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Monday Morning H-Back

What happened Sunday was fairly huge to me in this regard - for large chunks of the game the Skins took away New York's two greatest strengths, the run game and the pass rush, and still got dominated. The Giants couldn't run at all for three quarters but still held the ball for 35 minutes. And the offensive line held up decently in the first half, minimizing sacks although there was sufficient pressure to again curtail the vertical game.

New York made the Skins one-dimensional (38 passes to 18 rushes), and crushed them. Washington has no means to win that way right now, while the Giants prospered under those exact circumstances. That's a wide gulf to bridge.

It may be the beginning of the end for the Redskins' playoff hopes. Even 10 wins might not be enough. If Atlanta can, say, beat New Orleans, Minnesota and St. Louis, and Tampa beats, say, Oakland and San Diego, and Carolina, say, beats Denver and New Orleans, that would be three NFC South teams with at least 11 wins. And who knows what records Dallas and Philly finish with? All of a sudden it's a pretty murky picture.

This was a flawed football team in many ways coming into the season. I think most of us understood that on one level or another. The offense was in transition again and any attempt to plug holes were done largely with either the very young - rookies - or the very old and battered. The failure to improve the offensive and defensive lines, both aging and oft-injured, continues to dog the franchise.

"If you can't block, on offense and defense, then you can't win in the NFC East," one player said after the game.

As the season has progressed, most of those deficiencies have become more apparent. While the verdict on the front office, the coaching staff and the draft class remains to be seen, it would be hard to fathom much of a run, even if the Redskins still get into the playoffs. And they will need some upgrades to the roster, and some improvement in the scheme, at least on offense.

Jim Zorn can point to "lack of execution" week after week, and certainly the failure to improve at wide receiver is stifling them, too, but Zorn needs to find a way to coax more points out of his talent (I'm starting to think the lack of a Cam Cameron/experienced offensive coordinator type is looming large right now; Joe Bugel has plenty of experience, but the passing game isn't his specialty, and the run game ain't the problem).

Teams like Baltimore and Miami don't have nearly the kind of high-paid guys the Skins do at skill positions, yet they are relying on less to do more, using the Wildcat (hello - Antwaan Randle El was a college QB), running more gadget plays, showing creative twists each week. We simply haven't seen that here. Maybe having a first time head coach and a first time coordinator are part of that, and over time I am sure Zorn will be able to implement all of his West Coast system, but finding something beyond the Midwest Coast seems in order right now. One reverse and one short option pass aren't enough, not with this outfit unable to reach even 21 points it seems.

Sunday was pretty much the same old thing. If the Skins fall behind by multiple scores and have to deviate from the run game, they are doomed. If Jason Campbell has to drop back more than 30 times, and especially if the opposition has a lead, he is a dead-man walking in the backfield (the Giants loaded up on late sacks and hits on him as Zorn kept going for downfield action even with the game out of reach).

Santana Moss is the only deep threat (not surprised the interception yesterday came on a deep pattern to Randle El over the middle; he's not good down there, doesn't adjust as well to the ball in flight, doesn't have the size to break it up). Teams are jumping all over those bubble screens to Moss now. Defensive coordinators pretty much know that if you double Moss on first down, play the run on second down and double TE Chris Cooley on third down, that's all the Skins have. Randle El may make a few plays here or there, but in the passing game, no one else will.

The drops by James Thrash and Malcolm Kelly were back breakers Sunday. Devin Thomas made a nice run on the reverse, and I applaud the effort to get the ball in his hands in some fashion, but he was completely shut out, again, in the pass game.

And with Clinton Portis so beat up, and the injuries mounting, I'm not sure you can ride him 29 times a game, like in Seattle, and expect to get a ton out of him the next week. I would venture to guess the Ravens will sell out to stop the run Sunday and dare Zorn's aerial venture (we can't call it an "attack," since that actually sounds menacing) to try to beat them.

On defense, the Skins don't have a playmaker at defensive end (Demetric Evans has been their best DE this season by far, and deserves a contract extension) or at outside linebacker (Rocky McIntosh might develop on the weak side), while for most of the season they didn't have a corner who generated any interceptions. When that's the construction of your defense on the edges, you're not going to be truly great, but this group has managed to be very, very good despite it. Just not good enough considering the problems on offense.

End Jason Taylor wasn't even being doubled back in his comfort zone on the right side at times Sunday and still did nothing. If they bring him back at $8.5 million next season there should be an investigation. It's just not happening for him in this defense. Yes, he had one sack taken away by Chris Wilson's offsides penalty, but for most of the game he was blocked far too easily. They will need to start a rebuilding effort at linebacker, too.

I thought Greg Blache needed to attack in numbers a bit more Sunday, although twice when he went Cover-0 he got burned. LaRon Landry still played 30 yards off the line of scrimmage more than I would expect. Eli Manning had a ridiculous amount of time in which to make most critical throws.

The special teams breakdowns are troubling. Shaun Suisham is kicking himself into a corner. After Ryan Plackemeier shanked another punt, and sent one too far into the end zone, and was less than stellar again, I'm not sure how many people figure it's safe to call him the long-term solution at punter. Rookie Justin Tryon struggled to fill Leigh Torrence's shoes on special teams (no surprise there). The special teams penalties are too much for this offense to overcome.

Despite all of that, if the Skins run the table, they probably would get in to the postseason (assuming the NFC South teams feast more on the AFC and kind of knock each other off). If they win three of four - including Philly and San Fran - they could very well be in a tiebreaker situation. Anything less than that, and they are most certainly on the outside looking in, facing perhaps a major rebuilding.

By Jason La Canfora  |  December 1, 2008; 8:15 AM ET
 
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Comments

Let me be the FIRST to say that I think we beat the Ravens Sunday!

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 8:27 AM | Report abuse

From the previous post. Agreed with all of the above, except for couple things:

1. The part about Thomas getting shut out, did they run any plays in his direction? Did they try and get him the ball, because I don't recall that happening.

2. Thrash sucks at this point, he contributes NOTHING. JZ calls a play for him on third and 10, and wont call a play for Thomas?? Makes ZERO sense.

3. The inevitable 'Leigh Torrence' dig at the FO. Did you happen to notice that the guy signed to replace him, had his second interception in 3 games, and should have had another one, if not for SSprings....

my previous post...

yeah, I'm still pissed. It just seems to me like we're trotting out the same game plan, week, after week, after week. Last 3 games they've scored what, 4 touchdowns, and this has been going on for a while, and NOT ONE CHANGE HAS BEEN MADE. Its like they're doing the same thing over, and over, and over, and are surprised at the results aren't any different.

Here is what I'd do:

1. Thrash returns punts, and is the #5 receiver, not anything more.

2. Thomas and Kelly are #2, and #3 receivers.

3. Jansen benched, Heyer starts.

4. Portis sits till he's fully healed. No more trying to play hurt, because he's only hurting himself. Betts is more than capable. Not ripping on Portis by any stretch, but he's not helping the team in his current physical stage.

5. Change the game plan, ADAPT it to take advantage of the team that you're playing.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 8:37 AM | Report abuse

Boy, I can't wait until JLC gets over the damn Leigh Torrence thing...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 8:37 AM | Report abuse

By the time we rebuild the lines, our skill players will be gone.

This team is mired in rebuilding.

Posted by: Rypien11 | December 1, 2008 8:37 AM | Report abuse

JLC you still think the skins need to hurry up and resign JC?

Posted by: jonthefisherman | December 1, 2008 8:38 AM | Report abuse

Jason La Canfora, I am so sick of reading your negative rantings after every loss. When they win, you still find the negative, but at least its balanced with SOME positive "opinions". Yes, they have problems passing the ball, yes the defense cant hold up when the offense doesnt maintain possession and score some more points. But you go on and f*&^%ing on about every little thing, even Tryon sucking replacing LEIGH F*&^%ING TORRENCE! STFU about LEIGH F*&^%ING TORRENCE! Go ahead and bash the draft class again, no really, please do it again, because it makes you feel so good to stick that hot poker in the side of Cerrato after you're "innocent call to the league offices" to try to cost this franchise a draft pick didnt work. GO F^CK yourself you fat little bmore donut dust on your face, bad taste in wardrobe, worse taste in music, tubby piece of trash! Go write somewhere else and let Reid take over!

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 1, 2008 8:40 AM | Report abuse

While I don't have that level of hatred, the Leigh Torrence thing seems to have been beat to death. Its not like the Redskisn are giving up huge chunks of yardage on teams, punt coverage.

Brown, you catch Ry Clark LIGHT UP Wes Welker?? WOW...just wow...that was almost Jack Tatum-like.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 8:46 AM | Report abuse

no way we beat the Ravens

Heyer needs to start, and so does Rinehart and Geisenger

Posted by: jsmavisd | December 1, 2008 8:47 AM | Report abuse

Frankly, even though I love the Redskins, I love watching Richie Rich and his flunke Vinny the Weasel look like idiots even more. The whole coaching carousel, the draft blow-up, and zero aerial attack. Why, it's like Joe Gibbs never left!

Posted by: Schroeder12 | December 1, 2008 8:48 AM | Report abuse

Greg,

That was a great hit, I do not agree with the penalty he got, but I bet Welker had his head on a swivel after that.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 1, 2008 8:49 AM | Report abuse

Brown, you catch Ry Clark LIGHT UP Wes Welker?? WOW...just wow...that was almost Jack Tatum-like.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 8:46 AM

They should have checked Welker's pulse after that hit! It was worse than the Hit Stick on Madden!

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 8:50 AM | Report abuse

Rookie Justin Tryon struggled to fill Leigh Torrence's shoes on special teams (no surprise there).

Please tell me we are not back on this! Especially since you made a post about Torrence not downing the ball a week or two before he was cut.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 1, 2008 8:51 AM | Report abuse

That was a great hit, I do not agree with the penalty he got, but I bet Welker had his head on a swivel after that.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 1, 2008 8:49 AM

If by "on a swivel" you mean "almost came off", then yes.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 8:52 AM | Report abuse

Flound, no doubt, the back of Welkers helmet was the first thing to hit the ground. I was surprised he got up.

Still pissed at what I saw yesterday......

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 8:53 AM | Report abuse

Everything about this post was 100% correct and dead on. What positives can be found from yesterday's game? None that I can think of aside from the reverse to Thomas and maybe the INT by Hall. Yeah, they stopped the run but where did that get them?

This team will not even sniff the playoffs until at least 2015, if not later.

At least we can have fun watching Dallas get beaten by Pitt, Balt, and NY.

And you're right jsmavisd, no chance we even come close to beating Balt...

Posted by: Cobain | December 1, 2008 8:56 AM | Report abuse

jm, agreed. Jla, needs to back up his LT claims with some facts, otherwise let it go.

Like, since they let LTorrence go, the STeams have fallen to last in the league. If there has been no change, then thats just grinding his axe...

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 8:56 AM | Report abuse

If we went full force trying to rebuild the O-Line its this off season to get 5 guys we want to say are the right guys, and 1 regular season to let them gel to the point where they can anticipate this teams scheme. The question is Draft guys vs FA's, either way we should look for 2 Tackles and a Guard for next years line.

I think on the D-lines we need to look into grabbing 1 DT that can be an every down big man to replace Griff and complement Goldy and Monty and 2 DE's that can do what Evans does for us, more balance in talent less speed rushers, I see us tossing Taylor and Daniels this year.

Finally the LB core, Blades is just not there, he is going to be a relief guy for us at best. We may want to just get the best available 2 Free Agent LB's this off season and look to the draft next off season.

Posted by: alex35332 | December 1, 2008 8:58 AM | Report abuse

TonyButterFingersHomo1 I have no problem with you disagree with JLC. However, the personal attacks are really uncalled for. There is no need for them at all.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 1, 2008 8:59 AM | Report abuse

I like JZ, but I am also surprised by the lack of imagination in his game plan recently. I know his WCO may not be fully implemented and that may be the reason he doesn't want to add another offensive schemes and such. They need to get Heyer some playing time the rest of the year. I'd like to see them draft a LT early in th '09 draft. They need to get another WR who can who can make plays either in the draft or via FA. On the defense, they need more speed at LB and a pocket collasping DT. I like Horton, but I think he's better suited as the #3 saftey because LL IMO is better at SS for the skins, so if the skins draft a FS or move Springs to FS I wouldn't mind that.

Posted by: TWISI | December 1, 2008 8:59 AM | Report abuse

I would venture to guess the Ravens will sell out to stop the run Sunday and dare Zorn's aerial venture (we can't call it an "attack," since that actually sounds menacing) to try to beat them.
Which is the same thing teams have been doing for ten weeks now.
And B'more has the tools to do it.
And Philly has the tools to do it.
The others, not so much. But there will be no gimmes Up Here.
I'd love to see a dominant offensive performance. I don't think you can claim that we don't have enough talent to make it happen.

Posted by: daggar | December 1, 2008 8:59 AM | Report abuse

Jason,

Hold tight my man. You are right on point about this team. Especially with regards to the ridiculous stewardship led by Danny/Vinny. They have managed to win games by the closest of margins, and all the problems you pointed out have come back to roost. This team has FOREVER to go to truly be considered a playoff contender every year! Those who bash you are either in denial or are on Danny's payroll (i.e. in the dumpster for season's tickets...how much to park?)

Posted by: wagenstill | December 1, 2008 9:00 AM | Report abuse

i hear that while Gibbs was in the booth watching the game, he just started muttering, "we got a great bunch of guys, they fight their guts out, thrash is a core guy"

Posted by: alex35332 | December 1, 2008 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Alex, agreed. Not sure which route to go in FA, DL, or OL.

Can someone post what the amount of money freed up, if JTay were let go salary cap wise??

So if Springs and MWash are shown the door, its roughly a savings of close to 12-15 million correct??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Too True To Argue:
1. O line and D Line need major re-tooling, and it's embarrassing that the front office has not done more on this since we have not had a dominant line on either side of the ball since...? 1991?

2. The passing game is completely anemic and in this league teams are going to force you to throw the ball, so you have to be able to do it so defenses will back off the line.

3. Defense is doing its job, keeping the game close thru 3 quarters in every game we've played, but if the Offense keeps going 3 and out every series any defense will wear down and give up some points.

4. Blache has many strengths as a coach but designing blitzes is NOT one of them. The Skins' D can't blitz to save its life. Horton can get there and that's about it. Otherwise, time after time, the Skins did almost nothing to disguise the blitzers. Even a high school QB can figure it out when 9 guys are at the line and hit the hot route receiver. This is Madden 101 stuff. And even with 7 and 8 guys blitzing, the Skins still can't get to the QB. And, worse, while we blitz all these guys the DB's don't jam the receivers so the slant is there for the taking.

Posted by: TS_Alfabet | December 1, 2008 9:02 AM | Report abuse

"Defensive coordinators pretty much know that if you double Moss on first down, play the run on second down and double TE Chris Cooley on third down, that's all the Skins have."

Shhhhhh...... We can't let anybody know what we're going to do everytime we get the ball!!!!!

Posted by: REDneckSKINhead | December 1, 2008 9:04 AM | Report abuse

The trend started by getting rid of Shaun Alexander and we should lose all guys on the team named Shaun or Shawn. Also maybe we could trade our receivers to another team as DB's because they are great at knocking balls down instead of catching them. I know we are in the building process, but there are too many holes. The screens kill us, which tells me linebacker is an issue, O line, and D line. Too much to build, but the good news... We still have a winning record. If you would have told me we would be in the playoff hunt in the beginning of the year I would have said your crazy. So despite all the changes we are exceeding expectations.

Posted by: bonzo74 | December 1, 2008 9:06 AM | Report abuse

The Hall acquisition resulted in a Tryon vs Torrence decision in terms of the roster spot. (I actually think that Erasmus "no show" James should have been cut.) Those of you who think that it was Hall vs Torrence are just wrong. And by the way, Tryon did NOTHING positive yesterday that I noticed. He whiffed on a chance to down a punt on the 5 and I believe was called for offsides as a gunner. Tryon was not the reason we lost, he just added to the pile of misery on display yesterday.

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 9:07 AM | Report abuse

I like blanche as a steward for the D, but I think long term someone else is going to need to take that role, how can a old D-Line coach have a team with a great secondary, average LB and crummy line?

Posted by: alex35332 | December 1, 2008 9:10 AM | Report abuse

"Those of you who think that it was Hall vs Torrence are just wrong"

Who was the 4th corner before Hall came on board, versus who is the 4th corner now that Hall is on the team?

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:12 AM | Report abuse

Up for argument:

1. What about Jason Campbell? Does he deserve the BIG money after this season? This may be THE critical decision of the off-season because we will be tied to him for the next 4-5 years if we give him a huge contract. To be fair to Jason, Zorn should realize that he is simply not a drop-back QB. He does pretty darn well out of the shotgun, so Zorn needs to adjust to his players (that's what GREAT coaches do, not the other way around). So the next time that a team stacks the line to stop the run, the Skins need to go into shotgun mode and let Jason show us that he can find the open receiver-- because there ARE open receivers out there. We have 4 games left in this season to find out whether Jason is THE GUY for us before we commit to a huge, long-term contract with him.

Posted by: TS_Alfabet | December 1, 2008 9:13 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: CindyBoren | December 1, 2008 9:14 AM | Report abuse

If you love the team and not the players, the following players have the rest of the season to prove their worth:

Randel El (his middle name is "fair catch"
Thrash (I betcha Yoder has more catches)
Jansen (paycut and backup to Heyer)
Betts (a backup who doesn't backup)
Taylor (the Fins got our pick and are 7-5, too)
Davis (trade for a low round pick and
move on)
Washington (admit it, he's done)
Collins (bring in a guy who'll challenge
Campbell or replace him
when he's not been effective-- the overthrows and last minute
throws have nothing to do
with "system changes")

Bring in in FA '09:

Derrick Ward (the perfect complement to
a tired, beat up Portis)
Ocho Cinco (still better than Randle El,
Thrash, et al.)

Draft: Percy Harvin and the hurdling linebacker from Boston College.

Be Realistic: The Skins are a flawed team in need of a patient fanbase and some minor changes on offense. 2010 will be better than 2008. Deal with it people.

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 1, 2008 9:14 AM | Report abuse

"I like blanche as a steward for the D, but I think long term someone else is going to need to take that role, how can a old D-Line coach have a team with a great secondary, average LB and crummy line?"

Posted by: alex35332 | December

The secondary gets the #1 picks, linebackers get a #2, the line gets leftovers. The results are fathomable.
(I wish we would stop blowing high picks on rookies with bad knees.)

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 9:15 AM | Report abuse

Those who bash you are either in denial or are on Danny's payroll (i.e. in the dumpster for season's tickets...how much to park?)

Posted by: wagenstill | December 1, 2008 9:00 AM

I don't think folks here have issue with WHAT JLC is saying...it's how he says it and when he says it. And the fact that he has an axe to grind with the Skins FO hurts his credibility when he does have legit criticisms. This team is built wrong and has put itself in a situation where mediocrity is the norm -- this is true. But to bring up personnel issues IN SEASON is moot and pointless and to do it EVERY WEEK is sophmoric.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 9:15 AM | Report abuse

Our team is average at best. We don't deserve the playoffs this year and we won't get there. We need to focus on next season NOW.

The question remains: Are we in a rebuilding year or yet another rebuilding decade????

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:17 AM | Report abuse

But to bring up personnel issues IN SEASON is moot and pointless and to do it EVERY WEEK is sophmoric.

Amen bro...Amen....


Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:18 AM | Report abuse

IMO I think it will be better to address the D in the offseason. I'd be surprised if the O can make a significant jump next year because the skins are most likely going to have different players starting on the O-line and JZ still growing in his role as OC.

Posted by: TWISI | December 1, 2008 9:18 AM | Report abuse

JZ still growing in his role as OC.

I'm not sure that Zorn is the OC. Isn't it either Stump, or someone else?

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

"Those of you who think that it was Hall vs Torrence are just wrong"

Who was the 4th corner before Hall came on board, versus who is the 4th corner now that Hall is on the team?

Posted by: BeantownGreg

Prior to the trade, Tryon was not doing anything. After the trade Tryon took on Torrence's special team responsibilities. So it looks to me that it certainly was Torrence vs Tryon. Is Hall an upgrade for the fourth corner or third corner? Yes. Is Tryon an upgrade for the special teams? Nope.

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

Toddcoat...Toddcoat...Toddcoat...Toddcoat..

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

IMO I think it will be better to address the D in the offseason. I'd be surprised if the O can make a significant jump next year because the skins are most likely going to have different players starting on the O-line and JZ still growing in his role as OC.

Posted by: TWISI | December 1, 2008 9:18 AM

What? The defense is ranked in the Top 5 and you want to go to the D first? This offense needs a COMPLETE OVERHAUL and if you have to choose, you could wait a year or two to fully address the D. I want this team to stop thinking skill positions and get the lines straight!

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 9:22 AM | Report abuse

Driley,

Why would we waste a 1st round pick in the only spot on the team we are any good?

Posted by: alex35332 | December 1, 2008 9:22 AM | Report abuse

What concerns me about this season is that the Skins are exceeding expectations and are more competitive then people thought. In the beginning of the year no big splashes by Danny, but now with how the season is turning out, we will trade away our draft picks and make impulsive signings in the off season. Being 7-5 with the team we have is unreal. I don't think we should blow up the team just get better at, shall we say, pruning to create new growth.

Posted by: bonzo74 | December 1, 2008 9:23 AM | Report abuse

"Those of you who think that it was Hall vs Torrence are just wrong"

Who was the 4th corner before Hall came on board, versus who is the 4th corner now that Hall is on the team?

Sorry, can you just answer the question above??

Also, can you quantify this statement with some facts:

"Is Tryon an upgrade for the special teams? Nope"

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:24 AM | Report abuse

One legitimate front office question is whether decisions are being made about personnel based on purely football considerations, or things like P.R., personal like or dislike for a player, etc..?

seems like teams that consistently win have a GM that can serve as a firewall against an owner's natural tendency to meddle with his team and destroy it thru stupid decisions that undercut getting the best players.

i'm not a Danny basher but it seems like the Skins continually suffer from this kind of poor decision-making that a good GM would prevent. There have been some good player acquisitions but they are foiled again and again by the poor ones that keep us in mediocrity.

Posted by: TS_Alfabet | December 1, 2008 9:25 AM | Report abuse

brownwood26

Yes I'd go D first in the draft. The LB's are old and the backups they have now are just that..backup. They need another DT in the worst way.. one who collaspe the pocket on obvious passing downs. I'd also like a FS becasue I like LL move at SS.

Posted by: TWISI | December 1, 2008 9:25 AM | Report abuse

Go "no huddle" from shotgun and have the receivers run routes 15 yds up the field.

Posted by: gregskins | December 1, 2008 9:26 AM | Report abuse

Alex,

I did not say we wasted a first round pick by picking safeties. I said that has been the emphasis and I inferred that the lines have suffered in the balance. I will say that we wasted three second round picks this year.

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 9:26 AM | Report abuse

Why does our offense need a total overhaul? Far from it! We have a great set of players on the offensive side of the ball. We are missing one or two key pass protectors on the line and a QB. That is hardly an overhaul. Besides, we already have two QBs capable of getting it done. Unfortunately, neither of them has been nor will be given a chance.

Yes, I do believe that TC and Colt both have better pocket presence than JC. I also believe both see the field better and are equally capable (if not more so)of running this mid-west coast offense.

Please don't kid yourself by believing that JC is our franchise QB of the future. He is not. He simply isn't good enough.

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:28 AM | Report abuse

If we're going to agonize over players that we "let go", can we please agonize over those that we truly missed...

Ryan Clark
the 2nd rounder that went with Champ to Denver
Derrick Dockery
Lavar (I may be alone on this one)
B. Mitch...he did his thing and we overpaid a bunch of guys that did nothing
Stephen Davis...though he only had like 1 good year after we let him go
Brad Johnson...not the best QB, but Jeff George was better???
B. Lloyd (maybe not really, but kinda)

Posted by: moo21 | December 1, 2008 9:30 AM | Report abuse

So, Beantown, you are telling me that Tryon is playing better than Torrence in his old position? Did you see yesterday's game?

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 9:31 AM | Report abuse

What concerns me about this season is that the Skins are exceeding expectations and are more competitive then people thought. In the beginning of the year no big splashes by Danny, but now with how the season is turning out, we will trade away our draft picks and make impulsive signings in the off season. Being 7-5 with the team we have is unreal. I don't think we should blow up the team just get better at, shall we say, pruning to create new growth.

Posted by: bonzo74 | December 1, 2008 9:23 AM | Report abuse

Please tell me you are kidding! We were in the freaking playoffs a year ago. This is the type of complacency and acceptance of mediocrity that permits Danny Boy to be able to collect more money hand over fist despite his teams continued mediocrity.

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:31 AM | Report abuse

moo21,
Marcus Mason

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:33 AM | Report abuse

Riley, you gonna answer my questions about the 4th corner or not?

LTorrence, versus Tryon is moot, unless you can provide to me, where the special teams have suffered these quantifiable lapses, since Torrence left.

Of all the things to harp on, this was probably not one of them.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:35 AM | Report abuse

Yes I'd go D first in the draft. The LB's are old and the backups they have now are just that..backup. They need another DT in the worst way.. one who collaspe the pocket on obvious passing downs. I'd also like a FS becasue I like LL move at SS.

Posted by: TWISI | December 1, 2008 9:25 AM

They need to address the line, regardless of which side of the ball. If this team drafts another damn DB in the 1st round, I'm through.

Soup17, you can't be serious...Collins is a journeyman QB who should be a 3rd QB in any system but Saunders and you haven't seen Colt Brennan in an NFL game. To say they're better than a guy who is posting a 90 QB rating is laughable. Whether JC is great or not is not the issue; it's whether anything better is available.

And yes, this offense DOES need an overhaul. All 5 O-line positions and at least 2 WRs is an overhaul in my book. And that's not to mention a replacement for Portis (who could literally fall to pieces at any moment) and Sellers (age 34).

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 9:35 AM | Report abuse

moo21 -

Stephen Davis was a beast for 3 years, then was marginalized by Steve Spurrier's none n done offense. He then went on to run another 2 good years w/Carolina and burned us when he played for the Rams.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 1, 2008 9:38 AM | Report abuse

Please tell me you are kidding! We were in the freaking playoffs a year ago. This is the type of complacency and acceptance of mediocrity that permits Danny Boy to be able to collect more money hand over fist despite his teams continued mediocrity.

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:31 AM

Dude, YOU'RE the one joking...WE'RE 2 GAMES BETTER THAN THIS TIME LAST YEAR! And yet you're pointing to last year's playoff berth and this year's mediocrity?

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 9:38 AM | Report abuse

a 90 QB rating is laughable...correct indeed. I laugh at it every time I watch him play.

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:39 AM | Report abuse

There is no way the Redskins will beat the Ravens. Baltimore is better D wise and on offense with a rookie quarteback,light years ahead of the mundane Skins offense. I'm really getting tired of going to Fed Ex,the team is mediocre,the mangement side which mires us in this dreck,even worse. The Kool Aid has gone sour. Face It.

Posted by: ridgely1 | December 1, 2008 9:40 AM | Report abuse

Yesterday's game (heck, the last 4 games) was the best reason for coach to start working in the young players into the game. It's not likely with the way we are playing now that we will make the playoffs. Even if we do squeak in, we have no chance of winning against our likely playoff opponents.

I would like to see what the younger players can do in game situations. If they truly are the teams future, then start working on the future now.

Als - I don't agree with those giving Coach Zorn a pass because it's his first year here. Too many mistakes, penalties, missed tackles, dropped passes, confusion over plays and substituion, etc. etc.

Doc Walker said after halftime that Coach Zorn had given an inspirational speech to the team. Coach Stay Mediu apparently needs a different match to light a fire uner these guys.

I've been around the Redskins since Griffith Stadium. I cannot remember a time when we got such a poor product and effort from our team after showing such promise earlier in the season.

I used to follow the Redskins to Baltimore to watch them play the Colts at Memorial Stadium. This team is starting to remind me of the Colts during their last couple of seasons under Irsay in Baltimore.

Very sad really. I'm still a huge Skins fan, and always will be. Just very disappointed...

Posted by: captjim | December 1, 2008 9:40 AM | Report abuse

Here is the list of O-Line FA's for 2009 anyone think we should go after any of these guys.

Matt Birk, UFA, Minnesota Vikings
Birk is a Pro Bowl center who has gotten the job done for the Vikings for the last decade. He’s fairly athletic for a lineman and is playing alongside another great lineman, guard Steve Hutchinson, making Birk’s life even easier on the field. He’s grounded in Minnesota, so the chances of him choosing to leave seem slim at the moment. However, Minnesota is grooming John Sullivan in hopes that he will eventually replace Birk.

Marc Colombo, UFA, Dallas Cowboys
Although he was injury prone early in his career, Colombo has become a solid tackle in Dallas. He allowed just a single sack in his first go round with the Cowboys and he has since been a big reason for the success of the running game and the protection afforded to Tony Romo. At 29, teams will consider the fact that he probably has several seasons left in him.

Mike Goff, UFA, San Diego Chargers
While the Chargers would probably prefer to keep Goff, the franchise has been effective in drafting and developing linemen and might look for Goff’s replacement at a better price. Goff has been a leader who simply goes about his business and players like running back Ladainian Tomlinson have benefited from his level of play. Goff has played for a quality line for some time and he’s a big part of the equation when it comes to success.

Jordan Gross, UFA, Carolina Panthers
A first round pick in 2003, Gross earned a starting role in his rookie season and held that role as a tackle for the entire season. His ability to step in and play well right away paid off for the Panthers, as the team put together a run to an NFC Championship. He’s continued being a starter since that rookie season and is a solid player. Carolina slapped the franchise tag on him for this season, and chances are he will be another team come ’09.

Mark Tauscher, UFA, Green Bay Packers
Tauscher is a seventh round pick that became a success story. In his first season in the NFL, he was forced into a starting role because of an injury to another player. Tauscher isn’t an elite player, but he is solid in his role as a starter and hasn’t missed a game since 2002. Tauscher could be at the top of many team’s lists because he could come cheaper than some of the other free agent lineman, but could be nearly or equally effective.

Other Offensive Lineman
Stacy Andrews, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Jordan Black, UFA, Houston Texans
Vernon Carey, UFA, Miami Dolphins
George Foster, UFA, Detroit Lions
Chris Gray, UFA, Seattle Seahawks
Pete Kendall, UFA, Washington Redskins
Seth McKinney, UFA, Cleveland Browns
Jon Runyan, UFA, Philadelphia Eagles
Tra Thomas, UFA, Philadelphia Eagles
Fred Weary, UFA, Houston Texans
John Welbourn, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs


Posted by: Flounder21 | December 1, 2008 9:42 AM | Report abuse

brownwood26

Agreed on the issues of both lines. However, I think concentrating on the front seven on the D will be more fruitful. Moving from #5 (scoring) to #1 on D is more attainable than from #28 (scoring) to #5 on O given the lack of draft picks and potentially limited $$ for FA.

Posted by: TWISI | December 1, 2008 9:42 AM | Report abuse

Next declaration for Jasno: JC is not the answer. I figure he will first speculate about that after either the Ravens game or whichever one they lose after that.

Posted by: Zornado | December 1, 2008 9:44 AM | Report abuse

To hate on anything in this Monday Morning H-Back is to be in complete denial. Does the Torrence thing get old, yeah sorta and maybe thats the one minor bone pick (although I agree with driley), but Jasno calls this (and has been) pretty much on the nose. Those talking about "tone" are looking to deflect their angst over this team.

That said, I also agree with many of Beantown's suggestions going forward.

Sadly we don't have many players who are stepping up and making plays.

How much is it going to destroy you to see Falcons in the playoffs? It will me, but it is going to happen.

After that game, my "positivity" is at empty. If we make a run, GREAT, and sunday night I will plant my azz in front of the TV and scream myself hoarse like the sucker I am, but I don't see it in this squad right now.

My goats of the game:

- Thrash. If I hear "good guy", "good christian", "real redskin", "Hard worker" or even "special teams stawlwart" about this dude again I am going to pull my spleen out my ear. Last time I checked none of those descriptions won many football games. To me the failure to replace this guy on the roster was a major failure.

- Shaun Springs. His "tweener" role was a big let down. No plexico and we can't shut their passing game down with springs as the floating DB weapon. And I haven't seen field UN-awareness like that wood he laid on D-Hall since the last time I went to a A-baseball game.

- Jansen=power rankings at this point

- Swiss Ham is a joke

- Moss. I love Santana, but the dude has key drops everygame. Yeah some of the catches are not perfect but big time WRs make those catches more than he does.

- ARE I am so over this dude.

Posted by: chrislarry | December 1, 2008 9:44 AM | Report abuse

Beantown,

If you read my post I said that Hall is an upgrade at fourth corner. Got it? Now for your infatuation with Tryon, I don't get it. The fact that Torrence was ahead of Tryon on the depth chart for both the fourth corner postion and the special teams slots means that perhaps the coaches thought that Torrence was the better player than Tryon. Tryon was kept for two reasons, the first is that he was signed for a longer period, the second is that he was a "Vinny" pick. The on-field contribution did not seem to have much sway in the decision. And since Tryon has been elevated in his position have you noticed ANY contribution he has made? By the way, close your eyes to the penalty he caused and the muffed downing of the punt from yesterday.

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 9:46 AM | Report abuse

Let's see.....the Giants beat the Ravens 30-10 (by 20 points). The Giants beat the Skins 23-7 (16 points) so by my calculations we played them better than the Ravens did.

Posted by: Lisa_R | December 1, 2008 9:46 AM | Report abuse

Devensive Line:

Julius Peppers, UFA, Carolina Panthers
A freakish athlete, Peppers struggled in ’07, but has come back strong in ’08. Teams will be lining up to try and lure him away from Carolina with a huge contract offer. The 6’7” end has nine sacks and five forced fumbles through ten games. He could be the top free agent player as teams look to add an end that has had double-digit sack totals four times in six seasons, including 13 in ’06. He also has four career interceptions and has been making quarterback’s lives miserable since he entered the league. Peppers probably shouldn’t be able to do some of the things that he can and many teams would prefer to have those things happening for them rather than against them.

Albert Haynesworth, UFA, Tennessee Titans
Haynesworth has had his share of controversy surrounding him, but lately he’s turned things around and has focused on simply playing the game. He has improved upon his ’07 season when he made six sacks and 40 tackles in 13 games. Through week eleven he has 39 tackles, seven sacks, and two forced fumbles. The Titans look like a different team on defense depending on whether or not Haynesworth is on the field; with him on the field they are one of the best defenses in the league because of the pressure he took off of others. Expect Tennessee to work hard to keep him in hopes that he continues to bolster their defensive play as a whole.

Terrell Suggs, UFA, Baltimore Ravens
Being a converted linebacker has helped Suggs become a defensive end that can track the ball above average. In his first five seasons, Suggs had 299 tackles and 45 sacks to his credit. Through eleven weeks of the current season he is putting together another strong showing with 47 tackles, five sacks, and two interceptions. Suggs may not be as rewarded as Peppers or Haynesworth will be in free agency, but he will certainly be pursued by a number of teams who want to save a little money and still come away with a quality defensive end. Baltimore is constantly pumping out quality defensive players, so they may not be willing to match a big offer if one comes along, but they will miss Suggs if they lose him.

Bertrand Berry, UFA, Arizona Cardinals
Berry has four sacks and two forced fumbles for the Cardinals in eight games of action. He may not be the most coveted potential free agent at his position, but he’s definitely effective when he’s healthy and playing his best. He’ll be looked at as a role player on the market and there’s a decent chance that the Cardinals will move on.

Other Defensive Linemen
Jonathan Babineaux, UFA, Atlanta Falcons
Bertrand Berry, UFA, Arizona Cardinals
Kevin Carter, UFA, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Shaun Cody, UFA, Detroit Lions
Tank Johnson, UFA, Dallas Cowboys
John Thornton, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Marcus Tubbs, UFA, Seattle Seahawks


Posted by: Flounder21 | December 1, 2008 9:46 AM | Report abuse

Not a particularly impressive bunch of OL prospects. Gross is the most intriguiging, and will cost the most. Andrews, might be the guy to plug in at RT, or RG next year. I'm thinking that both Kendall, and Thomas as well as Jansen need to be replaced.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:47 AM | Report abuse

"But to bring up personnel issues IN SEASON is moot and pointless and to do it EVERY WEEK is sophmoric."

No, it's not. Deciding whether Jon Jansen can start for a playoff team is critical for the team right now. Picking up Deangelo Hall could prove to be a critical move during the season. Making the move to drop James Thrash down the depth chart could be a critical move for this team.

Ignoring personnel issues in season would be one of the most juvenile and irresponsible things this team could do.

Posted by: psps23 | December 1, 2008 9:48 AM | Report abuse

riley, here is your post:

The Hall acquisition resulted in a Tryon vs Torrence decision in terms of the roster spot. (I actually think that Erasmus "no show" James should have been cut.) Those of you who think that it was Hall vs Torrence are just wrong. And by the way, Tryon did NOTHING positive yesterday that I noticed. He whiffed on a chance to down a punt on the 5 and I believe was called for offsides as a gunner. Tryon was not the reason we lost, he just added to the pile of misery on display yesterday

Where did you say that Hall is an upgrade at 4th corner??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:50 AM | Report abuse

I've been around the Redskins since Griffith Stadium. I cannot remember a time when we got such a poor product and effort from our team after showing such promise earlier in the season.

Posted by: captjim | December 1, 2008 9:40 AM

I've been around the Skins since just befor FedEx Field and I remember going 7-1 and missing the playoffs. This is not worse...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 9:52 AM | Report abuse

I more or less agree with Brownwood on the O's needs. Except I think we only will need 1-WR as I still think the rookies may work out and deserve at least another season to prove themselves, at the very least they have improved over the season (going from zero play time to at least being on the field). I also agree that we will need a new FB in a year or two (how long did Alstot play till?) and that CP will be in need of a real backup who will be his replacement when he is done.

Posted by: alex35332 | December 1, 2008 9:52 AM | Report abuse

28th in points this season. Most likely out of the playoff race barring a miracle. A definite loss coming up this Sunday. Are you watching the same team I am?

We beat a few bad teams by a few points. Our O-line is terrible. John Jansen is HORRIFIC. JC can't make a quick decision to save his life. This team is terrible. I'm by no means satisfied with THIS YEARS TEAM.

2 GAMES BETTER THAN THIS TIME LAST YEAR...we aren't playing last years schedule jack a$$. Besides, your argument favors digression rather than progression.

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:52 AM | Report abuse

not keeping Marcus Mason, drafting Nemo Broughton when Chris Canty was available, Letting Pierce and Ryan Clark go. A ffew of the many FO blunders. There have been some positives but not enough of them IMHO.

Posted by: Predator48 | December 1, 2008 9:53 AM | Report abuse

Ignoring personnel issues in season would be one of the most juvenile and irresponsible things this team could do.

Posted by: psps23 | December 1, 2008 9:48 AM

You're missing what I said...it's not for JLC to talk about during the season. That's for Vinny to work on and for the coaches. Doc Walker refuses to talk personnel in-season because you can't do anything about it. You aren't going to pick up a significant upgrade over Jansen in-season. You won't get an elite pass rusher off the street. And since JLC looks for any reason to bash the FO he comes off as childish when talking personnel in-season.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 9:56 AM | Report abuse

Beantown.
Look at my 9:20 am post in reply.

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 9:56 AM | Report abuse

"I am going to pull my spleen out my ear"

Dude, do mine too, if no changes to this offense are made.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:57 AM | Report abuse

not keeping Marcus Mason, drafting Nemo Broughton when Chris Canty was available, Letting Pierce and Ryan Clark go. A

Posted by: Predator48 | December 1, 2008 9:53 AM | Report abuse


Pass the ice pick please.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 1, 2008 9:57 AM | Report abuse

Mark Tauscher on the O-line. I think he's solid enough. Gross another but he'd cost. On D..T-sizzle if the Ravens are foolish enough to let him hit the market. I thought Dockett from the Cardnials was a FA. Dansby is another FA I'd look for. A cheap WR FA I'd look at is Ingram from the Seahawks. It would mean the end of the road for Trash but Ingram should help the other WR get more versed in the passing game.

Posted by: TWISI | December 1, 2008 9:59 AM | Report abuse

Is Hall an upgrade for the fourth corner or third corner? Yes. Is Tryon an upgrade for the special teams? Nope.

The vast upgrade on the 4th corner compared to the relative staying the same on special teams.

Pick your battles.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 10:00 AM | Report abuse

2 GAMES BETTER THAN THIS TIME LAST YEAR...we aren't playing last years schedule jack a$$. Besides, your argument favors digression rather than progression.

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 9:52 AM

This year's schedule is tougher, @sshat! And two games better. Stop being pissed about an ugly loss yesterday long enough to think clearly. We'll be favored to win 3 of the last 4 games and winning those would put us in position to make the playoffs. Get a grip, moron.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 10:02 AM | Report abuse

OK this is my last post on this Torrence fooliness. I dare any of you to name one game where Torrence made a game changing play. I dare any of you to name on game where he down the ball within 5 yard line. I guess he wasn't on the field earlier this year when two teams ran punts back for touchdowns. Please stop trying to make Torrence more than what he was.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 1, 2008 10:04 AM | Report abuse

Beantown,

Don't forget that at this point Hall is a half season rental. Is Tryon capable of playing in the NFL at the third corner slot next year if we do not resign Hall?

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 10:06 AM | Report abuse

riley, see jm's post....I'm done with that subject....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Beantown,

Don't forget that at this point Hall is a half season rental. Is Tryon capable of playing in the NFL at the third corner slot next year if we do not resign Hall?

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 10:06 AM |

Maybe not, but Torrence is not either so what is your point.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 1, 2008 10:08 AM | Report abuse

"I dare any of you to name one game where Torrence made a game changing play."

Leigh Torrence deflected a Kurt Warner pass up high in the air which was subsequently picked off by Carlos Rogers and returned deep into Cardinals territory. We scored on that next possession. That play changed the game. Sparked by Torrence.

Posted by: psps23 | December 1, 2008 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Leigh Torrence deflected a Kurt Warner pass up high in the air which was subsequently picked off by Carlos Rogers and returned deep into Cardinals territory. We scored on that next possession. That play changed the game. Sparked by Torrence.

Posted by: psps23 | December 1, 2008 10:09 AM

Nice...he got a hand on a pass. Let's shine up a bust for Canton. Hall probably picks off that pass himself and runs it back himself.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 10:11 AM | Report abuse

"You aren't going to pick up a significant upgrade over Jansen in-season."

Maybe not, but you can shake up the lineup with who you have on your roster. Sometimes that's all it takes. It's a completely legitimate criticism, not only for the FO, but the coaching staff as well.

Posted by: psps23 | December 1, 2008 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Torrence talk=power rankings

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 10:13 AM | Report abuse

This year's schedule is tougher, @sshat! And two games better. Stop being pissed about an ugly loss yesterday long enough to think clearly. We'll be favored to win 3 of the last 4 games and winning those would put us in position to make the playoffs. Get a grip, moron.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 1, 2008 10:02 AM | Report abuse


brownwood,
Do me a favor and go ahead and hold your breath while you wait for that playoff birth. Chances are we will not be favored in the Eagles game by the time we reach that point too.

"This year's schedule is tougher" = yet another EXCUSE for this team's complete lack of effort and enthusiasim.

I'm not pissed about "an ugly loss". I'm pissed off about a team with a lot of potential pissing it all away and some of its fans continuing to make excuses for them.

Posted by: Soup17 | December 1, 2008 10:14 AM | Report abuse

"Hall probably picks off that pass himself and runs it back himself."

I never said Torrence was better than Hall. I said Torrence was better than Tryon. Someone asked a question, and I answered. I apologize if I hurt the feelings of the FO, but for this season, they were wrong on that one. It remains to be seen if Tryon will ever even reach Torrence's level.

Posted by: psps23 | December 1, 2008 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Whats worse JLC bringing up Torrence again, or all of us harping on that one point out of like 36 points brought up in the post or by us about the team/game/season?

But please keep finding ways to make the writer the story OR even aiding the writer in making himself the story, either way....a waste of space....

Posted by: chrislarry | December 1, 2008 10:15 AM | Report abuse

"I dare any of you to name one game where Torrence made a game changing play."

Leigh Torrence deflected a Kurt Warner pass up high in the air which was subsequently picked off by Carlos Rogers and returned deep into Cardinals territory. We scored on that next possession. That play changed the game. Sparked by Torrence.

Posted by: psps23

Base on your statement that you would have to compare Hall against Torrence since you are talking about playing 3rd CB. In which case you Hall has 2 picks compared to Torrence just hitting the ball. Point goes to Hall. Like I said don't make Torrence out to be more than what he is.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 1, 2008 10:15 AM | Report abuse

"but for this season, they were wrong on that one. It remains to be seen if Tryon will ever even reach Torrence's level"

Post of the day.

The "Torrence Level"....you can't make this stuff up.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 10:18 AM | Report abuse

Torrence played in 9 games for Skins this season and had 16 tackles. Tryon has played in ten games and has a total of 4 tackles. It is just a statistic, for those of you want just the facts. One player seems to have out-contributed the other player, if you know what I mean? by the same logic I defy anyone to show any statistic that Tryon has bested Torrence in.

Posted by: driley | December 1, 2008 10:18 AM | Report abuse

beep beep, but not at the "torrence level"

just a plain old beep beep

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 10:19 AM | Report abuse

OK this is my last post on this Torrence fooliness. I dare any of you to name one game where Torrence made a game changing play. I dare any of you to name on game where he down the ball within 5 yard line. I guess he wasn't on the field earlier this year when two teams ran punts back for touchdowns. Please stop trying to make Torrence more than what he was.

JM220

I second that. I can't think of any game breaking plays he's ever made either on defense or ST. I do remember him losing us the Rams game, and that our specials teams have not been great either because of or inspite of Leigh.

So this infatuation with him at this point seems trivial compared with the real mAJOR flaws on this team.

JLC is definitely nit-picking on this issue.

Posted by: Predator48 | December 1, 2008 10:20 AM | Report abuse

Alex, agreed. Not sure which route to go in FA, DL, or OL.

Can someone post what the amount of money freed up, if JTay were let go salary cap wise??

So if Springs and MWash are shown the door, its roughly a savings of close to 12-15 million correct??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 1, 2008 9:00 AM


Greg:

JT has no salary cap ramifications beyond salary. E.g., they either pay him $8 MM (actually $8.5 MM I think) or they cut him and have no salary cap implications. Springs has $8.5 MM salary in 2009, if he is cut it is $2.5 MM salary cap hit. Marcus Washington gets $6.5 MM, if he is cut it is also about $2.5 MM salary cap hit.

Posted by: zornskins2 | December 1, 2008 10:21 AM | Report abuse

cL, I'm with you on Jansen, Moss, and ARE, but not ready to throw the Complete Book of Jokes at Suisham yet.

That said, the Skins win one more game, and they've met my REASONABLE preseason expectations. They win two, and they exceed those expectations. Anyone who has been holding their breath for "deep into the playoffs" is unreasonable (including The Owner). Koolaidation. Homerism. aka, the reason to ridicule Skins fans.

Zorn and these guys have delivered an exciting few games up here. We will always have New Orleans, Arizona, and Dallas in Dallas.

We got us a game to win up in Baltimore and, gosh darn it, people like us.

Just to kick the dead horse one more time ... 25 seconds left in the 1st quarter ... 2nd and 10 ... Portis up the gut ... taken down from behind for loss of 2 by Alford ... after being ignored by Jansen. As of that play, even in run blocking, Jansen = power rankings.

Posted by: dcsween | December 1, 2008 10:22 AM | Report abuse

Ignoring whether or not JLaC is right about Dan and Vinny, you have to look at results. The Redskins have lost games in which their defense has given up 16, 19, 23, 14, and 23 points. Their offense is pathetic (Campbell, Portis, and Moss's performances excepted). Anyone who has followed football knows that dominant offenses and defenses arise out of dominant offensive and defensive lines.

The Redskins chose to draft three receivers with its top picks in this year's draft. Sure, they may all pan out one day, and sure, a degree of patience is required with rookies, but it's hard to have confidence in a front office that continually looks for shiny objects ahead of the dirt and muck-covered players it takes to win in the NFL. And, in the modern NFL, rookies must contribute from the onset. There is no more 5 year plan for evaluating draft classes...coaches are hired and fired too quickly for that.

Posted by: PDiddy | December 1, 2008 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Overall a spot on analysis of the team at this point. The point on Torrence is just plain stupid however. When did Torrence do MORE than what we have seen of Tryon on Teams? JLC himself ripped the guy several weeks ago for th e exact same "failure" as what Tryon did yesterday. Just a stupid point to keep bringing up.

JLC did point out that the "jury" is still out on the rookies, which is correct, but the two WRs ARE needed right NOW. I did not expect much of them early on, but I DID expect they would be contributing more by now, and therefor I am disappointed.

This team is not as good as I would like them to be, but the reality is this: how good COULD they have been expected to be considering the changes that took place in the offseason. Big picture is that Zorn has done a good job up to the this point, but I agree with JLC that he seems to be unwilling to get particularly creative with the offense. The question has to be WHY?

Posted by: craig2 | December 1, 2008 10:25 AM | Report abuse

So by your math ZornSkin, thatwould free up. 18 mill if we cut those three, I assume the team will re-negotiate with JJ and some other vets to bring down their caps. I am guessing we will have 20-25 mill to play with, hold 8 mill of that for rookies like last year gives us 12 mill to grab some FAs

Posted by: alex35332 | December 1, 2008 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Springs and Moss both had costly drops as well. Kelly's drop where he was leaping up on the sideline is a little different than Thrash's ball where he was just sitting in the middle of the field. Regardless, if the receivers don't start making plays for Campbell (who is not the problem), then we might not even get to 9 wins.

Posted by: hender_22 | December 1, 2008 10:32 AM | Report abuse

"As for the three receivers on whom the Redskins spent valuable second-round draft picks this season, someday Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly and tight end Fred Davis may develop. But so far, all three look like busts. Blame injuries, lack of work in training camp or whatever you like, the three have 15 catches for 101 yards."

Hmmmm.....somebody (me) has been saying this for weeks now, and people just keep arguing...

Solution to fix the Skins that will never happen cause Vinny is an idiot:

Cuts:
Taylor (no penalty cause he was traded for and saves 8.5 immediately)
Jansen
Thomas
Kendal (Retirement or cut)
Springs
Washington
Griffin
Daniels
Randel El

Our Players to reup:
Rogers and Hall- you're set at corner for a decade
Demetric Evans - proven capable player
Horton- lock him up long term for a reasonable contract now, cause he's only gonna get more expensive later on

FA to Sign:
Haynesworth (if he makes the pro bowl which is a lock he is guaranteed FA, so through the 8million you save on Taylor at him)
Shaun Cody -second tier good Dend that won't break the bank
Karlos Dansby- good young lb to fill Marcus' spot
Bobby Engram- knows Zorn system, won't command big dollars and is exactly what this team needs a big steady good possession guy that is reliable.
Seth McKinney- Guard Cleveland
Jordan Gross or Mark Tauscher- Good young tackles who won't command huge cash
Mike Goff- Guard good player who's blocked well in San Diego and would cost a fraction of what Thomas costs

Flier FA- look into what it would cost for Housh, it might be too much but if reasonable he'd be worth it.

That's it your only real big money guys there are Dansby and Haynesworth and maybe Housh.

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 1, 2008 10:33 AM | Report abuse

In the draft, we look like we'll be in the mid teens now so take a guy like Michael Johnson from GA Tech, or Greg Hardy from Ole Miss, or Everett Brown from Florida State all play Dend and at least one should be there when we pick. Then in the 3rd get the best LB available, then after that, nothing but Olinemen and hope you hit on one or two.

That's all extremely doable with the cap flexibility and the only real risky play is a possible Housh signing. Now at WR you have Moss with Engram or Housh opposite, and then Kelly, Thomas, or Engram, with Thrash as your teams guy which would be a stud group there even without signing housh and just getting engram. All of a sudden you're much more solid on the line with Samuels and Rabach still the anchors and Rhinehart, McKinney, and Goff at the guards and either Gross or Tauscher at tackle with Heyer still the swing backup and hopefully one of your late round picks is a decent backup along with Fabini. On the Dline you have Carter, Evans, and potential stud rookie at end along with James, Wilson, and Jackson as developing backups, and at tackle you have a solid group of Haynesworth, Monte, Gholston, and Alexander. At LB your starting Dansby, Fletcher, and McIntosh with Blades, Campbell and your 3rd pick behind them, very solid group and your secondary is still strong with Hall and Rogers as your starters and Smoot as the nickle. That is a very strong lineup and all are very doable moves. But Vinny never will.

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 1, 2008 10:34 AM | Report abuse

We need to realize at this point that Randle El is a bust. He might be a good guy, but if doesn't contribute on special teams or as a receiver. He is a #3 at best. We have to get the rookies going to have a chance. We also have to pass block. That line just does not have a good pass blocker.

The defense really is not the issue. Imagine what they could do if the offense actually held on to the ball?

Posted by: grittar1 | December 1, 2008 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Our biggest issues have to be the O-Line and D-Line...why is Rinehart and Geisinger not being activated at all. Why is Jansen still playing, he filled in well when Heyer was playing, Heyer is the future at that position. Rabach got beat quite often and it is very easy to see that Samuels is not healthy or lost 10 steps. Blache calls the DeFensive game like a timid gaping VAG, it is awful. I miss G. Williams! Campbell seems unwilling to me to even give the young guys a chance, granted Kelly has dropped a couple of balls, but more times than not, neither he nor Thomas is on the field, instead our high ticket prices are paying for retard Thrash to be out there. Makes no sense, you want them to get better, then play them. Let them build their confidence on the playing field in front of huge crowds, not the practice field - that is where the learn the fundamentals. It is getting old seeing the same old crap over and over again, what really has changed with Zorn over the Gibbs project? NOTHING. D. Hall has been awesome, Horton been a stud, McIntosh is playing well, but needs to tackle better and J. Taylor really sucks. Why did we bring E. James to come in and do nothing, cut him now so we dont have to give up a pick to the Vikes. Cut J. Taylor and M. Washington to free up for Haynesworth and Dansby, pick up a fast strong Dlinemen in the draft and stockpile O-Linemen and get Rinehart and Geisinger ready to play bigger roles, every single one of the older idiots on the line, can fill in and be backups, we would then have great depth, OH MY YOU MEAN LIKE THE HATED GMEN... who saw R. Wynn get a F'N sack, comeon.

Posted by: mhartz1 | December 1, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

Let me be the FIRST to say that I think we beat the Ravens Sunday!

Posted by: brownwood26


THAT and $5 gets you a Venti Latte at Starbucks.

Posted by: TheCork | December 1, 2008 11:02 AM | Report abuse

++1. The part about Thomas getting shut out, did they run any plays in his direction? Did they try and get him the ball, because I don't recall that happening.++++--BEANTOWN GREAG


Why should they? he can't learn the offense or beat out his fellow rookie, Kelly. He's REAL good at celebrating, tho.

+++2. Thrash sucks at this point, he contributes NOTHING. JZ calls a play for him on third and 10, and wont call a play for Thomas?? Makes ZERO sense.++++

Thrash sucks at WR because the five WRS Cerrato brought in to replace him haven't replaced him. Thrash showed up, worked hard, learned the system and busted his hump. If you're mad at Thrash, you're mad at the WRONG GUY.

+++3. The inevitable 'Leigh Torrence' dig at the FO. Did you happen to notice that the guy signed to replace him, had his second interception in 3 games, and should have had another one, if not for SSprings..+_+


I thought it was a J.T. Tryon dig. Did YOU notice the number of times Hall was beaten, or slipepd down, or arrived late?

Juries out on Hall, who is, after all on a salary drive. If the 'skins are lucky they can overpay him to repalce the overpaid and alwasy injured Springs.

Posted by: TheCork | December 1, 2008 11:08 AM | Report abuse

++++4. Blache has many strengths as a coach but designing blitzes is NOT one of them. The Skins' D can't blitz to save its life. Horton can get there and that's about it. Otherwise, time after time, the Skins did almost nothing to disguise the blitzers. Even a high school QB can figure it out when 9 guys are at the line and hit the hot route receiver. This is Madden 101 stuff. And even with 7 and 8 guys blitzing, the Skins still can't get to the QB. And, worse, while we blitz all these guys the DB's don't jam the receivers so the slant is there for the taking.

Posted by: TS_Alfabet++++

True that, yet strangely, NO TEAM has scored more than 24 points against Blache's defense, despite the injuries, the utterly ineffective edge rushers, rookie safety, etc etc etc.

The adjustments he's made to the talent he has available is nothing less than extraordinary.

If he got even a half-decent pass rush from Taylor and/or carter, the blitzing would be a LOT more effective.

Posted by: TheCork | December 1, 2008 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Don't understand people blasting JLC when he's stating facts. The Redskins personnel is largely the same as last year and the same problems remain (or are more noticeable). The line which was very good in 2005 when we had a weak-armed QB is now a weakness. Not only is replacing Jansen a certainty, but the same should be done with Thomas and Kendall. JC simply doesn't have enough talent at WR to pose any type of downfield threat. Moss can be taken away by a top CB like Aaron Ross or doubled. The rest of the WR's are either too old (Thrash), too young (Thomas/Kelly) or simply not good enough (ARE) to start. The impact on Cooley's production this year is largely the result of having no WR's to spread the field.

The DL is in bad shape and trading for Jason Taylor looks like a bad move. I'd be very surprised if the Skins give him another $8M to play next year; he looks done and the Skins need to re-sign Evans who is their best two-way lineman. LB's except McIntosh are old and we have no successor to replace M. Washington who is done IMO. Except for the DB's, the entire defense needs a facelift.

To make matters worse, we now have a very shaky kicker who has hurt us in both the Dallas and NY games with key misses. Our punter is a joke and should be replaced with a real one in the offeseason.

Good lucky Vinny - it's your team to rebuild and you're already minus your No. 2 for next year.

Posted by: wizfan89 | December 1, 2008 11:16 AM | Report abuse

The lack of perspective about the JLC comments are amazing. He is paid to have OPINIONS, this is a BLOG, not a Redskin cheerleading venue. Yes, it's hard to face all of the shortcomings but there is no denying them and the persons responsible. This team has been exposed repeatedly over the years. If you really want to be depressed just consider that Danny just turned 44! That means another 30 - 35 years of futility. Get over it and move on.

Posted by: SackMan | December 1, 2008 11:49 AM | Report abuse

man, did "TonyButterFingersHomo1" bring it to JLC or what? I couldn't agree more --- I too am sick of the tubby lard a$$ trying to stick it to the FO every column. JLC: stick to the game analysis!

Posted by: bestmick1 | December 1, 2008 12:03 PM | Report abuse

So the front office personnel decisions have no impact on gameday performance and therefore should not be part of the game analysis? This logic is breathtaking. So is the juvenile, vulgar name calling.

Posted by: SackMan | December 1, 2008 12:23 PM | Report abuse

1st of all I'm tired of people putting the blame on Randle El and the young WR's or Defensive not stopping somebody. Its very simple, Jason Campbell is not ready for this stage yet. The only reason Portis is doing so good is because he doesn't have to rely on Campbell throwing to him.

i seriously doubt if Campbell knows the plays fully yet. because he rarely if at all adjust at the line. and he is constantly under throwing guys or throwing in traffic now. the pass to Randle El should have been in the endzone, thats not Randle El's fault. he was double covered and beat his guys, the ball should've been there before he got there and it would have been a TD.
Same for the pass to Kelly, Kelly had to turn around fully just to try and catch the under thrown ball. and how many times has Campbell thrown the ball late and behind guys. enough said, let's see what Collins can do and get ready for next year.

then on Defense... we have no pass rush so why does Blanche think that he can all out blitz? how many times has it worked? we are a coverage team, and i would rather have a INT then a sack any day. the players are not at fault on that. they are doing what they were told.

Posted by: Nigarachi | December 1, 2008 12:27 PM | Report abuse

"Springs and Moss both had costly drops as well. Kelly's drop where he was leaping up on the sideline is a little different than Thrash's ball where he was just sitting in the middle of the field. Regardless, if the receivers don't start making plays for Campbell (who is not the problem), then we might not even get to 9 wins."

***

Campbell is not SOLELY to blame but he takes way too many sacks (partly because he is not a good drop-back passer and partly because he still has trouble either locking onto his primary receiver or finding anyone to throw to).

The Redskins have to decide this off-season whether to give JC a huge, long-term contract or not.

Does anyone think he deserves it at this point? We are running out of time? Why don't people like JlaC and Doc and the other pundits ask Zorn the tough question: is Campbell worth hitching the franchise to for the next 4-6 years?

Posted by: TS_Alfabet | December 1, 2008 12:39 PM | Report abuse

True that, yet strangely, NO TEAM has scored more than 24 points against Blache's defense, despite the injuries, the utterly ineffective edge rushers, rookie safety, etc etc etc.

The adjustments he's made to the talent he has available is nothing less than extraordinary.

If he got even a half-decent pass rush from Taylor and/or carter, the blitzing would be a LOT more effective.

Posted by: TheCork | December 1, 2008 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Cork,

I agree that Blache's defense is not the problem. He has done a good job overall holding teams to relatively few points each game, even though the Offense is constantly going 3 and out.

That said, he is not immune from criticism. And there is no excuse that I can see for him to use such obvious blitz packages and allow his db's to fail to jam receivers on obvious situations.

Posted by: TS_Alfabet | December 1, 2008 12:43 PM | Report abuse

How much longer will we have to watch Campbell hold on to the ball to long, pass to late and stare down his primary receiver? Thank God for Portis or this year would be like watching a Seahawks game!

Posted by: clintestes | December 1, 2008 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Ok, JLC is right, there are glaring weaknesses with this team. I am actually pretty surprised they are 7-5 right now. But I am kind of confused at this quote from him:

"Teams like Baltimore and Miami don't have nearly the kind of high-paid guys the Skins do at skill positions, yet they are relying on less to do more, using the Wildcat (hello - Antwaan Randle El was a college QB), running more gadget plays, showing creative twists each week. We simply haven't seen that here."

Um, were we all watching the same game? Randle El ran a reverse option pass to Cooley for 10+ yards, and Devin Thomas (you know, the ROOKIE WIDEOUT) scored on a 29 yard reverse that fooled at least 10 members of the Giants defense completely.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the 'skins got destroyed on Sunday in a way that exposes pretty big weaknesses along the lines on Off and Def, but c'mon, I see twists from Zorn in the offense every single week in an effort to do exactly what Baltimore and Miami try to do: get more out of less. And the 'skins definitely have less than the Giants in many, many areas.

Posted by: hithere1 | December 1, 2008 12:45 PM | Report abuse

i seriously doubt if Campbell knows the plays fully yet. because he rarely if at all adjust at the line. and he is constantly under throwing guys or throwing in traffic now. the pass to Randle El should have been in the endzone, thats not Randle El's fault. he was double covered and beat his guys, the ball should've been there before he got there and it would have been a TD.
Same for the pass to Kelly, Kelly had to turn around fully just to try and catch the under thrown ball. and how many times has Campbell thrown the ball late and behind guys. enough said, let's see what Collins can do and get ready for next year.

Posted by: Nigarachi | December 1, 2008 12:27 PM

Agree generally N-chi, but at this point, if we are really thinking that Soupie is not THE GUY at Qb then we shouldn't be putting Collins in there-- he is too old to be considered as a replacement. Let's see what Colt Brennan can do, from the shotgun.

The only QB we have on the roster who can drop back and pass is Collins, however, so if Zorn is not willing to go to the shotgun more often then i guess you're right, better put Collins in there.

Posted by: TS_Alfabet | December 1, 2008 12:49 PM | Report abuse

In the NFL teams go as the Quarterback position goes. Jason Campbell has had people make a thousand excuses for him. Excuses only go so far and the FACT of the issue is that Jason Campbell is not an NFL QB. Week in and week out the Redskins bring a knife to a gun fight. It won't matter how long we stick to this scheme, who we surround him with, the Redskins will continue to flounder with Jason Campbell as QB, he simply isn't capable!


Posted by: crazyhorse19682003 | December 1, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

We really need a QB with some savy that is a top level play maker. We have nothing but an average QB at BEST.

Posted by: LongTimeSkinsFan | December 1, 2008 1:25 PM | Report abuse

cowher and collins in 09.

Posted by: drew77 | December 1, 2008 2:07 PM | Report abuse

Anyone that thinks Colt Brennan is the answer is an idiot.
He's Tommy Chang 2.0.

Posted by: kreator6996 | December 1, 2008 2:49 PM | Report abuse

I disagree that NY "made" the Skins one-dimensional. I just checked the play-by-play, and the only series that the Skins ran two running plays in the same series was the very first series of the game. Otherwise, it was run, pass, pass ... pass, pass, pass ... pass, run, pass. This confirms my own watching of the game and something I've thought in every loss this year. A running game takes patience. You have to be willing to run on first and second down and maybe even third down, in order to establish the running game. It may not work right away, but at least it keeps the other team on their toes, makes you more unpredictable, makes the play action that much more dangerous. I think Coach is too impatient for that, though; when a run doesn't go for big yardage or we don't have the lead right away, he becomes very pass-centric. Fox, after half-time, said that Zorn switched to the pass because the "running game wasn't working," but frankly, I don't think the passing game was working. A three yard run might not be much, but three of those (and a little) gets you a first down; while a 0 yard pass (or a sack) doesn't get you anything. Anyone else see this or is it just me?

Posted by: num6 | December 1, 2008 4:23 PM | Report abuse

La Canfora is under a mis-apprehension. The Redskins are going to need a rebuild next season whether or NOT the team makes the postseason.

Looking at this roster right now the Redskins need help on both sides of the line, at strongside linebacker, wide receiver and punter/kicker. They also could use a new punt returner, someone younger and faster than Randle El who is willing to give up the body to make a play for the team, in other words somebody who is still hungry.

If Kelly and Thomas develop in the offseason and the team is able to resign DeAngelo Hall to a new contract then that takes some of the pressure off and the team can look to load up on the OL and especially the DL in the draft.

Among the players the team needs to take a serious look at for 2009 include:

James Thrash, Jon Jansen, Jason Taylor, Marcus Washington, Pete Kendall, Ryan Plackmeier, Antwaan Randle El, Shaun Suisham, Ladell Betts.

I put Betts in there because he seems to get hurt each season despite being a part-time performer and does not add the element of outside speed which this team needs as a change of pace to the main entree of Clinton Portis running between the tackles. Betts will be 30 in 2009, old for a backup runner. We should be able to find a younger, cheaper alternative.

Posted by: leopard09 | December 1, 2008 4:28 PM | Report abuse

all you baltimore b*&!#es need to recognize...We gonna eat you for breakfast you poptart wannabees in your purple blouses! Here are your pancakes!

Posted by: bbachrac | December 1, 2008 6:12 PM | Report abuse

Comments: The post was ok except for the incessant Torrence nonsense. The guy is gone, the team is moving forward, I have a hard time thinking Torrence was the missing link. His terrible coverage at the end of the Rams game after he taunted the coach was the perfect karma slap he needed. He's gone. He hardly is remembered.

Posted by: JWPinCHI | December 1, 2008 7:30 PM | Report abuse

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