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Position Battles: O-Line Depth

I thought today we would do the position breakdown a little differently, ignoring the current starting five, er . . . four, offensive lineman and getting right down to the nitty-gritty of the unknown involving this position: the backups.

The offensive line is a unit that as a whole has been largely ignored in the early parts of the draft by the Redskins. That has come back to bite them on more than one occasion, with several starters hit by injury over the past couple years and few players ready to step in and compete.

It's easy to make the argument the decline in the second half of last season went hand-in-hand with that of the offensive line, which wore down playing against some of the league's top defenses and in a rugged NFC East. Considering the median age of the starters last season was 33, you can't really be that surprised.

This year the unit will feature two new starters, with right tackle Jon Jansen being released (I know, I know, I'll leave right tackle alone) and left guard Pete Kendall also departing.

Derrick Dockery returned to Washington this offseason after a stint in Buffalo, and he steps immediately into the starting lineup, while the right tackle battle is still ongoing. But behind the starting five of Samuels, Dockery, Rabach, Thomas and . . . whomever . . . there are several question marks and worries about whether this unit again will be the drawback for a team looking to get over the hump from a perpetual middle of the pack team to year-in, year-out playoff contender.

OFFENSIVE LINE DEPTH

The candidates: We know the names for the major competitors at right tackle: Stephon Heyer, Mike Williams and Jeremy Bridges, and for the most part we can leave these names alone since they've been discussed so often in recent months on this blog.

To me, I look at the group and think Heyer and Bridges bring sufficient depth to this unit, and Heyer certainly has proven to be somewhat of a prize considering he was an undrafted free agent.

Heyer has yet to take a strong hold of the starting position and win the confidence of coaches as a true NFL-caliber starting tackle, but I think he more than adequately fills the need of a depth player capable of stepping in when a starter goes down.

Bridges, too, seemingly brings valuable depth. He has starting experience at guard in the league, and he is battling for a spot at right tackle. Should he lose out in the right tackle competition, he becomes a guy the coaches can look to when a player goes down at either guard or tackle.

I was working on a story during OTAs that was pushed back following the late arrival of LaRon Landry to the offseason workouts, and I spoke with offensive line coach Joe Bugel about some depth guys whom he thought were making an impression. Here's who he mentioned, in order, of the younger players: Chad Rinehart, Devin Clark, Will Montgomery and Edwin Williams.

Rinehart obviously disappointed in his rookie season and looked as though he may have been a complete miss. It was reported at the end of last season that during personnel reviews, Bugel and other coaches were very critical of Rinehart's ability, and that there would need to be major changes going into 2009 if he was expected to contribute in any type of role.

During OTAs, Bugel spoke as if those changes were occurring.

"He's a real, real good football player this year," Bugel said. "He's come back ready to go. He's about 309, 310 pounds, so I've been very pleased with him."

I asked Bugel how different Rinehart was from last year considering what we had seen and heard at the end of 2008.

"Night and day," Bugel said. "Difference between yesterday and today. He's going to be a real good football player for us."

Obviously, what someone is willing to say publicly and what they say in personnel meetings are two different things. That doesn't mean Bugel's comments should be ignored, but it also doesn't mean Rinehart is going to be much different than he was last year.

To me, it means he is worthy of attention going into training camp and the preseason, and bottom line is, he'll have to prove it out on the field. But the Redskins certainly need, and would like, for the former Northern Iowa standout to play better this year, as Bugel said he has.

Clark was signed as an undrafted free agent out of New Mexico last season and is a project, though Bugel said he "has really done a good job." Not sure if he fits into the larger picture, however, especially with Heyer, Williams, Samuels, Bridges and Rinehart all able to play tackle.

Montgomery was signed late last season, and he has stints with the Carolina Panthers and New York Jets. A local kid out of Centreville/Virginia Tech, he can play guard or center and has been taking snaps at the No. 2 center spot during OTAs.

Edwin Williams, an undrafted free agent out of Maryland, likely will have to beat out Montgomery to make the roster and may be destined for the practice squad.

Other names in camp hoping to make an impression include Rueben Riley, who has played on both the Redskins and Panthers practice squads, D'Anthony Batiste, who started four games for the Atlanta Falcons in 2007 and has had stints with Dallas and Carolina, and undrafted free agent Scott Burley out of Maryland.

If Rinehart indeed has improved by leaps and bounds, and with Bridges and Montgomery, there actually might be some decent interior depth. But with the aging starters, this is a unit that can no longer be ignored and needs to be upgraded with young, capable starting players . . . and soon.

By Paul Tenorio  |  July 1, 2009; 1:15 PM ET
 | Tags: Casey Rabach, Chad Rinehart, Chris Samuels, D'Anthony Batiste, Derrick Dockery, Devin Clark, Edwin Williams, Jeremy Bridges, Joe Bugel, Jon Jansen, Mike Williams, Randy Thomas, Rueben Riley, Scott Burley, Stephon Heyer, Will Montgomery  
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Comments

Lots of ifs regarding the younger players. But I tend to agree that there is some depth in the interior. However, If Samuels goes down for a prolonged period, I don't see anyone on this team who can start at LT over several games.

Posted by: TWISI | July 1, 2009 2:13 PM | Report abuse

Heyer certainly has proven to be somewhat of a prize considering he was an undrafted free agent.

Mmm never heard that come from the former insider. lol

Posted by: jm220 | July 1, 2009 2:14 PM | Report abuse

first??? Mike williams is going to have a roster spot as long as he is health, why?? because he already has shown his dedication to get back in football shape as he will easily be at 340 or less once training camp opens and well the dude is like a freight train, i dont't know if he has the quicks still to play RT but guard definitely

Posted by: hillb03 | July 1, 2009 2:16 PM | Report abuse

first?

Posted by: arbano1 | July 1, 2009 2:18 PM | Report abuse

This is going to be our downfall this season.

This would not be an acceptable o-line situation for the Ravens or Giants (arguably the best GM'd teams in the league).

For Danny/Vinny, it's A-ok though. I honestly believe these gentlemen are setting JC up for failure. Once the injuries/wear-and-tear start to affect various o-linemen this season, CP won't be able to run free and JC won't have anytime to take a 7-step drop and survey the field. Then, he gets released and we trade for (or draft) a more marketable QB, bringing the Danny millions in revenue

Posted by: jzafied | July 1, 2009 2:38 PM | Report abuse

I would rather have some young unproven kids working to show they belong then a bunch of old time guys hoping they still got it.
I would like to see the lineup shift over the course of the season to some of the new kids.
If our 2010 Line has no names from our 2008 line. I would be cool with that.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 1, 2009 2:39 PM | Report abuse

better yet, JC will take the fall and Colt Brennan becomes the marketable QB that Danny has dreamed of... think about all the hype!

Posted by: jzafied | July 1, 2009 2:41 PM | Report abuse

first??? Mike williams is going to have a roster spot as long as he is health, why?? because he already has shown his dedication to get back in football shape as he will easily be at 340 or less once training camp opens and well the dude is like a freight train, i dont't know if he has the quicks still to play RT but guard definitely

Posted by: hillb03 | July 1, 2009 2:16 PM | Report abuse
--------------------------------------

From what Ive heard of Zorn, quickness is not the problem. Apparently the big boy can move. Zorns concern is durability with so much weight.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | July 1, 2009 2:50 PM | Report abuse

The tackle position will be an issue. If Samuels goes down, the team will be hurting. Right tackle is still up in the air and even when they find the player to start, I think the player will need blocking help from a tight end on that side. The team could have addressed the offensive line in the draft, but chose to go in another direction. They will be paying for this decision in November and December - just like last year.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | July 1, 2009 2:50 PM | Report abuse

do we have all our picks for next years draft?

Posted by: follybeach | July 1, 2009 2:59 PM | Report abuse

For Bugel to speak so highly of Rhinehart's improvement speaks volumes..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 3:11 PM | Report abuse

Where is 4th? Did his wife read the blog yesterday and now he is on lock down? lol

Posted by: jm220 | July 1, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

But if you can pressure the QB and stop the run (all of which starts up front with the DL), you can win against ANYBODY.

Posted by: brownwood26

Corollary: If your OL is bad, ANYBODY can beat you

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

The Skins offensive line depth should be significantly improved from last year.

I predict Heyer (if he loses the RT competition to Williams), Bridges, and Montgomery will be the primary backups; with the final spot or two (Rinehart, Clark, Batiste, Riley, Williams, or Burley) predicated by special teams play...

Posted by: siris | July 1, 2009 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Two places I'd like some info:

1.) Is Pete Kendall gone as in gone? Any contact with him for the vet minimum? If there's nothing better on the team for depth by opening day, I know I'd feel better with him on the team.

2.) Jansen wouldn't've made a bad backup, and I haven't seen any information on how his release saved significant cap space for this season. Would he have been that bad a cancer in the locker room that he had to be let go?

Posted by: WorstSeat | July 1, 2009 3:36 PM | Report abuse

Shocking number of Romo jerseys spotted at the AT&T National Pro-Am today. But the real kick in the pants was Jason Campbell signing a Romo jersey. What's up with that?

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 1, 2009 3:37 PM | Report abuse

How are we already claiming what will be the 'skins downfall and they haven't played a GAME yet?

The o-line maybe weak -- maybe. But does it have to be the downfall?

"And that's not all
MCs have the gull
To pray and pray on my downfall..."

I love p***y, but does it make me weak, or has to result in my downfall? I thinks not.

Doom and gloom. Doom and gloom.

jm, 4th is busy hitting up all the web sites that sell jerseys. It was not wise to challenge the boy on the jersey game. But he might, he might have a jersey I don't

Posted by: RedDMV | July 1, 2009 3:38 PM | Report abuse

"Corollary: If your OL is bad, ANYBODY can beat you
"

In fact , ANYBODY WILL beat you..(pigmeat was in my head all day, post wasn't meant for your preceding comment)

Tiger just whent down a couple of notches choosing "Enemy Spaz" over JC..Hope that leg doesn't bother you..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 3:39 PM | Report abuse

Thus is like tumbling domino's. Much like last year, sub-par O line performance will cause Zorn to get conservative, Portis will get banged up and worn down and look like he's lost a step and the timing based West Coast offense will never get in sync.

Here's a Madlib for you:

People will start saying "this proves: __________ (fill in the blank - Campbell, Zorn, Portis, our WR draft from last year) is/was:___________ (fill in the blank: a mistake, too old, suks!)

Gotta get the O-line back to dominance.

Posted by: edvar | July 1, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

IF the Redskins weren't the Redskins, the Redskins would be a good team.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | July 1, 2009 3:43 PM | Report abuse

Please, please, please stay healthy Samuels.

Posted by: coparker5 | July 1, 2009 3:43 PM | Report abuse

I think we saved some money by releasing Jansen, but I'm not sure how much. I think it was less than a mil.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | July 1, 2009 3:44 PM | Report abuse

I really have no idea on how the OL will look this year. Samuels is returning from injury. Dockery had a miserable year last year, much worse than Kendall. Rabach is a good, not great center. Thomas has a serious injury last year and has significant injuries almost every year here. The RT comes down to a complete unknown (Williams), a marginal starter in Bridges and a guy who is more or less backup material in Heyer.

The rest is also filled with unknowns. Reinhart never played. Add another rookie or two in the mix with a few guys who've had minimal experience and you have ... question marks. Lots and lots of questions marks.

Which leads me back to my post at 3:23pm.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

I'm kind hoping Williams steps in and dominates at RG, even tho I hate counting on discarded players who have been out of the league for a couple of years...

Having a 33 year old starting guard with a plate and a couple of screws in his neck who has been having trouble finishing seasons is not anywheres near an ideal situation.

Not sure how the FO let that one go without being addressed...

Posted by: edvar | July 1, 2009 3:56 PM | Report abuse

Skins fans will see a proper offensive line in late August:

http://www.patriots.com/games/index.cfm?ac=gamedetails&eid=3369

"Defense Dept. manual equates protest=terrorism", now, THAT'S an offensive line..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 4:06 PM | Report abuse

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527181,00.html

How come Fox is the only news outlet to cover this story allowed on Google?? "Gatekeeper" news is not freedom of speech..Google's a tool (or haven't ya 'eard)..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 4:14 PM | Report abuse

Frak
Fox is not the only to cover, may be the most recent but I have heard about this story for a while. probably saw it posted on FB 10 times now

Posted by: alex35332 | July 1, 2009 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Paul T:

"...The offensive line is a unit that as a whole has been largely ignored in the early parts of the draft by the Redskins."


A sad, but true fact.

Hopefully, J Bugel can get the group he has to pull together to play as a servicable and united force.

Otherwise, all the crowing about the stellar defense and hopes for the young receivers will be just that---hope.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 1, 2009 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Didn't NE's line give up the most sacks last year?


And why can't Heyer get a little more love around here? He's the guy now. Fans should be rooting for his success. Hanna-Barbera wouldn't have to look far to find someone to play Glum if they re-made the Adventures of Gulliver. And it's not like he's been awful. People still crying for Jansen? I just don't get it.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 1, 2009 4:25 PM | Report abuse

Didn't NE's line give up the most sacks last year?


"
Votes 16 Votes .18 Votes 16 Votes .Roberts#1: Get off my lawn... said 06/13, 09:40 PM
He was the most sacked QB last season in New England, getting sacked one more time than Ben Roethlisberger. This happened on a team with a pretty good offensive line. An offensive line that allowed 21 sacks on Tom Brady the season before. Now he goes to a Chiefs team with an OL that is a shadow of it's former self.

His left tackle, Damian McIntosh has given up 14.5 sacks in the past two seasons with the Chiefs. Everyone always talks about how important the blindside protection is, McIntosh doesn't provide it very well, and Cassell is easily sackable. But then again, Matt Light doesn't offer great protection either, so let's say that his blindside protection is equal.

Dan Koppen is a top center. He gave up 0 sacks in 2007 when Brady was QB, 4.5 with Cassell. Koppen is also the model of consistency, he hadn't given up more than two sacks when protecting Brady.

Eric Ghiaciuc figures to be his new center. He's no Koppen.

KC's best OL Brian Waters is disgruntled and wants out. Not a good thing.

KC also lost the ultimate security blanket in Tony Gonzalez and their receiving corps is much weaker than the Pats. Their running game is dead, so Cassell will be blitzed often."

What he said..Also Matt Cassel was sitting on the bench and cruising his old Sunset Strip haunts for years, not to be confused with Mathew Brady..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 4:39 PM | Report abuse

sike!!!

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Hand -

I don't think people are crying for Jansen. Pretty much everyone knew he was done. They just don't have much faith in Heyer 'cause frankly, he hasn't done much to earn it.

I think a lot of people feel he's definitely good enough to be on the roster, but not convinced he's good enough to be a dominant starter in the NFC East. Gotta earn that by proving it first.

Posted by: edvar | July 1, 2009 4:42 PM | Report abuse

edvar, what does he need to do to earn respect - make a pro bowl? If the Skins drafted a RT in the first round people would be yeasting that player up without him having taken a snap. So that can't be it. Did JC get killed last year when Heyer was protecting his blindside for 4 games. He's a good pass blocker and needs to work on run blocking. If he hadn't been injured in college he would have been drafted.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | July 1, 2009 4:49 PM | Report abuse

Im glad Jansen is gone.
You get to a point where you cant tie up anymore money in a position because so much money is tied up into it.

Our policy of deferring financial reality has brought us face to face with the reality that we really couldnt throw much money around at depth without seriously trimming the beef at the top.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | July 1, 2009 4:52 PM | Report abuse

When Jon Runyan finishes his rehab later this month from offseason surgery and passes a physical, the Redskins should sign him immediately. Philly will not bring him back and he does not want to move his family. His lives right up the road in South Jersey, is super smart, super tough, and knows the NFC East obviously very well. He gave up only one sack all season last year on one leg. He wants to play 2-3 more years and would be a perfect fit at RT for this team until they find or develop the RT of the future. Sign Runyon when he's fit and be done with it.

Posted by: Chris2172 | July 1, 2009 4:56 PM | Report abuse

Skins have picked 49 players from 2001-2008. The OL guys:

C 7th round Jeff Grau

G 3rd Dockery
G 7th Lefotu

T 3rd Reinhart
T 6th Molinaro
T 6th Reggie Coleman

There are 25 starters (incl 3 special teams guys), it means the OL represent 20% of the starters. Since injuries are common on the OL, I would suggest that it makes sense to overweight the OL in the draft.

The Skins have invested 12% (6/49) of their picks on the OL. They have invested 0% of their 13 picks from round 1 or 2 on the OL. They have had 28 picks in rounds 1-5 and invested just 2 picks on the OL or 7%

A balanced draft means you draft in proportion to the number of starting jobs.

round tot#pix OLpix %OLpix balanced
rd 1-2 .... 13 .... 0 .... 0% .... 2.6
rd 1-5 .... 28 .... 2 .... 7% .... 5.6
rd 1-7 .... 49 .... 6 .... 12% .. 10.0

Perhaps the most absurd view is this ... Since 2001, we've drafted twice as many TE in rounds 1-5 (4 total), where there is only 1 starting job, than OL (2 total), where there are 5 starting jobs.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 4:57 PM | Report abuse

Like I said, he needs to become a dominant regular starter in the NFC East - not some guy who did a pretty good job coming off the bench and pass blocking for a couple of games but still needs work on his run blocking.

I'm not down on the guy. I hope he continues to make progress. But he hasn't shown me enough to say "yeah, he's our guy, let's not worry about that position anymore" the way Samuels and Jansen did for almost a decade.

Posted by: edvar | July 1, 2009 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Right now they have MeShawn filling in for Jim Rome on Rome is Burning. That's right. Keyshawn Johnson. This is the kind of thing that would be made fun of by...well, Jim Rome. Someone at ESPN needs to be fired.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 1, 2009 4:59 PM | Report abuse

I could see runyon here. Man has an attitude and vinny thinks its OK to build an OL by using stopgaps (see Kendall, Pete)

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 5:02 PM | Report abuse

Does Runyon have anything left?

We just got rid of a guy who had some great years - "had" being the operative word there...

Posted by: edvar | July 1, 2009 5:08 PM | Report abuse

Runyon..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 5:10 PM | Report abuse

This is interesting...I've been a fan of Weisman for years:

Larry Weisman Leaves USA Today For NFL Team
Posted by Mike Florio on July 1, 2009 4:24 PM

One of the things that we do around here -- especially when the NFL news is slower than Casey Hampton after eating Thanksgiving dinner -- is keep an eye on media that covers pro football.

There's been a development today in that industry. Larry Weisman, who has spent 26 years with USA Today, has left the national daily publication.

Weisman will join the Redskins, where he will become the Editorial Director of the Redskins Media Department.

"It's exciting to have Larry Weisman join our media team," said Senior Vice President/Executive Producer-Media Larry Michael in a team-issued release. "Larry is one of the most recognizable NFL writers in the country, and his work at USA Today was second to none. Larry's credibility and experience will give Redskins fans something new and compelling to look forward to this season and beyond."

He will contribute to the team's various radio, television, and print properties.

We've known Weisman for several years; he's one of the national media figures who chose not to peer down his nose at us at a time when that was the standard reaction we provoked. (Currently, the default response by national media is to cover the nose. But only after we've had enchiladas.)

And so we congratulate Larry on more than a quarter of a century with the same employer, and we wish him well in his new endeavor.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 1, 2009 5:15 PM | Report abuse

Methinks that for the old war horse (Kendall, Jansen) they tell it like it is and release them early so that they have a chance of signing elsewhere.

Great scoop from Buges, who is a total straight shooter.

"He's going to be a real good football player for us."

This means he has a future and a roster spot that is practically guaranteed (unless he shoots himself in the foot or leg or something).

Best news I've heard in a while a reason to celebrate or shoot off fireworks or something.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | July 1, 2009 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Zeke -

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding our drafting strategy towards O line.

I guess they felt going for vets like Thomas and Rabach was a better way than drafting and developing. Can't say I completely agree with that approach. Expensive and hard to sustain.

Posted by: edvar | July 1, 2009 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Buges' strategy seems to be to take OL-men with potential and coach them up together, move them around and reshuffle them.

The Skins have depended upon him to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I worry about what will happen when Buges retires.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | July 1, 2009 5:24 PM | Report abuse

"I guess they felt going for vets like Thomas and Rabach was a better way than drafting and developing. Can't say I completely agree with that approach. Expensive and hard to sustain."

Well, considering it's "Dan", who thinks the answer to the world's problems is "Mo' Money, Mo' Money!!", throwing dough at the problem makes up for the imagination and effort needed to grow and build a homegrown line...Speaking of which, I wish I had about an oz. right now!! Back to you, Jim!!


Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 5:27 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Chris2172 | July 1, 2009 5:27 PM | Report abuse

But Thomas and Rabach rawk, anyway , not their damnd fault..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 5:29 PM | Report abuse

Balanced drafting:

QB 4%
OL 20%
WR 8%
TE 4%
RB 8%

DE 16%
LB 12%
DB 16%

Tm 12%

OK, so you overweight certain groups (QB) and underweight others (Teams). But overall, you want to be fairly close to the number of picks to the number of jobs.

So here is what the Skins have done in rounds 1-5 (28 pix total):

balanced -- Skins pix
QB 4% -- 11%
OL 20% -- 7%
WR 8% -- 21%
TE 4% -- 14%
RB 8% -- 7%

DL 16% -- 4%
LB 12% -- 11%
DB 16% -- 25%
Tm 12% -- 0%

The biggest irony is that the Skins have drafted 60% of their round 1-5 picks on offense -- and that is by far the weaker unit.

Also of note, the biggest areas of 'neglect' are the OL, DL and special teams.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 5:31 PM | Report abuse

Looks like Frak is ready for a long weekend...

...and yeah, Thomas got it done for a bunch of good years.

Beam me up Scotty!

I'm out.

Posted by: edvar | July 1, 2009 5:40 PM | Report abuse

zce,
Now you know that some positions draft better than others. I don't advocate using 21 percent of your picks on WR, but you might have to go maybe 12 or 16 percent, because most of the time they're just guys who play football, not the dominant playmakers (wasn't he a punter) we dream about.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | July 1, 2009 5:42 PM | Report abuse

it seems like you should use roster spots rather than starting spots

Posted by: follybeach | July 1, 2009 5:43 PM | Report abuse

you still need 3 qbs and 5-6 wrs, etc

Posted by: follybeach | July 1, 2009 5:44 PM | Report abuse

I know this is going down a road well traveled, but how this FO could virtually ignore OL in the past draft is beyond comprehension.

Rabach is shaky, R.Thomas has broken down the last couple of seasons, and now a year older coming back from a serious injury, one is supposed to be confident he's going to perform at a high level into Nov,Dec, and hopefully Jan? PLEASE!!

And like the poster, I'm not even going to touch the grab bag situation at RT.

Why couldn't they have drafted the Oher kid who is with Baltimore? I know we needed a DE, a SLB, but was that as pressing a need as our old duct taped OLine?Defense was not the problem last year,they were weak at times mainly because our predictable, non-dimensional,lethargic offense kept them on the field too long. Our offense stinks!! I hope it'll be improved this season, but without a strong Oline the offense is going to stink again.

Also, I don't have much confidence in Samuels playing strong all year, he's getting older and injury prone.If he goes down who's going to protect JC backside?

I don't understand what the hell Danny/Vinny are thinking by not putting a high emphasis on drafting/developing Oline talent like other recenty succesful teams.What a bunch of F&*%$#G idiots!!
People running teams of 6 and 7 year olds have more dam football sense.

Posted by: 72Redskins | July 1, 2009 5:53 PM | Report abuse

"Why couldn't they have drafted the Oher kid who is with Baltimore? I know we needed a DE, a SLB, but was that as pressing a need as our old duct taped OLine?"

Vinny would say, "Orakpo was the highest rated player available." Not totally evil, but the demon from D.C. might say, "It's easier to control the points for Vegas when the score is low." That's the evil devil that lives under the bridge , not me..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 6:08 PM | Report abuse

it seems like you should use roster spots rather than starting spots

Posted by: follybeach

I've looked at it from that perspective -- and a few others. The 'starters approach' is actually pretty good -- none is perfect. Basically, you want to account for other things, like playing time (nickel backs, DL rotations, 3rd WRs, etc), injuries (OL), position value (QB) and who you've already got on your roster.

The best overall I think is to look at the top 30 spots. You add a nickel back, a backup QB, a 3rd WR, 1 OL and 1 DL. But that doesn't change the main point very much.

I'm sure there is a formula that could be created to account for all these things. But from what I've looked at, I think the 'starters' approach makes more sense than 'roster spots' approach.

Lastly, a key reason I use 25 spots is laziness -- it makes the math is easy -- everything is multiples of 4%, not 3.33% or some other awkward number.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 6:10 PM | Report abuse

The same evil demon might say, "Too bad Danny's investments are all in the red...Guess we'll have to rig some games.."..sike..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 6:18 PM | Report abuse

im with you on playing time factor.

Posted by: follybeach | July 1, 2009 6:22 PM | Report abuse

72Skins -- I have no problem with drafting Orakpo if he was the best available at a position of need. Clearly DE and OLB are both 'need' positions.

However, you point about not drafting OL is spot on. You need a plan when drafting. You can argue any given pick, but when you need OL and don't draft any ... its pretty clear there is no plan.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 6:24 PM | Report abuse

I don't know about anyone else but I want to hear about 4th happy hour not so happy booy call. LMAO! I really hope your wife doesn't read this blog 4th.

Posted by: jm220 | July 1, 2009 7:17 AM

Luckily for me, it was with her premarriage. It's more funny than dirty though. I'll save it for later this summer as we still have 3 1/2 more weeks of slow news.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | July 1, 2009 6:43 PM | Report abuse

Orakpo is DEFINITELY a position of need, as was third-rounder CB from Maryland, so , and given success of defense-heavy Pittsburgh and 2007 NYGs, Vinny and Dan make some sense. Kim launches his sorry-a** chinese bottle rocket at Hawaii, whats left of the polar icecap is going to melt from the BBQ that'll happen over Pyongyang..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 6:51 PM | Report abuse

I really don't mind that the Redskins develop depth on the offensive line through the lower rounds of the draft. The problem is they needed a starter on the offensive line - an immediate impact player - and they didn't get him in free agency or in the draft.

And don't get me wrong, I like Buges as much as the next Redskins fan, but he had some nice things to say about Crummey last year and now where is he? I'll believe Rhinehart is the real deal when I see him knocking defensive linemen on their A$$es.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | July 1, 2009 7:01 PM | Report abuse

fwiw -- I was the one suggesting we trade up for Curry. I do think this team is about defense and Curry is very likely to be an elite player.

To me, an elite defense is one that dominates so much that the offense needs to do very little to win. This defense is 1 elite player away from being an elite defense. If Orakpo is everything that people believe Curry is, we're there.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 7:05 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, but if this team traded up, it was going to be tempted by Sanchez. I'm glad we stayed put.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | July 1, 2009 7:19 PM | Report abuse

I worry about what will happen when Buges retires.


Posted by: _Stumped_ | July 1, 2009 5:24 PM |

I look forward to the day he retires and the Skins can upgrade the OL coach position. Not to diminish what the dude has done previous.

Posted by: LittleGreenBag | July 1, 2009 7:40 PM | Report abuse

IF the Redskins weren't the Redskins, the Redskins would be a good team.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | July 1, 2009 3:43 PM |

WTF? IMHO U R FOS. ROFLMAO!

Posted by: LittleGreenBag | July 1, 2009 7:49 PM | Report abuse

Okay , Wisconsin Romo ain't all bad. Look, you could see the busted-play savior in him years ago. All the anti-cancer PR for charity, Gettin' dumb over Hollywood babes
But now, there is no Terrell, who was made for the busted-play West Coast offense (a current need of the Skins- maybe Colt; maybe Chase, would do better in the damaged o-line WestCo busted play attack )). Just because you walk into DC with Tiger, don't think we don't know you got a propane tank strapped to your ass, Homo!! Or you, with your crowskull hat , shooting your rockets from your Jesus Christ pose, while you grin like a timberwolf, the smokey breath , betrays the lost innocence...sowela..

Posted by: frak | July 1, 2009 7:56 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 8:02 PM | Report abuse

redskinhead

"...The problem is they needed a starter on the offensive line - an immediate impact player - and they didn't get him in free agency or in the draft."

Once again, amen.

The hope you have to have is that going into the 2010 draft, with all but one (the 6th round) picks in the kitty, the Wizards of Redskins Park add a young center and right guard.

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 1, 2009 8:06 PM | Report abuse

fwiw, Jessica Simpson does provide considerable, ummmm, shade

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 8:07 PM | Report abuse

"It's exciting to have Larry Weisman join our media team," said Senior Vice President/Executive Producer-Media Larry Michael in a team-issued release.

With a title that long you'd think they could squeeze d-bag in there somewhere.

Posted by: mack1 | July 1, 2009 8:09 PM | Report abuse

zcezcest1 nice posts, be interesting to see what top teams like NE, IND, PITT have done with their draft picks

Posted by: noone_from_tampa | July 1, 2009 8:27 PM | Report abuse

Used rounds 1-5 from 2001-2008

balanced draft -- Skins pix (28) -- Pats pix (43)

QB 4% -- 11% -- 5%
OL 20% -- 7% -- 16%
WR 8% -- 21% -- 12%
TE 4% -- 14% -- 9%
RB 8% -- 7% -- 7%

DL 16% -- 4% -- 16%
LB 12% -- 11% -- 9%
DB 16% -- 25% -- 24%
Tm 12% -- 0% -- 2%

Remarkable how close the Pats picks map to the balanced draft. Or is it? Sounds like a team with a plan.

Most notable, the Skins made only 11% of their picks on the lines, the Pats 32%

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 10:03 PM | Report abuse

Man, I thought the Redskin cynics were rough, tough and abundant, but they ain't got nothing on the Wizard insiders. They make Periculum sound like Snider's bosom buddy.

I understand OCCASIONALLY voicing displeasure with your favorite team and their shortcomings, but damn; If I feel like I'm arguing with a fan from another team then somethings off. Yao Ming? er Naw Mean?

Judging from the lack of activity in the last 2 hrs, is it safe to say:

Last?

Posted by: Vicc | July 1, 2009 10:23 PM | Report abuse

zce: "balanced draft -- Skins pix (28) -- Pats pix (43)
QB 4% -- 11% -- 5%
OL 20% -- 7% -- 16%
WR 8% -- 21% -- 12%
TE 4% -- 14% -- 9%
RB 8% -- 7% -- 7%
DL 16% -- 4% -- 16%
LB 12% -- 11% -- 9%
DB 16% -- 25% -- 24%
Tm 12% -- 0% -- 2%"

Couple of comments:
1. The Pats had what, 35% more picks than the Skins? Doesn't that represent a strategy of deliberately accumulating picks? Which in fact is what Belichick has said they do, figuring that half of them won't work out.

2. Don't you have to factor in FA signings? For instance, this year the Skins decided to add Dockery, Mike Williams, and Bridges, plus some journeymen. Why would they draft additional O-linemen? Unless they lacked faith in their signings, of course.

3. I'm not sure you're demonstrated that the Skins lack a plan -- couldn't it be that they have a different plan from the Pats?

Posted by: Samson151 | July 1, 2009 10:37 PM | Report abuse

Is Roger Goodell a racist? Or was he given an autonomous power to screw the lives of troubled colored NFL players. Has NFL become a communist organization? If not, how can the disciplinary action absolute power fall in the hand of one man? Roger Goodell has now become the Prosecutor, the Judge and Jury, in a country known for Justice.

Posted by: abxinc | July 1, 2009 10:50 PM | Report abuse

Samson151,

I wasn't gonna comment on those stats, though I give credit to zcezce for finding them, but if I did, it woulda been similar to yours.

The Patriots were also very lucky to get a steal in Tom Brady, to whom I credit the majority of their success.

Corollary: If we had drafted Tom Brady, we wouldn't be comparing our drafts to the Patriots...

Posted by: Vicc | July 1, 2009 10:52 PM | Report abuse

Is Roger Goodell a racist?

Posted by: abxinc | July 1, 2009 10:50 PM | Report abuse


You know,

Why arn't there more Black head coaches?

When will there be more Asians in the NFL?

Where are the Hispanic QB's?

What happened to the White CB? (oh wait, they arn't colored)(they are a different species)

Since Goodell says playing in the NFL is a right.

Posted by: Vicc | July 1, 2009 11:19 PM | Report abuse

Let's spread the word--racism that is--abxinc, lol.

Posted by: Vicc | July 1, 2009 11:23 PM | Report abuse

Did I mention, Facetious, is my middle name?

Posted by: Vicc | July 1, 2009 11:25 PM | Report abuse

Last?

Posted by: Vicc | July 1, 2009 11:32 PM | Report abuse

OK, completing the chart. Used rounds 1-5 from 2001 to 2008.

Column 1 -- idealized balanced draft
*
Column 2 -- Skins picks (28 total)
Column 3 -- Pats picks (43 total)
Column 4 -- Indy picks (45 total)
Column 5 -- Steeler picks (41 total)
Column 6 -- jints (38 picks total)


QB 04% * 11% -- 05% -- 00% -- 10% -- 05%
OL 20% * 07% -- 16% -- 18% -- 20% -- 08%
WR 08% * 21% -- 12% -- 07% -- 05% -- 13%
TE 04% * 14% -- 09% -- 07% -- 07% -- 08%
RB 08% * 07% -- 07% -- 02% -- 12% -- 03%

DL 16% * 04% -- 16% -- 13% -- 13% -- 21%
LB 12% * 11% -- 09% -- 20% -- 15% -- 16%
DB 16% * 25% -- 24% -- 33% -- 17% -- 24%
Tm 12% * 00% -- 02% -- 00% -- 02% -- 03%

Of note, % of picks on the lines
Skins: 11%
Pats: 32%
Indy: 31%
Pitts: 33%
jints: 29%

Skins highest % for:
WRs, TEs, QBs

Skins lowest % for:
OL, DL

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 1, 2009 11:49 PM | Report abuse

draft picks by position (rds 1-5, 2001-2008)
Col 1: Skins
Col 2: avg of Pats, Colts, Steelers, jints

QB 11% -- 05%
OL 07% -- 16%
WR 21% -- 09%
TE 14% -- 08%
RB 07% -- 05%

DL 04% -- 16%
LB 11% -- 15%
DB 25% -- 24%

Tm 00% -- 02%

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2009 12:12 AM | Report abuse

I'd take Bellichek and Brady over all the OL the Pats have drafted since 2000.
The problem with this type of analysis is that the sample size is way too small -- 32 pro teams (31 if you count the Lions); every year, 31 teams show you how (a) not to do it, (b) how not to quite do it, or (c) how to come out of nowhere and almost do it.

I just wish we'd taken Duke Robinson with the #13. While it's true that he was --apparently-- the #187th best player in the draft [you are what your record is - B. Parcells], there were some Hamsters Up Here that assured me he's sliced bread.

Posted by: daggar | July 2, 2009 12:23 AM | Report abuse

dagger, say what you will about the data, but the sample size includes nearly 195 draft picks taken over a period of 8 years.

When the top teams average 32% of their picks on the lines and you average 11% -- that isn't a nitpicking.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2009 1:51 AM | Report abuse

What the..........?

(INSERT image of Moe waking up, taking a pee, farting rather loudly, checking out the blog, saying to himself in a yawn, "Naw, Goodell ain't a racist," then heading back to bed.)


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ,zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (fart: hissing and smelly), zzzzzzzz.........zzzzzzzzz...grappa is the best drink.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Posted by: MistaMoe | July 2, 2009 2:45 AM | Report abuse

Every time I read this blog I wonder at: 1) how JLC keeps coming up with something to say when there's nothing to be said and 2) how so many people write in with opinions about absolutely nothing.... It is a wonder.

Posted by: atidwell | July 2, 2009 5:34 AM | Report abuse

Sun is shining, The weather is sweet.


Posted by: Vicc | July 2, 2009 5:56 AM | Report abuse

atidwell,

It's a blog about nothing. Not a Seinfeld fan?

Without offering opinions, how do you engage in discussions? Wait a minute...U got me, fish on a hook. *chuckle*

The irony of your post is magical. If I were next to you, I'd give you the ole 'At-a-boy', accompanied by a pat on the shoulder.

Posted by: Vicc | July 2, 2009 6:08 AM | Report abuse

Every time I read this blog I wonder at: 1) how JLC keeps coming up with something to say when there's nothing to be said and 2) how so many people write in with opinions about absolutely nothing.... It is a wonder.

Posted by: atidwell | July 2, 2009 5:34 AM

Welcome to the offseason, my friend! Where jibba jabba reigns supreme!

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 6:09 AM | Report abuse

I personally hang around for the vivid 'frak' Schtick.

Posted by: Vicc | July 2, 2009 6:17 AM | Report abuse

Every time I read this blog I wonder at: 1) how JLC keeps coming up with something to say when there's nothing to be said and 2) how so many people write in with opinions about absolutely nothing.... It is a wonder.

Posted by: atidwell | July 2, 2009 5:34 AM

How long did it take you to forumlate this thought? JLC left the blog a month or two ago, so you must have been thinking it through for a while. He left because he ran out of things to say when there's nothing to be said. But that hasn't stopped the rest of us.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | July 2, 2009 6:23 AM | Report abuse

For you Madden fiends like myself...here's the link for the full bounty of ratings for the Skins:

http://maddennfl.easports.com/cover.action

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 6:51 AM | Report abuse

Just a quick drive-by. I looked at the previous thread and the first thing I thought was "DeAngelo Hall will be thrown to a LOT this year". Why?

1. Because Carlos Rogers is a very good man to man cover corner.
2. Because DeAngelo Hall is a TERRIBLE cover corner.

Hall is Asante Samuel, but slower, and with a worse guess percentage on jumpping the route.

The Raiders didn't discard him because he was 'cancer' in their locker room, they have plenty of that every year anyway, they discarded him because he's abysmal in coverage.

He was poor in ATL too - but always seems to get credit for the INTs as being more important than the HUGE passing plays he gives up with monotonous regularity.

You guys will miss Springs much more than you think this year. An 8-8 season again.

Discuss....

Posted by: Redcoat | July 2, 2009 7:30 AM | Report abuse

You guys will miss Springs much more than you think this year.

Posted by: Redcoat | July 2, 2009 7:30 AM |

We miss Springs every year. At least this year we won't be playing him while he's on the bench recovering from some let problem. But, yeah, when he was out there he was more solid than Hall or Rogers.

Nice to see you you old Limey Baztard.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | July 2, 2009 7:46 AM | Report abuse

Some thoughts on the Skins' Madden ratings:

-Smoot got hosed. 69 overall? 37 strength rating? Unless he's a punter this year, that's unacceptable. That's Todd Pinkston type stuff.

-Montgomery has a 39 speed rating. WTF?

-Betts and Cartwright got jobbed on their speed ratings. 79 and 82 respectively. 79 for a RB??? That's reserved for the likes of Shaun Alexander and Ron Dayne.

-Suisham sucks. My first order of business when I buy the game will be to cut him.

-HB Blades with a 67 speed rating? At LB? Beyond dumb.

-Orakpo is gonna be a beast. A 76 rating at LB, can't wait to see that jump up once I switch him to DE.

-London Fletcher at an 89 overall is a joke. Dude is a top 5 MLB and his rating should reflect that.

-Campbell still gets no respect. A 77 accuracy rating is a joke. If they wanna dock him on deep accuracy or awareness, I can take that but 77 accuracy is at least 6 points too low. His throw power should always be in the 90s and they dropped it to 88.

-Colt Brennan a 49 rating? A retarded horse could pull a 50. They put his accuracy at 83, but throw power at 74. 74??? Mindnumbing...

-Andre Carter pulls an 84. Unreal.

-The 2nd round WRs got jobbed. Not that they earned the benefit of the doubt or anything, but there's no chance Malcolm Kelly is the same speed as James Thrash.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 7:51 AM | Report abuse

Bugel needs to get his story straight he initially last year raved about Rhinehart, then the kid doesn't get into any games and at the end of the season Bugel basically says he is a wasted draft pick. Now all the sudden the kid can play?

These coaches need to stop sucking up to these veterans and put guys on the field that can play, period.

This also goes for the runnning backs coach or whomever is making decisions. There is no way Betts is so valuable that he cannot be replaced, he has no speed, no awareness, nor can he block and he tends to fumble. If one of these new kids emerges and has legit speed, and toughness get Betts outta here

Posted by: TheBeatDontStop | July 2, 2009 8:20 AM | Report abuse

Don't put too much stock in the opening ratings on Madden. The first adjustment package is the real indicator. They just don't have any real data to go on - wrong or right.

And on the post - I like Burley out of MD. 2 reasons: #3) Who doesn't want a lineman named BURLEY?! He was born to play line. And #F) I think those MD QB stats were probably aided in great part by MD O-Linemen. We've already got 2 on the squad right? So adding one more, if he's decent, would give you multiple benefit, beyond just his talent, better cohesion.

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 8:31 AM | Report abuse

There is no way Betts is so valuable that he cannot be replaced, he has no speed, no awareness, nor can he block and he tends to fumble. If one of these new kids emerges and has legit speed, and toughness get Betts outta here

Posted by: TheBeatDontStop | July 2, 2009 8:20 AM


At the risk of being repetitive and pissing off T_E, I'm all for replacing older guys on the roster. But only when there's someone to replace him. Like it or not, Betts is the best #2 RB we've got. And don't give me crap about Aldridge or Mason until they play a snap against someone's starters.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 8:32 AM | Report abuse

Wow, RedCoat. Throwin' tha H8rAde around this mornin' eh? Here's hopin' Taylor's leg doesn't explode on you this season... hehe. Good luck w/ the gimmick offense that everyone has figured out now, too ;]

I think, as he showed last season, that Hall will be a model NFL Corner this year. He came in last year and immediately added the pics the D was missing. As players like TO exemplify, motivation is key in the modern NFL. If the player WANTS to do it for you, he will. You just have to take him there. Hall is a natural Redskin. Besides, D is the last thing to pick on for this team.

If we're 8-8, it won't be the defense's fault.

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 8:43 AM | Report abuse

Beat, just curious…..how does a guy with no speed, no awareness (please tell me how you measured that one), and who can’t block rush for over 1,000 yards in half a season? Agree on the tendency to fumble part, but I think it boils down to one fumble per 45 carries or something like that…..I think that if the coaches actually follow through on their claim that he’ll get more carries this year, we are all going to see his worth again.

Posted by: dlhaze1 | July 2, 2009 8:50 AM | Report abuse

Hall will be fine as a cover corner and is one of the fastest players in the league. He ran a 4.18 at the combine...

If he was such a bad cover corner in Blanche's system, then why did he replace Rogers as a starter after Springs came back from injury?

The Skins CB challenge this year is to replace the excellent slot coverage that Springs provided. Smoot was not that good in that role; although holding coverage may not be as important this year because the pass rush should be significantly improved...

Posted by: siris | July 2, 2009 9:01 AM | Report abuse

What's really funny is Samuel's 40 time was clocked at 4.49...

Posted by: siris | July 2, 2009 9:06 AM | Report abuse

ESPN is doing those ultimate standings again...Skins are again #92:

Last Year's Rank: 92
Title Track: 57
Ownership: 94
Coaching: 76
Players: 70
Fan Relations: 82
Affordability: 118
Stadium Experience: 99
Bang for the Buck: 74

That 118th rank in Affordability is well earned: the $35 parking, the $79 average ticket, $7 beer, $5 red hot. For all that gelt you'd expect a little glitz. Say the folks at Hogshaven.com: "For the amount of money spent by fans, you would expect a state-of-the-art screen like the one 30 minutes away in Baltimore." Thanks to owner Dan Snyder's partnering with StubHub, some fans sell their tickets to big games (Monday and Sunday night football) to offset their costs. The weekly sellout crowd of 88,604 love their team, but when you charge through the nose -- and don't give a skin whom the money comes from -- sometimes you get what you charge for. Like the Monday night game against Pittsburgh, when thousands of Terrible Towels turned FedEx Field into an away game, forcing Jason Campbell to employ the silent count. Oh boy. We hear you, Skins fans. Problem is, nobody calling the shots does.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 9:11 AM | Report abuse

Hall woulda had 3 picks with us last year if it wasn't for Selfish Springs during tha Giant game.

I did like the Springs-T.O. matchup though, but now they'll play agains't each other in the 2nd best division in football.

The Pats let Hobbs go to the Iggles. I hope they are not counting on Springs to fill the starter role for more than 10 games.

Posted by: Vicc | July 2, 2009 9:16 AM | Report abuse

zce: "Skins highest % for:
WRs, TEs, QBs
Skins lowest % for:
OL, DL"

Which suggests a (Skins) philosophy that the draft is the best place to get those offensive skill position players, but is less good for finding linemen.

Suppose the FA talent pool for linemen is larger than that for WR or QB. O-linemen are generally paid less, and many (particularly the backups) were originally lower round choices, or undrafted free agents who took time to develop. Maybe some coaches and FOs are dismayed by the failure rate among drafted linemen (think Rinehart's performance last season) and would rather take a shot at a FA who's been to a couple NFL camps or started games.

In order to establish a causal relationship between % of choices spent on linemen and resulting team record, you'd have to show a substantial difference between the teams at the top and the bottom of the league.

And most importantly, control for that FA variable, since that's a significant alternate source of linemen for certain teams.

A very large project, indeed, so I'm not actually expecting anyone who isn't getting paid to do it, but you have a worthy thesis and if indeed there is a relationship, it would help teams to know it.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2009 9:46 AM | Report abuse

More on D. Hall: For those of you who haven't figured it out yet, the Oakland area is filled with anti-talent - whenever a talented player goes there he suddenly loses all of his ability. Hey, Superman has his kryptonite, the NFL has Oakland. Remember how pathetic and washed up Randy Moss was supposed to be in Oakland? The same is going to be true with Hall, and I dare say our linebacker Robert Thomas will show more in Washington than he ever did in Oakland. Anti-talent: if we could bottle it, we would send a case to Philly, Dallas and New York.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | July 2, 2009 9:59 AM | Report abuse

Well if we can atleast find one or two more "Heyer" like players out of Williams, Clark, Mike Williams, we may be okay....but the key issue is that we have to have an early draft pick spent on an olineman or maybe even two. So if Campbell doesnt work out..get the qb at 1(provided that Brennen flops) and then get an olineman with the 2nd or 3rd rd pick...simple to me...

Posted by: impervious99 | July 2, 2009 10:02 AM | Report abuse

I remember that, Vicc. Good point RedSkinHead!

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 10:07 AM | Report abuse

Well if we can atleast find one or two more "Heyer" like players out of Williams, Clark, Mike Williams, we may be okay....

Posted by: impervious99 | July 2, 2009 10:02 AM

Those are rare. That's the most frustrating thing about this FO...they hope to strike it rich with undrafted guys instead of taking care of the OL or DL in the draft.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Hating on Buges is tard. He is still a good O-Line coach.

Heyer still a lot to prove, but yes I am half full on this dude...

The love for M. Williams baffles me....Erasmus James part 2 (albeit without the loss of 7th round pick)

Posted by: chrislarry | July 2, 2009 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Hall will be fine as a cover corner and is one of the fastest players in the league. He ran a 4.18 at the combine...
Posted by: siris | July 2, 2009 9:01 AM


Not true. There is a huge difference between the Official time and the unofficial time.
He isnt even listed as one of the top 20 best official times.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/48047.html

He ran a 4.41, if you are going to throw out stats, make sire they are right.

Posted by: gatorskinz2000 | July 2, 2009 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Or sure for that matter! ha

Posted by: gatorskinz2000 | July 2, 2009 10:24 AM | Report abuse

Hall's track accomplishments may not be legion, but he's certainly a FAST MAN!

Sure, he's no Leigh Torrence - but who among us can make THAT claim?!

Let's look at what he's done for us:
He finished his first year with the Redskins with 25 tackles, two interceptions (one against the 'Girls) and eight pass deflections in seven games (four starts).

That's good, right? Uh-huh, Okay, whussuu? Shudduuup.

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 10:35 AM | Report abuse

c'mon, cL, help me push the Terp angle! hehe.

Yeh - I mean, I HOPE mWIL does something for us - that mass is awe inspiring. But at that age, I'm just not seeing it.

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Wood,
You know that Madden 10 is when they finally are going to get back to having very few 90+ rank players. There are some positions that supposedly have no players ranked over a 95.
I think the average ranking for a "starter" is below 80 in 10.

So don't think a 49 means this year what it meant in 09-08-07.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 10:38 AM | Report abuse

Didn't kno that Alex - good deal. Maybe they're making room for some historic all-star teams or something?

I'm just so glad I still have '08 w/ The Reaper & Lust for Mayhem!!

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 10:52 AM | Report abuse

I didnt know he had his own site. Man, I would have visited along time ago.

http://www.leightorrence.com/home.php

Posted by: gatorskinz2000 | July 2, 2009 10:56 AM | Report abuse

So don't think a 49 means this year what it meant in 09-08-07.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 10:38 AM

Alex, a 49 is bad no matter how you're sliding the scale. The idea behind the lower ratings was to middle everyone out around the same rating and seperate the elite from the pretty good (which is why I don't get Andre Carter having an 84 rating). But bad is bad, and a 49 has to be one of the worst rating on the game if not THE worst.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 10:57 AM | Report abuse

To me Madden has gone down hill since '04, which was the last version of the game that made an 80 rating a good starter.

I have NCAA 09 and Madden 09 probably have played NCAA 09, 20x more often. Madden 07-09 seemed to have all players over a 90 rating after the first year.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 11:00 AM | Report abuse

Let 'em hate on m'man Colt, Brownie. That way it'll be all the sweeter when he steps in during a Soup injury and drives 'em for 6!

GatorSk, et. al. - you can POST on his BLOG at LeighTorrence.com. I believe our mission is clear.

HAIL!

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 11:02 AM | Report abuse

Wood, I think there are guys this year that will be a 30 or something. Not that I am gonna worry about it, I decided last year that I will not buy an update for Madden until I get a next-gen system.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 11:02 AM | Report abuse

I hear you Alex. I think it was great on PS2, I just hate franchise mode on the PS3 version. Bare bones stuff and didn't carry over much of what made franchise great on the PS2. Hopefully they step that up this year.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 11:04 AM | Report abuse


I worry about what will happen when Buges retires.


Posted by: _Stumped_ | July 1, 2009 5:24 PM |

I look forward to the day he retires and the Skins can upgrade the OL coach position. Not to diminish what the dude has done previous.

Posted by: LittleGreenBag | July 1, 2009 7:40 PM |

Change. Not always good. When Gibbs retired, he did the right thing, but the only problems was there was no one better to replace him with. Now we have Zorn, who has potential, but only one more year to prove himself. The same will be true of Buges when he retires.

Prediction: Zorn will win 8 or 9 games this season, but fail to make the playoffs. Zorn and Campbell will both be gone after next season and later will prove their worth elsewhere. Buges will retire after next season.

The Skins will be back to square one.

This is not what I hope for, but it could very well happen.

Posted by: _Stumped_ | July 2, 2009 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Wood, I think there are guys this year that will be a 30 or something. Not that I am gonna worry about it, I decided last year that I will not buy an update for Madden until I get a next-gen system.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 11:02 AM

That's the right call...once there's a next gen system they mail it in on the older platforms. I got Madden '09 on PS2 and took it back. I'll suffice it to say that they used the exact same coach ratings of Joe Gibbs and Al Saunders and applied them to Jim Zorn and Sherman Smith.

The PS3 version is great from a visual standpoint, but I'm still waiting for them to treat the franchise mode like they should.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

I hope that the new rating system works out for them this year.

I cannot remember if it was Madden 04 or 03, but I had one version which I loved because of that whole rarity of elite players. I can still recall how my teams were set up in those games once I got 10 years into a franchise.

I had a QB who I drafted, never had a rating above 83, but because I constantly worked to have a 90+ HB and at least 1 elite WR he was able to be my starting QB for 5 years, then I traded him at 30 for draft picks, after spending a first round pick on a great QB the prior season who was able to surpass his ranking after 1 season as a backup.

Those were the era's of Madden that turned us all into armchair GMs. You learned that not everyone needs to be a superstar but if a guy is not a C+ he does not merit a roster spot.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Wood,
I still have 09 for PS2. My favorite part is that Zorn's age is listed as 69 years old (Gibbs age) His rankings were awful, and because he is already 69 in the game he retires in the first 3-4 years. I also love that Gibbs, Shotinhimer and a bunch of retired coaches are still in the game too.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 11:16 AM | Report abuse

Serena Williams advances to the Wimb. finals after a tough exciting match against Dementeiva. The Girl is BAD!!

Might be a Williams vs Williams final.

Posted by: 72Redskins | July 2, 2009 11:22 AM | Report abuse

Those were the era's of Madden that turned us all into armchair GMs. You learned that not everyone needs to be a superstar but if a guy is not a C+ he does not merit a roster spot.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 11:12 AM

I get that, but I just hate that you can't draft a quality player unless you link it up with the NCAA game. If you do the Madden generated draft, the 1st overall pick is like a 75 rating. That's just dumb. Plus the players that progress and how is completely arbitrary so you can't just bring your picks along into starters/stars with any regularity. I hear that's supposed to be better this year.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 11:23 AM | Report abuse

I also love that Gibbs, Shotinhimer and a bunch of retired coaches are still in the game too.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 11:16 AM

Hilarious...and yet Cowher is nowhere to be found.

I just wish they'd add Russ Grimm as a coach on the game so I could ditch Zorn and build the Redskins RIGHT!

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

The list of things they need to do to re-build the madden franchise is a long one brown.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 11:38 AM | Report abuse

Good move by Weisman...
Print is dead.. and the Skins are a recession proof vehicle (aka skins' knucklehead fans, like me)...plus media mobility (skins tv and radio).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


This is interesting...I've been a fan of Weisman for years:

Larry Weisman Leaves USA Today For NFL Team
Posted by Mike Florio on July 1, 2009 4:24 PM

One of the things that we do around here -- especially when the NFL news is slower than Casey Hampton after eating Thanksgiving dinner -- is keep an eye on media that covers pro football.

There's been a development today in that industry. Larry Weisman, who has spent 26 years with USA Today, has left the national daily publication.

Weisman will join the Redskins, where he will become the Editorial Director of the Redskins Media Department.

"It's exciting to have Larry Weisman join our media team," said Senior Vice President/Executive Producer-Media Larry Michael in a team-issued release. "Larry is one of the most recognizable NFL writers in the country, and his work at USA Today was second to none. Larry's credibility and experience will give Redskins fans something new and compelling to look forward to this season and beyond."

He will contribute to the team's various radio, television, and print properties.

We've known Weisman for several years; he's one of the national media figures who chose not to peer down his nose at us at a time when that was the standard reaction we provoked. (Currently, the default response by national media is to cover the nose. But only after we've had enchiladas.)

And so we congratulate Larry on more than a quarter of a century with the same employer, and we wish him well in his new endeavor.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 1, 2009 5:15 PM

Posted by: SkinsneedaGM | July 2, 2009 11:45 AM | Report abuse

Buges has had Div 3 ncaa talent to work worth.. How do you diss on him? He should of quit after each of the last 3 Drafts..
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Hating on Buges is tard. He is still a good O-Line coach.

Heyer still a lot to prove, but yes I am half full on this dude...

The love for M. Williams baffles me....Erasmus James part 2 (albeit without the loss of 7th round pick)

Posted by: chrislarry | July 2, 2009 10:14 AM

Posted by: SkinsneedaGM | July 2, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

heyer should win the rt spot because he can protect the qb. this is why he won the spot last year before he was injured. his is issue is with the run game. he is more of a finesse guy.

Posted by: jnicol2 | July 2, 2009 11:52 AM | Report abuse

I try and look at our whole o-line as half full as I can.

Posted by: alex35332 | July 2, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Hating on Buges is tard.

Posted by: chrislarry | July 2, 2009 10:14 AM

It is. And you know what else is tard? NFLN's Top 10 from last week ranking Devin Hester ahead of Brian Mitchell for the best return man in NFL history. I wanted to jump thru my TV when I saw that sh*t.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 12:06 PM | Report abuse

alex35332 - I think you can look at the offensive line as half full - except for Mike Williams, at 365 lbs, who might be double full.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | July 2, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

Indeed! Madden '10 is about a month away from dropping...

I haven't bought NCAA football since '06. I don't know, there is something about the game that doesn't seem realistic to me. I think it's because how fast EVERYONE is. Or just seems to be.

The Madden franchise is THE sports game. I'll put it up against any game.

wood, those ratings are a joke. But if you're on your sh*t then it really doesn't matter anyway.

Play 'em up = coach 'em up

Fav all-time sport games:

Madden '95
NBA Live '95
NHL '94
Triple Play '99
Tecmo Bowl/Super Bowl
Double Dribble
Bulls vs. Blazers
Mike Tyson Punch Out

I know I might be forgetting one...

Posted by: RedDMV | July 2, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Good move by Weisman...
Print is dead.. and the Skins are a recession proof vehicle (aka skins' knucklehead fans, like me)...plus media mobility (skins tv and radio).

Posted by: SkinsneedaGM | July 2, 2009 11:45 AM


Now all we need is Herzog back calling games and I'll be happy.

"Touchdown...Washington Redskins"

Ahhh...

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 12:17 PM | Report abuse

Buges downfall is he is too loyal to those vets. You have to have a "what have you done for me lately" mentality as a coach in the NFL, and his absence of that mentality may be one smudge on otherwise spotless armor. There is no question that the man can teach and develop offensive linemen. You know, maybe this is where the head coach has to step in and say, "I think you're looking at this player with rose-colored glasses". Do you think that is what happened with Jansen? If it was, then hats off to Zorn for playing it right.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | July 2, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

If the Bears never f'd with Hester, then yeah I agree, Devin Hester would've been the best returner of all-time.

Posted by: RedDMV | July 2, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

If the Bears never f'd with Hester, then yeah I agree, Devin Hester would've been the best returner of all-time.

Posted by: RedDMV | July 2, 2009 12:22 PM

But the list is supposed to be who IS...not shoulda been. Because we'd be talking about Gale Sayers if we're playing the shoulda/woulda/coulda sh*t. Hester almost did in 2 years what B-Mitch took over a decade to do when it came to TDs, but his total yardage is light years away from B-Mitch. That alone should give him the edge.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 12:28 PM | Report abuse

That's the most frustrating thing about this FO...they hope to strike it rich with undrafted guys instead of taking care of the OL or DL in the draft.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 10:08 AM |

It can be done if you know what you are doing. The Falcs had a good OL in 2008 with a bunch of "nobodies". I don't think the Skins have the coaching smarts to do what Atlanta did.

Posted by: LibertyValence | July 2, 2009 12:34 PM | Report abuse

Senior Vice President/Executive Producer-Media Larry Michael

Are we talking the same guy who does the radio broadcast stuff? Because I wouldn't want to work for a guy who had to blow his way to the top.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

I’ve been watching those NFL top 10’s too; they are pretty cool. Agree that BMitchell should have been #1. Here’s a question for anyone who has been watching a lot of those shows: WTF happened to Bernie Kosar??? All of a sudden it’s like he got hit with the “old retired jewish guy syndrome”. He’s like a cartoon character of an old jewish guy. Last I saw he was a regular looking joe, and now his voice is all weird, he sits back in a chair like he can’t stand up, and talking like he’s angry at the world….really weird, but maybe it’s just me…..

Posted by: dlhaze1 | July 2, 2009 12:44 PM | Report abuse

WTF happened to Bernie Kosar??? All of a sudden it’s like he got hit with the “old retired jewish guy syndrome”. He’s like a cartoon character of an old jewish guy. Last I saw he was a regular looking joe, and now his voice is all weird, he sits back in a chair like he can’t stand up, and talking like he’s angry at the world….really weird, but maybe it’s just me…..

Posted by: dlhaze1 | July 2, 2009 12:44 PM |

He's devolved from "Boy Genius" and "Boy Wonder" into "Bankrupt Old Fart". He's living in OJ land now and not liking it one bit. Heh, heh.

Posted by: LibertyValence | July 2, 2009 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Are we talking the same guy who does the radio broadcast stuff? Because I wouldn't want to work for a guy who had to blow his way to the top.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2009 12:36 PM |

It ain't what you know.
It ain't who you know.
It's who you blow!

Good call pal.

Posted by: LibertyValence | July 2, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

That's the most frustrating thing about this FO...they hope to strike it rich with undrafted guys instead of taking care of the OL or DL in the draft.

Posted by: brownwood26 | July 2, 2009 10:08 AM |

It can be done if you know what you are doing. The Falcs had a good OL in 2008 with a bunch of "nobodies". I don't think the Skins have the coaching smarts to do what Atlanta did.

Posted by: LibertyValence

If the top 4 NFL teams (Pitts, Indy, Pats, jints) all draft pretty similarly to each other, then its a lesson worth learning.

Would you use the Falcons blueprint or the blueprint from the 4 teams I mentioned? Me, I'd learn from the guys that are consistently at the top of the league and collecting the Lombardis. Benchmark the best.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2009 12:53 PM | Report abuse

Brian Mitchell (Side note: Why is it when he doesn't "feel the love" from DC he goes to rival markets) had the distinction of primarily playing his entire career as a return man. Didn't he play for 13 or 14 years? Hells yes, that's a lot of return yards to rack up. You have to believe if the Bears never wanted to convert Hester to WR, he would've surpassed Mitchell in no time.

I know it's crazy and blasphemous, but I don't consider numbers from 35/40 years ago and back to be eye popping and draw dropping. To me those dudes were way ahead of their time, and was playing in a league that I think I could've got some decent numbers. Athleticism was really lacking back in the day.

Don't believe me? Watch a basketball tape from like 1951 or something.

Posted by: RedDMV | July 2, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

If the top 4 NFL teams (Pitts, Indy, Pats, jints) all draft pretty similarly to each other, then its a lesson worth learning.

Would you use the Falcons blueprint or the blueprint from the 4 teams I mentioned? Me, I'd learn from the guys that are consistently at the top of the league and collecting the Lombardis. Benchmark the best.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2009 12:53 PM |

There is a BIG disconnect between the data you have presented and the point you are trying to make. All that work for nothing. Too bad!

Posted by: LibertyValence | July 2, 2009 1:03 PM | Report abuse

Everything Bernie tried to do right ended up going in the crapper. I can't blame him for being a crotchety codger, lol.

He opens a restaurant in an up & coming South Miami neighborhood trying to 'elevate the hood'. It tanks.

He buys a piece of the Panthers. They suck. He tries radio, he sucks. I think he wants to be Artie Lang.

Poor guy.

And I never liked Herzog all that much, but compared to Larry Micheals, he's frekkin' Pat Summerall!!

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 1:09 PM | Report abuse

I agree with you zcrest, those teams are year in and year out in the hunt for the Lombardi trophy because they put an EMPHASIS on DRAFTING and DEVELOPING bluechip O/D lines.

I would copy them if I were Danny and Vinny and not hope to get lucky like Atlanta with nobodies, undrafted free agents, and castoffs.

The skin's offense was painful to watch the last half of the season, just abysmal, defenses (remember Balt.&Pitts.) just mauled and manhandled our Oline, like men going against boys.

Posted by: 72Redskins | July 2, 2009 1:19 PM | Report abuse

I look forward to the day (Bugel) retires and the Skins can upgrade the OL coach position. Not to diminish what the dude has done previous.

Posted by: LittleGreenBag | July 1, 2009 7:40 PM |

Bag--

You can't make chicken salad out of Chicken Shiite, and that's what has been provided to Bugel the last few years.

While Vinny panders to every wish the defense wants, and Dan insists on name "skill" players, the Oline is the MOST neglected position on the team.

Yet, the guy you look forward to being done with managed to put together a formidable Oline of oldies, retreds, bum-knees, and one tackle who pass blocks, one who run blocks and the team got off to a 6-2 start.

When the wheels fell off due to the old age and ongoing neglect afforded the Oline, sure enough it fell apart.

Have you seen any other Oline coach snap up Geissinger? Has Kendall caught on anywhere?

And it's more of the same this year. Retreds, fat guys and other team's problems. Meanwhile, they again pander to the defense, adding a 100 million dollar man, overpay for Hall and draft a DE and DB with their top two picks.

The trouble isn't the guy asked to coach up that bunch, it's the management which doesn't get him good players to coach up.

Sheesh.

Posted by: TheCork | July 2, 2009 1:31 PM | Report abuse

Amen, Cork. This FO is a joke.

Posted by: 72Redskins | July 2, 2009 1:35 PM | Report abuse

Column 1 -- idealized balanced draft
*
Column 2 -- Skins picks (28 total)
Column 3 -- Pats picks (43 total)
Column 4 -- Indy picks (45 total)
Column 5 -- Steeler picks (41 total)
Column 6 -- jints (38 picks total)

used rds 1-5 from 2001-2008

QB 04% * 11% -- 05% -- 00% -- 10% -- 05%
OL 20% * 07% -- 16% -- 18% -- 20% -- 08%
WR 08% * 21% -- 12% -- 07% -- 05% -- 13%
TE 04% * 14% -- 09% -- 07% -- 07% -- 08%
RB 08% * 07% -- 07% -- 02% -- 12% -- 03%

DL 16% * 04% -- 16% -- 13% -- 13% -- 21%
LB 12% * 11% -- 09% -- 20% -- 15% -- 16%
DB 16% * 25% -- 24% -- 33% -- 17% -- 24%

Tm 12% * 00% -- 02% -- 00% -- 02% -- 03%

Thoughts on the draft picks:

I'll call the top teams the GOF (gang of 4). The GOF all picked a higher % of defensive players than the Redskins. A minimum of 45% to a max of 66% were defensive players, while the Skins only picked 40% on defense.

The GOF all selected between 29% and 33% linemen, the Skins 11%.

Everyone seems to think DBs are important. The minimum % of picks used on DBs was 17% and it ran as high as 33%. The Skins were right in the middle of that.

WRs are not heavily weighted, the GOF used a max of 13% on WRs (avg 9%), compared to 21% for the Skins.

The GOF used 16% of their picks on the OL and 16% of their picks on the DL.

Compared to the balanced model I suggested, the GOF were:

-4% on OL (20% vs 16%)
+4% on TE (4% vs 8%)
+3% on LB (12% vs 15%)
+8% on DB (16% vs 24%)
-10% on teams (12% vs 2%)

All the other positions were within 2% of the balanced draft.

In practice, the balanced draft, which is simply picking players in proportion to the number of starters, holds quite well for the GOF, except for special teams (underweight) and DBs (overweight).

One other note. No doubt the weighting on special teams was high. I considered there to be 3 starters on teams (K, P, KR/PR). Some draft picks may have been taken, at least in part, on their return potential, but classified as a DB or WR, etc

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2009 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Look at it this way:

Big Al, Hall, Fletcher, Orakpo, and the rest of the Defense aren't going to be worth a dam in the 4th quarter after they've been on the field all day due to our inept, 3 and out, redzone challenged offense. Case Closed.

Posted by: 72Redskins | July 2, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

I think we're all agreed upon the inadequacies of the FO.

But that doesn't absolve coarches from finding a way to get it done. I'm not saying we could have a trophy from Gibbs 2.0, but we could have gone at least one game further in every season in that tenure. Last year too.

And the complaint that Buges is all up on players and then despondent mid-season when it's all falling apart is valid. I do not agree that this should cost him his job. Far from it. I actually WANT someone so invested in their job as Coarch.

But it is annoying to be sold a Mack Truck and get a Daihatsu... lol.

c;mon Buges - let's get these guys movin' some walls!

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 1:43 PM | Report abuse

One other note of the balanced draft. I set it up for the Skins, who run a 4-3 defense. A 3-4 defense would obviously have a different proportion of LBs and DL. Since the GOF is a mixed group of 3-4 and 4-3, the LBs and DL should be almost about equal. And in fact, they are, with 16% of picks on the DL and 15% at LB.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | July 2, 2009 2:21 PM | Report abuse

Best case scenario - interior depth:

Backup LG - Al Sharpton (2 years ago)
Backup RG- Jeff Bridges

Posted by: ElYeah | July 2, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Buges downfall is he is too loyal to those vets.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | July 2, 2009 12:21 PM

Buges doesn't have "a downfall."

And he'd love to replace the vets. There's only one reason he hasn't and it isn't about loyalty. The guys he has to replace the vets aren't as good as the vets. That's not on Joe Bugel but on the guy who's bringing in players.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | July 2, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

ElYeah, it's The Duuude, maan!

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 2:40 PM | Report abuse

"the Defense aren't going to be worth a dam in the 4th quarter after they've been on the field all day due to our inept, 3 and out, redzone challenged offense. Case Closed.
Posted by: 72Redskins"

Ever notice how whenever somebody finishes up with "Case Closed', it usually comes after something that doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense?

Maybe that's why they don't want to discuss it.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

72redkins: "I agree with you zcrest, those teams are year in and year out in the hunt for the Lombardi trophy because they put an EMPHASIS on DRAFTING and DEVELOPING bluechip O/D lines."

Yeah, but you're also the guy who says 'Case Closed'. You have to prove your point first. I would argue that despite his admirable attempts, zcezce hasn't done it for you.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

Redskins O-Line is still a huge weakness. I'm still surprised we took Orakpo when there were still quality OT's like Oher available which is a greater need for the Skins long-term. I could easily see both Thomas and Rabach being gone after this year. Samuels has a couple of years left assuming he can recover from his latest injuries, but he is probably better suited as a RT as this point in his career.

Depth? The kid they drafted last year Rinehart appears to be a bust. If he was a good 3rd pick, he'd have been the starter last year or received some playing time. The fact that we paid a king's ransom to bring back Dockery is very telling about Rinehart. Except for Bridges/Heyer, none of the reserve lineman have any playing experience.

It's scary that the Skins continue to make big splashes in free agency but fail to address a major area of concern from even when Gibbs 2.0 was in power. The Skins line is one injury to Samuels away from being one of the league's worst.

Posted by: wizfan89 | July 2, 2009 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Samson101?

In case your mentally challenged, what I'm saying is the defense will be ineffective because they're tired from being on the field all day because the offense can't sustain drives. Does that make sense to you?

Posted by: 72Redskins | July 2, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Lol, Samson. But he does have a good point.

Still, there are alot of innocent men behind bars due to "case closed".

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Preachin' to the choir, Wiz!

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 2:51 PM | Report abuse

72redskins: "Why couldn't they have drafted the Oher kid who is with Baltimore?"

Well, they obviously could have. But chose not to. As did 22 other teams. So the question should be: given the massive hype around this player, why did all those teams pass?

I don't have the answer. I'm hoping someone else knows something about the kid that I don't.

Eccentricities aside for the moment, teams draft on a risk-reward basis. A player might be a good value at 23 but not at 13. Part of the risk scenario is how much the team will have to pay him, based on the NFL's slotting system. Part of the reward equation is how dramatic the team's need is at a particular position.

The Skins obviously had a need at right tackle, and Vinny knew it. They had to be considering releasing Jansen since the end of last season. So why, given their need, didn't they grab Michael Oher?

Baltimore, on the other hand, had a perfectly functional if aging right tackle when they decided to draft Oher. If Ozzie Newsome had been picking at 13, would he have still taken him? Nobody knows, but somehow I doubt it. Why? Because there were far better players ahead of him. Brian Orakpo was one of them.

However I should acknowledge that most fanz don't operate on simple risk-reward, they're considering a whole bunch of other factors when they decide what the team needs and who they should draft in what round. Most of the posters here put offensive tackle at the number one need position. Personally, I would selected a pass rusher. When they signed Albert, I thought they might then go for a right tackle, but they went for a pass-rushing DE.

I guess they thought he was a better prospect than Oher.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 2, 2009 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Samson, I have another idea on that. It's a little depressing, though.

I think it's entirely possible that they are actively trying to evict JC17. For many reasons, not the least of which is this FO making it's own "mark on the team". So if you look at the behavior of the GOF (tip o' the blog to ZZ) through that prism, these decisions make all kinds of sense.

It's a win/win for them. If everything goes well, they get credit for making lemonade out of OLine Lemmons. If the offense tanks again, they get license to make the changes they were trying to make anyway. I include Head Coarch in that also, btw.

I'm not saying that's DEFINITELY it, but it explains the decisions RE the OLine & the draft.

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 3:19 PM | Report abuse

talent_evaluator
Maybe "downfall" was not a good choice of a word, but I do think loyalty to veterans is a weakness. As for the backups not being as good as the starters, they never will be if they don't get a chance to play. Offensive line play has a lot to do with reps at a position. Sometimes you have to put guys in based on their potential and let them make their mistakes because you know they will be better than your starters after they have had just a bit of playing time.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | July 2, 2009 3:19 PM | Report abuse

I think coaching--or lack thereof--the O-line up is a big deal.

I once argued for our O-line by saying Clinton Portis is CONSISTENLY putting up HOF numbers behind them. If Clinton is not a HOFamer, as many here believe, than that is even more a testament to our O-line, not to mention Betts produced 1000yds in what 10-12gms?

O-line haters postulated that run-blocking and pass-blocking are separate entities--enter Buges. He needs to coach up their pass-blocking, b/c God forbid Jason Campbell has anything to do with it..(Campbell's first pass attempt, he rolls outta a perfect pocket, sack Tuck, right???)(And we need to find a #2 WR)

Sorry, I'm not trying to make this about Campbell, but some QBs get sacked behind any line, i.e. Dave Carr, Patrick Ramsey, Leftwitch. Some QB's are mediocre behind GREAT O-lines, i.e. Vikings, Panthers, Titans(VY).

Hell even the video game ratings say we're the 8th ranked O-line unit. While I don't agree with that, I'd say our O-line (and QB) is overall average; CERTAINLY NOT BAD BY ANY MEASURE!

Injuries might happen. Injuries might not happen. I just know that If Campbell sucks this year, bloggers will blame the O-line and possibly WRs. If Campbell lights it up this year, bloggers will blame Campbell and possibly Zorn.

Uh oh, looks like a lose-lose situation with the O-line haters.

Posted by: Vicc | July 2, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

In terms of fundamentals and athleticism Heyer doesn't really have what a starter at either tackle position requires. That means he needs help, he can't be on an island by himself and take care of business. He has shown weak run blocking up to this point. But he definitely is a great find as a developing swing man you can throw in there when someone goes down.

Mike Williams has all the tools that Heyer lacks. He just needs to show that he can come back from a long layoff, and show dedication and consistency.

The above is also true for Rhinehart.

The real keys to this year then are Williams and Rhinehart. Factor in continued development by Heyer and maybe they can make a go in the NFC East. Certainly if M. Williams can do what he was originally drafted to do he could end up at left tackle with Samuels moving right to extend a career that is now suddenly threatened by injury that can come to an LT age 30+.

Posted by: periculum | July 2, 2009 3:52 PM | Report abuse

Umm - why would we BLAME Soup if he does well? We would CREDIT him, right? And I believe we'd credit the O Line as well, if his performance is based upon him having more time to find the open man.

And everyone loved the O Line until the bottom fell out. They did a fantastic job last year blockin' for CP. They never did much against the passrush, tho. And that's what we've been complaining about.

So - O Line needs to keep doin' what they been doin' and step it up against the passrush. Soup needs to find an open man. Moss/ARE/Receiver-to-be-named-later need to get they SJK open. And Zorn needs to not fall apart at the first real sign of adversity....

...Captain obvious hears his bus rounding the corner.

HAPPY & SAFE FOURTH OF JULY EVERYBODY!!

Posted by: DikShuttle | July 2, 2009 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Dik,

I corrected that in the next thread.

Posted by: Vicc | July 2, 2009 3:56 PM | Report abuse

Vicc,

You don't measure O-line success by the number of sacks on Campbell. You would measure it on the success (or lack thereof) of the running game, their ability to move the chains consistently, and their effectiveness inside the 20. In other words TDs on the ground.

This is a west coast offense. Limiting sacks and picking up blitzes will be important, but it really does involve short passes to set up the run plus play action.

Posted by: periculum | July 2, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

talent_evaluator
Maybe "downfall" was not a good choice of a word, but I do think loyalty to veterans is a weakness. As for the backups not being as good as the starters, they never will be if they don't get a chance to play. Offensive line play has a lot to do with reps at a position. Sometimes you have to put guys in based on their potential and let them make their mistakes because you know they will be better than your starters after they have had just a bit of playing time.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | July 2, 2009 3:19 PM |

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Not even Joe Bugel.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | July 2, 2009 4:57 PM | Report abuse

nice post cork.. dead on.. Its weird since Snyder knows his Redskins history and what happened when they drafted two OL guys in the 1st round in 81.. Grimm and May.. et al the Hogs..
You build from the lines, out. Good GM;s know this.
Maybe the inequity of 200 Mil to the Defense this year and zero to the Offense (Dockerty was waived) is Danny's way of taking the poison pill till 2010 when he can hire Shanahan.. who would want to form the Offense his way with all the Draft picks in tact. ummmm this may be giving Danny too much credit..
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


I look forward to the day (Bugel) retires and the Skins can upgrade the OL coach position. Not to diminish what the dude has done previous.

Posted by: LittleGreenBag | July 1, 2009 7:40 PM |

Bag--

You can't make chicken salad out of Chicken Shiite, and that's what has been provided to Bugel the last few years.

While Vinny panders to every wish the defense wants, and Dan insists on name "skill" players, the Oline is the MOST neglected position on the team.

Yet, the guy you look forward to being done with managed to put together a formidable Oline of oldies, retreds, bum-knees, and one tackle who pass blocks, one who run blocks and the team got off to a 6-2 start.

When the wheels fell off due to the old age and ongoing neglect afforded the Oline, sure enough it fell apart.

Have you seen any other Oline coach snap up Geissinger? Has Kendall caught on anywhere?

And it's more of the same this year. Retreds, fat guys and other team's problems. Meanwhile, they again pander to the defense, adding a 100 million dollar man, overpay for Hall and draft a DE and DB with their top two picks.

The trouble isn't the guy asked to coach up that bunch, it's the management which doesn't get him good players to coach up.

Sheesh.

Posted by: TheCork | July 2, 2009 1:31 PM

Posted by: SkinsneedaGM | July 2, 2009 6:22 PM | Report abuse

"Rinehart obviously disappointed in his rookie season and looked as though he may have been a complete miss. It was reported at the end of last season that during personnel reviews, Bugel and other coaches were very critical of Rinehart's ability, and that there would need to be major changes going into 2009 if he was expected to contribute in any type of role.

During OTAs, Bugel spoke as if those changes were occurring.

"He's a real, real good football player this year," Bugel said. "He's come back ready to go. He's about 309, 310 pounds, so I've been very pleased with him."

There are numerous 2nd and 3rd round draft picks that do not accomplish that much in their rookie seasons. Until the 2009 preseason games a more favorable time for
appraising Rinehart is reasonable. Expectations such as occur with 1st rounders, especially the top 5-10 offensive linemen picks is not reasonable. Sure there are exception, but that is not the general rule.

Posted by: fwroy | July 3, 2009 6:54 PM | Report abuse

yes fwroy it bothers me when PT speaks for all of us, saying WE are disappointed is Rinehart. Some of us have REASONABLE expectations and recognize the possibility of a mediocre player. Some fans think if a player isn't great out of the gate then he is a bust.........that's ridiculous.

PT also said recently that the fans weren't confident in Campbell, which pissed me off. HEY PAUL TENARIO STOP SAYING WE ARE DISAPPOINTED, IF YOU WANT TO SAY YOU ARE FINE, BUT DON'T SPEAK FOR US YOU PRICK

Posted by: pabrian2003 | July 4, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

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