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Skins by the Numbers

It's all about the offense these days, and things have settled to where some thought they would be. The Redskins got off to a fast start, with teams not knowing how Jim Zorn would deploy his offense, and the running game clicking. The Redskins were protecting the football at historic rates in the first half of the season (6-2), committing about one offensive turnover every three or four games, while boasting virtually complete health on the starting offense.

Then things returned to the mean, with a more normal number of giveaways, the requisite injuries, and the league figuring out who could play and who couldn't, and attacking that vulnerable offensive line.

The Redskins now rank 29th in the NFL in scoring offense. They are 23rd in scoring differential. Their plummet in the standings coincides with a drop in turnover ratio (now just plus-1). They are second only to St. Louis is worst red-zone scoring efficiency. They've topped 10 points just once since October. (That has something to do with the fact that Shaun Suisham ranks last, 32nd, in field goal percentage.)

The Redskins rank 15th in total offense, which is based purely on yards. They remain sixth in total defense, and sixth in points allowed per game. They have their obvious limitations - no sacks; hardly any turnovers or big plays - but those aren't the primary problem.

As for some other notables:

The Redskins are 4-2 when Shawn Springs plays, 3-4 when he does not.

Joey Porter, who effectively replaced Jason Taylor in Miami, leads the NFL with 16.5 sacks; Taylor has one. The Redskins have no one in the top 50 of the NFL in sacks. Washington ranks 29th in the NFL in sacks generated per pass play.

The Redskins have allowed five more TDs than they have scored (27-22).

By Jason La Canfora  |  December 8, 2008; 4:30 PM ET
 
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Comments

Seems so long ago we were awaiting Campbell's FIRST turnover.

Posted by: kpayn17 | December 8, 2008 4:38 PM | Report abuse

isn't it fitting that al saunders offense is the only offense worse than zorn's offense inside the redzone?

Posted by: dealer1 | December 8, 2008 4:41 PM | Report abuse

JLa, if you're looking at this, is there a stat for number of times the defense or special teams gets the offense the ball back past midfield (or the D/ST returns for a TD).

We've gotten 1 punt return and I can only recall a handful of times where we had a short field. The 2 times we had a short field last night, we scored.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 4:41 PM | Report abuse

4th, it wasn't you, it was Greg, and it was about the draft ... I was prepping to call him out on himself in the weeks leading to this previous draft ... but I have to leave for parent-teacher conferences now. [and happy birthday to me]. out

Posted by: dcsween | December 8, 2008 4:42 PM | Report abuse

I am still with JC. Get him the protection he needs and I am sure he will put up great numbers. Thrash hasn't given us anything all year. El is so far in between that he is not that far behind Thrash.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 8, 2008 4:42 PM | Report abuse

we dont even do a good job of evaluating our own talent.

our o-lineman are built for run blocking and that is it, a pass here and there, typical NFC east football, they dont like to pass block and dont do good when they are asked to do too much pass blocking

Look back at when AL saunders first got here, gibbs had to take the plays back and start running again.

if you want a WC system, then put pass blocking lineman in there, ie heyer

Posted by: GreatOne1 | December 8, 2008 4:40 PM

Posted by: GreatOne1 | December 8, 2008 4:43 PM | Report abuse

Happy birthday Mr Sween Sir, and can I have my slipper back please?

Posted by: Redcoat | December 8, 2008 4:43 PM | Report abuse

Happy 51st Birthday Sween!!!

Posted by: dealer1 | December 8, 2008 4:45 PM | Report abuse

NO ONE is that old, dealer ... and I'm leaving ... but this was in my email:

BCS Names Germany Winner of World War II

"After determining the Big-12 championship game participants, the BCS computers were put to work on other major contests and today the BCS declared Germany to be the winner of World War II.

"Germany put together an incredible number of victories beginning with the annexation of Austria and the Sudetenland and continuing on into conference play with defeats of Poland, France, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands. Their only losses came against the US and Russia; however considering their entire body of work--including an incredibly tough Strength of Schedule--our computers deemed them worthy of the #1 ranking."

Questioned about the #4 ranking of the United States the BCS commissioner stated "The US only had two major victories -- Japan and Germany. The computer models, unlike humans, aren't influenced by head-to-head contests -- they consider each contest to be only a single, equally-weighted event."

German Chancellor Adolph Hitler said "Yes, we lost to the US; but we defeated #2 ranked France in only 6 weeks." Herr Hitler has been criticized for seeking dramatic victories to earn 'style points' to enhance Germany's rankings. Hitler protested "Our contest with Poland was in doubt until the final day and the conditions in Norway were incredibly challenging and demanded the application of additional forces."

The French ranking has also come under scrutiny. The BCS commented " France had a single loss against Germany and following a preseason #1 ranking they only fell to #2."

Japan was ranked #3 with victories including Manchuria, Borneo and the Philippines."

a few responses down:

"Goddamn England getting hosed AGAIN. They tied the number 1 team on the road at Dover, and then beat the number 1 team on the road at Normandy. And seriously, they get no style points for the absolute beatdown they put on Dresden? On the road? Stupid. Just stupid."

Posted by: dcsween | December 8, 2008 4:48 PM | Report abuse

Happy Bday Sween.

Posted by: Gweez | December 8, 2008 4:48 PM | Report abuse

I should think "Skins By The Numbers" would include the fact that Washington is ranked 6th in defense.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | December 8, 2008 4:51 PM | Report abuse

BCS ranks Washington unrankable.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 8, 2008 4:51 PM | Report abuse

From a strength of schedule persepective, the Skins opponents are a net of 7 games over .500 (excluding our head to head games). In other words, a reasonably tough schedeule. Our remaining schedule has teams combined 11 games under .500.

7 of our games have come against teams with 8 or more wins. We are 2-5 in those games.

Our record against teams with 7 wins or less is 5-1. All remaining teams on our schedule have 7 wins or less.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Happy B'day to sween.

deals- On your why can't Carlos cover the double move question, didn't he once have a great quote... something like "then they put on the double move and you can't do nothin' about it".

Somebody up here knows the exact quote.

Posted by: 4-12 | December 8, 2008 4:53 PM | Report abuse

Unfortunately I'm cancelling Sween's birthday this year. Doesn't seem fair to celebrate after the crappy performance(s) we've seen this year.

Sorry Sween, better luck next year.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 8, 2008 4:55 PM | Report abuse

It doesn't matter who is left on the schedule. With an offense that's been generating about 7 to 10 points per game lately, there is no reason to believe the Redskins can win any of the remaining three games.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | December 8, 2008 4:55 PM | Report abuse

But zce the Iggles will probably be an 8-game winning team by season's end, which says you should lose to them. The fact that they aren't an 8 win team yet does not mean they won't be.

You shouldn't add up the numbers that selectively sir...

Posted by: Redcoat | December 8, 2008 4:56 PM | Report abuse

Sween -- on the NO ONE is that old comment -- well. lets just say you're putting me in "he's only got less than a year to live" category ...

Happy Birthday

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 4:56 PM | Report abuse

I should think "Skins By The Numbers" would include the fact that Washington is ranked 6th in defense.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | December 8, 2008 4:51 PM

"They remain sixth in total defense, and sixth in points allowed per game..." -- from the above titled 'Skins By The Numbers'

Posted by: 4-12 | December 8, 2008 4:56 PM | Report abuse

Happy Birthday Sween!

Mine's on Sunday...I'll be in Whistler not watching the 'Skins :-)

Posted by: PDiddy | December 8, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

I got us winning one of the remaining games, prolly to the Bungles.

Posted by: TheTruth11 | December 8, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

I only skim most of this stuff from WaPo, but is Zorn saying he kept Portis out because he (Portis) was "trying to do too much" in the pass protection game and missing some assignments?

If that's true, my estimation of Zorn has just dropped a few notches.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | December 8, 2008 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Everybody has got to face the facts

Lost to St Louis, record 2-11
Beat Cleveland 14-11, record 4-9
Beat Detroit 25-17 record 0-13 were losing to them almost through 3 quarters. If Moss does return the punt for a TD?
Beat Seattle 20-17, record 2-11

Analysis: It is time to get real. The Skins are not that good. They will be lucky to win one out of the next three. It is great to see such loyal fans, that do not give up, but it time to see who can contribute next year.

Posted by: oldtimer4 | December 8, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Devin Thomas made a few plays last night.

I support JC, but I though last night was not one of his best. Yes, he was running from big angry Ravens all night, but some of his passes were off target.

Posted by: _Stumped_1 | December 8, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Just saying that teams with 8 wins NOW are teams that we don't do well against. Teams with fewer than 8 wins, we've done very well against. philly has us, dal and cle (next Monday night) left.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Stumped_1 if you had ray ray, suggs and crew slaming you to the ground. I am sure a couple of your passes would be off as well.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 8, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

But zce, framing it that way means that you can't even talk about who you do well/not well against until at least 8 game sinto teh season!!

"We don't do well against teams with a strong winning record" - is sort of what you said. Not surprisingly, everyone else has that problem, that's why they have those records. I think the clue is more in how hard you have found it to put away the bad teams too.

And if you think the Skins looked bad against Balmer, you should have seen the Fins there. Double ugh.

Posted by: Redcoat | December 8, 2008 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Devin Thomas is showing some signs of being able to play at this level. Small contributions are better than none (see Kelly, Malcolm)

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 5:09 PM | Report abuse

As much as I am not a fan of the rookie WR's I admit that Thomas played as well as any other Redskin receiver last night. Maybe, just maybe there is a glimmer of hope there.

Posted by: driley | December 8, 2008 5:09 PM | Report abuse

i've been meaning to ask-- everyone was clamoring for us to draft Calais (Cialis) Campbell... what has he done this year? Anything?

Anyone, anyone?

Buehler?

Posted by: TDawg1 | December 8, 2008 5:11 PM | Report abuse

wow, we sound like a chorus, zceczes.

Posted by: driley | December 8, 2008 5:11 PM | Report abuse

I only skim most of this stuff from WaPo, but is Zorn saying he kept Portis out because he (Portis) was "trying to do too much" in the pass protection game and missing some assignments?

If that's true, my estimation of Zorn has just dropped a few notches.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | December 8, 2008 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Zorn said he used Betts b/c Portis hasn't been practicing, and therefore was not as up to speed on the passing portion of the gameplan, both protection and routes. Since they were down 17-0 and had to pass, playing Betts made sense

Posted by: SwiftIT | December 8, 2008 5:12 PM | Report abuse

Im so tired of the turnover, I say just keep zorn, jc, and get some new lineman for at least the next 3 years

I know it sounds strange but you have got to get consistency, let them grow together.

Posted by: GreatOne1 | December 8, 2008 5:12 PM | Report abuse

REdcoat -- its exactly what I'm saying. Against teams that are .500-ish or worse, the Skins are good enough to win most games. Against legit playoff type teams, the Skins aren't good enough to compete.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 5:13 PM | Report abuse

Okay zce I'm cool with that. Unfortunately though that is probably the NFL definition of 'mediocre'.

Will your FO be happy with that? I'm guessing no.
Is the fan base happy with that? I'm guess h*ll no!

Posted by: Redcoat | December 8, 2008 5:17 PM | Report abuse

I know they lost, but every guy on Alabama's O-line could start for the Skins. We should draft as many of them as we can

Posted by: SwiftIT | December 8, 2008 5:17 PM | Report abuse

I hadn't seen the Ravens play prior to last night, but it was clear that the plays that really worked were plays that got wide near the line of scrimmage. Both Betts and Moss had 25 yard plays with that. Those 2 plays were almost 20% of the total offense last night

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 5:19 PM | Report abuse

i've been meaning to ask-- everyone was clamoring for us to draft Calais (Cialis) Campbell... what has he done this year? Anything?

Anyone, anyone?

Buehler?

Posted by: TDawg1 | December 8, 2008 5:11 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: TDawg1 | December 8, 2008 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Its not even teams that are .500 or better, its just any team with a legitimate defense and pass rush that we're not competitive with. We have a good defense and without Portis that's it.

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 8, 2008 5:21 PM | Report abuse

zeke- Do you still have the results of your (highly scientific) poll from the first week of the season? The one where you asked how many wins Zorny would need to keep his job? I'm guessing the consensus was that 7 was more than enough after the 0-1 start.

Posted by: 4-12 | December 8, 2008 5:21 PM | Report abuse

I think we're better than mediocre, but not playoff worthy. Still, we are in a position to get there with a strong finish.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 5:23 PM | Report abuse

jm,
yeah, i know.
I guess if we compare Flucco with Campbell:
They both did average jobs, but Campbell was under a ton of pressure and Flucco, not so much, though he had no one to throw to.

I just remember JC throwing quite a few passes near his receivers and not quite within their grasp (and in some case uncatchable).

Oh, and one hit by any of those guys and I'd be in the hospital.

Posted by: _Stumped_1 | December 8, 2008 5:23 PM | Report abuse

campbell has 19 tackles and a forced fumble.

taylor has 22 tackles and a sack.

Campbell would have been 1 draft pick and played for a long long time maybe, taylor was two picks and might play next season

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 8, 2008 5:25 PM | Report abuse

We are bound to fail if we give a new head coach the responsibility of calling the plays, and be the quarterbacks coach. This is not college where you can juggle with so many different jobs. Problem lies with the FO.

Posted by: thewayitis | December 8, 2008 5:25 PM | Report abuse

4-12,
On more than one occasion by FF bench has set the world on fire.

Trouble is, I'm too often suckered into who to play by the projected points. But of course, I don't blame myself, I blame it on my scouting team and the automated draft.

Posted by: _Stumped_1 | December 8, 2008 5:26 PM | Report abuse

campbell has 19 tackles and a forced fumble.

taylor has 22 tackles and a sack.

Campbell would have been 1 draft pick and played for a long long time maybe, taylor was two picks and might play next season

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 8, 2008 5:25 PM | Report abuse

Okay, so a dude with the same level of production (actually a little less) as a future Hall of Famer would've been better than Devin Thomas? In the long run, I think not...

Posted by: TDawg1 | December 8, 2008 5:27 PM | Report abuse

Tdawg, nice argument except that Campbell wasn't drafted just after Thomas, he was drafted just after Sleepy Davis. I don't and never have had a problem with Thomas, we were looking at him in the 1st to be on the board in the second make the pick. But then to go TE and WR after that is just stupid, we could have had Campbell, Groves, or Jason Jones all at the Fred Davis mark. That's most everyone's issue that thinks our draft was retarded.....like I do.

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 8, 2008 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Really? Davis went before Campbell?? I thought they drafted him before Davis. If not, dang. I've been shut up. Cuz cha, Davis was a wasted pick. I remember near-dooking in my pants when he was called.

Posted by: TDawg1 | December 8, 2008 5:34 PM | Report abuse

I'm not as hell bent on changing the entire O-line. I think Zorn is right when he says most of the mistakes are due to communication problems. This is why you have a guy untouched coming off the edge to take a shot at JC. On one play he was sacked, Ravens brought two guys from the left side and Samuels picked up the wrong guy leaving Sellers to block two (he whiffed on both).

The O-line gets confused at the line of scrimmage and blow coverages left and right. I agree that there needs to be some change but not the complete overhaul people are suggesting. I blame it more on the scouting/preperation/coaching than the players.

Posted by: Moose33 | December 8, 2008 5:34 PM | Report abuse

As much as I am not a fan of the rookie WR's I admit that Thomas played as well as any other Redskin receiver last night. Maybe, just maybe there is a glimmer of hope there.

Posted by: driley

Maybe Zorn and wanting them to know every place to be and not making mistake have held them back. Maybe he just need to let them play and learn from their mistakes.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 8, 2008 5:36 PM | Report abuse

4-12 ... the record for Zorn to keep his job in that survey was ... 4.3 wins (if I recall correctly ... it was a really small number. I was among the highest, saying 8-8)

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 5:38 PM | Report abuse

#48 Fred Davis
#49 Desean Jackson
#50 Calias Campbell

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 8, 2008 5:39 PM | Report abuse

Rats.

Posted by: TDawg1 | December 8, 2008 5:41 PM | Report abuse

Zorn stays, we need a legit West Coast O-Coordinator though to come in and take over play calling. Let Zorn keep working with JC cause he has made strides and played well this year and develop the game plan with the OC. Maybe then in game he won't do things like waste our last challenge and potentially a timeout for 4 yards of field position as the best possible outcome or leave his back up center on an island against Terrell freaking Suggs on a key 3rd down.

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 8, 2008 5:42 PM | Report abuse

It never makes sense not to have your best player (Portis) om the field.

As for Zorn's claim that Portis hasn't been practicing and wasn't up-to-date on the pass protection, if that was true, then why play him at all.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | December 8, 2008 5:42 PM | Report abuse

O-lines, by their nature, are hard to change quickly. Its 5 positions nearly 1/4 of all starters. Count on it being a 2-3 process. Actually, it sort of has to be a 2-3 year process, since the current starters will be 35-ish in 4 years. Would have been good for the Spaghetti Gang to have gotten started on this 2 years ago ...

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 5:45 PM | Report abuse

did I mention Martellus Bennett went 13 picks after Davis plays behind Jason Witten and has 17 catches for 261 yards and 4 TDs?

Posted by: zjfr2 | December 8, 2008 5:47 PM | Report abuse

As president-in-absentia of the DC chapter of Fans of Practice Squad Devins (FPSD), this is definitely a bittersweet day.

While I applaud our p-squad Devins' active roster signings, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my time now.

Granted, our canned food drive only collected a backpack-full of items, and it turned out that neither Devin had a need for a Jansport-load of chick peas and tomato paste.

The car wash efforts went over about the same way, since the Meguiar's sponsorship fell through and neither Devin would tell us where they live or let our treasurer Woody take their cars during practice.

Woody describes Loudoun County sheriff's deputies as "polite but firm."

Given my geographic proximity to North Thurston High School, I'm thinking of starting a new group called Fans of Former Classmates of Mike Sellers.

Posted by: freakzilla | December 8, 2008 5:48 PM | Report abuse

Davis was a wasted pick. We need lineman.
On a side note these past few weeks have been against teams not just with a good record but very good defensive teams. Who else gets Dallas, Pitt, Balt and the Giants 4 out of 5 games. Maybe San Diego. Our O line just can't handle them, actually I don't know of any O line that can. Think about this we played our 3 division foes on the road at the start of the season. Somehow we get the Girls coming out of their break at the same time we do, then we play the best defenses in the league; all with aging lines and a rookie coach. On a side not any one notice that injured players get well right before they play us or the the Gints implode after they play us? Some times its just not your year. And finally, Gibbs had this team for 4 years and really didn't address the lines. And of all people he should know what they mean in the NFC East.

Posted by: jandlml | December 8, 2008 5:48 PM | Report abuse

I just think Zorn will have to adjust if he plans on making it as a HC in this league.

Right now, I'm not a fan of his cerebral, "communication problems" approach to the game. He seems to be overthinking the game.

Also, he seems to have a streak of Gibbs 2.0 in him; a tendency to play it safe, to believe that moving one card will bring the entire house of cards crashing down.

Again, I don't see how that approach gets you anywhere in this league.

A lot of other coaches would have said, re the PR game, let's put DeAngelo Hall back there and see what he's got. But not Zorn.

The fact is, does anyone TRULY believe Hall could do any worse than ARE on PRs?

I sure don't. So the move makes sense inasmuch as there is nowhere to go but up in that facet of the game.

Posted by: MrRedskin21 | December 8, 2008 5:49 PM | Report abuse

Frank Hanrahan just said on WaPo Live that CP appears to be putting his ego before the team.

With the numbers CP has - and playing through injury, he has every right to be egotistical - and ticked off.

So we are rooting for Tampa Bay tonight, right?

Posted by: Lisa_R | December 8, 2008 5:50 PM | Report abuse

Davis, Jason Taylor, and our 1st rounder for Bengals' 1st rounder!! FTW!!!

Oh, speaking of the Bengals-- i'm going to the game (as i live in indiana)-- anyone else coming??

Posted by: TDawg1 | December 8, 2008 5:50 PM | Report abuse

+++This blog is boring !!!! JLC please promote your blog to people under 50. Seems like you have old men past there prime on here.

Posted by: Daggarforracialjustice+++

I see. You're for racial justice, but ageism is okay in your book.

And by the way, is there a secret button one pushes that gives the age of each poster?

Relax, based on the immaturity (and illiteracy) of some posters, I'd say the kids are well represented.

Oh, and it's "their" not "there."


Posted by: TheCork | December 8, 2008 5:56 PM | Report abuse

hahaha, i love cork.

Posted by: TDawg1 | December 8, 2008 6:00 PM | Report abuse

+++i've been meaning to ask-- everyone was clamoring for us to draft Calais (Cialis) Campbell... what has he done this year? Anything?

Posted by: TDawg1+++

Waaal, if his presence had kept the 'skins from trading for Jason Taylor, he'd have been worth it.

Posted by: TheCork | December 8, 2008 6:02 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***

Was looking at Peter Kig's players of the week. He called out 2 guys on offense and one ST. They all went against me!!

westbrook ... Forrest had them playing against me in FF
Schaub ... playing against my GB defense
jints teams ... Forrest had them ...and they blocked and returned a short FG attempt for a TD ... and then blocked another.

I'm having a decent week in FF, but Forrest had his best week all season (121 pts, only the 2nd time all year he reached 100). I have 82, with two guys left to play. Its a long shot for me (DeAngelo Williams and Matt Bryant). The other playoff is tied at 64, with 3 guys left to play.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 6:03 PM | Report abuse

In 13 games, Lions have scored more points than the Skins. FRIGHTENING.

Posted by: rachel216 | December 8, 2008 6:08 PM | Report abuse

Heyer is not an NFL lineman at this stage in his career. He looks as soft as my belly.

Posted by: rich20ssu | December 8, 2008 6:15 PM | Report abuse

+++i've been meaning to ask-- everyone was clamoring for us to draft Calais (Cialis) Campbell... what has he done this year? Anything?

Posted by: TDawg1+++

Waaal, if his presence had kept the 'skins from trading for Jason Taylor, he'd have been worth it.

Posted by: TheCork


snarky and accurate.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 6:21 PM | Report abuse

In 13 games, Lions have scored more points than the Skins. FRIGHTENING.

Posted by: rachel216 | December 8, 2008 6:08 PM

That speaks to how good our defense is. Not sure why there are so many post on lack of pass rush when the obvious problem is the offense and the inability to score points.

Posted by: Curzon417 | December 8, 2008 6:23 PM | Report abuse

+++i've been meaning to ask-- everyone was clamoring for us to draft Calais (Cialis) Campbell... what has he done this year? Anything?

Posted by: TDawg1+++

Waaal, if his presence had kept the 'skins from trading for Jason Taylor, he'd have been worth it.

Posted by: TheCork

While this is true, and using hindsight, if we would have known how good D Evans was going to play plus how little JT was going to contribute, we could have just kept our draft picks (even without drafting C Campbell) and not made the trade. That is completely on the FO!

Posted by: Curzon417 | December 8, 2008 6:30 PM | Report abuse

Curzon ... its because our defense gives us a long field to work with. Which comes from turnovers, typically caused by a good pass rush.

And, as one who liked the Jason Taylor signing because it meant we were looking at a serious playoff run ... I was wrong. I was holding out hope that he'd make big plays in the stretch run, but he isn't getting it done (though inexplicably, they haven't let him play an entire game at RDE, his best position, either...). Of course, I also wanted us to get Anquan Boldin (or TJ Hoshmandzadeh) to solve the WR issue ... they are tied for 3rd in the NFL in receptions. That was a better call.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 6:35 PM | Report abuse

Hello, Ashburn? BWAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHHAAAAA!!!!

Principles of the West Coast Offense

Protecting the Quarterback-We will protect the passer with a variety of protection schemes. Additionally, we will use the principle of a 'hot receiver'. This means that when the defense sends more rushers than we have blockers, one of our receivers will be available, allowing the quarterback to get rid of the ball before the rushers get to him.

Timing Passes-Our routes have been set up so that the quarterback is able to deliver the ball right as the receiver is making his break. In other words, the depth of the receiver's route has been timed so as to correspond to the depth of the quarterback's drop.

Use of Multiple Receivers-We will use as many as five eligible receivers on every pass play. Our routes will complement each other so that against man coverage there will be a 'clearing' action, and against zone defenders will have to choose who to cover, and who not to cover.

Reading the Defense-It is important that both the quarterback and the receivers be able to read the coverage of the defense. The quarterback needs to be able to choose the receiver he is going to throw the ball. The receivers need to be able to recognize the coverage, too, so that they can make necessary adjustment to their routes, or even run entirely different routes.

Running and Passing Plays are Complimentary-Our offense is a system, with the running game and passing game complimenting each other. We will run and pass from all personnel groupings and
formations. Runs will set up passes, and passes will set up runs. It is an entire system, and entire offensive philosophy we intend to establish, not just a running or passing philosophy.

Practicing the Fundamentals-We will practice, over and over again, the fundamentals of our offense. From the repeated practicing of the fundamentals and plays, we will be able to execute our offense in a highly efficient manner.

Posted by: Peaux_Sucent | December 8, 2008 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Watching promos for Danny's other business venture, Valkryrie, and I'm wondering couldn't Cruise have mustered up some kind of German accent for the role? Seriously, a little more effort, dude, so you don't sound like you walked out of the MI3 wrap party straight to new set.

Posted by: Peaux_Sucent | December 8, 2008 6:56 PM | Report abuse

Excellent, freakzilla! LOL!

Posted by: Peaux_Sucent | December 8, 2008 7:00 PM | Report abuse

My last comment of the day that proves most NFL commentators don't do any real research, but just comment on the footage in front of them. On Total Access, "Coach" Mora just said Laron Landry was "one of the best safeties in the league." Based on what? He had 1 interception and forced 1 fumble last night. I watched every game he's played in and for the most part, you see him running up to the ball after the ball carrier is on the ground or in the end zone...

Posted by: Peaux_Sucent | December 8, 2008 7:08 PM | Report abuse

First, no Donovan McNabb for the 2nd half of the Iggles/Ravens game. Now, no Clinton Portis for the 2nd half of the Skins/Ravens game.

Jasno, there's a Pulitzer out there if you can crack the subliminal messaging or other weird psyops tricks the Ravens are pulling off on the visitors sidelines/locker room to compel opposing coaches to make these types of stupefying choices.

Adam

Posted by: wtf_is_up_with_wp_registration | December 8, 2008 7:18 PM | Report abuse

Reading the defense in a WCO offense. Bill Walsh would have the receivers run right at the cover guy. If it was zone, the cover guy would move to the zone. If it was man, the cover guys would let the receiver come to him.

The receiver has two patterns, one for zone, one for man coverage. Depending on how the cover guys react, the QB could instantly tell the type of defense. Walsh took a lot of pride in how rarely his QB and WR got mixed up on the pattern being run.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 7:20 PM | Report abuse

Here are my notes from the game-

- The 3 pass catching Rookies cop a bit of flack, but do you think the coaching staff needs to accept some responsibility for their lack of progress? Not only the teaching factor, but also how they're used, Devin Thomas is averaging 7.4 yards a catch, and both Malcolm Kelly and Fred Davis are averaging 6 yards a catch. Let them loose!

- It's so frustrating seeing ARE used on Fade patterns when you've got a tall guy like Malcolm Kelly in the lineup. But I guess when Mal has as many drops as catches I can't complain.

- Good to see DT showing some more signs of improvement. (Someone better tell him to protect the football after the catch, holding the ball in one hand is asking for trouble, especially against the Ravens!)

- We better be keeping DeAngelo Hall, in 4 games he's had 2 INTs and a fumble recovery, and in a takeaway starved team, those numbers are GOLD!

- Good to see LaRon get his first non-Hasselbeck INT. That's two picks in 3 games for him, hopefully it's a sign that we're starting to utilise him better.

- When Samuels went out, I would've thought it made more sense to move Heyer to LT, and Geisinger to RT.

- Soupy is a little like Zorn's playcalling, has the ability to rip off a brilliant play, but they are few and far between.

- Is Mike Sellars the biggest 3rd Down back in the history of the game? I love how much he's been getting the ball lately!

- I think ST Coach Danny Smith might come under fire at the end of the season. Nobody fears any part of our Special Teams. Our Punting, Kicking, and Punt Returns are all poor. Kick Return is our best area, but being consistently good is different to being game breaking.

- I think they should credit Casey Rabach with a forced fumble, not Ed Reed.

- I think John Madden summed it up best when he said our offense, just isn't good enough to beat a good defense. With the exception of the Rams game, all our losses are to teams whose defense is rated in the top ten in the league.

Posted by: kost52 | December 8, 2008 7:22 PM | Report abuse

I thought the West Coast offense emphasized short drops by the QB and a horizontal passing game?

What happened to all that?

It's pretty clear that you can't run that style with this talent. Which is why they were running things at the start of the year before injuries and adjustments by the defense shut things down.

Either we get different talent or a new scheme.

Posted by: SteveMG | December 8, 2008 7:28 PM | Report abuse

I want Synder gone,

I want campbell gone enough already .


please ! someone buy the Redskins.

Posted by: jrak1 | December 8, 2008 7:32 PM | Report abuse

Is Vinny still the GM?

Posted by: Poopy_McPoop | December 8, 2008 7:33 PM | Report abuse

please ! someone buy the Redskins.

Posted by: jrak1 | December 8, 2008 7:32 PM
------

Just imagine my predicament. I'm both an O's and 'Skins fan hoping/waiting for the sh!tty owners to sell and I don't see either doing so anytime soon.

Posted by: Poopy_McPoop | December 8, 2008 7:35 PM | Report abuse

Non-FB post:


Italy Makes Blogging A 2 Year Jailable Offense. They Didn't Mean To, But Still. Italian Government Response? 2 Bloggers Down, 4,999,998 To Go

http://bonehead.oddballs.com/ItalyBansBlogging.html

Posted by: Curzon417 | December 8, 2008 7:36 PM | Report abuse

MIA: Any breaking down by this writer about WHAT IS GOING ON behind the scenes.

Posted by: columbiard | December 8, 2008 7:41 PM | Report abuse

The poopity poppers on this blog often forget that the redskins featured a west coast offense for 7 years in a row!!! And it wasn't pretty because for starters they never had a good QB ... with the possible exception of Trent Green. Casserly drafted poorly (except at RB). Lost his job, went to Houston lost his job there. His best year drafting was the year he left.

At this point one wonders if Zorn might be another Norval Turner ... except JOE GIBBS AND Greg Williams left him some decent players to work with. So, he has done far better out the chute.

Norv had the same problems. A dearth of wide receivers and quarterbacks who really could never master his system. Poor drafts. Wasted first round picks at QB and wide receiver particularly. When Danny brought in all the expensive vets at the end was when they almost made it to the NFC championship behind Brad Johnson.

Gibbs, Williams et al weren't perfect but they were headed in the right direction ... the right mix of veterans and youth ... lest we forget Heyer was an undrafted rookie free agent. Gibbs and company kept him ... would Vinnie?

Vinnie began short-circuiting that by keeping all the mostly worthless draft picks instead of the veteran backups they had in order to make himself look good.

Vinnie has to go ... I guess we are going to have to hope for Cower as his deal will give him sufficient control to keep Vinnie out of the picture (hopefully).

Posted by: periculum | December 8, 2008 7:45 PM | Report abuse

two of the last three years we ran the table and got in and we had more difficult scenarios to manage than this go round. we can do this but the first step is the hardest: we must win out. give one of the wildcards to TB or Carolina (but we should be rooting for TB as Carolina has more divisional losses and has a harder road). we are fortunate this year in that we have no head-to-head issues with any teams chasing wildcards. we have 4 conference lossess and 3 divisional lossess. philly is not an issue as u must assume we beat them in two weeks winning the head-to-head. dallas currently has 4 conference lossess and 2 divisional lossess...them losing to either the giants or philly is a must and then we win the tie-breaker...saints and the bears are not an issue as they have 5 conference lossess...the last challenge then is atlanta and they must lose to either TB or at the vikes (they wont lose to the rams on the last weekend for a playoff spot)...dont listen to jason lc...keep the faith...they shoulda played the kids earlier but now they gotta stay focused on the playoffs until time is up...i would take the skins in round one on the road at either the vikes or cards!

Posted by: vincenthowell | December 8, 2008 7:57 PM | Report abuse

- I think John Madden summed it up best when he said our offense, just isn't good enough to beat a good defense. With the exception of the Rams game, all our losses are to teams whose defense is rated in the top ten in the league.

Posted by: kost52 | December 8, 2008 7:22 PM =============================================

What did you think of John Madden opening the broadcast by saying this was all going to be on J.C., Zorn, and the passing game because the skins have a good offensive line?
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | December 8, 2008 8:06 PM | Report abuse

What did you think of John Madden opening the broadcast by saying this was all going to be on J.C., Zorn, and the passing game because the skins have a good offensive line?
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | December 8, 2008 8:06 PM

I think he was wrong, maybe Madden hasn't seen enough of us this season.

Posted by: kost52 | December 8, 2008 8:17 PM | Report abuse

Can someone start a petition online to get the owners to sell? If we get a half million signatures, heck that would send a message.

Posted by: dc4mckinney | December 8, 2008 8:18 PM | Report abuse

www.ipetitions.com has a very easy to use site for creating petitions.

Bonus points for writing a cogent and thoughtful rationale for getting people to sign.

Posted by: PDiddy | December 8, 2008 8:24 PM | Report abuse

Maybe I will try, if I don't poop out by the time my show has finished downloading from iTunes. Check back here to help me. Thanks.

Posted by: dc4mckinney | December 8, 2008 8:31 PM | Report abuse

I think that's being generous, kost52.

Anyone who'd take even a tiny look at the stats would notice we've been getting blown up in pass protection since the season went sour.

My reaction was Madden comments = our offensive line against the Steelers, Giants, and Ravens.

Heck, even the Cowboys managed to eek out a win by exploiting our front five.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | December 8, 2008 8:48 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***

I need 39 FF points to win my matchup with Forrest. So far, I have none.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 8:57 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***

Update .... I need 39 FF points to win my matchup with Forrest. So far, I have -1 point (SOB hit the upright on an FG attempt).

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 9:07 PM | Report abuse

Whew!!!!

Took me a while to catch up with all the posts, and armchair GM's, so let me give it a shot. There's a lot of blame to go around so here it goes...

Dan Snyder

1) never had the skills or patience to lay the foundation of a winning franchise.

2) wasted money for years. I think he has settled down considerably but so much money spent over so many is still taking it's toll

Vinny Cerrato

1) I actually think the jury is still out on Vinny...I'll explain later.

Joe Gibbs

1) No one wants to throw rocks at Jesus Joe, but alot of this falls on him...our offense has inferior, God-fearing talent that he called "core Redskins" that may not get in barfights but scare no one on the field. Gibbs was loyal to a fault to veteran players and always thought we were close.

2) Gibbs was here for Archuleta, Pierce, Lloyd, Duckett, Brunell, but also here for some good pickups Fletcher, Cooley, Moss, etc.

Back to Vinny...

Vinny of course deserves some blame, but I think Vinny is moving in the right direction. We've got youth but they don;t play because we always think we're close.

Zorn

1) I fully blame Zorn for the alck of contribution of the rookies. Thomas and Kelly should be playing...period. I don't give a damn if they run the wrong route or not...throw the ball to wherever they end up.

2) I blame Zorn for the ARE debacle. he is a joke in punt returns and has been for years. For him to continue this is ridiculous and Vinny should intervene.

SICWIDIT OUT!

Posted by: rickyroge | December 8, 2008 9:19 PM | Report abuse

SICWIDIT'S ONE LINERS TO SUM ALL THIS SH** UP!!!

1) Those that want to fire Zorn are idiots!

2) To continue to have ARE on punt returns is absolutely assanine!

3) Sign D'Angelo Hall

4) 2009 WR corps (Moss, Thomas, Kelly)

5) Waive Washington, Springs, Griffin, Kendall, Doughty...

6) Have Portis to be more of a pass catching back. Won't last two more seasons this way.

7) Stay the course with JC

8) Coach up the young OL, but let em' play

9) Pick up one stud OL (RT)

10) I think we have talent in the wings on the DL.

11) Notice how hungry Thomas looks on the field.

12) Why would you throw a fade to 5'9" ARE?

13) I applaud Zorn for standing up to Portis.

14) I like Betts in the passing game; Portis in the running game

OUT!

Posted by: rickyroge | December 8, 2008 9:35 PM | Report abuse

snip:

_______________________________________________
2) Gibbs was here for Archuleta, Pierce, Lloyd, Duckett, Brunell, but also here for some good pickups Fletcher, Cooley, Moss, etc.
_______________________________________________


Pierce yes. Archuleta maybe on Williams.
Brunell got them to the playoffs. Where is Patrick Ramsay today? If he had stayed and competed he might be starting right now. They might be winning more games. Brunell played
the role he was brought in to play.

Duckett: Snyder Vinnie.
Lloyd: Snyder Vinnie. Maybe Saunders.
There is no way Gibbs would ever want
a non-character type like that.


Posted by: periculum | December 8, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***

finally in positive numbers for the night, with 2 minutes to go in the half, got 8 points -- only 31 more to go (ugh)

Dang Panthers ... they gave it to the wrong RB at the goal line.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 9:49 PM | Report abuse

1). Get rid of Vinnie.

2.) Hire a real personnel guy.

3) Sign D'Angelo Hall - NOW!!!

4) 2009 WR corps (Moss, Thomas, Kelly)
Plus another good Free agent pickup.
Waive ARE.

5) Waive Washington, Griffin, Kendall, Doughty...
2009 DB's: Springs, Hall, Rogers, Smoot,
Horton, Landry. Best in the NFL.

6) ON OL they a tackle (1st) and a guard (2nd
3rd)

7) DL needs a pass rush run + run stopper.

8.) Need a "stud" outside linebacker / DE type.
DeMarcus Ware, Suggs etc.

9.) Draft a stud pass catching, blocking, running
halfback.

Betts is far and away superior to Portis catching balls out of the backfield. Portis could be released if they draft stud RB. Portis makes the most money on the team. They've tried with him, it hasn't worked. Time for change.

Posted by: periculum | December 8, 2008 9:50 PM | Report abuse

They probably will go for Ted Gin if he is available but I suspect he won't be. So, hopefully they will go for, 1st aDB or a DeMarcus Ware type LB/DE.

Posted by: periculum | December 8, 2008 9:55 PM | Report abuse

Sicwidit, I don't understand #6 vs. #14:

6) Have Portis to be more of a pass catching back. Won't last two more seasons this way.

14) I like Betts in the passing game; Portis in the running game


Please 'splain.

Posted by: freakzilla | December 8, 2008 10:01 PM | Report abuse

I cannot believe no one gets it!!! Why isn't anyone pushing for Brennan. Sam Bradford from Oklahoma is going to be a top draft pick and the person who's records he is chasing is Colt Brennan's. Brennan is perfect for the west coast and most importantly he can quickly read defenses, can release the ball quickly, and is accurate. At Hawaii he played in a vertical passing scheme and passed nearly 80% completions. It was not a dink & dunk attack like the way JC is playing.

Posted by: fortysteps | December 8, 2008 10:02 PM | Report abuse

Periculum,

I agree but disagree...I don't think you get rid of Portis. I think you abandon the philosophy of Portis as a between the tackles guy...Sure he racks up yards, but he and this old O-line can't sustain it. Zorn has to use Portis and Betts interchangeably.

Posted by: rickyroge | December 8, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

6) ON OL they a tackle (1st) and a guard (2nd
3rd)

Portis could be released if they draft stud RB.
=============================================
Now watch Vinnie pull a rabbit out of his hat.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | December 8, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

SICWIDIT'S ONE LINERS:

1) Those that want to fire Zorn are idiots!
YES

2) To continue to have ARE on punt returns is absolutely assanine!
YES

3) Sign D'Angelo Hall
YES (and I wasn't in favor of his pickup ... but still think we need to be careful, on the $$ involved and attitude)

4) 2009 WR corps (Moss, Thomas, Kelly)
ARE still belongs, just not on punt returns

5) Waive Washington, Springs, Griffin, Kendall, Doughty...
YES, it appears that most will be easy calls to make given the price/injury history. I could see some staying as backups ... at backup $$

6) Have Portis to be more of a pass catching back. Won't last two more seasons this way.
YES by the time ou o-line is rebuilt, Portis will need to be rebuilt.

7) Stay the course with JC
YES

8) Coach up the young OL, but let em' play
We play our best OL until we lose one more

9) Pick up one stud OL (RT)
they grow on trees, don't they?

10) I think we have talent in the wings on the DL.
where? who? I would like to see Lorenzo get more PT. The Skins need to give him a chance at a set job.

11) Notice how hungry Thomas looks on the field.
He is improving and still looks like a rookie

12) Why would you throw a fade to 5'9" ARE?
YES. I hate fade patterns anyway. Even worse now with the new 2 feet in rule.

13) I applaud Zorn for standing up to Portis.
when? this week?

14) I like Betts in the passing game; Portis in the running game
I like Portis in the run game, both in the passing game.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 10:04 PM | Report abuse

fortysteps...

I'm not sold on Campbell, but I think you stay the course. However, I think Zorn should have an open competition. It would be intersting to hear Zorn compare the two QB's and why he feels JC is the best QB to run this offense.

Posted by: rickyroge | December 8, 2008 10:06 PM | Report abuse

rickyroge, I don't think either you or Periculum gets it.

This team worked well when it had a line that could block.

Now it doesn't. So the solution is to change all the parts that aren't broken?

That's not a formula for success. Fix the O.L., and the rest will follow.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | December 8, 2008 10:07 PM | Report abuse

zcezcest1...

I think Wilson, Evans, Jackson and Alexander could be solid contributers. Wilson could be a stud, but they have to PLAY!!!

I think Zorn came in here, saw he had some pretty good pieces and got big production early. I doubt this is even half of Jom Zorn's offense. This is Gibbs' offense. No more applauding Jim Zorn for tailoring Zorn's offense to the players. Either run your offense with these players or get some ones that fit your scheme!

Posted by: rickyroge | December 8, 2008 10:12 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***

Been just a tough week in FF for me. All the little things that need to happen when the other guy has it all going well.

So far, I had my FG kicker hit the upright, costing me 5 points. LenDale White lost 1 yard on 4th down at the 3 yard line on his last carry of the game. He goes from 100 yards to 99, losing 2 FF points. A score and he gets 6. 8 points lost there. In this game, DeAngelo Williams gets the big yards during the drive, but after the 2 minute warning (meaning DeAngelo got his breather), they give it to the #2 back to score from 2 yards out, costing me 6 FF points. Small stuff, but it adds up to 19 points -- so I'm down 30 instead of 11 with 1/2 to go ...

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 10:14 PM | Report abuse

Hey ifthethunderdogdontgetya...

Fair point, but with a healthy O-line, this offense does not have the talent at the skill positions to win a championship. We ain't winnin' nothin' with Moss, ARE and James Thrash.

Posted by: rickyroge | December 8, 2008 10:15 PM | Report abuse

ricky, I agree with you on Wilson (he looked promising last year) and Alexander. Evans has already proven he can play. But I don't think they are likely to be anything more than rotation guys, as opposed to impact guys. Got no problem with that, you want a lot of guys who can play effectively. But you also need a couple guys who are real threats. The two guys earning those paychecks, Taylor and Carter ... well, they're not earning their paychecks

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 10:18 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***

In the other semifinal, so far Zornskins is surviving 4th's challenge. He has Steve Smith and the Panthers defense, while 4th has Warrick Dunn. Dunn hasn't gotten much and neither has Smith, but the Panthers defense looks to be adding enough points to carry the day. Unless Dunn makes a big splash or the Panthers defense starts melting down, Zornskins will go the the championship game

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 10:23 PM | Report abuse

RickyRoge,

Once (if) we are mathmatically eliminated, I'd like to see CB have a start or two.

Posted by: fortysteps | December 8, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***
about that Steve Smith has gotten much done ... scratch that. Zornskins is in great shape to move on.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

We need to draft/pick-up a monster DT. Having someone at tackle that occupies two blockers will open up the pass rush for our ends (JT, if he is here next year, Carter, Wilson).

Sic, are you sure ARE is that tall?

Posted by: Curzon417 | December 8, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Hey ifthethunderdogdontgetya...

Fair point, but with a healthy O-line, this offense does not have the talent at the skill positions to win a championship. We ain't winnin' nothin' with Moss, ARE and James Thrash.

Posted by: rickyroge | December 8, 2008 10:15 PM
============================================
I'm not so sure about that. The point has been made that our defense doesn't get us short fields and score TDs for us.

But our defense is usually spending most of the game just trying to keep us in it. What if we were up in the 4th quarter more often?

That's my point. The O.L. changes everything. Earlier in the season, they were healthy, but not young or dominant. I don't see us winning until in the NFC East until this is fixed.

(I'm also going to say that doing nothing about the aging O.L. is totally the fault of Danny and his football genii.)
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | December 8, 2008 10:36 PM | Report abuse

I don't see us winning until in the NFC East until this is fixed.

This is what Sunday night Skins losses do to me.

P.S. Work was he11.
~

Posted by: ifthethunderdontgetya | December 8, 2008 10:48 PM | Report abuse

"That's my point. The O.L. changes everything. Earlier in the season, they were healthy, but not young or dominant. I don't see us winning until in the NFC East until this is fixed."

They weren't young but they were dominant. The games at Dallas and Philly were representative of that. Portis averaged over five yards a carry and that it now down to 4.7 or 4.8. (for the year) prolly less than three in the last two games.

Posted by: bangkokben | December 8, 2008 10:49 PM | Report abuse

Curzon, spent some time watching Carter and Taylor. Both guys are getting handled one on one. You'd hope that their miserable sack numbers and lack of pressure would be due to constant double teaming. Alas, your hope would be misplaced.

The great d-lines are the ones where two guys need to be double teamed. The great Rams Fearsome Foursome had Deacon Jones and Merlin Olsen. Two guys the couldn't be handled man on man. So they dominated.

The Skins best was Dave Butz and Dexter Manley. Wo guys who just were too tough one on one matchups.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 10:53 PM | Report abuse

My first comment in a minute...

Last night's "L" was tough to watch, but in my humble opinion, it's time to see what the youngsters can do, especially since it's going to take a miracle to make the playoffs. A lot of teams will have to catch "Ls" and the Skins will have to win out to have a chance. I'm glad Zorn started getting Sellers the ball. Dude is a beast.

For Offense: Heyer and Rhinehart should be the starting tackles for the remainder of the season. Thrash should be the 5th WR, allowing Thomas & Kelly to be 3rd & 4th. Line Davis up in the slot for route running and in-line for blocking since he doesn't quite know when to release from the line.

For Defense: Lets see what "Area 71" can do. Set Moore at FS & put Landry at his more natural position of SS where he can destroy folks with regularity. Evans should be the starting DE along with a rotation of Taylor & Carter on the other side.

Changes for Next Season:
Deuces to Springs, Jansen, Taylor, Carter & Griffin. Sign Hall to an extension and re-sign Rogers & Campbell to a modest deal. Address DL, OL & LB through FA & Draft

Finally, how much longer until the lease @ FedEx Field expires? Unless Snyder invests some money into the current stadium with upgrades to the jumbotron, etc, the Skins really need to go back to DC and build a state-of-the-art stadium near RFK or Nationals Park. They should really take note of what Cincinnati did with their downtown setup... It's good stuff considering I'm a former DMV'er.

Off the soapbox... Holler!

Posted by: JinxMan | December 8, 2008 10:59 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***
Twice tonight, Carolina gets inside the 5 yard line and instead of going with DeAngelo, who has scored most of their TDs from the RB spot, they give it to Stewart, who has both rushing TDs.

Had chances to make a move. If its Williams that got those TDs, its 12 more points and TB FG attempt that hit the upright was a 5 point hit. Those 17 points I missed out on hurt. I trail by just 14, but there's only 8 minutes left

It all adds up to a Zornskins vs Forrest finale next week. Me and 4th get to play in what's up with this sh!t runners up game.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 11:08 PM | Report abuse

Gibbs took the best team Spurrier could cobble together in between rounds of golf and made them into a competitive team.

He did not value draft picks properly in his first year -- the 2nd for Portis and the 3rd for Brunell were more than they were really worth, but last time he had a draft, there were 12 rounds.
But he got a bunch of good players.
Ray Brown (16 - 14 - RET)
Khary Campbell (9 - 15 - 14 - 16 - 13)
Ryan Clark (15 - 13 - FA)
Phillip Daniels (5 - 16 - 16 - 15 - IR)
Demetric Evans (12 - 16 - 16 - 16 - 13)
Cornelius Griffin (16 - 13 - 14 - 16 - 12)
Walt Harris (16 - 13 - FA)
Cory Raymer (15 - 2 - RET)
Joe Salave'a (15 - 14 - 13 - RET/FA)
Mike Sellers (16 - 15 - 16 - 14 - 13)
Shawn Springs (15 - 15 - 9 - 16 - 6)
James Thrash (16 - 12 - 16 - 13 - 13)
Tom Tupa (16 - RET)
Marcus Washington (16 - 16 - 14 - 12 - 8)

paid for
Scott Brunell (9 - 16 - 10 - 0 - FA)
Clinton Portis (15 - 16 - 8 - 16 - 13)

and drafted
Sean Taylor (15 - 15 - 16 - 9 ...
Chris Cooley (16 - 16 - 16 - 16 - 13)
justaguy #1
justaguy #2

That's half the active game-day roster... before he even held a team meeting.

No, my friends, Gibbs was not the problem. Just think what another year of Spurrier - Vinnie - Snyder would have done. I'm curled up in a fetal position just typing that sentence.

Posted by: daggar | December 8, 2008 11:08 PM | Report abuse

Zeke, not having seen all of the games, I guess my hope has been misplaced. Not sure what is up with Carter this year...part of my hope is that Wilson and Jackson would be more of the rotation to help with the speed rushing...do think the priority on DL should be a pocket collapsing DT, which I hope would help the ends.

Posted by: Curzon417 | December 8, 2008 11:09 PM | Report abuse

*** FF Post
In the original (and quieter) league, I needed Stewart to have a career night. Check.
I needed TB defense to hold its own. Nope.
I needed TB to contain Steve Smith. Nope.

If I'd only had the guts to swap TB defense for the Cardinals. But the Cards give you those negative points once in a while... but how does a D/ST score 25 points!?

*** end FF post

Posted by: daggar | December 8, 2008 11:18 PM | Report abuse

Curzon, I think you hit it. All 3 of the pass rushing ends have been real disappointments. Carter has been a huge let down. Never expected him to be Strahan or a Jason Taylor, but 10-12 sacks isn't asking the world. Of course, Taylor has also been MIA and Wilson, who showed some real promise, hasn't shown up anywhere so far this season.

The 3 players have 5 sacks total. Given these 3 guys are all speed rushers, you'd have expected 20 sacks or more at this point.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 11:23 PM | Report abuse

Playing for next year is for losers. The road ahead is not ravens, steelers, giants. That road has been travelled and is telling but the current road of Bengals, Eagles, and 49ers is what is now.

IF the 'skins win these then they likely will make the playoffs and will deserve it. They've had a brutal schedule.

Now the cowboys could beat the Giants, Ravens, and Eagles. Should they, they would be deserving of the last wild card spot.

There are only three teams ahead of the 'skins for the last spot: Falcons, Cowboys, Eagles.

The 'skins can take care of the Eagles, the Giants or Eagles must beat the Cowboys, and the Falcons must lose to either Tampa or the Vikings.

Every game from here on out is playoff game. If anyone loses then they're out.

Posted by: bangkokben | December 8, 2008 11:25 PM | Report abuse

Dagger, we'd both have won if only we'd gone with Antonio Bryant

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 11:26 PM | Report abuse

Bangkok -- absolutely correct. We're still very much alive in the playoff hunt and you don't play for next season when you're in the hunt. And while some people here are already conceding the season, no way the players are. Of course, had dal and ATL won ... different story. But they didn't.

Win out and we'll likely be in the playoffs.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 11:31 PM | Report abuse

impressive Panthers win tonight.

Posted by: chrislarry | December 8, 2008 11:35 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, and I had Antonio Bryant on my squad for a little while... don't remember which justaguy I tossed him for -- probably Breaston -- but it's been a long time since I've seen double digits from a WR.
And for those of you in love with DeSean Jackson, his FF value SUCKS!@!@#$@.

Posted by: daggar | December 8, 2008 11:35 PM | Report abuse

***FF
Well I was pretty nervous until Steve Smith showed up, especially with Warrick Dunn looking OK early. Feeling pretty fortunate to be headed to finals,since if I had ended up in the other semi bracket I would have lost to either team. Forrest may be peaking at the right time.

Wait a minute - Al Zeke has got some hail mary receptions here is challenging late - amazing comeback may be in the works..

Posted by: zornskins2 | December 8, 2008 11:36 PM | Report abuse

WOW!! Bryant made the most amazing catch I think I've ever seen! Then Deangelo Williams had an amazing run! This has been one heck of a game.

Posted by: ga8085 | December 8, 2008 11:36 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***

Oh so darn close. DeAngelo goes for a TD and I'm within 4 points. That missed 40 yard FG (hit the upright) by Matt Bryant cost me the shot at the FF championship.

Unless I get points in the last 2 minutes, its over. If Carolina gets the ball, they kneel down. And Tampa isn't going to kick a FG. Which means TB needs to tie this up and I can the win it in OT. OK, not gonna happen.

Forrest goes for 121, best in the league this week. I go for 117, 2nd in the league. Only one other guy crosses 100. Dang it.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 11:39 PM | Report abuse

*******FF Post*****

I'm proud of myself. I got this far without using any other NFC East players outside the skins. I could have started Derrick Mason, but I refused because he was playing the Skins.

My allegiance will not be fased by Fantasy football....

That being said, why did I start Russell? I should have started no QB at all at that rate..........

Posted by: 4thFloor | December 8, 2008 11:40 PM | Report abuse

Zorn is making me want to drink heavily. He needs to stop saying Campbell is playing okay. He's not! He doesn't have it. I can't watch JC anymore. Give me a QB with some fire in his belly who's not afraid to take a chance. The only place JC is going to lead us is straight into the fires of hell.

Posted by: austin987654 | December 8, 2008 11:40 PM | Report abuse

Zornskins, you deserve the championship, you've been dominating all year -- but I'd have like to have had the shot next week.

Still, its tough to think that I would have won if Bryant had gotten that 40 yard FG

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 11:42 PM | Report abuse

4th, you and me both. I refused to use any NFC East guys other than the Skins. And I almost completely avoided playing my guys when they played against the Skins.

So yes, I'm OK with how far I got as well.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 11:47 PM | Report abuse

*** FF ***

Forrest was deep into the NFC East -- nearly 50 points came from either philly or nyg. Dang it.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 8, 2008 11:50 PM | Report abuse

4-12,
You were robbed.

Antonio Bryant put up 200 yards and 2 TDs.

(I still don't believe it)

Posted by: _Stumped_1 | December 9, 2008 12:04 AM | Report abuse

Z -you got it. I'm not gonna make excuses, but yeah - we see eye to eye.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | December 9, 2008 12:17 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: 4thFloor | December 9, 2008 12:19 AM | Report abuse

Watching JC from his first ever pre-season game to last Sundays, I have seen glimpses of hope in him on about 10 drives. I do not care how many playbooks he has had to leran either. This guy is a back up at best.

I want to see the kid from Hawaii brought in if we are struggling with Cincy come halktime

Posted by: strom1 | December 9, 2008 12:36 AM | Report abuse

I know -15yds for not proof-reading

Posted by: strom1 | December 9, 2008 12:39 AM | Report abuse

*** FF ***
was looking up some stats. I think after this week stats are compiled, I'll have the #1 RB (Williams), the #1 WR (Fitzgerald), the #2 QB (Rivers).

My 2nd RB (LenDale) was 17th, my TE (Owen Daniels) is about 5th, my kickers were both in the top 5 coming into this week. Had Belichek as my coach. Only poor unit was my Packer defense at about 10th.

The guy who hurt me the most was Reggie Wayne. 5 of the last 8 weeks, he's been 4 points or less, with just 1 TD. He got just 4 points this week, even though Manning was throwing it like old times.

My flex guys were a challenge, but this week was pretty typical. I played Bess of Miami who got me 7 points. Chester Taylor (10), Devery Henderson (7) and Darren Sproles (16) were on my bench. No bad choices. Though I couldn't play Sproles since Turner never let him get the touches until this week.

All in all, I have a very strong team. Just ran into a team that was stronger this week. I got westbrooked. Plus had a bunch of tiny bits of bad luck that added up (like LenDale gaining 99 yards instead of 100 -- lost 2 FF points right there -- or Bryant hitting the upright on a 40yd FG -- 5 points).

And kudos to Forrest, who picked up TE Carlson for this week -- got him 12 points and that move turned out to be the difference.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 9, 2008 12:42 AM | Report abuse

I don't think Jim Zorn's cut out to be a head coach and is better off at just a coordinator...Dan the dummy should of never hired him to be the head coach in the first place,but were like Al Davis and the Raider and no one wants to work under our moron owner...Until we get rid of that clueless idiot Cerrato and hire someone who acutally know football,we'll continue to be this team full of washed up players.

Posted by: HailSkins14 | December 9, 2008 12:42 AM | Report abuse

We also need to bench Campbell and give Brennan a shot,i mean this is JC 3rd year playing and he continues not show improvment and i can't remember the last time he had more then 1 passing TD or how many times he's had a 300 yard passing game and i don't know how much longer i can tolerate ARE returning punts,i would rather watch one of the o-lineman return punts...Some one need to let coach Z know it's time for some changes.

Posted by: HailSkins14 | December 9, 2008 12:56 AM | Report abuse

We on the same page HailSkins14.........

Posted by: 4thFloor | December 9, 2008 12:57 AM | Report abuse

Not on the 12:56am post though. It's not JC's fault. It's the scheme and non-adjustments.....

Posted by: 4thFloor | December 9, 2008 1:00 AM | Report abuse

I can't believe that this team could make the playoffs.

Yet, the standings don't lie. If (big if at this point) the Skins beat Cincy, Iggles, and Fortiners, they're pretty much a lock for that 2nd wild card spot, because Dallas only has to lose to Gints or Iggles, and Atlanta only has to drop one of their last three (Bucs, @ Vikings, Rams). Iggles would be out by virtue of losing to the Skins.

Crazy.

Posted by: freakzilla | December 9, 2008 1:11 AM | Report abuse

the Skins are still in the hunt because ATL and dal failed to take what could have been their's. We failed this week, too. Status quo, except for the iggles. But if we win out, they're done

Posted by: zcezcest1 | December 9, 2008 1:26 AM | Report abuse

zcezcest1 - the Skins are NOT in the hunt b/c we're not winning out. Let's use our common sense.

great article about the Skins 3 past drafts: http://www.nfldraftscout.com/teams/teamdraft.php?teamid=32


Posted by: cprob001 | December 9, 2008 2:10 AM | Report abuse

Good morning folks, all's well and dandy in that Tex-ass towne we love to hate, Dall-ass. Seems Jerrah Jones is calling out Marion Librarian Barber for not playing in their last game. Read about it on Yahoo Sports and laugh. Small consolation to see one of the other two owners lamer than ours F up his own team. They must breed 'em dumb down there.
As bad as our guys have been lately, at least they don't whine and pout like the cowpies.

Posted by: ILikeSonny | December 9, 2008 2:25 AM | Report abuse

Damn, I said before the draft in here to draft all lineman and after the draft I called it a disaster. What happened? All the kool-aid drinking fans in here shouted me down!

I told you so!

You can't win with average lines especially when they are old and injury prone with no backups! We have simply worn down bc of the nature of football. It has almost nothing to do with coaching. How would you know? Campbell has about a half second to throw the ball to anyone and all those receiver picks sure panned out as well.

As long as Cerrato picks and/or Danny boy, we will be a middle of the road team!

Drink that kool-aid!

Playoffs? Your talking playoffs? Why, so we can get destroyed in the first round and get a worse draft pick?

-Rob P

Posted by: rphilli721 | December 9, 2008 3:19 AM | Report abuse

I love this talk of playoffs. To get into the playoffs you have to win games. To win games you have to have an offensive and defensive line. After Sunday's injuries we certainly have less of an offensive line, much less. We never had an offense even with the regulars playing. Unless your defense can take away 3 turnovers a game in the opposition's half of the field this offense won't score a touchdown at all. We never have had a passing attack with this screwed up WCO freak show of a draft.
Our offense has gone backwards in the last 4 weeks, completeley opposite of what logic says should be happening with a new system. Aren't we supposed to be getting better as the season progresses? Facts are facts.

Posted by: driley | December 9, 2008 6:15 AM | Report abuse

There was a couple times early in the game when Clinton was in there on pass [protection] that he should've gone out where he didn't quite get out -- trying to do extra to help our pass protection," Zorn

Yeah bench your star running back that has done more than any other player to help you get to 7 wins because he wants to make sure the QB doesn't get killed. Nice going coach.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 9, 2008 7:12 AM | Report abuse

For those of you who continue to lay blame for the Skins struggles at the feet of Jason Campbell, read Wilbon's column. I know a lot of folks up here don't like him, but he's spot on this morning. 100% correct.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 9, 2008 7:16 AM | Report abuse

brown,

Great article by Wilbon he is correct.

Posted by: Flounder21 | December 9, 2008 7:23 AM | Report abuse

Yeah bench your star running back that has done more than any other player to help you get to 7 wins because he wants to make sure the QB doesn't get killed. Nice going coach.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 9, 2008 7:12 AM

Sorry, can't blame Zorn for this one. That Ravens D would have teed off on Portis both in pass pro and running the ball. And with him as far below full strength as he is, we probably would have lost him for the season. Betts played a pretty good game all things considered; you could've had Barry Sanders in there and still lost. We got punked at the line of scrimmage and having Portis would not have changed that.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 9, 2008 7:26 AM | Report abuse

Yeah Flounder, we can only hope Vinny is paying attention. Or his mom is reading this anyway...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 9, 2008 7:29 AM | Report abuse

I have to disagree with you on two points Brown. 6 carries for 3 yards is not pretty well. If Zorn said he held out CP due to injuries and wanting to protect him. I could accept that and respect that. However, that is not what he said. This keep calling out players in public isn't cool either.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 9, 2008 7:31 AM | Report abuse

I have to disagree with you on two points Brown. 6 carries for 3 yards is not pretty well. If Zorn said he held out CP due to injuries and wanting to protect him. I could accept that and respect that. However, that is not what he said. This keep calling out players in public isn't cool either.

JM220

Posted by: icetotalpackage | December 9, 2008 7:31 AM

Yeah JM, but Betts was our leading receiver in the game and was instrumental in getting the few points we scored. And 30 yards out of Portis isn't exactly setting the world on fire. We were down 17 points and being patient with a ground game that wasn't working to begin with and using a banged up RB to do it was imprudent. I agree that Zorn needs to tone down the public critiques of his players (especially a guy like Portis who WILL fire back), but I just can't fault the guy for pulling Portis out of what was a mess from the opening kickoff.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 9, 2008 7:40 AM | Report abuse

Besides, with fantasy football playoffs starting this week, I need CP healthy for the Cincinnati game!

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 9, 2008 7:46 AM | Report abuse

- I think they should credit Casey Rabach with a forced fumble, not Ed Reed.

Posted by: kost52 | December 8, 2008 7:22 PM

I agree with this one 100% (maybe 95% with a 5% margin of error).

*** FF post ***

I'm pretty sure I'm king of the world.

*** end FF post ***

Posted by: dcsween | December 9, 2008 7:47 AM | Report abuse

Just to be clear, there were 8 OL taken before D. Thomas at #34 overall. There was one OL taken between Thomas and Kelly. There were three OL taken between Kelly and Rinehart. If you believe that Vinnie is good if he gets the tenth best OL overall, but useless if he gets the twelfth best, well, you're entitled to your opinion.
Calais Campbell -- in the mold of Phillip Daniels -- is the head-scratcher for me. He has that extra 40 lbs. of beef that Taylor is missing. I mean, I know Daniels was not hurt, but that's the pick you use to reload, work him into the lineup, groom him without needing him to start immediately. (Of course, he would have been thrust into that position anyway.)

Posted by: daggar | December 9, 2008 7:49 AM | Report abuse

Brown, I thought we handled the opening kickoff well!

Seems to me, down 14 points, Zorn decided to shut CP down -- that the dropoff from him to Betts wasn't going to be the determining factor on whether we won or lost. And that's the kind of decision that doesn't come out in the press conference. But someone -- Stump! -- should go over to the man and tell him what's going on.

Posted by: daggar | December 9, 2008 7:53 AM | Report abuse

Daggar, you can rest assured that I will be watching this draft class very carefully. If Calais Campbell, Quentin Groves, Philip Merling or Sam Baker become stars, I'll be calling for Vinny's head.

I know they weren't in a position to take him, but it would have been nice to make a run at Derrick Harvey. Dude has good size and skills and grew up in Greenbelt right down the street from the stadium.

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 9, 2008 8:09 AM | Report abuse

I posted this yesterday, but here's a re-post for those that care:

Draft day trade with Atlanta:

Redskins received:
Devin Thomas (14 rec, 103 yards, 1 rush TD)
Fred Davis (1 rec, 6 yards)
Malcolm Kelly (3 rec, 18 yards, inactive for 8 games due to injury)

Atlanta received:
OT Sam Baker (started 5 games to begin the season, had back surgery following week 5, expected to see first action since surgery in week 15)
WR Harry Douglas (21 rec, 320 yards, 1 receiving TD, 1 rushing TD, 1 punt return TD)
DE Kroy Biermann (14 tackles, 1 sack)


It'll be interesting to see which team comes out on top in that trade.

Posted by: psps23 | December 9, 2008 8:21 AM | Report abuse

anyone catch the panters/bucs game last night. The panthers offense, is what I'd like to see the Redskins emulate. Good ground game, divided between 2 guys(which is the KEY), and a good verticle game. No reason that can't be done here, once the pieces on the OL are in place.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 9, 2008 8:23 AM | Report abuse

Thanks, psps23. So we basically could have stood pat and had Samuels's and/or Jansen's replacement (at least for the next 3 weeks), a WR that has better production than Thomas, Kelly and Davis COMBINED, and a DE that has almost the exact statline as Jason Taylor. Nice work Vinny...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 9, 2008 8:31 AM | Report abuse

Well, I thought at the time that the trade with Atlanta made sense. So that takes Baker and Merling off of my watchlist -- they were both chosen before our first pick.
Groves is Andre Carter without the experience. And he fell a looong way from the early draft evaluations -- looks like he was #12 DL taken overall.
You can make the same kind of point for Calais as well -- #11 overall, clearly something about him that talent_evaluators didn't like, but he was the one guy in every couple of years with the size to play LDE the way Grilliams/Blache seem to like it.

Posted by: daggar | December 9, 2008 8:34 AM | Report abuse

nobody should ever be compared to norv the worst head coach in history especially zman. jc is still just too slow thinking for fast moving plays. he seems to be in slow mode almost all the time. i do not think he will improve although i was hoping he would.

Posted by: rls1041 | December 9, 2008 8:34 AM | Report abuse

Another day of "2008 Draft Revisited, Woulda, Shoulda, and Coulda". Should be good for some chuckles. I mean, hindsight and all.....

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 9, 2008 8:34 AM | Report abuse

Thanks, psps23. So we basically could have stood pat and had Samuels's and/or Jansen's replacement (at least for the next 3 weeks), a WR that has better production than Thomas, Kelly and Davis COMBINED, and a DE that has almost the exact statline as Jason Taylor. Nice work Vinny...

Posted by: brownwood26

I made a mistake. Malcolm Kelly was our original 2nd round pick - he didn't come from Atlanta. Justin Tryon was the 3rd pick we received in that trade.

Posted by: psps23 | December 9, 2008 8:36 AM | Report abuse

Greg, the playoffs are over. That ship has sailed and we missed it. I'm in full off-season discussion mode...

Posted by: brownwood26 | December 9, 2008 8:41 AM | Report abuse

No reason that can't be done here, once the pieces on the OL are in place.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 9, 2008 8:23 AM

I concur. The only reason it won't happen here is if JZ is determined to run his version of the WCO here. I thought the skins made strides offensively when there was combination of the WCO and "Gibbs" offense. I think JZ's offense can work, like you said once they get linemen who pass protect better.

Posted by: TWISI | December 9, 2008 8:43 AM | Report abuse

Which off-season brown, last years, or this years?

I wasn't expecting to make the playoffs, I figured if the team went 9-7, that would be a good start for a rookie head coach, and a new offense. I expect that 2009, the team should take the next step.

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 9, 2008 8:44 AM | Report abuse

anyone catch the panters/bucs game last night. The panthers offense, is what I'd like to see the Redskins emulate. Good ground game, divided between 2 guys(which is the KEY), and a good verticle game. No reason that can't be done here, once the pieces on the OL are in place.

Posted by: BeantownGreg

I agree, but I don't see it happening with Jim Zorn. He's a pure west coast guy, and it's obvious by his quotes that he feels his system will work. And unless we somehow manage to land a couple Jonathan Ogden's or Walter Jones's (guys that can both pound you with the run AND shut you down 1 v 1 in the pass) I don't see the two styles meshing.

Posted by: psps23 | December 9, 2008 8:46 AM | Report abuse

Here is a random fact for fans of epic significance,
If you count playoff games (and we all do). The Washington redskins will play their 1000th game in team history at some point towards the end of next season.

If my math is right (and wiki is correct) at the end of this regular season the team will have played 987 games, witch would make game 13 next year our 1000'th game. If we go to the playoffs then these numbers will change but none the less that is a significant day for our team, and should be marked with celebration and celebrity. The best part is we already have over 500 wins so no matter what we have a wining record.

Posted by: alex35332 | December 9, 2008 8:50 AM | Report abuse

He's a pure west coast guy

Disagree, this is not a pure west coast offense. This is more of a conglomerate of a number of offenses....did we hire Bill Cowher yet?

Beep Beep

Posted by: BeantownGreg | December 9, 2008 8:51 AM | Report abuse

Well, looking at last year's draft does help predict what will happen next year -- unless you think that if we just blog hard enough Snyder will sell the team, or Vinnie will get fired.
So -- I'm understand the decision to skip OL in the 2nd round. The pickings were getting slim. I understand Thomas & Kelly over DeSean Jackson and Eddie Royal -- they valued size over speed.
I don't understand Fred Davis. I don't understand Fred Davis over Malcolm Kelly, or Calais Campbell, or Dan Conner. If each unit evaluates their position list, and then they aggregate the lists to come up with a master player ranking list, how does TE get that high on the priority list?

Posted by: daggar | December 9, 2008 8:51 AM | Report abuse

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