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You Asked for It: Contracts, the Cap and Free Agency

We've reached the point of the season where the emails about cap space and offseasoon wish lists start pouring in, so let's get the basics out of the way.

This is all very tenuous right now, with another round of contract restructurings and cuts coming in the offseason, but for now the Redskins have 45 players signed through at least 2009, and are $2 million over the projected 2009 cap of $123 million, according to sources with knowledge of the situation (again, this does not include cap adjustments and tenders, and is a rough figure).

With routine housekeeping, the Skins will be able to get under the cap.

Starting with the aging free agent class of 2004 alone, the Skins could create $14.7 million in space by parting with Shawn Springs ($6 million in 2009 cap savings), Marcus Washington ($4.5 million in cap savings) and Cornelius Griffin ($4.2 million in savings).

(Note on the corners: Springs's relationship with ownership/management has been strained, but he could end up back here because of his ability to play safety, especially if these defensive coaches are retained. His health issues are a big concern, but I don't believe it's an automatic slam dunk that he's cut. It's also by no means certain that DeAngelo Hall is going to re-sign here. In fact, I'm hearing that press-man coverage, coupled with no pass rush and just a single high safety, isn't exactly a siren song to him. Of course, if the Skins show him the money those concerns could fade fast. Carlos Rogers could make a push for a new contract, with the potential to be stuck as a restricted, and not unrestricted, free agent after 2009 because of the issues with the collective bargaining agreement. But the Skins don't have to do anything with him, either.)

Back to the numbers...

Defensive end Jason Taylor, a bust this season and someone who was contemplating retirement last offseason, should be jettisoned, too. That would save $8.5 million in space. If he wants to return for a veteran minimum-type deal, that would be great, but the team shouldn't commit $8.5 million or that kind of cash to a 35-year old who has been breaking down and not threatening any passers.

So we're up to a possible $23 million in cap savings, assuming they do all of the above. For a team that should be focusing on young players and draft picks (with the few selections they have left), that's more than ample room to make some moves.

The Redskins also face some two very interesting situations regarding veterans who are due to receive roster bonuses July 1. Tackle Jon Jansen would be a prime candidate to relinquish his starting role to Stephon Heyer, or a newcomer, with his production on the decline. He is due a $1 million roster bonus in July, according to sources, and the Skins could release him post June 1, save $2.5 million in 2009 cap space, and avoid that $1 million payment. At this point I'd be surprised if they did otherwise, which would mean the longest tenured Redskin (since 1999) would be moving on. (I have heard that when Jansen's name has come up in internal discussions in recent years the coaches have always in essence been told that it is cap prohibitive to release him before 2009, but I can't see why, from my access to the contract details, and I'm continuing to look into this issue. Will post more as I get it).

End Andre Carter is due a $2.5 million roster bonus July 1, according to sources. This, after a season in which he has been reduced to being a situational player at times, and has just three sacks. If they cut him post June 1, the Skins would save $4.5 million in cap space, avoid the big payday (and have a modest $4.2 million dead cap hit on him in 2010, which could become an uncapped year, anyway).

However, they are certainly already very thin at end. We've discussed that. And at least one team source figures that Carter will be back, with Taylor gone or back at a greatly reduced rate. Phillip Daniels, oft injured and 35, has two years and $4 million left on his deal, but I would not be stunned if the Redskins bring him back at the veteran minimum. Starting DE Demetric Evans is an unrestricted free agent and I'd expect the Skins to work hard to re-sign him).

Okay, so that's a look at the cap scenarios.

Washington's unrestricted free agents are Evans, Hall, LG Pete Kendall (whose arthritic knees and age might prompt the Skins to finally go young to find a long-term replacement for departed Derrick Dockery), OL Jason Fabini, LB Khary Campbell, LB Alfred Fincher, S Mike Green, DT Ryan Boschetti and LS Ethan Albright. Hall will merit some interest from other teams, I would expect Evans to be a priority, Campbell is huge on special teams and Albright is as good as they come. Fincher's play on special teams would likely merit a contract offer.

As for restricted free agents, the Skins have DT Kedric Golston, DT Anthony Montgomery, S Reed Doughty, K Shaun Suisham and C Justin Geisinger. I'd expect all of them to be tendered, and if they all accepted a low tender, they would cost the Skins a combined $3 million in cap space. Golston, Montgomery and Doughty have started at various times. Suisham has had a poor second half but I'd expect him to at least get a contract offer.

As for coaches, assuming Jim Zorn is left alone, and nothing is thrust upon him and he sees fit to make no changes himself, the only real questions would be whether Joe Gibbs holdovers Joe Bugel (offensive line) and Rennie Simmons (tight ends) return for another season. Several coaches on the staff are wondering if they may retire, though there have been no indications either way to this point.

Bugel, whose daughter Holly died of cancer earlier this season, interacts well with running backs coach Stump Mitchell and there has been a nice transition to this staff, team sources said, even though the club has struggled to develop young linemen this decade. Simmons is close to Chris Cooley, and is trying to get draft pick Fred Davis up to speed.

By Jason La Canfora  |  December 16, 2008; 10:15 AM ET
 
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Comments

Wow thats good stuff JLC, we do need to get younger everywhere.

Posted by: skin4lfe22 | December 16, 2008 10:26 AM | Report abuse

"Since we have blown last year's draft"

driley, can you elaborate on this??

And by 'elaborate' what I want you to do is show pick by pick what the Redskins should have done instead of picking the players that they did.

Corky, this is for you, and take into consideration that had the team drafted D. Jackson, E. Royal, and M. Bennett, it wouldn't have mattered because ZORN WONT THROW THE BALL TO THOSE GUYS.

Heck, he wont even throw the ball to Betts.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 16, 2008 9:57 AM | Report abu

Bean, I'm not gonna go through this again but almost everybody on here, every reporter covering the team, every talk show about the team, and every major football analyst in the country soundly agree that our draft last year was a misuse of picks when we needed so much else so many other places. Stop trying to defend it by just blaming Zorn for not throwing to them. First of all, if its them not being thrown to that is on JC not Zorn, secondly, this draft class was 10 picks, not just the 3 seconds. Other than Horton there has been little impact from the entire class. That could change in the future but it isn't a good class right now.....

no way to get around that no matter how many times you say wait and see, and there's also no way around that, decisions to not draft on the lines forcing us to trade 3 picks from this years draft to get James and Taylor (since Vinny doesn't draft for needs he just gives away future picks for them) relegates us to having to sign free agents again to fill our holes that we didn't fill last year and gave up 3 picks this year in trades that all whiffed and still have nothing to show for them. Vinny was an abject failure, all your wait and see will do is that if Kelly, Thomas, and Davis improve will change it to less of a failure. Essentially Vinny, right now, used 13 picks to get us a decent looking strong safety.

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 16, 2008 10:13 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 16, 2008 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Not all doom and gloom for next year...yet.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 16, 2008 10:29 AM | Report abuse

good stuff. Thanks.

Posted by: tedunni1 | December 16, 2008 10:30 AM | Report abuse

zjfr, are you talking about now or then?

Cause I remember people saying we had one of the best drafts in the league last year.

And when I say "people", I mean the ESPN talking heads and some online "sources"

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 10:31 AM | Report abuse

Question for you guys

What about next year the offensive line looking like this

Samuels, Rhinehardt,Jansen, Thomas, Heyer

before you call me an idiot hear me out, I know you see jansen in there but I say move him to Center, he was already our back up and truth be told he is probably a better center at this stage of his career than tackle. Also he is to expensive to cut.

Let Jansen start at Center at give Geisenger another year to learn, and bench or cut Rabach.

All while still drafting replacements in the draft.

Posted by: GreatOne1 | December 16, 2008 10:32 AM | Report abuse

Thanks JLC - let us know about Jansen.

When we say 'bring back at vet min' is that releasing them and then signing a new contract?

Posted by: Rypien11 | December 16, 2008 10:33 AM | Report abuse

Thanks,

JLC that was a good constructive post, keep them coming.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 10:34 AM | Report abuse

Did anyone notice how many receivers the Eagles threw to last night? EVERYONE on the offensive roster was involved. It was amazing!

Did you also notice how much time McNabb had in the pocket?

That's also a "west coast offense"

I guess that's what ours is SUPPOSED to look. No?

I hope Vinnie trades down and trades stars for several picks and drafts bevy of rip-snarling beef along the O-line.

Posted by: heyjoe728 | December 16, 2008 10:35 AM | Report abuse

I hope Vinny does not read this he may decide to do none of it because JLC mentioned it.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 10:39 AM | Report abuse

Question for you guys

What about next year the offensive line looking like this

Samuels, Rhinehardt,Jansen, Thomas, Heyer

before you call me an idiot hear me out, I know you see jansen in there but I say move him to Center, he was already our back up and truth be told he is probably a better center at this stage of his career than tackle. Also he is to expensive to cut.

Let Jansen start at Center at give Geisenger another year to learn, and bench or cut Rabach.

All while still drafting replacements in the draft.


Posted by: GreatOne1 | December 16, 2008 10:32 AM | Report abuse

My initial thought is that Jansen at 6.6 310 or so is too tall for center. Center is usually a shorter linemen around 6.1 or 6.2 as is G. I would be interested to see what Jansen could do at G with Rabach doing a decent job (he needs help around him).

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 16, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

Ryp,

Thats exactly what he means cut them and then if no one else wants them sign them back at the Vet. minimum to be a backup.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

GreatOne, I don't mind most of that. But I'd rather have :

Samuels, Rhinehart, Rabach, Thomas, Heyer


Or Samuels, Rhinehart, Rabach, , Heyer

I just look at Jon Jansen and I see a guy that has completely lost it really quick. I have nightmares of him turned around with a puzzled look while looking down at a sacked Jason Campbell.


The sad thing is, this is gonna start to a lot of players on our team. They're just old, they're gonna lose it really quick and it's not gonna be pretty. Watch for Samuels to do this next year.

But I'd rather keep Rabach over Jansen. Cutting Jansen would cost us some, but not really that much where it's unheard of. Rabach I think can hold his own on a good line.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

"Or Samuels, Rhinehart, Rabach, , Heyer"

that was supposed to read :

Samuels, Rhinehart, Rabach, 1st round pick, Heyer


I guess you can't use

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 10:42 AM | Report abuse

I don't get the problem with Rabach some have. He does fine in pass and run, struggles against the 3-4 but in most situations he helps get the blocking for JC at the line.

Posted by: alex35332 | December 16, 2008 10:43 AM | Report abuse

Wow - this could be a pretty major house cleaning.

Posted by: Kev29 | December 16, 2008 10:43 AM | Report abuse

I wouldnt mind grooming Jansen as a center if his cap number wasn't so big. At this point, since we're rebuilding anyway, he needs to get cut and we need to take the hit. If he wants to come back at a minimum, fine.

Posted by: psps23 | December 16, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Truth,

Did you see my Curry question I wanted to know if he is a rush the passer type or a more traditional OLB?

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Okay, with the secondary

I say keep 'em all, Springs included.

Rogers and Hall I think you have to keep.

Hell, give Hall the monay Jason Taylor was making.


One thing I know, if Jason Taylor is back next year, then our FO is covering their you-know-whats.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 10:46 AM | Report abuse

I think Buges retires this year, to be honest if you are going to keep Zorn he should be allowed to bring in a staff of his choosing.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 10:47 AM | Report abuse

I have no problem with Rabach I think he does a great job but just threw that scenario out there just to see what people thought

Posted by: GreatOne1 | December 16, 2008 10:47 AM | Report abuse

One thing I know, if Jason Taylor is back next year, then our FO is covering their you-know-whats.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 10:46 AM |

I agree 110% this would do it for me with Vinny.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 10:50 AM | Report abuse

I say cut springs


Secondary next year should be

FS- Laron Landry, and Kareem Moore
SS- Horton and Doughty or Draft pick
CB- Hall, Rogers, Smoot, Draft Pick, Tryon

Posted by: GreatOne1 | December 16, 2008 10:51 AM | Report abuse

I think we should keep Samuels, Rabach and Thomas, bring in 2 free agent linemen a T and a G around the age of 26 draft the best lineman we can get with the 1st pick, and hold open fight for the other guard and tackle spot with Reinheart and Heyer in the mix as well.

Posted by: alex35332 | December 16, 2008 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Theres some talk about trading some of the current "stars" on the roster. Who would be some good candidates? And you have to put your "but I like that guy, we cant trade him" attitude aside. This would be based on how good they are, their age, their current contract and what the Skins could acquire from trading them.

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 16, 2008 10:52 AM | Report abuse

The Skins can clear up some cap space. Not bad. Here's the problem in the offseason. We only have 4 draft picks this year; 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th. Traded 2nd round for Jason Taylor, 4th round for Pete Kendall and 7th round for Erasmus James. Taylor and Kendall will be gone in the offseason and James has been cut already. 3 players gone and 3 draft picks wasted again. Anyone see a pattern here?

Redskins Vinnie and Dan annual offseason sideshow has officially begun!!

Posted by: trueredskinsfan | December 16, 2008 10:52 AM | Report abuse

Alex,

I like the fight for your position, alot of these guys feel entilted to there positions make them earn it.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 10:54 AM | Report abuse

I think Curry can do it all really. He's athletic, smart, all that.

Him and Laurinautus both can really do whatever you ask of them.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

zjfr, are you talking about now or then?

Cause I remember people saying we had one of the best drafts in the league last year.

And when I say "people", I mean the ESPN talking heads and some online "sources"

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 10:31 AM | Report abuse

Talking about now...and yes, Kiper said we had a good class, but he is pretty unreliable, although several people said it was a good draft for us at the time for sure. And I still say I have no problem with the Thomas pick, but we ignored so much, I said it then, I said it at 6-2, and I say it now, we ignored so much and missed opportunities to restock our team at the core which is what guys like Shlaereth and Golic and others said, guys who you know, played football and unlike Kiper and Snyder know that games are won on the lines not at wideout. I'll never forget Golic's quote on that Monday's Mike & Mike where he said essentially, yeah I know they got some weapons at receiver, but they have been doing that for years and if you look at this team and this division they don't get after the passer well and they don't create turnovers and maybe they'll score more points now but I think you win games in the East where I played with defense and running the ball and they didn't get better at defense and they got older on the offensive front and they still have a good line but it won't be there for ever, I think they may have gambled here just a bit but they certainly look like they added some nice weapons for their young QB Campbell. I was driving to work, it was raining, and I began my cursing of a second round tight end pick that day.

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 16, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

true,

Thanks for pointing that out we where all unaware of that on here.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

Great1, I can see the Skins keeping Springs (hopefully at a reduced price) but drafting another safety? If they draft a DB at all this April, Cerrato is out of his mind! DL, OL, LB in that order of importance!

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 16, 2008 10:57 AM | Report abuse

I posted it before, I'll post it again.

Springs will be cut to save money. A draft pick will not be used (or should not be used) on a corner. Who will take his place?

Heard it here first -- vet minimum signing, Leigh Torrence.

Posted by: psps23 | December 16, 2008 10:57 AM | Report abuse

think Curry can do it all really. He's athletic, smart, all that.

Him and Laurinautus both can really do whatever you ask of them.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 10:56 AM |

Just to piggyback, and not that it matters much at this point, Mike Mayock NFLN has Curry as the #1 senior draft prospect regardless of position.

Posted by: TWISI | December 16, 2008 10:58 AM | Report abuse

twisi,

Some mock drafts have us taking him first.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 11:00 AM | Report abuse

REDSKINS DRAFT CLASS UPDATE
(a/k/a Vinny's Gotta Go)

ROOKIE RECEIVER COMPARISON

Name Team Catches yards

Jackson. Eagles 58 for 852
Royal, Denver 75 for 847
Avery St. Louis 43 for 578
*Keller NYJ 45 for 509
Nelson, GB 30 for 330
Bennett, Dallas 18 for 269
Morgan, SF 15 for 214
Thomas, Was 14 for 103
Davis, Was 2 for 21
Kelly, Was 3 for 18

*Keller, selected in first round, is only player on this list Redskins could not have drafted with second round pick.

Posted by: TheCork | December 16, 2008 11:01 AM | Report abuse

I think Moss is probably the most tradable star we have, get him to a team with weak management and no WR's, thinking KC.

WR's call for the most in return for what they are worth.

Portis will have injury issues and TE's like Cooley don't usually get you a 1st round pick.

Posted by: alex35332 | December 16, 2008 11:01 AM | Report abuse

Here is another site that has us going O-Line with our first pick.


14 OT, Eugene Monroe, Virginia Monroe (6' 5" 315 lbs) has great feet, but doesn't stay on his blocks as long as Michael Oher or Jason Smith.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 11:02 AM | Report abuse

"Theres some talk about trading some of the current "stars" on the roster. Who would be some good candidates? And you have to put your "but I like that guy, we cant trade him" attitude aside. This would be based on how good they are, their age, their current contract and what the Skins could acquire from trading them.

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1"

I say trade Portis and Moss! Why not? They aren't going to get any healthier or younger and they can still bring value draft picks. Hey, a house cleaning is a house cleaning. Zorn has Coach Joe's players, who are aging, fragile and have attitudes.

Posted by: heyjoe728 | December 16, 2008 11:02 AM | Report abuse

"Devin Thomas has gotten more than enough of an opportunity"

Really?? Where?? When?? The last game was a mirco-cosm of the whole year. Throw to Moss, Cooley, Run Portis. If that fails, as it has for WEEKS...Repeat it, because there is no plan B. The rookies were brought in to be EXACTLY THAT, the plan B, but Zorn, or JC simply refuses to go to them. These guys earn accolades all through college, but come here and suddenly they can't play this game? Sorry, I'm not buying that. Like Flound said, its kind of hard to put this on them, when they're not being given the chance. If they were getting the ball thrown to them 5 times a game, and dropping the ball, or catching it and fumbling it, then sure, they stink, but thats just not happening.

Thomas got the ball thrown to him ONCE the last game, but somehow this translates into getting opportunity?? You yourself said that Davis "flashed ability and athleticism" but Davis got it throw to him ONCE. When the ENTIRE LEAGUE knows how to defend your team, wouldn't it be PRUDENT to get the ball to SOMEONE ELSE not named Cooley, Portis, or Moss?? Sorry, but on this VERY BLOG, it was detailed how to defend this team, and yet nothing has changed.

driley, did you answer this yet:

"And by 'elaborate' what I want you to do is show pick by pick what the Redskins should have done instead of picking the players that they did"

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 16, 2008 11:03 AM | Report abuse

"Secondary next year should be

FS- Laron Landry, and Kareem Moore
SS- Horton and Doughty or Draft pick
CB- Hall, Rogers, Smoot, Draft Pick, Tryon"

Posted by: GreatOne1

I would make one major change to that list. I would prefer to see Landry at SS and Horton at FS. I think Landry does better at SS, and while Horton is obviously no ST21 (hell, no one is), I think his nose for the ball can be best utilized at FS. Sure he'll have a steep initial learning curve, but we'll be rebuilding anyway.

My 2 cents.

Posted by: gringoinmiami | December 16, 2008 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Players we could get rid of, I think Santana and ARE are two candidates. Santana is an established WR, which is a plus, so he could maybe get us like a 2nd or 3rd?

ARE, I couldn't see much over a 5th, but why not? We need hungry players.

Guys like Portis and Cooley though, we almost literally can't trade. No one would take their contracts. Betts I think we might be a year late on trading him, but I could see a 3rd or 4th rounder for him.

And how 'bout Fletcher? I think we could get some solid value on him. Our secondary I say we really can't touch, they're young and good.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Randy Moss went for a 4th, you think Santanna Moss would go for more?

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 16, 2008 11:04 AM | Report abuse

If they Skins trade a player with a large signing bonus, is that players contract wiped clean from the Skins salary cap?

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 16, 2008 11:06 AM | Report abuse

I hope Vinnie trades down and trades stars for several picks and drafts bevy of rip-snarling beef along the O-line.

Posted by: heyjoe728 | December 16, 2008 10:35 AM | Report abuse

Sorry. Vinnie only drafts the best player available. Vinnie does not draft for need.

Posted by: virtueandvice | December 16, 2008 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Randy Moss went for a 4th, you think Santanna Moss would go for more?

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 16, 2008 11:04 AM |

Not sure but RM went for a 4th because he was perceived as a problem child.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 11:07 AM | Report abuse

The only reason you would trade Moss is if the team had a viable replacement for him on the roster. The Redskins do not have that replacement. That would be equivalent to trading Jason Campbell, and hoping somewhere down the road we could get a QB that would equal his playing ability. Trading Moss does nothing to help this team. How did the Vikings turn out when they traded their own Moss and drafted his "replacement", Troy Williamson?

Posted by: psps23 | December 16, 2008 11:07 AM | Report abuse

If they Skins trade a player with a large signing bonus, is that players contract wiped clean from the Skins salary cap?

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 16, 2008 11:06 AM | Report abuse

It's all due at the time of the trade minus any salary they take on in return.....I think.

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 16, 2008 11:08 AM | Report abuse

+++...We only have 4 draft picks this year; 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th. Traded 2nd round for Jason Taylor, 4th round for Pete Kendall and 7th round for Erasmus James. ... 3 draft picks wasted again. Anyone see a pattern here?+++

Beantown?

Time for you to post that these were BRILLIANT moves because Vinny is such a bad drafter, why should he waste picks on disappointing prospects? Anyway, Zorns wouldn't have thrown to the three WRs Vinny would have chosen with these picks, anyway, right beans?

THIS is why seven rookie receivers, who all presumably showed up in shape and on time for practice and learned the playbook are having better years than Vinny's last class of receivers.

Posted by: TheCork | December 16, 2008 11:08 AM | Report abuse

If they Skins trade a player with a large signing bonus, is that players contract wiped clean from the Skins salary cap?

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 16, 2008 11:06 AM |

No the bonus counts all at once against the cap unless you do it after June 1St then it is split over 2 years. This is a link to a site that gives you all the information on what it would cost to release each player.

http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 16, 2008 11:10 AM | Report abuse

It would be good if all rules were known in the last capped year of 2009:

you CAN NOT HAVE POST JUNE 1ST CUTS. You absolutely will be disallowed to push dead mony to future years because there are no future capped years.

That's an issue if you people and JLaC keep pimping this non existent idea.....

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 16, 2008 11:11 AM | Report abuse

The odd thing is, I dont see any of those moves as controversial. Cutting Springs, Washington, Griffin, and Taylor are no brainers and that alone cuts out $23 mil. Plenty to spend on one or two good, young, starting 0-lineman. If we sign 1 or 2 starting o-linemen first (preferably at LG, C, and/or RT) then we can justify cutting Jansen and Rabach. Still not controversial. We'll also have plenty of cap space to maybe go after a DL. and we would still have space. Sure I sound like i'm all for crazy spending spree, but honestly I dont think signing solid starters at reasonable prices to fill our needs (because we dont have the answer or depth on the current roster) should be considered a crazy spree. We'll still have a bit of space after that AND can use our draft for pure depth purposes (focusing on o-line and d-line) with the 1st pick being a LB.

Posted by: ThatGuy2 | December 16, 2008 11:11 AM | Report abuse

also Randy Moss was said to be done when he was being traded. No one thought he still had it. Goes to show you...

also I just saw the box score for the Philly game last night....ummm, I thought it was against the rules to score 30 points? How did they do that????

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 11:11 AM | Report abuse

They have to resign Hall. Period! He's young and experienced enough to be here for the long hall. I'd consider adding a year to Los' contract, but not much beyond that. Springs I think we need to let go. that would make our Corners

Hall, Rogers, Smoot, Tryon, someone else.

Posted by: Veretax | December 16, 2008 11:12 AM | Report abuse

REDSKINS DRAFT CLASS UPDATE
(a/k/a Vinny's Gotta Go)

ROOKIE RECEIVER COMPARISON

Name Team Catches yards

Jackson. Eagles 58 for 852
Royal, Denver 75 for 847
Avery St. Louis 43 for 578
*Keller NYJ 45 for 509
Nelson, GB 30 for 330
Bennett, Dallas 18 for 269
Morgan, SF 15 for 214
Thomas, Was 14 for 103
Davis, Was 2 for 21
Kelly, Was 3 for 18


*Keller, selected in first round, is only player on this list Redskins could not have drafted with second round pick.

Posted by: TheCork | December 16, 2008 11:01 AM

Just curious. Should this be blamed on Vinny or the coaches? Meaning do you think we would have the same scenario with any of the receivers. Another note on the receivers mentioned above. Jackson, Royal and Avery are all 3 small receivers, which if I'm not mistaken was one of our biggest problems that EVERYBODY's been screaming about.

Posted by: Lacantwrite | December 16, 2008 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Flounder21

Curry would be a great pick from what I've on him. I think the OT that Truth mentioned would do nicely as well. There are some DT prospect that I wouldn't mind them drafting as well. The DT are juniors and haven't declared yet. I'm not sold on drafting DE in the 1st in this years draft. I think you can get good situational rushers in the 2-4 rounds if the pre-mocks hold somewhat to form.

Posted by: TWISI | December 16, 2008 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Please . . . tell me we didn't trade a 2nd rounder for Jason Taylor. :-(

Posted by: heyjoe728 | December 16, 2008 11:14 AM | Report abuse

Randy Moss went for a 4th, you think Santanna Moss would go for more?

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 16, 2008 11:04 AM |

Not sure but RM went for a 4th because he was perceived as a problem child.


and Santanna isn't perceived as an older burner without the wheels cause his hamstrings get hurt every time he has a big game anymore?

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 16, 2008 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Let me mention the first round DE's this year. They're all good players but not what we need. These guys are more finesse players than we want. I think if we drafted any of them, they'll work out about the same as JT.

But individually I like them as players, just not on our team. The guy from FSU is really fun to watch.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 11:16 AM | Report abuse

Did we lose anyone in free agency last year that would warrant us receiving compensatory draft picks? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head.

Posted by: Skins1 | December 16, 2008 11:17 AM | Report abuse

corky, again, I've yet to have this answered, WHY WONT THE ROOKIES GET THE BALL?? If Davis can be trusted to catch ONE pass for 15 yards last game, why can't they throw the ball to him again during the game??

I guess Davis ran a PERFECT ROUTE, that one time, and then never again. Zorn is cutting of his nose to spite his face with these rookies. He refuses to utilize them. Heck, he refuses to utilize Betts, in a more efficient manner, and he refused for most of the year to utilize Sellers either.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 16, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

slates into getting opportunity?? You yourself said that Davis "flashed ability and athleticism" but Davis got it throw to him ONCE. When the ENTIRE LEAGUE knows how to defend your team, wouldn't it be PRUDENT to get the ball to SOMEONE ELSE not named Cooley, Portis, or Moss??

BEANS

It's a conspiracy! Zorn is INTENTIONALLY sabotaging his own career by keeping three all star receivers on the bench just to spite Vinny.

Zorn intentionally ignores the terrific trio just to spite Vinny.

I'm sorry, but did you not see Thomas screw up with a penalty that may have cost a game? Didn't you see Kelly collide with Cooley on a critical goal line 4th down? Did Zorn MAKE UP the story about davis' alarm clock? As bad as special teams are, why wouldn't they argue for Davis if he was any good--but no, they don't want him.

Hey, they DID throw it to Kelly, when he ran a fade five yards out of bounds in the end zone.

And most of the time they've thrown it to Thomas he's been covredlike the proverbial blanket.

The last guy made this many excuses is about to leave 1600 PA avenue


Posted by: TheCork | December 16, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

"The only reason you would trade Moss is if the team had a viable replacement for him on the roster. The Redskins do not have that replacement. That would be equivalent to trading Jason Campbell, and hoping somewhere down the road we could get a QB that would equal his playing ability. Trading Moss does nothing to help this team. How did the Vikings turn out when they traded their own Moss and drafted his "replacement", Troy Williamson?

Posted by: psps23 "

I agree that we probably won't find much better anytime soon if we trade Moss, but say we keep him until he starts to lose steam.

I would be confident to bet that we would have zero NFC East titles and zero Superbowl titles in that time, and maybe 2 playoff appearances at best. It's not so much about the player(s), but the team. We need some hungry players and we need fresh faces. Our franchise has become stale.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 16, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

beep beep

Posted by: NCICURN | December 16, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Why are we continuing to speak of last years draft?

Let's just agree on two things.

1. The draft picks, with the exception of Horton did nothing to help this team this year.

2. it takes 3-4 years to really judge a draft class with WR's in particular usually taking longer to develop.


Posted by: Gweez | December 16, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

". . . even though the club has struggled to develop young linemen this decade . . . "

Ouch.

Posted by: farstriker | December 16, 2008 11:19 AM | Report abuse

"which if I'm not mistaken was one of our biggest problems that EVERYBODY's been screaming about.

Posted by: Lacantwrite

You're mistaken. I had a lengthy argument all offseason about how it's not the size of the WR that matters, but the ability of the WR. Moss, Steve Smith, Wes Welker, Lee Evans, Greg Jennings, all "small" guys.

Of course, that argument rings hollow with our FO. Just as the argument of drafting players that you need... (sigh)

Posted by: psps23 | December 16, 2008 11:19 AM | Report abuse

beep beep

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 16, 2008 11:19 AM | Report abuse

"THIS is why seven rookie receivers, who all presumably showed up in shape and on time for practice and learned the playbook are having better years than Vinny's last class of receivers."

I guess we drafted the two most stupid and out of shape receivers in the draft? But I'm just not buying that excuse anymore. I just get the feeling Zorn is afraid to loosen the reigns on any of the three pass catching draft picks. When it comes to pure talent, we weren't the only team that had these three rated extremely high. I'm so sick of seeing Thrash, Randle El, Betts, and Yoder out in pass patterns while Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, and Fred Davis are either on the sideline or inactive. Zorn is even sending Lorenzo Alexander out in pass patterns for crying out loud, I guess he is in better shape and knows his offensive playbook better...

The rookie receivers have 19 catches between the 3 of them. To me, I put that squarely on the coaches for not getting them involved enough and not preparing them well enough. How long does it take to learn a playbook and why isn't some assistant constantly teaching and tutoring them on the plays. Bottom line is if Zorn really wanted them out on the field, they would be.

Posted by: hender_22 | December 16, 2008 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Cork:
Avery was chosen #33, before Thomas at #34.
On the Redskins depth chart, Thomas is behind Moss -- who has been a bit healthier than last year. (Did he even miss a game with his hammie?)
Swap Thomas and Jackson -- give me McNabb as Skins QB and Santana (in place of Kevin Curtis) hurt most of the preseason and into the regular season -- and tell me if you think the numbers might be different.

How Davis is not the #2 TE is a problem, because there is no question to which the answer is "Todd Yoder". But Dallas drafted a TE in the 2nd behind Witten. (And those who argue that Dallas didn't have other needs, let me just say "Roy Williams" -- which now works on both sides of the ball!)

Kelly was hurt. If he went on IR, as he clearly should have, would that have been a "fail" in the draft?

So which argument do you want to make -- that they chose the wrong guys at the right positions, or that they chose the wrong positions?

Posted by: daggar | December 16, 2008 11:22 AM | Report abuse

Stop talking trades, not going to happen. The cap rules makes the ability to trade very narrow. Also we wouldnt get value for guy like Santana anyway, worth more for us playing.

Posted by: chrislarry | December 16, 2008 11:23 AM | Report abuse

When was the last time you saw a fade thrown to Kelly to utilize his size or a deep ball thrown to Thomas to utilize his speed? I can count maybe one of each over the course of the entire season! Last I checked it wasn't hard to learn how to run a fade pattern or a streak pattern...

Good job Zorn.

Posted by: hender_22 | December 16, 2008 11:26 AM | Report abuse

I think all NFL teams miss the boat on draft day when they ignore Div.1-AA players and some players from HSBC(Gramb.,Fla.A&M,et al) they are hungrier than players from Div 1 schools and they usually have a better work ethic than these players, any thoughts?

Posted by: dargregmag | December 16, 2008 11:31 AM | Report abuse

Trade Portis for a 1st or 2nd round pick, and trade down to later in the first round in the draft for another pick.

That would leave us with potentially 2 first round picks and a second, or a first round pick and two seconds, where we can address needs at O-Line, LB, and D-Line....

Thoughts?

Posted by: mrizzle | December 16, 2008 11:32 AM | Report abuse

pro bowl rosters come out today?

Posted by: FAB88 | December 16, 2008 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Yeah, chrislarry is right. We cant trade guys like Moss, Portis, Cooley, it just doesnt wipe their cap numbers clean. It wouldnt be financially prudent. And the Skins have the track record of not getting much value in their trades. If they trade any player I would see it being a current back up for a late rounder (6 or 7). The Skins would be best served to trade down or out of the 1st round and acquire quantity over quality draft positions. Especially with only 4 picks. You augment the draft with FA's they will have picked up by then and they could have significant upgrades next season. Of course if all depends on who is available in FA and on draft day.

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 16, 2008 11:37 AM | Report abuse

And what Vinny does with his picks... BPA is not the best strategy. Team needs Cerrato! Wake up!

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 16, 2008 11:40 AM | Report abuse

Just because Vinny says he drafts BPA (best player available) doesn't make it true. Last year he drafted for need, pure and simple. Saying those three receivers were the three highest-rated players on his board is a LIE designed to cover his inept butt. It's what EVERY GM says after every pick -- he was the highest rated guy on our board. None of them EVER say, "Well, we already have Peyton Manning at QB, so we passed over two QBs we had rated 4.3 in favor of a center we rated 4.1. Why? Because we need a damn center."

The fact that you guys still believe anything Vinny says tells me you're not all that bright.

Posted by: diesel_skins_ | December 16, 2008 11:52 AM | Report abuse

Take a page from the Pittsburgh Steelers,do not trade away draft choices and draft BLUE COLLAR players.

Posted by: kenobill | December 16, 2008 11:55 AM | Report abuse

This post makes up for the last post and the upcoming


"Why did the Skins let Sterling Palmer walk during Plan B Free Agency" post.

Posted by: cej75024 | December 16, 2008 11:57 AM | Report abuse

Personally, I think Buges should stay, he's IMO maximized what he could from the talent or lack there of at the O-line position. Its up to the front office to get better guys in here. Samuels, Jansen, and Heyer are great back-ups, we need new or established talent to replace them for starters. Cut Raback, he's a penalty machine and he can't seem to read blitzes correctly.

Posted by: clark202 | December 16, 2008 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Are we really talking about trading Cooley? You're kidding right? He's only the fan favorite and best player on our team. Yeah, Redskins fan have loyalty.

Say we pillage every other team in the league for 1st rounders by trading all of the guys you're suggesting. Are you saying Vinny will pick one player who's equal (not even better) caliber? No way; I don't think he's capable.

Posted by: Vinnymustgo | December 16, 2008 12:04 PM | Report abuse

The Skins can clear up some cap space. Not bad. Here's the problem in the offseason. We only have 4 draft picks this year; 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th. Traded 2nd round for Jason Taylor, 4th round for Pete Kendall and 7th round for Erasmus James. Taylor and Kendall will be gone in the offseason and James has been cut already. 3 players gone and 3 draft picks wasted again. Anyone see a pattern here?

Redskins Vinnie and Dan annual offseason sideshow has officially begun!!

Posted by: trueredskinsfan

JLac can you update the status of the 7th round conditional pick we gave Minnesota for James. Since he hardly played are you certain he met the playing clause conditions for us to cough up the pick?

Posted by: elfreako | December 16, 2008 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Dear Vinny,

Since this is the season of giving, please give us fans of the B&G a major gift by hiring a GM. HA, HA, HA! We know you won't do that, so let me help you design next year's team.

Both lines need to be overhauled. Convince Samuels to move to guard, keep Rabach at center, Rhinehart at RG, Heyer at either tackle and please DRAFT the best OT with the first pick. Start him from day one!

Jansen, Kendall, Fabini, Thomas are ALL backups this point in their careers. Get them all to take a pay cut.

As for the DL, let me paraphrase coach Homer Simpson. Carter you're cut, Taylor you're cut, Daniels you're cut, Corny G. it's been nice knowing ya!! Keep Evans, Boschetti, Wilson, Golston, Montgomery.

Vinny this next part you are gonna love! You can sign a big name FA. GO GET WARE!! Whatever it costs to get him away from the Cows, get him! You will cripple a division foe and make the D top 3! Tender him an offer so high, that Jerry would have to give Danny, i mean Mr. Snyder, a piece of his new stadium. Say, 7 years, $100 million.

Tell Springs, Marcus W. to beat it (too much $$$). Get 22 and 30 a juggs machine, i refuse to mention their names, and have them catch the ball 2 hours a day in the offseason. I guess we are stuck with the guys you drafted last year, but that's cool. Just make sure they show up in shape and KNOW the playbook. I know that you can do it Vinnie. I believe in you! Here's what the squad should look like.

QB - Campbell
RB - Portis, Betts
FB - Sellers
TE - Cooley, the alderman
WR - Moss, Kelly, Randle-el, the MSU bum
LT - Heyer
LG - Samuels
C - Rabach
RG - Rhinehart
RT - rookie

DE - Wilson, Evans
DT - Montgomery, Boschetti
DT - Golston
DE - Ware
LB - Honey Bun Blades
MLB- LFB
LB - the real Rock, from the ROCK
CB - Smoot, Tryon
CB - 22, Hall
FS - 30
SS - Horton

K - Anybody but Shuisham
P - A random rugby or Aussie rules baller
KR - the other Rock
PR - D. Thomas or D. Hall
LS - Albright

Yours truly,
Sami's Unk

PS I know this won't happen, but I can dream, can't I?

Posted by: samisunc | December 16, 2008 2:42 PM | Report abuse

Jason, this is absolutely the right conversation to have at this time. When the Redskins were strong and healthy the record was 6-2. Older experienced players become average after 8 games of pounding. This is a young mans game and the Skins need to get young fast. I can only hope that any free agent signings are for young players. Otherwise, the Redskins need to concentrate on rebuilding through the draft. We all try to ignore the impact of aging. Players can slow the physical decline by conditioning and experience, but the decline still happens. Older players take longer and longer to recover from the toll NFL games create on the body. Redskin fans are figuring out that successful teams build through the draft. Selling tickets and hope through sensational free agent signings (except Tom Brady) will not work much longer. So no Chad Johnson or other band-aid signings please.

Posted by: realityvision | December 16, 2008 5:14 PM | Report abuse

BeantownGreg, we most assuredly blew last year's draft. Not taking OL considering the injuries on the OL have killed us the last few years and once again neglecting the DE position cost us dearly. Had we taken DE Calias Campbell we would not have had to trade for Jason Taylor and we would have two more picks.

Here was my 2008 mock draft which I did on draft day:

(34) CB Brandon Flowers
(48) DE Calias Campbell
(51) WR Limas Sweed
(96) OT Anthony Collins
(124) QB John David Booty
(168) CB DeJuan Tribble
(186) DT Ahtybs Rubin
(242) WR Marcus Monk
(249) OG Kerry Brown

Posted by: fpickering | December 16, 2008 9:40 PM | Report abuse

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