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Guest Blog: Who Should Be Next for the HOF?

Tim McAlevy submitted his take on who should be the next Skin to enter the hallowed halls. Wanted to share his thoughts with you guys and remind everyone that if you have a burning desire to express your opinion on the maroon and black, you can always email me the guest blog and assuming it's not something that will get me fired, I'll post it. Thanks.

Tim writes:

Now that Art Monk has been inducted, Redskins fans need to unite and focus their attention and energy on the next most qualified Redskin for the Hall of Fame. That player is NOT Russ Grimm, Joe Jacoby, Gary Clark, Larry Brown, Jerry Smith, Len Hauss or Pat Fischer. They were all great players, but the player most qualified for induction is Chris Hanburger.

Nine-time Pro Bowler. Five-time All Pro. 1972 NFC Defensive Player of the Year on the Redskins first Super Bowl team. Handpicked by George Allen to call defensive signals for one of the best defenses in the NFL during the 1970s. Don't forget those last two facts. People familiar with Hanburger often mention the Pro Bowl number (nine), but most people forget that he was once voted NFC Defensive Player of the Year (an honor bestowed on very few players) and was entrusted by the great defensive mastermind George Allen to call plays for his defense for five years.

The NFL Network recently ran an NFL Films special on the 10 best players not in the Hall of Fame. The 10 players they picked were Ken Anderson, Steve Tasker, Alex Karras, Ricky Watters, Ken Stabler, Bob Hayes, Jim Marshall, Chris Carter, Derrick Thomas and Jerry Kramer. Most of those players (except Tasker and Watters) should probably be in the Hall of Fame, but Hanburger is more qualified than anyone on that list except Chris Carter, and none of them has as many combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro selections (14) as Hanburger.

You will be hard pressed to find another retired player with 14 or more combined selections who is not in the Hall of Fame. Of all former NFL players who are eligible to be selected by the Veterans Committee, Hanburger is by far the strongest candidate in the field.

So why isn't Hanburger in the Hall of Fame? The biggest impediments to his induction appear to be his past relationship with the media (Len Shapiro has told many people that he was "very media unfriendly" during his playing career) and the fact that younger fans don't know anything about him and older fans have to be reminded of him before their eyes light up and they remember how good he was. Another impediment may be the timing of his career.

Hanburger's best years were between 1966 and 1976. He was a dominant player during the last half of the 1960s and the first half of the 1970s, but did not dominate either decade from beginning to end. As a result, he was not named to the all-decade team for the 1960s or 1970s, but he had an 11-year run between those two decades that was as good as almost any linebacker in NFL history.

What can Redskins fans do to help get Hanburger inducted?

Well, writing or talking to members of the local sports media and asking them to support the cause would certainly help. Writing to Daniel Snyder and asking him to mobilize the Redskins media machine behind this cause would help even more. Finally, if 5,000 (or more) Redskins fans took a few minutes out of their lives to send letters or e-mails to the Hall of Fame voters, those voters would be compelled to at least look at Hanburger's career.

Once they saw his numbers and talked to some of his peers (such as Sonny Jurgensen, Sam Huff, Fran Tarkenton, Don Coryell and Joe Gibbs, Mike Ditka, Bob Griese and other players and coaches from that era), his election would be a near certainty. The key is to make at least 5,000 Redskins fans (and some key media people) aware of Hanburger's Hall of Fame credentials and remind them that they can do the same thing for Hanburger that they did for Art Monk... crusade relentlessly until they get the necessary votes!

By Jason La Canfora  |  August 12, 2008; 8:25 PM ET
 
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Comments

Glogs... a pestilence I'd thought we'd rid ourselves of.

I think our best bet is to grow some new HOFers.

Posted by: cload & daggar | August 12, 2008 8:38 PM | Report abuse

guest blogs = stick in eye.

Posted by: Haywood Jablowme | August 12, 2008 8:39 PM | Report abuse

cotton balls stuffed in my ears...

hello?

Posted by: Chia Pet | August 12, 2008 8:41 PM | Report abuse

Haywood,

What's so bad about a guest blog?

Tim McAlevy makes some very interesting points.

Jealous?

Posted by: Chia Pet | August 12, 2008 8:43 PM | Report abuse

Chris Hanburger should be in, but what is it with the media friendly stuff??? What does that have to do with football??? I am probable in the minority in that I think Jacoby should be in over Grimm. Jacoby revolutionized the LT position as he was the first of the 300LB O-lineman.

With stats like Hanburger, how could you not be in? How in the hell could you let someone in the HOF with less stats and keep Hanburger out?

Posted by: sicwidit | August 12, 2008 8:45 PM | Report abuse

Hanburger has come up in this blog regarding the HOF. Has to be an oldtimer selection at this point and there are only 2 per year. Perhaps Len Shapiro is talking to the voters to see if he's got support from those who were covering the game while he played. Since its a 1 and done vote (either way), you want to make sure the voters are on your side before you make the push.

Historically, there is an anti-Skins bias in Hall voting. I'm not usually one to buy into such things, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming. Neither SJ9 or Charley Taylor were 1st ballot entries back when. Art Monk took forever to get in and Gary Clark never makes the top 25. Not a single Hog is in and only Grimm has gotten more than a sniff.

Someone pointed out Hanburger has more Pro Bowl selections than anyone else not in the Hall. Not sure if this is true, but 14 seasons at Pro Bowl or All Pro ... should be a lock.


Posted by: AL Zeke etc | August 12, 2008 8:47 PM | Report abuse

sic -- I'm with you on Jacoby over Grimm, but its not the prevailing viewpoint. Jacoby was a pancaking run blocker and a good pass blocker. Plus, tackle is more critical than guard. Jacoby went against LT on one side and Reggie White on the other after he flipped positions when Lachey came to town. Tough to be a HOF when you play those guys a lot.

Overall, the best Hog was might have been Lachey, but he was only here for 1 SB win, so it makes sense that Grimm and Jacoby are the lead dogs. What doesn't make sense, why at least one of these guys isn't in.

Posted by: AL Zeke etc | August 12, 2008 8:53 PM | Report abuse

The problem with Hanburger's induction is three fold. One, he played on some of the worst defenses in team history while in his prime. Secondly and related, his teams didn't win anything. Finally, There are already are 5 (6 if you count Paul Krause) Redskins from that era in the HOF. Mitchell, Taylor, Jurgenson, Huff and Houston.

For a team that never won a championship that is quite a few players. I'd argue that Jerry Smith, due to his comparative numbers to other TEs and due to the prolific offenses he was on has a stronger argument for HOF snub than does Hanburger.

Alas, I don't think the HOF voters will vote in an openly gay, AIDS victim into the Hall (which shouldn't matter), but Smith in my humble opinion is more deserving than Hanburger. Both deserve it, but neither are very likely to get in.

Posted by: Keino | August 12, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Always liked Jerry Smith. Small for his position, but was faster than most and had a knack for getting open. I'm not sure he ever broke a tackle, but caught everything he got his hands on. The tight end position has changed a lot, so its hard to put Smith into context.

It wouldn't surprise me if homophobia might be at play with Smith, especially given the time period. But he also played on a team that threw a lot, and perhaps that works against his numbers.

As for the other HOF members from that era, Mitchell had a chunk of his HOF career with Cleveland, Huff's HOF years were with the Giants and Krause was only in DC for a few years.

Its clear that Sonny, Houston and Taylor all made the HOF based on their years in DC, though Houston came later and didn't overlap that much with Sonny and Taylor.

Posted by: AL Zeke etc | August 12, 2008 9:12 PM | Report abuse

For some reason, I want to remember that Hanburger was one of the main reasons that the clothesline tackle was banned in the NFL. He was a beast.

Jerry Smith, I believe, once led the Redskins in receptions, maybe the NFL. That's another first for TEs. Alas, Smith was the butt of many cruel jokes.

Hogs? That there isn't a member in the HOF brings shame to the entire HOF selection system. Without question, they owned the line of scrimmage and redefined O-line play. They were huge, but they moved like a dance team.

Posted by: Mr. Chili | August 12, 2008 9:24 PM | Report abuse

Bostic, Didier, Mosely

Posted by: Anonymous | August 12, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

allowing openly gay football players into the HOF is certainly not a message that should be sent to our children

Posted by: Anonymous | August 12, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

Neither is allowing ignorant homophobic slurs to be cast from behind a veil of anonymity.

Posted by: Kurt | August 12, 2008 9:50 PM | Report abuse

Anon, making the case for how little he knows about either football or life

Posted by: AL Zeke etc | August 12, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

I don't know if the politics are this petty but with 2 Skins going in this year, one being Monk whom so many writers were reluctant to put in plus the fact that the Skins fans turned Canton into RFK Ohio (woohoo) I don't think we're going to see a Skin in an HOF class for a couple of years at least.

[Watching Fletch - one of great comedies. Dr. Rosen Rosen. . .]

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 9:54 PM | Report abuse

My friend has had planter fascitis for going on 6 months. It can be deceptively bad injury. Hangs around and hangs around and flares up like well something that rhymes with hammies. Like Deion's turf toe remember?

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:00 PM | Report abuse

Pro Bowls doesn't mean you are a HOF'er....IF Ethan ALbright makes a few more, should he be in??

Posted by: cej75024 | August 12, 2008 10:04 PM | Report abuse

sorry, but if they have the right to be gay, and public schools have the right to cast homosexuality as a legitimate "alternative lifestyle", then I certainly have a right to have and express my opinion on what is right and wrong.

If that's homophobic, then so be it. This country has lost sight of what's right and wrong over the last decade. I prefer not to.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 12, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

Like Deion's turf toe remember?

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:00 PM

Yes.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 12, 2008 10:19 PM | Report abuse

allowing openly gay football players into the HOF is certainly not a message that should be sent to our children

Posted by: Anonymous | August 12, 2008 9:42 PM

Touche, Touche.

Posted by: Mr. Simmons | August 12, 2008 10:21 PM | Report abuse

hey look at me excerising my right to free speech and thought and doing so behind the blanket of annoymity. and I get to tell other people with my freedom that they aren't allowed to be free cause well I've decided it's wrong and freedom is only for those of us who are right and the rest of you can go to he!! oh and if that means I'm a bigot well by golly where would this country be without good old fashioned bigotry.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 12, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

Hanburger? ole #55?

I recall he was good in pass coverage and blitzing.
Was not really a big OLB for even his era.
He played RLB, don't recall who it was against but I think he had 3 pics in one game when I was a little kid! Giants / Cardinals? Memory says it was a division game, but you know, its been years, so its getting cloudy...
Perhaps someone would like to do the research for us?

I went to Carlisle, PA where Training Camp was conducted in those days. Many of us kids went up to Chris immediately following a hot summer practice and were sticking their note pads into his chest, and he was trying to walk out of the gate. Suddenly I heard him raise his voice to one of the kids not far from me at all saying, "Can't you even say 'please'?"

For the next hour I'd hear kids and some adults complain about Hanburger being mean. But I had been taught respect and manners by my parents, and I remember though I was probably only 12 or 13 and thinking for the first time in my life that we kids were rude, selfish and not understanding what those guys had just been through on a hot August day.

Posted by: RedskinRay1 | August 12, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

AMEN....well said, Anon

Posted by: Anonymous | August 12, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

RedskinRay...

nice story and very happy for the lesson you learned as a kid......problem is that politeness is no longer a desired state in this society. There is no right and wrong anymore. To call someone rude would be considered bigotry and violating their rights.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 12, 2008 10:35 PM | Report abuse

So gawd help me I'm watching a little of replay of NE v. BAL preseason on NFLN. . .I'd forgotten they drafted Joe Flacco which means skinny in spanish with an extra 'c'.

Joe Skinny - not a very inspiring QB name.

I realize this started a long time ago but for some reason I am oddly annoyed by WRs with low jersey #s. Pet peeve like people who drive slow in the fast lane.

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:37 PM | Report abuse

and gayness

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:38 PM | Report abuse

and gayness

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:38 PM

: ) Imitation, the sincerest form of flattery.

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:42 PM | Report abuse

Is this me?

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

Or is this me?

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

I'm sfskin!

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:44 PM | Report abuse

No I'm sfskin!

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:45 PM | Report abuse

Oh shut up already!

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:45 PM | Report abuse

You shut up!

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:47 PM | Report abuse

I feel the same way sfskin, and in particular, the #12. There have been too many great #12 QBs, one in particular I can think of. It just looks wrong on Marques Colston, who is also rumored to drive slow in the fast lane.

Posted by: SMACK | August 12, 2008 10:50 PM | Report abuse

Smack - glad you said something . . . saving me from myself.

Not sure which 'great' #12 QB you are referring to. . . .

:-)

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:54 PM | Report abuse

I think the critical thing, as others have noted, is the Seniors Committee. They're the wedge that will get Hanburger through this process.

And here they are:
Rick Gosselin, Dallas Morning News
John McClain, Houston Chronicle
Edwin Pope, Miami Herald
Jerry Magee, San Diego Union Tribune
Ira Miller, The Sports Xchange
Dave Goldberg, Associated Press
Len Shapiro, Miami Herald
+ two more yet to be named, out of the 38 other selectors

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/selectionprocess.html

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 12, 2008 11:05 PM | Report abuse

Wow...Just Wow...

Those Chinese girls look all of 12. Even the announcers are extremely skeptical of these girls.

They questioned their ages on air and said that we should judge for ourselves. They were stating that they verify age by passports.

The announcers also stated that this one specific girl who was beasting out at the time has never competed in international competition before. NEVER. And she was BEASTING OUT. But, like they said, it's to late to b*tch now. (Even though they were doing it the whole time she was performing)............

Posted by: 4th | August 12, 2008 11:05 PM | Report abuse

SMACK, sfskin, here's a nifty list of some significant #12s from the HOF site:

AW, GRIESE, Herber, KELLY, Lyman, NAMATH, STAUBACH

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/jerseys-number.jsp

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 12, 2008 11:12 PM | Report abuse


[4th - the gymnastics commentators are just not good. Elfie Shlegel is insipid and Tim Dagget well I don't even know what to say.
Once again though in men's - Alex comes through on the shmommel shmorse.]

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 11:13 PM | Report abuse

AW = Bradshaw

cuttin' and pastin' ain't easy!

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 12, 2008 11:13 PM | Report abuse

did you see that?

They just showed the Chinese girls team
Then the camera went to our team.

Folks NO WAY, NO WAY.
Those girls are ages 11=14 our girls are 16-20.

But then again, when you are a totalitarian country, you do things illegally and get by with it. Wonder whose passports those really are? Or is the information merely forged?

Posted by: RedskinRay1 | August 12, 2008 11:15 PM | Report abuse

Needless to say Brady will be added to that list of #12s.

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 11:16 PM | Report abuse

Being on west coast I won't get the ladies gymnastics till later but saw prelims and have to agree.
Don't know why they have the age limit here and not say in diving which I'm watching right now. The Chinese are superb divers.
And I absolutely love that the Chinese officials are using passports as age verification. Surely no one would ever forge a passport would they!!??!!

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 11:18 PM | Report abuse

RedskinRay - as I was reading your post, that scene just came by my TV as I'm watching on the DVR, and the Americans look 5-6 years older EASILY!

The tall one (who is MAYBE 5') looks the oldest at 14, MAYBE 15.

Posted by: 4th | August 12, 2008 11:29 PM | Report abuse

Please, don't say Staubach on the blog. Please.

Posted by: Mr. Chili | August 12, 2008 11:30 PM | Report abuse

How the SJK can you do a 2 backflips on a 4" wide beam?!?!?

Posted by: 4th | August 12, 2008 11:39 PM | Report abuse

Wade on the Bubble?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rich Tandler
WarpathInsiders.com Aug 12, 2008

After spending all of the offseason being among those who were no-brainers to make the Washington Redskins’ 53-man roster, Todd Wade may not be such a sure bet.

The reserve tackle currently is sidelined with a sprained ankle that he suffered in the Hall of Fame game against the Colts. While he has been out, other players have filled the backup role quite capably. Chad Reinhardt, Andrew Crummey, and Devin Clark, in particular, looked pretty good protecting Todd Collins and Colt Brennan and paving the way for Ladell Betts and Marcus Mason.

Tackle Stephon Heyer also missed Saturday’s game with a sprained knee. Last year, he was a rookie free agent who ended up starting ahead of Wade at right tackle down the stretch as the Redskins made their run to the playoffs. That would indicate that Heyer is ahead of Wade on the depth chart.

Wade carries a base salary of $1.78 million for 2008. Now, it needs to be said that the Redskins rarely if ever make roster decisions based strictly on money, especially when such choices involve a savings of (a mere?) $1.3 million or so. However, the savings will appear on the “pro” side of the ledger when examining the pros and cons of a potential release. (There would be $1.17 million in dead cap in 2009, but that money already has been spent.)

Wade will be 32 prior to the bye week. The 30+ backup player on a team with a new head coach is an endangered species. When you add an injury into the mix it makes it that much more difficult for such a player to hang on, especially when said player has a reputation for being somewhat fragile.

All of this does not mean that Wade is as good as gone. He has 96 career starts and that is a good thing to have on your resume. While it’s true, as alluded to above, that some new coaches like to do some housecleaning and put their stamp on their new teams, that urge has to be balanced against the need to win games. Jim Zorn didn’t inherit a rebuilding project; he took over a playoff team. While he wants to build for the future, he also needs to win some games now.

So, while keeping Crummey or Clark instead of Wade might make the team better in 2010, Zorn might not be around to enjoy the fruits of that decision if he doesn’t have the Redskins in playoff contention in 2009.

The view here is that it comes down to this. If Wade can get back into the field by next week, he’ll have a chance to fight for his job. If he gets that chance, it’s better than even money that he’ll win it.

If, on the other hand, he remains sidelined until late this month and the younger, cheaper alternatives continue to play well, it’s likely that Wade will spend part of Labor Day weekend cleaning out his locker at Redskins park.

Rich Tandler blogs about the Skins at RealRedskins.com and he is the author of the upcoming book The Redskins Chronicle. You can reach Rich by email at rich.tandler+real@gmail.com


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Story URL: http://was.scout.com/2/778768.html

Posted by: Tandler to da Post | August 12, 2008 11:51 PM | Report abuse

Redskins Training Camp: August 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Keim
WarpathInsiders.com Aug 12, 2008

How is Jason Taylor doing in camp? Why was Jim Zorn getting on to Marcus Washington? How are some of the younger receivers doing? All that and more is right here.

...Can’t say it enough; Marcus Washington is having as much fun as any player out there. Blache calls this a special group because of how much fun they have together; thinks they can do a lot of great things.

...Pete Kendall shows excellent footwork in the one-on-one drills, much like Casey Rabach. Both set a strong base.

...Jason Taylor whipped Jon Jansen in the 11-on-11 portion on one run, ending up at the knees of Jason Campbell, bumping him slightly.

...Taylor beat Chris Samuels on an inside spin move in one-on-one drills.

...Washington was rebuked by Jim Zorn for tagging Campbell.

...Did not like what I saw of Justin Geisinger in the one-on-one work. Ryan Boschetti twice drove him deep into the backfield.

...Demetric Evans made a lot of noise in the first couple days of camp, but gotta say I haven’t noticed him doing much lately. He’s not a "loud" player anyway, but he’s playing like what he is: a solid backup.

...Devin Thomas had another pass skip off his hands.

...Maurice Mann beat Carlos Rogers – one of the few times Rogers has been beaten – and hauled in a deep catch from Colt Brennan, an impressive over-the-shoulder grab of a perfectly-thrown ball.

...Chris Wilson had a nice spin move in seven-on-seven work; it’s one of the few times I’ve seen him get to the QB this summer. But is he in trouble? Hard to say. He’s becoming a valuable special teamer because of his size and speed. Guys like that are hard to find on teams.


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Story URL: http://was.scout.com/2/778798.html

Posted by: Keim to da Post | August 12, 2008 11:52 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Chili, sorry about that. It was a list, I did my best to copy and paste it... should have been a little more aware of the hypersensitivity in this crowd to names like Rolaids Roger's...

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 12, 2008 11:54 PM | Report abuse

The Americans are breaking under the pressure of going against adolecent preteens.......

Posted by: 4th | August 13, 2008 12:05 AM | Report abuse

The American Gymnastic leaders/coaches still b*tching about the ages. Just go out and play hard.........

Posted by: 4th | August 13, 2008 12:11 AM | Report abuse

RedskinRay...

nice story and very happy for the lesson you learned as a kid......problem is that politeness is no longer a desired state in this society. There is no right and wrong anymore. To call someone rude would be considered bigotry and violating their rights.
******************************************

Well its a very true story.
Secondly, you are correct, our PC nation today has gone the route of no absolutes; no right, no wrong.

I've been reading the posts regarding homosexuality.

I watch people today in leadership, in the media, and they have become so scared to say anything is right or wrong today.

Ever noticed how the same people who say you have to be tolerant to homosexuality will turn around and criticize other behaviors saying they are clearly unacceptable?

That is a double standard
An intellectual dishonesty.

And instead of dealing w/ their inconsistent position, they will in turn reply "you are a bigot".
But again, do you see what has happened?
The homosexual has again declared a moral conduct charge on another, but has avoided his own hypocrisy of holding to a double standard.
He insists His conduct is beyond a moral judgment, but he in turn is altogether willing to declare his opponents conduct is immoral.

But if there are no absolutes, the homosexual cannot criticize the behaviors of anyone else.

Posted by: RedskinRay1 | August 13, 2008 12:11 AM | Report abuse

How about that Stephanie Rice!!


.......and she can swim too!

Posted by: kost52 | August 13, 2008 12:12 AM | Report abuse

Is Danny Almonte coaching the Chinese gymnasts? He's still 12, right?

Posted by: AL Zeke etc | August 13, 2008 12:14 AM | Report abuse

Kost, good of you to notice what matters. Did you check out the my rafting video?

Posted by: AL Zeke etc | August 13, 2008 12:16 AM | Report abuse

Kost - Your Aussies are great swimmers...........

Posted by: 4th | August 13, 2008 12:29 AM | Report abuse

RedskinRay1 and Anonymous, I guess you're aligning yourself with those who believe homosexuality to be a choice; who believe that choice to be immoral; who believe that it should be perfectly fine to ridicule people who make that choice; and that anyone who says otherwise is a hypocrite, or intellectually dishonest, or something like that.

Well, I'll take the bait. Here goes: I don't believe that sexual preference is a matter of choice; I don't believe that homosexuality is immoral; and I certainly don't think it's acceptable to equate homophobic remarks with remarks critical of rudeness or any other behavior that is a matter of choice. I heartily disagree that homophobic speech should be acceptable up here or anywhere. Freedom of speech doesn't cover hate speech, and homophobic speech is hate speech.

* end rant *

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 13, 2008 12:31 AM | Report abuse

AL Zeke etc - Yeah saw the clip! Good stuff!!

4th - yeah, it's where we get the majority of our medals, once the swimming events end, our tally tends to dry up.

Posted by: kost52 | August 13, 2008 12:39 AM | Report abuse

Hey Nate,
Always enjoy interacting w/ you regarding the Skins...

Hey Nate, I am not trying to be oppositional with you at all, but may I ask you a question or two?

Why is it you can call me homophobic, say I am guilty of ridicule when I make an observation, and that I am guilty of hate speech?

I am not mad at you; I've actually watched this development for the last 15 years.
The homosexual can create this homophobic charge, the bigotry charge, hate crime charge trying to develop a moral construction that says his behavior is off limits to judge.

What constitutes a hate crime?
What constitutes unfair ridicule?
What is the actual fear a homophobe possesses?

By the way, I most certainly believe there has been hateful behavior to homosexuals but merely saying it is immoral behavior is not a hate crime, nor does it reveal any fear I or millions might possess.

For example millions of us also believe theft, fraud, sexual molestation of children, lying are all also immoral behaviors, but we are not displaying a phobia in seeing them as immoral behaviors.

Thanks Nate.
HTTR

Posted by: RedskinRay1 | August 13, 2008 12:45 AM | Report abuse

Kost, I can swim, too ...

As for the HOF snubs, clearly what happened with Art Monk was nuts. Finally the madness stopped this year.

But there is one guy looking to get into a HOF that absolutely deserves it and makes Monk's path look positively easy. There is an editorial on him in today's Post. Marvin Miller into baseball's HOF. The guy changed baseball, and for that matter most every major sport in this country, in a huge way. No one in any sport deserves it more

Posted by: AL Zeke etc | August 13, 2008 12:46 AM | Report abuse

"What constitutes unfair ridicule?
What is the actual fear a homophobe possesses?"

"For example millions of us also believe theft, fraud, sexual molestation of children, lying are all also immoral behaviors"

RedskinRay, you ask the above questions. Then you effectively compare gay people/behavior to thieves, frauds, child molesters and liars.

I think you answer your own question. That comparison goes far beyond unfair ridicule, it is incredibly UGLY and staggeringly IGNORANT

Posted by: AL Zeke etc | August 13, 2008 12:53 AM | Report abuse

Ray, I appreciate what you're saying, and I understand there will never, ever be universal agreement on these matters.

But I do think that you can understand where I'm coming from -- essentially the point I was trying to make is that when I see remarks ridiculing or disparaging homosexuals, or remarks that liken homosexuality to rudeness (!), I am inclined to cry foul, for precisely the reasons I noted above. And when I see a pattern of remarks of that sort in this here blog conversation, you can count on me to jump in.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that I'm more sorry that you were upset at what I wrote -- characterizing something you wrote as homophobic hate speech, which I admit comes off as yet more self-righteous hyperbole from me the liberal nutjob deputy -- than you and Anonymous might be sorry if what you wrote above were offensive to someone whose sexual orientation you maligned. I didn't mean to attack or offend you, and I'm sorry I did... I just couldn't let those statements above go unremarked upon. And maybe since I'm a dope like that I'm just trying to open your eyes a teeny tiny little bit...

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 13, 2008 1:05 AM | Report abuse

Back to regularly scheduled jibba jabba soon, no doubt... Olympics... Hall of Fame... whether fullbacks are technically or practically running backs... whether Jason Taylor will ever walk again, much less dance... which way the bubble will break for Todd Wade, Chris Wilson, and the rest of the dudes who find themselves at the bottom of the roster... how strange it feels to be so insulated from Favre hype this week, even though we're the first team he'll face in something other than a Packer uniform since 1992 or whatever... how crappy it is that our squad (and, yes, the Colts) have to endure five preseason games... how much I'm looking forward to the season opener just a little more than three weeks away!

and etc...

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 13, 2008 1:10 AM | Report abuse

Lenovo is owned by China, right?

Posted by: 4th | August 13, 2008 1:12 AM | Report abuse

And just for the record, I thought this was a fine guest blog, succinctly stating the case for Hanburger, not that anybody up here could possibly argue against his candidacy...

I just think it's a little too soon to start beating the drum for ANY Redskin for the HOF. I think we should rest on our laurels a little bit and enjoy Art and Darrell's induction.

I just don't think the redoubtable Committee is going to induct any Redskins next season. Call it a hunch.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 13, 2008 1:13 AM | Report abuse

Also I'm reduced to begging for fantasy footballers to fill out this second RI fantasy football league... totally free, just for fun, have some yuks with some "regulars" and some "anons"... anybody out there interested, just let me know... nateinthepdx @ gmail

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 13, 2008 1:16 AM | Report abuse

sfskin is annoooooooooooooooooying!

Why do we need to know what movie you're watching? Fletch? Who cares, other than you? Blog with yourself some more, why don't ya?

COME ON!

Posted by: Anonymous | August 13, 2008 1:18 AM | Report abuse

I did not compare the behaviors at all.
I knew exactly what I was doing.

I listed some behaviors that you and all of us consider immoral behaviors, that are not called hate crimes, nor is a phobia associated w/ feeling they are immoral behaviors either.

So I ask again, why is it that the homosexual crowd thinks when their behavior is criticized it is a hate crime, a phobia?

It is an ad hominem argument.
It runs away from the evidence contained in biology, anatomy, two genders of humanity, and attacks the person instead.

So, don't tell me my position is one of ignorance. Anatomy is a staggering argument for heterosexual sex, and again, the human population would cease to exist if there were no such design of two genders and heterosexual sex.

Finally you have not provided a defense addressing biology and anatomy that I referenced in an earlier post. But you do come out with the charge of "ugly".

Now, which one avoids evidence, science and resorts to a personal "ugly" shot.

HTTR

Posted by: RedskinRay1 | August 13, 2008 1:18 AM | Report abuse

Agree to disagree, Anonymous...

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 13, 2008 1:19 AM | Report abuse

I'll also chuck some begging in for people to join an EPL Fantasy League, if you have any interest email me at kost52athotmail

Posted by: kost52 | August 13, 2008 1:20 AM | Report abuse

If I wanted to know about the Olympics, I would turn on my TV to that channel.

PLEASE. STOP. IT.


Posted by: Anonymous | August 13, 2008 1:20 AM | Report abuse

Please?

Posted by: Anonymous | August 13, 2008 1:27 AM | Report abuse

Hey Nate,
I just found your post.
Am willing to have my mind opened a bit by evidence and not political correctness.

And I hope you can understand that where I am coming from is not a position of back woods ignorance, never having read anything or listened to both sides of an argument.

I'm going to call it a night; have to work tomorrow.

And yes, I too thought the guest blog for Chris Hanburger was done quite well.

Later Nate
HTTR

Posted by: RedskinRay1 | August 13, 2008 1:28 AM | Report abuse

We have a winner!

In the battle of RedskinRay1 and Nate in the PDX, the winner is -------

RedskinRay1

Not all comments critical of homosexuality can be construed as hate speech, or as bigotry. I saw nothing in RedskinsRay's comments to draw the ire of the deputy sheriff.

Furthermore, being gay is at once a volitional choice and a function of biology. To what degree it is more of one than the other depends on the individual. At some point, however, this choice is deliberated and made. We are not animals. We have been blessed with higher thought, the ability to discriminate between many choices, and with free will, after all.

Having said that, may God bless the differences among us, for it these differences that make the tapestry of life so vibrant and enjoyable.

HTTR!

Posted by: Anonymous | August 13, 2008 1:53 AM | Report abuse

Just because it was mentioned...

I didn't think Jerry Smith was openly gay even at the end of his life, was I wrong about this? Wasn't it later, exposed? Perhaps, I remember some Wapo article in the late 80's when the climate was much more benign to write something like that then in was during the mid-seventies when Smith played.

Posted by: bangkokben | August 13, 2008 2:02 AM | Report abuse

I am oddly annoyed by WRs with low jersey #s. Pet peeve like people who drive slow in the fast lane.

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:37 PM

And I, and I, am oddly annoyed by sfskin.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 13, 2008 2:08 AM | Report abuse

Getting back to Chris Hanburger, in response to a much earlier reply stating that he played on a lot of bad teams, that argument has been made by Len Shapiro and others, but consider this: Hanburger played with the Redskins for 14 years. Eight of the teams he played on had winning records, four had losing records and two had .500 records. Five of his teams made the playoffs and one went to the Super Bowl. As for Jerry Smith, he was a great tight end, but he was only a two-time Pro Bowler and a one-time All Pro. His selection number (3) doesn't even come close to Hanburger's 14. Finally, to the person who said that Pro Bowl selections don't make you a Hall of Famer, I would say that 9 Pro Bowl selections and 5 All Pro selections make you a very strong Hall of Fame candidate.

Posted by: Tim | August 13, 2008 2:15 AM | Report abuse

It wasn't a "battle," Anonymous, and nobody "won" -- nobody's mind was changed by the little conversation we just had. You and RedskinRay both cited "proof" and "evidence" that homosexuality is a choice, from which your stance on homophobic speech naturally follows. I've never read anything that remotely resembled proof of same.

The American Psychiatric Association, an organization which I believe bases its conclusions on the available scientific research, provides what I think is a useful statement here (emphasis mine):

"There is no consensus among scientists
about the exact reasons that an individual
develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or
lesbian orientation. Although much research
has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."
www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf

I would guess that neither you nor Ray has a friend or loved one who is homosexual and who would be most affected by the casual and not-so-casual anti-gay speech that is so pervasive. I do, however, and I would be ashamed of myself if I didn't add my two cents, as respectfully as possible, to a conversation like this one. Even at the risk of being (deservedly) dismissed as the namby-pamby liberal deputy sheriff and such as.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | August 13, 2008 2:18 AM | Report abuse

Chris Hanburger acted like a loner. He was moody around the clubhouse and preferred to not socialize with teammates, and barely uttered a word to reporters, often saying, "no comment."

Hanburger was more sociable on the field, where he went out of his way to greet ball carriers -- however unceremoniously. A featherweight of a linebacker, he specialized in brutalizing foes with vicious clothesline tackles. Instead of hitting ball carriers below the waist, textbook-style, the intimidator regularly tackled high, driving his powerful forearms into players to knock them off their feet. He took no mercy, hence his nicknames "The Hammer" and "The Hangman."

"He would go the whole game and not make one tackle below the jaw line," NFL Films president Steve Sabol said. "That was a legal move in the late 1960s and early 1970s. We have shots of him decapitating Don Meredith. He would come in on a blitz and get you right around the throat. Few players are so distintive that a move or a style of tackling is named after them, like Fred "The Hammer" Williamson of the Chiefs."

First three paragraphs of the Chris Hanburger bio from Michael Richman's "The Redskin Encylopedia" used completely without any sort of permission.

Posted by: bangkokben | August 13, 2008 2:42 AM | Report abuse

I believe Hanburger should be in the Hall of Fame, but Fischer and Jacoby should get there before Hanburger.

I highly appreciate Grimm, as I highly appreciate Bostic, Dean, May, McKenzie, Lachey, Simmons, Starke, Thielemann, Walker, Warren and all the Hogs from Gibbs Part I. But Jacoby faced tougher individual tasks than Grimm, and Big Joe just used to flatten folks. I'd be happy if one Hog -- Jacoby or Grimm or Bostic -- made the Hall. All the Hogs could attend the ceremony, and it would be like the whole line made it. Which would be appropriate, because those guys were about the team, not individual glory. It's about the Redskins and that group of guys. For my money, the Hogs were the best long-term offensive line in history.

But Fischer is the man we need to focus on. The 5-foot-9, 170-pound Fischer had 56 interceptions (27 with the Redskins, the rest with the Cardinals) during his 17-year career. He also recovered 19 fumbles. Fischer was a cornerback, perhaps the toughest position to play. Because of his size and the position he played, I rate Fischer's accomplishments slightly above those of Hanburger. They both should be in Canton.

Posted by: Florida Al | August 13, 2008 3:06 AM | Report abuse

My friend has had planter fascitis for going on 6 months. It can be deceptively bad injury. Hangs around and hangs around and flares up like well something that rhymes with hammies. Like Deion's turf toe remember?

Posted by: sfskin | August 12, 2008 10:00 PM

Softer heel cups and proper stretching done daily resolves this problem quickly and keeps it from recurring. Let's see if the training staff can figure out the correct routine for this.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 13, 2008 5:25 AM | Report abuse

It makes no sense to equate a personal characteristic (voluntary or not) that impacts relations between two consenting people (in this case homosexuality) with acts that impact the community at large (theft, fraud, sexual molestation of children and lying).

If there is a religious basis to an argument against homosexuality, then that does not seem to be your issue to contest -- that can be left to a higher authority.

If it is merely distaste, then why should your preferences impact whether someone deserves or does not deserve to be in the HOF? Your likes and dislikes are no more valid than anyone else's. You can determine that you don't want to hang out with someone, but why should that mean that someone whose views are different should suffer discrimination?

It seems far fetched to argue that someone will be encouraged to be gay because they see a gay person honored by the HOF, but even if that did happen, I fail to see how that impacts your life.

Thus, kudos to those who properly called out offensive comments as offensive. Here's to hoping that antigays (there, took care of the whole phobia thing for you as it really does not matter what we call your prejudice) might realize that this country is founded on tolerance of others' differences and that these are things to be cherished rather than to be used to defame.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 13, 2008 5:28 AM | Report abuse

Love and acceptance always trumps harmful acts and hateful words. Learn to accept those who are different from you, and make the world a nicer place.

Posted by: Another view | August 13, 2008 6:13 AM | Report abuse

Wow, this blog is something...from Hall of Fame pleading to gymnastics to homosexuality. I won't touch two of those...

With regard to Hanburger, his Pro Bowl credentials would say that he's worthy. However, I haven't seen any stats to back it up. I never saw him play and can't recall ever seeing any highlights of him, even on some of the DVDs of Redskins history I have. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be in, but we'll need something more compelling than Pro Bowls to get him in there.

The sad thing is that guys like this will continue to be left out so long as the system remains the way it is. My hope is that Art Monk's induction doesn't give folks the idea that the current system works and that everything's OK because ultimately he got in. It's beyond ridiculous that a bunch of fat idiot sportswriters have the authority and the power to determine whether a man who shed blood, sweat and tears for the game of football gains entrance to the hallowed Hall of Fame. These clown writers have never put on a helmet or laced up a pair of cleats and competed against some of the world's finest athletes. Where's the fairness in crotchety old men like Dr. Z and Peter King telling men who spent decades in the game they aren't among the best at what they did? Who the hell is that twerp Adam Schefter to tell Art Monk he doesn't belong in the HoF because he never had a "signature catch", when teammates and opponents alike say Monk is a Hall of Famer in every sense of the word? It's like a high school kid telling a teacher how to do his/her job; you can tell when someone is really good or really bad, but you have no idea what goes into it and therefore have no standing to evaluate or judge.

The remedy is simple: get the biased sportswriters completely out of the equation and appoint a Hall of Fame Committee, sort of like the Supreme Court. Make it a panel of former players, coaches(preferably guys already in the HoF), and a couple of objective NFL historians (like Joe Horrigan). That's the only way this process will be fair and objective, not just another silly popularity contest like the Pro Bowl.

**End Rant**

Posted by: brownwood26 | August 13, 2008 6:27 AM | Report abuse

One Redskin that Peter King thinks is worthy of the Hall of Fame, that no one up here has ever mentioned is Bobby Beatherd.

One of the big diffences between Gibbs 1 and Gibbs 2 is that Gibbs had Beatherd the first time and he was only playing with himself the second time.

Posted by: Mull It | August 13, 2008 7:27 AM | Report abuse

I would give some more credence to that Mull It, if it wasn't for the fact that Gibbs won another Super Bowl without Beathard. Even though Beathard essentially brought much of that 1991 team together (the Hogs, Art Monk, Gibbs, etc.), Casserly did a hell of a job in his time as GM too. But if Gibbs had a quality GM with final say, this team would have been a hell of a lot better for the 2.0 tenure.

Posted by: brownwood26 | August 13, 2008 7:35 AM | Report abuse

it's like being a parent, and the baby falls the first time, and it's like, 'Oh my God.' . . . Then, by the time you have the sixth kid you realize they could bounce down the stairs, and they'll be all right."

Bounce down the stairs and be alright. That's must be one hell of a baby. LMAO

Posted by: jm220 | August 13, 2008 7:35 AM | Report abuse

Brownwood,

I agree on the HOF it is a choke, I also do not know enough about Hanburger to form an opinion.

People remember this is a Redskin blog not a political blog, if you want to take on topics such as homosexuality please do it somewhere else.

Live by my moto mind your own buisness, protect your own house, and let people live as they wish.

Now if anyone has any good Jibba-Jabba then I am all for turning the subject away from the Skins for a little while.

Posted by: kmdp4 | August 13, 2008 7:45 AM | Report abuse

Agreed kmdp4. The occasional digression is alright in my book, but to take on controversial topics that get a rise out of people like homosexuality, religion, and/or politics is a little much. I'd rather start a petition to get Dr. Z off the HoF voting!

Posted by: brownwood26 | August 13, 2008 7:55 AM | Report abuse

RedskinRay1= ignorant bigot

Posted by: jonthefisherman | August 13, 2008 8:15 AM | Report abuse

Casserly did a hell of a job in his time as GM too.

Posted by: brownwood26 | August 13, 2008 7:35 AM

I agree he did a "hell of a job" but not in the good sense. I remember one brilliant stroke: trading the pick that was Ricky Williams to New Orleans for their entire draft plus a few picks from the next draft. Then I remember some terrible blowups: Sean Gilbert, Dana Stubblefield, Michael Westbrook, Representative Heath Schuler, Desmond Howard, Andre Johnson. And wasn't it on his watch that the 'Skins hired Norv Turner?

As a scout and an assistant GM to Beatherd, Casserly had an outstanding record. On his own, I don't see it.

Posted by: Mull It | August 13, 2008 8:15 AM | Report abuse

YAY!!!!(NOT!) the return of the crappy guest blogs, booooooooo

Posted by: X-E | August 13, 2008 8:18 AM | Report abuse

As a scout and an assistant GM to Beatherd, Casserly had an outstanding record. On his own, I don't see it.

Posted by: Mull It | August 13, 2008 8:15 AM

I'll agree he's to blame for those horrible 90's teams under Norv. But wasn't he the GM starting around like '89 or '90? Shouldn't he get some love for the '91 Champs or am I missing the boat here?

Posted by: brownwood26 | August 13, 2008 8:21 AM | Report abuse

km, agreed, on all points. Never saw Hanburger play, so I really can't give my opinion, was he the dominant player at his position during his time in the league?? I'm of the belief that, the HOF is a joke somewhat because of what constitutes getting voted in, and when you have guys like Paul Zim, who are OPENLY AGAINST the Redskins because of Snyder, it makes the whole thing a farce.

As for the other stuff, I'm 100 percent certain that I'd rather not discuss things of this nature.

back to football...

Posted by: Greg | August 13, 2008 8:28 AM | Report abuse

I am a glogaphobic.

Posted by: SCSkins | August 13, 2008 8:35 AM | Report abuse

Here's Wikipedia's version of Casserly's time here:

In his highly successful 23-year career with the Washington Redskins, Casserly enjoyed his most success as an assistant to General Manger Bobby Beathard. Washington went to four Super Bowls during Casserly's tenure as assistant, winning three. In 2003, NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue appointed him to the NFL's prestigious Competition Committee for the second time (2003-06; 1996-1999).

Casserly famously started with the Redskins in 1977 as an unpaid intern under Hall of Fame coach, George Allen. Washington hired Casserly as a scout the next season and during his early years as a scout. He unearthed free agents Joe Jacoby and Jeff Bostic, who were original members of the famed "Hogs" offensive line and key components of Washington's first two Super Bowl teams. Jacoby was selected to four Pro Bowls and Bostic made one trip to Honolulu. The Redskins elevated Casserly to Assistant General Manager in 1982 and the club went on to capture its first Super Bowl. That year, Casserly also re-instituted the club's intern program, which has produced more than 20 league executives over his years in Washington and Houston.

In 1987 during the NFL players strike, Casserly put together the Redskins' "replacement" team that went 3-0 before the strike ended, including a Monday Night win against a Dallas team that featured a number of its star players. That experience was the subject of the Warner Bros. feature film, "The Replacements," that starred Keanu Reeves and Gene Hackman.

Elevated to General Manager in 1989, Casserly sustained the Redskins' history of uncovering high-quality players in the later rounds of the draft. He used a fifth-round draft pick in 1990 to select Southwest Louisiana quarterback Brian Mitchell. Washington then converted Mitchell into a running back/kick returner, where he later joined Jim Brown as the only players in NFL history to lead the league in combined net yards four times. In 1996, Casserly plucked Auburn University running back Stephen Davis in the fourth round. Davis paced the NFC in rushing in 1999 with 1,450 yards. Casserly also drafted future Pro Bowlers in wide receiver Keenan McCardell (12th round, 1991) and tight end Frank Wycheck (sixth round, 1993). During the 1999 off-season, Casserly acquired veteran quarterback Brad Johnson who responded with a Pro Bowl season.

In 1999, Sports Illustrated, Pro Football Weekly, The Sporting News and USA Today named Casserly their NFL Executive of the Year at mid-season. On draft day in 1999, Casserly acquired all of the New Orleans Saints 1999 selections, plus their first and third-round picks in 2000 by simply swapping the Redskins' fifth selection in the first round for the Saints' 12th choice. He still managed to obtain the player that Washington wanted, selecting future Pro Bowl cornerback Champ Bailey.

Casserly also made some abysmal draft picks that included QB Heath Shuler (selected with the third overall pick), WR Desmond Howard (selected with the fourth overall pick) and WR Michael Westbrook (selected with the fourth overall pick), all of whom badly failed to play up to expectations. In 1996, he also traded up to obtain the thirtieth overall pick in the first round to select OL Andre Johnson out of Penn State, who never played a single down for the Redskins.
----------------------------------

He got a Super Bowl as GM here and had a hand in the other 2 titles. I forgot this when I was talking about him earlier, but I'll have to admit that the fact that the Skins didn't parlay THE SAINTS ENTIRE DRAFT into the bedrock for a championship dynasty is unforgiveable.

Posted by: brownwood26 | August 13, 2008 8:36 AM | Report abuse

Brown, agreed on those picks, not being used in a more efficient manner. Had the Redskins not traded up to get the #2, and #3, they would have had 3 firsts, as well as the rest of their normal picks, which I believe included a 2nd, and 3rd rounders.

Oh well, can't change the past.

Posted by: Greg | August 13, 2008 8:40 AM | Report abuse

Oh well, can't change the past.

Posted by: Greg | August 13, 2008 8:40 AM

No, we can just hope that Ditka gets another job and another boner for a great college player.

Posted by: brownwood26 | August 13, 2008 8:43 AM | Report abuse

I think Chris Hanburger's biggest problem was that he was not a likeable person. He is one of the few skins players whom I did not care for. He was a good, even great, player, but there was just something off about him.

Pat Fischer, on the other hand, was just great. You had to pull for someone so small playing a big man's game and hitting hard. Fischer was 5'9" and regularly covered 6'7" Harold Carmichael of the Eagles. You would think it would be a mis-match, but it wasn't. He was a great cornerback.

Posted by: Mark in 21132 | August 13, 2008 8:47 AM | Report abuse

Please skip to the end (starting "In other news...) if you are tired of the homosexual debate. My apologies...

I feel like this is subtraction by addition here, but I can't let the homosexuality argument go. RedskinRay, your problem seems to be that gays have unfairly seized the moral authority, and you feel that you shouldn't be persecuted as a homophobe just because you have a different moral belief. You relate your moral belief to other beliefs, that theft and other crimes are bad, and you point out that there is no symmetry - you are not decried as a burglarphobe. (Aside from the point of my post, which I'll get to shortly, I think it's fair to say that we are burglarphobes, molesterphobes, etc. We all view the activities you list as immoral, but we also are all scared of them, at least to the extent that we don't want them to happen to us or our loved ones.)

The larger mistake in your argument, as someone has already pointed out, is that those "immoral" behaviors you list are crimes against others, crimes to the detriment of the community, whereas homosexuality is a personal characteristic that doesn't affect the rest of the world except by forcing us to put up with it. I found your argument offensive and, I would agree with Nate, ugly. If you don't understand why, reread your comments and replace every instance of the world "gay" or "homosexual" with something like "black" or "woman." Now, you may find it just as inappropriate to compare homophobia (and I agree that's a terrible term) with racism or sexism as I find it to compare homosexuality with burglary or molestation, but hopefully reading it that way at least helps you understand where all those PC jerkwads are coming from.

None of this gets at the larger issue, though, which is the question of homosexuality itself. To my mind, there are valid arguments to be made against homosexuality, and there are societal issues to be looked at. As someone pointed out, the sustainability of the race depends on heterosexuality, and increasing homosexuality brings ever more impending annhilation. This is a much smaller problem than other doomsday scenarios such as global warming - at least, in the face of the homosexual menace, we have the technology to procreate without actually touching our sexual counterparts. The one thing that does seem troublesome about homosexuality is the role it played in the Roman Empire. There are certainly many similarities between the western world and particularly America and the Romans, and a growing acceptance of homosexuality would seem to feed into that. For very logical reasons I absolutely do not feel that homosexuality is immoral, but is the issue of morality becoming too clouded? Does homosexuality lead to sex houses and fleeting pleasures as in ancient Rome? Do we need an illogical institution like the church to tell us what is and isn't moral just so that we can know for certain? There are certainly other things that are logically sound but thought of as immoral, such as genetic engineering infanticide of deformed babies, and does homosexuality mark a first step on that path?

My answer to these questions is "of course not," because for me, and for many of us tolerant folk, the question is simply one of two people who love each other yet aren't allowed to. People who are told that they are filthy and immoral simply for following their hearts, even though what they do hurts no one except in the most abstract and far-fetched ways are unfairly persecuted, and there's no other way to describe it. To me the question of biology or choice is irrelevant - if a gay man or woman finds a corresponding gay man or woman to marry and find comfort in, then he or she has found the most precious thing in this universe, and there is no way I could ever keep that from them.

I'm incredibly sorry for the long post on a topic that I'm sure most of you wish would just die. I'll go back to lurking now.

In other news... anybody surprised that Zorn decided to run four times at first and goal from the four? I thought this dude was a QB, and, if that had been the regular season, we would have ended up with 3 points instead of 7. Does Zorn have the balls to stand up to Bugel?

Posted by: crashinghero | August 13, 2008 8:49 AM | Report abuse

So I'm yammering to a friend on the phone last night about this here blog and how incredibly helpful it is (she isn't a football fan -- yet). She checked it out and her only question was, "Chia Pet is a doctor?"

Posted by: Cindy | August 13, 2008 8:49 AM | Report abuse

I don't believe Chia Pet is a Dr. but I do believe he plays one on TV....

Posted by: Greg | August 13, 2008 8:51 AM | Report abuse

So I'm yammering to a friend on the phone last night about this here blog and how incredibly helpful it is...

Posted by: Cindy | August 13, 2008 8:49 AM

Helpful? RI? You mean like getting Dr. Chia Pet to write a prescription for what ails you?

It's certainly helped me to rethink pressing social issues. Why in the last two hours I've changed my opinion on homosexuality (not that there's anything wrong with that) eight times.

Posted by: Mull It | August 13, 2008 8:53 AM | Report abuse

don't believe Chia Pet is a Dr. but I do believe he plays one on TV....

Posted by: Greg | August 13, 2008 8:51 AM

Greg, He plays one on the window sill.

Posted by: Mull It | August 13, 2008 8:54 AM | Report abuse

WOW, I missed a lot yesterday. Had a long drive back from NY, I saw the Oscar Myers Weenier mobil

Posted by: Alex35332 | August 13, 2008 8:56 AM | Report abuse

Crash,

I think if that is a regualr season game Portis gets the ball in on first down. I think he did not want to show a special play he has for the goal-line in the preseason. He will stand up to Buges, that will not be a problem. I saw someone say Zorn was pass happy I am not seeing that, the only West Coast team that is pass happy is the Eagles.

Posted by: kmdp4 | August 13, 2008 8:58 AM | Report abuse

It's certainly helped me to rethink pressing social issues. Why in the last two hours I've changed my opinion on homosexuality (not that there's anything wrong with that) eight times.

Posted by: Mull It | August 13, 2008 8:53 AM

That is so wrong. LMAO!

Posted by: jm220 | August 13, 2008 8:59 AM | Report abuse

Brett Farve, anyone?

Posted by: bangkokben | August 13, 2008 9:09 AM | Report abuse

beep beep

Posted by: Cindy | August 13, 2008 9:12 AM | Report abuse

Them that disparage gays are often those with latent drives they don't understand. Before criticizing others for their sexual preferences they should look into their own psyche and see if there isn't anything there to spank.

Posted by: skinfanman | August 13, 2008 9:12 AM | Report abuse

Chia Pet, are you a doctor for real? Can you give me any advice on how to heal my broken pinky finger?

Posted by: Lisa | August 13, 2008 9:13 AM | Report abuse

Hanburger or Hondog?

Posted by: Condiments | August 13, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

Nice guest blog I thought.

Very nicely put crashinghero, you should post more often!

Posted by: Redcoat | August 13, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

For example millions of us also believe theft, fraud, sexual molestation of children, lying are all also immoral behaviors, but we are not displaying a phobia in seeing them as immoral behaviors.

Thanks Nate.
HTTR

Posted by: RedskinRay1 | August 13, 2008 12:45 AM

I didn't know that Rick Santorum was a Redskins fan!

Posted by: MCG | August 13, 2008 9:46 AM | Report abuse

How about some HOF love for Wilbur Marshall. Why that guy doesn't even get a sniff is beyond me. He was great for the skins and bears. He was probably overshadowed in Chicago by all the great players they had then but was great none-the-less.

Posted by: skinswest | August 13, 2008 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Geez, I had intention of starting a social debate. The issue anon (and I do think that your statement was bigoted) is that the HOF is only supposed to consider what occurred on the field. The message sent to children is simply, you will be recognized and honored for outstanding achievement, and that is not related to any race or sexual orientation.

@Al Zeke - While I agree that each player (Mitchell, Huff and Krause) made their HOF bones with other teams, ALL were teamates at one point of Hanburger. In 67 Taylor, Mitchell and Smith were 1,2 & 3 in the NFL in pass receptions.

@ bangkokben - Perhaps "openly Gay" were the wrong words. I work with a former teammate of his, and his homosexuality was well known on the team and in the media. There was simply more discretion used with which these matters were treated during the time period. Smith wasn't closeted by any means, but he wasn't "Open" with his lifestyle either....If that makes sense.

Posted by: Keino | August 13, 2008 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Here are some stats for some of the often-mentioned HOF candidates from the Redskins: Russ Grimm was selected to the Pro Bowl 4 times and selected 1st or 2nd team All Pro 4 times for a selection total of 8. Joe Jacoby had 4 Pro Bowl and 2 All Pro selections for a total of 6. Len Hauss had 5 Pro Bowl and 4 (2nd team) All Pro selections for a total of 9. Jerry Smith had 2 Pro Bowl and 2 All Pro selections for a total of 4. Pat Fischer had 3 Pro Bowl and 3 All Pro selections for a total of 6. All of the above were great players and great Redskins, but none of them come close to Hanburger's 14 combined Pro Bowl and All Pro selections. Then again, there are NO other retired NFL players with 14 or more combined selections who are NOT in the Hall of Fame!

Posted by: Tim | August 13, 2008 12:55 PM | Report abuse

Chris Hanburger was a great Redskin player and deserving to be in the HOF. If you are an old guy like me, watching the Redskins on defense back then was very difficult because they were so bad. Running backs and receivers would get past the line of scrimmage easily and be headed downfield when suddenly, from out of nowhere, Crhis Hanburger would arrive and apply the "necktie" tackle to the unsuspecting opposing player. Hanburger was one of the few defensive players the Redskins had that opposing players respected and looked out for.

A player from the Giibs era that should be voted into the HOF in my opinion is Charles Mann. He won 3 Super Bowls with the Reskins and one with the 49ers. Since most of the defensive players on those teams don't have a chance to go to the HOF (despite the fact they deserve it), we should also rally support for Charles Mann. Maybe he is not eligible yet, but when he becomes eligible, he should receive our support. He has the credentials to be successfully voted in.

Finally, I support Russ Grimm over Jacoby. Grimm was the emotional and on-field leader of that offensive line. Have you seen the video about that team beating the Cowboys in the NFC championship game before going on to win the Super Bowl? At the end, Grimm told Theismann to forget the play Gibbs had signaled in, and they repeatedly ran the ball behind Grimm over
Randy White's sorry butt to run out the clock. Or the playoff game before that against Minnesota when the Viking players said they were going to slaughter some hogs? After the game, Grimm (face bleeding) stated something to the effect that "somebody forgot to tell the Vikings that before you slaughter hogs first you have to kill them." Grimm would be easier to vote in if he had played longer, but he was without a doubt the leader of the hogs. Another hog with a shot is Mark Schlereth. He had a longer career and he won a Super Bowl with Denver in addition to the one he won with the Redskins.

Just my humble opinion!

Posted by: rb | August 13, 2008 1:44 PM | Report abuse

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