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Hall, Skins in Preliminary Talks

The Washington Redskins have engaged in preliminary contract discussions with potential free agent corner DeAngelo Hall in hopes of signing him to a long-term contract, according to team and league sources. The team has expressed an interest in retaining Hall, according to sources, although the sides have yet to reach the stage at which they exchange proposals and financial details.

Hall, a Virginia native and Virginia Tech product, was signed to a one-year deal at midseason after being released by Oakland just months after signing a lucrative contract with the Raiders. Hall has been starting in recent weeks and leads the team with five interceptions, a key factor in his rise past corner Carlos Rogers, who regularly drops interceptions, on the depth chart.

Hall has often spoken publicly about his desire to stay with the Redskins, his hometown team, beyond this season, though sources close to the player said he is hardly unopposed to testing the free agent waters in March. The other starting corner, Shawn Springs, could be a salary cap casualty, while Fred Smoot is having a rough season and has slipped to fourth on the depth chart, making Hall more attractive.

The Redskins' defense, while ranked fourth overall in the NFL, has lacked for turnovers and explosive plays, elements that Hall provides. He has struggled with deep coverage at times, and has had run-ins with coaches and teammates at other stops, but has performed well for Washington and stayed away from trouble. (However, the fact that he is playing for a new deal, whether here or with another team, is not lost on those around him). Hall's focus and effort at practice have not always been stellar, according to team sources, though he has impressed coaches with his sure hands and skills.

If Hall signs an extension, that could cause further consternation for Rogers, whom the Redskins drafted ninth overall in 2005. Rogers is seeking an extension himself, with the current labor situation meaning that Rogers will likely only be a restricted free agent when his contract ends after next season, and not unrestricted. While he was the team's top cover corner for much of the season, he has not shown the big-play skills required to prevent quarterbacks from throwing his way, and given the team's other needs as well as the current economic climate, the Redskins might not be inclined to execute large contracts for two cornerbacks this offseason.

By Jason La Canfora  |  December 24, 2008; 8:04 AM ET
 
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Next: Alexander to IR; LB Signs

Comments

Greg,

For some reason everything has missed us, it's great to see all the tax money going out the window when the plow trucks are sitting on the side of the highway all night and never do anything.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:14 AM | Report abuse

Try to make the contract incentive based, make him earn that money on the field don't just give it to him.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:15 AM | Report abuse

resigning hall is important as rodgers has shown that he is still not a top caliper corner. he has regressed to the way that he has always been. poor coverage and no hands.

Posted by: rls1041 | December 24, 2008 8:18 AM | Report abuse

If Rogers doesn't like the Hall signing, maybe he should CATCH FOOTBALLS THROWN TO HIM!! Just sayin'...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 24, 2008 8:21 AM | Report abuse

good stuff, I've stated that I think that signing Hall should be a priority. Not to the tune that the Raiders signed him, but something reasonable.

Regarding Rogers, play better. Period. Don't get your draws in a bunch, just catch the ball, EVERY TIME. Do that, and you'll have nothing to worry about.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 8:24 AM | Report abuse

I hope they sign Hall. Butterfingers ain't never gonna change.

Posted by: ridgely1 | December 24, 2008 8:26 AM | Report abuse

Let's just figure out a way to get them both. Nothing wrong with having two excellent starting Cornerbacks with complimentary skills. How many of the DLine's (Jason Taylor's) sacks this season have come from extra time due to lock down coverage?

Posted by: mikeyvanilli | December 24, 2008 8:26 AM | Report abuse

Hopefully and this is going out on a very thin limb, Tryon can start pushing Rogers next year and we might not need to give him an extension.

I said hopefully so don't start bashing me, I don't think they should extend Rogers until he proves he can catch a football.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:27 AM | Report abuse

Rogers needs to take care of business. This year was a step, but he's had 3 years in which he wasn't all that great, so by my estimation, he owes the team 2 years. Play well next year, and this will work itself out. Keep dropping picks, and you can get to steppin...

What he needs to do is come back next year, stronger, faster, and even more dedicated than he was this year.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 8:30 AM | Report abuse

This is just the list I'm not saying we need to go after one of them.

Pos Pos
Rank Rating Name Type Yr Ht/Wt College 2008 Team Signed Team
CB NR Nnamdi Asomugha UFA 6 6-2/210 California Oakland
CB NR Chris Gamble UFA 5 6-1/200 Ohio State Carolina
CB NR Dunta Robinson UFA 5 5-10/184 South Carolina Houston
CB NR Deltha O'Neal UFA 9 5-11/194 California New England
CB NR Phillip Buchanon UFA 7 5-11/186 Miami (FL) Tampa Bay
CB NR Justin Miller UFA 4 -/- Clemson Oakland
CB NR Eric Green UFA 4 5-11/194 Virginia Tech Arizona
CB NR Jabari Greer UFA 5 5-11/175 Tennessee Buffalo
CB NR Bryant McFadden UFA 4 6-0/190 Florida State Pittsburgh
CB NR DeMarcus Faggins UFA 7 5-10/178 Kansas State Houston
CB NR Ricky Manning Jr. UFA 6 5-9/193 UCLA St. Louis
CB NR Ronald Bartell Jr. UFA 4 6-1/205 Central Michigan St. Louis
CB NR William James UFA 8 6-0/200 Western Illinois Jacksonville
CB NR Daven Holly UFA 4 5-10/185 Cincinnati Cleveland
CB NR Domonique Foxworth UFA 4 5-10/180 Maryland Denver
CB NR R.W. McQuarters UFA 11 5-10/195 Oklahoma State NY Giants
CB NR Lewis Sanders UFA 9 6-1/200 Maryland New England
CB NR Charles Gordon RFA 3 5-11/180 Kansas Minnesota
CB NR Chris Carr UFA 4 5-10/180 Boise State Tennessee
CB NR Reynaldo Hill UFA 4 5-11/180 Florida Tennessee
CB NR Ralph Brown UFA 9 5-10/185 Nebraska Arizona
CB NR Ahmad Carroll UFA 5 5-10/190 Arkansas NY Jets
CB NR Travis Daniels UFA 4 6-1/195 LSU Cleveland
CB NR Kevin Dockery RFA 3 5-8/188 Mississippi State NY Giants
CB NR Aaron Glenn UFA 15 5-9/183 Texas A&M New Orleans
CB NR Andre' Goodman UFA 7 5-10/185 South Carolina Miami
CB NR Corey Ivy UFA 8 5-9/188 Oklahoma Baltimore
CB NR Karl Paymah UFA 4 5-11/204 Washington State Denver
CB NR Keiwan Ratliff UFA 5 5-11/188 Florida Indianapolis
CB NR Benny Sapp UFA 5 5-10/190 Northern Iowa Minnesota
CB NR Scott Starks UFA 4 5-9/178 Wisconsin Jacksonville
CB NR Donald Strickland UFA 6 5-10/187 Colorado San Francisco
CB NR Stanley Wilson UFA 4 5-11/189 Stanford Detroit

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:30 AM | Report abuse

Sign Hall.

Find somebody to challenge Rocky Mac and his creaky knees.

Figure out a way to keep Jason Taylor. Adjust the scheme for him. Let him free lance.

Demetrius Evans is a starter from day 1 next year. A d-line featurin...

Evans
Haynesworth
Griffin
Taylor

...would get sacks.

The Skins' D really just needs some tweaking here and there. We can get by through a couple of more additions-- and two of them are already in house: Hall, Taylor.

We need a young, speedy Will-linebacker with cover skills. HB Blades should be given the chance to start as a Mike-backer.

Let Shawn Springs go (age, money, injury). Keep Mike Green (young, hungry, cheap).

Rogers is a third corner. Pay him accordingly.

This defense should rule next season.

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 24, 2008 8:31 AM | Report abuse

Greg,

Agreed Rogers has never been a shut down corner and was not this year either, he's played well but he has been a backup the last couple of games because of the lack of play making ability.

If he comes out next year and has a good year they will sign him if he doesn't they won't.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:35 AM | Report abuse

You guys are killing me with resign JT, he has one good game and most of you want to give 8 more mil to him. No thanks I would like to go younger and bigger on the end, I think Chris Wilson could of easly had 3.5 sacks if he played as much as JT.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:37 AM | Report abuse

moe, what do you do with Andre Carter in the scenario you listed above??

Flound, I'd say that Hall is probably behind Namandi, but ahead of Gamble, so that to me is winner/winner if he agrees to terms.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 8:38 AM | Report abuse

Reviews are coming in on Snyder's "Valkyrie:" http://gawker.com/5115605/tom-cruise-in-valkyrie-distractingly-bad

Posted by: Cindy Boren | December 24, 2008 8:38 AM | Report abuse

agreed on JT, for 8.5 million, I think the team could fill in Evans, and sign someone and be just as effective. If JT wants to come back for reduced money, then by all means, but not for 8.5.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 8:41 AM | Report abuse

Did anyone see the bowl game last night? That DE Hughes has q quick first step...wow. He's small for a DE, most likely he'll end being a rush LB in the 3-4 and end up with double digit sacks.

Posted by: TWISI | December 24, 2008 8:42 AM | Report abuse

I'm not impressed with Carter. Power running teams come right at him with a tight end and a fullback and blow him up.

I didn't want the Skins to bring in Taylor, but having given up a 2nd round pick for him, I say, screw it and get some value out of the guy.

Flounder,I agree about Jackson, Wilson, and maybe a healthy Buzbee being used next year as a monster rush linebacker like James Harrison is by the Stillers.

Posted by: MistaMoe | December 24, 2008 8:45 AM | Report abuse

Nothing wrong with having two excellent starting Cornerbacks with complimentary skills.

Complimentary skills =
"Nice route, TO"
"Wow, you sure are tall, Calvin"
"DeSean, you have hands just like mine"
"Tony, I'll bet you throw Jessica a nice tight spiral!"

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 8:45 AM | Report abuse

Have to agree with ris1041, Rogers weak coverage and "brick" hands certainly are real issues, although his brick hands may not be coachable/correctible. But his on-the-field-antics leave a lot to be desired. Early in the season Rogers would make a 'routine play' and then "strut and careen" around the field like he was "all-world" and then be out of position or play soft on the very next play. If I, a novice layman, can see this on film, why can't his coaches, fellow players (and Rogers himself) see his weakness? Why can't his attitude and coverage skills be coached and corrected? If Rogers can't be coached, then trade him or move him down on the depth chart. As for Hall, lock him up if it can done reasonably.

Posted by: whitb | December 24, 2008 8:47 AM | Report abuse

dag, Rogers took big steps this year, and for most of the season he was a top corner in the league.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 8:49 AM | Report abuse

No thanks I would like to go younger and bigger on the end, I think Chris Wilson could of easly had 3.5 sacks if he played as much as JT.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:37 AM

Pretty sure Wilson did play as much as JT last year and had 4 sacks. Stinkin' Vinny...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 24, 2008 8:49 AM | Report abuse

Flounder -
Chris Gamble already resigned with the Panthers... please find another, up to date website to copy from...

Sorry to burst everyone else's bubble. There is no fiscal way for the Redskins to sign both Haynesworth and Hall. It would be great, but it's not going to happen...

Posted by: nagoose | December 24, 2008 8:55 AM | Report abuse

Rogers has been a stud all year. I don't know where the weak coverage comes in to play. He's only been beaten for 2 TD's. He just can't catch.

If I were the team, I'd have his eyes checked. It could be something like depth perception or near-sighteness.

Posted by: Original_etrod | December 24, 2008 8:56 AM | Report abuse

Too bad we didn't go after Kris Jenkins in the off season.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 8:57 AM | Report abuse

BeanTown,

Agree, a lot of people, including jLAC were all over Rodgers sak the earlier part of the year saying he was playin pro-bowl worthy, which was understandable. But then he came back down to earth.

Posted by: REDneckSKINhead | December 24, 2008 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Jim Zorn Palin, if you were born to Sarah Palin, your name would be:

Chalk Revelations Palin
-------------------------
Palin Baby Name generator
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | December 24, 2008 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Why can't we just trade down for more picks and find us some big stud defensive lineman- diamond in the rough.
Oh yeah, we would have to have someone who can effectively evaluate talent.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 8:59 AM | Report abuse

nagoose, if the team parts ways with Taylor, Springs, and Washington, it will free up nearly 20 million in cap space.

tyler, couple things, Jenkins hates this team, its well documented, and he was considered a 'risk' considering that he was frequently overweight, and was also considered lazy...

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:00 AM | Report abuse

There were mentions of Hall having run-ins with teammates and coaches. Can anyone expound as this is the first I am hearing of this?

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:02 AM | Report abuse

nagoose,

Never say never, this team is great at doing what your saying can't be done.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:02 AM | Report abuse

Bean, I had no idea he hated us!? Check this out though: What big time NFL player is not a risk in one way or another?

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:04 AM | Report abuse

There were mentions of Hall having run-ins with teammates and coaches. Can anyone expound as this is the first I am hearing of this?

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:02 AM |

He is talking about previous teams not the Skins.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:04 AM | Report abuse

tyler, that was in Atlanta, but not sure if he had any issues in Oakland...

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:04 AM | Report abuse

Word..that's how y'all feel. Just going to ignore my post on Mr. Hughes pass rusher extraordinaire. That's cool.

Posted by: TWISI | December 24, 2008 9:10 AM | Report abuse

Word..that's how y'all feel. Just going to ignore my post on Mr. Hughes pass rusher extraordinaire. That's cool.

Posted by: TWISI | December 24, 2008 9:10 AM |

Twisi,

Not ignoring just did not see the game, and it doesn't sound like he would fit the Skins defense.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:12 AM | Report abuse

D. Hall was a cancer at VA TECH... he had all american talent but his last year the "Hokies" underachieved BIG TIME and the coaches hinted after the season that the reason team chemistry was bad was Hall.

In Hotlanta he was also a bad egg... bashed Bobby Patrino (turned out to be correct on that).. but had attitude issued w/ refs, other players, coaches. Oakland was a failed experiment as well but that seems to be the case always for the Raiders.


** I'm not a Tech fan so have disliked D Hall for a long time..BUT, If he's decided to grow up than he'd be a great pick up! I think our coaches can help him keep from getting burnt deep.. but he has the ball skills that cannot be coached. Just a gamble as to weather he's playing nice now for a new contract... or has learned his lesson.

As always.. I'm oldschool and believe a football coach should be revered by his players... this would prevent diva's like hall/ portis from showing their ass's .. but I guess that's not modern football.

( Tom Coughlin, Cower, Belecheck, Parcells, are all no nonsece, old school, hard ass coaches and they do pretty well ).

Posted by: cwprice2 | December 24, 2008 9:13 AM | Report abuse

twis, didn't watch the game, but a small defensive end, best suited for a 3-4 defense, what do you want to talk about?? The Redskins are full up of small defensive ends, and don't run a 3-4....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:13 AM | Report abuse

Ok, I've heard of those I misunderstood and thought it had happened with the Skins. Winning cures all ills though don't you think? If he stays here and we continue to be mediocre he may show those colors again, but if we win right and win big, it could be a moot point.
On another note: I was really impressed with Zorn's planning and demeanor early this season and he seemed like a player's coach but then the losing started and he refused to accept that he needed to adjust his scheme and to stop publicly ragging on his players. First year blunders? Maybe. But he should be smarter than that from all his experience and years in the league. In my head I hope he is the right man, and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and an extended chance, but my gut says he should have been a coordinator first. I could be wrong and I hope I am because I am sick of my beloved team being ordinary.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:13 AM | Report abuse

Does Hall really have 5 interceptions?-

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 9:15 AM | Report abuse

3 with Oak, and 2 with the Redskins.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:17 AM | Report abuse

Earlier this month Corey Webster signed an extension w/ Giants to the tune of 5 years/43 mill/20 mill guaranteed.

Any extension for D.Hall to make him a No.1 CB is going to have to be in that ballpark.

...of course, knowing Snerrato they will probably guarantee the whole thing right off the bat.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:18 AM | Report abuse

Gweez, I think that is total for the year and not just w/ Skins.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

p1, I was surprised by the amount of that contract. Webster wasn't really on my radar, is he that good??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

( Tom Coughlin, Cower, Belecheck, Parcells, are all no nonsece, old school, hard ass coaches and they do pretty well ).

Posted by: cwprice2 | December 24, 2008 9:13 AM | Report abuse

They get respect b/c they've won championships, not b/c they are hardcore. Before Coughlin won the SB, he was getting thrown under the bus by Tiki Barber and the lockerroom hated him. They were talking "hot seat". Same with Belichik, until Tom Brady rode in and saved the man's career.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:21 AM | Report abuse

I agree with whoever posted to try to sign Hall to an incentive laden deal without huge guaranteed $$.
Vinny is like a fat girl who puts out too much because she never knows when she will get it again. Learn to play hardball and wheel and deal or bring in someone who can.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:22 AM | Report abuse

Here are my estimations:
FA no resigns:
Pete Kendell
Demetric Evans
Shaun Suisham
Jason Fabini
Reed Doughty
Mike Green
Alfred Fincher
Ryan Boschetti

FA resigs:
DeAngelo Hall (for 5-7M/per)
Khary Campbell (for .9-1M/per)
Anthony Montgomery (for .5-.75M/per)
Ethan Albright (for .5-.6M/per)
Kedric Golston (for .5-.75M/per)
Justin Geisinger (for .5-.6M/per)

'09 Cuts Salary Penalty
Jason Taylor 8.5M ---
Shawn Springs 8.483M 2.483M
Marcus Washington 6.52M 2.02M
James Thrash .945M .1
Todd Yoder .887M .117
Erasmus James (already done) 1.003M ---
Total 26.338 4.72
Freed Cap = 21.618M
Original Estimated Cap = 118.929M
Cap after Cuts = 97.311M
FA signing of decent kicker (Bironas or Nugent) = 2-3M/per
Cap after Redskin FA resigns Best Case = 107.211M
Cap after Redskin FA regign Worst Case = 111.011M
Dead Cap for '09 = 6.716M
Redskin Cap BC = 113.927M
Redskin Cap WC = 117.727M
Rookie Salary Cap Space = 5M
Redskin Cap = 118.927M - 122.727M
9 Additional Roster Spots * .487(minimum)= 4.383M
Full Redskin Roster = 123.31 - 127.11
Estimated Projected '09 Salary Cap = 123M-124M

Even with the necessary moves that everyone recognizes, we are still bumping against the salary cap for '09. I believe that Haynesworth will sign for more than what I estimate Hall will sign... I just don't see it happening. Like I said, it would be great to have our cake and eat it too, but it's not practical.

My estimation of the salary cap is based on the percentage it increased last year, JLC thinks it might be less... it might even be less than that based on the economy tanking... we'll see...


Posted by: nagoose | December 24, 2008 9:23 AM | Report abuse

p1, I was surprised by the amount of that contract. Webster wasn't really on my radar, is he that good??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:20 AM | Report abuse

I haven't seen enough G-Men games to really know. But that defense is obviously pretty good, and he is their No.1 corner. I think the overall market for top CBs is just a little ridiculous...kinda' like starting pitching.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:24 AM | Report abuse

Looks like it might be a while before Plax plays again, if at all...

"Authorities searched the New Jersey home of Plaxico Burress last night and found two guns and the clothes the Giants wide receiver was wearing when he accidentally shot himself in the leg last month, according to multiple reports.

Sources cited in those reports said detectives from the NYPD, officers from the Totowa, N.J., Police Department and investigators from the Manhattan district attorney's office discovered at least two weapons -- a 9-mm gun and a loaded rifle -- along with ammunition and the clothes from the Nov. 29 incident at the Latin Quarter nightclub in Manhattan. Sources also said that no permits for the weapons were found"

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:24 AM | Report abuse

"Hank, I saw your girlfriend last night. And last Tuesday. And two more times Thursday night."

C'mon, this could be comedy gold!

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 9:24 AM | Report abuse

pfunk has a valid point but lassiez-faire might work in economics but not in the NFL. Thats why The Tuna has always been so successful, honor, discipline and accountability.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:25 AM | Report abuse

Earlier this month Corey Webster signed an extension w/ Giants to the tune of 5 years/43 mill/20 mill guaranteed.

Any extension for D.Hall to make him a No.1 CB is going to have to be in that ballpark.

...of course, knowing Snerrato they will probably guarantee the whole thing right off the bat.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:18 AM |

P1,

I don't think Hall is as coveted by other teams as you think, a lot of teams will not sign him because of his past.

I don't think the skins need to make that kind of offer.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:25 AM | Report abuse

I agree with whoever posted to try to sign Hall to an incentive laden deal without huge guaranteed $$.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:22 AM | Report abuse

No way that goes down. D.Hall is gonna demand guaranteed $ for a #1 CB. It's a premium position - remember how many teams wanted to take a look at him after the Oakland release? We got the inside track (i'm sure) b/c (1) we have a history of paying guys big bucks and (2) he's "local". He's played well since he got here and they are gonna demand market value. Skins don't have much leverage at this point for an incentive-laden contract.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:28 AM | Report abuse

daggar what the hell is that from?

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:28 AM | Report abuse

Greg,

Plax. is an idiot who can't be happy making millions of dollars in the NFL.

Hire a body guard you moron, and install a state of the art security system.

Oh and pay your insurance so you don't get sued for hitting someone.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:30 AM | Report abuse

"Looks like it might be a while before Plax plays again, if at all..."

From what I've heard PLAX had a Glock 22 (double action only) in his SWEAT PANTS !?!?! These type of guns, for those that don't know (weren't handguns outlawed in DC unti recently?) don't have external safteys... so once there is a round in the chamber it is live.

PRETTY DAMN STUPID to carry this type of gun with a bullit in the chamber at all.. .. being carried loose in sweat pants even worse.. accident waiting to happen... glad he only hurt himself.

Posted by: cwprice2 | December 24, 2008 9:30 AM | Report abuse

It's the Complimentary skills of our DBs.

"Plaxico, nice shooting!"

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 9:31 AM | Report abuse

p1funk, I have to agree with Flounder. Hall is good but he is not the shut down corner that can demand big guaranteed $$. He would do well here but with several other pressing needs it would be irresponsible to overpay Hall at the expense of the rest of the team.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:32 AM | Report abuse

I think this is a good move. Hall has proven he can catch the ball and plays aggresive, although I agree with the point that he is playing for a contract. I don't think you reward Rogers with a big deal yet. He has dropped many interceptions that could have been game-changers.

No problem with rewarding the player with the greatest output.

Whatever you do, don't fall into that "character players" crap. Hall may be a bit of a diva but I want ball players.

Posted by: rickyroge | December 24, 2008 9:32 AM | Report abuse

D.Hall has been a model citizen since he got here, and he has made plays. He's already ascended to the top CB spot. His agent is going to bring copies of the contracts of Corey Webster and Asante Samuel and ask for that money. His agent is going to remind Vinny that there were about 5 other teams ready to look at D.Hall when they came on board and say they have no problem shopping around a bit.

The only card Vinny may have to play is to say that we also like Carlos Rogers as a number 1 and we aren't so desperate, and perhaps use Rogers to drive down the price a bit.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:34 AM | Report abuse

This whole Carlos and Hall thing is silly. Sign them both I say. Carlos is a better run stopper and covering the deep ball.

Hall gambles but makes big plays and seems to cover underneath stuff better.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 9:35 AM | Report abuse

Ricky,

I agree as DOC Walker always says character is great, but in football sometimes you need some thugs.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:35 AM | Report abuse

It's not about D.Hall's ACTUAL value, it is about his MARKET value; and the fact that NFL teams are notorious for overpaying at a premium position like CB. This is what gives D.Hall the leverage.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:36 AM | Report abuse

"Chad, just love the new last name. Or names. whatever. But shouldn't it be 'ochenta y cinco'?"

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 9:37 AM | Report abuse

Zorn has to be kicking himself because he has the #4 (I think I read) overall defense in the league and he could not squeeze points out of his anemic offense.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:38 AM | Report abuse

It only takes one team to give Hall a big deal. He got 7 years 70 mill from Oakland last year. There is no way he is going to sign an incentive type deal and there is no doubt he will jump ship for the money.

Corey Webster is a solid CB. He benefits from the front 4 he plays with but that contract seems fairly reasonable given what dudes like Nate Clements and Asante Samuel have gotten the last 2 years.

Posted by: JasonLaTempleton | December 24, 2008 9:40 AM | Report abuse

the DOC is right. If everyone was a thug like Mike Sellers but had his demeanor and level-headedness as well we'd be ok.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:40 AM | Report abuse

Yeah right... that's been the problem with this team for the last what.. 5 years. Above average D... below adverage O.

I'm so afraid that once the O gets consistent ( I've even settle for scoring 20 points every other game..) the D will have regressed... can't keep a top 10 D every year or can we ?

Posted by: cwprice2 | December 24, 2008 9:41 AM | Report abuse

From PFT,

I still take Snyder over Jones.

WADE REGRETS USING BARBER
Posted by Mike Florio on December 24, 2008, 8:54 a.m. EST
It’s a good thing that Cowboys owner Jerry Jones currently is inclined (reportedly) to keep Wade Phillips as head coach of the team. Because if Jones were assessing whether Wade should go, the coach’s comments from Tuesday could be used against him.

Specifically, Phillips admitted that he should not have used running back Marion Barber over the past two weeks.

“A dislocation, it can get well,” Phillips said, according to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. “Maybe we shouldn’t have played him at all and maybe he’d be well now.”

But, then again, Jones himself was clamoring for Barber to play.

But, then again, Phillips is the head coach, supposedly, and he should have tried to persuade Jones that the running game was in capable hands with Tashard Choice.

Barber had eight carries for two yards and two receptions for 24 against the Giants, and two carries for zero yards and one reception for seven yards against the Ravens.

The Cowboys play the Eagles on Sunday at Philadelphia. If Dallas wins, they’ll make the playoffs.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:42 AM | Report abuse

This blog has become my favorite waste of time.

nagoose -- Awesome breakdown! Do you think Vinny knows this?

Guys, to me the defense has not had a DE who can beat a tackle since Charles Mann, and has not had a great pass-rushing DE since "Mr. D" Dexter Manley. I guess the NFL is really sophisticated these days, but I'd like to see better scheming to get a free guy after the QB. Fletcher and Horton seem to have the knack for finding an open route. Rocky does pretty well at times.

But the D-line is not stunting/twisting to get a guy loose, and a lot of times the blitz is picked up. The Redskins need to hire somebody who can break down a blocking scheme and create havoc, like PIT and BAL do.

I'm just sayin...

Posted by: dpc2003 | December 24, 2008 9:42 AM | Report abuse

P1,

I don't think Hall is as coveted by other teams as you think, a lot of teams will not sign him because of his past.

I don't think the skins need to make that kind of offer.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:25 AM

Not true. Prior to signing with Oakland, Hall was pursued by the Redskins, Patriots, Giants and Cowboys (that was immediately following his issues in Atlanta). The Ravens reportedly talked to his agent after he was released. His work here has further showcased his ball skills. There will be a market for what he brings to the table and an incentive laden deal will not get it done. If PacMan could find a job, Hall will have no problem. Skills trump bad behavior.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | December 24, 2008 9:43 AM | Report abuse

flound, the guy gets arrested, after shooting himself, and STILL isn't bright enough to get the guns in his house either registered, or get them 'gone'. That right there is someone who should NEVER, EVER reproduce, because that DNA need to be removed from the gene pool.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:43 AM | Report abuse

Look. If we can sign him great, I just think it would be irresponsible to give him a huge deal and be strapped for cash to sign quality O and D Lineman.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:43 AM | Report abuse

Mr. Sellers has been a great reclamation project for the skins, but you don't need to dig too deep into his past to see trouble.

I thought that, in the end, the reason why Rogers missed the one start was because he had some sort of ankle problem? Not enough to deactivate him, but they limited his snaps? Or is that the eggnog talking?

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 9:43 AM | Report abuse

Corey Webster - 43 mill/20 guaranteed
Asante Samuel - 57 mill/ 20 guaranteed
Nate Clements - 80 mill/22 guaranteed
Chris Gamble - 6 year/53 mill/ guaranteed $ not disclosed

These are the contracts for some of the number 1 CBs in the league. This is what sets the market for negotiations. The Nate Clements contract is way out there, but I can't see D.Hall accepting any contract that doesn't have at least 20mill guaranteed...if he does, he should fire his agent.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:44 AM | Report abuse

nagoose, Great info about the cap!
Do you have any idea how much of a cap hit we would take to cut Smoot, Jansen and Griffin? I would love to be able to unload those guys in addition to Springs, Washington and Taylor.
Also, do you think that we have anyone who we could possibly use as trade bait to get a 2nd or 3rd round pick? That 2nd rounder for Taylor is killing me right now!

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 9:46 AM | Report abuse

dcp 2003- You are the man! I couldn't have said it better. Mann and Manley, ooooooo, I'm getting chills. That combo was like a sore d*ck, hard to beat.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:48 AM | Report abuse

check that...Chris Gamble's contract has about 23mill in guarantees.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:48 AM | Report abuse

nagoose, Great info about the cap!
Do you have any idea how much of a cap hit we would take to cut Smoot, Jansen and Griffin? I would love to be able to unload those guys in addition to Springs, Washington and Taylor.
Also, do you think that we have anyone who we could possibly use as trade bait to get a 2nd or 3rd round pick? That 2nd rounder for Taylor is killing me right now!

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 9:46 AM |

Why do I bother, I've posted all that 20 times over the last week.

This site will give you all the information you need.

And no we have no one we can trade for a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Anyone of value on our team has to big of a cap hit to be traded or cut.

http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:49 AM | Report abuse

I would hate to see Griff go because he has been the only real run stuffer we've had recently. He is no Dave Butz but he has done well for us.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:50 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: CindyBoren | December 24, 2008 9:51 AM | Report abuse

Rogers has been THE #1 corner on this team this season. The #1 corner on a team that is 4th in yards per game, 4th in points per game, and has no discernible pass rush. Hall took over Rogers' "starting" spot, but not really, because we had essentially moved to the Springs experiment at safety last game with Hall/Rogers/Landry/Springs as the 4 DBs.

It would be a massive mistake to let Rogers go. Everybody gets wowed by INTs and big plays, but he takes care of business game-in and game-out, and is arguably the second biggest reason for this defenses stellar performance this season (behind Fletcher).

Letting Carlos Rogers go would be akin to Oakland letting DHall go. Only instead of trying to cut down a $70 million salary, we'd be letting him leave with no true reason other than calling him "stonehands". It would be right up there with the other unmentionable names that everybody freaks out when they see typed on this blog.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 9:51 AM | Report abuse

flound, you don't think we could trade Betts for a second rounder?? lol......

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:52 AM | Report abuse

Flounder21, Take it easy, I just joined this comment section a day or so ago. But, I appreciate the link. Merry Christmas!

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 9:52 AM | Report abuse

psp, Rogers is under contract till next year, so nothing to worry about there...the Redskins have the upper hand in that deal...

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:54 AM | Report abuse

This is from an earlier JLC post,

Starting with the aging free agent class of 2004 alone, the Skins could create $14.7 million in space by parting with Shawn Springs ($6 million in 2009 cap savings), Marcus Washington ($4.5 million in cap savings) and Cornelius Griffin ($4.2 million in savings).

(Note on the corners: Springs's relationship with ownership/management has been strained, but he could end up back here because of his ability to play safety, especially if these defensive coaches are retained. His health issues are a big concern, but I don't believe it's an automatic slam dunk that he's cut. It's also by no means certain that DeAngelo Hall is going to re-sign here. In fact, I'm hearing that press-man coverage, coupled with no pass rush and just a single high safety, isn't exactly a siren song to him. Of course, if the Skins show him the money those concerns could fade fast. Carlos Rogers could make a push for a new contract, with the potential to be stuck as a restricted, and not unrestricted, free agent after 2009 because of the issues with the collective bargaining agreement. But the Skins don't have to do anything with him, either.)

Back to the numbers...

Defensive end Jason Taylor, a bust this season and someone who was contemplating retirement last offseason, should be jettisoned, too. That would save $8.5 million in space. If he wants to return for a veteran minimum-type deal, that would be great, but the team shouldn't commit $8.5 million or that kind of cash to a 35-year old who has been breaking down and not threatening any passers.

So we're up to a possible $23 million in cap savings, assuming they do all of the above. For a team that should be focusing on young players and draft picks (with the few selections they have left), that's more than ample room to make some moves.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:54 AM | Report abuse

I love Griffin, but he is always hurt. It is just tough to see him, Springs and Washington on the sidelines all of the time. That is alot of cap space in street clothes.

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 9:55 AM | Report abuse

Well, Merry Christmas all. I hope Santa brings you all you wanted and I hope he can release Vinny's firmly stuck lips from Snyder's behind and bring us a real GM. All I want for Christmas is a Superbowl victory next year.

Posted by: Tyler2Durden | December 24, 2008 9:56 AM | Report abuse

"These are the contracts for some of the number 1 CBs in the league. This is what sets the market for negotiations. The Nate Clements contract is way out there, but I can't see D.Hall accepting any contract that doesn't have at least 20mill guaranteed...if he does, he should fire his agent.

Posted by: p1funk"

Hall will easily garner those numbers. Not Nate Clements numbers, but damn close to the Asante contract. He's a big-time player, and absolutely expects to be paid like it.

If he's not signed by the Redskins, my #1 guess as to where he goes... New England.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 9:56 AM | Report abuse

NC,

No worries, there are some people on here that ask the same bone headed question everyday. Didn't mean to take my frustration out on you.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 9:57 AM | Report abuse

Man, Plaxico Burress = Epic Dumb

Posted by: Predator48 | December 24, 2008 9:58 AM | Report abuse

nagoose, Great info about the cap!
Do you have any idea how much of a cap hit we would take to cut Smoot, Jansen and Griffin? I would love to be able to unload those guys in addition to Springs, Washington and Taylor.
Also, do you think that we have anyone who we could possibly use as trade bait to get a 2nd or 3rd round pick? That 2nd rounder for Taylor is killing me right now!

Posted by: NCMatt1 |


I agree with you in principle about Jansen. I think that Smoot has played fairly well in certain situations. I believe that Griffin is a leader on defense and is probably one of the key reasons we've ranked 4th in Defense this year.

Here are the numbers for the three players you requested:

Jansen - 3.413 Salary and 6.188 Cap Hit
Smoot - 4.15 Salary and 4.2 Cap Hit
Griffin - 6.166 Salary and 2.549 Cap Hit

If we keep Griffin until 2010, we'll save over 5M to cut him. Smoot we'd save about 2.5M and Jansen would save about 2M.

As for the pick, I'm not 100% sure. My thought, and I'm sure it would be unpopular here, is to trade Jason Campbell to Detroit for Dallas' 1st round pick and Detroit's 3rd rounder.

I think Jason Campbell is definitely an NFL quality QB, but he is not utilized well in the Redskin WCO under Zorn. If he could reap us those picks, I'd trade him in an instant, if he could get us Detroit's 2nd and 3rd, I'd think about it, but probably would do it as well...

I actually think that Detroit would do well by this trade, in that they wouldn't have to have a question mark under QB, and Campbell has the arm to get Calvin Johnson the ball deep... they'd probably get at least a few wins in '09, and they can use the top pick to get the best player available in the draft...

We'd be forced to take a QB in this draft, but we could either do that with the Dallas 1st rounder or Detroit 2nd rounder... I think there will be a lot of QBs to choose from this year because of the uncertainty with the new CBA... I feel that there will be a rookie wage scale implemented in 2010. So there will be a lot of incentive for underclassmen like Bradford and McCoy (I think he'll change his mind about returning).

Posted by: nagoose | December 24, 2008 9:59 AM | Report abuse

Remember when Mr. D promised to "ring
Joe Montana's clock?"

And then knocked Danny White out of the 82 NFC championship game w/ a concussion? I can still see Dexter... it was an inside twist, he came free and ran right through Danny White. When Manley hit him both arms were sticking straight out past White as he was de-cleated (see below).

Later they showed Danny on the sidelines, had no idea where he was and tears were running down his face as the Redskins tore up the hated Cowboys.

Here is what a pass-rushing DE looks like...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-czgd-ZgI

Posted by: dpc2003 | December 24, 2008 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Letting Carlos Rogers go would be akin to Oakland letting DHall go. Only instead of trying to cut down a $70 million salary, we'd be letting him leave with no true reason other than calling him "stonehands". It would be right up there with the other unmentionable names that everybody freaks out when they see typed on this blog.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 9:51 AM | Report abuse

Obviously the ideal situation would be to lock up Hall and Rogers long-term. But let's be serious; Carlos Rogers has played at the level of a #1 CB for about 7 games of his career. He's tailed off this season and has been passed on the depth chart. Even at his peak, he was still dropping INTs. D.Hall has been beat in coverage about as much as Rogers has over these last 5 games, so that's a wash. D.Hall, however, has shown that he will punish a QB for mistakes; and he's shown he can play at a ProBowl level in this league for a whole season (not just 6-7 games). Breaking up a pass is nice, but teams need turnovers to win. Period. Turnover ratio is one of the top telling stats for victories in the NFL.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 10:00 AM | Report abuse

I think Shawn Springs and/or Fred Smooooot will take a pay cut to stay.

I can see Springs new role on the team to be 3rd CB/3rd Safety. That would be a nice role.

You can also extend him an put some voidable years in there just make it through the last CAP year.

This dosen't have to be Springs last year, but it could def be Smoooot's last.......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:01 AM | Report abuse

psp, if NE wouldn't give Assante that kind of money, why would they give it to Hall?? Thats not their way of doing business at all. They pulled Deltha O'Neil and Fernando Bryant off the scrap heap instead of paying Assante, bringing in Hall would admitting they made a mistake...

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:01 AM | Report abuse

flound, the guy gets arrested, after shooting himself, and STILL isn't bright enough to get the guns in his house either registered, or get them 'gone'. That right there is someone who should NEVER, EVER reproduce, because that DNA need to be removed from the gene pool.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:43 AM | Report abuse

How about making millions of dollars a year but letting your car insurance expire then running into a car a few days afterwards.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:02 AM | Report abuse

psp, if NE wouldn't give Assante that kind of money, why would they give it to Hall?? Thats not their way of doing business at all. They pulled Deltha O'Neil and Fernando Bryant off the scrap heap instead of paying Assante, bringing in Hall would admitting they made a mistake...

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:01 AM | Report abuse

I think NE figured that they could claim Hall as a reclamation project in the mold of Randy Moss and Corey Dillon - talented, troubled players on dysfunctional teams who get wooed into the championship pipeline of the Pats; the prospect of winning overcomes the demand for ridiculous $$; you do your job, get paid a decent amount (not top $$), listen Bill Belichikc at all times, and go down in history as a winner.

At this point, I suspect that NE missed their window w/D.Hall, b/c the reclamation projects only work if they can snatch a player when they are most down and out. At this point Hall is looking to get paid.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 10:06 AM | Report abuse

You guys are killing me with resign JT, he has one good game and most of you want to give 8 more mil to him. No thanks I would like to go younger and bigger on the end, I think Chris Wilson could of easly had 3.5 sacks if he played as much as JT.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:37 AM

Did you see how they was playing him the 1st 8-9 games of the season in which he played? They tried to get him to conform to the 4-3.

The last 3 games, they have been more creative with using him.

I say he either takes a pay cut or just sign him to an extension the would push his CAP # down in 2009.......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Nagoose,

The trading JC to Detroit for Dalla's number 1 was a joke right, Why do you think any team would trade a number one draft pick for JC.

Detroit's front office is stupid but not that stupid.

I'm not saying JC is bad but he is not worth a first round pick.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:07 AM | Report abuse

nagoose, Even though I am a Jason Campbell fan, I agree with your 1st scenario. If we could get Dallas' 1st rounder with Detriot's 3rd, that would be hard to turn down. Like I have mentioned on here before, Campbell is a good QB, but in my opinion, will never make the Pro Bowl. If we could pick up a good QB in the 1st round and get him an OT with the other 1st rounder, I would be all for it. In addition, Detriot's 3rd rounder should, essentially be a starting caliber talent. But, then again, we will have Vinnie making the picks! So, we might be better to keep Campbell.

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 10:07 AM | Report abuse

I say he either takes a pay cut or just sign him to an extension the would push his CAP # down in 2009.......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:06 AM |

Why would you sign a 35 year old to a longer contract, if he wants to play here it should be for no more the 2mil for one season.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:09 AM | Report abuse

"Turnover ratio is one of the top telling stats for victories in the NFL.

Posted by: p1funk"

The top 10 for INTs by a defense this season includes: Cleveland Browns (#2), Green Bay Packers (#5), New Orleans Saints (#9, tied), and Oakland Raiders (#9, tied).

The top 10 in pts allowed per game:

Titans, Pitt, Balt, Wash, NYG, PHI, TB, ATL, CAR, IND

There is not one team below .500 in the top 10 pts allowed per game. Obviously turnovers are something you want, but FAR more telling is the defense's ppg.

And I'm not saying I don't want DHall. I'm saying that Carlos Rogers has just as much of an impact on this defense as Hall, and he needs to be treated as such, whether this offseason, or in the near future.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:12 AM | Report abuse

flound, it must be a Festivus Miracle. We're trading the ghost of Leigh Torrence for a couple of 1st rounders....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:12 AM | Report abuse

You guys are killing me with resign JT, he has one good game and most of you want to give 8 more mil to him. No thanks I would like to go younger and bigger on the end, I think Chris Wilson could of easly had 3.5 sacks if he played as much as JT.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 8:37 AM

Gotta agree with Flound on this one.

We need an honest-to-God rebuilding year where we are getting all of our young talent on the field to see what we have.

What "rebuilding" team has $8 million over-30-year-olds running around on defense? This is why Taylor, Springs and Griff have to go. Under other circumstances they might be worth it - like if we were genuinely close to a SB and needed that extra veteran push to take us over the top. Then you can justify overpaying 30-year old vets a little bit.

This team has no business doing anything like that.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Did you see how they was playing him the 1st 8-9 games of the season in which he played? They tried to get him to conform to the 4-3.

The last 3 games, they have been more creative with using him.

I say he either takes a pay cut or just sign him to an extension the would push his CAP # down in 2009.......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Uhh, who said he wants to play after next year? I think he only agreed to play two years because that got him out of Miami. I don't think he wants to play next year but publicly committed to doing so, which is why he made the comments about not being worth the 8 mill/year.

I took that as his way of saying, I aint taking a pay cut if you want to pay me 8 milly a year I'll play because I said I would but I think he'd love to be cut.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Flounder -
Just a few years ago, Houston traded 2 2nd round picks to Altanta for Matt Shaubb... a farily unproven, and injury prone QB. That is the market that I refer to.

Detroit would get a starting quality QB fairly cheap (for roughly 1.8M), if Campbell does well, they can resign him, if not they don't have to do anything.

How much would you estimate that Dallas' 1st round pick would cost Detroit to sign? My guess is much more, and he would be a big question mark; at least Campbell has proven himself.

I'm not saying that we must trade Campbell, I've seen a lot of improvement the last couple of years, I was just answering the question that was asked... who would I trade for a 2nd and 3rd rounder... it's a fair trade for a 2nd and 3rd, I'd try for a 1st and 3rd...

Posted by: nagoose | December 24, 2008 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Earlier this month Corey Webster signed an extension w/ Giants to the tune of 5 years/43 mill/20 mill guaranteed.

Any extension for D.Hall to make him a No.1 CB is going to have to be in that ballpark.

...of course, knowing Snerrato they will probably guarantee the whole thing right off the bat.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 9:18 AM

I would say Snyder is going to have Hall and his Agent consider that $8 Mil he got for playing one season.

The #s will still be high, but maybe not as high by $2-4 Mil because of the way DHall got cut and paid nicely for 8 games......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:14 AM | Report abuse

"current economic climate, the *Redskins* might not be inclined to execute large contracts" - JLC

Except that the economic model for sports does not follow the economic model for the country. Try *Yankees* in that statement and read it to see if it still holds

Posted by: NFeKPo | December 24, 2008 10:14 AM | Report abuse

psps23,

I would like to keep Rogers, when the time comes, but I would not pay him #1 corner money. The fact of the matter is that he is a good #2 corner. He does not have the speed or ball skills to be constanty matched up with a #1 receiver. He is a hard worker and a good tackler, but just does not have the God given skills.

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 10:16 AM | Report abuse

"I think NE figured that they could claim Hall as a reclamation project in the mold of Randy Moss and Corey Dillon - talented, troubled players on dysfunctional teams who get wooed into the championship pipeline of the Pats; the prospect of winning overcomes the demand for ridiculous $$; you do your job, get paid a decent amount (not top $$), listen Bill Belichikc at all times, and go down in history as a winner.

Posted by: p1funk"

Precisely. And not only that, but they have a very distinct way of identifying who works in their system, and who's worth it for the future.

Example: Deion Branch, a very highly touted player and borderline star was traded away, while they traded a 2nd round pick for a complete unknown and no-name in Wes Welker.

They also bring in guys like Roosevelt Colvin and Adalius Thomas for big bucks, while letting Willie McGinnest go. They're far from a cheap franchise. Just very calculated.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:18 AM | Report abuse

Isn't this the final year of Springs' contract?

Posted by: learnedhand1 | December 24, 2008 10:19 AM | Report abuse

Good to hear the team is in talks with Hall. I think he will be a good pick up. Some of you have lost your minds about Rogers. The kid has played very well all year after knee surgery. And hell of I want to deal with another year of Springs because you know he will be out for half of the season again.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 24, 2008 10:19 AM | Report abuse

Except that the economic model for sports does not follow the economic model for the country. Try *Yankees* in that statement and read it to see if it still holds

Posted by: NFeKPo | December 24, 2008 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Except for the MLB and NFL are totally different business models.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:20 AM | Report abuse

This whole Carlos and Hall thing is silly. Sign them both I say. Carlos is a better run stopper and covering the deep ball.

Hall gambles but makes big plays and seems to cover underneath stuff better.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 9:35 AM

Totally agree. But the problem is CR22 may/will feel inferrior because the total payout will be less by a $2-4 Mill per year average. And that may affect his play....

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:21 AM | Report abuse

so lets say we trade campbell in the scenario above, what good does that do the team? They now have to bring in a qb, so its 2 steps forward, and 3 steps back.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:21 AM | Report abuse

Good to hear the team is in talks with Hall. I think he will be a good pick up. Some of you have lost your minds about Rogers. The kid has played very well all year after knee surgery. And hell of I want to deal with another year of Springs because you know he will be out for half of the season again.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 24, 2008 10:19 AM | Report abus


You think only half the season? Are you counting the games where he's "100 percent going to play this week" but never actually does as games played?

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:22 AM | Report abuse

Detroit is going to have to use one of its #1 picks for a QB and pay top dollar for unproven talent.
In their shoes, I'd definitely consider a pretty good QB like Campbell -- he may not be in that top tier, but he's tough and a decent game manager and has very little downside risk. I'd rather pay him the equivalent of a #1 overall pick than pay someone like Stafford (or Joey Harrington!!) and find out that he's a bust.
Then you get a LT with the #1 overall... hmmm, intriguing.
Unlikely, but intriguing.

in this scenario, who do you get for QB -- Cassel? Skeletor? McNabb? Or.... Brady???
The mind boggles.

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 10:23 AM | Report abuse

psp, Colvin and Thomas have both been much less than advertised when they came to NE. Neither guy has been as good as they were previously.

And the pats traded branch, which effectively DOOMED them for the 2006 season. They ended up having to trade for a WR from the Raiders, and had to bring in Reche Caldwell, who performed well all year long, up until he started dropping passes against the Colts in the AFC Championship game. Sure they got a #1 pick out of it, but it cost them in my estimation a year in which they could have easily won the championship.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:25 AM | Report abuse

psp, Rogers is under contract till next year, so nothing to worry about there...the Redskins have the upper hand in that deal...

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 9:54 AM

If we go into the uncapped year, he,ll be a restricted FA for 2 years after 2009........

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:25 AM | Report abuse

The top 10 for INTs by a defense this season includes: Cleveland Browns (#2), Green Bay Packers (#5), New Orleans Saints (#9, tied), and Oakland Raiders (#9, tied).

The top 10 in pts allowed per game:

Titans, Pitt, Balt, Wash, NYG, PHI, TB, ATL, CAR, IND

There is not one team below .500 in the top 10 pts allowed per game. Obviously turnovers are something you want, but FAR more telling is the defense's ppg.

And I'm not saying I don't want DHall. I'm saying that Carlos Rogers has just as much of an impact on this defense as Hall, and he needs to be treated as such, whether this offseason, or in the near future.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:12 AM | Report abuse

I'm not just taling INTs; but overall turnover ratio. The top 5 teams I've got in TO ratio this year are Titans, Miami, Indy, Bmore, GMen. Of the 15 teams with a + TO ratio in the league, 11 of them are already in the playoffs or in playoff contention going into week 17.

And it's not as if teams have been socring gobs of points on us since D.Hall has been playing the number 1 spot. In fact at least 2 of the TDs (Bmore and Cincy) were on Rogers. I have yet to see D.Hall actually get beat for a TD (though DeSean Jackson came close).

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 10:25 AM | Report abuse

bottom line is we are a team without any playmakers or should i say a team with only 1 playmaker (moss) and even he is not an "elite player" merely pretty good....break it down on offense first .... the combination of portis/betts provides almost nothing in the way of play making.... both are grind it out smallish players lacking speed or moves to create a big play, both are fine on their own but together is poor team construction ( talent evaluation) Rb's handle the ball colectively 400+ times a year we need to find a combo who can produce some offense on their own ie ... make someone miss once in awhile....Wr's same story outside of moss no one can create for themselves seperate, catch and run etc...when we do make a catch we almost never make anything happen ....I know cooley can rumble but thats not really what i'm talking about...again we lack speed and or size on the outside and we by and large are very easy for teams to matchup against...this has been the case for a long time...so to me its more personnel than play design or scheme...its players guys....the schemes we run are sound we have a team filled with the complementary guys that make you solid..but our problem is we poorly evaluate and compensate them which places in a position year after year to bring them back and try it again like next year EL or thrash are going to be bigger and faster than they were this year.....please

defense same story very well coached very solid scheme...the elephant again in the room is playmakers.... sacks, turnovers thats the name of the game... be disruptive you get that by having lets say 8 solid guys and 3 guys teams really have to worry about... force the offense into changing what they do to protect themselves.....we don't have those guys at all...instead we have 11 solid guys most of them old who can't consistently stay on the field and play at a high level... so we get 10 or so games out of them each year yet next year we think they will be healthier and faster more disruptive....please

said it many times root for the uniforms not for the players.... Merry Christmas all RI....

Posted by: OriginalOldschool | December 24, 2008 10:27 AM | Report abuse

"I would like to keep Rogers, when the time comes, but I would not pay him #1 corner money. The fact of the matter is that he is a good #2 corner. He does not have the speed or ball skills to be constanty matched up with a #1 receiver. He is a hard worker and a good tackler, but just does not have the God given skills.

Posted by: NCMatt1"

That's your opinion, and you and I will have to disagree. Rogers IS a #1 corner, and if the skins don't re-sign him, he's going to make some other team VERY happy. He's been put out on an island all season long, while QBs have had 3-4-5 seconds to find an open receiver, and he's answered the bell every game. I believe he's also #2 or 3 in passes defensed this season, so the "speed" or athleticism argument doesn't hold water. That's actually what sets him apart from other corners, and allows him to man-cover without the threat of INTs. His ball skill are sub-par, sure, but his hitting and run-stopping are elite for a corner. He's as intimidating as a safety when a route is run his way in zone coverage.

Just as somebody mentioned earlier, his and Hall's skill sets compliment each other. Neither is more valuable than the other.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:29 AM | Report abuse

so lets say we trade campbell in the scenario above, what good does that do the team? They now have to bring in a qb, so its 2 steps forward, and 3 steps back.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:21 AM | Report abuse

Gotta agree with Bean. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ONLY scenario that makes sense in terms of getting rid of JC at this point is if we dump Zorn/JC and bring in McDaniels/Cassell in a package deal...

...and trading for Tom Brady of course...

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 10:29 AM | Report abuse

PS, agree 100%. The best measure of a defense is points allowed. In addition to your list from this year, recall the Lions of last year. They had lots of TO and I believe were the top scoring defense in the league. But they gave up tons of yards, and tons of points.

If the Redskins improve their offense, a very good defense now could become great next year. When your opponent becomes one-dimensional it will be easier to get pressure and probably increase turnovers. Right now they are very conservative so as not to give up the big play.

I don't agree with those who want to blow up the team and "rebuild". Not time for that yet. This team is a few pieces away from being really good, IMHO. The cupboard is not bare.

As far as Hall goes, the secondary was pretty good before he got here, and will be pretty good if he goes. I'd say that the choice is between Hall and Smootie, not Hall and Rogers.

Smootie has been playing very soft and allowing a lot of catches in front of him. If they'd give him deep help at random times he could try jumping routes and come up with a few picks. But mostly they don't so he's giving a big cushion. I don't think he can make the turn very well anymore, and Hall can.

Besides deep help, they also put a safety into the flat to defend the out -- Horton got a pick doing that earlier this year.

So the question for Blache is, do you want a reliable guy who won't give up a big play very often, but who will give up the 8-10 yard out and needs safety help on occasion, or do you want guy who'll take a few risks but doesn't need the help?

Character is an issue. My sense is that the team is pretty tight right now, and one knucklehead can poison a locker room. Michael Westbrook, for instance.

Posted by: dpc2003 | December 24, 2008 10:29 AM | Report abuse

BeantownGreg,

Let me be 100% clear about this, I do not want to trade Campbell.
With that being said, you don't think that this team would be better with an additional #1 pick and the 1st pick of the 3rd round?
I understand that Vinnie would be making the selections, but if we had a good GM, I think that we could get better.

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 10:32 AM | Report abuse

mikeyvanilli writes: "How many of the DLine's (Jason Taylor's) sacks this season have come from extra time due to lock down coverage?"

Good point. That's the thing about turnovers. Coaches will tell you that sacks usually result from good coverage, and interceptions from pressure on the QB. We haven't had many of either this season, and that fits with what you see on the field.

The defense has been great at preventing scores; not so great at pressure or tight coverage. That could have something to do with their scheme.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 24, 2008 10:33 AM | Report abuse

Why would you sign a 35 year old to a longer contract, if he wants to play here it should be for no more the 2mil for one season.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:09 AM

To fit under the CAP for 2009. I also said put some voidable years at the end (AKA Phony years just to spread the CAP #).

Flound - Sometimes you have to come to a comprimise and that's what I am hoping they will do. You could demand him to take a pay cut, but if he refuses and you release him, then you may have Justin Tryon as your 3rd CB because you can't keep Smoooot either. Have you seen his salary for next year? $4Mil+ for a 3rd CB?

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:34 AM | Report abuse

"I'm not just taling INTs; but overall turnover ratio.

Posted by: p1funk"

I understand that, but when we're talking about the impact corners have, it's really only speaking about INTs they've made.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:35 AM | Report abuse

Seems easy to me....

Let springs walk, sign rogers and hall, keep smoot for depth.....groom draft picks...

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 10:36 AM | Report abuse

"With that being said, you don't think that this team would be better with an additional #1 pick and the 1st pick of the 3rd round?"

The team would not be better because you just traded the starting qb, and you essentially have to start over.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:38 AM | Report abuse

I say he either takes a pay cut or just sign him to an extension the would push his CAP # down in 2009.......
Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:06 AM | Report abuse
Uhh, who said he wants to play after next year? I think he only agreed to play two years because that got him out of Miami. I don't think he wants to play next year but publicly committed to doing so, which is why he made the comments about not being worth the 8 mill/year.

I took that as his way of saying, I aint taking a pay cut if you want to pay me 8 milly a year I'll play because I said I would but I think he'd love to be cut.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:14 AM

I said resign him to push CAP # down for 2009 not for him to play longer.

After 2009, there will be no CAP, so you cut him after that and he still only plays one year.

This is the year the Skins are going to have to get creative with the CAP to do what they want to do......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:38 AM | Report abuse

"...though sources close to the player said he is hardly unopposed to testing the free agent waters in March."

Wouldn't that be "hardly opposed?"

Marry Christmas from the Grammar Police.

Posted by: wp11239 | December 24, 2008 10:39 AM | Report abuse

"I'm not just taling INTs; but overall turnover ratio.

Posted by: p1funk"

I understand that, but when we're talking about the impact corners have, it's really only speaking about INTs they've made.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:35 AM | Report abuse

Right, but you are comparing only INTs to overall points allowed. Overall points allowed also has alot more to do than simply having a covering/tackling corner like Rogers. (BTW, I'm also not sure why folks think D.Hall can't cover or tackle. Again, teams have not been scoring alot points on us since D.Hall took over the #1 spot).

My point is that a key part of bettering our turnover ratio is to have some playmakers on defense who can actually create turnovers. In that regard D.Hall is toward the top and C.Rogers plummets to the bottom of the list.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

"Let springs walk, sign rogers and hall, keep smoot for depth.....groom draft picks...

Posted by: chrislarry"

I'd actually let Smoot walk and keep Springs, if I had my choice.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:41 AM | Report abuse

Seems easy to me....

Let springs walk, sign rogers and hall, keep smoot for depth.....groom draft picks...

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 10:36 AM | Report abuse

That seems like the like the blatantly obvious decision to me as well..... which is why I'm so convinced it will never happen.

A first and a third for Campbell? Uhh, no one would give a first and a third for Campbell.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:41 AM | Report abuse

dpc2003=Vinny

We are not a couple players away from being really good, and I hope unlike you Vinny gets that.

This team has done nothing for the last 18 years, when do you suggest we rebuild.

And don't tell me we made the playoffs a couple times big deal, we have 1-2 playoff wins in the last 18 years nothing to write home about.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Cl - Let him walk after 2009 or cut him this offseason? He can't walk anywhere since he's under contract.

And Smooooooot has like 3 more years of starter money on his ocntract............

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Plack, ST Player of the Week...

Somewhere Leigh Torrence deserves part of this award.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

BeantownGreg,

So, you believe that with starting a rookie QB behind a better O-Line we would average less than 16.1 points per game?

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

I said resign him to push CAP # down for 2009 not for him to play longer.

After 2009, there will be no CAP, so you cut him after that and he still only plays one year.

This is the year the Skins are going to have to get creative with the CAP to do what they want to do......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:38 AM | Report abuse


Yeah but then you have dead money in 10 and 11. For what? This team is going to get worse before it gets better in my opinion.

You have some you skill players on O and your DB's are set if you sign Hall and CR.

At this point you clear dead cap space and build your O-line and defensive front seven. You target '11,'12 to compete.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

I understand that, but when we're talking about the impact corners have, it's really only speaking about INTs they've made.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:35 AM

Not completely true. With a guy like Asoumugha, for instance, you take away one side of the field with one guy. This allows you to do other things defensively because he doesn't need help.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | December 24, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Flound - Sometimes you have to come to a comprimise and that's what I am hoping they will do. You could demand him to take a pay cut, but if he refuses and you release him, then you may have Justin Tryon as your 3rd CB because you can't keep Smoooot either. Have you seen his salary for next year? $4Mil+ for a 3rd CB?

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:34 AM |

What are you talking about releasing JT cost us nothing, the only way he cost us money is if we resign him.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:45 AM | Report abuse

Hall is no Leigh Torrence. Right Jason?

Posted by: Zornography | December 24, 2008 10:45 AM | Report abuse

Plack, ST Player of the Week...

Somewhere Leigh Torrence deserves part of this award.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Well I'm assuming that it's named the "Leigh Torrence special teams player of the week award" anyway so in a way he shares them all.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:45 AM | Report abuse

This team is not going to be able to rebuild in one year or maybe even two. Those who want a wholesale purging of the roster have to realize that you have to replace the former players with someone. If you go around trying to replace these players with the same quality as the last year's draft class you will be looking at an awful season. So you are forced to keep much of the talent you have, even if it is expensive and declining because of the contracts and lack of replacement value. You should keep the strength of the defense intact--the corners. Sign Hall, Rogers, Springs, Smoot. They are going to carry this defense. If you let Rogers or Hall get away, you will not be able to replace them with comparable players. Springs is expensive, but worth signing. When healthy, he shuts down receivers better than Rogers or Hall. Smoot, of the four, is the one who could be replaced with comparable talent.

Posted by: driley | December 24, 2008 10:47 AM | Report abuse

"So, you believe that with starting a rookie QB behind a better O-Line we would average less than 16.1 points per game"

Taking away Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco, how have rookie QB's fared historically in the NFL??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:48 AM | Report abuse

So everyone on here understands:

"" If you release JT this off-season he cost you nothing against the cap""!!!!!!!

Again I said nothing against the cap.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:48 AM | Report abuse

A first and a third for Campbell? Uhh, no one would give a first and a third for Campbell.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 10:41 AM

Technically, we gave up 4 draft picks including two 1st rounders for Campbell. Anyone else depressed by this?

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 24, 2008 10:50 AM | Report abuse

revised still seems easy...:

Cut Springs. Save the cap money and the will he wont he play crap. I am so JM22O with this dude.

Resign Hall

Start talking about extension/resigning of Rogers. But make him catch balls from a machine for 4 hours a day. (catch balls...snicker snicker...)

Keep smoot, too expensive to cut him, and I still think he can contribute as third corner

Groom Tyron and/or other youngsters

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 10:50 AM | Report abuse

Driley,

We have been having awful seasons, if you do not make it to the playoffs, or you squick in that does not mean you have had a good season.

How long has it been since this team won more then 10 games in a season?

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:50 AM | Report abuse

"So, you believe that with starting a rookie QB behind a better O-Line we would average less than 16.1 points per game"

Taking away Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco, how have rookie QB's fared historically in the NFL??

Posted by: BeantownGreg

Probably right around the 16.1 points per game average.

Posted by: NCMatt1 | December 24, 2008 10:51 AM | Report abuse

I understand that, but when we're talking about the impact corners have, it's really only speaking about INTs they've made.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:35 AM

Not completely true. With a guy like Asoumugha, for instance, you take away one side of the field with one guy. This allows you to do other things defensively because he doesn't need help.

Posted by: learnedhand1

---------

You missed half the argument we had. I was referring to the impact corners have in regards to turnovers. For the most part, they're responsible for INTs.

As far as your point...that's exactly my point. Rogers isn't Asomugha, but he is able to lock down a receiver without too much worry from the rest of the defense. That allows DHall to take more calculated risks, and it allows Landry to shadow DHall for any gambles that he takes. The two players compliment each other very well.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:52 AM | Report abuse

Technically, we gave up 4 draft picks including two 1st rounders for Campbell. Anyone else depressed by this?

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 24, 2008 10:50 AM |

Brown,

I didn't want to mention that because it still makes me sick.

The problem was there was no need to trade up he would have been there in the second.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:52 AM | Report abuse

Im doubtful that the Skins will be able to sign Hall. With the impending FA signing of one "Leigh Torrence" by a CB needy team to a record 50 million guaranteed, the market for #1 corners will be so high, many teams wont be able to fit a #1 corner under their salary cap.

Right JLC?

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 24, 2008 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Skins have to make a choice between bringing back aging veterans and continue to tread the waters of respectability or throwing some young talent in the deep end and finding out if they can swim. They may have to get worse to get better. I can accept losing with a young team on the rise than what's been happening over the last few years.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | December 24, 2008 10:54 AM | Report abuse

Technically, we gave up 4 draft picks including two 1st rounders for


We only gave up 1 first rounder. We got Denvers 1st rounder in 05, and kept our own first rounder, and they got ours in 06.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

"Taking away Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco, how have rookie QB's fared historically in the NFL??"

Beantown I am just adding to list, not advocating the trade campbell argument

- Rothelisburger

- Marino

- the Mannings....not huge success but they didnt embarrass themselves and learned on the job fast.

- Aikman (see above, I know 1-15 but that team was thin and young)

just for convo sake...anyone got other rookie QBs that had decent to good starter seasons?

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

1947: In a draft day blunder, the Redskins select RB Cal Rossi for the 2nd year in a row. The previous season it turned out he had a year remaining in college, now things would get worse when he told the Skins he had no desire top play pro-football. Part of the problem came from scouting. Owner George Preston Marshall only had a 50-cent budget for scouting, which was the price of couple of football magazines. The Redskins would go on to finish the season with a 4-8 record.

I can't resist,

I wonder if vinny was the GM

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

BeantownGreg,

So, you believe that with starting a rookie QB behind a better O-Line we would average less than 16.1 points per game?

Posted by: NCMatt1

-----------

That's not the question to ask. The real question is:

Do you think a rookie QB behind a better o-line would average more points per game than Jason Campbell behind a better o-line?

Or do you think a rookie QB in the future behind a better o-line would average moer points per game than Jason Campbell behind a better o-line in the future?

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 10:58 AM | Report abuse

So everyone on here understands:

"" If you release JT this off-season he cost you nothing against the cap""!!!!!!!

Again I said nothing against the cap.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 10:48 AM

Flound. Let me break it down so we are on the same page (I geuss I can do that with no one showing up for work)..

If we keep JT55 next year, he will count $8 Mil against the CAP. If we renegotiate his contract with a $6 M Signing bonus, givehim a base salary an ad 3/4 years to his salary, then his CAP # will be around $2-3 Mil. Then, we cut him after next year....

2009 will be the last CAPPED year. There is no way, they can come to an agreement by the March 2009, which is the date they need to make if they want to keep the CAP.....

And even if a new labor contract was hammered out in time and JT55 retires, you can just amortize his bonus over the remaining years of the contract if he was put on the erserve/retirement list.

CREATIVE ACCOUNTING PEOPLE!

Gweez - a little dead cap space isn't bad. The Skins would be in a good dead cap position if we never had signed BLloyd and are superstar wasn't murdered.......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 10:58 AM | Report abuse

For those of you who want to recoup draft picks by trades, remember it is only the Redskins who make bazaar trades for players, often sending multiple draft picks for an average player. The trades we have made over the past 4 years are crippling us. I still can't believe we threw in a 2nd round pick along with Champ Bailey for Portis! That should have been a strait up trade, player for player.

Posted by: RedskinJim1 | December 24, 2008 11:00 AM | Report abuse

"There is no way, they can come to an agreement by the March 2009"

DaReal4th=nostradomus

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 11:01 AM | Report abuse

We only gave up 1 first rounder. We got Denvers 1st rounder in 05, and kept our own first rounder, and they got ours in 06.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 10:56 AM

I was counting the first rounder we spent to actually draft him. We spent the one we had in '05 and had to give up the '06 pick.

Flounder, it was a total panic move. I like JC, but I'm not sure I'd give up 4 draft picks for Peyton Manning much less Jason Campbell.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 24, 2008 11:01 AM | Report abuse

Theres sooo much talent in the Skins defensive backfield. You would think a good GM could turn this depth into an improvement in the front 4, via a trade.

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 24, 2008 11:02 AM | Report abuse

How about we sign Hall, Rogers, Springs, and Smoot to the same contract: $1Million per interception, $5Million if you lead the team in INTs?

Oh, and $50,000 per compliment... if it's a good one. "Kellen, I really admire the way you handle a Ducati!"

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 11:02 AM | Report abuse

brown, we still technically only gave up 1 first round pick.

just sayin...

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 24, 2008 11:04 AM | Report abuse

4th,

What has he shown you to make you want to bring him back at all. He has had one good game all season, he will be another year older. This team is not even close to contending so why bother, admit you made a mistake and don't compound it by giving him anymore money.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 11:04 AM | Report abuse

LH - I feel ya. I feel are set for at least 5-6 years at the CB spot.

CR22 and DHall are in their mid-20s.

Tryon is a rookie with potential (a potential to be good, bad, or medium)

Smooot who is prob just 30/31.

So why not bring back Springs one more season and have tryon groomed another year and have him as a STer? Unless you think that will stunt his growth?

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 11:04 AM | Report abuse

I was counting the first rounder we spent to actually draft him. We spent the one we had in '05 and had to give up the '06 pick.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 24, 2008 11:01 AM

Huh? You must work for Harry Madoff. This is like saying "My new iPod cost $400. $200 when I put it on my credit card and another $200 when I paid the bill at the end of the month."

Posted by: talent_evaluator | December 24, 2008 11:05 AM | Report abuse

Theres sooo much talent in the Skins defensive backfield. You would think a good GM could turn this depth into an improvement in the front 4, via a trade.

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 24, 2008 11:02 AM

Yeah...a good NBA GM. Trades are hard to do in the NFL when you're just including players.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 24, 2008 11:06 AM | Report abuse

F Springs

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Technically, we gave up 4 draft picks including two 1st rounders for Campbell. Anyone else depressed by this?

Posted by: brownwood26

We are not known for being Cool Hand Luke on draft day, are we? We see things that are not there (like other teams taking our prize), hope for things to be different that we do see (bad knees), draft the "best player available" to the absurd end of the argument and we get to watch the front office pat themselves on the back for their drafting "success". It would be quite comical except that it is a team I care deeply about that is doing this over and over.

Posted by: driley | December 24, 2008 11:08 AM | Report abuse

DaReal4th=nostradomus

Posted by: chrislarry

If he was really Nostradamus, he'd probably be able to remember his password.
Or he would've written it down in a safe place when he was in 2nd grade.

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 11:08 AM | Report abuse

I would take Springs over Smoot if I had to choose. Sure springs is hurt much, but he is still a very good corner and can play FS which allows LL30 to play SS, and cause trouble at the LOS. Smoot is at best the 4th CB on this team with the present roster. And if what someone said earlier about him counting $4 million against teh cap next year... its better to keep springs at a high salary (i doubt he takes a pay cut as his history shows) then keep a 4th CB at $4 mil. Hall should be resigned at a reasonable salary, but i doubt snyderatto will be trying for that. They will probably just throw money at him like normal. Rogers was on track this year, not sure exactly what happened the last couple of games. He has shown he needs to show up next year and hasnt played well enough for an early contract extension. If the uncapped year happens, the balls in the FO's court. If the skins cant resign Hall, I expect them to keep springs/smoot/rogers.

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 24, 2008 11:13 AM | Report abuse

How about we sign Hall, Rogers, Springs, and Smoot to the same contract: $1Million per interception, $5Million if you lead the team in INTs?

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 11:02 AM | Report abuse

Daggar it's a fine idea however the minimum veteran contract must be for 800k and in that scenario Hall would make about 8 million next year while Smoot and Rogers would work for free.

Posted by: Gweez | December 24, 2008 11:13 AM | Report abuse

Huh? You must work for Harry Madoff. This is like saying "My new iPod cost $400. $200 when I put it on my credit card and another $200 when I paid the bill at the end of the month."

Posted by: talent_evaluator | December 24, 2008 11:05 AM

What? Horrible analogy as you wouldn't have had to pay the $400 for the iPod AND get charged for the gas you paid to drive to the store and the time you took off work to go get it. That's essentially what the Skins did just for the "right" to take Campbell in the 1st round.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 24, 2008 11:14 AM | Report abuse

driley,

I'm all for purging the roster and having an awful season - for the right reasons. Why don't you think this team can rebuild in 2 years? That's what teams do.

I'm against treading water with an 8-9 win team that isn't making a real run at a championship and paying out $$ to over-30 vets.

Let's dump JT and play Evans/Wilson/Jackson.

Let's give HB Blades a full run at LB to see how he performs for a full year. Let's give Fincher some run to see what we have and bid Washington adieu.

Let's sign a couple of young DTs and rotate them with Golston/Montgomery and thank Griff for his services.

Let Springs walk and give Tryon some run in nickel packages.

Give Kendall a hearty handshake on his way out the door and see what the Rhino brings to the table.

Why not? What's the worst that can happen? A 3-4 win season? Then we get a high draft pick, we get to see what we have on the roster, we get to take some time to clear cap space...what's the problem?

IMO, the only way we bring back these vets is if they take vet minimums or cut-rates and they understand from the get-go that we are playing our youngsters. They can hang around for lockerroom presence and to groom the young bucks. After all the $$ we've been paying them over the years for some mediocre 9 win seasons, maybe they can cut us a break and agree to do just that.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 11:14 AM | Report abuse

Lets look at this team over the last 17 years since 1992, and then lets discuss how much more do you need, before it is time to rebuild instaed of putting a band aid on it every year.

since 1992
6 Wining Seasons

4 playoffs

3 playoff wins

This team has stunk for a long time and needs to be rebuilt, I could care less about winning 9-10 games each year and sometimes you get in and sometimes you don't.

Lets fix it so we have a chance at that thing they play for, I think it is called the Super Bowl.

Sometimes you have to get worse to get better, it does not always work but nothing else is working so it is time to give it a try.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 11:14 AM | Report abuse

chrislarry.

See Ben Rothlesboogie

Posted by: REDneckSKINhead | December 24, 2008 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Driley,

We have been having awful seasons, if you do not make it to the playoffs, or you squick in that does not mean you have had a good season.

How long has it been since this team won more then 10 games in a season?

Posted by: Flounder21

Awful is Cinncinnatti awful, Cleveland awful, St. Louis awful, Washington Nationals awful. We have not had a very good season for a long time but being around .500 is not awful--just depressing when you expect better.

Posted by: driley | December 24, 2008 11:16 AM | Report abuse

I refuse to allow Norv-based calculations Up Here. That dog won't hunt.
Start with the beginning of the Snyder Interregnum. Then we can talk.

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 11:17 AM | Report abuse

poop. you had already had listed Rothlisboggie. my bad

Posted by: REDneckSKINhead | December 24, 2008 11:17 AM | Report abuse

DaReal4th=nostradomus

Posted by: chrislarry

If he was really Nostradamus, he'd probably be able to remember his password.
Or he would've written it down in a safe place when he was in 2nd grade.

Posted by: daggar | December 24, 2008 11:08 AM

That's how us brainiacs are. Know it alls on all subjects known.

But can never find our keys or remember passwords.......

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 11:19 AM | Report abuse

Forget Springs.

At this point I'd love for him to sign with Dallas so that he can eat up a bunch of their cap space and play 4 full games a season.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 11:19 AM | Report abuse

Flounder, take the 93 season out of your math (which was pretty good season) and then notice how depressing it gets....

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Lets look at this team over the last 17 years since 1992, and then lets discuss how much more do you need, before it is time to rebuild instaed of putting a band aid on it every year.

since 1992
6 Wining Seasons

4 playoffs

3 playoff wins

This team has stunk for a long time and needs to be rebuilt, I could care less about winning 9-10 games each year and sometimes you get in and sometimes you don't.

Lets fix it so we have a chance at that thing they play for, I think it is called the Super Bowl.

Sometimes you have to get worse to get better, it does not always work but nothing else is working so it is time to give it a try.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 11:14 AM | Report abuse

I agree with most Flound, but you know this isnt happening with snyderatto. Snyder doesnt have the patience even if he knew thats what this team needs. And i doubt he knows what this team needs.

Posted by: TonyButterFingersHomo1 | December 24, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Flounder, take the 93 season out of your math (which was pretty good season) and then notice how depressing it gets....

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 11:20 AM |

CL,

They were 4-12 in 93

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 11:24 AM | Report abuse

Huh? You must work for Harry Madoff. This is like saying "My new iPod cost $400. $200 when I put it on my credit card and another $200 when I paid the bill at the end of the month."

Posted by: talent_evaluator | December 24, 2008 11:05 AM

What? Horrible analogy as you wouldn't have had to pay the $400 for the iPod AND get charged for the gas you paid to drive to the store and the time you took off work to go get it. That's essentially what the Skins did just for the "right" to take Campbell in the 1st round.

Posted by: brownwood26


What???

We had 2 first round draft picks to start with in 2005 and 2006 combined.

After the trade, we used 2 first round draft picks in 2005 and 2006 combined.

There was no loss of a 1st rounder in there.

The "cost" of trading for Jason Campbell was a 3rd and 4th round pick.

Posted by: psps23 | December 24, 2008 11:24 AM | Report abuse

pfunk,

The reason I say that it will take 2 or more years to rebuild is that you can only replace so many players at a time. Remember that it is not just replacing a position but also improving it that is needed. Sure you could bring in all young untested players but you are still basically in the tryout phase of setting positions. With four draft picks this year we have a #1 and a #3 that have a good chance of being a productive player. That is two positions from the draft. Free agency is probably a 50% success rate. So if you will have 8 positions to fill in two years you will have to have two outstanding seasons in a row of replacing players to make it to a playoff level. The monkey wrench in this whole equation is you have to be able to evaluate talent, and that to me is a weak spot in this organization.

Posted by: driley | December 24, 2008 11:25 AM | Report abuse

This all goes back to the hiring of a F-ing Cowgirl, ever since this team hired Norv Turner they have been a mediocre team.

F the F-ing Cowgilrs

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 24, 2008 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Nice rejoinder Flound.

Constantly churning a team means constant mediocrity -- at best. Around 2/3 of the NFL is like that. The really good teams are perpetually good, because among other things they understand that the talent level in the league is fairly well spread out. What differentiates them is they DON'T blow up a team, they add pieces here and there: they stay consistent. Sometimes they have a 9 or 10 win season, sometimes they have a 12 or 13 win season.

There just aren't that many great players to be had.

The Redskins have drafted reasonably well on defense. If you look at the last few years, they made defense a priority and got some solid starters, along with a great player (#21 RIP). Just imagine what this defense would be like with ST!

Now it's time to turn to the offense, and you've got maybe a 3 year window before it's again time to get to the defense. The jury is out on Kelly, Thomas, and Davis. Next year will tell who among that group can produce.

This draft, it's the offensive line. The OL guys are too old: good early in the year, but worn down by the end. So, top priorities are tackle, center, and a guard.

If you want to be a contender like NYG,PIT,NWE,IND,BAL (why all these AFC teams?) then realize that consistency is what defines all of them. Some of those teams have truly great, HOF guys. Some don't.

I think Snyder learned the lesson of consistency. He thought that he could blow up a loser, bring in some great players with 1 or 2 years left and win a Super Bowl. Nope!

Then he brought in a great coach to bring discipline to a team that had none. Then he tried to hire a "genius" coach and blow the team up again.

Finally he realized it was going to take years to undo the damage done by a decade of Norv. A coach who tolerated Westbrook while dumping Stephen Davis. Watching the Redskins in the 90's was painful: they were losers, and found ways, creative, imaginative ways, to lose football games. Yes, they got to the playoffs a couple of times. But fell flat and when they made mistakes or had a bad game it haunted them for a season. They had talent, but no heart.

Joe Gibbs turned that around.

Now, they could use a couple of impact players. The supporting cast is in place, they have the basis of a sound football team.

Who are those impact players?

Posted by: dpc2003 | December 24, 2008 11:30 AM | Report abuse

beep beep

Posted by: CindyBoren | December 24, 2008 11:30 AM | Report abuse

driley - how do you explain the Falcons/Ravens/Dolphins this year making the playoffs in what was said to be a longterm rebuilding project for each team?

Posted by: DaReal4th | December 24, 2008 11:31 AM | Report abuse

Flound...

my season to SB ratios are always off. i ws referring to gibbs 1.0's last season...the post 92 SB year where we made the playoffs and were still good. So I thought that was 93...


you have to excuse me, I am camping in Tardville today...

Posted by: chrislarry | December 24, 2008 11:32 AM | Report abuse

driley,

We obviously can't purge the whole roster. But we need to get alot of these vets out. Here's my breakdown:

1) We need to let Springs walk: We are going to sign at least Hall or Rogers long-term. And we at least have them both for another year. Smoot is still on the roster. Let's take a look at Tryon/Westbrook.

2) At LB, Washington needs to go and we need to start thinking of a replacement for Rocky Mac: My opinion is to sign Suggs, and find ways to give Fincher/HB Blades some regular play. We still don't see any of Khary Campbell who supposedly has some game as well.

3) At DT, We need to get rid of Griff. We can rotate Monty/Golston with a couple of young DTs that we pick up through draft or undrafted free agents.

4) On the O-line. We don't resign Kendall and we cut at least Jansen. We get Rhino and Heyer some consistent play. Maybe we move Samuels to RT to extend his playing life and groom Heyer at LT to see what we have there. We draft young linemen and develop them.

5) We don't need to worry about our safeties. Landry, Horton and Moore all can play. Maybe we keep around a cheap vet like Green.

6) Thrash needs to go and one of the young WRs needs to get some consistent run.

There are alot of older vets that can stick around (and need to for cap purposes) - Rabach, Thomas, Samuels, Moss, ARE, Fletch, Portis/Betts, Rock, Smoot. But the ones that can walk/get cut, need to walk/get cut.

Posted by: p1funk | December 24, 2008 11:37 AM | Report abuse

keep rogers and hall and let springs go!!!!

Posted by: jimmy_the_crickett | December 24, 2008 12:20 PM | Report abuse

1st good job nagoose!

this blog entry has more comments than featured articles!

Say what you ant but Rogers had a good year for a CB this year and proved himself a lot. he can't catch, but folks did not beat him this year. he played at a pro-bowl level the 2/3rds of this season.

Posted by: oknow1 | December 24, 2008 2:36 PM | Report abuse

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