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Mike Williams Overcomes Shaky Finish

I expected tackle Mike Williams to make the opening roster because of the resources and time the organization expended to support his comeback attempt.

It would have been ridiculous for the Redskins to put so much into Williams, who has not played in a regular-season game since 2005, and cut him before the season started. In talking with people over the weekend, however, I learned Williams's standing became somewhat shaky in the final weeks of the preseason.

Some in the organization expressed concern about Williams because he missed considerable time with an abdominal strain and ankle injury. If Williams had not played in the final preseason game against Jacksonville, he might not have made the team.

Williams, however, played a lot against the Jaguars. I didn't think he was especially effective, but with the Redskins' offensive line situation, they didn't need to see much. The team kept 10 linemen and is fairly comfortable with its depth at guard and center - but the tackle position is a source of concern.

Williams and D'Anthony Batiste are the backup tackles. If left tackle Chris Samuels is sidelined because of an injury, right tackle Stephon Heyer would move to the left side and Williams would have the first chance to start. Behind Samuels and Heyer, it appears there is a significant drop-off at tackle.

Williams would disagree.

"You can't allow this to be it. This can't be you're stopping point," Williams said of making the team. "Now we're back into it, so you perfect your craft. That's what we're here to do. It's one of those thing where you just continue to work."

By Jason Reid  |  September 8, 2009; 2:30 PM ET
Categories:  Jason Reid  
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Next: Zorn Elaborates on Mason's Role

Comments

A tad overly harsh considering most every team does sue a fan if they renig on a contract.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 2:25 PM |
------------------------

I'm forwarding this to Mike Freeman immediately.

It's obvious that zjfr2's misspelling of renege is yet another example of overt racism from a Redskins fan.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | September 8, 2009 2:32 PM | Report abuse

I do not hate Dan Snyder and I am not, nor do I want to be on his payroll. He has made many mistakes and has not built a championship team, but I don't hate him. You can point at many other teams that have made personnel mistakes, PR mistakes, etc.

Snyder's problem is that he does not know how to build a winning team, although I think that is changing. We are a younger and faster team, at many (not all) positions, but a team cannot be rebuilt in one offseason. Everyone acknowledges that work is needed on the O-line, but we needed work on the D-Line too. We got a big free agent, but some homegrown talent and depth.

I understand everyone has a right to their opinion. Snyder has not built a wealth of support, but that starts with winning. The problem is the Skins could win a SB and it will still never be enough. We draft, but they say it's wrong people. Whe show patience, but we want someone else in that position. We throw, we say we shoulda ran. Fans say we don't draft and groom our own talent...we get Heyer and groom him into a RT, not you say we shoulda drafted one.

Right or wrong, Snyder will never be able to do right by this city.

Posted by: rickyroge | September 8, 2009 2:35 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: rickyroge | September 8, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: rickyroge | September 8, 2009 2:35 PM

Nicely put!

Posted by: Curzon417 | September 8, 2009 2:40 PM | Report abuse

I predict the Redskins depth will be tested early.

I don't think Randy Thomas will last four games...Samuels won't last six.

I see why the Skins kept Williams, but if there is a viable Tackle out there on waivers, I bring him in the game after Williams plays. Williams doesn't seem to be able to pass block.

...but what do I know?

Posted by: rickyroge | September 8, 2009 2:40 PM | Report abuse

On the grounds that they gave up a 1st round draft choice for a player, and none has shown up yet.

If he shows up and gets injured and ends up on IR all season, fine. If he shows up and fights with his coaches and gets benched or suspended for the season, fine.

But if he never shows up, it's not even a trade.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | September 8, 2009 2:23 PM | Report abuse
-----------------------------------------

How far do you take this? Should the 49es get their 10th pick back because Crabtree didn't report? But would Buff have to give them Maybin (taken 11th), and by extension have us give up Orakpo to Buff (because Maybin wouldn't have been there)? Maybe because Crabtree sits out, Orakpo has an argument that he would have gone 11th and demands more money? By the book, that would be fair, right?

See, by making things all nicey nice, you raise more questions than you answer. The solution boils down to 'swim at your own risk'.

If the Raiders were smart, they would have a physical clause, which means that a no-show would torpedo the trade, but no one would be surprised if they were not that smart.

Repost

Posted by: mattsoundworld | September 8, 2009 2:43 PM | Report abuse

A tad overly harsh considering most every team does sue a fan if they renig on a contract.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 2:25 PM |
------------------------

I'm forwarding this to Mike Freeman immediately.

It's obvious that zjfr2's misspelling of renege is yet another example of overt racism from a Redskins fan.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | September 8, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Actually it was just a misspelled word in a long rant but make it a big deal if you want to

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 2:33 PM | Report abuse

suischem has to become consistent, offensive and defensive game-planning have to become more aggressive, etc... too many things have to happen for this to be a winning a season. Despite that, skins will go 9-7

Posted by: coparker5 | September 8, 2009 2:33 PM | Report abuse

I'm forwarding this to Shaun immediately, coparker's misspelling of Suisham is obvious overt racism towards Canadians.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 2:35 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

This whole BMW thing is getting under my skin. So he makes the team 'cause they're already invested?

Lemmings...

Hey, I hope he can turn it around, too. How about some direct Buges reaction here? It wouldn't be about what he says, but how he says it...

Posted by: DikShuttle | September 8, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

I believe Snyder wants to win badly, I really do, he's just too stupid to realize he's not capable of doing it and arrogant to admit he needs help. However, if he ever were to get out of his own way and hire a real football guy to run his organization for him the team experienced consistent success and won a championship or two, I would forgive and change my opinion of him and I believe most everyone else would too. But until that day, I hate him.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Never bought into the BMW hype or hope. THe fact the guy has his life back is a terrific thing ... but he's clearly not ready for prime time.

Like Colt, BMW is a guy who could have used NFL Europe as a place to polish up his act. Unfortunately, there really is no place for BMW to get the year of on field play he's going to need in order to get himself back to NFL level play.

I wish BMW well, but if he's playing T for us, its not going to be pretty

Posted by: zcezcest1 | September 8, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Beer post:

I picked up a bottle of Lagunitas Lucky 13 at my local Top Foods this weekend. Good stuff. I hadn't had a red in quite a while.

(The beer selection at Top Foods is a thing of beauty.)

Posted by: freakzilla | September 8, 2009 2:52 PM | Report abuse

Wow - NFL Europe... the minor league...

nice reference.

Posted by: DikShuttle | September 8, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

Cutting Bridges surprised me.

Posted by: Samson151 | September 8, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

To all of you Devin Thomas haters...dude is 22 years old. Let him have some time. Put in perspective: Marko Mitchell is 24 years old.

Also, ARE will greatly benefit from having Malcolm, DT and Mitchell contributing because he will likely draw matchups against nickel and dime corners and will alos be lined up in the slot.

Flexing Cooley, five receiver sets, more downfield throws...I am positively giddy...GO SKINS!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: lavararrington | September 8, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

@rickroge: 3) I'm more worried about the secondary than I am the offensive line. They give up too much underneath stuff.

I agree. Still up in the air as to whether I am more worried about offensive tackle (only backup big mike williams) or defensive back which lacks a consistent cover corner.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

I was shocked that Chase Daniel did not go into the UFL speaking of minor league. Should have gone to prove he can play at 5'10

Posted by: alex35332 | September 8, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

To all of you Devin Thomas haters...dude is 22 years old. Let him have some time. Put in perspective: Marko Mitchell is 24 years old.

That's all well and good and true to an extent. The problem is teams are limited in the number of players they can have on their rosters. Backups and in Joe Gibbs day, STARTERS often played on "teams" to give the teams a leg up if that aspect of the game started going down.

I sure hope all of these defensive linemen and linebackers, and corner backs can play special teams. And play them well.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 2:59 PM | Report abuse

Should have gone to prove he can play at 5'10
Where do you get 3" cleats?

Posted by: daggar | September 8, 2009 3:00 PM | Report abuse

The funny thing is there are people who will sympathize with Seymour - as if playing in the NFL, even if it's for the Oakland Raiders - is some kind of punishment, instead of what it actually is: a blessing.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 |

Emmitt Smith, former Dallas RB, called the trade "a tragedy." Nice perspective, Em Visit a military hospital, sometime.

He also predicted Dallas would win seven games this year--SEVEN.

He was making the talk show rounds, sponsored by "theotherwhitemeat.com" which he plugged in exchange for showing up.

That's pork, of course, and some marketting "Genius" thought it would be wise to have him as spokesperson.

I'm selling my pork futures in Dallas, hell ALL of Texas. If you were a cowboy fan--and God help you if you are--would you ever eat pork again, when their spokesman says your favorite team sucks?

I LOVE it when marketting goes terribly wrong.

Posted by: TheCork | September 8, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

By the way, if I were going to beat the Giants, I'd do it by controlling the ball with short passes and runs, with the goal of frustrating that defense and keeping them on the field as long as I could. I'd focus on converting a lot of third downs rather than going for big plays. And I'd look for a turnover on a kick return.

Posted by: Samson151 | September 8, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

I never thought Bridges would make it. Zorn hardly ever mentioned the guy before preseason started. Neither did Bugel.

It is what it is. They will have to draft OL next year. Or trade for it as the Eagles did. I think it best to draft the best players available.

1st pick will likely be a corner back I suspect.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

I agree. Still up in the air as to whether I am more worried about offensive tackle (only backup big mike williams) or defensive back which lacks a consistent cover corner.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

O-line is definitely the biggest concern for the team. After that I would be concerned about depth at LB.

The DBs will be fine as long as DLine performs well and gets pressure. I can't think of any corner in the league that would look good being forced to cover a receiver for 5+ seconds on a consistent basis.

Posted by: PortisPocketsStr8 | September 8, 2009 3:02 PM | Report abuse

@rickroge: 3) I'm more worried about the secondary than I am the offensive line. They give up too much underneath stuff.

I agree. Still up in the air as to whether I am more worried about offensive tackle (only backup big mike williams) or defensive back which lacks a consistent cover corner.

Posted by: periculum

Less worried about the secondary because we don't play many teams with 2-3 good WRs. At first blush, only Den, SD and NO have a strong #2 or #3 WR. Maybe philly. Plus, no Peyton, no Brady, no Rodgers, no Warner ... we only play a few QBs that are capable of slicing up a very good defense.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | September 8, 2009 3:03 PM | Report abuse

"Behind Samuels and Heyer, it appears there is a significant drop-off at tackle."

RI, The Mayor

John Corcoran made the same point--and others-- in his column about the unbalanced nature of the Final 53, posted on NFLDRaftdog.com yesterday.

http://www.nfldraftdog.com/nfl-team-columns/washington-redskins.html

Posted by: TheCork | September 8, 2009 3:05 PM | Report abuse

this blog's viewpoint seems to be that Williams won't continue to get better. why? he couldn't even participate in minicamps. he looked awful in training camp. just so-so against baltimore. showed flashes of real power and leverage in 50 plays last week. why won't he continue to get better? name 5 linemen in the last twenty-eight years who have real talent (which Williams obviously does) who have not eventually panned out under Bugel's tutelage? he has turned much worse players than Williams into quality long term starters.

Posted by: Zorny | September 8, 2009 3:06 PM | Report abuse

Why do you keep talking about "all the Redskins have invested" in Mike Williams? They invested a veteran minimum contract. Williams did all the work to get in playing shape. He probably made the team because he's the second best right tackle they've got and has plenty of upside still to reach.

Posted by: bigfoot1 | September 8, 2009 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Never bought into the BMW hype or hope. THe fact the guy has his life back is a terrific thing ... but he's clearly not ready for prime time.

Like Colt, BMW is a guy who could have used NFL Europe as a place to polish up his act. Unfortunately, there really is no place for BMW to get the year of on field play he's going to need in order to get himself back to NFL level play.

I wish BMW well, but if he's playing T for us, its not going to be pretty

Posted by: zcezcest1 | September 8, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

An early season ending injury to one of our starting tackles would be devastating but usually the injuries come towards the end of the year and by then BMW should be ready to go. If there is an early injury then we would have to make a move but I would burn that bridge when we get there. BMW should be fine by week 8. If he does play before he's ready then we'll need to pound the ball. He can actually run block. He's no worse than Jansen was last year so we are actually better off because Mike will get better every week. Nobody knows what his ceiling is. There's no reason to let him go until he hits that ceiling. We have no cap room so we aren't going to get any real talent there anyway. The best we could do is grab someone else's trash which is probably like BMW only with no upside. I'm not comfortable with it but it'll have to do. For the next 7 weeks the depth at tackle is our exhaust vent on the death star nightmare scenario.

Posted by: PAskinsfan17 | September 8, 2009 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Mike Williams should have never made the regular roster. He is injury prone and he showed very little in preseason. You can get all warm and emotional about the guy bouncing back from 400 plus pounds and life out of football, but the solid slap-you-in-the-face reality is the guy is not that good. Keeping him around is an ego trip for the team and it is stupid. I mean, this guy was a broken shutter in the preseason and he is just one injury away from playing. How could they ever justify keeping him around? Why don't they at least have an offensive lineman on the developmental roster as insurance?

Posted by: RedSkinHead | September 8, 2009 3:11 PM | Report abuse

yo peopleare....
Skins are playing JC because of his Contract size and their HUGE investment in him over the last 4 years.. 20 mil so far and a 1st, 3rd and 4th (not counting the First rounder they used to pick him in 05).... Dan will try to trade him again (if 1-3 or 0-4), before the mid October deadline, if JC is the same JC that took the Skins to 2-6, the last 8 games of last year. For the same reason Snyder tried to trade JC during the winter but no one wanted him for higher than a 3rd rounder (according to NFL.Com). Dan wants something in return for the investment.. And so far, no winning seasons and no playoffs from JC.
In 2007, the Skins were in a free fall of 4 losses in a row until JC was injured. Todd Collins steps in and wins all last 4 games in a row, including 2 against the Boys and Gints in must wins.. With the SAME Personnel (OLine and Receivers) that JC had...Skins make the playoffs and if the rookie substitute starter (due to an Oline injury), Stephon Heyer (who had never played a down all year), had not made an all pro out of Kearney of the Seahawks (Kearney was in the backfield more than Portis and named MVP)..Skins and Collins would of advanced, most likely..

Check their individual stats... Collins is far more effective in the red zone than JC and also with passes completed over 40+ yards. In the 4 games he started, he nearly exceeded all of what JC did in 12 games, in that category, while becoming NFL player of the month. And look at JC's stats for 2008, 3 passes over 40+ (incl YACs) FOR 16 GAMES!! Thats why the Skins scored less points than the 0-16 Lions. His cumulative stats look average because its not based on field position.. Alot of his stats were short passes outside of the red zone.

Finally, if JC is leading the Skins to a loss against the Giants, like he did twice last year, what do you have to lose by putting in Collins and trying to save the game? You should play to win...and that should include replacing the QB if he is ineffective... Just like a coach would do with any position where the player is underperforming.. JC shouldnt be exempt from this...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

peoplearestupid1 wrote:
How are we still talking about Collins? This is ridiculous, Collins clearly is not an NFL qb. He has had like 13 years in this league and hes started how many games? Clearly, coaches dont see it in him, so what is it that you fans see? Are you an NFL scout? A coach? A player developer? Do you see something that EVERY SINGLE COACH does not? Stop this, you sound stupid every time you say it and it just annoys everyone who knows that he is a capable backup but not a starting caliber qb.

Posted by: peoplearestupid1 | September 8, 2009 1:39 PM

Posted by: SkinsneedaGM | September 8, 2009 3:12 PM | Report abuse

To all of you Devin Thomas haters...dude is 22 years old. Let him have some time. Put in perspective: Marko Mitchell is 24 years old.

Posted by: lavararrington

Age is no excuse. If he wasn't ready for the pros, he should have stayed in school. The Skins aren't paying Devin Thomas to "develop". That's what Michigan State was paying him for.

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz | September 8, 2009 3:14 PM | Report abuse

wow skins... impressive stats

I'm done with this. You are wasting my time, the time of the other people here and to be honest your own time. Collins is not the answer. He is old, he has a poor arm, he is slow. He has been a career backup who played well for 4 games and then didn't when our oline struggled. Oh wait... our oline struggled the last 8 games last year... yet no mention of that in your bashing of JC... no it was all JCs fault that we went 2-6... not the fact that our 2 best lineman were hurt and missed the rest of the season.... COME ON NOW man... stop this s*** sjk's and realize that its not all on JC... your being an idiot and that is all I am saying on this... done thank you.

Posted by: peoplearestupid1 | September 8, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

While I'm as big a JC hater as there is, and I'm surprised there hasn't been any trade JC now and sign Garcia talk on here. JC gets the whole season and either plays well and is re-signed or plays average to poor and walks, its that simple. And he should, he's looked great in the last two preseason games and deserves a shot with some legitimate weapons to throw to, if he fails this year though he's out of excuses. (although I'm sure everyone will find a way to make them for him anyway.)

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

Mike Williams, is here for VinnEgo's Ego.. plain and simple..
And the Skins couldve grabbed a dozen better qualified STARTING OLine players in the last 48 hours on the waiver wire.

please sell this team!!!

Posted by: SkinsneedaGM | September 8, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

"The Skins aren't paying Devin Thomas to "develop". That's what Michigan State was paying him for"


wow...ufb......

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | September 8, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

Beer Question:

After a previous discussion here by someone mentioning Duvel, I am now intrigued and looking for this. Went to the website & searched locations. I'm in Atlanta and every time I put in a city between here and New York to see if it was sold there the website just laughed at me. Other than NY, is this beer sold anywhere, or is the web site just not updated?

Posted by: will_ga | September 8, 2009 3:24 PM | Report abuse

And, yeah, I am predisposed to believe Vinny or the coaching staff -- Zorn, Blache, Bugel. I think they're more credible than the posters up here.

Posted by: talent_evaluator

Talk about a straw man.

Question: Yourself included credibility-wise?

And if you believe Zorn when he said the team picked up Woodson just for his athletic skills, call me. Florida. Real estate. Not damp. Great drainage. No ‘gaters. Can make you a terrific deal

Posted by: TheCork | September 8, 2009 3:26 PM | Report abuse

will you take bonus points in lieu of cash?

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | September 8, 2009 3:27 PM | Report abuse

One of the compelling elements missing from the fallout generated from the Redskins-sue-fans series in The Washington Post is personal accountability, quaint as that notion is in America today.

Owning premium season tickets is a luxury item, no different from owning a sports car, boat or lakeside resort home.

Would anyone be feeling the pain of those owners who defaulted on their payments? Would anyone be wringing their hands or saying foul things of the lenders seeking restitution?

I know what you are thinking: But owning a yacht is different from owning premium season tickets to a beloved institution, which is true enough.

You actually have far more latitude to peddle premium season tickets than you do a sports car in times of economic hardship.

A season ticket, unlike a sports car, does not lose value the moment it is in someone's possession. If anything, a creative person could find a way to make money on the ticket, starting with the Redskins-Cowboys game.

Not that I am advising anyone to do that, because it is against the law.

Another unsettling element of the fallout is a failure to acknowledge that the financial circumstances of individuals rarely run in a straight line. There are ups and downs, some more dramatic than others.

The wise person plans for down periods, setting aside funds. And rest assured, in good times or bad, something unfortunate is bound to happen to a percentage of those tied to 20,000 premium-seat contracts.

That is the genius of Daniel Snyder. He is trafficking in statistical probability. Even in good times, a certain percent of the 20,000 is going to experience a financial hit, and Snyder's empire is poised to do what it must to meet the bottom line.

That hardly makes Snyder the personification of evil. What it makes him is a businessman.

Posted by: Barno1 | September 8, 2009 3:28 PM | Report abuse

He is providing a high-dollar product, and it is up to you, the consumer, to make the decision on whether to purchase it. No arms are twisted. No guns are pointed. The consumer is free to sign a premium-seat contract. Or not.

Apparently, a number of fans lead with their hearts instead of their brains.

The rabid inclination of the team's fans is well-documented, their love and loyalty so deep that it sometimes defies financial logic and what attending a football game has come to be in these parts.

A game is no longer an event. It is an ordeal that guts the whole day, whether you leave home early to beat the traffic or accept the bumper-to-bumper challenge. Either way, you lose. If you leave home early, you are sentenced to the parking lot, where many fans munch on hot dogs and hamburgers while inhaling vast amounts of carbon monoxide. If you leave with the masses, you are reduced to being a blithering bundle of nerves.

The arduous FedEx Field experience is the antithesis of the one at RFK Stadium, which compensated for its cookie-cutter design with intimacy and convenience.

That change in venue, just to remind everyone, is not on Snyder but the late Jack Kent Cooke.

Posted by: Barno1 | September 8, 2009 3:29 PM | Report abuse

And, yeah, I am predisposed to believe Vinny or the coaching staff -- Zorn, Blache, Bugel. I think they're more credible than the posters up here.

Posted by: talent_evaluator

Talk about a straw man.

Question: Yourself included credibility-wise?

And if you believe Zorn when he said the team picked up Woodson just for his athletic skills, call me. Florida. Real estate. Not damp. Great drainage. No ‘gaters. Can make you a terrific deal

Posted by: TheCork | September 8, 2009 3:26 PM | Report abuse

or riddle me this one, last season when weren't running plays any more than 8 yards Zorn is saying Devin Thomas can't get on the field because he only knows the deep routes?????? who cares if that's all he knows, put him in the game as a big fast receiver and let him run 15 deep routes a game!! even if the other team knows that's all he can do they still have to cover it and that takes at least one maybe two guys 30 yards down field, think CP might have appreciated that a few times late in the season?

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

wow...ufb......

Posted by: BeantownGreg1

Beantown=Spartan?

By the way, there's a post-steroid pic of Merriman on the Wash Times website
http://washingtontimes.com/sports/football/

The dude now looks like a defensive back. I mean, I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin...

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz | September 8, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Snyder undoubtedly has been guilty of exploiting the fan base's deep well of passion. He certainly has paid a steep public relations price.

But the fans are guilty, too. They want the warm and cuddly mom-and-pop owner. They also want the cold, calculating owner who stares down other owners before spending vast sums of money to secure a top-flight free agent.

Abe Pollin has been criticized over the years as being an owner reluctant to spend to keep or secure top-flight talent. The Lerner family, father and son, heard the same complaint in their first few seasons of owning the Nationals.

Snyder, of course, is guilty of overindulging his coaching staff and players. If Joe Gibbs were still around, his staff probably would have expanded to a 1-to-1 ratio of coaches and players by now.

And Snyder would have signed off on it, too, while passing along the cost to you, the acquiescent consumer, the one being absolved of personal accountability because the owner is such an easy target.

-Tom Knott
Washington Times

Posted by: Barno1 | September 8, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Don't try this s*** at home.

When you get a chance, put down your Bob Dylan for a bit, and listen to a little hip-hop for awhile. Then you might just have a clue.

The song is called "Pop Champagne" by Ron Browz ft. Jim Jones & Juelz Santana

don't know the bluesy beat of a local boy from Kensington town eh ... locals R Us dude.

Hey, der Santa RedDMV, hear you just got in from San Jose. You and yo boy Mason got in trouble out that way. But I've got a song to pick up your spirits the most ... goes kinda like this:

Christmas at K-Mart this year, all over the store
People buyin Marcus Mason just a little bit more
So, you still shopping with money to spend?
Howza about a bit OT instead with help to lend?

Christmas at K-Mart, Christmas at K-Mart

The mood ring counter is all aglow
When Marcus Mason starts his juking show.
Winos asleep on the hot-air grill.
Us Redskins fans take our Christmas pill.

Cough syrup and Bendryl sold out tonight
Those Locker Room users in their usual plight
Coolie's lingerie counter was grab and go.
Marcus Mason bags on overflow.

Santa RedDMV got a dose in San Jose
Come to the K-Mart, want Marcus Mason to stay
I must have died and gone to Heaven
'Cause Hell is Christmas at 5 wins and 11.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 3:33 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Barno1 | September 8, 2009 3:29 PM | Report abuse

agreed, the only issue with the whole thing is essentially foreclosing on the asset (the tix) and if they are able to re-sell them still not crediting those proceeds to the former owner, that's shady. Otherwise, Snyder has every right and should sue these people.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:33 PM | Report abuse

"The Skins aren't paying Devin Thomas to "develop". That's what Michigan State was paying him for"

You have to develop players at a pro level. Michigan State was developing Devin Thomas at the collegiate level (And that was only for two years). There are few players that come out of college that are NFL ready. This goes for top first round picks as well.

Peyton was INT prone his first year in Indy, they finished his rookie season with a 3-13 record.

Peyton developed quite nicely, nicely indeed.

Posted by: RedDMV | September 8, 2009 3:33 PM | Report abuse

Age is no excuse. If he wasn't ready for the pros, he should have stayed in school. The Skins aren't paying Devin Thomas to "develop". That's what Michigan State was paying him for.

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz | September 8, 2009 3:14 PM

Your argument is really not well thought out. I would argue every player has to develop their game in the pros, otherwise every elite college athlete would be stud players in the pros, and every late round prospect would not succeed. Clearly there are example to dispel each incident, so one can argue that in the pros, there is an element that the team is paying for the future development of the players skills.

Posted by: TWISI | September 8, 2009 3:34 PM | Report abuse

Great - and the one problem with all of this, is yes, they did sign contracts, and yes I do believe that anyone who signed a contract for those tickets should be held responsible for the first year of the contract, but given the fact that the seat is not a perishable item, past the first year that it is sold, (meaning, they WILL be resold, if the info regarding waiting lists is anywhere near true), then why try to sue the fan for anything after the first year? The seats will be resold; as we can see from the first part of this story, if individual ticket buyers won't purchase them, then brokers will.

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | September 8, 2009 3:36 PM | Report abuse

Age is no excuse. If he wasn't ready for the pros, he should have stayed in school. The Skins aren't paying Devin Thomas to "develop". That's what Michigan State was paying him for.

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz | September 8, 2009 3:14 PM | Report abuse

The team talked ad nauseum about his 'upside' when he was drafted. That's a pretty good indicator that he was drafted to develop.

Posted by: Original_etrod | September 8, 2009 3:37 PM | Report abuse

By the way, if I were going to beat the Giants, I'd do it by controlling the ball with short passes and runs, with the goal of frustrating that defense and keeping them on the field as long as I could. I'd focus on converting a lot of third downs rather than going for big plays. And I'd look for a turnover on a kick return.

Posted by: Samson151 | September 8, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

Samson151, are you serious? You just recited the recipe for a 2-6 record the second half of last year. You can't run against the Giants and you can't dink and dunk against them. You beat the Giants by going deep and pressuring Manning.

Posted by: getitritegov | September 8, 2009 3:38 PM | Report abuse

Peyton developed quite nicely, nicely indeed.

Posted by: RedDMV

Thanks, Red. I'm usually a glass half full fan, but now my cup runneth over knowing DT11 is on a HOF track like Peyton Manning. Championship!

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz | September 8, 2009 3:40 PM | Report abuse

Great - and the one problem with all of this, is yes, they did sign contracts, and yes I do believe that anyone who signed a contract for those tickets should be held responsible for the first year of the contract, but given the fact that the seat is not a perishable item, past the first year that it is sold, (meaning, they WILL be resold, if the info regarding waiting lists is anywhere near true), then why try to sue the fan for anything after the first year? The seats will be resold; as we can see from the first part of this story, if individual ticket buyers won't purchase them, then brokers will.

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | September 8, 2009 3:36 PM | Report abuse

Why should the team take the risk after they already have a signed contract that maybe they won't sell them. The people are liable for the full amount of the contract they signed. What the right thing to do would be to sue these people for the full amount of the contract with the understanding that the team will attempt to re-sell the tickets and then credit them whatever proceeds they get from re-selling them when and if they are sold again. But the team shouldn't shoulder the risk of not being able to re-sell the ticket they already sold once.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Hey, der Santa RedDMV, hear you just got in from San Jose. You and yo boy Mason got in trouble out that way. But I've got a song to pick up your spirits the most ... goes kinda like this:

Christmas at K-Mart this year, all over the store
People buyin Marcus Mason just a little bit more
So, you still shopping with money to spend?
Howza about a bit OT instead with help to lend?

Christmas at K-Mart, Christmas at K-Mart

The mood ring counter is all aglow
When Marcus Mason starts his juking show.
Winos asleep on the hot-air grill.
Us Redskins fans take our Christmas pill.

Cough syrup and Bendryl sold out tonight
Those Locker Room users in their usual plight
Coolie's lingerie counter was grab and go.
Marcus Mason bags on overflow.

Santa RedDMV got a dose in San Jose
Come to the K-Mart, want Marcus Mason to stay
I must have died and gone to Heaven
'Cause Hell is Christmas at 5 wins and 11.


Posted by: periculum


What the huh?

I feel like I've just been lobotomized.

Dumbed-down indeed... talk about a head stratching doozie...

Posted by: RedDMV | September 8, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

You can't run against the Giants and you can't dink and dunk against them. You beat the Giants by going deep and pressuring Manning.

Yup, that's how Brunell et al beat 'em. This is the game for Marko (if active) and Malcolm. Maybe even Davis.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

The Skins are screwed if/when Samuels and/or Thomas break down. Unless Rinehart unexpectedly can play.

Posted by: Dellis2 | September 8, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

will_ga, they sell Duvel here in Olympia, WA.

I saw it at both Trader Joe's and Top Foods on Saturday. I've never had it and didn't buy it because it was quite pricey.

Posted by: freakzilla | September 8, 2009 3:43 PM | Report abuse

You can't run against the Giants and you can't dink and dunk against them. You beat the Giants by going deep and pressuring Manning.

Guess you never put the quarter in the juke and boogies til you puke. Never climbed the whitehouse fence high on LSD, after graduating Yale with an Afo studies degree.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 3:43 PM | Report abuse

red, don't try and understand/comprehend that drivel...its written in a code that only he knows......

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | September 8, 2009 3:43 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Barno1 | September 8, 2009 3:29 PM | Report abuse

agreed, the only issue with the whole thing is essentially foreclosing on the asset (the tix) and if they are able to re-sell them still not crediting those proceeds to the former owner, that's shady. Otherwise, Snyder has every right and should sue these people.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:33 PM | Report abuse

It's not exactly shady, it's part of the contract that these irresponsible people signed and it's not the Redskins fault for enforcing that aspect of it.

Posted by: Barno1 | September 8, 2009 3:44 PM | Report abuse

Why should the team take the risk after they already have a signed contract that maybe they won't sell them. The people are liable for the full amount of the contract they signed. What the right thing to do would be to sue these people for the full amount of the contract with the understanding that the team will attempt to re-sell the tickets and then credit them whatever proceeds they get from re-selling them when and if they are sold again. But the team shouldn't shoulder the risk of not being able to re-sell the ticket they already sold once.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Two questions - One - You really feel that there is a risk involved in reselling the tickets?

Two - Why do you have to sue them - at least out of the box? See what happens when the tickets are back in circulation before you sue them...

(though admittedly, most of these folks did not handle their business very well; imagine not showing up in court!)

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | September 8, 2009 3:46 PM | Report abuse

Barno do you think Dan is going to bump you up to club level seats for your efforts?

Posted by: mack1 | September 8, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Beer response-

will_ga...Duvel is sold here in the MD. I've had the 750ml bottle from Corridor Fine Wine in Laurel.
If there are any 'superstore' warehouse type places like that near you, that's a good place to start. If you like beer, it's worth finding..

Posted by: 4-12 | September 8, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

red, don't try and understand/comprehend that drivel...its written in a code that only he knows......

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | September 8, 2009

Beantown Greg he start with Port. Drinking 2 or three quarts. Swilling Mason hype Then boogie as he type Speeding two weeks on Wyamine Don't mix too good With ice box wine.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Red. I'm usually a glass half full fan, but now my cup runneth over knowing DT11 is on a HOF track like Peyton Manning. Championship!

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz | September 8, 2009 3:40 PM | Report abuse

About half the receivers in the top 20 in yards last year had little to no production in their first 2 years. That includes Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, Derrick Mason, Antonio Bryant, Hines Ward, Wes Welker, Roddy White, Vincent Jackson, Tony Gonzales, Santana Moss, and Donald Driver. DT11 was a second round pick. Second rounders are expected to need some time to develop. That's why they are picked in the second round and not the first. That's also why their salaries are much lower than the first rounders salaries.

Posted by: PAskinsfan17 | September 8, 2009 3:48 PM | Report abuse

It's not exactly shady, it's part of the contract that these irresponsible people signed and it's not the Redskins fault for enforcing that aspect of it.

Posted by: Barno1 | September 8, 2009 3:44 PM | Report abuse

Its a greedy policy is what I meant, but that's no surprise. And its a little much to call people irresponsible if they get hit by the economy unexpectedly and are all of a sudden broke, that's a part of life I hope never happens to me as I'm sure all of us do. But if a construction worker making $35k is buying $20k worth of tickets that's a little irresponsible. But there are a lot of formerly rich people who aren't anymore, that's the breaks. It doesn't excuse them from their responsibilities and they owe their creditors and if they signed a long-term contract for a luxury item like a nice car, or boat, or football tickets, they owe, doesn't mean they were irresponsible.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Marko is 24? Are you sure he's not one of those Latin ballplayers - you know, the oldboys. Check dude's birth surferticket is all I'm saying...

New gloss: Marko Castro

Posted by: ElYeah | September 8, 2009 3:52 PM | Report abuse

Barno = Mr Potter from It's a Wonderful Life

Posted by: Original_etrod | September 8, 2009 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Can I get a link to the KNott article?

Posted by: 4thFloor | September 8, 2009 3:54 PM | Report abuse

Apparently Mr. P has pissed on the Pentagon.

Posted by: ElYeah | September 8, 2009 3:55 PM | Report abuse

or riddle me this one, last season when weren't running plays any more than 8 yards Zorn is saying Devin Thomas can't get on the field because he only knows the deep routes?????? who cares if that's all he knows, put him in the game as a big fast receiver and let him run 15 deep routes a game!! even if the other team knows that's all he can do they still have to cover it and that takes at least one maybe two guys 30 yards down field, think CP might have appreciated that a few times late in the season?

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

I agree wholeheartedly with this and thus was my frustration with Zorn. Thomas should have been on the field more. If his best route is a curl, let him be the best curl runner in the NFL...

Other points...

Vinny Cerrato is the GM...he just has a different title. I can understand the hate towards Snyder, but why so much towards Vinny??? Remember this is only his 2nd year as the Executive of Football Ops. He has made some seemingly sound moves for us to get deeper and younger. In my true opinion, more personnel blunders were made under Gibbs than Vinny.

The jury is still out on Vinny.

Final point...

I think a combination of a lack of talented weapons on offense and a new system with a "gun shy" QB was what happened last season. Yeah, the O-line is critical but protections break down. You need QB's that can make plays and PLAYMAKERS to make them.

Posted by: rickyroge | September 8, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

red, don't try and understand/comprehend that drivel...its written in a code that only he knows......

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | September 8, 2009 3:43 PM

Not even....

Posted by: talent_evaluator | September 8, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Why should the team take the risk after they already have a signed contract that maybe they won't sell them. The people are liable for the full amount of the contract they signed. What the right thing to do would be to sue these people for the full amount of the contract with the understanding that the team will attempt to re-sell the tickets and then credit them whatever proceeds they get from re-selling them when and if they are sold again. But the team shouldn't shoulder the risk of not being able to re-sell the ticket they already sold once.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Two questions - One - You really feel that there is a risk involved in reselling the tickets?

Two - Why do you have to sue them - at least out of the box? See what happens when the tickets are back in circulation before you sue them...

(though admittedly, most of these folks did not handle their business very well; imagine not showing up in court!)

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | September 8, 2009 3:46 PM | Report abuse

I have never bought tickets of this type before but I have made plenty of big ticket purchases that have contracts, its kind of naive and silly to say they should just wait and see what happens when the tickets are on the market again. That would be irresponsible business on Snyder's part and he didn't make the money he has by doing things like that. He has a contract with these people that spells out what happens in default and they go through the process. Imagine if the situation was reversed, you pay all this money for these tickets and you show up for the game and the stadium is gone and there is no team anymore. Would you wait around to see if the team came back on the market or would you want to sue Snyder immediately to get your money? Snyder performed his part of the deal, he provided the team and stadium and what not, he should have gotten his money for the contract. The only reason you're even talking like this is because tickets don't seem as real a purchase as a house or car. But the same rules apply when you are making a contractually bound big purchase and these people owe him the money they agreed to pay and they owe him all of it, he didn't force them to sign the contract and he performed his side of the bargain.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Beanie boy- I'm with you, and I said it even before his latest morale draining screed, cut Cartwright now. Next it'll be the race card-you watch.

Also, find a way to put Marko on the game day roster. Dude is gonna scare some people.

Posted by: bostskin | September 8, 2009 3:58 PM | Report abuse


prescient periculum prescient..

Thats also how Collins beat them in 07... And what JC will have to do.. And he has better WRs then last year..

From NFL.Com link below
"The difference was that Todd Collins got big yardage on his successful throws, 20.75 yards per completion), while Eli Manning only got 10.2 yards per completion."

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2007121612/2007/REG15/redskins@giants
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can't run against the Giants and you can't dink and dunk against them. You beat the Giants by going deep and pressuring Manning.

Yup, that's how Brunell et al beat 'em. This is the game for Marko (if active) and Malcolm. Maybe even Davis.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 3:41 PM

Posted by: SkinsneedaGM | September 8, 2009 3:59 PM | Report abuse

"Samson151, are you serious? You just recited the recipe for a 2-6 record the second half of last year. You can't run against the Giants and you can't dink and dunk against them. You beat the Giants by going deep and pressuring Manning. Posted by: getitritegov"

Hmmm? I recall Philly's week 14 victory over NY, where Westbrook had 131 rushing yards on 33 carries and a touchdown, as well as six catches for 72 yards and another TD. Guess nobody told them they couldn't run.

Successful dinking and dunking is how the West Coast offense sets up the deep throw.

Posted by: Samson151 | September 8, 2009 4:00 PM | Report abuse

Zfr - not saying that they haven't contracturally agreed to buy the tickets - you're ignoring my point about the "perishable" nature of the tickets. Why would it not make sense, in a market with HUGE demand for those same tickets to say - fine - you can buy your contract out by paying 25% of the contract value (for this year) contingent upon our ability to sell the remaining 3 years of the contract?

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | September 8, 2009 4:02 PM | Report abuse

Be curious to see if Devin Thomas is inactive and Marko Mitchell is active. Sends an interesting message.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

@Samson151,

Unless Portis comes out for the entire game the Redskins will never "dink-and-dunk" west coast it the way Philly does.

He doesn't like catching passes. He never breaks a short one for a big gain when he dos ... come to think of it, the same is true when he runs the ball.

This might work if Betts is in ... and alternating Cooley, Davis, and Sellers.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 4:06 PM | Report abuse

periculum-

I think if Marko Mitchell is activated and Thomas inactive, I smell a blowup. That's something that could send Thomas over the edge.

Posted by: rickyroge | September 8, 2009 4:07 PM | Report abuse

I speak not, normally, but Root Boy Slim and the Sex Change Band lyrics inspire me....that is all.

Posted by: childrenofthezorn | September 8, 2009 4:07 PM | Report abuse

The problem is the Skins could win a SB and it will still never be enough. We draft, but they say it's wrong people. Whe show patience, but we want someone else in that position. We throw, we say we shoulda ran. Fans say we don't draft and groom our own talent...we get Heyer and groom him into a RT, not you say we shoulda drafted one.

Posted by: rickyroge | September 8, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

?????

That is wrong. If the Skins won the SB it would absolutely be enough... What are you even talking about at this point??

The Skins management/ownership gets consistent national criticism because
1. they've been building their team in a non-traditional way since Snyder took over (free agents, little to no homegrown talent, devaluation of draft picks)
2. they haven't won.

If the Skins had a few 12-4 regular seasons and a playoff win every few years then Snyder/management would not be the laughingstock of the league. And other teams would be emulating their style. But since we have muddled around in the middle of the NFL pack for the last decade, they get criticism for 'building the wrong way' and the fans get hypercritical. If we had won a Superbowl along the way during this last 10 years or so then it would have absolutely been enough for Skins fans. This is a results-based league. We haven't gotten (good) results in a long, long time. THAT is why Redskins Nation is so critical of Snyder.

Posted by: Sheriff_Gonna_Getcha | September 8, 2009 4:07 PM | Report abuse

Incidentally, I hate the term " Dink and Dunk". The skins should use " pip and chip" for their version of the WCO.

As in:" There 's a five yard slant to Santana. Pip! And now here's Cooley across the middle. Complete! Chip!"

The potential for rhymes is far superior to dink and dunk, if you think about it.

As such as.

Posted by: bostskin | September 8, 2009 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Zfr - not saying that they haven't contracturally agreed to buy the tickets - you're ignoring my point about the "perishable" nature of the tickets. Why would it not make sense, in a market with HUGE demand for those same tickets to say - fine - you can buy your contract out by paying 25% of the contract value (for this year) contingent upon our ability to sell the remaining 3 years of the contract?

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | September 8, 2009 4:02 PM | Report abuse

They said they offered buyouts to people and they were refused, they said they offered payment plans and various other settlement options and they were refused, and then most of the people didn't show up for court. We have no idea what these people were offered and what they refused. They told the one story of the guy that agreed to the settlement, thanked the Skins attorney and then turned around and complained about the whole thing to the paper. To me the whole thing is a bunch of people either signed contracts they didn't read, purchased things they couldn't afford, or got hit by the economy and want an out of their debt because "hey, they're just football tickets" and we don't really owe this money. It doesn't matter though, Snyder is in business to make money, we enjoy his product but it wouldn't exist if it wasn't profitable, and these people owe him money, period.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Red. I'm usually a glass half full fan, but now my cup runneth over knowing DT11 is on a HOF track like Peyton Manning. Championship!

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz


You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with comparing Peyton to D. Thomas, but just simply that players develop at the NFL level.

There are PLENTY of players that have to develop first before they become bonafied beast. I know you know this, but you have a anti DT11 based agenda so you're purposely distorting the facts to back up your weak: ""The Skins aren't paying Devin Thomas to "develop"." nonsense.

Posted by: RedDMV | September 8, 2009 4:09 PM | Report abuse

"Unless Portis comes out for the entire game the Redskins will never "dink-and-dunk" west coast it the way Philly does.
He doesn't like catching passes. He never breaks a short one for a big gain when he dos ... come to think of it, the same is true when he runs the ball.This might work if Betts is in ... and alternating Cooley, Davis, and Sellers."

In that Philly victory over NY, Westbrook averaged only 8 yards a reception. He wasn't exactly flying around the field. The Skins, like Dallas, prefer to use the TEs in that role. Portis can stay in and do what he does best.

Posted by: periculum

Posted by: Samson151 | September 8, 2009 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, my mistake: Westbrook caught 6 passes for an average of 12 per. Still, that's well within the range of those two Skins tight ends.

Posted by: Samson151 | September 8, 2009 4:12 PM | Report abuse

The Buffalo Bills have released LT Langston Walker after being unable to trade him. They had been shopping him for picks
19 minutes ago from web
JasonLaCanfora
Jason La Canfora

Posted by: 4thFloor | September 8, 2009 4:15 PM | Report abuse

SkinsneedaGM sez:

Dan will try to trade him again (if 1-3 or 0-4), before the mid October deadline, if JC is the same JC that took the Skins to 2-6, the last 8 games of last year.

That's also the same JC who took the Skins to 6-2 in the first 8 games of last year, before the O-line fell apart.


In 2007, the Skins were in a free fall of 4 losses in a row until JC was injured. Todd Collins steps in and wins all last 4 games in a row, including 2 against the Boys and Gints in must wins.. With the SAME Personnel (OLine and Receivers) that JC had...Skins make the playoffs and if the rookie substitute starter (due to an Oline injury), Stephon Heyer (who had never played a down all year), had not made an all pro out of Kearney of the Seahawks (Kearney was in the backfield more than Portis and named MVP)..Skins and Collins would of advanced, most likely.

Todd Collins was in about his 213th year in Al Saunders' offense. His knowledge of it was second only to Saunders himself. JC was in his second year of that system, and his first season as a starter. Todd Collins was, in the context in which he became our 1st-string QB, a "quarterback savant."

If you put him on the field and everything else (blocking, route running) worked according to plan, he was a perfect master gear in the machine.

But the minute one of the cogs malfunctioned, things started to unravel for him very quickly. His ability to improvise was very poor, and that's why he didn't perform against Seattle. If you go back and watch the Dallas game from that year, you'll see that Collins was decidedly less sharp than he had been in the previous games he started, because Dallas did a much better job bringing pressure. Watching film of that game, Seattle must have been licking their chops when doing their defensive game planning.

Collins cannot hurt you with his feet. Campbell can and has on many occasions. That's a fact, and it's not even close.

Posted by: freakzilla | September 8, 2009 4:18 PM | Report abuse

I speak not, normally, but Root Boy Slim and the Sex Change Band lyrics inspire me....that is all.

Posted by: childrenofthezorn | September 8, 2009

Yes, its a durned shame ol' beanboy and redDMV don't like cotton to local music, and satirical, bluesy acid at that.

Prolly wouldn't mind my paraphrasing his lyrics to fit the current Redskins predicament. Local boy that he was.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 4:18 PM | Report abuse

There's a man by the juke...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roC_JLOcnxE

Posted by: DikShuttle | September 8, 2009 4:18 PM | Report abuse

SkinsneedaGM sez:

Check their individual stats... Collins is far more effective in the red zone than JC and also with passes completed over 40+ yards. In the 4 games he started, he nearly exceeded all of what JC did in 12 games, in that category, while becoming NFL player of the month. And look at JC's stats for 2008, 3 passes over 40+ (incl YACs) FOR 16 GAMES!! Thats why the Skins scored less points than the 0-16 Lions. His cumulative stats look average because its not based on field position.. Alot of his stats were short passes outside of the red zone.

Again, you're comparing Collins, with his SaundersWare brain chip, to Campbell learning a new system. Two new systems, actually, since you're making the comparison to both Campbell's first year starting in Saunders' system, and Campbell's first year starting in Zorn's system.

And speaking of Zorn's system, how did Collins do in HIS first year in that system? He stunk! If you'll think back to last year, one of the storylines coming out Redskins Park was how Collins was struggling to learn Zorn's system.

Zorn admittedly simplified things a good bit for his offense last year. This year, it appears that Campbell & company have a much better grasp on things.

Really, dude, you're comparing apples and oranges. You're trying to compare Campbell's first year in two different offenses to Collins' performance over five games two seasons ago, in an offense he knew frontwards and backwards -- and it was a performance that ultimately showed Collins' weaknesses and revealed why he's a career backup. It's apples and oranges, and it's not even a comparison that works in your favor.


I normally stick to the jibba-jabba and let the other hamsters hash out the X's and O's, but I had to call BS on this.

Posted by: freakzilla | September 8, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

"I'm with you, and I said it even before his latest morale draining screed, cut Cartwright now. Next it'll be the race card-you watch."

Posted by: bostskin


So far, you're the only one that hinted that you're holding it. NO ONE said a damn thing about race, blacks, whites, or blues when it came to Rock Cartwright -'cept you!

What are you trying to say, really? That black people play the race card all the time?

I didn't with the president, I didn't with Campbell, and I don't with Rock. And in case you haven't been paying attention, the homie RedDMV is black. In fact two out off those three people, I don't 100% vouch for. Hell for real, you can make that a even 3 out of 3...

You know how you get rid of the f'n race card? Don't include it in the 52 deck of cards in the first place. But society just doesn't roll that way does it?

Posted by: RedDMV | September 8, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

I know you know this, but you have a anti DT11 based agenda so you're purposely distorting the facts to back up your weak: ""The Skins aren't paying Devin Thomas to "develop"." nonsense.

Posted by: RedDMV

Actually, Red, I was just trying to poke a bit of fun at Michigan State, not engage in a humorless debate about player development in the NFL. You jumped all over it, though, which makes it a bit more fun. As for my anti-DT11 "bias", I don't think you can assume bias from 1 line in 1 post. I wrote in an earlier post:

I don't want to give up on D Thomas, but he doesn't appear as polished and reliable as Mitchell or Kelly. This year, I like Thomas on kickoffs, screens, reverses and spot duty when Santana goes down with the inevitable pulled hammy.

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz

Is that anti-DT11 bias? Hell, I just laid out a game plan for the dude. As for my comment on his polish and reliability, I believe I speak the truth.

Posted by: Kenbeatrizz | September 8, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

The Buffalo Bills have released LT Langston Walker after being unable to trade him. They had been shopping him for picks 19 minutes ago from web

Posted by: 4thFloor | September 8, 2009

Somebody kick Vinny into action ... red-alert Vinny.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 4:20 PM | Report abuse

RedDMV-
What up bro? Tell your Momma I'll be over tonight around 10- dang ho about killed me Friday night....

Posted by: richard_cranium | September 8, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

will_ga, they sell Duvel here in Olympia, WA.
I saw it at both Trader Joe's and Top Foods on Saturday. I've never had it and didn't buy it because it was quite pricey.
Posted by: freakzilla | September 8, 2009

Thanks, we have Trader Joe's near here so I will check. Haven't been but have heard its an interesting store. Duvel looked pricey based on the web site. I figured it would be at the other end of the beer aisle far, far away from the Natural Light, Milwaukee's Best & Icehouse section.

Posted by: will_ga | September 8, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

The Final Word on the Ticket Thang:

People can argue that ticket-holders should be held responsible. God knows we need more responsibility around here. However, let's absolve the Redskins organization from their blog ordained moral mission here and examine what this does from a business standpoint.

It is unlikely that the sued fans will be repeat buyers, and now it is unlikely that new fans who are unsure of their financial future will make the plunge.

Sure, Snidely might cover some of his Six Flags losses by temporarily double dipping (suing and also re-selling the seats), but long term he is destroying the market for the contracts.

Now they'll need a new PR campaign to hype contract sales to a significantly smaller market. Result, increased costs and decreased revenue.

It doesn't take a business major to figure out why other teams don't do this.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | September 8, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

Cork, who is this Jason Tryon you speak of in your column? Is he a corner?

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

Have to admit. Given the fact that *** a miracle did happen *** and the only wide receiver worth a damned in that draft, Malcolm Kelly, recovered and looks to be more than what was expected ... add in Marko Mitchell? Davis and Cooley? Santana Moss and now ARE fitting in the right way?

Let's go Joe Gibbs -> Air Coryell. Air the ball out San Diego old-style with Dan Fouts.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 4:24 PM | Report abuse

RedDMV claims he's black. I don't believe it.

I say he's Red(boned)....

Posted by: 4thFloor | September 8, 2009 4:26 PM | Report abuse

It doesn't take a business major to figure out why other teams don't do this.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | September 8, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

except that several teams admitted to the Post that they sue their fans, and more denied to comment (meaning they do but don't want to admit it)

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 4:27 PM | Report abuse

Redskins keeping of BMW is all about Vinny trying to save face about signing a guy that hadn't played since 2005 and trying to rehabilitate him into a player. Great that BMW lost the weight for his health, but he wasn't a legit NFL tackle back in 2005. It amazes me the Skins would sign the Giants' 3rd string QB to be go on our practice squad instead of Daniels rather than pick up a decent backup lineman or two on the waiver wire over the weekend.

If Bridges who had experience as a starter wasn't considered a decent backup, then how can we justify keeping BMW and D'Anthony Batiste? If either Heyer or Samuels gets hurt, the Skins' passing game is done and Campbell will be gone after the season. I smell a scapegoat and his name is Jim Zorn.

Posted by: wizfan89 | September 8, 2009 4:27 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, we have Trader Joe's near here so I will check. Haven't been but have heard its an interesting store. Duvel looked pricey based on the web site. I figured it would be at the other end of the beer aisle far, far away from the Natural Light, Milwaukee's Best & Icehouse section.

Posted by: will_ga | September 8, 2009 4:23 PM


Selection can vary at different TJ's, but give it a shot.

And yes, it will be with the good beers, not the crap beers.

Trader Joe's, incidentally, doesn't sell crap beer.

Posted by: freakzilla | September 8, 2009 4:29 PM | Report abuse

freakzilla, I wouldn't entertain SkinsNeed. His constant pimping of Todd Collins tipped the imbecile scales long ago...

According to this dude, Stephon Heyer's play in the '08 playoff lost to Seattle was on Heyer alone.

SkinsNeed believes that Heyer single handedly cost the Redskins that game.

Once he posted that pile crap, I stopped taking him seriously.


SkinsneedaGM's logic: Heyer, a career LT, asked to play LT as a ROOKIE, had performed damn well until that point is the sole reason that the Redskins lost that game... Never mind he was lined up against Patrick Kerney who was a pro bowl DE with 14 sacks that year.

SkinsNeed, accept the fact that Todd Collins is a clip-board holding scrub, then get over the fact that Jason Campbell is the STARTING QB of YOUR Washington Redskins.

Deal with it.

Posted by: RedDMV | September 8, 2009 4:30 PM | Report abuse

Langston Walker now now now!!!

Posted by: MonkMossMann | September 8, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

I have never bought tickets of this type before but I have made plenty of big ticket purchases that have contracts, its kind of naive and silly to say they should just wait and see what happens when the tickets are on the market again. That would be irresponsible business on Snyder's part and he didn't make the money he has by doing things like that. He has a contract with these people that spells out what happens in default and they go through the process. Imagine if the situation was reversed, you pay all this money for these tickets and you show up for the game and the stadium is gone and there is no team anymore. Would you wait around to see if the team came back on the market or would you want to sue Snyder immediately to get your money? Snyder performed his part of the deal, he provided the team and stadium and what not, he should have gotten his money for the contract. The only reason you're even talking like this is because tickets don't seem as real a purchase as a house or car. But the same rules apply when you are making a contractually bound big purchase and these people owe him the money they agreed to pay and they owe him all of it, he didn't force them to sign the contract and he performed his side of the bargain.

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse
--------------------------------------------

Incidentally, if Snidely went bankrupt (as you propose), then the proper course of action would be suing Snidely for default while retaining the right to the tickets from the new owners. That is EXACTLY the current situation reverse. And is equally stoopid.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | September 8, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Zfr - not saying that they haven't contracturally agreed to buy the tickets - you're ignoring my point about the "perishable" nature of the tickets. Why would it not make sense, in a market with HUGE demand for those same tickets to say - fine - you can buy your contract out by paying 25% of the contract value (for this year) contingent upon our ability to sell the remaining 3 years of the contract?

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | September 8, 2009 4:02 PM | Report abuse
__________________________________________

That would make perfect sense, John. The problem is, that's not the contract that people signed. No one forced them to sign a contract that stipulated there was no "back out", and its not the Redskins fault that people didn't read or understand the contract that they signed.

Further, like jack pointed out, they did try to negotiate with people, but some refused. In cases where they did settle out of court, the cost of the re-sold tickets was subtracted from the damages.

Posted by: -swb | September 8, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Never mind he was lined up against Patrick Kerney

In the loudest stadium in the NFL, to boot....

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | September 8, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: scampbell1975 | September 8, 2009 4:33 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: scampbell1975 | September 8, 2009 4:33 PM | Report abuse

beeps

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | September 8, 2009 4:33 PM | Report abuse

Red DMV- Looks like I accidentally touched a nerve. Wow. Sorry. All I meant was that Rock's argument was weak--as weak as the race card.

Posted by: bostskin | September 8, 2009 4:34 PM | Report abuse

beep-beep.

Posted by: periculum | September 8, 2009 4:34 PM | Report abuse

Barno do you think Dan is going to bump you up to club level seats for your efforts?

Posted by: mack1 | September 8, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

No I've posted where I usually sit. 50 yd line, front row, behind opponents bench. Prime-time spot for heckling, view of the field is a little hard to see at times, especially when it's nationally televised and the cameras get in the way... but overall its worth every penny.

Posted by: Barno1 | September 8, 2009 4:36 PM | Report abuse

It doesn't take a business major to figure out why other teams don't do this.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | September 8, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

except that several teams admitted to the Post that they sue their fans, and more denied to comment (meaning they do but don't want to admit it)

Posted by: zjfr2 | September 8, 2009 4:27 PM | Report abuse
-----------------------------------------

There's conjecture a-plenty in there. There are some scenarios where suing a fan might make sense - such as structured payments that get dropped over the course of a season, where the team suddenly does have seats it is trying to hawk on short notice.

However, there is little evidence that these are the same type of the 'future' defaults that the Redskins are pursuing.

This is like saying that people who grab nuts outta those little store bins justify the Madoffs of the world - in principle maybe, but in reality there are differences by degrees.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | September 8, 2009 4:38 PM | Report abuse

richard_cranium, you ignorant bastard, what's good?

Tell your wifey that I liked my boxer briefs pressed, not laundry dried. Next time she f's it up my "meatus" will be going across her face.

Let her know that I'm eating more fruits now-a-days. Trust me, she'll know what I mean and understand why...

Also inform her that if she wants to get those gray colored stains off her bed spread she should wash them in hot water and use powder dish-washing detergent?

On a side note, how does my nadsack taste f-boy? Go gargle some sulfuric acid or something.

Posted by: RedDMV | September 8, 2009 4:42 PM | Report abuse

The Buffalo Bills have released LT Langston Walker after being unable to trade him. They had been shopping him for picks
19 minutes ago from web
JasonLaCanfora
Jason La Canfora

Posted by: 4thFloor

Let me text that over to Cerrato. Anyone want a cheeseburger while I'm at it?

Posted by: pgugino | September 8, 2009 4:46 PM | Report abuse

"Really, dude, you're comparing apples and oranges. You're trying to compare Campbell's first year in two different offenses to Collins' performance over five games two seasons ago, in an offense he knew frontwards and backwards -- and it was a performance that ultimately showed Collins' weaknesses and revealed why he's a career backup. It's apples and oranges, and it's not even a comparison that works in your favor. posted by freakzilla."

I didn't see many weaknesses in Collins' performance in '07. But I doubt he'd be able to duplicate it under Zorn.

He was a career backup mostly because he struggled early in Buffalo and got thumbtacked as a second-stringer. It happens. But there's no reason to disrespect that performance at the end of the 2007 season. It was extraordinary. They lost to Seattle, a team that won all its home games but one. Collins was really a lot better than anybody had a right to expect. And under adverse circumstances.

Posted by: Samson151 | September 8, 2009 4:57 PM | Report abuse

I'm tired of reading Joe Gibbs references on this blog. He aint walking through the door from the 80's, early 90's.

Its over..Its done...get over it.

It's a new game these days and Gibbs 2.0 proved it. Its time for these young boys to step up and prove they are worth a NFL roster spot.

That being said..let's see what the Skins can do. None of us are NFL caliber talent evaluators or GM's, although some of you think you are, so let's just see how the season progresses and take it one week at a time.

The GOOD franchises do that. Its not all LEFT or all RIGHT in most team cases. It's wait and see. I'd rather have a decent year with depth and progression each year rather then "blow it up each year mentality".

Get it straight...The Skins are NOT a playoff team yet. YES, I want them to be but sadly, they are not. Negative or questionable reports by ANY report ARE warranted considering this teams performance over the past 10 years or so.

Let's just wait and see and wish them the best and STOP hatin on everything they do wrong. Ya'll just drinkin the hater-aid.

IMO...Skins 10-6 but just miss the playoffs. I really can't pull 11 or more wins out of the schedule.

We all need to face it...the Skins are an AVERAGE team but with some breaks...could be very good.

Plain and simple!

Posted by: TampaBayareaRedskinsfan | September 8, 2009 5:01 PM | Report abuse

I'm so sick of WaPo shovelling their garbage all over this team.

Williams makes the team because of all the "resources" the Skins have put into him? Care to elaborate? What resources would those be - providing a nutrionist? a diet plan? a workout plan and place to exercise and rehab? IE : ALL THE SAME THINGS THEY ALREADY DO FOR EVERY OTHER PLAYER?

Weren't you just telling us last week how Aldridge was "Vinny's guy" and yet he didn't make the team?

Why are you unwilling to concede the fact that the guys that made the team are the ones the coaches felt were most qualified?

Posted by: McMetal | September 8, 2009 5:03 PM | Report abuse

ummm dont remember Collins playing in 08..
And if learning the system takes you from 6-2 to 2-6, who stunk??
The only successful broken play "check down" completed in the preseason, was Collins to Kelly in the second game for 13 yards.... Thats where JC has to step up and get to a second and third Read... No more useless completions short of the down marker.
And when comparing JC to Collins in the two games Collins played in this preseason.. Collins was the better QB. And Zorn came close to admitting it. "game management"

from RedskinsRule.com, aug 16

Here are some facts:

Jason Campbell was taken in the first round a few years ago (one pick after Aaron Rodgers). Todd Collins came from KC a few years ago. Jason Campbell never won a starting QB back with the Redskins. He was handed the job two years ago. Todd Collins took over after Jason went down and won 4 straight games to put the redskins into the playoffs. Jason Campbell threw 13 TD's in 16 games last year. That is less than 1 per game. Horrible by NFL standards for a starting QB. Apparently no team was willing to give the Redskins a 2nd round draft pick to the Skins this summer so they could package the pick with two first round picks to get Jay Cutler. Folks, I think it is about time to open up the competition and "Require" Jason Campbell to "win" the QB spot he was given. What do you think?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
freakzilla wrote:
And speaking of Zorn's system, how did Collins do in HIS first year in that system? He stunk! If you'll think back to last year, one of the storylines coming out Redskins Park was how Collins was struggling to learn Zorn's system.

Zorn admittedly simplified things a good bit for his offense last year. This year, it appears that Campbell & company have a much better grasp on things.

Posted by: freakzilla | September 8, 2009 4:19 PM

Posted by: SkinsneedaGM | September 8, 2009 5:19 PM | Report abuse

McMetal...

The Washington Post's job is to provide facts regarding an issue. They have done so in many regards.

Just because they conflict with you or many others views, doesn't neccesarily make them wrong.

Easiest way to quiet criticism...is winning.

I would love it so much to quiet SI, ESPN, FOX, WashPO, etc etc etc etc etc....but until the REDSKINS prove it on the field...ALL topics are fair game from reporters.

I just want to silence them...but until the Skins do that....none of us fans can really say anything

Posted by: TampaBayareaRedskinsfan | September 8, 2009 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Jason, You must have a beef with Williams. YOU SAID YOU DID not see him do well his last pre season games. Have you ever played in a high level in football or coach it. If not , how do you know if he did well. Come on dude, stop picking on this guy. Give him props. He was out of football, lost 100 pounds and the Skins see it as a work in progress. Stop taking your pod shots at the guy. Jason are you becoming a hater? Will you answer this?

Posted by: tjzukoski | September 8, 2009 5:33 PM | Report abuse

We should trade Devin Thomas for a decent O-lineman. After his poor freshman campaign, he's undoubtedly lost some of his sparkle to GMs, and we wouldn't get a great player, perhaps not even a starter. But he's still a fast, talented 2-round pick with 'upside'. I'd be willing to give up his future potential for a solid, young, versatile O-line 2nd-stringer who can plug a couple holes when our aging O-line is crippled with the inevitable injuries. With Kelly & Davis stepping up and Marko Mitchell looking like this year's Horton-caliber steal, we're suddenly relatively deep at receiver and can afford to let him go. We can always resign Hackett or Eloi if necessary.

Posted by: SammyT1 | September 8, 2009 6:31 PM | Report abuse

I know we're supposed to predict the season here. Nah, let me re-cap the offseason/preseason.

I like Marko Mitchell anyway.

Plus, at least the future is set at DE. Wait, the Redskins drafted a DE, but he's going to star in the NFL as a linebacker. Maybe they'll draft a "true" DE next year. Maybe they'll draft three DE's next year.

The latest waste of cap space is Albert Haynesworth. As others have pointed out, Haynesworth doesn't fit the Redskins system. But he'll contribute if he's healthy, plays hard, stays out of trouble etc. etc.

Meanwhile, DeAngelo Hall may a decent number two corner.

No point in discussing the offensive line -- wow.

And wasn't that offseason action at the QB season a real cluster-happening? Jay Cutler, Mark Sanchez. Am i right that the public perception is Jim Zorn was against all these potential moves? May I please say wow again?

Anyway, no surprise here if the whole purpose of Jason Campbell's life now is to humiliate Dan Snyder and Vincent Cerrato. It won't happen while he's in Redskins uniform however.

Also highly unlikely that Jim Zorn will be here next year, not necessarily a bad idea or anything. But count on a new system next year to go with Dan and Vincent.

A new system to go with all sorts of new players they are going to have to find at Lin backer, corner, QB, Tackle, Guard, Center, Rb, and Defensive End.

No depth, the wrong free agents, chaos at QB, a team profoundly mismanaged.

No need to make a prediction.


Posted by: Pepper5 | September 8, 2009 7:18 PM | Report abuse

Skins OLine picture:
acquire Damon McIntosh or Langston Walker to back up Samuels & Heyer.

Make Mike Williams the next Leonard Davis (aka move him from tackle to guard).

Rinehart, Edwin and Mike Williams backup G/C (although all 3 are shaky).

problem solved until the '10 draft, but lord pls don't let a starter go down...

Posted by: bernard_thompson | September 8, 2009 9:33 PM | Report abuse

"This can't be you're stopping point"

GRAMMAR POLICE!!!

Posted by: WorstSeat | September 8, 2009 10:13 PM | Report abuse

Not that I am a snyderto fan, if they were looking over a cliff I would be the first one to push, but the last couple of drafts would rank in the top ten against the rest of the league. Lets give JC a chance with a few more weopans, if the o-line stays semi healthy we have a shot..Remember the Ravens in early 2000s.

Posted by: BleedBurgandGold | September 8, 2009 11:08 PM | Report abuse

Right or wrong, Snyder will never be able to do right by this city.

Posted by: rickyroge | September 8, 2009 2:35 PM

Im not sure how long you've followed the Skins, but when the FO consistently makes glaring mistakes that 70% of the fans who normally do other things for a living correctly predict will be disasters, there is a problem. The D line was the maginot line compared to the O-Line. But it was ignored in the draft, completely. That's all ya gotta say.

Posted by: kenboy1 | September 9, 2009 1:02 AM | Report abuse

SkinsneedaGM,

Give MW a break! The dude hasn't played in 2-3 years! You think that now he's on the roster, he won't keep working to get better??? BUGES will work on his footwork and pass protection. GAWD, if he can move his feet, his sheer size will limit any pass rush. And as a run blocker, from what I saw this pre-season he pushed EVERYONE around. What the 'Skins should do against the GiNats is run an unbalanced line with both SH and MW on the right, with MW being on the inside. They'd easily be able to run, and then they can let SH be the pass blocker against the LB/DE coming off the edge. Heck, even pull MW left on running plays to the left, whcih still allows SH to play his role on the right.
Let BUGES work his magic! It may take 4 games, but eventually MW will be back to NFL game speed, and his footwork will be better. Have faith. IN BUGES I trust. Cerrato?? He can go to h3ll!

Posted by: wagenstill | September 9, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

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