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Romney's "Faith in America" Speech: What Worked and What Didn't

Former Gov. Mitt Romney (R-Mass.) has just delivered his long-awaited speech on the role faith and religion should play in the American political process.

The Fix watched the speech live -- thank you C-Span 3! -- and herewith are a handful of our thoughts about what worked and what didn't.

If you caught the speech, feel free to offer your own take in the comments section. .

WHAT WORKED

Optics: Romney's campaign made sure the room was as friendly as possible for Romney; he was greeted with huge applause when he was introduced and interrupted by applause several times during the relatively short (under 30 minute) address. Having most of Romney's immediate family -- his wife as well as four of his five sons -- was also a nice touch. The group was mentioned by former President George H.W. Bush in his introduction of Romney and the group came on stage almost as soon as the governor had concluded his speech.

Delivery: Romney is a gifted politician and he showed it. He had clearly rehearsed the speech thoroughly as he was able to not simply read it off the TelePrompTer but actually invest it with emotion and inflection. Many in the political class take the delivering of speeches like this for granted but it is a VERY difficult task. Romney was up to it.

Straight Talk: Romney is well aware that many voters have questions about his position changes on several key issues including, most notably, abortion. He used today's speech to subtly push back on that narrative, pledging to stand by his religious beliefs no matter the impact on his candidacy. "Some believe that such a confession of my faith will sink my candidacy, Romney said."If they are right, so be it. But I think they underestimate the American people. Americans do not respect believers of convenience. Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs, even to gain the world." A very nice turn of phrase.

Common Ground: Romney spent very little time on the specifics of the Mormon faith (more on that below), focusing instead on what he shared in common with other religious people rather than what was different about his faith. "It is important to recognize that while differences in theology exist between the churches in America, we share a common creed of moral convictions," he said at one point. Romney's goal in this sort of rhetoric is to take the emphasis off of his personal faith and put it more broadly on his status as a person of faith in hopes that will be enough to satisfy skeptical voters.

Separation of Church and State: Romney went out of his way to address unspoken fears about whether he would be guided by the Church of Latter Day Saints if elected president. "Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions," he said. "Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin." To show it was not simply a rhetorical turn of phrase, Romney cited his time as governor of Massachusetts as evidence; "As governor, I tried to do the right as best I knew it, serving the law and answering to the Constitution," he said.

WHAT DIDN'T

Mormon?: A quick search through the text of Romney's speech -- 2,540 words -- just once did Romney utter the word "Mormon." ("I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it," he said.) If Romney is embracing rather than diminishing his faith, it seems as though he would mention it a time or two more, no?

Short on Specifics: Romney's aides have said for months that if he did give a speech addressing his faith, he would not under any circumstances get into the specifics of what he believes. And, he didn't. "There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines," Romney said. "To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith." The problem with that logic is that it leaves him open to the sort of under the radar whisper campaigns that have already begun to crop up in early states like Iowa and South Carolina. The less the average voter knows about the specific tenets of Mormonism, the more susceptible they will be to misleading and false allegations about what Romney believes.

Timing: Romney's speech comes right in the middle of the Huckabee surge both in Iowa and nationwide. Coverage of Mike Huckabee is nearing full immersion at the moment and it's uniquely possible that Romney's remarks will be eclipsed by Huck frenzy. Of course, that could work in Romney's favor as well; if he never really wanted to give this speech but felt compelled to do so, he can now answer every reporter's question about his Mormonism and its impact on the campaign by saying "That's old news and I've already addressed it."

By Chris Cillizza  |  December 6, 2007; 11:35 AM ET
Categories:  Eye on 2008  
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Comments

"Source: Colo. shooter ID'd, 'hated Christians'
24-year-old from 'very, very religious' family is suspected in both rampages "

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22174890/

tHIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FORCE RELIGON on a free people. Maybe not to this level. You get two chocies neither good.

1. A slave who follows but does not know why. Does as they're told. Not a real religous person. They act like one to get by

2. You get a person that goes the other way. They see their religous parents as reprsenting good. they are fooling into believing this. Where are they to go, if not to good. A child? They go to evil. They hate. They become skinheads and anarchists. They become drug addicts. They are the worse people insociety.

This is why it is better to let the children decide for themselves. Forcing religon on a free people is all bad. You got two roads, read above. Neither is a "christan" road.

That is why the mormons and catholics are cults.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 10, 2007 7:06 PM | Report abuse

"Romney's right about what state religion has done in Europe. "

So force children here to go then. Lie to them. Bully them. See how far it gives them and your church. A real religous person must come to it through understanding and choice. To force it on anyone accomplishes nothing, for either side. The forced person does not know what it means to be a "christian" "muslim", "jew", and in turn the church gets a clone that will "ACT" like a (blank). I can act like a dolphin. Doesn't make me one

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 10, 2007 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Romney's right about what state religion has done in Europe. I was in Kemi Finland in 1972 which had as a population approx. 20,000. There was one grand Lutheran Church that seated approximately 2,000. It was filled on Christmas and Easter. Outside that the weekly attendance was less than 50. Over 95% of the country is Lutheran and is a state religion which is supported by taxes, not tithing or freewill offerings. The Lutheran priests went on strike for more money and the Finnish legislature agreed to let them strike, but insisted that even on strike they still had to perform marriages and burials (can't have dead bodies stacked up and stinking). Our Founding Fathers were indeed long visioned by protecting church from state and state from church! Point was right on target Mr. Romney.

Posted by: rayfinn | December 10, 2007 1:09 AM | Report abuse

To William0020008 from Marina

I was sickened,outraged,and appalled at your comments. I could feel the hate and darkness. How dare you take someones beliefs and practices that they consider sacred and holy( eventhough most of the list was not even close to being accurate) and trample them under your feet, twisting the beliefs and making them appear sordid and depreaved. I appreciate nataleelews comments that if she wants to learn about someones beliefs she is not going to watch some video.(I might add, anti-mormon video). William, I challenge and plead with you to go to an authorized source if you want to know the truth about our beliefs. How about goings to a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints worship service, or ask a missionary or practicing member or read the "Book of Mormon"? You can then make a fair judgement and find out for yourself, rather than relying on what someone else is telling you.

Posted by: marinajean13 | December 9, 2007 11:10 AM | Report abuse

To William0020008

I was sickened,outraged,and appalled at your comments. I could feel the hate and darkness. How dare you take someones beliefs and practices that they consider sacred and holy( eventhough most of the list was not even close to being accurate) and trample them under your feet, twisting the beliefs and making them appear sordid and depreaved. I appreciate nataleelews comments that if she wants to learn about someones beliefs she is not going to watch some video.(I might add, anti-mormon video). William, I challenge and plead with you to go to an authorized source if you want to know the truth about our beliefs. How about goings to a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints worship service, or ask a missionary or practicing member or read the "Book of Mormon"? You can then make a fair judgement and find out for yourself, rather than relying on what someone else is telling you.

Posted by: marinajean13 | December 9, 2007 11:08 AM | Report abuse

By the way, I don't think that we are a cult. We are encouraged to do certain things and act in certain ways, but if we don't do those things, it's still fine. Not all mormons dress modestly. I know some mormons who swear. I've seen several R-rated movies. We are only encouraged, we are not forced. We choose to do what we do. And most mormans do not force their children to practice their same beliefs. My brother did not get baptized when he was younger. He made that choice himself and my parents did not stand in his way. Sure, we were sad and disappointed, but we still love him.

Posted by: jenean_skousen | December 8, 2007 1:37 AM | Report abuse

The reason that everyone keeps saying to look at lds.org is because we don't want to be blogging all day. If I had to TYPE my beliefs, it would take the entire day and way too much space. LDS.org is a much faster and easier way to share our beliefs. You should first go and at least look at the site. Then we can address individual questions. I'm perfectly happy to talk about certain issues, but I will not talk generally about my beliefs on a blog. It would just take way too much of my time.

Posted by: jenean_skousen | December 8, 2007 1:26 AM | Report abuse

Okay... so I watched the video and lo, was I suprised! No... I've been a student of anti mormon literature, I've read the God Makers; Mama, Mormonism, and Me; the Visitors, et al. The one thing I've found consistent in all of these is the deliberate lies they tell.

For instance, the supposed fact that Satan is the god of Mormons, and he is the narrator in the Mormon temples. This is a lie.

The story of Adam and Eve's fall is told, and the devil plays a roll in that. There is a person who acts the part of the devil, and he is constantly shown as a liar and a deceiver. Not until God appears and sets the record straight, do Adam and Eve understand they were deceived. When they are cast out, the devil again appears and attempts to deceive them, but Adam rejects him and professes his acceptance of God and the eventual coming of Christ.

This video is full of lies and deceit suggest to you that if you watch it, that you remember who is the father of lies.

The narrative is always the same, lies and half truths that are then twisted out of context.

The rituals are not portrayed accurately or in context, the scriptures are not quoted. These people fail to comment on the fact that the bible talks about baptism for the dead, it mentions the need for prophets, the need for things done by authority and ritual.

I won't go into detail here, I can give more, but the fact is simple... this little video was a dishonest representation of the LDS church. Again, who is the father of lies?

Joseph Smith never said he did more than Christ for the salvation of men. That's a lie.


Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 8:46 PM | Report abuse

Wow william. you succeded in scaring the heck out of me. Is it true no mormon church has a cross anywhere, yet they have the pentegram, goats head, and baal.

Thank you very much for this. It's worse than I thought. Thanks for showing me what time it really is.

http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.com/2007/04/mormons-and-illuminati.html

Now I get harry reid :)

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 7:41 PM | Report abuse

"This is why sometimes I'm forced to say liberals just don't have religion"

But I'm the intolerant one. I just said mormons are not christans. Which is worse? Which is broader?

I don't hate any group of people, other than evil fascists. Who does the right rally against? Anyone not exactly like them. I'm a white man. But I wasn;'t white enough for them. Now I see what I have been fighting my whole life. I see my enemy, and how do defeat them. Defend your country against threats foreign and dimestic. That's what they told us.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 6:56 PM | Report abuse

So if you would silence me, you should really want this guy silenced

rush "the fascist" rambo

"I'm really frightened that that's what some libs want to do, is destroy and eliminate, as best they can, the court system is their primary route, because they're insulated from elections there, to totally destroy the link to the roots that make this country what it is. Because there is a genuine fear, I said it yesterday, I'm going to say it again, because I firmly believe it. I think in a lot of liberals, a lot of leftists, there is a genuine fear of people who have faith in God. Liberals want people to have faith in them and their institutions, which is government, and they are frightened by the fact that people who have faith in something larger than themselves that can't be controlled, which is what liberalism must do in order to thrive. It must control people. Nobody is required to believe in God, but it does mean that for our society to survive, I'm going to say this again, the founding principles must be embraced by most of us, otherwise, who are we? If you accept the founding had a religious aspect, then you also have to accept what comes with it. If you don't want to accept that, then you want to deny. How about that? You're a founding denier. Yeah, those of us that don't buy the global warming hoax, we're called global warming deniers. Well, those of you who want to destroy or deny the truth about the founding of this nation are founding deniers.

So there's dissent in this country, there are different views, but most of us believe in God, and most of us believe in natural law. Most of us do. Look at the Passion of the Christ. Look how well that did and how inflamed the liberals were over it, particularly out in Hollywood? That is the American tradition. It is our founding. That most of us believe in God and natural law. "

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 6:40 PM | Report abuse

"RUSH: Stop the tape. This is why sometimes I'm forced to say liberals just don't have religion. He was quoting one of the Founders! The whole speech, she has missed the point. The whole speech was about the founding of the country and how important elements were in having it happen and, furthermore, keeping it together, the traditions, the institutions that have made this country great, as I love to say over and over again, and all she can focus on is the PC aspect, "It was so exclusive, I expected it to be far more inclusive. I thought he was excluding anybody who might be a doubter, an agnostic, an atheist, a free thinker, even a seeker," she says. Do these people have not one original thought? There must be one liberal who has an original thought, and they all pick up on it, and they all start echoing it. But he's quoting John Adams, for crying out loud. I don't know, Sally Quinn may not know who he is. Sure she knows; she's gotta know who he is. He was talking about the founding of the country and she thinks it's dangerous, a theocracy. They are scared to death of any religious people, folks, not just Mormons."

bUT i'M THE BAD GUY BECAUSE i OFFEND three people. How many million does this FASCIST offend?

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 6:35 PM | Report abuse

"I wish you well, and assure you, though it falls on deaf ears, that for all its problems, the world is still not as bad as you think it is. I hope you realize that some day, you'll be happier for it, and you can then direct your energies at fixing problems that really do exist, instead of chasing phantoms in the shadows.

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 05:29 PM
"

Chasing shadows? My blog identity yexits go get teh right wing propogandists off the air. once this happens many elderly will be free from their masters, to think for themselves. How many families does this save, and bring back together?

The war on terror is not being fought across the globe. It's being fought right here. The republcains have done more damage than the terrorists ever did. To beat the terrorists, we must not become then. Never again will people like me allow Christianity to be used in this way again. A religon of peace and love twisted to hate intolerance and murder.

I'm not chasing shadows. I got my enemies and this nations enemies on the run. Election time is near. Once these liars and propogandists for profit are gone, so am I. Until then I show all why they must be removed, to have american unity again. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. The street must run both ways.

Enjoy your irrelevance.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 5:39 PM | Report abuse

"I have better things to do with my time than waste it arguing with a person unwilling or incapable of questioning their assumptions."

Coming from a mormon, I'll that as a compliment. And a christian badge of honor.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 5:32 PM | Report abuse

JK:

You're a conspiracy nut. Are there problems with the government? Yup. Did they blow up the towers? NO. Come on, we can't even keep stains on a blue dress out of the news, do you really think that if there were any real evidence about all these conspiracies that anyone would be able to suppress it?

You're not living in reality. I wish I could convince you, but sadly, my experience is that when talking to persons such as yourself, no amount of facts, not logic, no matter how pure or quintessential, no matter how erudite, will convince you.

I have better things to do with my time than waste it arguing with a person unwilling or incapable of questioning their assumptions.

So, claim your victory, though I don't concede it, but that won't matter to you. I have real problems that need facing and fixing, not imaginary ones.

I wish you well, and assure you, though it falls on deaf ears, that for all its problems, the world is still not as bad as you think it is. I hope you realize that some day, you'll be happier for it, and you can then direct your energies at fixing problems that really do exist, instead of chasing phantoms in the shadows.

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 5:29 PM | Report abuse

Got that through. What abou this:

"So, let me point out some facts for you. You keep calling us fascists. Do you know what fascism is? Allow me to explain, or rather, quote: "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.""

"Now, when presented with the facts, I wonder if you'll stop calling us fascists, or if you will admit you were wrong. If you can't, maybe you can explain why we should bother listening to you? If you can't acknowledge facts, how can you claim to dispense any truth at all, or have a valid opinion? More to the point, why should we listen to you?

"

wHAT FACTS DO YOU PRESENT? your not fascists because I say so. your actions make you fascists, not my words. I got you. You've probably never seen any of this. Hiding in those nice safe caves. Shaking in fear because of the scary "beasts" outside. I got you though. If you care about the destruction of our great country, here you go:

"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, and religious attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to political and economic liberalism.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

"

"Terrorism in the modern sense[1] is violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians for political or other ideological goals.[2] Most definitions of terrorism include only those acts which are intended to create fear or "terror", are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants. Many definitions also include only acts of unlawful violence.

As a form of unconventional warfare, terrorism is sometimes used when attempting to force political change by convincing a government or population to agree to demands to avoid future harm or fear of harm, destabilizing an existing government, motivating a disgruntled population to join an uprising, escalating a conflict in the hopes of disrupting the status quo, expressing a grievance, or drawing attention to a cause.
"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories


Pentagon video from 9/11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsWZHKIg3Cs

Shall I go on? Do you even care what has befallen your country?

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 4:55 PM | Report abuse

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

"Fascist America, in 10 easy steps


From Hitler to Pinochet and beyond, history shows there are certain steps that any would-be dictator must take to destroy constitutional freedoms. And, argues Naomi Wolf, George Bush and his administration seem to be taking them all


1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy (terrorists, liberals, the media, actors, judges, war on christmas, war on religon, war on drugs)

2. Create a gulag(gitmo, secret cia prisons in eastern europe)

3. Develop a thug caste (dittoheads, catholics, cow folk, mormons, some ex-military)

4. Set up an internal surveillance system(patriot act, eye scans coming, camera phones everyone, cameras every where)

5. Harass citizens' groups( goes without saying)

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release

7. Target key individuals (see above)

8. Control the press (fox, fox pressure on msm (your unamerica, radio blackout, silence those you disagree)


9. Dissent equals treason(your with us or against us, un-american, traitor accusations against the left)

10. Suspend the rule of law( id on't recall, doj mia, fcc mia)

"

Shall I go on? Do you even care what has befallen your country?

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 4:54 PM | Report abuse

test

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 4:50 PM | Report abuse

Wow JK

when did I ever say anything was your fault? I just pointed out that you were wrong, and asked you to step back and challenge your beliefs. I'll take your response as a refusal to do so.

So, let me point out some facts for you. You keep calling us fascists. Do you know what fascism is? Allow me to explain, or rather, quote: "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."

www.dictionary.com

Republicans, and more to the point, conservatives are for less, not more government power and believe that the safest custodian for power is with the people... so, not fascism.

Conservatives believe that business should be as unregulated as possible to allow for growth and industry because that is what drives the economy and creates jobs and prosperity. So... not fascism.


The present administration is not a dictator with absolute power, no matter what you think... so, not facism.


The present administration has numerous and vocal critics who haven't been jailed or murdered in the middle of the night by SS troops, or anyone else for that matter... so, not fascism.


Racism is and will continue to be a problem in the US and the world because there will always be idiots who cannot look past a person's skin color or ethnicity, but no one is attempting genocide, and the freedoms and liberties enjoyed by minorities in the US are among the most liberal and generous in the history of the world... so, not fascism.

Now, when presented with the facts, I wonder if you'll stop calling us fascists, or if you will admit you were wrong. If you can't, maybe you can explain why we should bother listening to you? If you can't acknowledge facts, how can you claim to dispense any truth at all, or have a valid opinion? More to the point, why should we listen to you?

Jon

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 4:28 PM | Report abuse

"You're so anxious that we listen to you and question or beliefs. Will you do the same?

Jon

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 02:48 PM
"

Sure go ahead. you got anything other than attacks and pointing finger. Who is stopping you from posting your beleifs? Why would you supress mine?

Go ahead, by all means. Enlighen me. Or point the finger and blame. That is why the gop is done. You refuse to look at yourselvs. You are God's, in your eye's.

This is my problem with you false prophets. You pretend to know God's will and speak for God. All the while trampeling Jesus's teachings. that is why I say the "reliogus" right and mormons are not christians. Not because I say so. But by your actions.

I grow and change everyday. Do you clones? Or do you yearn to live in perpetual 1955? The past is over. The future is now. When driving you look at the next mountain not the one you just passed.

You fascists had your time. It's over now. Go enjoy the money you have stolen from your country and enjoy your irrelevance.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 3:22 PM | Report abuse

"JKrishnamurti

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm fairly astonished by people who are always trying to challenge my beliefs, and get me to question my assumptions, which I have no problem with, but those same individuals never challenge their own beliefs.

We're all guilty of thinking that we're better thinkers than we really are. Socrates had it right when he said the only thing that made him wiser than other men was that he knew how unwise he was.

Let me challenge you: Step away from your soap box for a moment and ask yourself, what if everything you believe is wrong? Then come to your ideas, challenge them, attack them as you have everyone else's opinion here, find fault with your views. Tear them down. An idea that cannot stand up to serious scrutiny isn't worthy of your affectation.

When you've done that, you will be better positioned to make your arguments. I'm not going to make any comments on anything you've said before, or offer any criticism except this.

You're so anxious that we listen to you and question or beliefs. Will you do the same?

Jon

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 02:48 PM "

YOUR RIGHT. eVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS MY FAULT. ONE ANONYMOUS POSTER. i AM SINGLE HANDEDLY holding mitt's nomination up. One liberals independant, because of commenting, is the problem. the gop is done. Now you know why. your inability to hold your own to any form of accountability. Much easier to blame those you hate. Freedom loving liberals. Rather than defending your positions point the finger. it's all the gop has left. you have no one to blame fo teh downfall of you party but yourselves. don't tim mcveigh to many americaans when you don;t get your way. when yoou fascists propogandists are off the air, when the gop is irrelevant for thirty years.

Remember you rlack of accountability and you rpointing fingers as conversation at that time. Enjoy your irrelevance.

If youare so wise, why do you peole call you selves dittoheads? If you are wise why submit to morons. If you are chirstians why submit to anyone not Jesus.

you are the mental migets. Your time has came and went. No go back in the closet and enjoy your irrelevacne.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 3:17 PM | Report abuse

JK:

You have lived up to your critics in only seeing what you want to see...I said "...one of the greatest..." not "the greatest." Please read a little more carefully in the future. I know that my comments overwhelmed your intellect.

Posted by: marcellomancini | December 7, 2007 2:49 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm fairly astonished by people who are always trying to challenge my beliefs, and get me to question my assumptions, which I have no problem with, but those same individuals never challenge their own beliefs.

We're all guilty of thinking that we're better thinkers than we really are. Socrates had it right when he said the only thing that made him wiser than other men was that he knew how unwise he was.

Let me challenge you: Step away from your soap box for a moment and ask yourself, what if everything you believe is wrong? Then come to your ideas, challenge them, attack them as you have everyone else's opinion here, find fault with your views. Tear them down. An idea that cannot stand up to serious scrutiny isn't worthy of your affectation.

When you've done that, you will be better positioned to make your arguments. I'm not going to make any comments on anything you've said before, or offer any criticism except this.

You're so anxious that we listen to you and question or beliefs. Will you do the same?

Jon

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 2:48 PM | Report abuse

" Knowing to do with the religon. If he wasn't running for president,that is
"

Nothing to do with, that is

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 2:44 PM | Report abuse

"Notwithstanding our Southern Evangelists, I am proud to be an American. Whether you support or not support Mr. Romney's candidacy, his "Faith in America" speech will go down as one of the greatest speeches of all time. He captured in 15 minutes, what this country has needed for the last 50 years: that religion is an important part of this great country.

Marcello Mancini

"

one mroe point on this. The great speech about religon was JFK, most people agree. Why? HE professed the seperation of church and state. He said his faith had nothing to do with politics, just his morals.

Romney's speech was on the other spectrum, IMO. He argued why religon SHOULD be in politics. Runs compleatly counter to JFK's speech. He argued for no seperation. That may or may not help him in the primaries. I hope he is the nominee.


AFTER THAT SPEECH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO BECOME PRESIDENT.

May get the nom, but he cannot now get elected. Not because he's a mormon. But because he preached the opposite of what JFK did. He argued that religon SHOULD be in politics. Greastest speech of all-time? you show where your loyalties lie. Mormon faith over country. Like the gop choosing party voer country, that is treason.

And that is also why mitt cannot be president. Now you know. Knowing to do with the religon. If he wasn't running for president,that is

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 2:42 PM | Report abuse

"I would like to see you evangelicals spend some time contemplating scriptures that say (and I paraphrase), "They without sin let them cast the first stone" or "Love one another". It does not say "Love one another" unless your Mormon or Muslim or gay or whatever. "

come on man. I love you people. I just like to call hypocrites and false prophets as such.

I do love you mormons. I just like you are lost. You follow imaginary rules, all the conservatives do. And you force those imagianry rules on a free people. If this was europe it would be fine. This is america. this is a free country. I'm trying to break your imaginary chains that kep you in your imaginary caves.

Read this to feel me:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave


Understand now, why I blog. It is for you. I don;t blog to preach to the converted (liberals). I blog for you. to help you. Not because I hate you. Because I love you people. We are all amerricans. Fear hate and intolerant enslaved you. Not liberals or terrorists. To release these things you must internalize. do you do that? Look at the blog. you stike out, you attack.

That is the problem. That is why I blog. I know people will not change here and now. I'm just hoping one word reaches one person. Later in life they may understand. We all paint our own small part in the grand painting of life. I can just do me.

But I don;t hate mormons or republcains. I feel you are misguided and lost. This is the only way I know to pull you in and make you think.


To show the gop a mirror. Broad characterizations. Attack attack attack. "I know you are but what am I". This is what the right wing fascist spin machine does. If your people would want me silenced or banned, why should I not want that recipracated? Better for all to be free. Not just republcains. Can we agree on that? Understand wher eI'm coming from now.

Freedom for all. that is what america is. not capitalism. Not False christianity. Freedom. What comes out of that freedom is what makes america great. To crush that freedom, as the gop and religous right are doing, is to cruch america. Who is the patriot now?

Before you call me un-american. I offered my life to the alter of american militarism, when I was a young misguided man. infantry 11B. I love my country. I love my countrymen. I love the young men that are being murdered so the republcains can line their pockets. What do you love? People like you? Small world

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 2:32 PM | Report abuse

Shame, shame, shame to my fellow conservatives, especially to those "Southern Evangelists" who profess to be Christians. We have given the liberal establishment so much fuel for their blogs and ultimate climb to the presidency of the United States. You continue to drive a political wedge in this country that is drawing the ire of not only the democrats but some in the Republican Party. Quite frankly, I'm fed up with all the crap (I would use the other word but this is a family newspaper) that you exude from your holier than thou pulpits. You are the first to judge the morale compass of our society but fail to look in the mirror at your own faults. My contempt for what you stand for grows stronger each day when I read your attacks on those individuals, Mitt Romney included, that may differ with your faith. Please spare me the rhetoric about what the bible says about standing up for your convictions. I know the bible as well. I would like to see you evangelicals spend some time contemplating scriptures that say (and I paraphrase), "They without sin let them cast the first stone" or "Love one another". It does not say "Love one another" unless your Mormon or Muslim or gay or whatever.

Mitt Romney finally succumbed to your pressures regarding his faith. I'm just flabbergasted that you evangelicals or anyone else has the audacity to expect him to speak about specifics of his faith. I'm sure your thoughts were, (in your best Jed Clampett voice) "Dug namit, if only he would have talked about his funky underwear, the whole world would've known just what wacko's those Mormons are." Every faith system has their own peculiarities so to expect someone to specifically address those in a political arena is asinine.

The way I see things, those evangelicals that fear a Mormon as president are afraid that it will somehow legitimize the Mormon faith. Heaven forbid that the US Mormon population grows from 2% to 3%. But I guess you are more worried about having to change your doctrine about the existence of hell since it will be frozen if a Mormon becomes president.

Notwithstanding our Southern Evangelists, I am proud to be an American. Whether you support or not support Mr. Romney's candidacy, his "Faith in America" speech will go down as one of the greatest speeches of all time. He captured in 15 minutes, what this country has needed for the last 50 years: that religion is an important part of this great country.

Marcello Mancini

Posted by: marcellomancini | December 7, 2007 2:08 PM | Report abuse

"Also, don't conflate Mormonism with Republicanism. It is not only inaccurate, but sloppy. Your concerns about authority are understandable, but your pointing of fingers and blaming all the country's problems on one or other group is not. There have been good leaders from both parties and poor leaders from both. There are also good Mormons, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Evangelicals, Agnostics, Secularists, "Independents," etc. as well as bad. Your black and white assignment of blame is simplistic and invites others to ignore the rest of your message, which has some validity.

Posted by: mnarich | December 7, 2007 01:46 PM

"

Now we're getting soewhere. I agree. So will you help me remove those that do this, as you would remove me from here? Fox News Bill oreilly malkin hannity rush. their lies discredits and smears have resulted in millions fo deaths. Why? for personal profit.

What do they do? Everything you just mentioned. Everything is liberals fault. they are the cause of all evil, teh secularists. They should be beaten tazed or arrested if the do not submit to teh gop and their criminality.

The left should be silenced, the right says, because they are "un-american". They are "traitors" because they don't follow a criminal president. They are godless because they are not republcains or go to republcain churches.

I agree with you. We are all americans and should unite as one country. Who is stopping that? Who waged verbal war on america? If you want to change the level of political dialogue in this country, I'm all with you.

But rather than blaming one anonymous poster, why not talk to the people with millions of clone follower "dittoheads". I only blog to get them off the air so we can unite as a nation. Who is keeping the lying propogandists for porfit on the air? Liebrals? Your angry and blame is misguided. Help me unite the country I will help you. Continue to be a driving force in dividing it, and I will keep holdign the mirror up. To show all independatn thinkers that the gop are hypocrites. They make the rules but think they are above. Rules for thee but not me.


You want to chagne the leval of political discourse, I'm with you. Start at the top. Get you masters off the air, I will never blog again. Deal?

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 2:06 PM | Report abuse

http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.com/2007/04/mormons-and-illuminati.html

SENT FROM WILLIAM YESTERDAY.

To choose a church's teachings over the teachigns of Jesus is nto christianity. Where did Jesus instructe us to do what mormons do? did he say look for a new religon in the future? Jew's believe Jesus is a great teacher not a God. Some Christians believe this. Some believe he is the son of God. either way his teachings are truth. but when did he validate mormons? Or better yet, what non-mormons validate mormonism as christanity? Are they men or God"s. Are they pretendign to know God's will?

Better to follow Jesus.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 1:58 PM | Report abuse

What makes you think I bow to the Church and not to God? What makes you think I only follow a few lines of scripture? I believe that the primary mission of my Church is to embrace all truth. I bow to the Truth, not to the Church, and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. These few verses were shared only to highlight those points on which we are most often criticized. I don't insist that others believe a literal interpretation of these Biblical verses in order to call themselves Christian, but others seem to expect me to deny their simplest, clearest meaning in order to be called a Christian. Why?

Also, don't conflate Mormonism with Republicanism. It is not only inaccurate, but sloppy. Your concerns about authority are understandable, but your pointing of fingers and blaming all the country's problems on one or other group is not. There have been good leaders from both parties and poor leaders from both. There are also good Mormons, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Evangelicals, Agnostics, Secularists, "Independents," etc. as well as bad. Your black and white assignment of blame is simplistic and invites others to ignore the rest of your message, which has some validity.

Posted by: mnarich | December 7, 2007 1:46 PM | Report abuse

Follow Jesus. Rather than using one or two lines to give your church validity. Why not use his life's teachigs? then you can call yourselves christans. And if you do. Then you are. An no number of anonymous posters could tell you differant.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 1:23 PM | Report abuse

"Mormons simply take these Biblical verses at their word. Clearly, in order for "Orthodox Christians" to deny the Christianity of Mormons, they also have to deny the Christianity of the Bible, and even of Christ himself. In order to avoid denying the Christianity of the Bible and of Christ, some "Orthodox Christians" use textual criticism to change the meaning of what is otherwise quite clear in the Bible. The downside of this approach is that the infallibility of the Bible is then brought into question, and the Mormon belief in the necessity of another witness, the Book of Mormon, is strengthened.


Posted by: mnarich | December 7, 2007 01:02 PM
"

Very good arguement.

I had a long post, it didn;t take. The gist

Follow Jesus. You will be fine. You don;'t need the church telling you how to act or dress or even talk. Follow Jesus. Let him mold you. Bricks and stones are just that. They do not equal God. without God what would your church be? Yet you still bow to the church. Why not bow to God?

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 1:20 PM | Report abuse

sleeping, rip van winkle. That is.

I put out the words to attack. Rebuplicans can't attack my points. You cannot combat truths with lies and propoganda. So I give you something to attack. If you can't attack words what would you say? Trying to keep the gop authoritarians invloved, It's not the liberals holding up progress and gutting the country. So I pull in authoritarian fascists. Maybe I get break your chains and get you to think for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Can I offer a comment or two???

Whether you like Mitt Romney or not will never be settled in the court or public opinion, or in the blog-o-sphere. I would challenge any person, liberal or conservative, republician or democrat, Mormon supporter or Mormon critic, etc. to walk in Mitt's footsteps. He has made mistakes and is learning from them. At the end of the day, he will either sink or swim. At least he isn't afraid to try. I admire his courage. Few politicians, or even people in general, are willing to stand up for what they believe even if it costs them major personal $$$ and a lifetime of ridicule from their detractors.

Posted by: psfielding | December 7, 2007 1:08 PM | Report abuse

I have a job. I'm working now. this is my hobby :).

I know republcains only pay republcains. Again, my problem with your people. A cult. The mormon cult is just an extension of the republcian cult. Nothing more. Just a wing. you didn;t know that? Man, you've been lied to your whole life, haven't you.

Not only will I not be a republcain. your party is done for 30 years. Where else do you keep your job the worse you do? what has the gop done right, other than steal the countries surplus and transfer it to your cult? The gop has done nothign right. It has trampled everything this country was founded on. Were you stealing rip van winkle style, though the 06 elections? The american people rejected fascism. Have things imporved since 06, or worsened? Enjoy your irrelevance.

Obama 08

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 1:05 PM | Report abuse

If you want to know, here is the primary reason Mormons are rejected by other Christians. I found this on an Evangelical website:

"Mormonism is not faithfully or soundly Christian because it deviates from historic, biblical standards of orthodox Christianity. For example, Mormonism teaches that God the Father is an exalted Man, that Jesus, angels, and human beings were all the literal spirit offspring of our 'heavenly Father and Mother,' and that the ultimate goal of the Christian life is to become exalted to Godhood ourselves."

Yet the Bible says:

"Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." (Psalms 82:6)

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10: 33-34)

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:16-17).

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Revelation 3: 21)

Mormons simply take these Biblical verses at their word. Clearly, in order for "Orthodox Christians" to deny the Christianity of Mormons, they also have to deny the Christianity of the Bible, and even of Christ himself. In order to avoid denying the Christianity of the Bible and of Christ, some "Orthodox Christians" use textual criticism to change the meaning of what is otherwise quite clear in the Bible. The downside of this approach is that the infallibility of the Bible is then brought into question, and the Mormon belief in the necessity of another witness, the Book of Mormon, is strengthened.

Posted by: mnarich | December 7, 2007 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Look, I really do need to go, but let's not get all hot under the collar.

I'm not calling you a ist. I'm just asking you to learn to spell.

If you could also follow some basic grammatical rules, and try to make a little more sense, you too may be able to find a job one day. Once that happens, you can see the light and become a Republican, too!

Now, won't that be nice?

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:56 PM | Report abuse

"Spout on, J.

I've got to go, anyway. Rush is on!

:-)

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:45 PM
"

right. Brain ... activated. Time to learn what I am angry about today. Your master doesn;'t have much longer left, as does Fox. Enjoy your lying traitor propogandists for profit, while you can. Taking millions to lie to the elderly for profit.

We are a self government. in a self govenrment we need all the real news we can get. We need none of the people misleading the voting public for pofit. You masters are done. What will you do without your brains? How will you think for yourself? We will find out soon enough. People are working to free you from your prison, don't fret.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 12:55 PM | Report abuse

"Answer truthfully, J:

Are you even inside the USA? Are you even a citizen?

Your skills with the language would say no.
"

What is the implacation. Since I do not sound like the clones you are always around I am a terrorist? Now we are getting somewhere?

I am agaisnt that whole "You are like me because you talk act dress and look like me" thing. now you see why people are having a problem with mitt. I just held a mirror up for others to see.

I am an america. Born here, san jose ca. White male. Public school. Should I go on? Are you convinced I'm not a terroist living in the middle east?

As anyone that comes here regularl knows. I rally against authoritarians. Agaisnt people that tell you how you should act. i draw you out my misspellng words, as that means nothing. only the word matters. In the process of understanding what I'm saying, you clones are thinking for yourself for a change. This runs counter to your normal thought process of being told what to say how to act and how to be a good (mormon,chiristan, american) or what have you.

you show your face. Anyone not like you , is not an american. now you know why the gop is done, and mitt has not chance. As a mormon has no chance until you people realize that america is freedom for all. Not just for certain individuals you deem worthy.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Spout on, J.

I've got to go, anyway. Rush is on!

:-)

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:45 PM | Report abuse

"Romney and Huckabee's religious intolerance
Nonbelievers have long been more tolerant of believers in office than the other way around

By Joe Conason
"

http://www.salon.com/index.html

The street must run both ways. This is not elementary school. This is america land of the free. Not just free for you.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Answer truthfully, J:

Are you even inside the USA? Are you even a citizen?

Your skills with the language would say no.

Not that I care; I believe in free speech wherever you are, whoever you are.

Its just that repetetive stupidity grates on the ears a little, particularly when its stupidity poorly worded and grammared.

(I made that word up, by the way).

And, trying to follow the flow of the blog with your nonsensical mutterings interspersed is a little difficult.

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:38 PM | Report abuse

"Isn't there a moderator or somebody who can at least limit the amount of crap that idiots like

JKrishnamurti

can clog up the blog with?

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:30 PM
"

Who else is blogging here today. now you see why the gop is done. Freedom for you slavery for everyone else. Welcome to my world :). I tried blogging on republcain sites. You free speech yellers silenced me in one day. Why did the dixie chicks get banned from the radio for voicing their opinion?

Now you see why I do wha tI do. Mormons should not be persecuted against. But liberals should be. "Be as me or do not be". You show your face, gop

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 12:33 PM | Report abuse

I referred to other websites because many if not most of the negative comments about Mormonism on this blog are getting very old. LDS beliefs have been articulated, questions have been answered, no need to retype them here when you can access them with a click of your mouse. That said, I'm participating in two online discussions where I give my own two cents about questions regarding Mormonism. I don't need three.

I agree that you can be connected to Jesus without a church, under a tree, or in a small group of two or three. I believe that Jesus responds to anyone who reaches out to him. But if Jesus has established a church here on earth, why not join it? If one believes that Jesus heads their church it would seem odd to say, "I love you Jesus, but I'd rather not attend your church."

Yes you can worship Jesus as an individual, as a group, as a Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical. Contrary to popular opinion you can also worship Jesus as a Mormon. Some Christians teach that you are saved through the grace of God by accepting Jesus as your Savior, even if you subsequently sin--unless you are a Mormon, then you have to leave your church in order to be saved, and if you remain a Mormon after accepting Jesus, too bad, you're still damned.

Posted by: mnarich | December 7, 2007 12:32 PM | Report abuse

"But if somebody says, "I'm a Christian," how can somebody else look at him and say, "No you're not. I'm a Christian [or, I know Christians], and you're just not a Christian.""

I feel you. A christian is so through words and actions. I am making a personal statement based on dozens of mormons I've known. I am one man, I speak for no one but myself. For mitt to win you would need to convince people just like me, like hillary does. What does hillary do? Cry and whine the big boys are beating up on her. That is what the mormons here are doing. To win you must be strong. To represent me, you must tell me why you should represent me. But to attack me and blame me. Like the with evancelicals, that's no way to get the vote.

Conversation is the way to come to understanding. I don't know very much about mormons. I set you guys up to shoot me down. you didn;t so I have to assume everything "they" say about you is true.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Isn't there a moderator or somebody who can at least limit the amount of crap that idiots like

JKrishnamurti

can clog up the blog with?

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:30 PM | Report abuse

i love you mormons. Really I do. No disrespect. I just think your a republcain cult. 90% republcain. I've seen the mormon plan first hand. I've dated a mormon girl. Mormonism is perfect for republcains. I wish you all were mormons. you get to profess rules and laws, but do not have to live by them. Perfect for republicans.

Look at how he ran the olymipics though. The man MUST be president. He held the olympics. the gop is done. time to get back to real business. If we can stop their sabotage that is. The terroists are going to be very angry when the gop has zero power in this country,a nd will not move us towards religous fundementalism, like them.

I hear the gop wishing america gets attacked daily. If the dem's win, the right will allow attacks on this country. Let's see how far that's get's then, once america realizes we are dealing with religous ascism here. If Bush ever holds the elcetion that is. I wouldn't put it past the republcains. Things have gotten far worse for them since 06.

I pray they do not tim mcveigh americans. I fear for my sons. Either way this is america. Where we fight and die for freedom. If that is the path for my sons, it is God's will. That is why I fight the gop now. For my children. So they don't have to. Marginalze the terrorist gop and show them for what they are.

Mitt helped with that yesterday. He may get the nom. but a few words killed his chances at the big ticket.

"Freedom requires religon," and vice versa. We see how far that gets him in the general amougst free people. As oppose to dittoheads slaves and clones.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 12:26 PM | Report abuse

More on the "Mormon's aren't Christians" thing:

I can understand if somebody says, "I'm a banana," and he's not a banana, so somebody else calls him on it and says, "No you're not. I'm looking right at you, and you're not a banana. I know what bananas look like, and you're not one." That makes sense, right?

But if somebody says, "I'm a Christian," how can somebody else look at him and say, "No you're not. I'm a Christian [or, I know Christians], and you're just not a Christian."

Whether a Christian really is or not is really something deep down inside, isn't it? I mean, there might be some outward evidence as to the truth or falsehood of the statement, but really, by definition, Christianity being a belief in the divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ, is hard to see in someone just by looking at them, right? Its a personal thing, a belief.

Unlike a banana, which you can easily identify just by looking at.

So, doesn't it make sense that, in matters of belief and conviction, we kind of have to take people's words for it? If Mormons, as a group, say, "Hey, we're Christians!" shouldn't we just sort of accept that at face value?

Honestly, what motivation could Mormons have to say they're Christians if they're really not. What is the motivation (if not competetive fear) for "true Christians" to exclude the Mormons who just want to be in the club?

It seems to me that a certain group of Christians has attempted to redefine and refine the word so that it more closely approximates their particular brand of Christ-worship or belief, in order to then be able to point their fingers and say, "Neener neener neener! You're not Christians!"

And that's what seems so incredibly immature to me.

I doubt Mormons would take exception to people saying they aren't "Evangelical Christians," or that they aren't "Bible-only Christians," or that their doctrines are "different from mainstream Christianity." But to say they aren't Christians? Come on, grow up a little.

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:23 PM | Report abuse

Why are all the mormons pointing to lds.org? Are you avatars? Can you speak for yourselves? Are you scared of misrepresenting what you believe? think on that for a moment. Do you really believe or are part of a "fellowship". is it the fellowship you are part of then? Is it the fellowship you worship, or Jesus? Are you a mormon, connected to Jesus, without the Church? If not, why not?

Why do you need to label yourself as mormon to love Jesus and live by his teachings? "Where two or more people gather in my name, I'll be with them."

I can worship Jesus under a tree. Why do you need a church?

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 12:13 PM | Report abuse

Democrat Mormons. I know many and I live in what is probably the most Republican county in Utah. My office at Brigham Young University is about half democrat. One of my closest colleagues is a devout Muslim from Palestine. She recently facilitated a visit from three Iraqis to campus, a Kurd, a Sunni, and a Shiite. They were impressed with how well Mormons take care of each other and also those who do not belong to our faith. My colleague told them that her Mormon neighbors care for her as if she were one of them. She said that they could learn a lot from us about living together in peace. From conversations with my colleague I know there is also much we can learn from them. When I want to know something about Islam I ask her, not someone who hates Islam out of ignorance. Also, my dissertation advisor at Brigham Young University is a devout Evangelical, and holds leadership positions at a Mormon University. Under his direction I am working on a paper regarding the importance of including both theism and secularism in the national dialogue. When you consider Mormonism world-wide, many of us are living the pluralism that so many others only talk about. If you want to know about Mormonism, don't ask those who hate us. Go to lds.org, or for some of the more "obscure" questions go to fairlds.org.

Posted by: mnarich | December 7, 2007 12:04 PM | Report abuse

"I don't know which it is, but I do know that listening to fools or liars is never profitable.

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 12:27 AM
"

Show them where they are wrong then. You are playing in to what is being said here.

"I think Harlan Elison said it best, "You're not entitled to an opinion, you're entitled to an INFORMED opinion.""

Therein lies the problem. Who is doing the informing? You? Mormons? Republcains? America is freedom for all. Not just the republcain or mormon cult. Now when you strat talking about a man that is to represent all americans, then you peopl have a problem. Just a fact. The gop is done. The sooner you realize your time is over and wa used poorly, the sooner we can start to move forward.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Why would Mitt Romney need to explain the specifics of his religion? He's not a spokesperson for his faith. He wants to be president of the United States. That has nothing to do with his religion other than the fact that his religion has shaped him into the great candidate that he is. He shouldn't have had to say anything about his religion, but others made it an issue, so he felt the need to lay it to rest. He only mentioned "mormon" once because his speech wasn't about his religion, it was about the fact that a test of religion is not and should not be required to become president of a country where freedom of religion (or freedom from religion if that is the choice) is valued. Our society has come so far in the area of tolerance. It is rarely socially acceptable to criticize and degrade a group of people in this country, but mormonism is one that many people have no problem openly insulting (and behind the backs of their mormon friends and neighbors whom they say are very good people.) Honestly, think about it. What is so scary about Mitt Romney? What do you think his mormonism is going to make him do that will hurt the country? There are many successful and powerful people in this country who manage businesses and organizations without their religion being an issue. If you sincerely want to know the answers to the questions that you have about the mormon religion, don't you think the mormon church would be the best place to find those answers? Do you really think that the mormon church tells everyone that it believes one thing and then teaches something completely different? That's absurd. A religion that expects so much of it's members, would not have many followers (even converts from other religions) if as soon as people got into it, they found something completely different than what they expected. It is a religion that is very open with it's beliefs. So open that it has developed a website specifically designed to answer questions for those outside of the church who have questions about the church's doctrine. Don't you think that would be the best source of information about the specifics of mormonism? Forget Mitt Romney's speech, go to www.mormon.org. If you're looking for something exciting and intriguing like celestial sex or spirit babies, etc., you're not going to find it at mormon.org because those are topics that anti-mormons create to make the mormon church sound weird and out of touch with reality. On Sundays while some churches are teaching their members that mormonism is a cult and to completely avoid it, members of mormon churches are spending their time studying the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Posted by: beabjr | December 7, 2007 11:52 AM | Report abuse

"sperrico...you are so sadly mistaken. Where do you think your rights come from? Evolution? Or have they just existed since the dawn of man? "

No. They come from a document. Research how america really came to be. God enabled it through years, and yes he enabled it. But men made the constitution, perhaps with God's guidence. Read up on the age of enlightenment. Payne. French revolution. Locke.

That is were our freedoms come from. The age of enlightenment. And My german ancestors. :) Justkidding. Since groups are taking credit for founding america, I don't want to leave out my ancestors. Read about the age of enlightenment. How many of those genius's are from scadanavia? Ho bed of genius's. HE HE HE.

The fascists had to have hitler just to put a black mark on the german people. Hold us down before we are to free. :) Frickin republicans. Half joke, half truth.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 11:51 AM | Report abuse

"Even a cursory reading of the writings of the founders makes this evident, but like children who cover their ears and chant inane noises to drown out what they don't want to hear, the secular progressives talk over and around the facts, ignoring them completely. It's refreshing to hear a candidate speak like one of the founding fathers, openly about faith, and not separating the nation from God."

And now you know why the gop is done. Not seperating the nation from God? The founders did that for us. BEcause they were religous changes nothing. What if they happened to be muslim? Buddists? Atheists? What they were is of no conequnece. The laws they made ensued the seperation, to everyone but rush and o'reilly dittoheads, like our buddy here. By his word usage.

to infuse religon into politics cheapens both. I don't want my religon used to raise dollars for republcians who will mislead the flock. Think aobut it from a christians point of view that is not a republvain. A christan that does not want to murder people, hurt sick children, not not treat his neighbors like himself. You know A REAL CHRISTIAN.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 11:44 AM | Report abuse

"Celestial Sex. The definition of sex is the procreative power of a species to create offspring. How did God create us, his children, by blowing bubbles? Making a wish and blowing out candles? Easy bake oven?"

And now you see my problem. They pretend to know the will of God. You cannot pass off that which no one knows and call it truth.

Again, do your thing mormons. Worship what and how you like. But you do not represent me, or christianity, IMO. Not through teachings or labels, but by words and actions. Speaking from my own personal experiance.


"We Become Gods. Christ commanded us to be perfect, even as God is perfect. He also told those who accused him of blasphemy: "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

"Baptism For The Dead. - Paul, Corinthians 15:29 - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?""

One line, a religous teachings does not make. From my prespective it's like george bush and the republcains, or lawyers. They lay out their doctrine or goals. then they look for loop holes to valdfiy what they have created.

God created christianity. Judism. you can debate islam.

you know God is involved through the good works of his people. HArd for me to explain. In my opinon Men created mormonism. Like a club, or cult. "If your not with us your against us". But that is just one man's opinion. Anyone that would bow before anyother man, and give that man all he/she is not a christian imo. In terms of religon. It's an individual journey. When money and politics get involved it is no longer religon. It is then business.

you peopole do, do a lot of good work. So bless you.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 11:36 AM | Report abuse

"I hope people are smart enough to realize I do not believe everything I write is truth. But how is that differant than any other source they get their information from"

Meaning all the "news" I pass on is from somone else. I'm not a reporting in the feild, so I rely on others. Sometimes they lie.

Nothing to do with You eugene. Talking about these right wingers here. :) The ones that only see the source not the word. Similar to our problem. The "chrsitian" right and the catholics no longer see the word of Jesus. Like the mormons, they all now follow men. They through GOd under the bus long ago. But we're still here Eugene. We will not let the false prophets NOT be called out, while misrepresenting our religon for personal or political gain.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 11:19 AM | Report abuse

"JKrishnamurti,


I enjoy reading your post. You say you, too, are a Christian Socialist. Respond to my post here. I'd like to develop a correspondence, if that's not too forward for blogs. Sorry.
P.S. Let the universe handle the details.

Eugene Debs '08

Posted by: legan00 | December 6, 2007 10:19 PM
"

Likewise Eugene.

I hope people are smart enough to realize I do not believe everything I write is truth. But how is that differant than any other source they get their information from. Growth through conversation is what matters, here. Those that would sabotage or hamper than change and growth show their face. An attack is only an attack if they take offense to it. I hope these people realize this. I don't believe the fascists like BIll O'Reilyl believe half the things they say. It's impossible. What they try to do is move the country a few notches closer than them. They can't possibly think they will get everything they want. I am the same way. Altough I don't lie :). I try and do my small part to counter right wing fascist machine.


This is the best and only way to pull infomation out. Maybe we can find a common ground and reunite this country. We must show the left, the people they hate (and rightfully so)are their brothers and sisters, countrymen. We must show the right many things. But the most of which, we need to hold the mirror up to them so they can see how they are being viewed. They have been mislead and lied to for many many years. Much of their world is built with walls of lies and propoganda. "That's the way the world works". No. That's the way the republcian world works.

This is america. We all live in our own worlds. That is freedom. Not,as the republcains believe, to be kings of our own lands. How about humans in our own universes? That is the beauty of God.

I can be reached by email at:

Rufus11_33@hotmail.com.

Email me anytime Eugene. I'd love to get your views on how we can move this country forward. There is so few of us lone wolf's :).

God Bless. I look forward to hearing from you.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 7, 2007 11:13 AM | Report abuse

"One question that every candidate should be asked is whether his allegiance, when he becomes President, is to the Bible or to the Constitution."

Do these two have to be mutually exclusive? The Founding Fathers used the lessons they had learned from reading the classics and the Bible when they wrote the Constitution. Reading the Bible gives one a better understanding of the Constitution, and vice versa. The two are not in conflict with each other.

Romney was right in not going into detail of his beliefs in his speech. He was right when he said that would constitute the very test of religion that the Founding Fathers disapproved of for choosing a president. If you really, truly want to know what the Mormons believe, but don't want to be confused by all the uninformed or misinformed drivel out there, go to the source. Go to www.mormon.com or www.lds.org.

Posted by: kelleybirrelli | December 7, 2007 11:08 AM | Report abuse

I am disappointed in many of the comments above. The spelling, grammer, and general language only show their own ignorance.

If you want to know what Mitt Romney is about, look at his record as governor or his record as the head of the 2002 Olympics. In the latter, he turned around a failing organization and ended up financially in the black. That takes real leadership!

If you are concerned about whether he would be a good president, look at his convictions. He refuses to waiver on his belief in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Do you really want someone to lead our country who would change with the political wind?

I used to live in Oregon and stood firmly behind Governor John Kitzhaber even though he was a Democrat and I a Republican. Why? Because I always knew where he stood. I did not always agree with him, but I knew where he stood and respected that. Mitt Romney is that way. This speech made that even more clear to me.

Many base their lack of support for Romney because they fear his religion. Change that fear into knowledge. Go to www.lds.org or www.mormon.com and read what Mormons believe. A true Mormon (and I believe Mitt Romney is a true Mormon) believe in religious tolerance and loyalty to the government (see articles of faith 11, 12 and 13 http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html).

Let's find and vote for a President with real leadership skills and true conviction.

Posted by: ebay_dave_57 | December 7, 2007 10:21 AM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti, made a comment about how there are no democrat mormons, This statments is utterly false. Harry Mason Reid, the senetor, is a mormon and a democrat. The President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a democrat. I am really dissapointed how so many people make broad statements about "mormons" or "Evangelicals" this is blind intolerance. How long before those same people will be making comments about "blacks". You preach tolerance while endorsing bigotry.

Posted by: obsoletedream | December 7, 2007 9:45 AM | Report abuse

I just moved to Europe this summer after living all my life in Arizona. Romney is correct, The churches are empty. I have never been so shocked in my life. My family is the only one in the neighborhood who goes to church on Sunday. The other children ask why my kids have on dresses and where they are going. We tell them to church and they ask "why"? The churches are so poorly attened that in one church building, 6 different religious faiths will meet because church is so poorly attended they can all share one church. I miss my America and to those who actually know what religion means. I wish that we could listen more to Romneys words and be more tollerent. We all believe something different then are neighbor but that doesn't make our neighbor bad. We need to be tollerent of each other. Be greatful that we can believe different things. That we do have that freedom in America. I think this was a good speach that Mitt gave. Thanks Mitt.

Posted by: shawntel_e | December 7, 2007 9:11 AM | Report abuse

williamoo20008 said mormons beleive in:
"Celestial Sex
Baptism For The Dead
Communicating With Dead
Magic Clothing
Blood Attonement
We Become Gods
Multiple Wives
Blood Oaths
Spirit Babies
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals
Living Profits Today"

1,Celestial Sex. Where do you get your facts from? The mormon faith has NEVER put out doctrine about that. But on a side note, eternity spent in celibacy sounds like Hell to me :p


2.Baptism For The Dead. Whats the big deal? The early Christian church (you know, the one established by Christ before all the apostles were killed off...) practised baptism by proxy. They didn't dig up graves and baptise dead people. The were baptized on behalf of their loved ones who had never had the chance while alive.

3. Communicating With Dead. Again, where do you get your facts from? You don't beleive in guardian angels, or loved ones long dead watching over you?

4. Magic Clothing. Garments aren't magic. They're a reminder of sacred covenants you've made with God. God forbid we should remember him once in awhile.

5. Blood Atonement. You mean...the atonement of Christ? What a crazy concept, obviously beleived by only the craziest of zealouts. Oh yeah, and 1.5 billion Christians.

6. We Become Gods. Are you saying the concept of eternal prgression is more disturbing than the concept of strumming a harp in heaven for the rest of eternity?

7.Multiple Wives. Only a tiiiny portion of the early church was commanded to take multiple wives. This was after the mormons began to be chased down and murdered. Many of those marriages were for the financial protection of a woman who had lost her husband and many of those marriages were not consummated. You'll notice in the bible plural marriage was a practice from time to time. Get over it already.
8. Blood Oaths. Again, where do you get your information? Not from lds.org, that's for sure.

9. Spirit Babies. You mean...the preexistence? I don't know what you mean. You're so vague. And touchy. Oh, and misled.

10.Cult Practices And Secret Rituals. Legally, the mormon church is a church, not a cult. So no, the mormons cannot, in fact, take part in cult practices. And as for secret rituals, they have temples where they take care of sacred things. Not secret things.
11. Living Profits Today. I know, right? The idea of God still caring about His children enough to guide them through a prophet is absolutely preposterous.

Posted by: link1085 | December 7, 2007 8:57 AM | Report abuse

Mitt Romney does not need to, expound upon his faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; other than to say that he is active in his faith.

For anyone that has any question about what it means to be active in the LDS church, those answers are almost hunting you down. Maybe the next time those guys in white shirts and ties with black badges knock on your door ask them all of your questions. they have the answers. If they don't have the answers with them they certainly have the rescources to get back to you in a couple days with the offical standing of the LDS faith.

Also if you prefur to not speak to someone in person you can use sources such as www.lds.org, and www.mormon.org. These two sites should be able to answer almost any question you may have about this church. The answers are very easy to find if you really are searching for what Mormons believe maybe you should ask a Mormon or Read their official documents. If you were trying to learn about how to grow oranges, would you ask an orange farmer or an apple farmer? There are a lot of sites produced by non-mormons that claim to have the "truth" about mormons, but how many of them have experienced the things they are talking about? There are also a lot of sites by former active members of the mormon faith that simply have a grudge against it and want to do everything in their power to disscredit it. It only makes sence to go to the source, then you can be the judge of which peices are truth and which peices are false. Or maybe you are afraid you'll be brainwashed? haha. I for one think that all of you have the ability to sort through the facts and come to your own conclusions who is right and who is wrong.

Posted by: sphinxqqg | December 7, 2007 2:11 AM | Report abuse

Someone previously stated that most Mormon's are Republican. Although I personally know quite a few LDS Democrats, most are Republicans. One reason this is so could be this:

The things we believe in are conservative in nature which is what the Republican party is all about.

We believe in being self-sufficient, not expecting that something is "owed" to us and in taking handouts.

Conservatives (which are most Republicans) want government programs to be reduced. We don't need HillaryCare. We need HealthCare that everyone has access to, but not subsidized by the government. (Take a look at the government health care systems in Japan, Australia and Canada as examples to what we CAN'T do in America).

We know that people do fall on hard times occasionally, and we make it possible to help those people out short term and get back on their feet. We don't need Welfare the way it is now, which entraps participants to stay on the program, but should be designed to help out for the short term while they work to improve their situation and get themselves out of the hole.

In reading the previous blogs I am so surprised at how many people have misconceptions about the LDS faith.

I looked up the definition of Christian in the dictionary and it said:

....of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

According to this definition, how can people of the LDS faith NOT be Christian? I just can't understand the reasoning behind believing it's a cult! It makes no sense!

As for Mitt's speech....he did an incredible job...and he definitely has my vote.

I was actually leaning towards Huckabee until I watched the YouTube debate and Huckabee said he wanted "Scholarships" for the children of illegal immigrants. Did anyone hear Mitt Romney's response to that? It made me sit up in my seat and pay attention. Mitt's got the focus and I believe he would do a great job!

Posted by: chbostock | December 7, 2007 1:55 AM | Report abuse

You know, I keep wondering who gave evangelicals the right to define who a Christian is and isn't.

Such a childish little argument...

"Are not."

"Am too."

"Are not!"

"Am too!"

I, for one, am just glad Romney's speech gave you wankers something to blog about besides whether or not his landscapers happened to be illegals or not.

Romney has my vote, not because he is or isn't Mormon; he's the only candidate with a snowball's chance of defeating the Dem candidate. Content aside, today's speech proves he is thoughtful, educated, and articulate enough to win people over to his ideas.

Which he will have to do, if the current content of House and Senate are any predictors of the presidential race, right?

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:42 AM | Report abuse

I'm dumbfounded by the ignorance on this blog by people who profess to know dark and sinister secrets about mormons and Romney's connection to them, or who think that Republicans are just a few steps above the brownshirts.

I've been a conservative all my life, and a mormon for thirty years. Like Socrates, I believe the unexamined life isn't worth living, so I know why I believe what I do.

The detractors of both Mormonism and Conservatism have either no idea what they're talking about, and the nonsense they're attributing to us is based on paranoia, or misinformation they've been fed but never checked, or they're flat out liars.

I don't know which it is, but I do know that listening to fools or liars is never profitable.

I think Harlan Elison said it best, "You're not entitled to an opinion, you're entitled to an INFORMED opinion."

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 12:27 AM | Report abuse

An idea! A cage match to the death of ALL Christians and Moslems! And the LDS people could profit from the ticket sales. And we rational people could progress with science and space exploration once these regressive nuts were gone.

Posted by: sperrico | December 7, 2007 12:17 AM | Report abuse

h43012,


Yes. But the word created is not born. The two are not the same. The Constitution is Christian, so is you first & last name.

Eugene Debs '08

Posted by: legan00 | December 6, 2007 11:57 PM | Report abuse

Sperrico,


The constitution doesn't mention God as the foundation of the nation, that's not what it was supposed to do. But the Declaration of Independence says that all men are given certain rights by God, and that government was created to uphold those rights.

Posted by: jh43012 | December 6, 2007 11:22 PM | Report abuse

tom: What part of the United States Constitution has god mentioned as the foundation of the nation? Other than listening to Am radios wackos who have profited handsomely from the BushCo years try reading codified law. As you may recall, the Soviet Union ceased to exist. But religious wackos who think that THEIR god exists, like you, are killing people, and they invite destruction. The Soviets were at least rational. Something religious folks lack.

Posted by: sperrico | December 6, 2007 10:59 PM | Report abuse

In response to the question of why blacks weren't given the priesthood until 1978, I don't know. But I will also state that the gentiles were not allowed to even be baptized until after Christ's crucifixion(read The Acts chapters 10 and 11). So again, I don't know why some groups of people are restricted in some way or another from the church but I believe that God has his reasons and who am I to question him.

Posted by: jh43012 | December 6, 2007 10:59 PM | Report abuse

kyliex08,


Open arms. This is theme which you deserve. I am a Methodist, and a Christian Socialist. What I love about Mormons is there affinty for activism. I'm afraid much of society has allowed itself to be victimized. Look up the Wesley Brothers or the Methodist Church to better understand me.

Eugene Debs '08

Posted by: legan00 | December 6, 2007 10:37 PM | Report abuse

Im a proud mormon, and have been my whole life. im 17. and i have had my doubts too. but ive prayed and pondered, and i know for myself.

someone up there was talking about "a man and his wife rowing to america.." well thats true. we believe that Nephi, his father Lehi, and their whole family, as well as another large family, traveled on a large ship to the americas.ask any mormon child and they know that story. NO we dont worship any of these people, nor do we worship joseph smith or any other prophets. we worship Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. period.
oh and someone else up there said that everyone whos not mormon will burn. actually, we mormons believe that almost everyone, mormon and nonmormon, christian and nonchristian, will go to heaven.

so many of our beliefs are misunderstood and construed. its sad

and shame on the person who said that jahovas wittness is a cult. they are a very devout religion.
and us mormons arent a cult either.
i love my religion, and i wish that the critics would check their facts and talk to a few real live mormons. were pretty nice

Posted by: kyliex08 | December 6, 2007 10:29 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti,


I enjoy reading your post. You say you, too, are a Christian Socialist. Respond to my post here. I'd like to develop a correspondence, if that's not too forward for blogs. Sorry.
P.S. Let the universe handle the details.

Eugene Debs '08

Posted by: legan00 | December 6, 2007 10:19 PM | Report abuse

sperrico...you are so sadly mistaken. Where do you think your rights come from? Evolution? Or have they just existed since the dawn of man? Please use some of that grey matter and dig into history to find where the answer lies. I am not saying you have to accept any religion, just accept that it is the Judeo-Christian tradition that has made it possible for you to have the rights that you do.

God and religion may be a fantasy...who can say...but it is the belief of the majority who also believe that YOU are allowed to believe anything you wish. That is religious freedom and that does not exist in Iraq or Afganistan due to Islam being a belief based on submission to religious authority.

I think you had best find out what our country was founded on and not the secular society you would like it to be...when you are done, you may want to move to the Soviet Union...ooops their society crashed because religion was removed as the basis of rights and men could no longer live under the athiest oppression.

Posted by: tom | December 6, 2007 9:48 PM | Report abuse

I highly recommend everyone to the "Countdown with Keith Olbermann" show tonight. I just watched it, and you can get different parts of its archives anytime. Tonight was special in many respects as you will plainly see whenever you get a chance to spend a few minutes over the weekend.

Posted by: lylepink | December 6, 2007 9:39 PM | Report abuse

tom: Nobody "grants" atheists anything. Non-believers have the Constitutional right not to indulge in fantasy. Foe a country more to your preference go to Iran or Afghanistan. Please leave the United States. You don't deserve America and its freedoms.

Posted by: sperrico | December 6, 2007 9:18 PM | Report abuse

I am amazed at the amount of ignorance displayed in these posts about the comment Romney made on "Freedom needs religion". The founding fathers...even the ones that were not religious...understood that rights granted by one person to another or one group of people to a society, could be revoked at anytime. But rights from the "creator" based on the religious teachings handed down through the Judeo-Christian ethic of the last 4000 years could not be taken away without the destruction of all religious tradition. This includes the same rights granted to athiests and agnostics...given by God so that other men may not take them away. This is of course why so many on the left desire the removal of religion from our government...it limits the amount of control that can be placed on the population.

Class dismissed

Posted by: tom | December 6, 2007 9:01 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, that religious meglomania, like what Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Franklin all had "religious" motivations for their actions. Those crazy religious nutjobs! Creating a country that allowed them to be free, but at the same time basing it on the traditions of judeo-christian principles... what were they thinking?

I'm sorry, but it's an indisputable fact that these men's moral compasses were refined by religion. Oh, and what about that Abe Lincoln guy? Yeah, he didn't allow his religion to influence his politics... oh wait, yup... he did, because his character was defined by his understanding of religion.

No one is trying to oppress anyone else, except the athiest who say, for two hundred years public displays of religion have been acceptable, but not by us, and because they offend us, you can't display them. That's oppression, telling people how and where they can worship is oppression.

Mitt Romney is speaking from an educated position. This country was founded by deeply religious men, and it was clearly and repeatedly acknowledged that they believed their course was set and blessed by divine providence.

Even a cursory reading of the writings of the founders makes this evident, but like children who cover their ears and chant inane noises to drown out what they don't want to hear, the secular progressives talk over and around the facts, ignoring them completely. It's refreshing to hear a candidate speak like one of the founding fathers, openly about faith, and not separating the nation from God.

Posted by: jongoff | December 6, 2007 8:33 PM | Report abuse

With all due respect, Governor Romney's speech raises more questions than it lays to rest.

As many other commenters have pointed out, it is clear that Romney is deeply prejudiced against people who do not share the urge to publicly proclaim that Jesus is the Savior of mankind.

Many commenters have stated that in discussing this, that we are not talking about Mormonism, but about Mitt Romney.

But in his speech, and in his declaration of devotion and faith to Jesus, Romney has shifted the issue from Mormonism, to himself.

Romney may not accept the applicability of sectarian doctrine, but we now must wonder afresh at what divinely inspired misadventures Mitt will lead us into.

After GW Bush's religiously colored megalomania, Mitt looks pretty bad.

Posted by: pach12 | December 6, 2007 8:18 PM | Report abuse

This speech doesn't help Romney because he never even brought up the word that's causing him so much trouble: Mormon. GOP voters wanted him to say that Mormons are basically stricter evangelicals and that, even so, he will cast off from the LDS and become a Christian televangelist.

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Posted by: parkerfl | December 6, 2007 8:05 PM | Report abuse

Is Christianity this stuff:
Celestial Sex. The definition of sex is the procreative power of a species to create offspring. How did God create us, his children, by blowing bubbles? Making a wish and blowing out candles? Easy bake oven? Let's be honest, whatever the mechanics, it was celestial sex. Why does it offend you to think that God, the creator of the universe, and therefore all our organs, sexual or otherwise, himself is incapable of the power to procreate? You think of sex as a banal act, but it's a sacred act, which is why God has put restriction on how and when a man and woman should consummate their relationship.
Baptism For The Dead. - Paul, Corinthians 15:29 - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?"
Communicating With Dead. - This is not a mormon doctrine. We don't hold séances or perform any kind of ceremonies where we talk to the dead.
Magic Clothing.(underwear) The garments are a reminder of promises to put the kingdom of God first, not the world of men. They are not magic.
Blood Attonement. - The blood atonement is a doctrine that some sins are so grevious, murder for instance, that they can only be fully forgiven if the guilty forfeit their life as part of the repentance processs. This is touched upon extensively in the old testament and the new testament.
We Become Gods. Christ commanded us to be perfect, even as God is perfect. He also told those who accused him of blasphemy: "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"
Multiple Wives.
Blood Oaths. There are no blood oaths in the church.
Spirit Babies. Jerimiah 1:4-5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." And Acts 17: 28
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."
Heb. 12: 9
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

Cult Practices And Secret Rituals. This is a very generic term, but the apostles greeted each other with a kiss, it is referred to as the apostolic kiss in some instances. And technically, the first century church was a secret society, for fear of the persecution and death they faced.
Living Profits Today. God said he is the same today, yesterday and forever: Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" And Luke 1:70, Acts 3:21, etc reference the need for prophets. It's an eternal principle, that God has spoken through his prophets.

Posted by: jongoff | December 6, 2007 7:45 PM | Report abuse

Romney was wrong to ignore the real issue, his flip flopping, and to buy into the plan to show how holy he really was. Value voters were not nearly as concerned over his Mormonism as they will be now. Now they are all searching for tales of golden tables, arrest records of Joseph Smith in Palmyra, NY, the theft of Solomon Spaulding's manuscript which became the Book of Mormon, the phony additional scripture of Joseph Smith that turned out to be a copy of the Egyptian burial Book of the Dead, etc, etc. And now he will be asked why Mormons teach that Lucifer is Jesus brother. He has been outmaueverd by Huck in the theology wars.

Posted by: TrueHawk | December 6, 2007 7:39 PM | Report abuse

Movies try to be accurate.

Look at some old movies of church scenes in the U.S. and England.

Just to mention two, High Noon and The Man
who Knew Too Much.

Notice how in the american church you have town leaders and families and young people in attendance while in the english movies it's just the old people.

This has been the case for a long time.

Church attendance in england started going downhill long time ago.

For those who are touting as a bulwark of christianity, it has been estimated that within 50 years the continent will be overrun and controlled by moslems.

Posted by: malo8000 | December 6, 2007 7:20 PM | Report abuse

Who will take less of my money if I plan on practicing one of two religions for the next twenty years? The Church of Scientology or The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints ( reminds me of those communist countries calling themselves "..Democratic Republic of -----")? Xenu vs. Joesph Smith. One made up by a fake, the other a fake prophet.

Posted by: sperrico | December 6, 2007 7:10 PM | Report abuse

"I'm for freedom from opression ,jgurl5."

i DON'T WANT TO OPRESS MORMONS. bUT i DO NOT WHAT TO BE OPRESSED BY THE GOP MORMONS AND CATHOLICS MYSELF.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 7:04 PM | Report abuse

I'm for freedom from opression ,jgurl5.

That is what america was founded for. right?

now the gop is oppressing americans. our ancestors fled, what would now be called fascism, to come here so they would not be oppressed. Why did this change?

That is my only problem. i want the little mormon kids to be free to make their own choices. I want to be free without having to do what romney said today, that religon is a necessary for freedom. Doesn't that run counter to freedom.

That's all. I know many mormons. Jsut digging, that's all. I'm not one to talk abou tthe same nonsense which does not matter. I want to have real dialogue on these subjects. Rather than a one way road. Speak republcian talking points or get mocked/banned. My problems with botht he gop and mormons are evidenced by this site today. First mocked, then asked to be banned. when did someone say something real? When did real conversation coem into play? At the end of the day. After I pulled teeth. :)

I'm not the bad guy. I just know who the bad guys are and trying to point them out. If we could have real dialogue in america, without people fearing Geroge bush or dick cheaney is reading their every word, I wouldn;t have to be here.

These people always can't believe waht I say. "how is he not banned". I say the same thing about o'reilly rush and fox. the differance is I do get banned, they have free speech.

this is why I do what I do. to help them see the other side. they love to talk abou tfree speech and THEIR rights, but do not care about the other side. That is why. All they know is fear and strength, like the muslim terrorists. I put the fear in them. In attacking me and blaming me, a great thing happens. they start to rationalize and justify, in their heads. Through that self examination change occurs.

I'm not what I appear. There is meaning in my posts, not jsut attacks. If we could really blog here, you would see that.

Also me being way out there opens the blog for more moderate voices. Peple are free to speak what thye really feel because no one could be as out there as me. Should I need to be here for people to be free to speak their mind without fear? No. But that is why I blog and do what I do :)

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 6:55 PM | Report abuse

Glad to see you have eased up on the mormon attacks JKrishnamurti. Most know all that stuff and are strong members anyway. I know many Latter-day Saints and know that even within their families and congregations there is encouragement to find out for themselves if their church is true. Sure some may do it out of family tradition but the same goes for any religon, not just the Mormons. I believe that if people put as much energy into finding the positive aspects of the religion as the negative there would be a lot more tolerance (just look at their humanitarian stats).

Posted by: jgurl5 | December 6, 2007 6:44 PM | Report abuse

What stops us from knowing the one true God? Apart from fear. Why are war's waged?

Economics

Politics

Religon.

Or all three.

If we break down the walls that divide us for personal gain to the few, we have utopia. Who stops this? Who stops national and world unity? Who are the sabotuers for profit? Those are the true enemies. not liberals

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 6:33 PM | Report abuse

"Again, realize that change cannot come through conflict"

Oops. Change cannot come without conflict, that is

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 6:31 PM | Report abuse

ONE WORLD ONE PEOPLE

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 6:28 PM | Report abuse

"Mormons will be on par with God" - often quoted...often misunderstood. So, one last lesson for today then I've got to go home to my 3500 wives. ( I hope you can still recognize a joke )

To shay :)

God Bless you. May God protect and shine his wisdom on you. Remember, elbeau, that you are free and always have been. No man or woman is worth more than you. We are all one people with the same worth. Anything else is an illusion. I'm glad you came here today. Again, realize that change cannot come through conflict. Mental change cannot come through mental conflict.

I was not trying to attack you. Jsut make you think, as you did me. I am not your enemy as you are not mine. We are one. We are both americans. We are both humans. We should be on the same side, not fighting and bickering over nonsense. But I feel the gop waged this war to divde the country. you must understand that.

Good luck and God Bless.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 6:27 PM | Report abuse

i BLOG HERE TO NOT ATTACK REPUBLCAINS. But I to am a christan demcoratic socialist. I blog here for both sides. To pull the gop closer to the real world and reality. And to make sure the other side realize we are still all americans. Also that politics does not break down on religous lines. So liberals don't hate chrsitans. Real christains are liberals teh conservatives are the false chrsitans, not the other way around.

No one speaks for anybody but themselves, unless they submit to a "higher" authority. If that authority is a living man, you better make sure he is not using you, or me.

The budda says, "trust no man, even me, unless you first agree yourself. in your own mind. Many of the real Chrsitan Buddist jewish and muslim teachigns are universal. Are mormons? Are women equal to men. Are non-whotes equal to whites? how many black leaders have headed the LDS? Women? Hispanics? Asians? That should be an answer in itself.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 6:22 PM | Report abuse

Dang...I hate the way this site signs you out after writing a long post...I'll start over again:

I did get your joke...did you get mine?

"Mormons will be on par with God" - often quoted...often misunderstood. So, one last lesson for today then I've got to go home to my 3500 wives. ( I hope you can still recognize a joke )

Mormons do not believe they will ever be on par with God. He is our father in heaven and we are his children. Our successes become his successes because we are his children. Any success (ie: salvation through Jesus Christ) we have reflects on him, bringing him more Glory. We believe "all that he hath" can be ours, but such a thing is still a continuation of his work, because we are his creation.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 6:20 PM | Report abuse

I belive mormonism is the 5th largest religion in the United States-

Posted by: heatherenke | December 6, 2007 6:16 PM | Report abuse

Non-members of our church and Ex-members are so filled with hatred! Why not have more Respect?

Posted by: heatherenke | December 6, 2007 6:12 PM | Report abuse

"I am not a Mormon or a God"

Come on, I'd thought you'd have got that one :)

From above. Mormons will be on par with God. i slipped that one in He he he.

you know, because they pretend to know the will of God. Prophets and such. "If you do not marry your cousin God will be very angry at you".

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 6:06 PM | Report abuse

"Why should I be denied the chance for public office because of my faith?
"

You and he should not be. But you should not hide from it. I would prefer to have religon out of politics. To force christianity on a free person acomplishes nothing. I will take 5 real christans over 500,000 robot clones christans from birth. A real christian is not so through strict dogma or rehersed line for line parroting. A real chrsitan is so because they know God. A christan must walk through the darkness before seeing the light.

If you force it on your children, what does that accomplish? Are they a chrsitan because they say so? What makes a christan. I also say catholics are no longer chrsitans because they to choose to know GOd's will. they give forgivness that is not theirs to give.

That is a problem with mormons to me. like republcians it is be as me or do not be. That is not america. I want the children to be free from oppression. Even from their own parents.

Back to your question:

Why should I be denied the chance for public office because of my faith?

I don't see why you should be held down. Never said you should be. Read up on my poster name and you will understand better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti

The labels we put on ourselves is not for us, it is for those around us. When we become more like them, we lose who we really are. Many mormons are clones. I've known a few. Don't take this wrong but they are interchangable people. Same haircut same clothes same words, same defenses to the same arguements. Goes gret if you are a republcain, but what if you are a free man.

Not an attack. I appreciate your point of veiw. I am not a racist to religous"ist:).

It's just the needless labels we put on ourselves. America is the last place in the world for real freedom, at one time. This freedom has been replaced with fascism. "Be like me or do not be" is the motto? you question is why am I offened by that? This is america. Land of the free. that is why. Freedom for all, not just republcians or mormons or religous folk. We need to get religon out of politics. Not infuse it with politics. The last 8 years showed us this.

to much politics in religon. The gop wants to play it both ways. They want the voters while trying to keep religon out. Kind of like bill o'reilly silencing liberals free speech, while saying he cannot be silence due to free speech.

But I appreciate your point of view. Sorry if this sounds like an attack. It's my writing style. Just digging for the truth. No one is on this site but me and you anyway, scared off. So I wrote this for you elbeau.

We are all americans. We need to point out those that would marginalize us for personal or political gain. I feel romney and the republcains are doing this for Bush' legacy. Choosing party over country was treason at one time

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 6:04 PM | Report abuse

'Blaming this on Bill O'Reilly, or anyone else is to ignore the ACLU's war on Christmas, or the battle to remove the Ten Commandments from the public arena. Disolving the values, and morals that make this country great, will only lead to the downfall of our great society.'

The 'ACLUs War on Christmas' -- no actually the ACLU's war for freedom of religion. I attend a Jewish synagogue, I don't celebrate Christmas. Seems to me that what I am experiencing is a War on Chanukah. We don't accept Christ as a Messiah, simply a prophet. If you have a problem with that, read the Constitution...

Posted by: drindl | December 6, 2007 6:04 PM | Report abuse

So many people are ignorant about the beliefs of the LDS church. They hear rumors and stories that are absolutely not true. For instance, there is a film that shows that we teach our kids cult like behaviors while they are young. They show kids flashing their hands open and shut and tout it as cult-like behavior, whereas in reality, the children are singing the fun song "Popcorn Popping". What craziness! And yet people are pulled into believing such things. Mitt Romney addressing his faith was absolutely necessary! People have said that it has nothing to do with anything except gaining votes- I don't think that was his intent. Religion is a HUGE part of America and thus very important to address- especially with all the incorrect views on our religion. Thanks.

Posted by: heatherenke | December 6, 2007 6:01 PM | Report abuse

"I am not a Mormon or a God" -Dang...I was pretty sure you weren't a Mormon, but not being God was very disappointing. Since most "Christians" won't let me worship their God, I was hoping to find refuge in you.

Got to go - it's been nice bloggin with you.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 5:55 PM | Report abuse

-To those of you familiar with my posts, I am indeed a Christian Socialist. That said I would just like to commend Gov. Romney's speech this morning. This country is secular, so none should fear a distortion of the separation of church & state anytime soon. So I urge you, my secularist friends, to concede the role of spirituality in your own lives. To be certain, spirituality plays a significant role in our daily lives, so let us not pass judgment upon those who courageously defend their faith. Politically, the vast majority of Gov. Romney's positions are anathema to me. But I'm willing to concede that this was a great speech, and that the Governor is truly a respectable human being. Disrespect his policies, I urge you to, but do not ridicule one for addressing the childish public's stereotypes about Mormonism.
-Boy, I hope this race comes down to Romney and Obama or Romney and Edwards. As a New York City resident, let me tell you: Rudy Guiliani is the worst thing that could happen to this country. Please caution your Republican and Republican-leaning friends. For a glimpse of what the Guiliani foreign policy might be like: http://www.theamericancause.org
Click on Archives. This is Pat Buchanan's website. Even Pat Buchanan is frightened of Rudy Guiliani

Eugene Debs '08

Posted by: legan00 | December 6, 2007 5:53 PM | Report abuse

I'm going to do something rare in public forum and say something positive:

I found this speech -- and subject matter -- very telling. Telling that Romney has the courage to address this topic head on, state his beliefs, and ask the American people to decide based upon what is put on the table. Very well done!

Romney will definitely get my vote.

Posted by: kevandcan | December 6, 2007 5:48 PM | Report abuse

I had a long post written. The fix didn't take it.

SO I'll just say thanks for that post elbeau.

I am not a Mormon or a God. I merly speak for myself.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 5:48 PM | Report abuse

"BTW, I don't remember this level of agitation over George Romney's Mormonism in 1968.

Posted by: lharper53 | December 6, 2007 05:21 PM
"

Because the republcains ok'ed him. This after the red scare of the fifties. If the republcain cult says mormons are put of it, they are. Nothing to do with religon. Also why religon and politics should not be mixed.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Or I'm asian becaus eI eat chinesse food. Doesn;t work that way. You must practice the tenats of the teachings of the christ to call yourself a christian. Regardless of what the catholics keep telling you.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 5:29 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti: "Enlighten then" -

"A man rowed a boat from the middle east to america" - Nope...no evidence of any paddles...just sailed. Actually the Book of Mormon records three migrations from eastern civilizations to the west, but the one you mention was sailing.

"Not sure if he was their Jesus or not" - Was definiely NOT Jesus.

"But he had a wife" - Yup...just like most people. Actually he traveled with a small group of people, most of whom were married.

"Did they eat?" - Yup...it even says so. They brought food with them.

"How does this link to your founder finding golden tablets in the midwest?" - A man named "Mormon" lived about 400AD. He had access to the records kept by his civilization during the previous 1000 year period and he summed them up on the golden plates. His son, Moroni, burried them in upstate New York. An angel showed Joseph Smith where the plates were burried in the 1800's. He translated them, then gave them back to the angel.

"Where are the tablets now?" - Last seen with the angel...but not before they were shown to 11 other men who all testified in writing that they had seen them. Three of them had seen them by the angel himself, the others by Joseph Smith. All three of those that saw them from the angel later had fallings-out with Joseph Smith and left the church - but still affirmed time and time again that an angel had shown them the plates.

"You want christians to "authorize" you as christians start there." - No way...I already know I have faith in Jesus Christ. Who put you in a position to "authorize" anyways?

"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin." - Mitt Romney today

Now that I've answered your specifics, please answer me one: Why should I be denied the chance for public office because of my faith?

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 5:22 PM | Report abuse

A very nice turn of phrase, indeed, which will be familiar to members of Bible-based faiths:

"For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?"

--Luke 9:25

It was smart of him or his speechwriters to reference it, but I have no reason to believe it was anything but sincere.

Mormonism includes some tenets of which I am deeply skeptical, but, then, what all of us Christians believe is supernatural, a hope in the unseen.

Mormon intellectuals have fascinating, even persuasive arguments in favor of the particular tenets of LDS; it's worth tuning in to KSL to listen.

BTW, I don't remember this level of agitation over George Romney's Mormonism in 1968.

Posted by: lharper53 | December 6, 2007 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Now, let's fact check and see if I am blowing smoke today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

"Critics argue that aspects of the Book of Mormon narrative do not agree with modern archaeology and point out that mainstream archaeologists and anthropologists view the Book of Mormon as a work of fiction.[7] The Book of Mormon contains an account of peoples who, in succeeding groups between 2200 BC and 600 BC, traveled from the Middle East and settled in what is assumed to be the Americas. "

"Critics claim that the conventional Mormon view that Native Americans are solely descended from Hebrews in Jerusalem is inconsistent with genetic findings.[9][10] In the late 1990s scientists developed techniques to use genetic markers to determine the ethnic background and history of individual people. Thus, it is possible to compare genetic evidence of the ethnic background of Native Americans with hypotheses of the origin of Book of Mormon peoples. The Book of Mormon suggests that most or all Native Americans descend from mideast peoples. "

[edit] Credibility of witnesses
Main article: Three Witnesses
Critics claim that because the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon (Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer) left the church during Joseph Smith's lifetime and called Smith a fallen prophet, their testimony as published in the introduction to the Book of Mormon should be called into question.[17] Harris and Cowdery later returned to the fellowship of the church, although critics dispute the sincerity of their conversion.[18]

Apologists respond that while the three witnesses each believed Smith became a fallen prophet at a certain point in time, none of them denied their testimony of the Book of Mormon or denied that Smith was a true prophet when he translated the book
"

"Kinderhook Plates
Main article: Kinderhook Plates
Critics, including Fawn Brodie[40], the Tanners, and the Institute of Religious Research[41] call Smith's ability to translate into question by pointing to a hoax involving the Kinderhook plates, artifacts planted in 1843 in an Indian mound near Kinderhook, Illinois. Designed to appear ancient, the plates were a forgery created by certain men from Kinderhook who were hoping to trick their Mormon neighbors in Nauvoo. These critics cite the following statement to demonstrate that Smith was making fraudulent translations: page 372 of the History of the Church (DHC) reads: "I [Joseph Smith] have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth".[42]

Mormon apologists claim the statement was actually written by William Clayton, Smith's scribe.[43]
"

"Mormonism claimed to be a cult
Main article: Mountain Meadows Massacre
Main article: Blood oath (Latter Day Saints)
Critics sometimes refer to Mormonism as a cult[44], citing historical events such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre[45], and the Blood oaths in temple ordinances prior to 1990 that require death penalties for disobedience. Apologists respond that the Blood Oaths have been removed from the Endowment, and that critics use subjective definitions of the term cult[46] in "order to further [the critics'] message."
"

Admission of Blacks in 1978

Polygamy Outlawed in 1890

Teachings that Adam and God are the same

"Some sins not atonable
Main article: Blood Atonement
Brigham Young introduced the doctrine that there are some sins that cannot be atoned for through Jesus Christ[61][62]. He taught that the only way to atone for such sins, a person would have to give up his or her life[62]. The LDS church has since officially repudiated this doctrine, and additional rebuttal information is at Blood Atonement.
"

Please stop me any time mormons

"Access to historical documents
Main article: History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Critics complain that throughout the 20th century the church denied scholars access to many key church documents, and to this day refuses to publish Joseph Smith's diary.[84]

Apologists acknowledge this lack of access and point out that the Joseph Smith Papers project will provide access to Smith's journals
"

"[edit] Sexism
Main article: Women and Mormonism
Some critics argue that the LDS Church treats women as inferior to men.[95] Other critics claim sexism in the LDS church is demonstrated by absence of women in leadership roles, sexual abuse, lack of career opportunities, and poor family planning policies.[96] Critics claim that, rather than increasing the responsibilities of women, the LDS church has recently decreased the autonomy that Mormon women had (in areas such as welfare, leadership, training, publishing, and policy setting), citing, for example, handing control of the LDS Relief society over to men.[97]
"

"Racism
Main article: Blacks and Mormonism
Critics argue that past LDS church policies with regard to men of African descent were racist in nature and that the LDS church denied blacks full membership in the church,[101] citing quotes from church leaders such as Brigham Young who said "You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham...".[102] Those critics also illustrate church racism by quoting sections of the Book of Mormon which describe dark skin as a sign of a curse and a mark from God to distinguish a more righteous group of people from a less righteous group, and by citing passages describing white skin as "delightsome" while dark skin is portrayed as un-enticing.
"

I mean I can do this all day. Why should we care if he's a mormon. why should we care Hitler was a nazi? Not that mormons are nazi's. But the fake offense and fake cow eye ignorance are not ipressive at all. Maybe 200 years ago. The year is 2007 now. You cannot force conservatism on a free people use fear terrorist tactics and jones effect mocking.

The gop is done. Mormons should do your things. But to say your chrsitans tss tsst tsst. I do not accept mormons as christans. It's like saying I'm black because I play basketball. Doesn't work that way. You cannot merely say your are something and it is so. only works with midless dittoheads. You are by your words and actions.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Flip flop mitt has zero chance. Mormonism is just his biggest problem. Flip flopping on every issue is another one. Illegal immagration is another.

His last, but not smallest, "problem" is the democrats.

HAHAHAHAHAH.

The gop is done. Crumbling before our very years. Enjoy your irrelevance for 30 years. you've definatly earned it.

Go Fred Thompson 08 :)

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 5:10 PM | Report abuse

But he was there Jesus, from my understanding. At the same time. Rowing a small row boat from the east to AMerica. What happened then I would love to hear.

Some how there is a connection to present day. A man founded golden tablets in the hills near his house, with the mormon laws. The tablets are gone. Now I can premiss the Ten Commandments gone. We're talking THOUSANDS OF YEARS HERE. The golden tablets is a matter of centuries. They should at least have pictures.

Just an attempt to discredit real christanity and mock real christans. Like the flying spagetti monster. Though the premiss is right. The methods are extreamly insulting to real christians. You better hope your right and God Doesn't exist. I believe you mormons are in for a rude awakening, literally.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 5:08 PM | Report abuse

GO MITT ROMNEY!!! IT WAS AWESOME WHAT YOU DID TODAY!! GREAT FOR FAMILIES AND THE COUNTRY. GOD SMILES UPON YOU AND THIS GREAT COUNTRY!! YEA WE LOVE IT!!! LET'S HOPE WE ARE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH AS A COUNTRY TO VOTE IN THIS GREAT LEADER, MITT ROMNEY!!!

Posted by: c | December 6, 2007 5:07 PM | Report abuse

""was married to Mary"?

Geesh...you guys just make stuff up about us and get away with it...wow.
"

Enlighten then. you are proving everything I've said about you. To mock shows your fear and face.

But I will speak for mormons and their beleifs as they are scared to speak up for themselves today.

A man rowed a boat from the middle east to america. Not sure if he was their Jesus or not. But he had a wife. Explain the fact that a man rowed a boat. Did they eat? What kind of boat did they row over in? How does this link to your founder finding golden tablets in the midwest? Where are the tablets now? You want christians to "authorize" you as christians start there.

Or attack and blame. But do not call yourselves christians if you are scared to talk about religon. To me if you are scared to talk about your believes you are a fraud. That is how I see the LDS. A republcain cult designed to use religous laws and seperations for political gain. But I could be wrong. I guess we'll never know.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 4:55 PM | Report abuse

"Can a women have multiple husbands if she chooses then?" - No, and a man cannot have more than one wife, so what's your point? If you're talking about afterlife, or sealings, or long-lost LDS polygamy"

Ok tahnk you for enlightening me then. Take is easy. if you cannot defend you beleifs why have them? If they are strongly held you should need feel attacked to talk about them. I'm not trying to scare you. You attack me for asking questions. When people are scared they lash out at the "offened", or the person who they fear. I am not trying to scare you. But if talking about your religon scares you, you should know who you really fear? Your religous leaders? Your church? Your sect? Losing your family if you choose individuality. This is not an attack. If you think so read again.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. Women cannot have multiple wives, neither can men. Ok great. Anyone believe this, or care to comment?

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 4:48 PM | Report abuse

Romney's speech will not help his faltering campaign. The reality is most Americans realize that Mormonism is a 19th Century cult entirely rooted in American historical fantasy. The sad history of the Mormon church with its plural marriages, abuse of women, intolerance for others and long history of one man rule by the reigning "prophet" of the day form a long and not very pretty picture. John F. Kennedy legitimized the political presence of Catholics in America, but Mitt Romney has utterly failed to do the same for Mormons and Mormonism. He will never be elected.

Posted by: dsrobins | December 6, 2007 4:42 PM | Report abuse

"Sad how so many Americans are bigoted today. If you won't vote for Romney because he's Mormon you're no better than the racists who owned slaves many years ago."

Republcain propoganda and bal*s is astonding. Is this the same party that said if you are not for the iraq war you are a traitor to your country? Is this the same gop that yanked the dixie chicks of the radio because of their political persuasion. Is this the same gop that is boycotting movies about the iraq war? Is this the same gop that goes after all liberals and tries to make sure the are labeled and make no money. No just politicans and pundits, who the left goes after, but everyone who does not vote republcain. MAybe your right about mitt and the mormons. MAybe he is the perfect candidate for you intolerant robot clones.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 4:39 PM | Report abuse

I don't give a hoot in hell if Romney is Mormon, Muslim, Jewish, or none-of-the-above. Romney has a problem that voters simply will not be able to overcome in November 2008: People just don't trust him. They look at Romney, and they see John Kerry. And John Kerry lost, at the end of the day, because voters didn't know where he was going to come down on the issues.

This particular speech was a complete dud. Unless you were going to vote for him anyway, there was nothing in this speech that was going to change your vote.

Posted by: ztexz1 | December 6, 2007 4:36 PM | Report abuse

The media hyped this nonsensical, pious speech endlessly, and now they're telling us to ignore that elephant behind the curtain. First, he came out against "the religion of secularism," which means more anti-intellectual crap from him if he becomes president. He barely mentioned his beliefs, but I don't care. He doesn't have to defend Mormonism to me, just his idea of what role religion should or shouldn't play in politics. Aside from that, when those two solemn young men knock on my door on Saturday morning, I slam the door in their faces, as is my right, won for me by those secularists who wrote the constitution.

He was not speaking to America, he was speaking to the evangelicals, who seem to be jumping ship for Huckabee. Who cares? Nothing to do with me.

And why won't anybody mention, during this phony froth about how he came out for religious freedom, that he has promised not to appoint a Muslim to his cabinet? So much for freedom of religion.

Posted by: jimhass | December 6, 2007 4:34 PM | Report abuse

thecrisis: LOL...well said...not that I agree with all your lines, but at least you know what you're doing.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Unfortunately, Chris Cillizza is too enraptured with Mr. Romney speech to really grasp what was said and what it means. The best take here so far is that of MattConnolly, above.

Romney seeks religious tolerance yet is blatantly intolerant of non-Christians -- from Catholics to Jews to Muslims to non-believers in any kind of organized religion.

How does a man who wants his religion to be of no consequence to voters rail and rant over Muslims -- radical or otherwise -- and display no understanding of the tenets of their reliogion, just as he asks for, if not acceptance of, then tolerance for the idiosyncrasies of his own?

How do you ask to not be judged or have a "religious test" applied to you, but apply a test to others?

I don't know about you, but I feel uncomfortable when I hear a candidate speak about how God is on our side and because of that we are "anointed" and doing "God's work" as we go to war against those who do not share our faith? Can God bless America, without damning everyone else?

But worse for Romney is not his religion, but his demonstrated and repeated insincerity. Probably starting tomorrow, voters will come to their senses and realize Romney HAS SAID ANYTHING to get elected governor of Massachusetts, and WILL SAY ANYTHING to get elected President of the United States, and little belief should be put in anything he says.

Romney's problem is the ever-shifting positions he takes on core issues. That he uses some kind of religious "bridge to nowhere" to get to those new positions is what will ultimately sink his campaign. Voters cannot trust what he says one day to be true, valid or in play the next.

Posted by: jade7243 | December 6, 2007 4:15 PM | Report abuse

Hey Elbeau, we're just spreading misinformation, something Republicans have been doing for years:

WMD's in Iraq
Iran's nuclear program
John Kerry is a war criminal,
Barack Obama is a Muslim,
women belong in the home,
life begins at conception,
Americans are never racist,
no Constitutional separation of Church and State,
homosexuals don't deserve equal protection under the law,
homosexual marriage will destroy the American Family,
video games make kids kill each other,
violent movies make kids kill each other,
marijuana is addictive and kills people, Atheists have no morals,
All Muslims hate freedom,
Chavez is the next Hitler,
Putin is the next Hitler,
Ahmadinejad is the next Hitler,
Hussein is the next Hitler,
Kim Jong Il is the next Hitler,
Bush is a patriot,
Republicans care about black people,

hmm, should I go on?

Posted by: thecrisis | December 6, 2007 4:07 PM | Report abuse

"was married to Mary"?

Geesh...you guys just make stuff up about us and get away with it...wow.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 3:57 PM | Report abuse

We've all been waiting for the compassion and comfort from this current occupant of the White House. But it is apparent that no one can expect even mercy from a Christian president if his family and cronies can invade, loot, kill and conquer for their greedy acquisition. Meanwhile the rational among us predicted that any self proclaimed religious nut would become a demogouge once installed to power.

Posted by: sperrico | December 6, 2007 3:56 PM | Report abuse

Mormon.org is like the LDS public relations office. Why anyone would think a website created by those it aims to defend would be objective is beyond me.

If you want unbiased answers about Mormonism, you have to speak with non-Mormons and Mormons alike. And if you want to know whether Mormons are Christians or not, you ask CHRISTIANS, not Mormons. Mormons like to think they get to write themselves in on the religious ballot under the "Christian" party but any non-Mormon Christian who had studied Mormon doctrine knows full well that Mormons are not Christians. Unless, of course, Christians believe God was a man, Jesus visited the United States in the 19th Century and was married to Mary.

Posted by: thecrisis | December 6, 2007 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Romney's speech was brilliant and showed his passion and commitment to the constitution and the principles that the founding fathers intended. He also has a grip on the issues of today. I was amazed at his knowledge and eloquence in crafting the speech. I understand he wrote it himself. Absolutely no doubt he will make the best president.

Posted by: bryantford | December 6, 2007 3:49 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti: "don't be scared"...put away the patronization. I'm sure that feeling like you scare people gives you a bit of a power feeling, but it's pretty shallow..even for a blog entry.

I did answer your question, but not because I thought you were sincere in the question. It doesn't take much reading to see that you're not a borderline convert...yet :)...c'mon, I served an LDS mission, I have to throw in the "yet".

"Can a women have multiple husbands if she chooses then?" - No, and a man cannot have more than one wife, so what's your point? If you're talking about afterlife, or sealings, or long-lost LDS polygamy, then in those respects, the best I can say is that those things can be sorted out on the other side, but as much as you would use the argument to try to show gender bigotry within our church, it's not there. By the way, I have an aunt who is sealed to two men. The first one died and she remarried in the LDS temple. Get your facts straight before you start posting a bunch of nonsense.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 3:44 PM | Report abuse

A great place to start is mormon.org

Posted by: jgurl5 | December 6, 2007 02:33 PM
"

Why must we go there. There are mormons here. Are you free to speak for yourselves? Why would you follow something that enslaves you? Insanity. Any morons here can to comment on anything?

Thanks above to the guy talking about women in th elds. But that is impossilbe. Free agents? Can a women have multiple husbands if she chooses then? If not why? Maybe you have a convert in me. Don't be scared.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 3:29 PM | Report abuse

"No, the First Amendment does not guarantee freedom from religion, it guarantees freedom against an established religion"

tHE GOP LOVES TO MAKE up their owns rules based on small print. The party of lawyers. HAHAHHAAH.

We'll see how many americans are in your mental cages in 08. With all you rimaginary rules and justifications. Time will tell. You people (republcains) have ruined the country with your forced conservatism and your lawyering. I thought you people hated the gov and lawyers. I guess you hate it the way it was and want it your way. That is not america.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Chris,

I found a major mistake/typo in your piece.
THe name of Mitt Romney's Church is not "The Church of Latter-day Saints." The name of his church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is a very big difference!

I guessing that the reason that Mitt Romney didn't use the word "Mormon" very often, because that is not the name of his faith. It is a derogatory nickname given by detractors from his church (ie. people who don't like his church). Calling a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a "Mormon" is akin to calling a black person the "N" word. Latter-day Saint, Latter-day Christian or LDS are appropriate ways of refering to members of this church. I'm guessing that the reason that Romney even used the "Mormon" nickname once was because, sadly, this is the only name that some people know to call the Latter-day Saints.

Please note and tell your journalist friends that the name of Mitt Romney's Church is THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS and please don't call us the derogative nickname "Mormons." Please call us by our given name of LATTER-DAY SAINTS, LATTER-DAY CHRISTIANS, or LDS. I'm sure that these mistakes were accidental. Thank you, in advance, for correcting them!

Posted by: nancy123 | December 6, 2007 3:24 PM | Report abuse

Does the fact that George HW Bush introduced him mean that the Bushes are endorsing Romney?

Posted by: agroban | December 6, 2007 3:22 PM | Report abuse

Sorry my internet was down. They're trying to silence me :). That is why the long post.

"I thought comments that were off topic were banned from this. Your views on Mormons are not pertinant to the discusion. I guess it is beyond you to stay on topic, so I will just let this go.

Posted by: pogeypetey
"

THE GOP (FASCIST) WAY. Is this still america? do only republcains have free speech.

If I was wrong do you think someone would call me on it? Where is that? Attack me instead. Bann me in instead. Much safer than actually addressing the questions. Yet you still think people should vote for your candidates?
Ask Ron Paul about that. He's really getting a fair shake from your party.

I saw a poll dinner for republcains in san fransisco yesterday. To many ron paul supports showed up, and yes he is a republcian. how do you think these fascists handled that? They canceled the event and gave eveyone their money back.
Why? Scared of free speech. scared to have real dialgoue. Scared. So you
would ban me. Been there done that.

Cowards. This is why your party is done. the laws in this country are not just to protect you repubulicans. they are for me to. this is the whole arguement we are having here today. But ban me. It's all you got, or attack the messagner.
You cannot disprove truth. It is impossible. Enlighten me if I am wrong.
It is possible. I am not a mormon so I can't be God. I'm just a flawed man. Nobody is perfect.

"weinbob, Don't you find it offensive that people would vote based on what Ralph Reed tells them? It's like the Oprah-factor, only on the right.

Posted by: proudtobeGOP | December 6, 2007 01:30 PM
"


you mean like dittoehads doing their masters will. Hannity Parrots? O'REilly Cult. Yeah, I agree proud. Followers are SOOOOO 2005. HAHHAHA

Who on the left are dittoheads? Is their a anti-rush hannity o'reilly? No. Liberals are individuals. your double think is hysterical. I wonder if it really is ignorance or if it is something more. Fascism?

"JKrishnamurti and williamoo20008

I am glad you are part of this conversation. It always helps to see the cooky side of things in order to get a real grasp on reality.
"

Crazy talk coming from a morman. Very brave. Refute one thing. I haven't heard anyone say I am wrong yet. Mormons are here. they would call me a liar and prove me wrong if I was lying. Where?

So attack.

Is it true a man and his wife rowed a boat from europe to america in the time of Jesus? Is that true mormons? If it's true, be proud of your religon? Stand up on the tallest mountain. Don;t run nd hide in fear. That makes non-mormons suspicous.
As with anything. If someone claimed
to be la costra nostra, if they take on that label.
Should they be asked about it. Obviously it is a big issue in their life if that is their label. So defend it. How am I the bad guy for asking questions? I like religon. I do not like mormons intolerance and hate they preach, imo.
I don't like their divisivness (us against them).
I don;t like, like said above, "be exactly like me or do not be". I am an american. Forgive me for loving freedom.

Ban me. Show every independant thinker what you are about. fascists.

You've been blooging on right wing propoganda sites to long. When you ban people if they are not clones.
This is not your play ground. We have free speech on this site. My idol CC see to it. :) Just kidding. All regulars will see the humor.

If mormons are christans, their God Says" Ye shall reap what you sow". If they are putting out intolerance, that is what will come back to them.


You people misread the teachings, if you think you cannot realize other truth and learn non-religous teachings. Like willaim said above,
The morons cannot seek certain enlightenment. They are forbid. Like Warren Jeffs, they say if you do not follow them (men) God will punish you. Blasphamey.

Pretending to know the will of God. this is why,as posted above, catholics are a cult also. they pretend to be god's. Another High republcain rate. Anyone know any non-republican catholics?

Mormons and catholics. The foundation of the fascist republic party, imo. Atheists. In time they will revel this. God told us their would be false prophets.


I'll read and respond to the rest when I come back from lunch. I was done for about an hour. I want some claification on this today, if that's possible.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 3:14 PM | Report abuse

All the righwingers are deeply flawed. Huckabee is a pastor, yet refused to any responsibility for the release of a rapist who not only went on to rape again, but to murder. Even a close assistant of his said Huckabee pushed the parole for the release, and also wrote the guy that he'd been unfairly over-charged. This to a rapist. He completely ignored the appeals of previous rape victims of that perverted ass. Do we need another incometent rightwinger in the White House.

Posted by: shag11 | December 6, 2007 3:13 PM | Report abuse

Skimming through all these comments about Mormon-LDS doctrines and beliefs, I am less concerned with them than with the LDS Church's preoccupation with its corporate business aspects.

In a lengthy New Yorker article on the Church a few years ago the author marvelled at how much the Church elders wanted to talk about the business aspect of the Church.

Romney will clearly be the candidate of Corporate America, much as the current President was.

Posted by: Spectator | December 6, 2007 3:12 PM | Report abuse

Chris,

I found a major mistake/typo in your piece.
THe name of Mitt Romney's Church is not "The Church of Latter-day Saints." The name of his church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is a very big difference!

I guessing that the reason that Mitt Romney didn't use the word "Mormon" very often, because that is not the name of his faith. It is a derogatory nickname given by detractors from his church (ie. people who don't like his church). Calling a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a "Mormon" is akin to calling a black person the "N" word. Latter-day Saint, Latter-day Christian or LDS are appropriate ways of refering to members of this church. I'm guessing that the reason that Romney even used the "Mormon" nickname once was because, sadly, this is the only name that some people know to call the Latter-day Saints.

Please note and tell your journalist friends that the name of Mitt Romney's Church is THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS and please don't call us the derogative nickname "Mormons." Please call us by our given name of LATTER-DAY SAINTS, LATTER-DAY CHRISTIANS, or LDS. I'm sure that these mistakes were accidental. Thank you, in advance, for correcting them!

Posted by: nancy123 | December 6, 2007 3:10 PM | Report abuse

archie136

Thank you for the most intelligent comment on this board today. (other than my own... :).

These are questions to ask a presidential candidate. Not MAGICAL UNDERWEAR, or CELSTIAL SEX. Thank you for bringing this back to where it should be.

Posted by: pogeypetey | December 6, 2007 3:04 PM | Report abuse

Chris, you completely missed the biggest idiocy in Romney's speech and what not only didn't work, but may cause trouble for him in the future. And that's aside from the comment that "Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs, even to gain the world" from a candidate that has been notorious in jettisoning his beliefs in order to gain the nomination.

It's this: "Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom." This is just WRONG, and wrong in so many ways it's hard to summarize in a comment. First, a largely secularized Western Europe does just fine with its democracy without much religion, but that "religion requires freedom" is plain absurd. Just ask the Taliban, religious but hardly free, or many of hundreds of other examples in history like Spain in the 16th Century or Russia under the Czars.

It boggles my mind that no one points this out.

Posted by: mjshep | December 6, 2007 3:03 PM | Report abuse

"Americans do not respect believers of convenience. Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs, even to gain the world."- Exactly, that's why people don't respect you, Mitt. Mitt Romney believes in one thing, the promotion of Mitt Romney.

Posted by: sfmandrew | December 6, 2007 2:59 PM | Report abuse

Just in case, it has not been figured it out by the masses, Romney is the Republican's answer to Hillary Clinton in that he, like Clinton, would say or do anything to get elected. Although I do not have any question about the religion of others in the presidential race, I do have some questions for Romney. Since his religion which he is so guided by (and is now on the front burner), seems very much different from any others in the race. I would like to know why until 1978, there was a Mormon religious tenet that black people were not worthy enough to be equal to white Mormons? Why didn't he check to ensure that he was not benefiting from the cheap labor of illegal aliens, before spewing his expedient hypocritical nonsense about illegals aliens in the USA? Why does Romney believe that we should open our borders to all Cubans, who presumably would become legal once they set foot on US soil? Does this have anything to do with the fact that Romney feels that this will play well with the Cuban voting bloc in Florida? What about the oppressed people in China and Myanmar? Shouldn't they be allowed unfettered access to the USA as well?
I would also like Romney to fully explain again his answer as to why he would [or would not employ] a muslim in his administration.
Do not look for any logic in this man's political rhetoric. You would not find any. Romney's sole task is to say and do anything he thinks will garner him votes.

Andy

Posted by: archie136 | December 6, 2007 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Sad how so many Americans are bigoted today. If you won't vote for Romney because he's Mormon you're no better than the racists who owned slaves many years ago.

I liked this speech, Romney is a great politician and leader, and people should be judging him based on his qualifications and the issues rather than what religion he is, that was the point he was making. And he really shouldn't have had to make this speech. Americans pride themselves on being open-minded, but in fact many are so close-minded and intolerant it's disturbing. So those who are bashing Romney because of his faith and making ignorant comments about his religion, congratulations, you've sunk to a new low.

Posted by: pooldude256 | December 6, 2007 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Great speech! Clear and unequivocal and powerful. I was profoundly moved by it. He is a candidate with a real understanding of American history. He has my vote.

Posted by: Craig | December 6, 2007 2:53 PM | Report abuse

First of all this speech is a General Election speech... It was to historical and scripted he still comes of as stiff and scripted except when he almost started to cry at the end(shades of Muskie)begging almost for votes not speaking from the heart. He took on Huckabee and Baptists and the religious right when he said " Some take religion TO FAR" that was a direct shot at Huckabee and the rest and does not help him with Christians in Iowa and he opens the door for Huckabee to respond give a speech of his own? All and All the speech doesn't live up to the billing and at 10;30 in the morning I wonder who watched it probably everyone in Utah and a couple hundred political junkies!

Posted by: gfsurrette | December 6, 2007 2:52 PM | Report abuse

that's our drindl. the only sign of intelligence is when she cuts someone else's stuff and pastes it. then she displays her ignorance by trying to refute it with insults and hate. no facts, no reason, no discusssion.

drindl in her nutshell.

Posted by: kingofzouk | December 6, 2007 2:51 PM | Report abuse

I agree that Romney's religion is not a reason to not vote for him.

What is a reason not to vote for him is that he is a complete phony.

Posted by: Spectator2 | December 6, 2007 2:50 PM | Report abuse

claudialong...

An otherwise intelligent foray into blogging was screwed up by this line

"More demogogic, Bill O'Reilly, Culture War crap. More dogwhistle politics..."

Mr. Romney is correct in his assertion that religion and more particularly Christianity is being attacked. This country was founded on certain values, and Religious Bigotry wasn't one of them. Blaming this on Bill O'Reilly, or anyone else is to ignore the ACLU's war on Christmas, or the battle to remove the Ten Commandments from the public arena. Disolving the values, and morals that make this country great, will only lead to the downfall of our great society.

Posted by: pogeypetey | December 6, 2007 2:41 PM | Report abuse

One of the finest political speeches I have heard.

Posted by: John42 | December 6, 2007 2:39 PM | Report abuse

errinfamilia, to answer your question:

In recent years, the First Presidency of our church has encouraged us to use the full name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints when refering to our membership due to problems like those faced by Mitt Romney now.

We are not ashamed of the term "Mormon" but "it is only a nickname--derived from our belief in the Book of Mormon" (Elder Russell M. Nelson, "Combating Spiritual Drift: Our Global Pandemic")

Being so prominent in the public eye, Mitt Romney probably has defered to this formal request about the use of the name of the church, not only to comply; but also to help de-mystify some of the mis-understandings that arise from over-use of the term, "Mormon." We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ and believe He is the Son of God and our Redeemer. We do not worship Mormon.

Posted by: ladyvantiger | December 6, 2007 2:38 PM | Report abuse

seattlevoter

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Ie. no to the CHURCH of ENGLAND running things. Your freedom from religion is your freedom of choice, which oddly enough was given to you by the God you are so anxious to ban from our lives. Imagine that.

Posted by: pogeypetey | December 6, 2007 2:35 PM | Report abuse

Ok, I realize in this disscusion it is difficult to seperate the religion from the politics. However, anyone basing what the Mormons believe on anti-mormon youtube videos deserves the confusion that follows. Take the time to make an educated research on the facts, any aspect of a religion can be seen from a negetive view point by the cynical. The Saducees and Pharisees sneered at the Savior Himself.

A great place to start is mormon.org

Posted by: jgurl5 | December 6, 2007 2:33 PM | Report abuse

'But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It's as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America - the religion of secularism. They are wrong.'

More demogogic, Bill O'Reilly, Culture War crap. More dogwhistle politics...

Posted by: drindl | December 6, 2007 2:33 PM | Report abuse

After reading this speech, it is clear to me that I will be voting for Mitt in the primary.

Posted by: ppdocbob | December 6, 2007 2:30 PM | Report abuse

From seattlevoter:

"With all due respect, Chris, your "WRONG" column is missing something big: Romney's total misunderstanding of the First Amendment. It guarantees not just freedom of religion but also freedom *from* religion."


No, the First Amendment does not guarantee freedom from religion, it guarantees freedom against an established religion. Before you question others' understanding of the Amendment you should make sure you actually read it.

Posted by: thabo97 | December 6, 2007 2:28 PM | Report abuse

'finally something drindl knows a thing or two about from personal experience - actually the resident expert.'

Just can't stop thinking about me, can you zou? Practically all you talk about, all day every day. I mean, it's flattering, but I'm married you know. I suggest you seek help for your obssession with someone you've nevr even met. I feel such pity for you.

Btw, what did you say you did for a living again? You seem to have so much free time to think about me...

Posted by: drindl | December 6, 2007 2:24 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti: "Again, mormons. What is the role of the women? How many women equal one man? After death, is a women an individual or bound to her husband? Is it her choice or is the GOd's. Enlighten us non-mormons."

Well...based on your other posts it s not likely that you're looking for enlightenment, but rather just picking a fight...but since I can honestly see a woman wondering these things based on the junk people hurl at our religion, I'll answer:

1 Woman = 1 Man (I hope that's simple enough for you)

We believe that God's entire plan of salvation is based on free agency. There is no more guiding principle in our church than free agency. To think that a woman is subservient to a man here on earth or in heaven is ludicrous. We believe that men, women, and children are "bound" together as families, but not in subservient relationships.

It is HER choice, not God's...again...free agency - given by God to Us.

And to throw my own two cents in...I'm Mormon and married to a very feminist wife, and Mother and Grandmother are/were both schoolteachers. We believe fervently that children need parents at home, but not that "the woman's place is at home".

Go meet some Mormon women if you think I'm just blowing smoke.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 2:09 PM | Report abuse

Atheists should get lost, eh?

So Romney isn't interested in representing Atheists because he doesn't agree with us?

That's too bad. For some reason I feel like if a person wants to represent the nation, they should represent everyone who lives there (legally).

Posted by: thecrisis | December 6, 2007 2:08 PM | Report abuse

From a political standpoint on reassuring a larger public that Mormons are christians, I'm surprised he didn't mention something most Americans have heard with joy---the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. He said I believe Jesus is the son of god and my savior. He sould have added something like: And particularly at this time of the year,those of you who have heard the beautiful carols of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir should know how central this is to my faith

Posted by: sabolaw | December 6, 2007 2:04 PM | Report abuse

After watching the video here of JFK speak before a visibly cold audience then next Romney introduced by royalty cheered like a conquering hero - I can't help but think of those old newsreels of Hitler similarly dwarfed by banners likewise having to raise his voice to be heard above the adulation of his Party's faithful. The GOP creeps me out.

Posted by: jhbyer | December 6, 2007 1:55 PM | Report abuse

Harry Reid (D) Nev, the Senate Majority Leader, is a Mormon and also a Democrat.

Posted by: vfazio | December 6, 2007 1:55 PM | Report abuse

hey andrewcompton -- great post. maybe Mitty could use you to do a tv ad for him? You could just read that post.

Posted by: Spectator2 | December 6, 2007 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Someone asked about a prominent Democrat that is a Mormon. Harry Reid is a Mormon. Any more questions?

By the way, Mitt has been hounded to give a "Mormon" speech; such is sadly a reflection of biggotry in American. What his speech did basically was say to expect such was wrong, but that religion has been a tremendously positive influence on the US of A. Anybody who disagrees would be in denial. It was an excellent speech, and the majority will see it an authentic, heart-felt attempt by this candidate to alay fears that Mormonism will rule his decisions. Whether you agree or not is certainly up to you.

Posted by: Rockyspoon | December 6, 2007 1:49 PM | Report abuse

'Had he focused instead on simply arguing that presidents need only prove themselves loyal to American values, he would have been on safe ground.

Instead, he over-reached, super-adding to his civic appeal an additional appeal to voters who demand faith in Jesus as a requirement in a president. That is an argument that will not work - and a game Mitt Romney cannot win."

Agree with you there, proud. There's a lot of Jews and Hindus and what have you who will be proufondly unhappy with that. It also violates the Constitution, against a relgious test.

Also the idea that you can't have freedom without Jesus... I don't even know what to say.

Posted by: drindl | December 6, 2007 1:49 PM | Report abuse

a recent survey revealed that about 89% of Americans believe in some sort of God.

A different survey told us that 11% of the voters think the Dem led congress is doing a good job - coincidence?

the new left religion of statism loves the government. they have become so arrogant, they even think they can control the weather. If you just tax enough rich people you can stop hurricanes, forest fires, floods, wind and rain.

Posted by: kingofzouk | December 6, 2007 1:47 PM | Report abuse

"Freedom requires religion" says Romney. Sounds to me like he's bigoted against the non-religious. A religious supremacist.

Posted by: newageblues | December 6, 2007 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Romney's speech in my mind was all that it needed to be. He states that the reason he is a mormon is because he believes in it and he choses to follow his father's beliefs.
Romney addresses those of every faith and those of no faith when he tells how he views everyone as equals.

I wonder why anyone would want to learn about mormons from a place that is on google video. If I wanted to learn about someone or something I do not think I would get correct facts by researching an outside source. I would hope that no one would want to get to know me by asking my enemies or even friends. The best truths come from the source themselves.

Romney's religion is too big for a 20 minute speech as is I suppose, any religion. How was he supposed to go into detail?

Posted by: nataleelew | December 6, 2007 1:44 PM | Report abuse

Look, anybody who is criticizing Romney for his statements that America is a religious country and that "freedom requires religion" (meaning the existence of religious practice not a state religion duh!)needs to take an American History class. The vast majority of our Founders were religious men that depended on God. They did not impose their views on others, rather they tolerated one another. I loved the example Romney used of when Sam Adams stood up and told the people at the Constitutional Convention that it didn't matter that they were of different creeds, but that they should pray as a group of believers in God. That is the epitomy of religion and values in our country.

The secularists, atheists, and anti-Mormons out there were not the target of the Romney speech so you should all just get lost. You were never going to vote for Romney, and you want to berate him for giving a great speech. Your comments are unimportant as far as the Romney campaign is concerned.

Posted by: andrewcompton | December 6, 2007 1:43 PM | Report abuse

Scott, Romney is making his religion an issue. He's trying to appeal to religious voters by stressing how important his faith is to him. By taking that approach, he naturally opens himself up to questions about his religion. He says that his "private beliefs" will affect the way he governs, so it's legitimate to ask him about those beliefs.

Posted by: Blarg | December 6, 2007 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Wow! I agree that it seems like there are a few that have a chip on their shoulder about Mormons. I think Mitt did a great job. If he would have gone into more detail about Mormon Church doctrine, you'd all be talking about how he was trying to convert you to Mormonism! If you would truly like to understand the church better, you can find a lot of information on www.ldschurch.org or you can also request to have missionaries visit your home.

Posted by: jvaneer | December 6, 2007 1:40 PM | Report abuse

I am living in France and it is a sad truth that the cathedrals are almost empty of worshipers. Many churches in the small towns can no longer support a priest and are closed to masses most Sundays. One priest can rotate to as many as 4 churchs on different weeks.

In France it would be expected that Romney would say that the topic of religion is not relevant and that if you want to know more about my church ask a Priest.

If I remember right, there were several small groups of obscure religions that started the United States. Their practices were very strange but did not hurt others, why is everyone in the states making this such a big deal?

If he is a good manager and would lead the country in the right direction according to your views...vote for him. If not...don't. Why bother him so much about his private beliefs?

Posted by: scottb | December 6, 2007 1:37 PM | Report abuse

What is truly amazing is not just the speed with which Senator Clinton's leads have collapsed -- everyone expected the race to narrow -- it is the self-inflicted nature of the wounds. To be blunt: Clinton's feared political machine has turned out to be a paper tiger. Her inability to answer a straightforward question about giving driver's licenses to illegal aliens was inexcusable for a two-term Senator who wishes to run the country. Her "I'm just a girl defense" was even worse. And I actually had to go to her website (first time, to be sure) and read her press release attacking Senator Obama for something he wrote in elementary school firsthand, because I was certain that the friend who sent me the news article had actually cut-and-pasted it from the Onion and was trying to pull one over on me.

The worst is likely yet to come for Clinton. While her opponents didn't expect the windfalls that her ham-handed campaign has given them, they knew she was vulnerable on ethics. And at the worst possible moment for her, one of her leading former fundraisers has come under indictment.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23816

Posted by: kingofzouk | December 6, 2007 1:36 PM | Report abuse

I am living in France and it is a sad truth that the cathedrals are almost empty of worshipers. Many churches in the small towns can no longer support a priest and are closed to masses most Sundays. One priest can rotate to as many as 4 churchs on different weeks.

In France it would be expected that Romney would say that the topic of religion is not relevant and that if you want to know more about my church ask a Priest.

If I remember right, there were several small groups of obscure religions that started the United States. Their practices were very strange but did not hurt others, why is everyone in the states making this such a big deal?

If he is a good manager and would lead the country in the right direction according to your views...vote for him. If not...don't. Why bother him so much about his private beliefs?

Posted by: scottb | December 6, 2007 1:35 PM | Report abuse

" LDS beliefs simply can't be squared with orthodox Christian thought, so Romney shouldn't try. Much wiser to stress commonality on moral issues. "

I agree. But they call themselves christians? Again, mormons. What is the role of the women? How many women equal one man? After death, is a women an individual or bound to her husband? Is it her choice or is the GOd's. Enlighten us non-mormons. :)

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 1:35 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti and williamoo20008

I am glad you are part of this conversation. It always helps to see the cooky side of things in order to get a real grasp on reality.

Let us all be greatfull to the founders of this country giving us a forum for even the oddest among us. Illumitis infiltration at the highest levels of the Mormon church, Celestial sex, Area 51, and George W. Bush is a lizard.

Thank you for the lighter side of the news.

Posted by: pogeypetey | December 6, 2007 1:34 PM | Report abuse

As to the question of why Mitt Romney only mentioned being a Mormon once; it may be that we "Mormons" don't call ourselves Mormons--other people refer to us in that way.

Posted by: ladyvantiger | December 6, 2007 01:03 PM

Huh? Plenty of Mormons refer to themselves as Mormons. They use the Mormon moniker as well as the LDS one. Makes little difference to most members, as they are proud of either designation. Not sure where you are coming from at all when you act as if Mormons don't call themselves Mormon. They do.

Posted by: errinfamilia | December 6, 2007 1:30 PM | Report abuse

weinbob, Don't you find it offensive that people would vote based on what Ralph Reed tells them? It's like the Oprah-factor, only on the right.

Posted by: proudtobeGOP | December 6, 2007 1:30 PM | Report abuse

weinbob,

Most of the political leaders of the religious right are not anti-Mormon. Mormons share the social issue views of conservative evangelicals. The more politically oriented leaders of the religious right are well aware of this. It is the followers and the pastors in the boondocks who Romney needs to reach to at least reduce the anti-Mormon feeling.

Posted by: jimd52 | December 6, 2007 1:28 PM | Report abuse

I thought the speech was one of the best I have heard in a long time from any person. When Matthews of Hardball, Ms Quinn, from MSNBC says it was moving an a homerun, pretty much speaks for itself. Having read most things leading up to this speech, I knew it was NOT going to be a l0l on the Morman Religion. Dispite ones politics, you need to give the man his due on speech making. I understand he wrote this himself, an the emotion with which he delivered it, was moving. As a Baptist myself, I would not hesitate to vote for a Morman. If Romney is an example of what Mormans can produce when it comes to faith, family values, an respect for others more credit to them.

Posted by: eafcat | December 6, 2007 1:26 PM | Report abuse

You are the peanut gallery rufus

Posted by: proudtobeGOP | December 6, 2007 1:26 PM | Report abuse

Many Southern Baptists believe that Roman Catholics, as well as Mormons, are not Christians. While anti-Catholic prejudice has been dramatically reduced over the last 50 years or so, it is still there. Anti-Mormon prejudice is even more prevalent. I was listening to some interviews of people attending a conservative evangelical gathering a few months ago. Several interviewees stated that they could not vote for a non-Christian for president and that they did not consider Mormons and Catholics Christians. Bob Jones University used to have a posting on its web site referring to Catholicism and Mormonism as cults.

Polls show that the one group most likely to harbor anti-Mormon prejudice are evangelical Christians - precisely the key group of social conservatives that Romney is trying to win over.

Posted by: jimd52 | December 6, 2007 1:25 PM | Report abuse

don't worry williamoo20008. If all they can do is attack the messanger, you must be correct. If they cannot refute your points but only act "offened" by mere converstaion, then they don;t deserve your vote.

If anyone makes religon a political issue, they should have to defend it. If they will not or can not do it. they are not worth our time.

Screw their feelings. this is how change and growth happens. Forget the gop memeber here that are to scared to talk about truths. That is why the gop is done. Their fear of the future and slavery to the past.

The future is now. All religons are out in the open. If you I call myself a (anything), if I make that thing part of MY identity. Then sell myself to your AS your voice and your representative. Then they shoudl answer the quetion.

Ignore the peanut gallery williamoo20008. Do you. the thought police only have the power you give them. Post your consceince.

My two cents

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 1:22 PM | Report abuse

williamoo20008 thinks the Illuminati run the world. And he's worried about the cult fanaticism of OTHERS. lol

Posted by: errinfamilia | December 6, 2007 1:21 PM | Report abuse

VERY GOOD SPEECH- Disagree on timing - I think the other candidates are drooling at the exposure.

I saw Ralph Reed give very high praise for the speech on Fox and that is the group he needs to win over.

Those of us who are fiscal and security conservatives are looking to keep the "big tent" intact to defeat the dems. That includes independents. So let's take this speech to heart and not let his Mormon faith disqualify Romney.

Full disclosure - Jewish American who voted R last 3 cycles - Would consider voting for Rudy, Romney, McCain or OBAMA!

Posted by: weinbob | December 6, 2007 1:20 PM | Report abuse

I found Chris's column very disappointing today because he missed the real point of Romney's speech which was to ally himself with conservative Christians by throwing non-believers off the boat. Romney talked in great detail about the importance of America's common faith and stated that he would stand by anyone who had ever stood with their hands folded in prayer. His speech very specifically excluded non-believers from the scope of his America. His choice was deliberate and deserves the attention of the press. Mitt Romney was asked if he would have a Muslim in his cabinet. Will he be asked if he would have an atheist? an agnostic? a lapsed believer of any faith? Mitt Romney did not committ himself to religious liberty..He committed himself to a religous America. Many people have given well delivered speeches to convey ugly ideas. Mitt Romney is no exception.

Posted by: mjwoodhead | December 6, 2007 1:20 PM | Report abuse

What happens when you lurch left?

December 6, 2007 -- NBC boss Jeff Zucker is expected to make big cuts on the newsgathering and operational side of the company's news division, including eliminating an entire level of MSNBC's management team, in a bid to save between $20 million and $40 million, The Post has learned.

Sources inside or close to NBC yesterday claimed the cuts, which are expected to come down this week or next, will be weighted evenly between NBC News and MSNBC. CNBC staffers are being shielded from this round of cuts because Zucker wants the network to be at full strength now that the battle with Fox Business Network has begun. (FBN is owned by News Corp., which also owns The Post.)

watch out CC - drindl and rufas will have your job.

Posted by: kingofzouk | December 6, 2007 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Bigotry personified. Slick, well-oiled, and polished but bigotry. He insults the majority of the world that believes in no god, many gods, or gods other than the one the "Big Three" talk about; insults and excludes them from consideration. Politically pragmatic in an election in the US but, nonetheless, bigotry.

Posted by: joconnor3 | December 6, 2007 1:19 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti....

Title of this article is 'Romney's "Faith in America" Speech: What Worked and What Didn't' not 'Mormonism: What I don't like about it.' I thought comments that were off topic were banned from this. Your views on Mormons are not pertinant to the discusion. I guess it is beyond you to stay on topic, so I will just let this go.

Posted by: pogeypetey | December 6, 2007 1:19 PM | Report abuse

I don't hate any religious person. You are lying.

Hate was slaughtering people like the Cult founder did. That's as dangerous as muslims that would do that.
Extremely secret, controlling and cultish at the top of the Cults. I grant you good kind people at the bottom.

Educate yourself on what church leaders forbid you.
Multiple Wives
Spirit Babies
Celestial Sex
Baptism For The Dead
Communicating With Dead
Magic Clothing
Blood Attonement
We Become Gods
Blood Oaths
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals
Living Profits Today

"Mormons and the illuminati"

Posted by: williamoo20008 | December 6, 2007 1:18 PM | Report abuse

That dog won't hunt

"Bad move - and one with very unfair results to a candidate who all must acknowledge is a man who has proven that his mind actually operates in a highly empirical, data-driven, and uncredulous way.

Had he focused instead on simply arguing that presidents need only prove themselves loyal to American values, he would have been on safe ground.

Instead, he over-reached, super-adding to his civic appeal an additional appeal to voters who demand faith in Jesus as a requirement in a president. That is an argument that will not work - and a game Mitt Romney cannot win."

http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTUzYTIwZWNiMDg1YWJjMjE1MWI1MWJhYTI0OWU4OWM=

Posted by: proudtobeGOP | December 6, 2007 1:18 PM | Report abuse

I am not -surprised that you leftist liberals fear and loathe any religion. It would require that you have a sense of morals, a code of what is right and wrong, instead of the constantly shifting opportunism you now apply.

the 1st amendment was in direct response to the Church of England and the State religion. If you weren't a member , you couldn't get the goodies, much like the enviro-fascists of today and the communism you are fondly wishing for in a reminiscing fog.

therefore, in the US, we determined not to have a state sponsored religion. so go ahead and pick your own. you are free to practice it without malice.

however, you are not guaranteed to be free from another's religion, it is just that we don't organize them hierarchically.

Having a cross on a public property does not require you to join that religion for public favors.

I am not religious in the least yet do not fear religion or try to drive it from my life. I simply shrug and say I don't know.

how is it that Libs always think they know everything, especially what's best for you?

Posted by: kingofzouk | December 6, 2007 1:18 PM | Report abuse

As an atheist I found Romney's speech very well put and delivered. I assume now that Huckabee and Obama will now give a similar speech since both have referenced their god and beliefs in many speeches.

I found his speech to be uplifting and a plea for Americans to come together, not under any religion, but as simply Americans.

Posted by: kolijah | December 6, 2007 1:18 PM | Report abuse

There are Christians, and then there are "Christians" (people who profess Jesus but act more like Pharisees and Sadducees, religious groups who thought that they and their belief systems were superior and favored by God). I hope that the bigotry against Mormons is only supported by a small minority of those who profess to follow Jesus, because in my mind:

BIGOTTED CHRISTIANS ARE NO CHRISTIANS AT ALL!!

They must be so unstable in their own faith. They seem to spend more time and energy criticizing other faiths than they do living their own faith.

IF YOU BELIEVE IT, HOW ABOUT ACTUALLY APPLYING JESUS' TEACHINGS TO HOW YOU TREAT OTHERS!

Posted by: ZEDster1 | December 6, 2007 1:17 PM | Report abuse

Krishnamurti had a very valid question about Mormons and their party affiliation. From what I understand, roughly 90% of Mormons vote Republican compared to 10% Democrats (I am not including independent voters of Mormon faith that are not registered to either party). It's a very high rate, and has apparently been that solid for some time. That taken into account, it is actually quite phenomenal that the current Majority Leader of the Senate is both a Democrat and a Mormon. That's about as rare as Romney being the Mormon, Republican governor of Massachusetts.
Speaking of Romney, he has no chance at the presidency (because of his party affiliation more so than his religious affiliation), so about the only purpose his campaign does serve IMHO is to bring the 'Can a Mormon be president?' issue to the table.

Posted by: errinfamilia | December 6, 2007 1:16 PM | Report abuse

"That said, I understand many would still object to that assertion. I personally agree with Romney's viewpoint on this. I do not believe that non-religious people are immoral, and I highly doubt Romney does either. But religion often exerts a highly positive influence on society, particularly in upholding the sanctity of the family."

I disagree.

"If you want to see religious persecution in action, look at the way former Mormons are treated by their erstwhile brothers and sisters. Especially in small-town Utah where the church forms the entire basis of one's existence--social, religious, employment, schooling--to consciously leave the religion is to incur the wrath of church members. When I lived in Utah I heard stories from friends who had been shunned by family members because they no longer attended Mormon functions and had disavowed the religion.

"

100% correct. And to a larger extent the gop itself. Square that, mormons on here. It only promotes family unity if you disavow your own individual freedom. If you act, walk, talk, do the same things as them, it keeps the family together. Is that freedom? Is that america? Or do those fascist principles run counter to america.

Square that SMALL problem, then come back and talk about how great it is to force your children to be exactly like you. Not in my america. think about the children. Think abou tthe future.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 1:16 PM | Report abuse

In pirticular

"Communicating With Dead-again, Biblical"

"We Become Gods-Biblical, again"

An insult and attack on God itself. To pretend to have the wisdom of God is blasphemy. Christians believe they will sit next to Jesus as equals, but aht does not make us God's. And those choosen few are the enlightened. Real christians. Not people how label themselves as mormons christans goats or any LABEL.

"Baptism For The Dead-look it up in the Bible"

"Multiple Wives-Give it a rest!"

Pertinant question.

And what is the role of women in the LDS? How many women are equal to one man? Are all equal in the LDS.

Not to mention the principles teaching of the religon (I'm not shy i fyou haven't noticed.)

A man and his wife rowed a boat from europe to the us in Jesus's time. The golden tablets that are missing (though so is our's so I'll won't beat you up to bad on that one :)). Eden is in missouri. Am I wrong in any of these broad characterizations?

I asked a mormon if they believe in seven heavens, she got very upset and refused to talk about religon.

Enlighten me. that is the goal of blogs. this is not an attack. This is the preseption of many. do not attack the messanger. Tell me why I'm wrong. if you are for mitt you may sway voters. But to attack the messanger will not get your boy elected. You must combat falsehoods with truths. If you cannot do that, then I do not feel sorry fo ryou people at all. Leave religon out of politics if you do not REALLY
want to talk about it

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 1:11 PM | Report abuse

So this year's storm season was an incredible bust. We had fewer serious storms, less wind strength, and more "borderline" storms that just barely and briefly flirted with "named status" before dissipating. The previous year's hurricane season was a little better -- just ten storms, five hurricanes, and an ACE of 78.5. Many of the numbers are falling so far below the historical average, one might conclude that something is radically different from the past.

Normally, when we reach that point, we ask a big, important question like this one: Is global warming sapping the world's supply of Accumulated Cyclone Energy?

We know the possible consequences of tinkering with our environment, causing unprecedented changes. This is how we approach the subject of man-made global warming. Wherever there is change, we turn immediately to global warming to explain it. Heat and cold, drought and downpour, famine and plenty -- all can be caused by global warming. It can cause more foliage and less foliage; a slower-spinning earth and a faster one; more snow and less snow; a sun-scarred desert world, or a new ice age. Climate change makes mountains grow and it makes mountains shrink.

It is not impossible that all (or at least most) of these theories are simultaneously true. But they also have the advantage of making global warming an unfalsifiable theory. Not only can no possible event disprove it, but it can actually serve as an explanation for any natural event worthy of note.

Back to the weak hurricane season, then. According to a new study, this year's drop in Accumulated Cyclone Energy may be caused by global warming. Higher temperatures cause more evaporation. Water conducts heat more efficiently than air, and so higher levels of atmospheric moisture cause a relative evening out of global air temperatures by region. This results in fewer and weaker cyclones, because wind is the result of variations in air temperature.

Am I making this last bit up? Hard to tell, isn't it?

But yes, I am. And if some scientist comes along and debunks my shameless, ad hoc abuse of basic scientific concepts, then at least we will have discovered one weather event -- perhaps the first in thirty years -- that global warming definitely did not cause

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Y2QwOTVhMzE5ZmI4ODEzMDc4OWI1ZmFhOWQzYjQzMDI=

Posted by: kingofzouk | December 6, 2007 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Chris, I don't agree that Romney's failure to cite specifics of his faith "didn't work." Or maybe his "failure" is just the lesser of two evils. If Romney really outlined LDS beliefs he'd end up drawing even sharper lines of distinction between himself and the evangelicals he's courting. LDS beliefs simply can't be squared with orthodox Christian thought, so Romney shouldn't try. Much wiser to stress commonality on moral issues. Of course, no one should have to go through this. I thought religious litmus tests were unAmerican.

Posted by: james_cramer | December 6, 2007 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Completely agree with Blarg. Mitt wnet way out of his way to demonize anyone who isn't a churchgoer--' Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom,' What BS.

And he very clearly stated that religion should be 'part of public life' . And whose religion andf what party of public life is he talking about? His speech was the very antithesis of JFk's.

Posted by: drindl | December 6, 2007 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Exactly castanea.

I lived around this with another cult Jehova Witnesses. They operate in the same bad ways.

As far as him seperating his religion that's BS, THEY would excommunicate a person based on any behavior.

It's horrible to people who dissagree, dissent whatever. In Fact in these Cults members are forbidden from reading/viewing things that show facts about deceptions, crookedness ect.

None will watch. They can't.
"Mormons and the illuminati"

Posted by: williamoo20008 | December 6, 2007 1:04 PM | Report abuse

As to the question of why Mitt Romney only mentioned being a Mormon once; it may be that we "Mormons" don't call ourselves Mormons--other people refer to us in that way. We call ourselves members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or, sometimes to abreviate, LDS. We believe the Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible and we study the Bible (the King James Version)as much, if not more than the Book of Mormon. Our focus is on Jesus Christ in our religious practices and doctrines.

What is the Southern Baptist's definition of a Christian? We believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Our Redeemer. I just painted a nativity scene for our float in the local Christmas parade. I painted images of the same personages I see honored in Baptist nativities and Catholic nativities. We worship the same God and believe the same framework. The particulars are different.

Please visit lds.org if you would like to know more.

Do not trust non-authorized versions of what we believe thrown about on the internet. We are not a cult, as some call us. We are people who believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior. Merry Christmas!

Posted by: ladyvantiger | December 6, 2007 1:03 PM | Report abuse

williamoo20008

If you believe so much that the Mormon religion is related to the Illuniati, you must be reading too much DAN BROWN. It make for a great headline, and a lively conversation, but again, what does it have to to with running the country. Look at what he did in Massachusets, and if you think that Mitt Romney led that state as an illuminatis, then show me the proof. Stating google video as your argument is as week as using Obamas 3rd grade paper against him.

Posted by: pogeypetey | December 6, 2007 1:03 PM | Report abuse

Sorry sailtowery. But making thsoe statemtns and yoru forced to calify. Give me the lines of where what you say is true.

It seems to me like the "Render to Ceaser" arguement republcains make. Leaving out the whole quote. One line a religon doe snot make.

you cannot make those kind of characterizations without providing evidence. What is yours? You got more than one obscure line to back it up. New testement or old?

I'm calling Bull SH*t

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 1:03 PM | Report abuse

Magic Underwear? Symbolic clothing in religion is very, very common. No different with the Mormons.
It is sad that williamoo20008 prides himself so much in his religious intolerance. I would love to know what the Mormons did to him personally for him to be so focused and vindictive towards them.
Ever heard of live and let live, william? This country was founded on freedom of religion as well as religious tolerance. The Mormons could believe the Tooth Fairy created the universe for all I care... it is their right to believe what they want to believe. I don't see any of the Mormons going out of their way to knock you or disparage your religious beliefs.

Posted by: errinfamilia | December 6, 2007 1:02 PM | Report abuse

With all due respect, Chris, your "WRONG" column is missing something big: Romney's total misunderstanding of the First Amendment. It guarantees not just freedom of religion but also freedom *from* religion. Americans who have no religion, or who are atheists, are still Americans. We are in no way inferior to Christians, Hindus, Pagans, Jews, Muslims, Mormons, etc., etc. When Romney said "Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom," he showed that he plans to continue the rhetoric of intolerance that has characterized G.W. Bush's reign of error. Chris, here is a request that your future commentary on politicians and their faith take into account the millions of Americans who choose not to have any religion at all in their personal lives.

Posted by: SeattleVoter | December 6, 2007 1:01 PM | Report abuse

I've been on the fence about the GOP candidates, but this speech pushed me over the edge to support Mitt Romney. He was gracious, articulate, passionate, and genuine - traits I haven't really seen from him up to this point.

I've known many Mormons throughout my life and, for the most part, they have been good people that care and worry about the same things I do...family, God, country, paying the mortgage, etc.

After reading some of the hate speech about Mormons on this blog - I'm even more convinced that Mitt is the right person for the job. Who cares about the specific doctrine of the Mormons, just as long as they love God with all their hearts and love their neighbors. If you are a fellow Christian out there...let's start acting like it.

Posted by: pccu | December 6, 2007 12:59 PM | Report abuse

"Separation of Church and State" was a winner? What speech were you listening to? Romney specifically and repeatedly said that religion should be a part of public life. He complained about secularists and said that this country is founded on Christianity. His speech totally went against the idea of separation of church and state. Your analysis is just plain wrong.

Posted by: Blarg | December 6, 2007 12:58 PM | Report abuse

If you want to see religious persecution in action, look at the way former Mormons are treated by their erstwhile brothers and sisters. Especially in small-town Utah where the church forms the entire basis of one's existence--social, religious, employment, schooling--to consciously leave the religion is to incur the wrath of church members. When I lived in Utah I heard stories from friends who had been shunned by family members because they no longer attended Mormon functions and had disavowed the religion.

The hierarchy of the church doesn't look at its members as anything other than sources of revenue. A tithe here and a tithe there and pretty soon you are talkin' real money.

Posted by: castanea | December 6, 2007 12:56 PM | Report abuse

"But what is Freedom? Rightly understood, A universal licence to be good." - Hartley Coleridge

I think that's what Romney meant by "Freedom require religion." He wasn't saying everyone has to belong to a certain religion or even believe in God, but he is saying that a free society needs religious influence to function well.

That said, I understand many would still object to that assertion. I personally agree with Romney's viewpoint on this. I do not believe that non-religious people are immoral, and I highly doubt Romney does either. But religion often exerts a highly positive influence on society, particularly in upholding the sanctity of the family.

Also, note that he couples the statement "freedom requires religion" with "religion requires freedom." His whole speech advocates religious liberty. In other words, let each person worship (or not) how, where, or what they may (which comes directly from a statement of LDS beliefs called "Articles of Faith"). So in saying society needs religion, he is not implying that any given individual must be religious, or that government ought to dictate personal spiritual beliefs.

Posted by: rachelesp | December 6, 2007 12:56 PM | Report abuse

"nothing to do with the presidency"

That's where we differ. I think it does.
And you now only so much about your own cult if you're not at the "Top" of it.

Admit it you are probably even for bidden from learning the truth or viewing the video Google video:
"Mormons and the illuminati"

My Grandma was in a different larger cult her whole life. I do know some things. This has a lot to do with who a person is and does nomatter what.
I don't want a cult believer having power over the world, military etc.

Posted by: williamoo20008 | December 6, 2007 12:54 PM | Report abuse

I'm LDS, been a mission, married itn Temple and these points are tired, old arguments.
Celestial Sex-never heard of, but I have no complaints.
Baptism For The Dead-look it up in the Bible
Communicating With Dead-again, Biblical
Magic Clothing.(underwear) -Most priests of most religions where "magic clothing". Mine are jsut under my clothes.
Blood Attonement-??
We Become Gods-Biblical, again
Multiple Wives-Give it a rest!
Blood Oaths-??
Spirit Babies-Where did this one come from?
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals-all religions can be accused being a cult and yes on the second one.
Living Profits Today-you bet!

Posted by: sailtowery | December 6, 2007 12:54 PM | Report abuse

"If he falls in line with where you want the country to be, then support him. If you feel that the country would be better off with someone else, then support someone else. It's pretty simple"

Right. The problem comes in the form of seperation of church and stae. The problem arises when you insert religon into politics, as romney and huck are doing. I wish they would all leave their religon out of it. Yet their court religous voters. Therefore they make their own bed. If they make their religon an issue they should be held to it.

Similar to the hypocrite Larry craig. He rallies against gays but is one. If a man says he is a chirstian he should be held to the tneants. If he is not he opens himself up as a liar or in craigs case a hypocrite. Many people frown on voting for liars and hypocrites. Call them crazy.

In romney's case he claims to be agaisnt illegal immagration while employing them. He claims to be a christian will not regocnizing the tenants.

this is my opipion. I speak fo rno one but my self. I could be wrong on all accounts. Speaking on personal experiance. I will never vote for a mormon, unless it is not an issue. And still probably not. I do not recognize them as christians due to their intolerance and rigidness. Altough my ancesotrs are minonite's. Very rigid. But I know why. There are a lot of devils out there, in their eyes. Who can you trust in a capitalist society? Who is not trying to get something from ya? In their closed societies at least they can trust their brothers and sisters. At least teh children can trust their parents as neither has anything to gain by wronging or stealing. To steal from one is to steal from yourself. These are the true teaching or christianity. We are not a christan nations. But we have many real christians here. If they would only release their fear of democratic socailism and take the reigns of american politics.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 12:51 PM | Report abuse

I'm Mormon, but I've got to agree with ravitchn, his speech resounds with the values of the "religious right", but left little room for non-belivers in politics...and that's just wrong.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Did Presidential hopeful Mitt Romney accomplish his goal of convincing people disinclined to vote for a Mormon to support him?

http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1232

.

Posted by: jeffboste | December 6, 2007 12:50 PM | Report abuse

"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin." - Mitt Romney today

It's pretty simple

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 12:49 PM | Report abuse

A very fine speech Romney gave. It shows that Huckabee and not Romney is the believer we need to worry about. Too bad Romney did not include non-believers in his American community.

Posted by: ravitchn | December 6, 2007 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Here...Let's see if my list of one word answers does anything to help:

Celestial Sex - Nope
Baptism For The Dead - Yup
Communicating With Dead - Yup
Magic Clothing - Nope
Blood Attonement - Nope
We Become Gods - Maybe
Multiple Wives - Not if it can be helped
Blood Oaths - Nope
Spirit Babies - Nope
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals - Nope And Yup
Living Profits Today - Yup...and it's "Prophets"

Now, do you really think a discussion of these doctrines can be had in one-liners?

This is about politics, not religion...and my one-line responses saying "Nope" are not because I don't know where you're quoting from, it's because you misstate what we teach.

C'mon...it's a religious bone to pick and has nothing to do with the presidency.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 12:45 PM | Report abuse

Why are you afraid of the truth about Mormonism being discussed? His speech answered nothing to me and this man changes principles like the wind.

Communicating With Dead
Magic Clothing
Blood Attonement
We Become Gods
Multiple Wives
Blood Oaths
Spirit Babies
Celestial Sex
Baptism For The Dead
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals
Living Profits Today

See Google video:
"Mormons and the illuminati"

Posted by: williamoo20008 | December 6, 2007 12:45 PM | Report abuse

The correct line is that the Al Qaeda crowd are terrorists, who happen to be Muslims, not Muslim terrorists. Just like Romney wants to say he is a politician who happens to be a Mormon, not a Mormon politician.

Posted by: MattConnolly | December 6, 2007 12:42 PM | Report abuse

The not-so-hidden message in Hillary's 'joke' about Obambi's kindergarten record is that her oppos not only have recorded his life from that far back but actually found his teacher to attest to such genius. And, there are those who say she doesn't have a sense of humor.

Posted by: kingofzouk | December 6, 2007 12:42 PM | Report abuse

The correct line is that the Al Qaeda crowd are terrorists, who happen to be Muslims, not Muslim terrorists. Just like Romney wants to say he is a politician who happens to be a Mormon, not a Mormon politician.

Posted by: MattConnolly | December 6, 2007 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Romney's relationship with Mormon authorities: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00066.htm

It's long past time for major news orgs to look into this story. As a university professor, Judith Dushku shouldn't be hard to find.

Posted by: misterjrthed | December 6, 2007 12:41 PM | Report abuse

I'd like some "Living Profits Today"

Posted by: eric_quist | December 6, 2007 12:39 PM | Report abuse

Celestial Sex? Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

What the hell is an Attonement? Is it related to "Atonement", or just more evidence of ignorance?

Posted by: gsmith | December 6, 2007 12:37 PM | Report abuse

williamoo20008... What on earth does any of that drivle you spewed have to do with being PRESIDENT? Lets assume you are correct in all your assertions (YOU'RE NOT), you might find a better forum for you views in a comparative religion class. Republican or Democrat... examine his political views, and make your decision. If he falls in line with where you want the country to be, then support him. If you feel that the country would be better off with someone else, then support someone else. It's pretty simple. The founders of this country made it simple for people like you to vote. Leave your personal views/attacks on Mormonism out of the POLITICAL PROCESS.

Posted by: pogeypetey | December 6, 2007 12:37 PM | Report abuse

"I doubt you're concerned about how Mormonism would affect his presidency. Your a blogger with a religious bone to pick with Mormons in general, and that's a different topic"

No, I am concerened. That's some wacked out cult stuff If I ever heard of one. I am no Blogger by the way.

Celestial Sex
Baptism For The Dead
Communicating With Dead
Magic Clothing
Blood Attonement
We Become Gods
Multiple Wives
Blood Oaths
Spirit Babies
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals
Living Profits Today

See Google video:
"Mormons and the illuminati"

Posted by: williamoo20008 | December 6, 2007 12:35 PM | Report abuse

"HARRY REID is a D-NEVADA, and SENATE MAJORITY LEADER. A Democrat in every way"

you got two. How many practicing mormons in america again? And you mock me because you mention two. What about real mormons on the street. I've NEVER met a non-republcian mormon. NEVER. Personlly.

I have met people that claimed to be from utah and persecuted. YEt they to are republcains. MAkes no sense to me. But it doesn't have to. That is what you republcains do not understand. Freedom is for all. Not just what I agree with or view as what a christian is. Do morns follow the smae christian tenant? Or is it be exactly like me or your going to burn? Or whatever punishment NOT being a mormon is. Hwo is that differant from the muslims? aNd before you say they don't kill, I beg to differ.

Now electing a president that represents all americans is a differant story all together. People have to make individual choices based on a number of things. Individual freedom means not being forced to vote for anyone That is not democracy. The gop voting as the borg, one brian is not america. With their loyalty oaths.


The gop is done.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 12:34 PM | Report abuse

I honestly don't understand why anyone breathlessly waited for this speech. People who are so intolerant that they wring their hands over the flavor of your faith are not likely to change their vote one way or the other. I just don't see where this gets Romney, and it makes me hanker for a candidate who will honestly say, I don't practice, or I don't believe, or I don't like organized religion, or it's none of your business, or it has no place in politics, or all of the above.

Posted by: cdavidj | December 6, 2007 12:32 PM | Report abuse

It just keeps getting sillier and sillier. The southern baptists just proclaimed that Mormons aren't christians, Huckabee had to duck that question at the debate because he would offend his followers if he said they were (he knows perfectly well that his faith says they aren't) and everyone if he said they weren't. Romney says he is, no surprise there. meanwhile Huckabee claims he's a christian leader in his political ads - as if he's only going to lead christians?. Thompson tries to tell us he attends church while in Tennessee (which is never) but not in McLean Va where he lives and there's a church on every corner. Republicans brought this on themselves and I am enjoying every minute of it.

Posted by: JoeT1 | December 6, 2007 12:32 PM | Report abuse

It's called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", not "the Church of Latter Day Saints" as the author of this article wrote. Hard to have too much confidence in an article or a paper that gets such easy, obvious, readily verifiable details wrong.

Posted by: adamflake2003 | December 6, 2007 12:31 PM | Report abuse

Pretty darn good speech. Far more unifying and comprehensive vision than the Hucksters "evangelicals only" ad.

As for timing - more perfect than even mitt could have hoped for. This presidential moment, in stark contrast to Huck's 'oh crap, moment' - Wayne Dumond, plus the reports that he commuted the sentences of more felons, murderers and rapists than the the six neighboring states combined. Two Arkansas prosecutors actually sued Huck to get him to slow down his releases of dangerous criminals.

Yes, Mitt has had illegals mowing his lawn, - but he never, ever let rapists out early because he felt sorry for them.

Posted by: jprice1 | December 6, 2007 12:31 PM | Report abuse

I dare any Newsperson to ask Romney if he ever Takes off his "Magic Underwear" Ha Ha.


Is Christianity The this stuff:
Celestial Sex.
Baptism For The Dead.
Communicating With Dead.
Magic Clothing.(underwear)
Blood Attonement.
We Become Gods.
Multiple Wives.
Blood Oaths.
Spirit Babies.
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals.
Living Profits Today.

Watch Google video
"Mormons and the illuminati"

Posted by: williamoo20008 | December 6, 2007 12:31 PM | Report abuse

williamoo20008: Why would Mitt talk about all those things? They've been talked to death over and over all over the internet. Mitt said what he needed to say:

"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin."

I doubt you're concerned about how Mormonism would affect his presidency. Your a blogger with a religious bone to pick with Mormons in general, and that's a different topic.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 12:31 PM | Report abuse

Romney's remark that "freedom requires religion" was a gratuitous insult to the millions of Americans who practice no religion--and a remark that reveals a level of ignorance I had not expected from Romney. Such an idea is dangerous and suggests that he would move toward significantly injecting religion into our government in ways even G.W. Bush has not.

Posted by: wrogers2 | December 6, 2007 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Thanks william for the tip. I will.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 12:28 PM | Report abuse

The speech may not hurt Huckabiuliani much, but it sure won't help their team efforts in the early states.

It may be overshadowed by news stories on kinfolk of a murder victim blaming Huckabee for the Missouri killing.

Posted by: WakeWashington | December 6, 2007 12:28 PM | Report abuse

Oh brother...

HARRY REID is a D-NEVADA, and SENATE MAJORITY LEADER. A Democrat in every way, he has a rating of 95 out of a 100 in voting with the Democrats. As to MITT ROMNEY, his candidacy shows that there is a great tolerance amongst MORMONS for differing political veiws. Also, where in the BIBLE or whatevever SCRIPTURE you believe in does it say anything about making it to heaven through POLITICS? Leave religion to the religious, and politics to the politicians.

Posted by: pogeypetey | December 6, 2007 12:28 PM | Report abuse

LOL: "Living Profits Today"

Was that a typo or were you making fun of the church's prosperity?

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 12:27 PM | Report abuse

>Anyone ever met a democrat that is also a mormon?

Ever hear of Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic majority leader and a practicing Mormon?

Posted by: rwitmer | December 6, 2007 12:26 PM | Report abuse

There's always a bad apple ( in their eyes).

Maybe I haven't been aroudn enough mormons. I have been around some. I dated a mormon girl for a time. Nice girl. But lost in a world of imaginary rules. The most intolerant people I have met religously have been mormons. But I could be wrong. Sorry to paint with such a wide brush. No I know. that is the purpose of blogs. To pool knowldege and grow. That's why lying propognadists sabotaging teh convo anger me. You have helped me grow and relize the error of my ways, and my intolerance. Thank you.

Now republcians. Can you do the same? Why do you blog republcains, if you refuse to chagne or grow? What is the point? I you refuse to acknoledge truths, like the mormon truth was just presented to me. If you do not acknowledge truths, why have a conversation? What is the point?

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 12:26 PM | Report abuse

"The church of republicism"?

Historically pretty true...but I'm asking myself these days if the republicans even want me.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 12:25 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti said: "Teh church of republicism. It should be called. Mormons are the most religously intolerant religous people I've met."

Sounds like somebody is more interested insulting Mormons than talking about anything useful.

Posted by: eric_quist | December 6, 2007 12:25 PM | Report abuse

His speech answered nothing. Shame on fellow christians for not pointing out differences.
Is Christianity The this stuff:
Celestial Sex.
Baptism For The Dead.
Communicating With Dead.
Magic Clothing.(underwear)
Blood Attonement.
We Become Gods.
Multiple Wives.
Blood Oaths.
Spirit Babies.
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals.
Living Profits Today.

Watch Google video
"Mormons and the illuminati"

Posted by: williamoo20008 | December 6, 2007 12:24 PM | Report abuse

"JKrishnamurti said...
"Anyone ever met a democrat that is also a mormon?"

Uh, Harry Reid?
"

No, said a democrat. Have you seen his voting record. I'm not talking about moderate sabotuers republcains who claim to be democrats. I'm talking about real voting republicans. Leave moderates out.

To shay, though. :)

You got me, and I'm living in nevada. I don't see his as a dem though. I'll give respect where it's due

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 12:22 PM | Report abuse

Mayor of Hooper, Utah is a Mormon Democratic.

Posted by: crisattopten | December 6, 2007 12:21 PM | Report abuse

Teh church of republicism. It should be called.

Mormons are the most religously intolerant religous people I've met. Fragile existance. Living life in an invisable cage. Sad in a free country.

"Freedom requires religion"?!

Did he really say that? The state of the gop. Very sad that he would say that. In america no less. Prerec.'s for freedom? That is not freedom. Next it will be" Being a republcain is neccesary for freedom." Fascists always love freedom. Freedom for themselves. Everyone else must bow below them. I'm not bowing.

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 12:19 PM | Report abuse

Anyone ever met a democrat that is also a mormon?

I'm Mormon and before I moved to Texas I went to church with the leader of the Teamsters Union in Las Vegas. There's tons of Mormon Democrats. The governor of SLC is a democrat. Utah has has senators that are democrats...but we're mostly republicans, and proudly so.

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 12:18 PM | Report abuse

JKrishnamurti said...
"Anyone ever met a democrat that is also a mormon?"

Uh, Harry Reid?

Posted by: kenobi_wan_obi | December 6, 2007 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Anyone ever met a non-Republican Mormon? How about the Majority Leader of the United States Senate, Harry Reid of Nevada?
Or former Congressman and presidential candidate Mo Udall?

Posted by: BorincanoDC | December 6, 2007 12:16 PM | Report abuse

thecrisis said: "Romney openly put his oath to Mormonism above his oath to the country"

Mitt Romney said: "Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin."

Was that too ambiguous for you?

Posted by: elbeau | December 6, 2007 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Anyone ever met a democrat that is also a mormon?

I haven't. I've met morons who were on one side. I'v met people that claim to be persecuted by mormons, gays skin heads and anarachists, that are not democrats. My personal experiance.

Am I wrong? Enlighten me? Anyone ever met a non-republcain mormon

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 12:10 PM | Report abuse

"Americans do not respect believers of convenience. Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs, even to gain the world." A very nice turn of phrase.

Nice turn of phrase? This totally describes his hypocritic flip-flops on abortion and gay rights. May it come back to haunt him in a thousand attack ads.

Posted by: eidolon | December 6, 2007 12:09 PM | Report abuse

One question that every candidate should be asked is whether his allegiance,when he becomes President,is to the Bible or to the Constitution.

Posted by: morryb | December 6, 2007 12:02 PM | Report abuse

The presidential seal. The flags. The cheering sycophants. All in all not a talk that will seriously be embraced by any side. Anyone looking for a Kennedy speech was disappointed by the non-skeptical audience. Anyone looking for a contrast and compare between what an officer of the church and enforcer of the faith (that would be Bishop Romney) and Mainstream Christianity had to be disappointed.

Cheesiest moment - "Muslims pray alot"

Posted by: WiltonManorsSteve | December 6, 2007 11:59 AM | Report abuse

I thought Joseph Smith, under mounting pressure from congregants in the way-back-when, officially changed the title of his religious group to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Posted by: laloomis | December 6, 2007 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Romney is yesterday's news. Huckabee just went ahead in South Carolina.

Romney looks desperate and pandering for votes, in a failing campaign.

Posted by: river845 | December 6, 2007 11:58 AM | Report abuse

I didn't get to hear or see Romney's speech. Thanks for the update. The Governour alludes to "the founders" and a religious test in error. The founders formed a republic of states in confederation with the vast majority still holding a religious bar favouring Christianity, the hijackers (Madison et al) cobbled together a civil democracy which led to a God free document and government. George Mason and Patrick Henry both "smelled the rats" in the new arrangement. To be fair a president today can be God fearing, god free or god less.

Posted by: dave_sheehan64 | December 6, 2007 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Romney is a true politician. By this, I mean he has great delivery, is very charismatic and can be a bold, two-faced liar who says anything to get elected and can give a speech on his religion in which he appears to be saying very important things but ultimately says nothing of value at all.

"Freedom requires religion"?! What kind of a nutcase would make a statement like that? I guess Romney doesn't think that nonbelievers could ever really be free in this country. Or maybe that's what he intends to guarantee if he gets elected. I'd rather not wait to find out.

Romney openly put his oath to Mormonism above his oath to the country when he said "if my religion gets in the way of my candidacy, so be it." He cares more about Mormonism than his country. Lets grant him that wish by allowing his religion to get in the way of his candidacy.

What a horrible speech to give to the tolerant, secular American people.

Posted by: thecrisis | December 6, 2007 11:57 AM | Report abuse

He said, "I'm not sure that we fully appreciate the profound implications of our tradition of religious liberty -- (patronizing)

He's wrong about the Cathedrals, they are often filled (this is stereotype an Europhobia, Catholics will take deep offense -- the Vatican is empty???)

He said, I have visited many of the magnificent cathedrals in Europe. They are so inspired ... so grand ... so empty. Raised up over generations, long ago, so many of the cathedrals now stand as the postcard backdrop to societies just too busy or too 'enlightened' to venture inside and kneel in prayer.

The link of Islam to violence is a big mistake (it's what the Pope did to set off protests) (this would set off protests, if msulims were lsitening, indeed he may still have to apologize and clarify, messy business)

He said, Infinitely worse is the other extreme, the creed of conversion by conquest: violent Jihad, murder as martyrdom... killing Christians, Jews, and Muslims with equal indifference. These radical Islamists do their preaching not by reason or example, but in the coercion of minds and the shedding of blood. We face no greater danger today than theocratic tyranny, and the boundless suffering these states and groups could inflict if given the chance

(Mostly they kill other Muslims, why list Muslims last?)

More on Islam:

He said, America faces a new generation of challenges. Radical violent Islam seeks to destroy us.

The only thing he has good to say about Muslims is they pray a lot, which is hardly a nuanced or penetrating observation

He said, I love the profound ceremony of the Catholic Mass, the approachability of God in the prayers of the Evangelicals, the tenderness of spirit among the Pentecostals, the confident independence of the Lutherans, the ancient traditions of the Jews, unchanged through the ages, and the commitment to frequent prayer of the Muslims. As I travel across the country and see our towns and cities, I am always moved by the many houses of worship with their steeples, all pointing to heaven, reminding us of the source of life's blessings


Bad example, where are the Muslims and Jews:

He said, In this time of peril, someone suggested that they pray. But there were objections. 'They were too divided in religious sentiments', what with Episcopalians and Quakers, Anabaptists and Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Catholics.

So, why is Romney Mormon?

He said, I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers -- I will be true to them and to my beliefs.

If he was born the son of Jihadists, he'd be a Jihadist. Religion as tribe.

Nothing about any personal experience of God or God's grace. Most of the country does not care what he thinks about God. The evangicals, who do, want to hear something personal and emotive, not a lecture everyone is free to do what they want (freedom is the opposite of order, and generally a hippy sentiment). The Evangelicals want to know everyone believes in the same God -- here was the chance to talk about the 3 great (Christian, Muslim, Jewish) faiths and the wonderful diversity that God works through them as each of us is diverse but we have 99% the same DNA -- DNA being the order.

Finally, here is a foolish sentiment, along the lines of I will take my ball and go home if you won't let me play:

He said, Some believe that such a confession of my faith will sink my candidacy. If they are right, so be it. But I think they underestimate the American people. Americans do not respect believers of convenience. Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs, even to gain the world

In fact, this is the worse line of the speech. It has the following adverse effects. 1 -- it calls into question his sincerity, his weak point and flip flopping, would he in fact sell out on principles he believes, if he believes any and 2 -- it reminds the evangelicals that this is no confession, or if it is, then they cannot relate to it

I saw my father march with Martin Luther King. I saw my parents provide compassionate care to others, in personal ways to people nearby, and in just as consequential ways in leading national volunteer movements." -- "compassionate" borrowed from the Bush playbook --
what did he do, not his dad? --
all of a sudden he is pro civil rights?


This is a bad line: we welcome our nation's symphony of faith." Is it the royal "we"? Sounds chocolaty like the Hershey bar by that name. Plus sounds snobbish. Do they have symphonies in Iowa?

Bottom line, it was a speech about John Adams, not about mitt. It was as political, not personal speech. He should of talked about how God supports him through his wife's illness.

Posted by: MattConnolly | December 6, 2007 11:55 AM | Report abuse

> (patronizing)

He's wrong about the Cathedrals, they are often filled (this is stereotype an Europhobia, Catholics will take deep offense -- the Vatican is empty???)

>

The link of Islam to violence is a big mistake (it's what the Pope did to set off protests) (this would set off protests, if msulims were lsitening, indeed he may still have to apologize and clarify, messy business)

>

(Mostly they kill other Muslims, why list Muslims last?)

More on Islam:

>

The only thing he has good to say about Muslims is they pray a lot, which is hardly a nuanced or penetrating observation

>


Bad example, where are the Muslims and Jews:

>

So, why is Romney Mormon?

>

If he was born the son of Jihadists, he'd be a Jihadist. Religion as tribe.

Nothing about any personal experience of God or God's grace. Most of the country does not care what he thinks about God. The evangicals, who do, want to hear something personal and emotive, not a lecture everyone is free to do what they want (freedom is the opposite of order, and generally a hippy sentiment). The Evangelicals want to know everyone believes in the same God -- here was the chance to talk about the 3 great (Christian, Muslim, Jewish) faiths and the wonderful diversity that God works through them as each of us is diverse but we have 99% the same DNA -- DNA being the order.

Finally, here is a foolish sentiment, along the lines of I will take my ball and go home if you won't let me play:

>

In fact, this is the worse line of the speech. It has the following adverse effects. 1 -- it calls into question his sincerity, his weak point and flip flopping, would he in fact sell out on principles he believes, if he believes any and 2 -- it reminds the evangelicals that this is no confession, or if it is, then they cannot relate to it

Bottom line, it was a speech about John Adams, not about Mitt. It was as political, not personal speech. He should have talked about how God supports him through his wife's illness.

Posted by: MattConnolly | December 6, 2007 11:51 AM | Report abuse

How dare Romney quote the Bible (Matthew 25: 31-40)and spout his drivel about equality while campaigning against illegal immigrants and denying gays basic civil rights. All I ask is that one be consistent. Either evidence your faith with your works, or shut up about it. If you're going to be a Christian, say you're a Christian, then doggone it ACT like a Christian.

Posted by: hrhcapdef1 | December 6, 2007 11:51 AM | Report abuse

You're missing the point.

Romney can't talk about how important separation of church and state is in one breath, and in the next talk about how crucial it is that a religious person be elected president. He can't say that his religion doesn't matter, then tell the crowd that Jesus is his lord and savior.

He's trying to eat his cake and have it too by courting the votes of people who despise the wall of separation between church and state while at the same time trying to hide behind it.

The Religious Right movement has spent the last twenty-five years building the GOP into a party of religious intolerance. No one should be surprised when they're *gasp* religiously intolerant.

Posted by: courtnew | December 6, 2007 11:48 AM | Report abuse

Romney will not be the nominee. So who cares.

I am waiting for some responses, other than attacking the intel, from these war hawks who have been pumping WW3. Not much backing down. A lot of attacking teh messanger. I want clinton. If she was sinking before, now she will plumet. as will the gop feild for believing and following a criminal enterprise. poo judgement. Not a good charcteristic gop and moderates :)

I emailed Lee Bollinger, the presidnet of columbia who took it on himself to become the secratary of state. Made attacks and based on faulty intel. Almost caused an international incident. Played the role of bush's pet monkey. What does HE have to say now? Better to leave politcs to the professionals. Wait.... :)

Posted by: JKrishnamurti | December 6, 2007 11:43 AM | Report abuse

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