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Posted at 11:02 AM ET, 12/ 8/2010

How much of Albert Haynesworth's signing bonuses can the Redskins recover?

By J.I. Halsell
J.I. Halsell

The practical, short-term impact of the suspension of Albert Haynesworth is that by placing him on the reserve/suspended list, the Redskins now have an open active roster spot to be used on a player who may better fit their long-term plans, while at the same time precluding Haynesworth from playing anywhere in 2010.

While the recovery of signing bonus is a possible outcome of the suspension, the roster management aspect of this decision could prove to be the more realistic rationale behind the decision, and any money recovered or withheld would represent an added benefit from the club's perspective.

Assuming the club is interested in pursuing Haynesworth's signing bonuses, in order for the Redskins to recover any of these signing bonuses -- per the CBA -- they would have to prove the following:

"...player willfully takes action that has the effect of substantially undermining his ability to fully participate and contribute in either pre-season training camp or the regular season..."

If the Redskins can prove that Haynesworth undermined his participation, the amount available to forfeiture is not exactly clear. The CBA uses the terms "signing bonus allocation" and "prorated portion of his signing bonus" in discussing forfeitures, but what is not clear is if these terms mean team salary accounting proration or the proration of the bonus relative to the length of the contract.

Using the team salary accounting proration interpretation, because the Redskins restructured Haynesworth's deal to preclude the $21 million signing bonus from prorating into future years, the "signing bonus allocation" in 2010 is the full $21 million. Adding in the $1 million of 2010 signing bonus proration from his 2009 $5 million signing bonus, the total would be $22 million of recoverable money.

Using the proration of signing bonus relative to the length of the contract interpretation, regardless of the team salary accounting of the signing bonus, the $21 million signing bonus would be prorated over the six remaining years of the deal, resulting in a "signing bonus allocation" in 2010 of $3.5 million plus $714,000 prorated over seven years from his 2009 signing bonus. The total would then be $4.2 million of recoverable money.

An arbitrator's interpretation of these CBA terms will determine how much the Redskins can recover. Once the recoverable money ambiguity is resolved, based upon the facts of the case and the CBA, it will be determined whether 0%, 25%, 100%, or 4/17th (where 4/17th represents the number of weeks missed as a result of Haynesworth's default) of the recoverable money will have to be repaid.

The Haynesworth grievance could very well set the precedent for the next CBA as it relates to signing bonus forfeiture language.


A native Washingtonian, J.I. Halsell spent two seasons as a salary cap analyst for the Washington Redskins. Prior to his tenure in Washington, he spent two years working in the NFL Management Council, and now pens a blog entitled "Under the Cap" for FootballOutsiders.com. Follow him on Twitter at @SalaryCap101.

By J.I. Halsell  | December 8, 2010; 11:02 AM ET
Categories:  Albert Haynesworth, Roster analysis  
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Next: Haynesworth-Shanahan feud didn't derail the season, players say

Comments

It's not about his stupid signing bonus.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Its gonna be expensive to buy a productive 3-4 dline.

Posted by: Stu27 | December 8, 2010 11:14 AM | Report abuse

The Redskins will have to get in line behind all of the paternity suits and circuit courts lined up to take some of that bonus money.

Posted by: rich20ssu | December 8, 2010 11:14 AM | Report abuse

In the Giants game, the Redskins converted 42% of their 3rd downs. The Giants only 20%.

J. Davis averaged 4.4 yards per carry on 9 rushes. He had an additional 41 yards on 3 receptions. K. Williams averaged 5.8 yards per carry on 5 rushes.

Posted by: kaasmaster | December 8, 2010 11:14 AM | Report abuse

Sally Jenkins doesn't know a damn thing about the Redskins or football. She lives in New York and ONLY writes when there is something bad happening.

Moving on...

Posted by: edvar | December 8, 2010 11:02 AM

She actually interviewed Shanahan yesterday. No one else who's posted up on this board today has talked to him.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:15 AM | Report abuse

"He only plays on third downs. We will kinda miss him on third downs," cornerback Carlos Rogers said.


An unnamed part time player gets full time attention.

Only in RI does this happen.

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 8, 2010 11:16 AM | Report abuse

i'd prefer to get updates on Torian's hamstring, TWilliams's shoulder, Rogers's hamstring/hands, who they're bringing in to replace AH, than what was posted here.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | December 8, 2010 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Why should I beleive what Shanahan says about Haynesworth,after his laughable assertions about McNabb?

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 10:33 AM |

...oh and Alby has appealed the suspension so Shanny will have to prove what he says is true.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | December 8, 2010 11:19 AM | Report abuse

Sally Jenkins doesn't know a damn thing about the Redskins or football. She lives in New York and ONLY writes when there is something bad happening.

Moving on...

Posted by: edvar | December 8, 2010 11:02 AM

She actually interviewed Shanahan yesterday. No one else who's posted up on this board today has talked to him.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:15 AM

Great.

So the worst writer at the Post interviewed Shanny and got one side of the story.

I'm just saying I wouldn't be caught dead quoting Sally Jenkins to anybody.

Brownwood, I hear you about Wise. Jenkins and Wise regularly battle for the bottom. No winners there.

Posted by: edvar | December 8, 2010 11:19 AM | Report abuse

"The Haynesworth grievance could very well set the precedent for the next CBA as it relates to signing bonus forfeiture language."

I believe that this is the key sentence in this article. I expressed this same sentiment before the season started. The timing of the suspension puts the issue fresh in the league's mind as the season draws near an end, and the labor negotiations will soon begin in earnest.


Posted by: kaasmaster | December 8, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Has the stat geek calculated how many WPA's Shanahan threw out when he took this drastic move? Judging from Stu and Alan's whining, it must have cost us the season. I'm guessing 20 or 40 WPA's.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

"He only plays on third downs. We will kinda miss him on third downs," cornerback Carlos Rogers said.


An unnamed part time player gets full time attention.

Only in RI does this happen.

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 8, 2010 11:16 AM


Actually, this is getting play in the national media, not just RI.

The hook is that the Skins took a league MVP candidate, grossly overpaid him, hired a taskmaster coach who locked into a personal battle of wills with him and now he's a huge liability who doesn't even play.

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 11:22 AM | Report abuse

now i can't say for sure, not having read albert's contract, but i bet there's nothing in there about him only playing DT in a 4-3. and i would say not playing the position your coach wants you to is "conduct detrimental to the team".

since albert is so useless as trade bait, let's really stick it to him. and i'm pretty darn sure he'll cooperate with my evil plan by being a selfish baby and bastard. next year, if he misses any mandatory workouts, suspend him. if he refuses to play in "okie" formations, suspend him. if he does play, but "dogs" it - that's "detrimental" - suspend him. if he refuses to listen to coaches, suspend him. if he loafs during wind sprints, suspend him. you get the idea.

we don't want to get rid of him and 1)give him what he wants and 2)have to play against a team w/him on it.

of course this all goes out the window if we get a trade offer from outside the division commensurate with his talent - 1st round pick, or possibly a high second rounder. short of that, i say we stick it to him - let him waste the last few productive years of his career.

sorry... i know this is probably not the most logical course to pursue, and maybe by next spring or whenever i'll be able to think rationally about this and change my mind, but boy it sure would feel good to f with al this way...

Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch | December 8, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

The hook is that the Skins took a league MVP candidate, grossly overpaid him, hired a taskmaster coach who locked into a personal battle of wills with him and now he's a huge liability who doesn't even play.

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 11:22 AM

Yeah, he played so much better with Jim Zorn "Stay Medium" as his coach.

Shanahan didn't "turn him into" anything. He is what he is. Shanahan gave him a chance to get better and he wasn't up to the challenge. Go back and study your Sally Jenkins.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Say what you will about the skins but one thing we can all agree on is that they're never boring.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 8, 2010 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

HAHA keep in mind the ordeal isnt done yet. He appeals it, the ruling committee rules that not wanting to talk to a coach isn't suspension worthy.
AH shows up at Ashburn scratching his @ss tellin Allen to go tell Shanny that he's back...

Posted by: Stu27 | December 8, 2010 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Say what you will about the skins but one thing we can all agree on is that they're never boring.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 8, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Say what you will about the skins but one thing we can all agree on is that they're never boring.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 8, 2010 11:28 AM

Did you watch the Giants game? Maybe you meant "they're never boring except on game day"?

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:31 AM | Report abuse

I think that the important/lucky thing here is that they can cut/trade/whatever him without taking a cap hit on the remainder of his contract. It really would have sucked to have the last 6 years of his contract on books factored in with 6 years worth of signing bonuses taking up cap space. This could be the one factor that led Snyder to “gamble” on giving Haynesworth suge a large contract. He probably knew all along that the CBA talks would be stalled and he would have an out. While a lot of money is lost and stuck in Haynesworths pockets, there is no future detriment to the TEAM’s future cap space (if there will indeed be a salary cap). The only damage is to Snyder’s pocketbook. Yay team.

Posted by: dlhaze1 | December 8, 2010 11:35 AM | Report abuse

NNNNEEEEERRRRRRDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: monk811 | December 8, 2010 11:36 AM | Report abuse

So what are the 'skins going to do with the roster spot? How are they going to stop the Buccs, Jags, Giants, and Cowboys rushing attacks? Can they keep any of these teams under 150 yards rushing? How many passes will Josh Freeman attempt Sunday? Will Brian Orakpo ever get another sack?

By the way, Horton is not on the bench but on injured reserve. He went there just prior to Landry missing games.

Posted by: bangkokben | December 8, 2010 11:36 AM | Report abuse

"How much of Albert Haynesworth's signing bonuses can the Redskins recover?"


I can't be the first Skins fan to answer this question with another key question: "Who gives a sh*t?"

Snyder has burned a helluva a lot of money on just as bad...just add this the steaming pile of sh*t he's served us over the last decade.

I couldn't care less if he gets back a red cent...all I care about is that this is the last in a long line of monumental screw ups from Snyder/Cerrato brainfart (only because "braintrust" isn't the right word).

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 8, 2010 11:37 AM | Report abuse

REDSKINS PLAN GIANT FAREWELL CARD FOR HAYNESWORTH

ASHBURN, VA -- The Washington Redskins are inviting fans of Albert Haynesworth to sign a giant farewell card to the beloved big guy during their next-to-last home game of the season this weekend at FEDEX Field.

According to team officials, fans are invited to bring indelible markers to the stadium for this Sunday's game, and write their farewell messages to Albert on the doors of all stadium bathrooms -- which will then be collected and hinged together into a giant-sized fold-out metal card for the defensive lineman.

According to a team spokesman, "It's the least we could do for the big guy -- especially considering how much sh!t he's put us through already -- this sort of card just seems like the right way to express our gratitude to him for bringing the fan base back together again."

Posted by: Vic1 | December 8, 2010 11:38 AM | Report abuse

HAHA keep in mind the ordeal isnt done yet.

Posted by: Stu27 | December 8, 2010 11:27 AM

The gift that keeps on giving? It may not be over, but he'll never be inside Redskins Park again. If he ever talks to Allen it will be on the phone. More likely, though, he'll text Allen.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:39 AM | Report abuse

The hook is that the Skins took a league MVP candidate, grossly overpaid him, hired a taskmaster coach who locked into a personal battle of wills with him and now he's a huge liability who doesn't even play.

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 11:22 AM |

Mostly right. So the time for the hand wringing was back when they signed him...not now that they've taken the necessary action to fix it and looking to move forward.

Next year, when there is no 24/7 AH92 soap opera in training camp, and everyone is on the same page and trying to be a good football team, will Shanahan still be a taskmaster with a huge ego?

Posted by: MColeman51 | December 8, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

Did you watch the Giants game? Maybe you meant "they're never boring except on game day"?

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:31 AM | Report abuse

Boring and inept are two completely different things. I'm always intrigued by the way they find new things to suck at every week.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 8, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

I personally think all the writers that WaPo has suck, especially Tracee Hamilton, Wise, Jenkins and Reid. None of them seem to have facts or a direct line to the Redskins park, cuz they are all hated.

Fact of the matter is this, AH is gone, move on...Fat azz Reid, could we please get some info on the important issues: T. Williams injury, replacement for AH, Torain and how much botox does Shanny use before games, the important stuff...

I am not willing to give up on Shanny, but I am getting there...i know this is going to take a couple of years, but F'N christ, it seems like the decision making is getting worse...

Posted by: mhartz1 | December 8, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

Shanahan didn't "turn him into" anything. He is what he is. Shanahan gave him a chance to get better and he wasn't up to the challenge. Go back and study your Sally Jenkins..

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:26 AM

Dude, get a room. I think they've both made the situation worse.

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 11:42 AM | Report abuse

REDSKINS PLAN GIANT FAREWELL CARD FOR HAYNESWORTH

Posted by: Vic1 | December 8, 2010 11:38 AM

Hey, Vic, this would be the perfect time for you to bring back those hilarious "Dear Diary" posts you used to do on Haynesworth. Man, everybody misses that stuff. Make sure though that you copy and paste them from post to post because we wouldn't want to miss a single one. You should start with his inner thoughts after the was out clubbing and was hungover the next morning.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:43 AM | Report abuse

And BEEPS Sally Jenkins cmon man. Were not talkin Islanders hockey here.

Posted by: Stu27 | December 8, 2010 11:43 AM | Report abuse

alan4

The hook is that the Skins took a league MVP candidate, grossly overpaid him, hired a taskmaster coach who locked into a personal battle of wills with him and now he's a huge liability who doesn't even play.

All by himself #92 is emblematic of every FA/trade failure signing going back 10 years.

Long time fans draw a crooked line from the signing of Mark Carrier, Deon Sanders, Bruce Smith, Dan Stubblefield, Adam Archeulta, Christian Fauria, Brandon Lloyd, and ending, hopefully in the diminished giant who used to be a Titan.

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 8, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

I utterly don't care whether the Redskins take his bonus or not, or whether AH gets his prorated salary or not. What matters is that he is gone. Since it will have no impact on a salary cap, even if there is one, the money becomes The Danny's problem, not the fans' problem.

What I really want to know is whether Ryan Torain is going to be back on the field so we can see whether he's a long-term answer at RB. Haven't heard much new about him this week other than he should be ready, but I assume we'll get an update after today's practice.

Posted by: skinsfan713 | December 8, 2010 11:45 AM | Report abuse

Posted at 11:02 AM ET, 12/ 8/2010
How much of Albert Haynesworth's signing bonuses can the Redskins recover?
By J.I. Halsell
----------------------------------
None....they may want it back..but they wont get it back...

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 11:49 AM | Report abuse

Hey, Vic, this would be the perfect time for you to bring back those hilarious "Dear Diary" posts you used to do on Haynesworth.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:43 AM | Report abuse

--

Hey Beeps -- Thanks for the request. Trouble is, scamp is concerned such posts could turn the RI faithful into rainbow warriors or something -- which would then render them unfit for military service.

Posted by: Vic1 | December 8, 2010 11:50 AM | Report abuse

Hmm...quite surprised at how many want to point at MS in any way here.

Simply put, if AH bothers to be a professional, none of this happens, and the Redskins would have been a better team. Since he lacks any professionalism, it did happen.

AH is 100% responsible for this mess. I don't see other players throwing fits and refusing to do what they're asked.

As for the signing bonus, forget it. They won't recover a dime, though that isn't their priority here.

Last thing: Redskins beat the Bucs as the team rallies behind the coach. Call it 17-10.

Posted by: shaunsherman12 | December 8, 2010 11:51 AM | Report abuse

You all think its over. HAHA its not over, it will never be over. Hell or purgatory. your only choices...

Reid will be pumping AH posts for at least the next week when they attempt to do the expedited hearing. Then there will be the typical reactions and all that whatnot... this will continue for a while.

Posted by: Stu27 | December 8, 2010 11:51 AM | Report abuse

write their farewell messages to Albert on the doors of all stadium bathrooms -- which will then be collected and hinged together into a giant-sized fold-out metal card for the defensive lineman.
by Vic1

Now, that's funny, Vic. Come on, beep-beep, you got to admit that is funny.

Posted by: frediefritz | December 8, 2010 11:52 AM | Report abuse

So what are the 'skins going to do with the roster spot? How are they going to stop the Buccs, Jags, Giants, and Cowboys rushing attacks? Can they keep any of these teams under 150 yards rushing? How many passes will Josh Freeman attempt Sunday? Will Brian Orakpo ever get another sack?

Posted by: bangkokben | December 8, 2010 11:36 AM


Think of it like some of the "drastic rebuild" crowd like to...this is our chance to throw some practice squad guys out there to "see what we've got"...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 8, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Shanahan didn't "turn him into" anything. He is what he is. Shanahan gave him a chance to get better and he wasn't up to the challenge. Go back and study your Sally Jenkins.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Shanny switched to a Defense that AH doesn't fit into, HOW IS THIS GIVING HIM A CHANCE TO BE BETTER? It assured from day 1 that he wouldn't be better, IMO. Please explain. May I add everyone and their Grandma knew AH did not want to be in a 3-4.

Posted by: pabrian2003 | December 8, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Stu27

Reid will be pumping AH posts for at least the next week when they attempt to do the expedited hearing.

What annoys is that at some point, folks will remember there's a football game this upcoming Sunday.

Reid's administration of this forum is so centered around #92 that it's as if his threads are cheeks and AH the azzhole.

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 8, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Beep Beep, it matters that it is the owner's fault because this is the same crap he has been pulling for as long as he has owned the team, and will continue to pull as long as he does. The fan revolt of last year was the best thing that has happened to the team during the Snyder era, but in his typical way he ended it by buying some alleged savior - in this case Shannahan and Allen. But even they won't make a difference, because the idiot Snyder will continue to subvert them and play his Fantasy League games. It has taken me ten years to realise this, heck, I have defended Snyder up untill last year. Now, I have lost all faith. And so, once again, I say -
It's the owner's fault
It's the owner's fault
It's the owner's fault
It's the owner's fault
It's the owner's fault
It's the owner's fault
It's the owner's fault
It's the owner's fault

Posted by: David90 | December 8, 2010 11:57 AM | Report abuse

Hmm...quite surprised at how many want to point at MS in any way here.

Posted by: shaunsherman12 | December 8, 2010 11:51 AM

Is that because you view MS as beyond reproach?

So, which of his criticism's of McNabb ability to run the 2 minute drill do you believe? a) too out of shape, b) doesn't know the plays c) all of the above.

If you beleive Shanahan is beyond reproach, it has to be c).

For me it's d) none of the above.

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Next year, when there is no 24/7 AH92 soap opera in training camp, and everyone is on the same page and trying to be a good football team, will Shanahan still be a taskmaster with a huge ego?

Posted by: MColeman51 | December 8, 2010 11:40 AM

Absolutely.

Posted by: edvar | December 8, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

since albert is so useless as trade bait, let's really stick it to him. and i'm pretty darn sure he'll cooperate with my evil plan by being a selfish baby and bastard. next year, if he misses any mandatory workouts, suspend him. if he refuses to play in "okie" formations, suspend him. if he does play, but "dogs" it - that's "detrimental" - suspend him. if he refuses to listen to coaches, suspend him. if he loafs during wind sprints, suspend him.

Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch | December 8, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

if he complains about the ratio of powder to water in the gatorade, suspend him. if he snickers at Little Danny's height, suspend him. if he finishes all of the baked chicken during meals, suspend him. if a drop of pee bounces out of the urinal and lands on the floor, suspend him.

Posted by: monk811 | December 8, 2010 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Shanny switched to a Defense that AH doesn't fit into, HOW IS THIS GIVING HIM A CHANCE TO BE BETTER? It assured from day 1 that he wouldn't be better, IMO. Please explain. May I add everyone and their Grandma knew AH did not want to be in a 3-4.

Posted by: pabrian2003 | December 8, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse
----

Boy, you must be a lousy leader. What would you do with a staff of more than a few people? You can't please them all, so bending over backwards to give them what they want - when it is opposed to what you want - is ridiculous. MS and company have to do what they think is best, not cater to one a**clown whose version of working out is lifting beers at a bar in Reston.

You act as if Albert couldn't have been a good NT. I say baloney to that. He never tried, so he'll never know. Personally, I can't a imagine a worse sight for a C than AH standing directly over the top of him.

Posted by: shaunsherman12 | December 8, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Shanny switched to a Defense that AH doesn't fit into, HOW IS THIS GIVING HIM A CHANCE TO BE BETTER? It assured from day 1 that he wouldn't be better, IMO. Please explain. May I add everyone and their Grandma knew AH did not want to be in a 3-4.

Posted by: pabrian2003 | December 8, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

It's a team sport, pab. Players play, coaches coach, management manages. The players don't get a choice of what defense is going to be used. Players don't have a say in who is hired to coach. They are supposed to show up, in shape, and play at whatever position they are told to play in. And if they don't play well, they sit on the sideline. And if they cause more problems than they are worth, they are off the team.

Posted by: frediefritz | December 8, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

...oh and Alby has appealed the suspension so Shanny will have to prove what he says is true.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | December 8, 2010 11:19 AM
---------------------------------
and Shanny wont be able to prove that..and he'll have to account for his part in this mess...and if we don't win out or at least 3 of the last 4..Shanny would have succeeded in ruining our team for 1 victory more than last season...we could've kept Zorn for that...and to those who say he's building for the future..just blinded by the hype...so what he won 2 super bowls..that's the past..the days of the task master coach in the NFL are over...the sucessful coaches today are more dynamic and related to today's players..example..Tomlin, Smith, Reed, Ryan...those are the ones...not the Shanny, Coughlin, or Mangini's..and as some people want to blast Synder for all the free-agent players that have been a bust..I submit this to you...Shanahan is a bust!

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

monk811,
THAT'S the idea! it's really pretty easy. the skins could make the next few years hell for albert.

Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch | December 8, 2010 12:09 PM | Report abuse

Shanny switched to a Defense that AH doesn't fit into, HOW IS THIS GIVING HIM A CHANCE TO BE BETTER? It assured from day 1 that he wouldn't be better, IMO. Please explain. May I add everyone and their Grandma knew AH did not want to be in a 3-4.

Posted by: pabrian2003 | December 8, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse
Thei is a team sport, pab. It's not a democracy. Players play, coaches coach, management manages. PLayers don't get to pick the coach, and don't get to pick what defense is used. They are supposed to show up ready to play, and to play where they are told to play. If they don't do that well, they will be replaced.

Posted by: frediefritz | December 8, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

monk811,
THAT'S the idea! it's really pretty easy. the skins could make the next few years hell for albert.

Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch | December 8, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Is that because you view MS as beyond reproach?

So, which of his criticism's of McNabb ability to run the 2 minute drill do you believe? a) too out of shape, b) doesn't know the plays c) all of the above.

If you beleive Shanahan is beyond reproach, it has to be c).

For me it's d) none of the above.


Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

----

Alan,

This is a strawman, since my point was MS's dealing with AH, not McNabb. Believing the coaches and management have no fault in AH's irresponsible behavior doesn't somehow translate into believing they are never at fault. In the McNabb instance, I thought it was a bad decision that was in line with "over thinking". So, no, I don't find him, or any other coach that has ever been, "beyond reproach".

In this PARTICULAR INSTANCE, I find MS blameless, because I believe AH is ultimately responsible for the entire mess. All he had to do was be a grownup, and he couldn't do that.

Now, stop making lousy assumptions that are exaggerant just because the core of your argument is silly. That's right, silly.

It's silly to blame anyone other than the jerk who refuses to cooperate, refuses an out when given to him (be waived and leave the check), refuses to be a decent teammate, refuses to work under trying circumstances, and now refuses to talk to the coach.

He's an a**, and I'm glad he's gone, given everything...and the Redskins long term will be much better for it.

Posted by: shaunsherman12 | December 8, 2010 12:18 PM | Report abuse

Shanny switched to a Defense that AH doesn't fit into, HOW IS THIS GIVING HIM A CHANCE TO BE BETTER? It assured from day 1 that he wouldn't be better, IMO. Please explain. May I add everyone and their Grandma knew AH did not want to be in a 3-4.

Posted by: pabrian2003 | December 8, 2010 11:55 AM

I love this...pabrian has it right. Every successful leader has catered his ENTIRE operation to ONE person. That's the way to do it. When coming up with a scheme, a coach should ALWAYS go to the player that works the least, expects the most, and has no interest in the team concept and build around that guy. It's what made Oakland great when they had Randy Moss and it's what won the Vikings a title with Brett Favre. Oh wait...

Seriously...how peabrain can get out of bed and muster the brainpower to turn on a computer and manipulate the keys on a keyboard to say this stuff is the 9th wonder of the world...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 8, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

So what are the 'skins going to do with the roster spot? How are they going to stop the Buccs, Jags, Giants, and Cowboys rushing attacks? Can they keep any of these teams under 150 yards rushing? How many passes will Josh Freeman attempt Sunday? Will Brian Orakpo ever get another sack?

Posted by: bangkokben | December 8, 2010 11:36 AM


Who cares? At this point in the season wins are counter productive. It's all about draft position now. 5-11 will put us somewhere between 6th and 9th.

Let those teabagging Cowboys fans celebrate meaningless wins at the end of the season.

We know what's important now.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 8, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

They'll hold onto him until after the Super Bowl to let him stew in Unpaid Hell without a spot on a playoff team, then kiss his fat, overpaid scapegoat a** bye-bye..Those four running teams coming up should be able to neatly run right through us, leaving us in good bargaining position for Cam or Luck, etc. at 6-10 or thereabouts..Plenty of players to move after this year, so expect a mixed bag of players and draft picks to move up to the No.1 spot, Cam looks like the next Michael Vick ( minus the dog torture, but plus the greedy, meddling father)..

Posted by: frak | December 8, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

...oh and Alby has appealed the suspension so Shanny will have to prove what he says is true.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | December 8, 2010 11:19 AM
---------------------------------
and Shanny wont be able to prove that..and he'll have to account for his part in this mess...and if we don't win out or at least 3 of the last 4..Shanny would have succeeded in ruining our team for 1 victory more than last season...we could've kept Zorn for that...and to those who say he's building for the future..just blinded by the hype...so what he won 2 super bowls..that's the past..the days of the task master coach in the NFL are over...the sucessful coaches today are more dynamic and related to today's players..example..Tomlin, Smith, Reed, Ryan...those are the ones...not the Shanny, Coughlin, or Mangini's..and as some people want to blast Synder for all the free-agent players that have been a bust..I submit this to you...Shanahan is a bust!

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

...oh and Alby has appealed the suspension so Shanny will have to prove what he says is true.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | December 8, 2010 11:19 AM
---------------------------------
and Shanny wont be able to prove that..and he'll have to account for his part in this mess...and if we don't win out or at least 3 of the last 4..Shanny would have succeeded in ruining our team for 1 victory more than last season...we could've kept Zorn for that...and to those who say he's building for the future..just blinded by the hype...so what he won 2 super bowls..that's the past..the days of the task master coach in the NFL are over...the sucessful coaches today are more dynamic and related to today's players..example..Tomlin, Smith, Reed, Ryan...those are the ones...not the Shanny, Coughlin, or Mangini's..and as some people want to blast Synder for all the free-agent players that have been a bust..I submit this to you...Shanahan is a bust!

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

brown, thats some funny friggin stuff right there...

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | December 8, 2010 12:26 PM | Report abuse

This is a strawman, since my point was MS's dealing with AH, not McNabb.


In this PARTICULAR INSTANCE, I find MS blameless, because I believe AH is ultimately responsible for the entire mess. All he had to do was be a grownup, and he couldn't do that.

Posted by: shaunsherman12 | December 8, 2010 12:18 PM

How a coach deals with players is an overlapping trait. Since we aren't in the locker room, I am judging the coach's public criticism of McNabb against his public criticism of Haynesworth.
It's a very logical starting point.

For your PARTICULAR INSTANCE, your beliefs about Haynesworth are largely rooted in Shanahan's public statements, which I find to be an unreliable source.

Without a doubt, Haynesworth is not a victim here. But I have no reason to believe Shanahan is blameless.

Specifically, for example, I blame Shanahan for his public humiliation of Haynesworth at the beginning of the season, forcing him to pass a fitness test that no other player had to pass.

Basic leadership: Praise in public, chastise in private.

Shanahan's over-the-top public humiliation did not foster a good relationship between player and coach, and could have been handled better.

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 12:27 PM | Report abuse

Here are some facts about Tampa Bay.

Seven wins: Cleveland 5-7, Carolina 1-11, Cincinnati 2-10, St. Louis 6-6, Arizona 3-9, Carolina 1-11, and San Francisco 4-8. Total winning percentage of victories: 0.262 (22-62).

Five losses: Pittsburgh 9-3, New Orleans 9-3, Atlanta 10-2, Baltimore 8-4, Atlanta 10-2. Total winning percentage of losses: 0.767 (46-14).

So in conclusion Tampa is a solid slightly better than average team that is 6-0 against losers, 1-0 against average teams and 0-5 against winning teams.

Look for them to win a close game against a less than avergage 'skins team.

Posted by: bangkokben | December 8, 2010 12:27 PM | Report abuse

O_TROD

5-11 will put us somewhere between 6th and 9th.


That is and is not a lucky spot.

It'll be lucky if someone wants to trade up.

Trading from such a high spot should render additional picks, you'd think--a we need more picks in rounds 3-5.

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 8, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

The triple post is not on me...RI has a glitch....aplogizes everyone

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: MColeman51 | December 8, 2010 11:40 AM

Absolutely.

Posted by: edvar | December 8, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

yeah but who will be the fall guy if AH is not on the team then. Im thinking Dmac, shanny has already set the table for this one.

Posted by: Stu27 | December 8, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Aside from Banks, suspending AH is the only thing that gives me hope right now.

At least now when we're getting our assess kicked we can have some self respect in knowing that tough, honorable decisions are being made somewhere in the org. (though devin thomas still stings you DO NOT release that guy.)

Posted by: BrooklynSkins | December 8, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

monk811,
THAT'S the idea! it's really pretty easy. the skins could make the next few years hell for albert.

Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch | December 8, 2010 12:09 PM | Report abuse

As much as I'd enjoy the pain that Haynesworth would go through, we have to cut ties while we can. Think of it as cancer, you can't let it just stay in you or it'll spread to the rest of the body. Plus I think there is a limit to how many times we can suspend him in a year. We could get a decent role player for the 4th or 5th round draft pick we get for him in a trade, or if we let him go we should be able to get a 3rd round compensatory pick in the 2012 draft, right now that's probably looking to be the best option, I'll take a 3rd for his fat ass!

Posted by: monk811 | December 8, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

bangkokben

Here are some facts about Tampa Bay.

Look for them to win a close game against a less than avergage 'skins team.


Thank got for that post.

I thought folks forgot there is a game Sunday.

I see the Skins beating the Bucs in a close game.

I think the team will rally around the head coach and play well enough to beat a young warm weather team on a cold day:

Redskins 24

Bucs 17

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 8, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

That is and is not a lucky spot.

It'll be lucky if someone wants to trade up.

Trading from such a high spot should render additional picks, you'd think--a we need more picks in rounds 3-5.


Posted by: MistaMoe | December 8, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

Exactly. It will put us in prime position to take advantage of the teams that are sure to be seduced by the Cam Newton/Jake Locker hype machine.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 8, 2010 12:38 PM | Report abuse

I can't believe there is so much ruckus over a guy with 30.5 career sacks and 6 forced fumbles over 8.5 seasons, of which he has never played all 16 games.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | December 8, 2010 12:38 PM | Report abuse

Greg, it just absolutely boggles my mind how so many people can't see such an obvious cause/effect here...I mean, Shanahan isn't playing tough guy with AH if he's in camp and holding up his end of the bargain. Shanahan isn't playing mind games with McNabb if he's playing up to snuff. There is an action that prefaces Shanahan's reaction...this is 8th grade stuff here.

I'm not saying Shanahan isn't in the wrong in parts of this because he certainly is...but it's not like Shanny is picking fights with Cooley and Fletcher. It's a career malcontent and a QB with a 75.2 QB rating...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 8, 2010 12:39 PM | Report abuse

How a coach deals with players is an overlapping trait. Since we aren't in the locker room, I am judging the coach's public criticism of McNabb against his public criticism of Haynesworth.
It's a very logical starting point.

For your PARTICULAR INSTANCE, your beliefs about Haynesworth are largely rooted in Shanahan's public statements, which I find to be an unreliable source.

Without a doubt, Haynesworth is not a victim here. But I have no reason to believe Shanahan is blameless.

Specifically, for example, I blame Shanahan for his public humiliation of Haynesworth at the beginning of the season, forcing him to pass a fitness test that no other player had to pass.

Basic leadership: Praise in public, chastise in private.

Shanahan's over-the-top public humiliation did not foster a good relationship between player and coach, and could have been handled better.

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 12:27 PM | Report abuse

Well, Alan, different coaches coach in different ways. What you are describing is Joe Gibbs' approach. Both Shanny and he have rings, so who's to say which way is better. I just know that Shanny knows how he wants to coach. Could it have been handled differently...yes. What are the long-term effects of the two methods...time will tell. But this still comes down to a suspension for a player who would not show up for team drill, would not show up to see what the new defense was going to be, would not show up for mandatory...well, you get the picture. Haynie made his decisions, now he will have to live with them.

Posted by: frediefritz | December 8, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

or if we let him go we should be able to get a 3rd round compensatory pick in the 2012 draft, right now that's probably looking to be the best option, I'll take a 3rd for his fat ass!

Posted by: monk811 | December 8, 2010 12:34 PM
---------------------------
compensatory picks are awarded for players lost to free agency...not someone you cut...if we want anything in return for AH we must trade him...

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

The hook is that the Skins took a league MVP candidate, grossly overpaid him, hired a taskmaster coach who locked into a personal battle of wills with him and now he's a huge liability who doesn't even play.

Posted by: Alan4 | December 8, 2010 11:22 AM

Yeah, he played so much better with Jim Zorn "Stay Medium" as his coach.

Shanahan didn't "turn him into" anything. He is what he is. Shanahan gave him a chance to get better and he wasn't up to the challenge. Go back and study your Sally Jenkins.

Posted by: beep-beep | December 8, 2010 11:26 AM
===========================
AH played in the Skins 10th ranked 4-3 Defense of 2009 and the Skins 32nd ranked 3-4 Defense of this year. The only difference in those two years is the new Head Coach that has forced a new Defensive scheme on the previously 10th ranked Defense rather than to adjust to the personnel he inherited.
And AH, who took very few snaps in this year's last ranked Defense, will be Shanahan and the Skin's PR office scapegoat.
And Stu27, you're right.. the table was set in Detroit to make DMac the next Shanahan scapegoat focal point for the failed Offense.

Posted by: onanygivensunday | December 8, 2010 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 8, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

Moe

Agree, but don't know that any strategy predicated on trading picks for more picks is going to work.

We stood at 4th last year -- and couldn't seem to generate much interest. And falling a bit deeper into this year's draft is not going to help our position much either.

And when we suggested that some might want to consider trading players for picks, that was roundly dismissed as well.

Besides, it's not like we have more than four or five players worth trading for anyway.

Another complication is the sad fact that the other owners and GMs don't seem to think much of our owner and his front office team -- nor trust them to even know how to consider and execute a smart, mutually agreeable or fair deal.

So the long and short of it is that we should plan on playing the cards we got -- because I seriously doubt anyone is going to deal us any others.

Posted by: Vic1 | December 8, 2010 12:48 PM | Report abuse

The triple post is not on me...RI has a glitch....aplogizes everyone

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Spoken like a true Haynesworth apologist!

Posted by: WaitingGuilty | December 8, 2010 12:55 PM | Report abuse

The triple post is not on me...RI has a glitch....aplogizes everyone

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Spoken like a true Haynesworth apologist!

Posted by: WaitingGuilty | December 8, 2010 12:55 PM
------------------------------
lol....good one

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Shanny switched to a Defense that AH doesn't fit into, HOW IS THIS GIVING HIM A CHANCE TO BE BETTER? It assured from day 1 that he wouldn't be better, IMO. Please explain. May I add everyone and their Grandma knew AH did not want to be in a 3-4.
Posted by: pabrian2003 | December 8, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

----
Boy, you must be a lousy leader. What would you do with a staff of more than a few people? You can't please them all, so bending over backwards to give them what they want - when it is opposed to what you want - is ridiculous. MS and company have to do what they think is best, not cater to one a**clown whose version of working out is lifting beers at a bar in Reston.
You act as if Albert couldn't have been a good NT. I say baloney to that. He never tried, so he'll never know. Personally, I can't a imagine a worse sight for a C than AH standing directly over the top of him.
____________________

No one can answer this. To me its both their faults. By switching to the 3-4 the defense worsened you pretty much lost 2 big time players AH and AC. How would this line sound AC AH LA then a Phil daniels or whoever at the end. I mean what the last 3 super bowl winners ran a 4 3 def. The 3 4 is the trendy pick everyone runs it or a form of it, only reason it was so successful was it was a new rare look for teams.

Not to mention the AC exp failed twice in AC and here I think the team failed to play to its strengths u go from top 10 d last few years to dead last yeah they look like geniuses. Also not to mention we need to address a bunch of ood on d (which was never an issue) as well as our O which has been neglected for a while.

Posted by: Joker99z | December 8, 2010 1:03 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, I knew that, guess I had a brain fart. Thanks for the correction Bootney!

Posted by: monk811 | December 8, 2010 1:08 PM | Report abuse

leaving us in good bargaining position for Cam or Luck, etc. at 6-10 or thereabouts...


Posted by: frak | December 8, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

This is thinking like we always have, when will it end? Before we get a high profile quarterback, we still need to work on both lines! Also, CB's, another safety, and receivers that actually have a little speed. Then, maybe, we could get a quarterback after all that is done.

Posted by: ddrcoaster | December 8, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

leaving us in good bargaining position for Cam or Luck, etc. at 6-10 or thereabouts...


Posted by: frak | December 8, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

This is thinking like we always have, when will it end? Before we get a high profile quarterback, we still need to work on both lines! Also, CB's, another safety, and receivers that actually have a little speed. Then, maybe, we could get a quarterback after all that is done.

Posted by: ddrcoaster | December 8, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

I agree with Coaster, we need the O and DLines rebuilt before we grab a QB. However, it is ultimately Shanahan's decision. If he is gonna try and trade McNabb this offseason, which is highly unlikely, then I would be for grabbing a QB, but if McNabb is here next year, I would trade down to somewhere around 17 or 18 in the 1st round, gain an extra pick in the 2nd or 3rd, and get Julio Jones WR, then get the top NT and G you can get with the next 2 picks.

Posted by: monk811 | December 8, 2010 1:19 PM | Report abuse

I think it was in the Sally Jenkins piece, AH told MS what kind of plays he would be comfortable doing (running plays not being one of them) and that left AH with about 12 plays a game he was willing to participate in. Now, 3-4 or 4-3 I don't know, but for the kind of money he is getting who is he to tell the HC what he is willing to do? Get real people, they guy is a wanker.

Posted by: FloridaCapsFan | December 8, 2010 1:28 PM | Report abuse

As for the triple posting thing, I am using IE8 and I wait for it to tell me that its done then I refresh the WaPo page to see if my post made it.

Posted by: FloridaCapsFan | December 8, 2010 1:33 PM | Report abuse

I think it was in the Sally Jenkins piece, AH told MS what kind of plays he would be comfortable doing (running plays not being one of them) and that left AH with about 12 plays a game he was willing to participate in. Now, 3-4 or 4-3 I don't know, but for the kind of money he is getting who is he to tell the HC what he is willing to do? Get real people, they guy is a wanker.

Posted by: FloridaCapsFan | December 8, 2010 1:28 PM
-----------------------------------------
in this short paragraph you have managed to say two different things while appearing to be saying the same thing...that's what i call skill...you twist like a politician..either he told him what he was Comfortable with or what he was Willing to do....which is it?

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

frediefritz - I agree with Alan4 "Basic leadership: Praise in public, chastise in private.

Shanahan's over-the-top public humiliation did not foster a good relationship between player and coach, and could have been handled better." I knew back in September Haynesworth would not play for Shanahan after he publicly humiliated him. No man is gonna charge a hill after you spit in his face... well, maybe McNabb will! AH was wrong on many levels but getting crapped on for not showing up at a voluntary event was not a way to start the new regime. The only one hurt from this will be the fans who are blinded by this whole incident! While we talk about AH, no one seems to notice the Giant whuppin we received this weekend (w/o AH on the field). Great PR job!Think it will be better next year? Nope!

Give me a break with this Shanahan SuperBowl crap! There is no Terrell Davis in Washington and even tho he had Elway as a QB it was Davis who gave him the SBs! Didn't do anything before and he didn't do a dang thang after!So far not impressed! Keep LJ cut LJ bring back Torain who was cut for before season. Keep Galloway for 12 games then cut Galloway 11 games into the season! It took all summer and 11 games to find out there was someone you liked more at second receiver? Well above average defense who needs a good defense when you have Super Coach to mold you into a last place joke! AH is gone. JC is gone. Who are we going to blame for next year's losses?

Posted by: DCull | December 8, 2010 1:44 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: DCull | December 8, 2010 1:44 PM
---------------------------------------
Exactly...Great Post...Shanahan has ruined the Redskins

Posted by: BootneyFarnsworth | December 8, 2010 1:51 PM | Report abuse

I wish they could get back most of it

Albert does not show up on time, is possibly drugged up with booze while showing up to work, and acts like a teenager in the work-place

The minute he was given a big contract, he did what most little children do and ranted and raved whenever he wouldnt get his way

Posted by: Bious | December 8, 2010 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Hopefully, because of his weight, Haynesworth will develop diabetes early and live a short life.

Posted by: kenk33 | December 8, 2010 1:58 PM | Report abuse

Why can't the Redskins sue him for breach of contract on the basis of his lack of "good faith" execution of his portion of the agreement? Then they could actually go after all monies paid under the contract, not just the bonuses. It's pretty clear he had no interest in fulfilling his side of the agreement.

Posted by: indyrich | December 8, 2010 2:06 PM | Report abuse

Getting Albert's money should be easy to getback. The Redskins should sue the Player's Union and his agent for their receipt of damaged (mental) goods.

Posted by: ridge_road_marco | December 8, 2010 2:12 PM | Report abuse

Good thing Shannie wasn't around when Sonny J, Billy K, and Riggo were showing up at work drunk or with a hangover! That would have cost us 2 Hall of Famers!!

Posted by: DCull | December 8, 2010 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Not only will the Skins not get any of his roster bonus back, they will lose the arbitration over his suspension. The Falcons tried to get back Vick's bonus and failed, even though he had concealed the fact he was running an illegal dog fighting operation. The Eagles did prevail on the TO suspension, but they had none of the baggage the Redskins do. The coaches repeatedly praised AH in the media. Now they are going to say they were lying? They humiliated and tormented him, eg with the conditioning test that no one else had to run. There is blame to pass around, and an arbitrator is unlikely to uphold a suspension in that situation.

As for the idea the team will rally around the coach, don't make me laugh. They have already quit.

Posted by: Iamhumongous | December 8, 2010 5:18 PM | Report abuse

When you are so right it hurts, you are wrong. Please put this whole Albert saga behind you. Don't pursue the money. Just learn from the (bad) experience and try your best not to repeat it. Just say "enough.". Next subject, please!

Posted by: skinsfanmiami | December 8, 2010 6:16 PM | Report abuse

Make the fat bastard buy out his contract otherwise let him rot on the sidelines. He is a lazy POS and will never be a team player. He will forever be known as the most selfish, lazy, waste of talent the NFL has ever seen. That's his legacy.

Posted by: ta0903 | December 9, 2010 1:09 AM | Report abuse

test

Posted by: blogger421 | December 14, 2010 2:36 PM | Report abuse

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