EKZU, beautiful man, just beautiful. As a person of mixed heritage(black/white) and living here in California i can attest to the fact of "whole swaths" of the state looking and becoming VERY 3rd worldish. The "illegal aliens" are indeed practicing ethnic cleansing in various cities here on the coast, whoa unto you if you are not "Latino" or if you question their "right" to bring over as many of their "illegal" kin as fast as possible. We ARE in danger of losing the AMERICAN cultural identity in this state and others and anybody that says it is not so is either blind or lying.

2008 Presidential Election Weekly Poll

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I posted a comment on Martinez' apologia for illegal immigrants on Dec. 18 at 03:41AM. One response to my post typifies what we're up against:

>>Ekzu tries to provide a reasoned argument in favor of why working Americans are and have a right to be opposed to illegal immigration. What he actually shows is the same bigoted assumptions that underlie the whole anti-immigrant movement. Does he think that Telemundo and the local carniceria were created by illegal immigrants? Doubtful. The fact is that people like Ekzu are not opposed to illegal immigrants but to people of a different culture, however much Spanish he may speak. This is no more defensible now than it was during the Irish immigration, the Italian immigration, the Jewish immigration, or any of the other waves of immigration that have been met with Anglo bigotry over the centuries. It's defensible to object to losing jobs to people who work for less than minimum wage -- that I'll definitely grant you. But objecting to people who speak a different language and have a different culture -- that's not defensible, it's just bigoted.

Posted by: Frank S | December 18, 2007 02:29 PM <<

* Of course Telemundo and the local carniceria weren't created by illegal immigrants. Who said they were? They were created FOR illegal immigrants, along with unassimilated legal Hispanic immigrants.

* We are not opposed to different cultures. I just spent over three weeks in Indonesia--a deeply different culture--and had a great time. Nor are we opposed to the proliferation of ethnic shops and eateries. In fifteen minutes' drive from where I live I can dine on the cuisines of literally dozens of countries, and I celebrate the way in which America has become arguably the most multicultural of nations.

What we are opposed to is the wholesale replacement of America's multicultural society with a monocultural Mexican one. This has already occurred across broad swaths of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

At this point a Mexican living here can spend his whole life without needing to learn English, just as a Quebecois can do in Quebec. He can vote in Spanish, choose between half a dozen Spanish-only TV stations, shop in Spanish, and get phone support in Spanish. And if any whites or blacks are left in their neighborhoods...well, the LATimes has reported on ethnic cleansing of such neighborhoods by Mexican gangs (and the LATimes is stridently pro-illegal alien).
And just as Quebec sets itself against the rest of the country, so does our own nascent Quebec. Shop signs in Montreal are required to be in French, for example.

The most insidious part of this is that Meximericans (my term for Mexicans who become American citizens without assimilating to our culture) get all their political information from racialist activists on Spanish language radio and TV stations. They never hear dissenting views. This perpetuates identity politics where they view themselves as Mexicans first and Americans second (if that).

According to the Frank S.'s of the world I'm a "bigot" if I object to any of this. Do I not have a culture? Do only Mexicans have a culture? I know what Mexico would do if a million Americans moved to Guadalajara illegally and tried to ethnically cleanse the city and force everyone dealing with us there to speak English. In fact Mexican law considers illegal immigration a felony, and it deals with illegals brutally.

I fail to grasp how folks like Frank S. appear to believe that America isn't a society with a culture, a past, a language, and a set of traditions, just like every other society on Earth. Every culture is due its measure of respect. He sure shows it for Mexican society. How do we get left out of this list? I don't get it.

No other society on Earth gives people citizenship without expecting them to assimilate. If I wanted to become a citizen of Indonesia I'd have to master Bahasa Indonesia, and learn Indonesian history and customs--and renounce allegiance to my former country. Sounds fair to me.

* I'm not opposed to people of a different culture. How do the Frank S.'s of the world have the effrontery to suppose they can read our minds like this? I've visited 14 countries on four continents. I've lived in Mexico. I have friends from Russia, India, Scotland, Japan, Brazil, China, Indonesia, Iran, and, yes, Mexico. Can Frank S. say the same?

* And I am bloody well opposed to illegal immigrants regardless of culture. One of the loony left's favorite canards is the claim that we wouldn't object if the illegals in question were, say, Swedish. The beauty of insults like this is that they can't be disproven. I could claim that Frank S. spends most of his time thinking about murdering goats. Now prove me wrong. See? You can't, because no one can read another's mind.

Everything I've advocated is aimed at reducing illegal immigration regardless of nation of origin. Checking social security records is completely non-discriminatory.

But while I'm certain there are illegal immigrants from Ireland here, I'm equally sure that they are statistically irrelevant. Nor are they taking over whole cities here in the Southwest. Nor are their children failing to learn good English and failing to graduate even from high school, as is endemic in schools here in the Southwest.

I don't advocate fencing our border with Canada because illegal immigration across that border is a statistical blip. At least 85% of the problem is Latinos illegally coming over the Mexican border.

My focus is on the 85% of the problem. Duh.

* I don't object to people speaking a different language and having a different culture--unless they replace my culture with theirs, on my land. What would Frank S. do if he came home one day and discovered a Mexican family camping in his back yard? I bet he'd call the cops in a New York minute.

* There are certainly Anglo bigots. Just as there are Russian bigots, Jewish bigots, Catholic bigots, Philippino bigots, yada yada. Want to see bigotry? Look into how Mexican Mestizos treat Mexican Indians. The only comparable situation in America would be the treatment of Blacks in the deep South back in the 1950s.

But it's a big leap to assume that just because someone is Anglo and opposes illegal immigration, they must be a bigot. In fact, isn't the definition of "bigot" someone who believes that ALL people of a given group share various undesirable characteristics?

American culture and language deserve to be defended and nurtured just as much as any other culture. It's one thing for an immigrant to assimilate while preserving his own culture at home and adding elements of his culture to the national mix. It's quite another to simply replace ours with theirs.

People who live outside the Southwest experience illegal immigration as a few guys hanging around the local 7-11 looking for day jobs. They have no idea. Spend a month in east LA and then talk to me about the situation here--if you're still alive.

Or get incarcerated in a California prison and try to buddy up with the Mexican illegals in your cell block. Actually, you can't. California's prisons are strictly--and illegally--segregated due to gang warfare instigated by Mexican and Central American gangs, who represent a significant portion of our state's prison population.

Bigoted? Look in a mirror.

Martinez writes, "Can't we all just get along?" and opines that politicians like Governor Huckabee "...seem to be able to stake out well-defined positions without demonizing those who disagree with them."

Oh really? So claiming that individuals like the one who sent in the question (Staggo Lee) are guilty of an "aberrant, unnatural, and sinful lifestyle" that poses a "dangerous health risk" isn't demonizing innocent gay people?

Uh huh.

I am gay. I have been in a healthy, committed, strictly monogamous, honest loving relationship with my life partner for longer than Reverand Huckabee has been in politics. I pose no health threat to Mr. Huckabee. I pose no health threat to myself or my cherished partner.

My personal integrity, honesty, and morality are indistinguishable from that of heterosexuals in lifelong monogamous and honest loving relationships with their spouses.

Yet Huckabee feels obliged to warn society that I'm the one who poses a threat?

That, in my book, is demonization. And it is completely unacceptable in honest and NON-demonizing political debate.

Friends do not let friends be republican.

Why would you keep a friend that is a worthless piece of garbage?

Is a friend's support of Bush grounds for ending a lifelong friendship?

OF COURSE IT IS!

I won't break bread with a Bush supporter in 2007 any more than I'd have sat down to eat with a Hitler supporter in the 1930's or 40's.

Anyone who supports Bush's brand of faith based hate and genocide isn't the kind of person I choose to associate with.

You can keep changing the names... Fascism, National Socialism, Compassionate Conservatism... the end result is the same. And this rose by any other name doth smell just as putrid.

Peace

Contrary to Mr. Martinez's impression, it's well-documented that differences among our politicians are more not less appreciated by our fellow Earthlings of other nations. This is true especially but not only in Western Europe, where mock elections had Gore win 80/20 over Bush. Reportedly, in Vietnam, Bill Clinton was mobbed like a rock star, whereas 43 failed to attract even a crowd. His approval ratings have sunk far lower elsewhere than they likely ever will here, e.g. Pakistan has him scraping bottom at 9 % Foreigners apparently judge our pols by their reported deeds unvarnished by the gloss of numbing spin aimed at American voters and mistaken by Mr. Martinez for a clearer picture.

I had a Thanksgiving dinner at a Friends house and his Mother was one of these who wanted to go against Actors who said things against Bush. Ed Harris had called him a Damn Cowboy. I never could get my mind around these Neo-Cons who think that Actors and the Media have to follow Bush and all these other Asssholes like Cheney. This is American so screw all the Neo-Cons. Im not going to curb my tongue for these anal retentive nutcases who will blindly follow the Administration straight to hell. Why do they think Actors or the Media have to give them any special consideration. The Conservatives dont give any special consideration, why should they ever get it?

Bush voters have supported the illegal invasion of Iraq, Bush voters have supported the murder of tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens, Bush voters have supported the illegal torture of anyone that Bush claims to be hostile to his rule, Bush voters have supported the illegal wiretapping of American citizens, Bush voters have supported the racist and homophobic policies of the Bush administration, Bush voters have supported the anti-science, pro-ignorance policies of the corrupt and criminal members of the Bush administration....and golly gee, why can't normal human beings just "get along" with Bush voters? In a just world, physicians would refuse to provide Bush voters with medical care on the grounds that healing a Bush voter endangers the health of every decent living entity on earth.

Sorry, it's still a free country and life is short. Anyone who is so stupid as to still be engaged in Bush worship is too stupid to be my friend.

Hey, Enogabal (12/18) I have a similar prob. Both my brothers are conservative, one moreso than the other. I recently took a trip to Italy with the more passionate one. We agreed to avoid politics. It was harder for him than for me, and occasionally he'd make anti Dem remarks and I just shook my head and let them pass.

It will not end in 2008 because a climate of passionate opposition has been created by Bush. In all of my 76 years I have never known such animosity of one party for another. (Remember bush's promise to be a pres who brought the parties together? A sad sad irony) I blame Bush and Rove for all of the hatred.

Actually, your belief that legal immigrants want what illegal immigrants want is untrue. Recent statewide referendums show that hispanics overwhelmingly voted with their black and white fellow citizens to deny state benefits to illegal aliens. In NY, the polls showed a majority of legal immigrants were opposed to Spitzer plan to give licenses to illegals. YOu can believe what you want, and most knowledgeable people know better than to trust what comes out of the Pew Hispanic polling. They were very wrong on the Arizona, California and Colorado initiatives, and are as reliable as toys made in China.

When I was in college, a boyfriend stopped dating me when he found out I was a Republican. To this day, I don't understand that. However, as someone who was "raised" Republican, I can see no Republican today that I can even conceive of voting for. The Bush administration managed to do what my long-lost boyfriend could not: turn me into a Democrat.

Once President Bush visited the school where a friend of mine was band director. The band played for the president. It was a great honor. But some parents were incensed by the band's participation in any event that involved Bush (it was just a visit). One of my friend's friends was so incensed that he kept sending my friend nasty emails until they stopped being friends. I can't stand Bush personally, but he's the president and it's always an honor to play for the president, any president.

Ekzu-- man, I just want to say I loved your commentary. Thank you for articulating this viewpoint so eloquently!

The loss of the non-Christian vote as well as the loss of the Latino vote could double-handedly crush the Republican candidate's chance at election.

However, Huckabee and Giuliani, while taking hard stances on immigration as of late, are going to abandon those "passionate" feelings once the primary season is over (whoever emerges victoriously) and return to a more centrist position.

In fact, the only candidates that are truly hardline on immigration have no chance. Hunter and Tancredo can be examples of what happens to people when they become so bogged down by isolationism that they lose track of what the voters actually care about.

It might be cheaper to hire someone off the books who isn't supposed to be here, and in so doing disenfranchise someone who lived here since birth, but we should remove the illegal labor pool, not merely out of the need to enforce the law. If we lose respect for law, could we lose credibility completely in our system?

The answers to America's problems don't come from south of the border. The answers are already here. Many people would rather not look at them, though, because they are black, or disabled, or on welfare, or in Appalachia or the Mississippi Delta, or something.

We would solve a lot of our own problems: unemployment, welfare dependency, provide options to crime for those who want it.

Yes, it would cost business people money. They are American citizens with rights, although that is not to say that God does not love illegal aliens less, He does not.

America needs to confront its problems, not cover them up with illegal workers, welfare, and prisons.

I have a friend who is a non-stop Bush-hating ranter and I just can't stand to be near him. It is sad to see so many otherwise pleasant and reasonable people lose their mind over their hatred of Bush.

Read some of Sara Carter's investigative reporting, to see the magnitude of the illegal immigration problem.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/katz2006.html

And listen to The Guy From Boston to hear what American citizens are thinking.

http://theguyfromboston.com/playvideo1.asp?video=/videos/Illegal-Aliens.wmv

@ Bob:

You're the only tin-foil wearing BDS-afflicted nut here today!

@EdtheRed:

Excellent!

My advice to Staggo Lee would be to avoid throwing dice with anyone named Billy Lyon, and for God's sake, don't buy anyone named Delia a gin fizz.

As expected, another discussion thread that degenerates into idiotic, rabid, profanity-laced anti-Bush paranoid rant by a handful of tinfoil hat-wearing frustrated lefties. I especially enjoyed the "Bush did 9-11 /traitors should be hanged" riff.

We are having our Constitution trampled on. If we can find ways to express our frustration without turning off the other person then DO IT! If you lose your patience and argue, or cause them to get mad with condescension, then you will only solidify their beliefs.

The people who are trampling on our Constitution are banking on society marginalizing people interested in opposition. We must agitate, but we must keep it impersonal and factual.

Remember, you will never, ever get someone to admit when they're wrong or that you've changed their minds. Victory in a discussion of politics comes when the other person has nothing else to say. Don't gloat or persist, just feel confident that maybe you got through a little this time and leave it at that.

As an American of Mexican descent, I feel that something should be done. What needs to be done is the hard part. There is not an immediate solution to the problem.

I think there should be a way for immigrants to come in and work as long as they are paying to support the infrastructure and they are not criminals. Being in this country illegally is not a crime, but more of a civil offense. So we cannot treat all illegal immigrants as criminals. I think this would create more problems than it would solve. And for those that want to become citizens, give them a path that would encourage them to assimilate into American culture. I don't believe that immigrants should leave all their culture behind just because they come to the US. All the different cultures in the US are what makes this country special. What would we do without St. Patrick's Day?

What kills me about this debate is how the politicians try to monopolize the issue by making empty promises. Passing new laws on top of laws that already exist are going make them harder to enforce. Also, the people who make it a racial issue. I mean, do you really think immigrants want to make this country like their own? If that was the case, why would they have left in the first place. And for the idiot groups that say this was their country before it became the USA, so what. It is the USA now and good luck trying to get it back. And least but not least, last time I checked illegal immigrants do not qualify for welfare or social security. If they are getting those, then it is a crime of fraud and it should be treated as such.

Andrés,

Paul asked you about the stance of foreign born Latino citizens. But, what is at least as interesting is what do native born Latinos (and hence US citizens) feel about those same topics. Using the same Pew survey but highlighting the distinctions between those who are definitely Latino citizens (ie the native-born) and foreign born Latinos (who may or may not be legal residents or citizens)we learn that only 39 percent of native-born Latinos oppose authorities checking immigration status before granting a driver´s license. This compares to 66 percent of foreign born Latinos. An ample majority, 63 percent of native born Hispanics disapprove of workplace raids, but that is significantly lower than the 84 percent of foreign born Latinos who disapprove.
Luis Clemens
Editor
CandidatoUSA.com

Completely disagree with the author's response regarding that the world views the dem/pub clash in the US as something like 'VISA vs MASTERCARD'. The world cares quite a bit about who the next president of the U.S. is... non-Americans generally tend to associate Republicans with Bush (hawkish) and Democrats with B. Clinton (less hawkish).

Don't assume that just because Americans often fail to show an interest in foreign policy, that the rest of the world has the same lack of knowledge about us. Many around the world are rooting hard for a mid-left candidate to win in '08.

Ekzu tries to provide a reasoned argument in favor of why working Americans are and have a right to be opposed to illegal immigration. What he actually shows is the same bigoted assumptions that underlie the whole anti-immigrant movement. Does he think that Telemundo and the local carniceria were created by illegal immigrants? Doubtful. The fact is that people like Ekzu are not opposed to illegal immigrants but to people of a different culture, however much Spanish he may speak. This is no more defensible now than it was during the Irish immigration, the Italian immigration, the Jewish immigration, or any of the other waves of immigration that have been met with Anglo bigotry over the centuries. It's defensible to object to losing jobs to people who work for less than minimum wage -- that I'll definitely grant you. But objecting to people who speak a different language and have a different culture -- that's not defensible, it's just bigoted.

It depends on the behavior.

If he throws things at his own TV when Bush comes on, and is organizing a militia with his old Army buddies for 2009, just in case - well, that's ok, he's pretty normal.

But if he throws things at YOUR TV when he comes over to watch a game with you, or "borrows" your sniper scope, just in case, well ... he's crossed the line.

Friendship is a funny thing.

A very good response on the immigration issue. Indeed, Bush's policy on immigration is about the only thing he's done in the last seven years that I've agreed with. Too bad he can't get the rest of his party to talk sense on this issue.

Americans who care about the Democracy and all the other principles America was founded on are "mad as hell" with Bush/Cheney, and with the Republican controlled press which has aided them in waging war and turning American into a Bush dictatorship and thwarting Impeachment.

The email which started this article reads like a Republican PR piece.

We ARE angry.

Bush has bankrupted the middle class and turned the statement "American Democracy" into a farce.

I was a lifelong registered Republican, and I will never, NEVER, vote for another Republican again.

oops. comment on other flipped over to here.
on progressive friends..

rabid left and rabid right are the same animal,
just different tastes.

consider that in your decisions.

variety is the spice of life ,but i ain't eating grubs or monkey brains.

only certain Dems.
ObamA/Edwards would be the ulitmate ticket.

the world is no longer willing to look at us through rose colored glasses.

even if we continue to ignore our countries downfall and fall from grace ....and act like the three monkeys ourselves.

im homeless and wrong disblities toomany medical conditons to get the right help ..so i know and live what a hellish horrible failure it is.

I try to get along with Bush lovers, but the fact remains they support torture, ignoring the 4th Amendment and fascism. I can't.

So my relationship with those folks will always be strained to some degree. It's not like the 90s where it was about taxation or not. It's now about very basic stuff that cuts to the core about being an American and a human being.

I hope someday when they will give up this uber right wing rhetoric we'll be able to mend fences and once again talk about whether we should tax or not.

Now, now OneifbyLand, you are pulling number out of your behind. The most accepted figure is 12 million illegal aliens, and not all are Hispanics...but 20 million Hispanic aliens? Get real! Where did you get that number?

Who wants morons for friends, anyway? Bush did 9-11. Treason is treason. The closeted Dems in Congress cover for the closeted Republicans who worked with Guckert-lover Bush and Mary's "Pop" Cheney in their crime. Those who support Bush must be shunned or indicted.

In 1776 Tories, gay or straight, left or died. Americans must be no less stringent today. PhD Griffin's "The New Pearl Harbor" makes the ironclad case that 9-11 was committed by Bush treason. Traitors must be hanged.

The illegal immigration issue is created by the Roman Church, to which many Latinos, citizen, green card, or illegal, subscribe. "The National Pastoral Plan for Hispanic Ministry," by the U.S. Conference of Roman Catholic Bishops, sets out Rome's stratagem, in Spanish and English, in 36-pages, for usurping the Republic by promoting illegal immigration, amnesty, naturalization and voter registration - to take back that which the Roman Church teaches was stolen from the Roman Catholic explorers and missionaries.

We're taught the polite don't speak of politics, religion or sex, because the ruling false-elite is fascist, Anti-Christ, and perverse.

Build the Fence, hang Bush and Cheney, expropriate, deport and/or execute Rome and their Fifth Column, and give citizenship to the worthy illegals. Then all will be well in an America united once more.

Most Americans expect Muslims to condemn the lawless acts of other Muslims. Perhaps it is not fair, but many Muslims have figured out that they benefit from distancing themselves from the extremists. Why should Americans not expect the same from Latinos? I have read legal Latinos complain that they fear discrimination, but they do nothing to separate themselves from the illegal immigrants.

My best friend came from Puerto Rico and her husband from Canada. Both are offended by the illegal aliens who cross the border in the trunk of a car and climbing out, then demand benefits, education, medical care, and lately special legal rights.
That crack about our laws being capricious--well,its amazing that those who are so critical of our laws fight so hard to get in and stay. As to xenophobic people--for an excellent example--Look at what is happening on Mexico's Southern border to Guatamalan illegals. There's xenophobia.

The question was NOT answered. What do Latino CITIZENS think? (Not illegal aliens and not legal Greencard Latino holders)

The question was NOT answered. What do Latino CITIZENS think? (Not illegal aliens and not legal Greencard Latino holders)

My brother has a far more charitable view of Bush & Co. than I do. After a couple of mildly heated phone conversations on the subject, I decided that I'd rather keep my relationship with my brother than sacrifice it over who-struck-John in Iraq. So we just talk about family stuff now. But ,boy, sometimes it's a real strain to keep my mouth shut! :-)

It is easy for someone to say: "Can't we all just get along?" But what creates all of this frustration and anger are all of these silly talk shows on radio and TV. When all people hear daily is that they suck if they happen to subscribe to a certain political belief, or that they should go off somewhere and die if they happen to have a certain sexual orientation and have contracted aids, or that if they believe in a strong compassionate government that actively helps the least among us they are communists pinko socialists, or if they believe tat America's strength comes from diversity they are anit-American, or if they believe that Presidents ought to exhaust all diplomatic efforts before sending off young people to die ina foreign country they are linguini-spined cowards and traitors.

What I have described above is common, daily fare on radio and TV talk shows every day. The success of these shows fairly shouts that no, we can't all just get along. Not while fat, wealthy bloats like Limbaugh get a 20 million dollar contract to spew out that sort of venom.

Thanks for the answer. I can see how my analogy may not demonstrate the same feeling that is generally held by latino's.

However, as someone above pointed out,

My question was "What do legally immigrated American citizens of hispanic descent think of illegal immigration" NOT "What does a random population of hispanics think".

SteelWill makes a good point too--"I would like to know what other non-Latino "legal" immigrants has to say about the over population of Latino illegal immigrants".

A poll of all Latino's is done quite often, but I was curious if there was anything more targeted to specific sub-populations (i.e. first generation legal immigrants, naturalized citizens who had waited for over 5 years before being granted citizenship, etc).

You are just one more villager who says people that disagree with you (i.e. they act partisan) are "small-minded". Look, politics is partisan by definition. It always has been nasty and it will continue to be.

If Staggo doesn't want to hang out with his partisan friend anymore that is his choice. That doesn't make his friend small-minded, it only makes him with one less friend. Make your own choices Staggo and leave your friend or ex-friend alone to make his and stop looking to others to solve your social issues.

Just get along? Nonsense. Nobody has been worse at getting along than the Bush administration, which uses platitudes like "let's just get along" to get their way or the highway. Americans who at this point still support this administration deserve to be booed in public for their complacency or cruelty, whichever it is in their case. This is not about getting along, this is about defending fact based discussions and sound judgement against a ruthless propaganda machine that brought us at least one useless war and countless other heartless hardships on Americans. Disdain for the Bush administration is the only sane response: and contempt for people who continue to be blissfully clueless is also warranted.

pacorabo wrote "after hard arm-twisting by US trade negotiators, Mexico has accepted subsidized corn from Iowa starting in 2008. As a result, additional millions of Mexican peasants will no longer be able to make a living on their farms"

two points regarding this statement...

point 1 - When did it become OUR responsibility to make sure the Mexican government has the cajones to stand up for their people and ensure that the trade agreements benefit THEM? OUR trade negotiators do what they are supposed to do...secure the best deal for the American farmers. If Mexico's democratically elected government doesn't look out for their own people, how is that our fault or our responsibility? Frankly, it isn't...

and point 2 - from what I hear, the price of corn tortilla's has risen 60 percent or more in Mexico because of a SHORTAGE of corn. Tortilla's are a staple of the hispanic diet, especially for the poor. American imports of corn WILL affect the price of the product, but not in the way you indicate. Imported corn SHOULD lessen the shortage (without pricing Mexican farmers out of business) which will help to bring the price of tortilla corn back to what the ordinary Mexican citizen can afford, IF the mexican government does it's job and controls the amount of profit the corn producers reap.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/26/AR2007012601896_pf.html

Mexico needs more corn than it's producing...it's as simple as that. To imply that we are glutting their market and putting their farms out of business is simply dishonest. And to use that falsity as an excuse for illegal immigration is worse than merely 'dishonest', it's contemptable.

The employment office, the welfare office, the library all post notices in spanish, they have posters and bookcases of paperwork in sapanish, all this does is make two classes of people who are illiterate, the mex and the citizen. Is this the new level playing field? Are they intent on making me illiterate in my own country?? An I now the same as the mex, that I can not read the spanish as they can't read the english? Why can't these criminals be shipped back to that stinking country south of us in Cattle cars like they deserve? We are at war and an open border is an invitation for the world to invade us? Stop this invasion now.

As the old saying has it, you can't choose your relatives but you can choose your friends.

Why would you choose to be friends with people who, at this stage of the Bush presidency, still support Bush and the damage he done to Iraq, to human rights, to human decency, to the economy, to the Constitution, to America, and to America's stature in the world?

Why would you choose to be friends with the terminally, obstinately stupid?

The question was "What do legally immigrated American citizens of hispanic descent think of illegal immigration" NOT "What does a random population of hispanics, legal AND illegal, think of illegal immigration."

The columnist cites the Pew Hispanic study but doesn't point out that the respondents may not BE legal hispanic immigrants. Over half of them are afraid that they, a friend, or family member may get deported. That indicates a goodly number of scofflaws and their abettors. Of COURSE illegals and their friends are going to oppose enforcement of immigration laws...but that wasn't the question.

Perhaps "Stumped" (and respondant Andres Martinez) could think about actually answering the question asked instead of fobbing it off on irrelevancies like the Pew Hispanic study. Hows about a link to a poll of ONLY legal hispanics - if such a poll even exists...

It is amazing that in the brand new millenium, folks continue to think of race as a determining factor, or even culture. It is downright funny when the defenders of the "white race" and "anglo-saxon culture" (like JAD) pick on the poor, brown folk below instead of focusing their eyes above on the the WHITE corporate bosses driving all the downsizing and offshoring.
For millions of AMERICANS south of the US border, inmigration into the US is a matter of survival as those same WHITE corporate bosses have wreaked havoc with local economies. Just one example should suffice: after hard arm-twisting by US trade negotiators, Mexico has accepted subsidized corn from Iowa starting in 2008. As a result, additional millions of Mexican peasants will no longer be able to make a living on their farms; many will push northward, wall or no wall, while millions of their FAMILY members and friends will only be honored to help them along. Or would you JAD let your aunty Jane starve in her retirement home? If you have lost that elementary humanity then, yes, pick up your shotgun and go hunting in the desert.

Wonder how Miami Cubans feel about the influx of illegal immigrants from Cuba? You know, the ones who float into citizenship on a raft and a prayer? Since Hugo Chavez is now viewed as a 'dangerous political element" by this country, shouldn't we be extending the same citizenship courtesy to any Venezuelans as we do with the Cubans?

Joey,
By far your post makes the most sense! I would like to know what other non-Latino "legal" immigrants has to say about the over population of Latino illegal immigrants. I think this should be the perspective that immigration policy should take.

Joey,
By far your post makes the most sense! I would like to know what other non-Latino "legal" immigrants has to say about the over population of Latino illegal immigrants. I think this should be the perspective that immigration policy should take.

Anyone interested in a funny (but it really happened) column about what Huckabee is really like face-to-face should try:
http://goupstate.us/index.php/lanefiller/2007/11/02/title_14

with legalization, blacks shall forever be the second smallest minority and a latino majority in congress will not give blacks any special treatment or concessions, no mercy there.

It's not that Bush hatred can end a friendship, it's that Bush approval SHOULD end a friendship.

Dear stumped,

Down in my neck of the woods they're fighting over water (in three generally well watered states!!). . . . . So here's an issue for you Mister straight-shooter, Mister champion of the powerless -- OVERPOPULATION.

Take a look at NPR News last night. They covered the water-shortage from head to toe without ever mentioning overpopulation as a problem, yet Atlanta alone has grown by over 2 million in the last 15 years.

Overpopulation effects things from resource depletion (including water), global-warming, immigration, to urban sprawl. And even still, the powerful refuse to talk about it or cover it in the news. Not one word, not even a blip. Once in a great while the words 'growing population', but never overpopulation. Why they won't even try to refute it. . . . . . So to whom-it-may-concern, you want an issue that represents the powerful negating the powerless, there's your issue.

Overpopulation, the unspeakable issue. Care to comment?

Excellent post by Ekzu previously. I'd love to see the author address his points, but I doubt he can while maintaining his own.

Absurd analogy by the author, and a nonsensical allegation that US laws are "capricious." Fed up with the disingenuous whining by Latinos on behalf of Latinos.

Paul deserved better. Of course American citizens who are Latinos generally support a future replete with more and people of the same race and culture--especially if that includes Uncle Hidalgo and Aunt Dolores. This is simple tribalism, and all humans share this trait. That's a far simpler explanation than your spin-stuffed exegesis. And as Einstein observed, explanations should be as simple as possible (but no simpler).

You are also correct (to a point) that the Latino voting bloc is now so large--courtesy of two previous amnesties--that neither party leadership dares ignore it. OTOH that's hardly a moral argument.

But our southern border has several other virtual signs you failed to notice-- "Safety valve for Mexico's kleptocracy" being the most significant. Mexico's ruling class keeps half of the country's populace in dire poverty, due to their hogging so much of Mexico's rich natural resources. Meanwhile the Catholic Church's opposition to all forms of birth control has resulted in Mexico's populaton exploding from 20 million in 1940 to over 100 million now--far more people than Mexico's economy can absorb.

So according to you, America has to take the fall for the problems Mexico created all on its own. And that "help wanted" sign you allude to was posted there by America's ruling class--the prime beneficiaries of this mostly unarmed invasion. I don't need my lawn mowed by illegals. And I'm happy to pay a dime more for a head of lettuce--which is about what it would cost.

We force skilled workers with advanced degrees and a good command of English to wait a decade to come here while you advocate on behalf of unskilled workers who speak no English, and whose children are less likely to learn fluent English than any other immigrant cohort in American history.

Meanwhile American unskilled workers with a high school diploma or less have seen their real wages cut by a quarter because their bosses use illegals' labor as a club to cut wages and bust unions.

But you don't know any Americans with just a high school diploma, do you?

Your selective focus bespeaks an ethnocentric orientation all too common in today's Democratic Party and the academic sector. Mexican peasants are the new Negroes, taking on the mantle of the noble Rousseauian savage at one with nature. At the same time you dismiss the complaints of Anglos as simple racism, nativism, and other namecalling epithets.

But when you correctly observe that our exploding Mexican and Mesoamerican population is a potent voting bloc, you fail to couple that observation with the fact that you can only pander to this group by alienating the vast majority of America's indigenous--that is, born here--population. And calling us names will only silence a few of us.

Remember when Bush and our "Democratic" Congress conspired to jam what your side propagandizes as "comprehensive immigration reform" down our throats?

It didn't fly because those Congressmen heard from their constituents. What you insult as "nativist" is simply our love of our own culture.

I've been to 14 foreign countries, mixed with the locals, eaten the food, learned some of the language, gone scuba diving and done other forms of adventuring across four continents. In fact I speak Spanish, have studied at the University of Mexico, and am quite comfortable in Mexican society. This invasion doesn't gore my own ox particularly. Who gets hurt is Joe Lunchbox. But I come from Scots-Irish peasant stock myself--including a father with a 7th grade education--and I understand how these folks feel when their TV station turns into a Telemundo branch and their corner market becomes a Carniceria and their grundge rock station starts blasting Tejano. In large swaths across the American Southwest it isn't multiculturalism we're getting. It's ethnic cleansing, with a kind of American Quebec coalescing under our noses.

Your side is likely to win, since your side represents a Devil's bargain between Big Business, Latino racialists, the Catholic Church, and the Democratic Party leadership. Along with various far-left organizations.

All we've got is 80% or so of the American people and Republican pols awkwardly trying to balance their Big Business donor's demands for more illegals against their consitutents' demands for less.

So that's tough odds, I realize. But we'll do what we can.

BTW when you do take the Southwest back from us...will you return it to the Indians you stole it from? When I hear Mexican advocacy groups talking about how the Southwest is really theirs, I never hear them mention this. Ask a Navaho what HE thinks of such claims sometime.

The results aren't really surprising. Latinos want more of their own people here. It a form of bigotry. If I said I wanted more white Europeans here, it would be condemned as racist and bigoted.

Has anyone bothered to poll the other recent legal immigrants who are NOT Latino? Especially those who have to wait up to a decade or more to bring over family members? How do they feel? Do they not count in this equation?

Karl Rove is a troll. His supposedly "sensible" immigration reform was largely politics. The only thing he and Bush care about is trying to build a permanently political majority. It's part of why they failed so miserably. They had zero interest in actually governing.

Out of the 300 million population in the USA the 15%
or 45 million that are hispanic almost half or 20 million
are illegal aliens!{2003 Est.) If 57% of 25 million or about 15 million
legal hispanics voting their race can control who is elected
President of the USA something is wrong that the
250 million non hispanic legal citizen votes count
for nothing! In other words the "Hispanic Vote" is
getting much more press than it deserves!