Network News

X My Profile
View More Activity
On Twitter: RedskinsInsider and PostSports  |  Facebook  |  E-mail alerts: Redskins and Sports  |  RSS

Starke: Hall of Fame should add group category

In three weeks, the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee will gather in Miami and choose the Class of 2010. There are 15 finalists, but the most overdue nominee isn't even on the ballot. Or so says George Starke, the Redskins' lineman from 1973-84. He thinks he and his fellow Hogs should be admitted as a group.

"I think the way the Hall of Fame is selected is fundamentally wrong to begin with," says Starke. "Football is a team sport, and they put individuals in the Hall of Fame. The Hogs are the greatest line to ever play, so the Hogs should go in as a group, not individuals. To pick one or two out doesn't make any sense. How you going to do that, right? They should do it as a group.

"They should have a different category in the Hall of Fame for groups, like the Doomsday Defense or the Fearsome Foursome. They should have a group dynamic for the Hall of Fame."

While a novel concept, it's not likely they'll be admitted as a unit soon. But one Hog is among those 15 finalists yet again. Russ Grimm has been eligible for 14 years now, and he's going against first-time finalists, such as Tim Brown, Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith. He'd be the first Hog to be enshrined in Canton.

"I sure hope so," said Joe Bugel, who retired from coaching Wednesday. "It's amazing that that group right there went to four Super Bowls and nobody off that offensive line - Jim Lachey was good, Joe Jacoby, Russ Grimm, I think -- this is how many years for him? If he doesn't make it this time, I don't know what's going to happen really."

Part of the problem - at least for Hall of Fame voters - is that the Hogs found their success as a group, which seems to make it difficult to honor any one of them for his individual accomplishments. That's why Starke thinks they should all go in together.

Canton-bound or not, the Hogs were a unique group that certainly doesn't need plaques or bronze busts to validate its accomplishments. After all, they'll always have that nickname, which more than 20 years later still means more than any award or honor.

"When you give a group a nickname, they better back it up," said Bugel, who bestowed the nickname on his line all those years ago. "And also if you give a group a nickname, there's a lot of jealousy on a football team. This team accepted it, the whole team. They thought it was really neat. When teams started saying, 'We're going to butcher the hogs,' and stuff like that, I think they took that as a personal affront. And they were nasty."

'Burgundy & Gold' analysis


By Rick Maese  |  January 14, 2010; 7:44 AM ET
 
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Gray to interview with Seahawks
Next: Bugel: Shanahan's 'going to build the offensive line'

Comments

1st

Posted by: papashake | January 14, 2010 8:08 AM | Report abuse

Whats crazy is that they were big for their day but they would be tiny compared to the hippos they got on O lines these days. Hahaha, they were still awesome.

Posted by: FedorEm | January 14, 2010 8:12 AM | Report abuse

So what would you nickname the group of offensive linemen the Redskins had in 2009?

Posted by: RedSkinHead | January 14, 2010 8:18 AM | Report abuse

Draft OKUNG and IUPATI and start a new one. Forget QB's and RB.

Posted by: glawrence007 | January 14, 2010 8:19 AM | Report abuse

"They should have a different category in the Hall of Fame for groups, like the Doomsday Defense or the Fearsome Foursome. They should have a group dynamic for the Hall of Fame."

By Rick Maese | January 14, 2010; 7:44 AM ET

This is the type of thinking that you get from a guy who's had too many undiagnosed concussions.

Posted by: League-Source | January 14, 2010 8:27 AM | Report abuse

So what would you nickname the group of offensive linemen the Redskins had in 2009?

Posted by: RedSkinHead


The Turnstiles
The Ragtags

Posted by: RedDMV | January 14, 2010 8:30 AM | Report abuse

This is the type of thinking that you get from a guy who's had too many undiagnosed concussions.

Posted by: League-Source | January 14, 2010 8:27 AM


What's wrong with what he said? You're telling me you wouldn't want to see a section of the Hall of Fame honoring the Hogs or the Fun Bunch? We had more legendary groups in the 80s than most teams have had in their entire history!

Posted by: brownwood26 | January 14, 2010 8:40 AM | Report abuse

I love the picture of Buges on the front page. Reminds me of a line from The Waterboy:

"Ever seen a championship ring? Don't be messin' with the champ."

Posted by: Rypien11 | January 14, 2010 8:45 AM | Report abuse

The HoF should also include assistant coaches. There's no reason a guy like Dick LeBeau or Joe Bugel should miss out on the HoF just because they didn't make their contribution from the HC position.

Posted by: brownwood26 | January 14, 2010 8:45 AM | Report abuse

Sigh. I wasn't here for the Jerry Gray post so I'll comment on that.

Jerry we will miss ye. Say what you will about our secondary, they were put in their positions 20 yds off the ball by Blache, not Gray.

Looking purely at the ranking, Gray has far, far better history with the DC position than Haslett does. How much of that was Gray and how much Grilliams, we may come to find out in the next year or two if he gets DC in Seattle. Also since we're apparently not interested in keeping him with the secondary, it appears proven failure Slowik will be coaching there.

Haslett is not like Shanahan, who is a proven winner who had a couple bad seasons and got canned. Haslett was a proven failure, and that's why he isn't in the NFL anymore. I think resurrecting him will show that a year off won't make him any better than he was when he couldn't find a job last year.

It may be hard to compare them in the future since they will be in such different situations with different personnel, but I think we will come to regret Haslett over Gray. I think we won't be a top 10 defense next year too.

Posted by: REXskins | January 14, 2010 8:46 AM | Report abuse

RIP Teddy Pedergrass

It would be tough to pick which hogs went in to the hall. Stark was only a hog from 81-84. Then you have guys like Lachay and Schlereth who came in in 88-89. Raliegh McKenzie was there mostly as a backup center and guard. Would Don Warren be considered a hog? Moe Elowanibia? It would be too much of a hassle trying to pick who went in, if you ask me.

I don't know that I'd induct groups in to the HOF but it would be cool to have exhibits of the famous groups throughout the history of the NFL.

Posted by: Original_etrod | January 14, 2010 8:49 AM | Report abuse

"They should have a different category in the Hall of Fame for groups, like the Doomsday Defense or the Fearsome Foursome. They should have a group dynamic for the Hall of Fame."

By Rick Maese | January 14, 2010; 7:44 AM ET

This is the type of thinking that you get from a guy who's had too many undiagnosed concussions.

Posted by: League-Source | January 14, 2010 8:27 AM
-------------------------------------------
I have to side with Starke on this one. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Sometimes there are a group of guys who do their job better when working together than they ever would do working with someone else. I believe the Hogs were one of those groups. To the Hogs you could add the Steel Curtain, the Purple People Eaters, the Greatest Show on Turf, the Killer B's, the Posse, the Smurfs, and the Dirtbags. There are many more, but the point is, individually you couldn't name many of the players from the Killer B's, but in reality they got their team to the Super Bowl, to be, ironically, run over by the Hogs. I think it's a great idea.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | January 14, 2010 8:51 AM | Report abuse

It would be tough to pick which hogs went in to the hall...

Posted by: Original_etrod | January 14, 2010 8:49 AM


Obviously, you wouldn't have a scenario where you get 10-12 guys up front talking in the yellow jackets. The easiest way to do it would be to have a display in their honor, and have a few media folks there for a photo op with the guys listed on the display. That way, the individual inductees still get their day in the sun the old fashioned way and the Starkes, Mays, and Jacobys of the world get their honor as well (even if a bit lesser than the old way).

So easy a caveman could do it.

Posted by: brownwood26 | January 14, 2010 8:57 AM | Report abuse

Sigh. I wasn't here for the Jerry Gray post so I'll comment on that.

Jerry we will miss ye. Say what you will about our secondary, they were put in their positions 20 yds off the ball by Blache, not Gray.

Looking purely at the ranking, Gray has far, far better history with the DC position than Haslett does. How much of that was Gray and how much Grilliams, we may come to find out in the next year or two if he gets DC in Seattle. Also since we're apparently not interested in keeping him with the secondary, it appears proven failure Slowik will be coaching there.

Haslett is not like Shanahan, who is a proven winner who had a couple bad seasons and got canned. Haslett was a proven failure, and that's why he isn't in the NFL anymore. I think resurrecting him will show that a year off won't make him any better than he was when he couldn't find a job last year.

It may be hard to compare them in the future since they will be in such different situations with different personnel, but I think we will come to regret Haslett over Gray. I think we won't be a top 10 defense next year too.

Posted by: REXskins | January 14, 2010 8:46 AM |

Hey there cubicle GM was it Blatche's fault that they couldn't catch, or tackle how about that they couldn't cover very well either. I guess it's not a position coaches job to teach such skills.

Gray was a DC for 2 years and the first one of those was when GG was still running the defense.

Haslett was DC in Pitts. you don't get that job with out having some skill, plus I could care less about his record as a HC. Being a HC and DC are two different worlds, he will only have to focus on the Defense making his job easier. How many TO did are top 10 ranked defense have this year, how many times did they come up with a stop when needed?

Posted by: Flounder21 | January 14, 2010 9:00 AM | Report abuse

I like this line of thinking.

Personally I think this could be remedied by putting Boss in. But the idea of maybe having a bronze statue of the original hog line Something smallish but the HOF should do this.

Posted by: alex35332 | January 14, 2010 9:04 AM | Report abuse

I can see how it makes sense for group HOF awards, because football is a group sport.

But there is already an award for the team, it's called the Lombardi Trophy.

The HOF has always been limited and exclusive, that's what makes it so special. I don't want to see the number of individuals with HOF awards double because groups of players are getting in at a time. It would dilute the value of the HOF.

Posted by: REXskins | January 14, 2010 9:07 AM | Report abuse

"They should have a different category in the Hall of Fame for groups, like the Doomsday Defense or the Fearsome Foursome. They should have a group dynamic for the Hall of Fame."

If so, that would open up HOF for:

The Steel Curtain

The Fun Bunch

The Killer B's

The No-Name Defense

The Triplets

The Purple People Eaters

Gang Green

The Sack Exchange

The Doomsday Defense

The Capital Defense

Thunder and Lighting

The Orange Crush

The Over the Hill Gang

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 14, 2010 9:15 AM | Report abuse

The HOF has always been limited and exclusive, that's what makes it so special. I don't want to see the number of individuals with HOF awards double because groups of players are getting in at a time. It would dilute the value of the HOF.

Posted by: REXskins | January 14, 2010 9:07 AM


I see what you're saying Rex, but what is being proposed (by me, at least) wouldn't dilute that at all. If, for example, the Hogs got in as a group, they wouldn't get the speech in the stadium or the yellow jackets or the bronze bust. They'd get a display in the same area they have all the individual teams and their helmets (if you've been there, you know where I'm talking about). You get a low-key photo op surrounding it, and everybody's happy.

The way they induct individual players wouldn't change.

Now all we have to do is get sports writers off of the voting, and we'll be on to something.

Posted by: brownwood26 | January 14, 2010 9:15 AM | Report abuse

Gray was a DC for 2 years and the first one of those was when GG was still running the defense.

Haslett was DC in Pitts. you don't get that job with out having some skill, plus I could care less about his record as a HC. Being a HC and DC are two different worlds, he will only have to focus on the Defense making his job easier. How many TO did are top 10 ranked defense have this year, how many times did they come up with a stop when needed?

Posted by: Flounder21
==================

You contradict yourself. You don't give credit to Gray for the 2nd ranked defense in Buffalo because you say that was thanks to Greg Williams (HC).

But then you say it's not the HC responsibility when his Defense fails (Haslett as HC).

I'd say if the HC was hired because of defensive expertise, then it IS his responsibility to tend to the defense first and foremost.

Posted by: REXskins | January 14, 2010 9:16 AM | Report abuse

flounder21

"Haslett was DC in Pitts. you don't get that job with out having some skill, plus I could care less about his record as a HC. Being a HC and DC are two different worlds,..."


Agreed.

I think the real find might be Haslett.

A head coach mentality for a position coach is a positive as the coach's standards are going to be very high.

Look how the jets took a failed head coach in B Callahan, gave him some players, and build a great o-line.

That's what I want out of Haslett.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 14, 2010 9:18 AM | Report abuse

So what would you nickname the group of offensive linemen the Redskins had in 2009?

Posted by: RedSkinHead
i have 2

1. The revolvign Doors
2. The OMG another lineman went down to a season ending injury, who the heck are we going to plug in or move so that we dont get our QB killed and completely embarress our HOF offensive line coach who is in his last year and his blood pressure is already 310.

Posted by: skinball77 | January 14, 2010 9:18 AM | Report abuse

So what would you nickname the group of offensive linemen the Redskins had in 2009?

Posted by: RedSkinHead
i have 2

1. The revolving Doors
2. The OMG another lineman went down to a season ending injury, who the heck are we going to plug in or move so that we dont get our QB killed and completely embarress our HOF offensive line coach who is in his last year and his blood pressure is already 310.

Posted by: skinball77 | January 14, 2010 9:18 AM | Report abuse

RT @JasonLaCanfora: Special teams coach Danny Smith denied permission to interview w/Sea, Pit, Det; could be back w/#Redskins.

Surely not.

Posted by: will_ga | January 14, 2010 9:23 AM | Report abuse

"So what would you nickname the group of offensive linemen the Redskins had in 2009?"


I believe we went through eleven linemen in seven months.

How 'bout "7-11"?

'Cuz defensive lineman always found the path to Campbell open, 24-7.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 14, 2010 9:24 AM | Report abuse

rex, kind of like with the triplets, DT/FD/MK, I'm going to give the boring line of lets see what he can do when actual football is being played...recall if you will how people wanted to cut fred davis, and still bring up to this day the fact that he overslept, and giggled....but yet seems like a heck of a football player...patience...at least until a football game gets played..or two...

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | January 14, 2010 9:24 AM | Report abuse

So what would you nickname the group of offensive linemen the Redskins had in 2009?

Posted by: RedSkinHead | January 14, 2010 8:18 AM | Report abuse


The Piggies?

Posted by: Devo2 | January 14, 2010 9:25 AM | Report abuse

QB's, wide receivers, backs, and linebackers get into the hall, but linemen win the games. George Starke is right.

Posted by: boxjam1 | January 14, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

A word on Gray:

Backing guys away from the line of scrimmage was probably Blache's call and Gray shouldn't take the heat for that. Conversely, the secondary biting on double fakes, taking wrong angles, and poor tackling falls squarely on Gray's shoulders. I would grade his coaching as a "C-" for last season, but he has done better in years past, so maybe he had an overall "B" performance in Washington. When you are a position coach, I don't think an overall "B" performance gets you a d-coordinator job. I like Slowick for the secondary coach. He seems to promote a hard hitting style of defense and maybe he can toughen up D'Angelo Hall a little bit.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | January 14, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

"They should have a different category in the Hall of Fame for groups, like the Doomsday Defense or the Fearsome Foursome. They should have a group dynamic for the Hall of Fame."

By Rick Maese | January 14, 2010; 7:44 AM ET

This is the type of thinking that you get from a guy who's had too many undiagnosed concussions.

Posted by: League-Source | January 14, 2010 8:27 AM

Some people have a hard time resisting the low fruit. Even when the low fruit ain't even close to funny.

Posted by: mack1 | January 14, 2010 9:31 AM | Report abuse

So what would you nickname the group of offensive linemen the Redskins had in 2009?"

I believe we went through eleven linemen in seven months.

How 'bout "7-11"?

'Cuz defensive lineman always found the path to Campbell open, 24-7.

Posted by: MistaMoe | January 14, 2010 9:24 AM | Report abuse
------------------------------------------
That's a good one.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | January 14, 2010 9:32 AM | Report abuse

Some people have a hard time resisting the low fruit. Even when the low fruit ain't even close to funny.

Posted by: mack1 | January 14, 2010 9:31 AM


That's LS's MO...

Posted by: brownwood26 | January 14, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

The whiffington missedblockskins?

Posted by: PAskinsfan17 | January 14, 2010 9:40 AM | Report abuse

What do our new D-Coordinator and Fat Albert have in common.... not to be a jerk but funny how these thins work out

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2010/01/jim_haslett_stepped_on_terry_b.html?wprss=dcsportsbog

Posted by: alex35332 | January 14, 2010 9:40 AM | Report abuse

The London Silly Nannies?

Posted by: Rypien11 | January 14, 2010 9:42 AM | Report abuse

Sounds more like George wishes he were in...what's next? Entire coaching staffs inducted? Whole linebacking corps? Why not an entire field goal unit since the kicker can't get it through the uprights without a good longsnapper?

This year's O-Line: "The Who the F--ks?"

Posted by: kevin_rigsby19 | January 14, 2010 9:45 AM | Report abuse

Vinnie's Virgins

Posted by: c_e_daniel | January 14, 2010 9:48 AM | Report abuse

There should be no nickname for the 2009 Redskins o-line.

The 2009 Redskins should never be spoken of again.

Posted by: Original_etrod | January 14, 2010 9:49 AM | Report abuse

I thought this year's lien already had a name because I see it on menus all the time: the cutlets

Posted by: MrChili | January 14, 2010 9:50 AM | Report abuse

This is a dumb idea and George Starke isn't someone whose opinion should be taken seriously....There have been many "groups" that could be entered before the Hogs. The Chicago defense form 85, the Steelers (thought they are almost all in anyway) from the '70s, the Dallas O-Line from the '90's...it gets kind of ridiculous.

Posted by: dbunkr | January 14, 2010 9:53 AM | Report abuse

Sounds like Kevin and dbunkr are saying that there should be a cap on who goes to the HoF. Is that what you're saying? Too many great players so stop putting ALL of them in?

I'll do one better: why have a Hall of Fame? I mean, these guys probably already know they're good, who needs a bust to confirm it?

Posted by: brownwood26 | January 14, 2010 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Some people have a hard time resisting the low fruit. Even when the low fruit ain't even close to funny.

Posted by: mack1 | January 14, 2010 9:31 AM

That's LS's MO...

Posted by: brownwood26 | January 14, 2010 9:37 AM

Mack1, brownwood26,

Thanks for your feedback! I'll keep it in mind!

Posted by: League-Source | January 14, 2010 10:06 AM | Report abuse

beep beep

Posted by: frediefritz | January 14, 2010 10:07 AM | Report abuse

I think Starke has a point. The problem is applying that retroactively to include past groups. The Hall may not want to open up that can of worms.

Posted by: kahlua87 | January 14, 2010 10:32 AM | Report abuse

So what would you nickname the group of offensive linemen the Redskins had in 2009?

Brokeback Linemen

Posted by: rot8tor_man | January 14, 2010 10:40 AM | Report abuse

I do agree with the thought of groups being a category in the Hall. I remember when I watched Jacoby, a huge man of the day, big heart, big body, big feet and disproportionately tiny ankles. What a group it was! 150% of what they had to offer, every week. Their love of the team concept and for the game was there on every play. By today's standards, grossly underpaid. And what great ambiance of the Old RFK Stadium, the deafening sounds as they showcased their talents. Hard to pick an individual when week to week, game to game, someone stepped it up to be the best the group could be every time they put their uniform on the field. Yes, an individual can make it into a Hall of Fame, but where would they be without the Group that got them there?

Posted by: Sarducci | January 14, 2010 11:06 AM | Report abuse

Nice idea from Starke, but let me refresh his memory of his playing days, "HOLDING, #74, OFFENSE"...Not worthy...

Posted by: frostanna | January 14, 2010 11:14 AM | Report abuse

I agree that they should go into the HOF as a unit. Then again, Emmitt Smith didn't getthe all time record by running over many, just a few. He had gaping holes for years as Aikman was untouched for years. How so? The best offensive line in football after the Giants, who were the best offensive line in football after the 49ers, who were the best after the Hoggs.

Put the Hoggs in, but then gotta put Aikman's line in too, as they manhandled the 1990's. Again, Emmitt didn't Jim Brown folk. He ran through gaping holes.

Posted by: kedavis | January 14, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

I think the group thing goes too far. But it's an injustice that Grimm has had to wait so long, and that Jacoby's name is never among the HOF finalists. They made an awesome pair and were the foundation of the Hogs (no disrespect to May, Bostic, Warren (who should go in if they ever recognize blocking TE's) & co.). Once those two are in, we can start talking Schlereth, Lachey, and more.

Posted by: VAbeachbum | January 14, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

The Hoggs remind me of the NBA Champion Pistons group of Billups, Hamilton, Rasheed, Ben and Prince.

What a team. What a unit of great play. But not a Hall of Famer in sight. The Fun Bunch was good for a while, same as The Posse. Same as the 1983 offense that set records (until the Super Bowl against the Raiders that is). Notice that only Riggins, Green and Monk are in the HOF. That's about right. The team was very good, but not 1970's Steelers good, who were great.

Posted by: kedavis | January 14, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

The comments to this entry are closed.

 
 
RSS Feed
Subscribe to The Post

© 2010 The Washington Post Company