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Guest Blog - Message Board Equity?

Got a submission from Matt for a guest blog, so here goes. He sent me a link to some articles done in Florida about how the Dolphins interact with the various passionate fans who put together websites and message boards geared to the Fins.

I know a lot of you guys frequent those types of sites when it comes to the Redskins (and pretty much any beat writer these days needs to check out the various locales as well to try to get a pulse of what the fans are thinking), so perhaps this will interest you.

Matt, who is from the site TheWarpath.net, makes a case for the Redskins embarcing all of the more prominent sites that devote hours and care to the team, and not just one. Also, as some of you may have heard, the league looks like it may be essentially taking over the maintenance of indivudual team official websites, so the there could also be ramifications from that on how clubs interact with fan sites and message boards in the future. The NFL is being militant on its rules and regulations for on-line coverage of its teams and at some point we all might have to go direct to a team's site to see any video coverage and clips of practices, etc. It's a strange new world out there.

Okay, I'll butt out now. Here's Matt's entry:

The emergence of fan run team websites over the years has presented an interesting dilemma to NFL teams. How should these fan sites be treated? Should they be treated as a legitimate organization on par with media sources? Or should they be ignored and brushed off as being rabid fans with nothing better to do with their time?

I think by now we're all aware that a couple of years ago the Redskins acquired Extremeskins.com and made them their official team message board. In the process, they effectively locked out the remaining fan sites including the likes of TheWarpath.net, TheHogs.net, and HailRedskins.com, to name a few of the major players. Whether this after effect was intentional or not by the Redskins organization, it left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of fans out there who felt snubbed by their beloved team.

Fast forward to the present. I was talking to a good friend recently who happens to be a big Miami Dolphins fan. He was asking me some questions about my site and we started discussing our individual teams' interactions with their fan sites. He started telling me how the Dolphins embrace their fan sites and even go as far has having an annual award ceremony called "The Webbies" where the best Dolphin fan sites are recognized by the team. The awards range from best overall site, to best news content, to the best message board design, etc.

Representatives from these sites are invited to the Dolphins' training facility in South Florida where they are treated to a tour of the facility and a special reception and dinner. The fan site representatives were then given tickets to the next day's game against the Titans.

That sound you just heard was my jaw hitting the floor. Needless to say I was astounded at the royal treatment the Dolphins give to their fan sites. It's really refreshing to hear that a NFL team appreciates their fan sites to that degree. I'm not sure if most people realize the time, money and effort that goes into building and maintaining these fan sites. We all have day jobs and/or school to compete with our valuable time. It's truly a labor of love when it comes to running a site.

I'm not sure if any other NFL teams roll out the red carpet in this fashion to their fan sites, but I do know the Redskins have been less than accommodating when it comes to any sites other than Extremeskins. A few years ago the Redskins were very gracious in granting several fan sites training camp credentials, and the behind the scenes access was exciting to say the least and it felt like some new ground was being broken as far as fan site access to their team was concerned. Immediately after the Redskins acquired the Extremeskins forums, the remaining fan sites weren't allowed to have training camp credentials anymore leaving these sites confused and frankly a little ticked off.

In conclusion, I'm not asking Mr. Snyder to roll out the red carpet and have their own "Webbies", but isn't there enough room to include all of the prominent Redskins fan sites at training camp? It would certainly be a nice gesture if fan sites other than Extremeskins would be allowed to attend training camp as "fan reporters" again. Then again, can Extremeskins even be labeled as a true fan site anymore since they are now officially a part of Redskins.com?

NFL teams are now realizing the importance and relevance of fan sites, I think it's time that Mr. Snyder re-evaluate the team's stance on allowing fan sites into training camp and embrace these other sites that are promoting the team with their own free time, hard work, and extreme love for the Washington Redskins.

Sincerely,
Matt Kyer
www.TheWarpath.net

By Jason La Canfora  |  June 8, 2007; 6:00 AM ET
 
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Comments

Did what's his name provide Gibbs with anote from his wife's doctor? Did the deadskins verify his story? Sources say if his wife is preggers she isnt showing!

Posted by: vaherder | June 8, 2007 6:41 AM | Report abuse

I'm all for the skins embarcing thier snafs.

Posted by: Larry BUd | June 8, 2007 7:27 AM | Report abuse

Mr Snyder has made it clear that he doesn't give a flying F*ck about his fan base, only the size of their wallets.

For example: The season ticket "waiting list" that you can buy your way to the top of no matter who's been waiting how long.

The truth is that he doesn't have appreciate the fan base because we're coked up hamsters and he knows we'll always be there.

Posted by: etrod | June 8, 2007 7:36 AM | Report abuse

HAIL TO THE REDSKINS....HAIL!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 8, 2007 7:45 AM | Report abuse

To summarize:

"I put in a ton of hours and money and this other site gets better access than me."

Sounds like sour grapes to me. The Danny is a business man - not a member of a rival message board. Instead of blaming the Redskins or trying to question the other website, why don't you just work harder and put out a better product?

Posted by: Brian | June 8, 2007 7:59 AM | Report abuse

I'm going to play Snyder's advocate, so have at me.

If this is truly a "labor of love" than why do you expect some special treatment return from it. The truth is, the team has no control over what you and other non-team sanctioned sites post. They are running a business and planning strategic ways to win football games, and they don't want Joe Shmoe with no media experience Fing up their well thought out business and marketing plan by drawing traffic away from the team's sites. Snyder is a master business man, and ultimately, that will help the team, they are just righting the ship after years and years of ineptitude.

I'm so sick of this "woe is the fans" mentality. We all know that the country eats up football like they do happy meals. The NFL and owners have us by the b*lls. But we LOVE it, I mean come on, this is the deadest part of the football "year" and JLa has 600 responses per insignificant post while he was away.

Let the man run his team, if you want to be apart of it, apply for a job. Otherwise, interact with other fans for the love of it, nobody asked for these fan sites, I'm sure they have enough in house staff to take care of the website needs. They view you as competition and frankly, you are.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 8:16 AM | Report abuse

I don't see it as "sour grapes" whatsoever. I don't think the blogger is asking for much here, if anything, he just seems to want the access to training camps like his site once had a few years ago.

You can't blame Dan Snyder for trying to generate revenue through fan sites like Extremeskins. But the sites he doesn't support, (TheWarpath, HailRedskins, etc.) are out there providing a FREE service to Redskins fans, generating excitement for the team, and even linking to sites that sell Redskins merchandise, from all of which Dan Snyder derives revenue.

The least he could do is allow more fans more access to the team, because excitement leads directly to more money being spent by the fans.

Posted by: Schneed10 | June 8, 2007 8:19 AM | Report abuse

monkalicious, I think you're WAY off base. These other fan sites aren't taking media market share away from the Redskins. They're helping to generate fan interest. I know plenty of people that have purchased Redskins merchandise (jerseys, hats, etc.) indirectly through these sites. They contribute to the buzz surrounding the team, which drives our collective annual delirium that compels us to predict 10-6 seasons every year. And that buzz compels many fans to spend more money on the team.

These sites don't take away from Snyder's revenue, they contribute to it.

Posted by: Schneed10 | June 8, 2007 8:23 AM | Report abuse

Thanks Schneed10, that's pretty much what I'm trying to say here.

It's not a case of sour grapes at all. The other fan sites don't sit around dwelling on this, we're all working very hard to produce the best possible product. We would just appreciate the opportunity to be on the same playing field like we once were, that's all.

I'm well aware it's probably not going to happen, but I thought it was worth pointing out the great relationship that other teams have with their fan sites.

And before this blows up into something it's not, I don't have a beef with Extremeskins, my beef is with the Redskins only.

Thanks for reading.

Posted by: Matt at TheWarpath.net | June 8, 2007 8:26 AM | Report abuse

God, these sites are sooooo lame. A guy who knows how to run a computer program and all of a sudden he thinks he is some kind of football authority and anyone who doesnt listen is banished!
Thehogs.net is especially gay. Man, I have never seen so many fools flock to one place.

Posted by: Barbarino | June 8, 2007 8:27 AM | Report abuse

The Redskins are the most lucrative team in the NFL, Snyder doesn't need these amateur fan based sites to help him sell the Redskins. Why would he allow that in when he can't control it. How many of you out there won't be a Redskin fan anymore because he doesn't allow access to fans that post their own websites... PAALEEASE

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 8:28 AM | Report abuse

"We would just appreciate the opportunity to be on the same playing field like we once were, that's all."

Same playing field as who? You're a fan, no more and no less. If you have a great business idea that you think The Danny would like than call up their marketing dept. and pitch the idea, otherwise do it to connect to other fans and because you like playing amateur reporter and web designer.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 8:33 AM | Report abuse

monkalicious take a deep breath bra. Go back and read the post. He stated that they had access to traing camp. He is only asking for that same access as before.

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 8:43 AM | Report abuse

"Same playing field as who? You're a fan, no more and no less."

Matt is just a fan. But, the reps that TheWarpath had sent to training camp in the past were not. They were legitimate writers who donated their time to go to training camp and write stories and conduct interviews. Same goes for the other fan boards out there.

I don't have any problem with the Skins saying 'No fan sites allowed.', but it becomes a problem when they say 'Some fan sites allowed'.

Also, the problem here is not Dan Snyder. It's Karl Swanson.

Posted by: Just A Fan | June 8, 2007 8:49 AM | Report abuse

It sounds like to me that the only reason they had access before was because Snyder wanted to figure out which one to buy. They were feeling out this whole fan based website thing. Their marketing department prob met and met about it to develop their plan, and their plan was to move forward with the one they liked the best and cut out the rest. It doesn't seem like smart business to me to allow access to fans that then publish what they see on their websites. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. And do we look at the Dolphins as the model organization or business in this league, I think not. Obviously from a business standpoint, Snyder is doing it right. HAIL

ps. all in the name of good debate, I am breathing fine...thanks.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 8:49 AM | Report abuse

Off topic -- How long after the new Cowboys' stadium opens do you think it will take the Danny will start lobbying for a new field here? If he hasn't already.

Posted by: etrod | June 8, 2007 8:55 AM | Report abuse

ps. all in the name of good debate, I am breathing fine...thanks.

Good to know that you are. LMGO

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 8:55 AM | Report abuse

Seems that since the Skins took over Extremeskins, they've stopped making upgrades to the place.

I don't know if its because they were told to hold tight, or they are just lazy. But its gone from these cool upgrades that users enjoy, to moderators bragging about all the access they get now they are owned by the Skins.

You'd think they would have created chat rooms, transcripts from Redskins Lunch, profession avatars and sigs, etc.

These team is worth over a billion and its basically leaning on non-professionals to spruce up the place.

Maybe that's why they lost one of their founders.

Posted by: Extreme What? | June 8, 2007 9:00 AM | Report abuse

"It sounds like to me that the only reason they had access before was because Snyder wanted to figure out which one to buy."

Actually, I believe in the beginning there was only one fan site that requested, and was granted, media creds. Then the other sites (ES included) followed suit over the next few years. So, it wasn't an intentional tryout type deal.

Posted by: Just A Fan | June 8, 2007 9:01 AM | Report abuse

"It sounds like to me that the only reason they had access before was because Snyder wanted to figure out which one to buy. They were feeling out this whole fan based website thing."

monkalicious, perhaps that was the case, but then my gripe is the Redskins failed to communicate that properly to us. We basically had the door slammed shut with no explanation.

Posted by: Matt at TheWarpath.net | June 8, 2007 9:02 AM | Report abuse

monkalicious and common sense are right - the Redskins allowed message boards access while they were deciding which board they wanted to develop a relationship with. Once they made their selection, everything went back to the way it was.

Pepsi doesn't cry if the stadium sells Coke, so why should this turn into a spilled milk moment for other message boards? It's not special treatment, it's a business decision. The Redskins made their choice - deal with it.

If it's really that unfair, then go blog about the Caps. They need all the attention they can get and you might even get some of that "special attention" you crave for focusing on the DC's forgotten stepson.

Posted by: Brian | June 8, 2007 9:02 AM | Report abuse

Interesting post, and thanks for putting it up.

There are two diametrically opposed business models -- Miami's and Washington's. Both are run by shrewd businessmen trying to mazimize the value of their franchises. It's hard to imagine that they can both be right, and on the face of it I can't see any reason to pick one over the other. Over time, one will prove more successful than the other and all teams will migrate to it.

But, it sure brings out all the Snyder hate, doesn't it? What I want to know is whether Dan Snyder is the devil, himself, or is merely posessed by the devil?

Posted by: KK | June 8, 2007 9:03 AM | Report abuse

Matt I say go to the park and just yell. Panties!

LOL

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 9:03 AM | Report abuse

OK, well nobody is nominating Snyder (or Swanson) for the congeniality award.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 9:05 AM | Report abuse

I think you should feel fortunate that you ever had access in the first place. It does come off like sour grapes that you no longer have access and extremeskins does.

Posted by: Rusty | June 8, 2007 9:09 AM | Report abuse

I don't think any fan site should have this type of access. It reminds me too much of that circus where they charged for training camp.

The more secret everything is at the Park, the better.

Yeah, maybe we won't get the inside scoop on what Larry was eating for lunch today because an ES mod saw him in the hallway. But I think its better for the team that was pretty rough last year, to be as far under the radar as possible.

Posted by: Optimus Prime | June 8, 2007 9:12 AM | Report abuse

Rusty, as I said we've moved on and this really isn't a case of sour grapes. When I heard about how the Dolphins treat their fan sites, it just made me wonder if the Skins could be handling things better, that's all. Lord knows they haven't exactly made the best decisions when it comes to fan relations over the years.

Posted by: Matt at TheWarpath.net | June 8, 2007 9:13 AM | Report abuse

I dunno. I'm pleased with the status quo. I found a fan site that I like. Bunch of bloggers with the attention span of a hamster on coke. Plus now we got The Rooster among us (not sure whether he's lurking or using a different name). My only thought is that the new powers-that-be in the NFL are starting to act with increasingly fascist ideas of order, control, and money grubbery. I'll stick with Big Media for the time being.

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 9:14 AM | Report abuse

Blog Legitimacy. Oxymoronic, methinks.

Posted by: Larry Bud | June 8, 2007 9:23 AM | Report abuse

Hey sween, which site id the one you like?

Oh, right, I forgot. Wanna ride bikes?

Posted by: Larry Bud | June 8, 2007 9:24 AM | Report abuse

"Snyder doesn't need these amateur fan based sites to help him sell the Redskins"

Tell that to all the yellow seats at FedEx.

Posted by: Joe in Raleigh | June 8, 2007 9:31 AM | Report abuse

Optimus Prime

Autobots transform and roll out. LMGO! I can't wait until the movie comes out.

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 9:35 AM | Report abuse

Monkaliscioius stirring the pot this AM, and I don't mean the one for his wake and bake....

He makes good points. Fan sites are lame anyway, DC Sweeny is right I like it here with an independent media source that lets fans converse, that seems like the best model: access, debate, fan contributions, no team control....etc....

This whole thing is a straw man, the real meat in the Post is by JLC talkin about the media control by the NFL.....that is scary, worth debating and I would love more reporting on that...

Plus Matt can't you just send a "fan" undercover to training camp and make reports???

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 9:35 AM | Report abuse

puff puff give Larry, lets go! pass it on.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 9:39 AM | Report abuse

"It doesn't seem like smart business to me to allow access to fans that then publish what they see on their websites. That sounds like a recipe for disaster." - monkalicious

The same can be said for newspapers, radio, and TV. Yet you can't choose one paper or one channel to talk to. Fan websites are new media, smart guy. Welcome to the 90s.

Posted by: Joe in Raleigh | June 8, 2007 9:42 AM | Report abuse

Solid blog effort, Matt. Thanks.

I like fan sites. Usually they're a good read when news is slow but you still need a Redskins fix. Tandler is good but he's been MIA recently.

Posted by: Joe in Raleigh | June 8, 2007 9:50 AM | Report abuse

OK, that was the second idiotic post by Joe in Raleigh so I guess I have to respond. Newspapers, radio and TV are run by professionals. Professionals that have experience in media and reporting news. We don't give access to whatever in this country to any dork that can publish a website. Take this Springs thing for example. JLC recognizes the value of keeping that private where maybe some donk running around thinking he is a reporter completely humiliates Springs who then gets pissed at the Redskins for letting this donk in.

"Tell that to all the yellow seats at FedEx."

Are you even a skins fan? The stadium is sold out for decades. Do you honestly think that these fan sites sell the corporate seats in the stadium...GET REAL

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 9:51 AM | Report abuse

Matt, thanks for the guest post. This is a good one, good discussion starter.

Whenever I read a story like this -- training camp access stripped from all fan sites except the one the Redskins bought -- I file it under "missed opportunity for Danny to look like anything but a money-grubbing louse." Which is a gigantic file. Swanson, shmonson, the buck stops with Snyder. He always seems to come up with the wrong answer, even when faced with a no-brainer like this one.

Give the fan sites media access to training camp, you dope!

chris Larry, completely agree that J-La's intriguing note about the new totalitarian age of the NFL under the Ggooddell regime. Lighten up, you dope!

5 TCCLs to coffee.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 9:51 AM | Report abuse

Look I think some of you guys are mistaking a request of better treatment for a social movement. No one is advocating every site have equal access to the team and communism. We all still love the free market system, but I think the point behind Matt's comment is other teams treat fansites, and fans better. I think we cannot run away from that. I am sure the Fins have an official message board too, but their unofficial ones are being honored too, which is great. Also all you folk that are running to Danny Boy's knees are forgetting he is the one who made you all bend over and PAY for training camp several years back. Snyder has not been known for treated the average Skins fan to well.

Posted by: hooskins | June 8, 2007 9:51 AM | Report abuse

"The same can be said for newspapers, radio, and TV. Yet you can't choose one paper or one channel to talk to. Fan websites are new media, smart guy. Welcome to the 90s." - Joe in Raleigh

Actually, the Redskins have tried to get a handle on that too. Tired of what they considered biased reporting from some of the local beat guys, they now post all videos on Redskins.com to ensure that their fans get the "complete story."

Posted by: Brian | June 8, 2007 9:52 AM | Report abuse

And I forgot: Panties!

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 9:53 AM | Report abuse

monkalicious, I have a question. Are you involved with the Redskins organization and/or a member of ExtremeSkins? You are the only one who is getting really agressive and offended while people are trying to explain something simple.

Posted by: hooskins | June 8, 2007 9:55 AM | Report abuse

Hey Nate, everyone at work loves the Reaper shirt. I think there was even a punter who ran for the hills when he saw the shirt.

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 9:56 AM | Report abuse

"Are you even a skins fan? The stadium is sold out for decades. Do you honestly think that these fan sites sell the corporate seats in the stadium...GET REAL"

General Admission is sold out for decades. Those yellow seats aren't general admission (and they're not sold out). :)

Posted by: Just A Fan | June 8, 2007 9:59 AM | Report abuse

'Yet you can't choose one paper or one channel to talk to'

I seem to remember Channel 9 having to set up shop outside of Redskins park a few years back because they wouldn't sign a contract with the skins.

Posted by: etrod | June 8, 2007 10:00 AM | Report abuse

"Actually, the Redskins have tried to get a handle on that too. Tired of what they considered biased reporting from some of the local beat guys, they now post all videos on Redskins.com to ensure that their fans get the "complete story.""-Brian

I agree with you, and this is very sad. Nothing is wrong with the team having their own access to the means of reporting to the fan, but without local beat writers then there becomes no check at all.

Personally, even beat writers are not to harsh because they develop a personal and deep relationship with the particular beat they are assigned to. They become close to the people they are covering and usually have second thoughts about publishing highly critical stuff(of course our boy JLC doesn't cave in like that!). I don't see a huge threat in beat writers to any particular team.

Posted by: hooskins | June 8, 2007 10:01 AM | Report abuse

hooskins: Post another idiotic reply and I will be forced to reply to you too.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 10:02 AM | Report abuse

Monkaliscios isnt getting agressive he's repping a side of the debate. He stated in his first post that he was arguing the other side. I am as "new media" as you can get, but lets not say nerd fansites being barred from which by nature (NFL Teams) is a closed door bunker mentality is somehow the poster boys for media paradigm shifts. Seems to me monakiscious was simply stating what the reasoning was behind Snyder's actions.

AGAIN...the real issue is team/league sponsored/paid for/written news which is obviously where the league is going. They would like nothing better than a Pravada like situation. Fan sites that dork out and give hand jobs to teams will be incorporated into that model (which sounds like what Matt wants...) and they will be part of the problem not the solution.

Thats why the Post/JLcA embracing new media models to cover sports is the best answer to the "message control" mania of the NFL. Now if other fans wanted to worry less about their "fan rankings" and how decked out their fan avatars are and actually become citizen journalists who dole praise and critism than that can be healthy. Much like we do in the comments section here....

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 10:06 AM | Report abuse

monkalicious, your namesake would not be proud of the way you're conducting yourself up here today. Come on, buddy, spirited but friendly debate is the order of the day!

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 10:07 AM | Report abuse

"chris Larry, completely agree that J-La's intriguing note about the new totalitarian age of the NFL under the Ggooddell regime. Lighten up, you dope!

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 09:51 AM"

Nate and cL have a point. We all should lighten up our dope.

I admit that I haven't read all of the preceding ranting/raving closely, but it seems beyond obvious that The Owner is in this venture as a rational economic actor. Fortunately, the prevailing cultural norms resist the excesses associated with rational economics (read: greed), but the market still seems to operate essentially freely. I read a turn of phrase once -- that "information wants to be free" -- and personally have always struggled with the concept of "intellectual property," esp. when the "owner" is not a real person, but rather a corporation. The structure and sole purpose of a corporation is to generate revenue, not to have an "intellect." If a corporation were a real person, it would be a psychopath.

Where am I going with this? See the deep end ... and I'm off.

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 10:11 AM | Report abuse

Comments seem split on whether the Danny should play nice or try to starve any non-controlled media out of business. Media control on the order Mr. Snyder aspires to is the perogative of royalty and dictators. It is necessary to them to present an always positive image of a not always positive situation.

Mr. Snyder is a good businessman - look at the team value. He is a genius level marketeer - he has won every off-season's press except for the year that the 'Skins went to the playoffs (is there a conection between focusing on football objectives at the expense of marketing objectives and winning?). He is also in danger of appearing arrogant with an inferior product.

Why not let the fans decide? How many members does a site have, and what are their usage stastics? This will block out the personal sites without sacrificing those sites that really are effective fan-based media.

Personally I don't use extremeskins because it is infrequently updated and more smoke and mirrors than fact. Above all it is a forum for disseminating image without real interaction with the members. So there is room for both extremeskins and the other significant fan sites. If the fan wants the party line without interchange go to extremeskins. If the fan wants interchange with other fans about the team go to other sites such as hailredskins, thehogs.net, etc. These sites appeal to a different breed of fan, and Mr. Snyder would be well advised to recognize them. Above all it would remove the image that Mr. Snyder seems intent on controlling all access media to 'Skins media with the eventual objective of charging for the right to access.

As I learned as part of a large federal study the customer can be abused in the short term with short term gains, but long term the customer will change his habits and will not return even when there are significant inducements. The automobile industry is an example, twice, first on small cars and second on gas guzzlers. Look at the stats. From dominating the American market the big 3 are now running in 2nd place on almost all critical market aspects.

Posted by: Hr fan | June 8, 2007 10:12 AM | Report abuse

"that was the second idiotic post by Joe in Raleigh"

wrong again. I've posted a lot more than twice.

Posted by: Joe in Raleigh | June 8, 2007 10:15 AM | Report abuse

hooskins,

I agree with 99% of what you're saying. But I do take issue with your claim that beat writers won't do their job because they might have a personal relationship with the team and/or players. Can it happen? Sure. But more times than not that journalist is going to report what's going on - good, bad, or ugly.

While we're on the subject - more times than not a beat writer is going to piss off the front office, not a player (unless they're really going out of their way to hammer an individual). Just look at the sometimes hostile relationship between the Redskins and the Washington Post over the last couple of years.

Posted by: Brian | June 8, 2007 10:16 AM | Report abuse

sween, a corporation may not have an intellect, but it sure as hell can have a heart.

Not to stretch this issue of training camp access for free fan sites too far, but the Skins under Snyder often seem to be lacking a discernible heart.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 10:16 AM | Report abuse

"hooskins: Post another idiotic reply and I will be forced to reply to you too."-monkalicious

Ok go for it. Am I suppose to be scared of you or something? I think you are way off base and just bashing people for no reason, but if you have an intelligent response to my 1st post go for it.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 8, 2007 10:17 AM | Report abuse

Brian,

I agree with you there as well, at least in regards to the Post. I am sure we are both specifically referring to JLC's article about the defense and all those issues.

I am just speaking from what I am personally studied of the media. Most people know quite a bit about media and beat reporting in general have voiced this as a concern to beat reporting. Of course in the end the beat reporter is getting his paycheck from a news agency, but there is more of a tendency to think and try to maintain the relationship with the particular organization you are writing about.

A reporter who does not build connections and a network with whatever organization, should and would feel less obliged to paint a better picture of it. That is all I am saying.

Anyways I rather comment more on my 1st post and any intelligent responses people have to that.

Posted by: hooskins | June 8, 2007 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Come on Nate, I'm just trying to argue (and have fun with) the other side. Read the posts, I didn't get personal first. To call me out as a member of the Org is rediculous.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 10:26 AM | Report abuse

"but lets not say nerd fansites being barred from which by nature (NFL Teams) is a closed door bunker mentality is somehow the poster boys for media paradigm shifts."

What does this mean? Is this English?

Are you calling Matt a nerd because he writes for a sports website? Let's leave the name-calling to George Allen.

The "closed door bunker mentality" runs in opposition to the anti-trust exemption that the NFL enjoys. Therein lies the problem.

Posted by: Joe in Raleigh | June 8, 2007 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Hr fan,

I love your post, I agree with pretty much what you are saying. I don't think anyone can question Danny as being a good business man, just look at the wealth he has acquired at this young age.

At the same time, like you should said, he should recognize these alternate "breed" of fans who still love the Redskins passionately. Also thanks for citing that study. Assuming it is true, it always helps to back up your position.

Posted by: hooskins | June 8, 2007 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Alot of emotion on a Friday morning!

Its good to be alive.

Posted by: Cheyenne, WY | June 8, 2007 10:28 AM | Report abuse

monkalicious, you got me. All fired up this morning for some reason. Happy Friday.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 10:29 AM | Report abuse

Cheyenne, more than alive -- alive, paying the mortgage, and STILL being able to monitor and post here on the RI blog.

I believe this is what Newport cigarette ads used to describe as "Alive with Pleasure!"

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 10:32 AM | Report abuse

jm220, really glad you are enjoying the tee shirt and using it to intimidate your colleagues.

All praise to Bucktown Skins Fan (wherever he may be) for those terrific shirt designs.

cafepress.com/redskinsinsider

Our Aussie friend kost52 has bought not one but TWO tee shirts. Repping it to death on the other side of the planet.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 10:33 AM | Report abuse

It was thirty degrees here yesterday and snowed for a couple of minutes, made it hard to be in a good mood.

Hopefully this does not come across as rude, but this kind of a weird topic to generate so much emotion. What I mean is I guess I never though to much about the topic or I would of known how important it was for some of the fans.

Posted by: Cheyenne, WY | June 8, 2007 10:35 AM | Report abuse

" admit that I haven't read all of the preceding ranting/raving closely, but it seems beyond obvious that The Owner is in this venture as a rational economic actor. Fortunately, the prevailing cultural norms resist the excesses associated with rational economics (read: greed), but the market still seems to operate essentially freely. I read a turn of phrase once -- that "information wants to be free" -- and personally have always struggled with the concept of "intellectual property," esp. when the "owner" is not a real person, but rather a corporation. The structure and sole purpose of a corporation is to generate revenue, not to have an "intellect." If a corporation were a real person, it would be a psychopath."
-sween

Man, I'm actually not smoking anything right now. But if I were, this would blow my freakin mind, dude.

Corporations can, do and should own intellectual property. What would be the point of patenting or trademarking anything if a business couldn't claim intellectual property rights. That's what they pay their R&D people for.

The natural reaction to corporations like Redskins Inc. being over protective of their propoerty would be for the consumer to go elsewhere. We know that won't happen in this case, so we who prop up this coporate regime really have no right to complain when it comes to collect it's due.

Posted by: Larry Bud | June 8, 2007 10:38 AM | Report abuse

If anything I'm glad this inspired some spirited debate, after all isn't that what we're here for?

I'd like to thanks JLC for posting this and doing such a great job with this blog. It's really a great resource for the fans.

Posted by: Matt at TheWarpath.net | June 8, 2007 10:43 AM | Report abuse

Sorry I forgot a few commas Joe in Raleigh....I was making broader points (maybe badly) about the new media universe, not bashing Matt. Jeez...

Hows this for Enhlish:

F Joe in Raleigh!

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 10:50 AM | Report abuse

If anything I'm glad this inspired some spirited debate, after all isn't that what we're here for?

Posted by: Matt at TheWarpath.net | June 8, 2007 10:43 AM

Enjoy it now. If Mr Goodell has his way, we won't be engaging in these much longer.

Posted by: etrod | June 8, 2007 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Larry Bud, sorry about that (i.e., the mind blowing). I'm not denying that corporations do own intellectual property. I'm not sure you've convinced me they should (as opposed to, for example, the live persons who actually generated the intellectual property). I love, for example, what you see when you click the blue hyperlinked "rules" of WaPo blogs (see just above the box where you write a post). The first five rules essentially say you are on your own, WaPo has no responsibility/liability, whatever. Then the LAST one (which I mostly love by its proximity to the first five) reads:

6. For any content that you post, you hereby grant to washingtonpost.com the royalty-free, irrevocable, perpetual, exclusive and fully sublicensable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such content in whole or in part, world-wide and to incorporate it in other works, in any form, media or technology now known or later developed.

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 11:00 AM | Report abuse

"Hows this for Enhlish:
F Joe in Raleigh!"

Wonderful. And I thought you had to go to ExtremeSkins for this kind of discourse. Well played, chris larry.

Posted by: Joe in Raleigh | June 8, 2007 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Extremeskins has some nice training camp reports, but other than that it's become a joke. The moderator Art is in Danny's pocket -- so much that if a poster becomes known for criticizing Danny and his BFF Vinny Cerrato, Art will find a reason to ban that poster. As a result, the majority of smart and objective fans have either left the board or have been kicked off it, leaving it full of homers, many of them so stupid it's a wonder they can log on to a website.

Posted by: The Skins ruined ES | June 8, 2007 11:08 AM | Report abuse

sween,

I've read that rule and it is especially big brotherish, but they do own the site, all of this is published under their banner and so on...

Now if you wanted to establish DCSWEEN'S HOUSE O'SKINS KNOWLEDGE you could create the usership rules.

Personally, I think you should make the rule that if you publish only with your right hand then you can maintain your intellectual property.

Posted by: Larry Bud | June 8, 2007 11:15 AM | Report abuse

I would go to that site.

Posted by: Cheyenne, WY | June 8, 2007 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Hey, don't forget, without that rule the WashPo couldn't print "Blog of the Day" or whatever that feature is called.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Oh Joe in Raleigh...ouch....puleeze I am sorta known as the F guy, and when you bash my grammer instead of my ideas (which you misread anyway) I will bring the appropriate response...

Seems like to me you have been the cranky one up here today anyway...

My comment about the Bunker mentality of NFL teams is that since the 50's they have done their best to keep media out. So these new moves aren't out of step with the historical record, not saying I agree just that its been common place....locking down training camps, coach double speak, banning news organizations...this goes back to Lombardi...that was simply my point...

Jeez.....

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 11:29 AM | Report abuse

Matt,

I enjoyed the post, I didn't think it was sour grapes at all, and thank you. I feel most are arguing for the sake of doing so here, as fans would overwhelmingly support more access than less. The question is whether that would make Dan Snyder happy.

But none of us are Dan Snyder and most of us are fans, right?

Matt, keep up the good work at Warpath.

Posted by: Skin Patrol | June 8, 2007 11:40 AM | Report abuse

I think I am on the same train as Chris Larry. If the team owns the folks that are reporting on the camps, they can control what they report. If Jason Cambpell is rubbing his shoulder after every pass, Im not sure I would like other teams knowing that.

There is a certain aspect of secrecy around every minicamp. In the era of 24 hour news, its hard to keep a secret.

Posted by: Cheyenne, WY | June 8, 2007 11:43 AM | Report abuse

F CL! You girlieboy. lol

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 11:43 AM | Report abuse

I would prob. put money down that monkalicious is that d-bag Art from extremeskins

Posted by: escobar1 | June 8, 2007 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Chris Larry wears panties

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 11:46 AM | Report abuse

I know for fact that Monkaliscious is not Art from ES...

Jeesh people are you that afraid of some debate?!?!?!

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 11:46 AM | Report abuse

It may have already been pointed out but there is a good chance that Matt has his arrows pointed in the wrong direction. Once the Skins decided to go with the ES site the ES folks could have asked for exclusivity. Please dont be so naive to think Snyder would waste his time at this level. It was probably a throwaway point of negotiation for the organization and a big win for ES. Plus the Skins have far more important issues than if a couple of guys covering the team for a website get in. The Post the Times ESPN Fox the Skins very comprehensive site. I am pretty sure the Redskins feel comfortable that their team is properly represented

Posted by: nagonnaworkhereanymore | June 8, 2007 11:48 AM | Report abuse

By the way this "I dont agree, they most be from ES" is very Extreme Skins......

JM220 snorts pork

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 11:50 AM | Report abuse

chris larry-

What is the debate? Will you clarify monkalicious' argument? From what I can tell he is saying that Dan Snyder has no incentive to help out MBs like the Warpath. That's probably a valid point, given the team is very successful financially.

From a FAN's perspective, though, wouldn't you want it to be more inclusive? Choice benefits the consumer and the more voices you have reporting on what is going on, the greater the likelihood that you will find writing, perspective, commentary, and analysis that entertains you.

I like Extreme Skins. I like Redskins Insider. I like Warpath. Let them all go to training camp and I can evaluate which product is the best. That may not be in Dan Snyder's best interest, but it is certainly in mine.

Wouldn't you agree?

Posted by: Skin Patrol | June 8, 2007 11:52 AM | Report abuse

I think HTS became Comcast SportsNet a few years back. Still on the air, still doing their thing. And they have Strawberry Shortcake. (Old RI blog reference.)

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 10:21 AM

Nate- Saw her on air a few days ago. Unfortunately, now better described as Vanilla with a tinge of Strawberry. Who thought that would be a good look?

Posted by: 4-12 | June 8, 2007 11:52 AM | Report abuse

nagonna, Well said! So why open yourself up to amateur reporting, possible rumor flying etc. That's all I'm saying.

Matt, I respect what you do. Thanks for the guest post, I think it's cool your involved here and run your own site. Props.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Wow, everyone's really cranky today. Still, it's nice that the Dolphins have got SOMEthing right for once. Now if only we could stop stinking the place up on the field...

Posted by: Redcoat | June 8, 2007 11:56 AM | Report abuse

CL wears stiletto

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 12:00 PM | Report abuse

So what's wrong with stilettos? :)

Posted by: Lisa | June 8, 2007 12:04 PM | Report abuse

Nothing Lisa if you are a woman. CL also wears a push up. LOL

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Whats wrong with stilettos and a push up?

Posted by: Elton John | June 8, 2007 12:08 PM | Report abuse

I, as a fan, personally do not want amateur reporters walking around redskins park during training camp or whatever stirring up trouble, not getting all the facts and getting in the way of the professionals. Rumors and disheartened players can truly ruin a season.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 12:09 PM | Report abuse

CL is the other white meat

Posted by: Babe | June 8, 2007 12:16 PM | Report abuse

monkalicious-

"I, as a fan, personally do not want amateur reporters walking around redskins park during training camp or whatever stirring up trouble, not getting all the facts and getting in the way of the professionals. Rumors and disheartened players can truly ruin a season."

So are you against Extreme Skins at training camp as well?

Again, the issue is that the Redskins have chosen one "amateur" reporting entity over another. That is there right, the question is whether we'd prefer things be different.

Given the popularity of both Warpath and Extreme Skins, I would wager that you are in an extreme minority among fans who wants less access rather than more.

I also think your concern is overstated. Extreme Skins has a reporter at OTAs, he gets interviews with the team, he is a fan, nothing that he does or has done has stirred up trouble, gotten in the way of professionals, or rumor mongered. Unless you have reason otherwise, why presume that Warpath would be any different?

I'm not saying you are wrong to have your opinion, I just respectfully disagree. I want to read as much about my beloved Redskins as possible, which is why I love Redskins Insider/Warpath/ES so much.

Posted by: Skin Patrol | June 8, 2007 12:18 PM | Report abuse

One is certainly easier to control than 3 or more. And ES is controlled by the team at this point. Its not just about letting him into redskins park. Opening up the doors to whatever fan has a website is different and much riskier than allowing one and controlling it.

I don't care if Im the only donk on this site that believes what I am saying. It doesn't mean I can't present that side and start a debate. What the hell do we have to talk about, Sean Springs and his personal life... Have at it Lisa.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 8, 2007 12:24 PM | Report abuse

Matt,
Great guest blog, but the lead is buried.

From a marketing standpoint this is all about controlling the message. The NFL controlling team sites and Danny controlling ES. This is embedded journalism on the intrawebs (remember embedded journalist?).

Snyder the businessman is not interested in a revenue stream from ES. Warpath and others like it are labors of love, they're not throwing off wads of cash, right.

Snyder bought ES because it was cheaper and easier to buy the biggest fan site than build a new "official site."

The smart move would be to follow the Miami model and make the the greatest number of fans (clients) happy, after all, we're the ones who actually bankroll his operation. Will Danny realize this...who knows? Does Danny know how to siphon cash? Yes. Can he benefit from knowing what's on our minds? YES. Maybe this is the real play, using the site to know his market.

Build a better mouse trap, keep things open, be critical, THINK.

I tried to visit ES, it was a cluttered mess, IMO.


Posted by: Stumped | June 8, 2007 12:27 PM | Report abuse

"I, as a fan, personally do not want amateur reporters walking around redskins park during training camp or whatever stirring up trouble, not getting all the facts and getting in the way of the professionals." - monkalicious

So you think that the fans should be protected from themselves by tightly controlling information? Wow, that's an astonishingly paternalistic take on this debate. I prefer to have as many sources as possible feeding me information in the hope that taking them as a whole, I will get a better picture of the "real deal" than when access is tightly controlled.

Posted by: Dylan | June 8, 2007 12:32 PM | Report abuse

I read that we picked up Butler,if he stays healthy is he better than "carlost another pick Rodgers."

Posted by: conerback help? | June 8, 2007 12:33 PM | Report abuse

1) Which team has the best offense?


74.7% Dallas

12.8% Philadelphia

8.1% Washington

4.5% N.Y. Giants

2) Which team has the best defense?


74.5% Dallas

12.8% Philadelphia

9.0% Washington

3.7% N.Y. Giants

3) Which team will win the division?


74.3% Dallas

12.5% Philadelphia

8.5% Washington

4.7% N.Y. Giants

Total Votes: 4,669


We need all of youse guys to log on and defeat dem cowgirl fans in voting!

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=2960

Posted by: 4th | June 8, 2007 12:33 PM | Report abuse

Look at extremeskins and how the mods (especially Art "the A**hole") control information and message board content. They clamp down on anyone doesn't tow the company line. That's reason enough to bashing the team for screwing their most hard-corse fans.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 8, 2007 12:35 PM | Report abuse

Very simply, greater access means better coverage. Frankly, some of these other web sites provide better information than ExtremeSkins. That's why I visit them all.

Posted by: TahoeSkin | June 8, 2007 12:36 PM | Report abuse

monkalicious-

"One is certainly easier to control than 3 or more. And ES is controlled by the team at this point. Its not just about letting him into redskins park. Opening up the doors to whatever fan has a website is different and much riskier than allowing one and controlling it."

I doubt that letting Warpath in is tantamount to letting "whatever fan has a website" and we know the team agrees, given that at some point they included Warpath in that coverage. Hence the confusion -- at some point the Redskins organization evaluated Warpath and decided they were good enough to include. Something unrelated to Warpath happened and suddenly they aren't included. We should reasonably wonder why that is the case.

Are you familiar with Warpath? There are quality writers producing worthwhile content at that website, and I think said content speaks for itself. The team once included it and I see no reason why they couldn't now, given that the quality of the product hasn't declined. If anything, Warpath has improved. No one has suggestion 100% inclusion of every blogger or MB owner on the tubenets, rather that the Redskins include one of a handful of premier websites (that they happen to have once deemed worthwhile already).

"I don't care if Im the only donk on this site that believes what I am saying. It doesn't mean I can't present that side and start a debate. What the hell do we have to talk about, Sean Springs and his personal life... Have at it Lisa."

Who said you didn't/couldn't/shouldn't present your point of view? I'm not trying to repress you, dude.

Posted by: Skin Patrol | June 8, 2007 12:37 PM | Report abuse

I'd also visit a SweenSite.

Posted by: D7 | June 8, 2007 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Man, been on the VaK for a few days- catching up is tough when Jasno's returned to his standard Mojo Pin form. Mmmmmm, real content.

Posted by: D7 | June 8, 2007 12:51 PM | Report abuse

D7,

I love it when people, such as yourself, visit this blog and complain. If you don't like it, don't read it and stick with extremeskins.

Posted by: Dylan | June 8, 2007 12:57 PM | Report abuse

The Rule commented on as "big brotherish" earlier is a standard contract rule that every writer agrees to, in one degree or another, when allowing a periodical to publish.

In the mean time, I cna't figure out what any of this "my blog" whining has to do with a winning or losing football team and how we fans think it ought to be populated with players and coaches. Let's not forget that many of these sites are businesses that sell advertising. I couldn't care less about a sites ability to make a profit.

It ain't the sites that make us love, or not, a football team. I know why i love the 'skins, genetics. It's a way for me to connect with my pop who was a lifelong 'skins fan. As much, the Redskins give us something to hope for. And right now, I'm hoping for a championship. It's why I can despise or adore an owner, coach, or even a player. They're the ones who stand between, or in league with, my hope and reality. Love for a team does, or should, stand in spite of the team's current status. It's like love for my country. I can love my country and despise what it does, or rather those who do it in the name of my country.
I love the Washington Redskins. I suffer through every loss; I exult in every victory.
The other pink meat is salmon.

Posted by: Neil in Durango | June 8, 2007 1:00 PM | Report abuse

Dylan- is that a joke? My friend, I've never even been to the Extremeskins site. I was not complaining at all- just remarking (sincerely) that after the doldrums of the offseason it was nice to see some real news. Been around for a while- easy, chief.

Posted by: D7 | June 8, 2007 1:06 PM | Report abuse

I keep reading the same thing over and over about ExtremeSkins and I have to ask - does one bad Art spoil the site?

Posted by: Brian | June 8, 2007 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Hey,

We got Jasno, NatePDX, Lisa, jm220 and all the rest of the regulars. I freakin' don't really care about the rest of the sites (too much.)

RI is the best place to be!

Rock on, people!

Posted by: charlie | June 8, 2007 1:31 PM | Report abuse

Culpepper just got McNaired, i.e., Dante has left the building (escorted by security).

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 1:33 PM | Report abuse

Didn't I read Daunte requested to be cut loose? The end of a sour tenure, sure, but very different from that ugly McNair lockout situation last summer.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 1:42 PM | Report abuse

The Donks just traded for Jimmy Kennedy from the Rams, for a 6th. Thats Sam Adams, and Jimmy Kennedy, in the same week. Roughly 700 pounds of defensive tackle. I hope we know what we're doing....

Posted by: Greg(Boston) | June 8, 2007 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Run Paris, run!!!!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 8, 2007 1:48 PM | Report abuse

Sam Adams + Jimmy Kennedy ... sounds like they should be in Foxboro, or Hyannisport, or Nantucket. 700 pounds of two defensive tackle won't be able to get through Dallas' one soon-to-be-tackle-turned-guard Leonard Davis.

That said, I'm glad the Skins don't have to play the Broncos next year. [More likely would be that last post-season game would either be a rematch of Patriots regular season game or the preseason one against the Ravens.]

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 1:53 PM | Report abuse

I don't like fan sites, they're lame. Wait, I'm on a fan blog. Nevermind, they're cool.

Not to change topic, but I think Miami in week 1 should be an easy win. Their defense is yet another year old and our offensive coordinator just so happens to know Miami's QB (read: weaknesses) like the back of his hand.

And I hope we don't cut Springs. I miss the days of having a DB roster with Green, Champ and Smoot. We're finally realizing that our defense at #3 in the league didn't have any major DE pass rushers, but it had great corners that allowed more pressure to be put on the QB. Hell, even Matt Bowen was getting to the QB.

Posted by: Section 104 | June 8, 2007 1:57 PM | Report abuse

Quick Hits:

1. I am all for complete open access as a rule. But FB is strategic....would you want someone spilling the beans on gameplans, injuries...some secrecy is good, and for that teams, from a FB standpoint, must excercise some message control.

2. Snyder is a DB no doubt. Matt is right on his fairness....official/nonofficial arguement.

3. Fans are best served using forums like this that combine independant access and user participation, rather than team based fansites, or fansites with little "authority"

4. The real issue is the NFL owned media, who will bribe fan sites into "getting on board" NFL Network, sirius NFL channell, NFL controled websites, team/league owned TV/Radiio....ect

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 2:01 PM | Report abuse

Quick Hits:

1. I am all for complete open access as a rule. But FB is strategic....would you want someone spilling the beans on gameplans, injuries...some secrecy is good, and for that teams, from a FB standpoint, must excercise some message control.

2. Snyder is a DB no doubt. Matt is right on his fairness....official/nonofficial arguement.

3. Fans are best served using forums like this that combine independant access and user participation, rather than team based fansites, or fansites with little "authority"

4. The real issue is the NFL owned media, who will bribe fan sites into "getting on board" NFL Network, sirius NFL channell, NFL controled websites, team/league owned TV/Radiio....ect

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 2:01 PM | Report abuse

The Donks just traded for Jimmy Kennedy from the Rams, for a 6th. Thats Sam Adams, and Jimmy Kennedy, in the same week. Roughly 700 pounds of defensive tackle. I hope we know what we're doing....

Posted by: Greg(Boston) | June 8, 2007 01:47 PM

Isn't Kennedy one of those perennial underachieving guys? Sounds like Shanahan is really rolling the dice on guys this year. 1- drafting the kid from UF who got kicked of the team Thomas? 2 - Adams, 3 - Kennedy. They still need help at WR, LB and FS. Maybe Shanahan thinks this is the donkeys year.

Posted by: skinswest | June 8, 2007 2:02 PM | Report abuse

I get saturated with Donkey news here in Durango, and now I have to read it on RI??

But seriously, the Doncs have made some major upgrades this year: CB, WR(last year), TE, DL(?). The truth is they and their fans are rather similar to the Redskins, et al: the fans love all things Doncos, they're usually in it to some degree or another, they've made some bone-headed personnel moves (Fererotte, Jake, etc.), and they seem to be due.
When the Doncos and the Redskins met in the Doug Williams superbowl, I got (get)years of pleasure each time a Doncos fan says something about the Redskins. The fans here truly do appreciate my undying loyalty to the Redskins. I even married a Doncos fan.

Posted by: Neil in Durango | June 8, 2007 2:06 PM | Report abuse

chris Larry, I'm still waiting for the 5th quick hit (the one about jm220).

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 2:06 PM | Report abuse

If Paris Hilton's name was, say LaQuanda Days Inn, would the media be covering it with the same intensity?

Posted by: wonderin' aloud | June 8, 2007 2:07 PM | Report abuse

Quick hit #5:

JM220 got so drunk last nite on lemon spritzer that he hit on a cigar store indian and was found passed out sucking on the teat of a vietnameese pot bellied pig.

Posted by: chris larry | June 8, 2007 2:13 PM | Report abuse

I just read this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/michael_silver/06/07/ginn.dolphins/1.html

I want to reiterate my early position way before the draft. Ginn is going to be devastating in the pros, an elite WR. He is EXACTLY what the Dolphins needed--a gamebreaker. That's something they haven't had in forever, which is why they have always been disappointing. If you know, as a coach and GM, that you are getting the QB you want through a trade and later on in the draft, why not get the gamebreaker with #9. You could argue you could get him later, but we all know now how hard it was to trade down until you got in the high teens and value was there.

So I love the Ginn pick. He will be awesome. Quinn will have a middle-class version of Joey Harrington's career. And everyone knows it, which is why he dropped like a ton of bricks.

The Governor

Posted by: The Governor | June 8, 2007 2:14 PM | Report abuse

CL LMGO. That was a good one.

Posted by: jm220 | June 8, 2007 2:19 PM | Report abuse

I will not tolerate any bashing on the skins

Posted by: Art from ES | June 8, 2007 2:20 PM | Report abuse

My take is the NFL is clamping down on the web as the teams (at least the skins) have been doing for the last couple of years. If anything this is a bad decision. By spending so much time policing content you are turning fans and interest away from the most popular media of the day. I almost look at it as being a Microsoft model that breeds rebellion. Instead it should be an open source model that encourages participation linking all of the sites through message boards, guest reporting, inside scoops, and the all important merchandise portals. This model would drive fan interest, participation, and of course revenue. It is a changing business model these days and Danny has to get with it. If Google or Myspace spent the first few years of existence policing what showed up on their sites they wouldn't be where they are today.

Posted by: Billy881 | June 8, 2007 2:22 PM | Report abuse

I used to intern at the Redskins a few years back when all this message board stuff was going on. The PR staff hates the fan sites going out to cover the team--including Extremeskins. They accept Extremeskins's presence because there's an affiliation, and they pray that the "fan reporters" who go to camps don't cause problems, report something they shouldn't, or get in the way. I guess Extremeskins has done okay, because they still have access.

WarPath's "reporter" who was granted access was this guy Joe Crisp. He had no media credentials other than being with a fan site. He basically got in to cover the Redskins because a PR intern doing credentials (not me) one day didn't know the difference between Warpath.net and WarPath Insiders, a web site/fan forum/message board that was affiliated with John Keim, a legitimate reporter who is now with the D.C. Examiner.

So WarPath never should have had access to begin with...

Joe Crisp managed to get into a couple camps and wasn't a problem, as I recall. But staffers told me he was always asking around seeking a full-time job. That's one sure-fire way to have your motives questioned.

Posted by: Breaker | June 8, 2007 2:22 PM | Report abuse

Assuming Springs opens Week 1 as the #1 CB, who would you guess has the best shot at #2? Smoot or Rogers? Also, is there anything that says the nickel has to be the #3 CB? Why not the #3 safety?

Governor right on re: Ted Ginn, Jr. notwithstanding what his vet teammates say. That last game would have ended differently if Ginn weren't injured early. Same thing with Troy Smith in Baltimore. When McNair finishes his career, Smith won't miss a beat. Troy Smith will be the Heisman winner who actually does something with his NFL career.

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 2:23 PM | Report abuse

i saw jm220 and chris larry sniffin eachother's panties

nate, you gotta do a better job promoting the t-shirts. those t's are awesome. make the link a "signature" for every comment... like this:

nate, you gotta do a better job promoting the t-shirts. those t's are awesome. make the link a "signature" for every comment... sorta like this


Get an Original artwork T-shirt, Help Rebuild New Orleans

i'll try to do it as much as i can...

Posted by: dealer | June 8, 2007 2:33 PM | Report abuse

Matt, could you shed some light on exactly what 'training camp credentials/ behind-the-scenes access' meant? Just how much more could someone with such credentials see and do than the fan on the other side of the ropes?

And is Breaker's post above accurate?

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 2:34 PM | Report abuse


oops...link didn't work

Get Your T on

Posted by: dealer | June 8, 2007 2:36 PM | Report abuse

dealer, thanks for the plug. Now if I can just get Bucktown Skins Fan (or anybody else out there with a creative bent??) to come up with even more awesome tee shirt designs...

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 2:36 PM | Report abuse

Ladies and gents, I have just purchased my first RI t-shirt. I got the gray, long-sleeved "Super-smart" one.

Let the wardrobe overhaul begin!

Posted by: MV Dame | June 8, 2007 2:37 PM | Report abuse

But staffers told me he was always asking around seeking a full-time job.

LOL! oops LMGO!

Posted by: dealer | June 8, 2007 2:39 PM | Report abuse

guys, Ive lost it but we are still gonna coach them up, fight our guts and play supersmart

Posted by: Joe Gibbs | June 8, 2007 2:42 PM | Report abuse

Starting backfield: Smoot, Rogers, Taylor, and the rookie Landry. Springs passing downs: pass coverage specialist. Macklin, Butler, Jimoh compete for remaining CB positions. Fox, Doughty probably will get the nod. Stoutmire and Prioleau compete for the remaining safety position.

Posted by: periculum | June 8, 2007 2:42 PM | Report abuse

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Posted by: dealer | June 8, 2007 2:43 PM | Report abuse

Dr. Z showing a LITTLE love for Sean Taylor on p.1 of his story today, only to renege by his mailbag response by p.3. Nicely, he comes clean that his only real gripe is with The Owner and The Raquetball Parter, and shows some love for the players.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/06/08/mailbag/index.html

Posted by: dcsween | June 8, 2007 2:44 PM | Report abuse

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Posted by: -washington post | June 8, 2007 2:44 PM | Report abuse

"But staffers told me he was always asking around seeking a full-time job."

That's how Charlie Casserly got his first job with the redskins. He VOLUNTEERED to be an unpaid intern and lived at the YMCA (homeless shelter). We all know where he ended up.

Posted by: periculum | June 8, 2007 2:45 PM | Report abuse

Back at the homeless shelter?

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 2:48 PM | Report abuse

What no COWBELL shirts available?

Great job on the RI apparrel...may have to grab a few.

Posted by: Cheyenne, WY | June 8, 2007 2:53 PM | Report abuse

"Snyder is a master business man, and ultimately, that will help the team, they are just righting the ship after years and years of ineptitude."

Snyder like Casserly was lucky. He found someone to fund several of his early failures. A mentor who believe in him. He knows nothing about football talent or running a team. But I think he is learning from Joe Gibbs (hoping he has an open mind about his own failings and weaknesses). He appears to be very good at sales, marketing and packaging a product.

On the topic of overexcited fans getting involved and reporting things they shouldn't, having opinions that might not reflect the true state of things ... they are after all fans who think the 'Skins must win every single game ...

THEN WHAT THE ?%$#@*& do you call Snyder? Isn't he the ultimate nightmare? A ravenous fan owning and attempting to RUN HIS FAVORITE TEAM? Its probably the ONLY thing that redeems him in Redskin's fan's eyes. SO THE SKINS SHOULD BR FRIENDLY to FANs' sites and TO FANS PERIOD.

Posted by: periculum | June 8, 2007 2:53 PM | Report abuse

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Posted by: Carmella | June 8, 2007 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Governor, thanks for making sure that I never have to go to the Dolphins sites for interesting opinions to read.

Section 104, you are the weakest link, goodbye.

Posted by: Redcoat | June 8, 2007 3:00 PM | Report abuse

Look at Redcoat gettin' all saucy. Nice.

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 3:03 PM | Report abuse

MV Dame, thanks for the order! By the way, that shirt is white, not gray. But it will look super-good anyway.

Where are we in the race to 100k?

Posted by: Nate in the PDX | June 8, 2007 3:08 PM | Report abuse

I just thought I'd pick up on the Blog-geist, which seems to be "aggressive, yet somehow still friendly".

Anyway, the Miami blogs are actually pretty dull for the most part. You guys have a lot more fun here.

Posted by: Redcoat | June 8, 2007 3:14 PM | Report abuse

keeping westcoast peeps in mind...what do you guys think about watching THE FINALE up here?

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Posted by: dealer | June 8, 2007 3:21 PM | Report abuse

new post....

Posted by: Anonymous | June 8, 2007 3:24 PM | Report abuse

new post....

Posted by: Anonymous | June 8, 2007 3:24 PM | Report abuse

or, new double post, as it were

Posted by: Anonymous | June 8, 2007 3:28 PM | Report abuse

Sorry...but I don't feel like I'm getting fair access lols.

I see both sides honestly. I don't really provide reporting or anything on my site. I have a stupid non-sense blog and will probably make camp reports and whatnot, but it would be cool if there was a fan site category that had some kind of access. The motivation the Dolphins provide probably does benefit them indirectly as the fan sites compete against each other...hopefully get incrementally better, and create more grassroots community for the team. Danny has chosen to try and "corner" the market. Sucks for us in some ways, not in others.

Posted by: www.redskinsdb.com | June 8, 2007 6:20 PM | Report abuse

Who is this "Sean Springs" that monkalicious speaks of (12.24) - is he some meld between Sean Taylor and Shawn Springs?
It would seem that some people on here bashing the fansites, could do with visiting them to brush up on player names!

Posted by: SantanaMan | June 8, 2007 6:43 PM | Report abuse

I've covered camp and games for the Redskins both on the inside and on the outside and while it's a little better with a press pass, it's not impossible to do it without one. The main drawback without a press pass is that you can't talk to the players. Frankly, however, it's extremely rare to get an insightful comment from a player, especially under Gibbs.

I think that the Website issues go beyond the Redskins. Very, very few web-only publications get press access even to minicamp or training camp throughout the NFL. None that I'm aware of get game-day or practice credentials.

I'm not sure if the NFL prohibits Internet media from getting access but certainly the league discourages it. The event that the Dolphins have is very much the exception and not the rule.

In short, if Snyder is wrongheaded in his thinking about this, then so are the vast majority of the other teams in the NFL. It don't mean that they're not all wrong and really missing out on an opportunity to get some goodwill for almost zero cost, but the exclusion of fan sites is the customary way of doing business in the NFL in 2007.

(And, Joe in Raleigh, thanks for the props. I'm working on a book right now, so the Skins blog has been set aside until the season starts)

Posted by: Rich Tandler | June 8, 2007 9:10 PM | Report abuse

"Who is this "Sean Springs" that monkalicious speaks of (12.24) - is he some meld between Sean Taylor and Shawn Springs?
It would seem that some people on here bashing the fansites, could do with visiting them to brush up on player names!"

SantanaMan, are you kidding me? My biggest blog pet peeve is grammar correction, get a life. I never bashed ANY of the fansites. I simiply presented the side of the organization from a business and football strategy standpoint.

Posted by: monkalicious | June 9, 2007 12:05 AM | Report abuse

how many days until ODA's begin?

Posted by: flipthatswitch | June 9, 2007 12:13 AM | Report abuse

Mark here from hailRedskins.com. Matt --- nicely stated, to the point. Your a gem my friend. Honestly, you want REAL, independent news, check out the various websites, Washington Pot and Canfora's blog. No spin, no PR, just opinion like each and every fan has.

Posted by: Mark | June 9, 2007 12:32 AM | Report abuse

In response to Breaker's comment, Joe Crisp was an aspiring journalist at the time and I trusted him to conduct himself with class and professionalism at all times while he was there, and as far as I knew he did just that. I've heard different stories as to a possible souring of his relationship with some of the Redskins PR folks, but I honestly can't confirm what exactly happened. In my opinion there was some miscommunication on both ends, especially at the end when we weren't allowed to come back to camp, and perhaps some personal feelings/emotions got the best of someone. Again, I don't really know the entire story. I think it was unfortunate for everyone involved.

Posted by: Matt at TheWarpath.net | June 9, 2007 9:40 AM | Report abuse

In response to Breaker's comment, Joe Crisp was an aspiring journalist at the time and I trusted him to conduct himself with class and professionalism at all times while he was there, and as far as I knew he did just that. I've heard different stories as to a possible souring of his relationship with some of the Redskins PR folks, but I honestly can't confirm what exactly happened. In my opinion there was some miscommunication on both ends, especially at the end when we weren't allowed to come back to camp, and perhaps some personal feelings/emotions got the best of someone. Again, I don't really know the entire story. I think it was unfortunate for everyone involved.

Posted by: Matt at TheWarpath.net | June 9, 2007 9:41 AM | Report abuse

monkalicious, lol, I wasn't correcting you on your grammar - I was correcting you on the NAME of a player that as such a "fan" I would have thought you should have known. Its not like "Sean" Springs is a camp FA or anything. One of my pet peeves is fans who feel they know X amount about everything yet can't spell a players name correctly.
Now if you don't mind I'm off to play NBA Live with Alan Iverson and Dwain Wade ;-)

Posted by: SantanaMan | June 9, 2007 2:49 PM | Report abuse

You all need to boycott the Foreskins and Dan Snyder. Dont buy any merchandise and dont go the games. The maybe he will sell the team and you get an owner doesnt pursue that last penny of profit eith Anzi storm trooper zeal.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 9, 2007 8:40 PM | Report abuse

I am a regular poster on ES and a few other Redskins sites and frankly I don't see Warpath, Hailskins, The Hogs, Redskins Roadtrips,DTC or any other fan sites getting left out since the ES/Redskins merger. Each site has their own sources and some get scoops quicker than you see from "official" ES press releases (note 75th uniform as an example). Matter of fact, since the ES merger some things that vet-ESers enjoyed in the original versions of ES (game coundown clock, BANG cartoons-- now has his own site,draft history, player/coach history) no longer exist, so you have to be a part of other sites just to get that info (not sure why the upgrades or original material have yet to return to the site). Plus, there are some great bloggers and analysis on other sites that you don't get at ES.
It's clear that the Redskins decided on a fan site to get out their stories and counter the negative press coming from the media (most importantly the on-again off-again feuds with The Post)and it's easier to do that through on fan site than having to keep in touch with every fan-site. I think the bigger question isn't why the other message boards have been left out, but why hasn't ES been made to be as good or better as a site than it was before the Redskins purchased it?

Posted by: A Redskins fan | June 9, 2007 10:33 PM | Report abuse

I just read the article on the Dolphins web site about their award ceremony, referenced by Matt in his blog.

Nowhere does it say in the article that the Dolphins invited the fan sites to go out and watch practice (the event was during the season), and basically cover the team and interview coaches and players like a media member.

It says they were given a tour of the facility, an awards ceremony and tickets to a game. (Tickets to a game sounds like a pretty sweet perk, no?)

So why do you want, no seemingly expect, access to cover camps? (Maybe the Dolphins do give fan sites access during camps, I don't know.)

The question I have for Redskins fan sites is, why do you feel the need to act like a media member? Why isn't being a fan enough? Can't fan sites, and I include Extremeskins, be satisfied with being a fan site?

I know the answer: It's because when your fan site posts breaking news, or exclusive content, your web site grows and gets recognized. Sure, you mention Hailredskins and Hogs and whatever other Skins fan site is out there, but that's only because you're all outsiders who desperately want in.

Admit it: there is self-interest here.

Posted by: Breaker | June 9, 2007 11:57 PM | Report abuse

Warning - long post .....

I'm a huge Skins fan and have been so since '81 and live in England. The internet has given me access to information and coverage on the Skins I could not even dream of back in the 80's when I was listening to a deadful signal of AFN radio, watching 60 minutes highlight shows evey week on which the Skins got decent coverage (because we actually won back then)and seeing some playoff games and the Super Bowl live.

Fast forward a few years and the internet arrived. I got involved first via WebSkins and their mailing list on which I was a regular for years, I also did ( and do) my daily tour around both the official (Sportsline, ESPN, NFL.com etc) and unofficial, (ES, Warpath etc) I was actually one of the original contributers to TheHogs.net before having a real life and family got in the way!

Today I go to ES every day, come to the Post and Times every day, go to the regular sites and some other 'fan' sites and sites like Football Outsiders - in fact anywhere that I can get information about whats happening with the Skins and the NFL in general.

In the season I subscribe to the NFL/Yahoo internet service which gives me access to every game to watch in full, live.

Frankly the coverage I get 5,000 miles awat from Washington is about as good as a guy living next door to the Stadium.

Life is good.

Re ES - There was a comment earlier about it being used to drive more dollars to the team. I go there every day and its not a got a cent out of me. Content and access is free. Its more about news/information dessemination than money.

The 'content' apart from the access they get to OTAs and training camps and the occaisional official news from the Skins is the same 'content' I get here or on any other fan site. Mainly comments about about why dont we sign such and such a free agent right next to comments about how stupid we are for signing such and such a free agent and general bashing (some justified some just mindless) of the owner, front office, coaching staff and occaisionally players.

The level of debate is pretty poor and I ignore most posts but every now and then I learn something or get some information early and get the gaps filled in on what I have learnt from the 'real' media. Thats great.

On ES I don't see the MODs acting like Hitler and they certainly don't 'control' the content given that the content is the views expressed by the pople who post. They do ban people for breaking rules, getting personal and being profane and so they should. Again much of this content is superficial and does not add much to the store of human knowledge but it is what it is.

I can see why Matt would love access for his site but the Skins have pitched their tent around Sas their 'official' fan site. If I was you Matt rather than hope against hope that you will be brought inside this tent I would accept where you are and think about making a virtue of the fact that you are outside the tent. Take the Outsider angle and look to differentiate what you offer from the normal list of fans posts and news links.

One final thought - most people spend more time worrying about things which are outside their control (who the Skins give camp access to for example) than things that are inside their control (making their product/site better for example). This is mainly becuse the former is much easier than the latter as it does not actually require you to DO anything.

Posted by: MartinC | June 11, 2007 5:54 AM | Report abuse

I was one of the writer's from theHogs.net that covered mini-camp two years ago. The access was very controlled. We talked to players coming off the field after practice and we saw punt return practice and a few position-specific drills. Fifteen minutes into practice we - and by we, I mean ALL the media present, not just fan sites - were escorted back into the building until the end of practice. We also got a couple of press conferences each day.

Because we were fan sites and it was our first shot at access, we acted as professional as possible, we tried to stay out of the way of the working media, and we tried to ask good, well-informed questions. I spoke to several media members afterwards to get their impressions, and got all positive feedback.

I realize that I don't have a degree in journalism or a high-profile job like JLC, but I have a passion for the Redskins and a passion for writing and I am happy I get that opportunity, as are most of my fellow fan-reporters. We provide coverage of the team from a fan's perspective.

That being said, we are promoting the Redskins brand, and we are putting out content. If, as one poster stated, the organization is really worried about controlling what we say, they can have an affect on that. If we are credentialed, they can give us rules on what we can cover. If we cover training camp from the general populace, we can post videos of 11-on-11. It seems to me it's in their best interest to give us even limited access and place rules upon that access.

Nice blog Matty. Obviously, some people don't want to see fan sites with access, and that is their choice to make, but choice is in fact what we are talking about here. Giving the passionate 'Skins fan an alternate perspective.

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