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Finalists for Tight End Coach Vacancy

The Redskins are down to two candidates for the vacant tight end position according to a source with knowledge of the situation, with a decision expected early next week.

Bill Khayat, who served as Washington's offensive quality control coach the past two seasons, is being given strong consideration, but head coach Jim Zorn also interviewed Scott Wachenheim, the assistant head coach at Liberty University, for the position last week, according to the source. The position became open when former Joe Gibbs assistant Rennie Simmons retired (Simmons contract was up as well, according to sources).

Khayat, 35, helped work with the offensive line here and spent three years with Arizona prior to coming to Washington. Khayat was a tight end at Duke and an honorable mention All-America pick there in 1994. Khayat's uncle Bob (kicker 1960, 1962-63) and his father Eddie (defensive tackle 1957, 1962-63) both spent time with the Redskins during their playing days.

Wachenheim has no NFL coaching experience but spent two years under Zorn at Utah State (1992-1993) as an assistant when Zorn was the offensive coordinator there. Wachenheim is a former offensive lineman at Air Forvce and longtime offensive line coach, who has had stints at Rice, Arkansas and Colorado. Wachenheim has served as Liberty's offensive coordinator since arriving at the school in 2006.

By Jason La Canfora  |  January 24, 2009; 4:37 PM ET
 
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Comments

Gooby gonna doobie

Posted by: leevi98 | January 24, 2009 5:12 PM | Report abuse

Whoever is hired to coach the tight ends must get Fred Davis up and ready from day one.

He is Alge Crumpler-lite and has the size and speed to create a mis-match underneath: something the Skins offense could use as after Moss/Cooley, there's nothing to fear from Washingotn on passing downs.

One easy way to strengthen the o-line is to use 2-tight end formations where Davis run blocks, or delay releases on curl/drag patterns on running plays.

Such a formation then allows Cooley to run screens, crossing routes, outs, and delay release patterns.

The Skins have two very good tight ends, and Moe hopes Zorn schemes plays where they're on the field at the same time.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009 5:26 PM | Report abuse

Replacing an assistant coach would seem to be a pretty routine bit of business during the off-season. I wonder how they'll go about messing this up?

Posted by: mack1 | January 24, 2009 5:28 PM | Report abuse

I'd pick the coach who can get his tight ends to jump highest and catch the ball in the end zone.

Posted by: Samson151 | January 24, 2009 5:48 PM | Report abuse

Since we're talking about replacing coaches and such. How about Mike Holmgren for GM? What does everyone think about that?

Posted by: Sulphide1 | January 24, 2009 5:59 PM | Report abuse

Check out this Giants fan...

1:30 is classic.

SJK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-6Tn0Ie-AQ

Posted by: swowra | January 24, 2009 6:21 PM | Report abuse

what do Seneca Wallace and Shaun Hill have in common?

They both had better years then Jason Campbell last year. Not to mention the rookie matt Ryan at ATL.

I do think a better O-line will help him, but I don't think JC will be the leader that takes us to the SB. Just my opinion, and I'd love to be proven wrong. Go do it JC!

Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 24, 2009 6:49 PM | Report abuse

Khayat or Wachenheim? Wachenheim or Khayat? Anyone up here have any strong opinions about either of these two? I mean, look at their credentials and tell me whether an OC from Liberty College or a QC coach has done the most with tight ends. Whoever gets the job it will be based on potential, not accomplishments.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 24, 2009 7:17 PM | Report abuse

"I do think a better O-line will help him, but I don't think JC will be the leader that takes us to the SB. Just my opinion, and I'd love to be proven wrong. Go do it JC!

Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 24, 2009"

I think Campbell is a lot better than a Gus Frerotte, a Trent Green, a Rypien, or a Schreoder. All drafted and played QB here.

That said you make an extremely valid point. Something that Joe Gibbs was very big on from day one. Having alternatives at QB who can start and win. That IS NOW something to be very concerned about given the age of a Todd Collins and the dubious possibilities of Colt Brennan stepping up into that role. A proven veteran who is young enough and who can push Campbell for the starting position only makes sense. It can onl make both quarterbacks better.

Posted by: periculum | January 24, 2009 7:54 PM | Report abuse

ESPN reporting that Anquon Boldin may be traded in the offseason

Do ya'll think we shoud make a run at Anquon Boldin this offseason?

Posted by: rickyroge | January 24, 2009 8:03 PM | Report abuse

It's gonna go to the person he best knows. Which seems like the dude he worked with in College.

Thanks ITTDGY from earlier about all that snazzy stuff......

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 24, 2009 8:07 PM | Report abuse

He is Alge Crumpler-lite ...........

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009 5:26 PM

Or better yet, he's a Heavy Lager version of Antionio Gates........

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 24, 2009 8:11 PM | Report abuse

Whoever gets the job it will be based on potential, not accomplishments.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 24, 2009 7:17 PM

TE here your answer:

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/24/jets-add-more-coaches/

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 24, 2009 8:15 PM | Report abuse

Rocky - I saw that too. Yes, I think he will def be gone. He gaureenteed his ticket out last week.

I say Rogers for Boldin Straight up. If we did that, someone would have to be cut. That person would be ARE. So, maybe we include DThomas in the trade as well...........

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 24, 2009 8:17 PM | Report abuse

HASTY SENIOR BOWL OBSERVATIONS

Three o-lineman stand out (at least from what I can see):

Watkins-rt UF
Mack-c/g UC
Caldwell-c/g Bama
Oher-lt Ole Miss
Unger-c Oregon
Wood-c/g

It goes without saying that Oher-lt Ole Miss, might be gone at pick 13. The guy is a killa.

I also like:

Larry English-de/lb N. Ill. (he's a good run stopper. He can play standing or with his hand up.)

James Davis-rb Clemson
Victor Harris-cb VaTech
Clay Matthews-wlb USC

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009 8:32 PM | Report abuse

NO O LINEMAN WITH THE 13th PICK. NOT OUR MOST IMPOTANT NEED. MUST BE A DE. NOTHING ELSE.

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 24, 2009 8:37 PM | Report abuse

Trade for Boldin...?

Why...?

A run heavy team like the Skins wouldn't throw the ball his way enough to make having him worthwhile, especially since you already have Moss/Cooley to throw to as well.

And who replaces Rogers, btw?

That means another pick or sal cap money goes in a direction it doesn't need to.

The simple thing is to start fixing the o-line.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009 8:37 PM | Report abuse

4thfloor

I think a linebacker who can put his hand on the ground and blitz or stand up and stop the run should be the 13th pick.

Somebody has got to replace what Marcus Washington used to bring the Skins D.

And the Skins also need a weak side backer who can cover elite tight ends.

Next season, the Skins face some good AFC tight ends, and presently Rocky M. is the weakest link in pass coverage.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009 8:42 PM | Report abuse

ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY WRONG. HOW OLD ARE EVANS, GOLSTON
and MONTGOMERY? THEY ARE YOUNG!!!! YOU DON'T HAVE ONE GUY ON THE OLINE LIKE THEM. ONLY HEYER WHO IS NOT A REAL STARTING TACKLE. MORE OF A SWINGMAN. YOU ALSO HAVE ROB JACKSON AT DE. YOU HAVE CARTER. YOU CAN RESIGN TAYLOR FOR LESS FOR A YEAR OR TWO.

YOU HAVE N-O-T-H-I-N-G AT OL OTHER THAN RHINEHART who so far hasn't been able to cut it.

NO TO DE. SIGN AN FA LB or DE. DRAFT OL, TACKLE, GUARD, CENTER. Its boring to you but it must be done this year.

"NO O LINEMAN WITH THE 13th PICK. NOT OUR MOST IMPOTANT NEED. MUST BE A DE. NOTHING ELSE.

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 24, 2009"

Posted by: periculum | January 24, 2009 9:24 PM | Report abuse

"I think a linebacker who can put his hand on the ground and blitz or stand up and stop the run should be the 13th pick.

Somebody has got to replace what Marcus Washington used to bring the Skins D."

Sign someone like Bart Scott. DRAFT OL.

Posted by: periculum | January 24, 2009 9:26 PM | Report abuse

"And who replaces Rogers, btw?

That means another pick or sal cap money goes in a direction it doesn't need to.

The simple thing is to start fixing the o-line.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009"

Both hard truths you folks are going to have to accept. The Ravens had 53 draft picks from 2003. The skins only 23. Who do you think is better off right now?

Posted by: periculum | January 24, 2009 9:28 PM | Report abuse

NO D-LINE WITH THE 13TH PICK. IF THE TACKLE ISN'T THERE GRAB THE CENTER/GUARD, FOCUS ON THE REAL LEAK. ITS IN THE O-LINE.

Posted by: periculum | January 24, 2009 9:30 PM | Report abuse

NO O LINEMAN WITH THE 13th PICK. NOT OUR MOST IMPOTANT NEED. MUST BE A DE. NOTHING ELSE.

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 24, 2009 8:37 PM | Report abuse

Wow, 4th, I usually agree with you. But I think DE is our 4th need, not 1st.

I think we use our #13 pick on one of the top 4 OT's, whoever is on the board. If they are gone, I go with SLB or Raji. We can get through this year with the DE's already on the roster. Not only that, but in Blatche's scheme, DE's have to control their lanes, so a big rushing DE in not going to work in our scheme.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 24, 2009 9:34 PM | Report abuse

peri

Folks wouldn't be complaining about the 13th pick if the Skins still had the 2nd and 6th round picks burned in order to get J. Taylor.

Having the second round pick would allow the Skins to take a dt or monster run stopping 'backer with the 1st, and then use the 2nd and the 3rd on o-linemen.

But, they don't have that pick, and so blogheads argue about the 4 they have like they were the last beers in the frig and everybody wants to drink.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009 9:39 PM | Report abuse

But, they don't have that pick, and so blogheads argue about the 4 they have like they were the last beers in the frig and everybody wants to drink.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009 9:39 PM | Report abuse

C'mon, Moe. Be a sport and at least share one of them.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 24, 2009 10:19 PM | Report abuse

GroverCleveland80, that was exactly what I was thinking. This seems like a knee jerk reaction to correcting the wide receiver jackoff we had in the draft. A second round draft pick seems really high for a player with maybe two years left.

Posted by: Fred | July 20, 2008 7:24 PM

I said it on the day we traded for J Taylor, and I'll say it again. We should never have traded a 2nd for Taylor. And I didn't even lnow at the time that a 6th was included.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 24, 2009 10:42 PM | Report abuse

lsskinsfan wrote: "what do Seneca Wallace and Shaun Hill have in common? They both had better years then Jason Campbell last year."

Huh? Here's the comparison:
Wallace: 141 of 242 (58,3%)for 1532 yds, a 6.3 yard average, 11 TDs, and 3 INTs.
Hill: 181 of 288 (61.8%)for 2046 yds, a 7.1 avg, 13 TDs and 8 interceptions.
Campbell: 315 of 506 (62.3%) for 3245 yds, a 6.4 avg, 13 TDs and 6 interceptions.

Campbell was below average in TDs given how much he played, but he was also outstanding at avoiding turnovers, which is probably as important.

I confess I don't get the persistent criticism of Campbell. He's showing clear improvement season over season. He hasn't had the early success of a Matt Ryan or a Roethlisberger, but how many have? Joe Flacco is getting tons of praise for what really constitutes rather ordinary production on a very strong team. And he completely fell apart in the playoffs.

I think it's just that old-fashioned NFL disease, Blame the QB. Campbell's neither the best nor the worst, but he's plenty good enough to take a good team into the playoffs.

Posted by: Samson151 | January 24, 2009 11:15 PM | Report abuse

Khayat or Wachenheim? Wachenheim or Khayat? Anyone up here have any strong opinions about either of these two? I mean, look at their credentials and tell me whether an OC from Liberty College or a QC coach has done the most with tight ends. Whoever gets the job it will be based on potential, not accomplishments.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 24, 2009 7:17 PM | Report abuse
_________________

Let's have Zorn put his band together and take the Redskins to the top of the BCS.

Posted by: Xlnt | January 24, 2009 11:28 PM | Report abuse

"Joe Flacco is getting tons of praise for what really constitutes rather ordinary production on a very strong team. And he completely fell apart in the playoffs."
Samnson151..
_________________________________

Thats what winning does. It doesn't matter really how a QB really plays, if your team is winning, QB is the easiest position to hype. The announcers will latch on to a QB of a winning team and hype him whether he's good or not.

Posted by: 6-2StackMonster | January 24, 2009 11:30 PM | Report abuse

With the 13th pick in the first round the Skins need a game changer. Be that a monster on D line L backer or O line. Of those 3 positions, who is the biggest beast left on the board at 13? Pick him.

Posted by: edvar | January 25, 2009 12:04 AM | Report abuse

We needs to get that Loadbolt dude from OK. Our load needs a bolt to get it going.

Posted by: AntonChigurh | January 25, 2009 12:04 AM | Report abuse

I'v seen Raji of BC play twice and don't want him. Mayock keeps saying he can't be blocked. But what he can be is steered, or guided in the direction the bocker wants him to go. Even Mayock as ripping him today.

What might happen is if three of the four top OT's are gone by 13, the skins can extract some good picks for that #13.

Thanks to inept trading, the skins only have one first day pick and need more (only two rounds on day one, now I understand.)

A lower first round and a relatively high second round would be nice, and coude be spent on INTERIOR OLinemen.

While guards are thin this year, there's a bunch of centers who can have have played guard in the Senior Bowl.

With the third rounder, perhaps an LB or defensive lineman.

Of course, the wrong people are picking, so who am I kidding?

Probably the best move is to trade the high picks for as many 6th and seventh rounders as they can get.


Posted by: TheCork | January 25, 2009 1:06 AM | Report abuse

+++But, they don't have that pick, and so blogheads argue about the 4 they have like they were the last beers in the frig and everybody wants to drink.

Posted by: MistaMoe+++


Yeah, the trouble started when they sent Vinny out to buy the beer and he came back with a cases of Miller Lite, two sixers of Blatz and a 40 of Olde English.

Posted by: TheCork | January 25, 2009 1:10 AM | Report abuse

Folks wouldn't be complaining about the 13th pick if the Skins still had the 2nd and 6th round picks burned in order to get J. Taylor.

Having the second round pick would allow the Skins to take a dt or monster run stopping 'backer with the 1st, and then use the 2nd and the 3rd on o-linemen.

But, they don't have that pick, and so blogheads argue about the 4 they have like they were the last beers in the frig and everybody wants to drink.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 24, 2009"

Agreed. I think they paid way too much and too dearly for Taylor. That said I still believe the guy is could do some great things for this team. However, his time is indeed limited because of his age.

And then you are only looking at the near term effects. In one of my earlier posts I showed that since 2003 the Ravens had 53 draft picks. Around 30% were used for interior linemen. But almost 50% in the first 3 rounds were for interior linemen. On both offense and defense. In that span they have drafted 3 centers!!!

The Jasons apparently saw my post and took it a few steps further going all the way back to 2000. In that span the Ravens have drafted FOUR centers.

The Redskins ONLY HAD 23 picks since 2003. They have only used around 25% on interior linemen. 22% in the top 3 picks.

ITS TIME TO AY THE PIPER. We need to use ALL 4 picks on OL because of the gross negligence of the past decade. Its just the way it is.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 3:54 AM | Report abuse

"A lower first round and a relatively high second round would be nice, and coude be spent on INTERIOR OLinemen."

Terrell Suggs: " I can't believe they brought out that 6 foot nothing 300 pounder to block at tackle. Cooley: "we had no choice." Terrell Suggs: "Yeah, you were depleted".

WE ARE DEPLETED,

Defense finishes FOURTH IN THE NFL ... our OL DEPLETED,
SO WHO DO YOU DRAFT AGAIN???

YOU CAN'T JUST DRAFT ONE. LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO 3rd rounder Rhinehart. Not to mention Fred Davis who was chosen higher. And those underachieving receivers they picked.

YOU NEED TO GET FOUR OL IN THE DRAFT and pray, really pray that at least one out of five becomes a starter (the fifth would be Rhinehart). Hopefully more ... but given the past decade of choices at this position you can't raise expectations ... one would be wonderful if hit happens at this point.

Its just the way it is. Its time to tighten the belt, sack cloth and ashes. OL OL OL then if we are really luck next year you can look at the DL and skill positions.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 4:02 AM | Report abuse

I think we use our #13 pick on one of the top 4 OT's, whoever is on the board.
............

Posted by: frediefritz | January 24, 2009 9:34 PM

But we already have 2 Starting caliber Tackles.

Sameuls and Heyer.

If yu picked a tackle that high, it would have to be a LT, but Sameuls will be at that position atleast another 3-4 years.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009 7:51 AM | Report abuse

Assistant coach at Liberty University ... isn't Liberty University the one created by Jerry Falwell? Maybe I'm getting this wrong ... if not, maybe we'll be seeing more of the Hail Mary Pass? [Or maybe its just the Important Mother pass; I'm don't follow the dogma very closely.]

Posted by: dcsween | January 25, 2009 8:34 AM | Report abuse

what do Seneca Wallace and Shaun Hill have in common?

They both had better years then Jason Campbell last year. Not to mention the rookie matt Ryan at ATL.


Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 24, 2009 6:49 PM | Report abuse

???? Not sure what calculus you are using to declare that Wallace/Hill had "better" years than JC.

Wallace has had the opportunity to learn the SAME OFFENSE for the past several years of his career. (A luxury JC has not had). So it is no surprise that he steps in and does a decent job.

Hill played well for part of the season. Just wait until he gets enough starts in an offense where defenses can get a book on him.

As I've argued plenty of times up here, JC NEEDS A CHANCE TO DEVELOP IN AN OFFENSE. He's clearly not the kind of QB that can just step in and light it up like Matt Ryan or Kurt Warner, but that does not mean that he cannot develop into a great franchise QB. Guys like Steve McNair, Drew Bress and Matt Hasselbeck had some very pedestrian years in the league before things clicked and they became perennial ProBowl QBs. They also had several consecutive years in a system.

What we need is some honest true-blue stability for JC to learn an offense.

We do not need to keep trying to find lighting in a bottle.

Posted by: p1funk | January 25, 2009 8:34 AM | Report abuse

The guy in charge of "offensive quality control" for the Skins the last two years is getting promoted? I think we have stumbled on an oversight in Dan and Vin's evaluation process.

Posted by: hz9604 | January 25, 2009 8:36 AM | Report abuse

ITS TIME TO AY THE PIPER. We need to use ALL 4 picks on OL because of the gross negligence of the past decade. Its just the way it is.

Posted by: periculum

Well said, bro'. It really makes sense to take 4 lineman as one thing noticable about the Senior Bowl was the outright dominance of the South team's o-line.

There were about 4 interior linemen who could play both guard and center:

Mack-c/g UC
Caldwell-c/g Bama
Unger-c Oregon
Wood-c/g

If one of the elite rt is availiable at 13, the Skins should take the guy.

From there, it's obvious one/two of these flexible c/g types should be selected. And there probably are other guys like them who'll be there in rounds 3, 4 who the Skins should grab.

Again: emphasis on should.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 8:45 AM | Report abuse

ESPN reporting that Anquon Boldin may be traded in the offseason

Do ya'll think we shoud make a run at Anquon Boldin this offseason?

Posted by: rickyroge | January 24, 2009 8:03 PM

You're kidding right? The guy would be more unhappy in DC than he was in Arizona. If he comes here he'd be a third receiver, at best, sitting on the bench watching Malcolom Kelly and Devin Thomas make plays. At least, I think that's the way Cork has sized up our two second round picks from last year's draft.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 25, 2009 9:14 AM | Report abuse

The more I ponder this objectively the more I'm convinced this team won't be a serious contender for 2-3 years. With their paltry number of draft picks, and limited cap space, multiplied by years of draft/free agent failure, you're not going to 'fix' this problem in one season. Assuming the Cowgirls fall completely apart next year, at best the 'Skins finish 3rd in the division with maybe a 9-7 record. "Playoffs? PLAYOFFS? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? PLAYOFFS?" They will not 'fix' their o-and-d line problems in one year; Portis will be one more year older, and the longer a cancer hangs around untreated the worse it makes everything around it. By the time this team is 'ready' to compete Jason Campbell would be 6-7 years into the league, right when he should be playing and producing at a Pro-Bowl level. A shame that such talent would be wasted on a dreadful organizaiton.

Is there any one player or unit on the 'Skins that other teams fear/must game plan? Maybe Cooley, or Moss, but with a weak supporting cast you can take them away somewhat easily. Remember that great play JC made in the New Orleans game, launching that beautiful deep ball to Moss? Last time we saw that all season. You don't see Rothelesburger, Flacco, Manning, or any other strong-armed qb dinking and dunking; even West Coasted McNabb will let a few go deep. Maybe JC can't fling it deep, and I also mean 20-30 yard routes, 'cause the o-line doesn't hold up enough.

This team is not playoff contender talented, and won't be where it counts for a while. After predicting 10-6, or even 11-5 last year, I see this team has a long, long way to go to be at the Steeler/Titan/Raven /Colt/Patriot/Giant level, and is even behind the Falcons, Dolphins, Cardinals (duh), Bears and Vikings.

Face it; the Skins are a bottom-tier team, and aren't getting better overnight.

Posted by: pdfordiii | January 25, 2009 9:15 AM | Report abuse

But we already have 2 Starting caliber Tackles.

Sameuls and Heyer.

If yu picked a tackle that high, it would have to be a LT, but Sameuls will be at that position atleast another 3-4 years.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009 7:51 AM

They are both capable of starting but at Samuels age and Heyers experience and production can you count on them for the whole season. Plus if you can upgrade RT with one of the 4 highest rated guys that should be able to start from day 1 you do it. Then you have Heyer as a backup to both tackle spots. Seems like you think Heyer is a very good player. He's average and may get better.

That is unless you want to keep scoring 10 points a game.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | January 25, 2009 9:24 AM | Report abuse

Assistant coach at Liberty University ... isn't Liberty University the one created by Jerry Falwell?

Posted by: dcsween | January 25, 2009 8:34 AM |

Yes, a Baptist school founded in 1971. BUT, the football program ain't too shabby. They went 10-2 last year and were ranked 14th nationally in their NCAA division.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 25, 2009 9:27 AM | Report abuse

posse

The big training camp story should be the FO people pimping Heyer to challenge Samuels.

Samuels' days are numbered given his chronic knee issues, and moving on to a younger, cheaper guy with Heyer's length and pass protection ability would be ideal about right now.

And even if Heyer doesn't beat out Samuels--which won't happen this year--guess what?: you have some insight about how well he plays lt and a more than capable back up.

You have to hope the Skins are able to draft a strong rt at pick 13 (or at least bring in a young vet FA), start Rhino at lg, draft a flexible c/g type for the '10 season, and get another season of health out of Rabach and Thomas.

The would be the easiest and simplest path to take in order to rebuild to o-line, a job which should 2-3 seasons.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Check out this Giants fan...

1:30 is classic.

SJK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-6Tn0Ie-AQ

Posted by: swowra | January 24, 2009 6:21 PM ============================================
That's one way to brighten the day!
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | January 25, 2009 10:47 AM | Report abuse

But we already have 2 Starting caliber Tackles.

Sameuls and Heyer.

If yu picked a tackle that high, it would have to be a LT, but Sameuls will be at that position atleast another 3-4 years.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009 7:51 AM | Report abuse

The tackles are the most important OL, the hardest to replace. I'm tempted to go after Jordan Gross for that reason, but I don't think we can afford him.

Samuels has bad knees, but he still played at an all-pro level this year. I want a stud who can play at RT now, will eventually move to LT. Heyer can be our long-term RT. JJ will be on the team, but he is a back-up. But that would be 2 strong OT's and 2 strong backups.

I'm presuming that Rino will play LG. There are several good C/G prospects we can get in the 3rd round.

I would use picks 5 & 6 on SLB, KR/PR, other areas of need.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 11:00 AM | Report abuse

Isn't Khayat also the one who called 12 men on the field last year that got us to the playoffs....Khayat also played tightend in NFL and Europe...Khayat is one

Posted by: kmpower | January 25, 2009 11:03 AM | Report abuse

PFW mock draft
Jan.25

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Extras/2008/mock2329.htm

Oher and Britton are projected in the 20's as of right now, which I'm sure will change. But if there is anyway they'll last that long, than trading down is a definite option.

Posted by: ga8085 | January 25, 2009 11:27 AM | Report abuse

ga8085

Trading down for linemen is something a lot of teams will want to do as there are so many good, versitile o-linemen.

The hope is that some of the juniors/skill players are so good that some team that picks 20-32 sees a guy it wants, becomes a willing partner.

Trading down works only if there is a willing partner. Saying it and having it happen without a partner who'll give up, let's say, a fifth round to move up to 13 is another thing.

Of course, the FO could sweeten such a deal by dangling a pick in the '10 draft to get a higher (2-3) pick this year to maximize the effort to trade down.

Having a low 1st round pick and a 2 or additional 3rd round pick would allow the FO to get a rt, a g/c type and dt in the top rounds giving the team three potential starters in positions of need.

Yes, giving up a future pick for help now is a habit the Madden GM complains about, but this year, maybe it's a habit we shouldn't break as it would start the team in the right direction: finding young linemen who can play right away.

Some old habits don't have to die hard.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 12:05 PM | Report abuse

That draft seems kind of wacky.

Clay Matthews in the 1st round?

WalterFootball has us taking him in the 3rd:

80. Washington Redskins: Clay Matthews, OLB, USC
It looks like Marcus Washington is going to be let go for cap reasons. The Redskins will need help at strongside linebacker.

P.S. Here are two players that Washington interviewed at the Senior Bowl: Clay Matthews, Patrick Chung

Also, I find it hard to believe Unger will be picked before Mack, Britton before Oher, and that Beanie Wells will be a top 10 pick.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | January 25, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Wow.

No way we go with an OT with the 13th pick.

Jansen was drafted as a RT and stayed as a great RT until his season ending injuries kick in......

We have a gem of an UDFA Rookie that we found in Heyer. Get the dude in there. He played well when we went to the playoffs.

You guys sound like JLa who said this dude wouldn't be good, but Heyer already proved that theory dead in the water his rookie year.

Why waste a high draft pick when you have 2 starting caliber OTs on the squad??w

That does not make sense....

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009 12:23 PM | Report abuse

Yes, giving up a future pick for help now is a habit the Madden GM complains about, but this year, maybe it's a habit we shouldn't break as it would start the team in the right direction: finding young linemen who can play right away.

Some old habits don't have to die hard.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 12:05 PM

Win now! Win now! Win now!

People are already predicting the 'Skins will give up 2010 picks for 2009 picks. The reason is that both Vinny and Zorn realize their time is running out and unless they do better next year than this, they will be gone.

Do I want to give up future picks (2010 first rounder for 2009 second rounder) to save Vinny and Jim? No.

The only one of these future pick trades that I can think of that has worked was the one to move up and grab Cooley. Maybe there were others, but I think we gave up too much for Rocky Mac and for Jason Campbell.

I, personally, would prefer that we meet our needs in free agency and, unless the draft breaks our way, trade 2009 picks for 2010 picks.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 25, 2009 12:25 PM | Report abuse

Why waste a high draft pick when you have 2 starting caliber OTs on the squad??

That does not make sense....

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009 12:23 PM
=============================================
Did we watch the same team last season, 4th?

Jansen was responsible for plenty of poor pass protection even before his injury. Yet, he still kept the job ahead of Heyer.

Chris Samuels had the triceps injury and his 3rd left knee operation. Will he come back as the Chris Samuels of old, or as old Chris Samuels?

Taking an O.T. high in the draft is becoming the rule now a days. It's because you need those guys...note that we can hardly even think about signing Jordan Gross because of the money he will command.

I'd agree you can find good players lower down, but it's a numbers game. Gambling around with lower picks is fine when you have your starting 5 set, but I don't think we have that option any longer.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | January 25, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse

Hey RI Brethren,

Here is a list of Free Agents...Let's go SHOPPING!!!!

QB

Kurt Warner
Kyle Boller
Patrick Ramsey
Jeff Garcia
Kerry Collins

RB

Brandon Jacobs
Darren Sproles
Derrick Ward

WR

Bobby Engram
T.J. Houshmenzhadeh
Dante Hall
Amani Toomer
Devry Henderson

OL

Jordan Gross
Matt Birk
Mike Goff
Jeff Saturday
Mark Taushcer
Khalif Barnes

DL

Julius Peppers
Albert Haynesworth
Tank Johnson
Jonathan Babineaux

LB

Terrell Suggs
Karlos Dansby
Bart Scott

Who you got?

SICWIDIT'S GOT:
Sproles
Gross
Hayensworth (?)
Birk


HAVE AT IT!!!!

Posted by: rickyroge | January 25, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Here's my rule for free agency...

I say pay for youth and production especially at key positions like OL, DE, CB or LB

Posted by: rickyroge | January 25, 2009 12:46 PM | Report abuse

The last time I can remember Jansen as a great tackle was 2005, maybe 2006 when Betts was tearing it up at year end. The dude is a turnstyle and would be cut if he wasn't inked to a stupid extension guaranteeing him 10M.

I don't think we should reach for a tackle if the best are off the board by 13 but I certainly won't be pissed if thats the way they go.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | January 25, 2009 12:51 PM | Report abuse

"Wow.

No way we go with an OT with the 13th pick.

Jansen was drafted as a RT and stayed as a great RT until his season ending injuries kick in......

We have a gem of an UDFA Rookie that we found in Heyer. Get the dude in there. He played well when we went to the playoffs.

You guys sound like JLa who said this dude wouldn't be good, but Heyer already proved that theory dead in the water his rookie year.

Why waste a high draft pick when you have 2 starting caliber OTs on the squad??w

That does not make sense....

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009"

Wow, looks like you haven't been watching or even reading what Jason posts?

Jansen is done. He won't start next year Heyer will unless they draft someone. He will be a backup. Heyer won the job and lost it to injury.

Samuels is coming off yet another serious injury that place him on IR, second year in a row. Yet another knee surgery. The ages of the 2 starting guards make them suspect to say the least. Yes, there is a center. But if he is so good why did the Raven's draft 3 centers after him? There are no reasonable backups.

THE SKINS D-LINE DEFEATED THE NFC CONFERENCE CHAMP. DEFEATED THE RUNNER UP TWICE. FINSHED 4TH!!! in the entire
NFL.YOU DO NOT DESPERATELY NEED A DE. NOT YET. And those needs on defense can be filled through careful use of free agency. That side of the ball should be preserved not completely liquidated.

The offense did not fare so well as everyone witnessed. Too many want to pin this on Campbell. That is a huge mistake. One that Snidely and Vinnie may unfortunately make.

That line is done. They gave it their all, their best. Samuels should at this point be moved to right tackle.

Atlanta drafted a starting Left Tackle and a starting QB in last year's draft. Look where they ended up. Yes, the skins lost Sean Taylor. But they lost Michael Vick, their best athlete.

The defense is fine. They need some linebacking, maybe a third DE if they decide not to resign Taylor. I would resign him (for a lot less). I think you would get a 13-14 sack year out of him. And Carter would conceivably get 10. So, then you just need a linebacker or 2 from FA.

They just don't have enough draft picks to play russian roulette with their QB by drafting a DE which they absolutely do not desperately need. Again they beat the Eagles twice!!! The Cardinals.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 12:53 PM | Report abuse

Did we watch the same team last season, 4th?

Jansen was responsible for plenty of poor pass protection even before his injury. Yet, he still kept the job ahead of Heyer.

.............
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | January 25, 2009 12:37 PM

That was the coaches' fault. Not the player.........

Replace Heyer with JAnsen.

If Sameuls goes down, move Heyer over and stick Jansen in there.

You'd hope in the offseason most injuries will heal........

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009 12:53 PM | Report abuse

"HAVE AT IT!!!!

Posted by: rickyroge | January 25, 2009"

That's not a complete list. Are these your choices for good FA?

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 12:55 PM | Report abuse

And it isn't just at tackle, its at guard and center as well. I think they need to use all 4 on OL preclude "draft the best athlete" available. They have little choice. They just don't have the cap space to do it in FA. Particularly with Jansen and Samuel's deals. Heyer makes a great swing man. He is not a true starter.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 12:58 PM | Report abuse

periculum....

Good analysis...I think the criticism the Skins take for the DE position is overrated. Our defense has been top 10 four out of the last five years. I'd like to see them develop a younger player already on the roster or get one for a reasonable contract in FA. Although you can't keep him for 8.5 million I don't think Taylor is done yet.

I say restock to O-Line with youth and depth.

Posted by: rickyroge | January 25, 2009 12:59 PM | Report abuse

No it's not the complete list...just some sexy names that jump out. I'm not advocating for any of them except maybe for Sproles, Gross, or Birk.

Posted by: rickyroge | January 25, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

"If Sameuls goes down, move Heyer over and stick Jansen in there.

You'd hope in the offseason most injuries will heal........

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009"

SUGGS: "I couldn't believe they stuck that 6'0" 300 pounder in theri to block me". COOLEY:"we had no choice". SUGGS: "yeah you were depleted".

Show me one offense in the NFL that said that about our D-line.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

He is not a true starter.

Posted by: periculum


Please enlighten me by providing the basis of this opinion.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | January 25, 2009 1:04 PM | Report abuse

So its the coaches fault that Jansen sucks in pass protection? I don't want to see Jansen on the field ever again. Ignoring a tackle pretty much means we will be seeing him next year at some point since Samuels and Heyer won't make it through all 16 games most likely.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | January 25, 2009 1:09 PM | Report abuse

Why waste a high draft pick when you have 2 starting caliber OTs on the squad??w

That does not make sense....

Posted by: 4thFloor | January 25, 2009 12:23 PM | Report abuse
Good question. Samuels is 32, may have 1-2 more good years at LT, if he recovers from his knee problems.

But what if he can't recover properly. Now is the time to restock. We should have a shot at #13 for one of four premier OT's. Don't pass up the opportunity to get a good one now.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 1:40 PM | Report abuse

F Liberty....gross....

Promote the inside guy.

Heyer is not a LT in the NFL...maybe a RT...willing to give him a shot.

Posted by: chrislarry | January 25, 2009 1:53 PM | Report abuse

I'm still intrigued by Jordan Gross. It's probably going to take $10 mill a yer to sign him.

But we would be getting the answer to our OL problems. LT can play either LT or RT. Rehab Samuels, and play him at RT when he is ready. Use Heyer early if need be. Put Gross at LT. Rinehart at LG, Rabach and Thomas. Draft a C/G in 3rd round.

Starting OL: Gross(all-pro), Rino, Rabach, Thomas, Samuels(all-pro).

Back-ups: Heyer and Jansen at OT, 3rd rd pick, Geisinger, Will Montgomery at G/C.

Then we could use 1st rd pick to either trade back or pick a top-rated LB like Sintim or Lauranitis.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Davis is like a heavy, straight Jerry Smith

Posted by: ElYeah | January 25, 2009 2:05 PM | Report abuse

thunder

Clay Matthews-olb USC is a 3-4 linebacker and the Skins don't use a 3-4.

Larry English-olb N. Ill. looks more like the type of linebacker the Skins need as has he has a more compact powerful build and in the Senior Bowl, was all over the field.

Nothing against Matthews, he has speed and a lean frame that would cause him to be eaten alive by any team with a run-blocknig monster tight end. He's a weak side backer and the Skins a guy who can stop the run or mash a tight end in coverage.

Finally, Heyer is a back up tackle, y'all.

All this, "Move him here, move him there..." stuff omits the fact that on the right side early on in the season, he wasn't a strong enough run blocker (which is why Jansen kept the spot), but on the left, he pass protected very well after Samuels got hurt.

Heyer is a back up to both positions at best.

Finding a starting rt in FA is gonna cost money. Drafting a stud to start on day one with J Bugel training him up is a smarter, cheaper why to go.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 2:30 PM | Report abuse

Jordan Gross is 28 years old and will turn 29 during the season. That means you'll have to at least sign him to a 5 year deal for big money. So while everyone is complaining about having 32 and 33 year old lineman now, they want to sign a guy who will be 34 when his contract is done. You guys really confuse the hell out me sometimes.

Posted by: 6-2StackMonster | January 25, 2009 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Drafting a stud to start on day one with J Bugel training him up is a smarter, cheaper why to go.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 2:30 PM

Moe,

Who has Bugel "trained up" recently? He did alright with Dockery, but Rinehart didn't get on the field. Heyer remains a project. There were those two we drafted a few years ago, Molinaro and ?, who are out of football right now.

Now maybe we've been asking him to make a silk purse out of a sow's rear, but on the other hand, anyone can make a silk purse out of silk. I guess my point is that I don't see a reason to believe that Bugel has magic.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 25, 2009 2:50 PM | Report abuse

HAVE AT IT!!!!

Posted by: rickyroge | January 25, 2009 12:42 PM

Who's your punter, your place kicker?

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 25, 2009 2:52 PM | Report abuse

Finding a starting rt in FA is gonna cost money. Drafting a stud to start on day one with J Bugel training him up is a smarter, cheaper why to go.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 2:30 PM
===========================================
That's what I'm hoping for, as well.

P.S. I didn't see the Senior Bowl, here's some iggles write-up about it.

We could use a fast past catcher/running back, if the opportunity comes a long.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | January 25, 2009 2:59 PM | Report abuse

Common Sense- This year is stocked at our positions of need, like LB, DL and OL. wouldnt it make sense then to sacrifice picks from next year for some extra picks this year.

Posted by: DaFunBunch | January 25, 2009 3:04 PM | Report abuse

TE, this is a serious question. When did you begin following/rooting for the Redskins?

Your take on Bugel is sorta weird. First of all they haven't really drafted many young lineman so sorta small sample size. Also Until last year Oline was a strength, even when injured (2007). Also "did ok" with Dockery...did you see the contract he signed? He did dso good with Dockery we couldnt afford to resign him. Have you seen are run game under Bugel?

Heyer, who was on the undrafted scrap heap, has been coached up to be a starter and even if he ends up mostly a back up it is a testament to Bugel not a detraction.

Also if the jury is out on Thomas/Kelly than it is on Reinhart as well, so you can't use that.

Basically, you are just wrong on Bugel, who along with Alex Gibbs is probably one of the best line coaches in NFL history, modern version included.

Posted by: chrislarry | January 25, 2009 3:11 PM | Report abuse

dafunbunch

This year is stocked at our positions of need, like LB, DL and OL. Wouldn't it make sense then to sacrifice picks from next year for some extra picks this year?

Posted by: DaFunBunch


It makes perfect sense to me.

If the Skins could pull off the aggressive draft 'trading down' scenario I posted earlier today, they'd leave the draft with 3 picks in the 1st three rounds.

Then, still having picks in rounds 4 and 5, they could select a wlb or c--or another lineman--and again fill positions of need.

Yes, they'll burn a high pick from the '10 draft, but they'll be on the road to replenishing the team with youth and depth at positions of need.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 3:12 PM | Report abuse

Oh also Alexander who Bugel helped groom into a dude that can play OFF/DEF/ST.....

Also lets not devalue the work getting milage outta the old guys especially coming back from injury....

yup Bugel sux!

Posted by: chrislarry | January 25, 2009 3:14 PM | Report abuse

I'm sorry.

Complaining about Bugel is blasphemy.

The guy has done an excellent job, and when you consider things in light of his losing his daughter, even if he hadn't, dealing with the personal issue while coaching allots him a pass.

Buges knows the Skins strenght: the running game. He and St. Joe put it together. Keeping him around and sowing him respect is very important.

The guy would have to do a lot wrong before I begin critizing him.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 3:21 PM | Report abuse

+++I think they paid way too much and too dearly for Taylor. That said I still believe the guy could do some great things for this team.

Posted by: periculum+++


Really? Did I miss the announcement that the NFL is holding a team dancing competition?

Posted by: TheCork | January 25, 2009 3:31 PM | Report abuse

+++If he comes here he'd be a third receiver, at best, sitting on the bench watching Malcolom Kelly and Devin Thomas make plays. At least, I think that's the way Cork has sized up our two second round picks from last year's draft.+++

Posted by: talent_evaluator

You get confused enough trying to do your own thinking. Please don’t try to do mine. (As always, we kid because we love…)

Posted by: TheCork | January 25, 2009 3:36 PM | Report abuse

t_e forget the sarcasm tag (/sarc)
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | January 25, 2009 3:40 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 24, 2009 6:49 PM | Report abuse

???? Not sure what calculus you are using to declare that Wallace/Hill had "better" years than JC. *****

I tried to copy and paste, but wapo has it held hostage.

www.nfl.com/stats is the site where anyone can find the data I referenced.

Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 25, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

yup Bugel sux!

Posted by: chrislarry | January 25, 2009 3:14 PM | Report abuse

No one has said Buges sux. T_E said Buges can't continue to take UFA's and 6 or 7 rd draft picks and make starters out of them.

I think it's also fair to say that Buges likes experienced OL's, not 1st or 2nd year guys.

If you give Buges book-end all-pros like Gross and Samuels, I guarantee you Buges would have a solid line in place for Sept 1.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 3:46 PM | Report abuse

+++I think they paid way too much and too dearly for Taylor. That said I still believe the guy could do some great things for this team.

Posted by: periculum+++


Really? Did I miss the announcement that the NFL is holding a team dancing competition?

Posted by: TheCork *********

maybe he'd be better used as a rover type, extra LB on certain downs?

Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 25, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

If you give Buges book-end all-pros like Gross and Samuels, I guarantee you Buges would have a solid line in place for Sept 1.

Posted by: frediefritz *****

and an injury to either leaves us in the same mess as this past year, no depth to speak of. I like Heyer, maybe a diamond in the rough keeper, but he's solid, not elite.

Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 25, 2009 3:50 PM | Report abuse

and an injury to either leaves us in the same mess as this past year, no depth to speak of. I like Heyer, maybe a diamond in the rough keeper, but he's solid, not elite.


Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 25, 2009 3:50 PM | Report abuse
An injury would leave us with Heyer & Jansen in reserve.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 4:42 PM | Report abuse

maybe he'd be better used as a rover type, extra LB on certain downs?


Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 25, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse
They used JT that way when they played the Iggles in Dec. Yes, it worked quite well.

Question for those of you that have tape of that game: Were we in fact playing a 3-4? Everyone has said that Blache can't coach a 3-4, but I think we were using it in Dec.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 4:45 PM | Report abuse

He was also outplayed by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Shaun Hill. I'm still scratching my head over the 150 yard performance in the last game of the season when absolutely nothing was on the line. I would have rather seen him throw 5 INTs in that game (trying to force the action). We've beaten that dead horse to a bloody pulp though.

The evidence will be conclusive next year.

Posted by: saqster | January 25, 2009 4:48 PM | Report abuse

We are much better served filling defensive needs at linebacker through FA, like dansby or vilma and maybe a vet reciever but then focus on oline and dline in the draft. if we can trade back to 25-30 and pick up an early 2nd I saw multiple mocks with some of the elite tackles down in the 20s, there's five of them so you can get better vlue down the board, and then get one of the two elite center prospects (mack, wood) both of whome could fill in at guad if needed then move to center in 2 years

Posted by: DaFunBunch | January 25, 2009 4:49 PM | Report abuse

Missed the Senior Bowl....?

Here's a quickie: the South's o-line was dominant. In fact, there are a lot of flexible c/g types who should be on the Skin's radar with the 3rd or 4th round pick.

There's an earlier post I submitted listing the linemen who look like players.

Larry English--lb N. Ill. is very good.

Rey Maualga-lb USC got a guy to fumble.

BJ Raji-nt Bos College played well.

Clay Matthews jr-lb USC looked good in open space. He's the kind of 3-4 long bodied guy hybrid defense teams like the cards/bucs/browns/jets/ravens/stillers/
iggles take and make all pros out of.

Victor Harris-cb VaTech stood out as did Alphonso Smith-cb Wake F.

A kid from Oregon named Chung stood out as a safety.

Pat White-qb WVU played well. The kid has an arm. He throw a very good deep ball for a touchdown. But it's a question if anybody will give him shot as he's only 6'0 tall.

The spread offense q-b, Harrell sucks. Rhett Bomar should graduate from college and get a job selling insurance or coaching guys who can play.

James Davis-rb Clemson would be a fine complimentary back for Portis, as would a kid named Sheets--but then again, I wonder if the backs were good or if the o-line dominant.

Brian Robiskie-wr Ohio State looked okay as did a wr from Oklahoma named Igelsias

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 4:53 PM | Report abuse

ESPN reporting that Anquon Boldin may be traded in the offseason

Do ya'll think we shoud make a run at Anquon Boldin this offseason?

Posted by: rickyroge | January 24, 2009 8:03 PM | Report abuse

NO! We already have plenty of overpaid players at the skill positions. If WRs were the key to championships, the Cardinals would have been to the last 2 Super Bowls and would have had a better record than 9-7 this year. Wisenhunt is from the Steelers.

If they trade Boldin, it will be for draft picks, line men or linebackers... not cornerbacks or another receiver (unless part of a package that includes picks, line men or linebackers). Let the Cowboys make a run at him.

Posted by: saqster | January 25, 2009 4:59 PM | Report abuse

fredie

Yeah, the Skins were in a 3-4 for long spells of the game against the iggles and it was his best game as a Skin.

They used him to shadow Westbrook or McNabb. The were in 4-3 before the offense set, then shifted the look right after McNabb began his snap count.

That's why using a confusion based attack works in the Skins favor: it screws up our tendencies and attacks blocking schemes and hot reads.

It also gets sacks and turnovers. (see ravens, stillers,...)

I hope the FO gets him to re-do his deal for upfront signing money or back end the money. Hey, they burned two picks on the guy, and I think if they bend Blache's scheme to fit what he does well, all the people who hate on the guy will be saying, " See, I told you they were right to bring him here."

And I'll be one of them.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

An injury would leave us with Heyer & Jansen in reserve.

Posted by: frediefritz ****

I think I mentioned Heyer in my post, Jansen, barring a miraculous recovery, is finished, IMHO.

Posted by: lsskinsfan | January 25, 2009 5:43 PM | Report abuse

You get confused enough trying to do your own thinking. Please don’t try to do mine. (As always, we kid because we love…)

Posted by: TheCork | January 25, 2009 3:36 PM |

Somebody's got to do it, and it looks like even Skippy's given up on helping you. (wkbwl)

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 25, 2009 5:55 PM | Report abuse

++++This year is stocked at our positions of need, like LB, DL and OL. Wouldn't it make sense then to sacrifice picks from next year for some extra picks this year?

Posted by: DaFunBunch


It makes perfect sense to me.

Posted by: MistaMoe+++

You’re both wrong, and here’s why. Some of us still hold out hope that Vinny Cerrato will be gone next year. Ergo, picks taken by NEXT year’s FO are likely to be much better players than those taken this year.

Job security is probably why Cerrato WILL trade future picks for ones in this year’s draft—he’s hoping to chase away candidates to replace him by making the future less bright..

Posted by: TheCork | January 25, 2009 6:13 PM | Report abuse

"ITS TIME TO PAY THE PIPER. We need to use ALL 4 picks on OL because of the gross negligence of the past decade. Its just the way it is." Posted by: periculum

George Young used to do something along those lines with the Giants from time to time -- load up on one area. Not all his picks, but several high ones.

That was back when you could afford to hold on to rookies longer (remember the Gibbs strategy? In effect redshirting them for a developmental year). Now they're expected to produce earlier.

Here's my guess: you use all four picks on O-linemen this year, you get one, or even zero, who produce as rookies.

Why? Because instead of depth, you're inadvertently creating a logjam at a couple positions. The rooks don't get on the field enough to make a difference (because they're not ready), and somebody gets hurt at another position (think linebacker, for one) where you're thin as cellophane.

Better to do it the way the Ravens did, using one of your higher choices a year on several areas, and saving your first rounders for whoever you think has star potential, regardless of position.

Of course, even with a balanced approach like that, you still need a lot of luck. Ask the Chiefs and Rams, who drafted last year's consensus best defensive players, Chris Long and Glenn Dorsey.

How'd the seasons go for them?

By the way, I think Jason Taylor has another year left in him, at a high level. That will make those lost choices hurt less. You saw it against Philadelphia near season's end -- that's a heck of a pass rusher. Too bad we didn't snare him three years ago, but then again, we wouldn't have been able to.

My guess is they draft one of those rush linebacker types, to fill two needs: an outside backer and a bigger rush. Plus that position is a little deeper with the emergence of Larry English.

But it's still a gamble. The draft always is. But they should be all right as long as they don't do something dumb, like sign Albert Haynesworth.

Posted by: Samson151 | January 25, 2009 6:25 PM | Report abuse

+++BJ Raji-nt Bos College played well.+++---Mista Moe

No really. He played so poorly even his biggest advocate, MikeMayock ripped him on air.

I haven't studied tape on the guy, but the two times I've seen him play, his problem is that as he rushes the passer--which he seems to do every play--he is easily steered out of the area he's supposed to cover. He is moved laterally very easily. Yesterday he was never in position to make the tackle, and a lot of real estate was gained over where he was supposed to be.

Maybe he's trying too hard to be a rusher. I do't' know. But he doesn't hold his ground. Maybe a good line coach can fix that. I can see him as a 3-4 Nose tackle, ordered to hold his ground, not pressure the QB except on obvious pass plays. But I would not see him with the Redskins.

I think PAT WHITE will go earlier than most think. So what if he's 6'0" H'e very mobile, has a canon arm, and doesn't fight dogs.

I'd love to see Wood (C/OG #60 yesterday) In the old Chartreuss and Ochre, but don't know if he's worth #13th overall. If they can trade down smartly, would loe to see them get Wood AND Mack rather than just use their first rounder for the #4 overal OT, whoevr he may be.

Posted by: TheCork | January 25, 2009 6:26 PM | Report abuse

i have no problem with that.. if the next russ grimm is available in the second round, i would trade next year's number one pick for a shot at him in a heartbeat.

the difference being that the skins werent afraid to play guys like mark may, joe jacoby and russ grimm in their first or second years in the nfl.. they had a very young jeff bostic and only starke who had age on him.. by year 2, the o line was totally dominating and built for the long haul.

something happened to bugel over the years. he lost his edge.. if he is insisting on having fabini in reserve, and hesitant to play guys like heyer or reinhart, then it either says the front office was completely flawed in selecting these guys for the team,
or he cant develop them like he used to..

either way, the lesson that should be employed is that having an aged offensive line is asking your line to grow weaker over the year, instead of stronger.. i love buges for what he has given to this team over the years.. but it looks like he has forgotten those things that made the redskins offensive lines so great during his first tenure..

Posted by: shally | January 25, 2009 6:32 PM | Report abuse

TheCork wrote: "I think PAT WHITE will go earlier than most think. So what if he's 6'0" H'e very mobile, has a canon arm, and doesn't fight dogs."

I was listening to a scout discuss his lousy week of practice. 'Scatter-armed', was the term employed. 'Can't see from the pocket', was another. He looked pretty good in the game, but most scouts don't even stay to watch that.

So his draft position may disappoint his fans.

Posted by: Samson151 | January 25, 2009 7:14 PM | Report abuse

fredie

Yeah, the Skins were in a 3-4 for long spells of the game against the iggles and it was his best game as a Skin.

They used him to shadow Westbrook or McNabb. The were in 4-3 before the offense set, then shifted the look right after McNabb began his snap count.

That's why using a confusion based attack works in the Skins favor: it screws up our tendencies and attacks blocking schemes and hot reads.

It also gets sacks and turnovers. (see ravens, stillers,...)

I hope the FO gets him to re-do his deal for upfront signing money or back end the money. Hey, they burned two picks on the guy, and I think if they bend Blache's scheme to fit what he does well, all the people who hate on the guy will be saying, " See, I told you they were right to bring him here."

And I'll be one of them.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 25, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

I would love to be one of them that said "I was wrong" about JT. I thought we overreacted to losing Daniels and Buzbee. We had several others that could have stepped up.

A Second round last year is like a 3rd this year. So it wasn't quite as bad as it sounded. But I just don't like signing older players.

Now, I would make an exception for Jordan Gross, who will be 29 when next season starts. He hasn't had any significant injuries yet. So I think he could sovle a lot of our problems come Sept.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 7:15 PM | Report abuse

TheCork wrote: "I think PAT WHITE will go earlier than most think. So what if he's 6'0" H'e very mobile, has a canon arm, and doesn't fight dogs."

I was listening to a scout discuss his lousy week of practice. 'Scatter-armed', was the term employed. 'Can't see from the pocket', was another. He looked pretty good in the game, but most scouts don't even stay to watch that.

So his draft position may disappoint his fans.

Posted by: Samson151 | January 25, 2009 7:14 PM | Report abuse

Is PW the next Michael Vick? If so, let's keep him away from the dogs. Just saying, what if...

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 7:18 PM | Report abuse

"something happened to bugel over the years. he lost his edge.. if he is insisting on having fabini in reserve, and hesitant to play guys like heyer or reinhart, then it either says the front office was completely flawed in selecting these guys for the team,
or he cant develop them like he used to.."

The problem with this logic is, well then how do you explain Heyer? He was undrafted. Rhinehart was a tackle taken in the 3rd round. In Heyer's rookie year he was allowed to start for both Jansen and Samuels. When they went down they went to him.

In Rhinehart's case they preferred to activate Geisinger?

Rhinehart apparently did not pick it up or step up the way Heyer did in his first year. Yet he is a 3rd round pick.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 7:40 PM | Report abuse

"Here's my guess: you use all four picks on O-linemen this year, you get one, or even zero, who produce as rookies.

Why? Because instead of depth, you're inadvertently creating a logjam at a couple positions. The rooks don't get on the field enough to make a difference (because they're not ready), and somebody gets hurt at another position (think linebacker, for one) where you're thin as cellophane."

Hmmm, well under normal circumstance what you say makes sense and most teams would draft the best talent available.

However, in the Skin's case they have such a dearth of reasonable / healthy talent at all the positions along the O-Line a logjam would be a very good thing indeed. Hopefully minimally you get back-ups you aren't afraid to bring in as they were with Rhinehart.

And again, how do you explain Heyer, who in his rookie year was allowed to replace both starters at tackle and even start. There was a "logjam" at the position as I recall. FA's mostly, still he beat out some pretty good seasoned veterans. Including Jensen.

In this case I say more is good. The more rookies pushing the vets trying to break in, the better.

Its the price you pay for giving up so many picks with little in return. Unlike the Ravens who kept all or most of theirs and then were able to acquire even more.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 7:46 PM | Report abuse

"Job security is probably why Cerrato WILL trade future picks for ones in this year’s draft—he’s hoping to chase away candidates to replace him by making the future less bright..

Posted by: TheCork | January 25, 2009"

Even with 4 picks it is unnecessary to trade away any more picks. The holes on defense can be filled with FA's. The only way they should consider getting more picks is if they decide they have to trade Carlos Rogers. Not something I think they should do ... but
it does look like a possibility.

The focus should be on the OL. I think the play of the whole offense will immediately rise if they address this glaring hole. If the defense remains close to the level it is now that should be enough for a playoff drive.

However, maintaining the defense at this level will be difficult even if they do draft the DE everyone thinks they should. In fact the level may fall because the guy won't have the same skills and knowledge the guys he would replace have.

In the case of the OL, given the situations at tackle (and given how much Heyer has had to play ... even hurt), guard and center I can't see how they wouldn't improve with some decent picks in the draft. I think some decent players out of college would help push Rhinehart. In the end a lot of the Vets know their days are numbered with many expecting to be cut either in camp or June 1st.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 7:54 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: TWISI | January 25, 2009 7:54 PM | Report abuse

"Why waste a high draft pick when you have 2 starting caliber OTs on the squad??w

That does not make sense....

Posted by: 4thFloor"

Calling Heyer a "starting-caliber OT" is akin to calling Montgomery and Golston starting-caliber DTs. Yea we can get away with it for a few games, and if surrounded by superior talent these guys can be effective, but none of those guys are what you want starting in those positions. Great depth/rotational guys, but not serious starters for any elite team.

Posted by: psps23 | January 25, 2009 7:56 PM | Report abuse

"Somebody's got to do it, and it looks like even Skippy's given up on helping you. (wkbwl)

Posted by: talent_evaluator | January 25, 2009"

Well Spud, that should go to prove that I am not constantly "mono-blogging". In fact it does appear that "the Jasons" read one of my posts, did their own analysis and took things a few steps further.

I see no other alternative, given the salary cap, Samuel's, Jensen's, and Thomas's contracts, which are significant when combined, than to draft entirely OL this draft. And continue drafting OL next year (perhaps not the top pick, and not every pick). Unless a trade of Rogers acquires a decent pick or two in this year's draft. Then I can see adding someone like that receiver from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo (perhaps another Chris Gocong) who reportedly broke all of Moss's records. He is a second rounder from a small school. Should be a reasonably smart guy and a hard worker. Perhaps there are linebackers like that.

Honestly, I think they should consider Bart Scott, maybe a DE/DT in FA if they decide to release Griffin. And who knows what the cornerback situation will be if Rogers is gone. They may have to use the 13th pick on that if they can't sign hall and someone else.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 8:05 PM | Report abuse

In Rhinehart's case they preferred to activate Geisinger?

Rhinehart apparently did not pick it up or step up the way Heyer did in his first year. Yet he is a 3rd round pick.

Posted by: periculum | January 25, 2009 7:40 PM | Report abuse

No, I think when they selected players to be active, they were thinking about who could fill the most slots. Geisinger could fill in at both C and G. Rinehart was only a fill-in at G. So Geis was active, Rino was inactive.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 8:10 PM | Report abuse

If they can trade down smartly, would loe to see them get Wood AND Mack...

Cork. wrote. this.
Cork. wrote. this?

Posted by: daggar | January 25, 2009 8:42 PM | Report abuse

While the draft is deeper at OL this year, I think we can only get a starter if we draft 1st round. Why would I say that? Well, exhibit one is Reinhart. Plenty of hamsters here talking about how Reinhart will be great, plug him in as a starter next year, etc. Are you out of your minds? The guy didn't play a single snap this year. Even after other players went down. So why would anyone project him as a starter next year? Maybe evolving into a capable backup and growing into the position, but nothing else.

So any OT picked 3rd round or later could easily end up being as unproductive as Rhino, given the talent picking ability here (or feel free to criticize Bugel instead I guess).

So the only hope for starting OT is 1st round. Since there are basically 4 to 6 consensus choices, even VinnyDan can't screw that up. The other 3 picks probably won't amount to much anyway at least based on recent history (only comp picks appear to be any good, and Redskins won't be getting any this yr)

Posted by: zornskins2 | January 25, 2009 8:43 PM | Report abuse

Since there are basically 4 to 6 consensus choices, even VinnyDan can't screw that up.

*shiver*
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | January 25, 2009 9:24 PM | Report abuse

So the only hope for starting OT is 1st round. Since there are basically 4 to 6 consensus choices, even VinnyDan can't screw that up. The other 3 picks probably won't amount to much anyway at least based on recent history (only comp picks appear to be any good, and Redskins won't be getting any this yr)

Posted by: zornskins2 | January 25, 2009 8:43 PM | Report abuse

There is still a good chance that a good C/G will be available in the 3rd round. But I agree, the starting OT's will be gone i the first round.

Posted by: frediefritz | January 25, 2009 9:38 PM | Report abuse

A look at the offensive line:

Guys who you can't cut because of negative cap hits:
Samuels
Jansen
Thomas
Rabach

Other guys under contract:
Rinehart
Heyer
Will Montgomery
D'Anthony Batiste
Will Clark

Unsigned
Kendall
Fabini
Geisinger
Isaiah Ross
Rueben Riley
Ethan Albright

In 2008, the Skins kept 10 linemen including Albright, the long-snapper. So, what's the point?

The point is that there are basically three spots available on the roster and one or two of those won't dress on Sundays. Vinny wants his picks to make the team. (See last year.) So there is no way the 'skins will take more than two o-linemen in the draft - nor should they.

They will sign some free agents, draft one or two guys on o-line and maybe pick up a bunch of undrafted guys.

The problem is that they probably will pick up some undrafted guy like Heyer or Crummey and have to cut him because of this year's Justin Tryon, Colt Brennan, or Chad Rinehart was drafted.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 25, 2009 10:06 PM | Report abuse

That should read Devin Clark not Will.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 25, 2009 10:08 PM | Report abuse

I've never actually met a 'Devin,' yet this team has two.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 25, 2009 10:10 PM | Report abuse

The Devin is in the details.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | January 25, 2009 10:16 PM | Report abuse

I find it curious that the same people who defend JC say Heyer is not a starting caliber tackle. Campbell, a first round draft pick (at the expense of two picks), is given every benefit of the doubt or excuse for why he hasn't reached his potential. Heyer, an undrafted FA who plays as a rookie and wins the starting job in year two, gets talked about as if he's reached his full potential. He isn't finished developing either. He went undrafted because he tore his ACL in '05 (which as one can imagine affected his play when he returned after missing a whole season) not because he was believed to have lacked talent.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | January 25, 2009 10:25 PM | Report abuse

Periculum,

While you're passionate, you can't go OL with all the picks. The Jasons referenced teams that have been to the SB the last 6 years. We're not in the position to overload at one position. We have too many holes, especially with our core of talent starting to age. We NEED an OLB in the draft. We also need a Guard more than a tackle. Heyer can be more than servicable at RT but this is Thomas' last year. He needs to be replaced next year while Samuels should have 2-3 more Pro Bowl years left in him. Guard is a bigger need now than T and OLB is as well. Personally, I think DE is a bigger need as well. I know you've stated you think Carter and Taylor can get 24 sacks next year, but in a scheme and with a D Coordinator that totalled 27 last year I just don't see it. Plus, you're not going to have either in 3 years and Wilson, Jackson and Evans can't be your 3 ends in 2010.

Posted by: 6-2StackMonster | January 25, 2009 10:43 PM | Report abuse

Lh,

I don't see how defending Campbell, and saying Heyer is a back-up is inconsistent. Sure Heyer may have not reached his ceiling. He may continue to work out like a beast in the offseason and get stronger but right now he looks like a solid back-up tackle in a pass first offense. He could probably start for Eagles next year considering their aversion to running the ball. This team was built on running the ball and until it's built the other way or Heyer shows that he can move people in the running game, I don't see him starting.

As for Campbell, he's the only quarterback on the roster that can make all the throws. As much as you hate seeing him pat the ball, he is no Rob Johnson or Kyle Boller.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 25, 2009 11:31 PM | Report abuse

It is my assertion that Vinny will draft players that simply can make the roster. So I see one o-linemen, a DT, a DE, and LB in the best player available order. Who knows, he may even draft a long snapper as the Red Snapper is a little long in the tooth.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 25, 2009 11:57 PM | Report abuse

periculum; "However, in the Skin's case they have such a dearth of reasonable / healthy talent at all the positions along the O-Line a logjam would be a very good thing indeed. Hopefully minimally you get back-ups you aren't afraid to bring in as they were with Rhinehart."

The problem is that by investing so heavily in one position, you lose in other areas. If nobody gets hurt at, say, linebacker, you're aces. But most seasons, somebody does get hurt, and you're left scrambling. Maybe even having to trade more picks than you want for an emergency replacement like, for instance, Jason Taylor.

Or having to plug in an undrafted free agent like Stephon Heyer two seasons back.

By the way, I'm under the impression they skipped on playing Rinehart because he wasn't ready. He'd been a big hit in camp against rookies, but got handled by the vets. Don't know what the prognosis is for this season, but it will be interesting. I think his future may be at center.

All these NFL squads are much thinner than they used to be. That's partly why draft choices are more valuable then in the Gibbs era. You need them to play well earlier, because you're drafting your backups for the current year. It's also why drafting one area to the exclusion of others -- think the Skins this year at receiver -- is such a risky strategy. If you spend two high choices on one position and neither works out, then when you have a real shortage somewhere unexpected late in the season, there's nobody to plug in. Except some undrafted rook, or free agent on the career downside. And the Giants are in town next week.

That's why over several seasons, diversification is the best draft strategy. Just like in your own portfolio.

Of course, if you're really lucky and you draft four linemen and your gamble pays off, then everybody says you're a genius, which is worth something, I guess. Until the following year when two of them get hurt and you look like a moron.

Them's the NFL breaks, I guess. Nothing less reliable than the draft.

Posted by: Samson151 | January 26, 2009 6:43 AM | Report abuse

From PFT,

“MAJOR OFFER” COMING FOR DEANGELO?
Posted by Mike Florio on January 26, 2009, 7:46 a.m. EST
A year after the Oakland Raiders grossly overpaid for cornerback DeAngelo Hall and then cut him during the season, the team with which Hall landed could be ready to pay Hall a lot of money, too.

We’re hearing that the Redskins want Hall back, and that they could be soon coming up with a “major offer” to retain his services.

The “major offer” would have to come in the form of a multi-year deal, given that the Redskins agreed not to use the franchise tag to retain Hall for 2009 after they signed the former first-rounder of the Falcons on November 7.

In late December, Jason La Canfora of the Washington Post speculated that Hall ultimately will sign a deal in the range of six years, $48 million, with $12 million guaranteed.

Hall behaved and performed pretty well during his short stint with the ‘Skins. The real question is whether he has changed, or whether he merely held it all together long enough to get himself in line for his second big payday in less than a year.

Posted by: Flounder21 | January 26, 2009 8:44 AM | Report abuse

flound, thanks for posting that, I'm curioius to see what kind of money is being offered. I honestly have no idea what kind of money he could/should warrent in a contract.

Hey, I've borrowed "Wii Play", this weekend. Kind of similar to "Wii Sports", its got, tank battle, a shooting game, pool, fishing, a matching game, a cow riding game, bunch of other games, as well. My younger 2 liked it a lot....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | January 26, 2009 8:50 AM | Report abuse

PFT is garbage. When they are using JLC's 'speculation' as a 'source', thats not really credible.

I think its gonna be hard for even us to mess up the draft....Ideally we could trade our 13th and 5th rounder for Detroits 20th and 2nd rounder, but I dont think Detroit would even do that.

If the big tackles are gone, I think we would be fine going with Raji or Orakpo - those are positions of need as well. Maybe if we are lucky, Eric Wood or Unger/Mack will fall to us in the 3rd (or 2nd if we trade).

Posted by: Rypien11 | January 26, 2009 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Hey, I've borrowed "Wii Play", this weekend. Kind of similar to "Wii Sports", its got, tank battle, a shooting game, pool, fishing, a matching game, a cow riding game, bunch of other games, as well. My younger 2 liked it a lot....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | January 26, 2009 8:50 AM |

I have that my kids play it, I am still mastering Wii Sports.

Posted by: Flounder21 | January 26, 2009 8:58 AM | Report abuse

“MAJOR OFFER” COMING FOR DEANGELO?
Posted by Mike Florio on January 26, 2009, 7:46 a.m.
A year after the Oakland Raiders grossly overpaid for cornerback DeAngelo Hall and then cut him during the season, the team with which Hall landed could be ready to pay Hall a lot of money, too.

We’re hearing that the Redskins want Hall back, and that they could be soon coming up with a “major offer” to retain his services.

The “major offer” would have to come in the form of a multi-year deal, given that the Redskins agreed not to use the franchise tag to retain Hall for 2009 after they signed the former first-rounder of the Falcons on November 7.

In late December, Jason La Canfora of the Washington Post speculated that Hall ultimately will sign a deal in the range of six years, $48 million, with $12 million guaranteed.

Hall behaved and performed pretty well during his short stint with the ‘Skins. The real question is whether he has changed, or whether he merely held it all together long enough to get himself in line for his second big payday in less than a year.


Good to see someone posting Redskins news.

Posted by: rbruce2 | January 26, 2009 9:07 AM | Report abuse

It is my assertion that Vinny will draft players that simply can make the roster.

But for the word "simply", I would think that is the goal of every GM.
Unless they want them to make the roster in as complicated a manner as possible?

Posted by: daggar | January 26, 2009 9:07 AM | Report abuse

"I find it curious that the same people who defend JC say Heyer is not a starting caliber tackle. Campbell, a first round draft pick (at the expense of two picks), is given every benefit of the doubt or excuse for why he hasn't reached his potential. Heyer, an undrafted FA who plays as a rookie and wins the starting job in year two, gets talked about as if he's reached his full potential. He isn't finished developing either. He went undrafted because he tore his ACL in '05 (which as one can imagine affected his play when he returned after missing a whole season) not because he was believed to have lacked talent.

Posted by: learnedhand1"

Possibly true. Heyer hasn't reached his potential yet, and maybe he is a future starter in this league. However, Campbell is not "given" anything. He's proved his worth with his play on the field, and improved stats in nearly every single measurable category year after year.

The big difference between Jason Campbell and Stephon Heyer is that there are maybe 10 QBs that I can honestly say are better than Campbell right now, whereas I can probably list off 40-50 offensive tackles that are better than Stephon Heyer (at the least). It is much, much harder to find a quality starting QB in this league (of which Campbell already is).

Heyer may improve significantly to the point where I can say that yes, he is a true starting-caliber tackle in this league. At this point, however, he should not be thought of as the long-term future starter of this team. Especially with the collective age of the starting offensive line, the smart move is to bring in young talent at any of the positions up front, including tackle.

Posted by: psps23 | January 26, 2009 9:07 AM | Report abuse

fl, cool, I'm in the 1700 skill range in Wii Baseball, but my 5 year old OWNS me, when it comes to the bowling.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | January 26, 2009 9:08 AM | Report abuse

"While you're passionate, you can't go OL with all the picks. The Jasons referenced teams that have been to the SB the last 6 years. We're not in the position to overload at one position. We have too many holes, especially with our core of talent starting to age. We NEED an OLB in the draft. We also need a Guard more than a tackle. Heyer can be more than servicable at RT but this is Thomas' last year. He needs to be replaced next year while Samuels should have 2-3 more Pro Bowl years left in him. Guard is a bigger need now than T and OLB is as well. Personally, I think DE is a bigger need as well. I know you've stated you think Carter and Taylor can get 24 sacks next year, but in a scheme and with a D Coordinator that totalled 27 last year I just don't see it. Plus, you're not going to have either in 3 years and Wilson, Jackson and Evans can't be your 3 ends in 2010.

Posted by: 6-2StackMonster"

Well the Redskins finished last season ranked #4 in overall defense, with Jason Taylor, Andre Carter, and Marcus Washington all largely ineffective for most of the season. The offensive line, however, finished the season towards the bottom of the league in sacks allowed, and towards the end of the season couldn't get enough push to allow Portis to average even 4.0 YPC.

So I severely disagree that we need an OLB or a DE more than an offensive tackle (or any other position along the offensive line). We can more than get by with what we have on defense. The same cannot be said for the offensive line, in my opinion.

Posted by: psps23 | January 26, 2009 9:16 AM | Report abuse

It is my assertion that Vinny will draft players that simply can make the roster.

But for the word "simply", I would think that is the goal of every GM.
Unless they want them to make the roster in as complicated a manner as possible?

Posted by: daggar | January 26, 2009 9:07 AM

Daggar,

When last year's class was drafted, I was as disappointed as everyone else. We all thought that the lines would be addressed more. Then in the 2nd round we drafted a TE. WTF?

But then looking at the roster, I noticed that each of the ten picks had a solid chance at making the team. (No 3rd TE, etc.) So I 'came around' and said the draft was decent because I saw the youth movement.

Now, by the time the roster was official, I was surprised to see bubble guys sent packing for Justin Tryon. Not one undrafted rookie made the team. It looked as if Vinny told Zorn, "you can cut anyone except for my picks."

If Jasno was to look through all of the Ravens picks over the years, I'm sure there are many guys who didn't stick the first year, simply because you can't keep turning 8-10 guys a year and build continuity.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 26, 2009 9:28 AM | Report abuse

didn't zorn state that he had final say on who made the team?

Posted by: BeantownGreg | January 26, 2009 9:30 AM | Report abuse

I don't think PFT was calling this blog a source. It said he speculated, speculation is not a source of official means.

As I have said in the past and will say far into the future. Learn to read for comprehension people.

Posted by: alex35332 | January 26, 2009 9:35 AM | Report abuse

"NO O LINEMAN WITH THE 13th PICK. NOT OUR MOST IMPOTANT NEED. MUST BE A DE. NOTHING ELSE.

Posted by: 4thFloor "


that's pretty dumb

even if you wanna say the DL on our top 5-top 10 ranked D is the weakest unit on our team, DT is much more important right now than DE.

but obviously our bottom 10-ranked offense is more important than anything on our top 10-ranked defense. DUH.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | January 26, 2009 9:39 AM | Report abuse

If Jasno was to look through all of the Ravens picks over the years, I'm sure there are many guys who didn't stick the first year, simply because you can't keep turning 8-10 guys a year and build continuity.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 26, 2009 9:28 AM | Report abuse

Not that I 100% disagree with you but from what I understand a turnover of 10-15 players per roster is the league norm. Its just a question of if you are turning over starters or backups.

Posted by: alex35332 | January 26, 2009 9:39 AM | Report abuse

I hoping Zorn put more of his stamp on the team this year. Last year he really didn’t know the personnel, even after training camp, because Zorn assumed so much responsibility. This year, Zorn has his staff together, he has had one football season with these players, and he should have a plan for the type of player he needs for this team to move forward. The final roster for the 2009 season should be more insightful to the Zorn administration.

Posted by: TWISI | January 26, 2009 9:44 AM | Report abuse

Well the Redskins finished last season ranked #4 in overall defense, with Jason Taylor, Andre Carter, and Marcus Washington all largely ineffective for most of the season. The offensive line, however, finished the season towards the bottom of the league in sacks allowed, and towards the end of the season couldn't get enough push to allow Portis to average even 4.0 YPC.

So I severely disagree that we need an OLB or a DE more than an offensive tackle (or any other position along the offensive line). We can more than get by with what we have on defense. The same cannot be said for the offensive line, in my opinion.

Posted by: psps23 | January 26, 2009 9:16 AM

psps23,

I disagree for now and here's why. We do not have the same guys on defense!

DTackles: Griff and Alexander. That's it.

Golston and Monty are RFAs. Another team may snatch one - giving 'us' a pick in 2010.

DEnds: Taylor, Daniels, Carter, Buzbee, Jackson and Wilson. How many starters there?

Taylor and Daniels are likely gone. Evans is an UFA and will likely want starting DE $. (Which he should.)

Linebackers: Blades or Sinclair replacing Washington or Rocky is not even the same as Heyer starting at RT.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 26, 2009 10:00 AM | Report abuse

"But almost 50% in the first 3 rounds were for interior linemen. On both offense and defense. In that span they have drafted 3 centers!!! "


I'd rather see how many of those OL and how many of those centers are still on the team. Drafting a bunch of OL\DL could mean you suck at drafting OL\DL and have to keep doing it.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | January 26, 2009 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Truth,

Teams usually keep nine guys on both lines. You simply keep trying to upgrade.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 26, 2009 10:06 AM | Report abuse

But even Baltimore signed Willie Anderson once the Bengals let him go for cap purposes.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 26, 2009 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Hey, I've borrowed "Wii Play", this weekend. Kind of similar to "Wii Sports", its got, tank battle, a shooting game, pool, fishing, a matching game, a cow riding game, bunch of other games, as well. My younger 2 liked it a lot....

Posted by: BeantownGreg |


My son wisely bought that game with his christmas money because it came with a second controller. The 9-ball game is straight addictive to me, and a nice change of pace after wearing myself out with tennis. My kids love the duck-hunt and fishing games.

Posted by: Predator48 | January 26, 2009 10:14 AM | Report abuse

bangkokben -

Ok, if we end up with major turnover on the defensive side of the ball, then yes, I'll be more inclined to agree with you. But that goes back to proper management. We don't have enough picks to replenish every aging need, so it's my opinion that the smart thing to do is attempt to keep the defense at status quo, and rebuild the long-term offense (particularly offensive line) through this draft (along with Rinehart and Heyer).

Vinny should not let Golston or Montgomery get away, unless it's an outlandish offer - which I don't see coming for them. Carter is a starter at DE, and as bad as he played, he still led all our defensive linemen in tackles, sacks, and tackles for loss. Taylor and/or Daniels may be cut, but their production should be able to be replaced easily through FA. Same with MWashington. None of those guys require an elite player to replace the production they had this season, which led to a #4 defense. Macintosh isn't going anywhere.

Keep the defense as close as possible to the unit we saw this year, then use next season -- when it'll be much easier to cut guys like Carter and Smoot, and when we have more draft picks to fill holes -- to rebuild the defense.

We do not have enough picks to fill every hole this year. Heyer wasn't chosen to start for an offense that was one of the worst in the league. I don't think inserting him into the lineup will provide an upgrade to the extent this team needs on offense. The offensive line is by far a greater need than anything we have on defense.

Posted by: psps23 | January 26, 2009 10:15 AM | Report abuse

On a lighter note, whatever became of those Bruce Allen to the FO rumors?

Posted by: Predator48 | January 26, 2009 10:16 AM | Report abuse

pred, I could play the duck hunting game all day long. I thought I was getting good at it, until one of my kids told me that their high score was double what mine was.......

Posted by: BeantownGreg | January 26, 2009 10:21 AM | Report abuse

Hey here is a random question for DC sports fans how do you rate our 5 major sports team owners. I am not throwing in minor league teams or the WNBA team owners in as no one knows who they are.

Washington Nationals owner Theodore Lerner's
Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder
Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis
Washington Wizzards owner Abe Pollin
D.C United owner Victor MacFarlane


Posted by: alex35332 | January 26, 2009 10:25 AM | Report abuse

psps23,

Agree to disagree then. The o-line was the strength of the team the first quarter of the season. The defense is just as old and banged up as the O-line with just the same amount of back-up talent. If the front seven is not addressed to some degree this draft then the 'status quo' will likely last a quarter of a season before it is evident that there is no one to stop run in addition to pressuring the qb and causing turnovers.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 26, 2009 10:28 AM | Report abuse

Anyone know whats going on with the HOF?
Anyone have any new business since the end of the teams season?

Posted by: alex35332 | January 26, 2009 10:30 AM | Report abuse

psps23,

All i'm saying is both lines need to be addressed.

Posted by: bangkokben | January 26, 2009 10:32 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: bangkokben | January 26, 2009 10:33 AM | Report abuse

The big difference between Jason Campbell and Stephon Heyer is that there are maybe 10 QBs that I can honestly say are better than Campbell right now, whereas I can probably list off 40-50 offensive tackles that are better than Stephon Heyer (at the least). It is much, much harder to find a quality starting QB in this league (of which Campbell already is).

40-50? Really? What's the basis of your football knowledge? Are you a pro or college scout? I don't believe you can name 40-50 tackles without referencing NFL rosters much less know they are individually better than Heyer and actually be right. Unless you've studied game film of every starting tackle in the NFL (and actually know what you're looking for to even measure this), you cannot possibly name 40-50 tackles better than Heyer based upon your own personal knowledge.

As for Campbell's status vs other QBs: he's not in the top ten in QB rating, completion %, yards, ypg, ypatt (not even in top 20 for starting QBs). Granted he doesn't throw picks but he doesn't throw for scores either - TDs (again not in the top 20).

Posted by: learnedhand1 | January 26, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

So just this weekend I found out one of my TV's gets HBO for free.

I watched an episode of this show called Big Love, it was actually good!

It was about....Mormons!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | January 26, 2009 10:36 AM | Report abuse

Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis

Hands down top owner...not even an issue really...

The rest are d-bag toolz

Posted by: chrislarry | January 26, 2009 10:37 AM | Report abuse

bangkokben,

Fair enough, agree to disagree. Even if the defense is just as old and banged up, it still ended the season as the #4 unit in the league. And the old and banged up players had marginal production (outside of Springs). Replace them with equal production and you'll have similar results to this year (and it shouldn't take a 1st round pick or a top-flight, monster-contract free agent to replace what Jason Taylor or Marcus Washington did this season).

The defense needs to maintain it's production. The offense needs to be upgraded, and significantly. Big difference in my opinion.

Posted by: psps23 | January 26, 2009 10:38 AM | Report abuse

Hey here is a random question for DC sports fans how do you rate our 5 major sports team owners. I am not throwing in minor league teams or the WNBA team owners in as no one knows who they are.

Washington Nationals owner Theodore Lerner's
Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder
Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis
Washington Wizzards owner Abe Pollin
D.C United owner Victor MacFarlane


Posted by: alex35332 | January 26, 2009 10:25 AM

1) Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis - I'll be honest, I still don't knnow a thing about hockey, but I know a winner when I see one. A consistent winner.

2) D.C United owner Victor MacFarlane - Another team that consistently wins, another sport I don't know a thing about.

3) Washington Nationals owner Theodore Lerner's - You can say that this team should be way better than they are now. '05 they were winning - for the first half of the season. Then they got Soriano and was at about .500, the following year after they didn't resign him, they were around .500 again. '07 they stunk the joint up terribly. Need to address pitching, at least you can say that their front office at least appears to have a plan in place; much more than what I can say about the following teams.

4) Washington Wizzards owner Abe Pollin - Abe Pollin. Great guy, but has joined the ranks of Al Davis and Ralph Wilson - old delusional dudes. He refuses to go over the luxary tax to reatain players or sign FAs that the Wizards could definitely use. Spending 161 million on Antwan Jamison and Gilbert Arenas, raised eyebrows around the league. Makes you wonder who is making the calls; Ernie Grunfeld or Pollin. I'd say it's Gurnfeld - Grunfeld doesn't have a problem with dumping long tenured players (see: Oakley, Charles and Starks, John)

5) Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder - His faults have been well documented here, I only hope that he realizes that he doesn't need to micromanage the 'skins. Hire a GM and let him do his thing. Once there is trouble thewn you step in, but to only provide assistance to the situation. Once you've approached both the coach and GM and you still have the same results then you make a "owner" decision.

Posted by: RedDMV | January 26, 2009 10:47 AM | Report abuse

learnedhand1 -

Alright, you win. I'm not a pro football or college scout. And I can't change the fact that you don't "believe" I can name 40-50 offensive tackles in this league without referencing NFL rosters (even though I most certainly can). Clearly nothing I say has any effect on what you think, other than to piss you off. So we'll leave it at that.

I will tell you what you and I both know as indisputable fact; Jon Jansen started more games this season than Stephon Heyer. So unless you know more than Joe Bugel and Jim Zorn, or you believe that Chris Samuels, Jon Jansen, AND Stephon Heyer are ALL in the top 40-50 tackles in the league (which in case you didn't realize, there are 64 total "starters"), then I believe you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, with no true opinion or analysis to back yourself up.

Posted by: psps23 | January 26, 2009 10:52 AM | Report abuse

Well yes CL its like a 10 vs a bunch of 2's but how do you really rate the 2's is the fun part. I go

5. Washington Nationals owner Theodore Lerner
Hands down the worst owner and for my money the worst Billionaire guy in DC, he is cheep. He lies to the public for things like free stadiums or getting out of rent. Also he build that abominable S***hole called Tysons to make all his money. He may be the devil of DC but I cannot confirm or deny that rumor yet.

4. D.C United owner Victor MacFarlane
You may wonder why I put him so low? I would just say some behind the curtain stuff on how the ownership has been trying to get a new stadium and the fact that from what I can see the team is going down hill.

3. Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder
We hate and love him don't we? Dan Snyder tries to buy a superbowl and fails every time. We know there are problems with his need for yes men and that could be a problem.

2. Washington Wizzards owner Abe Pollin
Its close among the bottom 4 but I give the Wizz some credit for some things they seem to be doing. They are unafraid to spend money for the most part they rebuilt okay and the Verizon Center has turned around downtown. They have a few problems with the roster now but if they get a good spot in next years draft than we may be good.

1. Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis
He is open to the public and cares about his team and enjoys what he does. He could have a losing team and still be the best owner.

Posted by: alex35332 | January 26, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis

Hands down top owner...not even an issue really...

The rest are d-bag toolz

Posted by: chrislarry

-----

I'd give the title to Macfarlane of DC United. 4 MLS championships in 12 years. And they have a phenomenal scouting team to unearth talent throughout the world. By far the best management team in this area.

Although Leonsis is certainly a good owner in his own right. The luck of landing Ovechkin with the #1 pick, however, has a lot to do with the Caps' turnaround. Not a player you find in every draft.

Posted by: psps23 | January 26, 2009 10:57 AM | Report abuse

McFarlane only owned DCU since 07 though I thought.

Posted by: alex35332 | January 26, 2009 10:59 AM | Report abuse

BEEP

Posted by: alex35332 | January 26, 2009 11:01 AM | Report abuse

What?

No update on the Bruce Allen story?

Moe is jonesing for another hit of gossipy unsubstantiated sports rumors.

I can't take it anymore.

Things are so bad, I'm about to watch another rerun of Sportscenter to get a fix.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 26, 2009 11:02 AM | Report abuse

Although Leonsis is certainly a good owner in his own right. The luck of landing Ovechkin with the #1 pick, however, has a lot to do with the Caps' turnaround. Not a player you find in every draft.

Posted by: psps23 | January 26, 2009 10:57 AM

Okay like I said, I know nothing about hockey like that, but I've heard they got some good young talent on the team. Their success isn't all OV8.

Posted by: RedDMV | January 26, 2009 11:02 AM | Report abuse

no one cares about yall's crappy organizations (other than the Skins)


Braves > Nationals
Bobcats > Wizards
Bulldogs > whatever crappy college teams yall got
Redskins = Redskins

also, apparently the Braves are bringing back ANDRUW JONES. The only good thing about this is that it can't be nearly as bad as it sounds! Or can it!?!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | January 26, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

psp23, here are some other undisputable facts. During Heyer's rookie season when Jansen went down the coaches moved Heyer ahead of Todd Wade after Wade started a bunch of games. The Skins won four straight games with him in the line up during their playoff push. After training camp, Joe Bugel and Jim Zorn named Heyer the starting right tackle ahead of Jansen. The Skins were 2-1 with him as a starter. He got hurt, Jansen was reinserted, and the coaches didn't put him back in. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe he gave up a sack when he replaced Samuels.

As for arguing for the sake of arguing, you've got the wrong guy. You argue with anyone who says something with which you don't agree and its clear you enjoy doing so. You've even commented about your "wins." Stop projecting.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | January 26, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

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