The Gary Williams Interview
Hello, everyone. This is Eric Prisbell. I am about to post a large portion of my Feb. 5 interview with Gary Williams. I carefully edited the actual interview transcript for a few reasons. A decent amount was off the record when both of us talk about three specific cases of alleged cheating, so I have not included some questions and answers. Some of the talk about three specific cases of alleged cheating was on the record, but I am unable to print it for legal concerns regarding unsubstantiated allegations. I refer to those players as Player A, Player B and Player C. I have also slightly edited a few of my questions only to give you guys more context into what we are talking about (like providing full names when I may have only said the first name). I think you’ll find this very interesting. Take some time off work and give it a good read. If you have any questions, feel free to email at firstname.lastname@example.org. On that note, here you go:
[We make some small talk while sitting down]
GW: This year we have one senior, we have signed two inside players. For 15 years, only Carolina and us have not finished last. So whatever they say about me as a recruiter, I’ll put my record up against anyone this decade. I must either be a good recruiter or a good coach. The idea of coaching at this level is to win, so whatever way you win, is okay. So if people say you are not a good recruiter, or if people say you are a good recruiter and not a good game coach, you know who they said that about. People are going to have opinions, which is fine. What I get measured on is winning. If 19 wins isn’t enough, I understand, people are dissatisfied. The two years we won 19, losing a pretty good player each of those years.
EP: But this is a complicated issue, and one aspect many people don’t realize is the changing face of AAU.
GW: Yeah, when would you say that really changed?
EP: Oh, I’ve seen a big change in the last five years.
GW: I’d say the last five or six. I’d say that was the dramatic change. With the change in the AAU has come incredible influence over the player, even players with parents there, the AAU in the last five years has gained a phenomenal foothold with a lot of families in terms of directing their kid where he winds up going to school.
EP: We have talked to more than 50 people. Everybody is on the record for this story except for a few people, including one person that I really respect, a guy who is intimately familiar your recruiting. (I read the quote about third-party aspects of recruiting)
GW: I have AAU guys I consider friends. See, AAU gets nailed wrongly every time someone says something is wrong in the summer time.
EP: Okay, let’s say summer league
GW: Yeah, there are a lot of AAU guys out there who do a phenomenal job, reach into their own pocket. So it bothers me that people blanket AAU guys with this thing. There are a lot of good people. I grew up with a lot of those people. In Camden, there was not AAU back then; there were people in the community who without those people they could not go to college. I have a background that is more extensive than most people in terms of the black community. I taught at an all-black high school at Woodrow Wilson in Camden for three years. I saw the streets. This is a long time ago, the handicaps they had to try to reach what an average white person could get to. Back then, there weren’t as many options for those kids. I saw a change in everything. I have always worked well with kids. I’ve done all that. This person saying that, I have friends who are AAU coaches. To say that I don’t have friends who are AAU coaches is not true. I don’t have time – I’m not going to pay somebody to go here. I have been offered players for payment.
EP: How often?
GW: This has got to be off the record. [OFF THE RECORD PORTION]
EP: How often in recent years?
GW: Probably not that direct. Now it is more subtle. There are a lot of different ways to get it done. Two kids around here [OFF THE RECORD]. But here is what’s ridiculous. Why do people ask me why we can’t get [them]?
EP: There are some people who say that you have been outworked.
GW: I have been at every recruiting period, I go where everybody goes. You see me there. I make every phone call I am allowed to make. I don’t break rules on phone calls. That’s the most broken rule in college basketball, excess phone calls. See, I’m a little different. And this job is a little different. I recruited at Boston College. I have recruited at Ohio State, you know, Jimmy Jackson. I know how to recruit. When I got the job here, it was historically right after Bob Wade received the sanctions for violating NCAA rules. I was told by President Kirwan that my job was to not violate NCAA rules. And I fulfilled that mission, in the same time winning a national championship. It gets back to: How many coaches during that time have won a national championship? These people who say I can’t recruit. I can recruit pretty good, I think. I do.
EP: People who know the Rudy Gay recruitment, know the background, know how it unfolded, all that, they say that that played a role in turning you off from the third-party aspect of recruiting.
GW: You keep recruiting. I’m just like everybody else. I watch, I see. You learn what goes on. What you are saying, third-party recruiting. In other words, making sure somebody gets taken care of. That’s what you are talking about. I’m not going to do it. I’m just not going to do it. Period. There is no argument there. If that makes me a bad recruiter, then I am a bad recruiter. If that one aspect makes me a bad recruiter. But in terms of working and watching games, making phone calls you are allowed to make, I do it.
EP: Why can’t you say on the record why you couldn’t get Rudy Gay?
GW: I think it is on the record.
EP: He told me he grew up loving Maryland and he celebrated the national title.
GW: Well, then why didn’t he come here? We offered him a scholarship. If all that is true, why didn’t he come here? What logic am I missing here? In other words, if he wanted to come here, and we recruited him and we offered him a scholarship, why didn’t he come here? It had to be for another reason, right?
EP: You’re saying it was for another reason aside from the fact that they scheduled the AAU exhibition game up in Hartford?
GW: I don’t know. I don’t know what the deciding moment was. You don’t a lot of times in recruiting, why a guy picks a school over another school. If Rudy Gay wanted to go to Maryland, and that was his school growing up, and we recruited, we made him feel wanted, he was a great player, he has got the scholarship, all he has to do is sign his name and he is here.
EP: Did that one bother you more than others?
GW: Yeah, it bothers you when you think it is a good fit. In other words, the way he played, he wasn’t a big muscle guy, but he was quick and had that size thing going for him. I like long players, like a [D.J.] Strawberry, like 6-4, get your hands on balls. When you press you need guys like that, guys who can really run, just play bigger than they are, but play as quick as the guards. That was Rudy Gay. I just thought in our system he would have been great. I recruit for our system. I try to get guys who can press.
EP: I have been thinking about this a lot. You may be winning now, but not like you did earlier this decade …
EP: To win like you used to win, it is still possible to do that without cheating?
GW: I think I am a realistic person. Next year, if everybody stays here, nobody goes in the pros, whatever, plus with the two guys coming in, I think we can be a top 25 team. I really do. This kid Jordan Williams is just starting to break onto the scene. He wasn’t considered “really” good but then he played for John Carroll, a very good coach, the kid really responded. He doesn’t play in a great high school league, but 53 points is a lot of points. And he has been over 40 a bunch of times. He is 6-10, 250, and he has got hands. You can throw him the ball. We have always been our best when we have had someone to throw the ball inside to, Joe Smith, Lonny Baxter, that’s been our best teams here.
EP: Well, is it more difficult in today’s landscape to win at an elite level without operating in the gray area in recruiting?
GW: I think it’s difficult for anyone to win. If defining winning is the national title or Final Four. You look at UCLA, they have been to three straight. You look at Florida, they have won two. Those guys, since we won it, have been the two dominant teams. Duke won it in 2001 when they beat us in the semis. Carolina won, what, 2005? It’s hard to stay there, it’s hard to get to the Final Four on a consistent basis. What we did, getting to the Sweet Sixteens pretty consistently, that was looked on as not doing too good. Now, that is looked at as pretty good if you got to that many Sweet Sixteens. It is harder now because there are more good teams. Schools that realize that if you put the majority of your money into men’s basketball, you can be successful because there are only 13 scholarships. A lot of schools have gone that way, like a Davidson, a Butler. They weren’t on the map eight years ago. Now they can play an ACC team. The other thing, they don’t get ground up in the Big East, they don’t get ground up during the season. They can play one game against anybody, they are that good. But if you ask them to play 16 games in the ACC, they might not be as good come March. The NCAA tournament has become the whole measure of your season. You beat the No. 1 team in the country last year, okay, that is a good win, but you didn’t make the NCAA tournament. The measure is now the NCAA tournament. That has gotten stronger. That’s why they should expand the tournament …
EP: But you know the number of talented players this area has produced, especially in recent years. You’re satisfied with the number you’ve gotten?
GW: No, you always want to get more. Once again, there are reasons. You are going to get beat sometimes in recruiting, I’d be the first to admit that. Another school does a better job, or he likes them better than you. You are going to lose kids. You are going to lose some kids because they want to go away. We have had parents tell us we have to get him out of the DC area because there is too much crime. Crime is used against us in recruiting. Len Bias is still used against us. There is a special every year on his anniversary, there are articles, all that is brought up again. That’s how recruiting works. Recruiting is a tough game. There is a lot of negative recruiting out there, in other words, if I don’t have a good team, I’m going to do everything I can to tear down that team that has a good team, that is recruiting this kid too. That happens all the time. A lot of people think that is okay. But there are kids being directed certain places because of agents, because of shoe companies. There are AAU programs that receive a tremendous amount of money from shoe companies.
EP: Some AAU coaches receive nearly $100,000 from shoe companies and then get additional donations from boosters from colleges to their nonprofit foundations.
GW: Yeah, and nobody is sure where that money is. If you are saying that I lose a kid because of that, you are right. You are right. I will lose a kid. See the other aspect is, college basketball generates a lot of money. Coaches make a lot of money. People see that. This is strictly a judgment people make, What’s wrong with us getting a piece of that pie? They connect 18,000 seats in Comcast Center with what’s wrong with a kid, a family getting some money. That’s strictly a moral judgment. I am not God. But I have my principles that I have always had as a coach. I don’t think that makes me wrong because I have my principles that I have always had in recruiting. Nobody has ever accused me of cheating in recruiting in my career. That’s a good thing, supposedly. But people turn that around and say he won’t play the game. You do it this way and you are criticized for not cheating. Basically that’s what is happening. You are criticized for not cheating. So if I am going to be criticized for something, if they want to criticize me for not cheating, that’s fine?
EP: How much of a price have you paid in recruiting for not cheating?
GW: I probably have with certain kids. Nineteen wins, because of the bar we set, is probably unacceptable to a lot of people. But we won the national championship. We set the bar there. Nineteen wins, with the teams we have beaten, would be acceptable at a lot of places.
EP: I’m just trying to get a sense on how much of losing local recruiting battles can be attributed to others cheating?
GW: I don’t know. That would be a hard thing to say. I don’t go out and accuse someone of taking money unless I know it’s a fact. I know that is going on. I can’t tell you if it is this specific kid who doesn’t go to Maryland and goes somewhere else because they don’t come back and tell me. I’m not here to play detective and go find out. I hear things like every other coach hears things. It’s part of the basketball thing.
EP: I know that, you know that, but readers aren’t aware of it. Can you speak to the recruit who [specific allegation told to reporter by college assistants]?
GW: I don’t know how you do that. There will be people who know that’s [Player A] and say that and then put me in a bad light. I have a job. Everyone says, well, you ought to turn everybody in. Yeah, sure. Each school they run their school the way they want to run it. They run their program the way they want to run it. If that is acceptable at those schools, that’s far beyond Gary Williams to …
EP: But these AAU programs, including DC Assault and others, are saying, ‘We don’t know you, you don’t come to the games’?
GW: I know Curtis Malone. So he can say whatever he wants about me. I know what Curtis Malone is about. But you won’t write it in there.
EP: Why won’t I?
GW: Will you?
EP: I’m not saying I will or won’t. I am trying to balance this thing.
GW: Yeah, but don’t tell me Curtis Malone has the right to say whether Gary Williams is a good recruiter or not. I don’t want to hear about Curtis Malone. I know what he is.
EP: You know Damon Handon from D.C. Assault, right? He said you didn’t come to one of their games this summer.
GW: That’s not true. I was out every day wherever they played in tournaments. I don’t know where they were specifically. I guarantee you I saw them play during the recruiting period. That’s wrong. That’s a lie. I saw DC Assault play in the fall, I saw them play last fall.
EP: How would you describe your relationship with that program?
GW: Whatever. We like to get really good players, without a doubt. I’d like to get players from DC Assault. DC Assault is a nationally known program. It’s almost like they are a school. They get recruited on a national basis. People from all over the country don’t go to a high school, they go to DC Assault to recruit players. That’s how that works.
EP: So Dalonte Hill was interested in the assistant job and …
GW: $450,000. That deal went down, that’s a fact. That’s in the newspapers. The guy could not get $450,000 here. We can’t pay it. How are we supposed to get Dalonte Hill to work here?
EP: How about for less than $450,000?
GW: That was the number that he was going to go where he could make a lot of money.
EP: Too much for this school?
GW: Why would he go to Kansas State? He was in Charlotte. How do you go from Charlotte to Kansas State?
GW: So you bring Beasley with you. To bring Beasley, it cost $450,000 for sure. We know that. We didn’t have $450,000. So we are not going to get Beasley. Would Beasley have gone to K-State without Dalonte there?
EP: [Bob] Huggins told me he would have gone wherever Dalonte went.
GW: Right. They came up with the top number, I assume.
EP: I know the amount. But knowing that, is it frustrating that you don’t have an opportunity to take advantage of Hill’s potential pipeline because you can’t afford $450,000? A disappointment?
GW: No, I try to get assistants here to help recruit, to help develop players. That is who I have hired. Throughout my career, starting at American U, Fran Dunphy, Ed Tapscott were my assistants … Why do guys get head coaching jobs from my staff? They are good enough to run major college programs. I try to hire the best coaches I can. Because I don’t hire Dalonte Hill, I don’t hire good assistants, is that the premise of this?
EP: I’m wondering if there is a frustration because if you could afford Hill, you get the pipeline to DC Assault. If you can’t, then you can’t get that pipeline?
GW: Yeah, you might. Yeah, you get criticized when you coach for a lot of things. Some of it is justified, some of it is not. You can criticize me for not getting a specific player, but in terms of getting players I think I have, in 20 years, the third most pros in the NBA behind North Carolina and Duke. So if you want to judge it on that, judge in on that. [More statistics to defend program]
EP: How much hands-on recruiting do you do, how much do you delegate to assistants?
GW: Same as everybody else.
EP: You don’t cheat, you don’t operate in a gray area, then why pursue a guy like Herb Pope or Terrence Jennings?
GW: We pursue him to the point where we know we can’t get him. I will try to recruit anybody. And then if you find out a thing about a guy, or you see which way the recruiting is going, then you drop off. But everyone does that, recruiting quite a few and then you narrow it down.
EP: But those recruits, because of their backgrounds, don’t seem like they are your type of guys that you have won with in the past.
GW: Probably not. They were talented players. But we get criticized for recruiting Jennings. Why? Why isn’t [Rick] Pitino criticized, why isn’t every school that recruited him criticized? Why are we criticized?
EP: Because you have not normally…
GW: But so what? I haven’t done anything wrong. I recruited him. The day he left the school in North Carolina to go to Notre Dame, we stopped recruiting him.
EP: But on one hand you say you don’t get involved in the murky AAU waters, and then..
GW: Right, I don’t.
EP: But then why?
GW: What did we do wrong with Terrence Jennings? Did we give him money? I am allowed to recruit any kid in the country until I find out something that is going on.
EP: But you know the reputation of some prep schools.
GW: Hey, you know, why should George Washington take two storefront kids? That’s a pretty good school.
EP: Same with them
GW: They are trying to win. We are trying to win. You know how kids are now, they float to different schools now.
EP: But you have always been above that in AAU. You don’t think you compromised anything pursuing a Pope, who may have hit his coach, or Jennings?
GW: We stopped recruiting him.
GW: Jennings. We stopped recruiting Pope.
EP: But Jennings committed here.
GW: His father said in the summer that he would like to go to Maryland. That was long before anything. He was going back to Mount Zion school. He never even visited when that took place.
EP: You would have recruited those two guys 10 years ago?
GW: Um, you recruit the best players you can. We thought we could get in with those guys. It didn’t work out. We didn’t get them.
EP: You were right there toward the end with Pope when New Mexico State swooped in?
GW: No, we stopped recruiting him long before that. Why are you judging the players I recruit? Why aren’t you judging the criminal record of the player at Wake Forest?
EP: If I were down there I would.
GW: What, I have to have a background check on every kid I recruit?
EP: No, but those are well-known players with well-known issues
GW: I know, but then I get criticized for not recruiting them. You didn’t get Terrence Jennings, I’m getting criticized for not getting Terrence Jennings.
EP: But what about Joe Alexander, who dreamed of playing here? A late bloomer who was under the radar.
GW: Well, you miss kids. This is not a perfect science.
EP: Scottie Reynolds?
GW: Scottie Reynolds committed to Oklahoma early.
EP: But Gary Hall [Reynolds’s former high school coach] says you weren’t in until late, when [Kelvin] Sampson got out of Oklahoma.
GW: We had [Greivis] Vasquez and [Eric] Hayes. We thought they were going to be our guards. You can’t just go get a guy if you have two players who are supposed to be four-year players for you. You recruit to fill in your team. The reasons we got these two coming in next year is that we are not big enough. We can’t get every kid. There are a lot of good players in this area. We have the player of the year in Baltimore, remember that?
EP: I understand [Sean] Mosley, but if you had just gotten one or two out of the deep pool of talent in this area, you probably don’t miss the tournament, right?
GW: You can’t say that. We recruited [Austin Freeman]. He chose not to come here. So don’t tell me I don’t recruit guys. We recruited those guys.
EP: You remember Deron Williams?
GW: Yeah, we recruited him. A lot of schools recruited him.
EP: Yeah, the mom said you viewed [John] Gilchrist as the priority at that position.
GW: Yeah, John Gilchrist was all-state in Virginia. He was considered one of the best guards ever to come out of the state of Virginia, along with [Allen] Iverson and whomever you want to list.
EP: Yeah, but her criticism was that Maryland stood out from the others because you were the only head coach who never talked to her or Deron.
GW: But I was recruiting Gilchrist very hard at the same time. I wanted Gilchrist. A lot of people thought Gilchrist – if you remember Williams, when he played in high school, he was fat. A lot of people thought he would be too heavy. I saw him play three different times. I didn’t talk to the mom. But I thought we could get Gilchrist, and we did. Gilchrist was a very good recruit. The way things work out, you don’t know that is going to happen. So we got Gilchrist that year. So am I a bad recruiter because we got John Gilchrist instead of Williams.
EP: No, but there is case after case after case of players you could have gotten, missed opportunities, missteps.
GW: I got Gilchrist. I could only take one point guard that year. We got the point guard we wanted to get that year. I didn’t know Williams was going to be that good. I don’t think many people did, from what he was in high school. He was good, he was solid. But John Gilchrist was right here. Easier to recruit. Okay, so I recruited him. So don’t criticize me for not talking to Williams.
EP: Josh Boone would have loved to come here.
GW: Who recruited Josh Boone besides Connecticut?
EP: Not many schools
GW: Josh Boone was kind of under the radar, and we didn’t get involved with Josh Boone.
EP: Do you regret that?
GW: Yeah, he is a good player.
EP: That’s what I’m getting at, are you satisfied with your recruiting over the past seven years?
GW: Yeah, I think we have worked hard over the past seven years. Things have changed over the past seven years in recruiting. I still believe if we didn’t have Strawberry go down and have McCray not go out, we would have been in the NCAAs.
EP: But people want to see you in recruiting. Your name matters in the recruiting scene.
GW: I am out there. I was out every day I could go out. I was at the DeMatha game the other night.
EP: I know
GW: I go out. I don’t advertise. I don’t know I should self-promote more or not. I’m in Orlando, Vegas, LA, following Jordan Williams around, wherever there are tournaments around. If they don’t see me, what am I supposed to do?
EP: Well, how about a Kendall Marshall, who comes on a visit here. And the father is upset because he said he just dealt with the assistant coaches.
GW: That is not my fault. I had to be somewhere. They call up the day before and say they want to come to campus and I am not here. It’s because I was doing Coaches vs. Cancer or whatever. Juts like every other coach, Calhoun, Boeheim, we are all at the same damn golf tournament. So I am the bad guy because I am not here and they call up the day before and say they want to come. Don’t go there, that is not right. I am here, I talk to kids, I do whatever I can. A guy calls up Friday and says he wants to come down Saturday, I might not be here because I might have to be at another obligations somewhere else.
EP: I wasn’t aware of that.
GW: Well, see, people can say whatever they want. Just make sure you have facts when they say it.
EP: You are satisfied with how involved you have been with recruits?
GW: Yes, I am. Very satisfied. The two we have coming in, that speaks for itself.
EP: Now you said they were top 50 guys [Jordan Williams and James Padgett]. There is no ranking that has them that high.
GW: Well, whatever, just give it a chance for the high school season to go. See where it is. All I know is what Jordan Williams is doing. James Padgett plays for a school that is really good. They won the NY state title last year. He had 17 and 10 against this guy who is supposed to be the best big man in the country, right? So, yeah, I think he is a good player. Whether he is top 50 or not, I don’t know. Every guy has had guys who weren’t ranked who turned out to be pretty good.
EP: You know Jeff Bowden, Baltimore Select?
GW: I know who he is.
EP: How about Craig Boothe, from Hoop Booth, a lower-level team
EP: Some people put the onus on [former assistant] Dave Dickerson, and said he didn’t evaluate the kids as well as he should
GW: That’s not fair. Not fair. How do they know?
EP: These people are coming out of the woodwork on the record, you can’t speak to that?
GW: I can’t speak to the fact that [Player B] was bought. And you know he was bought, and yet you give me s—t for not getting [him]. He was bought.
EP: Tell me how to get it and I will do the story
GW: You don’t have to do the story. But you should know that while you are writing this story. You know I should not be criticized for [him].
[OFF THE RECORD DIALOGUE]
EP: [Interview shifts to shoe companies]
GW: See, you’ll write critical all about my recruiting, but you don’t say anything about the [Player C] deal. Why don’t you say, that looks kind of strange that he goes …
EP: I’ve got to say more than that.
GW: Why? You’re going to make accusations of me based on what other people say.
EP: If I wanted to do a rip job, I wouldn’t be here. How do I get that point across about those other players who you may have lost because of cheating?
GW: I shouldn’t be criticized for those two [local kids who went out of state], but I am. Does that make me a bad recruiter? Okay.
EP: You’re saying that on the record?
GW: I can say I tried to recruit each of the, each one. See, some of these…[OFF THE RECORD]
EP: Well, you are talking about a major violation involving a donation to a nonprofit foundation?
GW: [OFF THE RECORD]
EP: Why would the coach do that?
GW: Right. The NCAA knows that information.
EP: How do you know?
GW: They know rumors.
EP: More than rumors, because I have been told the same from people who have had no contact with you. I have the tax forms, minus the donors.
GW: It’s history, we didn’t get those guys. But anyone who knows anything about college basketball has a pretty good idea of why they all went to where they went.
EP: I know, but people are on the record here. Others are saying you should be fired, that you can’t recruit.
GW: That’s okay. You should be fired. Anybody can say anything they want. I shouldn’t be fired based on my record. I am not here to recruit. I am here to win basketball games. Recruiting is part of my job. But you can’t say I should be fired when you look at my record. You can’t say that. Then all those guys who finished below me in the ACC should be fired, that haven’t won as many games as I have. Those people can’t say I should be fired. They are saying I should be fired because I didn’t get a certain recruit. Like the kid from Texas who is a great player for the Utah Jazz. I got John Gilchrist, didn’t get [Williams], but I should be fired because I didn’t get him. Fire me because of my record. If you want to fire me, fire me because of my record. Don’t fire me because I didn’t get a recruit that somebody thinks I should get. Don’t say I should be fired because I didn’t get a certain recruit. Fire me because of my record.
EP: You said making the tourney now means someone is a success.
GW: That is the world of today. But I had significant injuries two of those years, and you should write that. Let another team try to make it there with those injuries.
EP: I completely understand the players who may have gone elsewhere because of alleged cheating, but why couldn’t you get Boone or an Alexander, Reynolds, West
GW: Everything you said about Jennings was with West. He wasn’t recruited by anyone around here. You know that.
EP: But just one or two of those other guys
GW: True. But you know, we recruited who we recruited. Braxton [Dupree] was considered a very good player coming out of Calvert Hall. 6-9, 350.
EP: Sure, Travis Garrison another.
GW: McDonald’s all-american. Mike Jones, a McDonald’s All-American.
EP: The two McDonald’s All-Americans you got were Garrison and Jones. You have succeeded with guys more under the radar
GW: Yeah, and you don’t get every guy under the radar. You don’t get a Boone. He really came on when he went to U-Conn. I don’t think many people thought he could play there when he went to U-Conn. To his credit, he worked very hard. U-Conn. did a great job recruiting because they saw it in him and a lot of schools – not just Gary Williams – didn’t see it.
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