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Offseason Workouts Begin (Update at End)

From Jason Reid:
Many Washington Redskins players returned to Redskins Park yesterday for the beginning of the voluntary offseason workout program. And although Jim Zorn has replaced Joe Gibbs as coach, much has remained the same because the majority of last season's coaching staff was retained, several players said.
"It's the same as normal," center Casey Rabach said. "That weirdness factor kind of left after a couple of weeks. We knew he [Gibbs] was going to be gone. We're just excited to see what a new coach brings to the table."
The Redskins are eager to learn Zorn's version of the West Coast offense, and the offense should thrive with a new approach, running back Clinton Portis said. "With Coach Zorn coming on board, I think it's going to be a more relaxed setting and things [will] open up," Portis said. "I'm sure you're going to see a lot of players go wild this year. Wild as in stats, not trouble wild.
"It's just going to be more of an opportunity to open up, spread out, and get [tight end Chris] Cooley in great position and put [wide receiver] Santana [Moss] in ..... we're just going to be exploiting matchups. I really think we're going to have an advantage to work one-on-one. We really didn't do a lot of that over the previous years."
While preparing for the Pro Bowl last month, Cooley got a head start in an offense similar to that of the system Zorn plans to implement. The Green Bay Packers' coaching staff coached the NFC squad in the Pro Bowl "and they run the exact same offense as we run, pretty much word for word what we do, and we got into quite a bit of it," Cooley said. "I've spent some time with Coach Zorn and I feel like I'll pick it up very quickly. I understand what I'm doing. Not to say that I didn't like our old offense, but it's an offense that I think I'll be more comfortable in."
The pass-oriented offense that former play-caller Al Saunders (the Redskins released Saunders in January and the St. Louis Rams quickly hired him as their offensive coordinator) is predicated on timing and rhythm. Quarterbacks throw to spots before receivers complete their routes, and then receivers, in theory, are supposed to make big gains running after catching balls in stride.
New offensive coordinator Sherman Smith will assist Zorn in devising game plans and Zorn will call plays. Cooley agreed with Portis's assessment that players will have more freedom in Zorn's offense, which won't rely as much on timing as Washington's previous system.
"It's going to give me a lot of options," Cooley said. "Say you're running an 'in route,' instead of just continuing to run 15 yards and run in to the middle of the field, I can stop if I feel there's a hole in the middle of the field. I can look for zones, and that's something that's one of my better assets as a football player, finding an open spot or a soft spot and giving the quarterback a target. I feel really confident in that, and this offense, from what I understand, is going to give me a lot of opportunity to do that."
Quarterback Jason Campbell worked in a version of the West Coast offense in his senior year at Auburn. Campbell has been in eight offensive systems the previous nine years.
"A lot got made about Jason being confused, or the last offense being too complicated, and I really don't believe that," Cooley said. "It takes a little time to learn anything. I really believe Jason can do a great job, and he's going to put in all the work to be our leader."
Campbell has become accustomed to change.
"It seems to be a routine thing for me now, so I'm kind of used to adjusting," Campbell said. "I've really enjoyed working with Coach Zorn lately, he's a very enthusiastic guy, he wants to teach me a lot of different things about the quarterback position."
Alexander's Role Won't Change: At the end of last season, the Redskins considered having versatile lineman Lorenzo Alexander -- he was a key contributor on of offense, defense and special teams as an undrafted rookie free agent -- concentrate on one position this offseason. Zorn, however, wants Alexander to continue working in a variety of roles.
"I talked to Coach Zorn. I'm going to have the same role," Alexander said. "He liked what was going on last year from film, as far as my role last year. It's fine. The more I can do the better. I like doing it. It's fun."
Askew Signed; Espy, Harris Released:The Redskins re-signed defensive tackle Matthias Askew, who was with them during the 2007 preseason. Askew, 6 feet 5 and 302 pounds, was a fourth-round selection of the Cincinnati Bengals in the 2004 draft. In addition, they released wide receivers Mike Espy and Steven Harris.

By Cindy Boren  |  March 17, 2008; 2:47 PM ET
 
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Hackett agrees to offer -- from Carolina
Next: Free Agency Ends; Roll Call for Workouts

Comments

Hooray!

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 17, 2008 2:55 PM | Report abuse

I am disgusted...plain and simple.

First, Gregg Williams is stabbed in the back. He could have gone elsewere to be a head coach two years ago, but was assured the head coach position here following a Gibbs departure. HE WAS LIED TO!

Then, promoting the biggest no talent in the history of football personnel men to be your head football guy.

Then, the circus to hire a new head coach.

Then, hiring a neophyte head coach.

Then, totally sitting back while good players of all price and skill level are snatched up by other teams, when you are in desparate need of filling holes and creating depth.

Then, acting as if Hackett is the second coming of Jerry Rice!

Are you FREAKING kidding me?

Is the Danny looking for the NFL eqiuivalent of a tax write off? Are we secretly trying to go 0-16 to get someone on the Danny's wish list in next year's draft.

At this point, we need to take the Caps approach from a couple of years ago...

Step 1. Trade all high priced older players for draft picks.

Step 2. Package those draft picks together to get higher draft picks.

Step 3. Draft well.

My list for potential trade bait is as follows:

1. Clinton Portis
2. Jason Campbell
3. Shawn Springs
4. Marcus Washington
5. Santana Moss

All of these, but Jason Campbell are on the down slide of their career. As for Jason, he will never develop to be an NFL caliber quarterback.

If we house clean in this way, it clears cap room for future free agents, and allows us to get some hungry, young blood in here.

If we don't bite the bullet now, we'll be eating that bullet next season.

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 17, 2008 2:56 PM | Report abuse

I love the decision to use Alexander on both sides of the ball. It's nice to have that flexibility and depth.

Posted by: HokiePaul | March 17, 2008 2:58 PM | Report abuse

I love alexander on both sides of the ball but he said in a previous interview he was tired of it and happy when promised by gibbs that he would go on offense-only. i dont think he's very happy right now.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 17, 2008 3:02 PM | Report abuse

Geelong opens its season on Thursday

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 17, 2008 3:03 PM | Report abuse

sports_guru, your comments in the first half of your post are too sensational and rediculous to even reply to. suffice to say, i disagree with every single one of them. several of them i disagree with because you state as fact things which simply were not true.

Now moving on to the part of your post after the rediculous rant:

Step 1: If we could do it, i would agree with you. However, no one would want our high-priced veterans. Aside from lack of interest, the cap ramifactions of doing this would kill us. Every year we restructure the deals of our older players, taking "theoretical" money and converting it into garaunteed money - the result being that our older players are, for the most part, untradeable - the cap hit would just be too large.

Step 2: Wouldnt work because step 1 wouldnt happen. Given that we won't have any extra draft picks, i am all for trading down out of the 1st if possible.

Step 3: Amen. If we draft really well the next two or three years, we will be set. Regarding players whom we could actually trade, the only one with any value is Jason Campbell. And I think we should trade him right now to a team like Miami.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 17, 2008 3:10 PM | Report abuse

So if you trade Campbell, are you going to start Collins?

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 17, 2008 3:14 PM | Report abuse

Thank God sports guru isn't our GM. We would be in salary cap hell for the next 10 years.


Posted by: ptoro | March 17, 2008 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Sports_guru is just having fun with you. No one in their right mind can go along with that.

Good one SG!!!!

Posted by: rallenii | March 17, 2008 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Awesome post. Great quotes!

Love that Lorenzo Alexander (who desperately needs a nickname) is still going to be doing everything except be under center. Love, love, love that.

Posted by: PDiddy | March 17, 2008 3:21 PM | Report abuse

I alluded to it in my previous post, but I figure I should explain my reasons for beleiving we should trade Jason Campbell:

1) First and Foremost, Jason Campell does not fit the most of a WCO QB. In fact, his skills and weaknesses are the exact opposite of what you look for in a WCO QB.

2) We have Todd Collins. He is a veteran QB who is your IDEAL WCO QB.

3) This is a very weak year for QBs in the draft. Jason Campbell is more attractive to another team than ANY QB in the draft. I imagine a team like Miami or Atlanta would give us their 2nd and 3rd rounder for Jason Campbell in a heartbeat. This would allow them to fill their other needs in the draft. This draft has quite a few QBs slotted to go in the 2nd and 3rd rounds who would make ideal WCO QBs

4) Jasons value is very high now. Before getting injured, he was doing nothing but impress. If he struggles this year under the WCO, it will only hurt his value to us.

5) We really need to build depth along our offensive and defensive lines this year. We need a starting cornerback and we need a #2 WR.


Please understand that I am not knocking Jason Campbell and i think he is an exceptional QB. But he is not a WCO quarterback and we have Todd Collins. Jason Campbell simply has more value to us right now in a trade than he has to us under center.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 17, 2008 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Man , there's some serious negativity happening today people. My gut tells me Zorn's going to work out, but my mind tells me I'm crazy. I'll give it a year. In the mean time the front office is acting like a front office. Not like a bunch of pre-teens playing they're first game of Halo. Maybe Danny boys getting older and wiser. Lets hope, so. Next year if we're in the same position with no growth. Let the true negativity begin.

Done worry be happy.

Posted by: Berndaddy | March 17, 2008 3:26 PM | Report abuse

If we house clean in this way, it clears cap room for future free agents, and allows us to get some hungry, young blood in here.

If we don't bite the bullet now, we'll be eating that bullet next season.

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 17, 2008 02:56 PM

We just restructed most of those contracts. which allowed them to spread the bonus out over the life of the contracts. If you trade those contracts, The full bonus is applied to your cap THIS YEAR. They would be unable to field a team this year. As far as the Caps, I do believe they were starting from scratch since the NHL had cancelled a season which allowed the teams to restructure their books.

Posted by: roweq | March 17, 2008 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Sports Guru, feels like the St. Patrick is calling you to log out. Fortunately, "services" in his honor are all over the place today.

Lozo (does that work? what does Smoot call him?) should be the #2 fullback ... like the re-invented Klecko.

Posted by: dcsween | March 17, 2008 3:31 PM | Report abuse

Ummm, yeah. Sports Guru really should change his name.

1. How do you know Gregg Williams was lied to? He was never quoted as saying he'll be the next coach after Gibbs, nor was it in his contract. It was speculated as such by the media and fans.

2. Correct me if I'm wrong but nobody (In the Redskins organization) said Hackett was the next Jerry Rice. Maybe some fans or media did but the skins didn't.

3. If we "cleaned house" by cutting all those players we would be biting the bullet next season. That would only cause dead cap space and we couldn't sign anyone.

Posted by: isonic1 | March 17, 2008 3:34 PM | Report abuse

Im really annoyed that everybody is down on JC, I thought he played exceptional last year despite everybody else on the offensive side of the ball. We couldnt establish the run virtually all season due to injuries and portis not being a gibbs-esque rb. Our receivers were banged up all year and even when they were healthy they couldnt hang on to the ball (anyone remember the green bay game?). Cut JC some slack, hes good, hes the future of this franchise, and qbs of his talent are a dime a dozen. It takes time, look at Eli.

Posted by: gtstang9t3 | March 17, 2008 3:44 PM | Report abuse

CASEY RABACH

Anyone else see the video of Rabach arriving at Redskin Park in two cars? One for him, one for his Package.

Posted by: corkczar | March 17, 2008 3:46 PM | Report abuse

Sports_Guru go away.

Posted by: tsbrul | March 17, 2008 3:48 PM | Report abuse

+++I love the decision to use Alexander on both sides of the ball. It's nice to have that flexibility and depth.

Posted by: HokiePaul | March 17, 2008 02:58 PM++++

Me too. Now take some of that cap money not spent on Hackett or others and give Alexander a long contract extension to lock him up before he becomes MORE expensive.

Posted by: corkczar | March 17, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Why don't we just trade our entire team to dallas for their team. Would that make the skins better? You guys are CRAZY. Trading JC? The guy has earned at least one more year under center. 09 I'm noncommittal on at this time.

Posted by: Veretax | March 17, 2008 3:52 PM | Report abuse

I love how people just assume JC can't do well in a WC offense. He played in a similar scheme at Auburn when he was a senior and completed around 70% of his passes. Yeah, let's trade him for a 2nd and a 3rd when we gave up multiple picks in order to get him 3 years ago. I like Collins but can't say I'd want to see him over a 16 game schedule and then when he is done in a year or 2 we are back to qb carousel. Sheesh.

Posted by: cdubb | March 17, 2008 3:56 PM | Report abuse

SETH.LEMASTER,

I disagree, no wait I agree. Go back and read your post, clearly you think JC is an excellent QB, but he's just not THE one you want.

Your only reason to trade JC is because he's not a real WCO QB. I don't agree. Or I'm willing to accept Zorn's judgment (competition for QB is over, JC is the starter).

I'm anxious to see how he does when he's not running for his life. Base on the recent comments by players, JC may be more comfortable in the WCO, than he was in Saunder's system.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 17, 2008 4:14 PM | Report abuse

Eh, Thanks for the Beep Beep on the last page that never came!!

I gotta give it to the 'skins. The front office is making a point and sticking to it. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that there is no alternative motive for them doing this.

Hey, JayZ has seen Hackett work everyday for 4 years. If he needed him, the redskins would have def ponied up the mula. But, they didn't, so he wasn't important.


Posted by: 4thFloor | March 17, 2008 03:54 PM

Posted by: 4thFloor | March 17, 2008 4:17 PM | Report abuse

"I'll give it a year. In the mean time the front office is acting like a front office. Not like a bunch of pre-teens playing they're first game of Halo."

Nice work Bern.

LMGO

Who'd a thunk it?

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 17, 2008 4:20 PM | Report abuse

Stumped, do you remember when Gibbs first came here and the very first thing he did was praise Ramsey and state that he was the starter? Then what did he do? He went out and got Mark Brunell. Then, remember when he praised MB and said he was the undisputed starter... we went out and got Jason Campbell.

Coaches will say whatever they need to say at the moment. We don't know the form of the WCO that Zorn plans to run here. its possible he will modify the offense to suit JCs strengths and cover his weakenesses. However, i strongly feel a new HC (especially one who is offensively minded) is going to want two things to make his job easier:

1) A Veteran QB he can trust, who is familiar with his system and not screw things up

2) he's going to want to draft a QB and mold him to be a future starter.

Obviously, we dont know anything about zorn and we dont know anything about campbell under a zorn offense. But at this point, i feel strongly Collins gives Zorn the best chance to succede NOW and that JC is more valuable to another team than he is to zorn.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 17, 2008 4:21 PM | Report abuse

SETH.LEMASTER,

A agree with both points above, without reservation. In fact, I made point 2 myself up here not too long ago.

1) We have re-signed Collins.
2) They're looking for a number 3. (Zorn, QB turned QB coach, turned Head Coach just won't be able to resist drafting a young QB).

But we disagree on JC, because I think he needs another season to prove he is who we think he is and yet another season to really hit his prime.

It sounds like you'd rather capitalize on JC's trade value now.

But as someone already asked: What do you do in a few years when Collins can't play? Use the draft for another young prospect.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 17, 2008 4:30 PM | Report abuse

Seth said, "i dont think he's very happy right now"

How could you write this DESPITE Lorenzo Alexander HIMSELF stating, " I like doing it. It's fun."

I don't get that. How can you be that stupid? He, LORENZO stated, "I like doing it. It's fun"

You translate that to mean "he's not happy".

Wow...just wow...this is a new low...

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 17, 2008 4:32 PM | Report abuse

So, who do the hamsters up here think was the best Redskins Quarterback of all time?

We're all entitled to our opinion. Even SG and Pooly.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 17, 2008 4:35 PM | Report abuse

The development of a QB takes patience. JC has all the tools, but just needs to develop. if he doesn't perform then perhaps Collins should get the nod. We just need a winning QB regardless of who it is. Todd Collins looked like a backup in the Seattle game.

Posted by: rickyroge | March 17, 2008 4:42 PM | Report abuse

Oh yeah...that pick that JC threw against Tampa was horrible, but he's still my guy. Hey...Bret Favre threw picks like water.

Posted by: rickyroge | March 17, 2008 4:45 PM | Report abuse

rr, that might have been due to Collins having to throw with Pat Kerney in his grille every down.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 17, 2008 4:46 PM | Report abuse

I believe Jason Campbell was in a WCO his senior year at Auburn. I think he won a championship that year also...with Anthony Mix...hmmmm? Everyone chill on JC, he's gonna be great, especially with not having "timed" routes. Players getting jammed at the line causes disruptions in that system. I think we'll be ok in a couple years. GO SKINS!!!

Posted by: rhyde | March 17, 2008 4:52 PM | Report abuse

I though Lorenzo Alexander's nickname was Scarface???

Is it possible that the change in attitude in to F.O. this offseason has something to do with Vinnie actually being in charge? Perhaps Mr Snyder has taken a back seat and let Uncle Junior call the shots.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 17, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Sports Guru

Tip: Stop eating paint chips.

Posted by: sams3 | March 17, 2008 5:02 PM | Report abuse

If the front office thought Hackett was the next Jerry Rice, why did they offer him eleven dollars and some coupons to the Sizzler? Everyone here knows that Anthony Mix is the next Jerry Rice, anyway.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 17, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

The greatest 'Skins QB of all time is obviously Dan Marino. Duh.

--PaddyDiddy

Posted by: PDiddy | March 17, 2008 5:05 PM | Report abuse

David Woodley!

O'riginal_etrod.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Happy St.Patrick's Day people! I hope you're all wetting your whistles with a nice green beveridge or 13!

And if your boss gives you evils for coming to work tomorrow a little green you just tell him 'Pog Mo Thoin!'

Posted by: kost52 | March 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Well, maybe Rich Gannon.

--PaddyDiddy

Posted by: PDiddy | March 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Report abuse

If the front office thought Hackett was the next Jerry Rice, why did they offer him eleven dollars and some coupons to the Sizzler? Everyone here knows that Anthony Mix is the next Jerry Rice, anyway.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 17, 2008 05:04 PM


And if that doesn't work, we're going to try Lorenzo Alexander at wideout!

Posted by: kost52 | March 17, 2008 5:08 PM | Report abuse

*** St. Patrick's Alert ***

Okay, it's after 5:00 here on the East Coast. By now you should have finished your case of Guinness and cracked open your bottle of Jameson's. If you're behind this schedule, then chug-a-lug: the schedule was laid down by St. Patrick, himself, on his 28th birthday. It's part of what made him a saint.

*** end of St. Patrick's Alert ***

talent_o'valuator

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 17, 2008 5:11 PM | Report abuse

While promoting a position coach to HC has me a bit wary of what next season will look like, I do think there's a lot of potential for this team. I think Cooley and especially Portis are much more suited to the WCO. I never thought Portis was a good fit for what Gibbs liked in a RB. If he can make it through the preseason healthy I think he'll remind folks of that explosive RB we saw in Denver (and that the Broncos have yet to replace even with their RB "friendly" system).

- mtnskinsfanahan

Posted by: mtnskinsfan | March 17, 2008 5:37 PM | Report abuse

Must give a shout to jason for letting me know about all the fans I have here on the blog. I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!

Posted by: poolman | March 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Must give a shout to jason for letting me know about all the fans I have here on the blog. I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!

Posted by: poolman | March 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Must give a shout to jason for letting me know about all the fans I have here on the blog. I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!

Posted by: poolman | March 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Must give a shout to jason for letting me know about all the fans I have here on the blog. I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!

Posted by: poolman | March 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Must give a shout to jason for letting me know about all the fans I have here on the blog. I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!

Posted by: poolman | March 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Must give a shout to jason for letting me know about all the fans I have here on the blog. I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!

Posted by: poolman | March 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Must give a shout to jason for letting me know about all the fans I have here on the blog. I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!

Posted by: poolman | March 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Must give a shout to jason for letting me know about all the fans I have here on the blog. I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!

Posted by: poolman | March 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

I tell you what, some of these draft prospects aren't exactly helping their cause are they. With Calais Campbell's poor showings, Phillip Merling had a lot to gain by performing well at his Pro-Day, but he didn't workout because of injury. Now Malcolm Kelly, who could've cemented his spot as the #1 WR in the draft has pulled out of his Pro-Day.

The poor performances of these DE's must be getting USC's Lawrence Jackson excited. He had been look at as a 2nd rounder, but now teams (like us) will be looking at him in the late 1st round, even though he's expected to not be a superstar but a solid consistent contributor.

Posted by: kost52 | March 17, 2008 6:20 PM | Report abuse

LET'S GIVE JIM ZORN A CHANCE, THE OTHER STUFF IS WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE AS THEY SAY. WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS WATCH OUR SPENDING, DRAFT WELL, AND MAKE SENSIBLE TRADES. I'M NOT SAYING BEING TO PASSIVE, BUT SOMEWHAT AGGRESSIVE. WE HAVE TALENT ON THIS TEAM . THX GO SKINS! P.S. MAN I MISS SEAN TAYLOR.

Posted by: bazookajd | March 17, 2008 6:47 PM | Report abuse

Interesting article on this year's DL draft prospects.

http://www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=6813&source=rss

Posted by: marlonjohn | March 17, 2008 6:49 PM | Report abuse

Um...has anyone on this board ever actually seen Mix play? Not to say he's bad, but the fact that he's got size does not by itself mean that he's loaded with potential.

Posted by: A_Fly_Moses | March 17, 2008 6:49 PM | Report abuse

Rich Gannon, Trent Green, Sage Rosenfels...no seriously, best Skins QB has got to be either Sonny Jurgensen or John Friesz.

Posted by: p1funk | March 17, 2008 6:53 PM | Report abuse

Casey Rabach on the offseason program and the Redskins: "It's the same as normal".

...I genuinely don't know if that is a good or bad thing...

-McFunk

Posted by: p1funk | March 17, 2008 6:55 PM | Report abuse

AMEN!!!!! Guru you can tell by the name that his GM career would be very short lived...... However, its a new beginning at Redskins Park, Give the them a chance.
I love the approach thus far, we are no longer setting players up for their life after football with those sick lucrative contract.

Posted by: bbejr2001 | March 17, 2008 6:58 PM | Report abuse

Just heard that Santana got married.....

Posted by: Lisa_R | March 17, 2008 6:59 PM | Report abuse

POP QUIZ

Sports_Guru is a:
a) Moron
b) Idiot
c) Know-Nothing
d) All of the above

Please keep your responses simple so he can understand them.

Posted by: tafka | March 17, 2008 6:59 PM | Report abuse

I don't get this

News & Notes: Espy, Harris Released
By Gary Fitzgerald
Redskins.com
March 17, 2008


The Redskins have released wide receivers Mike Espy and Steven Harris, the team has announced on Monday.
Espy was set to assume a more prominent role on the Redskins' offense last year when he suffered a knee injury in preseason. He was placed on injured reserve following surgery, ending his season.

An undrafted rookie pickup in 2006, Espy spent time on the Redskins' practice squad that year before being promoted to the 53-man roster midseason. He saw action in one game.

Harris had suffered a knee ligament during a 2007 mini-camp practice. He was placed on injured reserve following surgery.

Harris spent the 2005-06 seasons on the Redskins' practice squad. He was originally signed by the Redskins as an undrafted rookie in 2005.

Posted by: marlonjohn | March 17, 2008 7:20 PM | Report abuse

Happy St. Patrick's Day, everyone! Please remember: 1) the beer is green; 2) the corned beef is not; 3) tip your waitress or waiter; and 4) designate a driver. Well, okay, that last one should be No. 1. You get my drift.

Posted by: TheCindy | March 17, 2008 7:25 PM | Report abuse

I don't understand why they released Espy...especially right NOW....makes no sense.

Posted by: Lisa_R | March 17, 2008 7:44 PM | Report abuse

I also have no clue on the Espy thing. BTW Sports Guru has been partying too hard this bast few days.

Posted by: alex35332 | March 17, 2008 7:46 PM | Report abuse

Also I cant wait to see JC passing from outside the pocket and being more on the move in a new offense.

Posted by: alex35332 | March 17, 2008 7:49 PM | Report abuse

You'd have to think that maybe there have been some issues in his recovery, because you're right, there is no logical reason for his release at this stage. Sure he was always going to be up against it with Mix's ST emergence, Caldwell's like resigning and a potential Rookie WR, but still.

Posted by: kost52 | March 17, 2008 8:07 PM | Report abuse

Good article on FA signing and spending.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/031808dnspogosselin.28cf9c5.html

Smart NFL teams spend little in free agency

--------------------------

Greg,

Was not sure if you are still at work. Let me know if you want me to post the article.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 17, 2008 8:10 PM | Report abuse

Hey Kerzon, interesting how this Dallas paper still found a way to bash us even though we're following the same track that they're praising. What a hack. Maybe I'll email him too.
PS. never got another response from that loser writter from San Fran that said we would make the biggest, most ridiculous FA signing.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 17, 2008 8:15 PM | Report abuse

I couldn't help it, this is the email I sent. I tried to be a little less pissed off with this one in an attempt to get an actual response but I fear that my annoyance has still shone through:

Overall this was a good article but being a Redskin fan (which I'm sure in your mind puts me at the bottom of the barrel) it amazes me how you managed to bash this team even though the man you mention (London Fletcher) had great numbers this year while remaining healthy. He also helped us beat a Dallas team that was supposed to be extraordinary during the season but actually managed to end up being quite pathetic. You just couldn't bring yourself with your journalistic integrity to praise us for following the exact same path that you are so impressed with (as long as it's a different team following that path.) Well good luck to you and your rose colored glasses.


Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 17, 2008 8:23 PM | Report abuse

Scampbell,

You probably won't get a response from this "writer" either. The media loves to bash the Skins at every opportunity.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 17, 2008 8:31 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: JustMe | March 17, 2008 9:05 PM | Report abuse

Scampbell,

Not a bad e-mail, you sounded like a Skins fan. Let us know if you get a response.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 17, 2008 9:34 PM | Report abuse

Redskins sign defensive tackle Askew, release receivers Espy, Harris
4 hours ago

ASHBURN, Va. -- The Washington Redskins signed defensive tackle Matthias Askew on Monday, bringing back a player they waived before last season.

The six-foot-five, 302-pound Askew played in five games in 2004 and one in 2005 with the Cincinnati Bengals, who drafted him in the fourth round out of Michigan State.

The Bengals waived him before the 2006 season. He was with the Redskins during the 2007 pre season before being let go.

Askew filed a US$50 million lawsuit against the city of Cincinnati in 2006, accusing police officers of excessive force when they used a stun gun to subdue him.

In other moves Monday, the Redskins released wide receivers Mike Espy and Steven Harris.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 17, 2008 9:48 PM | Report abuse

Obviously no touches available for Espy in this offense, with Mr. Everything Lorenzo Alexander taking snaps at wideout. Uh huh.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 17, 2008 10:24 PM | Report abuse

Hey Kost, does Geelong open on Thursday? What should we be looking for?

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 17, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

I can't believe SPORTS GURU is still whining about Gregg Williams...

Good riddance....my Buffalo Bills fan friends who hate the Redskins were hoping we would make him our head coach.

When he dropped out...their statement was plain & simple: "Wow...your team just dodged a bullet.....maybe they do know what they are doing"

Anyhoo....i'm liking what I hear from the players.....there is some form of continuity in the playbook terminology (which is the real difference b/w teams' playbooks) and the players seem to like what they see so far.

Bring on the 2008 season.....we do better when there are no expectations!!!

And SportsGuru.....take your time-delayed ranting back with the rest of the boobirds.

Posted by: goosedude | March 17, 2008 10:46 PM | Report abuse

"It's just going to be more of an opportunity to open up, spread out, and get [tight end Chris] Cooley in great position and put [wide receiver] Santana [Moss] in ..... "

Thank god these practices are closed.

And in further news, Sports_Guru should spend less time playing with his bottle of lotion while listening to Jim Rome, Skip Bayless, Steven A Smith, Woody Paige and all the other unnecessarily angry sportscasters.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | March 17, 2008 10:57 PM | Report abuse

Hey Kost, does Geelong open on Thursday? What should we be looking for?

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 17, 2008 10:30 PM


Yep! Season starts Thursday, Friday over there, the Geelong Cats play in the second game of a Double-header in a Grand Final rematch, should be good! Working out my viewing arrangements right now.

Good to see you got home safe and sound zcezcest1!

Posted by: kost52 | March 17, 2008 11:11 PM | Report abuse

I wonder if Espy is having trouble recovering from that injury.

Otherwise why release him?

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 12:58 AM | Report abuse

Ok, I know Ive had several pints of Guiness and shots of Yager, but despite all of that SETH and Sports Guru still make no friggin sense.....at all. As a mattter of fact I think they are quite possiby the dumbest posters Ive ever read. BOTH of you guys are just IGNORANT. and I mean that with all my heart. Please shut up and NEVER post again. Ok now go away, thank you and good night

Posted by: allpropc | March 18, 2008 1:17 AM | Report abuse

Obviously no touches available for Espy in this offense, with Mr. Everything Lorenzo Alexander taking snaps at wideout. Uh huh.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 17, 2008 10:24 PM

No! The plan was for Espy to be a wideout when Lorenzo Alexander takes snaps as third string QB. Maybe they're working Alexander as a kick returner instead?

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 5:27 AM | Report abuse

Good morning Hamsters... I hope we all survived the night (or day kost).

Not a lot of chatter up here, I was hoping to read some drogging up here (drunk blogging). I believe that is the offseason at its finest. Once that starts, I know draft day is right around the corner.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 6:33 AM | Report abuse

Bring on the 2008 season.....we do better when there are no expectations!!!

Posted by: goosedude | March 17, 2008 10:46 PM

This is the only reason I'm sane in this very crazy maroon and black world!

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 7:36 AM | Report abuse

Hey everybody, good morning,

I set up a Redskins Insider NCAA men's hoops tournament group at Yahoo!, and invited all the blog peeps for whom I had an email address.

If you want to join the fun, and everybody is welcome!, please ping me ASAP at nateinthepdx at gmail dot com. We only have 'til Thursday, so time's a-wastin.' And we know from time wastin' up here.

Cheers,
Nate in the PDX*

* home of the Portland State Vikings, your first round upset special

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 8:18 AM | Report abuse

I'm going to attribute the ridiculous postings by certain members to green beer. I mean, why else would some people say the things that they said.

I'm curious as to who is staying away from the voluntary workouts.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 8:41 AM | Report abuse

Greg,

Morning news,
JETS CAVING TO COLES?
Posted by Mike Florio on March 18, 2008, 7:59 a.m.
A year after a lingering dispute with guard Pete Kendall created a distraction throughout the offseason and into training camp and the preseason, the Jets apparently have learned a thing or two about how to deal with players to whom promises allegedly have been made regarding an adjustment to the players' contracts.

According to Dave Hutchinson of the Newark Star-Ledger, the Jets and disgruntled receiver Laveranues Coles are quietly negotiating a resolution to an impasse that has prompted him not to show up for the launch of the team's offseason conditioning program.

Others who might be watching the situation carefully include tight end Chris Baker and safety Kerry Rhodes, both of whom reportedly want new contracts, but have reported for the commencement of the "voluntary" sessions.

Coles previously has accused the team of lying to him about providing a long-term deal. He is signed through 2009.

Posted by: kmdp4 | March 18, 2008 8:42 AM | Report abuse

Greg,

As long as Zorn is aware of the reason, and they are training somewere else, I can live with it, but I to would like to know the names.

I agree with you on the comments last night, I did not rip anyone because I figured the Beer had something to do with it.

Posted by: kmdp4 | March 18, 2008 8:45 AM | Report abuse

km, thanks for the update, and yeah, perhaps I should have been a little more tolerant.

But then on the other hand, when a player states, "I'm having fun", and someone translates that to mean, "I'm unhappy" they need to get called on it. Drunk or not..

Getting rid of Coles, was one of the better trades that the Redskins made. They got younger, more talented, less expensive, and less drama with Moss.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 8:55 AM | Report abuse

Portland State Vikings?

Yes, who can forget the Nordic warriors reign of terror in the Pacific Northwest?

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 8:58 AM | Report abuse

I hope releasing Espy doesn't turn into Chris Clemons part II. I thought they were high on this guy? Seems strange they would keep him on IR the entire season only to cut him before any offseason training began. Maybe his injury didn't heal the way they liked.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 9:01 AM | Report abuse

Re: Espy, the knee injury he suffered last year was supposedly a really bad one. Unfortunately, maybe the 'Skins think he no longer has the promise they once saw in him.

Re: Collins and Campbell, the 'Skins would have to be crazy to trade Jason at this point. Yes, he did come up short at the end of several games last season, but he has made huge strides in the relatively short time that he has been the starter, and to conclude at this time in his career that he will never be an NFL-calibre starter, as "Sports Guru" has, is w-a-a-a-y
premature. Last season one of the ex-qbs who is now a network talking head (I don't remember which one) was commenting on Campbell's late game failures and said that the ability to get his team in the end zone in such situations is the one of the hardest, and last, skills that young QBs develop. I tend to agree, and I'd give him more time before I pulled the plug.

Also, Collins is an ideal backup, but I wouldn't want him as my starter over the long haul. A lot of people were seduced by his performance late last year, but we should remember that D-Coordinators around the league had no video tape on him and were therefore handicapped initially in trying to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of his game. Once they had some games to analyze, they were able to do things, most notably in the Seattle game, that exposed his weaknesses: a lack of arm strength and a lack of mobility (two things that Campbell has in abundance). Their DBs played an inside technique on our receivers, forcing Collins to throw to the outside, and those passes took an awfully long time to get there. They also pressured Collins, and he didn't have the mobility to make plays with his legs once the play broke down.

In short, it would make no sense whatsoever for the 'Skins to give up on Campbell prematurely and go with Collins as the starter.

Posted by: rbpalmer | March 18, 2008 9:11 AM | Report abuse

Is there an RI Bracket?

Posted by: 4thFloor | March 18, 2008 9:16 AM | Report abuse

4th,

Read 6 posts up and you will see Nate is doing one.

Posted by: kmdp4 | March 18, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

4th, did you not get an invite? Thought I copied you. Ping me at nateinthepdx at gmail dot com.

Lots of Vikings out here, etrod. Lots. You'd be surprised.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 9:21 AM | Report abuse

Greg,

more news,
HALL'S DEMANDS ARE STALLING A DEAL
Posted by Mike Florio on March 18, 2008, 8:43 a.m.
The thinking in some league circles as a result of the apparently stalled discussions on a trade between the Atlanta Falcons and the Oakland Raiders for cornerback DeAngelo Hall is that Hall and his agent are preventing a deal via their contractual demands.

Per a league source, Hall's financial expectations previously have killed possible trades to the New York Giants and the Jacksonville Jaguars. By all appearances, Hall's position on what he wants to get paid will keep a deal from getting done with the Raiders, too.

But let's consider this from Hall's perspective. The Falcons clearly don't want him, so maybe they'll eventually cut him. And if/when they cut him, Hall might be able to get more money on the open market, if the team that wants to acquire his services doesn't also have to give up a second-round draft pick, and a sixth-rounder.

Hall's other alternative is to play for the Falcons in 2008, and become the Asante Samuel of the 2009 free-agency class, getting grossly overpaid on the first day of the annual spending spree.

The only problem for Hall is that, by getting the wheels in motion for a trade via his behavior in 2007, Hall's failure to do what he has to do to make a trade happen is causing some to conclude even more forcefully that he's an ass, which in turn could soften the demand for his services if/when he's on the market.

Posted by: kmdp4 | March 18, 2008 9:27 AM | Report abuse

Nate, I stand corrected.

I paid no attention to college b-ball this season so I had to resort to uniforms and mascots as my basis for bracket picks this year.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 9:35 AM | Report abuse

Just sent you an email NAte......

Posted by: 4thFloor | March 18, 2008 9:35 AM | Report abuse

I'm curious as to who is staying away from the voluntary workouts.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 08:41 AM

It would surprise me a little if anyone stayed away, primarily b/c the past several weeks (post-season) must have been the hardest part of the delayed grieving process for a fallen teammate. To move forward with that process, it would seem most helpful to be back with teammates. I know that everyone does (and that Skins players did) grieve differently, e.g., some just wanted to be alone with it whereas others sought out each other, but it would still be interested in finding out who elected not to return for the comraderie part of it.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 9:50 AM | Report abuse

Hamsters! We need to re-focus and hone our efforts on jibba jabba and keeping it Skins-relevant. There must be a dozen responses to Sports_Guru, where a single ITA would have be a sufficient response.

The REAL news on this thread?
________________

Just heard that Santana* got married.....

Posted by: Lisa_R | March 17, 2008 06:59 PM
________________

Plus the link from JustMe about what next re: Skins receivers (essentially, re-sign Caldwell and/or McCardell, maybe trade for McDonald from Detroit ... which also happens to have been an idea floated by yours dcsweenily last week ....).

Kudos to these two fine women of RI for keeping it correct.

* Of course, like the Rabach "issue", Steinberg has also delivered us more than enough information than we'd ever want to know about this star WR.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 9:58 AM | Report abuse

Hopefully all of the U of Miami players will show up rather than stay down in Coral Gables and work out on their own, like many of them do.....

Posted by: dlhaze1 | March 18, 2008 9:58 AM | Report abuse

Greg,

More news,
BOWLEN BLAMES "DYSFUNCTIONAL RELATIONSHIP"
Posted by Michael David Smith on March 18, 2008, 9:50 a.m.
Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen says his former general manager, Ted Sundquist, didn't have the right chemistry to work with head coach Mike Shanahan, and that's why Sundquist was fired.

"There was in my mind a dysfunctional relationship between the head coach and the general manager," Bowlen told Mike Klis of the Denver Post. "Not that they didn't like each other. It just didn't seem the proper chemistry was there. I'm not blaming either party."

Last year, another AFC West owner, Dean Spanos of the Chargers, also described the relationship between his coach and his general manager as "dysfunctional." In that case, it was the coach, Marty Schottenheimer, who was sent packing, and the general manager, A.J. Smith, who got to keep his job.

But in San Diego, the general manager was the coach's boss. In Denver, the coach was the general manager's boss, as Bowlen made clear, saying, "Ted was the general manager and Mike is the vice president of football operations, so Ted works for Mike."

And since Ted works for Mike and Mike got his way, that means Mike is the one who will be held responsible if the Broncos again miss the playoffs in 2008. Bowlen seems to have sent that message to Shanahan.

"When the season was over, Mike and I had a number of discussions of how we were going to right the ship," Bowlen said. "It went from players to coaches to football personnel. That's just part of what you do, because I'm not in this business to have seasons like we did last season."

Bowlen was harsh in his assessment of the Broncos' 2007 season, saying that last year the Broncos had a "dysfunctional locker room and a coaching staff that I think everybody would agree was not in sync," and adding that in his conversations with Shanahan, "we both agreed we needed to make significant changes across the board, including in the locker room where we had some bad guys."

This year, Sundquist has taken the fall for those "bad guys." Shanahan had better hope no one has to take a fall next year.

Posted by: kmdp4 | March 18, 2008 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Mark my words...Mike Espy will be great somewhere else. I wanted him to play for us soooo badly.

Posted by: rhyde | March 18, 2008 10:01 AM | Report abuse

Mark my words...Mike Espy will be great somewhere else. I wanted him to play for us soooo badly.

Posted by: rhyde | March 18, 2008 10:01 AM

The 'Skins see the guy every day. You've only seen him in a few exhibition games. Why do you think the 'Skins cut him if he's going to be great? Either you know something they don't, or they know something you don't.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 10:07 AM | Report abuse

Mike Espy is 5'11" and, in this past preseason, could not earn a roster spot returning kicks or punts. Steven Harris is 5'10" and reportedly was very fast. Espy replicates (but not completely) Randel El, and Harris did so for Santana.

The Skins had ELEVEN receivers on the roster! Last season, Gibbs and Saunders were picking receivers like [insert metaphor about something you pick up too many of]. SOMETHING had to give roster-wise. If the idea is that they want to get "taller" at WR, then the short depth either goes on the rack or gets cut.

Both guys coming off injuries. Now is the best time of year for them to become free agents.

I support those roster decisions.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 10:11 AM | Report abuse

If Mike Espy were any good to us, he would still be on the roster.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 10:11 AM | Report abuse

Have we just seen the Mike Espy, and Chris Clemon become the new Antonio Pierce?

I don't get it, I really don't. Let see how QUICK Espy gets snatched up by the 31 other teams, because I mean, he's so INCREDIBLY talented that they must be falling all over each other to bid for his services.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Mathias Askew also is a fine addition. I don't remember why he didn't make the roster last season ... probably he was brought in late and the Skins had not invested a draft pick in him.

He is 6'5" and 300 pounds. The only bigger DT on the roster is Montgomery. [Cornelius is 6'4" and heavier.] He was a 4th rounder by the Bengals (and Montgomery and Golsten where 5th and 6th rounders, respectively). I only remember that he got brought in late in the preseason b/c it was the same day the Skins cut Lemar Marshall and Kyle Brown (thus almost ridding themselves of MSU Spartans). Fortunately, the Skins reminded themselves that you can't get far without a little green and white and hired Askew the same day.

I support this roster decision.

[Paid for by the dcsween Committee on Response to Roster Decisions.]

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 10:16 AM | Report abuse

If the Redskins could only trot out DJ Hackett at one wideout spot, and Mike Espy at the other, they'd be the front runners for the Super Bowl.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 10:17 AM | Report abuse

greg(b), Antonio Pierce actually started for the Skins. I know that Clemons got rotated in situationally. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall that Espy actually played in a regular season game.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 10:18 AM | Report abuse

If the Redskins could only trot out DJ Hackett at one wideout spot, and Mike Espy at the other, they'd be the front runners for the Super Bowl.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 10:17 AM

Don't take this the wrong way, but after midnight last night, you were supposed to stop drinking and get working on your hangover. [I know this because I hear bagpipes right now, which are Scottish, not Irish, so I can only attribute this to my post-midnight work.]

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 10:20 AM | Report abuse

Espy was cut because if the Redskins kept him and Mix on the roster, the star power would have been too great for Jason Campbell to deal with. Poor JC's head would explode trying to decide which future hall of famer to throw to.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 10:23 AM | Report abuse

dc, I said that in jest. There seems to be some wailing and gnashing of teeth in regard to not getting hacket, combined with letting all-world Chris Clemons go, and then that gets trumped by today, releasing Mike Espy. I mean, just what are they doing down there. You don't just let talent like Mike Espy walk out the door. That will come back to bite the Redskins in the arse. Mark my words.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 10:26 AM | Report abuse

greg(b), OK then ... I missed the jest ... must be the bagpipes. Also, consider your words marked ... I'm not exactly sure that "mark my words" means, so I used a highlighter on my computer screen. I'm pretty sure that the highlighter will transfer through to the text of your post.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Report abuse

actually dc, that is exactly what I meant, when I said, "mark my words". Please mark it with permanent marker also...

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 10:35 AM | Report abuse

But then on the other hand, when a player states, "I'm having fun", and someone translates that to mean, "I'm unhappy" they need to get called on it. Drunk or not..

Gregmarino...

Chill! How many times have we seen players say one thing to the media and do another thing on the sidelines or in the locker room. They were making an inference. Take a look at the Gregg Williams situation. So much was said to the media, but we had no idea what was actually said behind the doors of Daniel Snyder's office. Good grief. You trust everything someone says to the media? You have a camera or a microphone in you face, you're not always thinking "Let me tell this media schlub what I'm really thinking." There's politics and diplomacy and shrewdness in this business. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of the NFL, but seriously, get off of it. Let it go. Sometimes I think people are only here to jump on other's ideas and comments... Sort of like hyenas and scavenger birds flocking toward carrion.

Off my soap box.

The Dorf will Abide from here on out.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 10:39 AM | Report abuse

If we had only kept Clemons!

The dreaded Eagles got him! We are in for it now, we all know how well they do with free agent D-Linemen!

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

What if we had kept Walt Harris!!??!?!?!?

or PIECRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 10:41 AM | Report abuse

What if the Skins kept Ryan Clark!!!!!!!!!!!!?????!?!?!?!

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Sometimes I think people are only here to jump on other's ideas and comments... Sort of like hyenas and scavenger birds flocking toward carrion.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 10:39 AM

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! :)

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Not sure exactly how Clemmons landed with the Eagles, but he was with the Raiders last year. I doubt he was traded, so assuming he was a Free Agent, we could have made a run for him this year if we really wanted him. He's an ILB and we don't really need his services.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 10:43 AM | Report abuse

Sorry dorf, I shouldn't have taken the man at his word...

Here is how I'll translate part of what Chris Cooley said:

"I feel really confident in that, and this offense, from what I understand, is going to give me a lot of opportunity to do that."

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT COOLEY WANTS TO BE TRADED!!! WHAT THE BLEEP SNYDER YOU POS!!

Sorry, Alexander said he was having fun, and was happy. I'm going to go with, "he was having fun, and was happy"

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 10:45 AM | Report abuse

greg(b), Antonio Pierce actually started for the Skins. I know that Clemons got rotated in situationally. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall that Espy actually played in a regular season game.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 10:18 AM

He played in 1, that makes him probowl bound...

Chill! How many times have we seen players say one thing to the media and do another thing on the sidelines or in the locker room.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 10:39 AM

True, but it doesn't automatically indicate that he meant the exact opposite of what he said.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 18, 2008 10:46 AM | Report abuse

What if we had kept Walt Harris!!??!?!?!?

or PIECRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 10:41 AM

What if the Skins kept Ryan Clark!!!!!!!!!!!!?????!?!?!?!

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 10:42 AM

Or Ramsey, or Bloyd, or Archuleta? What the F is this team doing? (Sarcastic post terminated)

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 18, 2008 10:48 AM | Report abuse

I love this front office. We do no wrong. Antonio Pierce was a waste of space, he had to go. Chris Clemons got hurt, of course he had to be cut. Brandon Lloyd was a great trade at the time, just didn't work out so well. Hindsight is always 20/20. Archuleta was awesome in St. Louis. Why would we think he wouldn't work out here? Clearly Espy has not shot of ever becoming a true player...we cut him. Obviously he's an awful player. And once again, there is no doubt in my mind that whichever receiver falls to us at the 21st pick will become the next Randy Moss. Even if we don't select one there, we can at least get Jordy Nelson in the 2nd round. He's fail-safe. Either of those 2 will for sure put us over the top next year. No doubt in my mind.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Sarcasm is fun!

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 10:50 AM | Report abuse

Please mark it with permanent marker also...

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 10:35 AM

OK. Done. Unfortunately, the only permanent marker I have is this fat black sharpie (which I keep around for sniffing purposes) ... so now your marked words are blacked out ... and I have a permanent black mark on my screen ... which I now call the greg(b) mark ... what were the words that I marked again? My RI hamsterish attention span also includes a special feature: the short term memory of a hamster.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

"I feel really confident in that, and this offense, from what I understand, is going to give me a lot of opportunity to do that."

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT COOLEY WANTS TO BE TRADED!!! WHAT THE BLEEP SNYDER YOU POS!!

Greg,

Thanks for this. Great start to my day. I am with you 100%. Keep keeping it real.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 18, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

Let's get off the ledge about the Clemons/Espy thing. Chris Clemons was a situational pass rusher here and was inactive half the time. Off the top of my head, the guy isn't more than 240 lbs and is more a linebacker than DE. Some may be thinking of his brother Nic, a huge 290 pound end who didn't do much either.

As for Espy, I can't even remember the guy playing in the regular season. He did some things in the preseason, but so did Jimmy Farris. Where's the outcry for his return?

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 10:59 AM | Report abuse

I think Cooley wants to be traded because of all the heat placed on him for not signing Barno's DVD.

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:01 AM | Report abuse

Does anyone have the link where I can download the "Player Speak Translation Program", so that I don't run into this problem in the future?

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 11:03 AM | Report abuse

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/story/2008/3/18/103156/364

Could this be the WR we've been looking for? The Redskins waived 25-year-old Ole Miss product Mike Espy. Espy was well considered by the Gibbs regime in Washington, but ruptured his patellar tendon in his right knee in training camp last summer, ending his season before it even began. According to reports at Rotoworld, Al Saunders might be interested in giving him a look, if he's healthy, in camp this season. Low risk, potential upside, sounds like a good move to me.

------------
From a Rams web site. If Saunders does not pick him up, maybe the Skins knew something.

How are things working out for our two defensive FA that everyone had going to the Jags?

But what does our FO know. They should read this blog site to learn what moves to make.

OK, I'm done.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 18, 2008 11:03 AM | Report abuse

WE WANT FARRIS WE WANT FARRIS!

(as the stadium shakes)

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Gregmarino, here's my take:

I had an old boss that promised me a better job next year. I have worked really hard to get to where I am in my career. The old boss leaves. I am low man on the totem pole and don't have much pull as far as office politics go. A new boss comes in and I don't get that job I was promised and am told I'll be doing the same thing next year. Do I:

a) Throw a hissy fit and get all my co-workers wound up and call the local newspaper to cry foul...

or

b) Smile. Say I'm having fun. Keep working hard and try to impress the new boss.

That's how I see it. Its up for debate. I said my peace and will move on.

The Dorf Abides.

(

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Sometimes I think people are only here to jump on other's ideas and comments...

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 10:39 AM

Not me. I'm only here to agree with everyone else. Except in this one case, of course.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Or, Alexander is having fun, like he said he was.

Which ever.....

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 11:08 AM | Report abuse

and yeah, keep keeping it real. If you find that program, let me know.

Is it me, or is the blog really limping these past few days. Cindy? Help?

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 11:10 AM | Report abuse

WE WANT FARRIS WE WANT FARRIS!

(as the stadium shakes)

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:03 AM

There it is...

Can we start a chant for Skip Hicks, too?

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 11:11 AM | Report abuse

okay... you've never been asked how you are doing and given a false answer like "oh, I'm great" when really you want to steer your car into a gosh-darn bridge embankment.

He could be happy like he said he is. He could be upset and just saying he's happy. People don't lie? Either way, you don't know. I feel sorry for you if you take everybody at their word. Or maybe I feel sorry for myself for being so cynical. Whatever.

I'm trying to abide, but you keep wanting to get the last word on this.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 11:14 AM | Report abuse

WE WANT FARRIS WE WANT FARRIS!

(as the stadium shakes)

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:03 AM

There it is...

Can we start a chant for Skip Hicks, too?

Wasn't he on the cover of SI one month?

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Who here declined renewal of their season tickets?

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 18, 2008 11:16 AM | Report abuse

John Clayton is listing Brandon Chillar, Rosevelt Colvin, Grady Jackson, Daunte Culpepper, and Kris Wilson as the best available remaining free agents on ESPN.com. Anyone interested in the 'Skins making a run and Chillar or Colvin?

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Why haven't the Redskins traded for Robert McCune yet?

Also, we need an update on the battle for the starting running back spot, between Manuel White, Nemo Broughton, and Portis? Who has the edge?

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Who here declined renewal of their season tickets?

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 18, 2008 11:16 AM

No one here is as much of a fair weather as you are.

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Trying to track down on the intergoogles about the new Mrs. Santana Moss, the Skins website says he has a son, Santana, Jr. and a daughter, Saniya.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 11:25 AM | Report abuse

Sports Guru,

After the verbal tongue-lashing you took from the residents of this blog, I thought you'd lick your wounds and go home. To quote the pilgrim from the Guinness commercial, "You've got some brass, son".

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 11:25 AM | Report abuse

I let my season tickets go after they stabbed LaVar in the back.

From that point on, I have given no money to The Danny.

56 was the man, and The Danny screwed him.

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 18, 2008 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Sports Guru,

After the verbal tongue-lashing you took from the residents of this blog, I thought you'd lick your wounds and go home. To quote the pilgrim from the Guinness commercial, "You've got some brass, son".

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 11:26 AM | Report abuse

The 'Skins see the guy every day. You've only seen him in a few exhibition games. Why do you think the 'Skins cut him if he's going to be great? Either you know something they don't, or they know something you don't.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 10:07 AM

Last words I'll say on the Espy situation (maybe). Gibbs got to see him every day. Gibbs thought highly enough of him to keep him on IR even though the guy was undrafted and had played a total of 1 snap for the team in a regular season game. Will Whitaker was thought of as a very good, developing backup with a potential to start someday. He got a high ankle sprain during preseason and got cut. Something tells me Espy was more than your average undrafted FA on the training squad. And I definitely trust Gibbs more than I trust Vinny, Snyder, or even Zorn. That's my take.

I know everyone here loves the skins and wants to protect and defend the front office, because that's all we have to work with. It's natural. But it gets slightly annoying when everyone completely shoots down any criticism of the moves we make/don't make. This front office has been wrong before. Believe it or not, they will be wrong again. It's inevitable. I'm not saying I hate the FO, I actually have been very pleased since Gibbs 2.0 took over. That doesn't mean I think they can do no wrong. Sometimes, criticism is warranted.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 11:27 AM | Report abuse

his daugters name is santanette

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Guru--

LaVar was a dam fool who bit the hand that fed him. The Redskins gave up Champ Bailey to make LaVar the face of the franchise, and then he turned around and sued them while his agent got barred for incompetence. He never could play on a team -- not the Redskins or the Giants -- because it was always about him.

It figures that you can't work this out for yourself. This is your idea of "the man"?

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 11:33 AM | Report abuse

his daughter's name is santanette

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:27 AM

I kind of like Santansantanadanna ("A Mr. Richard Feder, from Ft. Lee, New Jersey, writes ....")

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 11:33 AM | Report abuse

This is your idea of "the man"?

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 11:33 AM

I thought "The Man" was the government, or maybe just the cops.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 11:35 AM | Report abuse

I let my season tickets go after they stabbed LaVar in the back.

From that point on, I have given no money to The Danny.

56 was the man, and The Danny screwed him.

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 18, 2008 11:26 AM

Yet you're still hanging around the Redskins chatrooms espousing verbal garbage and secretly wearing redskins cheerleader attire.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 18, 2008 11:38 AM | Report abuse

psp, gibbs also "saw something" in archuletta, brunell, and brandon lloyd. I don't have unconditional trust gibbs judge of talent. sorry.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 11:38 AM | Report abuse

This is a cool mock draft site. It lists 204 mock drafts and their picks for us:

http://hailredskins.com/MockDraft.htm

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 18, 2008 11:41 AM | Report abuse

just to add to it, gibbs also saw "nothing" in antonio pierce, walt harris, ryan clark, chris clemmons, etc.

wait, were those gibbss decisions or greg williams' decisions? man, we really should have not stabbed williams in the back. if only danny had listened to sports_guru. think of all the talent we could piss away in the coming years!

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 11:42 AM | Report abuse

Santana has been a father for awhile...not sure if the woman he just married is their mother but I'm thinking yes since they have been together for awhile.

Posted by: Lisa | March 18, 2008 11:45 AM | Report abuse

SETH, Please stop, you're going to set Sams3 off on another Eagles rant...

psps - As I recall, Whittaker was a lot older than Espy and Espy's injury was pretty bad. Maybe after evaluation, the recovery was not going well and he was no longer an asset? Again just speculation.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 11:45 AM | Report abuse

If someone snuck 6 million dollars out of your contract, you would complain too.

LaVar trusted The Danny. Look what that got him. Are all of you willing to trust The Danny as well?

When you root for a team, you are rooting for its owner. The owner owns the team. It is his product. I enjoyed the Jack Kent Cooke product. That is the product that won the Super Bowls. That is the product that created the legend and tradition.

The Danny product has two playoff victories, and a history of treating the players, and the fans poorly.

The Washington Cookes are the tradition. The Washington Snyders are the imitation.

We know the players get the shaft, but lets take a quick look at how The Danny treats the fans.

Here are just a few off the top of my head...

1. The Danny charges $8 for a hot dog, $10 for a beer, etc.

2. The Danny tried to ban walking from non-redskin lots in an attempt to force fans to take HIS shuttles, or park in HIS lots...at a premium.

3. The Danny has raised the prices to park in stadium and "cash" lots to rediculous amounts.

4. The Danny guts the stadium and allows people to sit in the building, but have to watch the game on TVs in order to substitute for their blocked views.

5. The Danny screws season ticket holders by refusing to allow anyone to move into the lower bowl. Instead, he uses those seats, as they open up, to package with his seating upgrades like the Touchdown Club.

6. The only way you can move from the upper bowl to the lower bowl, without taking a premium package, is to take an obstructed view seat. Once you accept the obstructed view seat, you may never move into a better seat. If you give up your obstructed view seat, you must move back to the upper bowl.

7. The Danny has not retired any numbers of players that have played in his era. Such as Darrell Green or Sean Taylor.

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 18, 2008 11:47 AM | Report abuse

psp, gibbs also "saw something" in archuletta, brunell, and brandon lloyd. I don't have unconditional trust gibbs judge of talent. sorry.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 11:38 AM

that's true. i'm not saying gibbs is 100% infallible. but that doesn't mean i distrust gibbs, nor does it make me trust vinny/snyder/zorn more.

all i'm doing is questioning the move. i'm not saying it will end up good or bad either way. i'm just wondering why, at this point, have they decided to cut a guy they were so high on before? is there any specific reason? what was so pressing that he needed to be cut now?

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 11:47 AM | Report abuse

Is Sports Guru serious?

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 11:50 AM | Report abuse

Gibbs thought highly enough of him to keep him on IR

No, that pesky torn patella tendon took care of that.

You can't release a player that has an injury such as Espy did. So we'll never know if he would have made the team or not.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 11:51 AM | Report abuse

Good to see LaVar has officially been added to the mix.

His body betrayed him long before the Danny did. And anyone who knows the hacks that are his agents knows that THEY are the ones that screwed up that whole contract thing. Besides, who other than LaVar ever complained that Danny didn't pay him ENOUGH?

Oh, and off all the things we can blame on Snyder (and I doubt anyone here hates him more than I do), the LaVar thing isn't one. He'd still be here if he fit in with Williams' scheme.

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 11:53 AM | Report abuse

SETH, Please stop, you're going to set Sams3 off on another Eagles rant...

psps - As I recall, Whittaker was a lot older than Espy and Espy's injury was pretty bad. Maybe after evaluation, the recovery was not going well and he was no longer an asset? Again just speculation.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 11:45 AM

It may be too late... I'm reloading.

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:53 AM | Report abuse

sams3, i have found that it is never a good sign when people begin speaking of themselves in the third person. i am now afraid that you will turn into your demented alter-ego, poolman!

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 11:55 AM | Report abuse

No, that pesky torn patella tendon took care of that.

You can't release a player that has an injury such as Espy did. So we'll never know if he would have made the team or not.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 11:51 AM

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. He wasn't on the opening-day regular season roster, so nothing was guaranteed. I could be wrong on that point though.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Good to see LaVar has officially been added to the mix.

His body betrayed him long before the Danny did. And anyone who knows the hacks that are his agents knows that THEY are the ones that screwed up that whole contract thing. Besides, who other than LaVar ever complained that Danny didn't pay him ENOUGH?

Oh, and off all the things we can blame on Snyder (and I doubt anyone here hates him more than I do), the LaVar thing isn't one. He'd still be here if he fit in with Williams' scheme.

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 11:53 AM

You are on point today Brownwood. Although he may have betrayed his body as opposed to the other way around. He looked like a bag of donuts.

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Guru -

I'm actually with you as far as the treatment of the fans. But he'll keep doing it as long as he's making money. It's his right as the owner.

As far as mistreating players, he really came through with the Sean Taylor Tragedy and he is always there when his players need him, i.e. flying the Todd up to Boston for the birth of his son.

And the Redsikins policy is not to retire numbers, it has always been that way. The only number the Redskins have officially retired is 33. While not retired, I don't recall him giving out #28, 44, 81, 7, 42, 9, 70 etc... 21 remains to be seen. #49 was given out accidentaly to Leonard Stephens one season and Dan apologized sincerely for the mistake.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 11:59 AM | Report abuse

psp, you said Gibbs thought enough of him to keep him on ir.

I'm saying it had NOTHING to do with Gibbs, and EVERYTHING to do with being injured. Gibbs could not have released him with the injury that he sustained.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Sports Guru,

I'll say that I agree that Snyder has been jerking fans around since he bought the team. However, pinning the LaVar mess on him is laughable. The owner who pays too much stiffs a franchise player out of a measly $6 million? I doubt that. Brandon Lloyd being a bust doesn't hurt nearly as much if he only costs $6 million. That money means nothing to Snyder. LaVar's agents screwed that up and I'm pretty sure they STILL haven't been reinstated for that gaffe by the NFLPA.

As for retiring numbers: are you really a fan? Because real fans know the Skins don't retire numbers (only Sammy Baugh's #33 is offically retired), they only take them out of circulation. As good as Taylor was, he only played 4 years here; you don't just retire a guy's number for 2 Pro Bowls. By that criteria, LaVar's number should be retired along with Stephen Davis. I haven't seen any one wear 28 since Darrell retired, or 21 since Taylor passed. Have you?

I hate Snyder as much as anyone. But I root for the colors, as most do here. Seeing the burgundy helmet glisten in the summer sun of training camp; I'm not sure there's a more beautiful sight for me.

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 12:03 PM | Report abuse

Sports guru,

there is no EVIDENCE anyone snuck money out of Lavars contract.

You CAN still root for a team and NOT root for the owner. If you don't like snyder, and it keeps you from being a redskin fan, then you aren't a true fan of the TEAM. the team is greater than any one man, even the owner. Snyder is going to own this team for a very very long time. If you hate him that much, then i suggest you find a new team.

Now on to your other points:

1) Snyder is not alone in charging so much money for food and beer. I go to carolina hurricanes hockey games all the time and their prices are comparable.

2) The shuttle thing was kinda gay, but so what? the metro was still always an option.

3) parking is rediculous but what else would you expect for the worlds most popular franchise.

4) people have the option to buy those seats or not. its their choice. atleast he gives people the option to come to the games.

5) so what

6)so what. if you dont want one of those seats, then stay up top.

7)neither green nor taylor are worthy of having their numbers retired. taylor especially, is an emotional reaction. his career was not long enough to warrant such an action.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 12:05 PM | Report abuse

I'm saying it had NOTHING to do with Gibbs, and EVERYTHING to do with being injured. Gibbs could not have released him with the injury that he sustained.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 11:59 AM

I'm still pretty sure this isn't true. He wasn't on the 53-man protected roster when the season started, so the team had no guaranteed obligation to keep him. They had one of three options: place him on IR, place him on PUP (which would allow them to choose whether to place him back on the roster, designate him on IR, or release him), or they could have just plain waived him. Gibbs took the safe route and placed him on IR.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 12:10 PM | Report abuse

My take on the Espy cut is, if we had an INSIDER to update these blogs we may know why he was cut- not recovering, Zorn didn't want him, whatever.

Everything else is just speculation. JLaC, TheCindy any help here??

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 18, 2008 12:14 PM | Report abuse

What's up with all the slurp love fest today? I'm reading a lot of "Oh, that's funny so-and-so. Let me make a funny about him too", comments. I'm not one to throw names out there, but you know who you are. (Note: If you just read the previous 2 or 3 sentences and you feel your face tightening, then it's probably you) I believe that someone posted that sometimes people only post material regarding other post to only antagonize. I couldn't agree more.
OK, who cares if someone made a complete fool of themselves when they posted whatever they did. It's a public forum, it's expected. It's kind of like riding the bus in that way. I swear some of you react to every damn post like it's effecting your life emotionally, physically, financially, or (For some of you) spritually. If you feel most post are BS laced, scroll down, see who posted the assumed BS, and then skip the ENTIRE post. It will change your urge to bicker like schoolgirls (No offense) to L.I.G. like grown men!

Posted by: RedDMV | March 18, 2008 12:15 PM | Report abuse

7)neither green nor taylor are worthy of having their numbers retired. taylor especially, is an emotional reaction. his career was not long enough to warrant such an action.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 12:05 PM

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

Darrell Green isn't worthy to have his jersey retired? 20 years and 54 picks isn't enough to get your jersey retired (or out of circulation), but it's enough to get you a first ballot Hall-of-Fame pass? The man ran a 4.2 40 into his 40s! You couldn't possibly mean that...

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 18, 2008 12:15 PM | Report abuse

psp, I have fire-walls here at work that prevent me from looking it up, but you cannot release a player who is injured, SANS an injury settlement with said player.

Espy got injured. He was placed on IR. It had nothing to do with how much Gibbs thought of him.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 12:23 PM | Report abuse

The Redskins do not retire jersey's but if they did Green's would definatley be retired.

Kerzon,

I agree maybe if we had an insider who actually worked, and could get inside information then we would know why he was released. But I do not even think he was worthy of an explenation he never did anything here.

Posted by: kmdp4 | March 18, 2008 12:26 PM | Report abuse

+++sports_guru, your comments in the first half of your post are too sensational and rediculous to even reply to. suffice to say, i disagree with every single one of them.++++

Not to go all Rajah of Rhetoric on you, but technically "I disagree with every single one of them" IS a reply. Just sayin'

Posted by: corkczar | March 18, 2008 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Fellow hamsters,

I've been following RI for at least a year now and to my knowledge, Jasno hasn't had a real vacation yet. By real, I mean one where he didn't post or work the phones.

Now is his chance.

I'm going through withdrawal too, but let's be patient.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 12:31 PM | Report abuse

gregmarino,

injury settlements are very common in the nfl. it's not a difficult thing to negotiate. unless espy was holding the redskins hostage, gibbs was the one who decided to place him on IR.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 12:39 PM | Report abuse

... i have found that it is never a good sign when people begin speaking of themselves in the third person. ...

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 11:55 AM

dcsween has found that too.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 12:40 PM | Report abuse

psp, dude, until Gibbs himself comes out and say's, "I put him on IR, because he had so much potential", I'm going with what is reality, which you seem to struggle with.

Reality is, he's not that good a player.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Espy was put on the IR on August 21st. Over the next 9 days, the Skins cut 6 receivers. If Espy hadn't been protected by being put on the IR, nothing says he wouldn't have been among those guys cut by the Sept. 1 roster date.

As of yesterday morning, the Skins had 11 receivers on the roster (including one of the guys cut before Sept. 1st -- Burl Toler, who happens to be 6'2" compared to Espy's less than 6' height).

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 12:48 PM | Report abuse

Oops. Yesterday, they had 9 receivers, not 11. Today, they have 7.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Also, yesterday the Vikings signed Skins' 5th round draft pick from last year, Dallas Sartz.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 12:52 PM | Report abuse

'It's going to be wide open this year'...

Translation:

'False starts, botched protections, quarterback hits, general confusion like the Spurrier era.'

Good times. I have seen this before. Whatever the last coach did must have been wrong. I am making an 'unexcited face' at this time.

-AMTTS

Posted by: ArtMonkToTheSticks | March 18, 2008 12:52 PM | Report abuse

OK, i had a really long post justifying my comments about green not "worthy" of having his jersey retired, but i have noticed that only about half my posts show up here and i forgot to copy the comment incase it didnt work. GRRRR!

Lets be realistic: There are 29 numbers (20-49) reserved for DBs, RBs, and TEs. Typically, about 15 of those will be used by a team at any given time (9/10DBs, 3/4RBs, and 2 TEs). That leaves about 14 "available" numbers.

Lets speculate that a team decides to retire one DB and one RB every decade. Lets say that during those 60 years, you had 2 really great TEs. In 60 years, you're going to be out of extra numbers. In 70 years, youre not going to have numbers for players on your active roster and practice squad.

I think people are way to "eager" to retire numbers. Retiring numbers should be reserved for players who more or less single-handedly carried their franchises for their entire careers. Players who could always be relied on to make big plays in the big games. Players who were the face of their franchise, and among the best at their position in the NFL throughout most of their career. There are very few players who are not quarterbacks who fit this criteria.

He was undoubtadly be the best REDSKINS db of all time... but can you honestly say hes among the top 3-5 DBs to EVER play the game? If not, I don't think he deserves to have his jersey retired. I simply don't think its PRACTICAL to retire his number. I think it cheapens the honor of having a number retired if a team starts retiring the numbers of players who were "only" great.

I hope that explains my position a bit better.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Did I just see the Rajah of Rhetoric up here?

Wonder if it's uncomfortable when he and the Blue Rajah both show up at a bar.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 1:06 PM | Report abuse

'It's going to be wide open this year'...

Translation:

'False starts, botched protections, quarterback hits, general confusion like the Spurrier era.'

Good times. I have seen this before. Whatever the last coach did must have been wrong. I am making an 'unexcited face' at this time.

-AMTTS

Posted by: ArtMonkToTheSticks | March 18, 2008 12:52 PM

I think you mean like the Gibbs era, do not try to say that things ran smoothly on offense for the last 4yrs. Atleast there will only be one voice on playcalling not two, which was convenient by the way, neither one of them had to take blame.

Posted by: kmdp4 | March 18, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

I'm guessing it is (except that Rajah Bar).

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

He was undoubtadly be the best REDSKINS db of all time... but can you honestly say hes among the top 3-5 DBs to EVER play the game?
Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 12:57 PM

Yes.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 1:09 PM | Report abuse

Those two Rajahs at the Rajah Bar? Irony and cutlery flying all over the place ... fuggedaboudit.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 1:10 PM | Report abuse

They meet at the bar to watch their favorite basketball player -- Raja Bell.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 1:11 PM | Report abuse

'False starts, botched protections, quarterback hits, general confusion like the Spurrier era.'

How about if we let the team actually play a game before jumping to conclusions??

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 1:11 PM | Report abuse

okay gregmarino, you're right, i have lost a grip on reality. every move made by this FO is absolutely genius. i said it before on an earlier post, our FO can do no wrong. no player that's ever been cut was any good. seriously. i can't think of one good player who was EVER cut that has EVER done anything positive in this league. not one. can anybody think of someone who's been cut before who ended up being a good player? nah, i can't either.

i trust vinny with all my heart. i really do. if there's one guy in the history of this league that knows players and has a history to prove it, it's vinny cerrato.

thank god our prospective draft pick "big" WR will have 4.4 speed, a 40 inch vertical, hands as soft as marshmallows, and be able to read the game like jerry rice. there's no way anybody that we didn't sign or decide to keep is better than our prospective "big" WR. it's a foregone conclusion; prospective "big" WR will be a stud, prospective "big" WR will be a pro-bowler, and prospective "big" WR will carry us to the super bowl. not to mention he is the final piece to the jason campbell puzzle. because we all know that there is no way campbell becomes a true nfl qb without prospective "big" WR. his receivers are too short for him to be successful.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

What?

I'll see your Rajah of Rhetoric and raise you a Rajah of Raljon and a Rhetoric of Raljon.

Okay, the Blue Rajah wins handsdown!

Nate, hope your liver has fully recovered from that golf outing.

Anyone sink a 25-footer?

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

etrod, from up above, I don't recall having heard about any apology (sincere or otherwise) from Snyder/the team to Bobby Mitchell after his jersey was given to that scrub in training camp and he quit the team in disgust after all 40 years.

In fact, I have long cited this as one of my top grievances against Snyder, that he let this happen to a good and decent man, a historic figure in franchise history, a Hall of Famer, a man who had given his adult life to serving this franchise.

Are you saying Snyder buried the hatchet with the original B.Mitch? Can you point to a news item which might help verify this? If so, I may have to slightly revise my opinion on Snyder. Slightly.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

He was undoubtadly be the best REDSKINS db of all time... but can you honestly say hes among the top 3-5 DBs to EVER play the game?

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 12:57 PM

Yes.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 01:09 PM

etrod, stop baiting LEMASTER

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 1:20 PM | Report abuse

He was undoubtadly be the best REDSKINS db of all time... but can you honestly say hes among the top 3-5 DBs to EVER play the game?

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 12:57 PM

Yes.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 01:09 PM


I 2nd that motion!

Posted by: 4thFloor | March 18, 2008 1:23 PM | Report abuse

psp, couple things:

Never said the FO can do no wrong. Those words never left my lips, nor my keyboard.

You're basically hitching your wagon to Mike Espy. Mike Espy, who has the same career stats as I do.

The first catch the rookie reciever the Redskins draft, will make Espy a moot point.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse

What if Rog from "What's Happenin'" showed up?

That would be ever hilariouser!

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 1:25 PM | Report abuse

I agree with whoever stated that jersey numbers should not be sacrosanct, and that unless you're talking about an all-time-great (maybe with induction to the sport's Hall of Fame, however imperfect, as a dividing line), it's hard to justify pulling a number out of circulation.

That's why the Skins' policy of unofficial jersey retirement is so confusing... a slew of numbers are out of circulation, but only one of them is officially retired. Why not just hang them up in the stadium? What are you waiting for? It makes very little sense.

That goofy DC "wall of fame" thing at RFK was fine with me, just a big old list of prominent figures in local sports -- not all-timers, not 'best evers', but local heroes and bigwigs.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 1:32 PM | Report abuse

Nate, I looked for an article on the supposed apology, but I suck at the intergoogles. I swear I read that here in the post but I can only search back to 2006. Perhaps Cyn City can assist.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 1:36 PM | Report abuse

19 defensive backs have been elected into the club that meets at that funny-looking building in Canton. I copied the list below from the HOF website.

Is DG in the top 3-5 among these 19? How about if you add Deion Sanders, who will undoubtedly join them when he's eligible.

I won't claim to know enough about all these dudes to say where DG stands among them. I know I don't expect to see another DB have a career like his. But it's something to chew on...


Herb Adderley (CB) 1961-1972
Lem Barney (CB) 1967-1977
Mel Blount (CB) 1970-1983
Willie Brown (CB) 1963-1978
Jack Christiansen (S) 1951-1958
Darrell Green (CB) 1983-2002
Mike Haynes (CB) 1976-1989
Ken Houston (S) 1967-1980
Jimmy Johnson (CB) 1961-1976
Paul Krause (S) 1964-1979
Dick (Night Train) Lane (CB) 1952-1965
Yale Lary (S) 1952-1953, 1956-1964
Ronnie Lott (CB-S) 1981-1994
Mel Renfro (S-CB) 1964-1977
Emmitt Thomas (CB) 1966-1978
Emlen Tunnell (S) 1948-1961
Roger Wehrli 1969-1982
Larry Wilson (S) 1960-1972
Willie Wood (S) 1960-1971

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 1:39 PM | Report abuse

I don't understand why 7 is retired. Theismann was a good QB but nowhere close to Sonny or Sammy. He's generally not brought up when discussing legendary NFL QB's.

Posted by: Original_etrod | March 18, 2008 1:40 PM | Report abuse

gregmarino,

actually, i QUESTIONED the mike espy release. just like i questioned the release of chris clemons, the letting go of antonio pierce, and the trade of laverneus coles. some of them proved to be good moves, others maybe not. i originally said that i'm not judging his release either way, only questioning the reasons behind it. i said the gibbs thought highly of him and it's strange that they decided to cut him before any substantial training has begun. you're the one trying to turn my words into espy being some gift from god.

and if a receiver gets drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, then he better become a substantial fixture on this team, or the draft pick will have been for naught. if he turns into another gardner, rod, or jacobs, taylor, then we have done nothing to make ourselves better, even hurt ourselves by using a draft pick when similar production could be found on the FA market, or in the case of espy, possibly even on our roster. honestly, i hope i eat my words. i just really don't like the idea of drafting a receiver high. i'd rather take my chances with solid receivers and use the draft pick to upgrade any other position on the field.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 1:41 PM | Report abuse

etrod, not calling you out, I just have learned not to trust things I read on the internet. Learned the hard way.

I posted a link up here to this piece attributed to John Cleese, and then to my horror found out it was a fake, and a well-known old fake at that. Talk about egg on my face! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 1:42 PM | Report abuse

psp, you win.

Logic prevents me from continuing this discussion.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Most of the Mock Drafts that someone linked to above, show us picking a DE or WR with the first pick.

Based on what I've heard, I think Vinny will go for a DT or maybe a Corner in the first round.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 2:09 PM | Report abuse

I can't beleive that I have not read the words "kool-aide" or "Danbot" in at least a week.......don't tell me that these were only buzz words.....say it ain't so!

Posted by: dlhaze1 | March 18, 2008 2:11 PM | Report abuse

my love is a heart breakerrrrrrrrr

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 2:14 PM | Report abuse

gregmarino has been bearing his fangs all day... time to get out and get some fresh air brother.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 2:20 PM | Report abuse

The 49ers cut Trent Dilfer......wasn't there some speculation that Zorn would want to bring him in as a backup? Will he still want to do this with Collins re-signed? I GUESS I'd rather see Dilfer for the vet min than a 6th or 7th round pick wasted on another QB who would be lucky to stay on the practice squad.....

Posted by: dlhaze1 | March 18, 2008 2:24 PM | Report abuse

dlhaze1,
I agree that might be a better move.

Keep Dilfer for a year or two, than draft a young'un.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 2:29 PM | Report abuse

I GUESS I'd rather see Dilfer for the vet min than a 6th or 7th round pick wasted on another QB who would be lucky to stay on the practice squad.....

Posted by: dlhaze1 | March 18, 2008 02:24 PM

Well, everyone would rather see that. But the point in taking a 6th or 7th rounder is to get a guy with some upside potential who, after two years, can step in for Collins. Think Sage Rosenfels. Doesn't always work, but I'd rather take a shot at one of these project guys than to have another version of Mark Brunell hanging around. Anyway, these late picks are crap shoots at any position, so why not a QB?

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 2:32 PM | Report abuse

Part of the plan is replacing the siding facing the alley ... and I spent yesterday getting that permit yesterday from the DC gov't ... at the "Homeowners' Center" ... and it took me FOUR hours (the life was sucked from my body and I had no energy to even check the blog yesterday).

Posted by: dcsween | March 15, 2008 10:47 AM


For me it was more like four months of red tape and waiting. I even had to hire an engineer to draw up plans, just to get approval from the city to put three walls on an attached carport that already had a previously approved, engineered truss roof. It was insane. And I don't even live in Olympia proper, where the bureaucracy is really bad.

Posted by: freakzilla | March 18, 2008 2:36 PM | Report abuse

my love is a heart breakerrrrrrrrr

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 02:14 PM


In case you're wondering if anyone got that, yes. :)

Posted by: freakzilla | March 18, 2008 2:38 PM | Report abuse

Anyway, these late picks are crap shoots at any position, so why not a QB?

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 02:32 PM

Agree on the whole crap shoot thing.....but if they find someone like Sage, they need to hold onto him. I think the odds of getting a steal in the late rounds are bettered when you look to fill depth at an "obscure" spot like a special teams ace, or punter/kicker, or especially someone like Lo Alexander; someone who can play offense or defense.......of course there is always the two in a miliion 6th rounders like Tom Brady and Terrel Davis, so who knows. What I do know is if Campbell and Collins both go down (very plausible), then I would not want BBPalmer or Hollenbach types running the offense.

Posted by: dlhaze1 | March 18, 2008 2:41 PM | Report abuse

If Espy never hurt his knee during the preseason, he would've made the roster and taken, at least, Brandon Lloyd's spot. He was a young guy that was very good from what I saw. in the 2006 preseason for example he made a beautiful diving catch from Todd Collins. I know that this one play is just ONE play. Brandon Lloyd was given the same kind of backing after not producing huge numbers but catching a few nice balls in San fran. But the next year, Espy made some great plays, plus he was bigger, in size, than Santana. He already had 2 years in the offense, and was an undrafted dude wanting to prove something. Thats all I was saying when stating he would be great somewhere else. He has talent, but I guess they saw some problem with his rehab or something...I just would've liked to see him get another shot. Carlos Rogers messed up his knee and he is still in their plans, even though he has hands made of stone. Go figure.

Posted by: rhyde | March 18, 2008 2:42 PM | Report abuse

Can the Wapo at least get rid of the Hackett picture. I'm tired of looking at him scoring on us. Still the enemy.

Posted by: cdubb | March 18, 2008 2:42 PM | Report abuse

freakzilla,

I was.

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 2:44 PM | Report abuse

Maybe I should not post anymore aticles like the one below. The Skins seem to be on all media cross sights. Could it be that the Skins (Zorn) did not think he was worth more? ARGH!!

Sorry, Adam, could not help it.


http://mvn.com/nfl-bills/2008/03/18/final-thoughts-on-hackett-and-johnson/

.J. Hackett signed with Carolina Monday, effectively depleting the free agent market at wide receiver. Buffalo wanted to add a tall wide receiver, going after former Arizona receiver Bryant Johnson. However, Johnson couldn't come to terms with the Bills and signed a one-year deal with the 49ers.

Chris Brown reports that Johnson's contract is worth just $2 million, a price the Bills easily could've paid. Buffalo likely just wanted to have him locked down long term, since Johnson is still 27. One-year deals don't help the young Bills.

As for Hackett, Buffalo never even brought him into visit. The 26-year-old is 6-2 and has showed promise when he hasn't been injured. The injury history and his primarily role as a slot receiver probably turned the Bills away.

ESPN reports that Carolina signed him to a two-year, $3.5 million deal, which is chump change compared to the six-year, $55 million contract Javon Walker received from Oakland.

What I enjoyed from the article was a line about his other visits.

Hackett spent last week visiting Washington -- he had a minimum salary offer from the Redskins -- Tampa Bay and Carolina, where he met with Hurney, coach John Fox and talked on the phone with Smith.

A minimum offer from Washington? It's amazing what kind of cap jail they've put themselves in with all these back loaded and bonus-heavy contracts. Let's just hope we never face a cap-less season, because Washington will destroy free agency.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 18, 2008 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Just because ESPY got released doesn't mean he won't end up on the team. ask Mr. Stoutmire.

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Most of the Mock Drafts that someone linked to above, show us picking a DE or WR with the first pick.

Based on what I've heard, I think Vinny will go for a DT or maybe a Corner in the first round.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 02:09 PM

Checking out Askew's size, I was surprised that the Skins only have six DTs compared to seven DEs ... and I also think CB in the first round is a better move, i.e., to be the nickel while Carlos recovers and to replace Springs (eventually).

I've been thinking that the positions of need for eventual replacement due to age are the ones held by Springs, Daniels, and Kendall.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 2:50 PM | Report abuse

Sams3,

Right on, I didn't even think of that. I hope they do because when one of our WRs gets hurt, he would be an admirable replacement, i just know it!

Posted by: rhyde | March 18, 2008 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Scampbell,

Here is a follow-up article on Rick Gosselin's article I posted above.

http://www.hogshaven.com/story/2008/3/18/134350/066

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 18, 2008 2:55 PM | Report abuse

[In 2007] the New York Giants were sitting out the spending spree. To borrow a Jerry Jones term, the Giants were "keeping their powder dry." [And then they won the Super Bowl yeehaw.]...
In 2006, the Indianapolis Colts signed only one free agent, and he wasn't even a position player - kicker Adam Vinatieri. The Colts wound up winning the Super Bowl.

In 2005, the Pittsburgh Steelers also signed only one free agent - wide receiver Cedrick Wilson - to a four-year deal worth less than $10 million. He didn't even start for the Steelers. But guess who won the Super Bowl that year?

This logic is flawed, most teams that are good the previous year are less likely to spend heavily in free agency. The teams that do poorly and have many needs to address are the ones who tend to spend more. Teams that are already proven winners and have had success the previous year are more likely to haev success in the future. Better yet, teams that have had no sucess in the previous year are farily unlikley to win the superbowl.

It's like saying the slow guy with the nice sneakers lost to teh fast guy with the cheap shoes. Did he lose because he spent more money on shoes, or did he lose because he has less talent before the shoes were purchased?

Posted by: sams3 | March 18, 2008 3:07 PM | Report abuse

sam3, I'm going to take a pass on the shoes question, but I really am pleased that the entire roster (of starters) already was under contract this year.

Which leads to the question of re-signing Fabini ...

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 3:15 PM | Report abuse

It's hard to imagine that a WR could recover well enough from a patellar tendon injury to resume a career. If the tendon was torn, Espy will be lucky to be walking normally.

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 3:17 PM | Report abuse

It's also hard to imagine why the Washington Post deems it wise to seemingly allow all of their Redskins reporters to take vacation at the same time. Wasn't the addition of Jason Reid supposed to improve coverage? What about that guy Paul who fills in sometimes (when he isn't monitoring the traffic problems on Waxpool Road)?

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 3:22 PM | Report abuse

It's also hard to imagine why the Washington Post deems it wise to seemingly allow all of their Redskins reporters to take vacation at the same time.

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 03:22 PM

I can imagine one reason ... there is nothing to report.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 3:24 PM | Report abuse

when would you suggest it be a better time for Jasno to go on vacation?

Not much is happening. Nice for a change.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 3:24 PM | Report abuse

Also, Cadillac Williams' patellar tendon injury sounded alot worse than Espy's (at least at first). Initially, they said Williams' career might be over. Now they are saying he'll be on the field by mid-season. Amazing how the field of bionics has evolved in the past three decades (and how it costs ALOT more than six million dollars to totally rebuild a guy).

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 3:28 PM | Report abuse

Eh, maybe the surgery for the bionics might be less than $6M, but I think the balance gets spent by having a sound effects guy following you around making that "na na na na na" sound every time you use a bionic body part.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 3:30 PM | Report abuse

A minimum offer from Washington? It's amazing what kind of cap jail they've put themselves in with all these back loaded and bonus-heavy contracts. Let's just hope we never face a cap-less season, because Washington will destroy free agency.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 18, 2008 02:48 PM

This just goes to show you that any idiot can start up a web page and become an NFL "expert". Thirty more seconds of research would have revealed that the Redskins had adequate space to match or exceed the Carolina offer to Hackett, but they chose not to do so for other reasons.

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Also, I'm pretty sure only professional athletes would get the sound effects guy. After my bionic surgery, my HMO wouldn't spring for the extra audio.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 3:33 PM | Report abuse

This may be the off-season, but looks like it is always open-season on the Skins.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 18, 2008 3:35 PM | Report abuse

Thumbs still twit tilling...........

Posted by: Oldschool | March 18, 2008 3:37 PM | Report abuse

It's also hard to imagine why the Washington Post deems it wise to seemingly allow all of their Redskins reporters to take vacation at the same time.

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 03:22 PM

I can imagine one reason ... there is nothing to report.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 03:24 PM

I'm with Tafka this time. Jason Reed is reporting -- he had a story in today's print edition. And there is a story to report -- why they cut Espy. I feel like this blog has really not received as much energy from the Post reporters (1) as it used to before Barno tried to get them fired or (2) as any of the top 15 posters puts into it.

But, in the scheme of things, why they cut Espy really doesn't amount to 3/5 of fcuk all.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 3:42 PM | Report abuse

This just goes to show you that any idiot can start up a web page and become an NFL "expert".

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 03:30 PM


Really? I didn't know it was that easy! What should I call my site? ;-)

Posted by: freakzilla | March 18, 2008 3:44 PM | Report abuse

3/5 is generous

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 3:45 PM | Report abuse

4th, dcsween, and everyone else thinking DG is one of the top 3-5 all time defensive backs, stop being freaking homers:

Here are 7 that were better (in no particular order:

Ronnie Lott
Deon Sanders
Ron Woodson
Mel Blount
Lem Barney
Larry Wilson
Paul Krause (former redskin, by the way)

These guys all did more in LESS TIME than Darrel green did in 20 years.

And I look at current NFL players who should go above DG on any list:

Ty Law, Ed Reed, and Champ Bailey.


Anyone who things DG is a lock for top 5 needs to take off the burgundy and gold glasses. i'm not saying he wasn't great - he was. He deservedly entered the hall of fame.... but the HOF has some pretty low standards.

I am glad we have very high standards for retiring jerseys. There are alot of great players who played for the skins. There will undoubtably be more. But we cant retire a jersey for every one of them. Sorry.


Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Portis in town giving interviews, Alexander talking about being happy, etc, sounds like it isn't exactly off-season. The absence of any coverage by the Post lately appears to be the result of poor planning.

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 3:48 PM | Report abuse

I know I may regret the next question, but...

Okay, Sween, what part of you is bionic?

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

t_e, you said "...get them fired." I would never claim to speak on behalf of Barno, but I believe his efforts were always to get a particular beat reporter fired, or at least removed from this beat. I don't recall his vitriol having been directed to anyone else from WashPo, except for their unconscionable delay in bringing Jasno to justice.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 3:52 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: F_Barno | March 18, 2008 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Really? I didn't know it was that easy! What should I call my site? ;-)

Posted by: freakzilla | March 18, 2008 03:44 PM

"Redskins' Garage"?

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 3:53 PM | Report abuse

I think I will take off the rest of the afternoon before "he who cannot be named" pops up. Drinking green beer? Not my favorite activity. Invoking the dead? Even less so.

Posted by: tafka | March 18, 2008 4:01 PM | Report abuse

Stumped, that would be either my capacity for snark, irony, or haiku. Take your pick.

SETH.LEMASTER, I didn't say anything about Darrell Green.

Onto other Skins research ... I was thinking about how the Skins can "afford" to take a bye this free agent period, mostly b/c (1) they had a record good enough to make it to the playoffs this season and (2) all of their starters (minus Frost, Suisham, and to some extent The Todd and Fabini) are currently under contract.

So I thought about NEXT season, i.e., how many starters become free agents at the end of NEXT season. While I'm not sure if this is Grade A 100% accurate, kffl.com says the following Skins are the guys heading to free agency next season:

Pete Kendall - UFA
Kevin Sampson - UFA (who?)
Demetric Evans - UFA
Kedric Golston - RFA
Anthony Montgomery - RFA
Khary Campbell - UFA
Leigh Torrence - UFA
Reed Doughty - RFA

[The reason I don't vouch for accuracy is b/c I think Suisham becomes RFA and Frost, if he signs the tender, becomes UFA.]

With everyone else locked up, that looks fairly do-able. The tricky part seems like the defensive tackles.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 4:02 PM | Report abuse

I don't care very much about retiring jerseys, but Deon Sanders and Ken Houston (on the original list) were Redskins too.

And, I'm curious enough to ask why those seven were better than D Green (but not curious enough to do actual research).

Of course, absent any objective criteria for retirement, it's subjective.

Maybe a better discussion would be what the criteria might be (is it the best 3, or 5). This seems like an odd approach since people eventually fall off that top 3 or 5 list as time marches on.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 4:03 PM | Report abuse

psp, you win.

Logic prevents me from continuing this discussion.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 02:03 PM

i win, i always do.

by the way, nice attempt at a cheap shot marino. way to cop out of a discussion when you have no other "logic" to support your argument.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Stumped, that would be either my capacity for snark, irony, or haiku. Take your pick.

So about 3/5ths of your being....hmmm.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, Stumped, that was kind of what I was saying above... we obviously have some criteria being applied at an institutional level to honor former players by pulling their jersey numbers out of circulation. But it's not publicly acknowledged; those jerseys aren't hanging from the rafters, except Baugh's #33. So those numbers (and I would assume those players) are in this odd passive-aggressive limbo.

I say fish or cut bait. Either put those jersey numbers back into circulation or start to publicly, officially honor the players who will be the last to wear them for our beloved team.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 4:10 PM | Report abuse

"I win, I alway's do"

psp, don't take this the wrong way, but you sould like a petulant child with that line. Thats just funny.

And for the record, you didn't win. Espy and I are still TIED for same number of catches. Lets see him actually register a STAT during an ACTUAL regular season game, shall we.??

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 4:18 PM | Report abuse

Don't worry psp, he'll be back... sometimes life happens and you don't get a chance to say your peace on the blogosphere. Give him the benefit of the doubt. I really don't see a regular like gregmarino skirting away from a discussion.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 4:18 PM | Report abuse

there you go...

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 4:20 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of maps, such as, I think I might have found one that will help me get to where I need to get to.

http://www.google.com/sky/

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 4:22 PM | Report abuse

These guys all did more in LESS TIME than Darrel green did in 20 years.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 03:47 PM

I'm sorry, but as a cornerback, I'd take Darrell Green for 20 years than guys like Deion for 10.

If I could draft a guy this year that would be as good as Green for 20 years or as good as Deion for 10, I'd take Green any day of the week. 20 years is a long time to not have to worry about your cornerback position.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 4:24 PM | Report abuse

psp, here is your logic:

The redskins made a mistake in cutting Mike Espy.

Here is my retort:

Zero career catches, no big loss.

So wouldn't he have to actually, sign with a team, and produce like NEVER BEFORE in order for your logic to be considered valid?

On the other hand if Espy continues his storied career, and continues to NOT have any impact on the NFL whatsoever, wouldn't that prove you wrong?

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 4:26 PM | Report abuse

sween, my favorite is the Hoag's object. Beautiful.

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 4:28 PM | Report abuse

"... I'm sorry, but as a cornerback, I'd take Darrell Green for 20 years than guys like Deion for 10. ..."

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 04:24 PM

If I remember correctly, this is exactly what The Owner did when he replaced Green with Sanders ... only for far fewer than 10 years.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 4:29 PM | Report abuse

Scampbell,

Here is a follow-up article on Rick Gosselin's article I posted above.

http://www.hogshaven.com/story/2008/3/18/134350/066

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 18, 2008 02:55 PM

I got a reply from this guy that actually addressed the email i sent to him (not like the hack from San fran) in which he states that he was referring to teams that historically don't blow up the market during free agency (Green Bay, and Indianapolis). He was correct on that one and I responded as such. He said that San Diego and the girls haven't gotten anybody through free agency this year either and that he didn't mention those as well. He was correct on that and I responded as such. He then wished me good luck and the hope that Washington and Dallas would go on to play many meaningful games in January and hopefully against each other.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 18, 2008 4:34 PM | Report abuse

Maybe would should allow 3 or 4 digit jersey numbers.

Like 4377

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 4:35 PM | Report abuse

Maybe would should allow 3 or 4 digit jersey numbers. Like 4377

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 04:35 PM

I like it, but we should put the first two numbers on the front and the last two on the back.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 4:39 PM | Report abuse

oh, yeah.
Beautiful, that way you can kind of have two.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 4:42 PM | Report abuse

could we insert letters as well?

43b on the front and 7t7 on the back

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 4:42 PM | Report abuse

Mike Espy is a poor man's Derrius Thompson.

Posted by: cdubb | March 18, 2008 4:44 PM | Report abuse

Mike Espy is a poor man's Derrius Thompson.

Posted by: cdubb | March 18, 2008 04:44 PM

Whoa! That means that Darius Thompson was a rich man's Mike Espy? Hard to get my head around that.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 4:47 PM | Report abuse

Derrius Thompson is a saint!

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 4:47 PM | Report abuse

"I say fish or cut bait. Either put those jersey numbers back into circulation or start to publicly, officially honor the players who will be the last to wear them for our beloved team."

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 04:10 PM


I do agree with that statement. I think it would be obscene for any skins player to wear 21 for atleast 10 years, but for all the others, the numbers should be retired or put back in circulation.

And to those that were actually interested in some stats:

Dieon Sanders had 53Ints for 1331yards in 14 years with a ton of different teams. He also had 9 TDs.

Darrell Green had 54 Ints for 621 yards (and 6 TDs) in 20 years.

Yes, we as fans loved Green. what other players have stayed with the same team for 20 years? I doubt many. That kind of loyalty is unheard of in the modern NFL. I really wish Green would come back and be a CB coach here or something... but his career stats, while excellent, don't make him a top 5 all-time DB.

Perhaps I am mistaken in viewing his longevity in completely the wrong way, but other players have done more with less time. That was my main point.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 4:48 PM | Report abuse

Derrius Thompson actually caught a pass, during an NFL game. On more than one occasion.

Not so...Mike Espy.

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 4:51 PM | Report abuse

greg,

Are you saying Mike Espy never caught a pass in an NFL game? You're sure about that, right?

So, maybe he's not a poor man's Darius Thompson, but a poor man's Greg Marino, who also never caught a pass in an NFL game. I can get my head around that.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 18, 2008 4:54 PM | Report abuse

SETH is missing the beauty of #28. I'd take DG over Woodson and Barney for certain. Blount is a toss up. Deion was the best for about 5 years. Krause, Lott and Wilson were not corners. Though if I had to build a team and pick one guy from any point in history, I might choose Lott. He was remarkable.

Green was so critical because the Skins let him go one on one against top WRs. I recall Glanville takking about Green once, saying he basically wrote off his own WR when Green was covering him.

Instead of double coverage on the other teams best WR, Green single covered and often shut the guy out. It was almost like the Skins got to play with 12 guys. Which meant they could often blitz without taking a risk.

One game I do recall was the last playoff game for #28, under Norv. They threw at DG 5 times. The QB line throwing to DG?
2 of 5 for 15 yards and a pick!! QB rating -- 0.

Still, the point about 20 years is meaningful. A great CB gets maybe 10 years because if they lose a step, its over. DG was really good for about 15 seasons.

But its always a good idea to come to this board and try to knock down a great Skins player. Because what else can we do?


Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 4:55 PM | Report abuse

PS - nate, my other post never got posted, but i agree with you 100% on officially retiring jerseys or throwing them back into the mix.

the only exception for me would be sean taylor... it shouldnt be retired, but it would be obscene if another player wore it anytime in the next 10 years.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

ta, my ability to research mike espy stats is limited to the wapo, so based on what I can gather he never caught a pass.

I'm a poor mans Derrius Thompson. If that makes sense...

Posted by: gregmarino88 | March 18, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

"Redskin for life" should be a big factor in the decision, though.

Oddly, your argument seems to support DG.

We wouldn't retire Deion's number, would we?
Who would? He played for 5 teams.

And you'll never see DG behind one of these, even for petty SJK.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/1/T/sanders_d.jpg&imgrefurl=http://crime.about.com/od/famousdiduno/ig/sports_mugshots/sanders_d.htm&h=124&w=109&sz=61&tbnid=qn8PtDkfjN4J:&tbnh=124&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDeion%2BSanders&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=1

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

gregmarino,

My first line was a reference to a will ferrell quote. It wasn't supposed to be taken as a serious line of triumph.

"psp, here is your logic:

The redskins made a mistake in cutting Mike Espy."

I have never said that the skins made a mistake by cutting Espy. If I did, I don't remember doing it, I'm sorry, I take it back. My original and continuous QUESTION was "why?" Why did they cut him? My impressions were that he was talented, he was seen as having upside by the staff (Gibbs' staff), and prior to the start of this last season, he had made his way to 4th on the depth chart (behind Moss, ARE, and Lloyd). I think it's safe to say he would've surpassed lloyd at some point during the season. So again, my question was "why?" What have we gained by cutting Espy?

I have been against drafting a receiver high since the beginning, and this Espy release was just another step in the process towards putting all our eggs in one basket. I wanted to go after a vet WR FA and let him duel it out with Espy, Mix, and Caldwell to see who could fill that 3rd slot. You could even throw in a draft pick in that mix. At least then you wouldn't be putting the burden on only one guy, hoping for the best. I never said Espy was the answer, only that he COULD have been the answer. All I wanted to know was why he was cut.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 4:58 PM | Report abuse

zcezcest, can I just call you "Zeke"? Is that okay? I am sorry for being hung up on how, if at all, your handle is pronounced.


I always used to confuse Darnerian McCants and Derrius Thompson and blend them into one dude: Darnerrius. And that one dude who was made out of both of them wasn't very good, either.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 4:59 PM | Report abuse

poolman is a poorman's barno

Posted by: Dorf | March 18, 2008 5:01 PM | Report abuse

PS - nate, my other post never got posted, but i agree with you 100% on officially retiring jerseys or throwing them back into the mix.

the only exception for me would be sean taylor... it shouldnt be retired, but it would be obscene if another player wore it anytime in the next 10 years.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 04:57 PM

Agreed.

I think retiring a jersey really is all about being a Homer, but should be done only when all everyone else can do is agree (even SMACK).

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 5:02 PM | Report abuse

zcezcest1,

i really appreciate your personal experiences watching D Green. That quote was also insightful. I was not trying to knock down green - merely stating my beleif that he was not an top-5 all time DEFENSIVE BACK (i was including safeties and not just corners).

He is definitely a top 10 cornerback, but i dont know how much further I would go with that analogy than that. I simply think other players did more with less time... And also to clarify, i was not singling out Green as the only guy who shouldnt get his jersey retired.

Of the players we mentioned, Ronnie Lott is the only one who i feel "deserves" to have his jersey retired. My point was that retiring a players jersey should be something really really REALLY special, reserved for only an elite few - of the players in the NFL right now, Tom Brady and Payton Manning are the only players who i beleive have done enough for thier teams and the league to have their jerseys retired.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

Maybe the numbers retire themselves.

Who would wear 21?

Has any one else worn 28?

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

Right on, SETH. I think most of us are in agreement in principle about this jersey retirement stuff.

One thing about shifting to an "official" jersey retirement (versus the quiet, informal Bubba Tyer-doesn't-issue-the-number-unless-he-has-a-brain-fart method we use today) is that it would allow us to have a spirited debate up here about who deserves it, what order people should be retired, how they'd honor the retirees in the stadium, and so forth, how lavish the ceremonies should be, how Snyder could monetize each element of each retirement, etc. We're being robbed of an opportunity to squawk about this stuff!


But damn it, I wish Sean Taylor were still alive so we could table the #21 jersey retirement discussion until the end of his illustrious playing career, when we could look back over that long, incredible time and debate his HOF worthiness and so forth. *sigh*

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 5:08 PM | Report abuse

All I wanted to know was why he was cut.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 04:58 PM

So "he's short" and "he hurt a really important body part for a WR" don't work for you? If you're waiting for the "official" position from the Park, they wouldn't see EVEN IF they liked Big Media.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 5:13 PM | Report abuse

Nate ... call me anything you want. I've been called worse. But I never tried to pronounce it.

As for retiring jerseys, its a team thing. I'm not even sure who is retired for the the Skins. But if you are HOF, then I'm thinking your jersey ought to be retired.

In some cases, like Deion, its not at all clear who would retire it ...

As for DG and INTs ... pretty simple story. For years, no one threw at him. Except for Troy with Irvin (who pushed off and got away with it). Green even handled Rice one on one and usually it was a draw.

Every so often, I would just watch Green and just focus on him (tough to do on TV, but sometimes you could). And you'd see there was simply nothing there for the QB. So most QBs wouldn't even bother looking that way.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Stumped, I wore #28 in the burgundy and gold for a few seasons, but they wouldn't let me on the field. Still not sure why.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 5:17 PM | Report abuse

" ... I wanted to go after a vet WR FA and let him duel it out with Espy, Mix, and Caldwell to see who could fill that 3rd slot. ... "

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 04:58 PM

Skins already have that guy on the roster, McCardell, who they should re-sign. McCardell was #5 in receiving stats for the Skins (after Cooley, Moss, Randel El, and Portis ... then after McCardell, it was Betts, Sellers, Caldwell, Thrash, etc.).

The guys the Skins have signed since the end of the season are all tall: McMullen (6'4"); Mann (6'1"); and Toler (6'2"). New guys -- tall. Cut guys -- not tall. Keepers (obviously) are the current (short) #1 and #2 receivers.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Actually, Barno is Poolman's poolman

Posted by: johndinhouston | March 18, 2008 5:22 PM | Report abuse

I always used to confuse Darnerian McCants and Derrius Thompson and blend them into one dude: Darnerrius...

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 04:59 PM

Sort of like the Ol' Ball Coach there, Nate. Didn't he refer to McCants as "DarQuerian?"

Posted by: 4-12 | March 18, 2008 5:24 PM | Report abuse

zeke, I think the Skins have only one "officially" retired jersey number, 33, for Slingin' Sammy Baugh.

But they do have a bunch of numbers which are never (er, almost never... Bubba Tyer brain fart* notwithstanding) given to active players because they are associated with a franchise hero of yore.


* I don't mean to throw Bubba under the bus on the Leonard Stephens-wearing-Bobby Mitchell's-number shabingus, but again, my gripe about this "informal number retirement" is that it probably does amount to the equipment manager having to remember what numbers can and can't be given out when new dudes show up at the Park...

2. whoever said up above that Joey T's #7 should not be out of circulation for the Skins, I wholeheartedly agree.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 5:24 PM | Report abuse

WR Mike Williams is 6'5" ... I bet he could be pried loose from the Titans. I wonder if he was destined to suck ... or just sucked because he got picked by the Lions. I remember EVERYONE clamoring for Mike Williams (and cursing the choice of Carlos Rogers) in that draft. Some drafts turn out better than others.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 5:28 PM | Report abuse

I got a big hole in Skins knowledge between Sammy Baugh and the mid 60's, but I think there are only a 6-8 guys I would think deserve retiring. Green and Houston. Hanburger. Not sure about any other LBs or D line. On the O Line, Jacoby and Grimm. Sonny, Taylor, Monk and Riggins.

Some other guys that could be considered ... Len Hauss, Dave Butz, Larry Brown, Gary Clark, Jeff Bostic.

Who am I missing?

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 5:33 PM | Report abuse

A reminder... there's still time to join the fun... 17 people in the pool and counting! Thanks to everybody already in the mix.

I set up a Redskins Insider NCAA men's hoops tournament group at Yahoo!, and everyone is welcome to join. No money at stake, just bragging rights.

If you want to play, please ping me ASAP at nateinthepdx at gmail dot com. Thursday morning deadline...

Cheers,
Nate in the PDX*

* home of the Portland State Vikings (winners of the Big Sky Conference), and scads of other vikings

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 5:36 PM | Report abuse

And, this is just a logistical point, don't you get to a place where you run out of numbers to retire, or things get awful thin on the numbers front? It isn't like baseball with 25 active players and 99 numbers or basketball with 12 active and 99 numbers.

I like the idea of adding a letter to the number, or maybe we could use a bar code of some fashion. It could make free agency much quicker.

Posted by: johndinhouston | March 18, 2008 5:38 PM | Report abuse

whose number did Bubba give out?

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 5:42 PM | Report abuse

Apparently, Bobby Mitchell's - not good form.

Posted by: johndinhouston | March 18, 2008 5:44 PM | Report abuse

Nate

a very impressive list of Db's great names all.....D.Green was the original shut down corner ie match up mano y mano against the other teams 1 wr all over the field with out help.... he being the first one to do this combined with his legendary speed and longevity have to put him amoung the top of the list....he didn't have the greatest technique or the (greatest hands) and thus relied on his extordindary recovery speed to break up rather intercept lots of passes, in other words he generally did one of two things when he was at the top of his game 1. he blanketed the reciever so tightly the qb had to look else where or 2. he was beaten but recovered in time to knock the ball away.....Ronnie Lott and Rod woodson (soon to HoF) and of course Deon i would give an edge over Darrell if I had to honestly rate them....but not by much...great great player better person and those a rare....

Posted by: Oldschool | March 18, 2008 5:47 PM | Report abuse

zeke, the Bobby Mitchell flap I referenced above -- in the forty years after his playing career (first black player in franchise history), all spent working for the team in the front office, nobody wore his number, 49. Then, as I understand it, he arrived at training camp one day and saw his number being worn by some scrub (Leonard Stephens). He saw that as a snub and quit.

As I mentioned above, I may not have all the info on this, but this amounted to a disgrace, however minor or accidental, which occurred on Dan Snyder's watch... one of many such perceived disgraces.

I love calling you zeke, btw. I finally have a handle on your handle. What a relief.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 5:48 PM | Report abuse

4th, dcsween, and everyone else thinking DG is one of the top 3-5 all time defensive backs, stop being freaking homers:
Here are 7 that were better (in no particular order:
Ronnie Lott
Deon Sanders
Ron Woodson
Mel Blount
Lem Barney
Larry Wilson
Paul Krause (former redskin, by the way)
These guys all did more in LESS TIME than Darrel green did in 20 years.
And I look at current NFL players who should go above DG on any list:
Ty Law, Ed Reed, and Champ Bailey.

Anyone who things DG is a lock for top 5 needs to take off the burgundy and gold glasses. i'm not saying he wasn't great - he was. He deservedly entered the hall of fame.... but the HOF has some pretty low standards.
I am glad we have very high standards for retiring jerseys. There are alot of great players who played for the skins. There will undoubtably be more. But we cant retire a jersey for every one of them. Sorry.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 03:47 PM

O come on!

Woodson and Lott were mainly Safties during their carrers, so they get thrown out off top.

I don't know Lem Barney nor Wilson. Either way, that puts him in the top 6. Pretty nice!

Ok, he was a top 10 CB of all time. Are you still hating?

Posted by: 4thFloor | March 18, 2008 5:50 PM | Report abuse

from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins
(scroll down to "unofficial retired numbers")

"The use of unofficial retired numbers drew controversy during Steve Spurrier's first year as head coach[36] Quarterbacks Danny Wuerffel and Shane Matthews first wore 7 and 9 respectively during training camp. The resulting sports talk furor led to them switching to 17 and 6.[36] During the season, reserve tight end Leonard Stephens wore number 49 for the season. After his retirement as assistant GM, Bobby Mitchell blasted the team, accusing late owners Edward Bennett Williams and Jack Kent Cooke of racism for not being considered for GM and was upset that the team would let a player like Leonard Stephens wear his number."

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 5:50 PM | Report abuse

I like the idea of adding a letter to the number, or maybe we could use a bar code of some fashion. It could make free agency much quicker.

Posted by: johndinhouston | March 18, 2008 05:38 PM

Could be interesting to have a 36D and a 34C running around out there.

Posted by: SMACK1 | March 18, 2008 5:52 PM | Report abuse

Also, I would put Sammy Baugh in the Top 10 All time CBs.

Now whose crazy?

Posted by: 4thFloor | March 18, 2008 5:54 PM | Report abuse

Old School, good catch on Rod Woodson, who I failed to mention above.

I have trouble with the ranking across eras because I don't have the historical knowledge you and others do. It's a fun discussion in a forum like this, and that's what we're doing up here, I hope.

I stand by my statement on Darrell above, which is that I don't expect to ever see a career like his again. I mean everything by that... the player, the person. I'll never forget the feeling in the stadium during and after his final game. Utterly electric. How fortunate we were to witness that career, spent entirely in our burgundy and gold, the epitome of a Redskin. And etc.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 18, 2008 5:55 PM | Report abuse

Bobby Mitchell is a tough call for jersey retirement since he spent some really good years in Cleveland. Plus he has been really important to the Skins organization after retiring. He had about 2 great years in DC, and about 4 more good ones.

I only saw him play towards the later part of his career, when he was a good player, but not in his best years. The other receiver who played opposite him in the mid 60's, the guy wearing #42, was really good.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 5:56 PM | Report abuse

It's spelled "r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s".

Posted by: ygbrown2001 | March 18, 2008 5:56 PM | Report abuse

The guys the Skins have signed since the end of the season are all tall: McMullen (6'4"); Mann (6'1"); and Toler (6'2"). New guys -- tall. Cut guys -- not tall. Keepers (obviously) are the current (short) #1 and #2 receivers.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 05:21 PM

I know this was a joke, but the more I read it, the more it looks like more than a coincidence. That's a lot of "more"s to put into one sentence, but more than likely you know what I mean.

If height actually does have something to do with mccardell/espy not being on the roster, then it's a sad, sad day for this FO.

Posted by: psps23 | March 18, 2008 5:59 PM | Report abuse

Dieon Sanders had 53Ints for 1331yards in 14 years with a ton of different teams. He also had 9 TDs.
Darrell Green had 54 Ints for 621 yards (and 6 TDs) in 20 years.
Yes, we as fans loved Green. what other players have stayed with the same team for 20 years? I doubt many. That kind of loyalty is unheard of in the modern NFL. I really wish Green would come back and be a CB coach here or something... but his career stats, while excellent, don't make him a top 5 all-time DB.
Perhaps I am mistaken in viewing his longevity in completely the wrong way, but other players have done more with less time. That was my main point.
Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 04:48 PM

INTs don't make a CB.

How many passes were thrown and completed are a better statistic. Go and get those, then come back and holla at me.

Also, how many tackles did Deon Have compared to Green? Get those #s too.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | March 18, 2008 6:02 PM | Report abuse

I'd take Green over Woodson. Green was a better cover guy, Woodson was more physical and was a rare corner that could also tackle well. I'd even take Green over Deion if you account for longevity. But at their respective peaks, Deion was better.

Lem Barney was a terrific CB playing for a less than terrific teams in Detroit. Larry Wilson was a FS for the Cardinals, who were also mediocre then. Good against the run and pass. Every time they would run highlight clips of Wilson, it'd feature him tackling Charley Taylor in the backfield.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 6:09 PM | Report abuse

Deion was the only guy I've seen that was a better cover corner than Green. For about 5 years, it seemed like every time the guy would gamble, he'd make the pick and return it. I recall one pick where Deion was covering a guy one on one, instinctively left that guy alone and jumped to cover another guy in the area, got the pick and went 90 yards with it. Sick.

Even Green didn't do that.

Of course, neither were much at tackling.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 6:16 PM | Report abuse

SMACK, I gotta agree. If you had a 36D out there, you'd never want to retire that jersey ...

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 6:20 PM | Report abuse

I have to admit I am surprised at the resistance to the idea of retiring 28. I guess if you go by the redskins official policy (only retiring Slinging Sammy) then of course you can't retire 28 or any other number for that matter.

Team practices vary widely - there are a number of teams that don't have any retired numbers. Some make sense (Texans, Jacksonville) due to their tenure but others (Cowboys) just seem to have a policy of not retiring. Others reach down pretty far (Giants have 11, Cards have 5, etc). Average seems to be about 4 or 5 for those that do it.

This suggests that if you are in the business of retiring numbers, you add one every 10 or 15 years. Put the other way around was DG the most accomplished Redskins over the last 10 or 15 years? Seems like yes to me. Plus you would definitely put DG in given not just his time and accomplishments but his commitment to the Redskins and community. Just my .02.

Come on OTAs...

Posted by: zornskins | March 18, 2008 6:21 PM | Report abuse

Also just browsing all the retired numbers 2 jump out - Pat Tillman and Korey Stringer. Suggests that other teams find it appropriate to commemorate their tragedies - perhaps the Redsksins should with 21.

Posted by: zornskins | March 18, 2008 6:26 PM | Report abuse

Deion was the only guy I've seen that was a better cover corner than Green. For about 5 years, it seemed like every time the guy would gamble, he'd make the pick and return it. I recall one pick where Deion was covering a guy one on one, instinctively left that guy alone and jumped to cover another guy in the area, got the pick and went 90 yards with it. Sick.

Even Green didn't do that.

Of course, neither were much at tackling.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 06:16 PM

Neither were good at tackling? What are you smokin?

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 18, 2008 6:48 PM | Report abuse

4th, dcsween, and everyone else thinking DG is one of the top 3-5 all time defensive backs, stop being freaking homers:
Here are 7 that were better (in no particular order:
Ronnie Lott
Deon Sanders
Ron Woodson
Mel Blount
Lem Barney
Larry Wilson
Paul Krause (former redskin, by the way)
These guys all did more in LESS TIME than Darrel green did in 20 years.
And I look at current NFL players who should go above DG on any list:
Ty Law, Ed Reed, and Champ Bailey.

Anyone who things DG is a lock for top 5 needs to take off the burgundy and gold glasses. i'm not saying he wasn't great - he was. He deservedly entered the hall of fame.... but the HOF has some pretty low standards.
I am glad we have very high standards for retiring jerseys. There are alot of great players who played for the skins. There will undoubtably be more. But we cant retire a jersey for every one of them. Sorry.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 03:47 PM

Why is it that every time I read one of this idiots post I want to throw up? Lets get some facts to back up your sorry argument. And I don't want to hear interceptions and passes defended. Why don't you find a statistic that shows how many times the receiver he was covering wasn't thrown to or even taken completely out of the play because DG was on him like a scorching case of Herpes. No stats to explain that, but QB's and receivers will tell you. Michael Irvin said that DG was the best CB he ever played against because he was always there "like a gnat" just couldn't get away from him.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 18, 2008 6:57 PM | Report abuse

Green's # is retired for all intents and purposes, same with theismann, monk, and a few others. Im in favor of the non retire retire, it says more that players choose not to take these numbers then having to be told not to. also this unofficial retiring system allows for current players to show their class and appreciation of those that came before them by asking the player who wore the "retired" jersey for permission to wear it, much like JC did with Doug Williams and others before him have done. The giants system of official retiring will one day leave them with a situation where they must unretire someone just to field a roster of 53 or fit into the nfls strict system of numbers for each position, or worse yet to not retire a good player because of a lack of jerseys left. The ring of honor at fed ex is a great honor and it is a better way to show appreciation for the great players of a franchise in a game where over half the #s are used every year. having said all that, #21 should be retired for all time without a doubt.

Posted by: matthewwmccarthy | March 18, 2008 7:08 PM | Report abuse

Interesting that any receiver 6-0 or above is considered tall, whereas any receiver below 6-0 is considered short.

I get it if we compare Santana 5-10 to Mix at 6-5, but most recievers are all right around 6-0.

Mann, Maurice WR 6-1
McMullen, Billy WR 6-4
Mix, Anthony WR 6-5
Randle El, Antwaan 5-10
Moss, Santana WR 5-10
Thrash, James WR 6-0
Toler, Burl WR 6-2
Stumped Hamster 5-7 1/2

Posted by: _Stumped_ | March 18, 2008 7:09 PM | Report abuse

Beep and beep.

Posted by: TheCindy | March 18, 2008 7:10 PM | Report abuse

Campbell, I'll stand by the statement that Deion and Green were not good tacklers.

Green really had problems with Irvin. Really the only guy Green couldn't cover during his prime. Of course, a lot of Irvin's catches against Green came on what sure looked like offensive pass interference ... but the refs never called it. When it comes to that, I think its up to the team to adapt to the officiating. I recall at some point, the Skins stopped matching up Green on Irvin.

Irvin had this way off pushing off right before catching the ball. When I watched it in slow motion, its very athletic to push and recover in time to catch the ball in one motion. Seemed illegal to me, but if the ref doesn't throw the flag, its legal.


Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 18, 2008 7:12 PM | Report abuse

4th, dcsween, and everyone else thinking DG is one of the top 3-5 all time defensive backs, stop being freaking homers:
Here are 7 that were better (in no particular order:
Ronnie Lott
Deon Sanders
Ron Woodson
Mel Blount
Lem Barney
Larry Wilson
Paul Krause (former redskin, by the way)
These guys all did more in LESS TIME than Darrel green did in 20 years.
And I look at current NFL players who should go above DG on any list:
Ty Law, Ed Reed, and Champ Bailey.

Anyone who things DG is a lock for top 5 needs to take off the burgundy and gold glasses. i'm not saying he wasn't great - he was. He deservedly entered the hall of fame.... but the HOF has some pretty low standards.
I am glad we have very high standards for retiring jerseys. There are alot of great players who played for the skins. There will undoubtably be more. But we cant retire a jersey for every one of them. Sorry.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 18, 2008 03:47 PM

Seth, what is your criteria for a "top five" corner? Just because you throw some names out there we all recognize we're supposed to accept it? Give some hard evidence, please. I'd like to poll cowboy, eagle, giant and cardinal fans (niners too), and see what their feelings are.

Wasn't Ronnie Lott a safety?

cosmofla

Posted by: squashmo | March 18, 2008 7:28 PM | Report abuse

Not sure if you ever found anything, but the stalkers on ES found their wedding site:
http://www.rawcreativity.com/toshaandtan/

************************************
Trying to track down on the intergoogles about the new Mrs. Santana Moss, the Skins website says he has a son, Santana, Jr. and a daughter, Saniya.

Posted by: dcsween | March 18, 2008 11:25 AM

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