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Morning Fix: Joe Wilson and the Laws of Political Chaos



The shout heard round the world. Photo by Chip Somodevilla/Getty Image

South Carolina Rep. Joe Wilson's (R) outburst on the House floor during President Obama's address on health care serves as a useful reminder of the power of unpredicted and unplanned events in politics.

Had Wilson said nothing, the narrative coming out of the Obama's speech would have been whether he had done enough to convince wavering members of his own party to get behind his proposal. (And, the tepid statement released by the conservative Blue Dogs in the House would have gotten a lot more attention.)

Instead, the after-action report of the speech focused almost exclusively on Wilson's outburst and allowed the White House to paint the South Carolina Republican as the essence of blind partisanship.

Electoral politics is filled with examples just like this -- where one unplanned or unchoreographed moment changed things in a moment.

A few off the top of the Fix head:

HRC Tears Up: When Hillary Rodham Clinton choked up at a campaign event just 24 hours before the 2008 New Hampshire primary, some analysts took it as a sign that she was cracking under the pressure of the campaign. Voters had the opposite reaction as it humanized Clinton to many and played a part -- how large we may never know -- in the stunning upset win she scored in the Granite State primary.

The Wellstone Memorial Service: The death of the late Sen. Paul Wellstone (D-Minn.) less than two weeks before the 2002 election set off a wild series of events culminating in a memorial service carried on national television that many people thought took on a far too partisan tinge. Voters went on to reject former Sen. Walter Mondale (D), who had stepped in to replace Wellstone on the ballot, in favor of Norm Coleman (R) who even Republicans acknowledged was headed to defeat before Wellstone's death.

The Lazio Approach: Rep. Rick Lazio (R) was in striking distance of Hillary Clinton in the 2000 New York Senate race when, at a debate, he decided to approach Clinton's podium to demand that she sign a campaign finance pledge. What Lazio had hoped would look bold and refreshing came across as confrontational and rude. His campaign never recovered.

Reagan on the Mic: In a contentious debate in New Hampshire during the 1980 presidential primaries, the debate moderator asked that Ronald Reagan's microphone be turned off. Reagan, ever quick on his feet, grabbed the microphone and roared "I am paying for this microphone" -- a remark that won him huge applause in the room and came to symbolize Reagan's leadership style.

The Muskie Tear: Maine Sen. Ed Muskie (D), responding to a barrage of editorials from the Manchester (N.H.) Union-Leader about -- among other things -- his wife, held a press conference in front of the newspaper offices to denounce the charges. Reporters who covered the speech thought Muskie was crying although he denied it and some have observed that the falling snow could have given the effect of tears on Muskie's fate. The damage was done as Muskie was pegged as insufficiently tough to be president.

Those examples -- and there are MANY more -- make clear that while politics is, at times, the most scripted of affairs, it is often the times when politicians go off script that make history.

Have other examples of the unexpected changing the course of a policy debate or a political race? The comments section awaits.

Friday's Fix Picks: Is three fantasy football leagues two to many?

1. Does President Obama have an Afghanistan problem?
2. Larry Sabato predicts 20-30 seat gain for Republicans in House.
3. Tpaw on health care and 2012.
4. How Martha Coakley maneuvered into frontrunner status in Massachusetts.
5. Where's the weed?

The Sanford Saga, Part XLI: Need to cut through all of the back and forth in the continuing drama surrounding whether South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford (R) will stay or go? Simply put: Sanford and the Republican-controlled state legislature are now in what amounts to a staring contest. Sanford has no plans to resign and is essentially daring the state legislature to take up impeachment proceedings against him. State House Speaker Bobby Harrell and state Senate President Glenn McConnell can convene a special session on their own but would need a two-thirds vote in each chamber to impeach the governor. It is not immediately clear whether the two men are willing to try that high-wire act unless and until they are sure they have the votes. If no special session is called, then the matter would have to wait until January when the legislature convened in its normal session. Looming over all of this back and forth is the ongoing investigation by the South Carolina Ethics Commission into whether Sanford misused state funds. The commission is expected to release its report to the state legislature although no time line for delivery has been set.

Card for Senate: Former Bush White House chief of staff Andy Card is reportedly very interested in running in the special election to replace the late Sen. Ted Kennedy and has reached out to national Republicans to gauge their potential involvement, according to sources familiar with the process. A Card candidacy would draw national attention to the race -- he would be the first high ranking Bush staffer to seek office -- but would be an uphill battle due to Massachusetts' strong Democratic tendencies and the baggage Card would carry from his years working for Bush.

President Franken?: Newly minted Minnesota Sen. Al Franken (D) will headline Sen. Tom Harkin's annual steak fry in Indianola, Iowa this weekend -- an event that has become a proving ground for politicians with national ambitions. At the 2007 steak fry, every major Democratic presidential contender spoke and former president Bill Clinton and former vice president Al Gore have both addressed the gathering. Franken isn't likely to join that group any time soon but he is the sort of national draw that will ensure a packed house even in a non-election year in Iowa. Did we mention that tickets are still available???

Click It!: Amid twin controversies surrounding their nominees in Virginia and New Jersey, the Republican Governors Association launched new television ads in both states designed to put the pressure back on the Democrats. In New Jersey, the RGA's ad hammers Gov. Jon Corzine (D) as a tax-raising "failure"; the Virginia ad attacks state Sen. Creigh Deeds' alleged support for a gas tax. In both races, Republicans need to change the subject and these ads are an attempt to do just that.

A New Poersch!: Democratic fundraiser Jennifer Yocham Poersch and her husband, Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee executive director J.B. Poersch, welcomed their second daughter into the world just after noon on Thursday. Claire Vaughan Poersch weighed in at 7 pounds, 10 ounces and joins her big sister Catie in the Poersch household.

Talk to Me: The weekly "Live Fix" chat goes down at 11 a.m. today. You can submit questions in advance or just follow along with the proceedings in real time. To raise the degree of difficulty, we will be babysitting Charlie Fix while chatting. Multitasking!

Say What?: "David Vitter's looking the way an animal does when he's locked in a cage." -- Louisiana Democratic Rep. Charlie Melancon on Republican Sen. David Vitter (R) who he is challenging in 2010.

By Chris Cillizza  |  September 11, 2009; 5:29 AM ET
Categories:  Morning Fix  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Assessing the Wilson Fallout: A Re-Energized Democratic Base
Next: Friday Governors Line: The First 15!

Comments

http://robparis.blogspot.com/2009/09/you-distract.html

Now Wilson must be aware that he was a bad boy. Rather than formally disapproving of Wilson, why not send him to the corner for 15 minutes to think about what he did. Wilson was obviously aware that the Democrats disapproved of what he said, and that the Republicans didn't. That's why the vote went along party lines. I don't see the point of formally disapproving. If the resolution was to make a point, then they should have made a point. Instead, Democrats chose to stick his nose in it and make him sleep in the backyard.

Posted by: robparisblog | September 16, 2009 11:46 PM | Report abuse

THE TIME FOR HEALTH CARE DEBATE IS OVER
THE REPUBLICANS HAVE HAD THEIR FUN,
NOW IT'S TIME TO GIT R DONE!

Posted by: seemstome | September 13, 2009 8:20 AM | Report abuse

FairlingtonBlade:

The disruption did not have to come during the speech to cause every network anchor to talk about that instead of Bush's speech. Together with the Dems disruption during the speech, it provided MORE resistance than two words from one man.

Posted by: JakeD | September 13, 2009 1:23 AM | Report abuse

There, folks, is the alternate reality of the right. Someone disrupting a speech, even though they've been escorted from the Capital prior to the speech beginning. Perhaps Bush heard her yelling from the DC jail.

==

You're not new here, do you really expect anything other than lies from him?

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 12, 2009 5:39 PM | Report abuse

Jezebel is a women's page, but everyone can enjoy this What Would Judge Judy do comic. Here she takes Joe Wilson to school.

http://jezebel.com/5357787/comic-confrontations-judge-judy-vs-joe-wilson/gallery/

Posted by: margaretmeyers | September 12, 2009 5:13 PM | Report abuse

There, folks, is the alternate reality of the right. Someone disrupting a speech, even though they've been escorted from the Capital prior to the speech beginning. Perhaps Bush heard her yelling from the DC jail.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | September 12, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

2003, Wilson voted to provide federal funds for illegal immigrants’ healthcare. The vote came on the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003, which contained Sec. 1011 authorizing $250,000 annually between 2003 and 2008 for government reimbursements to hospitals who provide treatment for uninsured illegal immigrants. The program has been extended through 2009 and there is currently a bipartisan bill in Congress to make it permanent.

Posted by: junkgohere | September 12, 2009 3:27 PM | Report abuse

Cindy Sheehan (AND the Dems booing GWB which was my other point) was a bigger disruption than Rep. Joe Wilson. No mistake, no retraction.

Posted by: JakeD | September 12, 2009 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Still waiting for a retraction about someone disrupting a Bush State of the Union speech. Tricky to do when you've been removed from the chambers.

==

Admitting a mistake is indicative of strength of character and personal integrity. I think you're in for a long wait.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 12, 2009 3:23 AM | Report abuse

I haven't done this in a few days as I've been a bit busy, though lurking. It's the start of the bowling season and I'm the league secretary. Anyway...

Count Name
48 JakeD
19 yeswiican
17 drindl
14 bobbywc
13 Fate1
12 nodebris
12 shrink2
11 ruraledcomm
10 broadwayjoe
8 DDAWD
7 Gallenod
7 TheBabeNemo
3 LuthienKennedy
3 margaretmeyers
3 njacobs
3 sverigegrabb
2 dee5
2 ENuffSaid1
2 GoldAndTanzanite
2 sltiowa
1 AndyR3
1 barryrosenfeld
1 bloodwor003
1 brokenglassdemocrat
1 bwcolq
1 DwightCollins
1 dylansdad15
1 edlharris
1 imeldamurphy
1 jharringbone
1 jhpurdy
1 koolkat_1960
1 lucygirl1
1 mark_in_austin
1 mikeinmidland
1 molsonmich
1 OregonStorm
1 PulSamsara
1 randy1932
1 Richard18
1 RUKidding0
1 SeniorMoment
1 thebobbob
1 Ticdoulouroux1
1 txmarjie

Still waiting for a retraction about someone disrupting a Bush State of the Union speech. Tricky to do when you've been removed from the chambers.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | September 12, 2009 12:33 AM | Report abuse

Governor Mark Sanford has some bimbo stashed in South America & uses the States jet to visit her. Joe Wilson an elected member of Congress from South Carolina shouts insults at the President of the United States as the country watches. It's easy to understand why retirees pick North Carolina over their neighbor to the south. It's also easy to understand why South Carolina is one of the poorest states in the country. They should succeed from the Union again, now no one would stop them.

Posted by: wasaUFO | September 12, 2009 12:28 AM | Report abuse

Contributions to Rob Miller have exceeded a million dollars already. Thanks to all who donated. And thanks to Joe Wilson for getting healthcare passed

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 12, 2009 12:10 AM | Report abuse

-------------------
I'm praying that he doesn't survive the anesthesia.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse
-------------------

But according to your explanation today, IF he accepts Jesus as he goes under, it would be better for him to die then rather than survive and live in sin?That's a pretty big IF to leave out of your original post. And STILL a pretty cruel thought.

==

Jake posted a "prayer" that I would die during a scheduled surgery. That ia what he wrote and that was what he meant, and since he is still posting today I guess the gracious host is A-OK with stuff like that.

The dodge into some supernatural BS isn't even a lame excuse, it's just adding insult to injury from a defective human being with nowhere near enough integrity to man up and apologize. "Lord and Savior," that's bag-lady talk.

Oh, by the way, I survived.

For JakeD this was a new low, which none of us would have thought possible. Nice to see he gets zero responses now. Keep it up.

ChrisC, for you to issue these warnings about name-calling and give JakeD a pass on this frankly disgusts me.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 11, 2009 11:51 PM | Report abuse

The Friday's Fix Picks should read "two too many" rather than "two to many"....too connoting excess.

Posted by: jharringbone | September 11, 2009 8:42 PM | Report abuse

I knew that $200,000 sounded really low:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/09/scs_wilson_rakes_in_750000_in.html

I still maintain that Rep. Wilson could have doubled that had he refused to apologize and called a press conference to explain exactly how pResident Obama is lying.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 7:59 PM | Report abuse

Am I really the only one who heard "Joe Wilson" and first thought "Why is Mr. Valerie Plame upset with Obama?"

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 7:44 PM | Report abuse

dylansdad15 is another downwardly mobile, angry Republican who can not believe what happened. Your values and your politics were wrong, sorry.

Now you just have to be poor for awhile.

You liar, you worked your but off for Obama to get elected? What a dope. Fast food? Retail stores? If Obama created welfare for those industries, the people who actually did work to get him elected would be even angrier than you are.

Get a job, loser.

Or go ahead, sell drugs, your political party has prepared a bed for you: in jail.
How about joining "the revolution"?
Have you got a gun? Start wandering around, showing it off and rant about watering the tree of liberty.

You were duped all right, by your Republican masters.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 5:48 PM | Report abuse

imeldamurphy:

The "issue" is that (unlike your PM) our President is not a member of the legislature -- think of it as someone denouncing the Queen as a "liar" during such a speech -- there is an actual rule prohibiting such conduct. Unfortunately, it has been escalating since Democrats BOOED President Bush during a State of the Union address a few years ago, and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) called Bush a "liar" too.

On top of all of that, it is not proven that Obama is even legally President of the United States. I hope, in the meeting next week of House leaders, that they proceed forward with formal admonishment and Rep. Wilson demands to see Obama's LONG FORM birth certificate.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 5:44 PM | Report abuse

Don't know what the fuss is all about. You should watch the House Of Parliament in the UK and DE In Ireland. Pure Theatre

Posted by: imeldamurphy | September 11, 2009 5:35 PM | Report abuse

I should also note how refreshing it is to not have "GoldAndTanzanite" (previously "chrisfox8" who was banned) posting today. I think we really had a great discussion about the extent of federal healthcare and illegal immigration.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 5:34 PM | Report abuse

Fate1:

Too late. I always pray for my enemies (Matthew 5:44).

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Obama was lucky that Joe Wilson's remarks did not come with shoes attached because all the ducking and weaving would not prevent them from hitting their mark. Obama can open his mouth about any of his campaign promises now and the words of Joe Wilson will apply. Many jobless Americans feel they have been duped into becoming welfare recipients. Free money, free health care, free food-stamps that the government deems is enough to feed your family, free utility assistance and if you are a displaced worker over a certain age they ask if you have any illnesses so you can apply for disability. How does that stimulate the economy? I've been through this and more. It is the most humiliating process I have ever been through, but this is what I deserve for working my butt off to get him elected. All I want is a job, to keep a roof over my head and food on the table for me and my daughter. Why aren't these programs creating jobs, instead of spending huge amounts of money that will never make its way to my table. The fast food and retail stores aren't hiring because there is no money and many of them are laying off people. I am financially and emotionally bankrupt. When I start selling drugs there will go my morals.

Posted by: dylansdad15 | September 11, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "Sorry, but since you didn't answer my previously-asked question, even though I had answered all of your questions, I will no longer be answering your questions."

Sorry Jake, I couldn't find the question in question, but its a moot point, I'm logging off for the night and heading to taste a few brews.

But you keep on supporting Wilson, the guy who supports current government run health care systems like Medicare and Tricare while he talks about the evils of a government run health care system. Just don't think about it too much.

Oh, and please, no prayers for me :-)

Last count for the night:
22,055 Supporters
$807,564 Raised
You can continue watching the count here:
http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19079
I highly recommend scrolling down this page to read the stories of those who are contributing. Some are comical, others speak of relatives who died at the hands of private insurance death panels.


Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 4:46 PM | Report abuse

yeswiican:

There's no more important issue than one's own salvation -- whether you think it's "cruel" or not, it's the truth -- another reason I'm not sure about "age of accountability" or telling kids that their dead pets go to Heaven too ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 4:45 PM | Report abuse

The health care industry stimulus package is on rails, no worries about that. Klan posers can't derail it. The only question now is whether it will turn into an Xmas tree.

We don't want to borrow even more money to fund votes from this or that fiscal conservative.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 4:38 PM | Report abuse

Your attempt to wriggle out of what you said is a major FAIL, Jake.

Here is your post in its entirety:

-------------------
I'm praying that he doesn't survive the anesthesia.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse
-------------------

But according to your explanation today, IF he accepts Jesus as he goes under, it would be better for him to die then rather than survive and live in sin?That's a pretty big IF to leave out of your original post. And STILL a pretty cruel thought.

Please go back to praying in secret. You can start with praying for a conscience for yourself.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 4:37 PM | Report abuse

Fate1:

Sorry, but since you didn't answer my previously-asked question, even though I had answered all of your questions, I will no longer be answering your questions.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 4:34 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "Donate to Rep. Joe Wilson here:
https://www.completecampaigns.com/public.asp?name=Wilson&page=2

Thanks for the link Jake. I went to the site and found this:

---JOE WILSON IS PASSIONATE ABOUT STOPPING GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE! Please support Joe's fight by donating today.---

How does that statement square with Wilson's stated commitment to supporting Tricare and the republican commitment to support Medicare? Oh, right, it doesn't, unless we remember the hypocrisy going on here.

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 4:26 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "I told you that I was not the only one who contributed to Rep. Wilson after he called out pResident Obama for lying."

Current count for Wilson's opponent Rob Miller:
21,966 Supporters
$804,591 Raised

I tried to find out what Wilson is raking in as a reward for his rudeness but his website is down. As Jake says its being reported at $200,000 but I'm guessing its only a few supporters, not 10s of thousands.

And this just in, word is that Wilson is not willing to apologize to the House and so there will be a meeting next week of House leaders to consider formal admonishment. More to come on that I'm sure...

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Wilson admitted his breach of decorum, and apologized for it. I respect him for admitting his mistake, at least.

He maintains his position that Obama's statements were not true. And that's his right. Like a lot of politicians, it is all in how you word it.

Illegal immigrants get emergency care now, and some use fraud to get Medicaid, etc. That won't change under the president's plan. But opponents try to make it sound like Obama is extending benefits to illegal immigrants, which he is not.

I say if you want to get tough on immigration, go ahead. Enforce the existing laws. Pass new ones. But don't de-rail health reform over it.


Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Donate to Rep. Joe Wilson here:

https://www.completecampaigns.com/public.asp?name=Wilson&page=2

If you prefer to mail a check the old fashioned way:

Joe Wilson for Congress
P.O. Box 2145
West Columbia, SC 29171

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 4:18 PM | Report abuse

Richard18:

Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV) was an actual member of the KKK. So, we're even?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 4:11 PM | Report abuse

Wilson was a member in good standing of the Sons of the Confederacy, which according to this story is populated with ex-KKK'rs and racists.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-09-11/joe-wilsons-rebel-yell/?cid=hp:mainpromo6

I guess ole 'bubba' Wilson didn't know this.

A sample from the Son's of the Confederacy's newsletter:

• “Previously, anthropologists had routinely recorded the notable differences in IQ among the races; but at Columbia, a liberal cultural anthropologist named Franz Boas…decreed that there were no differences in IQ among the races, and the only biological differences between the blacks and whites were of superficial nature… Meanwhile, the liberals in the media heaped special praise upon black athletes, musicians, singers, and writers—and treated them as typical of the black race. The liberals were creating a false image of the blacks in America as a highly competent people who were being held back by the prejudiced white Southerners.”
—Conner, September/October 2003

Posted by: Richard18 | September 11, 2009 4:05 PM | Report abuse

broadwayjoe:

I told you that I was not the only one who contributed to Rep. Wilson after he called out pResident Obama for lying.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/11/defiant-wilson-raises-more-than-200000-after-outburst/

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

Accordingly, Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., introduced a Senate amendment to allow veterans to continue having the coverage they have had, without raising the cost.
---"We must exempt TRICARE from the 'pay or play' employer mandate and other benefit mandates that would place an additional burden on this program that serves military personnel and their families," Wilson said. "Currently, TRICARE provides world class health care to 9.4 million beneficiaries who currently serve or have served this nation."---

http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090828/NEWS01/908280333/Veterans++Focus

Now, TRICARE is the Department of Defense's health care program for members of the uniformed services, their families and survivors. TRICARE also offers health care programs for retired servicemembers, including TRICARE Pharmacy, TRICARE Dental (United Concordia), and TRICARE for Life.

It is government run health insurance, like Medicare but specifically for the military. Wilson has some family members who use it. One has to wonder why Joe is all for protecting Tricare, and why republicans are now the protecters of Medicare, yet they don't want government run health care.

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 3:59 PM | Report abuse

We'll see.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

I just saw President Obama's speech at the Pentagon..My goodness, what a communicator, he even had crusty Admiral Mullen almost in tears.America made the right choice in 2008.

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 3:45 PM | Report abuse

For the rest of you:

Regardless of age, to quote our gracious host from today's Live Fix:

"(Emoticons rule!)"

; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 3:29 PM | Report abuse

My prediction stands: Rep. Wilson (and Rep. Cao) will be re-elected next year:

http://washingtonindependent.com/58616/poll-most-south-carolina-voters-back-rep-joe-wilson

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

Also quoting our gracious host:

"I think we should all be careful in assuming that the Joe Wilson comments will have a HUGE impact in next year's elections.

There is a tendency in politics (and I play into this at times) that the thing that just happened is the most important and meaningful event in the history of politics.

But, the truth is that the American people have pretty short memories and, given that, I think it's far more likely Wilson fades back into obscurity than he becomes a poster boy for Democrats in 2010 or 2012.

...

While I don't think his outburst will be a major issue in the 2010 election, it clearly has given his Democratic opponent -- Rob Miller -- a huge financial shot in the arm.

The amount of money given to Miller means that [after paying off his $400,000 prior campaign debt - ed.] he will be able to run a professional campaign and perhaps match spending by Wilson in the election.

It doesn't mean, however, that Wilson is going to lose."

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

One day after two ACORN officials in Baltimore were fired for offering to help a man and woman posing as a pimp and prostitute to engage in child prostitution and a series of tax crimes, another secretly shot videotape has surfaced that shows the same couple getting similar advice from ACORN officers in Washington.

Posted by: lucygirl1 | September 11, 2009 3:16 PM | Report abuse

ruraledcomm (last time I will ask):

Did you find that link to ANY enforcement mechanism which would prevent illegal aliens from obtaining healthcare under any bill currently pending?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 3:07 PM | Report abuse

nodebris, that particular saying has kept me in good graces many a time.. times like "do I look fat in this?"

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Oreganstorm said
"Services that should go to our own neediest citizens are being hijacked by people who have no right to be in this country", yes about 46 million citizens currently without such services...

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 2:46 PM | Report abuse

So Rob Miller is qualified purely on the basis of NOT being Joe Wilson? That's the stupidist thing I've ever heard and the very basis of what is wrong with American politics.

As much as it pains me to admit, for a change JakeD has a point. Wilson should, if he believes what he said, defend himself. Else, he has revealed his outburst to be nothing more than a political stunt.

Our "leaders" in the House and Senate should be leaders and debate the issues of the day and make decisions based on what is best for the WHOLE COUNTRY, not their state or CD.

If you want to be nationally recognized for inasne political soundbites, don't go to Congress, go to MSNBC or Fox instead.

Posted by: njacobs | September 11, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

Here's a good one. I tried to post to a Joe Wilson story this morning. Evidently the Post didn't want to post my comment (no others had been posted at the time) I went back to look again later and saw that they had taken the ability to post out of the story. Think I'll post it here instead

If Joe Wilson's outburst accomplishes nothing more than to shine a spotlight (again) on the drain that illegals in this country are causing on our social welfare programs, it will be a fine thing! Services that should go to our own neediest citizens are being hijacked by people who have no right to be in this country..........none! Our public officials make a grand show of "saying" that such services are not granted to illegals but those Americans who go to the county for assistance in my state see it, how many of our citizens do not speak English? Probably damned few but here in Oregon, those in charge of that portion of our tax money that goes to help the needy use the "don't ask, don't tell and nod, nod, wink, wink" approach in order to serve those who have no right to the services they are requesting.

The Supreme Court has said that Hospital Emergency rooms must treat all who present themselves there for EMERGENCY treatment. Fine, but will someone please tell me how often or if any effort is ever made to determine what an emergency is and if people are ever turned away because they are seeking non-emergency treatment. A bad cold or the flu is not an emergency situation!!

Overstated problems with illegals receiving undeserved services? Not so, if anything these problems are UNDERstated. Illegals who actually file taxes with a fraudulent SS number or simply a tax identification number are quite expertly coached on how to report as many dependents as possible (whether they actually exist or not) in order to pay the least taxes and to be eligible for low income supplemental income in the form of return of any tax they might have paid plus a lovely government bonus on top of it.

Keep it up Joe, we need a ten million candle power spotlight on this problem and may it shine from now until the mid-term elections and BEYOND.

Posted by: OregonStorm | September 11, 2009 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Currently Rob Miller's support since Wednesday night:

21,538 Supporters
$788,911 Raised

This is the most important response by the American people to this whole mudfest.

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 2:30 PM | Report abuse

Another variation: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

I am aware of that saying : )

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 2:27 PM | Report abuse

There is a saying "better to remain silent and look wise, than speak and prove otherwise"..

The troll is clearly unfamiliar with that one.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 2:27 PM | Report abuse

But JakeD, Wilson had the speech before it was delivered, as lawyer, being prepared is key..He was wrong on the facts, he violated house rules, and he made himself and party look foolish...As far as providing a strong defense, well, it is obvious he ain't much of a lawyer, not much of a legislature either..No doubt he has his supporters, and his district may re-elected, but, boy, did he put his foot in his mouth,and how!.
There is a saying "better to remain silent and look wise, than speak and prove otherwise"..

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 2:25 PM | Report abuse

TheBabeNemo: Sorry, I should have specifically referred to the Heller ammendment to HR3200 instead of "anti-illegal alien ammendment."

Posted by: Gallenod | September 11, 2009 2:16 PM | Report abuse

ruraledcomm:

I already said that Rep. Wilson would have raised much more cash (and respect from conservatives) had he NOT apologized and provided a strong defense. He could have, at the very least, cited to H.R. 3200 as I just did.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 2:16 PM | Report abuse

Fate1: "if we didn't challenge the narrow mindedness of the arguments people like JakeD give then others might think the arguments are sound"

I'm with you there in general, but the troll will just use your challenges as a pad to launch even more tangential innuendo under the cover of having a "discussion." He isn't really discussing anything with you, just using you for camouflage.

It's really better to let his red herrings rot untouched where he throws them. It's amusing to watch him indict himself, as he always does. Put another way: he's not fooling anyone who isn't already a fool.

Mind you, I enjoy throwing casual disdain, insults, and mockery his way once in a while. Just no respect, as he consistently proves himself unworthy of it.

Matthew 7:6: Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 2:14 PM | Report abuse

ruraledcomm: I'd already come to the conclusion some time ago that Rep. Wilson was rude, in violation of House rules, and lacked any factual basis for his outburst.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 11, 2009 2:13 PM | Report abuse

But, he was wrong, and when pressed by reporters yesterday for details he non details..what kind of logic is that JakeD, I am wrong, therefore I am right..Wow!! I think Wilson is unable to tell the difference between legal immigrants, you know, people with green cards and skills this nation requires who are covered by this bill, and illegal immigrants, who will not be covered by the bill. For a lawyer, that is a shocking oversight, for a legislature, it just looks foolish

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 2:10 PM | Report abuse

Thank you, margaretmeyers

You only forgot to put ironic quotes around the phrase, 'spreading Democracy'.

Incidentally, not that I want in the least to bash the US at any time--and especially not on the Sept. 11 anniversary, but I should like to point out that the world has a number of other examples of 'Democracy', some of which actually predate that of America (viz., Switzerland and France--albeit with a bit of backsliding on the part of the latter).

It might also be instructive to report that in The Economist's 2008 Rankings of Democracy, the US comes in at Nr. 18 (behind Japan and most European countries). So I've always thought it smacks a bit of hubris when America talks about 'spreading Democracy', especially when it's backed up by force of arms.

Posted by: sverigegrabb | September 11, 2009 2:09 PM | Report abuse

"Well, first of all I'm not new here. Second, if we didn't challenge the narrow mindedness of the arguments people like JakeD give then others might think the arguments are sound. For example, he like many conservatives are throwing around the term "government health care" or in his case "government health aid" yet when I asked him what it was I got no response, which tells me he really hasn't a clue as to what he is against."

I didn't say ignore people LIKE JakeD. I just said ignore this one person. No one believes a thing he says anyways. He's just an attention seeker more than anything. He keeps bringing up the same topic of Obama's birth day after day and week after week. It's really tiresome to see this board cluttered up with this little racist's rants and subsequent responses. That's why he posts. Just to derail conversation, not to really try and convince anyone. It would be nice if you helped out by just ignoring him. Just because Chris C finds assassination jokes and blatant racism an asset to the discussion, doesn't mean we need to as well.

Thanks. It would be much appreciated.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 11, 2009 2:08 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "No, he was born in Panama. And, yes, I want SOME way for illegal aliens to be identified re: government-provided healthcare"

Then where were you when the republicans could have put enforcement provisions into many government programs. The republicans railed against illegal immigration yet did little to stop it. Reagan gave them amnesty. Its my opinion that like christianity, republicans play up the anti-immigrant rhetoric to get votes when in reality they really could care less. Their years of power with no action wrt illegals is evidence enough to ignore their screams about illegals now.

JakeD wrote: "I have answered all of your questions honestly, in a civil manner, and I only ask the same courtesy in return -- if you'd rather take DDAWD's advice, that's fine too."

You missed one. What is the "Government Health Aid" you referred to?

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 2:05 PM | Report abuse

P.S. to Fate1: I said that I am referring to ALL government-provided healthcare, most of all Medic-Aid. Did you miss that?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 2:04 PM | Report abuse

hey, it's the 9-11 anniversary.
let's be nice.
or i'll order a training exercise to keep ya busy.


gallenrod:
where is this one -- (the health bill anti-illegal alien ammendment)??

Posted by: TheBabeNemo | September 11, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Back on topic:

I would argue that Rep. Wilson would easily have raised MORE than $1 million had he refused to apologized, called a press conference to lay out the case showing that illegal aliens will get Obamacare, and let the chips fall. If he got censured, make it $2 million.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 2:02 PM | Report abuse

Gallenod,
factcheck.org or just checkfacts.org, whatever floats your boat..There you will find that the undistinguished gentleman from South Carolina was wrong, and POTUS was correct.

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD noted: "Fate1, we kind of have an agreement on here that we don't respond to jaked. You're new here, so you're probably not aware of this. We all know he's a liar and a racist. No need to reward him with attention for this. You mind ignoring him too? His garbage just clutters up the board."

Well, first of all I'm not new here. Second, if we didn't challenge the narrow mindedness of the arguments people like JakeD give then others might think the arguments are sound. For example, he like many conservatives are throwing around the term "government health care" or in his case "government health aid" yet when I asked him what it was I got no response, which tells me he really hasn't a clue as to what he is against.

DDAWD noted: "Besides, he starts praying for people who disagree with him to die. You don't want to end up on that list, do you???"

I really could care less what he does in his prayers. If he does however pray for people who disagree with his views to die I hope he knows the one he prays to might be putting those prayers on His own list.

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 1:58 PM | Report abuse

I'd prefer that you shut the f*ck up instead.

Posted by: njacobs | September 11, 2009 1:57 PM | Report abuse

McCain's birth certificate was found along with the Dead Sea scrolls!!boom,boom,

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 1:57 PM | Report abuse

I prefer factcheck.org. Fewer sensational headlines and more actual facts.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 11, 2009 1:57 PM | Report abuse

njacobs:

Thanks for catching the typo (you try posting as much as I do with perfect grammar ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:56 PM | Report abuse

I wonder where JakeD's birth certificate is...For all we know he isn't born in this country either and is an illegal alien.

BTW, JakeD, it's the American IndependEnt Party. Your speeling errors make you look more ignorant than you already are.

Posted by: njacobs | September 11, 2009 1:51 PM | Report abuse

Fate1:

No, he was born in Panama. And, yes, I want SOME way for illegal aliens to be identified re: government-provided healthcare -- I have answered all of your questions honestly, in a civil manner, and I only ask the same courtesy in return -- if you'd rather take DDAWD's advice, that's fine too.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:50 PM | Report abuse

Gallenod, there is a whole website called checkfacts.org, knock yourself out!!!

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 1:50 PM | Report abuse

I wonder to what horned, evil, red-eyedl Lizard King trolls pray to for the death of others?

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 1:49 PM | Report abuse

Fate1 -- you're intelligent. Don't pollute your mind with this hateful, racist, mentally ill troll.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

I wouldn't be too worried about the efficacy of the troll's prayers.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 1:46 PM | Report abuse

JakeD asked: "Next question?"

Does McCain's birth certificate show he was born in the USA and therefore entitled to run for the office of president?

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Fate1, we kind of have an agreement on here that we don't respond to jaked. You're new here, so you're probably not aware of this. We all know he's a liar and a racist. No need to reward him with attention for this. You mind ignoring him too? His garbage just clutters up the board.

Besides, he starts praying for people who disagree with him to die. You don't want to end up on that list, do you???

Posted by: DDAWD | September 11, 2009 1:44 PM | Report abuse

Legislation may spell out prohibited activies ("no subsidies for undocumented aliena) but does not generally specify enforcement mechanisms. Those are developed by the agencies that implement the policy and may change from administration to administration.

For example: the differences in Clean Air Act enforcement in the Clinton and Bush administrations.

Congress is usually loathe to specify specific enforcement mechanisms because if something changes in the future it then requires another Act of Congress to change enforcement.

In the case of the health bill anti-illegal alien ammendment, Republicans knew in advance it wouldn't pass and likely just offered the ammendment just to try and score political points.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 11, 2009 1:40 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "That's great news, if Rep. Wilson's point has been proven incorrect, I'm sure you can provide a link to ANY enforcement mechanism which would prevent illegal aliens from obtaining healthcare under any bill currently pending?"

Can you provide a link to the enforcement mechanism preventing those under 65 from obtaining Medicare?

Can you provide a link to the enforcement mechanism preventing illegal aliens from obtaining private medical insurance?

Not everything has to have an enforcement mechanism to keep certain people out of a program. And enforcement mechanisms are not free. Obatining a visa has an enforcement mechanism. Do you know how long it can take to get a visa and why it takes so long? Do you want that to happen with health insurance?

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Fate1:

I already have seen McCain's LONG FORM birth certificate, so I did not ask for it again. You are (mistakenly?) assuming that I am pleased with the Republicans for their lax enforcement. I am not a Republican. I am a registered member of the American Independant Party, live in San Diego, and have wanted BOTH parties in Washington to crack down on illegal immigration. Next question?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Gallenod:

Section 246 of H.R. 3200 pays lip service to "affordability credits" for those who cannot, obviously, afford the new government-mandated health insurance (they didn't want to call them "vouchers). On July 16, 2009 an amendment by Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nev.) that would have required use of the SAVE program as an enforcement mechanism preventing illegal aliens from receiving these credits was defeated by the Dems on a straight-party vote.

http://www.cis.org/IllegalsAndHealthCareHR3200

Is that "factual" enough for you?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:37 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "I do not know who else will shout at pResident Obama (he is the one showing disrespect to the Office by refusing to release his LONG FORM birth certificate ; )"

I have to ask ... did you also want to see McCain's birth certificate?

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 1:35 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "I assume that to be such programs as Medic-Aid, and there are laws that pay lip service to no illegal aliens having access. An enforcement mechanism is what the Dems shot down."

My point Jake is that the republicans had many years where they could have shut illegals out of public and private health insurance but did nothing. Why is this such a watershed moment for illegal access to health insurance?

I'm no friend of illegals and want them all to go home. If you don't like the illegal situation then you need to take a closer look at the republicans who champion them being here as cheap labor and did nothing to keep them out of the public or private health insurance markets, yet today they act as theough they are the only people standing against free health care for illegals. Just more lies from the do-nothings.

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 1:30 PM | Report abuse

ruraledcomm:

That's great news, if Rep. Wilson's point has been proven incorrect, I'm sure you can provide a link to ANY enforcement mechanism which would prevent illegal aliens from obtaining healthcare under any bill currently pending?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:29 PM | Report abuse

Americans are not angry and scared to death.

Dwindling numbers of downwardly mobile white people, people who worship Ronald Reagan, The Duke and Charlton Heston and who thought all Americans had to do was act like it and everything would turn out in the end, those are the people who are scared to death.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 1:28 PM | Report abuse

Oh yes, the Yucca Mountain affair.

Reid compared Bush's 2000 campaign promise not to move forward on Yucca Mountain without solid scientific evidence to his later actions trying to advance the nuclear waste dump while there was still debate going on about the science. He concluded Bush was lying back in 2000 and he laid out a case to support the assertion that offered Bush an opportunity to respond.

(Which Bush did by proclaiming that as far as he was concerned, he agreed with the scientists who with him that Yucca Mtn. would be a good thing. Then some Federal courts disagreed with him and we still don't have a single safe place to store nuclear waste.)

However, as someone else already pointed out, Reid apparently didn't break a Senate rule in doing so, otherwise the Republicans who ran the Senate at the time would have tried to censure him.

If Congress passes a health care bill that Obama signs into law that is later proven to have given away new health care benefits to undocumented aliens, *then* you have a factual basis for calling Obama a liar.

Or if you can point to a specific provision in the current legislation (not just the absence of particular language) that would do the same and that Obama intentionally tried to deceive people about it, then you have a factual basis.

Until then, all the opposition is doing is propping up and swinging at straw men. While that may sway some people, over the long term it won't help the oppositions' credibility unless they deal in specifics, like the CBO analyses that show billions added to the deficit under the House plan. They've got some traction there.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 11, 2009 1:27 PM | Report abuse

dee5:

Speaking of "white hoods" is Sen. Byrd too old too?

nodebris:

I thought that "no one" besides myself donated to Rep. Wilson?

Fate1:

I do not know who else will shout at pResident Obama (he is the one showing disrespect to the Office by refusing to release his LONG FORM birth certificate ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:26 PM | Report abuse

facts mean nothing to the GOP, in the world of the GOP facts have nothing to do with anything, even though Wilson's point has been proven incorrect, and that the President was correct, they are still at it..Sheesh..Here are some GOP facts, "Iraq has WDM", "Mission accomplished" "Heck of job, Brownie" "the fundamentals of our economy are strong" and finally "I can see Russia from my house".

With regard to suntan Boehner, the George Hamilton of the GOP, after your scare tactics, the only people who claimed to be scared are those you have been using as tools in attempting to block this bill. The informed and rational people of this nation support this bill.

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

dee and joe --

A convention of clowns, a gathering of nutbags, a plethora of the braindead...

"Wilson skipped a planned appearance at an afternoon rally across from the Capitol by the conservative group FreedomWorks, but he had already gained hero status among the attendees. "We agree with him -- Obama's a liar," said Carole Holland, from Florida, wearing paper ornaments over her ears that said "Obama [bovine excrement] Reflector."

Nearby, LaRouchies displayed a large poster of Obama with a Hitler mustache. Several GOP lawmakers, including Boehner, were on the stage. "Last night, we heard our president address our country," said Eric Cantor (Va.), the House Republican whip. There was a chorus of boos. A woman shouted out, "Liar, liar, pants on fire."

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

I think Wilson will get re-elected. In his district, getting a lot of press for yelling at a black man, and having yankees scold you for it, is political manna.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

JakeD:
"Rep. Wilson is only 62 years old."

Age is a matter of temperament and demeanor not chronology. Wilson, Limbaugh, Palin, Steele, Beck and the other emptyheaded crackpots who provide the intellectual framework of the modern Republican cult certainly qualify as red-faced, bitter old white men no matter what their gender, age, or race.

Although it would certainly make things easier for the rest of us if they would stop being shy about putting on their white hoods when they parade out in public.

Posted by: dee5 | September 11, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

From Washington Monthly:

* The day after President Obama's health care speech, the DNC raised more than $1 million. Not bad, considering that no dedicated fundraising appeal went out yesterday.

* Rob Miller, Rep. Joe Wilson's (R) Democratic opponents in South Carolina, has now raised $750,000 since Wednesday night's outburst.

* At the same time, quite a few right-wing donors are moving to support Wilson. He's raised $200,000 since the controversy broke.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 1:20 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "BTW: he [Wilson] will be re-elected next year:"

Current count: Over 21,000 people have donated over $775,000 to Rob Miller's campaign.

If you think the republicans are not paying attention to that you don't know what makes the gears of politics work. This is spontanious grassroots at work my friend. Which republican will be next to show disrespect to the office of the president?

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Fate1:

I assume that to be such programs as Medic-Aid, and there are laws that pay lip service to no illegal aliens having access. An enforcement mechanism is what the Dems shot down.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:19 PM | Report abuse

Robert Byrd (D-WV) was born on November 20, 1917 (91 years old)

Daniel Inouye (D-HI) was born on September 7, 1924 (85 years old)

Daniel Akaka (D-HI) was born on September 11, 1924 HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Mr. SENATOR! (also 85 years old today ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:15 PM | Report abuse

Go Barack !

Fight the RED-NECK Horde !

Keep up the good work !

Posted by: PulSamsara | September 11, 2009 1:15 PM | Report abuse

Boehner, while disavowing the timing of Wilson's outburst, very much endorsed the sentiment. "Don't underestimate the amount of emotion that people are feeling," he counseled at his news conference. "Americans are frustrated, they're angry, and, most importantly, they're scared to death."

Gee, that wouldn't be because your party has worked so hard to scare them to death, would it?

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 1:14 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote: "Back on topic: Obama WAS lying, and Wilson was correct to say so. On July 30, 2009 an amendment by Rep. Nathan Deal (R-GA) that would have required identity verification for those claiming U.S. birth was defeated by the House Energy and Commerce Committee. Even though 83% of Americans Say Proof of Citizenship Should Be Required to Get Government Health Aid."

Can you tell me what you imagine "Government Health Aid" to be? And currently are there any laws, which the republicans had a majority to pass for 14 years, that prevents illegals from obtaining health insurance from American companies?

Posted by: Fate1 | September 11, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

dee5:

Rep. Wilson is only 62 years old. Is that too "old" for your party too?

BTW: he will be re-elected next year:

http://washingtonindependent.com/58616/poll-most-south-carolina-voters-back-rep-joe-wilson

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:09 PM | Report abuse

Back on topic: Obama WAS lying, and Wilson was correct to say so. On July 30, 2009 an amendment by Rep. Nathan Deal (R-GA) that would have required identity verification for those claiming U.S. birth was defeated by the House Energy and Commerce Committee. Even though 83% of Americans Say Proof of Citizenship Should Be Required to Get Government Health Aid.

http://www.ameripac.org/

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Myself, I ask why Wilson should presume to govern other men when he can't even govern his own tongue.

Well it is because he has taken the cue from the Governor. Turns out you don't have to able to govern any body parts, including your brain, but in South Carolina, you are still fit to govern.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Wilson broke the house rules, the President remains above this sordid thing, Wilson made himself and party look foolish, let him carry on making a fool of himself..In one outburst Wilson proved that there is nothing to a certain section of the GOP, no ideas, no plans, nothing..Now, what someone does outside Congress is between them and their conscience , but, Wilson stood up in Congress abused the President, and it is now quite clear that the President was correct and Wilson was wrong, enough said...

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

We have fortunately entered the "Twilight of the Goons" now that the Republican party has been reduced to an extremist cult of nonsensical screamers. Joe Wilson of South Carolina was only the most obvious and knuckleheaded of the GOP in the well of the House this week: what about Eric (Twitter)Cantor and Lindsey (can I clap) Graham? The party that once boasted Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Robert Taft and Dwight Eisenhower among its luminaries now is reduced to a clown convention. The proudly ignorant and obstructionist rule the clatch.

The picture of red-faced bitter old white men shouting at the first African American president of the United States is the indelible image of the Republican party today. What a shameful collection of know-nothings and bigots they are.

Posted by: dee5 | September 11, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

First of all, that's not on topic. Second, you never asked me to post my full prayer. As commanded, I pray in secret (Matthew 6:5-6). What I did tell you on the other thread -- not to boast or anything else -- was that I prayed specifically he would NOT die until AFTER accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. That's the part you neglected to copy, or purposefully are refusing to acknowledge.

Sometimes, knowing that you are going under the knife or some other traumatic experience prompts a re-evaluation of one's sinful life. I was praying for that. Once that, if it is God's Will, then it would be better for him to die peacefully in his sleep rather than to return here and continue his sinful ways (Matthew 5:29-30; see also Colossian 3:1-17). Let me know if you still need further explanation, or perhaps we could take the off-topic discussion to email?
jaked832@gmail.com

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

bobbywc, you believe "decorum has no place in political speech because it encourages people to hide their true beliefs."

That is only true if you believe it is impossible to phrase your honest beliefs in a civil manner and in an appropriate forum.

Myself, I ask why Wilson should presume to govern other men when he can't even govern his own tongue.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 12:57 PM | Report abuse

JakeD: I am still waiting for the full text of your prayer in which you pray that G&T "doesn't survive the anesthesia" and yet shows that you do not want him dead.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:54 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD I agree, this health reform stimulus bill is The Big Deal, not another angry Republican from South Carolina. A wing nut lower down here advocated revolution, he clearly recognizes the social consequences of universal coverage and hates it enough to want to kill!

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 12:54 PM | Report abuse

See you later, Bobby WC.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 12:54 PM | Report abuse

Plenty of congressmen have been censured, and several have been expelled. Whether any has been censured for violating the rules of decorum I don't know.

What I am saying is that by accepting the office of US Representative, Wilson swore on a Bible that he would follow those rules. He is free not to accept the office. One of those rules is you don't call the President a liar during a session of Congress. Nothing to do with disrupting or public safety.

He could say it anywhere else. Just not there. He promised he wouldn't, and therefore he could be "officially rebuked" for breaking that oath.

If he wanted to, yes he could sue Pelosi and have the Supreme Court decide the issue.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

let's not forget what is law and what is not law, but merely, a pattern of proper behavior.

proper behavior for what? jakey, i'll let you set the scenario.

Doesn't the US Constitution cover the "open forum" setting of Congress? That if the President uses Congress as a forum for a speech (a speech before Congress), open remarks are okay.
He could have done the speech from the Rose Garden or the Press Room.

Posted by: TheBabeNemo | September 11, 2009 12:51 PM | Report abuse

I enjoyed the conversation guys - time to go and get some work done.

Be meaningful and extend the discussions

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:51 PM | Report abuse

yeswiican:

What are you waiting for?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 12:50 PM | Report abuse

Now everyone can see that the party of NO has no ideas, just blind partisanship....what a disgrace this clown from South Carolina is..there is nothing distinguished about him, and if the party of NO think they have anything to gain from this, my, are they nuts!!!

Posted by: ruraledcomm | September 11, 2009 12:48 PM | Report abuse

nodebris, I agree 100% that if you want your speech to be taken seriously it must be presented with decorum in mind - again you are 100% correct - but I remain adament that decorum has no place in political speech because it encourages people to hide their true beliefs.

These are separate issues - if you want to be heard lies and all decorum is your game - but I prefer speech from the heart so I know the true person

Wilson did more for Obama than Obama did for himself, save his professional conduct during the outburst.

Again Joe - Sing Out."

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:47 PM | Report abuse

"I agree with the former and vehemently disagree with the latter. Even if it is useful, I find Wilson's conduct appalling and indefensible. It has nothing to do with what the Constitution *allows* and everything to do with what civility, honor, honesty, and good faith *demand.*"

Am I like the only person who doesn't think this was such a big deal? Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the backlash, but it wasn't all that disruptive. Sure, we expect more from our Congressmen, but have you ever listened to these people talk? Wilson's outburst isn't close to the most immature thing I've heard these people say.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 11, 2009 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Bush WAS lying, and Reid was correct to say so. He did not, however, break a Senate rule to do so.

Still waiting....

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:43 PM | Report abuse

yeswiican, first thanks for the correction on censure - running three blogs right now.

I also ahve a lot of respect for your willingness to keep the discussion focused.

But where did you get this - this is so so wrong. "I'm just trying to get you to understand that the First Amendment does not obviate Article I, Section 5, Clause 2 of the Constitution."

Every act of Congress whether as a law or rule must comport with the Constitution - This goes back to Marbury v. Madison (1803)

Your argument is they can make their own rules - they can also make laws which the Supreme Court seems to have no problem finding to be unconstitutional.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:43 PM | Report abuse

bobbywc, you are conflating two separate arguments: 1) it is politically useful to let Republicans be rude in public forums, and 2) "Decorum has no place in political speech."

I agree with the former and vehemently disagree with the latter. Even if it is useful, I find Wilson's conduct appalling and indefensible. It has nothing to do with what the Constitution *allows* and everything to do with what civility, honor, honesty, and good faith *demand.*

That said, I also believe he should not be censored.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 12:39 PM | Report abuse

And that those rules only apply to the congressmen, and only while they are in session? If a private citizen stood up and yelled, that would be protected speech. But they still could have removed him from the chamber.

Congressmen promise not to break those rules when they are sworn in. If they do, they can be censured (officially rebuked). It's like a letter in your personnel file saying you don't work well with others. Keep it up, and by a 2/3 vote the House can expel you.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:39 PM | Report abuse

Gallenod:

Actually, I am referring to Sen. Reid's use of the word "liar" re: a different topic. He also called the President a "loser" (but did apolgize for that). He apparently did NOT apologize for "liar" -- and boasted about it to Tim Russert -- because he honestly thought that Bush was lying.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0909/Reid_called_Bush_liar_stood_by_comment.html

I think it's fair to say that Rep. Wilson honestly thought that Obama was lying too.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 12:39 PM | Report abuse

You do understand we are not talking about censorship, right?

cen·sure (snshr)
n.
1. An expression of strong disapproval or harsh criticism.
2. An official rebuke, as by a legislature of one of its members

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:34 PM | Report abuse

Bobby WC:

You would agree that "yelling fire!" is appropriate if there is, in fact, a fire in said crowded theatre?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

Bobby, I agree that his outburst was good for the Democrats.

I'm just trying to get you to understand that the First Amendment does not obviate Article I, Section 5, Clause 2 of the Constitution. And that one of the rules is specifically that a congressman is not to call the president a liar. It is that specific.

Them's the rules.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:30 PM | Report abuse

yeswiican, you simply do not get it - just because it is a written rule does not make it constitutional. I am not challenging your argument that the House could have acted. What I am saying is, if they do act - it will give the issue of censor to the Republicans and Wilson will win in court - mere insults are not enough under constitutional standards - they must disrupt - and to President Obama's credit he moved on.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:30 PM | Report abuse

nodebris,

I do not believe you are stupid - I do believe you ignore everything which you do not like.

I never said polite discourse is better or worse - I just want people to speak from the heart so we know who they are.

Again you misconstrue what I have said because you have no response.

I have won a lot of First Amendment cases - I have always said I would have no problem going to court and defending the right of the KKK to march down not straight street and yell profanities at me - why - because I believe good people see the evil in it - again Sing out Joe and hang yourself.

The Dems need to encourage this bad behavior - it will only further alienate the people from the RIght which is Wrong.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:27 PM | Report abuse

True, 9/11 doesn't quite fit the criteria, but Bush's bullhorn moment afterward does. It was a good moment for Bush; seeing it, I actually had hope that he would rise above himself and unite the nation and the world against ignorance and intolerance. Unfortunately, he disappointed me (and a lot of other people).

Jake: What Reid said, in reference to a Bush's apparent support for a Republican move to change cloture rules in the Senate, was that it "appears he was not being honest." It still leaves room for the difference to be an honest change of opinion instead of having been a lie. That's a bit different than an outburst leveling a direct, unsupported accusation in the middle of an address to Congress.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 11, 2009 12:26 PM | Report abuse

You can look up the Rules under House.gov. It states very plainly that no member of congress shall call the President (or Vice President, or Speaker of the House) a liar.

If a congressman breaks that rule, they can be censured. If they continue to break that rule, they can be voted out of the House.

He can't be thrown in jail, unless he says something treasonable. But he can become a suddenly "former" congressman.

See Article I, Section 5:
Clause 2: Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:25 PM | Report abuse

yeswiican,

You seem to only get half of it - I agree 100% with you that Pelosi did not want to make him into a martyr - Rules exist for a reason. Most members understand that make the House more manageable for everyone - this is a good thing.

The rules make for a more orderly process - this is a good thing - but the rules cannot cross the constitution.

Now had Wilson's comments resulted in a complete disruption of Presidnt Obama - then I would have been the first to demand Wilson's expulsion from the chambers .

He hung himself - this is why we protect bad speech and rude speech - it tells us something about the speaker.

he hurt the Republicans - it shocks me that some liberals now want to use the event to give the Republicans the issue that the Dems want to silence dissent. I am glad Pelosi has the good sense to reject such demands.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

"You! You made me spit coffee out my nose onto the keyboard!"

Sorry! It's not my fault he's absurd, though!

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

What, bobbywc, now you're a big fan of polite discourse? What would you say if I yelled out in a public place that your argument is childish? Would that be more appropriate, according to your standards?

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 12:20 PM | Report abuse

I agree that no action should be taken on Wilson. No need to martyr the guy. He looked stupid and his party looked stupid. That works for me. If someone wants to put his foot in his mouth, don't force him to remove it.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 11, 2009 12:18 PM | Report abuse

"My mother and father-in-law got their flu shot at either WalMart or CVS this week.
Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 11:59 AM | Report abuse"

keep us informed if any symptoms show up...

Posted by: DwightCollins | September 11, 2009 12:18 PM | Report abuse

Wouldn't it be a total surprise if, right now, Rush Limbaugh were encouraging conservatives to continue attacking the President? I would certainly want to run to my computer and post that everywhere.

Posted by: nodebris

You! You made me spit coffee out my nose onto the keyboard!

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 12:18 PM | Report abuse

nodebris, rather than tell me where I am wrong - you pull a wilson and insult me.

I said, unless it disrupts - yelling fire would disrupt - you see you have no response so you ignore my plain words and then resort to insults .

sounds Wilsonian to me

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Bobby, I absolutely agree that it is Protected Speech. Again, Wilson broke no laws. He could, however, have been ejected from the chamber by Pelosi if she so chose.

It is also currently against the Rules of the House of Representatives, as it would be in the House of Commons.

What exactly are you advocating? That the House change its rules, or that its members start disregarding those rules? If it is the latter I can guarantee you that there will be censures in future.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Wouldn't it be a total surprise if, right now, Rush Limbaugh were encouraging conservatives to continue attacking the President? I would certainly want to run to my computer and post that everywhere.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse

You CAN yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre too.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse

...they are seeking to unilaterally finish the job of transforming America into a social democracy, a transformation worthy of revolution rather than mere disrespect.

Well there you have it. I agree, America will be well on its way to becoming a social democracy, universal coverage is the vehicle.

Thing is, there is nothing unilateral going on. We voted for this change and we will keep voting for this change. A growing majority of us believe Republican mythology translated into policy has all but destroyed this country.

As for your revolution? Go for it. You and Randy Weaver and Tim McVeigh, just do it, take action, see what happens next.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse

yeswiican,

I do not want to misrepresent your position - are you saying the House can make Rules which violate the constitution? maybe they can make a rule which says - Republican states can have no more than one member in the House - its a rule - the Constitution says they can make rules - must be constitutional

But you remain unwilling to understand the importance of this type speech - they hang themselves.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse

Rush Limbaugh is right now urging that conservatives continue attacking pResident Obama. Just because Rep. Wilson's campaign contributions aren't public yet doesn't mean they won't be soon.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 12:12 PM | Report abuse

bobbywc,

Your grasp of the rules and mores of discourse are about as sophisticated as a three-year old's. I can hardly wait for your argument about how the Constitution protects your right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

Posted by: nodebris | September 11, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse

broadwayjoe, and as the article notes - they get around the prohibited words - it is like same gender marriage - until you decide you are going to arrest grandma for introducing her grandson as married to another man - the discussion is simply stupid.

And as the article points out - this rude conduct does not help the speaker - sound familiar - this is why I support it - first and foremost it is political speech so long as it does not disrupt the proceedings.

Second and from my perspective most importantly it discredits Wilson and his followers.

When you try and define speech in terms of decorum you encourage people to hide their true colors - you then yell "I'm shock to learn the truth."

It is protected speech - and I remain certain - better to let them hang themselves than to give them the issue of claiming the Dems and Obama seek to silent them.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

@d: as we understand it, they are saying her father in law was a commie. Classic 1950s red-baiting smear.

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 12:09 PM | Report abuse

I perfectly well understand free speech.

Do you understand the difference between a rule and a law? Wilson broke no laws. Right in the Constitution it states that the House shall make its own Rules. One of the RULES of the House is that no member of Congress shall call the President of the United States a liar. They can change that themselves with a 2/3 vote.

Pelosi has her own reasons for not censuring him--probably in part because it would make a martyr of him and in part because the Dems have gotten a lot of good from his remark and can be seen as being "above the fray" to some extent.

In any other place, Wilson is free to call Obama a liar.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 12:07 PM | Report abuse

how, joe? they tried with cass sunstein and failed, you will note. He's confirmed.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Ezra Klein's post below should finally put to rest the canard that former Strom Thurmond aide Joe Wilson's red-faced rant would have been just fine in the House of Commons. It is not true any member can just stand up and start yelling as Wilson did:

"Joe Wilson Too Crude Even For The Brits
Lots of people -- myself included -- have been comparing Rep. Joe Wilson's outburst to the chaos that reigns in Britain's House of Commons. But according to Andrew Sullivan, even the House of Commons has some minimum standards of decency.

[O]ne thing you are not allowed to shout in the Commons is that another speaker is a liar. A lot of circumlocutions evolved to bypass this - "terminological inexactitude" is my favorite (Churchill, of course) - but the ban is for a reason. Once the opposition starts yelling "You lie!" they have essentially abandoned the deliberative process, by questioning the good faith of a speaker. Without an assumption of good faith or a factual rebuttal, just calling someone a liar abolishes the integrity of the debating process. It ends a conversation. And parliament is about conversation.
Also off limits are "blackguard, coward, git, guttersnipe, hooligan, rat, swine, stoolpigeon and traitor." "

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/09/joe_wilson_too_crude_even_for.html?wprss=ezra-klein

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

While there is no doubt that Obama was lying with every word he spoke, I would never be so rude as to indulge in such an outburst and find it embarrassing that Wilson indulged himself. Nevertheless, I find myself entirely unwilling to condemn his outburst; because, yes, politics has degenerated to precisely this level and it wasn't Wilson who brought it to this point.

People can bemoan the fact of political degeneracy all they want, but it is an undeniable fact and has been for a very long time. Worse, the degenerate nature of politics fits the divisive politics of the age. Obama and his leftist cohort in congress aren't merely making policy proposals, they are seeking to unilaterally finish the job of transforming America into a social democracy, a transformation worthy of revolution rather than mere disrespect.

Posted by: RUKidding0 | September 11, 2009 11:59 AM | Report abuse

My mother and father-in-law got their flu shot at either WalMart or CVS this week.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 11:59 AM | Report abuse

yeswiican,

you completely fail to understand free speech - where does it say in the First Amendment it has to be intelligent or respectful. And for the record - it has been very effective - for the left - which I support -

Further free speech is not about one event - it is about a concept - whether anyone else has ever yelled out at the president is meaningless - it is either protected speech or it is not - the fact no one may have done it in the past is of zero consequence.

It did not disrupt the proceedings - it was political - it is protected -

Wilson may have supporters for what he did, but it angered the American people - the left wins the right looses - because speech is protected - how sad you seek to silence it on under the bogus guise of decorum.

It was and remains Wilson's lack of decorum which angered the American people -"I hope Wilson sues the House to amend the rules." This is why they are taking no action - the House leadership does not want to be in court seeking to defend rules which silence it members in its chamber when their actions do not disrupt the proceedings. The House would loose. This would hurt the Dems.

"Sing out Joe, sing out." Why you are at it - let's see some skin.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 11:56 AM | Report abuse

The fact that the Republicans looted the country, the fact that the word hypocrisy does not begin to describe their sudden interest in saving Medicare, balancing the budget and so on, none of that changes the fact that we are in a deep financial crisis and so the health care bill is going to have to be paid with more borrowed money, lots more borrowed money.

But I still think this is necessary and that the health care stimulus package will pass. It will be very good for this country, good for my children's future (for a change!!). Eventually, it may morph into real reform.

Universal coverage is the key to a genuine social compact. Reagan understood that and that is why he fought Medicare. Universal coverage will mean the beginning of the end of our creation myth, rugged individualism. Sorry Ayn Rand, sorry Rand Paul, you can go away now.

Get ready though, a lot of things are going to change in how our economy works. I am a little giddy about it. Will Wal Mart collapse? No kidding, they see what I'm seeing and are starting to get into both health insurance and retail health care delivery. Smart move.

I wonder if I could get a job as Medical Director of Wal Mart's Department of Psychiatry?

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 11:52 AM | Report abuse

Of course the Congress can make no Law controlling speech. These are rules made by the body to regulate their own internal debates, so as to have an orderly session. The congressmen agree to follow them when they are sworn in.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 11:49 AM | Report abuse

Now that Van Jones has been thrown overboard, the organized hate community is targeting BHO senior adviser Valerie Jarrett for smearing, according to HuffPo's Jason Linkins.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/10/iworld-net-dailyi-targets_n_282699.html

BHO's rope-a-dope/Jackie Robinson strategy has worked more or less (recently, less), but if they can touch BHO icon Valerie, the bigoted rabble will have penetrated the palace walls. Time to punch back?

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

New-found decorum?? No one has ever yelled out at a president like that during an address to congress. As others have pointed out, he would have been censured in a regular session.

There is no reason you can't disagree or debate a point without interrupting the speaker. Do you really believe town-hall yelling matches are more productive than the normal style of discourse in the chambers of congress?

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

yeswiican broadway joe,

I have heard a lot worse coming from the House of Commons than calling the PM a liar -

So I want to understand the argument here - once a rule is made it is forever constitutional - I hope you liberals remember that when the Republicans take power again and seek to silence us.

Congress can make no law which controls speech - period - The House can pass rules which prohibit disrupting the sessions - "disrupting" is the key word - President Obama did not miss a note - no disruption - god save this nation if this new found decorum you people seek to impose on polical speech becomes the new standard.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 11:40 AM | Report abuse

The nutbags have an entire alternate universe of fake, warped and distorted rightwing 'news' that's as big as the MSM --the NBM, or NutBag Media.

They don't even have to bother with the real world at all.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

"The truth is there are no provisions that will end the free healthcare that is given to the illegal aliens because healthcare cannot be denied to them as a human right."

Well, technically, Obama said that illegals wouldn't be insured, not that they wouldn't receive any healthcare whatsoever.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 11, 2009 11:34 AM | Report abuse

That's your opinion, Bobby. And I agree that the more they shout, the more they expose their stupidity.

But the House does have rules, and Wilson did not follow them. He won't be censured, but there's nothing wrong with donating to his opponent.

He was an invisible back-bencher until Wednesday, and now for a while he will be able to get a microphone whenever he wants it. A press conference or interview is the proper place for him to dissent, not during the president's speech.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 11:34 AM | Report abuse

Parliamentarians say that Wilson's statement would have been out of order in the House of Commons as well so your argument doesn't fly. Wilson forgot where he was: he thought he was at a "Town Hall" meeting. There was no Rosa Parks sign to tear up so he decided on the next best thing--to yell at that "uppity" _______at the podium at the dais.

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Hmm I wonder if John McCain would have gotten the same disrespect if he had of presented this healthcare reform if he had of been elected....hmmm

Probally not... HEALTHCARE reform was not on his agenda!!!

Posted by: ENuffSaid1 | September 11, 2009 11:31 AM | Report abuse

A new tracking poll...

FAVORABLE UNFAVORABLE NET CHANGE
PRESIDENT OBAMA 56 (52) 39 (43) +8
PELOSI: 33 (32) 59 (59) +1
REID: 30 (31) 59 (58) -2
McCONNELL: 18 (19) 64 (63) -2
BOEHNER: 14 (15) 62 (63) 0
CONGRESSIONAL DEMS: 38 (39) 57 (56) -2
CONGRESSIONAL GOPS: 17 (18) 70 (69) -2
DEMOCRATIC PARTY: 40 (39) 51 (52) +2
REPUBLICAN PARTY: 22 (23) 68 (69) 0

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 11:29 AM | Report abuse

In the imortal words of Mama Rose "sing out Louise." Sing out Joe - sing loud as if your life depends on it - Joe and all the members of Reputrican talk radio need to form a mens choir and sing out and sing out loud - it will be the death of the Republican Party -

Decorum has no place in political speech

Bobby Wightman-Cervantes

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Another mess that I will always remember is watching the election results on election eve 2000.

Dan Rather had just announced Al Gore just won Florida....

Rather stated:
"Now, remember, Florida is the state where Jeb Bush, the brother of George Bush, is the governor, and you can bet that Governor Bush will be madder than a rained-on rooster that his brother, the governor, wasn't able to carry this state for him."
--Election Night, November 7, 2000

Not nearly 10 minutes later they show a flash of the Bush family leaving the Austin Hotel where they had been watching the election coverage to return to the governor's mansion.

1 Hour later Dan Rather and other local channels came back and said it was a mistake...Al Gore has not won FL...that state is still in play an still up for grabs...it's too close to call.

I guess Rather was right...Jeb had to steal the state back in order to ensure his brother the win...

Posted by: ENuffSaid1 | September 11, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

"The truth is there is no truth behind what these nutbags are saying -- and they should be mocked, because they're cultists."

Did you watch the coverage on FOX News of these things? It certainly wasn't mocking. Not sure how anyone can say the main stream media mocked these guys. The MSM advertised these gatherings, sent people out there to even host them, and just spoke of them admiringly.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 11, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Here''s another rude jerk:

"Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) of "You Lie!" fame wasn't the only GOPer to show President Obama something less than complete respect during last night's speech on health care before a joint session of Congress.

The Swamp reports that a few minutes before Obama's speech ended last night, Rep. John Shimkus (R-IL) stood up and walked out."

Just another Gutless Old Panderer.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 11:27 AM | Report abuse

""You forgot to mention the part where I wrote that when they do report on it, it is reported with mocking (ie calling people crazy tea baggers and birthers etc., rather than looking into what is being said and reporting the truth)."

The truth is there is no truth behind what these nutbags are saying -- and they should be mocked, because they're cultists.

Pretending that they have a valid viewpoint doesn't make it happen."

The truth is there are no provisions that will end the free healthcare that is given to the illegal aliens because healthcare cannot be denied to them as a human right. If there were provisions made, they would be shot down as unconstitutional, which is why not even the republicans are really attempting to make them. The truth is the president stood up there and called people liars first. He was called out for being a liar as well. That's not crazy or cultist. What is crazy and cultist is how blindly the president is being followed. I have the utmost respect for the office and even for the man, but when he is wrong, he is wrong.

Posted by: LuthienKennedy | September 11, 2009 11:26 AM | Report abuse

broadwayjoe, if you cannot dissent to the president's face in the People's House - then dissent has no meaning. I find the view that dissent ends at the door of self contrived decorum boorish.

I have no fear of Joe Wilson or his kind - speak up and speak louder - it will only serve to galvanize the left -

again if we cannot dissent in the people's house to the president's face then it is time we declare free speech dead.

the Supreme Court has made clear over and over again - speech need not be artful - it only need be political.

The House of COmmons is my kind of place -

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 11:22 AM | Report abuse

"You forgot to mention the part where I wrote that when they do report on it, it is reported with mocking (ie calling people crazy tea baggers and birthers etc., rather than looking into what is being said and reporting the truth)."

The truth is there is no truth behind what these nutbags are saying -- and they should be mocked, because they're cultists.

Pretending that they have a valid viewpoint doesn't make it happen.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Joked, who attempts a veneer of civility -- "Mr. Cilizza" "Rep. Cao." etc -- cannot help but show his true colors when he expresses slavering support for rude, low-class trash like Wilson and Palin.

Posted by: koolkat_1960 | September 11, 2009 11:15 AM | Report abuse

""Much of the news these days fails to cover the opinions of those who do not agree with the president, "

Jeezus -- talk about an alternate universe. That's ALL we hear from these days on the news is crazy teabaggers and tenthers and birchers who not only disagree with but hate the president.

Sorry bud. The Constiution guarantees the right to free speech, not the right to be rude,or to sh(t in public,"


You forgot to mention the part where I wrote that when they do report on it, it is reported with mocking (ie calling people crazy tea baggers and birthers etc., rather than looking into what is being said and reporting the truth).

Thank you for making my point.

Posted by: LuthienKennedy | September 11, 2009 11:15 AM | Report abuse

the healthcare bill truly does have good things in it...i like the scholarship program for public health training.

stay on the page. who cares about wilson. Next we will hear from limbaugh or steele. same old rhetoric and it is now enhanced rhetoric because President Obama is who he is.

also, repulsives are going to push "the budget passing" issue now. October 15, the government will shut down, if the budget doesn't get passed. The world will end.

start christmas shopping now.

Posted by: TheBabeNemo | September 11, 2009 11:13 AM | Report abuse

If Joe Wilson has raised any money at all, he's not talking about it and there seems to be no publiic record of it.

Lies, as usual. Yawn.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

drindl:

So What if Rep. Wilson got more than $1 million in those same 24 hours? We only have 1/2 of the story here.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 11:01 AM
_________
But he didn't.

@cervantes:

What makes the rant of former Strom Thurmond aide, Mr. Wilson, special (in a negative way) is that it was unprecedented in modern Congressional history, and, had it occurred during a regular session of the House, would have drawn a formal reprimand.

"Critical body language and murmurs of disapproval are typical at presidential addresses and part of the political theater. But members of both parties were trying to recollect such a pointed attack from an individual lawmaker at a presidential address and noted that a similar remark could draw a formal reprimand if delivered at a routine session of the House."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/us/politics/11Wilson.html

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse


Joe Wilson was rude. He broke the house rules. He apologized, but still disagrees with the president.

If that caused Americans to donate $750K to his opponent, fine. That's exercising their rights along with voicing their opinion of the matter.

At least he wasn't praying for anyone to not "survive the anesthesia". Still waiting for that prayer, Jake. Or the apology, whichever one you have the cojones to post. I'm guessing neither.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Exactly, Margaret.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

ddawd:
reverse psychology: jakey showing up on the Fix with something to actually say

Posted by: TheBabeNemo | September 11, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

sverigegrabb speaks the truth.

The budget deficit talk comes up whenever the GOP doesn't like the social agenda. When their ideas -- wars, spreading Democracy, tax cuts for the wealthy, perscription programs for the elderly -- add oceans of debt to the budget, hey, theiy're fine with that. The GOP is fine with the medical industrial complex continuing to yank as much money out of the insured for as little service as possible. For some reason this all works for the GOP. I suppose because it works for their corporate masters.

Posted by: margaretmeyers | September 11, 2009 11:04 AM | Report abuse

drindl:

So What if Rep. Wilson got more than $1 million in those same 24 hours? We only have 1/2 of the story here.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 11:01 AM | Report abuse

"Much of the news these days fails to cover the opinions of those who do not agree with the president, "

Jeezus -- talk about an alternate universe. That's ALL we hear from these days on the news is crazy teabaggers and tenthers and birchers who not only disagree with but hate the president.

Sorry bud. The Constiution guarantees the right to free speech, not the right to be rude,or to sh(t in public,

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 10:58 AM | Report abuse

gallenrod:
..."It turned George W. Bush from a guy who almost choked to death on a pretzel into a "wartime president" and reshaped the American politial landscape..."

it was a chip i believe.
Baby Bush's wartime moment was his "bullhorn" moment. It was fleeting.
Then his proclamation to "live your normal life". Spend money, etc.
How was your Christmas of 2001?

How did he reshape the American political landscape? By war and spreading us too thin? Not expecting the "war on terra" to be a different "covert-type" war? No divide and conquer; no front line. Can't outfit the troops for one-on-one combat.

We are paying for it big time now. On the homefront. President Obama's speaks volumes when he still says that he inherited a mess. People don't like it when he reverts back to that bottom line statement, but man alive, it is so true.

Posted by: TheBabeNemo | September 11, 2009 10:58 AM | Report abuse

Gallenod:

Harry Reid called GWB "a liar" and refused to apologize.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 10:57 AM | Report abuse

The million dollar outbust..

Well, $750,000.

That's how much Joe Wilson's Democratic challenger Rob Miller has raised since Tuesday night, according to DCCC spokeswoman Jessica Santillo.

and I bet it goes to a million. This is Democrats responding to all the abuse heaped on our president by a bunch of jeering, radical rightwingers. we've had enough.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 10:55 AM | Report abuse

Wilson says "I Will Not Be Muzzled". Awesome.

keep it up Joe, drive the remnants of the republican party even further to the extreme right. Keep screaming "Lies, Communist, Muslim, Socialism". The only ones who will pay any attention are the true loons of the "Christian" right wing birther movement.

You can't over turn an election by shouting and marching around with guns on one shoulder and a cross on the other.

Keep it up.

Posted by: thebobbob | September 11, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

I think what CC is going for here is "unplanned or unchoreographed" political moments. As important as 9/11 obviously was to Bush's presidency, that wasn't the "political moment." Bush's megaphone speech after 9/11 was perhaps that moment, somewhat unscripted--especially compared to the "Mission Accomplished" speech.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 11, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Interesting how many candidates have died in small plane crashes just days before a hotly contested election, isn't it? Anyone have a tally?

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 10:47 AM | Report abuse

I would like to point out that there are laws in place to insure that any person in the United States, whether they are a citizen of this nation or not and whether they are insured or not, will be treated at our nation's hospitals without prejudice of any kind and without any guarantee that they will ever pay. This is a problem with our medical system that many people would like to see addressed because it does contribute to greater costs overall, not only because many illegal aliens never pay for the care they receive (that expense gets passed on to everyone who is a paying customer, including the government) but also because it keeps our emergency rooms clogged, thereby inhibiting care for those who are there for true emergencies. Illegal aliens will continue to be treated in our emergency rooms just as they are today, no matter what form healthcare takes, because they are granted this human right under our laws. This is a known problem and an obviously tender subject. Unless provisions are made to expressly prohibit this abuse of our healthcare system, it could be argued that any bill put forth is promoting the continued abuse and therefore would be "reforming the system" with the express intent of covering the cost of this humanely granted care by mere exclusion of any means of otherwise providing this care.

On an aside, I am grateful that I live in a nation where our elected officials may call each other liars when they feel a lie has been told. Our president was given a platform that most people, including our congressmen, never receive (and just moments before he was called a liar, he was calling people liars). Much of the news these days fails to cover the opinions of those who do not agree with the president, and when it does get coverage, it is often done so with mocking, which is a shame. What keeps us equal (not what keeps life fair, but what keeps us equal) in this nation is our freedom of speech. If the congressman is disciplined in any manner for utilizing his freedom of speech, especially when he is an elected official meant to represent thousands of people and to be the voice of those people in the office that he holds and in the capacity in which he sat that night and felt compelled toward outburst, I will consider it an awful day in our nation. As should everyone.

Posted by: LuthienKennedy | September 11, 2009 10:46 AM | Report abuse

What about Bill Clinton's comments about the South Carolina primary last year? That seemed to herald the beginning of the end for her.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 11, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

I am truly bothered by those who seek to punish Wilson for speaking his mind. If you cannot dissent during a presidential speech then it is fair to say meaningful dissent is dead.

While I think CC is pretty much on board with the benefits side of speech, it is not clear to me the left is. Wilson and the post speech response by the Republicans proved they have no interest in meaningful discussion or reform.

When you allow people to speak their mistaken minds it tends to hurt them. I have always said "if you are confident in your position pay your opposition to speak if need be, because they will fall flat on their face."

I think the American people are growing tired of the endless vitriolics by the Republicans. Some will cross over to Obama because they see the writing on the wall.

Speech is good - it informs us of who our opponents really are.

Bobby Wightman-Cervantes

Posted by: bobbywc | September 11, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Two examples of bolt out of the blue political game changers come to me from my home state, Missouri. Congressman Jerry Litton and his family died in a plane crash in 1976 after winning the Democratic primary in the state. John Danforth went on to win the general election.

And who could forget that John Ashcroft was defeated for his senate run in 2000 by a dead man. Mel Carnahan died in a plane crash two weeks before the general election and, though dead and buried, beat Ashcroft, unseating a reliably conservative senator.

Posted by: Ticdoulouroux1 | September 11, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Someone at Politico finally gets it:

'Joe Wilson’s outburst Wednesday night earned more than a personal rebuke from the president and a dagger-eyed gasp from the speaker of the House; it drew winces from Republicans worried that their party is becoming known less for the power of its ideals and more for the pettiness of its vitriol.

“Neither party has an exclusive on wack jobs,” says Republican media consultant Mark McKinnon. “Unfortunately, right now the Democrats generally get defined by President Obama, and Republicans, who have no clear leadership, get defined by crackpots — and then they begin to define the Republican Party in the mind of the general public.”

Turn on the TV, and you see what he means.

Here’s Orly Taitz, insisting that the commander in chief was born in Kenya. There’s a flock of town hall protesters, waving photos of the president in a Hitler mustache. Former GOP vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin warns darkly that Obama is planning “death panels” for senior citizens. Georgia Rep. Paul Broun equates the president’s plans with “Nazi” policies. Ohio Rep. Jean Schmidt — last heard calling John Murtha a “coward” — tells a birther: “I agree with you, but the courts don’t.”

and this is written by a republican.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 10:43 AM | Report abuse

There was a big turning point when President Johnson was starting to campaign for re-election in 1968. During an unpopular war (polls showed most wanted out) it was still assumed by the establishment that he would win re-election easily. However, during his first campaign appearances he got heckled at almost every stop. Shortly thereafter he backed out, big surprise to many.

Posted by: bwcolq | September 11, 2009 10:39 AM | Report abuse

molsonmich -- I'd forgotten Jesse Jackson's "Hymietown." He was already declining but that put an end to his prospects.

Posted by: margaretmeyers | September 11, 2009 10:38 AM | Report abuse

"Actually, I don't even know what reverse psychology is, I have a hard enough time knowing regular psychology."

It's when those of us who aren't you try to be like you. Consider it flattery.

Day of service today. Do something nice.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 11, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

let's have a training exercise.

Posted by: TheBabeNemo | September 11, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

Chris,

That's a great article on T-Paw. Except for his obligatory free-market approach on health care, he has some great ideas. So great, in fact, that about 70 percent of them are already incorporated in one or another of the Committee bills which will go into President Obama's health care reform.

Posted by: sverigegrabb | September 11, 2009 10:30 AM | Report abuse

Chris you forgot about the best one . Macaca . The statement doomed George Allan and possibly affected the republican presidential primary .

Posted by: brokenglassdemocrat | September 11, 2009 10:26 AM | Report abuse

@d: Seems like what we were seeing here everybody was seeing, including CJR.

There's still time to correct things though. Moratorium on Palin-in-2012 and GOP-comeback posts would be a good start. And, IMO, today's post hints at a move in the right, er, correct direction. :)

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Thank you, shrink2 for speaking the truth! Joe Wilson couldn't call you a liar! (Actually, he's such a nutter that he doesn't need cause)

Although I don't approve of the massive deficit, why has the latent deficit hawk in so many in Congress and the public been awakened just on this issue alone?

Just look at the dazzling sums of money spent by GWB on illusory tax cuts for the richest Americans and on even more illusory wars. Why wasn't Congress reluctant to spend then?

Health care IS expensive, but the alternative is worse. Without reform, the US will shrink into a second rate power. Can't the US finally do what all other industrialised countries have been able to do for 50 years? Of course it CAN, but WILL IT?

Posted by: sverigegrabb | September 11, 2009 10:13 AM | Report abuse

There is a substantive difference between booing, which expresses a difference of opinion, with an accusation of lying, which questions the honor of the target.

One of the more entertaining political spectacles in the world is the weekly "prime minister's question time" in the British Parliament, where the opposition routinely heckles the PM in direct questioning and the majority heckles right back. It is, for all intents and purposes, a verbal bar room brawl. But while individual positions may be greeting with shouts of "rubbish!" or "nonsense!" they don't call each other liars. They attack the ideas, not the man.

And the biggest unplanned moment in recent history for American politics was 9/11. It turned George W. Bush from a guy who almost choked to death on a pretzel into a "wartime president" and reshaped the American politial landscape.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 11, 2009 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Prominent DailyKos blogger "ministryoftruth" will be on Air America Radio tonight between 11 and midnight. If you're interested, check link below for stations carrying AA.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/9/11/780266/-Ill-be-on-Air-America-radio-tonight,-wish-me-good-luck-and-thank-you-to-all

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 10:11 AM | Report abuse

"The current Columbia Journalism Review reports Drudge's losing visitors, HuffPo is gaining, and calls out Fix as a Drudge "heir."

Ouch. That is cruel. To be compared to a gutter gossip, the online equivalent of supermarket checkstand tabloids -- a blow to anyone who finished high school, let alone journalism school.

Wall Street Journal sadi the same thing this week -- Drudge's influence is dying.. He is so -- yesterday's news, so nowhere man.

Posted by: drindl | September 11, 2009 10:09 AM | Report abuse

I vote for Howard Dean's "I Have a Scream" speech. YEAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 10:01 AM | Report abuse

Actually, I don't even know what reverse psychology is, I have a hard enough time knowing regular psychology.

While it is true health costs everywhere are rising, nowhere are they rising like they are here. This is because our health care business model is so inefficient, not because we are aging faster than others.

This plan does nothing to drive efficiency, it inflates all of the current systems with more money, that is all it does. Trust me, it has the full support of the medical industrial complex, so there are no losers on the existing game field. Everyone is a winner.

But again, I don't care. Whether or not we could achieve the same goals with a lot less money is moot, not gonna happen.

Either way, this is a radical shift in America's economic development. We already pretty much abandoned manufacturing and services of all kind are too easily globalized for America to compete (China is way ahead in green revolution investment, for example) so we are shifting our economic priority to health care. Obama should should come out and say so. It is not a bad thing.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 9:59 AM | Report abuse

One of the most stunning political foofaws in the recent past was the Howard Dean yell, an enthusiastic shout of victory that was shown on TV so many times that the public began to perceive Dr. Dean as a madman. That was most definitely the turning point in his campaign, and the Democrats lost an excellent candidate.

Posted by: txmarjie | September 11, 2009 9:44 AM | Report abuse

Wilson's outburst was hardly heard.....what a wimp!!!

besides, at the speech, everyone was too busy deciding whether to stand and applause at every topic mentioned (of pause for laughter).....

it was definitely a "rousing" speech, but one must read the bill to see the "crust" of the issue.

Posted by: TheBabeNemo | September 11, 2009 9:44 AM | Report abuse

Is that supposed to be some sort of "reverse psychology," shrink2?

Health care spending is large and getting larger, with or without the president's plan. Whether it adds significantly to the total is really undetermined, but yes if more people live longer then the overall cost will go up.

The shift you refer to has been occurring for years and has more to do with new technology and aging boomers than anything else.

I agree with you that it is better to spend it saving Americans than killing Iraqis.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 9:43 AM | Report abuse

It is true no one died when Clinton lied.
Sending up the lies and the consequences of the lies of Republican Presidents is just too much work, there are books on that.

But this is ridiculous!

If you want to start consumers spending again instead of saving then say so. We are going to be forced to spend on health care.
This is fine with me.

It will create jobs, stimulate the economy and in the long run, it will be much better for America than telling people to go shopping.

But why lie? Most people know health care is really expensive and there are about to be a whole lot of people gaining access.
Fact: a lot more money is about to be spent on health care. There is no way to spend billions of dollars that come from nowhere.
We either borrow it (deficit) or we take it out of our wallets (taxes).

Ultimately, it is a good thing. We won't buy as much consumer junk and won't waste so much money on gas - because we are going to spend it on health care for everybody.
I like the idea, but it is an astonishing, radical change of course for this society and no one seems to get that.

Nothing to do with socialism v capitalism, it is just a major shift in production and spending priorities. I know health care will be 30% of our gdp in a little while, but will it go higher? What would stop it?

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 9:35 AM | Report abuse

Sorry that should have been Wilson not Jones.

Posted by: sltiowa | September 11, 2009 9:16 AM | Report abuse

You didn't post one. Go ahead, if you think it will help.

PS I am not mikeinmidland.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 9:16 AM | Report abuse

It is laughable to think that Jones has changed health care reform debate. All his unfortunate, ill timed, and disrespectful comment did was energize the left wing of the party…hardly what I call a game changer. The game changer will be if Obama can present a plan that covers everyone and be deficit neutral. As many columnist both conservative and moderates have pointed out there are no details in Obama’s proposal that would save the money for reinvestment in health care. Saying we will weed out waste when he has yet to eliminate any substantial waste during his administration is a far stretch in logic.

Sorry he did have his cabinet save $100 million one day only to sign omnibus spending bill later that was 8% higher than what congress proposed during Bush II last budget and this bill went well over 400 billion. What was Obama’s response to the outcries of increased budget deficits…that’s old news from last year’s budget. Please Obama is just like Bush II in terms of his fiscal irresponsibility. What did we get in the last election another four more years of fiscal ineptitude. Only know we have a smart guy doing it rather than a smart alec.

Posted by: sltiowa | September 11, 2009 9:15 AM | Report abuse

Hi "yeswiican" / mikeinmidland:

You didn't quote my whole prayer.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 9:13 AM | Report abuse

Nixon's 5 o'clock shadow, during the (first-ever) televised presidential debate; an episode which added "telegenic" to the must-have for politicians

Jimmy Carer and the "killer rabbit"; which just re-affirmed the widely held belief that he was wimpy.

Michael Dukakis in the tank, with the Flinstone's Kazoo helmet on his head.

Bill Clinton on MTV (what kind of underwear...) and Arsenio (saxaphone); maybe calculated, but Clinton showed how you could by-pass the Washington Press Corp and used info-tainment to one's advantage.

Dick Cheney peppers his hunting buddies face with birdshot: reaffirmed a popular perception, of the left's anyway, that Cheney is/was hair-triggered and reckless.

Larry Craig's wide stance.

Jesse Jackson's "hymietown"

Reagan's soundcheck "My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia. We begin bombing in five minutes,"

Posted by: molsonmich | September 11, 2009 9:12 AM | Report abuse

Is that Rep. Campbell (R-CA) on Wilson's right? Who is seated to his left?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 9:09 AM | Report abuse

JakeD is apparently unable to tell truth from lies or even admit to contradicting himself. Therefore his opinion on Joe Wilson's veracity is irrelevant.

In reference to GoldandTanzanite's surgery TODAY, JakeD posted that

[JakeD is] praying that he doesn't survive the anesthesia.

JakeD doesn't pray for what you don't want.

JakeD doesn't want him to die.
---------
If you can square those three statements, go for it. But it doesn't change the fact that the first post was extremely insulting and you should apologize for it.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 10, 2009 9:10 PM | Report abuse

LOL!!! If I made any mistake, I would gladly admit it.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 9:07 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: yeswiican | September 11, 2009 9:09 AM | Report abuse

The current Columbia Journalism Review reports Drudge's losing visitors, HuffPo is gaining, and calls out Fix as a Drudge "heir." That's what CJR's sayin'. Maybe Drudge-lite's not the best business model in 2009? Developing...
___________

"The Columbia Journalism Review features an interesting piece on Matt Drudge, and the apparent declining fortunes of the Drudge Report now that Republicans do not control the White House.

Drudge is in part a victim of his own success. He spawned imitators and emulators, who in turn have only further splintered the media world. If there is an agenda to be set, no one outlet or editor has the power to set it. It’s simply too rapid and unknowable a thing to harness. While The Fix, put together by Chris Cillizza of The Washington Post, and Playbook, put together by Politico’s Mike Allen, are often referred to as Drudge’s heirs, neither has the influence that Drudge once had, nor do they display the kind of naked ideological bias that was Drudge’s hallmark. Of course, their existence is a testament to Drudge’s legacy as a trailblazer in the field of Internet newsgathering and gossip mongering. But increasingly, a legacy is all the Drudge Report has to offer.

The article also notes the opposite being true for the Huffington Post, which has a healthier ongoing dose of visitors."

http://www.examiner.com/x-23185-Seminole-County-Democrat-Examiner~y2009m9d10-Drudge-Report-loses-traffic-unlike-the-Huffington-Post

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 9:07 AM | Report abuse

randy1932:

you are aware that GWB was booed by the Dems at the State of the Union, right?

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 9:05 AM | Report abuse

Even "shrink2" knows that Obama lied.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 9:01 AM | Report abuse

I can't believe that a member of congress would stoop so low as to yell at the President and call him a liar while he is addressing the congress. This is below low. My advise to you, Joe: Get the hell out; quit and go and hide in a cave where you belong.

Posted by: randy1932 | September 11, 2009 9:00 AM | Report abuse

How is Maccaca not on this list? That was a train wreck that is easily above Muskie's tears.

Posted by: AndyR3 | September 11, 2009 8:57 AM | Report abuse

Victory for common sense and civility: BHO approval at 56 (up 4 from before the Speech)(DailyKos, 9/11/09). Obamacare approval at 66% (CNN).

Posted by: broadwayjoe | September 11, 2009 8:51 AM | Report abuse

Silly season alert.

Now we are going to force feed the health industry without raising taxes and without adding one dime to the deficit.

Here, for example, is the Senate Finance member and post Teddy health care reform icon Ron Wyden (D OR) from TPM today...

"But Wyden was perhaps most critical of the financing scheme--enshrined in the Baucus plan, and endorsed by Obama--to raise the funds needed to pay for the bill by taxing high-end private insurance plans. That measure sells politically--who doesn't like the idea of taxing insurance companies?--but the incidence of the tax is likely to befall insurance consumers, including middle class Americans who Obama vowed not to increase taxes on.

"This financing system is not my first choice," Wyden said. "We're going to be working in the finance committee to address the concerns you describe."

Heh, heh, this ought to be good.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 8:50 AM | Report abuse

bloodwor003:

Maybe it's because Rep. Wilson is right, but simply told the truth in a politically incorrect way? I donated to his campaign, and I'm not the only one.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 8:43 AM | Report abuse

You left out David Broder's acknowledgement for the Muskie "tear" story.

Posted by: edlharris | September 11, 2009 8:39 AM | Report abuse

Joe Wilson passed healthcare. Dems were divided but now have the cover to back Obama's plan. The Town Hall bullying was exposed for what it is--mean-spirited, childish, and counter-productive. I cannot believe Republicans have not totally distanced themselves from this guy. Force him to resign and move on.

Posted by: bloodwor003 | September 11, 2009 8:33 AM | Report abuse

SeniorMoment:

What are you talking about? The bills on the table contain NO enforcement mechanism to prevent illegal aliens from claiming premium subsidies -- in fact, a proposed amendment to H.R. 3200 with that enforcement mechanism was voted down by the Dems on a straight party-line vote -- are you claiming that the amendment WILL be approved now? I didn't think so.

Posted by: JakeD | September 11, 2009 8:24 AM | Report abuse

The unexpected event that had the biggest impact on a major policy issue was, of course, the murder of John F. Kennedy. Lyndon Johnson, a master legislator and possessor of myriad Congressional secrets, channeled the nation's shock and dismay into the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the most socially significant legislation since the enactment of the amendment giving women the vote.

Posted by: jhpurdy | September 11, 2009 8:09 AM | Report abuse

I believe Republicans like Joe Wilson want to raise the red herring of health care for illegal immigrants so that they can undermine employee benefits in general. The bills on the table do not allow any premium subsidy for illegal immigrants but employers would still have to pay half of their health insurance cost, just like they pay for any other employee benefit.

If employers are given the choice of hiring an illegal immigrant and escaping paying half of the employee's health insurance premium, they will avoid hiring legal immigrants and American citizens and risk INS raids and fines left and right. The reality is INS can only catch a fraction of each year's new illegal immigrants, so with those kind of savings it is a good economic decision to avoid hiring citizens.

Only US citizens and legal immigrants get any assistance with their half of the health insurance premium under any health bill being actively considered.

Do you want to be displaced from your job by an illegal immigrant who is not only cheaper to hire from a willingness to work for less, but would not cost the employer half the health insurance premium, saving as much as $800 per month more per illegal hire? If you do, save up for long term unemployment and agree with Representative Joe Wilson.

Posted by: SeniorMoment | September 11, 2009 7:45 AM | Report abuse

Reagan=Star Wars.
Remember Star Wars?
He was demented.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 11, 2009 7:44 AM | Report abuse

I had thought well of Muskie and my opinion did not change when he supposedly teared up. Then McGovern became the front runner and while he had been a decorated bomber pilot in WW2 he was cast as "weak". I am a personal witness to how poorly run the McG campaign was and always believed Muskie would have fared better. Of course, I probably would have fared better and I was only 29 and barred from running at the time.

My point is that "macho" seems to play better for male candidates than "sensitive", and that has not changed, IMO. For women, "calm" plays better than anything, but your example of HRC tearing up actually helping her points up the difference in what we expect from men and women. I do not understand it because I did not share those reactions and tended to think, on each occasion, the public reaction was manufactured by the media spin.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | September 11, 2009 7:42 AM | Report abuse

Regarding the Reagan line "I am paying for this microphone" -- it was a line from an old movie -- Spencer Tracy said it in a movie called 'State of the Union' about an industrialist running for President. If reporters at that time had been aware of this and had shown Reagan and shown the movie clip (instead of just replaying Reagan over and over, as they did) then, rather than looking like the bold leader, it would have reinforced his image as a lightweight hack actor which had been in circulation to that point.

Posted by: barryrosenfeld | September 11, 2009 7:40 AM | Report abuse

Three fantasy football leagues ARE two too many when you have a baby. Step away from the screen.

Posted by: margaretmeyers | September 11, 2009 6:26 AM | Report abuse

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