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Marinelli, the Coach Whisperer

Lions Coach Rod Marinelli had a brief conference call with the media here. In full disclosure, he was speaking in such a hushed tone that I could not always pick up exactly what he was saying, but the bulk of it focused on the Skins' running game.

Marinelli repeatedly praised the brawn and execution of the offensive line. "It starts up front and that's the offensive line," Marinelli said. Overall, he said the Redskins have relied on a handful of top running plays and essentially repeated them at will, with other teams unable to stop them (those outside stretch plays in particular have been dominant at times).

"They're running a few plays, and they're executing them," he said.

Marinelli was asked about Jon Jansen's impact on the running game, and, again, lavished some praise his way, too.

That's about it, folks. He was very pleasant and accommodating, but we (the local schlubs) didn't really break any new ground here. We'll try to do better next time.

By Jason La Canfora  |  October 22, 2008; 5:00 PM ET
 
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Comments

1st

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 5:05 PM | Report abuse

Got corkzar'd. Repost:

On the subject of Devin Thomas, did everyone see this replay of his (other) big hit on Cribbs? The skins were beating Cribbs up all game...watch him try to get up after the hit and fall back to the ground. Rough stuff

http://theunofficialredskinsblog.wordpress.com/2008/10/20/devin-thomas-big-hit-courtesy-of-txredskins44/

Posted by: -swb | October 22, 2008 5:07 PM | Report abuse

Cindy! I wrote what I thought was a great post and it keeps saying your comment has been received and is being held for approval....what the deuce?

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 5:07 PM | Report abuse

Beantown my man, guess I got the Kelly thing right huh? And I see our arguments have yielded you no understanding of the issue. It isn't that Kelly or Thomas or Davis may become good down the road, they might. But when they picked them, Cerrato did it with the line that they were giving Zorn what he needed to transition to the West Coast and that this immediately upgraded our receiving core. Well, considering that Moss isn't/wasn't going anywhere anytime soon we spent two high draft picks on the riskiest position in football to draft for hoping to get one starter out of it/immediate contribution despite having Reche and Mix on the roster both showing promise. To say you increase your odds of success by picking two ignores the fact that you waste the opportunity to plug other holes at places you have ignored for years because you have been fixated on throwing resources at the receiver position.

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 5:08 PM | Report abuse

dam beeps!

repost

re: 2007 Giants rookies

1. Steve Smith. He was hurt until very late in the season. And yes people up here were calling him a bust. When he got healthy, and reps he contributed. Now you could make a case that he was going against junk coverage being the 3rd wideout due to the year Plex was having and the respect Toomer gets as a wiley vet who can still ball.

2. Boss. He wasn't seeing any playing time until Shockey got hurt. Also this season when the job was all his, TE suddenly became an issue. Why do you think Jints wanted Gonzo (who the Cheifs were idiots for not getting a 4th round pick for...)

Posted by: chrislarry | October 22, 2008 5:08 PM | Report abuse

Then we spent another high pick to get a backup TE, when we could have signed a guy or drafted one late, a 2nd round pick is very high to use on a TE (Cooley was a 3rd for example) and if you draft him that high you better be expecting him to be a starter/major contributor either immediately or in the very near future, and with a very durable/talented TE like Cooley and a quality capable backup like Yoder (who Davis can't seem to beat out) on the roster, it doesn't make much sense. Then to top it all off, despite having needs for quality depth on both lines, linebackers, and safety we draft another wr who couldn't stay healthy in college and promptly gets hurt. You can keep defending it if you want to and maybe it will turn around but right now, this looks like a pretty god awful draft in terms of our first three picks. I do have to give Vinny some credit though, the Horton pick looks like a steal, Rob Jackson has shown some promise too, and Rinehart appears to have potential. But you have to say, the results of this draft are mixed at best right now and only a reversal of the current trend will make it a good one. I don't get why you're so sure these guys will become good, Taylor Jacobs never did, Rod Gardner was serviceable but never what he should have been, and don't make me bring up Desmond Howard, good guys show promise and talent right away, and for all the "it takes time to develop" there are plenty of guys who get it right away and plenty who don't ever get it. Right now, all we can do is hope they get it. Thomas looks like he could, and I don't think he'll have a better chance than this weekend to get it going if he's going to this year and looks like Davis is getting some more opportunities, I think Detroit could be the pivotal game for their seasons, if they can't get on the field and contribute against the freaking Lions, how are we going to trust them against the Steelers, Ravens D, and our divisional games coming up. No matter what though, you gotta get the fact that to date, they have been major disappointments to us, Zorn, and Cerrato.

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 5:09 PM | Report abuse

got beeped again...


thanks cL on smith and boss. I would also think something similar on their DEs.

---------------


swb, great link, missed that hit.

Once DT gets going he is going to be fun to watch, not just catching the ball. Dude likes to get physical and will be throwing some good blocks.

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 5:07 PM

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 5:11 PM | Report abuse

Yo zjfr2, Reche actually decided to sign with St. Louis for less than the Skins offered him (and eventually got cut). So he wasn't around this offseason and didn't factor into who was on the Skins roster come draft day.

Posted by: -swb | October 22, 2008 5:11 PM | Report abuse

I guess all the Kelly apologists (I was not one of them) should just go on IR for the year as well. It seems, so far, that this guy is made of tissue - that was the knock in college and it has carried over to Year 1 in the pros.

People can rave all they want about potential, but reason and logic are forcing us to assume that he was a bad pick (for having the toughness of a pretzel) until he proves otherwise.

Posted by: p1funk | October 22, 2008 5:13 PM | Report abuse

first I heard of any attempt to resign Caldwell, if so that's fine, they still had Mix and Thrash on the roster. A quality threat opposite Moss is no doubt a need, but using two high picks on the riskiest position to draft for (other than maybe QB) to fill that need is a stretch.

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 5:14 PM | Report abuse

Can Tryon be converted into a Westbrook?

Posted by: 4thFloor | October 22, 2008 5:16 PM | Report abuse

They've been Try'on to do that

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | October 22, 2008 5:19 PM | Report abuse

Where do you people get your information about Kelly's history?

He missed ONE game last year, NO GAMES IN '06, and FOUR GAMES IN '05 (TWO GAMES from two different injuries, both of which he returned from).

None of that sounds like this: "that this guy is made of tissue - that was the knock in college" is a valid statement.

And zjfr2, just so you know, "you gotta get the fact that to date, they have been major disappointments to us, Zorn, and Cerrato." NO I don't "gotta" do anything of the sort, YOU? Maybe. But not me.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 5:24 PM | Report abuse

I don't agree that it takes 2 years for a WR to "get up to speed". Art Monk's rookie year was fanastic. I remember Fred Biletnikoff and Gary Garrison having pretty good rookie years as well.

Posted by: captjim | October 22, 2008 5:27 PM | Report abuse

So then, zjfr2 and p1funk it's also safe for us to assume that both of you are idiots if you think it takes ONE season to judge ANY draft.

This would be why I spend so much time "denying" that ALL SKINS FANS ARE IDIOTS, YOU GUYS MUST SPEND WAAAAAYY TOO MUCH TIME TALKING TO PEOPLE ABOUT THE SKINS.

Pleas stop! At least say something intelligent once in a while. Please.

If you are going to pass judgement, then present a reasonable argument that backs up your point. There are so many players who did NOTHING in their rookie year to go on and have OUTSTANDING careers that it is UNREASONABLE TO judge already.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 5:29 PM | Report abuse

beepage victim

Agree that Devin is coming on...as is Fred Davis. WRT the Giants' rookies contributing during their Super Bowl run, I wonder how much of their impact occured by quarter of the season. My assumption is that they had a typical rookie growth curve and continued to both improve and increase contribution as the year wore on... culminating of course in their substantial efforts in the aforementioned SB run.

I expect both Fred and Devin to increase their production as the year moves along.

Another point: Redskins are not handing anything to these rookies, and are holding them accountable. Zorn is making them earn their reps and PT in practice...but is also rewarding them for their efforts in the gmaes if it is warranted. Witness the plays to Fred, and Zorn's positive mention of DT both after the game and in the monday presser.

Posted by: SkinsfaninKaneohe | October 22, 2008 5:29 PM | Report abuse

captjim, sure some do, but take a look around the WHOLE league, with open eyes, and you will see that it often takes players well past their rookie year to become the player they are. Not just WRs, but at MANY positions.

It's just unrealistic to place labels already.

Period.

I'm done with this dumb@ss discussion.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Please, someone explain to me why you would think it would be a given that any of these guys would have ANY impact year one - this is a new coach, teaching a new system to a team that had ALL of their starters returning - ALL of them!!!

Having watched the Texans out of the corner of my eye through all of their existence - this is a team that by necessity had to start rookies - they hated to do it, and while Mario Williams is now coming on strong, he didn't show any thing resembling his current skills until very late in year one.

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | October 22, 2008 5:32 PM | Report abuse

I want to take a moment and give some serious credit where credit is well over due.

This team in 2004 was in complete shambles. The a coach came along and cleaned house. Turned the whole thing around. Brought in good people. Yes there were a few mistakes. But let's not make the mistake of seeing what that coach has meant to this franchise over the course of the last 4 years. Yes Zorn has a done a great job, but the fondation and soul of this team from the owner down to the 3rd string was established by Joe Gibbs. Gibbs bulit the engine, the body and paited the car. Zorn took the keys and knows how to drive it. The only qiestion is...Is this a hnag over from Joe Gibbs like Bill in Dallas last season? Or is Zorn for real and will continue the growth of this team.

I have full confidence Zorn is not Wade in Dallas but only time will tell.

The Bottom line....Joe Gibbs 2.0 never reached the same level as 1.0 but he sure did a hell of a job turning this Franchise around.

Thanks Coach :)

Posted by: leevi98 | October 22, 2008 6:33 PM | Report abuse

craig2 - I was addressing a different comment earlier saying that you can't tell if a WR is a good draft pick for 2 years. I was just pointing out that some WR rookies demonstrate early on that they will be a good WR.

To contrast - I remember thinking Roy Jefferson wasn't going to be very good after seeing him as a rookie. That sure turned out different!

Posted by: captjim | October 22, 2008 6:37 PM | Report abuse

McMullen

Posted by: _Stumped_1 | October 22, 2008 6:37 PM | Report abuse

McMix

Posted by: _Stumped_1 | October 22, 2008 6:38 PM | Report abuse

capt -- with all due respect, agreed that Art Monk did have a good rookie year. But he went up several steps from his rookie year to become the best WR in the game (at least until Jerry Rice showed up).

And we're talking about a 1st ballot HOF guy (yeah, I know it took 8 ballots, but a few brain dead voters doesn't change the fact that Monk deserved 1st ballot entry). The only thing we know about Thomas and Kelly is they don't appear to be Monk or Rice. But who is?

If Thomas turns into a TJ Houshmandzadeh sort, that'd be a very good thing.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 22, 2008 6:41 PM | Report abuse

I'm done with this dumb@ss discussion.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 5:32 PM | Report abuse


Craig 2,

I'm also glad you are done with this discussion. While I realize you are frustrated, it's extremely rude to call other people idiots because they don't agree with your point of view. Please refrain from using such language or go somewhere else.

Posted by: cosomfla | October 22, 2008 6:48 PM | Report abuse

sally Jenkins is still hot, Jason is always right, and people on here are idiots! Kidding! Except about people being idiots!

Posted by: Lacantwrite | October 22, 2008 6:49 PM | Report abuse

Sorry zcezcest1 - you are certainly right. I did not mean to make that suggestion. I was only giving examples of WR's who did well in their rookie season.

It seems I have a lot to learn about this medium. Much is different withthe "translation"!

Posted by: captjim | October 22, 2008 6:54 PM | Report abuse

and capt -- the fact you remember Roy Jefferson as a rookie is impressive. He wasn't even in DC at the time. But having Jefferson ("I can't play football all my life") on one side and Charley Taylor on the other with Jerry Smith at TE, Larry Brown running and SJ9 at the controls ... wow.

Two problems. First, seems someone was always hurt in that group and second, George Allen. The man could motivate and coach defense. But giving him all those weapons would be a bit like giving the keys to a Ferrari to Madeleine Albright.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 22, 2008 6:58 PM | Report abuse

I also wanted to add Eddie Royal for the Broncos and Desean Jackson for the Eagles. I have seen both of these young men play and have seen many of their highlights. They are fantastic looking rookie WR's who are helping their teams immediately. Let's face it, Denver really needs the help. Philly should be better.

Posted by: captjim | October 22, 2008 7:01 PM | Report abuse

You're right again zcezcest1, I had the great pleasure of meeting Coach Allen on several occasions and can never forget what a fine young man he was. He reminded me so much of Vince Lombardi. A fine coach and a great motivator. The Over The Hill Gang holds such a fond place in my heart!

Still get a chuckle out of the TE - Jerry Smith!

Posted by: captjim | October 22, 2008 7:05 PM | Report abuse

Why precisely, is everyone still so big on McMullen? He got cut by the Seahawks, where he played poorly.... its the same passing system we use; why would he be better here? So he had a great preseason.... against 3rd stringers. His regular season performance, not so much. Besides, if preseason mattered THAT much, the whole of the Redskins O-Line would be gone.

I said this after the loss to the Giants and I'll say it again.... this team has more holes than a single draft class was going to fix. Horton is a beast, Thomas and Davis are making progress. I'm OK with that.

Given the desire to run a two TE set, I'm still OK with the Davis pick... if at this time next year, Davis hasn't beaten out Yoder, I'll be shocked.

Besides, when the hell did it become acceptable to judge draft classes before year 3, much less the midpoint of year 1?

Posted by: AppleScience | October 22, 2008 7:09 PM | Report abuse

those were some fun days capt -- guys like Ron McDole, the Dancing Bear. Still think the 72 NFC championship game when we annihilated dallas is one of the best Skins games ever

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 22, 2008 7:12 PM | Report abuse

Remember the Vikings (Purple People Eaters) - Frann Tarkenton, Page, etc. all of their tradition vs. Over The Hill Gang The Dancing Bear, Diron Talbert, Billy Kilmer - like it was yesterday - what a game in RFK - probably the best one I've ever seen in regular season. The best part is my Dad and I went together. I remember the Billy vs. Sonny bumper stickers in the RFK lot. It started fights! We had great tickets. At the time, we thought our tickets were SO EXPENSIVE. Things sure are different now.

Posted by: captjim | October 22, 2008 7:21 PM | Report abuse

Note to Apple Science: Forget the year three scenario as far as draft picks are concerned skill positions(qb,wr,rb,etc.) should be able to contribute ASAP at todays salary's they need to step up,Kelly nor Thomas were ready when training camp rolled around they weren't in shape and could not complete the conditioning phase for NFL players thats what still makes me wonder about their committment to the pro game,i don't have a problem with young players being given time but these two goofballs have contributed absolutely nothing!!.

Posted by: dargregmag | October 22, 2008 7:42 PM | Report abuse

SICWIDIT'S TID-BITS

1) Still too early to declare Malcom Kelly a bust. The guy is hurt. Let him get healthy, then we'll see.

2) In the name of all that is holy...stop wearing Redskins' jerseys of those who are no longer here. RULE: Only retired or deceased SKINS!!!! No Bailey, Arrington, George, Westbrook, Ramsey, Johnson, Sanders...it's so gay (not that there is anything wrong with that)

3) Even if Kelly is a bust, Chris Horton in the 7th round with only 4 players behind him was genious. This kid can play. Bye-bye Reedie-Reed!

4) I'd like to see Portis rest this game if we have a lead.

5) The piss-burgh game will be a good one!

6) Where can I buy a "Smoot Smack" Bar?

7) Can anyone explain why when an o-lineman looks up from his stance, it's not a false start?

I'm Out!

Posted by: rickyroge | October 22, 2008 7:45 PM | Report abuse

the problem with the 3 receivers being drafted has little to do with the histroy of success with those positions early. It has everything to do with how the Skins nation was repeatedly told how they'd improve the offense right away. The deception is the doing of the FO. In time, we'll see if any of the top 3 make a real contribution.

Football isn't real hard to figure out. He who has the best O and D lines usually wins.

Posted by: lsskinsfan | October 22, 2008 7:48 PM | Report abuse

craig2, first of all, you don't need to be so angry about things, you disagree and that's fine. Secondly, if you read a little closer, as I've tried to explain to beantown as well, I'm not trying to call this draft a bust, in fact I said it could still turn around but what I'm saying is right now its a disappointment and I disagree with the Kelly and Davis choices. I'm fine with the Thomas pick, we all agree that the Skins have needed a WR opposite Moss and Thomas was the best on the board, but the Kelly and Davis picks still don't make much sense given everywhere else we needed depth (proven by the overreaction move for Jason Taylor). That doesn't make me an idiot, and all of you who are so convinced these guys are gonna be good I hope your right, I really do.

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 8:23 PM | Report abuse

It has everything to do with how the Skins nation was repeatedly told how they'd improve the offense right away. The deception is the doing of the FO.

Was that part of the Season Ticket contract? How many plays were you supposed to see the fiesta trio as part of the Club package?

IIRC, the FO stated "we selected the top remaining player on our board in each case". You can do that when you have ~24 returning starters. You can even take a flier on a promising punter. It's highly unlikely that all of them will work out. And you can argue that there was some sort of FO hijinks that allowed Tryon and Jackson to stay instead of Mason and McMullen. Or you can argue that the coaching staff was more interested in defensive depth than marginal offensive players.
But don't confuse knowledge and opinion.

Posted by: daggar | October 22, 2008 8:26 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, forgot the CAPS, it should read Fiesta Trio...

Posted by: daggar | October 22, 2008 8:32 PM | Report abuse

I'm also glad you are done with this discussion. While I realize you are frustrated, it's extremely rude to call other people idiots because they don't agree with your point of view. Please refrain from using such language or go somewhere else.

Posted by: cosomfla | October 22, 2008 6:48 PM | Report abuse

I have no need to be lectured thank you cosomfla, and BTW, I can call a spade a spade if I so choose.

It's simple idiocy to grade ANY draft class halfway through their rookie season. Period. That's my opinion.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 8:34 PM | Report abuse

But don't confuse knowledge and opinion.

Posted by: daggar


Most articles in the WaPo after the draft went into excrutiating detail about how fast, tall, athletic etc.. the drafted receivers were and how they'd help a rather smallish receiving corp currently on the team. As for knowledge vs. opinion, it's obvious your basis is from opinion.

Posted by: lsskinsfan | October 22, 2008 8:39 PM | Report abuse

Craig2, what he means is state that it is lunacy, do not call someone an idiot. I.e. have respect for the people here even if you dislike their opinion. Call the opinion what you think it is, refrain from speaking disparagingly about the person. Please.

Posted by: JesusFreakKaren | October 22, 2008 8:41 PM | Report abuse

zjfr2 My aplogies if I misunderstood your comments, but it seemed like just another BUNCH of stuff being spewed by so many who only want to be negative. By your explanation then, disappointments come pretty easy. Me, I'm pretty excited about what I see on the field, is there room for improvement, ABSOLUTELY. Would I like to see another wide out step up to help loosen up things for Moss and make plays on his own? ABSOLUTELY.

But I don't think it's fair to say any of the draft was a "bad" choice considering the only "move" post draft was prompted by NOT JUST ONE INJURY, BUT TWO. Remember, one of the backup D-Ends also was lost for the season before the Taylor trade was put through.

And, the D-End they were interested in (the one I wanted them to draft BTW) was taken by Miami just ahead of the Skins.

Now... The Lions, this team could well do some damage, don't let their record fool anyone. Orlovsky has over a 90 rating in his last two games and hasn't lost a fumble or had a pic. This guy is athletic and can and will make plays with his feet.

With a guy like Johnson they can do some damage. We really havn't seen an athletic QB yet, let's see how Blache handles him.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 8:42 PM | Report abuse

I'm curious if Thomas and Kelly showed up ready to play at college level conditioning, or simply showed up fat and slow at the start of training camp. Zorn said that they showed up out of shape, but compared to what they were expecting or compared to this league?

Also, Kelly can learn the offense while his knee heals up if he is placed on IR. In addition, it will also allow him to get his conditioning to NFL standards before he starts playing again. And when he does, he'll have better knowledge of the playbook.

Posted by: JesusFreakKaren | October 22, 2008 8:45 PM | Report abuse

jesus,

i think the oft used phrase goes something like, " we can disagree, without being disagreeable!"

Posted by: lsskinsfan | October 22, 2008 8:48 PM | Report abuse

I must also say that many of you are surprising me.

I suppose I have respondED in such ways that I have seen here before, the examples were set long ago. Apparently REGISTRATION had much more dramatic effect than I had imagined. I have been registered here and posted occasionally for a couple of years.

But the "RI Faithful" has apparently changed much since I last tried to tolerate the negativity here, and my frame of mind is apparently out of step with it, I will adjust it accordingly.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 8:50 PM | Report abuse

Well we could have picked Desean Jackson instead of Devin Thomas OR Fred Davis. Obviously he has helped the iggles offense and punt returns immensely and immediately. He's basically taken the #1 receiver position for them. Avery from St Louis has shown great promise as a rookie (we couldn't have picked him). James Hardy is playing, even Jordy Nelson is getting some burn. The Skins simply could NOT have been planning for the future with their three 2nd round picks.

Somehow and amazingly so, the Skins are 5-2 with only one pretty good wr (Moss), one average wr (ARE), and one below average wr (Thrash). Complimenting them is one very good te (Cooley). That my friends is a pretty thin receiver corps that is one pulled hammy away from collapse of the passing game. The team absolutely HAD to add a receiver this offseason and appears to have not been able to do that.

Posted by: thinker11 | October 22, 2008 8:51 PM | Report abuse

Although this is awfully nice of you to say:

"simply showed up fat and slow"

Not judgmental at all, yeah, I'm impressed.

How about another lecture!?

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 8:55 PM | Report abuse

thinker,

i have felt that way since last year when moss was taken away we had little else to go to. Of course, to be fair, the new offense seems to have been picked up rather quickly by JC. I hope he continues to do so well. I'm so glad to be proven wrong about him. Still, stisticallt speaking, he's bound to have a bad day at the office with a pick or two. He does seem unflappable though.

Posted by: lsskinsfan | October 22, 2008 8:57 PM | Report abuse

thinker11

Explain this please. "Skins simply could NOT have been planning for the future with their three 2nd round picks."

HUH? Umm... the draft is pretty much ALWAYS USED to plan for the future. Do you REALLY think that Zorn and Vinny and Vinny's scout team thought ALL THREE were coming in to contribute RIGHT AWAY?!

Just because the WaPo played it up that way doesn't make it so. JLC reported.. what... four weeks ago that Kelly was already done(going to IR this week), and if I recall correctly, JLC and just about every other writer at this paper predicted a nightmare year for Zorn.

If they got that stuff wrong, don't you think it's possible they were wrong about this staff EXPECTING these draft picks to be something big immediately.

Just a thought.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 9:01 PM | Report abuse

My point exactly thinker, I'm not trying to say this draft is a bust, but for what it was intended to be it is a disappointment, and yes craig, through 6 games I can call it a disappointment that not one of our THREE second round picks can get on the field and contribute in a meaningful way. That isn't too early, is it too early to throw in the towel and call them busts? ABSOLUTELY. Is it perfectly acceptable to say that we should expect more than zero impact from four first day picks? ABSOLUTELY. I like the Rinehart pick, and he should only play if calamity befalls our Oline. But, do you really think they drafted these other guys and cut everybody else with the intention of playing Thrash as our number 3 all year and getting little to nothing from them? If so, I must disagree.

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 9:03 PM | Report abuse

Cincinnati stole Crummey off our practice squad today.

Didn't anybody here report that or did I just miss it?

We added Isaiah Ross, a 6-3 and 320 pound O-Linemen. Arena league guy too, caught some touchdowns there!

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 9:06 PM | Report abuse

I think the overwhelming consensus is that the Skins have a problem at the #3 WR slot. And that neither Kelly or Thomas is a solution in 2008, though some have hope for Thomas as the year goes on.

Me, I've always felt you should not try to solve this years problems in the draft. You try to solve your 2010 problem areas in the 2008 draft. TE (Fred Davis) was not one of those areas. If the Spaghetti Gang had used all 3 round 2 picks on WRs, I would have been OK with it.

To solve immediate problems, you make a trade or sign a FA. Its more expensive, but you're much more likely to get what you need.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 22, 2008 9:11 PM | Report abuse

zjfr2

No I don't think they intended for Thrash to be the number 3 all year. But last time I checked, we haven't even made it to mid point yet. 5-2. Zorn's got what he needs or else he'll make a change.

I think that's the difference between the way you look at it and the way I look at it. I expect that Zorn knows what he's doing, and he's made the decision that he can win with the players in their current roles for now.

I will be surprised AND disappointed if it doesn't change though, I'll give you that.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 9:11 PM | Report abuse

I meant the Skins HAD to be hoping for some immediate contribution not for something good in some future year. That HAD to be the plan since Moss, ARE, and Thrash are simply not a winning NFL team receiving corps over a season ESPECIALLY given the injury problems all three have had.

Posted by: thinker11 | October 22, 2008 9:13 PM | Report abuse

As for knowledge vs. opinion, it's obvious your basis is from opinion.

Posted by: lsskinsfan

Updating the official RI knowledge vs. opinion tally:
0% knowledge
92% opinion
3% Nate
1% SJK
11% TCCLs
4% blog points
12% Miss Teen South Carolina
2% math

Posted by: daggar | October 22, 2008 9:15 PM | Report abuse

zcezcest1

You and I are more closely on the same page. But I don't have as big a problem with the Davis pick.

Yoder is almost exclusively a blocking TE and once Davis is up to speed (and I think that will happen this year) he and Cooley will create serious problems for defenses.

And I do think Thomas will be seeing an increasingly larger role in the offense as well. The special teams activity he has shown recently will help encourage Zorn to give him more responsibility.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 9:16 PM | Report abuse

that was good daggar

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

daggar,

you are an interesting one aren't you/ you say not to confuse knowledge with opinion, yet you offer up your latest post?

back to football, thrash is a gym rat, and i'm sure a good teammate, but which D coordinator does he keep up at night? Not one. I, (yes Daggar another opinion here, don't think ARE makes them sweat either). Moss is the only real threat we have at WR. Cooley as a TE is above average, but he's used to help the O-line often. The addition of another good, or above average wr is needed to make them go deep in the playoffs. IMHO daggar.

Posted by: lsskinsfan | October 22, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

McMuffin?

Posted by: Notorious_LMG | October 22, 2008 9:27 PM | Report abuse

thinker11

The season isn't even half completed yet, so I'll say it AGAIN, one cannot fairly judge any of these rookies yet.

So many keep talking about a couple of rookies who are standing out, from 32 players picked in each round (not counting later rounds when compensatory picks are also used or the lost picks from team discipline).

Those are not high odds. And in each case, the team those players were drafted by was in dire need of those picks contributing, so whether they were ready or not, they were thrust into it.

That dynamic doesn't exist here.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 9:29 PM | Report abuse

"simply showed up fat and slow"

Not judgmental at all, yeah, I'm impressed.

How about another lecture!?

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 8:55 PM
====================================

Hey! At least it wasn't fat, slow, and drunk.

Because that's no way to go through life, son.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | October 22, 2008 9:31 PM | Report abuse

Zjfr - You can't say Thomas hasn't contributed considering his critical ST tackle. You can say that his contributions to the offense so far are disspointing, but I believe according to what I've heard from Zorn and others in their pressers, Thomas is starting to look better in practice where he could get more opportunities to contribute on the field. That can only be a good thing. In addition, considering the development curve of rookie WR's I believe that the coaching staff expected a contribution from the 2nd round selections starting mid-year maybe, and getting better as the season wears on. I doubt they wanted to IR one of them, but if it is best for his development, then he can sit out a year.

Posted by: JesusFreakKaren | October 22, 2008 9:32 PM | Report abuse

Craig2 - how else would you bluntly put "out of shape?" For a football player that would normally be fat and slow compared to what they should be.

Posted by: JesusFreakKaren | October 22, 2008 9:33 PM | Report abuse

I would hope Zorn is willing to call Mix first if Kelly does go to IR. He really worked hard on TEAMS and seemed to be making progress outside the injury bug in camp.

And I do agree that another WR does need to step up. Thrash can be handled fairly well one on one, and ARE is not "BIG PLAY" threat. Moss would benefit greatly from a guy like Thomas getting himself into the game.

That said, he can still do that very thing, the season is FAR from over people.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 9:34 PM | Report abuse

I'm just here for the jokes, baybee.

"The deception of the FO" being quite a good one. Not quite LMAO good, but sorta "where did that come from" good.

Posted by: daggar | October 22, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Craig2 - how else would you bluntly put "out of shape?" For a football player that would normally be fat and slow compared to what they should be.

Posted by: JesusFreakKaren | October 22, 2008 9:33 PM | Report abuse

You kind of handled that your self right there. For you to lecture me on my "language" and not showing respect, is really a joke. Take a look in the mirror the next time you decide to pass personal judgment.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 9:37 PM | Report abuse

Hey Cindy -- Is the Post working on article about the Winslow situation?

* How do the Skins players feel about tackling a guy with a staph infection?

* Shouldn't they have been notified by the opposing team?

* Does the NFL have a staph infection policy that prevents infected players from both playing in a game and traveling?

Posted by: siris | October 22, 2008 9:47 PM | Report abuse

Craig2, you've gotta be kidding me. I try to avoid calling anyone an idiot or the like up here, and I'm generally successful. The difference between "out of shape" and "fat and slow" is political correctness, which I don't excel at, and don't care to. Both negatively highlight the person's conditioning, which was commented on by Zorn. My whole thing was curiosity, how out of shape did they come? Was it to where a college coach would have yelled at them for being out of shape? Or was it that they got to the level of conditioning that they were used to needing, and it wasn't good enough for the NFL?

Posted by: JesusFreakKaren | October 22, 2008 9:50 PM | Report abuse

Many opinions on here are made from assumptions. Are we sure that both Zorn and Reid hold their players to the same conditioning standards? Denver as well. Could it be that the conditioning of these players on other teams was less of an issue because they were needed immediately?

I remember an article around week four that said that ARE was just getting a handle on the plays/routes. Moss mentioned after the Saints game that things started to make sense in the passing game. They are veterans, so maybe it is taking a bit longer for the rookies to "get it" in the passing game as well.

With a 5-2 record why are we being so tough on these young guys? Is it because rookies on other teams are making more plays? Regardless of the contributions that Jackson is making in philly, they are 3-3 at this point.

Maybe we should just enjoy the fact that the Skins are doing much better than many of us thought they would at this point. Same for Zorn, he is coaching like he knows what he is doing. And it seems like he has won over the players, so I can't understand the negativity or unhappiness with our rookies (Zorn also being a rookie).

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 9:58 PM | Report abuse

Curz -- apparently, some of us Up Here were promised some sort of minimum standard of productivity for the Fiesta Trio.
It's like when someone goes on a 7-11 run and brings you back a Big Gulp when you had clearly asked for a Super Big Gulp.

Posted by: daggar | October 22, 2008 10:08 PM | Report abuse

Our number 1 priority of the offseason was to add an impact wr - preferably with size. I'm not saying anybody is a bust - time will tell that, BUT after 7 games our 3 2nd round picks, our 3rd round pick, and our 4th round pick have combined for one good special teams tackle. Oh and a bunch of offensive pass interference calls. That's all ok as long as Moss doesn't get hurt. Moss gets hurt - no double team on him and then there's an extra guy in the box and all of a sudden Portis doesn't have as many "gash" plays any more. As it stands now Moss is more important to our offense (with a long history of hamstring problems)than JC is since presumably Collins could fill in. No they weren't counting on the rookies coming along slowly - they were hoping for some immediate impact. They didn't get that so they're making do with what they have and it's worked out because Moss and ARE haven't been hurt. Zorn can't exactly complain but you have to believe he's very disappointed he doesn't have more weapons at wr.

Posted by: thinker11 | October 22, 2008 10:12 PM | Report abuse

I'm also glad you are done with this discussion. While I realize you are frustrated, it's extremely rude to call other people idiots because they don't agree with your point of view. Please refrain from using such language or go somewhere else.

Posted by: cosomfla | October 22, 2008 6:48 PM | Report abuse

I have no need to be lectured thank you cosomfla, and BTW, I can call a spade a spade if I so choose.

It's simple idiocy to grade ANY draft class halfway through their rookie season. Period. That's my opinion.


Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 8:34 PM | Report


Actually, you do need the lecture. You can say whatever you want, but don't think people are going to sit idly by while you attack them for their opinions.

Here's a thought, think about how you feel when someone calls you an idiot for expressing your feelings/opinions.

Posted by: cosomfla | October 22, 2008 10:12 PM | Report abuse

Curzon and Craig, plz understand that I am very very happy with the year so far, and very very happy with Zorn. Nobody expected us to be 5-2 and realistically we should be 6-1, that's incredible and I'm thrilled. And I hope that Kelly and Thomas get it together and I hope that Davis does too. But as craig said earlier, I gotta call a spade a spade, I think its foolish to think that Zorn or Cerrato wanted Thrash as our number 3 wr for the year and that made the final cuts of several guys at the same position expecting to get almost nothing from these guys through 6 games. Pure and simple they have been a disappointment as Zorn has flat out said to the press no less which should be an indication of how frustrated he is, coaches don't just make derogatory statements about players to the press, look at how he ignored/no commented the Portis comments after week 1 because he knew he needed Portis but with the kids he was so frustrated he tried to go to the press to light a fire under them just like he did with Jansen, with Jansen it worked, with the kids it hasn't. But don't tell me that it isn't a disappointment that these guys can't contribute and don't tell me that one special teams tackle and factoring in all the penalties a positive like 15 yards on the season from three second round picks is positive. and the majority of the 1st and 2nd picks around the league are at least on the field making contributions to their teams regularly.

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 10:17 PM | Report abuse

Ahh, got you daggar, don't know what I was thinking...

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 10:17 PM | Report abuse

thinker11 interesting points. However, one can argue that the rookies WR you are producing were forced into major roles because of injury, lack of depth at WR, etc. You could therefore argue that the reason the Thomas, and Daivis haven't contributed as much as expected is that they aren't needed to assume a major role. The skins have the ability to bring them along at the pace Zorn would like and still win games.

Posted by: TWISI | October 22, 2008 10:19 PM | Report abuse

Craig2,

YOU ARE THE IDIOT TRYING TO GET YOUR RECYCLED POINT ACROSS BY USING ALL CAPS.

I DON'T THINK YOU READ MY POST.

ALL YOU HAVE TO RUN WITH IS THE "POTENTIAL-DOWN-THE-LINE-ARGUMENT". FINE.

WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IS HIS IMPACT IN YEAR 1 WHICH IS LESS THAN NOTHING. I KNOW THAT ALOT OF DRAFT PICKS DON'T CONTRIBUTE MUCH IN THEIR FIRST YEAR. BUT HOW MANY HAVE RECURRING KNEE INJURIES AND GO ON TO BECOME GREAT PLAYERS?

UNTIL HE REALIZES POTENTIAL AND CONTRIBUTES TO SOMETHING OTHER THAN TAKING UP SPACE IN THE TRAINER'S ROOM, HE'S LOOKS LIKE A BAD PICK.

Posted by: p1funk | October 22, 2008 10:24 PM | Report abuse

Jack, I would much rather see Thomas with receptions to match Jackson than where he is right now. However, I look at it the way that I did with JC. Many thought that there was no way he would be playing the way he is playing right now at the beginning of the season. He is playing SMART football right now and I am more than happy with his production. He could be doing better, but he could definitely be doing much worse.

The Rookies also could be doing much better. I would argue however that in college all they had to do was show up and their play was much better than the DBs they were playing against in college for the most part. The NFL is a whole different world as they found out and Zorn made sure they were aware of it. But let's give them the complete year before we start getting disappointed with them.

Yes, they could look better than they are, but I think it is nice that we do not NEED them more than we have yet. When/If we need them more due to injuries, then I will be disappointed if they do not produce more than they are right now.

For now, I am hoping that each game DT and FD improve and get more balls thrown their way. Kelly on the other hand, I just want him healthy and to be a monster next year to make up for not being on the field this year.

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Anybody willing to go on a 7-11 run? I'm dying for a Super Big Gulp...

Posted by: daggar | October 22, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

LMAO!!

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

2 major reasons our #3 WR isn't more of an issue.

Mike Sellers and Jon Jansen.

Whenever Sellers is on the field, we're likely going with just 2 WRs. And why is Sellers on the field more? Because the run game has exploded with the return of Jansen at RT.

With Jansen and Sellers, the run game is among the best in football. Which means more 2 WR sets and less dependence on Thrash and Devin Thomas.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 22, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

It's nice that all we have to argue about seemingly is whether a 21 yr old rookie WR is a bust after 7 games.

HAIL!!

Posted by: Notorious_LMG | October 22, 2008 10:45 PM | Report abuse

curzon, its kind of a what came first the chicken or the egg vs. what came first the talent or the opportunity. To me, good players make their own opportunities. An example, is McMullen, everybody here is in love with him, he went to Seattle which was decimated by injury and literally had nobody else and he couldn't produce. And you are correct it is very nice that we haven't "needed" them yet. But we still would have like to have them. Jackson went to Philly, Reggie Brown and Curtis were hurt, but they still had other guys there and yet he produced, now he is a starter even when Brown is back and Curtis shortly because Brown and Curtis weren't that great to begin with. Royal went to Denver and won a starting job of stokely who has had a 1000 yard season in the nfl, Josh Morgan is now starting in San Fran, Donny Avery is starting in St. Louis. Thrash and ARE aren't exactly dominant receivers in this league and you can't convince me that its a good thing that Thrash is outperforming DT so much so that DT can't get on the field unless he gets hurt.

Posted by: zjfr2 | October 22, 2008 10:52 PM | Report abuse

Jack - I thought we'd answered that one Up Here.
The chicken came first.
Then the hen.

Posted by: daggar | October 22, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse

Jack, I do understand what you are saying, but there is no argument that can convince me that the chicken came before the egg!

It's the glass is have empty vs the glass is half full argument. If you need water you should be thankful that the glass if half full. To be unhappy that the glass if empty is to be ungrateful. We should be happy that the glass is half full, especially taking into consideration the schedule we were dealt to start the season off with.

I am a glass half full type of person. The rookies still have nine games to show me something.

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 11:05 PM | Report abuse

I just checked the stats of the skins top pass catchers. No other team has 3 ctachers with 30+ catches this year (Cooley - 34. Moss - 33, ARE 30). Of ARE's catches 70% has gone for 1st downs. I say this because I think ARE is having a very solid year. When/if the team gets consistent production from another catcher, this offense will be extermely hard to defend.

Posted by: TWISI | October 22, 2008 11:09 PM | Report abuse

well karen, you will obviously keep on passing judgment so our conversation is pointless. Have a nice evening.

zjfr2 -- I already agreed with parts of your points, you made the well, and I disagree with others, that's ok and good.

p1funk -- you just keep repeating the same comment, year 1 impact or else he's a "bad pick", sorry but just isn't a justifiable statement. If you are going to make claims, back them up. That's what I said, and you haven't done it. Not a surprise mind you, but you havne't done it yet.

32 players in each round of the draft, just consider the first two(that's 64 in case you need the help), how many of them are you hearing about?

There are rookies performing all over the league, about one per team is "making an impact" on his team. Guess what? The Skins have one too. And likely, by the end of the season, there will be several others as well.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 11:24 PM | Report abuse

Curzon and TWISI!

Thank you!!!!

I have felt so alone! with this back and forth.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 11:26 PM | Report abuse

daggar, I think TWISI just got you a super big gulp!

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 11:31 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Desean Jackson, Vinny was asked about him weeks ago. Vinny said they liked Jackson and thought he was the most "polished" and "ready for the NFL" WR in the draft but they wanted to draft taller WRs since we already have Santana and EL....smaller WR. Why add yet another small WR to the mix?

Posted by: Lisa_R | October 22, 2008 11:32 PM | Report abuse

I'll be interested to see if Zorn decides on who is #2 RB is this week. It doesn't make sense to split so few touches between Alexander and Cartwright (and Sellers is due a few -- he did blow up Kinnoy Kennedy last time we played these guys).

Its a critical role. Portis is a beast, but its not hard to imagine that he'll be very beat up by year end at this rate.

I'd like to see Rock get that job. I think he's a better RB than he's been given credit for and he's earned that chance with great play and effort on special teams.

But I can see Zorn wanting Alexander to succeed, see if there is some real life in him. Plus, Rock is our teams MVP, and Zorn may want Rock to stay focused on that.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 22, 2008 11:32 PM | Report abuse

Good points Lisa, which also suggests that they did NOT expect them to come in take over a major role right away. And a very good question too.

zcezcest1 -- I agree with your thoughts, and I thought from the beginning of the "Betts replacement saga" that Zorn was concerned with Rock being so involved on TEAMS. Adding 10-15 touches on offense every week worried him. He also made it known several times during the preseason that he really trusts Rock and considers him a very important leader on TEAMS.

I definitely think all of that plays a significant role in his decision process in this regard.

Posted by: craig2 | October 22, 2008 11:39 PM | Report abuse

@zjfr2: we might disagree on the top three picks, but I'm glad someone else is pointing out McMullen ISN'T the answer.

BTW, for those in love with DeSean Jackson: we already have a small, speedy WR (ours doesn't have an attitude problem); we call him "Santana".

Anybody else interested in seeing what Devin Thomas can do against that Lions secondary?

Also, as for the staph infection comment above: it'd be nice if the Browns informed the league, but there isn't much you can do about it once the infection is healed aside from absolutely bleaching the uniform, pads, helmet etc. If he is truly healthy, the pathogenic staph shouldn't be colonizing his skin anymore.

Posted by: AppleScience | October 22, 2008 11:40 PM | Report abuse

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Posted by: rdskns1975 | October 22, 2008 11:41 PM | Report abuse

Lisa -- I see and completely agree with what they were trying to do with the big WRs. But I don't understand Fred Davis pick.

After all, for Davis to get much playing time, he'll have to beat out Chris Cooley, a 26 year old Pro Bowl tight end with a 5 (or 6?) year contract. And even if he does, could he be a significant upgrade to Cooley?

WR is a problem area for this team. You need 3 WRs in this league, you only have 2 that belong on the field. Plus both Moss and ARE have had injury issues.

So instead of Davis, why not pick the most polished WR in addition to Thomas and Kelly? Picking Jackson instead of Davis would have made a lot of sense.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 22, 2008 11:46 PM | Report abuse

Craig2, agree with your view on the rookies. Also nice article on the Bleacher Report (if that was you...)!

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 11:47 PM | Report abuse

Zeke, the FD pick is hard to defend. Though I think that he would be beating out Yoder before Cooley. Perhaps we should have gone with a LB or CB at that pick, but I do not know of any DL players available at that spot that would have been an upgrade for us this year. The FO's argument is BPA on this pick so they went with Davis. If he is able to replace Yoder this year and can keep teams guessing on who is the hot receiver between him and Cooley, then maybe not a bad choice (keeping in mind that we were not expecting two injuries to DE on the first day of training camp!).

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 22, 2008 11:52 PM | Report abuse

On a non-football note, sorry to see the phillies win game one. Can't stand any delphia team winning...

Go Rays!

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 23, 2008 12:06 AM | Report abuse

To me, amateur GM, I would have emphasized 3 areas in the draft -- OL, DL and LB. Probably used 6-7 of the 10 picks in those areas. We're aging in all 3 of those areas (Griffin, Fletcher, Washington, Daniels, the whole OL)

I would have attempted to address the WR position via trade or FA. Apparently we wanted Ocho Cinco out of Cincy, though I would have liked us to go after either Houshmandzadeh or Boldin. Both would be pricey, but they would have been great fits for this team.

Would I have given up 2 of our #2 picks to get Boldin or Housh? Yes. Maybe even a bit more. Because I know they solve the WR problem, whereas draft picks are never a sure thing (statistically, the odds are below 50/50 of getting a good starter, even by drafting 2 WRs).

The approach of the Spaghetti Gang was to address WR via the draft. I was fine with all the picks except Colt, Davis and Brooks. I don't know about specific guys because I don't follow college games, just look at what positions they address.

I was OK with the DB emphasis since Rogers' comeback was in question and Springs is up there in age.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 23, 2008 12:09 AM | Report abuse

Curzon -- I just didn't see the upside with Davis. If he isn't as good as Cooley, he's not on the field much. And you don't draft in the second round for a part time player. You want a starter. You don't draft in round 2 for depth.

If Davis beats out Cooley, would it be a big improvement? Not likely. After all, Cooley is a Pro Bowl player with good chemistry with the QB.

To me, the best case scenario for Davis would be for him to be a marginal improvement over Cooley. That is a long shot to begin with and of minimal value even if it occurred.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 23, 2008 12:18 AM | Report abuse

good to have you back Lisa, it was never my goal to chase you away. please stay....

can someone get Craig Two Times a drink...

Posted by: chrislarry | October 23, 2008 12:18 AM | Report abuse

***As it stands now Moss is more important to our offense (with a long history of hamstring problems)than JC is since presumably Collins could fill in.***

I could not more vehemently or strenuously disagree with this. No way Collins can stand in for Campbell. Collins did well last year because he was a 10 year veteran in Saunder's system. The Saunders train done left the station. Remember Collins ineptitude in the preseason?? Ouch.

JC is doing all of the subtle things to help his team win. He is holding onto the ball in the pocket when being hit. See how Romo waves the ball around when he is in the pocket? (Zorn caoching, BTW) JC is taking the sack if neceesary instead of panicing or forcing a bad ball. (More Zorn coaching) He is making his progressions and making good throws to 3rd or 4th options late in plays. His throw to Davis along the sideline was remarkable in that he missed the throw...it doesn't happen much, and I think all involved would admit that JC did not have a good throwing day Sunday... but he made them when it counted. God forbid I get the opportunity to be proven correct.

Posted by: SkinsfaninKaneohe | October 23, 2008 12:18 AM | Report abuse

i agree, Fred Davis pick is the only one I got beef with....

Posted by: chrislarry | October 23, 2008 12:21 AM | Report abuse

Curzon, my SJ Sharks beat the Flyers today ... and on Saturday, too.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 23, 2008 12:22 AM | Report abuse

p1funk -- you just keep repeating the same comment, year 1 impact or else he's a "bad pick", sorry but just isn't a justifiable statement. If you are going to make claims, back them up. That's what I said, and you haven't done it. Not a surprise mind you, but you havne't done it yet.
++++++++++++++++++

Malcolm Kelly showed up for camp out-of-shape and physically unprepared for the task according to his own coach. A reasonable person would call this "bad".

He subsequently fought through hamstring and knee issues in camp. Again his coach referenced the rigors of two-a-day practices that he was physically unprepared for. This also seemed to confirm the speculation of more than a few NFL scouts, that Kelly was "brittle". A reasonable person would call this scenario "bad".

Due to lingering health issues. Kelly, according to his own coach, was losing valuable time for learning the West Coast Offense. The coach also surmised that, as a result of the setback, Kelly would have little to no impact in the first part of the season. A reasonable person would call this "bad".

Several weeks into the season. It appears that he is unable to recover from said knee issues and will have to go on IR. This is "bad", especially considering that the team was hoping he would contribute as evidenced by the fact that they did not retain any other veteran receivers aside from Moss, Randle El and Thrash.

Kelly would go on IR having contributed one catch in 7 games. This is "bad".

Thus I come to the reasonable conclusion that SO FAR in Kelly's pro career, this is looking like a "bad" pick.

This flow of logic, backed up by facts and on-the-record statements will probably not move you off of your foolish idiotic opinion. But I hope we can agree that I have at least demonstrated that my view is "justifiable".

Now, would you care to provide a reasonable argument based on facts to support your opinion that SO FAR Kelly looks like a "good" pick?

Posted by: p1funk | October 23, 2008 12:24 AM | Report abuse

Zeke, all of us are amateur GMs, so I guess we can all say what we would have done (like arm chair coaches). What I would say is who would you have picked that was available. Saying what one would do is one thing, but who are the picks you would have used? As we all know, any new coach is going to bring in their own QB and Zorn went with Colt, whom he had played golf with three years straight, so he must have known something about him. Brooks was a gamble that did not pay off, and Davis may or may not pay off. The thing about trades is that the other team also has to want to participate, so no matter how much we may have wanted Bouldin, Zona may not have wanted to give him up. Can't fault the FO if this was the case.

I guess my problem is that with hindsight it is easy to say what we would have done yet no names are mentioned to counter what the FO actually did.

Sometimes I think that (and not saying you fit this category) we have hated the Skins Owner and GM (which is what Vinny has been with or without the title) for so long that we are ready to continue to question them all of the time. I want to believe that they have turned the corner thanks to Gibbs, that I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I may be the one that ends up the most disappointed because of that, but can't help my glass half full outlook.

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 23, 2008 12:25 AM | Report abuse

curz, it is possible to be both optimistic and analytical.....

to me, Vinny is working on a clean slate due to the fact that from gibbs resignation onward its his club. No grey area....so I am willing to turn the page there and see how it goes...

On that rront I find it disheartning that we dont have some young hungry WR to beat out thrash, and I don't like the Davis pick....other than that I gotta judge what I see on the field in 2008....and me likey!

Posted by: chrislarry | October 23, 2008 12:30 AM | Report abuse

gosh darn it I am just little ole' joe the fan, and this team is on the right track, but we gotta keep workin hard, plugging away with that Skins spirit. Three areas we need to get golly gee better at (wink) are 1. Pressuring the QB, 2. all areas of special teams and c. wouldnt ya know it we always gotta be aware to not turn the ball over....but I believe the fundamentals of the team are strong....

Posted by: chrislarry | October 23, 2008 12:35 AM | Report abuse

cL, absolutely.

Glad to see that Vinny is starting out on a blank page in your book. It just seems to me (and this is just my opinion, not trying to put words in anyone's mouth) that a habit of dogging the FO is leading to the criticism of the rookies because they are not needed as much as the rookie WRs on the broncos and iggles are needed.

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 23, 2008 12:41 AM | Report abuse

Curzon, I don't name players because I don't watch college ball. I evaluate the draft strategy, not the individuals.

I think I said pretty clearly what my strategy was (back around draft time, mind you -- not hindsight). Get a Boldin or Housh and pay the price for it (mostly in high picks). Then use most of picks on the lines and LB.

But the Skins strategy was obviously different. Build with the draft.

I liked the Skins grabbing two big WRs. They seemed determined to improve at WR and so why not grab a 3rd (Jackson) who they thought was the most polished and NFL ready?

My thoughts on Colt. #3 QBs are widely available, we have Collins signed for 3 years and I believed in JC. On Brooks, I just couldn't pick a punter (a roll of the dice) over an OL that would have also been a roll of the dice.

Every other pick was defensible to me based on the positions they play.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | October 23, 2008 12:50 AM | Report abuse

Zeke, I don't think that Collins can be #2 beyond this year, and this is why Colt was drafted.

Congrats on your SJ Sharks!

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 23, 2008 1:08 AM | Report abuse

Follow-up on the SJ Sharks...in this little town I live in, Albuquerque, NM, all we have is a minor league hockey team, the Scorpions. Not much of a hockey town :(

Posted by: Curzon417 | October 23, 2008 1:14 AM | Report abuse

Many of us lived through the great JGibbs 1.0 years and the rest have heard about it and all want those times back.

These dry years have made us impatient for that time to come back (especially having to suffer through the girls getting ahead of us in SB wins!) so we lose focus on this year’s teams accomplishment with what we want to see.

The hard part is letting this team be who they are and getting us back to the SB at their pace. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and play one game at a time. As Ted Arroway said, small moves Ellie, small moves. Or as Zorn says, stay medium.

Posted by: Skins930 | October 23, 2008 1:23 AM | Report abuse

Medium.
Keep our heads.
Play smart, mistake-free football.
Let come, what may.
Inhale.
Exhale.
Repeat.
Hail! Hail!
Repeat.

Posted by: _Stumped_1 | October 23, 2008 3:38 AM | Report abuse

Oh, and Hip Hip Hooray!

Posted by: _Stumped_1 | October 23, 2008 3:41 AM | Report abuse

No more close games. This should be the week that Rock Cartwright goes over 100 yards in garbage time. I want to see Fred Davis playing in the 3rd quarter so Caption Chaos can rest. Rogers to the house - defensive scores. HB getting some reps at middle linebacker. Justin Tryon in garbage time - okay maybe not Tryon. The 4th should look like a preseason game as we rest the starters for Pittsburgh. Yeah, I'm looking ahead.

Posted by: bangkokben | October 23, 2008 8:22 AM | Report abuse

Just read through this whole post, and I now want to put my eye's out.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | October 23, 2008 8:28 AM | Report abuse

Just read through this whole post, and I now want to put my eye's out.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | October 23, 2008 8:28 AM |

Greg,

I made that mistake as well some people on here are just plain stupid.

Posted by: Flounder21 | October 23, 2008 8:30 AM | Report abuse

beep beep

Posted by: BeantownGreg | October 23, 2008 8:31 AM | Report abuse

just some food for thought....

just looking at a few of the top wideouts currently in the NFL
Roddy White only had 20 receptions or so his rookie year and under 40 his second year in the league and we all know he is proforming like a top flight receiver but i guess the nay sayers would have given up on him.. lets take another ,Brandon Marshell he had only 20 catches his rookie year and i think he has turned out ok...how about some one like a GReg Jennings leads the league in receiving yards he had 45 catches his rookie year...of course there are receivers that come right out of the gate with big numbers alot of those times its from high first round picks with crap teams that can have some mistakes and let them learn on the job we have been lucky in Washington not to have to do that..think about it

Posted by: cosmiccatnip1 | October 23, 2008 8:32 AM | Report abuse

Moss, ARE, and Thrash are simply not a winning NFL team receiving corps over a season ESPECIALLY given the injury problems all three have had.

Posted by: thinker11 | October 22, 2008 9:13 PM

Weren't the Skins in the playoffs last year...despite the injury problems to Moss, ARE and Thrash? Doesn't that constitute a winning NFL team? Not saying the Skins don't need the piks to develope but this team is led by its D, even this year. At 5-2 with a very very good defense, there is not an urgent need for the draft picks to produce. Would we like them too? Of course. But that would be the cherry on top.

Posted by: dave64 | October 23, 2008 10:29 AM | Report abuse

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