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Examining the "birther" movement

1. A new Washington Post/ABC News national poll shows that one in five adults either believe or guess that President Barack Obama was not born in the United States although that number jumps to one in three self-identifying Republicans.

The results make clear that while suspicion about the president's place of birth is far from widespread, there is a certain -- and not entirely insignificant -- segment of the population that carries doubts.

(For the record, the proof that Obama was born in Hawaii is indisputable; Hawaii Gov. Linda Lingle, a Republican, said as much in a recent interview.)

Seventy seven percent of adults polled said Obama was born in the United States with a near-majority (48 percent) able to name Hawaii as the president's birthplace. Twenty percent said he was not born in the U.S. with nine percent citing "solid evidence" to back up that belief and 10 percent calling it a suspicion only.

Not surprisingly, doubts about Obama's citizenship were lowest among Democrats and highest among Republicans.

Fifteen percent of self-identified Democrats said cited solid evidence (six percent), suspicions (seven percent) or no opinion (one percent) about whether the President was born in the U.S. Thirty-one percent of Republicans had suspicions (19 percent) or solid evidence (11 percent) that Obama was not born in the country.

Establishment Republicans have done everything they can to downplay chatter about Obama's citizenship, believing, rightly, that it is a stone-cold loser for the party. But, elements of the GOP base seem unwilling to leave the issue behind and a handful of candidates around the country -- including former Rep. J.D. Hayworth who is running for the Senate in Arizona -- seem unwilling to rule out the possibility in what seems like an attempt to win the votes of the most conservative of conservatives within the GOP base.

2. In an increasingly nasty war of words in Arkansas, the Service Employees International Union is up with radio ads that seek to blunt the impact of President Barack Obama's endorsement of Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D) over Lt. Gov. Bill Halter (D) earlier this week.

"I'm a strong supporter of President Obama," says one person in the SEIU ad. "But I'm voting for Bill Halter," chimes in another.

The SEIU ad comes less than 24 hours after Lincoln's campaign released a radio ad in which Obama praised her for her work on health care and said she was "leading the fight to hold Wall Street accountable". In the SEIU ad, Lincoln is accused of voting to "bail out Wall Street" and refusing to "take on the big insurance companies".

The dust-up between the White House and organized labor is only the latest example of hardball politics in advance of the May 18 primary vote. Recently a group known as Americans for Job Security ran an ad hammering Halter for outsourcing jobs -- a commercial that drew widespread criticism for its racial overtones. SEIU is now up with a television ad responding to the AJS commercial.

A late April poll sponsored by the liberal Daily Kos blog, which is helping to raise money for Halter, showed Lincoln with a 43 percent to 35 percent edge, a gap confirmed by private polling as well.

3. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin threw her endorsement behind former HP executive Carly Fiorina in the California Senate race and, in so doing, bypassed another candidate who had drawn support from national conservatives.

"Carly is the commonsense conservative that California needs and our country could sure use in these trying times," wrote Palin in a Facebook post announcing the endorsement.

Palin described herself as a "huge proponent of contested primaries" but said that she felt compelled to wade into the race because Fiorina's opponent is a "liberal member of the GOP who seems to bear almost no difference to [California Sen. Barbara] Boxer."

Palin is referring to former Rep. Tom Campbell who, polling suggests, is running even or slightly ahead of Fiorina in the state's June 8 primary. Campbell appears to be benefiting from name identification built up over his last two unsuccessful Senate bids in 1992 an 1998 while Fiorina is hoping several million dollars in personal donations will put her in the winner's circle.

Left out of Palin's endorsement calculation entirely is state Assemblyman Chuck DeVore, who had previously won the backing of South Carolina Sen. Jim DeMint and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, and is running as the lone "true" conservative in the race. DeVore dismissed the endorsement as not particularly meaningful, insisting that no one individual can deliver the grassroots of the party.

It's hard to gauge how influential -- if at all -- Palin's endorsement will be for Fiorina but it does make clear that the former Alaska governor (or her political team) has a pragmatic side; Fiorina isn't as conservative as DeVore but she has a far better chance of actually becoming the nominee.

4. With only 11 days left before Kentucky voters choose between Secretary of State Trey Grayson and opthalmalogist Rand Paul as the GOP Senate nominee, polling appears to be all over the map about the state of the race.

A Tarrance Group poll conducted for the American Future Fund, a conservative group based in Iowa, showed Paul at 41 percent to Grayson's 40 percent. But, a Research 2000 poll conducted for the Lexington Herald Leader gave Paul a far wider 44 percent to 32 percent edge over Grayson.

To date, the only publicly released polls that have showed Grayson running close to Paul are either from his campaign or from AFF, which launched ads attacking Paul on Thursday.

"Kentucky values are being threatened," says the AFF ad's narrator before detailing Paul's positions on a nuclear Iran and his alleged out-of-step positions on coal and agriculture. As those positions are recited by the narrator, a cuckoo clock is shown on screen. The ad, which also has a radio component, is running in the Lexington media market, according to a source familiar with the buy.

The Democratic Senate primary, which has been largely overshadowed by the GOP contest, is also close. Lt. Gov. Dan Mongiardo takes 39 percent to 32 percent for state Attorney General Jack Conway in the Herald-Leader poll.

5. If it's Friday, it's time for the Live Fix chat! From 11 am to noon today we take on all comers. Got a question about what Tuesday's primaries meant? Who's going to win the Pennsylvania 12th special election? What's the best bbq place between here and Richmond? Whose going to win the NBA playoffs?

You've got questions, we've got answers. Bring. It. On.

PS -- We'll be live VIDEO chatting (technology!) about our latest Friday Line.

By Chris Cillizza  |  May 7, 2010; 7:00 AM ET
Categories:  Morning Fix  
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Next: Utah's Bob Bennett faces stiff political test Saturday

Comments

I am an agnostic, but I object to replacing a protestant justice with another Catholic -- that makes six Catholics and three Jews and since religion has come to play such a large part in politics these days, I don't like the inequity. I'm also a bit fed up with Harvard law school thinking coating our justice pool. Surely there are judges who didn't go to Harvard!!!!

Posted by: beaone | May 10, 2010 2:50 PM | Report abuse

The Birthers are just as foolish as those silly twits who have told us for years that Bush wasn't truly elected.
The Birthers are just getting more press for their idiocy, because many memebers of the media bought, hook line and sinker, the silly idea that Bush was "appointed", not elected.

Posted by: kesac | May 10, 2010 7:08 AM | Report abuse

I'm of two minds on the birthers. I think they're idiots but I love that they waste their time on this "issue". If they weren't working on this they might be working on something real.
============================
I look forward to every political race this fall, when politicians are asked:
"Do you believe that President Obama was born in the US and is a citizen?" What will the birthers do, when some of their Republicans say he is a citizen? What will Conservative (but sane) Republicans do when their candidates say it deserves to be investigated? Sounds like a win-win for us Democrats.

Posted by: MitchinADK | May 9, 2010 5:45 PM | Report abuse

The poll identifies the percentage of people who deny objective reality. Obama's birth certificate is probably the most scrutinized in history. These people probably also believe that aliens landed in New Mexico, a conspiracy on John Kennedy's death, etc. You can think of other myths they perpetuate.

Posted by: withersb | May 9, 2010 1:02 PM | Report abuse

I love that 14% that believe Barack Hussein Obama is a foreigner. They are doing us a valuable service. They are keeping all the snooty Obamaniacs riled up and defensive.

==

And there you have it.  This is all that remains of the noble outlook that we called conservatism .. it's fun to rile people up.  Small government?  Bah.  Unintrusive laws?  Fuggeddaboudit.  Personal responsibility?  Pshaw.  Nope, just poking at the animal in the cage with a stick.  That's it.  The pleasure of being a crude nuisance.

That's what conservatism is reduced to.

And there are so many we can thanks for this.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 8, 2010 10:20 PM | Report abuse

That's an odd argument, battleground. Someone states a lie, repeatedly, and it's protesting too much to point out that

IT IS A LIE.

Obama got hit with this crap all through the campaign. The reason that it is necessary to keep stating that

IT IS A LIE

is that there are a sufficient number of gullible people out there that matter. If we didn't keep stating that

IT IS A LIE

then those on the right would go see, they don't dare deny it! Nice job of trying to play Catch 22, but homey don't play that game. Oh, did I mention that

IT IS A LIE?

Thought so.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 8, 2010 8:31 PM | Report abuse

I love that 14% that believe Barack Hussein Obama is a foreigner. They are doing us a valuable service. They are keeping all the snooty Obamaniacs riled up and defensive.

Also, if the birther beliefs are so ridiculous and incredible, why does the vast, liberal ObamaMedia waste so much ink denying it and trying to discredit the true believers?

Seems like they are protesting a bit too much.

Hmmmmm!

Posted by: battleground51 | May 8, 2010 7:05 PM | Report abuse

These 14% of Americans are what the movie "Idiocracy" was based on.

Posted by: A-Voter | May 8, 2010 3:14 PM | Report abuse

Agreed, jaxas.. there should be no mention of these fools in the press that doesn't rest solidly atop a foundation if pure condemnation just short of incitement. CC makes passing mention of the absurdity but then continues with the happy gush. This is the Ku Klux Klan without the sheets. Stop treating them as a real movement, CC.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 8, 2010 2:26 PM | Report abuse

Wow! ABC reports breathlessly, eyes bulging out of their sockets, hair all askew in "Excuse me if I am out of breath" fashion that a whopping 14% of Americans believe that Obama was born abroad. I am all atwitter. I am nonplussed. That's conclusive then right? If the 14% of "Americans" who hate anyone who doesn't put out the same odors they do say Obama is disqualified then its pretty much academic from here on. The "authority"--that 14% that ABC and the rest of the mainstream media seem to think is the voice of America--has spoken.

Look folks. This is carny hypnotism. It is a diversion. It is like looking in on apeep show. Let me put it to you this way: How many of that 14% to you think really, deep down in their heart of hearts believe this asinine heap of manure? Probably on a fraction of those that sleep in feces on the street.

My point is this: This is an attention getting scam. That 14% really don't believe any of this but are absolutely astonished that the mainstream media gives them so much attention just for acting so passionate about it. They have caught on to the same game that Fox News plays all day. The more outrageous and shocking the accusation, the more likely this dweeby, silly, ratings hungry media will cover it.

As evidence, look to the stories that are being talked about by the rest of the world and you will see that this one is looked at in the same light as: MAN IN MALI BORN WITH TWO HEADS.

Posted by: jaxas70 | May 8, 2010 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Hey, pal, "examine" this.

"'Let's be very honest about what this is about. This is not about bashing Democrats. It's not about taxes. They have no idea what the Boston Tea party was about. They don't know their history at all. It's about hating a black man in the White House,' she said on MSNBC's 'The Countdown' with Keith Olbermann Thursday evening. 'This is racism straight up and is nothing but a bunch of teabagging rednecks. There is no way around that.'"

Thank you, Janeane...

Posted by: broadwayjoe | May 8, 2010 9:39 AM | Report abuse

You mention the AFF poll to say Kentucky numbers are all over the map, yet the AFF has ties to both McConnell and Grayson's campaign. http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20100507/NEWS0106/5070367/1008/NEWS01

As far as I'm concerned, that makes AFF polls 'internal polls' so that all independent polls show Rand Paul with double digit leads. Plus, the AFF poll was taken BEFORE the last three independent polls released which showed Paul with an 18%, 12% and 15% lead over Grayson, respectively.

Posted by: sailingaway1 | May 8, 2010 9:27 AM | Report abuse

Poor lonely Ped.

You have not utilized a single fact on this entire thread. Just juice bar snark.

Our entire army had been gone from Vietnam for two years at that time. The failure to support the south can be laid squarly at the feet of the cowardly liberals in congress. But by then the stall had worked. Communism in se Asia was no longer expanding.

You seem to have no grasp of baseline reality. Only your little angry leftist world. You did nit refute a single fault with the socialist paradise. I don't really care. If you like it there fine. Happy travels. But don't pretend like everything there is just peachy while in America there is no hope. November is coming. There is hope.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 8, 2010 8:37 AM | Report abuse

Poor lonely Ped.

You have not utilized a single fact on this entire thread. Just juice bar snark.

Our entire army had been gone from Vietnam for two years at that time. The failure to support the south can be laid squarly at the feet of the cowardly liberals in congress. But by then the stall had worked. Communism in se Asia was no longer expanding.

You seem to have no grasp of baseline reality. Only your little angry leftist world. You did nit refute a single fault with the socialist paradise. I don't really care. If you like it there fine. Happy travels. But don't pretend like everything there is just peachy while in America there is no hope. November is coming. There is hope.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 8, 2010 8:35 AM | Report abuse

Thanks 12. That sounds horrid, selling a quarter million of stock for the price of a new iPad. Ugh.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 8, 2010 12:28 AM
------------------------------------
Here's what happened: some institution sold $2.7 million dollars of stock for $670 to some other institution. The second buyer waited 10 minutes and probably sold the stock for $2.7 million dollars.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 8, 2010 2:36 AM | Report abuse

The stalling in Vietnam and Korea absolutely stopped the communist expansion of the time. We won.

==

ah so that's why we left the place from the roof of the embassy in 1975 and VN is now Communist. That's winnin', son.

My god you are such a bloody fool

Posted by: Noacoler | May 8, 2010 12:56 AM | Report abuse

Those who conspired to make it possible for an illegal alien with a forged birth certificate to usurp the Presidency.

==

you're what we used to call "certifiable"

Posted by: Noacoler | May 8, 2010 12:50 AM | Report abuse

Thanks 12. That sounds horrid, selling a quarter million of stock for the price of a new iPad. Ugh.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 8, 2010 12:28 AM | Report abuse

@brigade,

I try to take a look at the market every 15 minutes or so, but I missed the entire dip and recovery. When I heard it on the radio, frankly, I thought they were dipsh**.

I immediately thought of 1987, when the dip was exactly like this, only bigger. The NYSE/NASD put in automatic circuit breakers after 1987 to stop this kind of program trading action.

And here, it happened again, although to a smaller degree.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 11:31 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"The trades on Accenture showing 1 penny a share was not a joke. It appears that some poor schmuck sold nearly 67,000 shares at 1 cent. That trade will be rescinded. Maybe we'll hear about exactly how this happened. It definitely was a computer problem, but I'll be there was an actual trade."

With the speed at which some of the stocks dropped on Wednesday, you can imagine some poor guy going to the bar for a drink and coming home an hour later to find he'd been wiped out.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 11:13 PM | Report abuse

@noa if you are still here,

The trades on Accenture showing 1 penny a share was not a joke. It appears that some poor schmuck sold nearly 67,000 shares at 1 cent. That trade will be rescinded. Maybe we'll hear about exactly how this happened. It definitely was a computer problem, but I'll be there was an actual trade.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 11:01 PM | Report abuse

it's the internet, Brigade. Dry humor is really hard to do on here.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 10:35 PM | Report abuse

Forged birth certificate?

What subset of the birthers does this fit into?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 10:30 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD wrote,
"Brigade, 12BB mentioned "sensible" people. You can't use any of my quotes to counter that."

Sometimes my attempts at levity fall flat.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 10:30 PM | Report abuse

Chris, how about instead "sizing up the usurpers?"

Those who conspired to make it possible for an illegal alien with a forged birth certificate to usurp the Presidency.

Why are you trying to cover that up?

Posted by: tncdel | May 7, 2010 10:25 PM | Report abuse

Don't worry 12. In drindls world we are one.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 10:17 PM
--------------------------------------
Well, not in my world.

Come on, MB, there's just the 2 of us here. What is your hangup about drindl? It's very obvious. What happened to cause this?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 10:19 PM | Report abuse

Don't worry 12. In drindls world we are one.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 10:17 PM | Report abuse

There is indeed a timer filter of about 2 or 3 minutes. There is a different one for words liberals like to use.

These two mechanisms have succeeded in cutting drivl's post count in two.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 10:06 PM | Report abuse

Brigade, 12BB mentioned "sensible" people. You can't use any of my quotes to counter that.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 10:02 PM | Report abuse

I said I think, in hindsight, the Iraq invasion was a mistake. Maybe you mean most people think Cheney fabricated all the evidence. If that's what they think, then I'm in the minority.
------------------------
My comment that your view is in the minority was directed to moonbat, not you. I haven't seen a poll on whether ppl think Cheney fabricated the evidence, but I personally don't think he fabricated all the evidence, but I do think he fabricated/spun some of the evidence. Don't know if that later is a mainstream view or not.

As to the logic of closing the history books on a war not yet completed, I would agree with you that it's not logical. And yet, people HAVE closed the book. It is not in the papers, it is not discussed, it is not on TV, radio, there are almost no reporting done from there. It has become background noise. The shooting might go on, but the debate is over.

As to your open mind, that's good to hear you have one. I would hope I do too. Something in common, eh?

I won't direct a response to two persons ever again. Only creates misunderstandings.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 10:00 PM | Report abuse

BTW, now there is a filter for posting too often. I just got blocked.

That's called the drindl filter.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 9:52 PM | Report abuse

-------

I think that's just a glitch that manifests itself from time to time---unless you used a bad word. I got that once because I had 'submitted' but nothing was happening, so I submitted again. I ended up with two identical posts.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 9:58 PM | Report abuse

BTW, now there is a filter for posting too often. I just got blocked.

That's called the drindl filter.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 9:52 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"While you believe that history is not written on Iraq and that the reasons will become clear later, you are in the minority."

Maybe so. I think my speculation is as valid as any I've seen. I don't know what you mean about me being in the minority.
I said I think, in hindsight, the Iraq invasion was a mistake. Maybe you mean most people think Cheney fabricated all the evidence. If that's what they think, then I'm in the minority.

I really don't see the logic in saying history has already been written on a war in which we are still involved. It will be years before we know how all this plays out in the Middle East.

"Supporters of Vietnam made the same argument, and as time went on, and disclosures were made, now almost no one believes that Vietnam was necessary or worthwhile."

I missed the part where I said Vietnam was necessary or worthwhile. I never had to change my mind on that one. I agree that history has been written regarding Vietnam.

"I'm not saying this to dissuade you from your beliefs. That would be impossible."

It's sometimes possible to get me to change my beliefs. Just show me where I'm wrong. I've changed beliefs and opinions on many occasions. I was in favor of the Iraq war when I thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction; I'm not ashamed to admit I was wrong.

"It's just that, from my view, it's not even interesting to debate Iraq. I'm so done with it--and that is a worldwide view."

We're still there, the situation is still unfolding, so how can the worldwide view be that we're done with it?

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 9:50 PM | Report abuse

OK 12Bar so how is that operationally different from breaking into a neighbor's house with a gun because I want his Stuff?

Aside from the potential for arrest, I mean.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 9:43 PM
----------------------------------
In my view, it isn't any different. Of course, I'm not really big into going to war except for the most important, existential reasons (and access to oil could qualify).

Others may come up with reasons why invading someone else's territory and taking his stuff is moral, but I don't see it myself.

Going to war in order to continue to exist isn't moral maybe, but it is excusable.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 9:50 PM | Report abuse

12
I suggest that the conventional wisdom in geo politics is not attuned to the strategic aspects , game theoretical, resource allocation and long term historical effects.

The stalling in Vietnam and Korea absolutely stopped the communist expansion of the time. We won.

The star wars initiative defeated the ussr. We outspent them. Socialism can never defeat capitalism.

We concentrated on offensive weapons to force them to spend on defensive weapons. See how it works. Russia has no bombers.

The entire field of study is simply too complex for casual observers.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 9:45 PM | Report abuse

OK 12Bar so how is that operationally different from breaking into a neighbor's house with a gun because I want his Stuff?

Aside from the potential for arrest, I mean.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 9:43 PM | Report abuse

@noa,

Maybe I'm coldblooded, but what war isn't for plunder? At least, make it for worthwhile plunder.

I'm not making a moral judgment. I'm making a "reality" statement.

BTW, now there is a filter for posting too often. I just got blocked.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 9:41 PM | Report abuse

@noa,

Maybe I'm coldblooded, but war isn't for plunder? At least, make it for worthwhile plunder.

I'm not making a moral judgment. I'm making a "reality" statement.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 9:38 PM | Report abuse

@noa,

Maybe I'm coldblooded, but war isn't for plunder? At least, make it for worthwhile plunder.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 9:34 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"Actually, I believe that access to oil was one of the reasons for the war, and I'm not being in the least critical of that as a reason. Of all the reasons to go to war, that was one of the most sound."

Don't make me feel even worse. If that was the reason, then we REALLY got screwed.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 9:27 PM
-----------------------------------
Now you're being ironic? LOL.

I can't think of a better reason to war than access to critical resources. Of course, you still have to win. Now, I'm being ironic.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 9:32 PM | Report abuse

Actually, I believe that access to oil was one of the reasons for the war, and I'm not being in the least critical of that as a reason. Of all the reasons to go to war, that was one of the most sound.

==

Please explain this. It sounds to me like you're OK with invasion for plunder

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 9:28 PM | Report abuse

@brigade and moonbat,

While you believe that history is not written on Iraq and that the reasons will become clear later, you are in the minority. Supporters of Vietnam made the same argument, and as time went on, and disclosures were made, now almost no one believes that Vietnam was necessary or worthwhile.

I'm not saying this to dissuade you from your beliefs. That would be impossible. It's just that, from my view, it's not even interesting to debate Iraq. I'm so done with it--and that is a worldwide view.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"Actually, I believe that access to oil was one of the reasons for the war, and I'm not being in the least critical of that as a reason. Of all the reasons to go to war, that was one of the most sound."

Don't make me feel even worse. If that was the reason, then we REALLY got screwed.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Surrender bowing scraping and apologizing

==

You are so immature

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"the verdict is that the Bush administration made the biggest blunder in the twentieth century."

That may eventually be the verdict. At this point I'm still going with Johnson's Gulf of Tonkin incident and the Viet Nam war.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 9:21 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"And furthermore, you said 3/4 of the posters would be believers in the conspiracy. I don't think one ironic comment qualifies as three in four, does it?"

Okay. Okay. I get it. I didn't actually take a poll. Evidently you can spot tongue-in-cheek from some posters but not from me. Besides, I don't ever remember any liberals really saying anything about Cheney and Halliburton, or that we were going to war for oil. Do you?

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 9:14 PM
---------------------------
If you were being ironic, you are right, I missed it. Sorry.

Actually, I don't remember any posts about Cheney and Halliburton, but I don't see everything.

As far as going to war for oil, yes I think I do remember posts about that. I don't put that in the Halliburton conspiracy theory, do you? Actually, I believe that access to oil was one of the reasons for the war, and I'm not being in the least critical of that as a reason. Of all the reasons to go to war, that was one of the most sound.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 9:20 PM | Report abuse

Disagree 12 bar.

Like holding back commies in Korea, Vietnam and Grenada. There is a domino effect. Planting a first ally in the region, a democracy will set actions in motion. This has already succeeded in many levels. Give it a few years.

Tear down this wall had a great effect in ending the reign of the ussr. It meant the people had a mentor. It matters. Surrender bowing scraping and apologizing had the opposite effect.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 9:15 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"And furthermore, you said 3/4 of the posters would be believers in the conspiracy. I don't think one ironic comment qualifies as three in four, does it?"

Okay. Okay. I get it. I didn't actually take a poll. Evidently you can spot tongue-in-cheek from some posters but not from me. Besides, I don't ever remember any liberals really saying anything about Cheney and Halliburton, or that we were going to war for oil. Do you?

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 9:14 PM | Report abuse

There were 22 solid and valid reasons given to the UN prior to the invasion. You can look it up.

==

You mean 22 post-hoc rationalizations for a big stupid mistake

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 9:11 PM | Report abuse

So we invaded a harmless and declawed nation and turned its leader over to a lynch mob because we had to show how tough we are. Otherwise people might think they can push us around.

Playground psychology, Apropos.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Noacoler wrote,
"The intelligence was formulated to fit the decision. We're going to invade, now come up with a justification. Let's roll.

I think they knew damn well Saddam was no threat."

I know this is what you think. It isn't what I think, but I can't prove you wrong.
We have differences of opinion; that's what makes the world go round.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 9:06 PM | Report abuse

There were 22 solid and valid reasons given to the UN prior to the invasion. You can look it up.
-------------------------------------
With all due respect, this sound like revisiting the reasons for the Civil War. You may believe there were solid and valid reasons for Iraq, but you are clearly in the minority, not only in the U.S. but in the world. That doesn't have to convince you that your views are wrong, but surely, you have to recognize that history has been written on the subject of Iraq and the verdict is that the Bush administration made the biggest blunder in the twentieth century.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 9:02 PM | Report abuse

There is a theory of probability called Baconian that reflects eliminating possibilities. The calculus is not fully formed.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 8:59 PM | Report abuse

Noacoler wrote,
"But when you see those ideological opponents carrying signs showing him as a ape, or calling him by the N-word, why do you still doubt?"

Because I have no reason to assume that these nuts you describe represent a significant number of the group.

"And there's the inescapable inferential: Bush ran up deficits too and there were no teabaggers then. And it isn't a big inferential leap nor embellishment to go from "I want my country back" to "having a black president is too weird for me""

It most certainly is a big inferential leap. They didn't criticize Bush for the same reason Democrats aren't criticizing Obama today. Where are the war protestors that were camped on Bush's doorstep; why no more talk about backdoor drafts and extended tours of duty; are the "innocent" victims being killed by the drones in Pakistan somehow less "innocent" than the victims of the Iraq war. Take off your partisan blinders!


Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 8:59 PM | Report abuse

"I don't place a lot of stock in the Haliburton conspiracy theory, but to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when you eliminate all explanations except one, that explanation must be it, no matter how absurd."

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 8:49 PM
-----------------------------------
This comment was tongue in cheek, I'm sure.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 8:52 PM
-------------------------------
And furthermore, you said 3/4 of the posters would be believers in the conspiracy. I don't think one ironic comment qualifies as three in four, does it?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 8:54 PM | Report abuse

There were 22 solid and valid reasons given to the UN prior to the invasion. You can look it up.

The main reason was that they broke the terms of surrender and enforcing the no fly zone uptempo was becoming unmanagable. They were firing missiles and we couldn't respond. Nor the old USA.

Nowadays things are different. Now we are weak and timid.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 8:54 PM | Report abuse

"I don't place a lot of stock in the Haliburton conspiracy theory, but to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when you eliminate all explanations except one, that explanation must be it, no matter how absurd."

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 8:49 PM
-----------------------------------
This comment was tongue in cheek, I'm sure.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 8:52 PM | Report abuse

12BarBlues wrote,
"And yet, not one poster did expound on that, did they? Is there an explanation for that?"

Yes. The point of his post was not to call for comments about Cheney; and he was suggesting that sensible people would not hold such a view.

But as you can see . . .

"I don't place a lot of stock in the Haliburton conspiracy theory, but to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when you eliminate all explanations except one, that explanation must be it, no matter how absurd."

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 8:49 PM | Report abuse

Just leave out the "liberal base" stuff, and don't insult my intelligence by pointing out that Hillary Clinton and others were unready to believe they were being lied to.

See, the problem I have with this belief of yours is that I have a clear recollection of ample doubts being raised about the presence of WMDs and the doubters intimidated with talk of treason and lack of fortitude. AND there is the fact that Cheney convened his own gaggle of (mostly Jewish, sorry, but true) security people who were manufacturing evidence where reality provided none, throwing out reliable intelligence in favor of crap from informants, *determined* to believe the WMDs were there.

The intelligence was formulated to fit the decision. We're going to invade, now come up with a justification. Let's roll.

I think they knew damn well Saddam was no threat.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 8:48 PM | Report abuse

Noacoler wrote,
"So I'm curious .. suppose you were a fly on the wall when the invasion was being decided; what is your guess as to the ACTUAL reason?"

My guess---and it can be no more than a guess since I wasn't there---is that Bush, Cheney, Powell, Tenent, the whole pack of them, honestly believed that Saddam Hussein actually possessed, and was in the process of developing, weapons of mass destruction. Bill and Hillary Clinton and many of the Democrats believed it, too. We could go back and replay some of the speeches from the floor of the Senate.

As is always the case, some of the evidence was open to differing interpretation; but like the cop or the prosecutor who interprets, arranges, and presents the evidence against a suspect whom they "know to be guilty" in such a way as to confirm their suspicions, the Bush administration made a colossal error in judgment.

It was disingenuous to later claim that the reason for the war was to remove a brutal dictator, spread democracy in the Middle East, provide rights to Iraqi women, or---the "legal" justification---to enforce U.N. sanctions. The reason was weapons of mass destruction and there were none. But it was not politically feasible for the Bush administration to take this position.

It was equally disingenuous for Democrats to claim that crafty George Bush had hoodwinked them into voting for the war or that the C.I.A. had lied to them. They made what they thought was the right vote based on the intelligence available at the time. They really owed no apologies. But
that isn't what the liberal base wanted to hear.

I'm convinced Saddam Hussein went to the gallows still perplexed, wondering why in the hell the U.S. expended the blood and treasure to remove him of all people from power.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 8:40 PM | Report abuse

@BB: I would guess that birther < --- > racist is about 90% accurate. I have no trouble believing that. There is no substantial reason to doubt Obama's authenticity, it has to be founded on some outrage.

I've never read any birther stuff online, nor heard anyone in person, that didn't come from someone who was clearly a racist. Call it anecdotal, but r = 1.0

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 8:38 PM | Report abuse

@G&T - No, but it was posted fairly early in the thread that birther=racist. I would concede that racism may have planted the seed of early allegations, but it grew in the fertile soil of conspiracy theories.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 8:33 PM | Report abuse

@BB: well I did say the invasion was absurd.

Considering Bush's preoccupation with appearing "tough" I have no trouble believing that he and Cheney actually believed that Iran would be cowed by the invasion. These weren't exactly bright people.

They've made the exact same mistake many times, e.g. in the belief that capturing and killing jihadists would intimidate the others into going back to paying work.


Bzzzzt.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 8:31 PM | Report abuse

It is, however, disingenuous to ascribe racial motives to the significant number of people who are opposed to Obama. I see anecdotes and hear allegations; I've read all the theorizing and bloviating; now how about some facts---some evidence to support the charges.

==

(sigh)

Nobody on the liberal side here has said that any and all ideological opposition to Obama is racial. I'm against the Afghanistan escalation for example and it isn't for racist reasons.

But when you see those ideological opponents carrying signs showing him as a ape, or calling him by the N-word, why do you still doubt?

And there's the inescapable inferential: Bush ran up deficits too and there were no teabaggers then. And it isn't a big inferential leap nor embellishment to go from "I want my country back" to "having a black president is too weird for me"

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 8:27 PM | Report abuse

Hey Brigade,

Nice to see you getting in. I'm comfortable with the notion that the whole birther nonsense is conspiracy theory writ large, aided and abetted by a deep suspicion of the other and insecurity for one's place in the world. I don't think the birthers would consider that supportive, but what the hey.

@G&T (still miss that handle) - There is an Ira* that poses a severe threat to the safety of Israeli citizens, but the last letter is not a "q". The US invasion of Iraq has, if anything, emboldened Iran which is the exact opposite of What Israel Wants.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 8:26 PM | Report abuse

I've read all the theorizing and bloviating; now how about some facts---some evidence to support the charges.


Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 8:18 PM
-----------------------------------------
I don't know about "proof" that what is behind the birther stuff is racism, but according to a poll that I read recently 3/10 Democrats believe it. If you don't believe the poll, I can find the link.

Regarding the substance of the birther stuff, supporters of Pres Obama wish the birthers would present their evidence and quit bloviating. All I hear is "suspicious". They are the ones making the charges--they are the ones to present the evidence.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 8:25 PM | Report abuse

Gallenod wrote,
"But let's be clear: Most of the "hate" directed at Obama is either for what he is or what he stands for. The "hate" directed at Bush is predominantly a result of what his administration actually did. Trying to conflate the two is entirely disingenuous."

And then Noacoler wrote,
"the active belief that minorities are stupid and criminal. That's way over 20%.
. . . What the hell else could be
motivating them?"

C'mon guys. This is the kind of nonsense that drives 37th over the edge. Just because you can't figure out "what the hell else could be motivating them" certainly doesn't mean there is nothing else. As you said in another post, you don't hang with them, and you don't understand them.

I remember the vitriol directed at Bill Clinton, whom I actually supported for a time. Obama ain't seen nothin' yet. Can you imagine if a Republican-led House voted articles of impeachment against Obama? Riots in the streets. And the animosity against Clinton was clearly not racist.

I don't dispute that bigotry exists. It always has, and it always will. In every country and culture. It's the nature of the beast. But this is no longer a racist society. If someone wants to vote against a candidate because he's black---or because she's a woman---he has a right to his prejudice. Forget it. Live with it.

It is, however, disingenuous to ascribe racial motives to the significant number of people who are opposed to Obama. I see anecdotes and hear allegations; I've read all the theorizing and bloviating; now how about some facts---some evidence to support the charges.


Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 8:18 PM | Report abuse

One possibility for the reason (and I think there was more than one reason to invade, none of them rational, some of them entirely absurd) is that it's what Israel wanted. The Bush administration was neoconservatism and one core tenet of neoconservatism, regardless of the nationality of the neoconservative, is that Israel Comes First.

Netanyahu had a wish-list of countries he wanted the US to "take out" for him so Israel could proceed with its settlements and land theft -- pardon me, "ensure their security" -- and so Israeli wouldn't have to shed any of their own Chosen blood; that list began with Iraq, and also included Iran, Lebanon, and Syria.

Remember that little quit Bush dashed out anytime anyone asked him about our support for their brutality e.g. in Gaza?

"Izh'rel hazzarat to DEFENN isself!"

I really wish we would just cut them the hell off.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 8:17 PM | Report abuse

Careful Fairlington, you're getting right on the edge. You don't want to antagonize the bloggers here. I'll make book three-fourths of them actually believe that stuff about Cheney.
----------------------------------
And yet, not one poster did expound on that, did they? Is there an explanation for that?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 8:17 PM | Report abuse

How does anyone explain how Republicans' opposition research, for which they spend millions, could not find any evidence to support ANY of the suspicions about birth, transcripts, passports, visas, grandmothers, relatives, Kenya, or any of the suspicions held by birthers.

What explanation is there that Republicans cannot find any evidence or refuse to show the evidence?

Posted by: 12BarBlues | May 7, 2010 8:13 PM | Report abuse

I don't place a lot of stock in the Haliburton conspiracy theory, but to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when you eliminate all explanations except one, that explanation must be it, no matter how absurd.

I'm still trying to figure out why the hell Bush went to war with Iraq. I'm assuming he is aware that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. They weren't an imminent threat, they did nothing to provoke. I mean, we have to start getting into absurd territory for reasons. Like some Oedipal thing about Bush wanting to finish what his father couldn't or Cheney wanting to profiteer off the war. The reason people look to these explanations is that there is no plausible conventional explanation.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 8:05 PM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade wrote,
"It makes about as much sense as Dick Cheney pushed the Iraq war so his Halliburton stock would increase in value. I can just see him checking with his broker before a cabinet meeting."

Careful Fairlington, you're getting right on the edge. You don't want to antagonize the bloggers here. I'll make book three-fourths of them actually believe that stuff about Cheney.

==

In one of your increasingly rare candid moments you wrote that the Iraq war was a mistake. I agree.

So I'm curious .. suppose you were a fly on the wall when the invasion was being decided; what is your guess as to the ACTUAL reason?

Since Cheney spent so much time overseeing the manufacture of false WMD evidence, I hope you're not going to insult my intelligence and say we actually were worried about Saddam being a threat to our security. We both know he was blustering to keep Iran guessing.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 8:02 PM | Report abuse

youba wrote,
"People forge their own realities and vote accordingly."

I've noticed that. Whatever liberals are smoking, I wish they'd send over a pound or two.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 7:58 PM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade wrote,
"It makes about as much sense as Dick Cheney pushed the Iraq war so his Halliburton stock would increase in value. I can just see him checking with his broker before a cabinet meeting."

Careful Fairlington, you're getting right on the edge. You don't want to antagonize the bloggers here. I'll make book three-fourths of them actually believe that stuff about Cheney.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 7:51 PM | Report abuse

Ignoring the snark (quit it, would you? Breathe in and out of a paper bag if it helps), yeah you're right. Men in VN smoke like chimneys and this is my #1 misgiving about moving there; I'm allergic to tobacco smoke, it gives me headaches even at very low concentrations, so I won't be going to very many indoor restaurants there.

Oddly, it's only men who smoke, and the younger generation seems to be eschewing it a lot more, at least in the middle class. In five visits I've seen exactly four women smoking, three of them together in front of the opera house in Saigon.

In Saigon the smoke is so bad I can get a headache walking down the street, not even passing near anyone. I stay out of Saigon.

At some point the government will decide it's a problem, pass a law, and that. Will. Be. That.

Pity we can't to the same here. Wouldn't want to infringe on the most vital of our freedoms, the freedom to enslave.

Love that free market.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 7:51 PM | Report abuse

Noacoler wrote,
"I want tobacco banned too. Addiction is slavery and I'm against slavery."

Things are getting so rough for the tobacco companies here, I think they're shifting their focus to enslaving the population of southeast Asia. Places like Viet . . . oh, sorry.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 7:44 PM | Report abuse

Hey Brigdte, I see a pattern.

Every time you show up you issue a series of stupid snarky posts, as idiotic as anything by JakeD or zouk, and then you seem to get it out of your system and start doing reasonable, readable posts. Not stuff I necessarily agree with mind you but not merely irritating.

It'd be really great if you could find a way to get that snark out of your system before you show up here.

And no, I don't like snark. It's stupid.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 7:44 PM | Report abuse

Noacoler wrote,
"We tend to associate with people like ourselves, people we can talk to, people who can understand us. We don't get a representative cross-section of our fellow citizens."

Yes. We all remember Pauline Kael's statement, "I just can't believe McGovern didn't win. Everyone I know voted for him."

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 7:40 PM | Report abuse

Drindl wrote,
"The unemployment rate rose from 9.7 percent in March to 9.9 percent in April . . .
Republicans will try to spin this of course -- as they do everything . . ."

Hmmmmmm. Right. I see your point. 9.9 percent is a helluva lot better than 19.9 percent or 29.9 percent.

Gee, I hope those liberals don't try to spin the disaster in the Gulf -- as they do everything.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 7:35 PM | Report abuse

katem1 wrote,
"And by the way CC, a poll does not mean that 1 in 5 Americans believe this crap, it means 1 in 5 of the poll respondents do. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!"

One thing I really like about this blog: you learn something new every day.

Posted by: Brigade | May 7, 2010 7:30 PM | Report abuse

Yeah a post every 11 minutes. Every one of them roiling with hate.

Nice to know one thing: being zouk is its own punishment. He'll probably be dead before he's 40, and good riddance.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 7:28 PM | Report abuse

I see Zouk has resumed rapid fire posting New identity registered at 2 p.m. 22 posts by 6 p.m. Must be going out with Moonbat to happy hour.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 7:09 PM | Report abuse

That's pretty shocking that for any number of people, they do all their shopping at convenience stores. I did that for about a week when my car broke down. Lots of mac and cheese and canned soup. Pretty bad.

I don't know if the soda tax ever made it in the affordable care act. I'd love to see an excise tax on sodas. They are basically the dietary equivalent of cigarettes.

One thing that IS in the new law, though, is that restaurants will have to prominently display nutritional information. This includes fast food restaurants. And this doesn't mean a brochure in the back that the restaurant might have if you're lucky. It means it's displayed right on the wall along. And it applies to drive throughs as well.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 6:46 PM | Report abuse

Until we see the long form, the jury's out.

==

Until you see something that doesn't exist you're goingto believe a paranoid lie.

Fine, go ignorant and hysterical to your grave, and who cares.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 6:23 PM | Report abuse

you never had a case to rest, fool

your idea of "freedom" translates to "allow corporations to sicken and kill us." No f ucking thanks.

I want tobacco banned too. Addiction is slavery and I'm against slavery.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 6:13 PM | Report abuse

Don't put too much faith in those poll numbers. 70% of Americans think Iran has the Bomb. In other words, most people believe everything their government-controlled media tells them, and that includes Obama's birthplace. Until we see the long form, the jury's out.

Posted by: IkeHall | May 7, 2010 6:11 PM | Report abuse

human freedom and dignity versus elitist nannyism

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I really think soft drinks need to be controlled.

Posted by: Noacoler |


I rest my case.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 6:01 PM | Report abuse

In 2006, a total of 1,266,264 immigrants became legal permanent residents of the United States, up from 601,516 in 1987, 849,807 in 2000, and 1,122,373 in 2005.[51] The top twelve migrant-sending countries in 2006, by country of birth, were Mexico (173,753), People's Republic of China (87,345), Philippines (74,607), India (61,369), Cuba (45,614), Colombia (43,151), Dominican Republic (38,069), El Salvador (31,783), Vietnam (30,695),


While actual land ownership is not possible at this time for non-Vietnamese, it is possible for ANYONE to obtain a 50-year Land lease and build/own a house. It is absolutely advisable to hire proper legal counsel before engaging in the purchase of these leases. Property values despite the downward trend, which began in late 2005, are still quite high in the cities.

http://www.expatfocus.com/expatriate-vietnam-buying-property

Ped has no clue what he is doing. I suppose that we will hear some story she heard at the juice bar as a retort to actual numbers.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 5:59 PM | Report abuse

@DDAWD again: yeah this is probably true re: the snack foods .. I'm proud that I don't eat any of that stuff (what never? well, hardly ever), I snack on fruit.

But I've read that for millions of Americans, particularly but not only in the inner cities, grocery stores are prohibitively inaccessible and people tend to shop for food in convenience stores.

One of the biggest problems in American nutrition is sweet drinks (they have them in VN too, washing down the healthiest cuisine in the world with ghastly orange pop) .. evolution predisposed us to not feel full from liquids, because evolution didn't prepare us for pop or ever juice, only water, and to skip a chance to eat after a big drink would be survival negative.

So people drink a couple cans of pop, get three hundred extra junk calories, and then eat a bucket of greasy fried chicked with french fries. I really think soft drinks need to be controlled.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 5:41 PM | Report abuse

@DDAWD: we who are educated professionals tend to have little or no association with what I will seek to neutrally refer to as "ordinary people" after we leave high school. We tend to associate with people like ourselves, people we can talk to, people who can understand us. We don't get a representative cross-section of our fellow citizens, not without trying to, unless we work with them e.g. as doctors.

Not to sound nasty about it, but average people are pretty dull for the most part, and half the country is duller still. Not calling them bad or inadequate people, mind you, but once we enter into our careers our contacts become enriched with people who share our education level.

That's one phenomenon about these online things .. they bring us into contact with people we wouldn't spend ten seconds with in real life. We also find ourselves reading, sometimes horrified, writing by people we'd never affiliate with if we had any say in the matter.

It's pretty shocking to read a blog like stormfront or redstate and see just how depraved, sick, and hateful some of our fellow citizens are.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 5:34 PM | Report abuse

Noa, I think the problem with America obesity isn't so much the meals we eat, but all the eating we do in between meals. I don't know if you read Ezra Klein's blog, but he had posted some charts comparing things like total food, fruits, meats, processed foods, etc. There wasn't any category where the US was a runaway winner or very far behind the other countries in the chart. The only exception was in snack foods. Of the countries in that chart, Americans eat like 60% more snack food than second place (Spain, I believe)

And this makes sense to me. If you stick to regular meals, it's really not that hard to keep your calorie count to reasonable levels. Just as long as you don't do something stupid like eat McDonalds 3 meals a day. It's all the snacking in between meals that tends to make the cal count shoot up.

It's just a conjecture, but I do think there's truth in it.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

Shrink, thanks. FCE was what I was thinking of. I'm always amazed when I see these polls how many people might believe something. Obama wasn't born in the US, George Bush was a good President, etc. So it certainly doesn't seem like 1 in 5 people is a bigot. And for me, I spend pretty much all my time among smart, educated people, so the bigotry will be even lower. And I tend to just assume someone isn't racist until proven otherwise, just because of FCE. So considering all that, 1 in 5 doesn't seem so unreasonable to me.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 5:23 PM | Report abuse

Gee zouk then why are so many American Vietnamese moving back there?

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 5:22 PM | Report abuse

I wonder how many of those starving vietnamese would like to come here and suffer under the burden of obesity?

If only the government would let them.

notice the distinction between liberal and conservative argument. Facts and links versus cutesy stories, mostly made up fictions. (remember the doctor who would make 60 thousand for cutting off legs (utterly false), the mother who had to eat dogfood (fiction), etc,)human freedom and dignity versus elitist nannyism (you will like it once you are forced to). It cuts straight to the core of both ideologies.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Meanwhile in America, the poor are "suffering" from being overfed.

==

Wrong. Every socioeconomic level in America us suffering from a lousy diet. Too much grease, not enough fresh vegetables. Too many calories, not enough vitamins. Obesity as a leading health problem, diabetes widespread, lack of public education on good nutrition. Lots of junk food, but millions in the cities have to bus all the way across town to find a grocery store so they live on candy bars and potato chips.

But it's a capitalist utopia. And there's lotsa economic freedoms. How can the marketplace be wrong? It's literally IMPOSSIBLE.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

I'm seeing a problem on the Live Chat page, the refresh never completes. It ends with the "Sponsored Links" box

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 4:50 PM


time for some alternative plans for Friday night loser. Maybe teach the bird to say "Barrrrack".

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 5:04 PM | Report abuse

Round and round we go. No matter how many times debunked, birthers/dualers of the Far White Wing (I'm coining here) of the GOP/Tea Party continue on to another blog to spout the same lies/fabrications. Let's see, Vattel-check, two hospitals-check, dual citizen cannot be NBC-check, Pres O spent anywhere from $500K to $2.2M to hide his records-check, State of Hawaii/Gov Lingle/HI DOH/SCOTUS/US District Courts all in a vast conspiracy to defraud the American people-check, Pres O's mama underage so could not transfer citizenship (even though the laws are for births overseas)-check, and on and on. Every time there is an article on this issue someone from the White Wing logs on and begins to post these smoke and mirrors issues somehow believing that we all haven't seen this BS before. When questioned as to proof, magically there is none. Just back to posting the next myth. Doesn't matter how many times proved wrong. Truth does not get in the way of a good conspiracy theory. All we can do is support our President and have a good laugh at the tenacity of evil. It is entertaining, however tiresome it may become.

Posted by: jimimosey | May 7, 2010 5:00 PM | Report abuse

The genius financial titan communist sympathizer was recently bragging about 10% return in Vietnam banks. At 20% inflation rate that is roughly,(according to liberal economics), well more than ten fingers I think. this will result in a giant surplus after someone leaves office and all the difficult decisions are made. you know, the usual liberal counting scheme.

no wonder your money is in gold. Requires no intelligent thought. you can just hide it under the bridge and the billy goats won't find it. Plus it's all shiny. perfect for the gal who makes fun of economics and writes for girls garage.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 4:59 PM | Report abuse

I'm seeing a problem on the Live Chat page, the refresh never completes. It ends with the "Sponsored Links" box

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

In the usual liberal moonbat style, when presented with unpleasant facts, they resort to name calling and empty calls of victory.

there has never been an argument won on merits by the loons on this site. Only by ugly perseverance.

After again demonstrating the utter vacuity of the liberal line, I leave you lonely loser to your thread for the duration of the evening. Family you know. Oh wait. You don't. your "family" is a bunch of birds, the only creatures dumb enough to tolerate you.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse

Sounds like a nice place to raise a family, the socialist utopia:

Van Kieu is a very poor area where there are few toilets or safe water and the people have to travel huge distances to find arable land.

One local woman explained: “When babies are a month old, they're fed with minced rice. In some cases, when the baby is 2 to 3 days old, the minced rice is put into a piece of cloth for the baby to suck, because their mother has to go to the field.”

This situation was made more desperate by the poor hygiene, little nutritional knowledge, pervasive gender inequalities and health workers' limited capacity in treating ethnic minority groups.

I think Neocolor likes being at the top of the heap, something that was impossible here in the land of competition and measurement of productivity. Yet in typical liberal fashion, all the ills she decries here, are overlooked in their entirety there.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 4:43 PM | Report abuse

hat's it. Obama wants to turn us into Vietnam, complete with endemic corruption, silence of the press, runaway inflation, low GDP, police repression, ineffective government institutions, useless health care, low GDP, begging to other countries for handouts...

but if they cut off education at 11 years old, it will not really change anything, so that's OK.

==

Better replace your tinfoil, sounds like it's saturated with the Rays and they're starting to get through. Be sure to swap in the new foil in a phone booth or else you'll be enslaved the moment you remove the old hat.

As for ending education in the USA, riddle me this: which political party wants to shut down public education? Hint: begins with an R.

Which political party trades in voter ignorance? Hint: begins with an R.

Move over 37th, we have a new nut.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Socialist utopia:

More than 32.6 per cent of children in Vietnam are malnourished, stunted and underweight, making the country one of the world's 20 worst performers in child nutrition, a report states.

Malnutrition in children is most common in Tay Nguyen (Central Highlands), Northwestern area and the northern part of the central area, the Ministry of Health's National Institute of Nutrition reported.

Deputy Minister Tran Chi Liem on Monday (February 16) told a national conference on nutrition in Ha Noi that nutrition improvement activities begun last year had reduced the rate of malnutrition in children by one percentage point over the previous year.

hope you like em really really skinny Ped.

http://health.asiaone.com/Health/News/Story/A1Story20090219-123147.html

Meanwhile in America, the poor are "suffering" from being overfed.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 4:38 PM | Report abuse

That's it. Obama wants to turn us into Vietnam, complete with endemic corruption, silence of the press, runaway inflation, low GDP, police repression, ineffective government institutions, useless health care, low GDP, begging to other countries for handouts...

but if they cut off education at 11 years old, it will not really change anything, so that's OK.

Why not just go now? what are you waiting for? After November, your dream of bringing communism here is over.

1000 per year per capita GDP. Ped will be a very big man for once. He might even have air conditioning and not have to ride the bus. finally he will get even with those Pakis for doing better then he.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 4:30 PM | Report abuse

Re: property rights in VN: another thing you know nothing about, zouk.

People in VN hope and pray that the government takes their land, because losing it to the government is one of the easiest paths to wealth. They pay VERY handsomely for their eminent domain.

But you keep reading junk from mises and Heritage, about the freedom to enslave, which is what they're really talking about.

You. Know. Nothing.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 4:26 PM | Report abuse

The lack of "economic freedom" (spits) in VN is something to celebrate, zouk, especially when as measured by such religious sickos as WSJ and Heritage. What they call "economic freedom" translates to the right of companies like Anthem and GS to sump a nation's wealth into their own offshore accounts, and yeah, that can't be done in VN.

More useful data point: the middle class in VN is buegeoning, expanding, growing by leaps and bounds, while here it's contracting.

As in just about everything except maybe boat finishing, you don't know what the bloody hell you're talking about.

As for MY work and incentives, I'm contracting at a company in Seattle that has the same one-year limit on contracts that Microsoft has, but unlike Microsoft they occasionally -- rarely -- grant extensions. And despite three rounds of layoffs while I've been here, I just got one of those extensions, the maximum in fact. So it looks like you're wrong yet again, you bloody fool.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 4:22 PM | Report abuse

The economics of a socialist utopia:

In 2003 the private sector accounted for more than one-quarter of all industrial output.[6] However, between 2003 and 2005 Vietnam fell dramatically in the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report rankings, largely due to negative perceptions of the effectiveness of government institutions.[6] Official corruption is endemic, and Vietnam lags in property rights, the efficient regulation of markets, and labor and financial market reforms.[6]

In 2008 inflation was tracking at 20.3 percent for the first half of the year,[2] higher than the 3.4 percent rate measured in 2000 but down significantly from 160 percent in 1988.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 4:20 PM | Report abuse

The ignorant brat likes to think that socialism is such a gift. consider the socialist paradise on some measures:

Main article: International rankings of Vietnam
Organization Survey Ranking

Heritage Foundation/The Wall Street Journal Index of Economic Freedom 142 out of 157
The Economist Worldwide Quality-of-life Index, 2005[65] 61 out of 111
Reporters Without Borders Worldwide Press Freedom Index 155 out of 167
Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 111 out of 163
World Economic Forum Global Competitiveness Report 77 out of 125

Well, at least they beat Somalia and Afghanistan

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 4:13 PM | Report abuse

Trouble is brewing when people refuse to believe that severe corruption or conspiracy is not possible in the USA. We only need to examine past history, i.e, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Pol Pot's Cambodia, North Korea and many more. It is when people let their guard down, these kinds of governments can and do happen!! Even today the signs are evident all around. Example the "Wall Street Casino" mentality, "The Global Warming" hoax, and the Federal Reserve Secrecy(on-going for about 70 plus years). There are many more examples!!

Posted by: sarasota1 | May 7, 2010 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Here's the healthcare of a socialist utopia. Coming soon to government clinic near you:

In 1954, North Vietnam established a public health system that reached down to the hamlet level.[citation needed] After the reunification in 1975, this system was extended to the former South Vietnam.[citation needed] Beginning in the late 1980s, the quality of health care began to decline as a result of budgetary constraints, a shift of responsibility to the provinces, and the introduction of charges. Inadequate funding has led to delays in planned upgrades to water supply and sewage systems. As a result, almost half the population has no access to clean water, a deficiency that promotes such infectious diseases as malaria, dengue fever, typhoid, and cholera. Inadequate funding also has contributed to a shortage of nurses, midwives, and hospital beds. In 2000 Vietnam had only 250,000 hospital beds, or 14.8 beds per 10,000 people, a very low ratio among Asian nations, according to the World Bank.[60]

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Zouk, if there is anyone dumber than you drawing breath then he probably has trouble alternating feet when he walks. You post some of the stupidest crap we ever read here, atop the nastiest.

"all personal incentives which selfishness provides under capitalism are removed" -- if the simplemindedness of this drool doesn't give you pause then its incongruence with REALITY certainly should. Randroid JUNK.

He isn't describing Socialism, he isn't even describing a caricature of Socialism, he's describing a cartoon. And you have to be cartoon simple to believe it, which of course you are.

If you think nobody works or has incentive to excel under Socialism then you better stay the hell out of Việt Nam because you li'l head would esplode.

God but you're dumb.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 4:04 PM | Report abuse

"Look. It is pretty obvious that Cillizza is a cheerleader for the tea party groups.

* * * *

Posted by: jaxas70 | May 7, 2010 9:27 AM"
___________________

Most journalists--see, e.g., Frank Rich, Eugene Robinson, Colbert King, and Janeane Garofalo--regard the baggers as bigoted fools who have been manipulated by right wing lobbyists and hidden corporate interests to disrupt the progressive agenda of President Obama.

Fix? He has called the baggers "quasi-libertarians." I'll ask a bagger if he/she can even spell that word after they put down their misspelled n-word signs.

Unbelievable to see this racist birther madness in the Post in 2010 during the Administration of our first black president. Turn away Kate Graham. Turn away.

Posted by: broadwayjoe | May 7, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

Lloyd Blankfein is all twisted up in the bias issues we discussed earlier.

"He noted there is a disconnect between how the company views itself and how outsiders see Goldman Sachs...He pledged that the company will be more introspective and listen to issues raised by shareholders."
NYT

This is hilarious.
Before and since it went public, the company has never been anything but introspective and since it went public, its introspection has only been complicated by shareholder interests. Looking inward and at shareholders will not salvage Goldman Sachs' image.

Hello? Goldman? Is there anyone in there?

*crickets*

How about your clients? Ok to be shooting dice with massive amounts of other peoples' money? Setting up a predatory synthetic product so you make money while one client destroys another?

Lloyd Blankfein. What an idiot. In a certain way, he is like Bernie Madoff, in another way, like Gov. Sanford; he thinks he is doing the right thing, he thinks he is misunderstood, he really does.

Posted by: shrink2 | May 7, 2010 3:52 PM | Report abuse

On display below, the liberal intelligentsia.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 3:44 PM | Report abuse

@Noacoler; The only person tetched in the haid as you put it is you. Because you refuse to use your brain!! That is how tyranny has come down on the American People, because they have become lazy and refuse to examine the "Official Story" of anything...They take as gospel the stories that the Mainstream Media spews. It is people like you that don't use any critical thinking skills at all!! When the MSM puts out a story you are assuming their sources are true. So when you critisize me without a good arguement, then you discredit yourself!!

Posted by: sarasota1 | May 7, 2010 3:44 PM | Report abuse

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! oh my god, mises.org. "Austrian economics."

What absolute f ucking JUNK.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 3:40 PM | Report abuse

Yeah Lonewacko, Chris Cillizza, Republican partisan, is in on the conspiracy too. Public officials all over the country are in on it. The nefarious plot goes all the way back to Obama's birth, when his Manchurian candidacy and ascent to the presidency as a stealth Muslim Communist was carefully and meticulously planned. And so well that all the pieces came together and now he's President.

</sarcasm>

You need to see a shrink.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 3:38 PM | Report abuse

""Under such a socialist mode of production all personal incentives which selfishness provides under capitalism are removed, and a premium is put upon laziness and negligence. Whereas in a capitalist society selfishness incites everyone to the utmost diligence, in a socialist society it makes for inertia and laxity.""

Read more: The Quotable Mises http://mises.org/quotes.aspx#ixzz0nH2MCn2v


wow, Ole Ludwig must have known a few Neocolors and drindl's too. One works not, the other, goes to work but never works. In other words, typical big government liberals. Inertia and laxity indeed. Can you imagine owning a small business and having these worthless sandbaggers milking you for their upkeep.

so we have the liberal party create enormous government so the lazy and inept can care for the liberals, also lazy and inept. How else would these fools eat?

the guys in the middle get to pay for it all.

not after November. Libs made the mistake of forcing the issue and losing.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 3:36 PM | Report abuse

Chris Cillizza has posted two entries since this one, and he still hasn't acknowledged that HI's governor recently lied about the basic, indisputable facts of this matter. Listen to Lingle lie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO6R8E20bio

Posted by: LonewackoDotCom | May 7, 2010 3:18 PM | Report abuse

@Maerzie: that's the way you and I think. The uh people who revere Palin view her ignorance as proof of her authenticity. Real people don't read books (though they carry around a Bible), don't know geography, don't "do" nuance."

Palin bragged about her "thin resume," and played her lack of experience and knowledge as a "fresh approach." She appeals to the conceit for stupid people and failures at life who like to think they're authentic.

It's irritating that she keeps getting ink. The press has a job to do in informing us of things we need to know and they're falling down hard on that job.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 9:48 AM

we will now get a steady stream of clinical paranoids, conspiracy theorists, and garden-variety homeless mumblers all day...


....over 25 pointless rants later, most about how ignorant everyone else is.....

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 3:04 PM

who's invested?

rant on moonbats. It is what you do best.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 3:14 PM | Report abuse

I sure would never want to be endorsed by Palin! I think it would be more of a detriment to be connected to an airhead with so little real knowledge of world affairs or politics in general.

Posted by: Maerzie | May 7, 2010 3:08 PM | Report abuse

Anyone who wants a capsule summary of the birther belief need only read the posts here from the junkmen who believe it. Bad grammar, hysteria, obvious emotional problems. Too small a sample for a valid little-r but enough to draw the tenuous conclusion the the birther belief is a peculiar to people who're a little tetched in the haid.

"Sounds fishy to me," opines sarasota1 .. yet who sees nothing fishy in the fact that Obama was allowed to assume elected office without people who have clearances and access examining the data.

Tetched in the haid, a few bails shy of a load, not playing with a full deck, a few cans short of a sixpack, not firing on all cylinders .. the birthers.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 3:06 PM | Report abuse

gee, bumblingbery -- you just came on here for the first time today, and already have an obsession with me? Hmmmm.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

sarasota:

Can you imagine Obama's list of associates? the FBI would/should lock him up.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 3:03 PM | Report abuse

zouk is the jellyfish, 37 is just the pee in the pool.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 2:59 PM | Report abuse

It is really disturbing how the media writes off the birthers as if is a dead issue, which it is not. Even if Obama has a birth certificate from the state of Hawaii, it is a fact that he had an Indonesian passport and thus citizenship. Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship. Also Obama spent a great deal of money to have his records sealed and even though he says he attended Columbia and Occidental Universities, he refuses to make his records available to the public which makes it highly suspicious. If he has nothing to hide then why the secrecy? There is of course much more to this story, but you can check all these things for yourselves. I just believe that Obama should open up his records and tell us where he has been...When I applied for a Top Secret clearance in the US Air Force, I had to account for addresses, telephone numbers, friends, relatives, school records...In other words a "stack" of papers!! Which included birth certificate, passport,social security card,bank records, you name it. But yet we can't see his school records? Sounds fishy to me.

Posted by: sarasota1 | May 7, 2010 2:56 PM | Report abuse

this poor thread is suffering from drindl's carpet bombing again.

Does he get paid to post every other time? I would have thought there was some regard for quality. Must be a union thing.

Out of 100 posts, one leftist, angry loon makes up for about half. Impressive in it's emptiness.


It seems that the readers are well aware though:

Oh good, drindl is on the board today. Name-calling, avoidance of real questions, and lengthy cut-and-pastes from Huffington Post can't be far behind.....

Posted by: dbw1 | May 7, 2010 10:39 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Oh my, ANOTHER zouk moniker. So many monikers, but so very much the same. Zouk, ol' shutterbug, don't you think you're just a little too *invested* in this place? Creating one account after another after another, just to spray spit on your monitor posting junk nobody cares about?

ChrisC, come on. Get rid of all the zouk monikers, would you? And keep getting rid of them as he creates new ones. And please jettison the noise machine known as 37thand0Street as well, he's just wasted space. Lots of wasted space, and repetitive as hell.

We had a good discussion going here, it was even on-topic (being more amenable to discussion than another puff piece for some Republican nonentity nobody cares about), and then 37th and zouk show up, like stinging jellyfish ruining a day at the beach.

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 2:51 PM | Report abuse

dawd --all the Rs who have actually won, like McDonnell and Brown, have run away from the teatards [although McDonnell was a trojan horse]. So I think Crist has a good chance.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 2:40 PM | Report abuse

"Can you also tell us how many like rocky road?

Sometimes the stupidity on this blog reaches all new lows and considering drindl, that is a remarkable feat.

Posted by: bumblingberry"

the same old zouk sewage, just like always.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse

Interesting link, Drindl. Thanks. It was Grassley & Harkin back when I lived in the Cyclone State and it still is. Of course, it was Terry "Governor for life" Bransted too and it looks like he's coming back for seconds (and third and fourths…) I would be surprised if Grassley goes down, but stranger things have happened.

As Wright, Ayers, etc. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 2:28 PM | Report abuse

CC: I can't believe you let zouk sign in with yet another screen name, bumblingberry.

Good thing there are some new blogs on here that zouk hasn't found yet...unfortunately jake has found them all.

Posted by: koolkat_1960 | May 7, 2010 2:25 PM | Report abuse

Not a good strategy for reelection:

The U.S. jobless rate rose to 9.9% in April, the first increase in three months, but the government’s broader measure of unemployment ticked up for the third month in a row, rising 0.2 percentage point to 17.1%. The comprehensive gauge of labor underutilization, known as the “U-6″ for its data classification by the Labor Department, accounts for people who have stopped looking for work or who can’t find full-time jobs.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 2:20 PM | Report abuse

Sorry to be tardy...work...

Confirmation Bias is when we look for information which confirms our expectations.

Most people believe more people are like them or agree with them than actually do, this is called the False Consensus Effect, but it could be called human nature.

Posted by: shrink2 | May 7, 2010 2:19 PM | Report abuse

the active belief that minorities are stupid and criminal. That's way over 20%.

~~~~~~~~
Neocolor is peering into people's souls.

Can you also tell us how many like rocky road?

Sometimes the stupidity on this blog reaches all new lows and considering drindl, that is a remarkable feat.

Posted by: bumblingberry | May 7, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

hmmm...290,000 people have jobs who didn't have jobs at the end of March.

Posted by: DDAWD
-------------------------------------------
The census, the IRS, government jobs are a wonderful thing.

Posted by: leapin | May 7, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

"This 'anti-incumbency' thing is pretty much all happening on the right -- so guess who it's going to hurt more in November? Interesting Governor Crist is running as an 'outsider' -- neat trick, huh? And is now running ahead of teatard Rubio?

hahahhahahah. funny election year.

Posted by: drindl "

You know, even though even though the teabagger candidates haven't been winning these primaries, they can still claim some success in driving the conversation and in driving the positions of the candidates. For example, if McCain beats Heyworth, teabaggers can still claim a victory in that they forced McCain to shift his position in that direction.

But Crist is different. He has unapologetically stuck to his moderate views. While McCain has been claiming he has never called himself a maverick, Crist is standing by his support for the stimulus package. So if Crist wins the Florida seat, that is a straight repudiation of the teabaggers. Crist would win because he ran away from them, not towards.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 2:10 PM | Report abuse

First - it is described as "indisputable"


Then Chris goes on to describe all the people on BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE.

If there are two sides, then logically there is a dispute.

.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse

I give CC small credit for pointing out that the birther movement has no foundation but the discussion in general seems to praise by faint damnation. The segue to more Palin news underscores.

Good discussions from shrink and Gallenrod, thanks guys.

BB: have to agree with DDAWD, you choose some strange thi gs to defend and this one today seems more than a little naive. But then I grew up in the south.

True the snarling violent racists are probably under one in five but the quieter kind is a lot higher. And I don't mean unexamined presumptions like the black guy in the office is probably there to fix the copier, but the active belief that minorities are stupid and criminal. That's way over 20%.

To say the birther are not racist to the core isn't hair splitting, it's flat out wrong. What the hell else could be
motivating them?

Posted by: Noacoler | May 7, 2010 1:51 PM | Report abuse

The level of ignorance among American is frightening...they are easily whipped into a frenzy and will believe anything as long as the phrase fits onto a bumper sticker. For examples: see the "tea baggers"...where was their outrage when Bush squandered the surplus, lied his way into two wars, outsourced jobs to foreign countries, suspended rights, etc.... silent!! Oblivious.

Maybe we should have "IQ panels"....if a person has no reasoning ability, send them to AZ and let AZ be annexed back into Mexico...that would serve them right!!

Posted by: blrpalms | May 7, 2010 1:49 PM | Report abuse

Under pawlenty's 'leadership' it looks like Minnesota is about ready to close up shop as a state. And this is a guy anyone would take seriously as presidential material?

"Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty warned on Friday of "an imminent and severe cash flow crisis" in an executive order that requires agency commissioners to plan for state service interruptions.

The order instructed Pawlenty's cabinet members to identify core functions pertaining to "life, health and safety of Minnesota citizens."

Pawlenty's cabinet was to meet later in the day to discuss the plans for temporarily shutting down parts of government."

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 1:43 PM | Report abuse

WHAT IS THE OBJECTION TO OPENING UP THE FILES AT THE HAWAII DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH ?


WHAT IS THE OBJECTION TO OPENING UP ALL THE COLLEGE RECORDS ???


Let's just see the documents - there is nothing wrong with that.


To actually create a name "Birther" and be derogatory toward people who simply want the documents released is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS.


Obama HAS TO BE HIDDING SOMETHING - AND THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS LIABLE.
________________________________________


PeterPamZ writes:


37, let's turn this around... How about YOU release YOUR birth records, college transcripts, credit report, maybe your voter registration card, etc.

No? Don't want other people delving into your personal business? (And please don't start "he's a public figure and I'm not" he's still a human being, like you, and some things are supposed to be kept personal.

_______________________

I will open up anything you want - If I was running for President, or if I was the President, I would WANT TO REMOVE ALL DOUBT AND SHOW ALL THE DOCUMENTS.

Obama is not acting innocent - he is acting like he has something to hide.


WHAT IS SO PERSONAL ??? SERIOUSLY, WHAT CAN BE SO PERSONAL - BEYOND SOMETHING THAT THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 1:33 PM | Report abuse

'when a person thinks more of the world thinks about things the same way than actually do.'

do you mean when someone has some loony belief and thinks everyone else feels the same way?

like when teatards say obama is ignoring the 'will of the people'?

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 1:29 PM | Report abuse

Rising up the ladder of political corruption (Chicago) and being a very active member of a racist church for over twenty years is a greater indictment than his birth status.

Posted by: c_e_daniel | May 7, 2010 1:18 PM | Report abuse

shrink --from an article on infant morality:

"Not long ago, a team of researchers watched a 1-year-old boy take justice into his own hands. The boy had just seen a puppet show in which one puppet played with a ball while interacting with two other puppets. The center puppet would slide the ball to the puppet on the right, who would pass it back. And the center puppet would slide the ball to the puppet on the left . . . who would run away with it.

Then the two puppets on the ends were brought down from the stage and set before the toddler. Each was placed next to a pile of treats. At this point, the toddler was asked to take a treat away from one puppet. Like most children in this situation, the boy took it from the pile of the “naughty” one. But this punishment wasn’t enough — he then leaned over and smacked the puppet in the head."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/magazine/09babies-t.html?src=me&ref=homepage

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 1:17 PM | Report abuse

Cosign, DDAWD. shrink2, if you know the term he's trying to think of, I would love to know it as well. It would save me a lot of keystrokes in the future.

Posted by: GJonahJameson | May 7, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Fairlington, ddawd, et al


What the country was PROMISED was a POST-RACIAL SOCIETY.

Instead - we get the word "racist" tossed around as a political attack weapon.

That is NOT POST-RACIAL.

This going to be a part of the backlash against the democrats.

If you really care about racial harmony - or impoving race relations, why would the DEMOCRATS POISON THE RACIAL ATMOSPHERE.


The answer is the democrats would much rather attack - than any concern they have for RACE RELATIONS.


So throwing the word "racist" around is really being HYPOCRITICAL AS WELL - because it is not improving race relations.


.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

"But Thursday's poll comes amidst a wave of anti-incumbent sentiment that is so severe it led National Republican Senatorial Committee Chairman John Cornyn of Texas to say earlier this week, "Thank goodness I'm not running this time."

This 'anti-incumbency' thing is pretty much all happening on the right -- so guess who it's going to hurt more in November? Interesting Governor Crist is running as an 'outsider' -- neat trick, huh? And is now running ahead of teatard Rubio?

hahahhahahah. funny election year.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Question of the Day:

What agencies or commands are behind political blog-spamming in America -- and how much is this psy op costing American taxpayers?

http://nowpublic.com/world/u-s-govt-censors-net-political-speech-targeted-americans
http://nowpublic.com/world/how-u-s-spy-ops-censor-web-political-speech


***


HOMELAND CELLULAR 'TORTURE TOWERS' ATTACK, IMPAIR, ENSLAVE 'TARGETED' AMERICANS WITH MICROWAVE RADIO FREQUENCIES...

...ONGOING CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY BEING COMMITTED BY A MULTI-AGENCY FUSION CENTER "GESTAPO."


• Naive or misinformed Obama officials turn a deaf ear to victims of Bush-Cheney genocidal programs, says veteran journalist.

http://nowpublic.com/world/u-s-silently-tortures-americans-cell-tower-microwaves
OR NowPublic.com/scrivener

(Vic Livingston is on Facebook -- when he's not being censored by a covert U.S. government surveillance and censorship regime.)

Posted by: scrivener50 | May 7, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade


Have you read the actual website of Rev. Wright's church ? Have you read what he said about the races ???


Obama brought his CHILDREN to that church for years.

If you want to talk about bigotry - in order to be honest, you have to include that chapter.

Anyway - I hold to my position that the same standards apply to everyone.

The democrats want to throw the racist word around - at whites, but rarely at blacks. THAT IS RACIST.


.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 1:07 PM | Report abuse

Shrink, there is a term for when a person thinks more of the world thinks about things the same way than actually do. It's like on the edge of my brain, but I can't recall it. You know what I'm talking about?

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Here's one for you, BB:

Washington (CNN) - Iowa voters hold Sen. Chuck Grassley in high regard, but the veteran Republican potentially faces a tough re-election in what is shaping up to be a difficult year for incumbents.

"Grassley has a favorable rating of 58 percent, according to a new Research 2000 poll conducted for KCCI. But Grassley, first elected to the Senate in 1980, has dropped 21 points over the past few months in a hypothetical match-up against Democratic challenger Roxanne Conlin. The KCCI poll shows that Grassley leads Conlin 49 percent to 40 percent. The telephone survey of 600 likely voters was conducted between May 3-5 and has a margin of error of plus or minus four percentage points.

In past elections, the five-term senator has enjoyed health margins of victory. In 2004, Grassley topped his Democratic opponent 70 percent to 28 percent."

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 1:05 PM | Report abuse

Fairlington


Why do you simply dodge the issue ??


The issue is the files in Hawaii have not been opened up


And the college records have not been opened up.

Surely you support Obama's advocacy of transparency.

So, let's hear a call to OPEN UP all the files - nothing hidden.


.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 1:03 PM | Report abuse

"Lord knows there have been enough posts along the lines of angry, white, middle-aged men (though not in this thread). "

We've had some here. too.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 1:02 PM | Report abuse

A straw man, shrink, is a fallacy in which one sets up false equivalence, refutes it, and then claims to have refuted the main argument. The use of KKK was short-hand for all birther = racists statement used early in today's thread. That's not a straw man. Rather, I associated the birther movement as yet another conspiracy theory that pops up periodically. Certainly the two posts we had earlier today came right out of the conspiracy theorists manual. Perhaps Orly Taitz can author Conspiracy Theories for Dummies.

Going back to your earlier post:

"By bigot I mean a person who is deeply, in a visceral sense, suspicious and intolerant of people who don't look like themselves and/or don't believe the same things they do. Lets not pretend, we are all bigoted to a greater or lesser extent. When I say 2 in 5, I am talking of the people who embrace their bigotry, making a virtue of it, or who are so unaware of its existence, they are beholden to it."

That's a relatively extreme world view. I stated explicitly that I used Archie as an archetype of a bigot. Lord knows there have been enough posts along the lines of angry, white, middle-aged men (though not in this thread). I did not make the argument that one has to be as openly bigoted as Archie to qualify.

Yes, I do contend that 2 in 5 is overstates the fraction of Americans who meet your definition. It's also tricky as attitudes towards race, gender, and religion track differently. Democracy Corps had a very interesting report out last year.

http://www.democracycorps.com/focus/2009/10/the-very-separate-world-of-conservative-republicans/

I'll keep an eye out for the next survey on American attitudes.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 12:58 PM | Report abuse

Now see, a few of you regulars complained about Chris's choice of topic here, but if he hadn't focused on the "birther" mindset and movement, would this enlightening discussion (with, I admit, occasional interruptions of crazy) have taken place?

Posted by: GJonahJameson | May 7, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Great article by Wilbon. I like it when high profile athletes put themselves out on a limb like that. It amounts to some level of risk. It's one thing for me to rail on the blog, another thing for Steve Nash to go and do it on TV.

(and yeah, I'd have to say this extends out to Curt Schilling as well)

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 12:48 PM | Report abuse

I have to say, too, that I wouldn't be at all surprised if the FBI monitored 37. He's clearly unhinged, unstable, and obssessive about Obama, which makes him fit the profile of potentially dangerous.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Cosign gallenod. Onto other matters as this one is used up.

Looks like there's going to be a great set of Senate primaries coming up. this year. My top 5 would be:

#1 - Kentucky (R)
#2 - Pennsylvania (D)
#3 - Arkansas (D)
#4 - Arizona (R)
#5 - California ®

Anyone else?

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

FBlade, you are setting up straw man arguments. Archie Bunker is irrelevant.
The KKK versus conspiracy kook argument is a false dichotomy. You cheerfully asserted that a very small fraction of Americans are bigots, far less than 20%. I differed darkly. But if you don't stop setting up and knocking down straw man arguments, I'll go Lucian v. Hermotimus on you.

Posted by: shrink2 | May 7, 2010 12:38 PM | Report abuse

Thank you Gallenod, eloquent.

"Attacking the person of Barrack Obama is all they have, so they keep churning the fear, uncertainty, and doubt machine as fast as they can crank it. And they are very good at it, which is why there are still millions of people willing to buy into any rationale to hate a nice, Christian, family man who really isn't who they wanted for president, some of whom likely just don't like how the color scheme of his presidential portrait clashes with the other 43.

Racism is real and present in modern American politics, much like anti-Catholicism played a role in many presidential elections up to and including Kennedy-Nixon in 1960 and that idea that sexism works against the US having a female president some day.

We're imperfect beings and we just don't like to admit it.

But let's be clear: Most of the "hate" directed at Obama is either for what he is or what he stands for. The "hate" directed at Bush is predominantly a result of what his administration actually did. Trying to conflate the two is entirely disingenuous."

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 12:36 PM | Report abuse

WHAT IS THE OBJECTION TO OPENING UP THE FILES AT THE HAWAII DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH ?


WHAT IS THE OBJECTION TO OPENING UP ALL THE COLLEGE RECORDS ???


Let's just see the documents - there is nothing wrong with that.


To actually create a name "Birther" and be derogatory toward people who simply want the documents released is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS.


Obama HAS TO BE HIDDING SOMETHING - AND THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS LIABLE.
________________________________________

37, let's turn this around... How about YOU release YOUR birth records, college transcripts, credit report, maybe your voter registration card, etc.

No? Don't want other people delving into your personal business? (And please don't start "he's a public figure and I'm not" he's still a human being, like you, and some things are supposed to be kept personal.

Posted by: PeterPamZ | May 7, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

"bigotry is a developmental disorder, a failure of cognitive development. This is to say it can happen to anyone given the absence of training and supervision in this regard; Kaspar Hauser's neuro-structural illiteracy might be analogous.

In the post-Freud (and Rousseau)) era, we like to think mental disorders are neurological diseases, not the results of neglect, bad parenting or social ills.'

Well, since there rightwing legacy kids like Podhoretz and Kristol, I think we still have to admit there is such a thing as disastrously bad parenting.

I mean, don't you think that 37's parents have a catastrophic failure on their hands?

He seems to be arrested at about the developmental age of perhaps 11. He clearly does not work or attend school, he must have someone, caretaker or institution, or he couldn't be on here every 2 minutes for 20 hours a day.

These kind of parasites are a drain on society -- surely some fault must be ascribed to bad parenting.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

okay, i know the rest of the "liberals" are doing to exile me for admitting the truth, but Obama IS NOT A U.S. CITIZEN. some will wonder how he has fooled the rest of government, the courts, etc. It's because he really hails from RomulusXY227Z. As such he has the ability to control other's thoughts, but he only does it when people bring up this topic, because he doesn't want to "cheat." His words. All liberals know this to be true, but we've been sworn to secrecy. Sure, I'll be exiled to another planet for giving up the secret, but I just love you teabagloonatics so much I couldn't help myself. kiss rush and sean and especially sarah for me. They're coming for me now.

Posted by: red2million | May 7, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

The BHO eligibility evidence and its quality submitted by BHO & crew is far from conclusive or even substantial.
The related shuck & jive by BHO & crew reveals much more.
How does that quote of grandmother wisdom go?
"That thing in your hand, Child, it is only what you are hidingThe BHO eligibility evidence and its quality submitted by BHO & crew is far from conclusive or even substantial.
The related shuck & jive by BHO & crew reveals much more.
How does that quote of grandmother wisdom go?
"That thing in your hand, Child, it's only what's your hiding."

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

http://TeaPartyConstitutionalists.ning.com/

Posted by: Russell_P_Davis | May 7, 2010 12:26 PM | Report abuse

Fairlington


It is clear that the opposition to the Arizona law is simply using racial profiling as an excuse - what they really want is OPEN BORDERS.

These groups want all Mexicans to have a free pass into the US.

I suppose these groups would like to offer a "path to citizenship" to all the Middle Eastern sleeper cells as well.


Prince William County in Virginia has had a law just like Arizona's - and the Courts have not overturned it.

It is about time the HISPANICS RESPECT US IMMIGRATION LAW - AND SUPPORT ITS ENFORCEMENT - the problem is the hispanics want OPEN BORDERS.

.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 12:26 PM | Report abuse

Sadly, hate is a function of humanity.

The birther controversy is still alive because even if just 10% of the voting population believes it, that's about 13 million people (based on the number that voted in the 2008 presidential election). That's not an insignificant number.

There will always be a certain fraction of the population that react viscerally whenever the candidate they opposed is elected president. But there are some crucial differences in the sphincter clenching going on between reactions to Bush and Obama.

With Bush, the initial "hatred" was based on the perception that he'd been given the election by the Supreme Court. No one likely hated him in any significant way because he looked different from his 42 predecessors. However, the anger about the Supreme Court, though it never quite faded, was eclipsed over the next six years by widespread dismay (both from liberals and conservatives) over the actions and performance of the Bush administration and the Republican Congress, for which Republicans were deservedly spanked, hard, in the 2006 and 2008 elections.

With Obama, when attacks on his alleged lack of experience didn't stick, his detractors started grasping for straws: communist, socialist, foreign-born, secret Muslim, palling around with terroists, etc., all aimed at him personally, not his actual performance before or since his election.

Has Obama made mistakes? Certainly. Are they close the breathtaking levels of bad governance demonstrated during the Bush administration that have been hammered by both the Left and the Right? Not even in the same universe.

Attacking the person of Barrack Obama is all they have, so they keep churning the fear, uncertainty, and doubt machine as fast as they can crank it. And they are very good at it, which is why there are still millions of people willing to buy into any rationale to hate a nice, Christian, family man who really isn't who they wanted for president, some of whom likely just don't like how the color scheme of his presidential portrait clashes with the other 43.

Racism is real and present in modern American politics, much like anti-Catholicism played a role in many presidential elections up to and including Kennedy-Nixon in 1960 and that idea that sexism works against the US having a female president some day.

We're imperfect beings and we just don't like to admit it.

But let's be clear: Most of the "hate" directed at Obama is either for what he is or what he stands for. The "hate" directed at Bush is predominantly a result of what his administration actually did. Trying to conflate the two is entirely disingenuous.

Posted by: Gallenod | May 7, 2010 12:25 PM | Report abuse

Somebody criticized Bush's birth certificate? News to me!

Note to CC - quoting Steve Nash makes one a racist. What an interesting definition.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 12:23 PM | Report abuse

shrink2 writes


As for bigotry being a mental disorder and a book on the politics of bigotry as such, I believe bigotry is a developmental disorder, a failure of cognitive development.


__________________________________-

Sure sounds like a totalitarian government which places its political opponents in a mental institution.


HHHMMM


Yea, that sounds about right - if you don't agree with us, you are a racist, and therefore you belong in an institution.


Do you realize how wrong you are ?


.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade


Clearly you are seeking to have different standards applied to those who criticize Obama - as opposed to those who criticized Bush a few years ago.

Different standards - "separate is inherently unequal"

That makes you a RACIST - clear and simple -

And until you realize that, there is no talking to you - you will just walk around with your smug feeling of self-importance.


That does not change how wrong you are.


TS


.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 12:15 PM | Report abuse

You actually beleive that phony lunar landing crap, BB? If you play the tape over and over again, you can CLEARLY see the rocks are papier mache, the same ones they used later on Star Trek. I thought you were smarter than that.

It's been DOCUMENTED.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 12:14 PM | Report abuse

"Fairlington writes:

And if 37th starts with the racism posts..."

Yeah, well what about if the tide comes in or the sun rises in the morning, then what?

Drindl, yes to your 11:37.

As for bigotry being a mental disorder and a book on the politics of bigotry as such, I believe bigotry is a developmental disorder, a failure of cognitive development. This is to say it can happen to anyone given the absence of training and supervision in this regard; Kaspar Hauser's neuro-structural illiteracy might be analogous.

In the post-Freud (and Rousseau)) era, we like to think mental disorders are neurological diseases, not the results of neglect, bad parenting or social ills.


Posted by: shrink2 | May 7, 2010 12:14 PM | Report abuse

You asked for it 37th. From Mike Wilbon's excellent column today, Steve Nash in his own words:

I'm against it. I think that this is a bill that really damages our civil liberties. I think it opens up the potential for racial profiling . . . racism. I think it's a bad precedent to set for our young people. I think it represents our state poorly in the eyes of the nation and the world. I think that we have a lot of great attributes here and [this law] is something that we could do without. And I hope it will change in the coming weeks. . . . Our owners asked us if any of us had a problem wearing the [Los Suns] jerseys and nobody did. So, I think we're pretty like-minded on the issue. This league is very multicultural. We have players from all over the world, myself obviously being a foreigner [Canadian], many of my teammates, players on other teams. Our communities are very multicultural. So I think we need to find a different way to combat the issues that we face in our society. And I think this is the wrong way to go about it.

Just so.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Birthers Gone Wild!

"The leader of a movement seeking to have President Obama indicted for treason told TPMmuckraker he was interviewed this week by the FBI.

Carl Swensson said that FBI agents, accompanied by state police, came to his Georgia home Wednesday asking for information about what law enforcement fears is a plan to take over a Tennessee judicial building. "They were concerned that we were gonna storm the courthouse," said Swensson.

He denied any intention to do so, saying that the goal was in fact to make citizen's arrests of several of the court officers. "People went up there to effect the arrest of the criminals there," he said.

As we reported yesterday, Walter Fitzpatrick, a retired naval commander and a member of the American Grand Jury (AGJ), last month was arrested and charged after trying unsuccessfully to make a citizen's arrest of the grand jury foreman in Monroe County, Tenn. The foreman, Gary Pettway, had previously declined to convene a grand jury to indict President Obama on charges of treason, AGJ's major goal. "

These folks are creating a lot of work for the FBI.

Caution birthers -- posting this stuff on popular websites is one of the data points the FBI uses to detect potentially dangerous suspects.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 12:09 PM | Report abuse

Obama has been in office for over a year now, and he has yet to be found ineligible by the Supreme Court, or arrested by the FBI, DEA, ICE, NSA, or CIA. So how much longer are the birthers going to continue beating their dead horse?

Posted by: justmike | May 7, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

No, these folks are not racists:

"The related shuck & jive by BHO & crew reveals much more. "

'Shuck and jive' indeed.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 12:04 PM | Report abuse

The posts by drjazz777 & gtb31 are illustrative. Much more a flavor of conspiracy theory than KKK.

drjazz777 makes claims about two hospitals and 16 (!) social security numbers. I'm not even going to bother to track that one down, though I think it'd get him/her a section 8. [Well, I couldn't resist. Orly Taitz truly is loopy with a capital ooh.]

gtb31 has a nutball theory that citizenship is only conferred through the father. Any child of a US citizen has US citizenship, regardless as to where they were born. Being married to a US citizen abroad, *either* parent's citizenship is adequate to confer US citizenship.

The true irony is that one of the presidential candidates last year actually was born outside the United States. So, the birther nonsense sounds like classic conspiracy theory. Right up there with the grassy knoll, the faked lunar landing, and Elvis lives! Well, the last of those is true. I saw him at the neighborhood McD's last week.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 12:00 PM | Report abuse

Do you trust Chris Cillizza? Then consider this: HI's governor Lingle lied in the interview that Chris Cillizza considers "indisputable":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO6R8E20bio

To repeat: Chris Cillizza offers a Lingle interview as "indisputable" proof, despite the fact that she lied in the very same interview.

Do you still trust Chris Cillizza?

Posted by: LonewackoDotCom | May 7, 2010 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Gallenod -- Somehow I just don't see Fiorina winning. The business stuff is really damning. Apart from the fixed deals with Russia and so forth, there was the secret dealings with Iran. They were selling them printers of course, not bombs, but the boogeyman aspect of Iran can't be ignored, so that will hurt her with the far right, and the wingers in Calfornia are pretty far out there.

Campbell too, is considered too 'liberal' by most Rs and DeVore's poll numbers are rising. So I think the R vote will undoubtedly split badly and Boxer has nothing to worry about it.

The psychological aspect no one talks about is that Fiorina has been treated for cancer and lost her hair. Frankly, I think she's remarkably brave for continuing her campaign after this ordeal, but I also think it kind of freaks people out.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

The BHO eligibility evidence and its quality submitted by BHO & crew is far from conclusive or even substatial.
The related shuck & jive by BHO & crew reveals much more.
How does that quote of grandmother wisdom go?
"That thing in your hand, Child, it is only what you are hiding."

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

http://TeaPartyConstitutionalists.ning.com/

Posted by: Russell_P_Davis | May 7, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

The records division of the state of Hawaii (yes, it is a state) recently asked permission to STOP honoring requests for Obama's birth certificate from people who were requesting it over and over again. Apparently they are obsessed with their delusion and demanding proof that they've already received many times. This doesn't sound like anything's being covered up. Also, if there were any angle to be used here, don't you think the Republicans would have already exploited it to the max?

This just shows how many stupid people there are in the country. Apparently most Americans don't even know who caused 9/11. They think it was Saddam Hussain (as Sarah did, until recently).

Posted by: DaveHarris | May 7, 2010 11:53 AM | Report abuse

Fairlington writes:


And if 37th starts with the racism posts, I'm going all Steve Nash over him.


___________________________________

A certain level of disrespect in the political discourse is expected in America - the democrats took disrespect of Bush to new levels.

The False Charges of Racism in this country have to stop - it is that simple - and it is counter to the promises of Post-Racial.

At some point, the democrats ARE going to realize that they are hurting themselves - because it is the DEMOCRATS WHO CAN NOT HANDLE HAVING A BLACK PRESIDENT.

If the democrats CAN NOT HANDLE normal political opposition and discussion of politics - it is the DEMOCRATS' PROBLEM -

The DEMOCRATS ARE BEING RACIST - BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS ARE SAYING THAT A CERTAIN LEVEL OF CRITICISM HAS TO BE ADHERED TO WITH A BLACK PRESIDENT - AS OPPOSED TO BUSH A WHITE PRESIDENT - THAT IS RACIST.

The same exact standards have to be applied - Take a look at the anti-war rallies and how Bush was portrayed by the democrats - all that is fair game now.


Again - IF THE DEMOCRATS HAVE A DIFFERENT STANDARD, THAT IS RACIST = CLEAR AND SIMPLE.

.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 11:52 AM | Report abuse

WHAT IS THE OBJECTION TO OPENING UP THE FILES AT THE HAWAII DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH ?


WHAT IS THE OBJECTION TO OPENING UP ALL THE COLLEGE RECORDS ???

Let's just see the documents - there is nothing wrong with that.

To actually create a name "Birther" and be derogatory toward people who simply want the documents released is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS.

Obama HAS TO BE HIDDING SOMETHING - AND THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS LIABLE.


.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

The truth is too, that all the attention the MSM pays to these pathetic people only emboldens them, legitimizes them, and that is only going to result in more nutcase stuff like this:

"Right-wing extremists who question the legitimacy of Barack Obama's presidency tried to take on local law enforcement recently -- and they seem to have come out on the losing end.

First, a Tennessee man was arrested after walking into his local county courthouse to try to effect a citizen's arrest of a grand jury foreman who had refused to investigate President Obama's legitimacy to serve -- an encounter partially caught on video. That enraged one Georgia-based member of the far-right OathKeepers group. Responding to a call from an extremist leader, he drove to Tennessee with an AK-47 in a bid to get his comrade released -- only to wind up getting arrested himself. "

What we are getting here is armed 'citizens' trying to 'arrest' police for 'not doing their jobs' -- wait until the AZ law really kicks in for more of this -- with hilariously predictable results.

Sadly, though, this will not all turn out this amusingly.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 11:43 AM | Report abuse

This talk from the birthers is idiotic! This one issue is the reason why America thinks you all are nothing short of brainless.....Obama has enough enemies that if he truly wasn't an American citizen, don't you think it would have been discovered by now??

Time to move on birthers, get over it, find a real issue that will fill up all this worthless time you have on your hands.....

Posted by: liberalwesterngirl | May 7, 2010 11:42 AM | Report abuse

I find Sarah Palin's endorsement of Carly Fiorina somewhat interesting considering their previous history while Fiorina was an advisor to the McCain campaign:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/16/fiorina-palin-not-qualified-to-run-company/?fbid=iIZrG0mGP89

If Fiorina ends up as the nominee look for the Boxer campaign to dredge up as much from 2008 as they can to toss at Fiorina in the general election, including her close association with McCain (now an apostate to many in the Republican right wing) and her apparent opinion that running Hewlett-Packard (into the ground) is much more demanding than being president of the United States.

Posted by: Gallenod | May 7, 2010 11:42 AM | Report abuse

Indeed, shrink. It's smart from an evolutionary viewpoint -- when we lived as animals do in the wild, in family groups -- it made sense to attack those who did not resemble your family, as they were competing for precious resources with your biological line.

So we can rightly see racism as a throwback, a devolution, with perhaps a bit of Neandertal DNA thrown in. But I don't want to insult the Neandertals...

But certainly this constant thread that somehow Obama is an Other, not one of "us" has overtones of racism, as well as xenophobia, ignorance and paranoia.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 11:37 AM | Report abuse

WHY is this meme still alive?? Why are the media still fixated on 'birthers'?? Is it because it makes a great but useless news story to fill space on a real/virtual page?? Is it because there are still people that so racist that they want ALL brown people out of their lilly-white world??

All of you have got to stop taking yourselves so seriously. The media that clings onto this is just blatantly reporting lies. The folks that say they want to believe this are just stupid. The rest of us should just ignore these clowns because it's a COMPLETE waste of time...

Posted by: rbaldwin2 | May 7, 2010 11:36 AM | Report abuse

"Thanks, Chris -- we will now get a steady stream of clinical paranoids, conspiracy theorists, and garden-variety homeless mumblers all day...

Should we great for that book you should be writing shrink, 'Political Manifestations of Mental Illness.'

Posted by: drindl"

Yeah, this is a weird as hell choice for a topic. Anyone got a link to the actual poll? I want to see what the other questions were.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 11:33 AM | Report abuse

It is about time the democrats stop using the word 'RACIST' TO TRY TO WIN ON THE ISSUES.


This has placed a great deal of POISON in our society.

First of all - the country voted FOR a post-racial country - AND OBAMA HAS NOT DELIVERED THIS.

If anything, Obama has divided the country - and INCREASED racial tensions.

Anyway - let's have more democrats scream racist - and shut down the dicussion some more.

I think the Scott Brown situation was in part related to this immaturity on the part of the democrats.

When the level of disrespect shown to BUSH is acceptable to show Obama - then we will have a race-neutral situation.

Until we are at race-neutral - we have a RACIST situation - and it the democrats who are being RACIST against the whites - by attacking them for freedom of speech and freedom of thought.


The idea of "hidden racism" behind political issues has to be eliminated - the democrats have to realize there will be opposition to a democratic president no matter what his color.

AT THIS POINT, THE DEMOCRATS ARE DEMANDING A RACIST ATMOSPHERE IN AMERICA - BY DEMANDING RESTRAINT WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES - JUST BECAUSE OBAMA IS BLACK.


Obama is black - get over it.

It is the DEMOCRATS WHO KEEP ON DRAGGING OBAMA'S RACE INTO THE CONVERSATION - NO ONE ELSE.


.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Amazing -- a celebraton of 9/11 by teatards. Guess they will all be praying together for another 9/11...


"An event described as the “Woodstock” of tea parties is planned for Sept. 11 at the Monona County Fairgrounds in Onawa in western Iowa.

Craig Halverson of Griswold, who is helping to organize the event, they are inviting prominent conservative speakers and plan to have bands perform."

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Thanks, shrink.

I will have to digest the "embrace" paradigm. Never needed that one on voir dire.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | May 7, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

"The truth is Obama
was born in two hospitals at this point! One that wasn't built until
he was 10Yrs. Old!! Well that's no problem every one gets a social
security number when they are born in America. However Obama
has used 16 different social security numbers on his rise the Presidency!!!"

Entertaining -- but how sad is it for America that we have this many people who are this idiotic?

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Thanks, Chris -- we will now get a steady stream of clinical paranoids, conspiracy theorists, and garden-variety homeless mumblers all day...

Should we great for that book you should be writing shrink, 'Political Manifestations of Mental Illness.'

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 11:17 AM | Report abuse

1. Obama is a US citizen. I'm a Republican, but these birthers are riduculous.

2. US Rep. John Boozeman will sit back and wait for the Democratic nominee to pick off. He's got a huge advantage whether it's Lincoln or Halter. Although, I think Lincoln will be the easier opponent, Halter may well beat out Lincoln. It don't matter, so either way US Rep.John Boozeman is the next US Senator of Arkansas.

3. In a close primary race like California, a Palin endorsement of Fiorina helps her immensley. A Palin endorsement against the more conservative DeVore is huge for Fiorina. She can really win this thing now. Campbell has the lead right now, but Fiorina is now the candidate with momentum and she's coming up to the top. Don't count out DeVore either, as he is likely to climb as Campbell begins to fall more and more. My pick if Fiorina to win the R nomination.

4. What a classic example of Tea Party vs. Party Establishment: Paul vs. Grayson. Paul is winning the race right now with only 11 days left! This one is going down to the wire and I truly don't know who who will win it.

Posted by: reason5 | May 7, 2010 11:15 AM | Report abuse

FOR THE RECORD there is no reason why the files at the Hawaii Department of Health can not be opened up - Obama can waive his privacy right. Given Obama's cheap talk about transparency, this small gesture should have been taken a very long time ago.

It is pretty simple.


The way Obama has lawyers defending the cases implies that there is some issue out there - perhaps relating to his adoption in Indonesia - and whether Obama had an Indonesian passport as an adult at age 18 and 19.

SO - blame the people who can release the documents


NOT THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SEE THE DOCUMENTS.


.

Posted by: 37thand0street | May 7, 2010 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Personally, I really have great difficulty in believing that Obama could have been elected had he not been a citizen. That said, I think the reluctance to reveal so many things about his life; i.e., school records, etc., encourages doubts and and plants suspicion.

Posted by: Lilycat1 | May 7, 2010 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Whether Obama was born in Hawaii is not the issue - although it is obvious that his maternal grandmother, Mrs. Dunham, worked in the Aloha Court at the time and could well have fabricated the document(s). Not to guarantee Obama a shot at the presidency, but to assure him a greater gift, American citizenship. The real question surrounds the nationality of his father, a British subject. As Justice Ginsburg has reminded us, per international laws and customs, the citizenship of the father is normally conferred on the child, irrespective of the place of birth or the citizenship of the mother. Obama is thus hoist on his own petard. He was born a British Subject
and is not eligible to be president.

Posted by: gtb31 | May 7, 2010 11:09 AM | Report abuse

"What's so horrible about showing me? Where can I see it? Seriously, where's the link?

Posted by: gary928 "

Here you go.

http://tinyurl.com/nu774u

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 11:08 AM | Report abuse

In reading various comments about my being "examined" by Chris
I find the word Racist being used. When liberals use the term racist it usually means they have lost the argument. The truth is Obama
was born in two hospitals at this point! One that wasn't built until
he was 10Yrs. Old!! Well that's no problem every one gets a social
security number when they are born in America. However Obama
has used 16 different social security numbers on his rise the Presidency!!! Then there's the foreign student loan to go to college.The lack of school mates who even noticed the dynamic Obama
at college. The grant for Harvard by a Saudi Prince who also paid
for his Grandma to go to Mecca. The early articles by journalists
not disputed saying he was "Kenya" born when he ran for Senate. It's not racism comrade it's just bloody strange. Buzzy

Posted by: drjazz777 | May 7, 2010 11:06 AM | Report abuse

"Shrink, is your "bigotry" assessment from clinical experience?"

No it comes from my understanding of research in cognitive development and moral development in particular. It turns out, what we call morality, which among other things includes the conscious embrace of the other, those who do not look like us or think like us, does not not develop 'naturally'. Like other values and skills, it has to be taught and practiced.

Posted by: shrink2 | May 7, 2010 11:00 AM | Report abuse

"Indisputable" ?? Someone said "as much" in an interview?? You're kidding me right. ANd you wonder why there is doubt.

Unfortunately, knowing what I know about how politicians say whatever they feel they have to say, regardless of the veracity of the statement, in order to push their agenda makes me one of those who would have to see the certificate for myself OR have a very trusted person in my life do the same. Elected officials have made their bed - so too must they sleep in it.

What's so horrible about showing me? Where can I see it? Seriously, where's the link?

Posted by: gary928 | May 7, 2010 10:59 AM | Report abuse

bb at 10:39AM - it is clear that he does share my assessment.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | May 7, 2010 10:54 AM | Report abuse

These numbers sound about right. A third of the righties = about 14% of the population = the percentage of hard-core racists in the country. Birthers = racists is pretty obvious to anyone living in reality.

On the bright side, the fact that hard-core racism is down to this level is encouraging. 30-40 years ago that number would have been much higher.

So that means the racists are dying off, and new ones aren't being produced fast enough to maintain the old traditions. While this may bother folks like greg3, for the rest of us it means that eventually we won't even have to think about those worthless yahoos anymore.

Posted by: bigbrother1 | May 7, 2010 10:53 AM | Report abuse

"My understanding is that liberals are comfortable with notions of complexity or, dare I say it, shades of grey. Black or white is dull.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade"

Haha, you love going for these nut shots, don't you. Man, maybe I really am incapable of nuance like I thought I was. Guess I'll go jump off a building or something.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

These numbers sound about right. A third of the righties = about 14% of the population = the percentage of hard-core racists in the country. Birthers = racists is pretty obvious to anyone living in reality.

On the bright side, the fact that hard-core racism is down to this level is encouraging. 30-40 years ago that number would have been much higher.

So that means the racists are dying off, and new ones aren't being produced fast enough to maintain the old traditions. While this may bother folks like greg3, for the rest of us it means that eventually we won't even have to think about those worthless yahoos anymore.

Posted by: bigbrother1 | May 7, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Shrink, is your "bigotry" assessment from clinical experience? My experiences as an attorney in Austin, TX have informed me of a great change in racial attitudes over 43 years. I would say that in the last 15 years it has been my experience that fewer than one in twenty adults were racists who would not vote for a black candidate under any circumstances, and that fewer than one in five considered it important enough to weigh in the voting. There were folks who had to be convinced BHO was a much better candidate than McC b/c of his race, among that one in twenty; but many of them became so convinced. Thus in Austin we have elected black City Council members at-large since 1966, a gay state rep, and a lezzie sheriff; all of whom had to deal with mud, and all of whom overcame.

If by bigotry you include even the easily rebuttable prejudice, all are guilty. In the end, I call only those whose prejudice is functionally irrebuttable "bigots". Those are the ones we have to strike from our jury panels on voir dire, and we learn how to identify them. I suspect bb shares my world view on this.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | May 7, 2010 10:50 AM | Report abuse

It is true dbw1, bigotry is non denominational and bipartisan, it is all around us.

As for this, "There is sufficient social science research to debunk that notion."

Really? If you have access to this evidence, I'd love to see it. Not to hijack the thread, but this is one of my favorite topics.

Posted by: shrink2 | May 7, 2010 10:50 AM | Report abuse

So why don't you say something, dbw, instead of just snarking?

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 10:48 AM | Report abuse

Oh good, drindl is on the board today. Name-calling, avoidance of real questions, and lengthy cut-and-pastes from Huffington Post can't be far behind.....

Posted by: dbw1 | May 7, 2010 10:39 AM | Report abuse

Kenyan or not he sucks.

Posted by: dashriprock | May 7, 2010 10:39 AM | Report abuse

drindl's link has it about right. Conspiracy theory writ large. That's quite distinct from birther = bigot. Or TP'er = bigot. Or even Republican = bigot. All sloppy thinking and you can bet that no Democratic strategist allows himself or herself the luxury of such an easy notion. It makes about as much sense as Dick Cheney pushed the Iraq war so his Halliburton stock would increase in value. I can just see him checking with his broker before a cabinet meeting.

I accept (even embrace) shrink's definition of bigot, though surely there has to be decent research on this particular question. Take Archie Bunker as the archetype. 2/5 of the populace? Ridiculous! There is sufficient social science research to debunk that notion.

That is quite distinct from having prejudicial feelings. I had a vivid illustration of that when I was a college student. The summer after college, some friends and I rented a house in a low rent section of St. Paul (near Marshall & Victoria for bsimon's benefit). To get to a chi chi set of shops about half a mile away, I had to walk by a youth center. Typically a collection of African American teenagers would be hanging outside, just shooting the breeze. Always gave me the willies walking by and I knew it wasn't because it was a group of teens, rather than it was a group of black teens. Didn't stop me from doing, just made aware of some prejudices that I'd internalized. That sort of feeling is probably universal, just manifests itself in different ways.

A bigot would likely complain to friends about all the hoodlums in the neighborhood, maybe even deface the youth center or yell epithets while driving by.

Note: disputing this notion is NOT a defense of birthers. It's an idiotic concept. People who had never even heard of a long form birth certificate (or had seen a copy of theirs in years) were suddenly experts in Hawaii's birth registry. Rather, it is acknowledgement that birthers are a manifestation of multiple phenomena, not just racism. My understanding is that liberals are comfortable with notions of complexity or, dare I say it, shades of grey. Black or white is dull.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 10:39 AM | Report abuse

Personally, I like seeing stories about birthers and/or Sarah Palin. They bring out some of the most entertaining comments.

Posted by: justmike | May 7, 2010 10:36 AM | Report abuse

shrink2:
"I would bet closer to 2 in 5 Americans are bigots. By bigot I mean a person who is deeply, in a visceral sense, suspicious and intolerant of people who don't look like themselves and/or don't believe the same things they do."

I tend to agree with shrink2 about the level of bigotry in America. Considering the knee-jerk irrational hatred you see from the left whenever a woman dares to espouse conservative beliefs, or whenever a person of any stripe gathers enough courage to raise his hand and question a policy from this White House, knowing he'll immediately be labeled a 'racist' for doing so, one can only include there does remain a large element of bigotry...on the left.

Posted by: dbw1 | May 7, 2010 10:35 AM | Report abuse

More LOL:

"Don't you think it's a little unusual that he won't release his birth certificate, college grades, etc? His own grandmother said that he was born in Kenya."

Now you understand how these people elect Republicans. They are completely cut off from objective reality -- in other words, FOX viewers. They might as well be in another universe. That is one way of defining mental illness.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 10:34 AM | Report abuse

"Wonderful, optimistic...if only it were true. If there were some way to test this, I would bet closer to 2 in 5 Americans are bigots."

...and probably 1 of every 2 republicans.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 10:31 AM | Report abuse

@Moonbat: The election is over. Obama's school records are not a requirement to his being the President. And it is only a birther rumor that he has spent millions to keep his records private.

Obama meets the requirements to be President. He was elected President by almost 70 million people. He is the President. In my opinion, he is a really good President.

Posted by: Cyclopsina | May 7, 2010 10:30 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: jaxas70

"...I want to repeat this point because I believe it is important. Birthers, Birchers, militia types, the tea party movement--all of these are fractions. Cillizza likes to keep them alive because they make for good copy and Fox News-like ratings. He does not give one healthy crap about what this sort of sewer sludge does to the image of the country, or to the families who are stained by such filth. All he cares about is his squalid little perch in the world of political punditry.

This is a lie. Chris knows it is a lie. And he knows that the birthers themselves know it is a lie. It is a silly little game they play. They pretend to be serious in their nonsensical belief. He pretends that there must be something more profound going on with the birthers, and they keep this pathetic little media merry-go-around going until both have gotten what they want out of what they both know is a lie..."

Posted by: rowens1 | May 7, 2010 10:20 AM | Report abuse

pmendez: "I concur with Moonbat!"

That sums up the teatard position on any issue quite well.

Posted by: koolkat_1960 | May 7, 2010 10:19 AM | Report abuse

Obama's mother being a U.S. citizen by birth does not automatically make him a U.S. citizen if he was in fact born in Africa or any other place outside the U.S. (See the Immigration and Nationality Act, or INA, for details). He would still need to meet certain requirements under the INA.

Don't you think it's a little unusual that he won't release his birth certificate, college grades, etc? His own grandmother said that he was born in Kenya.

Posted by: RB1019 | May 7, 2010 10:15 AM | Report abuse

"I am not arguing that overt or subliminal racism plays a big role, but I don't subscribe to the notion that 1 in 5 Americans is a bigot." FBlade

No need for the flame-proof gear brother,
you have rose colored glasses to protect you.

Wonderful, optimistic...if only it were true. If there were some way to test this, I would bet closer to 2 in 5 Americans are bigots.

By bigot I mean a person who is deeply, in a visceral sense, suspicious and intolerant of people who don't look like themselves and/or don't believe the same things they do. Lets not pretend, we are all bigoted to a greater or lesser extent.

When I say 2 in 5, I am talking of the people who embrace their bigotry, making a virtue of it, or who are so unaware of its existence, they are beholden to it.

When we speak of a good person, one who has character, or is mature, we speak of people who are aware of their issues and work to keep them always in mind, just so to battle them. Avarice, venality, lust, yes those deadly sins...do not drive the behavior of good people. I'd add bigotry to the list, though of the ancient list, a combo pack of wrath and pride comes close.

Posted by: shrink2 | May 7, 2010 10:13 AM | Report abuse

Chris,

What you don't seem to get is that people are free to question and disbelieve anything. Nothing is "indisputable" and nothing is a "fact"-- especially if you don't agree with it. People forge their own realities and vote accordingly.

Posted by: youba | May 7, 2010 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 10:09 AM | Report abuse

And how many of these 14% believe that when they get an e-mail from the unfairly deposed former finance minister of Nigeria who wants them to help him get untold millions out of a secret account in Switzerland- send the money?

Posted by: poppysue85 | May 7, 2010 10:07 AM | Report abuse

"While it is highly unlikely (not impossible, mind you, just highly unlikely)that Obama's mother would have gone to Kenya to give birth, there is something HUGELY suspicious about the secrecy surrounding Obama's original birth certificate, college records, and time in Indonesia.

What is behind this wall of secrecy? "

LOL... I mean, hilarious stuff. Here's a link to explain:

" I disagree with Zack's assessment of natural-born-citizen Birthers vs. Kenyan-born Birthers being different entities. I read the freerepublic birther threads with great relish, and I can assure you that NBC-obsessed and Kenyan-born Birthers freely collaborate and trade ideas.

In fact, there are other types of Birthers beside those two; there are those who believe that Obama is in fact qualified to be president, but that his birth certificate contains information that would deviate from or dilute the public biography of the man--something like his father being Frank Marshall Davis, or his race being listed as White on the original certificate. There are also Birthers who believe that Obama was born in the US, but has raised as the ultimate Manchurian Candidate mole, by socialist/Muslim overseers. There are even Birthers who believe that the great secret of his birth is that he is one of a set of twins, for reasons I haven't been able to entirely puzzle out.

I see Birthers as a manifestation of the classic type of conspiracy theorist. They constantly evolve their theories to fit whatever tidbit has most recently piqued their interest, whether it be the newest announcement from the Hawaii Department of Health, or whatever forged Kenyan birth certificate has surfaced recently. Compare them with Kennedy assassination theorists: some think the Mob did it, some think the CIA did it, some think it was LHO with assistance from the KGB. In the end, the small differences don't matter as much from the outside. The fever swamp still looks like a fever swamp to anyone standing outside of it.

For a great example of the cross pollination and internal hostility this debate has created among conservatives, check out this thread on freerepublic, where you can see all the different Birther types (and their right-wing betes noir) co-mingling and swapping ideas and insults.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2507745/posts?q=1&;page=1

{Caution: freerepublic is a sewer}

Nutbags, in other words.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 10:05 AM | Report abuse

Pmendex comment is typical of birthers. They talk in shocked and hushed tones about an air of "secrecy" surrounding Obama's birth. This is sheer rubbish! Anyone out there who paid any attention to this silly controversy and who has watched as the nation's media actually took this lunacy seriously, can tell you that not only has proof of Obama's birth in Hawii been shown on national television, they even have a birth announcement from the newspaper archives for that day.

There is no air of secrecy. If you want to talk about an air of secrecy, why has the media been so reluctant to open up the case files on Limbaugh's drug addiction, Beck's alcoholism and abuse, O'Reilly' phone sex addiction and Bill Bennett's gambling addiction? Not to mention the secrecy surrounding John McCain's little fling with a female lobbyist. Or Jophn Boehner's illegal use of campaign donations to fund his golf outings.

Posted by: jaxas70 | May 7, 2010 10:05 AM | Report abuse

you might be a little optimistic in thinking the rate is going to remain constant from now until November. The rate has been improving pretty much from the start of the stimulus package.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 10:01 AM | Report abuse

"More confident employers stepped up job creation in April, expanding payrolls by 290,000, the most in four years. The jobless rate rose to 9.9 percent as people streamed back into the market looking for work.

Private employers — the backbone of the economy — boosted jobs, too. They added a surprisingly strong 231,000 positions last month, also the most since March 2006, the Labor Department reported Friday.

"Clearly companies have a newfound confidence in the future of the economic recovery and on the part of their own business prospects," said Joel Naroff, president of Naroff Economic Advisors. "The broadbased job gains are an indication that businesses are feeling more comfortable about expanding their work forces," he said.

The unemployment rate rose from 9.7 percent in March to 9.9 percent in April, mainly because 805,000 jobseekers — perhaps feeling better about their prospects — resumed their searches for work."

Republicans will try to spin this of course -- as they do everything -- but the truth is, the economy is recovering. What a blow to them, when they were praying the country would sink into a depression.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 10:00 AM | Report abuse

DDAWD:

Keep in mind that the US imports about 135,000 foreign workers each month. So, the 290,000 is really net 155,000 for Americans (i.e. voters).

Assuming this rate keeps up, and that Euro-crisis doesn't start the next leg down, that's less than a million jobs added by November. With 25 million unemployed or underemployed, that's not a big bump.

See ya in November!

Posted by: pmendez | May 7, 2010 9:52 AM | Report abuse

The birthers say they are just good citizens and just want to restore the sense of supremacy to real-American values. They say they are the loyal guardians of liberty. This was also said by six middle-class Civil War veterans from Pulaski, Tennessee on December 24, 1865.

Posted by: whocares666 | May 7, 2010 9:52 AM | Report abuse

hey dbw

"And shallow-thinkers like 'madest', who clearly can't actually defend policy positions, are content to use the same extremist labels against anyone who disagrees with them."

Oh, you mean like 'socialist'? You guys are so good at projection. Your thinking is so twisted I doubt you even realize it.

Posted by: drindl | May 7, 2010 9:48 AM | Report abuse

I concur with Moonbat!

While it is highly unlikely (not impossible, mind you, just highly unlikely)that Obama's mother would have gone to Kenya to give birth, there is something HUGELY suspicious about the secrecy surrounding Obama's original birth certificate, college records, and time in Indonesia.

What is behind this wall of secrecy?

Posted by: pmendez | May 7, 2010 9:48 AM | Report abuse

BB, I swear, you have the strangest choices as to who you choose to defend. Of course the birthers are bigoted.

But I think the 290k jobs is more significant than the 9.9% unemployment. People are more likely to think "do I have a job?" than about the rate in general. And that's 290k more people who will be able to answer that question in the affirmative.

Republicans need to lobby to get these midterms held in like June. It's really not going to be good for them if people keep getting jobs between now and November.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 9:42 AM | Report abuse

Thanks again WAPO for publishing multiple articles about this person who deserves not one line of media attention. Apparently there is a large segment of the population that will perish if they don't get a daily dose of sarah palin. Not one day goes by without multiple articles about this person. Really, sarah wants people to vote for conservatives? Thanks for the information, I would have never guessed it without these articles. Oh, and don't let me end without thanking the post for pictures of palin that are also in the news every single day. I really think the post should have a separate news agency with daily publication that is devoted solely to covering every single second of her life.

Posted by: red2million | May 7, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

I want to repeat this point because I believe it is important. Birthers, Birchers, militia types, the tea party movement--all of these are fractions. Cillizza likes to keep them alive because they make for good copy and Fox News-like ratings. He does not give one healthy crap about what this sort of sewer sludge does to the image of the country, or to the families who are stained by such filth. All he cares about is his squalid little perch in the world of political punditry.

This is a lie. Chris knows it is a lie. And he knows that the birthers themselves know it is a lie. It is a silly little game they play. They pretend to be serious in their nonsensical belief. He pretends that there must be something more profound going on with the birthers, and they keep this pathetic little media merry-go-around going until both have gotten what they want out of what they both know is a lie.

Posted by: jaxas70 | May 7, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

hmmm...290,000 people have jobs who didn't have jobs at the end of March.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 7, 2010 9:35 AM | Report abuse

And Mc Cain was born in Panama. Hawaii is not considered abroad, and Chris, stop this silly non-sense. Or get a real job.

Posted by: crrobin | May 7, 2010 9:33 AM | Report abuse

Perhaps I should send Jake an email as the birther movement actually IS on topic today. It is far too convenient, dare I say it intellectually lazy, to simply state birther = racist and end it there.

[Excuse me for a moment while I put on my flame retardant gear. There.]

I am not arguing that overt or subliminal racism plays a big role, but I don't subscribe to the notion that 1 in 5 Americans is a bigot. Obama's unusual family history certainly plays a role. Couple economic anxiety with big societal changes and you get this. Fortunately for Democrats, the Birthers, like the Tea Partiers, are solid Republicans and it doesn't mean that much for the broader electorate. And if 37th starts with the racism posts, I'm going all Steve Nash over him.

In other news, we get a split decision in the Most Interesting Number of the Day. For the left: 290,000 new jobs added. For the right: unemployment rate rises to 9.9%. New unemployment claims are also dropping to the mid-400s. Not too far above the level needed for sustained job growth (~400k).

My guess is the 1992 election is the right metaphor. The recession had ended, but not soon enough for Bush 41.

¡Viva Los Suns!

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | May 7, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

katem1: the whole point of polls is to reflect the population as a whole. if they are done right, they do translate to the entire population, otherwise they would be worthless

Posted by: JoeT1 | May 7, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

Look. It is pretty obvious that Cillizza is a cheerleader for the tea party groups. But even that ditzy group is embarrassed by this tin hat silliness. Chris seems to be impressed by the stick-to-it-ness of the birthers. Think about that for a minute. Enough people get together and swear up and down every single day that they have evidence that the Moon landing never took place and, if the government proves absolutely that it did, normally one would think that would end the debate in the press, right? But not for the birthers. Like the OJ jury, not even a video tape of OJ actually caught inflagrante' in the act would be sufficient to convince them.

But in the world of ratings chasing punditry, truth is the first casualty. Cillizza isn't concerned about the truth he just loves the story and the knuckeheads pushing the story. And he wants to keep it alive just for the bare possibility that he will increase his own ratings and circulation with the red meat hungry crowd on the right.

I don't know what you would call this but I do know it isn't journalism.

Posted by: jaxas70 | May 7, 2010 9:27 AM | Report abuse

it does not matter if prez obama was born in hawaii or africa. it does not matter that his father was not a citizen of the u.s. what matters is that his mother WAS a citizen of the UNITED STATES at the time of giving birth to a future president of the united states. therefore the prez is a citizen of the U.S by birth. the constitution does not state that a president has to be born on american soil only that he must be an "natural born" american citizen from birth. otherwise john mccain born in the panama canal zone could not be prez.
i think this is a grand plot by the kenedy clan to sneak back into the white house by getting foreign born ARNOLD elected prez!
also there is a section of the constitution that states that residents born under foreign governments after the adoption of the constitution are citizens.

Posted by: david-fahey1 | May 7, 2010 9:25 AM | Report abuse

The latest polls show that 93% of birthers believe they have been "altered" by aliens from the planet Nincompoopius.

Posted by: hoser3 | May 7, 2010 9:15 AM | Report abuse

madest:
"It's simple. Birthers are racist. The end."

And there you have it, the very reason that the LEFT-wing media keeps the birther-thing going. I haven't seen anything on this so-called birther controversy appear on any right-leaning news sites in many months...if not over a year.

It's right out of the leftist playbook from the 1960's. Continuously discredit the opposition. Equate disagreement with their left-wing policies with being racists, Nazi's, or any other extreme distasteful and evil line of thinking.

It's a blatant attempt to scare those in the middle, the ones who may have voted for Obama but are realizing their vote for "hope and change" is looking more and more like a vote for "more taxes and corrupt government".

Thinking of voting against Obama and Democrats this fall? Careful, we'll paint you as a racist extremist just like any one else who dares question our leftist ideology. Are you sure Obama was born in the U.S.? No? AH-HA!! We got you! You are a racist!

So disagreement becomes racism. And shallow-thinkers like 'madest', who clearly can't actually defend policy positions, are content to use the same extremist labels against anyone who disagrees with them. It's the Way of the Left. Don't debate the actual issues; leftists can't win those, because neither history not logic is on their side. Name-calling, threats, and intimidation are the leftist's only hope.

Posted by: dbw1 | May 7, 2010 9:13 AM | Report abuse

READ americangrandjury.org

Posted by: yourmomscalling | May 7, 2010 9:12 AM | Report abuse

The whole argument that Obama is not an american citizen is ridiculous. Even if this were true President Obama's mother was a US citizen which makes him a US citizen. Where he was born doesn't make a difference either way. But as a Democrat the more the crazies in the GOP talk about this the better.

Posted by: AndyR3 | May 7, 2010 9:03 AM | Report abuse

Birthers, Tea Party, militias -- distractions to shield a rogue bureaucracy from accountability...

HOMELAND FUSION CENTERS SILENTLY ASSAULT CITIZENS WITH MICROWAVE 'TORTURE TOWERS' GOD MACHINE: VETERAN JOURNO

"The scalar waves produced by the microwave/laser radio frequency directed energy weapon (RFDE) are capable of carrying multiple "subcarrier" radio frequencies that affect human physiology, at variable power levels (or "amplitude"). In effect, the RFDE represents a "God machine" that can manipulate, disrupt, or destroy the biological processes that govern the functioning of human beings.

-- Veteran Journalist Vic Livingston, from:

http://nowpublic.com/world/u-s-silently-tortures-americans-cell-tower-microwaves

ATTACKS GO ON AS OBAMA ADMIN DOES NOTHING TO STOP FUSION CENTER ATROCITIES, COMMUNITY-BASED VIGILANTE TERRORISM

"America's most serious terrorism threat emanates from a rogue bureaucracy."

http://nowpublic.com/world/gestapo-usa-govt-funded-vigilante-network-terrorizes-america

OR NowPublic.com/scrivener re: "U.S. Silently..." and "Gestapo USA..."

Posted by: scrivener50 | May 7, 2010 8:56 AM | Report abuse

To abelcardo6 - Health care is not as readily or cheaply available as you posit. (BTW the link comes up as "suspicious" when clicked on, so I can't investigate it.) SOME FORM of minimal coverage MAY be available at that price for the young and healthy. I purchased a bridge policy from Aetna for my college grad so he had some coverage. However, those individual healthcare policies rise steeply with the age of the insured, and if there are any preexisting conditions, they are not covered under those policies, which renders them practically meaningless.

Posted by: jschafin2 | May 7, 2010 8:56 AM | Report abuse

"madest" at 8:27am said it better, in much fewer words:

"It's simple. Birthers are racist. The end."

Ditto.

Posted by: broadwayjoe | May 7, 2010 8:54 AM | Report abuse

What's there to "examine"? Why are you fronting this bigoted smear of our President?

A whole host of journalists have exposed this junk as a racist proxy agenda pushed by those who refuse to accept our first black president. If Fix doesn't know this, as a commercial used to say, he needs to "ax" somebody, preferably a Post coworker like Eugene Robinson, E.J. Dionne, or Colbert King or Frank Rich at the Times.

Fix, read your Post coworkers' stuff now and then, it's actually pretty good. From Eugene Robinson:

"If there's been a more clinically insane political phenomenon in my lifetime than the "birthers," I've missed it. Is this what our national discourse has come to? Sheer paranoid fantasy?

I'm talking about the people who have convinced themselves that Barack Obama was not really born in the United States, and thus is ineligible to be president.

* * * *

Is this an orchestrated campaign to somehow delegitimize Obama's presidency? Is the fact that he is the first African American president a factor? Is it that some people can't or won't accept that he won the election and serves as commander in chief?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/03/AR2009080302219.html
___________

...and check out Glenn Thrush of politico.com.

"Surprise, surprise: Birther sentiment was strongest in the South and among the 60-plus crowd - presumably because seniors can't log on to the Internet and rely on rumor, word of mouth and right-wing talk radio.

When do we start a serious dialog about the Birther movement being a proxy for racism that is unacceptable to articulate in more direct terms?"

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0709/58_of_GOP_not_suredont_beleive_Obama_born_in_US.html#comments
________________________

Fix's post reminds us of a blog that "examined" whether a Harvard Law School student's email stating, in essence, she could be convinced blacks weren't innately less intelligent than whites was racist. To even ask the question--to even join the "debate"--plunges one into the heart of white supremacist insanity.

Take your "examinations" of the racist birther "movement" to Drudge or stormfront. Keep it out of the Post, por favor.

Ugh.

Posted by: broadwayjoe | May 7, 2010 8:49 AM | Report abuse

moonbat wants Obama's belly button lint for important verification.

Posted by: margaretmeyers | May 7, 2010 8:45 AM | Report abuse

Oh dear. Unemployment still feeling the effects of Obamanomics. Continues to head in the liberal direction.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 8:35 AM | Report abuse

It is not just the notion the he wasn't born here. There are also questions about his school records, his passport and more. Why would he spend millions to keep this info hidden. It may not be exactly a question of citizenry, but there is something politically toxic there that berry is determined to keep hidden.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 8:32 AM | Report abuse

It's simple. Birthers are racist. The end.

Posted by: madest | May 7, 2010 8:27 AM | Report abuse

The FBI is now investigating THE HIDDEN MUSLIM MESSAGES in GOOGLE MAPS.The FEDS are on the case:

http://americaspeaksink.com/2010/05/hidden-islamic-message-update/

Posted by: CRich1 | May 7, 2010 8:18 AM | Report abuse

pretty sad when all of your sources for this entry are polls. And by the way CC, a poll does not mean that 1 in 5 Americans believe this crap, it means 1 in 5 of the poll respondents do. BIG DIFFERENCE!!! this is like how Kurtz was claiming in his chat that 70% of Arizonians support the law, when in fact 70% of poll respondents. WaPo is getting so bad for this!!! They act like their wapo/abc polls are written in stone true. Pathetic!

Posted by: katem1 | May 7, 2010 8:08 AM | Report abuse

CC, my interest in Campbell is precisely because I think Boxer is a lightweight, and the most credible and electable alternative appears to be Campbell, according to my friends and family members in CA.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | May 7, 2010 8:08 AM | Report abuse

We barely read anything about Tom Campbell outside CA. CC, would you give us a profile and racing form on him sometime soon - before the primary?

Posted by: mark_in_austin | May 7, 2010 8:05 AM | Report abuse

If they were not so insanely stupid and violent I would find the baggers funny. These people were asleep under that moron w but have awakened as zombies. Terrifying fools. It is only the smartest bagger who believes that the President was not born in the US.

Posted by: davidsawh | May 7, 2010 7:55 AM | Report abuse

No birther talk allowed.

Ban yourself Cilizza.

Traffic must be way down. The perils of letting the stooges dominate.

Posted by: Moonbat | May 7, 2010 7:41 AM | Report abuse

Under Health Care Reform, If you do not have medical insurance you can be penalized, but you can easily find medical insurance under $40 http://ow.ly/1AqF1

Posted by: abelcardo6 | May 7, 2010 7:17 AM | Report abuse

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