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Redskins Re-Sign Westbrook, Add Assistant

From the Associated Press:

The Washington Redskins on Wednesday re-signed cornerback Byron Westbrook and hired Chip Garber as defensive quality control coach.

Westbrook, the younger brother of Philadelphia Eagles running back Brian Westbrook, spent the last two seasons on the Redskins practice squad. He originally signed with Washington as an undrafted free agent from Salisbury State in May 2007.

Garber coached 27 years in college at SMU, Kentucky, Mississippi State, TCU, Minnesota, VMI, Hofstra, Army and North Texas. Last year he entered the pro ranks as the defensive backs coach of the CFL's Hamilton Tiger-Cats

In 1995, Garber and Redskins head coach Jim Zorn worked together at Minnesota. Garber coached defensive backs, while Zorn was the Gophers' quarterbacks coach.

By washingtonpost.com Sports Editor  |  February 11, 2009; 1:36 PM ET
 
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Comments

What is the need for Westbrook -2.0?

Posted by: EGENOUS | February 11, 2009 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Not to restart the beer debate...but this teaser is from FARK.Com

"India bottling cow urine and selling it as a refreshing drink. Hey, it worked for Budweiser"

Posted by: TheCork |

Posted by: TheCork | February 11, 2009 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Sweeeeeeet, great signing. Now all the team needs is: RT, RG, DT, DE, OLB and we should be all set

Posted by: HustlerofCulture | February 11, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

I think you mean LG. RG is going to be taken up by the overpaid and over the hill Randy Thomas.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 11, 2009 1:48 PM | Report abuse

I already posted this for you.

Posted by: Flounder21 | February 11, 2009 1:49 PM | Report abuse

What - no beep?! Thanks guys... lol >:-0

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 1:51 PM | Report abuse

...beer...bud...

.... see previous comment about monster trucks & daisy dukes....

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 1:53 PM | Report abuse

rypien11

Perhaps if there is a serious attempt to move down to get Oher later in the 1st round, the team could also acquire a second round pick along the way by dangling a pick from the '10 draft.

Folks will scream, but to me, re-acquiring a second round pick this year is paramount as this is a draft featuring team needs.

Giving up a pick in '10 would allow the team to take a olb/de with the second pick and use the third on another 0-lineman.

But who knows what they'll do?

That's why this is so innerestin'!

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 11, 2009 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Here are Elways stats for u to compare to JC.
1985 Broncos 16 games 327 completions 605 attempts 54.0% 3,891 yards 22 TD 23 INT 38 sacks 70.2 QBR

1984 Broncos 15 g 214 comp 380 att 56.3% 2,598 yds 18 TD 15 int 24 sacks 76.8 QBR

1983 Broncos 11 g 123 comp 259 att 47.5% 1,663 yds 7 TD 14 INT 28 Sacks 54.9 qbr

Posted by: alex35332 | February 11, 2009 1:54 PM | Report abuse

It's hard to compare numbers from different era's though.

You'd need to factor in the % change of stats in the league and adjust accordingly, I think.

I dunno... I play geetar.. durrr... gimmee a Bud longneck and some skunk shake!

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 1:56 PM | Report abuse

Give me a saranac black forest and I will be happy.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 11, 2009 1:59 PM | Report abuse

That said, trying to make your point by downgrading he impact of the Superbowl playing crew that included Warren, Diddier and Walker doesn't fly.

Posted by: TheCork

I did cover that, when I said in that post:

Yes, I know Gibbs preferred blocking TE and with his WRs, the TE didn't need to be a major threat.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

Keep the #13 pick, we could use a stud OL or LB and that should be available. We can't afford risking two misses by trading down.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 2:02 PM | Report abuse

Byron Westbrook is the Leigh Torrence of practice squad cornerbacks.

Posted by: Predator48 | February 11, 2009 2:11 PM | Report abuse

'...Keep the #13 pick...'

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 2:02 PM


What if moving down also gets you an additional low round pick this year?

What if moving down, giving up a pick in '10 gets you a mid-2nd round this year?

Just askin'......me, I'm like you: take four lineman and move on to finding some undrafted guys to add on as back ups.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 11, 2009 2:11 PM | Report abuse

fyi, back to Jerry Smith. He's another Skin who should get HOF consideration from the oldtimers committee.

Smith held the record for touchdowns by a TE, 60, until Shannon Sharpe broke the record in 2003. Sharpe finished with 62.

Smith held that record for roughly 30 years!!! It may be the only significant receiving mark that lasted that long.

Its even more impressive when you realize Smith played his whole career with the 14 game schedule.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

mista ... I see it this way. Trading down means you get more chances, but poorer odds on each pick. The 2008 draft tells us that its possible to pick 3 guys in the 2nd round and have none work.

When I looked at the 11-15 picks over the last 4 years, lots of top flight players have been selected. Very good odds of success and even getting a Pro Bowl level player.

So we should take an OL (preferably) or LB with our top pick. When the draft is over, we should have selected 1 LB, 2 OL and 1 DL or a 2nd LB

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 2:25 PM | Report abuse

There are a total of 20 picks from 11-15 in last 4 years. Among these picks are 7 guys who've made the Pro Bowl:

Patrick Willis, Marshawn Lynch, Darrelle Revis, Jay Cutler, demarcus ware, Shawne Merriman, Jammal Brown

4 of these guys have been to multiple Pro Bowls.

Among the others: Ryan Clady, Jonathan Stewart, Haloti Ngata

Bottom line, there is a good chance of getting a top player with the #13 pick.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

z, despite that, I still think that they need to trade back. They're not 1 player away from competing at a high level.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 11, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

z, despite that, I still think that they need to trade back. They're not 1 player away from competing at a high level.

Posted by: BeantownGreg

They're not 1 year away, either. I'd rather draft one likely stud in a position of need as opposed to 2 question marks.

1 stud + 1 lucky pick among among the other 3 picks + 2 decent FA signings is about the best the Skins can hope for this offseason.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

zcezcest1

If your analysis is correct--and it is-- then it begs the following question:

Would giving up, say a 3rd and 4th round pick in the '10 draft be worth it if the return was a high 2nd round pick in this year's draft?

Imagine getting two potential Pro Bowlers out of this draft--would burning two picks from 2010 be worth it?

Do you think the FO would take such a move, seeing the abundance of players in positions of need on the draft board?

Moe wants the second round pick wasted on J Taylor back. Adding another high level player of value to whomever the 1st round pick is would do wonders towards improving the team.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 11, 2009 2:59 PM | Report abuse

I would say this would make Jovan Haye more likely to leave TB, and if so, I'd like to have him....

FROM ESPN:

Would Haynesworth look good in pewter and red?

While the Tennessee Titans have said that bringing back Albert Haynesworth is their top offseason priority, there is a chance the two sides will not reach an agreement. One likely destination should this not happen is the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, NFL insiders have told Stephen Holder of the St. Petersburg Times Bucs Beat blog.
The fundamental basis of the Haynesworth-to-Tampa rumor is threefold: First, the Bucs had issues with stopping the run in 2008, especially late in the season as their playoff hopes crumbled. Second, the team has over $40 million of cap space to play with, and Haynesworth will likely command one of the biggest contracts in history for a defensive tackle. Third, Haynesworth had previously told the Nashville City Paper that "either way I want to stay by my kids and stay by my house in Knoxville." While Knoxville and Tampa aren't exactly neighboring communities, it would certainly be closer to home than some of the other rumored destinations.

The Buccaneers lost longtime defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin after the 2008 season, and he was replaced by Jim Bates. Bates' defensive philosophy centers on utilizing the defensive tackles to clog the middle of the line and relying on speed around the edges and in the linebacking corps. Haynesworth would clearly fit the bill in that line-clogging role, and he and Bates share a common history as graduates of the University of Tennessee.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 11, 2009 3:00 PM | Report abuse

Trading down definately makes sense to me...my preference would be to Trade Carlos Rodgers for a 2nd and Trade our #13 back to the late #20's picking up another 2nd in the process. The draft strategy would then be to draft a starting LB in with the 1st pick, OT and DE with our new seconds and then OG with the 3rd we already have...use the later rd picks on DT and maybe speedy RB/ST player. We pick up some cheap FA's for backups/ST and maybe sign a productive starting LB for mid range $$, not breaking the bank with gauranteed $$ on ANY FA's.

Posted by: 1footballguru | February 11, 2009 3:02 PM | Report abuse

Trading down depends on who is available when the Skins pick at #13 and who they could target lower in the draft. If a top OT, OLB, or DT is available, then I bet they keep the pick. Otherwise, they could atempt to trade down and select two players (OG, OC, OT, or OLB).

The rest of the holes will be filled with free agents, trades, or undrafted free agents.

Posted by: siris | February 11, 2009 3:03 PM | Report abuse

Westbrook is no longer eligible for the practice squad. He has to complete against Tryon, Smoot, and a fifth safety for a roster spot...

Posted by: siris | February 11, 2009 3:06 PM | Report abuse

Moe, I think once you get past the first round, the odds of success drop a good bit. Yeah, there will be some finds, but its hit and miss. Heck, the Skins only clear hit in the last draft came in round 7.

So losing picks and trading up doesn't make a much sense to me unless its into round 1. Maybe you have a hunch on a specific guy and you do it, but otherwise, I'll take more picks in lower rounds.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 3:10 PM | Report abuse

I would love to see a league breakdown of draft pick level vs. professional production. You'd have to put some kind of disqualifier for injury, mebbe..

But how about just taking all the all-pros and seeing what round/pick they came off...

Statisticians begin!

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 3:11 PM | Report abuse

z, despite that, I still think that they need to trade back. They're not 1 player away from competing at a high level.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 11, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

Normally I'd agree with that sentiment but considering the lack of production from last years draft class I'd rather they stayed at #13 in hopes of getting someone who could contribute (start) from day 1.

Posted by: skinswest | February 11, 2009 3:15 PM | Report abuse

One thing that I noticed is that teams place a time value on their picks. This years pick is more valuable than next years pick in the same round.

If teams wanted me to trade my 2009 3rd round pick and I got a 2010 3rd and 5th or 6th in return ... I'd do that deal every day. Or I'd trade a 6th round pick in 2009 for a 5th in 2010.

Lastly, we grabbed Erasmus James by trading a 7th round pick. I'd like it if the Skins would stockpile 7th round picks in a similar manner. For example, perhaps at some point they trade Westbrook for a 7th round pick, instead of cutting him. Would have been good if we could have traded guys like Crummey, instead of just having them taken from the practice squad.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 11, 2009 3:18 PM | Report abuse

Rightway - but we want a RT. I certainly don't want Jansen or Heyer starting next year.

If we end up staying at #13, its gonna be hard to mess it up... unless we go WR or something ridiculous. I dont know who we'd take if more than 1 of the 4 tackles are left.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 11, 2009 1:05 PM

It's not worth getting a RT @ 13. We need more bang for the buck.........

Posted by: 4thFloor | February 11, 2009 3:19 PM | Report abuse

One pick isn't going to put us in the SB. 2 picks won't do it either. However, I'd prefer to take someone at #13 that will start for the next 10 years and that guy is most likely easier to find in the 1st round than later.

Like it or not, the team is getting old and we need young studs to build around. Quality over quantity. You can find serviceable players in FA. We need some more bona fide Pro Bowlers.

Posted by: countystyle | February 11, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

The Redskins signed a LOCAL PLAYER!!! OMG!! according to JLC this is the key to all success.

Posted by: drewkinnear | February 11, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Local players are ok (and useful for motivation)... but Florida players are NECESSARY!!!

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 3:36 PM | Report abuse

Here's an interwesting story on the difficulty of changing from a 4-3 D to the 3-4.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80ea8c1d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Posted by: frediefritz | February 11, 2009 3:36 PM | Report abuse

the most crucial aspect of a successful roster is of course the "5 10" possesion reciever. at least according to the all knowing football oracle called JLC

Posted by: drewkinnear | February 11, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

big ups to the DMV talent....

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 3:45 PM | Report abuse

We need two track stars. Moss used to be one, not anymore.

We need two track stars. At least.

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 3:51 PM | Report abuse

The weekend of the fradulent.

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 3:54 PM | Report abuse

They seem to be paying a lot of money just for a guy to go twice a year, "Come on, bro! Just tell me a few plays you guys are gonna run Sunday!"

Posted by: nojunk4me | February 11, 2009 3:55 PM | Report abuse

Kudos to the local guy.

Now, let's hope the coaching staff can find a use for him apart from just simulating his big bro in practice when it's Eagles week.

Posted by: p1funk | February 11, 2009 3:55 PM | Report abuse

It's not worth getting a RT @ 13. We need more bang for the buck.........

Posted by: 4thFloor | February 11, 2009 3:19 PM

This sounds like Vinny thinking. I'd be pretty happy if we were able to get an 8-10 year starter at RT with #13.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | February 11, 2009 3:59 PM | Report abuse

4th Floor - Smith, Smith, Monroe and Oher are all tackles - and we don't need a left tackle. Samuels has that locked up for the next 4-5 years. We desperately need a right tackle. Im not opposed to signing one (Vernon Carey), but we need one one way or another.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 11, 2009 4:00 PM | Report abuse

Now, let's hope the coaching staff can find a use for him apart from just simulating his big bro in practice when it's Eagles week.

Posted by: p1funk
How about simulating him in a game.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 11, 2009 4:02 PM | Report abuse

Ol' Heath still gets clowned in D.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Former University of Tennessee star and Redskins first-round draft bust Heath Shuler might now be a Democrat in the U.S. House of Representatives, but that doesn't mean he's regurgitating the party's talking points just because Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid think he should.

In fact, he's pretty upset with the stimulus package (Shuler was one of a few Dems to oppose the plan) and happily points the finger at Democratic leaders on the Hill, telling the AP: "In order for us to get the confidence of America, [the stimulus bill] has to be done in a bipartisan way ... I truly feel that's where maybe House leadership and Senate leadership have really failed."

That prompted Reid spokesman Jim Manley to mockingly offer this: "Let me get this straight - this is coming from a guy who threw more than twice as many interceptions than touchdowns?"

Wow, Manley really did his homework: in 29 career games, Shuler had 15 touchdowns and 33 interceptions. He's also the guy then-'Skins head coach Norv Turner benched in favor of Gus Frerotte, which could actually be more embarrassing.

Also, one of Shuler's aides might want to explain to him that bipartisanship is a two-way street. Typically in politics, there are reasons to be on the other side of an issue, no matter how seemingly unjustifiable such a stance might appear at the time.

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 4:05 PM | Report abuse

the coaching staff needs to find more than just how to use westbrook, there are a number of guys ahead of him they need to find a use for.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 11, 2009 4:06 PM | Report abuse

"... and we don't need a left tackle. Samuels has that locked up for the next 4-5 years."

LMAO! Have you seen Samuels' play lately? He's starting to show signs of decline, and it usually starts now for guys like him. tackle is a young big guy's position.

his shoulders and kness are worn down, too much punishment from the past almost nine seasons.

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Hate to nitpick but as a Salisbury Alumni I've got to correct the AP...

In 2001, the name was changed from Salisbury State University to Salisbury University.

Posted by: Gooner | February 11, 2009 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Good for Shuler, I'm sure Jim Manley is an accomplished an athlete as Shuler is.....Manley is a jackazz

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 11, 2009 4:09 PM | Report abuse

If the skins could trade down to 20 or lower, we get a 2nd rd pick from 45 to 60 based on how far in the 1st we trade down. Now, there are 3 NEED picks that the Redskins have to get right for this draft, RT, G, and DE. If we trade down and pick the best player availabe from this group of players, RT/G/DE we should be able to pick up 2 starters at need positions. This draft has enough No-Brainer talent to pull it off..even with Vinny and the Dan running the ship. The only way we should NOT trade out of this pick is if a STUD OT (top 3) falls to us...not likely to happen.

Posted by: 1footballguru | February 11, 2009 4:11 PM | Report abuse

well since they just signed westbrook, they could package him in a deal including Portis, Cooley, and Moss.

they don't have any use for westbrook besides him impersonating his brother in practice.

they could get a guy off the street for that.

Portis, Cooley, and Moss? Why trade them?

the past season was their ENTIRE fault. portis talks too much, moss is too fragile and isn't a number one WR, and Cooley - well he's been playing here all this time and we haven't won with him, why not trade him too?

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 4:15 PM | Report abuse

Well first off i wanna say i hope we dont cut Jason Taylor cuz it would pointless to cut him for the cap benefit of just 1 year when the following year is uncapped so we might as well use him and get some worth out of him instead of just adding another position of need.....my next point is that if the four elite Tackles(Oher,Smith,Smith, Monroe) and BJ Raji are all gone by #13 they should trade down and get more picks......ya know playing for the future strategy

Posted by: hillb03 | February 11, 2009 4:15 PM | Report abuse

bean, that's still some funny stuff from Manley. you'd expect an everyday person to say something like that, but him?...

BUT still, Manley probably shouldn't be mocking Shuler's NFL career. yes he sucked beyond all possible levels of sucktitude, but he still took snaps in a real NFL game.

life couldn't be too bad considering that.

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 4:22 PM | Report abuse

I think the smart move is to trade down here. None of the DE's ranked high fit into a 4-3 scheme. The best OT's will be gone by the 13th pick. Top OG's and C's aren't usually taken until the end of the 1st, early 2nd road. Trading for a late first and second round pick would put us in position to grab both a guard and a center. This would still leave a hole at tackle but we can find a vet to sign and draft a tackle next year or better yet sign Jordan Gross.

If all goes as planned, thats 3 new (young) faces on the offensive line. This allows us to get much younger much faster. We've still got to get a DE, but maybe free agency or just work with it another year. 4th in the league on D isnt too shabby. We'd a few more games if JC had a few more seconds to look around and that should be priority #1.

Posted by: brian58 | February 11, 2009 4:22 PM | Report abuse

hey RED

you think you're so big and bad

why don't YOU tell Chris Samuels he is over-the-hill and he's starting to decline!!!


BUSTA

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 11, 2009 4:25 PM | Report abuse

RED- im not saying hes a GREAT LT anymore, but no one is supplanting him. Hes still our best lineman, and with his contract, he is not going anywhere. He will be our LT for better or worse for the next 3 years at least, get used to it.

We MUCH more desperately need a RT.... we're better off at LT than RT for the time being.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 11, 2009 4:31 PM | Report abuse

sup TheTurd, I don't have to tell Samuels that... all i have to do is sit and watch game tape with him and see the expression on his face, that is how these older guys know when they're done - viewing game tape on themselves. they don't need coaches, fans, or the guy behind him on the depth chart to know when they're declining, or have already.

besides numbers can lie, but pain never does.

he's beginning to break down.

he went to alabama anyway, what's your beef?

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

RedDMV-
Hey bub- lay off of Samuals- dare I say that's a little racist to be picking on him and not Casey Rabach.

Posted by: richard_cranium | February 11, 2009 4:34 PM | Report abuse

In any event, we will be drafting/FAing for RT, not LT.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 11, 2009 4:39 PM | Report abuse

Samuels was playing pretty well up until the Detroit game where he had to sit out. Then the injuries started taking toll. He still is the least of our problems on the OL. But they do need to start getting a replacement plan in place.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | February 11, 2009 4:41 PM | Report abuse

Ryp11, I don't have a problem with Chris Samuels at all. He's been here since what, 2000? I'm already "used" to him being here.

He's the best OL they have. But he'll be turning 32 in July. It's hard to believe that he'll be effective at 36 or 37 if he played "for the next 4-5 years." Shouldn't the 'skins be panicked that their best offensive linemen will be 32 this July, with either no real talented depth, untapped potential, or overachieving backups behind him and them (the other 4 guys).


As far as if you should take a RT or LT at 13 if one is available; I think it doesn't matter. You'd have the '09 rookie RT or LT and Heyer already (not to mention a couple of cats on the practice squad).

If I were them, I wouldn't assign the young tackles a side of the line yet. I think you go through most of preseason having them swapping sides. I think by the 3rd or 4th preseason game, you'll have a good idea who can play which side.

besides the players they are swapping on the o-line in the preseason this coming season wouldn't even play until probably 2 or 3 years from now.

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 4:49 PM | Report abuse

mmmm...Salisbury Steak... mmmmm...

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 4:50 PM | Report abuse

My God, we can not replace the entire OL, so forget about Samuels, he is staying put....as he should be. RT is TOP priority and G is second...center is another luxury that we can not afford to use draft picks on...Casey is not the problem...Again, if you get trade offers to move down, TAKE THEM (unless 1-3 of the top OT are available at #13). Fortuneately for us, Gaurds are plentiful in the 2nd/3rd Rds and we can take a lesser (still better than what we have) OT/DE in the lower rd of the 1st. 3rd would be reserved for whatever we do not get in the 1st or 2nd from a need standpoint. My guess is that with the need at CB in the league and little talent at this position in the draft, minus the top 2 corners, the skins could get lucky trading carlos rodgers for a high 2nd and that would help us pick up our fourth need LB. Thoughts?

Posted by: 1footballguru | February 11, 2009 4:55 PM | Report abuse

I like the concept of using a player like Rogers in a trade while he has some value, but - The defense has been the one consistent bright spot on this team - Is trading Rogers one of those "straws that broke the camel's back" that would dilute our defense enough that we would no longer have that strengh to rely on?

Look at the season we had when Archuleta was here.

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | February 11, 2009 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Who's giving us a high second for Double Move?!.. Now... if we still had Leigh Torrence..

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Rabach is next to go in the order...

I know he killed two drives that resulted in TDs, due to his penalties in Dallas last season. Besides, he's a little undersized at 6-1, 290. No more akward kneeling from Campbell...

They should look to replace either Jansen or Kendall first. I'd say Jansen becasue he proved that he can't hold up for 16 games, and he is finito anyway, again, look at the tapes.

Kendall at 36 isn't in anyones long term plans. If Rhinehart isn't the answer then draft a OG with either of the three remaing picks after the first round.

Randy Johnson = Randy Watson. He had a few good years here, and we all came to know, respect, and in some circles, love Randy Thomas but like Randy Watson we're just tired of the same ol' act, and wish he'd leave the stage - but not before you have his backup ready.

Over under on Randy Thomas getting injured this year?

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

RED - They definitely need to start getting a plan in place to replace him, but his release fee is $9 mil this year, $5M in 2010, and $2.5M in 2011, plus hes signed thru 2013. So he definitely isnt going anywhere and I can't see anyone replacing for him at least a couple years anyway. And I really can't see him switching sides at this point.

Yes, they should be panicked. Thats why I was hoping they would trade out of #13 and get 2 lineman for one price. But I know that Jansen and Heyer are not quality starters anymore, and for the time being Samuels is, so RT is the necessary upgrades for the time being.

I wouldn't mind picking up someone like Vernon Carey in FA for RT, trading our #13 if possible for 2 2nds, and getting Duke Robinson and the best available center left. Thats 3/5s of our O-line right there.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 11, 2009 5:01 PM | Report abuse

Rogers is a perfect candidate for trading..young player, proven at CB in a Man on Man press defense and the only downside is that he does NOT catch interceptions. With the addition of Hall (whom the reskins will resign) Carlos become trade bait material for need at other positions along the D-Line and OL. I like Carlos, but unfortunately we need upgrades at other positions.

Double Move, are you serious? Carlos has 1 downside, NOT hanging on to Interceptions. Many teams would gladly give a second for someone of his skills and contract price.

Posted by: 1footballguru | February 11, 2009 5:05 PM | Report abuse

ryp, if that last paragraph happened, I'm like a pig in slop happy.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 11, 2009 5:10 PM | Report abuse

You've heard of offers?

I actually like him, too and would welcome a second (I think) - but who's offering?

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 11, 2009 5:13 PM | Report abuse

Teams who need CB help:

Seatle
KC
Clevland
Detroit
Jax
St. Louis
Jets
New Orleans
SanFran
Green Bay
New England

If you count the FA's and Draft there is NOT enough talent to satisfy the need. I have not heard any offers from specific teams (wouldn't expect it until after FA) but would not be surprised at all if the Skins get top value for Carlos.

Posted by: 1footballguru | February 11, 2009 5:19 PM | Report abuse

i think its better to hang onto rogers. Let Springs and all the old vets go.

Posted by: brian58 | February 11, 2009 5:19 PM | Report abuse

I do not like getting rid of carlos, but with the depht we have there I think we can afford to do so. Springs is Excellent when healthy and I think he has 1 more good year left in him (even if he misses 3-6 games), but agree, he needs to go after next year. The problelm with cutting him now is that you have to keep Rogers and have less ability to fill holes on OL/DL. We need to get through this year and then we get our draft picks back for 2010 and can reload on DB talent.

Posted by: 1footballguru | February 11, 2009 5:25 PM | Report abuse

1footballguru I agree. I'd prefer to continue to be deep at the secondary position. If we can get Springs to sign to a short term deal for a decent amount, I'm all for it. We just have to make sure Rogers gets enough burn to be happy.

Posted by: brian58 | February 11, 2009 5:33 PM | Report abuse

+++... the team could also acquire a second round pick along the way by dangling a pick from the '10 draft.

Folks will scream...

Posted by: MistaMoe+++

Yes we will, and here's why.

This year's picks will be made by Vinny Cerrato.

Next year's picks--if there's a God in heaven--will be made by someone else.

Posted by: TheCork | February 11, 2009 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of booze... Anyone tried a "Sully"

Two shots of Grey Goose

And a splash

Posted by: TheCork | February 11, 2009 5:42 PM | Report abuse

+++Moe wants the second round pick wasted on J Taylor back. Adding another high level player of value to whomever the 1st round pick is would do wonders towards improving the team.

Posted by: MistaMoe +++

Again, what makes you think the people who messed up five top picks last year will suddenly turn into geniuses this year?

For a change, I'm not being snarky,.I want to know the logic involved.

With the right GM and Personnel Dept, it might--Might--make sense. But why should a team without them make that move?

Posted by: TheCork | February 11, 2009 5:47 PM | Report abuse

Agreed, we do not want to trade future picks for this year. Always lose value and we have other resources to tap before dipping into next years draft.

Posted by: 1footballguru | February 11, 2009 5:54 PM | Report abuse

Also, one of Shuler's aides might want to explain to him that bipartisanship is a two-way street. Typically in politics, there are reasons to be on the other side of an issue, no matter how seemingly unjustifiable such a stance might appear at the time.

Posted by: RedDMV | February 11, 2009 4:05 PM
============================================
Shuler is a dope. He only ran as a Democrat after deciding it would be easier than running as a repuke. I don't want to hear what the dimwitted SJKer has to say about anything.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | February 11, 2009 6:43 PM | Report abuse

You know how teams get better...

They draft often and well

They sing talent

When they trade, they trade when players have value.

Having said all of that...losing Carlos Rogers to a trade will not keep this team out of a Super Bowl

I heard Doc Walker say that he'd field offers for Santana Moss because of what value he would bring. He suggested that if stays, he would use him more to return punts.

I agree with this...After all, what have we won with the offensive talent we have. Other than Moss, name one offense player that strikes fear in the defense.

Here's who I would fear:

If I saw Sproles catch a screen, I pissin' may pants

If I saw Brandon Jacobs running down hill, I'd piss my pants

Posted by: rickyroge | February 11, 2009 7:17 PM | Report abuse

If I saw Brandon Jacobs running down hill, I'd piss my pants

Posted by: rickyroge | February 11, 2009 7:17 PM
===========================================
Before our OL broke down (and before CP took a hairball torpedo to the knee), C.P. was leaving Jacobs in the dust.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | February 11, 2009 7:24 PM | Report abuse

'...Again, what makes you think the people who messed up five top picks last year will suddenly turn into geniuses this year?'


Posted by: TheCork | February 11, 2009 5:47 PM

Fact is, bro', that no matter how we feel about'em, the Wizards of Redskins Park will do the draft picking up until the Dan Man changes his mind.

It seems to me, fancy draft-trades are apart of what they like to do.

Me: I learn my lesson and take my four picks and leave draft day with a rt, dt, c/g, and wlb.

But we all know that's no gonna happen.

What I'd like to see is some sort of analysis that dictates what's the best thing for a GM: staying put or making trades on draft day.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 11, 2009 8:49 PM | Report abuse

F Heath Shuler

Posted by: chrislarry | February 11, 2009 8:56 PM | Report abuse

rickyroge

"...You know how teams get better...When they trade, they trade when players have value..."

Posted by: rickyroge | February 11, 2009 7:17 PM


The 1st post I submitted to this blog offered up Doc Walker's thesis as a way to acquire talent and re-work the Redskins' roster: that a team that is as old and talent poor as the Skins doesn't have an 'untouchable' player on the roster.

I'm quite sure it's crossed some folks minds in te FO that #47, #89, and #22 are players of value. And if the team isn't winning with them, it's hard to argue hat they're 'untouchable'.

In the case of trading #47, cap issues make trading him impossible. Thing is, he could probably get the most value in terms of draft picks.

In the case of trading #22, the team has no internal replacement and has a shaky starter in Fred Smoot who suddenly becomes extremely important. Too, Shawn Springs and his high cap number gets the upper hand in any argument to cut him if you trade CR. In other words, trading #22 exposes the team at the corner back spot--bad idea all around.

Trading #89 means you're saying, "Randle El or D Thomas or M Kelly is going to stand up and replace his production."

Yeah, right on that one.

All of this means the team should just sit tight, hope last year's draft class shows it has something, and conducts itself in a pragmatic way during FA.

No matter what Mr. Walker says, trading #22, #47, and #89 is not what the doctor ordered.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 11, 2009 9:15 PM | Report abuse

The doctor orders the Skins to choose wisely.

(Because we've had enough of this, already!)
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | February 11, 2009 9:50 PM | Report abuse

Nice Points MISTAMOE, but...

We do this every year...we "sit tight" and think we're a RT or a Guard away. What are we going to win with ARE, Moss and Thrash? They have to play their young players...no matter what. This offense has basically been together since 2004.

Posted by: rickyroge | February 11, 2009 9:55 PM | Report abuse

So, if I'm correct about this Byron is on the regular squad right? You can only be on the practice squad if you have less than 2 years in the NFL.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | February 11, 2009 10:33 PM | Report abuse

scampbell1975,

Correct. Brian collects his money IF he makes the team. No chance for the practice squad this season.

Posted by: bangkokben | February 11, 2009 10:47 PM | Report abuse

Look man I think it really isnt that difficult:

Defense:
-Go after Peppers in free agency...That will be your only big splash
-Go after either Dansby, Channing Crowder,or Michael Boley from the falcons to solve your OLB problem and you can get all of those guys for a good price
-I think you keep carlos and release Springs to get some cap room to sign those other guys (I will contradict myself later in this post)
-Resign Hall and Evans
-Apparently they might not release Griffin which I am ok with so you are looking at a solid line (although I think Monty and Golston can hold down the fort), a good secondary, and a good trio of linebackers. The D will be even better despite losing Springs, Washington, and Jtaylor

Offense:
-If one of the big 4 OT's is available at pick 13 (Smith, Monroe, Smith, Oher) you have to take him and plug him in at RT right away.
-I know earlier I said we should keep Rogers but if we do trade him and get a second rounder, Maybe we could trade our second rounder and our 5th rounder (and if no one bites on the 5th maybe deal our 3rd rounder instead) to move up into the late first round to try to get Duke Robinson who you could also plug in right away on the line. I know people say hold onto our picks but do you really think Vinny is going to find a gem in the 5th or even the 3rd round. You get two legitimate starters right from the get go who you can keep for a long time. Your O-Line is instantly a ton better. If the team you are trading with goes for the second and fifth round pick then you draft a D linemen with the 3rd. Next year you use your picks on almost all Dlinemen and maybe draft another DB to replace Springs once we release him next year.

Oline- Samuels, Robinson, Rabach, Thomas or Rinehart, Oher
Then you try to leave the rest of your offense alone and see what happens.

If you do this you are only signing 2 free agents and picking up 4 draft picks. We could afford that once we make cuts. No reason to believe the team couldnt compete next year

Posted by: jeffco01 | February 11, 2009 11:39 PM | Report abuse

This needs no introduction.

Fellow Cerrato loathers, enjoy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scJsSLtYCe8

Posted by: SonnyFan | February 12, 2009 12:02 AM | Report abuse

Moe -- you got it right. You don't trade to solve one problem and create another.

Trade Santana? It means your best WR is Antwaan Randle El ... by a lot.

Trade Cooley? Fred Davis couldn't beat Todd Yoder out of bed or on the field.

Trade Rogers? The secondary was THE strength of this team. There are scenarios where Rogers wouldn't be missed as much, but they are risky at best. Let Rogers go and Springs and Hall (if they can sign him) are the starters. Not bad. Except Springs is expensive, aging and missed a lot of games last season with injuries. Which leaves Smoot and Hall as the CBs with Tryon or Kareem Moore as the nickel back. Ummm, that isn't a pretty picture. Unless you can get some pretty good value for Rogers, the risk isn't worth the reward. And lastly, changing the chemistry back there carries risks. When the Skins let Ryan Clark go, most people up here had no problem and were looking forward to the upgrade. Turns out Clark is a great 'chemistry' player, a starter, and just earned himself a ring.

Yeah, trading #22, #47 or #89 makes no sense

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 12:06 AM | Report abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scJsSLtYCe8

from wiki:

Acting Career
Cerrato had a lead role in the 1994 film Kindergarten Ninja.[[1]] Cerrato played Sergeant Antonelli, a jean-jacket-wearing, popped-collar-sporting, tough-on-drugs cop with a heart for kids. The performance was stellar, and many wonder why he now focuses solely on football, where he is currently enjoying a lead role as the draft-pick-squandering, free-agent-bust-signing, radio-show-hosting-on-the-Monday-after-games VP of Football Operations.


Posted by: SonnyFan | February 12, 2009 12:20 AM | Report abuse

Good grief, I still can't imagine why the Skins would seriously consider trading Carlos Rogers.

They need to work their butts off to retain the top four: Hall, Rogers, Springs (at a lower dollar amount than whatever his deal currently says he'll get for '09), and Smoot... yes, eventually Springs and Smoot will give way to the kids who are coming up, but none of those kids looked anywhere near ready when we saw them this past season.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | February 12, 2009 1:29 AM | Report abuse

It's not worth getting a RT @ 13. We need more bang for the buck.........

Posted by: 4thFloor | February 11, 2009 3:19 PM

This sounds like Vinny thinking. I'd be pretty happy if we were able to get an 8-10 year starter at RT with #13.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | February 11, 2009 3:59 PM | Report abuse

4th Floor - Smith, Smith, Monroe and Oher are all tackles - and we don't need a left tackle. Samuels has that locked up for the next 4-5 years. We desperately need a right tackle. Im not opposed to signing one (Vernon Carey), but we need one one way or another.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 11, 2009 4:00 PM

I still think Heyer will surprise us. You are always looking to upgrade.

Maybe Vinny leaked out they're looking for a tackle with #13 to scare up Heyer. Ever thought of that?

Posted by: 4thFloor | February 12, 2009 1:41 AM | Report abuse

You think Heyer will surprise us in a good way, right, 4th?

I think the notion of O line at #13 is folly... this time last year we reached consensus up here that top priority was D line and that's how they'd draft... and then of course they, uh, all but ignored D line in the draft. Vinny's probably pulling the old okey-doke on this one.

Things will make more sense after free agency. Or maybe they won't make more sense, but they will be more clear. Or something.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | February 12, 2009 1:53 AM | Report abuse

Oh, and I agree on Heyer. I'm definitely rooting for the guy, I've been a fan ever since I saw him awkwardly take the field with those big dreadlocks and tiny shoulder pads and big womanly hips of his. He was thrust into a tough, tough situation as a rookie and I thought acquitted himself pretty well... though I was hoping he'd get established this past season and remove all doubt that he was the guy at right tackle.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | February 12, 2009 1:56 AM | Report abuse

Wall Street is predicting Six Flags files for bankruptcy and goes under in 2009. Question is has Danny Boy made a good decision since his dad's friends and advisers gave him the ole heave ho? He hasn't made too many good decisions since.

Maybe the 6 Flags Chap 7 filing will result in him selling the Deadskins!
And then he and Vinnie can move to NYC and live their alternate lifestyle in peace.

Posted by: sheepherder | February 12, 2009 7:26 AM | Report abuse

4thfloor

'...I still think Heyer will surprise us.'

I certainly hope he does.

Heyer is an interesting case. If the FO thinks he's a starting rt-and remember--Zorn wanted him to start--then all the draft scenarios having the Skins taking Orakpo at 13 or trading down to get another pick and Penn State's de/olb Maybin are dead on.

It would seem in year 4, Heyer should 'get it' and step up and take to spot for himself. The guy has to be thinking, "It's time for my payday."--money he'll only get as a servicable starter

What will help is if the Skins play Fred Davis alongside him and see the both of them as apart of the solution to fixing the right side of the line. Davis might not get all the playbook, but given his size, he can start his career as a blocking tight end and move on from there.

Heyer's improvement also means the team avoids Vernon Carey and takes a center/guard type with the third pick. Moe likes Antione Caldwell-Bama for that choice if he's there.

Moves like these--and Rhino figuring out the lg position during the offseason-- would shut up a lot of folks in this blog.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 12, 2009 8:14 AM | Report abuse

Sorry, but Heyer and Rhinehart are not starting caliber lineman.

Rhinehart couldn't sniff the field last year at all, even in meaningless games, and Heyer isn't more than a backup at this point, not ready or complete enough of a tackle for a full 16 games.

We need a REAL RT, either via FA or #13.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 8:20 AM | Report abuse

ryp, I'd prefer to see what Rhinehardt can do in an actual game, before declaring him unable. In those meaningless games, Kelly, Rhinehard, Jackson, a lot of guys didn't see the field, which in hind-sight was a big mistake by the coach.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 8:26 AM | Report abuse

Greg,

I agree, I also think Heyer can be a starter he has filled in nicely the last two years and had he not gotten hurt he would of been the starting RT all year.

Posted by: Flounder21 | February 12, 2009 8:31 AM | Report abuse

yeah, I definitely think at least Rhino should have got some real playing time to see what he has.... all the same, I'd still like AT LEAST 3 new lineman total on both sides of the ball when next year comes around....

Whether that means we sign 1 or 2 FAs.... or trade back... or trade Carlos for a 2nd, or whatever..... I'd like at least a new RT and LG who are GOOD YOUNG players, not just stopgaps....

We all know that Samuels and Randy Thomas are starting, and a new center will probably need a year of tutelage under Casey before taking over the reigns.....

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 8:34 AM | Report abuse

Heyer needs to learn to anchor better in pass pro, and he needs to learn to run block better. I think he's got talent, there's no denying that. Just needs to have that talent refined.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 8:34 AM | Report abuse

"This was as bright and garish a Carolina-blue jump suit as Raymond Felton could wear. What, he thought he was something special?

Wait. He was something special Wednesday -- an assist and two rebounds short of the Charlotte Bobcats' first triple-double. His 15 points, nine assists and eight rebounds, plus five steals, led the Bobcats to an easy 101-89 victory over the Washington Wizards."


LMAO


you weak Wizards fans


what happened!?! Yall almost let RAYMOND FELTON get a triple double!


take THAT REDDMV

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 8:36 AM | Report abuse

I just don't get how Rhino goes from playing fairly well in pre-season, to he's not ready at the end of the year. That doesn't make sense to me??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 8:38 AM | Report abuse

I think Heyer has progressed every year, for a UFA he is really been all a bonus in terms of play time and quality.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 8:42 AM | Report abuse

I think that the Rhino's issue is more one of the strength of play of the starters and Bugg's fear of young linemen.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 8:46 AM | Report abuse

Strength of play of the starters? Did we have any of that? Even Samuels, despite being in the pro bowl (joke) was starting to show his age.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 8:54 AM | Report abuse

al, if thats the case, then buges needs to go. if he can't get young linemen ready to play, and can't feel he can trust them, then we're doomed. So that essentially means that if the team picks Oher, or Smith, they'll ride the bench. Sorry, thats 1 step forward, and 2 steps back.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 8:59 AM | Report abuse

I keep hearing that Bugel is the obstacle to our young talent playing.
Nothing I saw on the field last year indicates that that is correct -- the only young talent worth debating was Heyer, and while I wouldn't describe him as a significant downgrade from Jansen, his play pre- and post- injury didn't show anything like 'upgrade'.
And the revelation that there's significant doubt about Rinehart -- which should be a given for all the Cerrato haters -- is clearly the reason why they didn't put him in those last couple of weeks when they were already playing reserves at LT and RT.
So - while the team has "failed" to use high draft picks on OL, it's not like they don't have a bunch of young guys for Bugel to coach up. Obviously, these guys are not elite talent -- but other than Mark May, who was the consensus 1st round draft pick on the Hogs?

Posted by: daggar | February 12, 2009 9:12 AM | Report abuse

here is what I found in terms of who has allowed the most sacks on this team. The # on the front is where they ranked in the league. And I am giving you the URL. According to this RT and C is our highest need (most sacks allowed especially when you go by a per-game rate). Sadly I cant find info on Heyer or our other linemen who got playing time.

http://www.sports-boards.net/forums/showthread.php?t=153319

6. Chris Samuels (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts) .25 a game
17. Pete Kendall (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) .188 per game
31. Casey Rabach (Redskins) 5.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) .344 per game
19. Randy Thomas (Redskins) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) .25 a game
22. Jon Jansen (Redskins) 6.5 sacks allowed (11 starts) .591 per game

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 9:16 AM | Report abuse

that jansen stat is almost laughable, why JJ kept getting the start at RT after Heyer was healthy is a mystery to me....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 9:21 AM | Report abuse

So the starting 5 guys are responsible for 22/38 of the sacks the team allowed.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 9:25 AM | Report abuse

What makes that Jansen stat worse is that most games Samuels is on an island with little to no help, while JJ usually had someone next to him....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 9:27 AM | Report abuse

rypien11

'...Sorry, but Heyer and Rhinehart are not starting caliber lineman...'

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 8:20 AM |


Your points notwithstanding, all indications seem to suggest the FO is going to pursue the path of seeing just what they have in both Rhino and Heyer.

Remember: Vinny has been quoted as saying he believes in last year's draft (especially players like Rob Jackson) and wants to see the players he selected on the field, regardless of what folks think about them.

Like with last season's draft class, Vinny is determined to prove folks wrong and get something out of the players on the roster: that means all the fancy money-burning free agency plans and crafty draft scenarios are all just talk.

Yeah: adding Vernon Carey or Jordan Gross or Dahl or any number of guys would be a nice move on the part of the FO.

But the economy is everything: and the Redskins, like every other business in America, are trying to make the most of what they've got for fear of spending the money in FA.

Remember: there's what the team should do and what it probably will do. And whatever it does, it won't please everybody.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 12, 2009 9:35 AM | Report abuse

You have to figure that the other 18 sacks are a mix of Cooley Geisinger, Portis, Heyer, and a couple of other dudes.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 9:36 AM | Report abuse

"Remember: Vinny has been quoted as saying he believes in last year's draft (especially players like Rob Jackson) and wants to see the players he selected on the field, regardless of what folks think about them"

Isn't that really the only way you can judge them, is by seeing what they can do when on the field?? I mean, Kelly was a healthy scratch the last 3 games, when the offense was just purring like a kitten. Essentially, this upcoming season will be like having another large crop of rookies, given that CR, RJ, MK, JT, and the guys they draft this year will all be hopefully on the field.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 9:39 AM | Report abuse

I can proudly state that Leigh Torrence and Marcus Mason gave up ZERO SACKS last year, and have given up a total of ZERO SACKS in their storied careers!

And where are they at? YEP, KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK VINNY

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 9:42 AM | Report abuse

Moe - Youre right in the sense Vinny will undoubtedly stick to his draft class guns. But, this team has shown it is not afraid to spend FA money, as we always seem to be at cap maximum.

I would rather have Carey than Gross (cheaper and younger), and if we cut our dead weight (Springs, Marcus, Griff, Taylor, Thrash), we should have more than enough room for a FA or two. I'd definitely rather have him than Heyer/JJ.... and a new LG as well.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 9:48 AM | Report abuse

If its me I still re-tender Kendall for another year just to be safe

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 9:51 AM | Report abuse

I heard it was Bugel and Gibbs philosophy to "redshirt" rookie offensive linemen. Rinehart was inactive almost every game. I'm sure he will get a chance to earn either the starting or backup LG position in training camp. However, we will not see more of him unless he starts playing special teams. Plus backups need to play more than one position on the line.

This is Heyer's third year as backup OT. I expect him to improve from last year and continue be the backup/special teams LT. He's a solid backup who has not shown consistency when playing RT -- particularly in the rushing game.

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 9:55 AM | Report abuse

alex

I agree with the point about Buges wanting to rely on older guys on the o-line.

It makes wonder how many guys got cut during the summer because Joe B wanted experience over upside/youth.

Andrew Crummey--a player the Bengals jumped on--might prove this point to be true.

I gots nothing but respect for Joe B.

But maybe the day he moves on is near.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 12, 2009 9:56 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 9:39 AM | Report abuse

To an extent yes, if you are talking about a guy with talent and potential that is showing in practice they deserve a shot on the field to be judged. But if the guy isn't showing in practice that they are capable and talented they don't deserve a shot on the field just because they were a draft pick. That's like saying you or I have NFL caliber talent we just haven't got a shot on the field so we can't be judged. There is a reason coaches "be talking about practice" if guys like Fred Davis, Thomas, and Kelly can't learn the play book and can't outperform guys like Thrash and Yoder they don't deserve shots on the field. There are plenty of great athletes in the league (just look at the Raiders) but good teams are built on more than athletes. That's what Spurrier figured out, you can get away with a lot in college by just having superior natural ability, but in the NFL everyone is a world-class athlete, you have to be able to do the little things to succeed. And no, they don't deserve a shot until they figure that out. And in a case like Rhino, if its obvious the guy can't play, and let's be honest if he's looking bad in practice against our Dline, what would he look like in a game against a real Dline, then again, he doesn't deserve a shot just because he was a draft pick.

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 9:56 AM | Report abuse

forgive the ignorance but do guards do much on special teams? I mean I assume they block on FG attempts but thats it.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 10:00 AM | Report abuse

3-4 Beef up Montgomery, put Alexander at one end Evans at the other (would have very strong DE). Sign Suggs, put Fletcher and Blades in the middle and see if Macintosh stays healthy. (could be the big question)

Reserves

Wilson LB
Daniels (one more year) DE
Jackson DE
Goldston (beef up) DT
Sign a inexpensive experienced 3-4 LB

Wait till next year and try and draft Terrence Cody

This way you can use all of this years draft picks on OL, maybe a DT if he is available.

You have made only one major FA signing that could impact your whole team and build your OL through the draft.

Posted by: oldtimer4 | February 12, 2009 10:03 AM | Report abuse

zj, understood, but all we kept hearing at the end of the year was how Davis was looking good in practice how Thomas was looking good in practice, etc. With Kendall having bad knees there was NO REASON not to have Rhino ready to go in practice every wednesday, when PK would rest his knees..

Not to mention if they're not looking good in practice, then what are the coach's doing to correct these problems. What extra work is the player being told to do to 'get themselves' ready for games??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 10:06 AM | Report abuse

zjfr2

that's mostly true


but

what about the last game of the year this past year against SanFran? Why in the world were they not playing? Even if they suck and get destroyed, at least we'll an idea. Maybe they're gamers!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 10:12 AM | Report abuse

we should trade all of our offensive starters for 11 first round draft picks + a couple 2nd/3rd rounders

then trade some of our backups for 2nd rounders + a couple 4th/5th rounders


our FO is so stupid

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 10:20 AM | Report abuse

what about the last game of the year this past year against SanFran? Why in the world were they not playing? Even if they suck and get destroyed, at least we'll an idea. Maybe they're gamers!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 10:12 AM | Report abuse

On that I completely agree, I thought after the Cincy loss it was time to get Rhino, Davis, Kelly, Thomas, Jackson, Wilson, and Moore on the field a lot if not start. Whether or not they had shown they earned a shot, the reality is this roster is in need of a major overhaul (sure would be nice to have 10 picks this year and not pick a 5'2" corner, a punter, 2 wideouts, 2 safeties, and a tight end with them......that list is almost comical) and it was becoming obvious from about week 10 on, Zorn's stubbornness and I think fear of if he ran the table in reverse he might get canned prevented that and it was stupid.

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 10:24 AM | Report abuse

of course you completely agree

I'm not RedDMV


I'm THE TRUTH

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 10:30 AM | Report abuse

***NBA POST***

F U Turd...

I would talk trash but the 'zards are 11-41. It'll be nice though to see Jamison, Butler, Arenas, and hopefully some developed young talent (McGee, McGuire, Blatche, maybe Crittenton also) all playing together next year - if they can stay healthy.

What could I possibly say?

Oh yeah.

F U and F the Bobbycats.

IF they do make the playoffs they'll either face Boston, Cleveland, or Orlando anyway.

I don't see Charlotte any higher than the 6th seed in the east. Bobcats are the third team in the Southeast division.

***END NBA POST***

Posted by: RedDMV | February 12, 2009 10:33 AM | Report abuse

How about this plan:

Trade every single player on the team over 30 for a draft pick. No exceptions.

Start over. Suck for 3 years but then...

Actually have a sustainable future so we're not struggling to cobble together mediocrity every year over and over.

Posted by: mac2j | February 12, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

3-4 Beef up Montgomery, put Alexander at one end Evans at the other (would have very strong DE). Sign Suggs, put Fletcher and Blades in the middle and see if Macintosh stays healthy. (could be the big question)

Posted by: oldtimer4 | February 12, 2009 10:03 AM

This is a terrible idea...this isn't Madden we're talking about. Just because a guy can play at DT doesn't automatically mean he can play DE in a 3-4. The only guy I'd have any faith in playing DE in a 3-4 is Daniels and he can't stay on the field. Rocky is too small to play OLB in a 3-4 and this team can't field 3 starting caliber LBs, much less 4 with the skill set required to play a 3-4. I've just resigned myself to the fact that this team will struggle in '09 and as long as the current FO structure exists.

Posted by: brownwood26 | February 12, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

Yeah, why not cut the whole team and sign undrafted free agents for the NFL minimum. The Skins would still be last in the division and they might even get the number one draft pick next year...

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 10:35 AM | Report abuse

RedDMV just got Truth'd!!


Also looking for some feedback on a new slogan I'm looking into :

"I'm The Truth, baby!"

Please rate on a scale of 1-10. Thanks.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 10:37 AM | Report abuse

4thfloor

'...I still think Heyer will surprise us.'

I certainly hope he does.

Heyer is an interesting case. If the FO thinks he's a starting rt-and remember--Zorn wanted him to start--then all the draft scenarios having the Skins taking Orakpo at 13 or trading down to get another pick and Penn State's de/olb Maybin are dead on.

It would seem in year 4, Heyer should 'get it' and step up and take to spot for himself. The guy has to be thinking, "It's time for my payday."--money he'll only get as a servicable starter

What will help is if the Skins play Fred Davis alongside him and see the both of them as apart of the solution to fixing the right side of the line. Davis might not get all the playbook, but given his size, he can start his career as a blocking tight end and move on from there.

Heyer's improvement also means the team avoids Vernon Carey and takes a center/guard type with the third pick. Moe likes Antione Caldwell-Bama for that choice if he's there.

Moves like these--and Rhino figuring out the lg position during the offseason-- would shut up a lot of folks in this blog.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 12, 2009 8:14 AM | Report abuse


I'd like to see this pan out. Then taking Orakapo with 13 makes sense in more ways than 1. We all know that Phillip Daniels is a beast in the gym, and it's rumored that Orakapo is a workout machine. Having Philips working with him for a year could do wonders for the kid, allowing him to put on the weight that scouts say he can without losing his burst or speed.

Those two together could work out real well.

Posted by: Devo2 | February 12, 2009 10:38 AM | Report abuse

How about this plan:

Trade every single player on the team over 30 for a draft pick. No exceptions.

Start over. Suck for 3 years but then...

Actually have a sustainable future so we're not struggling to cobble together mediocrity every year over and over.

Posted by: mac2j | February 12, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

with cap penalties we literally couldn't field a team, we'd have to forfeit the season

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 10:41 AM | Report abuse

I think that the real test of Zorn will be seeing if he learned anything next year like Gibbs did in year 2, adjusting to his team.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 10:42 AM | Report abuse

I do expect Zorn and his staff to be better prepared. He was hired almost a year ago and didn't participate in the year end player evaluations. In addition, the coaching staff had to focus on teaching a new offensive to the starters. That left little time to spend with backups and rookies. I'm hoping the offensive continuity will allow the coaches to spend more time teaching and evaluating the (younger) players...

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 10:51 AM | Report abuse

This will actually be year 3 for Heyer.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | February 12, 2009 11:01 AM | Report abuse

The only players I expect the Skins to take at #13 are OT Oher, SLB Curry, DT Raji, OT Monroe, or one of the OT Smith's. If none of those players are available, then they should try to trade down...

I'm on the fence about selecting Orakpo at #13. He needs to show the scouts and coaches that can could play SLB.

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 11:04 AM | Report abuse

This is a terrible idea...this isn't Madden we're talking about. Just because a guy can play at DT doesn't automatically mean he can play DE in a 3-4. The only guy I'd have any faith in playing DE in a 3-4 is Daniels and he can't stay on the field. Rocky is too small to play OLB in a 3-4 and this team can't field 3 starting caliber LBs, much less 4 with the skill set required to play a 3-4. I've just resigned myself to the fact that this team will struggle in '09 and as long as the current FO structure exists.

Posted by: brownwood26 | February 12, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

Shows how much you know about those players. Evans is the exact type of end you want for a 3-4. Alexander is athletic enough to make the switch. You have Suggs as your SOLB. I didn't say this would make the Skin's the overnight Steelers, but it would address the strength that it already has. Blades and Fletcher would make a very strong inside team of run stuffers. Do a little research, before you spout off. Harrison weighs only 240 and there are a number of 3-4 OLB in that weight with the oppposite OLB being bigger

Posted by: oldtimer4 | February 12, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

Orakpo is listed at 260. He's being talked up as a 3-4 outside linebacker. Hmmmm. Sounds familiar.

Like it or not, the skins are stuck with Carter for a year or two at RDE. That means they need someone with a lil more beef on the left side.

If Orakpo could add 20 pounds without pulling an A-Rod or losing his quicks, we'll talk--but undersized DE's aren't the answer in the NFC East.

Much as I'd love to see the team pick up a game changer at #13, it has so many needs due to inept drafting and trading they really HAVE to trade down and get more bodies.

The BEST thing that could happen is for an Orakpo, one of the four top OTs, or some other guy other teams see as a "must have" be there at 13. Then the 'skins make a favorable trade for draft picks and or bodies.

And please please PLEASE,don't squander future picks with more panic moves like the Taylor trade..

Posted by: TheCork | February 12, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

Gee, I wonder how the falcons learned a new offense with a rookie QB, rookie coach, and new personnel everywhere hired during the offseason. I wonder how the Dolphins signed a QB at the end of training camp and turned a 1-15 season into a playoff run with a new qb, new system, and a rookie head coach. I wonder how the Ravens went to the playoffs with a rookie qb, rookie head coach and a new system.

The problems were twofold for the Skins. First, not only was Zorn a rookie HC with a new system but his entire staff had little experience at their new roles other than Buges. If Zorn was smart, he would have hired an experience west coast offensive coordinator to help him, not a offensive staff of buddies. Secondly, Zorn while seaming quirky, cooky, open and honest through his rookies, his 10 year RT and a team leader, and then his only truly consistent star talent on offense and the only reason he won the games that he did all under the bus. He was an incredible defensive effort against Philly from losing this team entirely and being run out of town on a rail. Anybody who watched that Cincy game after that week of controversy saw an uninspired effort in a must win game. Gibbs did a lot of things wrong in 2.0 but that never happened nor would it because Gibbs knew how to manage people and his players loved him and would run through a wall for him. Zorn has a long long way to go in that department, and from what I saw, it wasn't like he blew anybody away in the X's and O's department either.

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 11:06 AM | Report abuse

rypien11

'...Sorry, but Heyer and Rhinehart are not starting caliber lineman...'

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 8:20 AM |

People keep saying this but where's the proof? The guy has started and done very well in my opinion. When he took over for Samuels, he held down the LT spot. I don't believe he gave up a sack. People will surely harp on his ability in the run game but even with or without Heyer starting CP's longest run was 30 yards. Is that all on one guy? I saw Buges on TV the other night and he said the biggest thing Heyer had to work on was staying healthy because he hasn't been able to complete a season without injury.

Posted by: learnedhand1 | February 12, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

The capitol of my great state, South Carolina, is now rounding up anyone associated with the Micheal Phelp's pot smoking picture on a witch hunt.

http://www.thestate.com/local/story/682695.html?pageNum=4&&&mi_pluck_action=page_nav#Comments_Container


Apparently our state was recently in the top 5 or top 10 in multiple violent crimes (rape, assault, murder) and Richmond County is a strong part of that.

But do no worry innocent citizens, Sherrif Lott will track down someone who smoked marijuana four or five months ago and everyone involved (even if you weren't there but at one time rented the house).

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 11:10 AM | Report abuse

If you want the team to switch to 3-4 read that story on NFL.com about it that was posted in this string.

TT11 ya Sherif White trash who wants to get his own special on the cops so he can be on the tv, down there is a stain on your already highly stained state. he said evilly

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

I just read about that Truth. Sheriff Lott sounds like a complete hick toolbox trying to make a name for himself. From politicians on down to law enforcement, the people in charge of things are a complete joke.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | February 12, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

I'm The Truth, baby!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 11:31 AM | Report abuse

samuels is one of the guys we can get value draft picks from a team looking to make a run. Like the cards, who need a LT. we could trade samuels for pick 31 and 63 im sure they would love to have that deal

Posted by: DaFunBunch | February 12, 2009 11:32 AM | Report abuse

Shows how much you know about those players. Evans is the exact type of end you want for a 3-4. Alexander is athletic enough to make the switch. You have Suggs as your SOLB. I didn't say this would make the Skin's the overnight Steelers, but it would address the strength that it already has. Blades and Fletcher would make a very strong inside team of run stuffers. Do a little research, before you spout off. Harrison weighs only 240 and there are a number of 3-4 OLB in that weight with the oppposite OLB being bigger

Posted by: oldtimer4 | February 12, 2009 11:05 AM

Wow...if you thought I was spouting off before check this:

Unless you've actually seen Evans play end in a 3-4, there's no evidence to support your claim that he'd be good there. Yeah, he has the size to play there, but there are different gap assignments and techniques that go into that position and you don't know if he'll pick that up or not.

And get over your wet dream about Suggs because he's not leaving Baltimore. That organization knows what it's doing and is their priority resigning. Move on.

Harrison is undersized, but let's not make him out to be the prototype 3-4 OLB because he's not. He fits in that particular system well and is short and stout, allowing him excellent leverage on this opponent. Rocky is taller and about 10 pounds lighter, negating the possibility of that advantage in the 3-4. IF he could play in a 3-4 at all (and I doubt he could), he'd have to play the middle. I've heard he's better suited to play in a Cover 2 defense, WAAAY different from a 3-4.

So before you insult my football IQ, maybe learn a little bit about what you're talking about.

Posted by: brownwood26 | February 12, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Did you hear the one about the po-dunk county sherrif who wanted his own TV show?.......

.....he had octuplets...


....dohp!.....

....maps......

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 12, 2009 11:42 AM | Report abuse

It sounds like some of the arrests this sheriff has made are illegal too, in terms of arrests and taking property with out warrants. It would be supremely fun if he gets arrested himself for violating the law for a minor possession charge.

Posted by: alex35332 | February 12, 2009 11:50 AM | Report abuse

Trade Samuels? Um, no.

First of all, his release fee is $10M.

Second of all, hes our only decent lineman, and LT is the 2nd most important position on the field.

Third, we trade him and create ANOTHER position of need? We fill his absence with a draft pick who MIGHT be as good as him?

Oh boy.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Yeah but if we keep him think of all the expense of retro-fitting the park for wheel chairs!!

....cartography....

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 12, 2009 11:58 AM | Report abuse

For those trying to trade guys: we can't do that. Nobody wants key players on an 8-8 team. The only team that does stuff like that is...the Redskins. So just know that we're stuck with the old, injury prone veterans with high salaries not because we need them but because we have to play them. Their cap numbers are forcing that to happen.

The ONLY fix is getting a qualified GM that doesn't do radio shows or crappy after school specials on YouTube and taking 3-4 years to draft young inexpensive talent while slowly shedding the expensive old guys. You can't do either rapidly, IT TAKES TIME.

Posted by: brownwood26 | February 12, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Also looking for some feedback on a new slogan I'm looking into :

"I'm The Truth, baby!"

Please rate on a scale of 1-10. Thanks.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 10:37 AM | Report abuse

On a scale from 1 to 10, that's an 11!

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 12:05 PM | Report abuse

On a scale from 1 to 10, that's an 11!

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 12:05 PM | Report abuse

Oops, that was a typo. Meant to say 1.1.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Agreed, Brownwood. I'm not hearing alot of offers, though I'm sure if they're coming - they ain't worth the loss...

And Fritzy, can't you just make 10 louder?

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 12, 2009 12:09 PM | Report abuse

For those trying to trade guys: we can't do that. Nobody wants key players on an 8-8 team. The only team that does stuff like that is...the Redskins. So just know that we're stuck with the old, injury prone veterans with high salaries not because we need them but because we have to play them. Their cap numbers are forcing that to happen.

The ONLY fix is getting a qualified GM that doesn't do radio shows or crappy after school specials on YouTube and taking 3-4 years to draft young inexpensive talent while slowly shedding the expensive old guys. You can't do either rapidly, IT TAKES TIME.

Posted by: brownwood26 | February 12, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

I completely agree, unfortunately it won't happen, you know that Snyder got hot and bothered after that 6-2 start.

If Vinny has half a brain though maybe he can realize the transition doesn't mean we have to be 2-14 either. The resigning of Hall, Evans, Monte, Gholston, along with the signing of a 3 or 4 younger second tier (Canty, Dansby, a guard or two, etc.) guys to 2 or 3 year deals, don't chase the big names that will require the huge contracts, shed Taylor,Springs, Washington, Griff this year, hope to unload Carter, Thomas, and Jansen next year and Portis and Moss the following year all the time keeping your full draft classes going heavy on Oline and front seven and you can get young quick and still have a very competitive team. We have youth at TE, secondary, QB, and receiver so adding cheap depth pieces for now at other spots while bringing in 15 picks on your Oline and front 7 over the next 3 years could fix us. But it will never happen, cause Vinny is a moron and Dan is impatient.

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

How’s this for a draft scenario, sorry if it’s already been suggested. Detroit decides to try and get both their LT and QB in the first round by grabbing one at #1 then using their second first round pick to move up to pick #13 to grab the other. Detroit may want to jump ahead of the Jets and Bucs to get the QB so it could be plausible. I’m not crazy about the skins trading down only because I don’t have faith in their FO to get it right as of yet, but Cleveland and Atlanta did a similar things the past two years ago when they grabbed both their LT and QB’s in the first round so who knows.

In this scenario if I were Detroit I might go OT first then Sanches 2nd. Any Stafford/Sanches fans can set me straight but how does a team that’s been as historically bad as the lions pick either Stafford who sounds like he’s a turnover machine with a great arm but a lot of ?’s or Sanches who’s only started one season at the first pick in the draft. Same goes for KC at #3 or any of the top 5 teams for that matter. I’d be scared to death to make that pick as a GM. Especially a first year GM like Martin Mayhew who has to follow the dubious drafting legacy of M.Millen.

Posted by: skinswest | February 12, 2009 12:31 PM | Report abuse

Zjfr2 - I have to take issue with the "It Takes Time" comment.

I believe the Dolphins have shown that a gargantuan turnaround is a matter of focus and proper ethic, not slow studied structure.

Talent is there - for every team. you may not be the most talented, but you can win if your talent is used properly.

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 12, 2009 12:32 PM | Report abuse

If we got Orakpo, would we use him at left end, or weak linebacker?

I really can't wait for FA to start. I hope we cut our fat soon.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 12:35 PM | Report abuse

wasn't my comment

but it does take time with only 4 picks, if you know we had made good picks last year along our lines with say 10 picks then it wouldn't take time but we don't have the ammo to reload with now, so it will take time.

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 12:35 PM | Report abuse

Zjfr2 - I have to take issue with the "It Takes Time" comment.

I believe the Dolphins have shown that a gargantuan turnaround is a matter of focus and proper ethic, not slow studied structure.

Talent is there - for every team. you may not be the most talented, but you can win if your talent is used properly.

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 12, 2009 12:32 PM | Report abuse

I can't back this up, but Miami was bad for several years. During that period of 2-3 years, they had to be getting some quality picks. Then last year they all fit together. I don't think it all happened last off-season.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

2008 NFL DRAFT REDDDUUUXXXXX

2nd Round #34 Curtis Lofton LB Oklahoma
2nd Round #48 DeSean Jackson WR Cal
2nd Round #51 Jason Jones DT Eastern Michigan
3rd Round #96 William Hayes DE Winston-Salem State
5th Round #124 Tony Hills OT Texas
6th Round #168 Thomas Brown RB Georgia
6th Round #180 Kareem Moore DB Nicholls State
6th Round #186 John Sullivan C Notre Dame
7th Round #242 Chris Horton S UCLA
7th Round #249 Clifton Smith PR/KR/RB Fresno State


I'm The Truth, baby!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

2008 NFL DRAFT REDDDUUUXXXXX

2nd Round #34 Curtis Lofton LB Oklahoma
2nd Round #48 DeSean Jackson WR Cal
2nd Round #51 Jason Jones DT Eastern Michigan
3rd Round #96 William Hayes DE Winston-Salem State
5th Round #124 Tony Hills OT Texas
6th Round #168 Thomas Brown RB Georgia
6th Round #180 Kareem Moore DB Nicholls State
6th Round #186 John Sullivan C Notre Dame
7th Round #242 Chris Horton S UCLA
7th Round #249 Clifton Smith PR/KR/RB Fresno State


I'm The Truth, baby!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

Truth1.1, how does the saying go...hindsight is 11:20, or something like that.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 1:12 PM | Report abuse

wow fred

sounds like you're jealous that I'm a Draft GENIUS

ask me this time next year and I'll tell you who we should've drafted in 2009's draft!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 1:16 PM | Report abuse

sounds like you're jealous that I'm a Draft GENIUS

You da man, Truth.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 1:22 PM | Report abuse

Are we allowed to talk to FAs from other teams before Feb 27th? Or do we have to wait until FA starts to even start negotiations.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Are we allowed to talk to FAs from other teams before Feb 27th? Or do we have to wait until FA starts to even start negotiations.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Not until midnight of the day it starts. That's why in the past Dan's airplane was making pickups around the country early in the morning.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 1:36 PM | Report abuse

why don't owners just give a player a solid contract then slip 'em money under the table or setup some lame "endorsement opportunity" that pays him a bunch more than the team could afford?

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

So then we can "talk" to them to say we WANT to "talk" to them, but we can't actually "TALK" to them until the 27th.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

why don't owners just give a player a solid contract then slip 'em money under the table or setup some lame "endorsement opportunity" that pays him a bunch more than the team could afford?

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

Because if you thought Spygate was a big deal, imagine the scandal doing what your suggesting, plus, there is absolutely no way you could keep it a secret.

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 1:44 PM | Report abuse

FROM ESPN AND PASTABELLY: (of course he can't go without a dig at the Skins):

Redskins will try to keep Hall

The Oakland Raiders paid DeAngelo Hall $8 million for only eight games in 2008. The Washington Redskins, however, are ready to throw even more money at the two-time Pro Bowl cornerback in an effort to keep him off the unrestricted market.

The agent for Hall will meet with Redskins' officials next week at the combine workouts in Indianapolis to begin contract discussions. The team is likely to make a contract offer at the time. Keeping Hall with a deal will preclude him from testing the free-agent market beginning on Feb. 27.

Hall, 25, was traded from the Atlanta Falcons to Oakland last year for a second-round pick in 2008 and a fifth-round choice in the 2009 draft. But after the Raiders signed him to a contract reported at seven years and $70 million, and paid Hall handsomely for eight games, they released him, feeling that he was a profound disappointment in the single-coverage system they prefer.

A five-year veteran, Hall then played seven games with the Redskins, where he served as the No. 3 or No. 4 cornerback behind starters Shawn Springs and Carlos Rogers. The Redskins also have veteran Fred Smoot at cornerback.

Whether a similar role with Washington in 2009 appeals to Hall, or whether he seeks a starting job again, remains to be seen. Retaining Hall would provide the Redskins one of the league's deepest cornerback corps for 2009.

The former Virginia Tech standout is a two-time Pro Bowl performer, named to the NFC all-star squad in 2005 and 2006. He was the Falcons' first-round choice in the 2004 draft, the eighth player selected overall.

Hall spent his first four NFL seasons with the Falcons before being traded to Oakland last spring spring. Following a career in Atlanta that was alternately brilliant and contentious, Hall was traded to the Raiders in a major housecleaning by the Falcons' new football management team.

Despite some past problems, Hall is generally viewed as a standout cover defender with enormous potential. He also possesses great speed and athleticism.

In eight games with the Raiders, and seven in Washington last season, Hall totaled 72 tackles and five interceptions. For his career, Hall has played in 72 regular-season games, with 304 tackles and 22 interceptions. He has scored one touchdown as a cornerback and can also be used as a punt returner.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 1:44 PM | Report abuse

You da man, Truth.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 1:22 PM


I'm going to assume that you meant to say "You da d0uche, Truth."

Posted by: RedDMV | February 12, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Well thats BS anyway he started the last 3-4 games he was no backup, if they sign him you better believe he will be a starter.

Posted by: Flounder21 | February 12, 2009 1:48 PM | Report abuse

ryp, I was unaware that len was still writing....he's so transparent.

I'm anxious for the team to start releasing guys to clear some cap space. I don't want the Redskins to be front runners, or anything, but I do want them to get some 2nd level guys.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 1:48 PM | Report abuse

Word Greg. Im eagerly awaiting the blog about us cutting guys - I'm afraid it wont be happening though.

I hope we land 2 or so 'above average' FAs - a la Vernon Carey, Jovan Haye, etc.

I wouldn't hate Nate Washington or a Saints WR either.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 1:55 PM | Report abuse

This statement - which appears to have come from ESPN is untrue:

"A five-year veteran, Hall then played seven games with the Redskins, where he served as the No. 3 or No. 4 cornerback behind starters Shawn Springs and Carlos Rogers."

Hall was a starter several games before the season ended.

Posted by: Lisa_R | February 12, 2009 1:58 PM | Report abuse

Its from ESPN - the same source that said in 2007 "Joe Gibbs may someday be a Hall of Fame coach".

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Lisa, you can't expect something along the lines of factual reporting when its coming from Len P. He's LONG had an issue with Snyder, and goes out of his way to bash the Redskins.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 2:07 PM | Report abuse

fredie

'...but Miami was bad for several years....then last year, they all fit together...'

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 12:42 PM


They didn't 'fit it all together': they just pounced on Chad Pennington when the clueless Jets made him availiable.

Do you think the Wizards of Redskins Park have the shrewd ability or guts to cast Campbell aside for an obvious upgrade should one come along?

No and hell no.

Letting Chad Pennington go only to see him wind up on an in division improving team was one of the dumbest moves made by any FO last year.

And the then supa bowl dreaming Jets did it just so they could 'rent' Brett Favre and the mythology that accompanies him for one year. Now, they got a new coach and the same wet dreams and no myth to sell to their annoying fanbase.

I bet Pennington's weak but accurate arm and vet leadership was worth at least four of the victories the team collected last year.

Otherwise, the Dolphins would've been starting 2nd year player Chad Henne at q-back and would be staring at the draft with hungry eyes just like the Skins will.

Only they now have a quarterback who knows how to win games and two of our picks for a player who has his own HOF mythology--J Taylor.

Just thinkl: B Parcells fleeced two teams in one year. What's the record for that?

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 12, 2009 2:08 PM | Report abuse

U tell 'em Moe!

The picks Miami had no one would have touched with a ten foot whale harpoon.

They stuck that team together with gum & a wiley vet. Oh, and they re-defined the wishbone...

That's called management & coaching and it's something we sorely lack.

Winning in this league isn't about what most people think about as talent - it's about using what you have to exploit another team's weakness and stopping the other team from doing same.

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 12, 2009 2:18 PM | Report abuse

so strange that pastarelli would get a story about the skins wrong.....wait no its not.

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 2:29 PM | Report abuse

You da man, Truth.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 1:22 PM


I'm going to assume that you meant to say "You da d0uche, Truth."

Posted by: RedDMV | February 12, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse
No, Red, I was really struck by the level of sophistication and the tremendous insight that the Truth showed in putting together his 2008 draft selections.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 2:30 PM | Report abuse

What are the odds we go after C Jason Brown from the Ravens (FA)? Will only be 26 at start of next year, and probably best available center.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

AND they have a lot of FAs to sign.... they can't afford all of them.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 2:32 PM | Report abuse

I doubt Fat Len was covering or watching any games while he was on the mend from his heart problems. He has no idea what DHall did while here. That being said I really hope they are going to show some fiscal restraint and offer a reasonable contract to him. Something in the area of what Corey Webster signed with the Giants for at the end of the year. And cut Springs right after.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | February 12, 2009 2:33 PM | Report abuse

Is Westbrook still developing? If not, he is just a warm body for training camp taking up a roster spot that someone else could be competing for. I mean, the guy has been on the developmental roster for two years and the only time we ever hear about him is when he plays the role of his running back brother on the scout team. Heck, if he is that close to being like his brother, why isn't he competing for a roster spot as a running back?

Posted by: RedSkinHead | February 12, 2009 2:34 PM | Report abuse

ryp, I'd be all for that.

I was reading somewhere about him that in the 2 head to head meetings with Haynesworth, Brown handled him both times.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 2:34 PM | Report abuse

Ryp, I would love that, and signing the guard from the Falcons. If they did those two moves, and Canty, I don't think they'd need to do much else, then they could get the RT at 13 and a LB in the 3rd.

Posted by: zjfr2 | February 12, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

What are the odds we go after C Jason Brown from the Ravens (FA)? Will only be 26 at start of next year, and probably best available center.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 2:31 PM


If we were smart Ryp. Then we could draft a OT or trade down and draft Duke Robinson and fill out with some DL and LB's with our other picks. Doubtful that will happen with the short bus front office.

Posted by: Posse81_83_84 | February 12, 2009 2:38 PM | Report abuse

fredie

'...but Miami was bad for several years....then last year, they all fit together...'

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 12:42 PM


They didn't 'fit it all together': they just pounced on Chad Pennington when the clueless Jets made him availiable.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 12, 2009 2:08 PM | Report abuse

What I'm saying is that the Dolphins were building their roster with high draft picks over a 2-3 year period, because with their terrible record over that time, they were getting higher picks in each round than most other teams. I just looked at their roster, and 34 players on their current roster have 3 or less years of experience.

I agree that Pennington was a major factor also. But my only point is that this didn't just happen last year. It has been developing over several years. When you are drafting in the top 5-10 picks of each round of the draft over several years, you should be getting quality players.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 2:38 PM | Report abuse

question ... do you trade London Fletcher for Marques Coston, straight up?

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 2:40 PM | Report abuse

What are the odds we go after C Jason Brown from the Ravens (FA)? Will only be 26 at start of next year, and probably best available center.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse
From what I've read, Ravens are planning to resign Brown.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 2:41 PM | Report abuse

or Marques Colston

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Thatd be a great pickup I think. There are enough good young lineman on both sides of the ball out there in FA that won't break the bank and would give us some mobility with what we want to do with #13.

Chris Canty would be good too. And Duke would prob still be available if we managed to trade down.

It doesn't seem that hard, does it? Sometimes I think the fans should just make the personnel decisions.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

question ... do you trade London Fletcher for Marques Coston, straight up?

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 2:40 PM | Report abuse
Fletcher is the glue of our D. And our D is the strenght of the team.

If you are writing off next year, and completely rebuilding, then yes.

But I don't think FO is ready to do that. And I'm certain that JZ is not ready to do that.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 2:46 PM | Report abuse

Orakpo would be a (backup) SLB with the Skins. They already have a WLB and DEs.

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Rational for Saints to get Fletcher. Saints offense is loaded, their defense is poor. Saints just hired GG and London and GG are clearly on the same page. It makes the Saints much more competitive right away. Losing Colston hurts them, but they've got several quality WRs.

For us, losing Fletcher hurts a bunch ... for 2-3 years. Colston has another decade in this league, and he solves our WR issue for years to come. We give up a stud for 2 years and getting one for a decade

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

siris, are you kidding me about Orakpo??

Have you seen him play??

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 2:50 PM | Report abuse

fredie

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

I live in the Dolphins' market in S Fla and watch their moves.

They only took advantage of the Jets' stupidity and Vinny Cerrato's lust for big names.

Plus: when you're a bad team, you play an easy schedule--that helped them as well.

Then, they went into the draft and loaded up on offensive and defensive linemen--and there is the lesson for us Skins fans as we watch other teams re-build in the slow, grimy way.

They go into this year's draft with 9 picks and have Parcells and a guy named Jeff Ireland doing the picking.

Yeah, you're right, bro': they used their picks wisely and went after a qb upgrade in Pennington before other teams blinked.

But Chad Henne is a very good young quarterback and will do well once he gets a chance to start a season or two.

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 12, 2009 2:51 PM | Report abuse

Fritz, most of their high round draft picks aren't even in the league anymore. There were news reports on that all over. And the jury is still out on the kid from Ohio state.

They were only terrible last year. A few years before that they were in the playoffs with a similar record under Wansted (Wanny McStache) but he was getting raked for not getting further...

You're speaking in generalities, but it doesn't fit the reality of what happened with this team.

What I'm saying is that while your logic seems sound, it's not really the truth about the league. You don't build in this league anymore. You may be able to maintain, but there's a TON of turnover from year to year.

By your logic Detroit would be the best team in the league by now...

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 12, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

If he became a LB, he definitely wouldn't be a backup... Marcus is leaving, he would take Marcus spot at SLB. Not sure if he would be better at LDE though.

I think I'd have to take Colston.... Fletch is better right now, but he only has 2-3 years left..... Colston has a good 10 year career in front of him.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse

I'm thinking the Skins do need to think rebuilding, which is why I wondered about trading Fletcher, because he is worth a lot in the right situation.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse

I wouldn't trade Fletcher this year. He's getter old, but he's still the best defensive player on the Skins.

However, I would attempt to sign FA RT Stinchcomb away from the Saints.

Signing another #1 or #2 WR would necessitate taking a significant cap hit when you release ARE or Moss. The Skins have to hope the 2nd year WRs pan out this year.

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

My last 20 minutes:

Blog on RI
Speak with former Pres Jimmy Carter
Blog on RI

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 2:56 PM | Report abuse

I haven't seen Orakpo play in the NFL... yet

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 2:56 PM | Report abuse

If we trade Fletcher, we open a void at MLB sooner, but that's inevitable. Trade Fletcher for value and solve a long term problem.

It also makes it easier to use the #13 pick, since you can use the pick on OL, any LB position or DL.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

However, I would attempt to sign FA RT Stinchcomb away from the Saints.

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 2:55 PM

Yes Im immature, but that sentence is funny.

Posted by: Rypien11 | February 12, 2009 3:05 PM | Report abuse

Miami 2005 9-7 middle of pack
2006 6-10 near bottom(I think #8)
2007 1-15 first

I haven't gone back to look at specific picks, so your right, I'm just talking in generalities. But having higher picks over several years has to add up.

Moe is correct also. They did have an easier schedule. And Pennington dropped into their laps.

And Parcells does know what he is doing.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 3:05 PM | Report abuse

By your logic Detroit would be the best team in the league by now...

Posted by: DikShuttle | February 12, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse
ANd Detroit has a terrible FO. But they do have some good athletes. Just need someone to give them leadership.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 3:07 PM | Report abuse

I realized he's just a FA RT after posting.. LOL

Posted by: siris | February 12, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

My last 20 minutes:

Blog on RI
Speak with former Pres Jimmy Carter
Blog on RI

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 2:56 PM | Report abuse
Well, I'm glad to see you have most of your priorities straight. Stick with us now.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 3:10 PM | Report abuse

I'm thinking the Skins do need to think rebuilding, which is why I wondered about trading Fletcher, because he is worth a lot in the right situation.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse
That's a valid point, zz. GG might overpay to get LF. I hadn't thought about that. I love LF, but we have Matt Sinclair coming back off IR also. I was impressed with him last preseason. He's not LF, but, I like the trade.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 3:14 PM | Report abuse

VC would never make that trade tho. It would put down his picks in round #2 last year.

Posted by: frediefritz | February 12, 2009 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Zee - how were you able to help Jimmy?

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | February 12, 2009 3:28 PM | Report abuse

Public transit in Locarno, Switzerland is goes by the acronym FART

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 3:32 PM | Report abuse

not sure I helped Jimmy, but we talked

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 3:33 PM | Report abuse

Public transit in Locarno, Switzerland is goes by the acronym FART

Posted by: zcezcest1

I'll bet it runs on clean natural gas! Zing!

Posted by: Predator48 | February 12, 2009 3:33 PM | Report abuse

article on ESPN about the skins meeting with Hall's agent. The skins are said to make a contract offer at the combine to keep him from hitting the free agent market.

Posted by: GreatOne1 | February 12, 2009 3:40 PM | Report abuse

trade L Fletcher??

why????

I'll admit the entire linebacking core has some issues:

Rocky Mac--are his knees that bad? is he a liability in coverage against a speedy tight end in a league of speedy tight ends?

M Washington--if he goes, who's the best replacement, H Blades, a draftee, or a free agent slb, like Canty or B Scott?

L Fletcher-- can you run straight at him and get yardage, especially if you lead block him with a taller fullback? is he just a 'sideline to sideline' backer like Zac Thomas? is he a poor blitz 'backer?

H Blades--is he just a special teamer and back up?

Chris Wilson--if given the chance to become James Harrison is a flexible 4-3, 3-4 look, can he get sacks, cover and stop the run?

A Fincher, M Sinclair: what's up with these guys? are they just special teamers or, given the issues with the redskins' linebackers, should they be given a shot to start or play more?

Strange thing: all the answers to these questions just happen to be yes.

Next question.......

Posted by: MistaMoe | February 12, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Right now, the Skins have a wide variety of ways to go. None of them are particularly good. Pretty soon, we'll see the markers that will tell us if there is a strategy.

Question 1: Are they going to dump several aging vets -- and take the cap hits

Question 2: Are they going to trade any players with value (ie Fletcher as I speculated on earlier?

Question 3: Are they going after any 'game changing' free agents

Question 4: What is being done with the OL?

Question 5: Are contracts written/rewritten to take advantage of the potential for 2010 to be an uncapped year?

To me, 2009 looks to me like a classic rebuilding year, despite the limited number of picks. The underlying issue is the labor contract and if 2010 goes uncapped. My guess is that has a huge impact on this offseason, with the Spaghetti Gang betting on 2010 being uncapped.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 3:58 PM | Report abuse

"Question 2: Are they going to trade any players with value (ie Fletcher as I speculated on earlier?"

There is no way they would get anywhere near the value Fletcher should have and has with his current team.

To what you suggest YOUNGER GUYS would have to be traded to get the value they so desperately need in the draft.

You need to stop talking Fletcher (that will never happen) and start thinking Cooley, Campbell, and even Laron Landry along with Carlos Rogers. You can get value for those four and its a risk. But you could rebuild both lines ... and have to start over at QB, CB, safety, and TE.

Posted by: periculum | February 12, 2009 4:13 PM | Report abuse

MistaMoe -- the reason you consider trading Fletcher is to upgrade elsewhere. Which is why I suggested Colston. Fletcher upgrades the Saints defense, especially with GG. Losing Colston isn't a huge hit since the Saints are very deep at WR.

For us, Fletcher has maybe 2-3 years left ... and we're not likely to be a playoff contender in that time frame unless the cap goes away. So trading Fletcher makes our defense weaker for as long as he'd last. Flipside is that Colston is a 1st rate WR and he's young, another 10 years ahead of him. And clearly, we still have a major issue a WR

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 4:14 PM | Report abuse

Defense:
-Go after Peppers in free agency...That will be your only big splash
-Go after either Dansby, Channing Crowder,or Michael Boley from the falcons to solve your OLB problem and you can get all of those guys for a good price
-I think you keep carlos and release Springs to get some cap room to sign those other guys (I will contradict myself later in this post)
-Resign Hall and Evans
-Apparently they might not release Griffin which I am ok with so you are looking at a solid line (although I think Monty and Golston can hold down the fort), a good secondary, and a good trio of linebackers. The D will be even better despite losing Springs, Washington, and Jtaylor

Offense:
-If one of the big 4 OT's is available at pick 13 (Smith, Monroe, Smith, Oher) you have to take him and plug him in at RT right away.
-I know earlier I said we should keep Rogers but if we do trade him and get a second rounder, Maybe we could trade our second rounder and our 5th rounder (and if no one bites on the 5th maybe deal our 3rd rounder instead) to move up into the late first round to try to get Duke Robinson who you could also plug in right away on the line. I know people say hold onto our picks but do you really think Vinny is going to find a gem in the 5th or even the 3rd round. You get two legitimate starters right from the get go who you can keep for a long time. Your O-Line is instantly a ton better. If the team you are trading with goes for the second and fifth round pick then you draft a D linemen with the 3rd. Next year you use your picks on almost all Dlinemen and maybe draft another DB to replace Springs once we release him next year.

Oline- Samuels, Robinson, Rabach, Thomas or Rinehart, Oher
Then you try to leave the rest of your offense alone and see what happens.

If you do this you are only signing 2 free agents and picking up 4 draft picks. We could afford that once we make cuts. No reason to believe the team couldnt compete next year

Posted by: jeffco01 | February 12, 2009 4:15 PM | Report abuse

no thanks on peppers, he'll cost too much, and he's 29 when the season starts....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

I'm The Truth, baby!

Posted by: TheTruth11 | February 12, 2009 4:25 PM | Report abuse

What makes me cringe is that I'll bet Danny is going to plan around 2010 being uncapped.

I think a cap is a good thing for pro sports in general, and for the NFL is specific.

So if Danny plans on 2010 being uncapped, then I'd expect him to fight against a labor agreement in 2010 and I think that is not in the game's best interest. To me, its the wealthy owners (or owners of the wealthy teams) that have the greatest responsibility to look after the game's best interests. I just don't see Danny looking out for the greater good.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | February 12, 2009 4:26 PM | Report abuse

beep beep

Posted by: BeantownGreg | February 12, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

+++Lisa, you can't expect something along the lines of factual reporting when its coming from Len P. He's LONG had an issue with Snyder, and goes out of his way to bash the Redskins.

Posted by: BeantownGreg +++


Noticing a trend here, Beans? Funny, the Media doesn't have a problem with good owners like Rooney

Posted by: TheCork | February 12, 2009 5:45 PM | Report abuse

hey jim zorn you should try to get larry fitzgerald or darnel doucet

Posted by: natedog12396 | February 13, 2009 5:51 PM | Report abuse

na im joking we do need more good people like adrine peterson because clinton gets hurt every game, {even though clinton portis is my favorite player}HAIL TO THE REDSKINS

Posted by: natedog12396 | February 13, 2009 6:00 PM | Report abuse

ITS NOT YOUR FUALT CLINTON

Posted by: natedog12396 | February 13, 2009 6:02 PM | Report abuse

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