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Posted at 12:20 PM ET, 01/24/2011

Israel bashers, indeed

By Jennifer Rubin

Last week I reported on the letter sent to the president, urging him to embrace the Palestinian-drafted U.N. resolution condemning the building of settlements by Israel. I wrote: "The usual crowd of Israel bashers has sent the president a letter urging him to go along with a U.N. resolution condemning Israel for its settlements."

One signatory in particular, Steve Clemons, became irate over that characterization. His supporters rushed forth on other blogs and sent angry letters to me and Post management raising the specter of "libel." Let me be clear: I stand behind my characterization.

I will explain why and why I will not be deterred, as I said in my introduction to this blog, in "calling things by their proper name."

Let me start with the letter itself, which seeks to single out Israel for settlement-building. The timing of the letter is particularly inapt. This weekend we read the revelations from past negotiations, which demonstrate once again that Israeli building is not the stumbling block to a peace deal. To the contrary, the Palestinians in the past seemed prepared to give up claims to areas in which Israel has been building, including most of East Jerusalem. But the letter is more than misguided. It does precisely what Israel's foes on the world stage aim to do -- single out Israel, hold it to a different standard than all other countries, vilify it and diplomatically isolate the Jewish state. That is by definition at the very least "Israel bashing."

In testimony last April special envoy for anti-Semitism Hannah Rosenthal explained: "At the U.N., anti-Semitism and anti-Israel sentiment often overlap. United Nations' bodies long have shown a bias toward condemning Israel at a rate much higher than any other country. We continue to press for Israel to be treated fairly at the U.N. and in other international organizations." It is for this reason that presidents of both parties have repeatedly vetoed U.N. resolutions singling out Israel for condemnation.

What else is Israel bashing? I think these examples would qualify:

Accusing Israeli settlers of "ethnic cleansing."

Questioning why Israeli soldiers "shoot so many in the head."

Accusing Israel of doctoring the flotilla footage.

Cheerleading for Chas Freeman (whose statements about 9/11, Israel and China and the relationship with the Saudi government caused the Obama administration to withdraw his appointment) and warning that opposition was "a dangerous slippery slope for the Israel-Zero-Sum crowd to push."

Interviewing a Hamas terrorist committed to the destruction of Israel and the killing of civilians and asking gushing questions such as, "Is Khaled Meshal a Palestinian patriot or a Muslim patriot?"

Declaring that Obama "took down the wrong prime minister."

Writing: "Netanyahu became Obama's Khruschev by demonstrating the President's weakness over the settlements issue in the first round."

But, as I wrote, the letter is a group effort. Peter Beinart's new found Israel-bashing has been discussed elsewhere. James Zogby's comments comparing treatment of Palestinians to the Holocaust and (in a CNN interview in April 2002) accusing Israel of war crimes are above and beyond mere Israel-bashing. Stephen Walt, purveyor of the "Israel lobby" screed, was recruited to sign the letter and his signature was then touted on Clemons's blog.

I could go on, but I think I've more than made the case. I used the term "Israel bashers" with precision and based on the public utterances (a sampling of which I have listed) of the most noteworthy individuals who have signed the letter. They have every right to their opinions, but in the free exchange of ideas others have every right to reveal what those opinions are.

By Jennifer Rubin  | January 24, 2011; 12:20 PM ET
Categories:  Israel  
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Comments

"Bash" in this context means "to hurl harsh verbal abuse at". The goal of the enemies of Israel is to undermine its legitimacy and thus to destroy its ability to defend itself. Unfortunately, the mainstream media are among the worst Israel bashers. Our president is as much of an Israel bashers as 2012 politics will allow.

Posted by: eoniii | January 24, 2011 12:41 PM | Report abuse

" They have every right to their opinions, but in the free exchange of ideas others have every right to reveal what those opinions* are."

I'M going to help her out here:

They have every right to their opinions,but in the free exchange of ideas others have every right to reveal his/her opinion* as to what those opinions are.

Is this issue 100% about opinions?,or are there any indisputable facts about this?

*Too often JR believes her opinions are facts.

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 12:49 PM | Report abuse

"Bash" in this context means "to hurl harsh verbal abuse at". The goal of the enemies of Israel is to undermine its legitimacy and thus to destroy its ability to defend itself. Unfortunately, the mainstream media are among the worst Israel bashers. Our president is as much of an Israel bashers as 2012 politics will allow.
Posted by: eoniii

(1)Please show us an example of legitimate criticism of the current Israeli government that isn't "Bashing". If you cannot,that means that all criticism of the current Israeli govt is improper,is that the case?
(2)"---and thus to destroy its ability to defend itself"
Israeli has the 5th largest nuclear weapon capability,how does criticism of its government prevent its ability to defend itself?

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 1:01 PM | Report abuse

pure sophistry rcaruth. Pure sophistry.

Methinks that Mr Clemons doth protest too much.

Here's some advice for Mr Clemons, please feel free to share it: If the shoe fits, Mr Clemons, wear it.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 1:10 PM | Report abuse

To the Skipper:

"Sophism has two different but related meanings: In the modern definition (from Plato), a sophism is a specious argument used for deceiving someone. In Ancient Greece, the sophists were a category of teachers who specialized in using the tools of philosophy and rhetoric for the purpose of teaching aretê — excellence, or virtue — predominately to young statesmen and nobility. The practice of charging money for education, and providing wisdom only to those who can pay, led to the condemnations made by Plato's Socrates who also regarded their profession itself as being 'specious' or 'deceptive', hence the modern usage of the term."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry

Despite your accusation,I would still enjoy to read an example of "legitimate" criticism of the current Government/Management of Israel. Is this difficult to present?

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 1:21 PM | Report abuse

Another round of Bash, Counterbash.

From a professional standpoint, Ms. Rubin should actually be quite happy about the letter. It puts President Obama on the defensive. He'll look bad to someone no matter how the US votes. And that gives Ms. Rubin plenty of fodder for the blog.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Incidentally, I saw a few signatories from the Reagan and GHW Bush administrations on the document. I guess "Israel bashing" is a bipartisan sport, as is its counterpart.

Posted by: MsJS | January 24, 2011 1:26 PM | Report abuse

Of course Israel bashing is a "bipartisan" sport. "Mainstream", "Conventional Wisdom" is found on both sides of the isle. That doesn't change the fact that support for Israel is considerably firmer and more widespread among conservative/Republican voters than it is among lefty/Democratic voters. Right thinking, realistic people inclined to support limited, constitutional government and a practical, correctly principled foreign policy are of course much more likely to be committed supporters of Israel.

Posted by: cavalier4 | January 24, 2011 1:40 PM | Report abuse

The most important question regarding this document hammering Israel and only Israel, is this: Is this letter supposed to contribute to or promote a dialogue or any understanding between the Palestinian and Israeli peoples or even between their respective peace negotiators.
Another widely publicized one sided, tendentious, and largely slanderous anti Israel screed, signed by the usual and expected anti Semites and Israel bashers will only exacerbate the already bitter and long standing conflict.
This would seem to be the real goal of the creators of this "blood libel" against Israel. However in regards to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, the blood that has been and will be spilled will be literal and real, unlike the figurative blood this expression so often refers to.
Is this what Beinart and the other Jews who endorsed this document really want, more Palestinian and Jewish blood to be spilled?
rcaruth I must add, knows perfectly well that most criticism of Israeli government policies towards the Palestinians is unfair and deliberately misinformed. rcaruth probably also realizes that most Israeli Army actions in defence of Israeli citizens in the face of continuing Palestinian terror attacks are entirely fair, legal, and above board and are what any rational and moral nation would do.
But like the signers of the above mentioned letter, rcaruth prefers for his/her own personal and perhaps rather mean spirited reasons, to believe anything that besmirchs Israel and the Jewish People.

Posted by: Beniyyar | January 24, 2011 1:46 PM | Report abuse

"and a practical, correctly principled foreign policy are of course much more likely to be committed supporters of Israel."

I admired Golde Meir,and I don't admire Netanyahu,does that make me
anti-Israel/antisemitic?

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 1:47 PM | Report abuse

But like the signers of the above mentioned letter, rcaruth prefers for his/her own personal and perhaps rather mean spirited reasons, to believe anything that besmirchs Israel and the Jewish People.
Posted by: Beniyyar

What is it I believe? Do I appear to be so naive that I would believe anything that besmirchs Israel? Would I believe that Israelis eat Palestinian children? That is "anything".
The problem here is that to the "true believers" even the tiniest criticism of Israel's current Likud government becomes a "slippery slope" inevitably leading to the destruction of Israel.Some Fundamentalist Christians think the same way. Any doubt expressed about the "Divinity" of Christ leads to atheism,and the inevitable takover of the world by Satan.

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 1:57 PM | Report abuse

"I admired Golde Meir,and I don't admire Netanyahu,does that make me
anti-Israel/antisemitic?"

No, but claiming that the Jews control US Foreign Policy (Walt), ignoring the clear video evidence that the IHH attacked Israel on the Mavi and Israel did not gun down peaceful activists, gushing over a Hamas terrorist who is committed to destroying Israel and expelling 6 million Jews from Israel, and intentionally using the most hurtful comparison of Jews to Nazis would all be strong evidence that the claimant did not like Jews very much and are – AT THE VERY LEAST – Israel bashing, just as Jennifer Rubin claims.

Posted by: *JRapp | January 24, 2011 1:58 PM | Report abuse

No, but claiming that the Jews control US Foreign Policy (Walt), ignoring the clear video evidence that the IHH attacked Israel on the Mavi and Israel did not gun down peaceful activists, gushing over a Hamas terrorist who is committed to destroying Israel and expelling 6 million Jews from Israel, and intentionally using the most hurtful comparison of Jews to Nazis would all be strong evidence that the claimant did not like Jews very much and are – AT THE VERY LEAST – Israel bashing, just as Jennifer Rubin claims.
Posted by: *JRapp

So do the political opponents(in Israel)to the Likuds believe the above??? If not,what are their criticisms of the current government,or are the policies of the Likuds,the only legitimate policies for Israel. Should the Ls take over on an emergency basis because they know what's best for Israel?

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 2:09 PM | Report abuse

This one-sided letter, signed by many with business or political ties to Arab states, can be fairly described as "Israel bashing". It promotes the revanchist fantasy that the "illegal settlements", home to half a million Israelis, can be uprooted, like the much smaller Gaza settlements were. This will never happen and shouldn't happen. Nor will the more ambitious "Helen Thomas solution".

All peace talks to date have recognized that a two-state solution will require some swaps of land rather than a return to the exact 1948 armistice line. To bash Israel for construction within the existing footprint of Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem or in West Bank towns is unfair and counter-productive. Obama stupidly made this an issue in the latest round of negotiations, giving the Palestinians who were too weak politically to make concessions anyway, a convenient excuse to walk away.

So the enemies of Israel turn again to the UN. What's new?

Posted by: eoniii | January 24, 2011 2:13 PM | Report abuse

I only have one question; what is the legal justification for the settlements?

Posted by: erika180 | January 24, 2011 2:20 PM | Report abuse

I only have one question; what is the legal justification for the settlements?
Posted by: erika180

Maybe JR will contribute a lawyerly opinion,but my Dad always answered my questions about "justification" with"Possession is 9/10s of the law"

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 2:27 PM | Report abuse

@erika180 - Exactly. The amazing thing about American apologists for Israeli hawks* is that they never even feel compelled to offer a justification for anything.

* - I specify Israeli hawks because a huge percentage of the Israeli public is against the construction of new settlements.

Posted by: William_in_DC | January 24, 2011 2:29 PM | Report abuse

The challenge for the Israel bashers is that they eventually wind up as Arab/muslim supporters.

so Clemons interviews an arab with blood on his hands and asks cloying, stupid question. Why didn't he ask him when Gilad Shalit will be returned?


Things will only become more polarized in the coming weeks. War is a distinct possibility, IMHO. Should that occur, what side will Clemons be on? The side with a democratic government or the side that trains children to be suicide bombers?

It seems to me that folks like rcaruth cannot be Israel bashers without also being supporters of the iniquity spawned by the muslims. How many Samir Kuntars will it take to show the thoughtful people of America that the left supports mass murders. And why does the left support folks like Samir Kuntar? It seems to me that the answer is simple: they hate jews.

For the western world jews are the canary in the coal mine. tracking the way they are treated in Europe and by folks who admire the European mind set is an easy way to monitor the health of our culture.

currently jews in Europe, and in America for that matter, are facing significant harrasement. Nothing much is done.

Christians in the middle east now suffer the same fate as jews in the middle east. The arabs kill them for sport it seems. Nothing much is done about that either.

I grieve for the western culture. I think we're vulnerable, suffering from self inflicted wounds. These stem largely from a leftward mindset that values weakness.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 2:43 PM | Report abuse

I only have one question; what is the legal justification for the settlements?

I’m not a fan of West Bank Settlements, but I must object to this new characterization of Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem as “Settlements.” Jerusalem is the capital of the Jewish state and quite a bit of it will be a part of Israel in any workable Peace Deal. The notion of “Legality” presupposes a neutral and objective arbitrator, which does not remotely exist in the context of Israel. In any event, UN Resolution 242 recognizes the reality that any workable “Peace” deal would require negotiation and land swaps between both parties. Israel would need to give up some land, and the Palestinians some other land. To date, Israel has given up quite a bit (See, e.g., Gaza in 2005), while the Palestinians, have as of yet not agreed to give up anything.

However, the UN Resolutions don’t mean much, legally, or otherwise. The bottom line is that had Israel lost in 1967, the Arab states would have destroyed Israel and we wouldn’t be having abstract debates about the “Legal authority” for their victory, or their subsequent expulsion of Jews, those results would have been an irrevocable fait accomplice, like every other expulsion of Jews over the last 2,000 when the Jews did not have the means to defend themselves . Israel won in 1948, 1967 and 1973 though, UN Resolution 242 recognizes this “fact on the ground,” and the reality of Israel’s tenacious refusal to be destroyed provides the basis of the necessity for Arab negotiation for final borders and the swapping of some lands, including existent Jewish settlements within pre 67 borders.

If the Palestinians and the world really want a peaceful two state solution, it must recognize the necessary elements of a workable permanent peace deal, including the swapping of some settlements continuous with Israel, rather than attempting to fashion international law into yet another club with which to bash the Jewish state over the head with.

Posted by: *JRapp | January 24, 2011 2:48 PM | Report abuse


It seems to me that folks like rcaruth cannot be Israel bashers without also being supporters of the iniquity spawned by the muslims. How many Samir Kuntars will it take to show the thoughtful people of America that the left supports mass murders. And why does the left support folks like Samir Kuntar? It seems to me that the answer is simple: they hate jews.

So here is the logic,because I am a critic of the Likud Government,and the policy of "Ambiguity" Therfore,I support:
(1)"The Iniquity----"
(2)Mass Murderers
(3)Samir Kuntar(whoever that is)
and,therfore,I hate Jews,and if I am a Jew,I hate myself.
What I would like to know: Are the Israeli Jews, who oppose Likudism,guilty of the above? Same question for the American Jews who oppose BN,and support BHO,are they Jew Haters also?

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 3:12 PM | Report abuse

If you are a liberal, and you act like a liberal then it is fair to say that you likewise hate Israel.

If you hate Israel then the default position is the support of her enemies. And her enemies happen to be bloodthirsty arab/mulsims who kill innocent civilians without a second thought.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 3:15 PM | Report abuse

If you are a liberal, and you act like a liberal then it is FAIR* to say that you likewise hate Israel.
If you hate Israel then the default position is the support of her enemies. And her enemies happen to be bloodthirsty arab/mulsims who kill innocent civilians without a second thought.
Posted by: skipsailing28

I'm going to help you with this:
(1)In my opinion all liberals* hate Israel.
(2)Therfore,all liberals support her enemies
(3)Her enemies are Islamic

This syllogism doesn't define what liberalism is,or what specific aspect of Liberalism creates Hatred of Israel.
Is this syllogism any truer than:
(1)If you are Neo-Conservative,you hate palestinians
(2)Therfore,all NCs support the enemies of Palestinians
(3)Their enemies are Israelis.
Neither syllogism would pass ninth grade logic.

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 3:30 PM | Report abuse

skip, disagreeing with someone and hating them are two different things.

Likewise, it is possible to disagree with the general approach an organization or country uses to solve problems without hating them. And one can do so without implicitly or explicitly supporting the other side.

See? I can disagree with you without hating you, wishing you ill, or automatically agreeing with someone who opposes you.

Posted by: MsJS | January 24, 2011 3:37 PM | Report abuse

skip:

I think you better tell Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Elena Kagan, and Stephen Breyer that they hate Israel, because I doubt they're aware of the fact.

Posted by: johnmarshall5446 | January 24, 2011 3:40 PM | Report abuse

I only have one question; what is the legal justification for the settlements?
Posted by: erika180
----------
There are certainly two sides to this argument. The argument that they are illegal is based on The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, which dealt with forced movements of ethnic populations after WWII. Since Israel hasn't forced Palestinians to move out of the settlements or Israelis to move in, this seems to be a specious application of the Convention.

From 1948 to 1967 Jordan ruled the West Bank and East Jerusalem and prohibited Jews from living there. They engaged in ethnic cleansing of traditionally Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem. After the 1967 war, Israel controlled this part of historical Israel, which under international law became disputed territory after Jordan ceded its claims.

In any event, the 1993 agreement allowing the PLO to return to the West Bank and Gaza recognized that the final status of these settlements would be determined at the negotiating table between the two parties.

Rather than negotiate a just settlement of both sides' claims, the Palestinians have repeatedly turned to terrorism and away from negotiations that at times have been fairly close to fruition. They have pressed their maximalist position of a Palestinian state exclusively for them and an Israeli secular state with a "right of return" that they would temporarily share with the Jews.

Posted by: eoniii | January 24, 2011 3:44 PM | Report abuse

Skip writes: "...who kill innocent civilians without a second thought." Killing innocent civilians without a second thought is a specialty of the USA. With drones and from Apache helicopters. But Israel, too, is famous for killing civilians--one of many examples is Operation Cast Lead, using DIME, a weapon banned by international law.

Posted by: missybeat | January 24, 2011 3:47 PM | Report abuse

rcaruth there are many critisims of is real that are legitimate but they are made out of logic and a sense of fairness, not out of desperation and hatred. All any supporter of Isreal can ask is that they are held to the same standard as everyone else. You seem like an intelligent person but if you cannot see that when over 80% of the U.N. resolutions are against Isreal is at the least unfair then you are either blinded by hatred or are not as smart as you think you are. to Missy you were not at operation cast lead nor were you at the alleged massacre at Jenin. I admit I know not of the dime weapon you speak of but if that is against so called convenient international law I ask you is a human bomb filled with nails and marbles intended to kill innocent men women and children not against international law? Drones are only planes without pilots and yes there is collateral damage in all wars. And you don't know if there is a second thought or not.

Posted by: eddiehaskall | January 24, 2011 4:13 PM | Report abuse

You tell them John. I'm simply characterizing what I've experienced of the past few years. I've watched in horror as the western leftists behaved in a manner that is supportive of the arab/muslim thugs. The left, both in America and in Europe apologize for the depravities of the muslims and more importantly fall continuously for thier hamfisted propaganda. Who can ever forget "green helmet guy"? Or the conviction with which the leftists accepted the lies about Israeli "attacks" on an ambulance.

We need to stop making excuses for the dysfunction in the arab/muslim world and take steps to limit its impact on our lives. Supporting Israel is one good step. So, frankly, in increasing domestic petroleum production.

but noooooo.

I stand by my contention: liberals hate, and I mean hate, jews and they act the part frequently.

I'll be entertained by how the left uses pretzel logic to defend Bashar Al Asad when he is ultimately accused of ordering the murder of Rafik Harriri. It is no accident that Hezbullah did its psychodrama during a state visit by Lebanon's current PM yet another Harriri to your boy Barry Sotero.

And why didn't this fool of a "correspondent" ask Meshal about the hostages the arabs took? hmmmm? It is sickening.

Stop making excuses for these murderers. Get your head on straight. Do you have anything in your house that proudly proclaims "Made In Syria" that isn't a deadly weapon? gosh, neither does anybody else. Meanwhile the liberals bash the only vibrant democratically based economy in the region.

If the liberals don't like being tarred thusly by this broad brush, they should have measured their words lo these few weeks ago instead of blaming the acts of madman on their political opponents. To cry for logic and civility now is laughable.

Welcome to hammer and tongs. Howard Dean hates me, apparently. That's the lay of the land now.

Lie in this bed. Own your own anti Israel sentiments. Recognize that it is a polarized situation and you are on the side of the mass murderers.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 4:18 PM | Report abuse

skip:

I would guess by voting patterns that far more American Jews consider themselves to be some kind of liberal than a conservative. That is why your statement may be considered overly broad shall we say?

Posted by: johnmarshall5446 | January 24, 2011 4:23 PM | Report abuse

Skip is making an overly broad statement and its obviously the case that liberals don’t hate Jews in general. I don’t believe Anti-Semitism is Left, or Right, there are certainly examples on both sides of the political spectrum. However, that shouldn’t make us turn a blind eye to the mainstreaming of Anti-Semitism that’s been occurring on the Left over the last decade and the increasingly blurred line between ancient Jew hating canards and critiques of Israel. It’s left me more than a little dismayed and very pessimistic about the near future of the Jewish people both in and out of Israel.

Posted by: *JRapp | January 24, 2011 4:30 PM | Report abuse

If you don't know about DIME, then sleuth until you do. And if you haven't seen the video of the troops aboard the Apache helicopter as they fired on civilians, including children, and injuring a journalist, do more investigating.
Basic training teaches soldiers to dehumanize--in order to kill. But they, themselves, become less than human. Collateral damage is a euphemism for murder. Our imperialist foreign policy and support for Zionism is the reason we are considered the world's greatest purveyor of terrorism.
My nephew came home from Iraq without a face in what used to be called a body bag, renamed transport tube, another splendid euphemism. I know families whose sons have deployed four, five times in a war that was lost before it began because no one wins in war.
Israel will never be safe until it agrees to live in peace with equal rights for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Posted by: missybeat | January 24, 2011 4:32 PM | Report abuse

You seem like an intelligent person but if you cannot see that when over 80% of the U.N. resolutions are against Isreal is at the least unfair then you are either blinded by hatred or are not as smart as you think you are.
eddiehaskall

When did I ever say that the UN was fair to Israel? I'm just saying that if the tone/logic of Skip Sail is representitive of Neo_Conservative logic,well,let's put in this way,it don't see Jennifer,or the NeoCons that comment here,arguing with SS.

Bashar Al Asad Rafik Harriri Harriri Barry Sotero Meshal
What do these have to do with American Liberals? PS, I don't classify myself as a Liberal,but an old school Conservative in the WFB model . I guess we're antisemites too.

Posted by: rcaruth | January 24, 2011 4:36 PM | Report abuse

you don't come across as an old school conservative rcaruth. You come across as a hard line leftie. I'll point out those things that support my observation as we go forward.

Listen little missy, you simply have to spare me the International ANSWER talking points and look at life as it is. The arabs are killers just now. Sorry honey, it just is what it is. they murder jews, christians and each other with reckless abandon. One of the biggest benefits of our war against Islamic madmen is that it gives us a long hard look at a dysfunctional culture.

Yeah I'm sure your socialist proclivities give you all sorts of reasons to dislike America. But tell me, are we airing propaganda videos designed to turn our children into mass murdering suicide bombers? Uh no, but the palestinians do that routinely.

Tell me, as much as you dislike my country, do we settle our political differences by throwing opposing party members from the roof of tall buildings? Uh no, but the palestinians do.

Why is it that the palestinians cannot survive without endless handouts while just a few short meters away the Israelis make a comfortable living on the same soil? Got anything in your house that says "Made in Syria"? Or "Made in Jordan"? Or "Made in (insert name of arab/muslim thugocracy here)"?

We face a well armed and completely dysfunctional culture. We either confront that and end the threat, or face random death at the hands of folks like Hassan Nidal or whatever other arab madman decides to open fire while shouting "allahu akbar".

No thanks babycakes.

Oh, and I'm sorry to hear of your nephew. Where did your sons serve?

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 4:54 PM | Report abuse

John, I would say that American liberals who happen to be jewish are liberals first and jews a far distant second. That's just the way I see it.

Look at how the Democrat establishment took after Joe Lieberman. Why? because he supports Israel.

And no one will touch my question: why didn't that fool clemons ask Mashal when Gilad Shalit will be returned? Why didn't he ask about the two hostage that Hezbullah grabbed and later killed? Hmmmm?

It is simply disgusting. Disgusting. If you admire that guy then tell me, yet again, how my brush is too wide to cover you with the same stench as that which emanates from Clemons.

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 4:57 PM | Report abuse

Big Mr. Skip, I also don't have anything in my house made in Israel. And, by the way, my tax dollars are paying for Israel. Don't you think that's a handout? And for war. I don't like that one bit.
You want a pic of a dysfunctional culture? Look at the USA. Crumbling infrastructure and huge debt. Millions without health care. Unemployment. The Fed calls the US Mint and says, "Print, print, print. This money is cyber, of course, and it sure doesn't trickle down to the people.
I appreciate your condolences but your question about my sons smells like sarcasm. Plus, my sons don't perceive Muslims as the enemy.
Now, have a little respect and don't call me babycakes or I'll think you're a dirty ole man.

Posted by: missybeat | January 24, 2011 5:12 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 4:54 PM
“The arabs are killers just now. Sorry honey, it just is what it is. they murder jews, christians and each other with reckless abandon.”

And the US and Israel kill far more than the Arabs - 1 million in Iraq and 1,400 in Gaza in 22 days alone.

'One of the biggest benefits of our war against Islamic madmen is that it gives us a long hard look at a dysfunctional culture.”

Most cultured would appear dysfunctional while being bombed yes.

“But tell me, are we airing propaganda videos designed to turn our children into mass murdering suicide bombers? Uh no, but the palestinians do that routinely.”

And how is that morally superior to propaganda videos designed to turn children into mass murdered, or video games which aggrandise rape, murder, and killing policemen?

“Tell me, as much as you dislike my country, do we settle our political differences by throwing opposing party members from the roof of tall buildings?”

I'm sure you much prefer dropping white phosphorous and cluster bombs in children.

“Why is it that the palestinians cannot survive without endless handouts while just a few short meters away the Israelis make a comfortable living on the same soil?”

I'm not sure what planet you;re living on, but:

a) the Israelis receive about 10 times as much in handouts

b) the Israelis are living on the soil that used to belong to those Palestinians

c) As Wikileaks revealed, those Israelis (with the help of the US) have vowed to destroy Palestinians society and drive it';s economy to the brink of collapse.

“We face a well armed and completely dysfunctional culture.”

it may be dysfunctional (though it's also been a round thousands of years longer than ours) but it's laughable to suggest they are well armed.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 5:27 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 4:57 PM
“I would say that American liberals who happen to be jewish are liberals first and jews a far distant second. That's just the way I see it.”

Unless you are Jewish, the way you see it is kinda....irrelevant.

"Look at how the Democrat establishment took after Joe Lieberman. Why? because he supports Israel."

No, it's because he stabbed his own party in the back. Chuck Schumer is even more pro Israel, and no one's gone after him.

"And no one will touch my question: why didn't that fool clemons ask Mashal when Gilad Shalit will be returned? "

It's an easy one to touch, albeit a lame one. Answer: Maybe after Israel release the 1000 prisoners they have locked up, who by Israel;s own admission, have not been charged with any crimes.

Or maybe after Israel released the 2 Palestinian brothers the IDF kidnapped from Gaza City the day before Shalit was captured.

"Why didn't he ask about the two hostage that Hezbullah grabbed and later killed?"

Maybe because Israel has taken hostages and killed them with impunity?

So yes it is disgusting,, Disgusting that you are such a rabid propagandist and so blind to reality.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: eddiehaskall | January 24, 2011 4:13 PM
“All any supporter of Isreal can ask is that they are held to the same standard as everyone else. “

I couldn't agree more. I which case, you must be outraged over the sanction against Iran over it';s nuclear program, while Israel has not only been allowed to develop a nuclear, but continues to be rewarded for it's efforts.

“You seem like an intelligent person but if you cannot see that when over 80% of the U.N. resolutions are against Israel is at the least unfair then you are either blinded by hatred or are not as smart as you think you are.”

Do you believe that all those resolutions against Iraq were unfair? I mean, Israel got away with invading an occupying another piece of land, but it seems Iraq wasn't allowed to. Even stranger is that the US, who drove Saddam out of Kuwait, claims it is powerless to stop Israel from building settlements in the West Bank.

Doesn't that strike you as rather hypocritical?

“I ask you is a human bomb filled with nails and marbles intended to kill innocent men women and children not against international law?”

What exactly is a human bomb?

“Drones are only planes without pilots and yes there is collateral damage in all wars. And you don't know if there is a second thought or not.”

I see. So when it's Muslims being killed, you call it collateral damage, but when it's Israelis being killed, it suddenly becomes “ innocent men women and children”.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: *JRapp | January 24, 2011 1:58 PM
“ignoring the clear video evidence that the IHH attacked Israel on the Mavi and Israel did not gun down peaceful activists”

You are of course, referring tot eh 30 secondfo video that Israel chose to release, having confiscated and destroyed all video evidence belong to the passengers of the Mavi Marmara?
“gushing over a Hamas terrorist who is committed to destroying Israel and expelling 6 million Jews from Israel”

Actually Hamas has endorsed a 2 state solution, you know, the one that Israel claims it supports?

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 5:45 PM | Report abuse

in response to this:
==============
Big Mr. Skip, I also don't have anything in my house made in Israel. And, by the way, my tax dollars are paying for Israel. Don't you think that's a handout? And for war. I don't like that one bit.
You want a pic of a dysfunctional culture? Look at the USA. Crumbling infrastructure and huge debt. Millions without health care. Unemployment. The Fed calls the US Mint and says, "Print, print, print. This money is cyber, of course, and it sure doesn't trickle down to the people.
I appreciate your condolences but your question about my sons smells like sarcasm. Plus, my sons don't perceive Muslims as the enemy.
Now, have a little respect and don't call me babycakes or I'll think you're a dirty ole man
=======================

thanks for volume two of the International ANSWER talking points. I forgot about the B list liberal "issues".

Should America support Israel? yes or no? If we pull the plug on foreign aid would that include Egypt and the others as well? If so, I'm all for it.

Yeah, I don't like war either. It is shame that the arab/muslims want one so badly, don't you think? Meantime, you proved my point. No, you don't have anything made in an arab/muslim dominated country and neither does anyone else. meanwhile Israel has a vibrant economy, even without purchases from you!!

yes, there is much about America that needs attention. And it is getting it finally thanks to the 2010 elections. but even as we are, I don't recall any private citizens doing anything close to 9/11 to the arabs. Do you? when was the last time a christian shouted "Praise Jesus" while mowing down arabs in the souk? Oh yeah, wait a minute, that was muslims doing that. Like last week when muslims killed muslims waiting at the police recruiting station. Islam seems to breed killers. How lovely for them.

Yeah, I think that the Democrats/liberals and Obama have massively mismanaged the macro economics of America. Our government needs to be put right. The electorate realizes this too, hence the 2010 election results.

Oh honey, it absolutely is sarcasm. Good for you for recognizing it. And yeah, your sons can sit this one out. We've still got plenty of people smarter and braver than them. We'll be OK. Tell me, what kind of enemy WOULD your sons be ok fighting against? Just curious.

There is little reason to respect you. After your lack of respect for my country don't expect much from those that love it. You don't deserve respect.

but I'll stop calling you baby cakes. Will sweetie be better little missy?

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 5:47 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: eoniii | January 24, 2011 12:41 PM
“The goal of the enemies of Israel is to undermine its legitimacy and thus to destroy its ability to defend itself.”

Israel's enemies don't need to do any of that. Israel is managing to achieve that all by itself.

“Unfortunately, the mainstream media are among the worst Israel bashers.”

Unfortunately, the mainstream media are among the worst Israel apologists. After all, how many reporters do you know have lost their jobs for supporting Israel?

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 5:51 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: eoniii | January 24, 2011 12:41 PM
“The goal of the enemies of Israel is to undermine its legitimacy and thus to destroy its ability to defend itself.”

Israel's enemies don't need to do any of that. Israel is managing to achieve that all by itself.

“Unfortunately, the mainstream media are among the worst Israel bashers.”

On the contrary. The mainstream media are among the worst Israel apologists. CNN has had to produce a US version of the news for local consumption while reporting the real news to the rest of the world.

After all, how many reporters do you know have lost their jobs for supporting Israel?

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 5:55 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 24, 2011 5:47 PM
“Should America support Israel? yes or no? If we pull the plug on foreign aid would that include Egypt and the others as well? If so, I'm all for it.”

Absolutely. After all, the money we give to Egypt is largely a bribe to play nice with Israel anyway.

“It is shame that the arab/muslims want one so badly, don't you think?”

I hate war too, but Israel and the US are states that have become completely based around their military apparatus, and militaristic states need wars to function.

“No, you don't have anything made in an arab/muslim dominated country and neither does anyone else. meanwhile Israel has a vibrant economy, even without purchases from you!!”

Nazi Germany also had a vibrant economy I believe. That didn't stop it from becoming a very sick society.

“I don't recall any private citizens doing anything close to 9/11 to the arabs.”

No, but our military, which is made up of many private citizens have far exceeded the death tool of 911.

“when was the last time a christian shouted "Praise Jesus" while mowing down arabs in the souk?”

Is the fact that John MacCain's pastor believes that the US was created to destroy Islam not sufficient?

“Islam seems to breed killers. How lovely for them.”

Israel and the US breed far better killers, though I don't consider it particularly lovely. The US killed more in Vietnam and Cambodia alone than the combined death toll from Muslims in the last century.

“The electorate realizes this too, hence the 2010 election results.”

Sadly, the Republicans are already back peddling on promises to cut spending.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 6:05 PM | Report abuse

In her opinion piece above, Ms. Rubin claims the secret "Palestine papers" "demonstrate once again that Israeli building is not the stumbling block to a peace deal" because "Palestinians in the past seemed prepared to give up claims to areas in which Israel has been building, including most of East Jerusalem." However, she fails to mention that in the Guardian's article entitled "Secret papers reveal slow death of Middle East peace process," it is revealed that the extreme concessions on the part of the Palestinians were rejected by Israel because the concessions "did not include a big settlement near the city Ma'ale Adumim as well as Har Homa and several others deeper in the West Bank, including Ariel." Livni rejected the concessions with a haughty attitude, saying they did not meet Israel's "demands," though she "appreciated" them. Given that the concessions made in desperation by Palestinian negotiators were dismissed by Israel because they did not capitulate to Israel's "demands" on the settlements thoroughly enough, it is illogical to use the fact that those concessions were offered to argue that Israel's stalwart attitude about maintaining settlements is not a major stumbling block to peace.

Further impugning Ms. Rubin's argument is another revelation in a Guardian article entitled "Palestinian leaders weak – and increasingly desperate." In this article, Livni says it had been "the policy of the government for a really long time" "to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that is impossible, we already have the land and we cannot create the state." In 2007, Livni claimed this was no longer the position of the government, but admitted that "it is still the policy of some of the parties." Given that Israel has been using the settlements to prejudice future negotiations and eventually annex the land on which those settlements stand, it is very difficult to argue the settlements are "not the stumbling block."

The settlements are illegal under Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which reads, "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Posted by: getjiggly2 | January 24, 2011 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Beniyyar | January 24, 2011 1:46 PM |
“The most important question regarding this document hammering Israel and only Israel, is this: Is this letter supposed to contribute to or promote a dialogue or any understanding between the Palestinian and Israeli peoples or even between their respective peace negotiators.”

Beniyyar is rolling out the standard response every time Israel is caught committing a crime. Drawing attention to it is “not helpful”.

The Palestinian and Israeli peoples have been in dialogue for over 40 years and it has produced nothing. In fact, the Palestine Papers released this week reveal that the peace process is dead and that Israel's idea is negotiation is to reject everything.

“However in regards to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, the blood that has been and will be spilled will be literal and real, unlike the figurative blood this expression so often refers to.”

Rest assured Beniyyar, the blood spilled will be largely Palestinian, so no need to worry.

“Is this what Beinart and the other Jews who endorsed this document really want, more Palestinian and Jewish blood to be spilled?”

Are you suggesting Beniyyar, that condemning Israel for crimes and violating the Geneva Conventions will lead to blood being spilled? Is that not a blood libel against Israel?

“I must add, knows perfectly well that most criticism of Israeli government policies towards the Palestinians is unfair and deliberately misinformed.”

On the contrary. Israel government policies towards the Palestinians rarely gets passed censorship, and that very few of Israel's crimes are ever scrutinised. In fact, thank to the automatic US veto at the UN, very little criticism of Israel sees the light of day. The only criticism that does surface is in response to cries that cannot be spun or denied.

“rcaruth probably also realizes that most Israeli Army actions in defence of Israeli citizens in the face of continuing Palestinian terror attacks are entirely fair, legal, and above board and are what any rational and moral nation would do.”

On the contrary.

Call it what you will, but murdering Palestinians in occupied territories is never an act of self defense. In fact, under international law, the Palestinians are perfectly entitled to resist occupation.


If Israel is concerned with protecting it's citizens, it should demonstrate this commitment by moving Israeli citizens out of harms way. Bui8lding settlements in occupied territory is practically using Israeli citizens as human shields.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 6:18 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: getjiggly2 | January 24, 2011 6:10 PM
“In this article, Livni says it had been "the policy of the government for a really long time" "to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that is impossible, we already have the land and we cannot create the state." In 2007, Livni claimed this was no longer the position of the government, but admitted that "it is still the policy of some of the parties."

Very good point. This dispels any illusion that the problem with Israel is the Nentyahu government. The reality is that Israel's foreign policy has remain unchanged since 1967.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 6:22 PM | Report abuse

Here's what I respect, Skip: Your right to express your opinion. Even thought it's bellicose.

Now these would be fighting words if I weren't peaceful: "And yeah, your sons can sit this one out. We've still got plenty of people smarter and braver than them. We'll be OK. Tell me, what kind of enemy WOULD your sons be ok fighting against? Just curious."

Actually, we have a brainwashed group of young men and women, nationalized by war rhetoric. Remember that it was Henry Kissinger who said, "Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy."

Your question about my sons and for what they'd fight? I can't answer that. I've never asked them. When 9/11 happened, some of us looked at each other and said, "We need to examine why we're hated? I'm mean did it have anything to do with the 500,000 Iraqi children who died because of our sanctions? And then there was the neocon plan, PNAC, that Cheney carried around in his briefcase--for US hegemony. He said we'd need a Pearl Harbor-like event to rally support for it. And he got it, with 9/11. Do I believe our government was complicit in this? I sure don't think the farce of a 9/11 Commission really did a thorough investigation. I know plenty of 9/11 family members who'd agree with me. Many of them believe that Cheney and Bush knew it was going to occur and did nothing. And if you're familiar with Operation Northwoods, you might understand why it wouldn't be a surprise.

Further, there's this from you: "There is little reason to respect you. After your lack of respect for my country don't expect much from those that love it. You don't deserve respect."

Still further, Israel has a vibrant economy because we send them MONEY--about three billion a year. But we get some of it back when they purchase weapons from us that they use on civilians. I told you about DIME. But there's also white phosphorous.

"Your country"???? Are the multiple question marks a clue about my opinion of your second to last paragraph?

Lastly, great posts, Shingo.

Posted by: missybeat | January 24, 2011 6:22 PM | Report abuse

Skip, you certainly have set our little Rubin community on fire today! Not a bad thing, it gets boring around here.

Posted by: johnmarshall5446 | January 24, 2011 6:27 PM | Report abuse

Thank you Jennifer for standing your ground and calling a spade a spade. As we all know the anti Israel crowd likies to say they are pro Israel but feel obligated to point out its mistakes and misguided policies. That is the rational that allows them to distort the truth, twist the facts, present incomplete or biased opinions and then judge Israel differently than the palestinians.

Just this weekend the PA was accused of routinely torturing prisoners; did anyone see mention of the report in a mainstream media journal like the Times. No you did not and you do not read about the rockets fired at schoolyards either. Instead you read about the Israeli response. Even in the case of the flotilla incident when there is clear cut film of what happened the anti Israel crowd claims its doctored, manipulated or taken at the wrong angle.

Two weeks ago in a NY Times article on the purported death of a palestinian woman from Israeli tear gas a link to the al Dura video showing a 10 year old boy caught with his father in a shootout between the IDF and Hamas was included. The film has been reputdiated and a French court ruled it a fake, but the Times links to it and says its for reference but we all know its to inflame the anti Israel crowd and push public sentiment aways from Israel. How come there was not link to the 50 killed by a Palesitnans bus bomb or the passover sedar bombings. Its because players like the Times are trying to alienate the public from Israel because they know the the vast majority of americans are pro Israel and anti Palestinian even when Israel is wrong and they acknowledge it. It drives the liberals crazy and makes them intensify their actions so we get more and more outrageous claims by anti semites like Freeman, Walt and Beinart who is the worst of them all. Even Jackson Dielh of the Post wrote an article two weeks ago on the absurd claims of spying vultures and sharks trained by the mossad to eat Egyptians but concluded that it just might be true because we all know how craft those Israelis are. Pathetic, right?

Those of us who support israel are used to the incitement and lies spread by the palestinians and the arab press. What is so disappoiting is to see so many news agencies like the Times, the Wash Post, the LA Times spread the lies and propaganda that are provided to them by the likes of the signatures of the letter.

If anyone wonders why Israelis don't care about what the UN or liberal americans say about its policies, the letter is a good example of the garbage that they circulate while claiming to be pro Israel. Peter Beinart your mother is probably ashamed of you, most other Jews are as well.

Posted by: RealityCheck28 | January 24, 2011 6:32 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: missybeat | January 24, 2011 6:22 PM
“Still further, Israel has a vibrant economy because we send them MONEY--about three billion a year. But we get some of it back when they purchase weapons from us that they use on civilians. I told you about DIME. But there's also white phosphorous. “

Actually, that's only the tip of the iceberg Missy.

1.Israel gets all the aid in one lump payment at the beginning of the year, which means Israel gets to accrue interests on that 3 billion.
2.In addition to the 3 billion, there is supplemental military aid not included in that figure.
3.On top of all this, the US gives Israel loan guarantees, which are effectively loans that Israel doesn't have to repay, but it keeps the aid off the books. These loans are actually larger than the annual military aid budget.
4.Israel is granted ridiculously preferential trade arrangements with the US, where American companies are given incentives from Washington to invest in Israel and Israeli goods are given advantageous import arrangements to the US.

Great posts yourself, Missy.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 6:37 PM | Report abuse

Bashing the bashers

I fear that Ms Rubin's opinions presented as facts are as bad as the bashers's opinions presented as facts. It is such people who disenfranchise Israel as well as the Palestinians...they throw so much mud on facts that we get tired of this middle east cauldron of witches, the US has far more serious problems to attend to.

Posted by: Beaumanoir | January 24, 2011 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: RealityCheck28 | January 24, 2011 6:32 PM
“Just this weekend the PA was accused of routinely torturing prisoners; did anyone see mention of the report in a mainstream media journal like the Times.”

That would hardly be a ground breaking report, especially given that torture is routinely practiced by Israel ans the US.

“No you did not and you do not read about the rockets fired at schoolyards either. Instead you read about the Israeli response.”

By their very nature, home made rockets without guidance systems can not fired at schoolyards. Of course, Israel could agree to a ceasefire truce with Hamas, but it rejects it.

“Even in the case of the flotilla incident when there is clear cut film of what happened the anti Israel crowd claims its doctored, manipulated or taken at the wrong angle.”

Cut being the operative word. Israel released about 30 seconds of highly edited footage, while confiscating all video footage belonging to the passengers.
Now if Israel had nothing to hide, why would they have taken all this footage and not returned it? You see RC, the trouble with Israeli propagandists, is that they take the public for fools.

" The film has been reputdiated and a French court ruled it a fake, but the Times links to it and says its for reference but we all know its to inflame the anti Israel crowd and push public sentiment aways from Israel.”

False. The Israeli government insisted it was staged, but no court made any such ruling. It is however, amusing to hear an Israeli apologist holding up a piece of selectively edited footage released by Israel as proof of something while complaining about footage that incriminates Israel.

“Its because players like the Times are trying to alienate the public from Israel...”

it's not that the Times are trying to alienate the public from Israel, it's just that they have stopped censoring themselves. American Jews are turning away from Israel because of Israel's alarming embrace of extremist policies and ideology. Israeli society is being featured as we speak. Last week, over 20,000 demonstrators marched against Israeli policies and racism, and criticized these policies for damaging Israel's standing in the world.

Israel is alienating itself. It doesn't need the Times to do it.

The people who are being driven crazy are Israeli hard liners who can't come to terms with the fact that they are no longer able to control the narrative and shut down the conversation. Dead enders like Jennifer will scream with indignation at any criticism of Israel. They claim that some criticism is acceptable, but insist that this criticism is not.

Until the last few years, the media has been behaving like a stenographer for the pro Israeli narrative, but Israel's aggression against civilians in Lebanon 2006 and Gaza 2008 has tuned the world against Israel.

Israel has no one to blame but itself.

If Israelis didn't care about what the UN or liberal Americans had to say

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 7:02 PM | Report abuse

Bravo, Shingo.

Posted by: missybeat | January 24, 2011 7:13 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, to complete the last paragraph:

If Israelis didn't care about what the UN or liberal Americans had to say, they wouldn't be pushing a massive PR "charm offensive", paying bloggers to troll the net countering criticism of Israel and training them to edit Wikipedia entries.

If Israelis didn't care about what the UN had to say, then Netenyahu would not be threatening the PA against declaring statehood at the UN.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 7:36 PM | Report abuse

It's laughable that Ms. Rubin says that Israel's critics seek to "single out Israel, hold it to a different standard than all other countries". Quite the contrary.

Israel is the country that calls itself "the only democracy in the Middle East" and yet defines itself as belonging to a religion instead of to its citizens.

Israel is the only country the US has given blanket security council protection to over the past 30 years.

Israel is the only country in the world occupying territory containing 3 million people that it does not want to give citizenship to.

Countries belong to their citizens. The concept of a nation belonging to a race, religion, or ethnicity, is medieval and contrary to the principles of self-determination, human-rights(as opposed to group-based rights), and one-person-one-vote.

Settlements are a war crime according to UN Security Council Resolutions 446, 452, and 465. It is time for Israel to follow the same rules as other UN members or face the same economic and political consequences that other countries face when they thumb their nose at the law.

Posted by: glaston1 | January 24, 2011 8:46 PM | Report abuse

Shingo 1. nuclear weapons if a democratic Israel has themhasnt sworn to eliminate its neighbors or support terrorist groups. 2. resolutions against Iraq were part of the terms of surrender after Iraqs war of aggression against Kuwait. 3. Germanys economy in the1920s and early 30s was in shambles. 4. a human bomb is a moslem suicide bomber exactly . I hope you were joking. 5 In a war situation the targets are not civilians with Moslem suicide bombers they are. There is such a thing as moral equivalence which in the middle east there really isn't much.

Posted by: eddiehaskall | January 24, 2011 9:30 PM | Report abuse

The apologists for the Palestinians speak as if there is some universal court of justice or public opinion before which Israel stands accused and before which they convict Israel over and over again--kind of like a simulated Nuremberg Tribunal. They focus on gathering facts to present before such a tribunal, they have their interpretations of the relevant laws ready, and when they get the chance, as with Goldstone, they actually go through with the production. But all this is reactive--the initiative lies with Israel, as at least some Israelis recognize. Who will attack Israel on behalf of the Palestinians--who, that is, who doesn't realize they would bring upon themselves far greater destruction? What will Europe do? What will all these boycotts on Humus amount to? Just keep attacking Hamas and Hizbollah, and making sure the public sees that (the real) face of Palestinian resistance, and keep putting facts on the ground. Turn any moves they make against the Palestinians--if they want to declare a state, declare in turn that any attack from, or originating from Palestinian territory will be treated as an act of war, and unilaterally declare borders including the settlements. At some point it may be possible to turn individual Palestinians in large numbers against the terror groups. A good start would be to offer Israeli citizenship to any Palestinian (along with his/her family) who offers information that helps with the capture or assassination of members of the terror leadership, or with the rescue of Gilad Shalit, etc. Such programs would draw out the Palestinians who prefer a normal life in freedom to "resistance." Of course Israelis would have to become smarter and more hard-headed to conduct their affairs with such determined self-interest--they'd have to become closer, in at least some respects, to how their enemies portray them. Those of us who recognize that the idea of negotiations is dead and want Israel to emerge from the current situation stronger, should keep raising such ideas--let's not become reactive ourselve, responding like defense attorneys to each factoid. If Israel remains focused on its own national interests (which will in turn make it capable of advancing the interests of others), and American public opinion remains overwhelmingly pro-Israel, nothing else matters.

Posted by: adam62 | January 24, 2011 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Whooh boy! Operation Shylock redux. So can we all agree that Philip Roth is a funny guy with a kinda dirty mind who writes polished sentences?

Posted by: aardunza | January 24, 2011 10:03 PM | Report abuse

Well Skip

You may not be gentle and maybe a bit rough,but you're real good at getting the "hate mongers" like Missybeat and Shingo1 to crawl out from under their rocks and shrilly repeat their "Big Lies"
as Fact.How touching that they found each other. EHarmony couldn't have done a better job. By the way let's not mislabel them as Liberals. It gives those of us who proudly wear that label and support Israel a bad name. You see, those like Shingo1, Missybeat and their "Ilk" who attempt to "Intellectually Cloak" their Anti Semitism by Repeating the same old Tired Lies about Israel which have been repeatedly disproved are a "dime a dozen". They have no resemblance to lhe liberals I know who don't wear this thinly disguised bile and hate on their shoulder like these "Masqueraders" do.

Posted by: getreal22 | January 24, 2011 10:08 PM | Report abuse

You go girl.

Posted by: ZoltanNewberry | January 24, 2011 10:10 PM | Report abuse

Jennifer,

I just re read your piece, and what struck me was the lack of substance you presented in your argument, especially coming from someone with a legal background.

The first thing that stands out is that you don't have a problem with bashing nation states, provided that Israel is the one being bashed. After all, I suspect you have no problem with Iran bring singled out at the UN for enriching uranium, (even though the NPT to which is is a signatory, gives Iran the right to do so (, while Israel Pakistan and India are not even mentioned by the US or the UNSC.

But let's move on to your main argument – that Israel is being singled out by a resolution condemning the settlements in occupied territories. For this claim to have any substance, there would have to be evidence of another state building settlements on foreign soil that it is militarily occupying.

The last time I checked, there wasn't. So you see Jennifer, there is no evidence of Israel being singled out, and hence no evidence of Israel being bashed.

There is also your false claim that revelations from past negotiations somehow negate the argument that the settlements are a stumbling block to a peace deal. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reactions of outrage from the Arab community and the aggression demonstrated by Fatah thugs at the al Jazeera offices in the West Bank (for reporting the expose) demonstrate that the proposal was hugely unpopular and unsupported by the Palestinian population.

I realise that you are limited for space when writing your blog posts, but your additional examples of Israel bashing cannot be taken seriously. You present a number of accusations against Israel and seem to believe that the very existence of the accusation demonstrates that Israel is being bashed.

Yo;re going to have to do a lot better than that Jennifer. If you want to present your argument, then you need to produce the evidence.

Surely they taught you that at law school?

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 10:11 PM | Report abuse

eoniii | January 24, 2011 3:44 PM: very good answer about the "settlements".
The only thing "east" about "East Jerusalem" is that it is the part of Jerusalem recaptured by the Israelis in 1967.

anyway, rather than endure any more of the tripe spewed by the Hamas-loving Left, I just want to add to adam62's last comment that Israel has offered citizenship to the Druse who live on the Golan Heights. As much as they would like to accept, they are afraid of being murdered if Syria ever rouses itself to re-start a hot war.
Also, any muslim with legal residency in "East" Jerusalem is eligible for Israeli citizenship, and more and more are applying every day.
Both the Golan Heights and all of Jerusalem were officially annexed by israel - and residents are eligible for Israeli citizenship.

skipsailing: the problem with the Left (maybe not all liberals) is they believe in the revisionist history of post-colonialism. They seem to not understand that Israelis are of every skin color and nationality and religion, and that it is the Palestinian Muslims who are today's Intolerant Imperialists.

Maale Adummin, Har Homa, and Ariel occupy the high ground, and Israel will not give up that topography to people inclined to elect the murderous gangsters of Hamas.

I use Israel-basher all the time due to the disproportionate focus by the global media, international organizations, and NGOs as part of the palestinian policy of delegitimization the Jewish State.

Stand firm Ms. Rubin. The Israel-bashers are small in number, but their voices are amplified by the bias of The Guardian and the New York Times in the English language media.

Posted by: K2K2 | January 24, 2011 10:17 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: eddiehaskall | January 24, 2011 9:30 PM
“nuclear weapons if a democratic Israel has them hasnt sworn to eliminate its neighbors or support terrorist groups.”

I fail to see how democracy has anything to do with it. China has them.

Furthermore, Israel and the US have both threatened Iran repeatedly,. Israel threatened Lebanon on a weekly basis.

The US openly supports terror networks like the MEK , Judula and the PKK, so get busy and write that letter to congress demanding the the US be disarmed.

BTW. Iran has hasn't sworn to eliminate anyone.
“resolutions against Iraq were part of the terms of surrender after Iraqs war of aggression against Kuwait.”

But according to Jennifer, the war of aggression against Kuwait should have been ignored, seeing as other states have done it and gotten way with it. Isn't this a case of Iraq being singled out and bashed?

“Germanys economy in the1920s and early 30s was in shambles.”

So as Israel's economy until the 60's.

“a human bomb is a moslem suicide bomber exactly .”

What about Tamul Tiger suicide bombers? They're not Muslim. Does that make them another category of bomb?

“In a war situation the targets are not civilians with Moslem suicide bombers they are.”

Ze'ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha'aretz)m, wodl disagree with you. This is what he said:
“The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.”

“There is such a thing as moral equivalence which in the middle east there really isn't much.”
1.
Try rephrasing that is proper English and get back to me.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 10:20 PM | Report abuse

"evidence of another state building settlements on foreign soil that it is militarily occupying." like Turkey in North Cyprus or China in Tibet?

What is illegal about Ramat Shlomo, the neighborhood in NORTH Jerusalem that made Obama go postal in March 2010? Before Israel, after annexing the land, built apartments in ramat Shlomo, it was a rocky hillside previously used for grazing goats.

Most of the land outside of Jerusalem was unclaimed land from the former Ottoman Empire. Jordan never officially annexed any West Bank land during their illegal military occupation 1948-1967.


save your ravings for someone who cares Shingo0. if you accept the concept that any palestinian state must be Judenfrei, then you are just another Jew-hater.

Posted by: K2K2 | January 24, 2011 10:27 PM | Report abuse

It's also worth keeping in mind how much the pro-Palestine factions dehumanize the Palestinians by presenting them as pure victims, so continually and completely tormented that they have no choice but lash out in whatever way they can, however vicious or self-defeating.

"Ze'ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha'aretz)m, wodl disagree with you. This is what he said:
“The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.”"

I don't know the context here, or what Schiff's politics were when he said this, but if he's actually say that the army has never distinguished between military and civilian targets, it's obviously false, and Hamas and Hezbollah, at least know it--otherwise, why would they hide themselves amongst civilians, rather than staying far away, since the Israelis clearly aren't interested in them at all?

Posted by: adam62 | January 24, 2011 10:39 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: adam62 | January 24, 2011 9:36 PM

“The apologists for the Palestinians speak as if there is some universal court of justice or public opinion before which Israel stands accused and before which they convict Israel over and over again--kind of like a simulated Nuremberg Tribunal.”
Yes, there are a few:
1.The world Court
2.The international Court of Justice
3.Treaties like the Geneva Conventions, to which Israel is a signatory.

They focus on gathering facts to present before such a tribunal, they have their interpretations of the relevant laws ready, and when they get the chance, as with Goldstone, they actually go through with the production.

Adam,

You are a perfect example of how Israeli apologists never seem to learn from their mistakes. Rather than rethink the failed strategies that have led to Israel becoming what Tzipi Lvni described as a “pariah” state, you people insist that the way out of your predicament in to keep digging.

You're still stuck with the belief that Israel is the slick and efficient machine it was in 1967, and consequently, think you can solve all problems through militarism, but more and more weapons hasn't make Israel any safer.

The Palestinians are indeed suffering terribly under the brutal and murderous occupation, but they are not going anywhere. They already outnumber Israeli Jews in Palestine and once a single state emerges, Israel will be faced with being either a Jewish state or a democracy.

Attacking Hamas and Hizbollah isn't going to solve Israel's problem either. The attack on Hizbollah led to a humiliating defeat for Israel and the attack on Hamas revealed the real face of Israel.

The Palestinians are smart enough not to declare a state. They just need to wait it out, and watch Israel become increasable alienated, increasingly extreme, increasingly intolerant and eventually self destruct.

Trying to assassinate terrorist leaders won't solve anything. They'll be replaced the next day by a successor.

A famous Jew once described insanity as repeating the same strategy and hoping for a different outcome. What a shame he never accepted the offer to be Israel's Prime Minister, but then again, he'd already recognized that Israel was headed towards fascism back then, so who could blame him?

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 10:53 PM | Report abuse

Shingo1: "The first thing that stands out is that you don't have a problem with bashing nation states, provided that Israel is the one being bashed."

I think you meant "provided that Israel is *not* the one being bashed."

Of course you did and you're most welcome! (from your friendly neighborhood proofreader) ;-)

Posted by: aardunza | January 24, 2011 10:55 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: K2K2 | January 24, 2011 10:27 PM
“What is illegal about Ramat Shlomo, the neighborhood in NORTH Jerusalem that made Obama go postal in March 2010?”
Annexation in no longer recognized as a legal option, but in any case, annexation requires that the ruling state grants citizenship to the inhabitants. And no, you cannot simply expel them first.
“Most of the land outside of Jerusalem was unclaimed land from the former Ottoman Empire.”

That is until in 1948, when Israel expelled the Palestinians from Israel and they fled to these locations.

“if you accept the concept that any palestinian state must be Judenfrei, then you are just another Jew-hater.”

I don't. Nor do I accept the concept of a state or settlements exclusively for Jews.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 10:58 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: adam62 | January 24, 2011 10:39 PM

“It's also worth keeping in mind how much the pro-Palestine factions dehumanize the Palestinians by presenting them as pure victims, so continually and completely tormented that they have no choice but lash out in whatever way they can, however vicious or self-defeating.”

The only thing making it self defeating is that they are not sufficiently armed, unlike Israel who have used the Holocaust to justify lashing out in whatever way they can, but have enjoyed the benefit of state of the art weaponry.

“but if he's actually say that the army has never distinguished between military and civilian targets, it's obviously false”

Far from it. Israel killed more women and children in Lebanon and Gaza than they did enemy combatants. In fact, Israeli propagandist, Tom Friedman argued in the NYT that Israel achieved success in Lebanon by inflicting sufficient pain on the civilian population so that Hezbollah will be reticent to engage Israel future conflicts.

“Hamas and Hezbollah, at least know it--otherwise, why would they hide themselves amongst civilians, rather than staying far away, since the Israelis clearly aren't interested in them at all?”

First of all, Israeli claims that Hezbollah hid amongst civilians was debunked.

Secondly, Israel itself has developed a taste for human shields. So much so that Shin Bet appealed an Israeli Supreme Court ruling banning the use of human shields by the IDF.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 11:07 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the correction aardunza.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 11:10 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: getreal22 | January 24, 2011 10:08 PM

“By the way let's not mislabel them as Liberals. It gives those of us who proudly wear that label and support Israel a bad name.”

You have to love how PEP's like getreal22 are so proud to acknowledge their willingness to check their Liberal ideology at the door when the subject of Israel comes us.

“You see, those like Shingo1, Missybeat and their "Ilk" who attempt to "Intellectually Cloak" their Anti Semitism by Repeating the same old Tired Lies about Israel which have been repeatedly disproved are a "dime a dozen"”

Whereas those like getreal22 claim that arguments have been disprove, but never see fir to demonstrate how these arguments have been disproved.

Thanks for your substance free contribution getreal22. Don't forget to collect your Liberal hat on the way out the door.

Wink wink.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 24, 2011 11:21 PM | Report abuse

"First of all, Israeli claims that Hezbollah hid amongst civilians was debunked."

Sure it was (I notice you don't mention Hamas). I just quote this one claim to highlight the differing realities we occupy--pro-Palestinian people have their own media, their own debunkers, their own set of facts; and, I'm ready to admit the pro-Israeli people do too. There's no neutral ground here. To me, your "case" is obviously a frame-up--it's easy enough to see what questions you aren't asking, how you put your evidence in the worst light for your "defendant"--just like a good prosecutor, which was my original point. But I don't accept that Israel's on trial, so why bother with your case--if specific countries try to arrest Israeli citizens, well, that's a practical problem for them to deal with, but there is, in fact, no effective tribunal here. Of course, any case I would piece together is equally irrelevant to you--so what if the Palestinians have pioneered uniquely evil forms of terror, and have steeped their people deeply in Nazi-style anti-semitism--either claim it has been debunked, say it's irrelevant because they're oppressed, it's legitimate resistance, or the Israelis are worse. Which is just another way of saying there's no dialogue here, no more than between the parties themselves--it's not just the facts, but that we occupy entirely different moral worlds. And so your prophecies aren't credible to me either. All I try and do is break the spell of this imaginary tribunal on those sympathetic to Israel. Just keep building houses, just keep liberating the economy, even just keep paying lip service to negotiations and the two-state solution--get innovative: start offering citizenship to individual Palestinians who break in some decisive way from their terror leaders. Make yourself useful to as many serious minded people and countries throughout the world as you can. People will get sick of the Palestinians. And the Palestinians' spirit will break first, because they need to hope and the belief that resistance is effective, while the Israelis are ultimately just living. At this point, it depends upon the rest of the world--if the Palestinians are buoyed by a growing world wide Islamist movement, that's trouble for Israel and everyone else; but if that's defeated, defused or it simply fades, then the Palestinians will be alone. Some will leave, some will seek opportunities in Israel (and Israel will have the challenge of integrating them) and those still addicted to violence will be marginalized. I agree with you on one thing--the thing to worry about is whether the Israelis are up to it. But at least their fate is in their hands.

Posted by: adam62 | January 24, 2011 11:37 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: adam62 | January 24, 2011 11:37 PM
“Sure it was (I notice you don't mention Hamas).”

Sorry I forgot. No, there is no evidence (apart from IDF claims) of Hamas using human shields during Cast Lead, though there is plenty of the IDF doing so.

“pro-Palestinian people have their own media, their own debunkers, their own set of facts; and, I'm ready to admit the pro-Israeli people do too. There's no neutral ground here.”

Sure, I have no problem with that, except for the matter of either side owning facts

“To me, your "case" is obviously a frame-up--it's easy enough to see what questions you aren't asking, how you put your evidence in the worst light for your "defendant"--just like a good prosecutor, which was my original point.”

So by ll means, if you feel there are questions I'm not asking, fire away.

“But I don't accept that Israel's on trial, so why bother with your case--if specific countries try to arrest Israeli citizens, well, that's a practical problem for them to deal with, but there is, in fact, no effective tribunal here.”

Again the evidence proves you wrong. Why do you think certain Israeli leaders are avoiding travel to European States where they are wanted for war crimes?

“Of course, any case I would piece together is equally irrelevant to you”

There's a difference between what is relevant to the debate and what is important. Issues of terrorism and anti-semitism are certainly important, but given that Israel has elected the leaders of 2 terrorist groups to the office of PM, and is becoming increasingly racist (to the point of racism between Jewish groups), then your argument rings pretty hollow.

And contrary to your claims Adam, it was the Zionist groups that pioneered the terrorism that you refer to uniquely evil forms of terror. The problem with the terrorism argument is that Israel stands as a success story in terms of what terrorism can achieve. Terrorism was used to drive out the British, and then to expel the Palestinians.

I take my hat off to you for trying to come up with solutions (if that is indeed what you are suggesting) but contrary to your claims, they are anything but innovative. Your entire thesis is based on military superiority and the antiquated notion hat might makes right. Hillary Clinton, who I can barely stomach, did make one sound observation – the statu quo is unsustainable – and that is indeed the case with the occupation and Israel's apartheid policies.

For over half a century, people like you have been predicting that the world would get sick of the Palestinians forget about them, but the opposite is true.

You've been predicting that the Palestinians' spirit will break first, and it hasn't. They're not going anywhere. They've numbers are growing, creating what Israeli leaders consider to be the greatest threat of all – the demographic one – and Israel is going to either have to accept the inevitable or resort to unspeakable crimes that will bring and end to it.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 25, 2011 12:13 AM | Report abuse

I agree with your critics. This blog is terrible and should not be associated with the Washington Post...not because it espouses or focuses on conservative friendly issues and topics or on issues relating to Israel but because it falls so far short in meeting even baseline standards. There are some really smart, analytical and fairminded conservatives who don't cherrypick information, misleadingly leave out facts or bash their ideological opponents with the harshest and most inaccurate of rhetoric at the drop of the hat. Can't the post hire one of them? An example of the problem with this post is the distorted analysis conveyed in these statements: "This weekend we read the revelations from past negotiations, which demonstrate once again that Israeli building is not the stumbling block to a peace deal. To the contrary, the Palestinians in the past seemed prepared to give up claims to areas in which Israel has been building, including most of East Jerusalem." What you left out is that the revelations actually show the opposite -- that they could not come to an agreement on several large settlement blocks including Maale Adumim and Ariel. It is also the case that the very significant territorial concessions that the Palestinian negotiators appear to have been willing to make will be a bitter pill for their population to swallow and could lead to rejection of the terms. No one who is honest doubts that Israel's creation of "facts on the ground" over these last decades of settlement building have made reaching an agreement and the chances of that agreement being successful far more difficult.

Posted by: wswest | January 25, 2011 3:34 AM | Report abuse

I see that the anti-Semite card has been played to characterize people of my "ilk". Is that supposed to end the debate with a "gotch ya"? I have many friends within the peace community who are Jewish. They, like I, are anti-Zionist because Zionism is racist.
When I saw the movie, The Boy in the Striped Pajamas, I couldn't help but compare the suffering of the Jewish people to the suffering of the Palestinians at the hands of descendants of those who were so persecuted by the Nazis. The once oppressed have become the oppressor. Their superiority complex is astonishing.

Posted by: missybeat | January 25, 2011 9:04 AM | Report abuse

"Israel is going to either have to accept the inevitable or resort to unspeakable crimes that will bring and end to it."

I can sum my position, for our purposes here, as follows: whatever Israel does to protect itself will be deemed unspeakable by the international campaign now waged against it; the Israelis should see this as liberating, and start worrying only about their own interests, needs and conscience. Indeed, they will have no choice if they want to survive, not just as a country, but as individuals.

Posted by: adam62 | January 25, 2011 9:05 AM | Report abuse

I just looove this:
==============
the Israelis are living on the soil that used to belong to those Palestinians
====================

That's one of the aspects of force that liberals simply cannot understand. Israel exists solely because it can.

the arabs made three attempts to drive them off and lost each and every one of them.

so, whine all you like pal. When the murdering thugs so you clearly love stop killing each other for long enough to get serious they will realize that they cannot wrest the land from a determined people with a superior culture and superior technology.

What is it like to wake up in the morning knowing that you support one of the most murderous theologies in our history Shingo?

hmmmmm?

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 25, 2011 11:40 AM | Report abuse

“I see that the anti-Semite card has been played to characterize people of my "ilk". Is that supposed to end the debate with a "gotch ya"? I have many friends within the peace community who are Jewish. They, like I, are anti-Zionist because Zionism is racist. “

In response to missybeat’s quote, Zionism is merely Jewish nationalism, the belief that the Jewish people should have a Jewish state. Jewish nationalism is no different than French nationalism, Dutch nationalism, Swiss nationalism, or any of the other 100 plus nationalisms upon which the International state system is based. If Jewish nationalism is racism, then so to is every other form of Nationalism and every other Nation State on earth. It is possible to loathe Nationalism and the Nation State and condemn them all. In practice, those who condemn Zionism (i.e., Jewish nationalism) and claim it’s racist don’t condemn all nationalisms, they single out one nationality (the Jews) and one nation state (The Jewish nation state) Israel. The most reasonable explanation for singling out the Jewish nationalism and therefore the Jewish nation state as racist is animosity towards the Jewish nationality; otherwise you’d apply your standard equally and condemn all forms of nationalism.

So no missybeat, you’re not as victim of Jews waving the Anti-Semitism card, you’ve applied a double standard solely to Israel and the Jews and got called on it, as did Steve Clemons. You are both, just as Jennifer Rubin claimed, Israel bashers.

Posted by: *JRapp | January 25, 2011 12:56 PM | Report abuse

Wrong, JRapp. I oppose US nationalism. I abhor American exceptionalism. I consider myself a citizen of the world. I don't bash Israel; I bash oppression.

Posted by: missybeat | January 25, 2011 1:06 PM | Report abuse

You called Zionism racism though,are all nation states racist? If so, why single out Zionism as racist, like you did.

Posted by: *JRapp | January 25, 2011 1:33 PM | Report abuse

A very interesting comment on Clemon's post on the "flotilla."

"A friend who is a centrist Democrat, a retired college history prof, and a person who has never had any use for discrimination, racism, or bias of any kind said to me, in a very brief, subdued comment: "Israel is an albatross around the Democratic Party's neck."

I think this is part of the Democratic Party's recent turnaround on Israel. Israel was fine when it was perceived as weak and in danger. Now, the left thinks the danger is over, even as Iran builds a bomb with one purpose.


"The current government of Israel and the current mindset of the majority of Israelis (as best that can be determined) seem to me to validate that observation. What a waste of what should have made itself into a vibrant, peaceful democracy once its existence was accepted - and it was, in spite of all the legitimate arguments against how it was created, and at whose expense."

It was ? Who do you talk to ? And tell me why it is not a "vibrant, peaceful democracy?" Do you know that there are more high tech IPOs in Israel than the US since the Democrats drove them offshore ? Sarbanes-Oxley has largely ended the US's role in new technology startups.

Some people just hate it when others acquire the ability to defend themselves and prosper without our help.

Posted by: mtkennedy | January 25, 2011 2:38 PM | Report abuse

I see that many here are just rubbing their hands in anticiaption of the next war between the terrorits and Israel and the opportunity to spread more lies about the evils of the IDF.
Guess what, who cares ? The IDF will destroy those savages yet again and once again the vaunted Arab warriors will hide behind women and children or send those women and children out with explosive vests for the glory of Palestine ...

Posted by: theghost | January 25, 2011 4:12 PM | Report abuse

Quod erat demonstrandum. Brava, J-Rub!

Posted by: RereadBurke | January 25, 2011 4:39 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: adam62 | January 25, 2011 9:05 AM

"whatever Israel does to protect itself will be deemed unspeakable by the international campaign now waged against it"

That's because Israel claims that any violence it perpeptrates is in the name of defense, and Israeli apologists like yourself will accept these claims without question.

"Israelis should see this as liberating, and start worrying only about their own interests, needs and conscience."

I agree, especialty given that Israeli policies have not been in Israel's interests.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 25, 2011 4:54 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: skipsailing28 | January 25, 2011 11:40 AM

"That's one of the aspects of force that liberals simply cannot understand. Israel exists solely because it can."

No, Isrel exists coley because it exists. On the other hand, Israel cotnimnues to steal land and build illegal settlements solely because it can.

"the arabs made three attempts to drive them off and lost each and every one of them."

False. They made on e attempt only and that attempt was to drive Israeli forces out of Palestine AFTER Israel declared independence and ceased to be part of Palestine. Isrel has staretd every war since since, with the possible exception of 1973, which was payback for 1967.

"When the murdering thugs so you clearly love stop killing each other for long enough to get serious they will realize that they cannot wrest the land from a determined people with a superior culture and superior technology."

Keep your hubris in check skipsailing28. The Nazi's thought the same thing. So did the Soviets.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 25, 2011 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: *JRapp | January 25, 2011 12:56 PM
“ Jewish nationalism is no different than French nationalism, Dutch nationalism, Swiss nationalism”

Nothing could be further from the truth and frankly, I am amazed that people are not ashamed to make such a ludicrous argument. None of these states defines itself by any religion. None of these states deny nationality to an indigenous population at the expense of a foreign population that has never even visited the country, but qualifies due to their religious affiliation. None of these states has laws that discriminate against all groups but one on the basis of religion. None of the states claims the right to strip the nationality of those born in the state on the basis of their religion. None of these states.

Jewish nationalism is racism, because it is based on the exclusivity based on birthright alone.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 25, 2011 5:14 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: *JRapp | January 25, 2011

"You called Zionism racism though,are all nation states racist?"

Not democratic ones, because democracies are based on recognizing everyone's rights, regarldess of religion.

Posted by: Shingo1 | January 25, 2011 5:30 PM | Report abuse

Feeling like that little streetsweeper guy twitching his mustache in the old Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoons, when everything that has needed to be said has been said, and in appreciation for Shingo1's good manners, I hereby close this thoughtful, deeply serious colloquy on the Israel situation with the humble observations that what we have witnessed is much better than a Grand Slam final (rubber-necking-wise), J-Rub's certainly earned her pay on this exchange, and boy that Philip Roth is sure something, eh?
:-) (No replies necessary)

Posted by: aardunza | January 25, 2011 5:42 PM | Report abuse

"Israelis should see this as liberating, and start worrying only about their own interests, needs and conscience."

Easy statement to make when you're using daddy's credit card.

They already do this at OUR expense. Us Americans provide them welfare at the expense of other Americans. Us American Jews get shaken down by the Israelis to buy bonds to support them.

So is welfare and begging a "right" or "conservative" principle? Only for Israelis I guess.

Posted by: mfray | January 26, 2011 9:12 AM | Report abuse

They lie, they cheat, they steal and they engage in behavior that, when demonstrated by South Afrikaners or rogue Serbians, are decried as criminal. Yet, whenever Israel is criticized, the world is reminded of the Holocaust and taken to task for its continued anti-Semitism.

If only the Roma people, who were similarly devastated in the Second World War, by the same Nazis, had the same guile and gall. Perhaps they too would would be developing and expanding some purloined Mediterranean beach-front property.

One wonders: What's the secret? Is is genuine delusion? Or extraordinary self-discipline?

Posted by: unclesmedley1 | January 26, 2011 5:31 PM | Report abuse

unclesmedley1
"They lie, they cheat, they steal and they engage in behavior that, when demonstrated by South Afrikaners or rogue Serbians, are decried as criminal. Yet, whenever Israel is criticized, the world is reminded of the Holocaust and taken to task for its continued anti-SemitismIf only the Roma people, who were similarly devastated in the Second World War, by the same Nazis"

missybeat"I couldn't help but compare the suffering of the Jewish people to the suffering of the Palestinians at the hands of descendants of those who were so persecuted by the Nazis."

Shingo1 The Nazi's thought the same thing. So did the Soviets.

Shingo1 Furthermore, Israel and the US have both threatened Iran repeatedly,.

Shingo1 They made on e attempt only and that attempt was to drive Israeli forces out of Palestine AFTER Israel declared independence and ceased to be part of Palestine. Isrel has staretd every war since since, with the possible exception of 1973, which was payback for 1967

Shingo1 "You have to love how PEP's like getreal22 are so proud to acknowledge their willingness to check their Liberal ideology at the door when the subject of Israel comes us.

Having made their continued observations
of the repeated "Big Lies" and "Double Standards" of "Those of Your Ilk" I applaud the following responses.

JRapp "So no missybeat, you’re not as victim of Jews waving the Anti-Semitism card, you’ve applied a double standard solely to Israel and the Jews and got called on it, as did Steve Clemons. You are both, just as Jennifer Rubin claimed, Israel bashers."

mtkennedy "Some people just hate it when others acquire the ability to defend themselves and prosper without our help"

Now Me Again
It’s amazing how "Those of Your Ilk" on one hand decry the “Anti-Semitism card” and on the other hand compare Israel” to the same Nazis” Also "They lie, they cheat, they steal” Nothing new as that’s an old “Anti-Semitic “ canard throughout history repeated most recently by Hitler the Klan and cloaked or otherwise in this Blog. unclesmedley1 I won ‘t call you a Nazi but
“If the Jackboot Fits Wear It”.

Missybeat you can find plenty of “Jewish Friends” in Israel who disagree with Government Policy and are free to protest in public, online, etc the same as here without fear of being jailed or killed as in Gaza, Iran, Lebanon, etc,

Which reminds me Shingo1, the Iran that you say the US and Israel repeatedly threaten., is this the same Iran whose (unduly elected”)President has threatened to “Wipe Israel Off The Map”/”Make Them Disappear”, Execute (Maybe by Stoning) Women for Adultery and Kill Their Citizens in the street ?! Thank God for the US/Israel collaboration on the Stuxnet Worm. You think it was the “Dirty Work of the Israel Lobby” , the US acting out of a sense of acting out of a sense of guilt or as always, rightfully, in it’s own best interest, always and always will. Interesting “Victims” you picked, Shingo1.

Posted by: getreal22 | January 27, 2011 3:02 PM | Report abuse

unclesmedley1
"They lie, they cheat, they steal and they engage in behavior that, when demonstrated by South Afrikaners or rogue Serbians, are decried as criminal. Yet, whenever Israel is criticized, the world is reminded of the Holocaust and taken to task for its continued anti-SemitismIf only the Roma people, who were similarly devastated in the Second World War, by the same Nazis"

missybeat"I couldn't help but compare the suffering of the Jewish people to the suffering of the Palestinians at the hands of descendants of those who were so persecuted by the Nazis."

Shingo1 The Nazi's thought the same thing. So did the Soviets.

Shingo1 Furthermore, Israel and the US have both threatened Iran repeatedly,.

Shingo1 They made on e attempt only and that attempt was to drive Israeli forces out of Palestine AFTER Israel declared independence and ceased to be part of Palestine. Isrel has staretd every war since since, with the possible exception of 1973, which was payback for 1967

Shingo1 "You have to love how PEP's like getreal22 are so proud to acknowledge their willingness to check their Liberal ideology at the door when the subject of Israel comes us.

Having made their continued observations
of the repeated "Big Lies" and "Double Standards" of "Those of Your Ilk" I applaud the following responses.

JRapp "So no missybeat, you’re not as victim of Jews waving the Anti-Semitism card, you’ve applied a double standard solely to Israel and the Jews and got called on it, as did Steve Clemons. You are both, just as Jennifer Rubin claimed, Israel bashers."

mtkennedy "Some people just hate it when others acquire the ability to defend themselves and prosper without our help"

Now Me Again
It’s amazing how "Those of Your Ilk" on one hand decry the “Anti-Semitism card” and on the other hand compare Israel” to the same Nazis” Also "They lie, they cheat, they steal” Nothing new as that’s an old “Anti-Semitic “ canard throughout history repeated most recently by Hitler the Klan and cloaked or otherwise in this Blog. unclesmedley1 I won ‘t call you a Nazi but
“If the Jackboot Fits Wear It”.

Missybeat you can find plenty of “Jewish Friends” in Israel who disagree with Government Policy and are free to protest in public, online, etc the same as here without fear of being jailed or killed as in Gaza, Iran, Lebanon, etc,

Which reminds me Shingo1, the Iran that you say the US and Israel repeatedly threaten., is this the same Iran whose (unduly elected”)President has threatened to “Wipe Israel Off The Map”/”Make Them Disappear”, Execute (Maybe by Stoning) Women for Adultery and Kill Their Citizens in the street ?! Thank God for the US/Israel collaboration on the Stuxnet Worm. You think it was the “Dirty Work of the Israel Lobby” , the US acting out of a sense of acting out of a sense of guilt or as always, rightfully, in it’s own best interest, always and always will. Interesting “Victims” you picked, Shingo1.

Posted by: getreal22 | January 27, 2011 3:03 PM | Report abuse

unclesmedley1
"They lie, they cheat, they steal and they engage in behavior that, when demonstrated by South Afrikaners or rogue Serbians, are decried as criminal. Yet, whenever Israel is criticized, the world is reminded of the Holocaust and taken to task for its continued anti-SemitismIf only the Roma people, who were similarly devastated in the Second World War, by the same Nazis"

missybeat"I couldn't help but compare the suffering of the Jewish people to the suffering of the Palestinians at the hands of descendants of those who were so persecuted by the Nazis."

Shingo1 The Nazi's thought the same thing. So did the Soviets.

Shingo1 Furthermore, Israel and the US have both threatened Iran repeatedly,.

Shingo1 They made on e attempt only and that attempt was to drive Israeli forces out of Palestine AFTER Israel declared independence and ceased to be part of Palestine. Isrel has staretd every war since since, with the possible exception of 1973, which was payback for 1967

Shingo1 "You have to love how PEP's like getreal22 are so proud to acknowledge their willingness to check their Liberal ideology at the door when the subject of Israel comes us.

Having made their continued observations
of the repeated "Big Lies" and "Double Standards" of "Those of Your Ilk" I applaud the following responses.

JRapp "So no missybeat, you’re not as victim of Jews waving the Anti-Semitism card, you’ve applied a double standard solely to Israel and the Jews and got called on it, as did Steve Clemons. You are both, just as Jennifer Rubin claimed, Israel bashers."

mtkennedy "Some people just hate it when others acquire the ability to defend themselves and prosper without our help"

Now Me Again
It’s amazing how "Those of Your Ilk" on one hand decry the “Anti-Semitism card” and on the other hand compare Israel” to the same Nazis” Also "They lie, they cheat, they steal” Nothing new as that’s an old “Anti-Semitic “ canard throughout history repeated most recently by Hitler the Klan and cloaked or otherwise in this Blog. unclesmedley1 I won ‘t call you a Nazi but
“If the Jackboot Fits Wear It”.

Missybeat you can find plenty of “Jewish Friends” in Israel who disagree with Government Policy and are free to protest in public, online, etc the same as here without fear of being jailed or killed as in Gaza, Iran, Lebanon, etc,

Which reminds me Shingo1, the Iran that you say the US and Israel repeatedly threaten., is this the same Iran whose (unduly elected”)President has threatened to “Wipe Israel Off The Map”/”Make Them Disappear”, Execute (Maybe by Stoning) Women for Adultery and Kill Their Citizens in the street ?! Thank God for the US/Israel collaboration on the Stuxnet Worm. You think it was the “Dirty Work of the Israel Lobby” , the US acting out of a sense of acting out of a sense of guilt or as always, rightfully, in it’s own best interest, always and always will. Interesting “Victims” you picked, Shingo1.

Posted by: getreal22 | January 27, 2011 3:03 PM | Report abuse

Interesting that in yours and Missybeat’s rantings you haven’t mentioned Palestinians such as Mahmoud Abbas who has told Iran to “mind their own business” and nation builder “par excellence” Salam Fayyed who will have systems for statehood at the ready when they can make peace without risking assassination from your buddies in Hamas. Instead you "bleed" for Gaza with their new high end shopping malls while powering them and living off of electricity from Israel power plants,and through Israel have a free flow of goods into Gaza after
confiscation of weaponry and materials that can be used as such to keep their Hamas protectors from firing Rockets and worse into Israel who you "libel" while ignoring the atrocities in Iran,Darfur and Kurdistan.That's a "Double Standard" (just one example ) which makes labeling "Those Your Ilk" as appropriate,Anti Semitic.
Sorry Missbeat "Gotcha"

Shingo1 They made on e attempt only and that attempt was to drive Israeli forces out of Palestine AFTER Israel declared independence and ceased to be part of Palestine. Isrel has staretd every war since since, with the possible exception of 1973, which was payback for 1967

Oh Shingo1,the one who demands "substance" while disavowing and/or ignoring any and all of the thoughtful responses that preceded or were susequent to mine as you continue to attempt to "Spread the Big Lie"

After Israel repelled the 1948 attack by the armies of Egypt,Syria and Jordan the UN offered an area for state far less defensible than the pre 1967 borders which Israel foolishly accepted and the Arabs even more foolishly turned down.The 1967 preemptive strike on the Arab Armies amassed on Israel's borders was legal under international law and would not have moved against the West Bank which they had recognized as "Disputed Territories" along with the rest of the Western World as a protectorate of Jordan,who goaded by the other Arab countries fired on Israel. After the failed "payback" of 1973 that made 3 wars started by the Arab Countries -0- for Israel.

Shingo1 "You have to love how PEP's like getreal22 are so proud to acknowledge their willingness to check their Liberal ideology at the door when the subject of Israel comes us

For those who may be unfamiliar with PEP's it means "Progressives Except Palestine". Sorry Shingo1,it's difficult to reach the levels of "Progressiveness"
of "Those Your Ilk",Shingo1. Consider the "Anti Semitic Card" dealt.

Posted by: getreal22 | January 27, 2011 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Interesting that in yours and Missybeat’s rantings you haven’t mentioned Palestinians such as Mahmoud Abbas who has told Iran to “mind their own business” and nation builder “par excellence” Salam Fayyed who will have systems for statehood at the ready when they can make peace without risking assassination from your buddies in Hamas. Instead you "bleed" for Gaza with their new high end shopping malls while powering them and living off of electricity from Israel power plants,and through Israel have a free flow of goods into Gaza after
confiscation of weaponry and materials that can be used as such to keep their Hamas protectors from firing Rockets and worse into Israel who you "libel" while ignoring the atrocities in Iran,Darfur and Kurdistan.That's a "Double Standard" (just one example ) which makes labeling "Those Your Ilk" as appropriate,Anti Semitic.
Sorry Missbeat "Gotcha"

Shingo1 They made on e attempt only and that attempt was to drive Israeli forces out of Palestine AFTER Israel declared independence and ceased to be part of Palestine. Isrel has staretd every war since since, with the possible exception of 1973, which was payback for 1967

Oh Shingo1,the one who demands "substance" while disavowing and/or ignoring any and all of the thoughtful responses that preceded or were susequent to mine as you continue to attempt to "Spread the Big Lie"

After Israel repelled the 1948 attack by the armies of Egypt,Syria and Jordan the UN offered an area for state far less defensible than the pre 1967 borders which Israel foolishly accepted and the Arabs even more foolishly turned down.The 1967 preemptive strike on the Arab Armies amassed on Israel's borders was legal under international law and would not have moved against the West Bank which they had recognized as "Disputed Territories" along with the rest of the Western World as a protectorate of Jordan,who goaded by the other Arab countries fired on Israel. After the failed "payback" of 1973 that made 3 wars started by the Arab Countries -0- for Israel.

Shingo1 "You have to love how PEP's like getreal22 are so proud to acknowledge their willingness to check their Liberal ideology at the door when the subject of Israel comes us

For those who may be unfamiliar with PEP's it means "Progressives Except Palestine". Sorry Shingo1,it's difficult to reach the levels of "Progressiveness"
of "Those Your Ilk",Shingo1. Consider the "Anti Semitic Card" dealt.

Posted by: getreal22 | January 27, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Interesting that in yours and Missybeat’s rantings you haven’t mentioned Palestinians such as Mahmoud Abbas who has told Iran to “mind their own business” and nation builder “par excellence” Salam Fayyed who will have systems for statehood at the ready when they can make peace without risking assassination from your buddies in Hamas. Instead you "bleed" for Gaza with their new high end shopping malls while powering them and living off of electricity from Israel power plants,and through Israel have a free flow of goods into Gaza after
confiscation of weaponry and materials that can be used as such to keep their Hamas protectors from firing Rockets and worse into Israel who you "libel" while ignoring the atrocities in Iran,Darfur and Kurdistan.That's a "Double Standard" (just one example ) which makes labeling "Those Your Ilk" as appropriate,Anti Semitic.
Sorry Missbeat "Gotcha"

Shingo1 They made on e attempt only and that attempt was to drive Israeli forces out of Palestine AFTER Israel declared independence and ceased to be part of Palestine. Isrel has staretd every war since since, with the possible exception of 1973, which was payback for 1967

Oh Shingo1,the one who demands "substance" while disavowing and/or ignoring any and all of the thoughtful responses that preceded or were susequent to mine as you continue to attempt to "Spread the Big Lie"

After Israel repelled the 1948 attack by the armies of Egypt,Syria and Jordan the UN offered an area for state far less defensible than the pre 1967 borders which Israel foolishly accepted and the Arabs even more foolishly turned down.The 1967 preemptive strike on the Arab Armies amassed on Israel's borders was legal under international law and would not have moved against the West Bank which they had recognized as "Disputed Territories" along with the rest of the Western World as a protectorate of Jordan,who goaded by the other Arab countries fired on Israel. After the failed "payback" of 1973 that made 3 wars started by the Arab Countries -0- for Israel.

Shingo1 "You have to love how PEP's like getreal22 are so proud to acknowledge their willingness to check their Liberal ideology at the door when the subject of Israel comes us

For those who may be unfamiliar with PEP's it means "Progressives Except Palestine". Sorry Shingo1,it's difficult to reach the levels of "Progressiveness"
of "Those Your Ilk",Shingo1. Consider the "Anti Semitic Card" dealt.

Posted by: getreal22 | January 27, 2011 4:20 PM | Report abuse

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