Cultlike controlling behavior seems the hallmark of Midtown and, potentially, other groups that have been alluded to here.

It seems to me we have covered a lot of abuses of Midtown over the last few weeks. We have also gotten a lot of information about the techniques of abuse and control used by the Midtown members.

I think we should try and figure out what strategies are available, beyond simply publicizing and discussing the abuses here, to curtail this abusive and cultlike group. Others have already presented a lot of ideas. I'm going to try and go back thru here and list them. Some other things appear obvious but it's getting a little late so...there's always tomorrow.

Jane D
Let's see if this point cannot become clearer. Hoping it will be discovered rather than disclosed.

A point is the Twelfth Tradition and many other traditions as well, the Twelfth tradition shares with us 12X12 pg 187 " These experiences taught us that anonymity is real humility at work." ( The label sponsor voids all this) " It is an all-pervading spiritual quality which today keynotes A.A. life everywhere." (Maybe in the fellowship before sponsorship took over) " Moved by the spirit of anonymity, we try to give up our natural desires for "PERSONAL DISTINCTION" as A.A. members both "AMONG FELLOW ALCOHOLICS" and before general public." (The whole sponsorship system around A.A. is about distinction. Me and My sponsor or My sponsor and Me if you don't have one ect). "As we lay aside these very "HUMAN ASPIRATIONS", we believe that "EACH" of us takes part in the weaving of a protective mantel which covers our whole Society and under which we may grow and work in unity."

The outside label "SPONSOR OR SPONSORSHIP" IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIG BOOK FOR THIS REASON.

"ANYONE USING THE "LABEL SPONSOR" CREATES A DISTINCTION BETWEEN ANOTHER ALCOHOLIC. "

The Traditions is clear and why the outside sponsorship system can be the downfall of A.A.'s fellowship. In one aspect, anyone using the label that creates distinction from another here in A.A. is on the Mike Q path to a certain point.

Solution: Courage to change, looking to the Traditions

It seems to me that Timewilltell is advocating that the entire program of AA needs to stop sponsorship. Although we can agree that, where Midtown is concerned, abuses "in the name of sponsorship" have occurred. I think your platform is a bit broad for this forum. The purpose of this dialog is to discuss solutions for dealing with Midtown's cancer on the DC AA community. You seem to be suggesting that the solution is for the entire program of AA to change by ending sponsorship. I don't mean to discount your suggestion here, but I feel that any solution for this local problem which requires an entire worldwide fellowship to change is bitting off a bit more than we can chew for this discussion. And your time might be better spent on joining a discussion addressing a solution for this local cancer. If your posts are not calling for the end of the "sponsorship system" as you call it for the entire worldwide fellowship, but you are trying to fit into this local situation, please clarify your point. Otherwise, I think we get it.

So, Mike died, and there is the possibility that the group will fizzle or transform or fade...or just change into Jack or Arno's group(s), provided they can pull it off.

Even if it does end, though, we all know it shouldn't have gone on this long. We all know there isn't anything to keep it from happening again. As someone on this thread just posted, and as several posted on the thread for the last article, there are groups like this all over the country. I know from personal experience that Mike used the Pacific Group in California as a model--had us all listen to tapes of Clancy and Johnny, invited others from there to lead workshops and retreats for us, and courted (or got Midtown members to court) that group heavily to speak at smaller local conferences. Why? Because they were a good template to learn from. Because they are also large and so many are dedicated to sponsor-worship (and leader-worship...i.e. Clancy). There are plenty of people in that group who turn their sponsees into an army of personal servants. There may be lots more people there who would never do such a thing, but then--how is a newcomer to tell them apart, especially when the predatory sponsors in that group appear so happy and successful (and unopposed)?

So...what do we do about this? There are too many people successfully using A.A. for seriously shady purposes. I encounter people ALL THE TIME (including on these threads) who keep asking, "If you don't like their meetings, why don't you just go to other meetings?"

To that I say: read the post, towards the end, from One Voice above. Newcomers were coaxed out of half-way houses and into a group living situation with Midtowners. They fail to toe the line, they get evicted with no notice. These are NEWLY SOBER PEOPLE. These are not well-to-do, well-connected people with lots of options. Do you know what it's like to be embraced by a group when you had just about lost all hope? Do you know what it's like to be turned on by that same group for disagreeing with them? I do. I was just barely old enough and financially stable enough to be able to find a place of my own when I got kicked out of the group--and I had time to find a new place because, unlike the newcomers that One Voice mentioned, I had a lease with my name on it. The girls without all those options ended up back in the group (and then denounced the rest of us defectors publicly--claiming that we were all toxic, had lied to them to get them to turn on the group--very McCarthy-esque).

This whole program is one that aims to give hope to people who don't have any. What a cruel trick to get those people to trust again and to have it turn out to be a predatory group that they have trusted.

Why doesn't the General Service Office in New York start putting out a pamphlet--AT LEAST--about predatory practices and how to avoid them? Why not put the information on their website (like they put other pamphlets in PDF format) for people to look up even if they don't find it at the meetings they attend? At least they would acknowledge the problem and attempt to help their own f-ing members.

What we have all been talking about here, without really coming out and saying it, is that A.A.'s name is used by con artists to gain credibility for themselves, and World Service knows it--and SAYS NOTHING.

They ought to use some of that money our groups send them to stand up for the A.A. name and help protect their own members.

It's LONG PAST time for them to stop being silent on this matter.

To clarify the point it would take the Traditions in of Alcoholics Anonymous while keeping an open mind on this label that has been injected "into" A.A as a whole.

I agree with the poster above [blank] re. the sponsorship discussion. Interesting, for sure, but maybe not best suited to this platform.

Anyway, I'm curious to hear what Midtown members/defenders have to say about the counselors and professionals who have been quoted in the media discounting Midtown's behavior.

If ex-members speaking out are "liars," "jealous," and of "questionable character," then what is the excuse for professional therapists and counselors who are speaking out?

I sincerely hope that people can consider how outrageous and far-fetched the excuses and rationalizations Midtown members/defenders are making against their critics.

What gain would a licensed expert in the field of mental health and/or addiction have to make false allegations in the press?

This huge conspiracy theory that everyone is simply jealous or resentful just doesn't hold up.

And really, if you have that many resentful ex-members (as you say you do)..........then WHY? Shouldn't you, at a minimum, be looking at that?

XQ, I think your ideas about NY are right on.

A pamphlet on predatory practices would be a wonderful start.

Surely, NONE of us could object to that.

I wonder if petitions forwarded to them requesting such a thing would be effective?

Jane D..You won't believe this but there is a member in the Midtown group, I think her name is Rachael or Rebecca, that is a liscensed adolescent counselor/psycologist. She actually has an office and counsels adolescents. How would you like it if you found out you were paying a psycologist to treat your son or daughter and you found out that she was in the hierarchy of the Midtown Group?

(Blank) asked, please clarify your point. , It seems to me that Timewilltell is advocating that the entire program of AA needs to stop sponsorship.

"NOT" TO STOP THE OUTSIDE SPONSORSHIP SYSTEM FROM BRINGING PEOPLE TO A.A WHO NEED IT.

WE ALL NEED TO STOP THE PROMOTING OF DISTINCTIONS AMONSTS PEOPLE ALREADY HERE IN A.A.

"UNITY"
WHAT THE TRADITIONS WERE WROTE FOR.
A PROGRAM OF ATTRACTION
not this followship crap.
If you want what we have, get a sponsor IS SICK SICK SICK

ONE HAS EVERYTHING THEY NEED WHEN THEY WALKED THROUGH THE DOORS OF A.A., THEY BROUGHT IT WITH THEM. ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS DISCOVER IT, BEFORE SOMEONE DISCOVERS THEM.

If anyone is having trouble with this, PLEASE
talk to many other members of A.A. not another distinction. You all know who that is

It was suggested that
A pamphlet on predatory practices would be a wonderful start.

Why promote fear in a pamphlet?

In 1975 the pamphlet SPONSORSHIP came out
little over 3 years after Bill W Passed on.

Clarance S A Self PROCLAIMED "FATHER OF ALCOHOLIC ANONYMOUS, Who started the sponsorship system on his own, around A.A. in 1944. Look into the past, it can be our greatest asset. In Google search type "Clarance S the father of Alcoholics Anonyomus"

Thats how the label "sponsor" was injected in A.A. and their is a lot more with these abrasive personality types.
Bill W started to write the Traditions in earlier 1946 and published them in 1949 in the 12X12, Do you think he left the label
sponsor out of the Traditions for a reason?
Yet mentioned "IT" and giving an example of
it in hospitals bringing someone to A.A.

Why not walk with out heads up?

"ONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE"

Many will help anyone that is in trouble in A.A. if you are not sitting in a meeting with your "sponsor" that does not allow certain gender alcoholics to come in and JOIN, I would look at that also.
ANYWHERE ANY TIME

Yes, her name is Rachel K. and she is a licensed therapist. She had about 12 years sober when her husband left her and she relapsed. She then went into Midtown for the first time and stayed. It always struck me as odd that she would go into Midtown after spending 12 years in real A.A. and knowing what they were all about. But when she relapsed she was hungry for sex and approval and superficial fun so Midtown fit the bill I presume. She hooked up with Bryce who is a big guru in Midtown. He's got like 25 years sober and is a total sleaze. He's the one that sued McDonald's when he spilled coffee on his gonads. He has a long history of conning and shifty behavior...and "borrowing" $ from others in A.A. for his get-rich-quick schemes and then disappearing and never paying them back. Mike Q. was his sponsor. He & Rachel got engaged and then they split and the police were involved. I heard she has a restraining order against him and now they have to go to separate Midtown meetings, except of course on Sunday nights when there is only one meeting. I guess they stay on opposite ends of the room on Sundays. I'm not sure if she still sees clients but I would guess so considering it is her career. But I also heard she might be looking to go to other meetings. I hope so.

INTERESTING

• Clarence S. - Dorothy S.M. was wife; early Cleveland A.A., led revolt & announced special meeting of alcoholics separate from Oxford Group; started & founded group Cleveland group May 18 1939 Cleveland Heights home of Abby G.,
*called himself Father of Alcoholics Anonymous; attended John D. Rockefeller's A.A. dinner February 8, 1940; leader of group of dissident "anti" Conference & "anti" General Service Office, his story "Home Brewmeister" in all 3 editions of Big Book (A 19-20,183) (C 49,131) (D 101,109,115,142-5,208-11, 216 ,218-9, 241, 245, 248, 252, 261, 263, 265, 267-8, 270-1, 312-3) (G 50, 103) (N 75, 78, 84) (P 203, 224, 255, 257) (S 32, 155) (BB1

Headed to the "roots" of the cancer.

Not meaning to promote the happening here is very similar to a past true documentary "The Wave" A 1981 California Palo Alto high school experience?
If you have a hard time finding it, Its also on youtube, again not meaning to promote but to learn.

U people are clueless about AA. Bill Wilson NEVER made any mention of sponsoring people. He NEVER made any mention of repeatedly doing steps over and over like you hear in meetings all the time. The steps weren't done in months like they do now. They IMMEDIATELY did all of them and that was that.

I cannot believe someone is running a 12 step workshop and is completely clueless about AA>

There was once a group years and years and years ago that served BEER at their meetings. Everyone in the Washington AA community was aghast and wanted the group disbanded. Of course this is not the same sick situation as Midtown. However, AA cannot tell a group what to do. The beer group finally died and if we keep praying, the same fate will become Midtown. If not, well ... Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake.

I think it would be a mistake, if we were not responsible sober this time.

Bill W. had a sponsor, his name was Ebby.

Here's an excerpt regarding sponsorship by Bill W.

The Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety
by Bill Wilson

Copyright © AA Grapevine, Inc, January 1958

Spiritual calculus, you say? Not a bit of it. Watch any AA of six months working with a new Twelfth Step case. If the case says "To the devil with you," the Twelfth Stepper only smiles and turns to another case. He doesn't feel frustrated or rejected. If his next case responds, and in turn starts to give love and attention to other alcoholics, yet gives none back to him, the sponsor is happy about it anyway. He still doesn't feel rejected; instead he rejoices that his one-time prospect is sober and happy. And if his next following case turns out in later time to be his best friend (or romance) then the sponsor is most joyful. But he well knows that his happiness is a by-product--the extra dividend of giving without any demand for a return.

GOOD OLD EBBY

Ebby was a member of the oxford group and got drunk after talking with Bill W, when he did talked with Bill in 1934 the Big Book was not even wrote yet till 1939!. Did they again "forget the label" in the Big Book and Steps? The Traditions knew this was going to happen
that's why they were wrote the TRADITIONS, one should read them without injecting Myth's into them.

Bill W, did and said a lot of things to try to help his friend later, as a human, Bill W just could only help EBBY by giving him 200.00 a month till he died. Some think he some how may of been sober a year or two but not in A.A. when he passed on.

The Myth's of a sponsor!, there are many substitutions for faith, but there is no substitution for the God that could and would if sought.

Blank try to make a example,
"Watch "any AA of six months" working with a new Twelfth Step case."

It means if anyone is here with "6 months" they should help anther drunk to A.A.

Are you trying to say at 6 months "everyone" is your so called label sponsor?

Look a little closer

Defending a label in A.A., what, a concept!

Whank Whank Whank Whank Whank Whank. Now I feel like a character in Charlie Borwn. Listining to people here talk about how much "they know" about AA, and Sponsorship is giving me a headache.

Not the myth but the "REAL" definition of the label sponsor.

http://www.yourdictionary.com
1. One who assumes responsibility for another person or a group during a period of instruction, apprenticeship, or probation.
2. One who vouches for the suitability of a candidate for admission.
3. A legislator who proposes and urges adoption of a bill.
4. One who presents a candidate for baptism or confirmation; a godparent.
5. One that finances a project or an event carried out by another person or group, especially a business enterprise that pays for radio or television programming in return for advertising time.

Who here can claim this of another "sober" one - The sober one would need outside physiological help!
Now, a drunk who is drunk, is not always in his right mind and needs help, "go out there" and help them as was meant and then when sobered up ask him if he or she is willing to try A.A.

A simple suggested program turned into a program of suggestions by the S.S.

Is the Mike Q's and midtown groups around A.A. just trying to be this sponsor? or are they mislead by there self proclaimed fathers?

oldtimer wrote: "There was once a group years and years and years ago that served BEER at their meetings. Everyone in the Washington AA community was aghast and wanted the group disbanded. Of course this is not the same sick situation as Midtown. However, AA cannot tell a group what to do. The beer group finally died and if we keep praying, the same fate will become Midtown. If not, well ... Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake."

But was that "beer group" given national media attention in the mainstream press with the AA name? Is it listed in resources which define AA, like Wikipedia or Webster's?

We don't tell a group what to do UNLESS they are affecting other groups or AA as a whole.

I'm all for praying, but how on earth do we continue to keep AA as a program of attraction if our message is: "Yes, we know that many minors and their parents have accused of us of sexual predation, but don't worry....we're praying for it to end." ??

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be flippant, but can't you see how that might look to the general public?

How many CHILDREN need to die and/or come forward with allegations of statutory rape before we put forth a stance of zero-tolerance?

How can we allow Midtown to continue to remain autonomous given this situation?

whank posted, Listining to people here talk about how much "they know" about AA, and Sponsorship is giving me a headache.

NOTICE HOW HE ATTACHED THE LABEL SPONSOR TO A.A., NOW INSIDE OF A.A. without being mentioned in the BIG BOOK!
It's more than a Headache, more like a heart ache here, ask the victims of the sponsorship system inside A.A.

exexex wrote, "ok to (blank) when is this Montgomery County court date circus? date and time?"

It's all public record. Last week in October in the Circuit Ct of MC (I think). You are welcome to go to the clerk's office and pull the records for the Dickinson vs. Sendelback case. All the people named in the posting you responded to have reported they will be there to testify on Tammy's behalf-whether they will actually show up-we'll see (this I know because I got it from one of the people testifying). Look it up, I believe you can find this stuff online. I even think one of the myspace midtown hater sites did a blog on it. You can find your own date and time out. If I had more time to deal with your simple mind I would.

Reposted from the Discussion board on http://www.myspace.com/thefallofmidtown

That which is fed and unconfronted, grows. Always. Be it based in positivity or negativity. There are many examples to be found. Take The Midtown Group (MG), for instance. Clearly, they are a destructive force for AA. Yet, what does anyone do? They use up Newcomers like they were worthless. Need a case in point? Ok. Here you go...

There are individuals that have formed an organization, which call themselves "Love and Service" (LS). They have every intention of bringing the MG's negative influence, to light, for all of the world to see, as well as help the MG's conditioned members receive psychological help, as they attempt to leave the MTG.

The MG, feeling the threat of exposure, that could limit their consumption of Newcomers, decided to fight back by setting up the Public Relations Chair Person of LS with a false charge. The MG not only used a woman to file false "stalking / harassment" charges on this Trusted Servant, they also manipulated (pressured) more than 30 of their impressionable Newcomers, to lie in a Court of Law, to back up said charges.

What the MG didn't count on was that what manipulative practices that work in AA meetings and on its broken fellowship, does not work, by any stretch of the imagination, in a Court of Law. Some of these Newcomers, that were being sacrificed in this legal sham, began realizing this by the end of the first court session and decided to run away and not be charged with slander, and for lying in a Court of Law, in the second session (because they were losing the case by a landslide). And why do I use the word, sacrificed? Because the AA program is such that the only known way to be relieved of Alcoholism, is to establish and maintain a growing level of spiritual conditioning. Pushing Newcomers to lie in Court, is going against that spiritual conditioning, and the MG long timers knew this, and cared not. These MG long timers would easily use up and throw away more than 30 of their Newcomers because they know d**n well that they will replenish their number, within a short period of time, due to their effective and well oiled outreach machine. Need an example of that as well? Wait a minute. No less than two of them will be at your meeting, outreaching for their new play and for more Newcomers, this Holiday Season

By the second Court session, a typically weak willed MG (well over 21 year old) member, was called up to the stand, by a Judge who knew of the MG very well and began asking him questions, concerning the sexual exploitation of seriously under age Newcomers. This typically weak willed member began describing how the leader of this Cult, relieved him of his then 14 year old girlfriend, and began a sexual relationship with her until he tired of her, at the ripe old age of 17. Yeah...
For obvious reasons, the case was dropped, the Newcomers were clearly used and the Court system has direct evidence that the MG and its self imposed leader, is using children as sexual outlets for their emotionally and spiritually sick fatherly long timers, and the Court system has every intention of using said information to file child molestation charges on some of these MG long timers as well its self imposed leader. Maybe this will bring their crimes to the light of day for some of us here that are too afraid to speak up and stand for what is right?

Now, here's my question... How is the general AA community going to respond to this clear and present elephant, that is tearing its house down? How long is it going to let this Cult (AKA the Q. Group) disguised as a set AA groups (at least 18 controlled AA meetings) wear down the integrity of the AA program, before they take a stand and stop this madness!?

This is where all of us, one and all, need to stand up for that which is meant to save lives and not exploit them, and shout out, that this Cult stops here and now. That we of AA want them to stop running WAIA and its committees, stop manning the AA phones, stop rewriting the Where and When's to only have themselves as "Young Peoples Meetings" and to get the f**k out of the Institutions, where they actually recruit many of their more weaker willed members!

Seriously now people, it's way past time to wake up and offer them the credit that they so rightfully deserve. It's time to take responsibility for our own inactions, for because of them; the MG has thrived, like a virus. We need to wake up and stop feeding this virus by our inactions and stop them from hurting another Newcomer, right now.

Reposted from a Blog on "one of the myspace midtown hater sites".

This was meant as a message for all AA members, from an AA member.

"It's not about "picking a side". We're not in Junior High and we're not about world domination, or world peace (for that matter). It's about doing what is right. Ask your Higher Power, during self examination, prayer and meditation, what His will is for you, then do what you believe is morally and ethically right for yourself, as well as for those about you. Learn from the experience. Pass what you have learned to another. Grow. Continue to learn. Be there when those that have lost their way, begin to search for home again. Reach out your hand, and walk with them. Offer to unconditionally guide them through the program of recovery, so that they can experience their promised spiritual awakening. Through their spiritual awakening, they will recover from alcoholism. After which, in order to maintain their spiritual condition, one of their chosen responsibilities will be to pass their working knowledge to another. In turn, that recipient of unconditional love and support will most likely do the same, and for similar reasons. Within time, you will see yourself, as well as those that you have been of service to, as strong links in a long, humble and powerful chain which has but one true primary purpose; and that is to be of maximum service to God (as you may understand Him) and to your fellows, through love and service. Within time, if our AA principles are individually maintained, our temporary fellowship difficulties will self heal."

* Author wished to remain anonymous *

Okay Jane. You've made some very interesting points.

(1) Is it listed in resources which define AA, like Wikipedia or Webster's?

-- HELLO! Wiki is not, repeat ... IS NOT gospel. It is written by wiki users so if I post something about YOUR home group would it be doctrine? Would it be true? NO. Your reference to Webster's? What is that about?

(2) How many CHILDREN need to die and/or come forward with allegations of statutory rape before we put forth a stance of zero-tolerance?

-- You tell us, Jane. How many children will YOU allow to die before YOU find the solution to this mess.

(3) We don't tell a group what to do UNLESS they are affecting other groups or AA as a whole.

-- Your continuing argument in this dialogue is to TELL another group what to do. THEY must do this, THEY must do that. Shaking your finger and telling someone/something to change is futile. Do you really think you have that kind of POWER??

(3) How can we allow Midtown to continue to remain autonomous given this situation?

-- You ask a lot of questions, but no answers are coming from you.

What's the answer? Huh? Huh? What are YOU going to do, Jane? Have YOU attended a WAIA meeting? Have YOU written letters to World General Services? Tell us EXACTLY what YOU have done, Jane, to fix this problem. Have YOU approached any members of Midtown? Could you? Would you?

p.s. back in the early days of AA a person with six months of sobriety was an OLD TIMER. It was very difficult to stay sober in those days and there were plenty of relapses.

So how does that website qualify as "haters?" Based on these 2 blogs, I see no evidence of hatred. It seems their cause is focused on encouraging dialog identical to what's going on here. Do Midtown members think everyone but the defenders are "haters."

"Why promote fear in a pamphlet?"

Things that are dangerous should come with a warning label.

Mike from Kensington, Dickinson vs. Sendelback is clearly a civil case representing a dispute between two individuals, such as a contract interpretation.

This is not a criminal matter, something you should have made clear. Perhaps it's wiser to let the court decide this matter in accordance with the rules of evidence and the law and not try and give your own hearsay, garbled version.

Oldtimer, I am happy to engage in a dialogue about this, but I'm sensing a lot hostility in your response to me, and I'm not sure where that's coming from. I'm not trying to anger you or anyone else--simply trying to engage in a discussion about, and challenge some defenses of, what I believe to be a serious issue affecting AA.

-- HELLO! Wiki is not, repeat ... IS NOT gospel. It is written by wiki users so if I post something about YOUR home group would it be doctrine? Would it be true? NO. Your reference to Webster's? What is that about? --

I don't think Wikipedia is gospel. It's an online encyclopedia, as far as I know. It seems to be a credible a source of information to a lot of people. Perhaps it's not as credible as I think--which is why I was asking what other people thought about it's inclusion of the Midtown situation.

-- You tell us, Jane. How many children will YOU allow to die before YOU find the solution to this mess. --

I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I have a solution to this situation. I have stated before that I have NO idea what a solution would be. But why would that preclude me (or anyone) from discussing it or having an opinion.

I wish there was a solution. I wish I knew what it was.

-- Your continuing argument in this dialogue is to TELL another group what to do. THEY must do this, THEY must do that. Shaking your finger and telling someone/something to change is futile. Do you really think you have that kind of POWER?? --

Not at all. I've suggested what I THINK Midtown ought to do based on my understanding of AAs Traditions and principles. I think that they have violated the 4th Tradition by affecting AA as a whole. And as such, they should not be granted the autonomy that we grant most groups.

I also think that they ought to be doing a group invetory and making amends.

That's my opinion. Take it for what it's worth....

Other people on here have suggested that some of us suck on each other's genitals.

I'll take that suggestion for what it's worth, too. LOL

-- You ask a lot of questions, but no answers are coming from you.

What's the answer? Huh? Huh? What are YOU going to do, Jane? Have YOU attended a WAIA meeting? Have YOU written letters to World General Services? Tell us EXACTLY what YOU have done, Jane, to fix this problem. Have YOU approached any members of Midtown? Could you? Would you? --

I've done some of the things you've suggested. Others are not feasible. But, none of it precludes me (or ANY of us) from voicing an opinion or asking questions or participating in this dialogue. And I'm not clear why it's more or less incumbent upon me to have a solution or provide answers than anyone else here.

FYI, from Wikipedia: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source."

The inclusion of allegations against *AA* on Wikipedia are referenced to Newsweek.

So it doesn't seem that anyone could post anything about anyone's home group or AA willy-nilly.

Well at least Wiki has its own rules. AA, as we all know, does not have rules.

Solutions.... We were attempting to focus on the solutions.

Before doing so, we all need to accept that there will be a fair amount of looking at ourselves and our individual Home Groups as well, for without us and our unwillingness to accept responsibility and participate at the Area level, Midtown would have never found its niche, and then continue to exploit it for all that it is worth. One of Midtown's primary WAIA defenses is that they fulfill a vital role in our area (WAIA, Area 13), which unfortunately is true. What is also true is their unwillingness to allow people from outside of the Midtown Group to participate in most of these Sub Committees. In essence, it would reasonably appear that we have a duel problem.

Most A.A. groups depend on Midtown to run most of WAIA, and Midtown has little want to allow A.A. members outside of the Midtown Group to participant in these Committees, further than that of menial duties, which allow these A.A. members to be of no real influence to said Committees. I can only assume that some of these A.A. members feel as if they are but helping to feed a machine that is ultimately consuming its own. I have felt that way myself, while attempting to be of service there. Many A.A. members have attempted to make a change at WAIA. Since the last election, the monthly meeting has held 3 times the Intergroup Rep's that it did before the election. More A.A. members and their Home Groups are finally seeing that they have to be of service at the Area level, or someone, or something else will do it for them and they may have their own agenda. Need a current example? Ok.

Example: Go to the next WAIA Hospitals and Institutions Committee Meeting and count the number of A.A. members there, who are not in Midtown. If there are any, did they just show up to be of service? Great! However, were they actually given a service position where these A.A. members could carry the message of A.A. into a Hospital or Institution? Chances are, you will see few A.A. members outside of Midtown there, and unless they co sign Midtown's message, they will NOT be given a chairperson position, which allows that service member to carry an A.A. meeting into a Hospital or Institution.

How can that be? Surely, there must be A.A. members that have wanted to be of service within a Hospital or Institution? Yes, of course there are, but what these A.A. members experience, is a glass wall that certain Midtown Group members have placed there, prohibiting A.A. members outside of their group from carrying the message of A.A. After a period of time, the A.A. members that have attempted to participate in these Committees finally get disgusted and walk away. It reminds me of a restricted club, which only certain and approved members can enter and participate. I was one of four A.A. members, with over 50 years of sobriety and 12 step of experience between us (who wanted to be of service on that Committee), and we experienced this wall in force.

So, where does that leave us, in regards to a working solution? Again, we have to look at ourselves and our Home Group (H.G.) first. Here's some questions that we can ask ourselves and other H.G members.

1. Am I and other H.G. members helping to make it the best H.G. that it can be? If so, how?
2. Has my H.G taken a Group Inventory, to see if it's fulfilling its primary purpose?
3. Does my H.G. have a "Greeter", to welcome a Newcomer as he or she is walking through a door that's unnerving to most Newcomers? Are these Newcomers ignored in any way, because "I'm too busy", or because "someone else will help him or her?"
4. Do H.G. members (who have been practicing all 12 steps) offer to guide Newcomers through the 12 steps, as suggested in A.A. conference approved publications?
5. Does my H.G take a meeting to a Hospital or Institution?
6. Does my H.G have a WAIA Intergroup Representative or GSR?
7. Does my H.G participate at the Area level? If so, how?
8. Does my H.G participate in fellowship activities, such as hosting picnic's, dances, ice cream socials, going out to eat (either before or after the meeting) and the like? If not, why?

Maybe some other A.A. members can offer some reasonable and possible solutions that the average A.A. member can ask themselves and/or implement, in order to improve our deteriorating situation?

DCC wrote, "Mike from Kensington, Dickinson vs. Sendelback is clearly a civil case representing a dispute between two individuals, such as a contract interpretation. This is not a criminal matter, something you should have made clear. Perhaps it's wiser to let the court decide this matter in accordance with the rules of evidence and the law and not try and give your own hearsay, garbled version."

There is no "garbled version" to what I wrote. I wrote what I knew for fact and what I didn't know I indicated "I think". There was no need for me to make anything clear; exexex wanted to know so I pointed him/her in the direction where he/she could get the answers. No hearsay here-sorry. Everything I wrote you can actually go and see for yourself, pull the court's records if it's that important to you.

This civil case should bring a lot of things to light. A person's connection to the cult like Midtown Group and how that has played a dominating role her life is one of the things in question. It should interest those on both sides of this argument to see what is revealed. It is possible that the court record could tell us volumes considering perjury is a serious crime...unless members of the Midtown Group are really willing to go to any lengths to protect their own....hmmmm, can't imagine that ever happening.

To the others who had something to say about me identifying the myspace sites as "haters", point taken and understood. If I could do over I would indicate that they were "informational" sites, not "haters". Love your sites and look forward to your upcoming blogs.

Remaining Teachable,

Thanks for an interesting and thought-provoking post.

First, I have heard of the WAIA but know very little about it. I have been a GSR for my group in Northern Va in the past. I think it's clearly an excellent idea that all eligible groups participate, although I believe only a tiny fraction of AA members in the DC metropolitan area had ever heard of the horrendous practices at Midtown until recently. Hospitals and institutions are where Midtown can get its best, most naive customers, so I'd hate to think they run that committee. (Although groups I go to help run meetings in jails and homeless shelters and I don't think anyone's heard of WAIA. Is it your experience that institutions won't allow AA members not authorized by the WAIA committee to help with meetings? Because I'll bet that is about to change if Midtown runs the committee.)

So: Do you know where I can get additional information about the WAIA, Area 13 group? It would be especially good if there were something on the web. Thanks.

Second, I believe that this blog and dissemination of information to all AAs and interested professions and institutions is a big part of the solution. I'm sure the Midtown situation was not known generally until recently. And judging from the hailstorm of abuse that fell on anyone who shared any story of Midtown abuse or made any criticism of Midtown when this blog started (and the worst was removed by the Post, unfortunately), that isn't surprising. The first Midtown wave here was abuse, lie, and deny, abuse, lie, and deny. I think we're thru that phase.

I think that there are at least two different tangible and useful purposes for a blog like this. First, we need to get the information out. Authentic, real life stories by those with direct personal knowledge of Midtown abuse - former members, parents, therapists and other professionals, current members willing to talk, and others. These stories have a power that far transcends any abstract discussions about traditions and the like and general summaries put up by people like me, who have (to me) completely credible but secondhand information. We need the real stories. Then we need to get as widespread dissemination as possible.

The second purpose is online coordination to make further plans. We need to make plans and come up with strategies. You aren't the only one to suggest the WAIA; we clearly need to pursue that. We also ought to organize, possibly with outsiders like the therapists and other professionals who have expressed (to put it politely) concern. We need to build a community with an interest in ending this abuse. I doubt it's feasible to consider this as an AA activity per se. Even though Midtown can run its charade as an AA group, I think we should consider a community which considers the perspective of AA members but others as well. This broader base will give us a lot more power. No one in this broader based effort will speak in favor of molestation, sexual abuse, economic exploitation, and the other abuses. No one will think that spiritually based anonymity should allow these activities to continue unabated. No one in this broader based effort will think they have no right to try and curtail these abuses. We will also have more information about the effects of cultlike organizations, sexual abuse shaming, quick withdrawal of certain medications, and the like.

As AA members, we can also draw up some guidelines that an AA group should follow. I'm sure AA has published some already. some would be 1) oppose the assignment of newcomers to sponsors and oppose men sponsoring women and vice versa; 2) oppose the voting of members into or out of any AA group; 3) oppose the pressuring of members to drop medical treatment or prescriptions; 4) oppose the establishment of permanent leaders for a group; 5) oppose the teaching that newcomers must have sex with sponsors to learn spirituality; 6) oppose sponsors' use of sponsees as personal servants; 7) At least temporarily for a year or so, require Midtown to provide its financial books and records for review by a responsible disinterested party; 8) Perform a group inventory with particular attention to the individuals the group has harmed, with a provision for the acknowledgment of the harm and amends to be made to those harmed. (These are some ideas off the top of my head.)

Your HG questions are good. I'd say my HG stacks up pretty well. But I'm sure we could always do better.

Mike, I don't know exactly where you are coming from re this court case. If true information about Midtown comes out, so much the better. I didn't indicate you'd written anything "garbled" because all you'd written that I recall was the first names of people who were testifying in some court case and you were looking forward to it.

You might not want to get your hopes too high. Civil cases are postponed all the time and settled confidentially before trial more often than not. Still, if there is the hope that true information about Midtown abuses will come out, I'll certainly keep my fingers crossed!

www.aa-dc.org

RE: Remaining Teachable
The Traditions of .A.A is the Answer not another group conscious here.
A.A. came form the hearts of individuals. One alcoholic talking "to" anther not "at " or "grouped upon". (Not meaning you)

MY HOME GROUP IS ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS - ANY WHERE ANY TIME

This HOME GROUP stuff should be ones personal home, at home. Has ones program gotten so complicated and big that it cannot get it out the door of a meeting?
It's easy to look and sound good in a meeting, ask the Mike Q clones.

To participate in A.A is one thing, to make it ones personal home is another. "Personal ambition has no place in A.A." Tradition Eleven pg183

Other members should learn to know how and in "order" the TRADITIONS OF A.A. WORK. "Tradition One 12X12 pg 129

"Does this mean, some will anxiously ask, "that in A.A. the individual doesn't count for much? Is he to be dominated by his group and swallowed up in it?" WE MAY CERTAINLY ANSWER THIS QUESTION WITH A "LOUD" "NO!"

Learn to live and speak the language of the heart

Read it for your self in the 12X12 learn to participate in life without institutional directions. Let us JOIN A.A. instead of follow
others, stay close to the groups watch out not to get sucked into again, follow the Traditions that's what they are here for.

When all else fails (sponsors, groups, simply put, people, places and things) read and live the Traditions for they are the applications of the steps then Come JOIN US instead of hoping and needing to follow another

Thanks, waia link.

I went to the web site and it says:

"Welcome to Area 13. The Washington Area General Service Assembly (WAGSA) includes the District of Columbia, the adjoining Montgomery and Prince George's counties in Maryland, and the Hispanic Groups in the District of Columbia, Maryland, and Virginia."

Virginia, including Northern Virginia, is Area 71.

Well, sigh, I'm in Northern Va and not in any Hispanic Group, so the only actual rule that I think I've seen in AA says that none of my groups is eligible to send a representative to WAIA. :-(

Solution:

PG 129 Tradition 1: No one can compel another to do anything.
Is he to be dominated by his group and swallowed up in it?
We may answer this with a LOUD "NO"

Pg 132 Tradition 2 When indeed no A.A can give another a directive
The soul authority is a loving God as he MAY express himself in "the group" conscience. not "

Tradition 3 The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
"One does not have to be sponsored anymore."

Tradition 4 Each group should be autonomous EXCEPT in matters affecting A.A. as a whole.
" End gender selected meetings and live by a true A.A. pledge and preamble."

Tradition 5 Each group has but one primary purpose to carry "IT"S" message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
" The message of A.A. the Big Book/ 12X12 not ones "personal" experience"

Tradition 6 An A.A. group ought NEVER endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any RELATED facility or OUTSIDE enterprise, lest Problem of money, property, and "PRESTIGE" divert us from OUR primary purpose. Thats a no brainier

IF ONE HAS NOT GOT IT FROM HERE, "TURN YOUR BACK", AND SURRENDER TO PEOPLE, PLACES AND
THINGS ONE MORE TIME.

It's impossible to find the truth in ones self when looking for the truth in others. It's only a daily reprieve for "ANY" of US.

Many who believe in years, never understood, the meaning of, we all have only a daily reprieve. "One day at a time"
We all, will have a sobriety date one day, weather on a sugar coated cake or carved in the stone on ones grave.
Live and let live.

DCC, have you visited the myspace websites for Concerned Friends, Psuedoname, Love and Service and The Fall of Midtown; AKA Q Group? The work done by the editors, along with many others, of those spaces has been going on for over 18 months. Stories have been collected and made part of packets to take to churches who have given Midtown meeting space. Alot of your suggestions have already been put into place. I just wondered if you had visited those sites to see the informational blogs, suggestions and stories posted there.

Only a Home Group (appropriately guided and served by trusted servants) would attempt and complete a Traditions Home Group Inventory; then make the adjustments necessary to improve the effectiveness of its ability to reach the Newcomers that happen upon it and transmit the A.A. message of recovery to them. Most meetings within the DC, Metropolitan area wouldn't even consider taking one, much less accept the truth that it would offer and make what adjustments that the Inventory suggests. These are the same exact meetings that wholly depend on Midtown to run Area 13, which, if you didn't know, is Montgomery County, PG County and Washington, DC. These are the same exact meetings that help Midtown suck up A.A.'s Newcomers through WAIA's Hospital and Institutional Committee, because of their utter lack of involvement there.

In other words (and most of us will have a difficult time accepting this), if the A.A. meeting that you consistently frequent doesn't have (at least) a GSR, WAIA Hospital and Institutional Representative and a WAIA Intergroup Representative, you have no voice in Area 13 and your meetings decisions are being made by Midtown members and you are helping to feed them with fresh new Newcomers because of your inability to accept that each A.A. member is, to an extent, responsible for A.A. as a whole and that means carrying the A.A. message of hope to places where Newcomers may not be able to come to you or your meeting.

Saying that A.A. is my Home Group is a cope out. That's the voice of someone with little or no Area level experience. Has anyone here read any part of 12 Concepts of World Service? A.A. is an upside down triangle and the "Home Group" is where all the real power is. This is where A.A.'s decisions are actually made. When a meeting that assumes that it's a Home Group does not have a GSR, WAIA Hospital and Institutional Representative and a WAIA Intergroup Representative, they are misleading themselves. I can think of no real A.A. Home Group that doesn't engage in some form of scheduled and committed type of 12 step (activity) service outside of its meeting location, while not engaging in Area service so that its voice can be heard.

Here's an example of what's happening right now:

There are around 1500 meetings in Area 13, every single week. If they were all Home Groups, then there would be around 1500 WAIA Intergroup Representatives there for the monthly Intergroup Representative meeting. At the last WAIA monthly Intergroup Representative meeting, we had around 170 Reps, tops... That's about 1% of the Reps that we should have had. Numbers are numbers. They are not lying to you right now, and neither am I.

We all need to learn a great deal more about Area service around here. Not only that, but 99% more of us need to suit up and show up at the Area level, or Midtown will NEVER go away.

Now watch, someone who doesn't want to stop watching TV, will break away from it for 5 minutes to debunk what I just wrote, because he/she had been advised to make coffee for an A.A. meeting and thought that he/she was being controlled by his/her sponsor.

Here's just a small part of what happenend to my daughter relating to the H&I Committee controled by Midtown. When she was in Northern VA Mental Health Hosp. due to a breakdown after a Midtown member took her meds (at Q's direction), THE ONLY GROUP who was allowed to bring a meeting into that Hospital was....you guessed it? Midtown. We tried to tell the staff about how she ended up there to begin with, but they blew it off completely. That was 1 year ago.

Why does a group intent on taking away your medications FIRST THING when you get in the group, want to recruit newcomers straight from a hospital who just put them on that medication? Its cruel, if you ask me.

Oh, I forgot... Midtown had more than 30 of its group members showing up as Intergroup Representatives and their numbers are growing...and they vote as one. When I said that 170 Reps were there, I meant tops. So, because 99% of the known A.A. meetings that currently exist were not present to voice what was expressed in their Group Consciousness, Midtown can sway the vote as they damn well please, and everyone outside of the Midtown group has to suck it up.

Am I reaching anyone here....? Midtown, as a group, will not change. Stop throwing the Traditions at them because they're not listening. If anything, (in this thread) they have proved that they WILL NOT LISTEN. We cannot reach that group, as a whole, with reason. It just won't happen.

We have to change. We have to suit up and show up. We have to grow up, accept responsibility for our Area and fulfill that responsibility with our behavior; then, and only then, will a real change begin to happen.

There is a very small group of us that are trying to make this change, but we cannot do it without your help. Please help us to make this positive change. We need your help. WAIA needs your help. Our Newcomers need your help. I need your help.

Hi Another Mom! No, I don't know anything about a myspace page but it sounds encouraging. So I will check it out.

That's a pretty horrible story about your daughter. I wonder if the hospital still has the same fuzzy feeling about Midtown? If they are like most other bureaucracies, probably. :-(

Hi Teach,

I don't get the idea that anyone thinks Midtown will listen to the Traditions or any other program guidance or literature. However, it's an important point to others that they don't

I wouldn't just limit this to Area 13 members of AA. To begin with, there are a large number of meetings in Northern Va. There are also concerned family, health professionals, churches and religious groups (many of whom have and possibly still are allowing Midtown to use their facilities), and others who would like to help.

AA does not live in a vacuum. Midtown cannot survive in anything like its present form if its abuses become well known in the general community. I think looking at this as an Area 13 internal governance problem is taking too narrow a view here, although that aspect of the solution should certainly be pursued.

Remaining Teachable
"Saying that A.A. is my Home Group is a cope out. That's the voice of someone with little or no Area level experience. Has anyone here read any part of 12 Concepts of World Service? A.A. is an upside down triangle and" the "Home Group" is where "all "the real" power is."
"Stop throwing the Traditions at them because they're not listening."

And the "home Group does not have all the "real" power, you are conditioned my friend and I know you believe what you are saying but your are conditioned, God could and would if sought.
Look to the Traditions they are the " Ought" of Alcoholics Anonymous, if you can't do what you "OUGHT" to don't call yourself an A.A. group.
A.A being a home group leave one a "FREE SPIRIT" not some conditional institutional distinction from others with "REAL POWER"

You are saying you need help to make your home group more powerful?, sounds like you need a different program to fit your statements into. The Traditions are not for them, they are for "US". get it
May God's help you if that is acceptable to your conditioning.

God will works wonders for people or groups who don't claim it.

Have you ever herd the saying when three or more are gathered? Not meaning just an A.A. group either.

The catch is, in his name, not some home groupies.

Page 162 in the Big Book "Thus we grow. and so can you" read on a little more.
A.A. started with no home groups.
Yet it is important to stay close for many reasons. Don't get swallowed up again and again.

Hi Teach
It's not for them its for "US"

Lets get back to helping the sick drunk who is alcoholic to A.A., instead of tiring to heal the sick sponsors in A.A.

For those keeping track, the Dickenson v. Sendelback case is a custody case. My understanding is that the mother (Sendelback) is a Midtowner but the father (Dickenson) is not. I'm not sure if he ever was but there is quite a history with the two of them going back to 2003 when she filed a domestic violence case against him but the Court denied it. Courts seldom deny domestic violence cases so it was probably convinced she was lying. Last year she filed criminal charges against him - 5 counts of stalking, telephone misuse and harrassment. The case was "steted" meaning it was placed on an inactive docket. Prosecutors use stet cases when they don't think the victim is credible but they hate to simply drop cases especially cases on the domestic violence docket as this one surely was. Sendelback also has a federal tax lien filed against her and an unpaid judgment owed to Suburban Hospital (her address in this case is Mike Q's) and a pending collection case for unpaid bills.
I have only reviewed the docket for the custody case but it has obviously been nasty (not unusual for contested custody cases). She is clearly trying to restrict his access to the child and resisted the appointment of an attorney for the child. I hope to review the file next week. I will love to see what the filings actually say, especially the pretrial statements. Someone named Peter Worden was subpoenaed, presumably for a deposition. Trial is set for October 29. It appears that Sendelback has the financial edge.
It could make for an interesting trial.

What part of "only !% of all A.A. meetings in Area 13 are represented at WAIA", does everyone not understand? Midtown controls WAIA because only 155 Intergroup Rep's usually show up at the monthly meeting (when there should be over 1,500 Rep's) and around 30 of them are from various Midtown controlled meetings. When they are instructed to, they vote as one. That means that when there is a vote (at any current date and time), they control approximately 25% of the vote. What does that mean for every non Midtown controlled A.A. meeting? Well, that means that Midtown is your voice now, and because your A.A. meeting has chosen to not responsibly participation at the Area level, you actually have conceded your vote and your voice, to the Midtown group.

If just one Intergroup and H&I Representative showed up for ever 50 A.A. meetings, WAIA would have the service structure available to withdraw from its dependence on Midtown members. Case in point... Who answers the phones, at the desk? Who is in control of the Where and When? Why have some A.A. meetings that have spoken out against the midtown Group, been deleted from the Where and When? Who is running the H&I Committee? How many non Midtown members are taking meetings to a Hospital or Institution in Montgomery County? Who runs the Rules Committee and how is it run? What would happen if all Midtown members discontinued any and all active service work throughout WAIA?

Do you know any of these answers? Most likely, you do not. You're a free spirited A.A. member and A.A. as a whole is your home group. You follow the Traditions and you don't want or need a sponsor. Well, good for you. You can rest on those comforting thoughts, but it will only enable this problem to continue growing.

Our Co Founders had Home Groups. Dr. Bob committed to a great deal of service work through his Hospital commitment. When those he guided through the steps were discharged, he recommended "Trust God, clean house and help others". He also suggested that they go to existing A.A. meetings. Even then, when a active alcoholic called a local Intergroup office, that office would contact available A.A. members who would talk to the prospect, and offer to help the prospect to a Hospital, if it was needed. A.A. members from the 12 steppers Home group would visit the prospect, while the prospect was in the Hospital. When the prospect was leaving the hospital, those same home group members were there to help the prospect home and acclimate him into the A.A. way of life, which included his invitation to join as a member of that home Group, while they guided the prospect through the steps.

People here are treating the concepts of Home Groups and sponsorship as dirty words when they are not. These concepts can be abused, as with most I guess, but they are tried and tested. I guide a fair amount of people with severe learning disabilities, through the 12 steps. They are attracted to me because I will not just buy them a BB and 12+12 and tell them to go to "lots and lots of meetings".

Teachable, You are obviously correct on the importance of the WAIA and getting broader representation by home groups. If you have been following this discussion for some time (and I suspect you have) there are simply people who don't get it or for whatever reason want to throw the discussion off track. It's frustrating, I agree, but as I say you seem on track with a very important idea, and as you're clearly motivated and knowledgeable in this area, perhaps you could develop it further here and ignore the flak thrown up by those who don't us to progress.

It's disappointing to me that the WAIA is missing probably one third of the Washington Metro area, namely Northern Va, where I live. That's just something we have to live with for now. However, if there is something I can do in this department, I'll willing to try.

So as I understand it, the WAIA produces the Where and When and it controls access to what groups can take meetings to hospitals and institutions. What are its other functions?

As a former GSR for my group in Northern Va I confess the idea that a group would try to take over a local intergroup, not list meetings in the Where and When, and not allow certain groups to take meetings to hospitals and institutions a completely alien concept, an entirely unthinkable idea for AA. So it seems critical that Midtown not be allowed to do this and that the WAIA be returned to its original purpose.

The branch of the discussion about sponsorship seems completely unproductive to me here, as is the idea that AA members have no right to try and prevent the abuses and spread of the Midtown cancer. After reading your last posts I see Midtown as even worse, if that's possible, than I did before.

So if we look at Midtown as a cancer on AA, which is seeming a better and better analogy, we might want to develop some definite objectives for dealing with it from that perspective.

Certainly several that Teachable has just mentioned are blocking Midtown from delisting existing meetings in the Where and When, and blocking Midtown from chocking off access to groups wishing to hold meetings for hospitals and institutions. What are other similar objectives?

I agree that the WAIA situation is a BIG issue. I'm sure it's been been done, but has anyone gone to the other groups and apprised them of the situation, and encouraged them to send their reps?

I also agree that we are probably not going to reach Midtown as a WHOLE with reason and a call to AA principles.

However, just like AA can plant a seed and ruin drinking, perhaps a few INDIVUALS can read some of the information here and it will plant a seed of doubt when they hear the rationalizations and defenses spouted in the hierarchy's "talking points."

but the problem is that midtown controls the committees that produce the where & when and oversee who goes to hospitals & institutions. that's why the vote later this year is so important.

Thank you to "anonymous11" and Mike for filling in some of the gaps for us. Peter Worden is the detective in Montgomery County handling the case surrounding the Midtown Group. From what a witness on the Dickinson side told me, Worden was subpoenaed to support a theory for the defendant, that if it were not for the Dickinson camp a case would never have been opened-so it's Dickinson's fault that all these public entities have picked up the story (yea, right). Apparently Dickinson was a member of the CFG and was instrumental in helping shed some light on this issue and getting the attention of the authorities. It helped that Tammy and her friends were questioned in court when she filed for the denied protective order. Dickinson had a great attorney who let it be known that Tammy and her friends were part of a dangerous group. Tammy has no money, but her mother is the financial backer here. I mean what kind of money she could have if she got fired for falsifying timesheets a little over a year ago? She admitted to this in open court. Also, now the Sendelback party is open to having an attorney for the child, they recently filed a motion to make this happen. What's interesting is that Sendelback was ordered not to bring the child to "Midtown meetings" until the final hearing could be had. Apparently the judge thought the allegations were enough not to be ignored.

You people are out of your league, H/I work is outside the doors of A.A period.
Why are you fighting about it here?

A.A is not allied with any hospitals or institution so may I ask what are you trying to do?.

To stop individuals from doing what they think is good, outside of A.A. and surly covered up with good deeds "is crazy"
Do they think they are evil ? hell no
Do they look bad? Not outside A.A. in hospitals and institutions
Are they Bad? Not outside A.A. yet or they would be in jail
Are they better than they were? I am sure of that

"WE RAISED THEM TO BE "SPONSORS TO OTHERS" AND NOW YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT WAS RAISED.".

TAKE YOU FIGHT OUTSIDE, to the hospitals and institutions "SERVICE PEOPLE "
The hospitals and institution won't know what the hell you are talking about either because it's simply outside "OF" A.A.
and service people want to drag it in, like the sponsor thing.

When you get tired come on back and learn to live through traditional A.A. ways.

IT'S SIMPLY NOT A.A. TRADITION, YOU AND THEM DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. "SERVICE PEOPLE".

I think i have a solution--- Let the police deal with it, let the courts deal with it. If there are legal issues let the leagal system take over!.

OH YEAH i forgot, the police WERE involved and realized that CFG were the crazy ones.

Worthless Jerry- I know you think you are hot sh*t but the truth remains you raped your now wife.

Kathy M - everybody knows that your husband smokes pot, no one judges you for that.

Michelle G- grow up, Rob is no good for you, you want a man who is in jail for refusing to pay child support, and stalking? He tried to kidnap her!

I can say with certainty -- because I'm one of them -- that the desk secretaries who answer the phones at WAIA are not controlled by Midtown. Furthermore, WAIA is always looking for volunteers to man the phones. So if you're interested, please contact them.

With regard to the Where and When, I don't have any direct knowledge if anyone has the ultimate authority in listing the meetings. However, if you do not see an active meeting listed, call WAIA.

This is a very useful forum for discussion, and it appears we may be working toward a solution of the questionable practices of Midtown.

Posted by: | August 28, 2007 11:09 AM
"This is a very useful forum for discussion, and it appears we may be working toward a solution of the questionable practices of Midtown."

THE MIDTOWN STRATEGY IS SIMPLE AND SOME WHAT NATURAL.
Step1
Make sure the victim is scared and weary

Step2
Tell them they can't do it alone

Step3
Intersect the person before they learn from the A.A. Big Book on their own. H/I is a great start they will come to you.

step4
Make them feel more stupid "after" they get here so they can become teachable.

Step5
Tell them they are too stupid to read the book on their own.

Step6
Let them know you are doing for them what they could not do for them self "THAT'S FOR SURE"

In sex easy steps
The end results, a "new sponsor" is hatched
works on all men and women alike.

Hi Jane D., glad to see you are still here in the middle of this blog tornado.

Yes, I think discussing this whole thing rationally in relation to AA Traditions, purpose and guidelines is an excellent idea and we should keep it up. This forum could fill an important education function.

Also the WAIA seems important in a solution here. Too bad Northern Va isn't included.

My thoughts are evolving and even given all the information I've gained and all I've thought through and written, I'm learning more every day and putting this in more context. Will post later. Let's all of us keep our spirits up!

Remaining Teachable say
"Saying that A.A. is my Home Group is a cope out. That's the voice of someone with little or no Area level experience."
"carrying the A.A. message of hope to places where Newcomers may not be able to come to "you" or "your" meeting."
"Stop throwing the Traditions at them because they're not listening."
Was Mike Q your sponsor? Are you promoting MIDTOWN? Look what you wrote.

Anybody remember the first blog title ?

Midtown Group: AA Group Leads Members Away from Traditions

How does one lead another away from something they never understood in the first place?

SHOW OTHERS TO THE TRADITIONS FOLKS and if they don't want to do them, cut them lose.
p.s. Here's the catch, people have to live the Traditions to them to do the traditions and most want nothing to do with them, especially the sponsorship system, even though they are the applications of the steps "here" in Alcoholics Anonymous

p.s. Here's the catch, people have to live the Traditions to do the traditions and most want nothing to do with them, especially the sponsor system, even though they are the applications of the steps "here" in Alcoholics Anonymous

SOLUTION:

You can't throw anybody out, right?
Invite them all over to Clancy I or Johnny H or even Keith D's home group, where they can all get along in "there" home group meeting meetings

upyourbutt youR DA MAN!

MIDTOWN IN DA HOUSE!!!!

So what happens when the newcomer wants to leave midtown but loves the fellowship there and feels that they can not find it elsewhere? Where can they go? Where are the groups that have things going on as much as midtown? Where are the groups that hold dances, organize trips, "keep the newcomer busy so they don't have to drink"?

an, there are groups like that, at least in Northern Va, for young people.

A.A. is now suppose to be turned into a dance club so someone won't drink?
Right

Maybe it's time one should learn to be a contribution, instead of looking for one.

Sounds great that's just the 7th Tradition "Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting." declining outside contributions.

Who wants to learn that Tradition it goes against what we are told and taught by sponsors.

Who wants to apply that Tradition to themselves? that's call responsibility.

What A.A. wants to even learn the Traditions? especially if they been around a while.

I only ask because that's why a lot of people are part of the MG. They have outstanding fellowship. They keep each other sober by doing things together. And no AA is not supposed to be turned into some dance club, smart a$$...I used that as an example of fellowship. Some young people in AA getting sober crave that fellowship and social network. For some young alcoholics that's a big part of their sobriety along with working the steps.

Fellowship or Club?

Yeah, and that would suggest that I should be taking personal responsibility for my part, within the A.A. fellowship...and that would suggest work... Hummm... I can tell everyone here to practice the Traditions (while I do nothing to help solve this ever growing cancer) or I can commit to showing up once a month for Area level service work, while continuing to guide Newcomers through the 12 steps... No, I'd rather judge and break down those who are breaking their backs to make a positive difference, while I decide if I'm going to put that much needed dollar bill in the basket... Of course, I'll need to drink my third cup of coffee that the group has offered to me for free (because I deserve it), before I make such a decision... No, I want to keep my much needed dollar too.

When it speaks of being self supporting through our own contributions, it's not just talking about financial support. Every group is supported by its service members, in various ways. One of those ways is to do so at the Area level. That is where you will find Midtown. That is where they are making your decisions for you. On several occasions, many of us have witnesses a few Midtown Members represent themselves as Intergroup Rep's for meetings that we have never seen them at before and they vote in their midtown agenda, through that A.A. meetings vote. If your meeting isn't represented, how do you know if your meeting isn't being used like that?

It's this simple... If you are not part a working solution, you are part of this growing problem.

I understand a craving, and there is usually something wrong with it.
Are we Talking about Alcohol?
Are we talking about A.A ?
or are we talking about a social club?
Why not start your own CLUB and have dances?

Get real, there are other young people in AA besides Midtown. Just go to St. Luke's on Sundays or Wednesdays or the Del Ray Acceptance meeting on Friday night and I'm sure there are countless others. Check out the Westside Club or the Dupont Circle Club or Rockville Metro Club or the Unity Club. All the sober clubs put on dances and events and talent shows, etc. I got sober and did ALL the fun stuff ... retreats, beach houses, Sessions, coffee before the meetings, celebration dinners, the works. And I did it all without Midtown!

One can do what ever they want. In A.A.
if the Traditions is a OUGHT, and if they cannot do the oughts one should not call them selfs an A.A. group. If you don't know the Traditions maybe the newcomer can help you with them, he or she is not conditioned and knows of no distinctions.
A simple suggested program screwed up by th S.S.

I wouldn't tell that person to "get real". That person has only brought up a point that I'm certain many more have thought. They have been conditioned and they are experiencing fear because the source of that conditioning is being compromised by truth. Allow them to ask their questions, and then answer them respectfully. If you want to help them, do so attractively.

The Traditions of A.A. tells us directly from A.A. "not this sponsor crap" what A.A. IS and is NOT, what A.A. does and does not do.
Its as simple as that.

There are others in Northern Va. I'm not so young any more but I know Unity Club in Falls Church has dances, sports, ski and scuba trips, and other activities (they used to anyway). I also was a member of a great sober beach house at Rehoboth that had nothing to do with Midtown. I'll try to find some other information as well. This is something where we could make a big, fast difference.

I do agree we're a fellowship, not a recreation club, but common sense ought to tell us that if people can't find anything fun to do with their new sober friends they're a lot more likely to go back to where they used to have fun and we know what that means.

DCC is right.

Please everyone, continue with more solutions.

I apologize for saying "get real". You are right. I just get frustrated that some people think Midtown is the only group that does "fun" stuff. (If you consider paying $ directly to the hierarchy under the guise of finaincially supporting your group's next event "fun".)

I do agree with (blank) above that finding good alternatives to Midtown is extremely important. Members are unlikely to be inclined to give up something that many of them like if there is no reasonable alternative.

Obviously, the fear of losing their social network, boyfriend or girlfriend and possibly living arrangements will make many react in a hostile fashion. That probably isn't the underlying feeling that many have.

Let's work on this!

I noticed Shawn has a new name today, probably didn't like being known as Renee/Shawn, guess he prefers "upurbutt." At least we know where his head is!!

DCC thank you...That is the information I was asking for. It is nice to know that there are options besides midtown where you can get real sobriety and have fun.

(Blank) who posted this: " I wouldn't tell that person to "get real". That person has only brought up a point that I'm certain many more have thought. They have been conditioned and they are experiencing fear because the source of that conditioning is being compromised by truth. Allow them to ask their questions, and then answer them respectfully. If you want to help them, do so attractively."

Thank you...

"I apologize for saying "get real". You are right. I just get frustrated that some people think Midtown is the only group that does "fun" stuff. (If you consider paying $ directly to the hierarchy under the guise of finaincially supporting your group's next event "fun".)"

Some people might not even know what is outside of midtown :( If that's the only group they know.....I know for me I need to be around active people who are doing things and not just going to meetings then going home because I will be sure to drink. I have to keep my life full and not just of AA but of activity. Fellowship and working the steps is a big part of my sobriety. I know many who feel the same way.

I know that there are young people's groups in No. Virginia who would welcome people with open arms. Most of them are well aware of Midtown and can offer a lot of support and fellowship for anyone who seeks to find AA groups where the Traditions are something to aspire to.

They have many activities and lots of fellowhip!

It is out there! And without the pressure and fear you may have experienced in Midtown.

I think this is a crucial piece of this situation. SOOOOO many young people are drawn to Midtown and stay there (perhaps even despite their discomfort with the group's practices or reputation) precisely because of the activities, fellowship, and fun Midtown cultivates.

It's one of the things I absolutely admire about Midtown--their ability to keep putting on fun events. (I think their motives and their financial means to do these events are the turd in the punchbowl, but that's not to say that it couldn't be done in a way that has integrity.)

DCC, exexex and anonymous11,

you might want to get your facts straight..
his son was at his funeral. As was his brother and sister. His mother died some years ago, so she was unable to attend the services.
Also, he was not living with a 19 year old girl, but I am sure you all will keep playing your crazy game of telephone and pass on more gossip.
I just think it's kinda funny all the things people say based only in gossip! What facts do you really have to back up anything that you people say?
Just wondering?
Here's an idea for you...GET A LIFE!
Maybe if you spent a little more time focusing on helping other drunks get sober, and less time on pointing the finger at others you might live a life not filled with resentment.

One can't change the stripes on a tiger. The Midtown members will go down fighting.

His Brother (Jim) was motivated to take out a $30,000 Home Equality Credit Line Loan on his house, so Mike could receive "Alternative Treatments". I wonder if that was the last person Mike squeezed for money or do you think he was able to fit a couple more in before he died? True to the end, he was. True to the end.

Remaining Teachable, your apology is accepted and I understand the frustrations going on and do not wish to make them any worse.

YOU "Saying that A.A. is my Home Group is a cope out. That's the voice of someone with little or no Area level experience."

You need to explain to me, what more is there than one drunk talking to another about the Big Book and 12X12.!
I am not into tell others I believe that they have to discover it for them self's and it starts with asking not telling and has nothing to do with following it's discovering.

After 27 years in A.A. and hundreds of friends all around the world, I see how the kinds keep turning things and make them more complex than what it really is, they try hard to control and enjoy at the same time which is a great obsession in itself .
.
I personally experienced the Clancy Pacifica group clan, Johnny H Group clan and the Dog on the roof group clan, all that match the descriptions of the Midtown group clan , with one thing in common, Heavy sponsorship system and one home group. After Chuck C died Johnny and Clancy started the Home Groupie fad.

Listen instead of react here for one second.

If you can show others how the Traditions work, in order, without using them in the legalistic sense, like most do, they and you will see for themselves.

If you tell them, you will be no better than them.

Use the broad version in the 12X12
Beware a lot of the things you " may" be doing and may not be within the Traditions either, so keep an open mind and with a little luck we may all come around.
God Bless good luck

I got a call from a midtown member last week looking to get out, I get many of these. He told me he was pressured into going to Mike Q's funeral. He never met Q. Although they told him that since Q started the group that he is responsible for his sobriety so therefore, he should feel obligated to go to his funeral.

They call themselves AA, we know different.

(blank), I don't believe I said Edward Quinones' children did not attend his funeral. I said I had not heard that. As far as his living with a 19 year old girl, I heard that independently from three different people who were in a position to know. So as far as I'm concerned the vote on that is 3-1 in favor. Whether that's true or not, I have heard from many people that he had sex with numerous teenaged girls, perhaps hundreds, over the years when he was 45 -63 years old.

It would be safe to say that he lived with a 19 yr old within the last 4 years..I think she dumped him shortly after Paris. She may be 20 or 21 now..Wow that makes it better..she wasn't living with him until his death..What a huge mistake..We got the dates wrong.Let's see he would have been 60 or 61 then, when he lived with her? Oh it's OK then..give me a break How honorable for his family to come to the funeral..they barely spoke to him until he got very sick. He used to speak horribly about his poor son! It's so intresting that if anyone in the MT group has problems with their family they always blame and say that "They are sick and toxic to my recovery." I've seen beautiful young girls shut out their families after being brainwashed by the group. Except when to do so would financially profit the group..So who is sick? Also a reliable source at Avery Road says that they are investigating a recent occurance where a few Midtown members brought a meeting in, under another name, and harassed a young girl and assigned her a sponsor. Midtown was barred from Avery Road but are coming through H & I(Carol V. from Midtown) under a different name. Just gave the piece to Pat Collins..stay tuned. The only way to keep this going is through the press. AA General Services, WAIA, and AA as a whole still refuses to really take any action. CFG is trying but the media is the only way. It is unfortunate! The US constitution has had to be ammended several times. We need to ammend some Traditions..Only an opinion

Betsy, thanks for your thoughts. The first person who told me about the 19 year old was a staunch defender of Midtown, trying to prove he didn't sleep with underage females - his live in girlfriend was 19! She dumped him? Good for her.

Anyway, I agree with your thought that maybe some change in AA Traditions is called for. Or thinking generally. As we all know changing even the tiniest thing in our program probably *is* harder than amending the US Constitution.

But I think our program needs to think long and hard and figure out why this outlaw group shouldn't operate as an AA group. Because as the general public learns about the sexual abuse and even child molestation, and the other abuses, they aren't going to react very favorably when AA claims we're just safeguarding our Traditions or spiritual anonymity in allowing it to do these things under our good name. I also believe that, even though we are a religious nation, they won't appreciate any protestations from AA that we only prayed to God to heal the evil at Midtown, but thought it was unnecessary to take any action ourselves.

I mean, right now an al Qaeda terrorist cell could claim they are an AA group. And after all, they don't drink and they do pray every day, so...

I really don't want the government passing laws to oversee and/or regulate our fellowship, but I think that will inevitably happen if AA as a whole continues to pretend it doesn't care and simply does nothing. Because people won't stand for this situation to continue.

have to say, I am disapointed at some of the name calling, I asked a question and was called in a reply simple mided?
other names I have seen in a back lash as Nazi and the like? what for? Freedom of speach is a gift, and some would call a right. but that was unnessisary.
name calling with in the blog shows gross imatuirity, retaliation is not nessisary.
speak your own truth please. If you find it nessisary to ridicule some one elses truth you may just be ridiculing your own.

(blank)had much to say, but ask your self did Mike Q spend time with his son, his family BEFORE he was diagnosed? was he really close to his kids, his family? All I say is look at the FACTS, what did he do, how did he participate in there lives, how did he influence his kids, family etc. ?? ever? what do you know of his kids? REally? what do you really know? why doesnt some one ask the kids what it was like bing Q's offspring?
so many are worried about them selves, not once have I heard any thing about his own kids or family. I can imagine how q's kids would feel, Mike spending all this time with AA kids and not having the time to spend with his own kids! how pathetic!
an blank calls me simple minded!???

And..It's not just the Midtown Group. There are many in the Pacific Group and other sub-cults in AA that think they are crazy and second-guessing themselves. This is the beginning of a big story for the national media and all of AA. Trust me..the media is not finished..Wait until they get a hold of the Pacific group. That is why I think AA, as a whole should ammend some Traditions. AA, as a whole, should take action now!
Just another opinion.

Betsy, I think you'll agree that when the media gets hold of a good story they do not let go - they have a field day. And what's better than a sensational sex scandal involving children? And a conspiracy too? Involving a respected institution?

exexex, I agree, the name calling is pretty disappointing here. On the other hand, it is very revealing of character and I believe it helps show the character of the issue quite well and of those participating. Clearly, those exhibiting the name calling abuse don't have the benefit of being able to think ahead, or alternatively can't help but give in to their emotions even when it works against their interest. Does that remind of us of anything?

Wait until the financials come out along with more stories about sex..and the blatant deceit by MT, posing as another group to get in Avry Road to, yet again, try to recruit another young girl. They are making stupid mistakes. Desperation is my take.

It just occured to me, MT will say "We aren't the Midtown Group we are from ie. Promises on Monday Night." That will be there way to get out of this one. Except that Avery now has a list of all of their meetings. Hopefully they won't even use H7I anymore and just depend on their alumnae and others that go to Avery on a regular basis for meetings. Who knows maybe H & I will soon become extinct.

OUR GREAT PROGRAM PART...The Twelve Traditions...HAS COME TO MEAN LIFE ITSELF TO ME

Bill w. Stated the traditions were in the hearts of people long before the were put on paper for the traditions are the principles in writing, the applications of the steps.
THE TRADITIONS, as written , define for me clearly and precisely how to get well and stay well. They tell me who God is, what He does, and where He functions. They show me what spirituality is and how I may better seek and find it. They clarify what anonymity means.
Perhaps most important of all, they point out the path, the path towards humility. It is helpful that this path is not described bluntly; rather it is whispered in each Tradition where one has to be listening .As I look back, I can remember when I honestly asked myself what do the steps have to do with my drinking problem , today the answerers did come and today the traditions showed me precisely the path to emotional sobriety
Tradition One tells us that "Our common welfare should come first..." Not second or fourth or tenth, but first. Why? Because "personal recovery depends upon AA unity." So. I learn that after the Twelve Steps have been digested, my group, my AA, comes first; not myself, you understand, but my AA group or groups. My own recover--my most prized possession, since it means life itself--depends upon my group's unity.
I am told how to stay well in Tradition One, and to my surprise, it dawns on me that I have received the first gentle whisper which nudges me along the path of humility.
Tradition Two tells me who God is, where He is, and what He does. It says, "For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority...a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience." God expresses Himself in a specific location--my conscience. This is good news to me. I have wondered where and who God was and what He did. Now I understand what was meant, long ago, by the command, "Be still and know that I am God."
In the last half of Tradition Two and I find the second gentle whisper toward humility: "Our leaders [you and I] are but trusted servants; they do not govern." I love the clarity and force of that simple word "but." As a leader I am but a trusted servant; I need not govern. Thank God! I have been a dubiously trusted leader who felt that he must govern for too long; now I may be relieved of all of that. As God may express Himself in my conscience, I am His and your trusted servant, who governs only me!
Tradition Three tells me that "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking." To have a desire to stop anything is new to me. So I receive the third gentle whisper toward humility. As I hear and feel these gentle whispers I settle more and more each day to life size, as "Life comes to be for free and for fun."
Tradition Four brings me clearly and simply into my own right. It says, "Each Group should be autonomous, except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole." You and I are autonomous. Individually and collectively, we may do as we wish, we are unrestricted. . .except when we step on someone else's toes Thus the fourth gentle whisper toward humility says to me, "Brother, the common welfare comes first for truly spiritually selfish reason that our own recovery depends upon in its continued existence."
Tradition Five defines in clear terms my only reason for existence. There is no other for me: "Each group has but one primary purpose. . .to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers." There is my answer. I need purpose--and I have it! I must carry the message to the alcoholic who does not know the way out. So I say to myself, "Thank God for alcohol and for the un-recovered drunk!" And I hear a fifth gentle whisper toward humility deep within which says, "At long last you have come to realize that service to others is all that you have to offer in this life!"
Tradition Six clarifies the spiritual side of this program. It says, "An AA group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary spiritual aim." I'm glad to know this, because now I can be on guard. I have a primary spiritual aim which money, property and prestige can bust wide open and devour. I hear a sixth gentle whisper toward humility which says, "your primary spiritual aim is to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers!" In the role of a trusted servant, I must follow the instructions of a loving authority who lives in the depths of my soul. It says, "In all reverence carry to the sick alcoholic the message that I have given you."
Tradition Seven shows me how to obtain peace of mind and how to regain my self-respect. At long last I understand the inner peace that comes from being responsible for myself, and to myself. Tradition Seven says, "Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions." What relief that is! No longer do I need to wait for contributions. I am now free to give contributions.
Tradition Eight gives to me, a professional man, the very keynote of humility: "Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers." I know the professional life; I am in it up to my very ears; I love it. But I know one other thing, too: in my life of service there is absolutely no room for professionalism. In AA I am an ordinary human being with no more skills than anyone else.
Tradition Nine astonishes me by stating, "AA as such ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve." You see, in the past, I have been so well organized (or so I thought) that I almost died from it! I was frightened at first to find that I needed to be in a group that wasn't organized. But in AA I am free to be myself as I find myself at the minute, and here I find another whisper toward humility: I can be on service boards or committees, and I can be a trusted servant who is directly responsible to you, my fellow AA's.
Tradition Ten pleases me very much. I read it daily with a joyful smile: "Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Just think, as an AA I need never be drawn into public controversy. I don't have to worry about being right. Never again! I don't have to fight anymore. I've had enough of controversy.
God love our good co-founder, Bill, for taking it easy on my befuddled brain. He held off giving me Tradition Eleven until I could hear and digest Tradition Ten. I read: "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films." Never again do I have to promote a single thing. . .I am free to be myself. I am free to believe what I believe. I am free to say what I believe in my own way. And I hear a whisper (number eleven) deep within that says, "The way to humility is to realize that you need to maintain personal anonymity!" It doesn't say that I have to, or that I should, or that I must; it says I need--to maintain anonymity, as I need the very food and water and air that keeps me alive.
And so Tradition Twelve comes into view. "Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles above personalities." In wondering about this anonymity business. Now I know. Anonymity means that I am only Joe. I am just a guy like you. You and I are equal. There are no class distinctions. I am not a professional man; I am just Joe. The weather way up there on the peak of "prestige and gain" was bitter cold. . .down here in the world of anonymity, it is warm and balmy. I can shake hands with you and look you straight in the eye and say, "Hi, my name is Joe." I am just one guy. No more. No less. I am one of the grains of sand that goes to make up our great beach of AA. Without me as a grain of sand, without each of you as a grain of sand, there would be no AA beach. Without the beach of AA there would be no you and no me.
So I hear the last and best whisper of all. It says "ever reminding us to place principles above personalities." I smile a deep inward smile. Day after day I come to know that our common welfare comes first, that my God is a living authority located inside of me, that I am His un-governing, trusted servant who is dedicated to the spiritual activity of carrying the message in complete anonymity to the alcoholic who still suffers.
I smile because in my organization I am unorganized. I smile because I need not be a professional who has opinions that he must cram down your throat. I smile because I can at last be myself, and if I don't attract anyone at least I won't promote anyone.
But mainly, I smile because you--all of you in AA--have given me the opportunity to fight for the principles rather than my or your personality.

Someone who doesn't even have enough integrity to use a screen name accuses me of not getting my facts straight. Perhaps he/she should review what I said. Last week someone said Q's children did not attend his funeral. What I said was that if they didn't attend, it may have been because they didn't know about it because the family members I was in touch with didn't know about any services being scheduled as of that time. As we now know, services had not occured as of then. I don't know if these family members went to the funeral or not because I will not call them just to dig up dirt. My facts are straight.
So tell me, did I have his real name wrong? Did they use his real name at the funeral or did he continue living the lie even in death? Was his son's family at the funeral? Was his son sober? I know that Q's son has rejected AA because of how his father rejected him and that has hurt him deeply. How's that for reaching out to the suffering alcoholic? What about his other offspring? Were they there? Did anyone tell his son about how much Q's death had helped them?

Interesting and lengthy.. I smile because i have worked hard to achieve my 18yrs of sobriety. I smile because I am a productive member of society. I have melded in the stream of life. I have ceased fighting alcolhol. I have been guided and protected by a spirit. I can goven in my job and not let my ego get in the way. I cam mother at home and keep and open-mind. I can change my mind and not feel ashamed. I can stand up for what I belive is right even if I stand alone. I am a whole person. I feel balanced in my life and I seem to fit in wherever I go. I am happy I don't depend on AA for my life. I have AA as a part of my life.

There is nothing better than hearing someone who is being true to thy self

THE TRADITIONS truly are the applications of the steps.

The TRADITIONS are the principles in writing for Alcoholics Anonymous only, they belong to no other.

THE TRADITIONS do not need a principal to administer them to anyone but ones self, if willing.

THE TRADITIONS is the experience of A.A., not your experience, nor mine, but "OF A.A." for people who want to be a part of A.A. not just in or around.
Give them a try, live them.

Remember they don't have to be administered by some "service person" or proclaimed sponsor they are freely given in Alcoholics Anonymous.

Please S.S. don't make this complicated too.

Remember the first blog title here?
Members make up the group.

Warning the Traditions maybe a hazard to controllers.
No ill effects have been reported on ones trying to be true to thy self.

DCC suggested we change the Traditions.

A Tradition is called a Tradition for a reason not an excuse!!

The Traditions were wrote for spiritual unity purposes. Thats why many don't understand them.

The worst way to use the Traditions is in a legalistic manor meaning not spiritual.

If the Traditions are being used in a legalistic way, it's a guaranteed that "ONE" person or group has control issues.

Use the traditions of A.A. freely and for what they were meant for. The "preservation " OF A.A. not some group.

The Traditions are the references of A.A. what it use to be like, not what it's like now!!!!!

Want to know about any place? Learn their Traditions.

We all know about the TRADITIONS of the police department? don't we?
Why would one want to change a Tradition?

All I can think of, is the ones that can't be true to thy self won't need to change themselves if they can changed the TRADITION.
Think again about that, its good to look back if one is lucky to see, it may even be their greatest asset. Our primary purpose is clear and so is our Traditions.

Sorry just can't say enough when it's A.A. and not someone or something else in A.A.

[Also a reliable source at Avery Road says that they are investigating a recent occurance where a few Midtown members brought a meeting in, under another name, and harassed a young girl and assigned her a sponsor. Midtown was barred from Avery Road but are coming through H & I(Carol V. from Midtown) under a different name]

True! I was surprised when I first heard they were banned from Avery road. I thought to myself No they're not, they still take meetings in there. Does not surprise me.. There are Midtown members who are actually starting to raise questions and some who want to leave.

Perhaps if your WAIA is not concerned about how Midtown is handling the H&I Committee (under their umbrella), as well as the controversy they are causing for WAIA, then it would seem to me they really do not care that Midtown is dragging them through the mud. I am very active in Area 16, I can't imagine our Area Assembly or Intergroup putting up with any of this. I suggested before, start another Intergroup. Maybe that would get their attention!!

Another guy that is trying to leave Midtown told me the other day that he wanted to call promises his home group but he was not allowed. He was told that Promises is a Midtown meeting so he must call his home group Midtown.

Now when Midtown members are voting at WAIA, they use the names of all of their meetings such as Promises. So they have a group rep for Promises, but its not their home group?

More evidence of cultish behavior and defiance of AA traditions, this of course is because they are not AA.

In regard to the Dickinson v Sendelback case, Sendelback has not changed her position regarding appointing a "best interests" attorney for the child. She wants a "Nagle v. Hooks" attorney. The difference is a best interests attorney represents the child in the case as a whole and fully participates in the case including making recommendations for custody and visitation (now called access). A Nagle v Hooks attorney's only role is to decide whether to waive the child's privilege to allow the child's Shrink or therapist to testify. They have no ongoing role in the case. I suspect that Sendelback thought a best interests attorney would likely side against her but that the child's therapist will testify in her favor. What I have often seen in these types of cases is that one side has picked the therapist, cultivated a relationship with the therapist including creating negative ideas about the other side and then has kept the other parent away from the therapist.
I hope to look through the file next week and learn more but for now I'm off to a recovery convention in San Antonio to see my friends from around the world, all of whom got clean and stay clean without Midtown or other cults. In my fellowship, Midtown would have been dealt with and taken off the meeting lists long ago due to their tradition violations.

Thank you "anonymous 11" for what you wrote, you seem to have legal know how. Have fun on your trip. Would like to hear more of your thoughts after you review the file.

Thank you "anonymous 11" for what you wrote, you seem to have legal know how. Have fun on your trip. Would like to hear more of your thoughts after you review the file.

"It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also....As we saw it, our wrath was always justified."

pg 90, _Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions_

"Finally, we begin to see that all people, including ourselves, are to some extent emotionally ill as well as frequently wrong, and the we approach true tolerance and see what real love for our fellows actually means. It will become more and more evident as we go forward that it is pointless to become angry, or to get hurt by people who, like us, are suffering from the pains of growing up."

No one comes into AA as portrayed in these reports. There are no virgins in AA. There are no nice boys that drank too much.

It takes years of recovery to become sensitive, kind and self sacrificing.

I've researched cults to the doctorate level. Many of the personal testimonies on those midtown group myspace informational sites say it all, to the point and truthfully.
The unfortunate thing is any cult member who see's it will be in denial to the degree that they would want to get rid of it and keep others from seeing it!
-20 year cult survivor-

Thank you, resentments, for the passage from the 12x12. I read an earlier post that referenced PAGE 449. But it appears as if the anti-Midtown people just won't let go and let god. Talk about your pitbulls!!

From reading the posts, it appears that Midtown is not unique in its variation from AA guidelines. The Pacific Group and many others around the country are doing the same thing. My sponsor tells me that "some are sicker than others." True in society as well.

I am not a Midtown supporter. But I am a member of AA. I don't condone with Midtown is doing but am keeping my side of the street clean AND putting out my hand when the Newcomer walks into one of my meetings.

resentments + troubled = midtown

Stop making excuses and rationalizations by using our literature against real A.A. members and by suggesting that it's ok to molest the children that are lured into the Midtown Cult because "There are no virgins in AA." and "There are no nice boys that drank too much." When are you Cultists going to wake up!? You should go back to your dimwitted lies that you have been using, over and over. At least then we know it's a Midtown Cult poster and not someone who is simply naive and confused.

No on is supposed to "tolerate" a group where it's an institutional behavior to prey upon 14-15-16 year olds by men in their 30's-40's-50's and 60's. Whoever suggests that A.A. members should not be disturbed by that behavior, or that A.A. members should accept and tolerate the horrible abuses that will continue (and will get far worse) are a direct contributor to this problem

aaMember, its good you're keeping your side of the street clean. I just hope your daughter, sister, mother, niece or close friend does find themselves drawn into the cult activities so well disguised as AA fun some day. Enough and I mean ENOUGH people have been sacrificed by those unwilling to stand up and say it - "ENOUGH."

"keeping my side of the street clean and putting out my hand when the Newcomer walks into one of my meetings." is what has helped the Midtown Cult grow as large as they have, while that have continued to exploit as many adolescents as they have. While you were keeping your side of the street clean and putting out your hand when the Newcomer walks into one of your meetings, Midtown was running all of the Institutional AA meetings, where most of the really messed up newcomers are. Because Midtown is there and you are not, they never even make it to your meeting. Keep up the bad work. I'm sure that some 15 year old that being pressured into having sex with someone that's older than her father tonight (so she can keep sober) is extremely grateful for your utter lack of participation in her and this travesty.

Dang, people!! Get a grip. This stuff has been going on for 20+ years. Where the heck have you been and what were you doing about it?? This is not NEW NEWS.

But now that Marc Fisher opened up a Comment Board everyone wants blood and is self-righteous and pompous. Reminds me of people who sit on their butts and demand an end to the Iraq War...but still go about their day-to-day business unaffected, yet every once in a while (just to make themselves feel good) blurt out an anti-war diatribe. I can only carry the message not the alcoholic.

p.s. I'm sorry for the 15 year old who get caught up in this crap. And I can only guess that the 15 year old is extremely grateful for your participation in her and this travesty. Am I right?

WHOEVER WROTE -- "keeping my side of the street clean and putting out my hand when the Newcomer walks into one of my meetings." is what has helped the Midtown Cult grow as large as they have, while that have continued to exploit as many adolescents as they have. While you were keeping your side of the street clean and putting out your hand when the Newcomer walks into one of your meetings, Midtown was running all of the Institutional AA meetings, where most of the really messed up newcomers are. Because Midtown is there and you are not, they never even make it to your meeting. Keep up the bad work. I'm sure that some 15 year old that being pressured into having sex with someone that's older than her father tonight (so she can keep sober) is extremely grateful for your utter lack of participation in her and this travesty." -- THANK YOU!! I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF.

Defenders of Midtown unite!!

Help the Higher Tiers molest a newcomer tonight!!

Maybe if we all keep our sides of the street clean and pray, it will only be another 20 years til they stop f***ing with newcomers. Gonna go do some street cleaning and hold a candlelight vigil now.

As a member of A.A., We need to address what is going on here. A similar occurrence happen in regards to control freaks, (The weak labels as sponsors) A.A. world's service conference then came out with the A.A. pledge in 1964/65 in response to the negativity of the
news media. This negative media was a direct result of the label that was "injected" into the whole, by Clarence S. The "self proclaimed" "Father of Alcoholics Anonymous."
They new something was wrong back then, that's why thy wrote the Traditions.

The title of "HIS" promotional pamphlet in 1944 says it all.

In 1975 "AFTER BILL W PASSED ON" Clarence came forward and his followers injected the pamphlet with the A.A. name on it this time. Why? And HOW?

Look when H/I was organized by the outside sponsorship system that needed a purpose and cause inside A.A. Look at the billion dollar book industries at Amozon.com
on how to become a sponsor in a 12 step program. Then face us and say this is A.A.

H/I was organized by the outside sponsorship system, and either one of them have anything to do with the willingness of another to sober up in A.A.

A.A. is not allied and should be so set apart that if needed that it can be discarded by the groups, The million dollar question ? Does Alcoholics Anonymous groups have the courage to change knowing this?

Read the post, The easy six step way to snagging a newcomer through sponsorship before they find A.A.

Personally, I believe, such as ... that at least I have the honesty to admit that I haven't done a DAM# thing about Midtown and their practices. What about all you other alcoholics. Where were you all when notices were sent out by WAIA to the Registered Groups asking for phone duty, H&I reps, GSR reps and the like? Where were you when the monthly meetings were being held in Silver Spring? So get off my case. Look in the mirror. I have.

Clarence S claimed "HE WROTE" the first pamphlet on sponsorship in 1944.

The Big Book was first printed in 1939!!

"Connect the dots"

Whats wrong with letting someone who is able to walk, after detoxing in a hospital or institution, walk into the doors of A.A.?
Instead of demoralizing them and dragging them in?
Guilt works in religion and heavy religious sponsorship groups but not here in A.A.

Have you ever noticed "SERVICE PEOPLE"
Have attitudes?

There must be a condition attached to the unconditional love they are trying to transmit.

Ok, "aaMember" has admitted that he has done NOTHING to help with the Midtown problem. Good for him... Too bad others here will not have that depth of self honesty. Should we commend him for attempting to retard those who are DOING something about the midtown problem? No. But others will follow that lead. Alcoholism is a selfish disease. Being there for others unconditionally, in the manner in which THEY need it, runs across that self-made grain.

Re read this thread. There are AA's who have been working extremely hard to make a difference in and around WAIA and it's been people like "aaMember", "Oneforallallforone", "resentments", "troubled" and various other midtowners that have continually tried to derail their efforts. Either commit to being a part of the solution by actually having a service commitment at WAIA or get out of the way of those who are there now!!!!!!!

Mkay...

"It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us..."

Yeah. I have a story about that.

When I was in Midtown, I didn't know Mike was into teens because he was dating a 30 year-old (his beard). When I was still new, I saw that 2 15 year-old girls were engaging in some very suggestive play (in public) with two guys that were 25 and 26. I brought it up with my boyfriend, saying it was unconscionable and why weren't the girls' sponsors intervening (and I said I would call their mothers if they didn't).

So, I showed up at a meeting (one held in Lewinsville Presbyterian Church, FYI). The leader was one of the higher-ups in the group. During his lead, he stares right at me and shares that crap about resentments and being judgmental. Then he asks if I want to share. I decline. After the meeting he comes up to me to talk about my "being judgmental."

Now, I never brought the subject up with him, only with my boyfriend. This guy I never spoke to about it directed his lead at me and then "called me out" about what I said--inside a car with only my boyfriend present.

Every time I brought up the young girls dating older guys (teenagers dating guys in their 20's is the extent of what I saw for a long time), another group member would quote that EXACT passage. Whenever I objected to anything in the group--like Arno collecting disability when he wasn't disabled--I heard the same quote.

As a result, it still makes me sick to hear it used "legitimately" in regular A.A. meetings. And I will never quote that cursed passage to anyone, ever.

P.S. I went to the girls' sponsor (a woman), and she filled me in on what their mothers were like. It seemed they were actually safer with the 25/26 year-old turds than at home with their mothers, from the sound of things. And such was the case for many, many people in Midtown (sadly).

I'm sorry "XQ", but if you have a problem with some 15 year olds being molested, then the problem is in you. You have to ask yourself if you want to molest a 15 year old because we have another saying too, which is, "If you spot it, you got it"! Now, stay away from WAIA, and midtown and stop being judgmental because if God didn't want those 15 year olds to be molested, then it wouldn't have happened, right?

Lets just say for the sake of argument from the do-gooders that we didn't attract ANY ONE.

AT LEAST WE DIDN'T PROMOTE someone.

PS. That was attract not attack.

HA HAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA

OMG

I love sarcasm

Also to Another Mom:

I can only imagine what it was like for your daughter to have the people responsible for her ending up in a hospital show up to haunt that very hospital. That's HORRENDOUS to even contemplate.

I can tell you that, when I tried to get help, I kept hearing from my therapist (actually, from 2 of them) that "AA is not a cult," even though I never claimed that it was.

Then I figured out pretty quickly that they didn't have a good working knowledge of what a cult DOES anyway. I hit the library and brought in books and articles to educate my own therapist so that she could help me--which she really didn't (she was a nice lady, but...no experience with this).

Even now, I find that most people (psychology degrees or not) don't have a very functional idea of what happens in a cult and why it's so hard to even trust your own gut feelings that something is deeply, deeply wrong.

I hope your daughter gets the support she needs. In my experience, I had to make do with the resources I had, flawed as they were. It was always helpful to talk to other former members--in that, at least someone believed me and really, truly "got" what I meant about what went on there--but there was sooooo much anger that the therapeutic effect was pretty much nil.

I just wanted to say all this so that you know--and can maybe tell her--that she is NOT alone, no matter what it may feel like at times.

I wish you both the best.

Don't stop the abuse!! Stated"I'm sorry "XQ", but if you have a problem with some 15 year olds being molested, then the problem is in you."

Don't let me catch or see you or you molesting a Girl, or will need a God.
What a sick person you and your Sponsors are.

That's the most stupid comment posted here, bar none. Unfortunately, that's the general consensus, if not condensed, of most the posters, be they with Midtown or not. With that level of stupidity and sloth so readily apparent, those who have every intention of milking A.A. for what its worth, should be able to do so in less than 20 years. At which time, A.A.'s message, its effectiveness and its integrity will be utterly compromised. As a result, it would be reasonable to assume that A.A. should fall, like the Oxford Group, and like the Washingtonian Group, in under 50 years.

And it couldn't have happened without your participation, or lack thereof.

I see I touched a nerve with the mention of something really actionable (collecting disability when not disabled).

WOW...I am speechless as to where this discussion is going

Dear ?????????????????????????:

Ever heard of SARCASM? Lighten up.

up here in NY we don't have a lot of girls putting out-- maybe you horn dogs in DC wanna share the wealth?

Collecting a financial income unethically is a Midtown norm. Townties are encouraged to look up towards those who can pull it off successfully. Don't even deny this, or I'll site exact references.

Thank you for your thoughts and for sharing your experience here, XQ. As far as I'm concerned, you are one of the most important people on this blog. So don't let the sarcasm confuse the points being made here, cuz I'm not. I hear you loud and clear.

Another Mom:

Cool.

People that don't get sarcasm and think the person is being serious are IDIOTS

"Don't stop the abuse!!" is a typical non drinking idiot. You'll find walking examples, exactly like that, throughout this blog. They may not be harming these adolescences, but they ignore their screams because it doesn't have anything to do with them, and their feeling a little guilty for not stepping up to stop it (mainly because their lazy or a coward), so they try to prevent others from stepping up to stop it.

i've never seen a bigger bunch of cry babies and whiners..

ok mom's what u need to understand is what your sweet little girls did on their knees on the streets to get their fix.. AA is filled with crack w*ores.. no big news.. AA saves lives.. but your sweet little girls and boys won't become angels overnight..

if they are banging old men.. perhaps they should be getting some deeper character building at home?

they don't change from hustling a buck to virgins overnight..

the fact that many of these girls were se*ually abused under their parent's watch is something for you to clean up..

if these kids are acting out se*ually there is something in them that needs to be addressed..

Dear Interested:
All you have to do is gather some of your guy friends together (you sound like a spiritual, seeking God's will kinda bunch) and go to the local rehab proclaiming the gifts of A.A. Then tell the tweens they're selfish and self-centered if they don't drop to their knees. They'll be so scared of relapsing they'll do it. Try it! It's been tested tried and true down here. Good luck. Then when you develop a conscience and gain some maturity, females above the age of 14 might be more attracted to you.

Hello? "Don't stop the abuse" was KIDDING. Get a brain cell!

I wasn't being sarcastic. Ok, maybe I was; but only alittle. Go to any midtown meeting tonight and you'll hear these sweet catch phrases come out of no less than 2 pre-programmed mouths. If it's a larger meeting, you'll hear them come out of more pre-programmed mouths. Abusers love these sayings, as do the people who would allow these abusers to thrive. The only real difference is that the abusers know what they are doing, and why. These enablers are usually too stupid, lazy, or riddled with their own sins to know why they transmit that bullcrap.

I'm denying it. References please.

Q:I have just come to the realization that I'm addicted to feeling like a victim. I would like to know how I can truly overcome this addiction and empower myself.

A:Please keep in mind that in some cases people have to seek professional help for serious emotional issues. But if your situation isn't too severe then this will help.

You might want to read the answer to the question that I answered before yours: "How do you take control of your emotions instead of letting your emotions take control of you?" The answer to that question will help you get started because the first thing that you want do is figure out what the positive intent is.

Once you know the positive intentions of the emotions that you are experiencing, then you want uncover the secondary gain. In other words, what are you gaining from feeling and behaving the way you do?

It has been said that all behavior is useful in some context. Stop and think about that. You are benefiting in some manner as a result of being the victim. For example some people crave the attention and "pat on the back" that they get from being the victim. If you have trouble figuring out what the secondary gain is email me. al@alduncan.net

You must know what the secondary gain is because a change in behavior will not last unless the secondary gain is maintained. Find a different way to achieve the secondary gain and it will be easier for you to let go of feeling like a victim.

http://www.alduncan.net/feeling-like-a-victim.html

Reference delivered as requested.

Brice, Mike Q.'s previous right hand man, was the one that started the whole "spill the coffee on your genitals, then sue the McDonald's" fad. He used up a newcomer while doing it, by manipulating the newcomer to lie about what really happened. He helped to screw up our legal system with his bogus law suit and all he had to do was spill some coffee on his testicles, while destroying the spiritual conditioning of the newcomer that he used. He used a portion of the stolen money to take Mike Q. to Mexico, for vacation. That's where he broke his neck and back, while driving the rented jeep from the stolen money. Mike left his (then) main Lieutenant, the person most loyal to him in a debilitated Mexican Hospital, so that he could make it back to Midtown, so everyone could hear him speak... Brice appeared to wake up for a period by leaving the MG, but his conditioning ran too deep, and he returned to where his character defects could roam without confrontation.

Thanks references! The truth is so funny it hurts.

And another one.... This is a posted comment from Love and Service, on "one of those midtown hater" (myspace) sites.

We are noticing emails and comments suggesting that some people cant comment because they have no personal experience or proof of sex crimes and embezzelment. Rest assure we have plenty of evidence of such conduct. The following is an email written to one of Q's "grand pigeons" (who is now the treasurer at WAIA) regarding left over money from a trip to costa rica last year (the day after the yearly play), The Q himself responds with what to do with that money, Take a look:

Jack,

I wanted to let you know that I unexpectedly received the US Air deposit
back on my credit card. I could put $1,522 in your account tomorrow if you
want. I did not tell anyone that they would be receiving this money back as
it was factored into the cumulative amount. Last year we got the returned
deposit about 2 to 3 months after the trip and used it for Project Toronto
room rental (per Q). Thought you and Q could use this cash for this trip.
Just send me your account info (I think it is United Bank) and I will
deposit a check tomorrow.

Not too much is happening here....I have been getting lots of phone calls
which is good and have been studying (but definitley feel fear re: exam). I
paid my registration today for the last 2 sections and am going to sign up
to take Regulation at the end of January and Audit at the end of February.

The only other thing I wanted to write you is last night (the night before
Susan left for Costa), I wanted to make sure to have sex. She was
downstairs until after midnight and before she came upstairs I watched some
Cinemax (almost to stay focused). Didn't feel that great about that and
didn't want to tell you, but I was happy to have sex.

Thanks for the time and I will talk to you soon. Hope you are getting some
solid surf and I know you are having a great time.

JG

Hey John,

Looks like we need to stay five more days, me and Court see if you
can handle the plane tickets from your end and also the rental car .....use
the new money for this. Also what did you find out about France? Hopefully
that's locked in. You can deposit into my Bank of America if need be.
Thanks!

Write me back,
Mike

Cool.....got your message. He was up to some self-will, I wanted to see if
he had said anything to you. I will give you a call later...i'm back in the
office. I'm mean he can't be the only guy kissing 15 year olds while
playing truth and dare.
- Show quoted text -

Reply Forward

Jack Reid
to
More options Feb 13 (5 days ago)
i heard about that from lil robin -- sounds totally friggin cra-Z to me!
all i know is that pappa has been in on at least 2 of these things...

I know that PB, 24 hour john, Heather, and the 15 year old took part. I
know that both PB and 24 hour made out with the 15 year old. I think
Heather only kissed PB on the cheek. I found out through Alexis at Midtown.
PB was at my house yesterday helping me out and never said a word. Major
dishonesty. I talked to him after midtown and told him this is bulls##t and
this is what drinking people do. He called me later crying and saying that
he feels unsafe. I told him to read the big book. Didn't know what else to
say.....seemed like an act to me. I don't think Robin was there either. I
will find out more...I focused more on his blatant dishonesty than what
happened at T/D. JM broke up with him after midtown....either she knows
about the T/D, but it seemed like she was heading that way anyway.

Are the midtown defenders "getting" the picture yet or do you want to keep sticking your head in the sand?

That's the problem, isn't it? If they take their head out, then they're morally and ethically responsible to act accordingly. Untreated alcoholics are centered within self, which suggests, if not mandates, that they have little to no interest in acting in a manner that is centered in selfless service. Midtown will continue to grow and its knowing and unknowing defenders will not only enable this to happen, they will prevent those of us who want to help, from doing so.

To whoever said this discussion was getting crazy (my word), I agree with you. But that doesn't mean we quit.

I was going to write something long about how some people here see an avalanche of evidence that child molestation is occurring, yet all they do is criticize those who want it stopped, on the grounds that anyone who is disturbed or angry about anything, ever, has some spiritual deficiency. To wit, they then lift a quote from the Big Book.

Well, let you give my take on this:

If anyone, anywhere, sees a child being molested and DOES NOT BECOME DISTURBED, THAT PERSON IS SPIRITUALLY AND EMOTIONALLY ILL.

If anyone, anywhere, sees a child being molested and SAYS AND DOES NOTHING, that person is spiritually and emotionally ill.

If anyone, anywhere, is next to a child being molested and SEES NOTHING, that person is spiritually and emotionally ill.

My friends, the twisting and perversion of the teachings of our program by the sociopaths of Midtown is sickening. They take our program of love, faith, self caring, selflessness, service, honesty, and integrity and turn it into a pack of lies, distortions, perversions, selfishness, predatory and exploitive behavior, and sexual molestation and dominance. Midtown is not AA. Midtown is not even remotely AA. Midtown is a cancer on AA and on every member of AA.

Finally, to my Midtown co-blogger who said that as we are pit bulls attacking Midtown who won't let go, and that we should "let go and let God": It is my God's will that I help put an end to child molestation. Because my God doesn't favor child molestation. Does yours?

But Midtowners are not all powerful. To the contrary, they are weak in the same way that all people like them are weak. They put on a good show on the outside but on the inside they are panicking. They are not just lying hypocrites. They are panicking lying hypocrites. They are terrified of what is about to happen.

OK, unctuous Midtowners, anything else?

Hmmmmmm. Let me check my new preamble ... Our primary purpose is to stay sober and put an end to child molestation. Yep. It's right there.

Seriously, DCC, AA was not meant to take on such a serious and horrible crime. Your efforts to end child exploitation would be most welcome at www.missingkids.com in their Exploited Child Division.

Tell 'em AA sent ya'!

That's certainly a good idea, aaMember, seriously!

I assume you'd agree that the Big Book and our Traditions were not meant to shield child molesters. The passage quoted was taken out of context and didn't apply to someone seeing child molestation. I also assume you'd agree that just because the Preamble says nothing about ending child molestation doesn't mean that our fellowship condones it.

This behavior has happened by design at Midtown repeatedly and I don't see how so many members can treat it so lightly. I don't want to tell anyone how to do their program and there are many ways to get and stay sober. But I think we can insist that a group calling itself an AA group not be a haven for sexual predators operating under the AA name.

wow, still more name calling. how pitiful!

I do see that Mike Q's prize quote of the spiritual axiom is still widely used to exploit the new comer, victim, what ever.

that quote is to make peace with one self, not to be used to exploit some unsuspecting victim of abuse. Now Mike was notorius for saying this quote word for word - page by page to tell the victim (who walked in on him having sex with the other woman, the friends girlfriend, the wife etc) So the friend rightfuly disturbed, in order to be spiritual bowed to this perverted statement.
so the perversion will continue so long as there is this "Spritual Axiom" to use in the guise of aa and God.-- hummmm - just like the Catholic Preist I suppose?

if your mad your mad, that is allowed, and not "un" spritual. If your hurt- same applies, if your a victim - run like hell- wake up and seek immidiate counsel!

aaMember, I've looked back at your posts. I appreciate now that this has been going on for a long time - over 20 years. But this wasn't generally known and this information from Newsweek, the local TV channels, and the Washington Post is hitting a lot of people (like me) from out of the blue.

Northern Va isn't in the WAIA, despite the WA in its title, so we might have even less contact with an AA community that is associated in some way with Midtown. The Northern Va community is very large - don't know how big in comparison to Montgomery, Prince Georges, and DC but it's big, with a large number of clubs, thousands of members, and lots of activities similar to Midtown's. I have been a GSR and done other service work. I believe that Northern Va might change the balance here.

It must be discouraging if you've seen this go on for 20 years and been unable to do anything. Just having found out about this, I'm not throwing in the towel here. I believe that this problem can be solved.

Although the many underage girls who have been molested and the many older ones who were mistreated bother me a great deal, as does the use of "pigeons" as servants of sponsors, and the other economic exploitation, and the pressure on member patients to stop their medication, one thing that particularly bothers me is the perversion of our AA vocabulary, Traditions, slogans, and Big Book quotations which are are folded into the Midtown Newspeak such that the meanings are reversed. That's a reason the use of the Big Book quote this afternoon made me especially angry - yes, I'm not afraid to admit that I feel the human emotion of anger.

Language is important, and Midtown's perverted mapping of our language into its distorted belief system gives Midtown the credibility of AA while allowing the most outrageous transgressions to be conducted. The appropriation of the AA name also bothers me a great deal as this has the likelihood of damaging AA's reputation, keeping newcomers away, preventing referrals from alcoholism professionals, possibly encouraging government laws and regulations, and in general keeping the hand of AA from being there in the future for those who need it.

AA held out a helping hand to me in 1985 when I most needed it, and I truly want the hand of AA to be there for those who will need it in the future. Midtown endangers that. This is where I'm coming from.

reference delivered, very interesting! wow!

DCC, you have to understand that even though most, if not all, of the information you have read about Midtown in this blog may be new news to you, most of the information and personal stories (including the email about depositing the return deposit into Q's account) has been public knwoledge posted for a long time on the myspace websites previously referred to. So this stuff is nothing new to many here, especially the X-members. What's new is that this dialog has been going on this long between a variety of ex's, current, thinking of leaving, or never have been a Midtown members about this cancer. That is a good thing as it gives an avenue for both sides to speak. The bottom line is that "nothing changes if nothing changes." People have known for a long time what has been going on there and although have they have tried different means, still the cancer grows. Mike's passing MIGHT change that a little bit, but the cancer still grows deep and, as you can see, the denial grows even deeper. Everyone posting here feels threatenend in one way or another. That means we all are acting out of some sort of fear...either for the newcomer, or the child, or the program of AA, or the loss of their home group. All of these fears are real to each one of us. How can we overcome them, we know the differences between the anit-midtowners and the defenders....do we have any similarities? If so, is there a foundation there in which to dialog about a Solution? Just thought I would throw it out there...I'll probably get lambasted, so go ahead!!

Similarities, I have had similar thoughts. Thank you for being here. I cannot respond to this now, but I would like to later on; perhaps after I meditate on the issue further.

Why was my comment censored???

Did you use any curse words, or derogatory terms?

From the mouths of babes..I was taking my 17 year old daughter to college. I was feeling very sad and emotional. I have been sober 18 yrs but only attend a few alanon meetings at this stage of my sobriety. My daughter has never taken a drink or mind-altering substance. We discussed drinking and drugs in college and this is what she said, "Mom I am never going to start drinking..no way..I don't want to even chance having to go to AA. I realize it helped you but most of the people I've seen are wacked. They seem to use AA as an excuse to act crazy." I agree with her for the most part. Granted she has really only seen and been around Washington AA which I do think is very messed up. So kids think of it this way..If you never drink..you don't have to go to AA.

Similarities, I am hearing a lot that these problems have been known for a long time, and also that they have been posted for a long time, so in theory it's been public. But many, many members are just hearing of this.

I have no doubt that a lot of Midtowners may be uncomfortable with certain aspects of their group, and be amenable to change, and like other aspects. I'm sure there are positive aspects, although it does seem to me from what I've read, heard from others I've recently talked to and seen here, there are many aspects that are bad and for which we ought to have zero tolerance.

I have posted a number of posts above on solutions. I tend to react to the denials and rationalizations, however, as I think it's important to counter them as they come up. I'm planning to try and collect all the ideas and try and summarize and organize them, at a minimum for myself. Briefly, from memory:

1) An organized set of first person accounts - sounds like this may have been done

2) A concise, organized statement of "charges" against Midtown, for want of a better word, which could be presented to the media and to outside organizations.

3) Working groups with outside professionals and organizations to get professional opinions about this cult phenomenon, to get opinions which could be published, to network broader and outside the fellowship

4) A comprehensive list of resources (meetings, clubs, etc) as alternatives to Midtown for probably mostly young people who are interested in social activities, sports, dances, picnics, outings, ski and scuba trips, etc (there are a lot in NoVa where I live)

5) A plan to encourage and educate people to participate in WAIA (which unfortunately does not include NoVa) and a plan of action once that is done

6) A comprehensive web site for organizing activities and discussions. I haven't looked at the other sites in detail and that may already exist. this would include a confidential whistle blower and lifeline for MT members wanting to provide information or get help.

7) A set of steps for MT recovery (about a dozen I posted above, which are roughly analogues to our steps)

8) A comprehensive plan for media and GSO relations.

9) Some legal strategy or thoughts for curtailing this Midtown conduct.

10) A strategy, as you noted, for trying to work with Midtown - for establishing "diplomatic relations" and negotiations.

I am sure a lot of this has been done in one form or another already. I imagine the Marc Fisher and Newsweek articles didn't just come out of nowhere. I figure that the effort to stop Midtown abuse is now is a position to recruit many more helpers now that the word has gotten out.

So given that a lot of members are just hearing of this, and a lot of outsiders are just hearing of this, I think the situation is hopeful and the movement to remove the offending behavior can quickly pick up a lot of support.

I used a few, but I was quoting someone who posted earlier.

At this point it seems rather nonsensical to respond to such an asinine post though, so I'll leave it alone.

This is way more than a cancer here; it is a corps when service is no longer just one drunk talking to another.

It has become that a certain type going "outside" the doors of A.A. then calling them self A.A. - making fun of A.A. believing they are A.A.
when all they are is control freak sponsors and controlled babies trained "TO BE OF SERVICE" is obviously SICK

Tell A.A. what more is there than one drunk FREELY talking to another?

What wrong with being kind and giving another back to themselves?
The outside Sponsorship System is the downfall of just one drunk talking freely another - It's no longer free there's a condition.

Screw A.A. lets all Join the corps they say.
A.A. needs to cut them lose and if they don't come back GREAT.
And if they do come back STOP the meeting and get it back to the A.A. message
Not the Self proclaimed sponsorship crap and "their job propaganda crap"
A.A. works and A.A. works good, period.

Learn the TRADITIONS of A.A. before a sponsor wants to learn about you. GET IT

Question marks, I agree with you that AA is basically one drunk talking to another, and also a group of drunks sharing one at a time in a meeting. To me, this is the heart of the program and the part that makes it somehow miraculous. This worked for me and worked well.

I'm not exactly sure what the sponsorship issue is here. But I agree that no sponsor should have some sort of military authority over a sponsee. At least that would have never worked for me and IMO there are some inherent dangers and drawbacks. Most groups I've been in have enough mental health and checks and balances to keep the relationships safe.

To DCC
Thanks for "BEING" here

Theres many substitutions for faith. But there is none for God.

The superstition of sponsorship leads others away from the group as a whole, usually before they can really get there. Then it's no longer one drunk just talking to another, now creating a distinction between drunks. It's called the Big boy talking to a Little Boy.

Sponsorship is a distinction and there should be "NO DISTINCTIONS AMONGST US"

That's why A.A. works great and others (sponsors)just try to claim it.

DCC,
It was really was rude of me to "assume" you knew the Traditions which could easily cause a distinction between us. I will show you Tradition 12 on pg 187 in the 12X12
"Moved by the spirit of anonymity, we try to give up are natural desires for personal distinction as A.A. members BOTH among fellow alcoholics and before general public."

The prior Tradition 11 on 183 " This Tradition is a constant and practical reminder that personal ambition has no place in A.A."

Thanks again for being here.

I'm not a big fan of sponsorship as many people practice it. However, it seems to me that most everyone needs some help when they first come in. Meanwhile, while sponsorship is practically universal across groups in my experience, it is practically unheard of, again in my experience, for male sponsors to sponsors young females, and to have sex with them, and to have them perform as free servants. So I don't see sponsorship per se as the problem with Midtown.

In 1985-90 I went to a 12x12 meeting every week where we read aloud one chapter per week and discussed it. That was more than 2 full passes of the entire book each year for five years so I am well acquainted with the opinions in the book.

I'm one of those people who strongly believes, as you certainly seem to, that there should be no Big Boy talking to Little Boy in any AA recovery context. I do not take anything written in the big book or the 12x12 as gospel, but simply as the opinions of those who wrote them, albeit informed by a great deal of experience with the program.

I certainly have no objection to anyone professing faith in God and most people I know do. As I've said above, I am an agnostic. I'm happy that AA allows me complete freedom to believe what I do without anyone trying to convince me of their beliefs, and this has worked well now for nearly 23 years.

And yes, I'm happy you're in on this discussion here too. I figure a lot has gone wrong with Midtown and, beyond anything else, we need to make sure that the hand of AA is available and that it is a helping hand, not that of a predator.

I never heard of the term, "Sponsorship System" before this thread. Drop the rock already!! ??????????... We got your point, the last 30+ times. We're trying to come up with solutions to the Midtown cancer that's feeding off of A.A., and you keep throwing rocks in the process. Seriously, you've done more to distract from our progress here than Midtown members have, and their Cult's about ready to fall down or take off. You're helping it to take off!

From now on, please, everyone else, when a midtown member attempts to throw a monkey wrench into this or when someone else makes another whack comment, please, please, just walk past it and continue with allowing those who have been hurt, to speak freely about it. If you want to contribute to the solution, please do, but let the other people fly about, undisturbed. Bird won't listen to you and neither will they.

The Midtown group in no way violated or perverted any of AA's Traditions. Tradition 4 for example is negated by Traditions 1 and 2. AA has leaders who are but trusted servants and if they bothered to govern, the midtown scandal would have been dealt with long ago.
What a disgraceful case of negligence.

DCC
"Everyone need help" and there is a need to associate with our fellow, One drunk talking to another, period, NOT this distinction stuff of the Sponsorship System that tries to SALE YOU there idea.
The ideas of A.A. in the A,B,C's is precise and clear what is B?
Many are just conditioned to the System that is another dependency that is turning sick like the alcohol did.
I am not trying to tell you this, I know better than that, How can you tell anyone something if they are dependent on it, you can't and should not.
Thats what makes A.A. a discovery program for ones self. It's hard to Join anything
if you are following. It's like tring to love and hate at the same time
IMPOSSIBLE
A.A. "of itself" "works" and A.A. works good

(We're here to discuss midtown) stated
"I never heard of the term, "Sponsorship System" before this thread."

"Wish I never herd about Midtown either."

This is about midtown, as it FELL FOR THE S.S.

Learn their traditions! "Where it came from" not what you think it should be.
The trick is not to confuse it with A.A.
One drunk freely talking to another a gift freely given. Not a system that operates out of fear if you don't.

Blank Posted by: | August 29, 2007 03:51 PM
"Dear Interested:
All you have to do is gather some of your guy friends together (you sound like a spiritual, seeking God's will kinda bunch) and go to the local rehab"

WE DON"T PROMOTE or implicate A.A. IN ANY WAY.
WHY NOT LET THEM COME TO US (Willingness)RATHER THAN HUNT FOR THEM SO YOU CAN BE THERE SPONSOR? You did say they were already in rehab, didn't you.

DCC, Stated "I am well acquainted with the opinions in the book"

The Traditions are not opinions, They were not written subjectively like the steps but objectively from A.A's experience.
Maybe thats why we just can't get it here.

Congrats Marc Fisher, you're the new Michael Moore! A one sided story to promote your own ego.

The only difference is that Michael Moore at least slants the facts. You just rely on rumor and innuendo.

You crossed the line from journalism to promoting your own agenda.

Timewilltell/?????, I understand you are trying to get people to understand your point, and you can see some of us are trying. BUT you are suggesting changes to a well established system of sponsorship in AA. Your points may well be something for all to meditate on, it isn't dealing with the REALITY that Midtown is agressively going into hospitals (even the ones they have been banned from) trying to recruit newcomers. Reality must be dealt with REAL actions, not the concepts (right or wrong) you keep trying to explain to everyone. That's simply not a solution to what is happening with Midtown TODAY. Thank you for your insight but please try to understand, we're not trying to "GET" your concept here because concepts won't address the aggressive, predatory behavior by MT. Its too broad, vague, and beyond the scope of what we need to focus on here. Thank you.

BlanK Posted by: | August 30, 2007 10:30 AM

You don't understand A.A. has nothing to do with anything outside of a meeting.
Don't confuse A.A. with the operations of the outside sponsorship system operating in outside hospitals and Institutions.

Midtown has already confused itself with AA when it is not, we're trying to deal with the actions of Midtown here.

(BLANK )Posted by: | August 30, 2007 10:30 AM
"a well established system of sponsorship in AA."

You said it, now if you can just get it

The TRADITIONS of A.A. CONDEMNS the SYSTEMS
WAYS, Thats why so many are scared to look and understand the Traditions.

Take a closer look at the Traditions keeping an open mind.

(Blank) Posted by: | "August 30, 2007 10:39 AM
Midtown has already confused itself with AA when it is not, we're trying to deal with the actions of Midtown here."

Is midtown in the A.A. directory ?
Is the sponsorship system promoted thought out A.A

Many are confused when the label sponsor is not even mentioned in the Big Book. Yet promote and raised.
YA BUT

There's NO POINT arguing about sponsership systems...

No one in AA is going to give up their sponsers, no matter how many times you post a new message about it here.

Moving on...!

LET IT START WITH LOOKING AT OUR SELFS INSTEAD OF OTHERS, IN A.A OR NOT!

GOT IT ? if not I hope you will get it.

A good start is the Traditions anyone want to argue abut them too?

Grateful X Midtowner Quote
"No one in AA is going to give up their sponsers"

You are now speaking for everyone in A.A.?
yet no one of A.A.
Are you A.A's new sponsor?

As I stated, these diatribes are pointless.

It sounds like you're trying to change the subject here.

The subject of the debate on this blog is the Midtown Group, and that's what will be discussed here.

This is how midtown got to where it is.

As an X midtown member you maybe still conditioned? seek outside help
God bless and keep coming back

Why are you so invested in changing the subject of the discussion here? It sounds very suspicious....hmm.

You can say what you want, but I won't respond anymore. That's enough trolls for one day!

Cut and paste

LET IT START WITH LOOKING AT OUR SELFS INSTEAD OF OTHERS, IN A.A OR NOT!

Can I order a pepperoni pizza with olives?

Cut and paste

LET IT START WITH LOOKING AT OUR SELFS INSTEAD OF OTHERS, IN A.A OR NOT!

GOT IT ? if not you will get it.

A good start is the Traditions anyone want to argue and abut them too?

A established system..Yes! A well established system..Questionable? I anticipate that all 12 step programs may soon go by the wayside..There are many treatment facilities that have started using other treatments for addictions. They are able to keep accurate data about recovery success. AA, because of their Traditions has some rather clouded statistics relating to the recovery success..it is pretty safe to say that the recovery rate in AA is not that successful, hence the reason insurance companies and Addiction Mental Health Professional are using other methods and treatments. There is already a decline starting in 12 step treatment.

www.healthrecovery.com

WhatHappenedToTheInvestigation posted the following:

Congrats Marc Fisher, you're the new Michael Moore! A one sided story to promote your own ego.

The only difference is that Michael Moore at least slants the facts. You just rely on rumor and innuendo.

You crossed the line from journalism to promoting your own agenda.

Marc Fisher DID interview many people in AA also churches institutions/rehabs. The facts for you and many others hurt. The only innuendo or rumor here is what you wrote and the fact that you wrote it is to promote YOUR agenda. as for the MT group I personally do not believe everyone there is bad or even is aware what is going on but there is no doubt that there has been egregious disturbing behavior going on for some time and now its out, there is no stopping it now. I very much wish you and EVERYONE in AA well

The Midtown Group, as an institution, uses sexual promiscuity, innuendos, rumors, financial and public recognition rewards, lies, abuse, and a sever level of peer pressured manipulation to keep those within its fold, in line. The Midtown Group, as an institution, frequently uses these tools so that they can continue to promote, control, fulfill and extend THEIR agenda, within the unsuspecting and all too trusting A.A. fellowship. When they have fully exposed and worn out one of these frequently used tools (in a given circumstance/situation), such has been witnessed by the horribly slanderous character assassinations that several Midtown members have posted on this thread alone; they switch tools and use another one from their limited tool chest of shortcomings, say, like distraction (ordering a pizza or repeatedly attempting and demanding to draw the topic off topic).

Seriously people, stop being played. If someone on this thread character assassinates another horribly or attempts to repeatedly change the topic, mark it up as Midtown behavior or the ravings of an idiot that doesn't know why the rest of us are here, then do not respond to mentioned midtown member or idiot (one and the same, perhaps?) and STAY ON TOPIC. Empty wagons are supposed to make noise. It's what they do. Stop trying to fruitlessly correct a natural state of non awareness for one, or all, of these empty wagons.

AA is a self cleaning oven, when the heat gets too high, the crap flakes off and burns. That is the basis of the Traditions.

Facts: A CFG leader is currently in jail. Another just recently drank while attempting to tell hundreds of others about 'real AA'.

A guy goes to his high school reporter friend, with unsubstantiated claims about Midtown, and Newsweek prints a story. The CFG group brings the same unsubstantiated claims to every news channel and paper in town, and more articles are printed.

The key here is unsubstantiated claims - unfortunately, as any lawyer or cop can tell you, eyewitness testimony is the single most unreliable evidence that exists.

So by using friends and harassment to bring unsubstantiated claims to the public's attention gets transformed into 'Midtown is causing a problem in AA?'

How is that? Because somebody went to their friend to print a story based on b.s.?

Oh, but Worthless Jerry's MySpace page says it is true? Rob K., who just drank again, says it is true?

Until 1 allegation can be corroborated by anyone outside of either camp, keep this out of the public. All that is being accomplished is tarnishing the AA name.

And saying 'but we are protecting the children' is not an excuse to break traditions, as the people doing that - who have just drank again - should be proof of.

More cult evidence.. The word on the street is that I drank. This is what the Q instills in the followers if anyone leaves the group "they drank".

I AM CLEAN AND SOBER. CALL ME: 202-489-7730 OR JUST COME AND LOOK FOR ME IN AA MEETINGS, YOU WONT FIND ME IN THE CULT MEETINGS...

Come on Rob, you know you're drinking. Admit it. How could you stay sober without Midtown? Everyone knows if you leave Midtown it's only a matter of time before you're stupid drunk. I'm surprised you didn't drink sooner than this. Real A.A. is a crock and eventually we all go back to King Alcohol. Thank God Midtown is there or we would be without hope. Midtown, save me from these A.A. spiritual freaks! Lure me into your lair of hypocrisy and sexual deviance. I can't survive on my own! I need sex & money replacement addictions to feel good about myself!

Boy, you are "Some guy" allright. Abuse, deny and lie....guess we are back to that phase again. I guess you want everyone here to believe the parent's and ex-members' personal stories here are uncorroberated as the victims of the abuse. We can't believe them, but we should believe you, while you try to redirect the focus from your group by publicly using an OUT RIGHT LIE about Rob K. Then you have the nerve to talk about tarnishing the AA name. How typical of you.

I'm not a member of either Midtown or CFG, just a local AA member that is sick of this blatant tradition breaking in the name of a 'cause'. Does anyone in CFG realize that the rest of the AA members in the area cringe whenever we hear of another story or have any clue how you come across in general?

Bill W. wrote the traditions because of various problems occured in the development of A.A. and because he had been advised of the Washingtonian Group. The Washingtonians had started in the mid 1860's by a group of drunks helping to keep other drunks sober, and was incredibly successful in a short period of time. Within 10 years, the Washingtonians were all gone, because they had decided that since they were doing such wonderful work with drunks, why not take on many other causes?

So Bill wrote the traditions to keep that from happening in A.A. Well, here it is, today.

Do any CFG leaders wish to post their sexual histories here? With dates?

That is not the issue here, it is using whatever means necessary to promote your resentments - which is blatantly obvious to 3rd party observers.

And please, don't start lumping me in as a 'Q', as it is stated in these posts that Midtowners gangs up on non-members but if you read the posts, you will see the CFG gang up on anyone that does not agree with their opinions.

If anything, it seems that the pot has called the kettle black and is in fact entirely capable of being black without the kettle now. We do not need to be A.A. vigilantes.

I'm glad that it's becoming apparent on this thread why some who leave Midtown have a hard time rejoining A.A.:

1. When former members show up to A.A. meetings, they hear slogans and literature passages that they've been hearing--in perverted fashion--in Midtown; these citations of the literature were used to justify the worst of Midtown's offenses, and sometimes it's just too much to hear them repeated, even if the intention of the people quoting them is completely different;

2. Midtowners get told that talking about what goes on there is putting A.A. in a bad light--and they get told this NOT only by Midtowners but by many in A.A. around this area (I've heard this many times).

The CFG is non-existent and has been for over a year so get your facts straight.

Getting unsubstantiated claims printed in national magazines and posted all over the internet, followed by lengthy forums with all sorts of gibberish does make A.A. look really bad.

If I started making up claims about a person, and kept it up year after year, and pulled every string I could to get these claims out in the public in everyway possible, does it:

1- after time, make these claims true?
2- make me look good?

The DC area is in damage control mode now, because there is such a black mark from all the hostility.

That is where efforts should be made, stop the mudslinging, and show up for the newcomer.

And I am sorry if I haven't kept up with whatever the anti-midtown gang is called these days.

Get a clue -- you actually can sleep at night thinking all of this is made up? That "anti-Midtowners" took the time to make up all the stories about their expeiences at Midtown earlier in this blog and in other venues? In the hopes that their corroborations would shake up their old "home group" because of a resentment? What a vivid imagination you have!

| - You think that I don't hear just as many rumors about innappropriate behavior from the anti-midtowners? It's just that I don't spend my energy trying to play judge and jury.

And again, you have to go to attack mode. What are you defending?

I'm just saying knock it off, quit the negative behavior - their bad behavior justifies yours? - and stick to making your A.A. better.

These are people (or perhaps only one) that are in a state of psychosis wherein all stimuli invokes increased similar reaction that deepens the sufferers seeming episodic drama. It's like a soap opera, but the person truly believes the drama they've dreamed up is very real and extremely important.

No logic applies here. Truth, untruth, hate, kindness, rage or love are equal stimuli to the sufferer. The reactions will be the same no matter what is posted.

Facts certainly do not apply.

Some Guy (Shawn H.) is full of some crap. Can't anyone see that he's but one within a small group of hypocritical midtown tools that's been throwing mud at anyone who is opposed to their higher power (the Midtown Group), on this entire thread? It's the same small group of Midtown whack jobs that keep focusing and posting these slanderous lies about Rob, Jerry, Ana, Michelle, Cathy, CFG, and Love and service?

Hope all is well with you. Just wanted to drop a line. It appears to me that you're letting this Shawn/Renee character get way too much into your head. Every time you post something responding to his crap, you are feeding his insanity. Stop giving him rent free space in your head. Keep doing what you're doing and fighting the good fight but keep to the principles and leave the personalities out of it. Don't let them drag you down to their level. Their bs is so off the charts that it destroys any credibility they may have had.

BTW I have learned that Midtown approached members who are very very prominent and powerful in Montgomery County to intercede on their behalf to save some of their meeting spaces. These members declined and would not help them. Apparently Midtown is prepared to break other's anonymity to protect themselves.

I'm not Shawn, and I don't know who you are talking about.

But this:
"Some Guy (Shawn H.) is full of some crap. Can't anyone see that he's but one within a small group of hypocritical midtown tools that's been throwing mud at anyone who is opposed to their higher power (the Midtown Group), on this entire thread? It's the same small group of Midtown whack jobs that keep focusing and posting these slanderous lies about Rob, Jerry, Ana, Michelle, Cathy, CFG, and Love and service? "

That's not mud flinging? That's not an attack? You are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing. By having more members flinging mud on threads your side is more trustworthy?

Like I said, using the wrongdoing of others, fancied or real, to excuse your bad behavior isn't what this is about.

Of everybody mentioned, you think the average A.A. member sees you guys running around and thinks 'Gee, I want what they have.' Either side?

I'm not a midtown member. But both sides, together, make up such a small percentage of the D.C. A.A. populace - quit making it seem like this area is nothing but a bunch of unprincipled maniacs. Speak for yourselves, stop trying to tell everyone else how they should be reacting, and quit trying to say 'change the traditions' just because they don't put up with your nonsense.

Hey "some guy", probably Sezgin. Someone told me just yesterday that Sezgin told them I drank a couple of weeks ago. My friend said that he said "rob K?! dont talk to him anymore, he drank and he's crazy!"

Call me, you have the number.

Well, this blog space seems to go thru phases and right now we are in a mud slinging cycle. I think it's good that basically everything happening here is happening and we can see and reflect on the different kinds of thoughts, feelings, and actions that are produced by this Midtown subject. It shows us what to expect and perpares us to deal with it. And that's just about everything that could possibly relate to AA and the various personalities involved.

The phase I think the overall AA community and general public, to the extent that it's involved, are in now in is the initial realization that this Midtown problem exists. Many of the (at least) thousands who wish to address this issue and end sexual predation and child molestation from operating under the good name of AA are just having the awful facts sink in. This discussion provides such people with the overall context of the verbal abuse, mind games, and rationalizations in which Midtown has been perpetrating its abuse now for some two decades. It also provides a forum for many newcomers to the debate to begin the process of contacting others to help out.

In that connection I invite anyone to email me at midtownfeedback@yahoo.com if you wish to talk.

I have received some good feedback on other web sites which are being used for contact and organizing a response to Midtown.

I know there are strong feelings by those involved and I think everyone who has read this blog space will understand why. I think, for the longer term and broader effort to uphold our AA fellowship and traditions at Midtown and possibly elsewhere we need to make this about more than just a Midtowner - ex-Midtowner struggle. If it is seen by a broader community (AA, professional groups and the general public) as simply a fight of clashing personalities, no matter how warranted and justified, it won't gain the broader support needed to put our fellowship back on track.

I have been watching these posts since this article came out with great interest and now I wanted to comment. I believe for the most part this has been a healthy exchange of thoughts and feelings about a serious subject. Even though it has gone off tract sometimes this is about abuse in AA or the good name of AA being abused. It would seem far fetched that so many people would go out of there way to smear this group (MT). Such a conspiracy is usually reserved for the government. Reporter in this day and age gets raked over the coals for printing false stories, fired at least usually followed by a lawsuit. I take this to hart because we are one of the Churches who suggested Midtown to look for another place for there meeting. This was a very difficult decision on our part, one we did not take lightly. We spoke with many people from AA, Hospitals and other places of worship before we made our decision. I personally do not believe every one in MT has committed these atrocities but it is prevalent enough to warrant the ban, nor do I think the rest are ignorant. There is obviously a level of vulnerability here. I was saddened to see names being used (not in the article) but the posts. Most egregious was from Some guy accusing a member of AA of relapsing and using is name. How horrible is that Some Guy should be ashamed of themselves. These actions would have me believe that Some Guy could be capable of atrocities being leveled at MT. As far as this giving a bad name to AA in this area most people knows that any group anyware will always have some bad seeds including ours. That's all for now God bless ALL of you.

A voice of reason and truth, thank you.

Concerned, we need your voice, thank you for commenting. I have been named too, but I can forgive. Please stay with us.

Concerned, thank you for your thoughtful and insightful post here. You are a real contributor and, as we all say at meetings, "Keep Coming Back"!

what is CFG???

Concerned Friends Group = CFG

I would just like to state that I'm in no way connected w/ CFG, or the MySpace people or any of the other names mentioned on this blog. I'm here because I used to be in the cult of Midtown; I witnessed the insanity first hand and would like to see it end.

To Some Guy: As a long time member of AA in the DC area I don't know of a single person who cringes when they hear about the exposition of the Midtown Group, on the contrary (and you would know this if you were a regular member of AA), people are RELEIVED that something is finally being done about it.

Please please forgive me but I forgot to mention that the guy person that Some guy accused of relapsing NEVER RELAPED. That my friends is the disturbing part, he/she KNEW THAT!! That stinks to high heaven. I too can forgive but that's easy for me to say. Also I am not CFG I am just concerned......ummm maybe I should join.

Sounds like a good idea, Concerned. Could someone post here how to contact CFG and how to join? Thanks.

The Fall of Midtown: AKA The Q Group:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=137850505

Concerned Friends Group:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=180152788&MyToken=2e85e99e-7832-48ff-bcbf-e4bbe356e667

Love and Service:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=136542721

Psuedoname:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=56294596

A couple more informed posts and it will be time for the ol Midtown "Abuse, deny and lie pattern" to be faithfully played out again...

Concerned - so it's perfectly ok for you to acuse me of being part of 'atrocities' at midtown, even though I have clearly pointed out that I don't go there? And for CFG to go public with these 'atrocities' although article after article states that none of these have ever been proven true by the police?

But I am the bad one for using a person's first name and initial in 1 of the many public forums this group has used to violate the traditions?

I'm noticing a pattern here, the same people ganging up as soon as someone posts something that may not be anti-midtown. Hmmmm. So there are what, 5-10 active angry people doing all the damage?

And to the ex-midtowner that says this area's members are relieved - GO TO DIFFERENT MEETINGS! They are not. Most don't give a hoot about midtown, most don't trust them or you guys, and none of you guys are exactly prime examples of healthly sobriety.

I mean, who are you guys to criticize Clancy? He speaks at 50 A.A. conventions a year around the planet, and has for the last 30 years. Apparantly, a huge majority of A.A. likes his message, or he wouldn't be able to do that - it's not he is in charge of all of those conventions. So if you are challenging him, you are challenging the majority of A.A. Period.

And that's what is going on here, guys, you may be all wound up about something and feel justified, but you are such a small minority and to use the tactics you guys have - violent disregard of the traditions of the very thing you claim to be trying to help - is absurd.

How long did you really think it would take before there was an anti-anti-midtown group?

Now, instead of attacking me, why not answer some of the questions I have asked in my posts, try explaining exactly how you aren't breaking traditions and damaging A.A., how it wasn't the anti-midtown group that brought this to the press, list your qualifications for being A.A., list your qualifications for speaking on behalf of the 1900+ meetings in the area, and tell why anyone with a right mind would want anything any of you have?

No one outside of midtown uses the phrase, "anti midtowners" and no one outside of midtown has, or has interest in the information some guy has. When are you people going to get real? A.A. separated itself from the Oxford Group. Why not separate yourself from A.A. and we will not have this chaos any longer? It would be best for all of us.

^ Exactly.

Some Guy said: "And to the ex-midtowner that says this area's members are relieved - GO TO DIFFERENT MEETINGS! They are not. Most don't give a hoot about midtown, most don't trust them or you guys, and none of you guys are exactly prime examples of healthly sobriety"

I already clearly pointed out to you that I'm not involved in any way w/ any of these groups. I know A TON of people in this area as I have been in AA for a long time and you are very mistaken if you think that people in AA don't "give a hoot about Midtown" Where in the world do you go to meetings and do you actually socialize with people afterwards? No need to answer. I can tell by your language and your mistakes that you're part of Midtown. Remember: the devils in the details...it's the little details that give one away. Try to get it right the next time you impersonate a normal member of AA.

Some Guy wrote: "And to the ex-midtowner that says this area's members are relieved - GO TO DIFFERENT MEETINGS! They are not."

That's not been my experience, at all.

In over a decade, I've only heard Midtown members say anything positive about Midtown.

EVERY other AA I've met has expressed concern or disgust about Midtown, or has not heard of them.

For the record, I have had no involvement with CFG or any of the other groups. Finding out that there was an organized group working to find out exactly what was happening at Midtown was a HUGE relief to me and dozens of other AAs I've spoken to.

And all the stories and experiences and rumors and "hearsay" match all the way around. That's a big coincidence, don't you think?

If I had read in Newsweek or on CFG that Midtown was slaughtering bunnies at its meetings, well that might give me pause, b/c that's entirely outside my experience with them and anything I've ever heard about them.

But the sexual exploitation of young women and girls and all the rest is the same stuff we've all heard and/or seen FOR YEARS AND YEARS. I have no reason to believe that people are making this stuff up. And NO ONE I've talked to thinks it's made up, either.

The girls quoted in these articles were TODDLERS when I started hearing that Midtown/Mike Q were taking advantage of young women and girls.

How many people, how many GENERATIONS of people, do you need to discredit as having resentment, etc. to keep your denial firmly in place?

How do you explain ONE group having so much controversy (all along the same vein) for 20 YEARS? And dismiss it as the work of a handful of people who weren't even ALIVE or drinking yet or in AA when it started?

Some Guy..You want some Clancy stories? Please..just because he speaks at conventions doesn't mean that he isn't a cult leader. The man is nuts..most in California (except the Pacific Group) can't stand the man. Believe me we would have to start a whole new blog on his cult behavior, brainwashing and financial exploitation. AA is a business for Clancy among many other things.

Sober L.A
"AA is a business for Clancy among many other things."

It's as plan as that.
Is it a coincidences that Clancy spoke up for the Midtown controversy group all the way from L.A., or is it a connected vain? Why does anyone speak for others?
NO BRAINIER

Clancy is Q's grand-sponsor. Clancy sponsors Johnny H. who is Q's sponsor.

1st let me copy/past what I wrote: "These actions would have me believe that Some Guy could be capable of atrocities being leveled at MT" .I did not say you could be capable of, nor did I say you were from MT. I would not take this any more personally as the person you falsely accused of drinking. I did not even use your name. I sorry if your feeling were hurt but just pointing out how wrong that was and it is wrong, I would never want to be the poster board for AA. We would all be doomed, never claimed to be perfect, but thanks to AA I am getting a little better all the time, so I am told and I did not even have to pay them this time. Seriously this is a dialog, sharing of ideas, thoughts and feeling.
2nd I did not even mention Clancy.I believe I herd him speak and like his message, I do not know him personally so I cant comment on that. You will have to address someone else on that matter. As for the Traditions it would be a much better sell if you not doing the same thing not that is such a big deal to me as I have never seen anyone practice anything in AA perfectly including myself, the Issue of this post is not so much as a anti MT post as it is about very destructive behavior causing grave harm by persons in MT. I have been around for awhile and know that the concern for this issue is a lot larger than you would have everyone to believe. As far as I am concerned you blew any credibility when you falsely accused someone of drinking in a public forum. You owe him an apology which I am sue he would gladly accept. That had nothing to do with this post.
Lastly what is a "violent disregard of the traditions"? I not getting the violent part, I sincerely wish you well. And appreciate most of your input, we have all went through HELL to get our seats and there will need to be some healing after take care of this issue, which I believe will be because it is out now, there is no turning back.

ps, as for anyone wanting what I have.(I wish to believe this is not a personal attcak) but I am comfortable thanks to the steps and my friend/family in and out of AA seem to be comfortable also, thats all I need. Have a great long weekend everyone, look forward to see you at Sessions.

I don't know who you folks are. But here in Texas we don't take kind to what you guys are doing to AA's good name.

Someone, please post the full names, addresses, phone numbers, and other personal histories of the anti midtowners- the one's who broke AA's traditions (other's anonymity at the level of press + engaging AA in controversy).

God and your own conscious will take care of those at midtown that are selfish--just like he does at every other group in the country.

I'd be happy to use my team of legal investigators to publish reports on their transgressions. I firmly believe that those who live in glass houses ought not to throw stones.

KB

OMG, KB, you can't be for real. You're a little behind the "Q-ball" on this issue. We already said above no one uses the phrase anti-midtowners unless you are a midtowner. Get real!

Webster would say different:

an·ti /ˈæntaɪ, ˈænti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-tahy, an-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun, plural -tis.
a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.

It's doesn't take a rocket scientist to ask why is someone in L.A. defending someone in D.C.?
Accusing and blaming parents of not doing their job? What is it that they are doing to others that parents cant? Or may I ask what are they doing having to defend and lie to so many?
A closer look at a the Midtown, Pacifica, Big Book and Dog on the roof groups should be looked at as there is a common denominator between them separate from A.A.'s program and Traditions

Maybe we should ask their sponsors?

One day people in A.A. have to get real and not look for real A.A. in others.

"Clancy is Q's grand-sponsor. Clancy sponsors Johnny H. who is Q's sponsor."

The Grand daddy of all Satan

Woowwww... Let me get this straight... KB, who is NOT associated with midtown (wink-wink) is angry at a huge assortment of victims, who have stated, in detail, how they were victimized by the midtown group. KB accuses these victims of violating the traditions (by speaking out against the harm done to them) and retaliates by asking anyone who has personal information about these AA members (who have been victimized), to post their private information, which would include their FULL IDENTITIES on the internet, so they can be punished.

I have seen many midtown members do some damn horrible things, but this is a full violation of what AA holds dear. Does anyone else see that? What this midtown group member has suggested is that someone post the private information of what midtown believes to be key "toxic" ex members, which would include their FULL IDENTITIES on the internet, so that they and other midtown group members can get their revenge on. If these identities are posted, along with their addresses, as this midtown member is requesting, know in advance that only a midtown member would do such a thing. You should also know in advance these same midtown group members will harm these midtown victims...for the second time.

No, no cult here...

Actions speak louder than words

Long term Midtown Group sayings...

"You can't drink with a dick in your mouth."
"If you don't know the Big Book, sleep with someone who does"

KB is all about Midtown,

Yes, of course I agree that KB is a member or associate of Midtown. I'm taking it that anyone who looks at this blog space and then expresses anger at the victims and threatens to expose their identities on the Internet has some serious spiritual problems. I think it's transparent and anyone reasonable realizes this.

Print the identities of AA members who speak out against the midtown group! It's the only way to teach them to respect the 12 Traditions! Love and tolerate midtown! Judge and punish midtown victims who cry out for help! Midtown is the victim of vicious rumors! Psssst! So and so (full name and 5th step contents continually posted on various websites-by midtown members-) is drinking, so don't listen to him!

Of all the things difficult to express in writing so that everybody gets it, sarcasm is one of the very hardest.

Hey, you forgot to mention this part of KB's offer, "I'd be happy to use my team of legal investigators to publish reports on their transgressions." Of course, you can't tell from his offer is he means Midtown's transgressions or anti-midtowners'. Either way, its interesting to see how they do AA in Texas (wink, wink).

Though this attempt at sarcasm is certainly appreciated and makes a good and valid point. :-)

i was involved in a situation where there were two factions within a group....one faction split off from the other and and formed a new group. there were loads of resentments,gossip, accusations etc. all the things that serve to bring a groups down. I asked my sponsor for a suggestion as to my role since, i was not a member of either group. He said i was to remain neutral because when the inevitable explosion occurred some of us would be called in to work with people on both sides of the issue relative to their alcoholism and we couldn't very well do that if we sided up one way or the other.

as far as what would Bill W. do...? a couple points to consider...he said on more than one occasion that if our society failed it would be from within not from without. Each of us has the resopnsibility to see that this society is here for those who don't yet know there is a way out...as long as our Creator deems it so...
lets try to remember that the alcoholic who still suffers in not always the newcomer...
as to that group problem i mentioned ...my sponsor was right...and i was in a position to offer assistance to people on both sides of the issue...it really didn't matter what my personal opinion was...i had to put principles before personalities...including putting the principles of our traditions ahead of my personality

Freds--

It's not a divorce. It's not a highschool fight. It's not one group against another.

It's people who have never met one another but have been the victims of ONE group over the span of many years speaking out about it in public...finally. It's people in A.A. who want to know how to stop this group from perverting the good name of the whole organization we owe our sobriety to.

Again, the same 5 people jump in to attack. How suprising. And concerned, you actually want me to apologize for calling out that guy? Where is his proof for all the call outs of the midtown members? Did you not read any of the previous posts, the articles, etc? And since I am not in midtown, but don't support what you guys are about, I am obviously evil and/or a midtowner? It's not within the realm of possibility that you guys are way out of line? How convenient of you people - try to discredit, but claim that is what others are doing to you.

You people have prooved exactly what I thought - you are crazy. A group of crazies united by a resentment. Is it true that some of the CFG members actually tried to take a random midtown attendee to court for a restraining order, although they had never even met that person? Is it true that various CFG people were egging midtown people's homes? Is it true that some of the CFG people have slept with minors in sobriety? These are all stories circulating in my groups. That's what I hear in my meetings, people.

To the poster that said either area members are disgusted by Midtown or haven't even heard of it - but that I am a jerk - that was my exact point. Nobody was talking about this in the meetings I go to, and I have over 15 years sober, until these articles and by making this infighting national, you are hurting my group.

And it seems this wasn't affecting groups outside of our area until these articles came out, as witnessed by posts from around the country. Please, you guys really need to read the traditions.

Since you guys have no proof, posting it all over the internet anonymously DOESN'T SUDDENLY MAKE IT FACT. If it were fact, the police would have acted a long time ago. Do you mean to tell me that the police either endorse this group or that they are incompetent and can't do anything about the apparantly blatant lawbreaking? The funny thing about you guys is that to prove your 'case', you simply post links to the same anonymous unproved accusations. THAT ISN'T FACT. IN ORDER TO BELIEVE YOU, WE NEED TO SEE FACTS.

And again, if 50 conventions a year deem Clancy a good enough message of A.A., wouldn't that stand to reason that these guys here, with what exactly, shouldn't be in charge of determining the D.C. area A.A. fate? Lemme see here, Clancy I. is a maniac but this guy Rob knows the truth?

Isn't each group autonomous, except when it affects other groups or A.A. as a whole? Who's group is affecting other groups here? I say the anti-midtown group - they went public, they don't adhere to traditions, they use whatever tactics they choose to try to cause harm. Is one of the 'leaders' of that group not even an alcoholic and currently in jail?

Concerned - you can't have your cake and eat it too. Get all your buddies to stop slandering and lying - in public no less - because I find it hard to believe that anyone doing any of these things - ON EITHER SIDE - would stay sober very long.

You guys really need to read the 12 and 12 before you cause too much more damage. Read it again, and see if you still have the same outlook. Please DDC, concerned, | - the usual suspects - read the traditions again, read about resentments in the big book, before you start rehashing the same thoughtless posts.

The twelfth Tradition asks us to give up distinctions amongst other fellow alcoholics.
And how does one do this with "everyone" promoting?

Once aware of this and as long as there are distinctions amongst us such as a big guy (sponsor) talking to a little guy (baby) there will be no Unity, just conformity.
Your choice

A.A. use to have GREAT UNITY and less distinctions. 1975 A.A. turned to conformity today is a by product of yesterday.

Do we have faith to change it back,
or the courage to just continue on?

Across the board, I don't keep up with Jones' or anyone else in clothing, cars, cooking, or much of anything else. But I take direction from a sponsor in AA. I do this because without that kind of check valve, I start to feel that I know God's will, based on what I've decided is good or bad.

It seems there are others just like me all over the place in our great fellowship.

Some guy wrote: "Isn't each group autonomous, except when it affects other groups or A.A. as a whole? Who's group is affecting other groups here? I say the anti-midtown group - they went public, they don't adhere to traditions, they use whatever tactics they choose to try to cause harm."

Well, no matter what you think about the "anti-Midtown" group, it isn't them being named publicly for grossly violating AA Traditions and committing acts against children.....all in the name of AA.

And to date, the vast majority of Midtown members/defenders posting on this forum or others have said thngs that are so FAR REMOVED from AA's Traditions and principles, one only need scroll up a bit to see how the members of this group prove ALL BY themselves (without help from anyone in CFG, AA, or anywhere) that they are operating outside the program of recovery called AA.

Those facts speak for themselves as far as I'm concerned.

Defending people who are vulgar, name-calling liars (and posting as another person IS lying) isn't strengthing your case that you have a clear understanding of the Traditions and who is and isn't violating them.

Obviously, you're entitled to your opinion and every right to post it here. But, talk about facts? That's all right here in black and white. If that's where your moral compass comes to a rest, then you're not going to convince me that you have a clear view of this situation or anything else.

And for the record, I have NO resentment against anyone in Midtown. The people I have met there I care for very, very much.

I think the ills that plagued Mike's orbit will dissipate with his passing. Mike had massive charisma. But I'm sure other svengalis are out there and ready to pick up any slack Mike's absence will bring.
Where you have young, vulnerable girls you will find lecherous old men. Its an issue that is way bigger than Mike Q or the "midtown" group. It's like AA's dirty little secret (one of them), the elephant in the room. It should be acknowledged, and be discussed.

Now we are moving back towards denial. There is an avalanche of evidence that Midtown practices are abusive, predatory, and cultlike.

As far as I know, I have don't know anyone who is currently in Midtown, who broke off from it and is currently in any anti-Midtown movement, or who is participating here. I do know several people who simply quit going some years ago and provided me some strong stories of abuse. But they have moved on, and in one case moved to another part of the country and no longer think or talk about Midtown.

Mr. Clancy Imusland's name has been brought up here as a supporter of Midtown. In the original Washington Post article his name comes up as follows:

"Clancy Imislund, managing director of Midnight Mission, a Los Angeles nonprofit group that serves the homeless, said he asked senior Midtown members about the allegations and found that 'there probably have been some excesses, but they have helped more sober alcoholics in Washington than any other group by far.'

"Imislund, who speaks frequently to AA groups across the country, said he concluded that if sexual relations between older men and young girls 'ever did take place, it's not taking place now. It had been an issue, but wherever you have a lot of young, neurotic people, they're going to cling to each other.'"

Let me make several points about Mr. Imusland. Marc Fisher interviewed Imusland, told him about the very serious charges, asked his opinion, and Mr. Imusland responded that he had "asked senior Midtown leaders", ie, the PEOPLE ACCUSED OF THE MOLESTATION AND OTHER ABUSES, and concluded that if they ever occurred, they have stopped. He implies, to my sensibility, that this is probably the fault of "young, neurotic people". This is an extremely serious issue and extremely seriously charges. It's hard to imagine more serious charges being made against any group or group leaders. I don't think it's necessary to recount what has happened when different religious groups and scouting groups over the last decade or so have been charged with similar abuses and these abuses have been proved. I believe that Mr. Imusland took the interview, the charges, and his response far too lightly. Perhaps he did not realize the seriousness of the situation. Perhaps he may conclude that he should not have discounted these charges after talking only with the ACCUSED PERPETRATORS. Perhaps he may wish to make a clarification and provide additional information about his broader investigation of Midtown. Perhaps he might wish to dissociate himself from his offhand remarks and from Midtown generally. There is still time and everyone would understand offhand remarks made without a full consideration of this matter.

As far as Midtown having "helped more sober alcoholics in Washington than any other group by far", this may not have been thought through logically. Midtown is several hundred members of many thousands in the Washington, DC area. Who knows if Midtown has helped more alcoholics or not? There are some pretty large sober groups out here in Virginia he may not be aware of. No one in AA keeps statistics. However, even if Midtown is the single largest group, it represents only a tiny fraction of the overall population of sober alcoholics in this metropolitan area.

So before anyone uses Mr. Imusland's statement as a strong statement of support of Midtown, and as a refutation of these serious charges against Midtown, perhaps Mr. Imusland should be contacted for either a written confirmation of his support of Midtown and refutation of the charges against Midtown, or a retraction of such full support of Midtown.

Posted by: | August 31, 2007 05:22 PM
Quote "Mike had massive charisma."

Really?
or a massive abrasive sponsorship personality.

Jane-
"Well, no matter what you think about the "anti-Midtown" group, it isn't them being named publicly for grossly violating AA Traditions and committing acts against children.....all in the name of AA."

I read the articles as a member of A.A. I have had little interaction with anyone from Midtown, I live in northern Montgomery County. I have had seen some CFG, but only was aware of this because of friends pointing it out.

So I read the articles, and I even did some more digging. The detective in Montgomery County told me there was nothing going on, just some people hounding him, and he didn't seem to happy to have to even waste his time on this.

And that's when it dawned on me- what really is going on here? Did you, Jane, do any research, or are you simply believing what is written on anonymous forums? Jane, you are 10 feet tall. Does that make you 10 feet tall all of a sudden?
Apparantly it does.

Then you acuse me of defending vulgar, name-calling liars! Well, if nothing has been proven against these midtowners, and this group is ravenously making claims against them, that is ok? I don't think so.

If nobody in my meetings was even aware of this going on, and now its all over the place, well, how did that happen?

I found out how that happened. A guy whose good friend was a writer for Newsweek happened to be dating a woman that apparantly is behind some of the allegations, and got a story written.

And then I got word of story after story of crazy shenanigans being pulled against these midtown people by this rabid anti-group.

I think it hurts A.A. If either side is guilty of the alleged offenses, they will ultimately pay a price I am sure of that. I am sure that I don't have to make them pay. I am also sure that this was not handled properly and that traditions have been violated, and that this is hurting our A.A. community.

We can say with certainty Midtown has hurt more people out in the open than any other group around.
Even the once EST group in A.A. didn't do as much harm as Midtowners

Some Guy is right. Midtowns aren't the bad guys. Perhaps they are but simple A.A. folk who are misunderstood by the general A.A. Fellowship? No, that can't be it... What then, could it be? Could it be that Midtown is the constant victim of villainous slander most foul! My Goodness! That must be the answer!

((Money laundering. Where is all their money going? RE: Meetings. The New Years Eve Play. Their Midtown Convention - Singleness of Purpose. ETC))

Often, in my peer network (outside of these misunderstood midtown meetings) do my peers and I contemplate just how crazy these CFG people are. We discuss, at depth, just how resentment riddled and crazy these 5 anti- midtowners, or Midtown Haters (as we like to call them -e-v-e-r-y-d-a-y- to e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e-) people are! If truth be told, it consumes all but all of our social interations. It saddens our Home Group members (which is not midtown influenced or Midtown controlled) just how much these crazy, resentful people are hurting A.A., while putting the blame on these innocent God fearing Fellowship bystanders. As we contemplate why this group of 5 crazies are relentlessly attacking these adoring A.A. members, we continually ask ourselves questions such as these... "Is it true that some of the CFG members actually tried to take a random midtown attendee to court for a restraining order, although they had never even met that person?" "Is it true that various CFG people were egging midtown people's homes?" "Is it true that some of the CFG people have slept with minors in sobriety?" I can only assume that most other A.A. Home Group members ask themselves these very same questions, if not on a daily basis, for these questions are clearly that important to our Home Group members.

((15 year old A.A. newcomer, pleading for your help, as she is pressured to have sex -again- in order to stay sober))

Oh Dear Lord! What Devils work beith done here!? Surely, these Midtown Haters have but proved exactly what all of us (outside of these Midtown meetings) have thought - they must have been driven crazy by Satan himself. Just as surely, they must be a group of crazies united by a crazy resentment. My goodness, it must be true!

((Institution or Hospital meeting being exploited by Midtown members who have lied about their relationship with their home Group - Midtown - in order to gain entrance to the Institution and acquire as many A.A. newcomers as possible))

When we have a breath of reprise from our non midtown service commitments, our non midtown Home Group usually goes over these questions, as deeply as Some Guy. Thank goodness for your continued contribution to this positive exchange of trustworthy information Some Guy. It does my non midtown heart good to finally know that there are other A.A. Home Groups that contemplate and discuss these questions as detailed as yourself and I, and the Home Group that you most certainly represent.

Home sweet home groups it makes me crazy
Home sweet home groups I am losing my mind
Home sweet home groups I got to get out of here and find a way, a way that is clear.

Some guy you seem to like facts, I will start whit just one for now and work my way up, It is a fact by your own writing that you used some ones name and falsely accused them of relapsing. That is a fact. That is against the traditions and is a big no no in AA. Because of your actions I fine it difficult to listen to you telling everyone that they are breaking the traditions, like I said you lost your credibility there. Also no one said you are evil and I never said you are in MT. relax guy. I can read your post weather you use CAPs or not. I am not able to nor would I stop what you call slandering and lying. Because when someone is victimized after awhile they will want to talk about it. If this happened to someone in your family or a friend I am sure you would change your tune. I will take you advice and read the 12 and 12, one can't read that too many times!! But because you are doing what you are accusing others of doing I am not sure if anyone else is going to listen. Remember lead by example!!. You not need to worry as they say the truth will come out and I believe it has, again I wish you well.

Now we are moving back towards denial. There is an avalanche of evidence that Midtown practices are abusive, predatory, and cultlike.

As far as I know, I have don't know anyone who is currently in Midtown, who broke off from it and is currently in any anti-Midtown movement, or who is participating here. I do know several people who simply quit going some years ago and provided me some strong stories of abuse. But they have moved on, and in one case moved to another part of the country and no longer think or talk about Midtown.

Mr. Clancy Imusland's name has been brought up here as a supporter of Midtown. In the original Washington Post article his name comes up as follows:

"Clancy Imislund, managing director of Midnight Mission, a Los Angeles nonprofit group that serves the homeless, said he asked senior Midtown members about the allegations and found that 'there probably have been some excesses, but they have helped more sober alcoholics in Washington than any other group by far.'

"Imislund, who speaks frequently to AA groups across the country, said he concluded that if sexual relations between older men and young girls 'ever did take place, it's not taking place now. It had been an issue, but wherever you have a lot of young, neurotic people, they're going to cling to each other.'"

Let me make several points about Mr. Imusland. Marc Fisher interviewed Imusland, told him about the very serious charges, asked his opinion, and Mr. Imusland responded that he had "asked senior Midtown leaders", ie, the PEOPLE ACCUSED OF THE MOLESTATION AND OTHER ABUSES, and concluded that if they ever occurred, they have stopped. He implies, to my sensibility, that this is probably the fault of "young, neurotic people". This is an extremely serious issue and extremely seriously charges. It's hard to imagine more serious charges being made against any group or group leaders. I don't think it's necessary to recount what has happened when different religious groups and scouting groups over the last decade or so have been charged with similar abuses and these abuses have been proved. I believe that Mr. Imusland took the interview, the charges, and his response far too lightly. Perhaps he did not realize the seriousness of the situation. Perhaps he may conclude that he should not have discounted these charges after talking only with the ACCUSED PERPETRATORS. Perhaps he may wish to make a clarification and provide additional information about his broader investigation of Midtown. Perhaps he might wish to dissociate himself from his offhand remarks and from Midtown generally. There is still time and everyone would understand offhand remarks made without a full consideration of this matter.

As far as Midtown having "helped more sober alcoholics in Washington than any other group by far", this may not have been thought through logically. Midtown is several hundred members of many thousands in the Washington, DC area. Who knows if Midtown has helped more alcoholics or not? There are some pretty large sober groups out here in Virginia he may not be aware of. No one in AA keeps statistics. However, even if Midtown is the single largest group, it represents only a tiny fraction of the overall population of sober alcoholics in this metropolitan area.

So before anyone uses Mr. Imusland's statement as a strong statement of support of Midtown, and as a refutation of these serious charges against Midtown, perhaps Mr. Imusland should be contacted for either a written confirmation of his support of Midtown and refutation of the charges against Midtown, or a retraction of such full support of Midtown.

Now we are moving back towards denial. There is an avalanche of evidence that Midtown practices are abusive, predatory, and cultlike.

As far as I know, I have don't know anyone who is currently in Midtown, who broke off from it and is currently in any anti-Midtown movement, or who is participating here. I do know several people who simply quit going some years ago and provided me some strong stories of abuse. But they have moved on, and in one case moved to another part of the country and no longer think or talk about Midtown.

Mr. Clancy Imusland's name has been brought up here as a supporter of Midtown. In the original Washington Post article his name comes up as follows:

"Clancy Imislund, managing director of Midnight Mission, a Los Angeles nonprofit group that serves the homeless, said he asked senior Midtown members about the allegations and found that 'there probably have been some excesses, but they have helped more sober alcoholics in Washington than any other group by far.'

"Imislund, who speaks frequently to AA groups across the country, said he concluded that if sexual relations between older men and young girls 'ever did take place, it's not taking place now. It had been an issue, but wherever you have a lot of young, neurotic people, they're going to cling to each other.'"

Let me make several points about Mr. Imusland. Marc Fisher interviewed Imusland, told him about the very serious charges, asked his opinion, and Mr. Imusland responded that he had "asked senior Midtown leaders", ie, the PEOPLE ACCUSED OF THE MOLESTATION AND OTHER ABUSES, and concluded that if they ever occurred, they have stopped. He implies, to my sensibility, that this is probably the fault of "young, neurotic people". This is an extremely serious issue and extremely seriously charges. It's hard to imagine more serious charges being made against any group or group leaders. I don't think it's necessary to recount what has happened when different religious groups and scouting groups over the last decade or so have been charged with similar abuses and these abuses have been proved. I believe that Mr. Imusland took the interview, the charges, and his response far too lightly. Perhaps he did not realize the seriousness of the situation. Perhaps he may conclude that he should not have discounted these charges after talking only with the ACCUSED PERPETRATORS. Perhaps he may wish to make a clarification and provide additional information about his broader investigation of Midtown. Perhaps he might wish to dissociate himself from his offhand remarks and from Midtown generally. There is still time and everyone would understand offhand remarks made without a full consideration of this matter.

As far as Midtown having "helped more sober alcoholics in Washington than any other group by far", this may not have been thought through logically. Midtown is several hundred members of many thousands in the Washington, DC area. Who knows if Midtown has helped more alcoholics or not? There are some pretty large sober groups out here in Virginia he may not be aware of. No one in AA keeps statistics. However, even if Midtown is the single largest group, it represents only a tiny fraction of the overall population of sober alcoholics in this metropolitan area.

So before anyone uses Mr. Imusland's statement as a strong statement of support of Midtown, and as a refutation of these serious charges against Midtown, perhaps Mr. Imusland should be contacted for either a written confirmation of his support of Midtown and refutation of the charges against Midtown, or a retraction of such full support of Midtown.

I will ask again how it's possible that these allegations are the same ones that many of us have been hearing for years?

The young women featured in these articles were toddlers when I started hearing similar allegations from other people in AA.

I think people have been trying to deal with these allegations for years in a way that upholds the Traditions. And as far as I know those efforts have not been effective and more and more stories of abuse have come out in the meantime.

I think it's important to remember the professional, non-AAs who have spoken out against Midtown--the addiction counselors, the therapists. They're not beholden to the Traditions of AA. They have no personal "grudges" to settle. And they are confirming what others are saying.

I don't begrudge those who broke their anonymity to the press. Yes, it's a violation of our Traditions, but if you knew that children were at risk, at what price do you uphold the Traditions?

And given what I've seen since these stories broke, the behaviors of people involved speak volumes. And they confirm to me that there is a group who routinely violates the principles of AA for their own gain, and a few individuals who have broken Tradition for the good of the whole--AA and society in general.

Clancy I, WILL HAVE TO RETRACT. They cannot afford to have the Pacific group disclosed by the public, it has to stay within the sponsorship system.

If you think Midtown has problem with sponsorship wait till you get a load of the mother vain.

Is this again too broad for this forum or do we have double standards when it comes to our friends who are scared, weak and weary?
Take a closer look.

Question:
Since A.A. has no Membership rules, which means one does not have to have or be a sponsor to be a member. Is the sponsorship system even protected by the Traditions of A.A.?. Is it separate? where is this requirement in A.A. and if not, WEll!!!!
Can another be sued if they are acting as a sponsor for another and damage occurs?

http://newrecovery.blogspot.com/2006/10/aa-member-shoots-kills-his-sponsor.html

I would never think of killing my sponsor ... maybe I would think of not calling my sponsor, but not killing my sponsor.

Any one who kills another is "NOT THINKING"
They are reacting

Why doesn't the parents of minors and adults that are victims seek legal counsel?
There are a lot of attorneys in A.A. that I am sure they will help.

Since the same 5 people keep going on and on I have an idea...

I will go the midtown meeting this sunday and decide for myself. I have never been there, so to be fair I will go. If I see with my own eyes what others claim - and concerned, please get it in your head that until now, nothing posted in any forum or written about can be taken as fact until some charges are filed - I will know both sides. So everything claimed as far as I am concerned is just that - claims, so to me you haven't had credibility from the get go. Until you stop pointing at myspace pages as your proof, get over the 1 allegation I made. 1 versus what, 1,000's? It must be nice to so blatantly ignore your own actions.

I can tell you though that from what I have seen and heard about this other crew, I am not impressed. It doesn't look good when anyone expresses any sentiment whatsoever that doesn't agree wholeheartedly with their views those same 5 people go on the attack.

Hey you all! Stop with all the gossip! Every time one of you (barely legal) 16/17/18 year old Midtown pressured sex victims comes forward, it hurts A.A. and its unity! If you really wanted to help A.A., you'd just shut up and clean your own side of the street. Oh, and pray for someone else to do something about it... But not you! Were not hurting A.A.! Your hurting A.A., every time you speak up! Face it, your just jealous and resentful because your not a part of us so leave us alone because unlike you, were trying to help people here...

*16 year old girl crying in the dark, after being forcibly manipulated -by the group- to have sex with a (MUCH) older man, in order to stay sober*

If A.A. members would carry the message that God could and would if sought, These types of people, places and things would not exist.

Sponsors or God ? someone who has two masters will hate one of them.

Someone who thinks they can see what's going on from the outside sitting around the group is unwise, others experienced the pack after time and is speaking out, sometimes it takes a while to learn to either leave or conform to a home group.
Many have chosen to change it as their past has become their greatest asset today.

I never called you evil, I never said you were from MT, I never pointed anyone to myspace pages and I am not posting to impress you, I am not sure why you are so defensive of thing that I never even posted, that is very strange to me, please re read wat I did so you can respond on something I did post, I would not mind that but to do so on something I did not post is a little weird, and no I am not calling you weird. You are very much entitled to your opinions but base it on what exists, I am sorry you feel this is an attack, I know some one personally who has been through this and have known them for quite awhile, why would I not believe her? If you had some one you care about confide in you that something happened to them would you call them a liar? They have no reason to lie and all the stories are similar. You are really hot about this. Imagine how they feel? Honestly I do not know of criminal activity but apparently some have what I do know is activity so morally incomprehensible that is extremely harmful to these people and AA and themselves. In that respect you will not get criminal indictment guilty charge you seem to need to see something is going on. you are so charged up about this its hard to believe you do not know these people but I will take your word, go to the meeting like you said, I have been to there meetings before, just long enough to see something was not quite right so stick in there. If it was not for my friend I might possible be sceptable but I believe her which makes me believe them. I think its great you are going, also just because I do not agree with what you are saying does not mean I have a problem with you or anyone else, I have not forgotten most of us are in the same dysfunctional family. I wish all sobriety and happiness. P.S. Some guy please read several times to you can comment on what I DID say. Is that fair? Every one take care

OMG I was writing when WOW posted, I can not believe what you wrote, I am almost speechless.....almost. You really don't see that's it's the guys pressuring the young ladies that is hurting AA not them....you actually believe it's the ladies who need to clean there side of the street? Really!!! Truly that is the most outrageous thing I have read this whole time. Some Guy if this is what you run into those meeting I believe you might change your mind; please go as soon as possible and let us know what you find. Thanks

Same Guy, go to the meeting. What evidence are you going to be looking for? If you don't see public sex does that mean the charges are false? If you don't see sponsors ripping prescription drugs away from crying members are the charges false? What behavior are you looking for?

I went in the 1980s to a couple of Midtown meetings and I felt there was something that felt wrong about it and didn't go back. There was a 20 year celebration for some guy named Hugh, who must have been 15 when he got sober. But the entire meeting seemed to be some kind of glorification ceremony, way way way overdone. Who was he?, I thought. I had no idea then and have no idea now.

Anyone who reads the posts here (less the ones from Midtown members/defenders using vulgarity and name-calling and such) as "attacking" might have a sense of perception that varies quite differently from my own.

I'd encourage anyone to go back and read the girls' accounts. Read the mothers' accounts in this thread.

Reread the Newsweek article and read the parts where professionals state their opinions about Midtown.

Watch the news clips on the local news sites. Watch the ones where MORE people came forward and said their experiences matched those who had already come forward.

Read reviews of the Washington Post and Newsweek to see what sort of reputable media outlets they are.

And then go through this, and the other Marc Fisher blog, and read the comments from Midtown members/defenders--provided they're still there--many of them were not able to follow the simple rules The Post set out here, so their vulgar, profanity-laced, insulting, and duplicitous comments may have been removed.

Any rumors, character assumptions, motives, and personalities aside........those actions speak volumes.

If Midtown members/defenders can't practice the principles of AA on an internet blog, why would I think they're practicing the principles elsewhere?

If Midtown members/defenders can't follow the rules of an internet blog, why would I think they're following rules elsewhere?

If Midtown members/defenders behave in morally reprehensible ways (lying, name-calling, insulting, suggesting vulgar acts, etc.) on an internet blog, what makes me think they're not acting in morally reprehensible ways elsewhere?

They've been accused of all these things: not following the principles of AA, not abiding by rules/laws, and behaving in morally reprehensible ways. And they've proven, THEMSELVES, right here in black and white, that those allegations are true, insofar as their participation here goes.

It's not a huge leap to think that their behavior in other arenas might follow suit.

Does that mean that ALL the allegations are true? Not necessarily. But it certainly makes them plausible.

Add that to all the other ways Midtown openly defies the principles of AA (male/female sponsorship, group funds, outside affiliation, leaders vs. servants) and you have a RECIPE for disaster. So no surprise that now there's a disaster.

And no one in Midtown can figure out how that happened, or accept an iota of responsiblity for it?

I can't defend any of that. Your mileage may vary, I guess.

I went to a couple midtown meetings and heard some good stuff. During the meeting, i didn't see any 15 year olds being presured sexually, hurt or anyone being thrown our of a midtown group home. Maybe you all are wrong?

If there are people in AA who are breaking the law, i.e., molesting minors, then it should be reported to the authorities. (And it has, hasn't it?)

AA has no leaders and no one can speak for AA. AA does not have an internal police department or private detectives. If someone stole my purse during an AA meeting or assaulted me - or even worse - killed me, I wouldn't expect AA to charge, try and sentence the offender. Now wouldn't such an act toward me hurt AA as a whole if it was publicized? Yes!!! Should members of AA speak to the public and press about it? I don't think so.

I can't thank you people enough for what is being learned here. It would mean nothing if not shared. Listing to concerned friends that go to this meeting to find out for there self's
As if peoples pasts that were already their and experienced are not of an asset.
Let's put something in perspective.
1. Alcoholism is a deadly disease Yes or No (yes go on no just stop here)

You would think that if one found an answer to the above question with 11 million or so, lets just say a lot of drunks, the rooms of A.A. should be packed on IT's Own, the streets full, standing room only, we are talking of a deadly disease. It's a shame others claim they have a way when so many die watching the sick in A.A..

The people who claim it's the meetings! miss the message of A.A's. ideas in the A, B, Cs
Others claim THEY help so many, when in actuality so many really have no why out but to go past them .

A question to ask ourselves as an individual would be "AFTER" a while why do so many leave or have to change meetings? when there is no way out? What do they " feel and see" after a while not just one or two but thousands come looking for a way out that cannot hang or do they get hung, Others utilize the same 12 step in other programs with ease.

Does saying others are nuts or alcoholic justify things, Telling another they are alcoholic works for a while even though A.A. asks us not to. Telling another not to think works for a while, Telling another to go to meeting works for a while, Telling others to get a sponsor works for a while, Telling others this to will pass, Telling others to work the steps works for a while. All this telling works for a while, "None of this is the message" proclaimed sponsors.

God works great miracles through people who "do not claim his work", have you ever wondered why all the meetings in A.A. are not packed due to this hideous deadly disease that can gut someone from the inside out?

Clancy I, claims larger meetings help more people, Do they? Not according to A.A's experience. And the experience of many here, so what can help?

Knowing it is simply JUST ONE ALCOHOLIC TALKING FREELY TO ANOTHER- in old words, when two or more are gathered in HIS name, not just a bunch, and the bigger the bunch clinging on to their sponsors at some heavily sponsored home group. The ones using the name and spirit of A.A. in A.A. for prestige or recognition to say look what "WE" do

Why are not all the rooms full of people with such a disease that is so deadly?
Is it the same denial that's going on here when there is no other helpful being to go to?

'my opinion', one purse theft or even murder at an AA meeting is certainly not an act of AA.

But the abuses, molestations, predation, and cultlike practices at Midtown are represented to the members, especially newcomers, as part and parcel of the AA program of recovery.

Midtown has perverted everything about our program and represents itself as an AA group. Great harm is being done in our name.

But Midtown is not AA. Midtown is not even remotely AA. Midtown is a cancer on AA. The only way that AA will be blamed is if AA members now do nothing and let this horror continue.

ere are a few passages regarding the Fourth Tradition. From what I've heard, the Midtown Group is helping alcoholics to recover from alcoholism. Has the Midtown group "greatly injure[d] AA as a whole"? That's what I think the discussion here is focused on. Unfortunately the Traditions do not tell us what we should if they have. Does anyone know if the General Service Board has been contacted regarding this problem?

Tradition Four (long form)
With respect to its own affairs, each AA group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of other neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect AA as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.

The Twelve Traditions Illustrated, The Fourth Tradition
Because each group IS autonomous, it's up to each group to avoid any action that might harm AA. And there HAVE been such actions - or this Tradition would be unnecessary. "Implicit throughout AA's Traditions," Bill W. wrote, "is the confession that our Fellowship has its sins. We admit that we have character defects as a society and these defects threaten us continually."

Tradition Four (12&12)
In charting this enormous expanse of freedom, we found it necessary to post only two storm signals: A group ought not to do anything which would greatly injure AA as a whole, nor ought it affiliate itself with anything or anybody else ... The AA group would have to stick to its course or be hopelessly lost. Sobriety had to be its sole objective. In all other respects there was perfect freedom of will and action. Every group has the right to be wrong.

So why are these groups attacking openly in the press instead of going to the group and trying to be the change they want to see?

p.s. According to AA General Service Conference-approved literature, "The A.A. Group ... Where It All Begins," an Intergroup or Central Office - in this case WAIA - does not have any authority over an AA group. Its responsibilities are detailed in this pamphlet.

Listen to what peoples experiences are sharing.
Many are experiencing group wills instead of group consciouses, "Follow instead of JOIN"

If you don't like it start you OWN group. They did instead of being true to thy selfs.