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Gibbs on Coryell

Former Redskins head coach Joe Gibbs, who played for Don Coryell in college and coached under him in St. Louis and San Diego, released this statement Friday on Coryell's death:

"Don was a great leader and a great coach. The greatest testimony to that is what his players all thought about him. The loyalty they all had. When you played for him, which I did, you knew he put everything he had into the game plan. He had a great passion for what he did.

"He certainly had a huge impact on my thought process and coaching career and he bred an atmosphere of creativity. Here is a guy that was successful coaching at a small college, a major college, and two different pro stops. He truly was an icon in the coaching profession. We will all really miss him. His family is in our thoughts and our prayers."

By Washington Post editors  |  July 2, 2010; 1:07 PM ET
 
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Comments

Gibbs was Coryell's #1 student. And we were all the beneficiaries.

RIP Don Coryell.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

RIP Don Coryell.

He gave us Joe Gibbs.

Posted by: Rando | July 2, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Didn't the prefix "Air" start with 'Air Coryell'?

RIP your Airness.

On a funny note, my first memories of him were as a 12 year old kid and I remember telling my dad Coryell always had a look of disgust on his face. The man was ahead of his time. That coaching tree is one of the best.

Posted by: No_Punt_Intended | July 2, 2010 1:22 PM | Report abuse

Heheheh, they replaced the Ray Lewis picture with a Haynesworth vs. Gurode pic.

Posted by: monkeymayonaise | July 2, 2010 1:32 PM | Report abuse

I am still cursing Ceratto and Snyder for picking DT over Desean Jackson. The entire reason we are in this receiver mess right now, where we are even having to consider VJ, is because of that stupid pick.

Still, Desean is such a cocky idiot that it offers a little comfort that he isn't a Redskin; this always cracks me up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH1H13nl01M&feature=related

f'ckin' moron.

Posted by: monkeymayonaise | July 2, 2010 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Gibbs was Coryell's #1 student. And we were all the beneficiaries.

RIP Don Coryell.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 1:16 PM

And so are the Cowboys for their 3 90's Championships, and St. Louis for their Championship (MArtz (learned from Zampese) and Saunders, who took over for Coryell in SD)...

So that's 7 Championships, 8 if the Pats didn't cheat....For a guy who personally won none...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 1:43 PM | Report abuse

I just loved watching Foutes run Air Coryell when I was a kid. Having that system brought to Washington and married to a power running game (and a D) was absolute heaven.

Power up the middle, speed at the wings. Score fast, score often - then pound them into the dirt with a crushing O line smashing open holes for the Diesel!

Good times indeed.

Posted by: edvar | July 2, 2010 1:46 PM | Report abuse

monk, given the lack of head coach, offense/qb, you name it, what makes you think that DJack would have had a modicum of success with the team the past 2 years??

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | July 2, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

How about that San Diego State (mid 60's) team with Coryell as the HC and Gibbs and Madden as assistants.

RIP Don Coryell

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 2, 2010 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Gibbs was Coryell's #1 student. And we were all the beneficiaries.

RIP Don Coryell.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 1:16 PM

Not John Madden? Madden and Gibbs are both in the HOF. Coryell isn't.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

Chuck Muncie with the horn-rimmed glasses. John Jefferson, Kellen Winslow and that great game against the Fish.

Thanks Don. RIP!

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 2, 2010 2:05 PM | Report abuse

"..Lebron wants to win now. .... Chi gives him the best chance to win right away..."

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 2, 2010 12:52 PM

LeBron James will go to Miami to play with D Wade and another superstar.

Book it!!!

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 2, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse


Gibbs was Coryell's #1 student. And we were all the beneficiaries.

RIP Don Coryell.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 1:16 PM

Not John Madden? Madden and Gibbs are both in the HOF. Coryell isn't.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

Not taking anything from Madden..i think he was a good coach but he only won 1 SB with that 70s Raider team...

Gibbs won 3 SBs with three different teams for the most part...I say yes Gibbs was his #1 student!

Posted by: leevi98 | July 2, 2010 2:20 PM | Report abuse

LeBron James will go to Miami to play with D Wade and another superstar.

Book it!!!

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 2, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

LeBron, Wade, Another superstar and 9 empty roster spots.

Posted by: Original_etrod | July 2, 2010 2:23 PM | Report abuse

Those were the days. Good rivalry, good games for a handful of years stretch. Coryell, Metcalf, Grey, JV Cain, Otis, Tilley, Hart - very nice offense for that era.

RIP

Posted by: outsourced_in_va | July 2, 2010 2:24 PM | Report abuse


Go vote for Skins in NFC east div. poll...

"Which NFC east team has historically has had the strongest teams in the div."

we are last place right now even behind eagles! GO VOTE!

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/polls?pCat=46&sCat=1360

Posted by: leevi98 | July 2, 2010 2:27 PM | Report abuse

LeBron James will go to Miami to play with D Wade and another superstar.

Book it!!!

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 2, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

LeBron, Wade, Another superstar and 9 empty roster spots.

Posted by: Original_etrod | July 2, 2010 2:23 PM | Report abuse

How would that work? i mean with the game on the line...how do you keep both wade and lebron happy about who takes the last shot? One of them will b upset!

He is staying in cleveland!

Posted by: leevi98 | July 2, 2010 2:30 PM | Report abuse

I remember all those great St. Louis Cardinals teams he used to coach that would ALWAYS give the Skins fits. Between Jim Hart, Terry Metcalf and Mel Gray, we ALWAYS had our hands full with them.

Posted by: stwasm | July 2, 2010 2:30 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 2:31 PM | Report abuse

"Those were the days. Good rivalry, good games for a handful of years stretch. Coryell, Metcalf, Grey, JV Cain, Otis, Tilley, Hart - very nice offense for that era."

I had to go look it up.. I fogot Ike Harris and Jackie Smith. I think Smith drop a pass in a SB for 'the boys' in his last year in the league....

back to work...

Posted by: outsourced_in_va | July 2, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse


Gibbs was Coryell's #1 student. And we were all the beneficiaries.

RIP Don Coryell.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 1:16 PM

Not John Madden? Madden and Gibbs are both in the HOF. Coryell isn't.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 2:02 PM

Because Gibbs won more SBs than MAdden. Before Gibbs came back for 2.0, he had the best postseason winning percentage and most post season wins.

Gibbs was a 1st Ballet HOFer...Madden needed 17 years if MAdden Video Games and 30+ years of announcing in the booth to stay relevant amongst the football fans to get in. Gibbs needed not and got in just what he put out on the field.

Understand now? Not to Mention he got a Expansion Bucs into the NFC Championship Game and only reason didn't take them to the SB was because DW17 hurt his knee.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Not taking anything from Madden..i think he was a good coach but he only won 1 SB with that 70s Raider team...

Gibbs won 3 SBs with three different teams for the most part...I say yes Gibbs was his #1 student!

Posted by: leevi98 | July 2, 2010 2:20 PM |

Not taking anything away from Gibbs, but Gibbs coached a lot longer in the NFL than Madden. Madden had a better record in the NFL than Gibbs:

Madden: 112-39-7
Gibbs: 171-101-0

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Madden had a better record in the NFL than Gibbs:

Madden: 112-39-7
Gibbs: 171-101-0

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 2:41 PM

Now Go look up the playoff record and percentages......

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 2:50 PM | Report abuse

Man...I used to love the Chargers. I wanted some goggles like John Jefferson and used to wear my towel in my football pants like he did.

You all may not remember this but they had a RB names James Brooks who had the coolest facemask ever...

The good ole' days!

Posted by: rickyroge | July 2, 2010 2:51 PM | Report abuse

Not taking anything from Madden..i think he was a good coach but he only won 1 SB with that 70s Raider team...

Gibbs won 3 SBs with three different teams for the most part...I say yes Gibbs was his #1 student!

Posted by: leevi98 | July 2, 2010 2:20 PM |

Not taking anything away from Gibbs, but Gibbs coached a lot longer in the NFL than Madden. Madden had a better record in the NFL than Gibbs:

Madden: 112-39-7
Gibbs: 171-101-0

Posted by: greenback

I'd say it more like

Madden: 112-39-7 and 1
Gibbs: 171-101-0 and 3

plus Gibbs has some of the best postseason #'s ever

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 2:51 PM | Report abuse

Man...I used to love the Chargers...I wanted some goggles just like John Jefferson and I used to wear a towel in my football pants just like he did.

You all may not remember but they had a RB names James Brooks who had to coolest facemask ever.

I never remember screen passes with the Chargers, only bombs!

...good ol' days!

Posted by: rickyroge | July 2, 2010 2:54 PM | Report abuse

fwiw, Gibbs was a player, college coach and pro coach (for 2 teams) under Coryell.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Now Go look up the playoff record and percentages......

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 2:50 PM

Gibbs
Playoff Record: 17-6
Playoff Win %: .739

John Madden
Playoff Record: 9-7
Playoff Win %: .563

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 3:00 PM | Report abuse

Chuck Muncie with the horn-rimmed glasses. John Jefferson, Kellen Winslow and that great game against the Fish.

Thanks Don. RIP!

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 2, 2010 2:05 PM

knew someone would finally reference the San Diego vs. Miami playoff game.

I was 10 years old and listened to the first half on AM radio in an Oldsmobile faux wood-side station wagon.... watched the rest of the game on a small color TV, which had just replaced our B&W workhorse.

this is the game that turned me into a football fan for life.

was born in San Diego and used to sit at the edge of La Mesa and watch the pre-game fireworks over the old stadium as a little kid... will admit to still being a Chargers fan even though I don't follow them as closely now.

Kellen Winslow staggering off the field is the perfect portrait of dedication... consistently among the top all-time greatest football games ever played:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epic_In_Miami
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/classic_nfl/09/10/chargers/index.html

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 3:07 PM | Report abuse

Gibbs was a 1st Ballet HOFer...Madden needed 17 years...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 2:41 PM

This means that Don Coryell is as good a coach as Brian Billick since neither of them is in the HOF.

You can't run from the fact that Madden had a better NFL record than Gibbs, but keep putting up all your "Yes, but..."

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Charlie Joyner was a baaaaad man

Posted by: coparker5 | July 2, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Did Madden go the 4 Superbowls?
Did he win 3 of them?
With THREE different QB's?

Not taking anything away from Madden. Great guy, great coach, great TV guy.

But Gibbs was better.

Posted by: edvar | July 2, 2010 3:26 PM | Report abuse

You can't run from the fact that Madden had a better NFL record than Gibbs, but keep putting up all your "Yes, but..."

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Madden did have a higher winning percentage than Gibbs, but he also had the HIGHEST winning percentage among ANYONE, so you think Madden's better than Lombardi or Walsh???
If anything, the playoff winning percentage speaks volumes over the regular season, cause it showed Madden's teams couldn't get it done versus top opponents. Shoot, the Steelers used to eat him alive in the 70's, where as Gibb's teams were well coached and battle tested and whooped some azz in the playoffs.

Posted by: monk811 | July 2, 2010 3:29 PM | Report abuse

You can't run from the fact that Madden had a better NFL record than Gibbs, but keep putting up all your "Yes, but..."

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:17 PM | Report

Go ask coaches, players, hell ANYONE that ever played what they would rather have a good record or a championship. Post season wins and championships are a far better measure of a team and coach than win-loss. You can rack up 6 wins a year if you're in a shlep division and get beat in the wild card round cuz you just ain't that good.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 2, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

You can't run from the fact that Madden had a better NFL record than Gibbs, but keep putting up all your "Yes, but..."

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:17 PM

You can ask Lebron JAmes about the Regular season as well.....

When we talk about Postseason...That's Boy Time...Put the women and kids to sleep...

Now go back and read above about each's postseason record....

Coryell deserves to be in the HOF, but he isn't a 1st ballot HOFer either, but his time has been due....Look at all the SBs won by his disciples.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 3:33 PM | Report abuse

Looks like a change of scenery has spurred JC on. The following is from Len Pasquarelli's "Tip Sheet Notes"

Buddy system

The Minneapolis Star-Tribune reported this week that Brett Favre had worked out with the Oak Grove High School football team in Hattiesburg, Miss., another hint that he is planning on playing a 20th NFL season. What hasn't been reported, until now, is that Favre has had a workout companion at various times in the offseason. Oakland quarterback Jason Campbell, traded to the Raiders from Washington on draft weekend after the Redskins acquired Donovan McNabb, has thrown with Favre several times this offseason, ESPN.com has learned.

Campbell, by the way, has drawn rave reviews from Oakland coaches and players (cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha is the latest to laud his work) for his performances in practice this spring. With the five-year veteran offering a lot more stability than the departed JaMarcus Russell, the Raiders feel they can surprise some people in 2010

Posted by: TWISI | July 2, 2010 3:34 PM | Report abuse

IF/when the Skins move AH on, which of these DL would you like to see them bring in? You can choose no more than 2.

Raheem Brock, Marques Douglas, Greg Ellis, Cornelius Griffin, Darren Howard, Jevon Kearse and Adewale Ogunleye, Ian Scott.

Posted by: TWISI | July 2, 2010 3:41 PM | Report abuse

The Minneapolis Star-Tribune reported this week that Brett Favre had worked out with the Oak Grove High School football team in Hattiesburg, Miss., another hint that he is planning on playing a 20th NFL season. What hasn't been reported, until now, is that Favre has had a workout companion at various times in the offseason. Oakland quarterback Jason Campbell, traded to the Raiders from Washington on draft weekend after the Redskins acquired Donovan McNabb, has thrown with Favre several times this offseason, ESPN.com has learned.

Campbell, by the way, has drawn rave reviews from Oakland coaches and players (cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha is the latest to laud his work) for his performances in practice this spring. With the five-year veteran offering a lot more stability than the departed JaMarcus Russell, the Raiders feel they can surprise some people in 2010

Posted by: TWISI | July 2, 2010 3:34 PM | Report

It's easy to praise Campbell when your previous quarterback was Jamarcus "doughboy" Russell. Hell, he'll look like a hall of famer to the Raiders.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 2, 2010 3:42 PM | Report abuse

Now go back and read above about each's postseason record....

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 3:33 PM |

Now, boy time, go back and read how many games each of them coached. Pretty clear that if Madden had hung around as long as Gibbs did he would have four SB's not three. Gibbs showed what he was made of in Gibss 2.0 -- couldn't get it done without Bobby Beatherd. What was his playoff record in 2.0?

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 2, 2010 3:42 PM

What you pointed out is true. What I got from that except was JC working out with Farve. I don't remember him working out with other QBs, do you?

Posted by: TWISI | July 2, 2010 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Now, boy time, go back and read how many games each of them coached. Pretty clear that if Madden had hung around as long as Gibbs did he would have four SB's not three. Gibbs showed what he was made of in Gibss 2.0 -- couldn't get it done without Bobby Beatherd. What was his playoff record in 2.0?

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:47 PM |

If/then statements have no place in a well reasoned argument.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 2, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:47 PM | Report abuse

If you love Madden so much why you marry him? I hear he needs a bedmate in that dumb bus of his.

Posted by: monk811 | July 2, 2010 3:52 PM | Report abuse

AGENT EXPLAINS HAYNESWORTH’S ABSENCE
Saying there are “more important things than football,” the agent for Washington Redskins defensive lineman Albert Haynesworth offered a new explanation for the absence of his client from training camp.

Chad Speck said his client -- who in 2009 became the highest paid defensive lineman in NFL history -- decided he wants to “do something” for the “little people” who helped him become the man he is today.
So shortly after taking a $21 million roster bonus, the heart of his team’s new 3-4 defense stepped away from football to help people in the Gulf of Mexico cap and clean up a massive spill from a BP oil rig.

Using his own boat, the Terminator, and taking nothing but some handshakes and a few words of thanks, Haynesworth is anonymously shuttling oil riggers to and from two new wellheads being drilled into the seafloor to cap the well. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2010/04/albert_haynesworths_new_boat.html

“Great athlete-humanitarians such as Albert know that much is expected from those who are given so much,” said Speck. Haynesworth reportedly admires other great humanitarians like Roberto Clemente, the baseball legend killed while delivering humanitarian supplies to Nicaragua; tennis star Arthur Ashe, who campaigned against apartheid in South Africa and for better healthcare in urban America; and former NFL quarterback Drew Bledsoe, who continues to work tirelessly for various youth associations.

Speck said, “In each case, here is a man who uses his position as a sports star to do something greater than playing sports – and benefit all mankind.”

In recent years, Albert has been the principal sponsor of Haynesworth House, a shelter for abused wives and abandoned children. http://www.nowpublic.com/sports/albert-haynesworth-wife-stephanie-haynesworth-restraining-order

Albert adopted a new cause this year: working with unwed mothers and other victims of sexual exploitation to help make their lives better. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Pregnant-stripper-sues-Albert-Haynesworth.html

Concerning the “little people,” Albert cited Redskins team owner Dan Snyder as the “guy who has the money” and will do “almost anything to win” – which now presumably includes looking away while Haynesworth pursues other interests.

Haynesworth even asked Snyder to trade him to New Orleans so that he could be closer to the Gulf recover effort. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/haynesworth-will-skip-minicamp.html

But even if trade talks fail, Haynesworth says he will remain a great player and a fine humanitarian too -- and to prove the point, he made an unsolicited $10,000 contribution to NFL charities. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/albert-haynesworth/albert-haynesworth-statement-i.html

Posted by: Vic1 | July 2, 2010 3:53 PM | Report abuse

As coaches Madden and Gibbs both headed up excellent teams in 2 different decades. Madden had the 70's, Gibbs the 80's(a couple in the 90's). Come to think of it it's almost uncanny how those team were so similar. Both in several years could have been favorites to win it all. Both won notoriety with the vertical passing game. Excellent O-lines with pass pro, the ability to slam a RB at the other team that was a bull (Banazak, VanEgan, Hubbard sp?, Riggins, Rogers, Byner, Riggs...etc..) Scatbacks like Joe Wash. K. Bryant/Clarence Davis. Win with the run soften them up for the pass. Both defenses at times played second fiddle to the O's but they were top of the line units that had ability to take advantage of what their O provided in either field position or leads. Great teams!! Oakland would have had a couple more SB appearances except Pitt and Mia had their own buzzsaws churning at the same time. Just about anyone coming out of the AFC in the 70's was a favorite. Then in the 80's the NFC came to dominance.

Posted by: outsourced_in_va | July 2, 2010 3:58 PM | Report abuse

LeBron, Wade, Another superstar and 9 empty roster spots.

Posted by: Original_etrod


The Heat can add Lebron with Wade and use a sign and trade move to add an additional star to create a team a lot like what the Celts feature with Garnett/Pierce/Wallace/Allen.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 2, 2010 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Now, boy time, go back and read how many games each of them coached. Pretty clear that if Madden had hung around as long as Gibbs did he would have four SB's not three. Gibbs showed what he was made of in Gibss 2.0 -- couldn't get it done without Bobby Beatherd. What was his playoff record in 2.0?

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:47 PM | Report abuse


So we can't say "Yeah, but..." but you can say "If Madden..."?

That doesn't seem fair.

Madden lost the AFC championship game 5 times. Who's to say if he had coached longer he wouldn't have lost 5 more?

Posted by: Original_etrod | July 2, 2010 4:07 PM | Report abuse

"Again, this off season is a duplicate of past off seasons, a decade of them. And some folks don't want to admit that fact."

It is not a fact, but your opinion, and a poorly-supported opinion at that. There have been three key differences between this Redskins' off-season and previous off-seasons under Snyder.

First, there have been no big-ticket free-agent signings. The 'Skins haven't whipped out the checkbook to over-pay some other team's star to come here and under-achieve. The free agents signed have been of the bargain-basement variety.

Second, the 'Skins haven't been blatantly ripped-off in any trades. Teams around the league knew that Snyderatto under-valued draft choices. I guarrantee you that, had the previous "brain trust" done the Jammal Brown deal, the price would have been a third, and probably a fourth-round pick, too, with NO picks coming back to us.

Third, Shanallen has ceased the foolish practice of trading for a player who is dissatisfied with his contract, then immediately giving him a new, lucrative contract before seeing how that player will produce with his new team. McNabb and Brown were not given new deals, and should therefore be more motivated to have big years than if they had been given big contracts.

Finally, do you really believe that highly-respected NFL people with other employment options, like Shanahan and Allen, would have agreed to come here if Snyder was going to be making the personnel decisions?

Posted by: rufus_t_firefly | July 2, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

If you love Madden so much why you marry him? I hear he needs a bedmate in that dumb bus of his.

Posted by: monk811 | July 2, 2010 3:52 PM

If you love Gibbs so much why don't you get down on your knees and pray to Jesus Christ for your salvation? You're already a monk so you should be in prayers about now, not blogging on the internet.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

...given the lack of head coach, offense/qb, you name it, what makes you think that DJack would have had a modicum of success with the team the past 2 years??

Posted by: BeantownGreg1

You make a good point. You can't throw to a receiver open deep from on your back. That said, had Philly taken D. Thomas, I doubt he'd had the success Jackson did. For one thing, if he couldn't learn where to line up and where to go in a relatively simple offense like zorn's, he'd have likely wallowed at the end of the bench with the more sophisticated Iggles O.

Posted by: TheCork | July 2, 2010 4:12 PM | Report abuse


You can't argue who was better, Gibbs or Madden. Different teams, different players. Different owners, etc.

It's like comparing Apples and Turduckens.

But go ahead and try. It's the Dog Days.

Posted by: TheCork | July 2, 2010 4:17 PM | Report abuse

Hey, who let greenback in here? I bet he's a stupid Iggles or Cowpies fan.
And you're not allowed to tell dumb jokes, only I can, it's written in the RI bylaws.

Posted by: monk811 | July 2, 2010 4:18 PM | Report abuse

The good teams top off their drafted core with a few key agents. The bad teams try to by their core by throwing it at free agents and hoping that they pan out.

Posted by: srobert1117 | July 2, 2010 2:22 PM


I agree with the heart of what you're saying, but I just can't buy that your core players HAVE to be drafted guys. I mean, the two best players on the Saints (the example you brought up) are Drew Brees on offense and Darren Sharper on defense. Both are FA signings.

The core of the Pats had a good mix of FAs and drafted guys. It's all relative...the only thing that matters is getting the RIGHT guys. HOW you got 'em doesn't matter.

Hessone, no offense, but you're an asshat. See how putting "no offense" in front of an insulting comment makes absolutely NO difference whatsoever?

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2010 4:48 PM | Report abuse

Lions' pass on Haynesworth no surprise

Posted July 02, 2010 @ 11:53 a.m. ET
By Eric Edholm
The Lions made it public that they have no intention of dealing for DT Albert Haynesworth, and though they seriously considered it, our sources say the team never got to the point where it was even discussing what it might offer for the disgruntled Redskin. Although Lions head coach Jim Schwartz had a relationship with Haynesworth and believed he could tap into the tackle's talent in Detroit, Lions brass felt that the potential distraction — especially with No. 2 overall pick Ndamukong Suh playing the same position — was not worth the gamble. The Lions are not teeming with depth at the position and could use another front-line player to join a top-three rotation of Suh, Corey Williams and Sammie Hill. But they felt that a deal for Haynesworth, even if they were getting him cheaply, just wasn't worth the hassle and the distraction.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/07/02/lions-pass-on-haynesworth-no-surprise

Posted by: tony325 | July 2, 2010 4:48 PM | Report abuse

Just to weigh in on the Gibbs/Madden debate...it's a really close call, but I think Gibbs has to get the edge. Madden played in the AFC in the 70s...I'd say he'd at least have one more SB if it weren't for having to go thru the Steeler dynasty all those years...plus the Oilers were pretty damn good back then, if I recall correctly.

But on the flip side of that, Madden had a grip of HoF players too. Gibbs didn't have the same level of talent those Raider teams did and he STILL won 2 more SBs than Madden.

SBs and playoff win % trumps all else when the regular season numbers are so close. Advantage: Gibbs.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2010 4:57 PM | Report abuse

SBs and playoff win % trumps all else when the regular season numbers are so close. Advantage: Gibbs.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2010 4:57 PM |

So close? You been hitting the sauce already:

Madden: 112-39-7 -- 74%
Gibbs: 171-101-0 -- 62%

Gibbs would look a lot better if you just ignore Gibbs 2.0

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 5:25 PM | Report abuse

SBs and playoff win % trumps all else when the regular season numbers are so close. Advantage: Gibbs.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2010 4:57 PM

one of those SBs was in a season shortened by a players' strike... sure it counts, but per Cork's comment earlier, that's like comparing apples to turduckens. Gibbs and Madden were both great coaches, no need to rank 'em so precisely.

overall achievement matters, not necessarily reducible to rings or percentages... and Coryell changed the "modern" passing game in fundamental ways that exceed the overall contributions of Gibbs and Madden.

one can argue over W-L records, but the fact remains that Coryell was immensely influential.

"Coach Coryell deserves to be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame and it's a shame that he is not," Winslow said. "So many offenses that are being run today are variations of 'Air Coryell.' They call it the West Coast offense because San Francisco won Super Bowls with it, but it was a variation of what we did in San Diego. Joe Gibbs' itty-bitty receivers on the outside and two tight ends in the middle, that' a variation of Coryell's offense in San Diego. It's just a personnel change, but it's the same thing. When the Rams won their Super Bowl, it was the same offense, same terminology. For Don Coryell to not be in the Hall of Fame is a lack of knowledge of the voters. That's the nicest way that I can put that. A lack of understanding of the legacy of the game. He deserves to be there just as much as anybody else, any other coach who is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame."
-Kellen Winslow

http://www.nfl.com/halloffame/story?id=09000d5d809a866c&template=with-video&confirm=true

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

So close? You been hitting the sauce already:

Madden: 112-39-7 -- 74%
Gibbs: 171-101-0 -- 62%

Gibbs would look a lot better if you just ignore Gibbs 2.0

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 5:25 PM


I am ignoring Gibbs 2.0.

If Madden ever came back to coach the Raiders, the results would be even more disasterous.

Look at it this way...even with the lackluster comeback, Gibbs still won about an average of 10 games a season. Madden won an average of about 11. In my book, that's pretty damn close.

And again...the great equalizer:

Joe Gibbs
Playoff Record: 17-6
Playoff Win %: .739
Super Bowls: 3

John Madden
Playoff Record: 9-7
Playoff Win %: .563
Super Bowls: 1

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2010 5:35 PM | Report abuse

Moo, I've heard people talk down the Skins' first two SBs because of the strike and that's just a laughable argument to me...if anything, that just proves that Gibbs is one of the best ever. That tells me that you could get 11 Wal-Mart cashiers to play for Gibbs and he'll still win. That tells me he can motivate any player and put them in a position to succeed, even if their measurables leave much to be desired.

Madden won fewer titles with more talent. I gave him the credit that he went up against the best dynasty in NFL history and would probably have another title or two otherwise. But then again, you could probably say the same for Gibbs, since the 49ers were the team to beat that decade and you also had a couple great Bears teams too.

Bottom line, Gibbs did more with less overall, and I think that gives him the nod.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2010 5:42 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2010 5:42 PM

not arguing that Gibbs wasn't great... coaching is a strange place at the interface between system, opportunity, and innovation.

but the mark of someone like Coryell is that he changed the game, while developing an incredible lineage of winning coaches who followed in his footsteps.

compare that to the "coaching tree" of Joe Gibbs or John Madden.

tough to rank 'em consecutively, although if we're willing to accept HOF caliber as a cut-off, then Coryell deserves to be there, too.

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 5:56 PM | Report abuse

I think the missing piece of the draft vs. free agent debate is the coach...All of the successful teams have consistency at the coaching level. Pats, Eagles, Saints..hell even the Bengals are coming around.

Look what we've done...

Zorn...2 years
Gibbs...4 years (2 playoff appearences)
Spurrier....2 years
Schottenheimer...1 year

This means as the coaches and schemes churn, so do the players.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 2, 2010 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Look at it this way...even with the lackluster comeback, Gibbs still won about an average of 10 games a season. Madden won an average of about 11. In my book, that's pretty damn close.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2010 5:35 PM

Madden was playing 14 game seasons. Gibbs was playing 16 game seasons. Not close.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Now, boy time, go back and read how many games each of them coached. Pretty clear that if Madden had hung around as long as Gibbs did he would have four SB's not three. Gibbs showed what he was made of in Gibss 2.0 -- couldn't get it done without Bobby Beatherd. What was his playoff record in 2.0?

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:47 PM |


I just could not this one go. it's obvious you do not know much about football.

Gibbs' playoff record in 2.0 was 1 and 2...i think Gibbs did a pretty damn great job in 2.0. no he did not win a SB in his 2nd stint. No bobby was not there but look at where the franchise was when gibbs took over in 04 after the ol' ball coach mess. then he had Vinnie as acting GM....

To take a team to 2 playoffs appearances after 12 years being away from the game and the mess he took over is pretty damn good if ya ask me...

not to mention one of the 2 he had his best over all player die in the middle of a season and somehow kept the ship sailing and won 4 straight to get in and with his back up QB at that!

So your right gibbs did show what he was made of in 2.0 especially in 07!

Don't come in here talkin bout trash about our THE Chief Joe Gibbs.

Madden himself would tell you Gibbs is the better coach

Posted by: leevi98 | July 2, 2010 6:17 PM | Report abuse

funny, the Gibs vs Madden thing started with my comment that Gibbs was his #1 student. Mostly, because Gibbs spent so much time with Coryell -- as a player, as an asst coach in college and as an asst with 2 teams in the pros.

Gibbs over Madden as a coach. Yeah. Madden doesn't play 2nd fiddle to many coaches, Gibbs is one of the very few.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 6:18 PM | Report abuse

Madden himself would tell you Gibbs is the better coach

Posted by: leevi98 | July 2, 2010 6:17 PM

Can you provide a link for this, please?

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 6:26 PM | Report abuse

This means as the coaches and schemes churn, so do the players.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 2, 2010 6:05 PM

Petitbon was promoted by ownership in the wake of triumphant years, tough shoes to fill and no surprise he was a goner.

Turner might have been given another season or two, but ownership turmoil and impatient nouveau purchaser doomed that opportunity.

Robiskie... never mind.

Schottenheimer was on the right track, but if ownership and coach personalities clash, what do you expect?

Spurrier was a predictable disaster after ownership attempted to hit a home run out of the college ranks.

Gibbs 2.0 was a marketing ploy by ownership to tap into the goodwill of a betrayed fan base, did the best with what he had (as always!) but didn't stick around... also predictable.

Zorn was either a clever stop-gap before hiring an established coach and/or an insane example of ownership dysfunction.

bonus question for hamsters... what is the common theme among the above???

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 6:48 PM | Report abuse

what is the common theme among the above???

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 6:48 PM

That you have the same cynical attitude about the owner that many people up here have? Is this what you're getting at?

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 6:53 PM | Report abuse

The Heat can add Lebron with Wade and use a sign and trade move to add an additional star to create a team a lot like what the Celts feature with

Garnett/Pierce/Wallace/Allen.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 2, 2010 4:05 PM |

Wallace? You put his name with the other three? What an idiot! Wallace is going to retire. The dud is doner than one of the charred burgers on your backyard grill. He looked awful in game 7 when he had to replace Perk. Towards the end of the game he could hardly move. Did you watch game 7? Probably too busy studying for end-of-semester Remedial Ed exams.

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 6:59 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 6:53 PM

mol... cynical and realistic are flip sides of the same coin.

"Lead then, said Eve. He, leading, swiftly rolled
In tangles, and made intricate seem straight,
To mischief swift. Hope elevates, and joy
Brightens his crest; as when a wandering fire,
Compact of unctuous vapour, which the night
Condenses, and the cold environs round,
Kindled through agitation to a flame,
Which oft, they say, some evil Spirit attends,
Hovering and blazing with delusive light,
Misleads the amazed night-wanderer from his way
To bogs and mires, and oft through pond or pool;
There swallowed up and lost, from succour far."

hard to engage with a will o' wisp, so various pseudonymous apparitions should enjoy their run of the blog this evening.

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 7:07 PM | Report abuse

"I think the missing piece of the draft vs. free agent debate is the coach...All of the successful teams have consistency at the coaching level. Pats, Eagles, Saints..hell even the Bengals are coming around. Look what we've done...
Zorn...2 years
Gibbs...4 years (2 playoff appearences)
Spurrier....2 years
Schottenheimer...1 year
This means as the coaches and schemes churn, so do the players.Posted by: rickyroge"

That argument gets circular. Why do teams change coaches? In an effort to stop the losing. When coaching stabilizes, it's generally because the team is winning. It's not just that stability breeds winning; it's that winning breeds stability.

The Saints brought in Sean Payton to stop the losing. His job is secure, unless the team starts to lose again (not out of the question if anything happens to Brees). In that event, the drumbeats will start to replace the guy. I can tell you that the fans will quickly split into two groups: those who remain loyal and those who insist the team should fire the bum.

When is it the right time to replace a coaching staff? I don't know of a formula for that.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2010 7:11 PM | Report abuse

Congrats to greenback for creating a little discussion on a RIP post. Well done, even if you're wrong.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 2, 2010 7:14 PM | Report abuse

hard to engage with a will o' wisp, so various pseudonymous apparitions should enjoy their run of the blog this evening.

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 7:07 PM |

I cleaned out all of barn 5's milking machine pipes. So, if you want to start heading over to stall 17 (not stalag 17), they can get you hooked up and lactating like a champ.

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 7:18 PM | Report abuse

I think a lot of fans would argue that Dan Snyder's big mistake was firing Marty Schottenheimer. But Dan was a very inexperienced owner at that time, yet to realize that despite his business success, he didn't know what he was doing when it came to building a football franchise. Dan recoiled at Marty's domineering and sometimes unpleasant personality (as did other owners who employed him). But for all his flaws, Marty puts a winning product on the field.

We knew going into Gibbs 2.0 that it would last three or four seasons at the max. There was a 'been there, done that' feel to it.

I think the key to success with Shanahan will be Bruce Allen. Whether he can keep his employer at bay during the inevitable lean times...

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2010 7:18 PM | Report abuse

I noticed on website 32D that Scott Campbell and Algeria Brown still head up the Skins personnel dept. These two are holdovers from the K Cop era. Brown seems to have some skills but Scott Campbell is a total doosh as anyone who posts on this blog will readily attest to. Curious that Shanahan/Allen have not replaced either one by now. Mebbe website 32D is not up-to-date.

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 7:32 PM | Report abuse

It is a travesty that Coryell was not a first ballot hall of famer, and he is still not in the HOF! Coryell was 25 years ahead of his time! No team in the 70's was anyting like AIR CORYELL'S CHARGERS! No team.

In 1982 SD had to play in CIN in the coldest game in NFL history, -59! NFL talked about calling game because it was the 1982 AFC Championship, but UNFORTUNATELY last minute decided to play it.

Man was I mad! Negative 59 was CIN only hope of beating SD.

The GREAT SD team with AIR CORYELL was supposed to go on to crush SF in the SuperBowl!

A 70 degree SD team playing in weather with a 130 degree discrepancy?!

That's expecting a little too much. They looked MUCH WORSE than Miami in NE in JAN!

130 DEGREES!

The wrong team was representing the AFC! As the NFL was considering rescheduling this game, SD and Coryell would be a SBowl winning coach and the Redskins would be the team of the 80's chosen over SF!

I will never forget that!

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/13590561/coryells-farreaching-influence-will-never-be-forgotten?tag=globalNav.nfl;headlines

Posted by: artsnsportz | July 2, 2010 7:39 PM | Report abuse

It's not just that stability breeds winning; it's that winning breeds stability.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2010 7:11 PM

Did you read this somewhere or did it come to you? Very clever.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 7:40 PM | Report abuse

Coryell was definitely one of the more influential coaches, though he doesn't get into the HOF on his record. Truthfully, I'm surprised George Allen made it, as he only got to 1 SB. That Lombardi guy seemed to hog the spotlight during Allen's years in LA

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2010 7:47 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: artsnsportz | July 2, 2010 7:39 PM

remember watching that one on a tiny portable B&W TV with (maybe) a six-inch diagonal screen...

hugely disappointing, but my feeling is the game should be played in the elements.

contrast the heat and humidity of the Miami game with the arctic conditions in Cincinnati.

amazing.

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 7:52 PM | Report abuse

Madden had a better record in the NFL than Gibbs:

Madden: 112-39-7
Gibbs: 171-101-0

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 2:41

Dude, Gibbs coached in the NFC East; even with your football IQ, you should be able to decipher that.

Posted by: abxinc | July 2, 2010 8:05 PM | Report abuse

The St Louis Rams of Vermeil/Martz seemed to come out of the same type of mold as Coryell's "Air" teams. The 1999 SB champs had a good D in addition to being "pass -happy" - it was ranked 4th in the league.

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 8:18 PM | Report abuse

hugely disappointing, but my feeling is the game should be played in the elements.

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 2, 2010 7:52 PM |

I agree. It is very important that there be oxygen to breathe. And without silver there would be no coin to flip to see who is kicking off.

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 8:23 PM | Report abuse

Dude, Gibbs coached in the NFC East; even with your football IQ, you should be able to decipher that.

Posted by: abxinc | July 2, 2010 8:05 PM

Gibbs played @ 1:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. Madden had to play @ 10:00 in the morning.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 8:35 PM | Report abuse

ELDrano- semi clever play on the elements..

Lemme ax you a question. I notice you never pass on taking a shot at Moe? Care to share?

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 2, 2010 8:42 PM | Report abuse

Now, boy time, go back and read how many games each of them coached. Pretty clear that if Madden had hung around as long as Gibbs did he would have four SB's not three. Gibbs showed what he was made of in Gibss 2.0 -- couldn't get it done without Bobby Beatherd. What was his playoff record in 2.0?

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 3:47 PM

Look, you stupid MoFo, They coached practically the same # of years.....take away the Gibbs 2.0 years....Madden coached during the 12 and 14 game seasons...

Now get your facts straight before you enter.....

I meant to say Big Boy, not Boy too...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 8:50 PM | Report abuse

"Did you read this somewhere or did it come to you? Very clever.Posted by: greenback"

LOL not clever, just logical.

There are exceptions. I was thinking Cincinnati keeping Marvin Lewis in spite of their up-and-down record. A lot of owners would have hung him out to dry. Will it pay off? I'm not certain.

We watched something similar with Ed Jordan and the Wizards. Usually the GM gets to hire the coach but Jordan was already in place when Ernie Grunfeld was hired. Ernie clearly wasn't comfortable with the arrangement but Abe Pollin supported Jordan as the coach. As long as the club won, Jordan was safe. Once the club started to struggle, he wasn't. Then they got off to a terrible start and Grunfeld fired him.

Did the team improve under a new coach? Not at all. Should they have kept Jordan, in hindsight? It's hard to say.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2010 8:55 PM | Report abuse

Lemme ax you a question. I notice you never pass on taking a shot at Moe? Care to share?

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 2, 2010 8:42 PM |

You bring up a good point. Initially he seemed to be the kind of target to go after, brazenly stupid. But mebbe I sould back off and give it a rest. I can see my critiques are not going to change him and there seems to be something inherently inhumane about continuing to beat away.

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 9:00 PM | Report abuse

4th, just heard Wade is leaning toward signing with the Bulls. So it will be Wade and Lebron in the Chi. Bosh will sign elsewhere. Likely Miami. Which is making plans to add Ray Felton and Brendan Haywood in the event they lose Wade.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 2, 2010 9:03 PM | Report abuse

Dude, Gibbs coached in the NFC East; even with your football IQ, you should be able to decipher that.

Posted by: abxinc | July 2, 2010 8:05 PM

Gibbs played @ 1:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. Madden had to play @ 10:00 in the morning.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 8:35 PM


Playing in the NFC East has nothing to do with time. NFC East simply represents the greatest competition amongst its teams in the NFL, even till today. I'm going to let you slide on this dude, but repent.

Posted by: abxinc | July 2, 2010 9:04 PM | Report abuse

Gibbs played @ 1:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. Madden had to play @ 10:00 in the morning.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 8:35 PM |

Doubt the dude ever played at 10:00 AM. At that ungodly hour nobody from the Raider Nation is sentient. When the games were at home they started at 1:00 PM, 4:00 PM on the east coast.

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 9:05 PM | Report abuse

According to his Wiki entry, here's John Madden's record:
1 Super Bowl XI victory (1976)
Regular season record 103-32-7
Playoff record 9 wins, 7 losses
Overall record 112-39-7

Most admirable, but I don't know how you could compare him as a head coach to Gibbs and come out with Big John ahead. The Raiders of that era were widely believed to be the creation of Al Davis, not John Madden or Art Shell. Oakland had that marvelous regular season record, but how much credit does Madden get for it?

I couldn't tell. I don't think anyone could at the time it was going on. That's how big a shadow Al cast in Oakland.

Gibbs has that glossy 17-7 postseason record; those four trips to the Super Bowl; those three victories with three different QBs; and one additional trip to the NFC championship game with still another QB. That's a HOF resume if we ever saw one.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2010 9:07 PM | Report abuse

That's a HOF resume if we ever saw one.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2010 9:07 PM |

Hard to argue with that. What about the "2 SBs in strife-torn strike seasons when it wasn't exactly a SOP deal" shti that peeps bring up?

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 9:15 PM | Report abuse

Wade ti Chi makes sense....Still don't think Lebron will go....unless it's a 4 year Deal...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 9:29 PM | Report abuse

Coryell, Gibbs or Madden...it sure is fun to go back in time and see the success all of Coryell teams and his assistants had.

In his youth, Gibbs was the most creative offensive coordinator in the NFC, Madden had a great vertical passing game and Coryell-led San Diego Chargers were a lot of fun to watch.

Posted by: dc1020008 | July 2, 2010 9:30 PM | Report abuse

4th, just heard Wade is leaning toward signing with the Bulls. So it will be Wade and Lebron in the Chi.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 2, 2010 9:03 PM |

Putting those two together doesn't strike me as being a good pairing. They both like to do the same kinds of things. Too much overlap and duplication game-wise, not to mention how to accomodate two big egos on the same team. LeBron needs to go to a team that has role players that compliment his skills - think Kobe and the Lakers. He needs to play with a big man that can do a lot of the dirty work inside. Joakim Noah is a child compared to Dwight Howard. The Celtics beat the Magic in the playoffs but during and after the series there was a long waiting line at the infirmary in dire need of medical relief for all the lumps and bruise that Superman had doled out.

Posted by: ElDrano | July 2, 2010 9:33 PM | Report abuse

NFC East simply represents the greatest competition amongst its teams in the NFL, even till today. I'm going to let you slide on this dude, but repent.

Posted by: abxinc | July 2, 2010 9:04 PM |

In Gibbs 1.0 it meant two easy games each year against St. Louis Cardinals.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 10:47 PM | Report abuse

Now get your facts straight before you enter.....

I meant to say Big Boy, not Boy too...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 8:50 PM |

Facts straight? You try to get your words straight.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 10:51 PM | Report abuse

For you fellow 'Skins fans from the 70's, how frustrating it was playing against the 'Cardiac Cardinals' under Coryell. Their offense was explosive, unpredictable, and was befuddling to the old-school George Allen. They had one hell of an o-line with Dierdorf and Dirty Conrad Dobler, which may have been the template the Hogs. While Walsh's WCO was more ball-control, Coryell's offense was more down-the-field, explosive, and entertaining.
Godspeed, Coach Coryell; your legacy lives on, and has made the league better because of it.

Posted by: pdfordiii | July 2, 2010 11:07 PM | Report abuse

It is an absolute joke that Coryell died before entering the Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio. Here's hoping that injustice is properly dealt with posthumously...though the shame will of course remain.

http://www.hogshaven.com/2010/7/2/1549745/don-coryell-changed-the-game-and?ref=CBS

Posted by: artsnsportz | July 3, 2010 12:54 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: artsnsportz

CO-SIGN.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 3, 2010 1:14 AM | Report abuse

We watched something similar with Ed Jordan and the Wizards. Usually the GM gets to hire the coach but Jordan was already in place when Ernie Grunfeld was hired. Ernie clearly wasn't comfortable with the arrangement but Abe Pollin supported Jordan as the coach. As long as the club won, Jordan was safe. Once the club started to struggle, he wasn't. Then they got off to a terrible start and Grunfeld fired him.

Did the team improve under a new coach? Not at all. Should they have kept Jordan, in hindsight? It's hard to say.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2010 8:55 PM

This isn't how it happened at all. Jordan was a player and a GM of the Wizards. He was never the coach.

Abe Pollin hired Jordan to be Director of Basketball operations. Pollin fired Jordan, himself, on May 7, 2003. Pollin hired Grunfeld in June, 2003 to take Jordan's job.

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 7:01 AM | Report abuse

Hey greenback, are you even a Redskins fan at all? What's your team?

Posted by: monk811 | July 3, 2010 7:36 AM | Report abuse

Gibbs played @ 1:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. Madden had to play @ 10:00 in the morning.

Posted by: greenback

I missed the debate with greenback last night,but I want to make sure I'm getting this right.You cats were actually going back and forth about who was the better coach between Madden or Gibbs with a guy who doesn't understand the concept of eastern and pacific time?What the hell?

Posted by: smittdiddy | July 3, 2010 7:58 AM | Report abuse

Hey greenback, are you even a Redskins fan at all? What's your team?

Posted by: monk811 | July 3, 2010 7:36 AM |

I wouldn't post here if I didn't love the Redskins. What about you? Are you a Jesuit monk or a Franciscan monk?

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 8:00 AM | Report abuse

Are you naive or just dumb? I grew up watching Art Monk so he became my favorite player.
So why all the Joe Gibbs bashing on here the last couple days? What, did he refuse to give you an autograph one day and you have a personal vendetta against him now?

Posted by: monk811 | July 3, 2010 8:11 AM | Report abuse

So why all the Joe Gibbs bashing on here the last couple days? What, did he refuse to give you an autograph one day and you have a personal vendetta against him now?

Posted by: monk811 | July 3, 2010 8:11 AM

Gibbs bashing? You've got me confused with someone else. Gibbs 1.0 was a great coach, deservedly in the HOF. Gibbs 2.0 was neither. My only beef is with the assertion up here that Gibbs is the greatest coach Coryell trained. I'm holding up Madden as a possibility. Most people up here disagree. Fine. Agree to disagree. If that's "Gibbs bashing" then you're a Jesuit.

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 8:29 AM | Report abuse

Facts straight? You try to get your words straight.

Posted by: greenback | July 2, 2010 10:51 PM

Facts are more important than side comment mistakes....

And the fact is Madden had to play Jim Zorn, the player 2x a year.....How did those games turn out?

And you got your Jordans mixed up above....he was talking about Eddie Jordan, the Coach, who was hired before Abe hired Grunfield....

And you have not yet addressed the stated playoff records as well....

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 3, 2010 8:34 AM | Report abuse

I agree with the heart of what you're saying, but I just can't buy that your core players HAVE to be drafted guys. I mean, the two best players on the Saints (the example you brought up) are Drew Brees on offense and Darren Sharper on defense. Both are FA signings.

The core of the Pats had a good mix of FAs and drafted guys. It's all relative...the only thing that matters is getting the RIGHT guys. HOW you got 'em doesn't matter.

Hessone, no offense, but you're an asshat. See how putting "no offense" in front of an insulting comment makes absolutely NO difference whatsoever?
Posted by: brownwood26

Core doesn't mean two players on the roster. Core means the majority of the guys who see playing time. Good teams build through the draft and add a few good free agents to the team each year. I don't know the saints roster well enough to know who was drafted and who was a free agent. Sharper was a low cost 1 year deal for the Saints. He was hardly a signing that would be considered building a team. The teams that are competing for super bowls are not the most active teams in free agency. They rarely make the big dollar deals with other teams free agents. You still haven't given an example of team that was built through free agency.

Of the potential 53 man roster for the skins only about 15-17 players will have been drafted by the Skins. Building through free agency does not work for a couple of reasons. 1. You are paying more per player than having a roster made up of guys that are on entry level contracts or within 5 years of being in the league. This causes the team to not be able to have quality depth. 2. The player is coming in from another system so you are not starting with a clean slate like a guy just drafted. If you make a mistake with a drafted guy it is not as costly as with a free agent contract. Unless of course it is a top 5 pick. 3. All of this causes the roster to have high turnover because of cap limitations. With complex schemes run in the NFL replacing more than 1 or 2 starters each year is not a recipe for success. Especially if you are replacing them from free agency.

Of course this means you have to evaluate talent in the draft in order to have success. Looking back at the Skins draft and you see why they had no choice but to hit free agency.

Posted by: srobert1117 | July 3, 2010 8:35 AM | Report abuse

And you have not yet addressed the stated playoff records as well....

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 3, 2010 8:34 AM

Well, no hock, Sherlock. What's to address? Gibbs had a better playoff record. The facts speak for themselves. Madden had a better overall record and winning percentage. The facts speak for themselves.

And, yeah, Eddie Jordan makes a lot more sense in that context than Michael Jordan.

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 8:47 AM | Report abuse

Erudite day up in here, from Puritan poets to Jesuit monks. Maybe stow the verbal IED's?

PFT posts that Favre is working out with Jason Campbell. Somehow that made me feel good. I don't miss him here, but I hope he helps himself with the Raiders.

Posted by: SonofNero | July 3, 2010 8:47 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 8:29 AM | Report abuse

So he deserves to be in the HOF because of his first stint, but because he came back and didn't win a SB he should be taken out? We all know the game passed him by a little, but still taking the scrap-heap of a team he inherited from Spurrier and going to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years means he does deserve to be in the HOF. You can have your opinion, it just seems like you were putting down a legend. And let's face it, your name is greenback, I thought you were an Eagles spy or something.

Posted by: monk811 | July 3, 2010 9:23 AM | Report abuse

@monk811

You think he should be in the HOF because he went to the playoffs 2 years out of 4? His record those four years was 30-34 and that proves he deserves to be in the HOF? Man, it doesn't take much to get into your HOF.

Greenback is an Eagles fan? I thought it was a term for US currency.

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 9:57 AM | Report abuse

"Hard to argue with that. What about the "2 SBs in strife-torn strike seasons when it wasn't exactly a SOP deal" shti that peeps bring up?Posted by: ElDrano"

I think it's a legit question, but didn't everybody have to play under those same rules? I look at it this way -- any coaching staff that can win with Ed Rubbert at QB, even against replacement players, is pretty good.

The Pro Football Hall isn't the political creature that MLB's is, but it's still basically a popularity contest. Both Gibbs and Madden are in, so there's nothing really to argue about.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 10:01 AM | Report abuse

No, just like for the past 2 days, you aren't listening, so you must be an Eagles fan.
I said CONSIDERING that the game passed him by a little, he still took a sh*tty team to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years. You only hear what you want to hear, that's why you are wrong.
Yeah, greenback is currency. So you're like a bad penny, you always turn up.

Posted by: monk811 | July 3, 2010 10:05 AM | Report abuse

"Jordan was a player and a GM of the Wizards. He was never the coach.Abe Pollin hired Jordan to be Director of Basketball operations. Pollin fired Jordan, himself, on May 7, 2003. Pollin hired Grunfeld in June, 2003 to take Jordan's job.Posted by: greenback"

Hope you don't mind if I post the above over on the Wizards' board. They'll get a kick out of it. Dumb football fan, that's what they'll say, mistaking Ed Jordan for Michael. I have to agree.

From NBA.com:
"Born and raised in Washington, DC, Ed Jordan most recently served as head coach of his hometown Wizards from 2003-04 through the first 11 games of the 2008-09 season. He inherited a team that posted a losing record in five straight seasons with a .370 winning percentage over that span."

"Jordan’s Wizards made four straight playoff appearance from 2004-05 through 2007-08, posting a .521 winning percentage over that span. Prior to Jordan’s arrival, Washington made the playoffs once over a 16-year span."

"A number of players flourished under Jordan during his time in Washington. Gilbert Arenas was named to three consecutive All-NBA teams from 2005 through 2007. Arenas, Antawn Jamison and Caron Butler all made their All-Star debuts while playing for Jordan."

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Wow, greenback's wrong again, who'da thunk it.

Posted by: monk811 | July 3, 2010 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Hope you don't mind if I post the above over on the Wizards' board.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 10:09 AM

Thanks for clarifying that and sure feel free to post on the Wizards' board. Not sure how anyone can feel more foolish than a Wizards' fan considering that franchise's record, but if this will help to cheer them up then it has to be worthwhile.

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 10:34 AM | Report abuse

"Not sure how anyone can feel more foolish than a Wizards' fan considering that franchise's record"

LOL that's certainly true...

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 10:36 AM | Report abuse

I like the argument of Gibbs Vs. Madden.

I too have to give it to post season wins.
Many a coach can look good in a season based on the teams they play or just having the other teams number.

It is in fact in the post season that the best play the best. This has shown in years past with huge lopsided post season play that showed that all divisions are not created equal.

Take for example the Redskins loss to the Raiders in the Superbowl. With the trashing the redskins took in that game and honestly with a huge come from behind victory against the Raiders during the regular season a game the Redskins should have lost.

Now lets take into account the Raiders that year had a record of 12-4.

The Redskins a beast of a team sporting a season record 14-2.

Who was the better team that year and being a huge Redskins fan. I have to tip my hat to the raiders it wasn't even close. 38-9 really cant be argued.

Who was the best coach that year you have to give it to Tom Flores of the Raiders. It hurts me to say it but that was the reality of the 1983 season.

So back on point the post season record is the culmination of great coaching. It would be unfair of me to claim Gibbs the better Coach on 1983.

In the same way Madden cannot live up to Joe Gibbs record either the post season is the gold standard by which coaches must be graded.

Posted by: Brian429 | July 3, 2010 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Not sure how anyone can feel more foolish than a Wizards' fan considering that franchise's record

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 10:34 AM |

One could argue that Skins fans are more foolish based upon their record over the past decade, But that would be a purely SUBJECTIVE argument that can't be definatively proven either way. Kinda like arguing about who is the best coach, or who is the best rapper, of wether apples are better than oranges.

Ignore the Trolls!

Posted by: kaasmaster | July 3, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

"Who was the better team that year and being a huge Redskins fan. I have to tip my hat to the raiders it wasn't even close. 38-9 really cant be argued.
Who was the best coach that year you have to give it to Tom Flores of the Raiders. ...It would be unfair of me to claim Gibbs the better Coach on 1983.posted by Brian429"

I thought we were talking about John Madden.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Two guys who get it:

It's like comparing Apples and Turduckens.

Posted by: TheCork | July 2, 2010 4:17 PM

Kinda like arguing about who is the best coach, or who is the best rapper, of wether apples are better than oranges.

Posted by: kaasmaster | July 3, 2010 11:01 AM


And two guys who don't get it:

Are you naive or just dumb?

Posted by: monk811 | July 3, 2010 8:11 AM

Look, you stupid MoFo...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 2, 2010 8:50 PM

Posted by: greenback | July 3, 2010 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Just for fun, thought I'd list postseason records for other coaches alongside those of Gibbs and Madden:

Gibbs 17-7
Madden 9-7
Bill Parcells 11-8
Bill Cowher 12-9
Mike Shanahan 8-5
Andy Reid 10-8
Bill Belichick 15-5
Mike Holmgren 13-11
Tony Dungy 9-10

And some all-time greats
Tom Landry 20-16
Jimmy Johnson 9-4
George Allen 2-7
Chuck Noll 16-8
Bill Walsh 10-4

And Vince Lombardi at 9-1.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

The fact that Madden Won in all is a great feat!

He had some of the worst players in the league and he won with them.

Madden probley would have won another SB if not for bad officiating and the Steelers would have one less SB.

If it were not for that stupid "dubious" trade by Minnesota to Dallas. (I smell Jones wheelin and dealin)
Jimmy Johnson would not have won his SB!

I love Gibbs too but we have to believe that it was Bobby Beatherd who provided the Redskins with the winning tradition we all love.

Posted by: SOLVBACK | July 3, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

Go Germany!! Whipped Argentina's azz 4-0.

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 3, 2010 1:17 PM | Report abuse

lizmathews12

#Seahawks RB Quinton Ganther arrested in California on suspicion of DUI per the Seattle Times.

If you're trying to make a roster you really have to be careful about giving a team any reason to want you gone. Too many good running backs available and too easy to find a new one.

Posted by: will_ga | July 3, 2010 2:19 PM | Report abuse

"The fact that Madden Won in all is a great feat! He had some of the worst players in the league and he won with them."

Actually he has some really good players. Here's are some from '76:

QB Ken Stabler
RBs Clarence Davis HB, Mark van Eehgan FB, Pete Banaszak, Carl Garrett
WRs Fred Biletnikoff, Cliff Branch
TE Dave Casper
OL Art Shell, Gene Upshaw
DL John Matuszak, Otis Sistrunk
LB Phil Villapiano, Ted Hendricks
DBs George Atkinson, Willie Brown, Jack Tatum, Skip Thomas
P Ray Guy, PR Neal Colzie, KR Carl Garrett

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 2:32 PM | Report abuse

Was wondering when bang cartoons would make a big Al cartoon...well here it is! lol


http://www.bangcartoon.com/2010/Channel_surfing_ten.htm

Posted by: leevi98 | July 3, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

Building through free agency does not work for a couple of reasons. 1. You are paying more per player than having a roster made up of guys that are on entry level contracts or within 5 years of being in the league. This causes the team to not be able to have quality depth. 2. The player is coming in from another system so you are not starting with a clean slate like a guy just drafted. If you make a mistake with a drafted guy it is not as costly as with a free agent contract. Unless of course it is a top 5 pick. 3. All of this causes the roster to have high turnover because of cap limitations. With complex schemes run in the NFL replacing more than 1 or 2 starters each year is not a recipe for success. Especially if you are replacing them from free agency.

Posted by: srobert1117

This is a really good -- and important -- analysis (only disagree with one point -- turn over is more than 1-2 starters a year). Teams need a group of overachieving underpaid players -- these are usually 2nd round and lower draft picks in the first 4-5 years of their career.

In contrast ...

Shanahan is in a 'win now' mode -- and you can't go 1/2 way on that. Which is why VJax makes sense (+ he's a young guy still). But you can only fit about 3 guys on a roster that you pay around $10mil/year -- is VJax one of those guys? We've got 2 guys about to grab the big paycheck, McNabb and TWilliams. Albert's already got his, and Orakpo has a few more years before he gets the big payday.

Do we want VJax, McNabb and TWilliams to take up 1/4 of our payroll?

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 4:20 PM | Report abuse

Been gone for a week...did I miss anything important?

Are we seriously thinking of trading for Vincent Jackson or is it a bunch of PFT/LaCanfora see-if-the-crap-sticks-to-the-wall rumors?

Posted by: p1funk | July 3, 2010 5:15 PM | Report abuse

See where Gibbs v Madden and the VJax issues are petering out.

So I offer this to get passions re-ignited:

CBS Sports is reporting Philly is VERY SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING releasing one Michael Vick, no matter the results of the police investigation...

Should the 'skins try to pick him up by the ears?

Let me offer a big NEIN DANKA to start the bidding.

Posted by: TheCork | July 3, 2010 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 5:44 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: artsnsportz | July 3, 2010 5:44 PM | Report abuse

Shanahan is in a 'win now' mode --

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 4:20 PM

So are the other 31 coaches in the league.

Posted by: ChesterPeek | July 3, 2010 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Shanahan is in a 'win now' mode --

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 4:20 PM

So are the other 31 coaches in the league.

Posted by: ChesterPeek

Plenty of teams are in 'build' mode. Shanahan is trying to build a playoff team in 1 year. If Jamaal Brown works out, and our RG guys do OK, he might pull it off.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 6:34 PM | Report abuse

Plenty of teams are in 'build' mode.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 6:34 PM

"teams" maybe, but coaches aren't. They want to win now. All 32 of them. Have you ever heard one say "I'm happy to lose now if it means we'll build for the future"? Maybe after they've lost, but not at the beginning of the season.

Posted by: ChesterPeek | July 3, 2010 6:39 PM | Report abuse

"teams" maybe, but coaches aren't. They want to win now. All 32 of them. Have you ever heard one say "I'm happy to lose now if it means we'll build for the future"? Maybe after they've lost, but not at the beginning of the season.

Posted by: ChesterPeek | July 3, 2010 6:39 PM |

On the nose Chester. This is what have you done for me lately league not a what will you do for me in 3 years.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 3, 2010 6:58 PM | Report abuse

Brian429"

I thought we were talking about John Madden.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 11:04 AM | Report abuse

OK Ill try again. Using the 1983 seemed appropriate as it pointed out the fatal flaw in the most wins philosophy. Given that year as a standard and I used because the skins got blown out in that Superbowl showing that season wins are no indication of how good a coach is comparable to the league.

Given the statement that Madden was better than Gibbs. Which is what I was talking about. You would than have to claim that Gibbs was the best coach in 1983 even after loosing the Superbowl.

How about a bit more recent. You would also have to claim that the Patriots Coach was the coach of the year in 2007 even when the failure upstart giants beat them in the Superbowl.

Again I think Madden was a great head coach. However in the end you have to give Credit to Gibbs.

Posted by: Brian429 | July 3, 2010 8:08 PM | Report abuse

"teams" maybe, but coaches aren't. They want to win now. All 32 of them. Have you ever heard one say "I'm happy to lose now if it means we'll build for the future"? Maybe after they've lost, but not at the beginning of the season.

Posted by: ChesterPeek | July 3, 2010 6:39 PM |

On the nose Chester. This is what have you done for me lately league not a what will you do for me in 3 years.

Posted by: scampbell1975

last year, 8 teams lost 11 or more games -- but only 2 replaced their coach (us and Seattle). There a plenty of teams that are building. As for coaches wanting to win, of course. But Shanahan's moves so far are in his role as team president, not as HC. And they reflect a 'win in 2010' approach, over a build for 2011 approach

Rams 1 win
Det 2 wins
Tampa 3 wins
Skins 4 wins
KC 4 wins
Cle 5 wins
Oak 5 wins
Sea 5 wins

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 8:45 PM | Report abuse

"OK Ill try again. Using the 1983 seemed appropriate as it pointed out the fatal flaw in the most wins philosophy. Given that year as a standard and I used because the skins got blown out in that Superbowl showing that season wins are no indication of how good a coach is comparable to the league.posted by Brian429"

You confused me by switching to Tom Flores in the middle of a discussion of John Madden and Joe Gibbs. But the Super Bowl is one game and a victory or loss, blowout or no, doesn't stand alone as a measure of how good a coach is. Multiple Super Bowls, on the other hand, are likely to be a much better measure, and postseason victories are probably better still, since the postseason is about higher stakes and better opponents.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 3, 2010 9:10 PM | Report abuse

last year, 8 teams lost 11 or more games -- but only 2 replaced their coach (us and Seattle).

Rams 1 win
Det 2 wins
Tampa 3 wins
Skins 4 wins
KC 4 wins
Cle 5 wins
Oak 5 wins
Sea 5 wins

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 8:45 PM |

Most of them had replaced their coaches the year before.

Posted by: ChesterPeek | July 3, 2010 10:47 PM | Report abuse

Most of them had replaced their coaches the year before.

Posted by: ChesterPeek |

Exactly -- new coaches get a chance to build their team

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 11:36 PM | Report abuse

But Shanahan's moves so far are in his role as team president, not as HC.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 8:45 PM |

Not sure why you would say this. One of the biggest moves he has made is deciding to go 3-4 on D which sort of tripped off the AH brewhahaha. Mebbe AH would still have avoided OTAs, but even if, it is still a big move. The D has to get more TOs if the Skins are to improve and MS thinks that going with a 3-4 scheme can make a big difference in that regard.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 4, 2010 12:33 AM | Report abuse

But Shanahan's moves so far are in his role as team president, not as HC.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 8:45 PM |

Not sure why you would say this. One of the biggest moves he has made is deciding to go 3-4 on D which sort of tripped off the AH brewhahaha. Mebbe AH would still have avoided OTAs, but even if, it is still a big move. The D has to get more TOs if the Skins are to improve and MS thinks that going with a 3-4 scheme can make a big difference in that regard.

Posted by: SnakerJake

The 'win now' decision ... and the choice to acquire the talent to enable winning now ... are team president decisions. That several of the key players acquired are older, emphasizes that winning is expected this year.

Obviously, a coach makes choices that he thinks will lead to wins, the scheme is one of those coaching decisions (or should be).

Since Shanny has both jobs, the line may be blurred on which hat he's wearing for which decision.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 4, 2010 12:52 AM | Report abuse

Brock Lesnar vs. Shane Carwin
Round 1
Both fighters start tentitve and paw out jabs. Carwin clips Lesnar with a left hook and uses a whizzer to defend a powerful shot. The fighters stand and Carwin connects with a knee. Carwin is bullying Lesnar around the cage with punches, bullrushing him against the fence. Lesnar slips and Carwin pours it on with punches as referee Josh Rosenthal watches on closely. Carwin continues to tee off with both hands as Lesnar does nothing but defend from the bottom. Lesnar is bleeding from a cut above his left eye. Carwin lights him up with two hard elbows. Carwin stands in the guard and continues his assault as Lesnar just takes a beating. Carwin backs away for a moment to catch his breath and Lesnar kicks the left leg from his back. Carwin jumps back into half guard and seems to rest. Lesnar gets space to get to his feet and it appears the champion has survived a serious onslaught. Lesnar presses Carwin against the cage and knees the thigh. Lesnar attempts a single at the bell.

Jordan Breen scores the round 10-8 Carwin
Jack Encarnacao scores the round 10-8 Carwin
Mike Fridley scores the round: 10-8 Carwin

Round 2
For the first time in his career Carwin comes out for a second round. Carwin looks fatigued as he breaths with an open mouth. Lesnar loads up for a right hand and Carwin counters it with a short right hand. Lesnar drops levels and scores his first takedown of the fight. Lesnar punches the head with his left hand from the top in half guard. Lesnar moves to the mount and locks on an arm-triangle choke. Carwin moves to side control to finish the technique. Carwin looks to be in a safe position, but Lesnar’s strength is too much. Carwin taps at the 2:19 mark of round two.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 4, 2010 2:00 AM | Report abuse

Diesel, that's the second time. Luckily for me you didn't give it away in the first sentence this time. That certainly doesn't exempt you from dooshbag status for the spoiler. You are a d-bag.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 2:56 AM | Report abuse

Hope all you Skins fans have a great 4th!

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 4, 2010 8:31 AM | Report abuse

RIP , Don Coryell...

With the recent acquisition of Jamaal Brown, McNabb will make Devin and Austin shine, and a healthy rolling Moss will gather many stones..Nothing but a Santonio 5th for Jackson, IMO..

I could get me some jugular on Killing Joke for putting me in their songs...Especially after they sued my hippie Kurt for 80's copyright..Yeah, he was a sellout hippie, but he was also a homeless teen living under the bridge..Killing Joke did more for capitalist values with that lawsuit then any of their commie music ever did..FU very much...

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 8:49 AM | Report abuse

scamp- Not sure why you don't watch sporting events live and I really don't care to hear why...Once again, you're welcome d-bag.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 4, 2010 10:18 AM | Report abuse

Diesel, that's the second time. Luckily for me you didn't give it away in the first sentence this time. That certainly doesn't exempt you from dooshbag status for the spoiler. You are a d-bag.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 2:56 AM

scamp- Not sure why you don't watch sporting events live and I really don't care to hear why...Once again, you're welcome d-bag.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 4, 2010 10:18 AM


This will make for interesting off-season drama: two of RI's smaller intellects bringing their signature moves in a clash of the ding-dongs:

1. Diesel, who lives to be an annoying pest, has discovered a way to get under scampbell's skin and he will persist like a 12-year-old boy who has found out who his 15-year-old sister's boyfriend is. Look here for diesel's MMA recap (on a football blog) every week.

2. scampbell, who only posts to pick fights, has thrown down the gauntlet with his signature insult: "d-bag." No one has been able to resist this taunt, but it's only the preliminary to his right-wing homophobic insults which will be followed by giving his address and demanding that diesel drive out and get beaten like egg whites in a lemon meringue pie.

Oh, boy. This is going to be ... What's the word I'm looking for? dull? tired? monotonous?

Posted by: lxy32 | July 4, 2010 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Happy 4th to the RI nation. Will the Skins make through a holiday weekend without making another trade?

Posted by: TWISI | July 4, 2010 11:42 AM | Report abuse

likewise, happy 4th festivities everyone.... enjoy cold drinks and pyrotechnics responsibly but indulgently!

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 4, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

2. scampbell, who only posts to pick fights, has thrown down the gauntlet with his signature insult: "d-bag." No one has been able to resist this taunt, but it's only the preliminary to his right-wing homophobic insults which will be followed by giving his address and demanding that diesel drive out and get beaten like egg whites in a lemon meringue pie.

Oh, boy. This is going to be ... What's the word I'm looking for? dull? tired? monotonous?

Posted by: lxy32 | July 4, 2010 10:49 A

You must not be following the blog much over the last few months. I gave that sh!t up a couple of months ago. At least try to keep up...

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

scamp- Not sure why you don't watch sporting events live and I really don't care to hear why...Once again, you're welcome d-bag.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 4, 2010 10:18 AM

Because I have an 8 month old son and I don't always have the luxury of doing things when I would like to. Plus, I haven't found a watering hole out here yet that shows the fights.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 12:36 PM | Report abuse

Because I have an 8 month old son and I don't always have the luxury of doing things when I would like to. Plus, I haven't found a watering hole out here yet that shows the fights.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 12:36 PM

I bought the fight and had some folks over. Not sure if you have a greene turtle on the left coast but that's a good place to start.

If you're stuck at home and don't want to shell out the 55 bones I'll post a link where you can watch it for free..

Happy 4th, d-bag.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 4, 2010 1:15 PM | Report abuse

PREDICTION:

After seeing his shadow in MAY, Whistle-pig AL comes out of hibernation in 25 more days.

Posted by: glawrence007 | July 4, 2010 1:35 PM | Report abuse

Most of them had replaced their coaches the year before.

Posted by: ChesterPeek |

Exactly -- new coaches get a chance to build their team

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 3, 2010 11:36 PM | Report abuse

In D.C.'s case they're allowed two years evidently.

Posted by: glawrence007 | July 4, 2010 1:38 PM | Report abuse

With T.WILLIAMS, BROWN, and HICKS plus a rejuvinated M. WILLIAMS. I predict a solid improvement in O-line play in D.C. this fall.

Posted by: glawrence007 | July 4, 2010 1:41 PM | Report abuse

I bought the fight and had some folks over. Not sure if you have a greene turtle on the left coast but that's a good place to start.

If you're stuck at home and don't want to shell out the 55 bones I'll post a link where you can watch it for free..

Happy 4th, d-bag.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 4, 2010 1:15 PM

I used to pay the money but then the main events started suckin'. Anderson Silva v Forrest was a joke and so was Anderson's next fight. He just danced around the ring like he was too good to fight the guy. There was a disappointing Loyoto Machida fight and some other sorry ass fights. Then the BJ Penn v Frankie Edgar fight was a ridiculous decision. Could no longer justify paying the ridiculous cost for sub par fights.

A free link would be fine. My wife and I used to enjoy going to the Beef O Brady's in Ohio to watch 'em but the little one make's it a little more difficult. At least on the West Coast the time is more doable. Haven't heard of a Green Turtle. Would still like to catch a few now and then live but for now I have to settle for 2nd showing and DVR playbacks.

Happy 4th to you too a hole.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 2:06 PM | Report abuse

With T.WILLIAMS, BROWN, and HICKS plus a rejuvinated M. WILLIAMS. I predict a solid improvement in O-line play in D.C. this fall.

Posted by: glawrence007 | July 4, 2010 1:41 PM |

Couldn't be much worse.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 2:08 PM | Report abuse

Ich Bein Ein Chelada..Hair of the Godzilla, jeeziz..Happy Birthday, Gramps...I'm changing my name to ECOLOGICA, in melted psychedelic graffiti letters..While scamp and the Bushie SS seek to nuke the planet and fly off in their Nazi SS spaceship, we'll be resisting Armageddeon for our Ma Earth and in the Green section hailing the Skins...mmmm, chelada...

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 2:25 PM | Report abuse

Happy 4th to you too frak. Luckily for you a lot of people fought and died so you could spew your psychotic, paranoid, schizophrenic propaganda in relative freedom and peace. So happy 4th to you.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Happy Fourth to everyone! Even Cowboys fans....(smack)...

Do these characters I'm not using roll over?

Posted by: RomoLongballs | July 4, 2010 2:44 PM | Report abuse

Couldn't be much worse.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 2:08 PM | Report abuse

Amen to that.

Posted by: glawrence007 | July 4, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

For those of you who have been bogged down in the RI blog and haven't had a chance to come up for air, there is this flash from the nether world of professional sports:

Brock Lesnar triumphs over Shane Carwin at UFC 116

Even though he emerged victorious the Brockster did take his lumps during the fight. In fact, his face looked like burger meat in one post-fight interview. His mom would have been challenged to pick him out of a line-up.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 4, 2010 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, Bud, it ain't the FIRST Amendment fer nuthin'...And it ain't the "freedom" for corporations to rape and pillage the Earth, either..Learn from our afore mentioned Native Americans and have RESPECT for the Great Spirit..But RESPECT might be something you'd have a problem with, scamp..

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 3:12 PM | Report abuse

Oh yeah, and a Happy Fourth of July to you, too..

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 3:15 PM | Report abuse

In fact, his face looked like burger meat in one post-fight interview. His mom would have been challenged to pick him out of a line-up.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 4, 2010 3:10 PM |

I thought it was a nice touch that in the interview, which was in an early morning hour of July 4th, we got a view of mush-face to remind us of what we would be slapping on the grill later on in the day.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 4, 2010 3:23 PM | Report abuse

Do these characters I'm not using roll over?

Posted by: RomoLongballs | July 4, 2010 2:44 PM |

Is there an annoying lady to sound on us for not using them?

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 4, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

pre-training camp prediction:

Skins finish 7-9 with a 2-4 division record, split with Eagles and Giants, get swept by Cowboys

all three words apply Ixy32

Posted by: coparker5 | July 4, 2010 3:41 PM | Report abuse

..But RESPECT might be something you'd have a problem with, scamp..

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 3:12 PM |

You're one to talk.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 3:42 PM | Report abuse

mmmm, chelada...

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 2:25 PM |

Yes. mmmm mmmm good. Especially with clamidia juice.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 4, 2010 3:44 PM | Report abuse

Nice to see you use the term "rape" so loosely frak.....stay classy you political nitwits.

Posted by: RobInVaBeach | July 4, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

" His mom would have been challenged to pick him out of a line-up.Posted by: SnakerJake"

I imagine she's had practice.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 4, 2010 3:53 PM | Report abuse

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
frak and scrambly brains,
Anyone who mentions politics on a sports board is a complete and utter waste of human life. Take your Bush/Obama bashing to the front page nitwit.

Posted by: RobInVaBeach

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Posted by: skinshaveaGM | July 4, 2010 4:10 PM | Report abuse

the blog is dead. We have a skinshaveaGM/perineum sighting. The blog is dead.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1UPPAYsxLI

234 who'da thunk it? Happy 4th to fans of my second favorite NFL franchise.

And if I may. Go Holland. One time Oranje!

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 4, 2010 5:58 PM | Report abuse

Anybody got anything left to grill?

I got a hot fire going still and I'm out of meat as El Drano swallowed the big piece God gave me.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 4, 2010 5:59 PM | Report abuse

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Itsa good thing eldrano isn't here today, Moe, otherwise he'd be angry at what you said!

Better hope his friends(like tubularbells and the Vance Bros) aren't here or they might tell eldrano what you said, Moe.

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Posted by: skinshaveaGM | July 4, 2010 6:09 PM | Report abuse

*****4th of July*****

May we all celebrate capitalism

Posted by: skinshaveaGM | July 4, 2010 6:12 PM | Report abuse

Go Germany! Holland would be my second choice. Just so glad Argentina and Brazil are out!

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 4, 2010 6:28 PM | Report abuse

Germany is looking good, 65. I loved the spanking of the Argies, but I refuse to watch this game for a third time.

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 4, 2010 6:39 PM | Report abuse

I'm afraid Germany will miss Mueller and it was another totally bogus yellow card infraction. I hope they overcome their top scorer being out.

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 4, 2010 6:44 PM | Report abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16vZ_mWdizw

Love this band, hate the line at 1:48.

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 4, 2010 6:55 PM | Report abuse

Hey scamp, your meeting's at 8 in the church basement..Maybe the Post will give you comp time..

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 7:22 PM | Report abuse

skinhaveagm

"It's a good thing eldrano isn't here today... otherwise he'd be angry at what you said!"


El Drano isn't 'here'?

What, the WaPo has given it's paid bloggas the day off?

El Drano, tubularbells, and the Vance Bros. are probably out all testing ky jelly on each other.

And if they are all the same guy (which I suspect), well, that's just plain nasty.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 4, 2010 7:34 PM | Report abuse

Bill Simmons article on ESPN sums up why i like the World Cup so much!

I love the Cup because it stripped away all the things about professional sports that I've come to despise. No sideline reporters. No JumboTron. No TV timeouts. No onslaught of replays after every half-decent play. No gimmicky team names like the "Heat" or the "Thunder." (You know what the announcers call Germany? The Germans. I love this.) No announcers breathlessly overhyping everything or saying crazy things to get noticed. We don't have to watch 82 mostly half-assed games to get to the playoffs. We don't have 10 graphics on the screen at all times. We don't have to sit there for four hours waiting for a winner because pitchers are taking 25 seconds to deliver a baseball.

Go Germany, err Deutschland.

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 4, 2010 7:35 PM | Report abuse

1965skinsfan

"Go Germany!"


Me and Rotfrau have predicted Germany will win the World Cup.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 4, 2010 7:39 PM | Report abuse

hope you are right Moe. Really good YOUNG team. They'll be good for a long time.

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 4, 2010 7:51 PM | Report abuse

1965skinsfan

"Go Germany!"


Me and Rotfrau have predicted Germany will win the World Cup.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 4, 2010 7:39 PM

Germany's mid-field control and passing is just too god. They are looking like champs to me as well.

And I think Bill Simmons nailed it, though I am still a sucker for NFL Football.

Just got back from the Nats game - 4 hours of boring, do-nothing baseball. Fell asleep twice at a live game. Was there with friends who wanted to stay 'till the end. Just shoot me. Soooo bored.

Posted by: edvar | July 4, 2010 7:53 PM | Report abuse

edvar I too like NFL football. The regular season games are much more meaningful than any MLB or NBA regular season game. MLB can lose 10 for every 1 NFL game. What a joke.

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 4, 2010 8:10 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, Robin-in VaBeach, just like the 2 billion dollar security at the Toronto G-20 threatened to brutally rape protesters and journalists in their jail cells(DemocracyNow!), the corporate elites are going to hit us 9-11 hard again, probably to kick off a war with NKorea/China, to remove commie threat and OH YEAH , massive debt..Total corporate elite hijack of Federal DC..


Heheheh, Germany say night-night to Argentina...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZKY2Mqvs7I

So what, scamp...

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 8:16 PM | Report abuse

Fireworks at the high school next door. There's more Central America than Middle America streaming by. Kaboom!

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 4, 2010 8:20 PM | Report abuse

Hey scamp, your meeting's at 8 in the church basement..Maybe the Post will give you comp time..

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 7:22 PM | Report abuse

I guess you're just mister perfect. Don't need anything from anyone. Those people in those meetings are probably a much happier and together lot than yourself. Isn't it past your bedtime anyway? You do know that suicide is a solution right? Use it.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 8:24 PM | Report abuse

AA is hijacked by fash to weed out the poor and weak, or those targeted for gaslighting..Tool of fascist control...plenty of undercover ops f***in' up people's lives all over the country..Waste your time condescending to me, scamp op, I've been all over the US block..

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 8:38 PM | Report abuse

Bill Simmons article on ESPN sums up why i like the World Cup so much!

I love the Cup because it stripped away all the things about professional sports that I've come to despise. No sideline reporters. No JumboTron. No TV timeouts. No onslaught of replays after every half-decent play. No gimmicky team names like the "Heat" or the "Thunder." (You know what the announcers call Germany? The Germans. I love this.) No announcers breathlessly overhyping everything or saying crazy things to get noticed. We don't have to watch 82 mostly half-assed games to get to the playoffs. We don't have 10 graphics on the screen at all times. We don't have to sit there for four hours waiting for a winner because pitchers are taking 25 seconds to deliver a baseball.

Posted by: 1965skinsfan

And in the end you decide a champion on penalty kicks following an 0-0 score.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 4, 2010 8:59 PM | Report abuse

zce,

sometimes you do decide the games that way. I'd argue it is more fair than NFL overtimes

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 4, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Zeke -

You know I am a fan of yours, but your appreciation of soccer reminds me of buddy of mine who brought his wife to one of my epic Superbowl parties. To her, it's just big guys hitting each other, then they stop, and do it again. Every time they ran it up the middle, she wondered out loud why they didn't do something more useful than that?

There is so much going on in a soccer game beyond the occasional gaol, but to appreciate it, you have to have grown up with it and played it.

It's ok that people bash soccer because they don't get it. I have the same reaction to cricket (couldn't figure that game out if I wanted to - and I don't), but at least recognize that it is more than a bunch of guys in shorts running around trying to kick a ball. It is layered in complexity and strategy - the "game inside the game", much the same way all good team sports are - like football, baseball and basketball.

...or whatever.

Posted by: edvar | July 4, 2010 10:07 PM | Report abuse

From the People that brought you Lou Reed, Happy Birthday, America...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsBG-fFvMYY

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 10:19 PM | Report abuse

So the WC has come down to two semis, one pitting Germanic powers against each other and the other pitting Spanish-speaking nations against each other. Uruguay does not deserve to be in the semis, the others do. The final will pit a Latin nation against a Germanic nation. It will be Spain against the winner of the other semi which should be a good hard fought game. Like to see the Netherlands win over Germany and then Spain. But either a Spanish or a Dutch victory would be fine with me since each of the two are deserving of winning their first WC.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 12:43 AM | Report abuse

From the People that brought you Lou Reed, Happy Birthday, America...

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 10:19 PM |

Are these the same peeps that brought us Rex Reed?

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 12:46 AM | Report abuse

There is so much going on in a soccer game beyond the occasional gaol, ...

Posted by: edvar | July 4, 2010 10:07 PM |

Dude - you are spot on. The goal is way too occasional, there is not enough scoring and the viewer feels like they are in goal gaol. Too much up and down the field with nothing happening. Reminds one of the Skins O last year with Zoro and Soup. I wonder if the game might be spiced up a bit if there was no offsides penalty. Not a student of the game so mebbe my suggestion is off base, but it is something to think about.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 12:54 AM | Report abuse

AA is hijacked by fash to weed out the poor and weak, or those targeted for gaslighting..Tool of fascist control...plenty of undercover ops f***in' up people's lives all over the country..Waste your time condescending to me, scamp op, I've been all over the US block..

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

Posted by: frak | July 4, 2010 8:38 PM |

Here you go again, running your ignorant yap about things of which you know not. Is there anything you don't hate? I mean besides spanking your monkey into piles of your own feces and ball gags. I'm sure that this picture of you says it all:

http://micaiahsellsout.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/homeless1.jpg

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 1:52 AM | Report abuse

Zeke -

You know I am a fan of yours, but your appreciation of soccer reminds me of buddy of mine who brought his wife to one of my epic Superbowl parties. To her, it's just big guys hitting each other, then they stop, and do it again. Every time they ran it up the middle, she wondered out loud why they didn't do something more useful than that?

There is so much going on in a soccer game beyond the occasional gaol, but to appreciate it, you have to have grown up with it and played it.

It's ok that people bash soccer because they don't get it. I have the same reaction to cricket (couldn't figure that game out if I wanted to - and I don't), but at least recognize that it is more than a bunch of guys in shorts running around trying to kick a ball. It is layered in complexity and strategy - the "game inside the game", much the same way all good team sports are - like football, baseball and basketball.

...or whatever.

Posted by: edvar

funny, because I DID grow up playing soccer -- 200 days a year for about 3 or 4 years.

I'm sure there's plenty of nuance and great skills on the part of the players. I just don't find it interesting ... and its not like I haven't tried.

Have no issue with those that love the game. Just let me nap and wake me when Brandi rips off her shirt.

And lastly, a quick grammatical note: I believe gaol is the olde english spelling of jail. I think you meant goal, unless you were talking about playing soccer in philly, in which case gaol, or jail, is correct.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 3:03 AM | Report abuse

It's probably gonna be pretty slow up here today, but NFL.com has a good look at some of the QBs coming out in next year's draft:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d818eadc8/article/locker-headlines-a-solid-crop-of-senior-qb-prospects-for-2011

I know McNabb's our guy at least for the next 3 years or so, but with a QB class this deep, it can't hurt to start looking for a QB of the future now...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 5:51 AM | Report abuse

You must not be following the blog much over the last few months. I gave that sh!t up a couple of months ago. At least try to keep up...

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 4, 2010 12:34 PM

I mean besides spanking your monkey into piles of your own feces and ball gags. I'm sure that this picture of you says it all:

http://micaiahsellsout.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/homeless1.jpg

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 1:52 AM


scampbell1975 and barack obama are two of a kind: the more things change, the more they stay the same.

i'll try to keep up with your new style from now on, scampbell1975. just let me know when you actually have one, okay, you self-deluded pervert.

Posted by: lxy32 | July 5, 2010 6:52 AM | Report abuse

It's probably gonna be pretty slow up here today, but NFL.com has a good look at some of the QBs coming out in next year's draft:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d818eadc8/article/locker-headlines-a-solid-crop-of-senior-qb-prospects-for-2011

I know McNabb's our guy at least for the next 3 years or so, but with a QB class this deep, it can't hurt to start looking for a QB of the future now...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 5:51 AM |

This is one of the reason's many on this board were so against drafting Bradford or Clausen. Notice how on this list Case Keenum is ranked 10th among senior QBs while he projected in the top 5 of this past draft,

The 2011 draft looks like the year of the offense specialist QB, RB, WR all looking very deep.

Posted by: TWISI | July 5, 2010 8:08 AM | Report abuse

Exactly right, TWISI...and I was one of those screaming at the top of his lungs to pass on Bradford/Clausen.

Right now we focus on getting McNabb the help he needs to make it happen for the next 3-5 years. The only reason I'm in favor of going after a "QB of the future" this early is because the QB class is supposed to be so deep. Better to have the right guy on the bench for 3 years than it is to be grasping at straws when McNabb calls it a career.

Hopefully the QB and WR spots are as deep as advertised because I think we can set ourselves up nicely for the future at both spots.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 8:19 AM | Report abuse

Here's Adam Schein predicting we not only get VJ from SD for a 2nd round pick, but he also has us in the playoffs:

http://msn.foxsports.com/video/NFL?vid=35a6dfb7-6483-4602-ab1a-2aba7d0ae481

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 8:34 AM | Report abuse

And lastly, a quick grammatical note: I believe gaol is the olde english spelling of jail. I think you meant goal, unless you were talking about playing soccer in philly, in which case gaol, or jail, is correct.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 3:03 AM

Fair enough. And I do pretty much everything I can to avoid Philly. 16 years and running so far...

Happy 4th (or 5th as the case may be)

E

Posted by: edvar | July 5, 2010 9:16 AM | Report abuse

Is that Adam Schein's real voice or is that his 'tv voice'? By the way, does anyone really think we can get VJax for just a 2nd rounder?
Happy 5th!

Posted by: monk811 | July 5, 2010 9:54 AM | Report abuse

Monk, I don't know if that's Schein's "real" voice or not...either way, he sounds like a total d-bag.

If things in SD get contentious enough and if Seattle doesn't up the asking price, I'd imagine a 2nd rounder is possible.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 10:13 AM | Report abuse

"This is one of the reason's many on this board were so against drafting Bradford or Clausen. Notice how on this list Case Keenum is ranked 10th among senior QBs while he projected in the top 5 of this past draft..posted by TWISI"

It is a very deep draft, and when you add in the underclassmen, you have all the Types: the Athlete (Locker), the Brain (Andrew Luck of Stanford), the Arm (Ryan Mallett of Arkansas) and several Dark Horses (Ponder and Devlin, but more so Blaine Gabbert of Missouri). We could see six or seven QBs go in the first couple rounds.

But Mallett's recovering from a foot injury, Locker isn't that accurate, and Luck is pretty young. So we'll have to wait for the season to see if any of these guys emerges as #1.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse

NFL thoughts:

...how many more days till training camp?


World Cup thoughts:

Argentina did what Argentina does. Play pretty and score alot of goals early in the tourney and then crap out when it really counts. They have Maradona to thank for the blowout. Players like Javier Zanetti and Esteban Cambiasso were prescisely the kind of players Argentina needed against Germany to provide some cool steel in the defensive midfield; instead both of those guys get left off the squad despite winning a treble with Inter this year and playing out of their minds.

Germany looks like it's hitting on all cylinders, and interestingly enough it's partly because of Michael Ballack's absence. With the Germany captain out, room in the midfield has been created for young players like Muller and Ozil to shine. Between those 2 players and Schweinsteiger there's is too much going on in the midfield for an opposing team to account for. They have come up big against some big opponents (England and Argentina) and that's going to need to happen again against Spain. It should be an open game b/c the Germans play their best when they go forward, if they sit back and defend against Spain it takes them out of their game.

Uruguay has little chance moving forward to win this. They are too Forlan-dependent and have yet to play a proven soccer power that has the players to mark Forlan out of the game. But they have showed us that when you are organized and fundamentally sound at the back on defense, then you are a very tough out (lesson they learned from Italy, no doubt).

IMO, this tourney is Spain's for the taking. Torres needs to be benched, and they need to insert Fabergas or Pedro or Silva in the midfield and play Villa alone up top. Much like Germany, there is simply too much firepower in the midfield to account for. Germany and Spain are almost mirror images of each other, except I think Spain has a more proven backline and goalie, which is why I give the edge to them.

Netherlands, I fear, will continue their streak of being the most talented soccer nation never to win a WC. They beat a Brazil team that was pretty weak in the midfield compared to previous teams, and needed an own-goal to do it. Anyone familiar with Felipe Melo knows he is a grenade waiting to blow up in his own hands, and it happened on the world stage. Sneijder is an X-factor. He is playing out of his mind right now, and looks like he could pull a Baggio or Zidane and carry this team far. Lots of firepower up front and in the midfield, but I would feel better about this team if VanderSar were back between the sticks.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 10:28 AM | Report abuse

Slow time for RI

Posted by: iH8dallas | July 5, 2010 10:50 AM | Report abuse

Astute analysis, P1, though I'm not sure VanderSar makes the Kaka save, and then, as any Englishman will tell you, it might have been a different game.

Ghana should have been awarded that goal against Urucheat. Another blemish on the game, but let's hope they go the way of the French tomorrow afternoon.

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 5, 2010 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Ghana should have been awarded that goal against Urucheat. Another blemish on the game, but let's hope they go the way of the French tomorrow afternoon.

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 5, 2010 11:07 AM | Report abuse


They need to flat out change the rule. It's basically like goal-tending in b-ball.

Any shot saved on the goal line by the hand of a non-goalie needs to count as a goal straight-up and the player receives an automatic red card.

As it stands, in those end-of-game circumstances, a team has every incentive to simply line up defenders on the goal line and tell them to use their hands if they need to, and then force the other team to hit a PK.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 11:13 AM | Report abuse

it looks like no SD wide out for skins because SD is not really interested in trading him so no help at wide out

GO BOYS

Posted by: joevick2 | July 5, 2010 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Sorry joevick2, I think you found the wrong forum. NAMBLA provides a perfect opportunity for people like you to "GO BOYS". I doubt many people here agree with the lifestyle you have chosen, so please go post on the appropriate forum.

Posted by: RobInVaBeach | July 5, 2010 11:35 AM | Report abuse

League sources say Chargers not actively shopping WR Vincent Jackson nor interested in dealing him. Any trade is a real longshot.

Posted by: joevick2 | July 5, 2010 11:41 AM | Report abuse

Here's Adam Schein predicting we not only get VJ from SD for a 2nd round pick, but he also has us in the playoffs:

http://msn.foxsports.com/video/NFL?vid=35a6dfb7-6483-4602-ab1a-2aba7d0ae481

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 8:34 AM |

Having a legit #1 WR would make the Skins offense an elite unit. If not Jackson, hopefully Devin and/or Malcolm will take the mantel.

Posted by: TWISI | July 5, 2010 11:42 AM | Report abuse

If VJax is really facing a suspension, then SD probably feels like it got the upper-hand in negotiations. Wouldn't be an ideal time to trade him, necessarily.

Anyways, I'm not sold on VJax being an elite WR:

2008 - 59 rec, 1098 yards, 7 TDs
2009 - 68 rec, 1197 yards, 9 TDs

These are his 2 best seasons, and those are good numbers, but not elite by any stretch. We're not talking about Steve Smith or Calvin Johnson who throw up numbers like that despite other offensive woes. VJax benefits from playing on an all-around potent offense and has players like Gates who open up alot of things in the secondary for him.

I'd rather save my 1st or 2nd round pick and the $$ he'd demand in an extension.

McNabb has shown he can run an effective offense without a "big-time" #1 receiver.

What's the word on Kevin Curtis?

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 11:53 AM | Report abuse

@BW26
So now what's your take on the prospect of the Redskins getting VJ for a 2nd. All the teams want draft picks in preparation for next years draft when all the under classmen declare for the draft. I would like see a trade player for player but is giving up a 2nd for a player like VJ worth it to improve the WR corp immediately? Risk vs reward or just work in progress?
What’s SD saying about no intentions to trade VJ? I’d say the same thing if I wanted more compensation wouldn’t you?
If it’s a big draft year for the QB position next year will it also be a good opportunity for teams like us to pick up a QB cut from another team to back up DMac?

Posted by: krystal_ball | July 5, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

McNabb has shown he can run an effective offense without a "big-time" #1 receiver.

What's the word on Kevin Curtis?
Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 11:53 AM

I'd be the first to admit that I don't know much about VJack's game, but let me say this on his behave. Remember last year, Jackson didn't play against the Skins. Floyd did and end up torching the Skins with 140 yards on 9 receptions. Also not that Jackson had over hundred yards in reception against the #1 pass defense last year. All this from a guy who isn't the team's #1 receiving option (Gates is IMO). He's talented no doubt about it.

However, I do believe that Thomas has that potential as well so the move to VJ may not be necessary, although I think DT needs to work harder off the field. IMO Devin is rep player, he needs a bunch of practice reps to transfer what is on the board onto the field, so he'll need to keep his hammy from flaring up. The Skins need a #1 WR and will have to invest in one early in next year's draft if DT and MK fail to step up. McNabb has a small window to get to the SB, I don't think he wants to relive his past here in DC. He can't relive the past, he's not the same QB.

Posted by: TWISI | July 5, 2010 12:26 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 11:13 AM

100% agree, especially a handball inside the goal. At the same time, a penalty kick from that range is essentially a gimme.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 5, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: TWISI | July 5, 2010 12:26 PM | Report abuse

All I'm saying is that a move to get VJ will be expensive - too expensive in my book.

A 1st or 2nd rounder plus a high-end contract extension for what??

A guy who isn't even the top receiving option on his own team? A guy who hasn't even had double-digit TDs in a season? A guy who hasn't shown the kind of speed/athleticism/ability to be a big-time game-breaker a-la Larry Fitz or Calvin Johnson?

He's a nice player, but, frankly, Santana Moss has posted some comparable receiving numbers; and that on one of the league's most anemic run-first offenses with mediocre play at QB and on the Oline.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 12:33 PM | Report abuse

League sources say Chargers not actively shopping WR Vincent Jackson nor interested in dealing him. Any trade is a real longshot.

Posted by: joevick2 | July 5, 2010 11:41AM

Shur Vic Shur

Posted by: GOmellyDOTcom | July 5, 2010 12:37 PM | Report abuse

p1funk

"Anyways, I'm not sold on VJax being an elite WR"

2008 - 59 rec, 1098 yards, 7 TDs
2009 - 68 rec, 1197 yards, 9 TDs

Those are the numbers of a receiver who's increasing in production, my friend.

By all reports, VJax is a Top 5 receiver.

Having VJax means Moss moves into the slot and you create what the pats have with Moss/Welker.

Too, you left out Jackson's 17.1 yards per catch average: the second best in the league after DeSean Jackson.

That average is what makes him desirable as it means he stretches a defense if matched with a good deep ball thrower.

And Donovan McNabb is a good deep ball thrower.

Make that trade: we need a 6-5 230 pound receiver in his prime, and after Moss' contract is up, the trade will make a lot of sense.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 12:38 PM | Report abuse

I'm willing to roll with DT. I believe he's ready to make the leap, especially now that he has a QB who can get him the ball. Skins should wait until after the start of training camp to evaluate the receiving corps. Jackson isn't going anywhere in the meantime.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 5, 2010 12:43 PM | Report abuse

"GO 'BOYS"


And while on the subject of Dallas, whatever became of Patrick Crayton?

(The cowboys will feature a loaded receiving group and three solid young running backs.)

Now, he might be a better option than a trade for VJax if he's availiable.

And don't put me to sleep with all that, "NO, he's a cowboy crap," when we're happy with an ex-iggle q-back.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 12:45 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 12:38 PM | Report abuse


V. Jax has a nice ypc because of the system and the players around him.

After a defense accounts for the running game, the RB screens that SD loves to throw underneath to LT/Sproles, and Antonio Gates; VJax gets to exploit some pretty thin coverages downfield.

He's a guy I'd like to have on my team without a doubt, but the price has to be right.

Moss/Welker??? Did you really just imply that Vincent Jackson could be anything close to Randy Moss?

C'mon Moe, I think you need to go back to bed and finish sleeping off your Independence Day celebration...

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 12:33 PM

You have valid points, but let's not understate VJ's ability on the field. If you look at yards per reception, VJ was in the top 2 for each of the last two years (NFL.com top 50 WR in receptions). SO VJ is an explosive WR. Also, the question you have to ask is IF VJ is the #1 receiving option what type of numbers could he put up. A lot of the players we are comparing him to are their respective team's #1 option and therefore would have more opportunity for catches. Is VJ worth a 1st..no. Is he worth a 2nd...I'll be listening to what VJ is open to as far as a contract. One caveat, I wouldn't make a move for VJ until after training camp started. I'd give DT and MK a couple of weeks to step their game and take control of the #1 WR spot.

Posted by: TWISI | July 5, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

And while on the subject of Dallas, whatever became of Patrick Crayton?

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 12:45 PM | Report abuse


I'll tell you what became of Patrick Crayton.

Sean Taylor destroyed him on 3rd and 4, when it looked like he might catch the first down.

Patrick Crayton's life has never been the same since...poor fella..

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

100% agree, especially a handball inside the goal. At the same time, a penalty kick from that range is essentially a gimme.

Posted by: learnedhand1

You get a little noodle-legged after busting your hump up and down the field for 120 mins. I've seen a few of those late kicks graze the top of the stadium on their way to the moon.

But hey, Holland doesn't have to take on Ghana and the whole of Africa. Instead, I'm hoping it's a crowd thirsty for Suarez-less Urucheatin' blood, and all will hail a famous Dutch victory.

And then I hope there are 19 red cards in the Spain Germany match.

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 5, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

learnedhand

"I'm willing to roll with DT."


The real question about Devin Thomas or Malcolm Kelly is, is either of them capable, right now, of duplicating these numbers:

50 catches 530 yards 10.6 average

Those are Antwan Randle El's numbers from what we believe was an underperforming year for him.

Those numbers this Fall from either MK/DT would be seen as their taking the next step.

Thing is, does either guy have that in him in what might be a vastly improved offense?

I'd say, "Yes."

"Thomas does and I don't doubt it."

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 5, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Not just that, but those PKs are mental too.

Kind of like trying to kick a medium-range FG, except in the playoffs with the game on the line and tens of thousands of people screaming.

Not everyone has nerves of steel like Francesco Totti v. Australia in 2006...

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 12:58 PM | Report abuse

SMACK under no circumstances will any African in South Africa root for the Dutch.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 5, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

SMACK under no circumstances will any African in South Africa root for the Dutch.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 5, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse


That's funny...I never thought of that.

If the Dutch win their first ever World Cup in South Africa, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 1:02 PM | Report abuse

p1funk

"Did you really just imply that Vincent Jackson could be anything close to Randy Moss?"


No, I wasn't even suggesting that.

I'm talking scheme.

If you diagram football plays with a big X receiver running clearing routes (posts/digs/sluggos/post-corner) with a speedy slot receiver running option routes into the center of the field, you are effectively duplicating some of the New England Patriot passing offense.

That's what Moss/Welker does for them, and we should expect the same this Fall.

It's the same concept in Houston with A Johnson.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 1:03 PM | Report abuse

I think these reports saying SD is not actively looking to trade VJax are accurate. I also think its AJ Smith's way of a) driving up the price any team would have to pay for VJax, and b) pressuring VJax into getting his azz to camp, particularly now that he has been given 3 weeks off courtesy of Mr Goodell. VJax is at a tactically and psychologically weak point in this drama.

And AJ Smith is cheap and stubborn enough to let him sit all damn year. He is the anti- vincenzo, he won't pay anybody for anything whether it be a player already on his roster or another team who has come calling with draft picks falling out of their pockets.

Still think Redskin's best move is to hold their water and make DT11 and MK12 prove they are too f'ing lame and/or stooopid to ball for it all at #1 WR. 'Tana needs to be a flea in the slot.... he ain't a number one any more, and that generously assumes he ever really was.

I think Lil Shanny's designing and play calling will pay BIG dividends. Most understated to date is my predicted positive effect Keenan McCardell will have upon young Messrs Kelly and Thomas. Both of them have the world right in front of them... all they have to do is reach out and grab it by the stones.

Its August soon, right?

Posted by: SkinsfaninKaneohe | July 5, 2010 1:07 PM | Report abuse

League sources say Chargers not actively shopping WR Vincent Jackson nor interested in dealing him. Any trade is a real longshot.

Posted by: joevick2 | July 5, 2010 11:41AM

Shur Vic Shur

Posted by: GOmellyDOTcom | July 5, 2010 12:37 PM

`

Wrong Vicc, friendo!

Posted by: Vicc | July 5, 2010 1:08 PM | Report abuse

scampbell1975 and barack obama are two of a kind: the more things change, the more they stay the same.

i'll try to keep up with your new style from now on, scampbell1975. just let me know when you actually have one, okay, you self-deluded pervert.

Posted by: lxy32 | July 5, 2010 6:52 AM |

Hey everyone, I have a fan! All this guy has done on this blog is look for my posts to comment on. Never once has this individual done anything like contribute to an argument/conversation or made intelligent/unintelligent remarks about the Redskins. His/her only posts have come with mine quoted at the beginning. Fan or stalker? You be the judge. And oh by the way, big difference between homosexuality and self debasement. Also nothing political in that post. Once again, I say to you, I have given that sh!t up, try to keep up...

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 1:03 PM | Report abuse

But you need a receiver like A.Johnson or Moss who will draw the double/triple coverages. Teams scheme for players like that which makes it possible for Welker or Owen Daniels/Kevin Walter to work the middle.

VJax gets open deep for SD b/c alot of teams are watching the play-action, screens underneath and/or scheming for Gates.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

I've been engulfed with the World Cup lately.

Nice analysis, p1funk. Spain was my pre-cup favorite... But Germany looms. I dated a German chick for 2 and half years during my time in the service ova in Heidelberg, so I have a soft spot for Germany.

SMACK1, the "Oranjeboom" is looking strong. Heard Paris Hilton was arrested on possession of marijuana during their game against Brazil. Of course she was released later and the charges dropped. The dutch have the greatest means to wake n bake on the planet!

Whas poppin on RI?


Chek the link; one of the funniest shows ever:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izdWZfdYXno

Posted by: Vicc | July 5, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

SMACK under no circumstances will any African in South Africa root for the Dutch.

Posted by: learnedhand1

Not even a single one? I think you're projecting again.

Posted by: SMACK1 | July 5, 2010 1:18 PM | Report abuse

p1funk

"VJax gets open deep for SD b/c alot of teams are watching the play-action, screens underneath and/or scheming for Gates."

That's kinda sorta my point.

Teams shut down the skins' passing offense by jamming Moss at the line, then rolling coverage his way.

So if a big 6'5" target is wide and Moss in the slot, you change that dynamic.

Too, with Cooley at h-back and Davis 'flexed' like a wideout, you suddenly force a defense into what you say the chargers so with their scheme.

And we still have a solid running back named Portis running draw plays to keep thing honest.

So, do you cover?

That's why I say a guy like V Jackson--or some other big receiver--could be of value in the redskin offense taking shape.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

scampbell1975,

don't give up the fight. Repubs and Democrats need each other. w/o you, who else is gonna level the playing field?

`

This thread was created on July 2. Damn, RI is stagnate.

Pass on V. Jackson, D. Thomas has the ability to be elite. His size and athleticism(and popularity with the women b/c he's a light-skinned brother whose cut up and tatted up)

Lets see what our receivers look like with a QB actually throwing them the ball.

Posted by: Vicc | July 5, 2010 1:22 PM | Report abuse

4thfloor,

u ain't seen that "Mortal Kombat: Rebirth" trailer yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6jDcN7mcbw

RedDMV??

Nobody here played Mortal Kombat? a b a c a b b a = blood code (sega)

If this movie is full go, we might finally an R-rated adaption of a video game!

Posted by: Vicc | July 5, 2010 1:28 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse


Like I said Moe, I would like him on my team, but the price needs to be right.

I'm not convinced that we need to cough up a 1st/2nd rounder and big extension to get VJax and run that same scheme effectively.

If Moss can work the slot, and the TEs can work underneath, and the coverage is being drawn to the middle a-la SD, then where's the wisdom in giving up alot to get a guy who would only need to exploit so-so downfield coverage? Joey Galloway might still be able to beat one-one coverage deep, and we can have him for next to nothing.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 1:30 PM | Report abuse

scampbell1975,

don't give up the fight. Repubs and Democrats need each other. w/o you, who else is gonna level the playing field?

`

This thread was created on July 2. Damn, RI is stagnate.

Pass on V. Jackson, D. Thomas has the ability to be elite. His size and athleticism(and popularity with the women b/c he's a light-skinned brother whose cut up and tatted up)

Lets see what our receivers look like with a QB actually throwing them the ball.

Posted by: Vicc | July 5, 2010 1:22 PM |

I'm not giving up the fight my man I just took it to a more proper forum. I like most of the folks up here and the political affiliations run deep up here. Deep enough that the level of animosity that is created by political debate up here is extreme and I would just rather keep it from getting to that level. We seem to do just fine getting each other riled without it.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 1:31 PM | Report abuse

That's funny...I never thought of that.

If the Dutch win their first ever World Cup in South Africa, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Posted by: p1funk

Of course it is a good thing for the Dutch. Separate sports from politics please! Others have constantly reminded us of German atrocities too. These guys on Germanys team are in their early 20's move on already! UFB!

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 5, 2010 1:42 PM | Report abuse

...Deep enough that the level of animosity that is created by political debate up here is extreme and I would just rather keep it from getting to that level. We seem to do just fine getting each other riled without it.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 1:31 PM

`

*chuckle*

So true. Jason Campbell is another example--but notice since we've traded his ass--I haven't seen SkinsneedaGM lately.

Hail to the Redskins!

Posted by: Vicc | July 5, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Mike Shanahan has made the Redskins older

Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on July 5, 2010 1:23 PM ET
Don't call it a rebuilding project.

Redskins coach Mike Shanahan and trusty sidekick G.M. Bruce Allen built the 2010 Washington Redskins to compete now, and develop players later. That's what happens when you have one draft pick out of the top 100 selections.

CSNWashington blogger Rich Tandler notes that Shanahan took the league's oldest roster and made it even older. Using an admittedly unscientific roster projection by beat writer Ryan O'Halloran, Washington's average age should roughly climb half a year more than last season's 28-year-old average.

Out of 24 new players on the projected roster, 13 additions will be over 30 years old in Week One. The average age of projected starters climbed more than the reserves.

What does all this mean? Well, not much in the standings. Three of the four oldest teams in football last year (New Orleans, Arizona, New England) won their divisions.

But feel free to argue with anyone that says the Redskins are "building" towards the future more than any other team. The rest of the NFC East teams remain younger and posses more quality young core players.

One offseason can only change so much.

Posted by: TWISI | July 5, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Cruisin' on over to footballoutsiders.com, I notice V. Jackson ranked second in the League last season (after Sidney Rice) in both total value and value per play (these are measures that compare the player to the NFL average).

The guy was remarkably productive. I don't know how much that had to do with Philip Rivers or other aspects of San Diego's high functioning offense, and how it would translate to another situation.

Randle El ranks around 50th using the same measures. Santana Moss is in mid-60's, highlighting how poor a year he had. Of course the geeks note that the performance of WRs cannot be separated from the performance of their quarterback. Big duh.

They also tab for players with less than 50 catches. Kelly and Devin Thomas were right together, sandwiched between Josh Reed of Buffalo and Maurice Stovall of Tampa Bay. In other words, they were about average for the NFL last season.

Two WRs who had really off-years last season: Joey Galloway and Mike Furrey.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 1:56 PM | Report abuse

Separate sports from politics please! Others have constantly reminded us of German atrocities too. These guys on Germanys team are in their early 20's move on already! UFB!

Posted by: 1965skinsfan | July 5, 2010 1:42 PM | Report abuse


Separate sports from politics? Not when it comes to soccer...not happening. That's what makes the game so much more intensely passionate than your average spectator sport. Not just on the int'l level but in domestic leagues, different teams from different cities/regions are playing out the historical struggles of the people...frankly, I don't mind it all. Soccer is a much better forum for playing out those tensions than a real battlefield with real weapons.

No one is holding Germany over the fire for war atrocities in the 1940's...but apartheid is something much more recent - something that alot of folks from this living generation still remember and/or experienced firsthand...

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 2:10 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: TWISI | July 5, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

To be fair, I think you'd need to cross-check the "older players" with the length/value of their contracts.

Most of the old guys that Shanny brought in are on deals with little guaranteed $$ that are easy to get rid of.

This team needed a total overhaul, and there's nothing wrong with using decent hard-working vets as stop-gaps while you rebuild a core.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 2:14 PM | Report abuse

I'm pro VJax in a trade. He's entering the prime of his career. Like a lot of WRs, he took a few years to develop, but now he's a major threat. Plus, he's a very big target, and that will benefit McNabb a bunch.

But here's why it makes a lot of sense:

Every team need 3 good WRs, ideally, with at least 1 stud WR. The Skins currently have an aging Moss, some so-so pickups and 2 young, talented guys who are still unproven on the field. In the case of MK12, he appears to be an injury risk as well.

Where will this group be in 2010, 2011 and 2012? Lets start by assuming (a bad thing to do) that its unlikely that any drafted WR will come in and light up the place in their first year or 2 ... and ... that we're unlikely to find a talent comparable to VJax on the open market at a significant discount to what it would cost for VJax now.

Next, I'm going to put some odds down:


Over the next 3 years:
Chance that the WR will be a top 10-ish WR
VJax: 80%
Moss: 10%
DT11: 10%
MK12: 10%

Chance that the WR will be a good WR:
VJax: 10%
Moss: 60%
DT11: 50%
MK12: 50%

Chance that the WR will be a bust:
VJax: 10%
Moss: 30%
DT11: 40%
MK12: 40%

The best case scenario, without VJax, is that the Skins will have Moss play well into his early 30's (the smaller, ultra-quick WRs usually don't last as long), and either DT11 or MK12 becomes a top 10 WR -- with the other becoming a good WR. Likely? Not really. At best, a 10% chance.

VJax means that we won't need either DT11 or MK12 to be a top 10 guy (and if they are, we'll have the best WR group in the league) and we'll need only 2 of the 3 (Moss, MK12 and DT11) to play well over the next 3 years. That is a much much more likely scenario. Maybe a 70% chance.

When one guy takes the odds of having a very strong WR group from 10% to 70%, you have to seriously consider making that move.

The answer is really clear. We're MUCH better off with a top WR in the prime of his career.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 2:18 PM | Report abuse

The answer is really clear. We're MUCH better off with a top WR in the prime of his career.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 2:18 PM | Report abuse


Is there a team in the league that wouldn't be much better off with a top WR in the prime of his career?

The question with VJax is whether he really is a top WR or whether he's a pretty good WR who has found a great niche and plays his role productively in an all-around potent offense.

He's got a nice ypc average, a pretty good completion %, and a low drop rate.

But he's got one of the lowest "miss tackle" rates among comparable receivers (meaning he is not breaking or avoiding tackles after the catch) and one of the lowest yards-after-catch-per-reception rates among comparable receivers.

What does this mean?

Seems to me that he's a guy who is a solid route-runner, and knows where to find gaps in coverage on deeper patterns with good hands.

But he's not a game-breaker, not a play-maker.

Again if we are surrendering a 1st/2nd rounder AND coughing up a large contract extension, I want a playmaking game-breaker...not simply a good route-runner with hands.


Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse

I'm pro VJax in a trade. He's entering the prime of his career. Like a lot of WRs, he took a few years to develop, but now he's a major threat. Plus, he's a very big target, and that will benefit McNabb a bunch.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 2:18 PM | Report abuse

zeke, the time to snatch Vjack was two years ago... when he was relatively unknown and finding lots of room to roam free as teams paid uber attention to LT and AGates. If AJ and Norville were not thinking SB NOW, they would be smart to unlaod him to a team run by a guy like vinny, who thought they were one piece away.

Good for the Skins is that guy don't live here no more.

DT11 2010 just might be VJax 2008. We'll see.

Posted by: SkinsfaninKaneohe | July 5, 2010 2:44 PM | Report abuse

DC HOOO. J.WALL HOOO! Strausburg HOOO! Ovechkin HOOO....McScabb NOOO!

Posted by: GOmellyDOTcom | July 5, 2010 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 2:10 PM

Thank you.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 5, 2010 3:12 PM | Report abuse

What's the deal with McNabb? Is he a free agent after this season? If so, why would he choose to stay in D.C.? He could just play out this year for the Skins and then be free to go to an established contender (like the Vikings, Cardinals, Ravens if Flacco doesn't step up his game, etc...) to try to win a superbowl before its time for him to retire. Seems weird that the Skins haven't extended his contract by now.

Posted by: coparker5 | July 5, 2010 3:37 PM | Report abuse

"Over the next 3 years:
Chance that the WR will be a top 10-ish WR
VJax: 80%
Moss: 10%
DT11: 10%
MK12: 10%

Chance that the WR will be a good WR:
VJax: 10%
Moss: 60%
DT11: 50%
MK12: 50%

Chance that the WR will be a bust:
VJax: 10%
Moss: 30%
DT11: 40%
MK12: 40%
posted by zcezcest1"

LOLOL What? Tell me you didn't just make those percentages up!

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Seems weird that the Skins haven't extended his contract by now.

Posted by: coparker5 | July 5, 2010 3:37 PM


No it's not...this undrafted years has screwy rules not only with free agency, but also what you can pay guys for a contract extension. Plus, you can't change a contract within the first year of signing it and the one year mark on McNabb's contract just passed. So no worries.

Now, if we're having this discussion in March, THEN we have a problem...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 3:54 PM | Report abuse

Hello?
Hello!
No one working at the Post today?
No Redskin Insider for a couple of days now?

Posted by: RedskinRay1 | July 5, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse

My now infamous 3 team trade that I purposed seems to have some people interested. That's dream scenario but unlikely right now cuz shanny wants some dough back from doughboy.

I must say I think this trade is likely 80 percent to happen.

One thing we have learned so far about the ShanAllen regime is that if they like a guy they go get him.

We got a real GM now. Brucey probly has 15-20 combos of moves we could make. I think he will get creative to entice the chargers to send him east.

I kno you guys are gonna say, we have DT n MK and we NNEEDDD our picks! Have no fear brothers I agree on both accounts.

Reality is if we don't get Jackson, next yr we will be drafting a wr with one of our top two picks, agree??

Why not take a nfl proven wr that may not be a chanc

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

My now infamous 3 team trade that I purposed seems to have some people interested. That's dream scenario but unlikely right now cuz shanny wants some dough back from doughboy.

I must say I think this trade is likely 80 percent to happen.

One thing we have learned so far about the ShanAllen regime is that if they like a guy they go get him.

We got a real GM now. Brucey probly has 15-20 combos of moves we could make. I think he will get creative to entice the chargers to send him east.

I kno you guys are gonna say, we have DT n MK and we NNEEDDD our picks! Have no fear brothers I agree on both accounts.

Reality is if we don't get Jackson, next yr we will be drafting a wr with one of our top two picks, agree??

Why not take a nfl proven wr?? If we use a 2nd to get a young guy who knows how they will develop?? Reference point see Devin Thomas n Malcolm kelly.... both are second round selections.

I think Brucey will offer a combo of this years 2nd n a conditional performance based 3rd or 4th the following year.

Yes, that's right, we would have 4 picks, basically a first then depth players.

We also learned that the new sherrifs in town know how to be active in the draft. I would be shocked if a few more picks weren't acquired.

Next yr we use our top pick, wherever that maybe n we take one of three positions, depending on the quality of which one is available; rb/nt/lb

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 4:17 PM | Report abuse

My now infamous 3 team trade that I purposed seems to have some people interested. That's dream scenario but unlikely right now cuz shanny wants some dough back from doughboy.

I must say I think this trade is likely 80 percent to happen.

One thing we have learned so far about the ShanAllen regime is that if they like a guy they go get him.

We got a real GM now. Brucey probly has 15-20 combos of moves we could make. I think he will get creative to entice the chargers to send him east.

I kno you guys are gonna say, we have DT n MK and we NNEEDDD our picks! Have no fear brothers I agree on both accounts.

Reality is if we don't get Jackson, next yr we will be drafting a wr with one of our top two picks, agree??

Why not take a nfl proven wr?? If we use a 2nd to get a young guy who knows how they will develop?? Reference point see Devin Thomas n Malcolm kelly.... both are second round selections.

I think Brucey will offer a combo of this years 2nd n a conditional performance based 3rd or 4th the following year.

Yes, that's right, we would have 4 picks, basically a first then depth players.

We also learned that the new sherrifs in town know how to be active in the draft. I would be shocked if a few more picks weren't acquired.

Next yr we use our top pick, wherever that maybe n we take one of three positions, depending on the quality of which one is available; rb/nt/lb

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 4:18 PM | Report abuse

Wow...just saw DHall on NFL Live and it looks like he's not backing AH anymore. If AH can't even get the support of his fellow FA turd, I'm not sure he's got a single friend in the locker room...

Let's hope your trade scenario comes to pass, Brandon.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 4:27 PM | Report abuse

Wow...if we waited a year, we might have ended up with Tom Brady...from PFT:


Another example of Tom Brady's discontent with the Patriots
Posted by Mike Florio on July 5, 2010 4:05 PM ET
On the surface, neither the Patriots nor quarterback Tom Brady have given any credence to the notion that the relationship between team and player isn't as rosy as it used to be. Those in the know know that it isn't, as Mike Silver of Yahoo! Sports pointed out last month.

Brady wants a new deal, the team has invoked the uncertain status of the labor deal to justify delay, and as Albert Breer of the Boston Globe recently observed it all points to the likely use of the franchise tag on Brady come 2011, if there's a franchise tag in 2011. Or a football season.

In the interim, Brady stayed away from this year's offseason workouts at an eyebrow-raising rate.

One point of frustration, we're told, comes from the manner in which the team has used Brady's willingness to take less than top dollar in the past as a tool for leveraging others in the organization (players and non-players alike) to do the same. As we hear it, Brady never intended his decision to provide the franchise with a blueprint for squeezing his colleagues.

And so, possibly for that very reason, all indications are that Brady wants top dollar this time around -- especially since he saw Peyton Manning take top dollar with a salary cap in place, which didn't keep the Colts from contending on a regular basis.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 4:32 PM | Report abuse

By all reports, VJax is a Top 5 receiver.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 12:38 PM

Not even top 10. He took 3 years to develop and has had as many good years as DUI's. No way you trade a 1st or a 2nd and then turn around and give him Brandon Marshall type money.

Here is a list of better WRs off the top of my head..
Fitzgerald
Johnson
Wayne
Ocho Cinco
Marshall
Steve Smith (both)
Moss (both)
Greg Jennings
TJ Housh
Welker
Colston
Calvin Johnson
Roddy White
Desean Jackson
Mike Sims-Walker

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 4:41 PM | Report abuse

LOLOL What? Tell me you didn't just make those percentages up!

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 3:48 PM |

Hey it wouldn't be the first time it happened on RI and it won't be the last. Even for just the Z-bird alone.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 4:43 PM | Report abuse

"Reality is if we don't get Jackson, next yr we will be drafting a wr with one of our top two picks, agree??Why not take a nfl proven wr?? If we use a 2nd to get a young guy who knows how they will develop?? Reference point see Devin Thomas n Malcolm kelly.... both are second round selections."

We might, but next season looks from here to be the deepest WR crop in several seasons. Particularly those big, fast guys that teams seem to covet. Even deeper than the QBs. No one player seems to have emerged as the undisputed #1, but that's what the season's for, right?

Thomas and Kelly were second rounders but in a weird year when no WRs were drafted in Round 1 and I think 9 or 10 went in Round 2. When's the last time that happened? Kelly might have gone higher than Thomas except for the injury history.

Vince Jackson didn't emerge til his 4th season. Kelly and Thomas are entering their 3rd years. Jackson's 27, Kelly and Thomas are both 23.

As to whether the Shanahans can turn Devin and Malcolm into legit NFL receivers, we'll no more by the end of preseason.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 4:45 PM | Report abuse

"Not even top 10. He took 3 years to develop and has had as many good years as DUI's. No way you trade a 1st or a 2nd and then turn around and give him Brandon Marshall type money."

I don't think any WR should get the sort of $$ Marshall got unless the GM is convinced he's the missing ingredient in a title run, the way Owens was in Philly. I just don't think Miami is that close.

As far as productivity, though, the numbers suggest V. Jackson was a lot more productive than Marshall was last season. Whether that was Philip Rivers more than Vince, there's no way to know for sure.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse

On that WR list, Jackson should have been in the top ten, and so should Sidney Rice of Minnesota. They actually had better years than most of the guys on the list.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 4:53 PM | Report abuse

diesel44

"No way you trade a 1st or a 2nd and then turn around and give him Brandon Marshall type money."


No one here is suggesting a trade of picks.

I'm in "Let's Swap Headaches." mode.

VJax for AH.

Otherwise, I'm not for the move.

But for all the folks aping to not give up a second round pick in order to draft a receiver in that round next year, please remember we did that already.

In 2008.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 4:55 PM | Report abuse

Samson

"On that WR list, Jackson should have been in the top ten, and so should Sidney Rice of Minnesota. They actually had better years than most of the guys on the list."

You got that right.

I worry when guys start a post with, "I don't know much about this guy, but he's not as good as...."

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 4:59 PM | Report abuse

Whether that was Philip Rivers more than Vince, there's no way to know for sure.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 4:49 PM |

Plus you got to factor in Tonio Gates who often drew a lot of attention which left Jack with plenty of room to manuever.

Gates had 109 targets in '09 compared to 99 for Vincent Jackson. If you're taking odds on which tight end will lead the league in touchdowns this season, Gates should be the favorite.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 5:03 PM | Report abuse

As far as productivity, though, the numbers suggest V. Jackson was a lot more productive than Marshall was last season. Whether that was Philip Rivers more than Vince, there's no way to know for sure.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 4:49 PM

Add Sidney to the list. Completely forgot about the former Gamecock, who was another guy that took a few years to develop.

V Jack has had two good years with an all-pro QB, TE, and until last year an all-world RB. Brandon Marshall has had over 100 catches the last 3 yrs and did so last year w/ Kyle Orton. BM has more catches in the last two years than VJ has in his career (5 yrs).

I'd trade a 2012 3rd for him and that's all I would give for a guy that is another DUI from a year long suspension.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 5:12 PM | Report abuse

As to whether the Shanahans can turn Devin and Malcolm into legit NFL receivers, we'll no more by the end of preseason.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 4:45 PM |

Nice pun. Most are willing to give these duds a little more time but aren't too confident that they will turn into what the Skins need at WR. It wouldn't surprise me if one or both of them is cut (or traded) by the end of preseason. Shanahan doesn't strike me as being the patient type.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 5:15 PM | Report abuse

I worry when guys start a post with, "I don't know much about this guy, but he's not as good as...."

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 4:59 PM

Not sure who's or what post you are referring to but I would never claim to not know much about anything..

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 5:19 PM | Report abuse

We might, but next season looks from here to be the deepest WR crop in several seasons. Particularly those big, fast guys that teams seem to covet. Even deeper than the QBs. No one player seems to have emerged as the undisputed #1, but that's what the season's for, right?

Thomas and Kelly were second rounders but in a weird year when no WRs were drafted in Round 1 and I think 9 or 10 went in Round 2. When's the last time that happened? Kelly might have gone higher than Thomas except for the injury history.

Vince Jackson didn't emerge til his 4th season. Kelly and Thomas are entering their 3rd years. Jackson's 27, Kelly and Thomas are both 23.

As to whether the Shanahans can turn Devin and Malcolm into legit NFL receivers, we'll no more by the end of preseason.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 4:45 PM | Report abuse
Cosign. Let's put pressure on DT and MK, and see how they can develop, before we go trading away our dwindling draft picks.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 5, 2010 5:22 PM | Report abuse

Wow...just saw DHall on NFL Live and it looks like he's not backing AH anymore. If AH can't even get the support of his fellow FA turd, I'm not sure he's got a single friend in the locker room...

Let's hope your trade scenario comes to pass, Brandon.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 5, 2010 4:27 PM | Report abuse


DHall realized that he basically alienated all of his teammates when he blurted out the whole "I totally understand where AH is coming from" schpiel.

If he wants any credibility in that lockerroom, he better start backpedaling and fast.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 5:27 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 5:19 PM |

See

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 3:48 PM |

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 5:34 PM | Report abuse

If he wants any credibility in that lockerroom, he better start backpedaling and fast.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 5:27 PM |

He will. He's an all pro DB. Back pedaling is what they do .

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 5:36 PM | Report abuse

As far as productivity, though, the numbers suggest V. Jackson was a lot more productive than Marshall was last season. Whether that was Philip Rivers more than Vince, there's no way to know for sure.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 4:49 PM

??

In what universe do the numbers suggest that V.Jackson has EVER been more productive than B.Marshall?

Since 2006:

VJax - 195 rec, 3341 yards, 25 TDs

B.Marshall - 327 rec, 4019 yards, 25 TDs


Last year Marshall had 30+ more catches than VJax, more TDs, and only about 50 fewer receiving yards. Marshall more than doubled VJax's YAC, and is a far more lethal play-maker/game-breaker than Vincent Jackson.

Marshall had Kyle Orton throwing the ball to him and no one else on offense to step up.

Vincent Jackson plays with a perennial ProBowl QB and TE, and a backfield than has boasted one of the most productive RBs of all time.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 5:39 PM | Report abuse

2011 WR prospects
A.J Green, UGA
Julio Jones, Bama
Jonathon Baldwin, Pitt
Michael Floyd, N.D
Ryan Broyles, Boomer Sooner
Terrance Toliver, LSU

To name a few that have 1st RD potential.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 5:41 PM | Report abuse

Vincent Jackson plays with a perennial ProBowl QB and TE, and a backfield than has boasted one of the most productive RBs of all time.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 5:39 PM |

Did you know that in 2009 Tonio Gates, a TE, had an average yards per catch of 14.6. Compare that with the same stat for Randy Moss, a pretty pretty pretty fair WR himself which was 15.2.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 5:44 PM | Report abuse

LOLOL ...

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 3:48 PM |

Lolol (Mapudungun: "land of crabs and holes") is a Chilean commune and town in Colchagua Province, ...

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 5:54 PM | Report abuse

"In what universe do the numbers suggest that V.Jackson has EVER been more productive than B.Marshall? posted by pfunk"

In the universe I cited in the earlier post, which are the adjusted figures at footballoutsiders.com. Here's the link:

"http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

I do agree Marshall has been better running with the ball after the catch.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 5:56 PM | Report abuse

"Lolol (Mapudungun: "land of crabs and holes") is a Chilean commune and town in Colchagua Province, ...Posted by: SnakerJake"

Maybe that's where those percentages came from...

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 6:00 PM | Report abuse

2011 WR prospects
A.J Green, UGA
Julio Jones, Bama
Jonathon Baldwin, Pitt
Michael Floyd, N.D
Ryan Broyles, Boomer Sooner
Terrance Toliver, LSU

To name a few that have 1st RD potential.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 5:41 PM | Report abuse

C'mon Diesel, you know this fan base is too scared to draft a skilled position player in the 1st round...

Watch...you'll get thousands of posts on why you should draft a WR in the 1st round. They'll say we can get one in the later rounds and point to Marques Colston as an example.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 5, 2010 6:06 PM | Report abuse

LOLOL What? Tell me you didn't just make those percentages up!

Posted by: Samson151

of coursing I made those up. But doesn't mean I'm wrong. If you got better, show 'em

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 6:19 PM | Report abuse

Here is a list of better WRs off the top of my head..
Fitzgerald yes
Johnson yes
Wayne yes
Ocho Cinco No
Marshall Yes
Steve Smith (both) Niether
Moss (both) just Randy
Greg Jennings close call
TJ Housh No
Welker Yes
Colston Yes
Calvin Johnson Yes
Roddy White Yes
Desean Jackson No
Mike Sims-Walker No

Posted by: Diesel44

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 6:22 PM | Report abuse

Z, Ocho Cinco and Steve Smith (Carolina) aren't better than Jackson but Welker is? It's not really fair to compare all of these receivers (if you're basing it on numbers alone) because all receivers don't do (and aren't asked to do) the same thing. If these players were thrown in a hopper to be drafted, I doubt Welker would be selected ahead of Steve Smith (discounting their respective injuries) or DeSean Jackson.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 5, 2010 6:35 PM | Report abuse

Top 20 wide receivers (Fantasy Rankings)
Player EA Sports Ellenport Engel Fabiano Rank Average

Andre Johnson 1 2 1 1 1 1
Calvin Johnson 8 1 4 5 3 2
Randy Moss 9 5 2 3 5 3
Larry Fitzgerald 12 3 5 2 4 4
Miles Austin 5 10 10 6 2 5
Reggie Wayne 16 7 3 4 6 6
Roddy White 2 13 9 7 7 7
Sidney Rice 3 9 6 10 11 8
Brandon Marshall 7 4 13 9 8 9
DeSean Jackson 6 8 12 8 9 10
Marques Colston 13 11 7 11 12 11
Greg Jennings 4 14 8 12 10 12
Steve Smith (NYG) 18 18 14 13 13 13
Steve Smith (CAR) 20 15 15 15 16 14
Vincent Jackson 10 6 16 19 xx 15
Anquan Boldin 15 16 11 14 xx 16
Chad Ochocinco xx 12 17 16 17 17
Dwayne Bowe xx 19 20 18 18 18
Michael Crabtree xx 17 xx 17 14 19
Percy Harvin 11 xx xx xx 19 20

This was before the Suspension was announced. Obviously fantasy numbers can be skewed but you would have to be insane to put VJ inside of the top 10.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse

In the universe I cited in the earlier post, which are the adjusted figures at footballoutsiders.com. Here's the link:

"http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

I do agree Marshall has been better running with the ball after the catch.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 5:56 PM | Report abuse


I see.

So this is the same universe where Austin Collie, Mike Wallace, Jericho Cotchery, Kevin Walter, Derrick Mason and Malcolm Floyd are also more "valuable" wide receivers than Brandon Marshall.

Football Outsiders...perfect name for these bean-counters and their "innovative" stat-keeping.

Too bad the Dolphins didn't consult these geniuses...they probably could have gotten the "more valuable" Malcolm Floyd for a fraction of what they gave up for Marshall.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse

They'll say we can get one in the later rounds and point to Marques Colston as an example.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 5, 2010 6:06 PM |

Better yet don't even waste a draft pick, high or low. The Cows have done quite well with Romo and Austin, thank you. Of course they also had to go and get too close to the pooch and had over a 1st rounder for Roy Will.i.am.not.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 6:46 PM | Report abuse

hand over a 1st rounder for Roy Will.i.am.not.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 6:46 PM |

And a 3rd and a 6th and even a 7th from the following year. Phew! Thats an entire draft board for the Skins!

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 6:51 PM | Report abuse

I may be in the minority, but I am not convinced Devin Thomas is a bust. Antwaan Randle-El, in my opinion, took snaps from our young receivers. Thomas came on a bit last year. He was gritty, hungry and has big play ability. He may not be a "that guy", but who could have excelled in any position over the last two years. I'm curious to see what he'll do in Shanahan's system.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 5, 2010 6:53 PM | Report abuse

Fritzy n samson

I agree with you guys that we need to pressure DT n MK

What more pressure could be applied other than getting someone for the position they are supposed to play??

If we VJ it will allow DT to develope as the number 2, Moss run the slot n VJ to stretch the field deep. Opening up the passing underneath for Cooooley n FDavis.

VJ lining up outside is gonna open up oppurtunites for others.

I want our picks as much as the next guy but I also want results, which DT n MK I feel are gonna struggle to do that.

I asked the question before and got no answer ill ask again...

When was the last time we had a reciever who grabbed 9 tds??

Does our offense look potent enough to have mcnabb put up 25+ tds??

I think it'll be close and I think we will have a good year but there's no doubt Jackson will be an UPGRADE, aren't those what drafts picks are for anyway, UPGRADES????

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 6:54 PM | Report abuse

And a 3rd and a 6th and even a 7th from the following year. Phew! Thats an entire draft board for the Skins!

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 6:51 PM

Feel free to add 2010's 1st as well considering that if RW wasn't the WR version of that joker they had at safety then they wouldn't have had to draft Dez Bryant.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 6:56 PM | Report abuse

I may be in the minority, but I am not convinced Devin Thomas is a bust.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 5, 2010 6:53 PM | Report abuse


I don;t think there lots of folks out there saying DT is a bust...Malcolm Kelly is a different story.

DT has shown he has the capacity to make plays in the NFL.

The problem with Thomas is that he is, by all accounts, a pretty slow learner. I'm not sure the coaches feel like waiting another year-and-a-half before he learns the new playbook and has his next 100 yard game.

I know I don't...

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 6:59 PM | Report abuse

Football Outsiders...perfect name for these bean-counters and their "innovative" stat-keeping.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 6:43 PM |

Their stats are good for debunking half-baked notions that somehow have acquired a patina of verismilitude. Like the idea that Brad Johnson was a good QB. You look him up on their website and you see the journeymen they list as having careers of "similar quality" to him. Jim Harbaugh for Crissakes.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 7:00 PM | Report abuse

LOLOL What? Tell me you didn't just make those percentages up!

Posted by: Samson151

of coursing I made those up. But doesn't mean I'm wrong. If you got better, show 'em

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 6:19 PM | Report abuse

You know what they say about statistics of the future. About the only ones that matter are death and taxes. All others are forecasts. But it is fun to consider what they might be.

LOLOL!OL

Posted by: frediefritz | July 5, 2010 7:02 PM | Report abuse

The question with VJax is whether he really is a top WR or whether he's a pretty good WR who has found a great niche and plays his role productively in an all-around potent offense.

He's got a nice ypc average, a pretty good completion %, and a low drop rate.

But he's got one of the lowest "miss tackle" rates among comparable receivers (meaning he is not breaking or avoiding tackles after the catch) and one of the lowest yards-after-catch-per-reception rates among comparable receivers.

What does this mean?

Seems to me that he's a guy who is a solid route-runner, and knows where to find gaps in coverage on deeper patterns with good hands.

But he's not a game-breaker, not a play-maker.

Again if we are surrendering a 1st/2nd rounder AND coughing up a large contract extension, I want a playmaking game-breaker...not simply a good route-runner with hands.


Posted by: p1funk

I'm good with the WR you describe, as long as he's very good in that role. Possession WRs are undervalued. To me, if you do the little things right, the big plays tend to take care of themselves. Guys like Marques Colston are pure gold. As was Art Monk.

Give me that WR that can consistently make the first down, catch TDs and get deep when needed. Cause those guys win games

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 7:04 PM | Report abuse

The problem with Thomas is that he is, by all accounts, a pretty slow learner.

Posted by: p1funk | July 5, 2010 6:59 PM |

What was his Wonderlic score? Teams should put more weight behind testing like this when they make draft decisions.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 7:09 PM | Report abuse

"So this is the same universe where Austin Collie, Mike Wallace, Jericho Cotchery, Kevin Walter, Derrick Mason and Malcolm Floyd are also more "valuable" wide receivers than Brandon Marshall.posted by p1funk"

Well, I believe I used the term 'productive'. Not 'valuable'. Productive is a term usually measured by numbers. Valuable is usually subjective.

Couple things about Brandon Marshall last season: first, his yards per catch went down for the fourth season in a row. From 15.5 in his first year, when he was a reserve who caught 20 balls, to a shade over 11 yards when he was Denver's main receiving threat. Number of catches has gone up, of course. Second, although his total catches have increased, he's not converting a whole lot of them to TDs. Last year he had 10TDs in 101 receptions, or 1 in 10.

By comparison, Vince Jackson doesn't catch nearly as many balls but his yards per catch is high and has remained that way through his short career. He caught 9TDs in 68 receptions, last year, or 1 every 7.6.

This usually suggests the two receivers are being used differently -- Jackson as a downfield threat, Marshall more underneath and also in the red zone.

Given those differences, the numbers do suggest that Jackson was in fact more productive than Marshall last season. Which is what I said.

Of course Denver didn't have Philip Rivers and Antonio Gates, and that certainly affected things.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 7:11 PM | Report abuse

I may be in the minority, but I am not convinced Devin Thomas is a bust. Antwaan Randle-El, in my opinion, took snaps from our young receivers. Thomas came on a bit last year. He was gritty, hungry and has big play ability. He may not be a "that guy", but who could have excelled in any position over the last two years. I'm curious to see what he'll do in Shanahan's system.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 5, 2010 6:53 PM | Report abuse

Agree, rr. With an improved OL and QB, and a better offensive diesign by MS and KS, let's see what DT can do on a full-time basis.

To brandon in CA, I know it is tempting to trade for VJ. And let's just for a moment assume we could get him for a contract more in line with his talents, say $25-30 mill over 5 years. With all that money, what is going to keep VJ from getting that 3rd DUI, and be suspended for a whole season? Too much risk.

Let's learn from the mistakes Cerrato used to make, of trading away all our draft picks. Let's use our own draft picks, and build the team from the ground floor.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 5, 2010 7:14 PM | Report abuse

"of coursing I made those up. But doesn't mean I'm wrong. If you got better, show 'em
Posted by: zcezcest1"

Well, if we're just making things up, can I just pull'em out of my posterior?

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 7:14 PM | Report abuse

of coursing I made those up. But doesn't mean I'm wrong. If you got better, show 'em

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 6:19 PM |

I wouldn't hurt to put a disclaimer to that effect in your post.

Posted by: SnakerJake | July 5, 2010 7:15 PM | Report abuse

This was before the Suspension was announced. Obviously fantasy numbers can be skewed but you would have to be insane to put VJ inside of the top 10.

Posted by: Diesel44

I use the phrase top 10-ish. There are a handful of WRs that are clearly better than VJax. Fitz, AJohnson, RMoss, etc.

He's played the last 2 seasons at a high level and isn't injury prone. Whether he's in anyone's top ten isn't the issue. The issue is that he's a legit #1 WR, among the best, entering the prime of his career.

He makes our WR group, filled with risk, much much better.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 7:21 PM | Report abuse

Let's learn from the mistakes Cerrato used to make, of trading away all our draft picks. Let's use our own draft picks, and build the team from the ground floor.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 5, 2010 7:14 PM | Report abuse

I agree freddie...

BUT I am not for pplaying it conservative because we've been burned in the past. I sense that fans forbid any draft picks for a QB, WR, or RB in the first two rounds. We have not DRAFTED a difference maker at those three positions since Stephen Davis, Joe Theismann, or Gary Clark.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 5, 2010 7:29 PM | Report abuse

He makes our WR group, filled with risk, much much better.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 7:21 PM

I'm pretty sure that no one would disagree with that. However we ignored the red flags last year with AH and we should only proceed with any potential trade if AJ Smith and VJ sober up. A 2012 3rd or 4th and a deal in the 5 yr and 25-30 mil range. That should be market value for a 5 yr pro with 2 yrs of good production with serious red flags.

No way we should trade a 1st or 2nd and then pay a guy a fat contract when he is the definition of a risk.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 7:38 PM | Report abuse

BUT I am not for pplaying it conservative because we've been burned in the past. I sense that fans forbid any draft picks for a QB, WR, or RB in the first two rounds. We have not DRAFTED a difference maker at those three positions since Stephen Davis, Joe Theismann, or Gary Clark.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 5, 2010 7:29 PM | Report abuse

I don't think I'm too concerned about us not drafting skill positions in 1st or 2nd rd. I am very impressed with BA and MS, and think they will do a good job of selecting whomever they feel will help us the most. The fans can't "forbid" something they do not control. BA/MS are clearly in control. I've been waiting for 10 years to see this, and I'm happy to sit back and watch what they do. They haven't made a move I haven't liked, and that is refreshing.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 5, 2010 7:44 PM | Report abuse

I'm pretty sure that no one would disagree with that. However we ignored the red flags last year with AH and we should only proceed with any potential trade if AJ Smith and VJ sober up. A 2012 3rd or 4th and a deal in the 5 yr and 25-30 mil range. That should be market value for a 5 yr pro with 2 yrs of good production with serious red flags.

No way we should trade a 1st or 2nd and then pay a guy a fat contract when he is the definition of a risk.


Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 7:38 PM | Report abuse

Bingo, diesel. I'm with you.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 5, 2010 7:46 PM | Report abuse

Freddy, we need a player and bad. The greatness of the trades of mcnabb n jamal brown won't shine like were all wet dreaming of them doing, without a big target.

I've read all the posts on how good mcnabb makes his recievers look.

I agree with that.

How great did mcnabb to TO look?? They were great. Super bowl contender great.

I'm not sayin we should get TO everyone relax!!

I'm saying with mcnabb making no name wide out look great imagine what he could do with a great wideout???

Id pay a second round pick

All of this is dependent on jackson realizing his demands needs to be diminished slightly.

If that happens there's no way he's not in burgundy n gold!

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 7:48 PM | Report abuse

Freddy, we need a player and bad. The greatness of the trades of mcnabb n jamal brown won't shine like were all wet dreaming of them doing, without a big target.

I've read all the posts on how good mcnabb makes his recievers look.

I agree with that.

How great did mcnabb to TO look?? They were great. Super bowl contender great.

I'm not sayin we should get TO everyone relax!!

I'm saying with mcnabb making no name wide out look great imagine what he could do with a great wideout???

Id pay a second round pick

All of this is dependent on jackson realizing his demands needs to be diminished slightly.

If that happens there's no way he's not in burgundy n gold!

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 7:49 PM | Report abuse

Fritzy n samson

I agree with you guys that we need to pressure DT n MK

What more pressure could be applied other than getting someone for the position they are supposed to play??

If we VJ it will allow DT to develope as the number 2, Moss run the slot n VJ to stretch the field deep. Opening up the passing underneath for Cooooley n FDavis.

VJ lining up outside is gonna open up oppurtunites for others.

I want our picks as much as the next guy but I also want results, which DT n MK I feel are gonna struggle to do that.

I asked the question before and got no answer ill ask again...

When was the last time we had a reciever who grabbed 9 tds??

Does our offense look potent enough to have mcnabb put up 25+ tds??

I think it'll be close and I think we will have a good year but there's no doubt Jackson will be an UPGRADE, aren't those what drafts picks are for anyway, UPGRADES????

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 8:00 PM | Report abuse

Fritzy n samson

I agree with you guys that we need to pressure DT n MK

What more pressure could be applied other than getting someone for the position they are supposed to play??

If we VJ it will allow DT to develope as the number 2, Moss run the slot n VJ to stretch the field deep. Opening up the passing underneath for Cooooley n FDavis.

VJ lining up outside is gonna open up oppurtunites for others.

I want our picks as much as the next guy but I also want results, which DT n MK I feel are gonna struggle to do that.

I asked the question before and got no answer ill ask again...

When was the last time we had a reciever who grabbed 9 tds??

Does our offense look potent enough to have mcnabb put up 25+ tds??

I think it'll be close and I think we will have a good year but there's no doubt Jackson will be an UPGRADE, aren't those what drafts picks are for anyway, UPGRADES????

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 8:01 PM | Report abuse

I wouldn't hurt to put a disclaimer to that effect in your post.

Posted by: SnakerJake

disclaimers on a blog comment? Now that's funny!!!

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 8:03 PM | Report abuse

Survey question:

Measured over the next 5 years (which would be about the length of any contract with a trade), will VJax be one of the top 10 WRs in football?


My vote: yes

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 8:26 PM | Report abuse

Survey question:
Measured over the next 5 years (which would be about the length of any contract with a trade), will VJax be one of the top 10 WRs in football?

My vote: yes

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 8:26 PM

Hard to say. What if VJ gets his contract and bellies up to the bar and pulls a Barney Gumble.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 8:31 PM | Report abuse

I say top 5

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 8:42 PM | Report abuse

"Survey question:
Measured over the next 5 years (which would be about the length of any contract with a trade), will VJax be one of the top 10 WRs in football?"

A good question. Not that I have any idea how to predict that. Especially if he changes teams. Suppose he goes to Washington -- how do we anticipate how successful the Skins' offense will be, given the new QB? Or suppose he lands in Chicago (they say they don't want him) and has Cutler to throw to him?

I guess the best we could do is to look at comparable receivers (once we decide who those are) and their respective career arcs. And take a guess based on that.

But I for one have no idea how accurate that would be.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 8:45 PM | Report abuse

Measured over the next 5 years (which would be about the length of any contract with a trade), will VJax be one of the top 10 WRs in football?

Well, the top two will be whoever Jason Campbell is throwing to, now that he has an extra 3 hours to decide when to throw.

Posted by: daggar | July 5, 2010 8:54 PM | Report abuse

Is anyone at the Post still working?

Posted by: mohammed10 | July 5, 2010 9:06 PM | Report abuse

Hey everyone, I have a fan! All this guy has done on this blog is look for my posts to comment on. Never once has this individual done anything like contribute to an argument/conversation or made intelligent/unintelligent remarks about the Redskins. His/her only posts have come with mine quoted at the beginning. Fan or stalker? You be the judge. And oh by the way, big difference between homosexuality and self debasement. Also nothing political in that post. Once again, I say to you, I have given that sh!t up, try to keep up...

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 1:12 PM |

What I said was that you're a self-deluded pervert, and you just proved my point. You're self-deluded if you think I'm a "fan" or a "stalker." You're self deluded if you think you've changed. And you're perverted if you can see a difference between your earlier filth that you were hurling at everyone and the trash that you posted up here yesterday.

Your style might be understandable if you were an immature Landon student, but you're not. You're a grown man with a family, picking fights and posting filth on a Redskins blog like you're 15 years old. You're whack-o.

Posted by: lxy32 | July 5, 2010 9:11 PM | Report abuse

"I say Top 5 (about V Jax)"


I say when the chance to get what you ain't got comes, you go get it.

And we ain't got no dependable 6'5" 230 pound receiver who can stretch the field.

Why wait to draft a guy next year when you can get a proven vet this year?

If our drafted '08 receivers do well this year with Jackson in the fold, we'll be that much further ahead.

Moss leaves at the end of the season, and next year we put an overall bigger, faster group on the field.

To me, this all makes too much sense.

Pull dat trigga: make V Jax a redskin!

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 9:11 PM | Report abuse

"Knicks Reach a Deal With Stoudemire"

The guy's an idiot, albeit a very rich one indeed.

The New York Knicks are the joke of pro sports and continue to prove that big market and big money don't necessarily mean big times.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 5, 2010 9:30 PM | Report abuse

Hey Guys, sorry to chiome in so late but yippee. just got back from vacations, errrr, I mean this really sucks I just got back from vacation. JG always says the right thing which is a really big part of why he was the best coach most of us will ever experience. LC was an excellent coach and imparted a lot of that quality on JG. I guess what I'm trying to say is blah, blah, blah. Can't wait to get back to Hatteras, gotta "work" Tues, Wednes, and Thurs. Then it's back down to Frisco. The Pompano are running really big this year. Check ya tomorrow from "work".

Posted by: wireman65 | July 5, 2010 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Survey question:

Measured over the next 5 years (which would be about the length of any contract with a trade), will VJax be one of the top 10 WRs in football?
Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 5, 2010 8:26 PM | Report abuse

Don't know the answer to that one.

But I do think he's a hell of a lot more likely to do it than either DT11 or MK12. And I'm hoping they do really excel, but they have to show some consistency. And they have to produce something useful when it matters.

So for me it comes down to price:

-we give up a player or 2 and no draft picks BUT he still wants BM money...That equates to less players we'll be able to sign in the future for 2 reasons: 1. salary cap 2. I don't think AH $32 million blow-up is going to make Snyder LESS frugal.

-we give up draft pick/picks and he wants the big money...Well then see above 1&2, and we don't get to draft or trade picks for any of the half dozen or so other needs that are going to become real pressing real soon.

Honest, even if he is a top 10 receiver in the next 5 years, I don't think it's worth it. Not when having 2 of the top 32 receivers or 3 of the top 50 would suit me just fine.

If DT or MK could be one of the top 20 receivers, and the other in the top 50, would you take it? Let's say each team keeps 4 on the final 53, that's out of 128...

No? What if both your TEs rank in the top 10 in the NFL in receiving yards and/or TD's?

Posted by: RomoLongballs | July 5, 2010 9:53 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: wireman65 | July 5, 2010 9:36 PM

Hatteras kicks ass, really miss that part of the east coast... usually find a place in Avon, but we've skipped the annual trip for Oregon coast instead this year. enjoy and HTTR!!!

Posted by: moodlymoodlymoo | July 5, 2010 10:09 PM | Report abuse

Can we please get a new Skins article? I haven't heard about Haynesworth for days!

Posted by: egoodman8 | July 5, 2010 10:18 PM | Report abuse

I agree Moe!!

The draft can be very hit or miss, especially at the skills positons.

Brucey will play it smart.

He knows Moss better days are past him and next year Moss is gonna be looking for work.

A top flight wide out for the next few years to come

WE NEED THIS MAN!!

Next yr our WR will be Jackson, Thomas, Kelly (if not traded) n Austin.

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 11:15 PM | Report abuse

I agree Moe!!

The draft can be very hit or miss, especially at the skills positons.

Brucey will play it smart.

He knows Moss better days are past him and next year Moss is gonna be looking for work.

A top flight wide out for the next few years to come

WE NEED THIS MAN!!

Next yr our WR will be Jackson, Thomas, Kelly (if not traded) n Austin.

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 11:16 PM | Report abuse

Man I love how man i people can twist any stat....

All the people against VJ here are saying " man the only reason he was good is cus he had light coverage cuz LT and Gates"

I could take that and tell all the HATERS ya he had a good year, imagine if he was the number one passing option, not the third......

Then maybe the haters would realize that 9tds n 1000yrds for a 3rd option is dayyyym good. And he would get a lot more here as DMacs primary target

How would the HATERS rebuttle?????

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 11:26 PM | Report abuse

The question isn't whether VJ would make the team better...the question is what would you trade for a guy with as many DUIs as years of production and then what would you turn around and pay him?

AJ Smith is looking for 2 2nds or a 1st and VJ wants a contract around 5 yrs and 50 mil.

AH isn't part of the equation.. Most people on this blog are better than saying we need him and he'll make the team better and then fail to give any details on what you would exchange for his services.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 11:30 PM | Report abuse

I would give our 2nd this yr and a performance based second pick. 2nd to 4th. Depending on how many tds he has, yrds and games won.

I wouldn't sign him to 5 yrs 50 mil, maybe 5 yrs n 40-45 mil.

We all saw how creative BA n MS get with these trades.

We landed 2 starters by swapping picks.

They'll make an attractive offer for him.

Ya the guy has 2 DUIs, so maybe some type of contract stipulation invloving substance abuse policy.

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 5, 2010 11:38 PM | Report abuse

Hey everyone, I have a fan! All this guy has done on this blog is look for my posts to comment on. Never once has this individual done anything like contribute to an argument/conversation or made intelligent/unintelligent remarks about the Redskins. His/her only posts have come with mine quoted at the beginning. Fan or stalker? You be the judge. And oh by the way, big difference between homosexuality and self debasement. Also nothing political in that post. Once again, I say to you, I have given that sh!t up, try to keep up...

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 1:12 PM |

What I said was that you're a self-deluded pervert, and you just proved my point. You're self-deluded if you think I'm a "fan" or a "stalker." You're self deluded if you think you've changed. And you're perverted if you can see a difference between your earlier filth that you were hurling at everyone and the trash that you posted up here yesterday.

Your style might be understandable if you were an immature Landon student, but you're not. You're a grown man with a family, picking fights and posting filth on a Redskins blog like you're 15 years old. You're whack-o.

Posted by: lxy32 | July 5, 2010 9:11 PM | Re

See what I mean? Just can't keep me off his/her mind. Definitely livin' rent free in someone's head. Oh, and in case you can't read, I didn't pick that fight. Frak did, as usual. I just responded. But if you don't like what I have to say feel free to scroll on past just like everyone else it wasn't directed at. I don't think we need you tryin' to regulate our little tiffs anyways. You obviously have a thing for me cuz I'm sure not the only one up here pullin' that sh!t but I'm the only one you ever respond to. So like I said, thanks for your patronage and I'll be sure to post something new for you, my #1 fan, again real soon. Next time try to contribute something somewhere and maybe you'll get over the fact that I dogged your mother/sister/wife at some point in the past and you have a grudge. Oh, by the way, she loved it...ball gag, stirrups, saddle and all.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 11:46 PM | Report abuse

brandon

A 2nd plus anything is too much. We upgraded our QB and RT/LT position with a 2nd and then a future 3rd and 4th. We received a 6x pro bowler at QB and a 2x pro bowler at T and you want to exchange almost a similar deal for a dude with serious red flags and 2 yrs of production?

I'd take him but at a deal for a guy very similar to him (Santonio Holmes) a 2012 3rd. I'd then give him a very incentive laden contract.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 11:52 PM | Report abuse

brandon

A 2nd plus anything is too much. We upgraded our QB and RT/LT position with a 2nd and then a future 3rd and 4th. We received a 6x pro bowler at QB and a 2x pro bowler at T and you want to exchange almost a similar deal for a dude with serious red flags and 2 yrs of production?

I'd take him but at a deal for a guy very similar to him (Santonio Holmes) a 2012 3rd. I'd then give him a very incentive laden contract.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 5, 2010 11:52 PM |

I've got to agree with Diesel on this one. We've been giving up too many draft picks for too long and look where it's gotten us. Can't give away multiple picks for a red flag type of guy. Can't give him a huge front loaded contract either because he could pull an AH. Therefore I don't believe, at least for what I would do, that he will be here. He wants too much and we are too old to keep selling out the future.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 5, 2010 11:57 PM | Report abuse

awwww geez brother scamp man

represent for the baby.

you're a pops now... remember?

take it easy...


Posted by: Chia_Pet | July 6, 2010 12:02 AM | Report abuse

scamp-

lyx32 is on their 4th or 5th handle. This blogger wants to give the impression that they are very in tuned to the blog but I/you/anyone has never heard anything constructive they had had to say.

ITA my friend/d-bag

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 6, 2010 12:02 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for the heads up D44.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 6, 2010 12:04 AM | Report abuse

awwww geez brother scamp man

represent for the baby.

you're a pops now... remember?

take it easy...

Posted by: Chia_Pet | July 6, 2010 12:02 AM

It's funny because I've been real low key since the move but that moron frak keeps it going and then this tool rolls around stickin' his nose into places it's got no business being so I got off track for a minute. No biggie though, I put frak on the ITA list and this tool belt is next. SkinshaveaGM/perineum tries it too. It's amusing that I've had such a profound affect on at least 3 people that they can't post on the blog without bringing me up. Rent free baby.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 6, 2010 12:10 AM | Report abuse

where are you living these days then?

Posted by: Chia_Pet | July 6, 2010 12:13 AM | Report abuse

Orange County, CA

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 6, 2010 12:16 AM | Report abuse

nice...

HTTR and HTTB

peace in and peace out to all you hamsters.

Posted by: Chia_Pet | July 6, 2010 12:20 AM | Report abuse

Id rather have a red flag guy putting up TDs than an HGH guy not putting up TDS.......

Agree on that we would have to give up a lot to get him, now let me ask you guys this, if he sits till week 10 n then becomes a UFA next yr, would you sign him???

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 12:28 AM | Report abuse

Id rather have a red flag guy putting up TDs than an HGH guy not putting up TDS.......

Agree on that we would have to give up a lot to get him, now let me ask you guys this, if he sits till week 10 n then becomes a UFA next yr, would you sign him???

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 12:28 AM |

I'm not against signing him now. I'm just against business as usual as we've done it over the last decade+. Giving up too much for a guy with flags. UFA? Again, depends on his price tag and also what MK/DT do this year. I would say that I would rather sign an UFA then give up draft picks.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | July 6, 2010 12:34 AM | Report abuse

brandon-

I'd trade for him for the right price (2012 3rd) or sign him as a UFA for the right price.

However, I'd be very hesitant to sign a guy that is willing to ignore his teammates for ten weeks tho and would have to believe that would hurt his value as a UFA.

Posted by: Diesel44 | July 6, 2010 12:37 AM | Report abuse

I think this move would be the opposite of business as usual.

I feel like "as usual" would mean that cerratto gets on the web n tells us that we finally have our missing link to our next superbowl.

This pick up could be a building block to our new offense as oppossed to biz as usual where our FA signings were jigsaw peices.

Point of the story is simple. If we do get him, whatever the price, its the right price because we got him.

The new Regime has shown if the price ain't right they ain't interested ( chad clifton, barry sims ring some bells??)

If we get him it'll be from a very creative trade and Jacksons acceptness of slightly less money that marshall

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 12:51 AM | Report abuse

Hope its the last post, hope it ends V.Jackson's three day marathon. Folks, for three days I've red V.Jackson's arguments on the blog, both pros and cons, some makes sense and some are based on emotions rather than reality, and some are just below smarts. However I have a question, aren't we the same Skins fans that is critical of previous administration about their penchant to go after other teams star? Are we now hypocrites? Listen guys, V.Jackson was not productive until the 4th year, don't quote me, check the stats yourselves. In fact, take away his 4th year, V.Jackson stats are very similar to those of Devin and Malcom; very ordinary. Give Devin and Malcom a chance with a Pro-bowl QB. We have sufficient pass catchers on this team, V.Jackson is not a priority, believe it or not, I'm more concerned about our defense than offense.
Hail!

Posted by: abxinc | July 6, 2010 12:51 AM | Report abuse

I think this move would be the opposite of business as usual.

I feel like "as usual" would mean that cerratto gets on the web n tells us that we finally have our missing link to our next superbowl.

This pick up could be a building block to our new offense as oppossed to biz as usual where our FA signings were jigsaw peices.

Point of the story is simple. If we do get him, whatever the price, its the right price because we got him.

The new Regime has shown if the price ain't right they ain't interested ( chad clifton, barry sims ring some bells??)

If we get him it'll be from a very creative trade and Jacksons acceptness of slightly less money that marshall

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 12:52 AM | Report abuse

I too am worried about our defense

Not the quality, which should be high, but there age concerns me.

We are right in the middle of rebuilding our offense, and pretty close to done.

4 more positons to be addressed, RB, WR, LG n C

Jackson could be a huge addition n a much needed step towards finish the new offense

On defense we have a couple more holes to fill..... ok so a lot more holes

We need a true NT, ILB, OLB, CB n maybe a true FS ( depending on the development of current players)

Sign jackson this yr, complete the turnaround on offense, then re vamp the d with youth.

I believe the saying is Hail?!

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 1:06 AM | Report abuse

I too am worried about our defense

Not the quality, which should be high, but there age concerns me.

We are right in the middle of rebuilding our offense, and pretty close to done.

4 more positons to be addressed, RB, WR, LG n C

Jackson could be a huge addition n a much needed step towards finish the new offense

On defense we have a couple more holes to fill..... ok so a lot more holes

We need a true NT, ILB, OLB, CB n maybe a true FS ( depending on the development of current players)

Sign jackson this yr, complete the turnaround on offense, then re vamp the d with youth.

I believe the saying is Hail?!

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 1:07 AM | Report abuse

Everyone in favor of drafting a WR pleasseee remeber one thing.

Rarely do rookie WR make impacts. More often than not they have to develope first. Taking usually 3 to 4 years for the WR to be what there teams expect.

Now think about that for a second....

Yes, DT n MK are in year 3 so well see how that goes, but if the past is any indication of the future they may not be the ones for us.

If we use the 2nd rnd pic that the chargers want for jackson, n draft a wideout, we could screw ourselves.

In 3 yrs that'll be DMacs 4th yr n who knows if hell be with us then to see this wideout deliver.

Let's go out, get the best players available for our team, whomever they may be, however we need to get em and let's return to dominating the Nfc bEast

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 1:15 AM | Report abuse

Everyone in favor of drafting a WR pleasseee remeber one thing.

Rarely do rookie WR make impacts. More often than not they have to develope first. Taking usually 3 to 4 years for the WR to be what there teams expect.

Now think about that for a second....

Yes, DT n MK are in year 3 so well see how that goes, but if the past is any indication of the future they may not be the ones for us.

If we use the 2nd rnd pic that the chargers want for jackson, n draft a wideout, we could screw ourselves.

In 3 yrs that'll be DMacs 4th yr n who knows if hell be with us then to see this wideout deliver.

Let's go out, get the best players available for our team, whomever they may be, however we need to get em and let's return to dominating the Nfc bEast

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 1:16 AM | Report abuse

I too am worried about our defense

Not the quality, which should be high, but there age concerns me.

We are right in the middle of rebuilding our offense, and pretty close to done.

4 more positons to be addressed, RB, WR, LG n C

Jackson could be a huge addition n a much needed step towards finish the new offense

On defense we have a couple more holes to fill..... ok so a lot more holes

We need a true NT, ILB, OLB, CB n maybe a true FS ( depending on the development of current players)

Sign jackson this yr, complete the turnaround on offense, then re vamp the d with youth.

I believe the saying is Hail?!

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 1:18 AM | Report abuse

I too am worried about our defense

We need a true NT, ILB, OLB, CB n maybe a true FS ( depending on the development of current players)

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 1:18 AM


I've been saying this all offseason...we've been paying so much attention to improving the offense for so long that we take the performance of the D for granted. Ironically, I think we'll see a reversal of fortunes, as the offense will be much improved and the D will take a step back.

I think our saving grace will be that the D will take the ball away more than we've seen recently and will provide shorter fields for the offense. But I wouldn't count on them holding people to low yardage/low scores. Think a poor man's Saints D from last season.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 5:25 AM | Report abuse

I've been saying this all offseason...we've been paying so much attention to improving the offense for so long that we take the performance of the D for granted. Ironically, I think we'll see a reversal of fortunes, as the offense will be much improved and the D will take a step back.

I think our saving grace will be that the D will take the ball away more than we've seen recently and will provide shorter fields for the offense. But I wouldn't count on them holding people to low yardage/low scores. Think a poor man's Saints D from last season.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 5:25 AM | Report abuse

I agree, brownie. I really like our D, and am not knocking them.

But if a team has a weak O, the competition plays more conservatively, protecting the lead and running out the clock. For the last several years, our D has been ranked top 10, partly because the team we were playing could work the clock, because they did not fear our O.

Now, as we appear to have improved our O, competition will have to take more chances, be more aggressive. And we have a few older key D players(LF, PD) and a few key players either susceptible or coming of injuries(RM, Maake, CH, JJ). So I think even tho we will start out the year with a solid D, I'm worried about how injuries and a more aggressive opposition will affect the D.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 6:40 AM | Report abuse

I hear ya Fritz...I'm just don't think we have the depth or the personnel to pull off this 3-4 switch right away. We need a ton of help at LB and the DBs are average at best. If we get a couple pleasant surprises at LB, we might pull it off but I wouldn't exactly count on that at this phase of the game.

Boy, I can't wait for training camp...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 6:53 AM | Report abuse

Boy, I can't wait for training camp...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 6:53 AM | Report abuse

I've never looked forward sooo much for my birthday (7/29) since I was a 10 year old.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 6:56 AM | Report abuse

I know some up here are rubbed the wrong way by Jason Whitlock, but I think he's dead on with this column:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/michael-vick-sets-everybody-back-jason-whitlock

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 7:04 AM | Report abuse

I've never looked forward sooo much for my birthday (7/29) since I was a 10 year old.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 6:56 AM


Well, a Happy Birthday in advance, Fritz.

And a Happy Birthday to us all.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 7:07 AM | Report abuse

Geez, what do we have to do for a new thread?

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 7:25 AM | Report abuse

I know some up here are rubbed the wrong way by Jason Whitlock, but I think he's dead on with this column:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/michael-vick-sets-everybody-back-jason-whitlock

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 7:04 AM | Report abuse

Cosign, brownie. I'm very happy to have DMac as our team leader. LF and Dmac are really classy leaders, and we are lucky to have both of them. And to me, it has nothing to do with color. They are both the creme de la creme, regardless of race.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 7:46 AM | Report abuse

Good morning everybody, so much for thinking I missed a post or 2 yesterday. Didn't know RI observed govt holidays too.

Posted by: Predator48 | July 6, 2010 7:46 AM | Report abuse

Geez, what do we have to do for a new thread?

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 7:25 AM | Report abuse

Ahh, prolly a new story on AH.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 7:48 AM | Report abuse

Geez, what do we have to do for a new thread?

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 7:25 AM | Report abuse

Word. I thought maybe Reid was stockpiling some stories during last OTA and minicamp. Hope he's got something...for the next month or so.

Posted by: RomoLongballs | July 6, 2010 7:59 AM | Report abuse

Agreed fritz...getting proven leaders like that on each side of the ball is a HUGE help in the transition to the new regime. I think Whitlock has a point when he says that McNabb doesn't get nearly enough respect for what he's accomplished and that Vick is waaay overrated, especially by us black folks.

And yes, I felt that way about McNabb even when he was an Eagle.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 8:01 AM | Report abuse

I know some up here are rubbed the wrong way by Jason Whitlock, but I think he's dead on with this column:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/michael-vick-sets-everybody-back-jason-whitlock

Posted by: brownwood26

I agree with the J Whitlocks take. Never could understand the thinking of people who defend Vick's behavior and try to paint him as a victim.
Guys like Doug Williams and Warren Moon had to work so hard to get respect as a QB in this league, and Mike Vick throws his career away just because he can't let that hood mentality go.
I remember in 2005 when the whole TO vs McNabb issue was playin out. There was a dude fron the Philly NAACP who starting doggin' DMac, calling him a "mediocre brotha".
That had me wondering just WTF is up with our people sometimes.

Posted by: Predator48 | July 6, 2010 8:05 AM | Report abuse

Damn, it takes a while to scroll down to the bottom of this post. This is ridiculous, they can't just make up something or cut and paste from another site like they usually do?
By the way, is there a limit to how many responses can be on a post? Does it expand as much as possible and eventually pop like a balloon, or does it just keep getting bigger and bigger and not be phased like Albert Haynesworth at and all you can eat buffet?

Posted by: monk811 | July 6, 2010 8:06 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: Predator48 | July 6, 2010 8:13 AM | Report abuse

I'm with you Predator...the race component aside, I never understood why so many were so smitten with his speed/running ability and completely ignore the fact that dude rendered completely useless when forced to stand in the pocket. Tampa used to negate his speed on a pretty regular basis and exposed him for the fraud he is. Even coming outta college dude would run 5 times for 100 yards, yet have a sh*tty 5 for 13 passing day for about half the yardage. Yet he was the 1st overall pick in a draft that featured LaDainian Tomlinson, Richard Seymour, and Reggie Wayne. Unreal.

All McNabb has done is take a sad-sack franchise like the Eagles and turn them into a perennial contender despite the lack of elite help on offense and a coach who stubbornly refuses to run the ball. All he's done is play better than any QB in Eagles history. All he's done is play his way into the Hall of Fame conversation. Yet he's some kind of "sellout" because he seeks to perfect his game as a pocket passer and doesn't run when his first progression isn't open.

Ass backwards, IMO...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 8:16 AM | Report abuse

Speaking of black QB dissappointments...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/07/05/jamarcus-russell-gets-arrested/

Posted by: Predator48 | July 6, 2010 8:13 AM

LOL...his level of disappointment transcends race, my friend...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 8:18 AM | Report abuse

"So this is the same universe where Austin Collie, Mike Wallace, Jericho Cotchery, Kevin Walter, Derrick Mason and Malcolm Floyd are also more "valuable" wide receivers than Brandon Marshall.posted by p1funk"

Well, I believe I used the term 'productive'. Not 'valuable'. Productive is a term usually measured by numbers. Valuable is usually subjective.

Couple things about Brandon Marshall last season: first, his yards per catch went down for the fourth season in a row. From 15.5 in his first year, when he was a reserve who caught 20 balls, to a shade over 11 yards when he was Denver's main receiving threat. Number of catches has gone up, of course. Second, although his total catches have increased, he's not converting a whole lot of them to TDs. Last year he had 10TDs in 101 receptions, or 1 in 10.

By comparison, Vince Jackson doesn't catch nearly as many balls but his yards per catch is high and has remained that way through his short career. He caught 9TDs in 68 receptions, last year, or 1 every 7.6.

This usually suggests the two receivers are being used differently -- Jackson as a downfield threat, Marshall more underneath and also in the red zone.

Given those differences, the numbers do suggest that Jackson was in fact more productive than Marshall last season. Which is what I said.

Of course Denver didn't have Philip Rivers and Antonio Gates, and that certainly affected things.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 5, 2010 7:11 PM | Report abuse


""The simple version: DYAR means a wide receiver with more total value. DVOA means a wide receiver with more value per play.""

This is the description of the table that the Football Outsiders created. They are creating a metric to gauge the "value" of wide receivers. The table that you are using says that Collie, Wallace, Meachem, Mason and Floyd have more "value" than Marshall.


""As far as productivity, though, the numbers suggest V. Jackson was a lot more productive than Marshall was last season.""

This is your exact quote. But what you've boiled it down to now is a reception-to-TD ratio. Why? What does a reception-to-TD ratio tell us about V.Jackson being "alot more productive"?

Roy Williams had 38 catches and 7 TDs. Jacoby Jones had 27 receptions and 6TDs. By your measurement, both those guys are light years more productive than both Marshall and Jackson.

Yes, they use B.Marshall to catch alot of underneath balls and shorter routes...and he also catches TDs...he basically does everything...why is that a strike against his "productivity"?

Basically, if Marshall didn't catch all the balls they throw to him on the shorter routes, then he'd end up being "more productive" b/c it would increase his average/per catch?

Why do all these gymnastics with the numbers?

Brandon Marshall had alot more receptions and more TDs than V.Jackson last season, and only about 50 fewer receiving yards...so was VJax alot more productive?

Posted by: p1funk | July 6, 2010 8:26 AM | Report abuse

"What was his Wonderlic score? Teams should put more weight behind testing like this when they make draft decisions.Posted by: SnakerJake"

See, I think if they're going to attempt to test intelligence, they should use a real test, not some 10 minute personnel quiz designed for a range of occupations that have less than nothing to do with pro football.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 8:28 AM | Report abuse

I tend to agree with pfunk...all these assinine theorems and cooked statistics are all crap. There are three questions you have to ask when looking to pick up a WR:

-Does he fit my system/organization?
-Can he get open?
-Can he make a play once he gets open?

Anything else is nitpicking.

pfunk, the Redskins let go of a guy who would be ranked really high based on the stats you're disputing. His name?

Darnerien McCants.

Dude had about 6 TDs on only 27 catches in '03. I can't imagine why he didn't make the Pro Bowl that year...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 8:44 AM | Report abuse

"Brandon Marshall had alot more receptions and more TDs than V.Jackson last season, and only about 50 fewer receiving yards...so was VJax alot more productive?Posted by: p1funk"

I guess I don't see what's so complicated.
Marshall had one more TD than Jackson on 33 more receptions. Marshall caught 66% of passes where he was the primary target. Jackson caught 63%. That translates to Marshall being the primary target on around 150 passes last season, and Jackson around 100. That means Denver threw to Marshall about 10 times a game, while SD threw to Jackson about 6.7 times.

The inference: if SD had looked Vince's way more often, he would quickly have surpassed Brandon in TDs.

Same thing holds with total yardage. The reason Brandon has a slim lead there despite catching 33 more passes is because he gets less yardage per reception.

A player who is the primary target of 50 additional passes over the course of a season (and catches a reasonable percentage) should be expected to have more yards and TDs, unless there's something wrong.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 8:45 AM | Report abuse

Samson, I think you're forgetting a key component to the VJ/Marshall debate:

Marshall's QB: Kyle Orton
VJ's QB: Phil Rivers

I'll let that marinate...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 8:51 AM | Report abuse

"Dude had about 6 TDs on only 27 catches in '03. I can't imagine why he didn't make the Pro Bowl that year...Posted by: brownwood26"

That error is called 'the statistics of small numbers'. Sample's too small. He simply didn't play enough to merit consideration.

Look at it this way: if McCants had maintained that pace over say, 75 receptions, he would have accumulated 16 TDs and received an engraved Pro Bowl invite.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 8:53 AM | Report abuse

The threshold more stats sites use is 50 receptions, and that's probably a little lower than it should be for accuracy.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 8:56 AM | Report abuse

"Samson, I think you're forgetting a key component to the VJ/Marshall debate:
Marshall's QB: Kyle Orton
VJ's QB: Phil Rivers
I'll let that marinate...
Posted by: brownwood26"

I didn't forget it; I keep mentioning it. WR stats can't ever be completely separated from QB stats. Pointed that out twice now. Rivers is more productive than Orton, and the SD offense is more productive than Denver's, even though Tomlinson was a shadow of himself last season.

It's entirely possible that Marshall was more 'valuable' to Denver than Jackson was to SD, simply because SD had more weapons. But in the sense of the usual indicators, he wasn't more 'productive.'

We'll see how he does in Miami.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 9:02 AM | Report abuse

"I tend to agree with pfunk...all these assinine theorems and cooked statistics are all crap. There are three questions you have to ask when looking to pick up a WR:
-Does he fit my system/organization?
-Can he get open?
-Can he make a play once he gets open?
Anything else is nitpicking."

Guys, yards per catch and TDs per reception aren't 'cooked statistics' and are used by every NFL and college team to judge receiver performance, and have been for about 20 years now. These are fundamentals. The stuff you cite is largely subjective.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 9:07 AM | Report abuse

I don't have a firm opinion on this other guy, but in terms of controlled experiments, I'm interested in the following:

My hypothesis is that DMac --> SM/DT/MK will be superior to Soupy --> SM/DT/MK, and superior to Soupy --> Raider#1/ Raider#2.
I would like to see if DMac --> SM/DT/MK/CC/FD is superior to DMac --> DeSean Jackson/Maclin/Celek.

Posted by: daggar | July 6, 2010 9:13 AM | Report abuse

Samson, you're comparing a guy who played with an inferior QB in a WCO to a guy in a downfield passing attack with a Pro Bowl QB. Apples and oranges, boss.

I'll repeat:

-Does he fit my system/organization?
-Can he get open?
-Can he make a play once he gets open?

Anything else is nitpicking.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 9:23 AM | Report abuse

I don't have a firm opinion on this other guy, but in terms of controlled experiments, I'm interested in the following:

My hypothesis is that DMac --> SM/DT/MK will be superior to Soupy --> SM/DT/MK, and superior to Soupy --> Raider#1/ Raider#2.
I would like to see if DMac --> SM/DT/MK/CC/FD is superior to DMac --> DeSean Jackson/Maclin/Celek.

Posted by: daggar | July 6, 2010 9:13 AM | Report abuse

Interesting, daggar. I agree with your hypothesis that DMac will make our receivers better.

Concerning Skins vs Iggle receivers, in my opinion, SM has better hands, and is smarter than DSJ, but DSJ is more athletic. I would prefer CC & FD over Celek. But Macklin is the wild card. I'm not sure that DT will measure up to him. Here's hoping, but right now, all it is is hope.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 9:26 AM | Report abuse

Was anybody surprised to hear that JaMarcus likes the "purple drank"? He played like sombody had spiked his gatorade with it ever since getting drafted.

Posted by: MColeman51 | July 6, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

"Samson, you're comparing a guy who played with an inferior QB in a WCO to a guy in a downfield passing attack with a Pro Bowl QB. Apples and oranges, boss."

This'll be my last attempt.

The fact that Marshall was the main receiver in a WCO is a big reason he got those 101 receptions. But the year before, under Shanahan and with Jay Cutler throwing, he had 104. And averaged only 1 more yard per, and had 4 fewer TD receptions.

The stuff you're relying on -- whether you think somebody fits the scheme, whether the guy seems to be able to make a play, etc. -- who's opinion are you taking? The coach? Scouts? Your own? Other guys on the blog?

I suppose the coach knows what he's talking about, at least. Although coaches disagree, don't they? Watch the same tape and come up with different evaluations.

What's our qualifications? HD TV? 20-20 vision with corrective lenses? We watched a lot of football over the years? Some of it when we were sober?

C'mon, it's the 21st century.

I'll repeat:

-Does he fit my system/organization?
-Can he get open?
-Can he make a play once he gets open?

Anything else is nitpicking.

Posted by: brownwood26

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

I'll repeat:

-Does he fit my system/organization?
-Can he get open?
-Can he make a play once he gets open?

Anything else is nitpicking.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 9:23 AM

Those are key questions indeed. Here's hoping that Thomas and Kelly can be marked down in the affirmative at the start of this season.

Posted by: TWISI | July 6, 2010 9:38 AM | Report abuse

Sorry, that last fragment from "I'll repeat" on is all Brownwood.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 9:39 AM | Report abuse

"LOL...his level of disappointment transcends race, my friend..."

And to think right after he was released by the Raiders all of the fools on this very blog that wanted the Skins to sign that guy.

I said he may never play again, and it looks to be the case.

- Ray

Posted by: rmcazz | July 6, 2010 9:39 AM | Report abuse

Agree to disagree Samson...I'm just making the case that you can't just retreat to a lab and study numbers to determine if a guy can play or can't play or if he's better than another guy in another system. If it were that easy to do, GMs and scouts would do it routinely and not miss so damn much on WRs in the draft.

Ray, I agree man...I'll be completely stunned if JaMarcus Russell plays another down of NFL football in his life. Dude is a UFL backup if ever I saw one...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 9:50 AM | Report abuse

"Geez, what do we have to do for a new thread?"

It might be some time before that happens as it appears that without relevant football news, mistamayor's administration is on vacation.

All we really will hear about is Trent Williams being signed or Albert Haynesworth's claims of wanting to report to the camp of team he'd rather not play for already having the money they were dumb enough to give him up front.

Beyond that, there is no football news.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 6, 2010 9:55 AM | Report abuse

All he's done is play better than any QB in Eagles history.

Better than Norm Van Brocklin? Better than our own no. 9, Sonny Jurgensen? I like DM5, too, but I'm not sure I would go this far.

Posted by: rufus_t_firefly | July 6, 2010 9:58 AM | Report abuse

twisi

"Here's hoping that Thomas and Kelly can be marked down in the affirmative at the start of this season."


We post about the faults of Thomas/Kelly forgetting that Fred Davis should and will have a better season than either one of them.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 6, 2010 9:59 AM | Report abuse

We post about the faults of Thomas/Kelly forgetting that Fred Davis should and will have a better season than either one of them.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 6, 2010 9:59 AM |

I don't consider FD in the same category as the other two. Fred has shown he can be a productive player for the Skins. In fact, I think he'll be the x-factor in our passing game. Fred's speed and run after the catch ability makes him a match up problem for other teams. With Fred and Cooley on the field together, it's a win for the Skins. The question is will it be a win for the Skins when one or both of these players are off the field?

Posted by: TWISI | July 6, 2010 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Better than Norm Van Brocklin? Better than our own no. 9, Sonny Jurgensen? I like DM5, too, but I'm not sure I would go this far.

Posted by: rufus_t_firefly | July 6, 2010 9:58 AM


Rufus, here's Van Brocklin's numbers:

Pass attempts 2,895
Pass completions 1,553
Percentage 53.6
TD-INT 173-178
Passing Yards 23,611
QB Rating 75.1

Even if his numbers were off the hook, he only played 3 years in Philly.

Here's Sonny's numbers:

Pass attempts 4,262
Pass completions 2,433
Percentage 57.1
TD-INT 255-189
Passing Yards 32,224
QB Rating 82.6

His first 4 years in Philly, he did close to nothing and only made one of his 5 career Pro-Bowls there. If you look at the numbers (here: http://www.nfl.com/players/sonnyjurgensen/profile?id=JUR118654), he clearly got into the HoF based on his tenure as a Redskin.

Considering McNabb's numbers are right with Sonny's despite playing just 11 seasons to Sonny's 18, I stand by my assertion that DMac is the best QB in Eagles history.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 10:08 AM | Report abuse

A 2nd plus anything is too much. We upgraded our QB and RT/LT position with a 2nd and then a future 3rd and 4th. We received a 6x pro bowler at QB and a 2x pro bowler at T and you want to exchange almost a similar deal for a dude with serious red flags and 2 yrs of production?

I'd take him but at a deal for a guy very similar to him (Santonio Holmes) a 2012 3rd. I'd then give him a very incentive laden contract.

Posted by: Diesel44

McNabb is 33 years old and on the downside of his career. The tackle that was picked up missed the previous year with a couple of injuries. He was no longer a starter on the team that traded him. I do think it was a good move. Low risk high reward but it is less than 50% chance that he gets back to his pro bowl level.

VJax is 27 years old and just entering his prime. He will command no less than what was given up with Marshall. He does not have nearly the baggage of marshall nor the injury history.

He is not going to come to the Redskins and sign an incentive laden contract. He will get at least a good of contract as Marshall did in Miami.

AJ smith is not an idiot. He is not going to take crappy players in return for trade. It will be draft picks. All the smart GMs know you can't build a team with high priced free agents or trades. They eat up too much cap space.

Posted by: srobert1117 | July 6, 2010 10:21 AM | Report abuse

brownwood:

Since the holes on the o-line have been plugged (at least, on paper) I've been off following my grandson's baseball career. Just doesn't seem to be much happening now with the 'SKINS until training camp begins.
Besides most of the swill coming from overbearing types was a little too much for me to digest. So I lurk a bit, and check in occasionally just to keep my hand in. But I'll be seeing you here toward the end of the month. Keep it flowin'.

Posted by: glawrence007 | July 6, 2010 10:25 AM | Report abuse

Coryell will be in the Hall of Fame before we get another post.

Posted by: rickyroge | July 6, 2010 10:30 AM | Report abuse

I'll repeat:

-Does he fit my system/organization?
-Can he get open?
-Can he make a play once he gets open?

Anything else is nitpicking.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 9:23 AM

Missed a huge point. How much better does he make my team?

In our case, a lot better because our 3 WRs are old, unproven and unproven with injury history.

VJax changes this to
top 10-ish, old, unproven and unproven with injury history.

scenario 2 has much better odds for success

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 6, 2010 10:31 AM | Report abuse

srobert1117

"He (VJax)is not going to come to the Redskins and sign an incentive laden contract. He will get at least a good of contract as Marshall did in Miami."


I agree and I'd also offer that a lot of the posters hating on the idea of adding Jackson probably haven't even seen him play.

One of the advantages of the Sunday Ticket is once the Skins' game is over, you can scan around and check out multiple games/players.

The thing I noticed about Jackson is if a ball can his way, he owned it.

He and Rivers are one of the best combinations most football fans haven't heard of.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 6, 2010 10:37 AM | Report abuse

What if???
If Moss went down with and injury and you didn’t pick up a guy like VJack during the off season. Who would start and then do you feel comfortable going into the season with the receivers we have?

Posted by: krystal_ball | July 6, 2010 10:38 AM | Report abuse

Missed a huge point. How much better does he make my team?

In our case, a lot better because our 3 WRs are old, unproven and unproven with injury history.

VJax changes this to
top 10-ish, old, unproven and unproven with injury history.

scenario 2 has much better odds for success

Posted by: zcezcest1

While it does make the team better this year it could prove to be costly in years 2 and later. He is going to eat up 10 mil in cap space. He is also going to cost at least a 2nd rounder in next years draft as well as probably another 2nd in the following draft. The Skins are going to continue to have holes on both lines. Raback and Williams/Hicks are going to need to be replaced. It remains to be seen if Brown will be able to regain form and be on the team after next year. Add to that the Dline needs at least 1 starting DE and probably NT assuming AH gets traded. Fletcher and Carter are coming to the end of their rope. Rogers will be free agent after this year. That is a lot of holes to fill over the next couple of years. To do it with only a 1st, 5th, 6th and 7th next year is going to be tough. If they are unable to unload AH and even if they do he might cost 12 mil against the cap for the next 3 years. Vjax will more than likely cost about 10 mil. McNabb will probably take 10mil as well. That would be 32mil wrapped up in 3 players. This means that most of the holes will be filled with low cost free agents because of the lack of picks. This will create a circle of mediocrity.

Posted by: srobert1117 | July 6, 2010 10:46 AM | Report abuse

What's our qualifications?
a. HD TV?
b. 20-20 vision with corrective lenses?
c. We watched a lot of football over the years?
d. Some of it when we were sober?
Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

I'll pick answer d! LOL

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Missed a huge point. How much better does he make my team?

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 6, 2010 10:31 AM


No I didn't...if you can answer the 3 questions in the affirmative, then the player obviously makes your team better.

I don't question whether VJ makes our WR corps better, I just question whether he's worth giving up yet another high pick and a big contract. Right now, I don't think the Skins can afford to do either.

If we're dumping AH for VJ, I'm all for it. Any scenario involving a 2nd rounder or higher? Pass.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 10:50 AM | Report abuse

I know some up here are rubbed the wrong way by Jason Whitlock, but I think he's dead on with this column:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/michael-vick-sets-everybody-back-jason-whitlock

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 7:04 AM | Report abuse

Cosign, brownie. I'm very happy to have DMac as our team leader. LF and Dmac are really classy leaders, and we are lucky to have both of them. And to me, it has nothing to do with color. They are both the creme de la creme, regardless of race.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 7:46 AM

Yo! It's the freakin 1st day of my work week....everything was great....And I come on here to see y'all MoFos agree with this self-hating MoFo???

WTF?!!?!??!

From the article:

Remember when Avon Barksdale got sprung from prison in Season 3 of "The Wire"? Stringer Bell (McNabb) had everything laid out for Avon — a plush condo overlooking the harbor, legitimate businesses and a Salt-n-Pepa welcome-home team compliments of Tony Soprano’s Bada Bing.

But that wasn’t enough for Avon. He just had to hear his name ring out on those Baltimore corners. Avon had to take his corners back from Marlo Stanfield. Dumbass.

======================================

Come the F$#K on! Stringer Bell was the snitch. HE was the worse out of the 2 evils. Barksdale played by the rules. Stringer Bell was out there telling on who killed who, and he had Barksdale's nephew killed in jail so Stringer can have his girlfriend and he didn't tell Barksdale til the very end years later. Then he snitched on his own man at the end of the day! Plus he was getting hoodwinked by the politicians and the real estate developers.

And y'all think McNabb is like freaking Stringer Bell?!!?!?

Whaaaaaa....lololol....Y'all keep trying to validate JAson Whitlock as a 'smart' Black SPorts Journalist if you want...He ain't nothing but an Uncle Ruckus (Boondocks).....

And he is a big time hater....He was sh!ttin on Mike Vick cuz he was/is fat and slow and couldn't do 1% of what Vick did.....And I could keep going on, but I leave it at that for right now.....SMMFH...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 6, 2010 10:53 AM | Report abuse

What if???
If Moss went down with and injury and you didn’t pick up a guy like VJack during the off season. Who would start and then do you feel comfortable going into the season with the receivers we have?

Posted by: krystal_ball | July 6, 2010 10:38 AM


What if McNabb goes down? Would you be comfortable with Rex Grossman?

What if Trent Williams goes down? Would you be comfortable with Stephon Heyer in there at LT?

What if London Fletcher goes down? Would you be comfortable with some undrafted slappy starting at ILB?

See how it works?

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 10:56 AM | Report abuse

No I didn't...if you can answer the 3 questions in the affirmative, then the player obviously makes your team better.

Posted by: brownwood26
NOOOOOOOO!!!!! If I answered yes to your questions about a TE, I wouldn't trade for him because we're sick with TE talent.

We're not in good shape at WR. VJax turns an area of weakness into a strength. That is why you make the trade.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 6, 2010 10:58 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: srobert1117 | July 6, 2010 10:46 AM

The Skins will draft a WR early in next year's draft. Moss is an UFA after the 2010 season, and both Devin and Malcolm will be entering their contract year. So while there is many other holes to fill, you can WR at either 1 or 2 of the list.

Posted by: TWISI | July 6, 2010 10:59 AM | Report abuse

And he is a big time hater....He was sh!ttin on Mike Vick cuz he was/is fat and slow and couldn't do 1% of what Vick did.....And I could keep going on, but I leave it at that for right now.....SMMFH...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 6, 2010 10:53 AM


I never got into the Sopranos or The Wire, so I can't speak on his comparison, but I wouldn't call Whitlock "a hater". He takes some pretty unpopular positions on certain topics and he does come off as an idiot from time to time. All I'm saying is that he's dead on about Vick with that article.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 10:59 AM | Report abuse

VJ ain't going no where. AH ain't going no where.

But Selvish Capers wILL be going somewhere....

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2010/07/selvish_capers_draft_story.html

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 6, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

Zeke, I think you missed the context of what I was saying...Samson was up here touting some formula that says that VJ is better than Brandon Marshall based on some yards per catch stat or something. All I was saying with "the 3 questions" was that trying to compare a guy who plays with a mediocre QB in a WCO to a guy who plays with a Pro-Bowl QB in a downfield passing attack is apples and oranges and that I base a WRs worth on answering those 3 questions in the affirmative. Wasn't necessarily applying that to the Skins getting/not getting VJ.

So I think VJ can help...just don't wanna bet the farm on it.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 11:04 AM | Report abuse

What if???
If Moss went down with and injury and you didn’t pick up a guy like VJack during the off season. Who would start and then do you feel comfortable going into the season with the receivers we have?

Posted by: krystal_ball | July 6, 2010 10:38 AM

There are several key positions you could play this "what if" game, and you could do it to almost any team. The only problem is a lot of these "what ifs" actually HAPPENED to the Skins last year--Portis, Moss, Cooley, O-line... and the one key guy left standing on offense really got almost all the heat for the lack of production--Jason Campbell.

Injuries will almost certainly play a big role on offense again this year, simply because some of our key players are older and/or have significant injury histories. They look good enough on paper, and we can only hope last year was an anomaly.

Posted by: Alan4 | July 6, 2010 11:12 AM | Report abuse

srobert1117 | July 6, 2010 10:46 AM

you make good points in your post, though I don't agree with all of them -- I think you've overstated some things. The key, as you point out, is this: do you want VJax to be one of your expensive players?

So lets take a look at that. Most teams can only afford 3 about $10million guys. McNabb is one and TWilliams is another.

Typically, LT and QB are big paycheck position. The other big paycheck position is RDE of ROLB. Fortunately, Orakpo is under his rookie contract for several more years, so we're getting top pass rusher at a decent discount.

Of note, 2 big $$ guys, Albert and DeAngelo, I think are both sunk costs (Albert avgs less than $5mil per year going forward, not sure about Hall, but I'd bet uncapped 2010 is when he sees his biggest check).

So I do think there is room for a 3rd pricey contract, though I doubt it crosses $10mil per year or costs us two 2nd rounders. You can argue it'd be better spent it elsewhere -- and have a pretty good argument. Still, there aren't many units more at risk of long term mediocrity than our WR group.

Smith knows he gets nothing for VJax if he plays hardball. The max value Smith will get for VJax is if he gets traded just before or during training camp. So its not urgent to make a move, but his trade value will start dropping in a little over a month

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 6, 2010 11:13 AM | Report abuse

He takes some pretty unpopular positions on certain topics and he does come off as an idiot from time to time. All I'm saying is that he's dead on about Vick with that article.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 10:59 AM

I too take unpopular positions, but I do because I believe in them, he does because he sees an opportunity, and takes monetary advantage of that opportunity: Hating Black People. Or, more specifically, Black People 30 and under primarily.

False Examples Whitlock uses in this article:

"And we wonder why NFL management (Jeff Ireland) chooses to ignore common decency and bombard young black kids (Dez Bryant) with insulting pre-draft questions."

His mother was arrested 2x for cocaine distribution. One as recently as last year, but she didn't get any time because he was a big time college player. And it was said that he said his father was a pimp and his mother worked for his father. So, what would be the next logical question? So, how did Vick cause THIS?

"NFL commissioner/top cop Roger Goodell should not bail out the Philadelphia Eagles by taking action against the Avon Barksdale of football. The more appropriate punishment would be to leave Vick’s cancerous carcass inside the Philly locker room, a fitting payback for the way the organization treated classy QB Donovan McNabb."

Ehhhh...They didn't get rid of McNabb for Vick?? WTF??? They got rid of McNabb for Kolb. PERIOD. So, how did Vick cause THIS?

And the second half of the article is about McNabb, but he keeps comparing to Vick, but why not Kolb?

This article is complete B.S. and could have been done better by a RIer in the comment section........

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 6, 2010 11:15 AM | Report abuse

4th, in an indirect way the Eagles did get rid of McNabb for Vick...I mean, if Vick isn't there do you REALLY think McNabb gets traded? They had 3 QBs on the roster: Kolb (QB of the future), McNabb (QB of the present), and Vick (versatile and experienced backup). If Vick isn't in the equation, they roll with McNabb one more year, let him go in FA in 2011, and sign Kolb to a modest extension to be the guy going forward. Having Vick gave them the flexibility to get rid of McNabb now and get something in return.

But that's neither here nor there...you obviously don't like Whitlock for a variety of reasons and I respect that. I don't mind the guy...I've hated plenty of his columns like you hate this one. I just thought this time he was right on by saying Vick gets way too much love from the black community when he's done nothing except bring shame to it.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 11:29 AM | Report abuse

Geez, is thing on?

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 11:46 AM | Report abuse

July sucks.

Posted by: Original_etrod | July 6, 2010 11:52 AM | Report abuse

Of note, 2 big $$ guys, Albert and DeAngelo, I think are both sunk costs (Albert avgs less than $5mil per year going forward, not sure about Hall, but I'd bet uncapped 2010 is when he sees his biggest check).

So I do think there is room for a 3rd pricey contract, though I doubt it crosses $10mil per year or costs us two 2nd rounders. You can argue it'd be better spent it elsewhere -- and have a pretty good argument. Still, there aren't many units more at risk of long term mediocrity than our WR group.

Smith knows he gets nothing for VJax if he plays hardball. The max value Smith will get for VJax is if he gets traded just before or during training camp. So its not urgent to make a move, but his trade value will start dropping in a little over a month

Posted by: zcezcest1

When you factor in a player's cost against the salary cap you have to factor in the signing bonus and base salary. AH is 4 years 48 mil. I don't believe any of the bonus rolls forward into this year if a player is cut. The NFL did this to specifically stop long term deals and big bonuses this the year in which they will be negotiating the new collective bargaining agreement. Bottom line is all bonus dollars paid out in the past and during this year will be spread out over the length of the contract. That is why you are not seeing teams dump high priced long term players. It is also why you are seeing very few players get big dollar contracts. Even players like Manning can't get it done. look at Anquan Boldin's contract. If you look closely he is playing this year at his previous contract and getting about 3 years at 7 mil per year tacked on to it.

Orakpo is going to have 3 more years at 5 mil per year. That is the perfect example why you build through the draft. To get someone of his ability in free agency would be about 10 mil per. You also have to factor in a new contract for him in about 3 years.

Posted by: srobert1117 | July 6, 2010 11:53 AM | Report abuse

July sucks.

Posted by: Original_etrod | July 6, 2010 11:53 AM | Report abuse

July sucks.

Posted by: Original_etrod | July 6, 2010 11:54 AM | Report abuse

Kolb was the one who quietly asking for an extension because he didn't want to go into 2010 on just a one year deal. Vick would have never been the starter. So, I don't even know how he comes into the eqaution. Kolb waslooking for starter money and he got it (via a $12Mil/1 year extension).

To me this adds up to MCNabb being forced out by upper management to see what the future (Kolb) do with this team, because Upper Management was def tired seeing what McNabb did....

...again, has nothing to do with Vick...And yes I don't like Whitlock, but he proves each time he writes why. Instead of adding to the self hatred, how about using that brain and enlighten us.....We are craving it, but he is insistent on wagging his fat finger at us...like 'tsk, tsk, tsk'.......

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 6, 2010 11:54 AM | Report abuse

Whaaaaaa....lololol....Y'all keep trying to validate JAson Whitlock as a 'smart' Black SPorts Journalist if you want...He ain't nothing but an Uncle Ruckus (Boondocks).....

And he is a big time hater....He was sh!ttin on Mike Vick cuz he was/is fat and slow and couldn't do 1% of what Vick did.....And I could keep going on, but I leave it at that for right now.....SMMFH...

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 6, 2010 10:53 AM | Report abuse

I'm not saying anything about Jason Whitlock, because I know nothing about him. I'm just saying I agree with what he said in this article.

Posted by: frediefritz | July 6, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

If McNabb = Uncle Ruckus
then Vick = A Pimp Named Slickback

Jus sayin.

Posted by: Predator48 | July 6, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

July sucks.

Posted by: Original_etrod | July 6, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

The new era is all about play makers.

3 upgrades on the o line

A HoF QB

2 decent back up rbs ( remember HATERS LJ n WP were signed to replace ladell betts n cartright, more upgrades)

Well get a new WR. Shanny wouldn't have touched either of ours with a ten foot pole. His bringing in of guys like Galloway, Wade n Furrey proves that.

Also for those against jackson, the injury thing is interesting..... with moss out what do we have???

Not much.

We need help at wr n I'm not sure shanny wants to get a project when the project he wanted back in '05 is blossoming n requesting a new team.

I love BA's quote about how long free agency is... he leaves the door open for anything

We shall see.......

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 11:57 AM | Report abuse

The new era is all about play makers.

3 upgrades on the o line

A HoF QB

2 decent back up rbs ( remember HATERS LJ n WP were signed to replace ladell betts n cartright, more upgrades)

Well get a new WR. Shanny wouldn't have touched either of ours with a ten foot pole. His bringing in of guys like Galloway, Wade n Furrey proves that.

Also for those against jackson, the injury thing is interesting..... with moss out what do we have???

Not much.

We need help at wr n I'm not sure shanny wants to get a project when the project he wanted back in '05 is blossoming n requesting a new team.

I love BA's quote about how long free agency is... he leaves the door open for anything

We shall see.......

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 11:57 AM | Report abuse

* beep beep *

new post...

Posted by: NateinthePDX | July 6, 2010 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Also for those against jackson, the injury thing is interesting..... with moss out what do we have???

Posted by: brandon_in_cali | July 6, 2010 11:57 AM


And what if we trade for VJ and HE gets hurt? Then we gave up a 2nd round pick for nothing.

See how it works?

Look, I don't think anyone up here is against getting VJ as a player. It's more about not wanting to give up more high picks than it is about not wanting VJ.

Then the other side of the coin is this: can he play at a level that warrants paying him the kinda money he wants? At best, it's debatable.

There's no debating that dude can play. But if you have to stop and think about whether a guy is worth a 1st/2nd round pick (or have to give a detailed thesis as to why you think he is), he's probably not.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 6, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

"Samson was up here touting some formula that says that VJ is better than Brandon Marshall based on some yards per catch stat or something.posted by brownwood"

LOL yards per reception and TD percentage are the measurements, and they're the ones the NFL uses.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 12:43 PM | Report abuse

"Considering McNabb's numbers are right with Sonny's despite playing just 11 seasons to Sonny's 18, I stand by my assertion that DMac is the best QB in Eagles history. Posted by: brownwood26"

Now that really IS an apples to oranges comparison. Sonny played for Philadelphia from 1957-1963. McNabb played for Philadelphia from 1999-2009.

That's a 40+ year difference. The NFL has undergone a sea change since then. Heck, several sea-changes.

Sonny and Donovan played the same position for the same franchise. That's about all they have in common. You could say the same thing about Johnny Unitas and Joe Flacco, and it would be about as much use.

For the comparison to have any validity, you'd have to adjust for the changes in the League over that span. For a start, the two QBs' performance would have to compared to the NFL averages for the years they played at Philly.

But if you're aim is to kill some time with a meaningless sports argument, knock yourself out. More power to ya.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 6, 2010 12:53 PM | Report abuse

If Thomas and Kelly were worth 2nd round picks based on their potential then Vincent Jackson is definitely worth a 2nd pick based on his production. Chargers are probably going to want more than a 2nd round pick though. Skins are better off signing T.O. to a 2 year deal.

Posted by: coparker5 | July 6, 2010 2:41 PM | Report abuse

SMACK under no circumstances will any African in South Africa root for the Dutch.

Posted by: learnedhand1

We are living ina world where Isrealis drive Mercedes and Americans buy Japanese and plan a vacation at the Nha Trang Hilton. Don't take my word for it, Ian said the crowd was largely pro-Dutch. I suspect much of the Africa support was anti- Uruguayan.

Posted by: TheCork | July 6, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

No one would have ever imagined they would land McNabb or the equivalent. So you don't think that altered the plan?

Posted by: srobert1117 | July 7, 2010 7:28 AM

A few of points. Every plan has contengency options built in, business 101. Second, the Skins had talked to Philly early in the offseason. Why, because everyone knew that the QB most likely to be traded was McNabb. Did they think it would happen..proally not, but they did have the foresight to explore that possibility. So yes, I think one of their contingencies was acquiring a veteran QB and either keeping JC as a backup or trading him. Third. I never said that there won't be a cap. I said we don't know what the cap value will be, how it will be calculated, the rookie wages against the cap etc. That is, it's way too early to be fretting about how tight the Skins are against the cap..we don't know that to be true. That into fact, that a bunch of players had front loaded contracts, AH, CP, Moss, DH and the Skins could have enough room. Finally, if you don't think the Skins will sign a player(s) to a $10 million in the future, then you are being unrealistic. The question each team has to face is which players get the top dollars. For example, the Vikings who seem to be well run will pay Farve $13 million this year. The Colts will pay Manning top $$. You pay the best players, who show the commitment you want the top dollars. I'm with brownwood26 and zcezcest1, there's nothing inherently wrong with the "win now" model, just commit to it fully in the year "you go for it"(The Pats did it when Bilicheat first git there, and then they got lucky with Brady). You just can't use that method every year at the expense of building with the draft. That's been the Skins problem.

Posted by: TWISI | July 7, 2010 8:14 AM | Report abuse

Don Coryell

Honorary Inductee
2010 Hall of Fame!

Posted by: TKing1 | July 9, 2010 10:24 PM | Report abuse

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