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Morning Fix: First (and Second) Thoughts on Obama Address

The Fix was up late -- for us -- last night as we tweeted President Obama's health care address to a joint session of Congress and then offered our first thoughts on the proceedings.

Having slept on it, we now bring you two additional -- call them second -- thoughts. We are still interested in how Fixistas reacted to the speech; add your own thoughts in the comments section below.

Joe Wilson's War: A little known Republican congressman from South Carolina may wind up being the best friend the White House has in the health care debate. Joe Wilson's "You lie!" outburst -- and his subsequent apology -- dominated the post-speech coverage and gave the administration a convenient foil to run against. Americans tend to blanch at rank partisanship -- particularly when it is displayed in a formal setting like the halls of Congress. As we noted in yesterday's Morning Fix, the White House was badly in need of a villain to demonize in this health care fight. Joe Wilson offered himself up for that role last night.

Is It Enough?: While the White House and the Democratic National Committee cited insta-polling that showed overwhelming majorities of the American public reacted positively to the speech, the reaction from some key Democrats in the House and Senate was more muted. The Blue Dogs released a statement after the speech saying only that they "share[d] the President's commitment to passing health care reform this year." Nebraska Sen. Ben Nelson, a critical swing vote in the Senate, said in a statement that he would "keep my eyes trained on the nitty gritty details as the debate moves forward." The Obama White House clearly believes that the way to pass this bill through Congress is by taking a bottom up approach -- energizing everyday Americans to pressure their lawmakers to take action. But, ultimately, a handful of Democratic Senators and Democratic House members may hold the fate of the bill in their hands. Did Obama do enough in the speech last night to sway those votes?

And in case you missed them last night, here are our First Thoughts:

The Confronter-in-Chief: For those -- particularly on the liberal left -- who criticized the president for not being aggressive enough in responding to the misinformation being peddled about the plan, this speech was for you. Obama repeatedly spoke in blunt language about what he termed "distortions" and "lies" being spread about what his plan would -- and wouldn't -- do. "If you misrepresent what is in this plan, we will call you out," the president warned in the speech's closing minutes. The simple fact is for health care reform to pass, the White House needs a fired up liberal base to pressure lawmakers to vote for it. The confrontational elements of this speech -- and there were many -- were designed to get the base excited again and ready them for the final fight to come.

The Orator-In-Chief: Obama proved time and again during the campaign that he has a way with words. While most of the speech was purposely prose not poetry, Obama drew on his rhetorical gifts in the closing moments of the address -- particularly in describing the letter the late Sen. Ted Kennedy (Mass.) sent to the White House in his dying days -- to remind lawmakers (and the American public) of their better angels. "We did not come here to fear the future," Obama said in his closing remark. "We came here to shape it." The close was, without doubt, the strongest moment of the speech for Obama. Was it a mistake to leave it for the end when viewership was undoubtedly dropping off? Maybe. But remember that clips from the speech will be played wall-to-wall on the networks and the cables over the next 24 hours so anyone who missed it will be sure to catch it on the re-run.

Republicans' Audio-Visual Problem: It's always a mistake to assume that the only thing viewers take from a nationally televised speech is the words the president is using. If so, the White House could simply release the remarks and be done with it. Visuals (and audio) matter. And, the two most compelling pieces of audio-visual that came out of tonight's speech -- House Minority Whip Eric Cantor (Va.) checking his blackberry and Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) shouting "you lie" at Obama -- don't work in Republicans' favor. Remember that while the American public is not sold on Obama's health care plan, overwhelming majorities say they favor the two sides working together to solve the nation's problems. The more Republicans look like they are opposing the Democratic plan for partisan reasons, the more danger they are in politically.

Specifics-Light: Knowing that everyone was waiting to hear what the Obama plan on health care was specifically, the President did lay out some basic planks that he thought should be in a bill. (The public option was not one of them although the president did say he would "not back down on the basic principle that if Americans cannot find affordable coverage, we will provide you with a choice." Obama drew derisive laughter when he acknowledged that "there remains some significant details to be ironed out" with the plan and, as always when dealing with Congress the devil is in the details.

Thursday's Fix Picks: Day four of the Fix cold.

1. The Obama Speech.
2. The Republican response.
3. A tough piece on California gubernatorial candidate Gavin Newsom.
4. Will Andy Card be a Senate candidate?
5. Ellen!

Lamontagne's Counter Programming: New Hampshire businessman Ovide Lamotagne (R), who continues to consider a Senate primary challenge to former state attorney general Kelly Ayotte, is being feted at a birthday party in New Hampshire on the same day that Ayotte will be in Washington to raise money at the National Republican Senatorial Committee. The dueling events, which are set for Sept. 22, reinforce the fact that while Ayotte is the choice of the D.C. establishment, Lamontagne carries significant support in New Hampshire, according to his allies. (In case you miss the message, the hosts of Lamontagne's even are asking for canned food donations in lieu of campaign cash.) Several heavy hitters in New Hampshire Republican politics are signed up to co-host the Lamontagne event including: Susan Duprey who served as New Hampshire finance chairman for President George W. Bush's re-election race, former New Hampshire state party executive director Jen Wrobleski and Cliff Hurst who ran former governor Mike Huckabee's (Ark.) New Hampshire primary campaign in 2008.

American Future Fund Pressures Moderate Dems: The American Future Fund, a conservative-aligned third party group based in Iowa, is up with ads against three moderate Democratic House members urging them to oppose the so-called "public" option. The ads, which are running in the districts of Reps. Mike Ross (Ark.), Collin Peterson (Minn.) and Baron Hill (Ind.) quote extensively from comments made by California Rep. Pete Stark (D) including a comment that those who opposed the public option were "brain dead." Sources familiar with the ad buy, which also includes some ads in the Washington, D.C. market, say that it is costing AFF "six figures" and that the commercials will run on broadcast and cable in individual members' districts. Ross, for one, has already come out in opposition to a public option earlier this week.

Elaine Marshall Dips a Toe Into NC-Senate Race: Secretary of State Elaine Marshall (D) formed an exploratory committee on Tuesday that will allow her to raise money for a potential challenge to Sen. Richard Burr (R) in 2010. Marshall said that Burr "supported the misguided policies that brought our economy to its knees and, now, he's standing in the way of efforts to get us back on the right track." Marshall is best known for defeating racing legend Richard Petty (R) in a 1996 race but has run for the Senate once before -- back in 2002 when she lost a primary to former White House chief of staff Erskine Bowles. Many establishment Democrats are still waiting to see whether Rep. Bobby Etheridge will run as they view him as the stronger of the two candidates. But, Etheridge has considered a Senate run several times in the past only to pull away at the last moment.

Click It!: Andrew Breitbart, a Washington Times columnist and publisher of the link site Breitbart.com, will launch a conservative-tinged political blog -- known as "Big Government" -- today. "Big Government is going to launch with a massive Keynesian influx of content from assorted free market thinkers, libertarian rabble-rausers and to kick start the stagnant info-economy," said Breitbart of his new project. (Keynesian!) Sidenote: Breitbart promises a "major" story will hit on the site at 9 a.m. ET.

Bouchard Hangs Shingle: Democratic operative Steve Bouchard is opening his own consulting shop known, creatively, as Bouchard Strategies. Bouchard, who had been working as an adviser to former vice president Al Gore's Alliance for Climate Protection, will retain the group as a client and plans to add several other political campaigns; he has also formed a professional partnership with Gold Communications, a direct mail firm. Bouchard has a long resume in politics; he served as South Carolina state director for then Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's presidential bid,spent time as the head of Sen. Evan Bayh's (Ind.) leadership PAC and, in 2004, was the Ohio state director for America Coming Together.

Say What?: "The leadership of the General Assembly is also stoking those fires and keeping the scandal going, and it is doing so for its own political purposes." -- State Sen. Nikki Haley, a candidate for governor in South Carolina and a one-time protege of disgraced Gov. Mark Sanford (R), resists the urge to call for his resignation.

By Chris Cillizza  |  September 10, 2009; 5:59 AM ET
Categories:  Morning Fix  
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Comments

That was only a small part of the prayer.

Posted by: JakeD | September 17, 2009 9:40 AM | Report abuse

If anyone else has any questions about my posts on this thread, please let me know.

Posted by: JakeD | September 14, 2009 5:36 PM | Report abuse

Would the Fix like to establish a line on which Republicans are most likely to be sent to their rooms without any supper by their constituents for their childish behavior, their unacceptable tantrums, and their utter lack of good manners?

==

More likely we'll get more posts reporting a GOP poll showing that things are looking up for the GOP.

Or some colorless snoozelords from some insignificant southern districts who did within-margin-of-error better in the most recent poll than they did in the one before.

Or more so-and-so-in-2012.

More sad and trite boosterism for a party whose members lie like rugs and heckle the president during a speech to both houses of Congress.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 10:11 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and G&T, take care and I hope the surgery goes brilliantly.

==

Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 9:34 PM | Report abuse

I've spent quite some time trying to decide whether to comment and get burred in the predictable, preconceived posts that are crushing every blog and editorial comment on the planet, but...

Was I watching the same CNN presentation of the president as everyone else?

I saw the President calmly step out and say, "Ok, You kids had your chance to get along and get your way, and now that you demonstrated you can't, here is how it is.", aimed quite bluntly at the Republicans.

He certainly added nothing new to the packages that will be consolidated in the next month or so, brought no new illumination on a problem that has been festering for generations. Like Beethoven, in the Ninth Symphony, he recapitulated his first movements and themes, then brought out his simply wonderful finale.

We need a national health care system.

We HAVE needed a National Health Care System for a century.

We don't have such a system because it has served narrow partisan and selfish interests to prevent us from having such a system.

Congress has had six months to finally act to get such a system, and it is plainly apparent that significant majority of Americans wants that system, but the Republican party perceives it to be to the advantage of the Republican Party to stall yet again when even they acknowledge that we will have to develop that system.

So now we forget about the obstructionists and write a health care plan that will get sixty votes for cloture and fifty or more votes in the Senate for the actual bill, which will certainly then pass in the House. America will begin to be a modern nation.

You Republicans have had decades to do something, anything, and have always chosen to do nothing and prevent anyone else from doing anything and are still doing nothing but stalling. So go sit in your corner, sulk, heckle, cry socialism, communism, massive debt, or I don't wanna to your hearts content but the adults in Congress are finally going to get the job started.

He doesn't need to worry about seeming partisan because he can't be anything else, there being only one party willing to work on solving the problem. He has the mandate, the country has the need, and Congress has the motivation.

SHOULD any Republicans reflect on their childish behavior and repent, and bring usable programs to the process they will be listened to and accommodated if possible, but the process goes to a swift conclusion now, not next year or next century.

In all of this he is right, and he has acted about as swiftly as he reasonably could.

He will get his sixty votes for cloture, and we will get a real universal health care system.

Would the Fix like to establish a line on which Republicans are most likely to be sent to their rooms without any supper by their constituents for their childish behavior, their unacceptable tantrums, and their utter lack of good manners?

Posted by: ceflynline | September 10, 2009 9:25 PM | Report abuse

If you can square those three statements, go for it. But it doesn't change the fact that the first post was extremely insulting and you should apologize for it.

==

You must be new around here. Look at him denying writing a post that's only a few scrolls down on this very page. The guy is garbage. Please write CC.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 9:25 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and G&T, take care and I hope the surgery goes brilliantly.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 10, 2009 9:23 PM | Report abuse

You are praying that he does not survive the anesthesia.

You don't pray for what you don't want.

You don't want him to die.
---------
If you can square those three statements, go for it. But it doesn't change the fact that the first post was extremely insulting and you should apologize for it.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 10, 2009 9:10 PM | Report abuse

LOL!!! If I made any mistake, I would gladly admit it.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 9:07 PM | Report abuse


Whole prayer? I don't give a crap what kind of prayer you're making up after the fact to try to back out of this one.

Real men own up to their mistakes, rather than trying to make excuses or blame someone or something else.

You are one sick git, Mr. Jake.

Posted by: yeswiican | September 10, 2009 9:02 PM | Report abuse

So, was this an exception, or do you want him to die?

==

His words are as plain as they can be. A new low for someone we didn't think could go any lower. Please email CC about that post, don't bother with "Report Abuse."

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 8:52 PM | Report abuse

As I said (below), I don't want GoldAndTanzanite (fka chrisfox8) to die before accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- you haven't even asked me for my entire prayer -- but, before you do that, maybe you can answer my question to YOU on the new thread now.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 8:41 PM | Report abuse

You guys, Chris Czillia, sorry Cillizia, is not your Dad.

Cillizza is just trying to make a living. He does not want to pick up kids on the blog and make a pretend mad face (I have the perfect one eyebrow arched like a gable, the other down to ground) and tell them they both have to say sorry.

He will have to do that in real life, if he goes for two, which he should.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 8:31 PM | Report abuse

So, was this an exception, or do you want him to die?
------------
I'm praying that he doesn't survive the anesthesia.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: yeswiican | September 10, 2009 8:29 PM | Report abuse

No.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 8:25 PM | Report abuse

JakeD: Do you normally pray for things you don't want?

Posted by: yeswiican | September 10, 2009 8:01 PM | Report abuse

P.S. Colbert fans: I checked and Rep. Joe Wilson has NOT been interviewed (only Rep. Bob Inglis from South Carolina's 4 District).

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Maybe it's because I've never made jokes about Obama's assassination, nor do I want him, DDAWD, or even GoldAndTanzanite (fka chrisfox8) to die before accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. But, that's not going to stop some here from lying about that, or claiming that I am a "racist swine", etc., etc.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 6:55 PM | Report abuse

Not quite sure what Chris C sees in this guy, but I've lost a LOT of respect for him that he's so ok with what jaked posts on here.

==

I have a feeling (hope CC is reading this). Here goes.

During the campaign CC did some of the very best reporting around. His short videos were absolute MUST-WATCH and that's coming from a guy who won't even install Flash on most machines. They were splendid, as good as Froomkin.

Now, I don't think people get stupid without some serious intervention, like a few weeks of PCP or major head trauma. But CC since the election shows not a glimmer of the insight he showed before.

I think he's gotten his marching orders: GOP boosterism or-else, high hit-counts or-else.

And there is our snivelling little Scheißkopf of a troll, doing 20-40% of the posts in every comment section. The fact that the posts are raw ugliness and speak of an awesomely rotten human being matter less than their sheer volume (to say nothing of the extra hits when people used to respond).

I think it really is as simple, and as ugly, as that.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 6:43 PM | Report abuse

Ah, I see where you asked ChrisC about it.

Kind of a dumb question, don't you think? If a guy isn't getting banned for making jokes about Obama's assassination, he sure isn't getting banned about wanting you to die.

Not quite sure what Chris C sees in this guy, but I've lost a LOT of respect for him that he's so ok with what jaked posts on here.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 10, 2009 6:38 PM | Report abuse

"I'm stronger than my tendons can stand. I have surgery tomorrow. JakeD hopes I die during it. Isn't that just precious?

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite"

Haha, is that so? If it makes you feel better, the guy would shoot me if he thought he could get away with it. I'm sure I've engaged in more deviant behavior than he can tolerate.

Good luck with that. Hopefully this takes care of whatever problem you're having.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 10, 2009 6:31 PM | Report abuse

Good luck tomorrow.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 6:21 PM | Report abuse

Don't worry, s2, I'm done. Not going back.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 5:52 PM | Report abuse

You two need to get a room.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 5:45 PM | Report abuse

I thought that was how you like it?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 5:35 PM | Report abuse

enjoy your crumbs, little doggy

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 5:31 PM | Report abuse

So much for "ignoring" me ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 5:28 PM | Report abuse

red hot poker, Jake, and all the way up.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 5:24 PM | Report abuse

I never said "I hope you die."

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 5:10 PM | Report abuse

I missed this. What's going on here?

==

I'm stronger than my tendons can stand. I have surgery tomorrow. JakeD hopes I die during it. Isn't that just precious?

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 5:04 PM | Report abuse

"Alas, that's tomorrow, today is my last day onsite at work for a while. Probably work from home all next week, over the VPN, chasin' them red semicolons.

It'll be really delicate for a while. I don't even want to drive.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite"

I missed this. What's going on here?

Posted by: DDAWD | September 10, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

I wonder if he already has some footage of Rep. Wilson from his "Better Know a District" series?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 4:55 PM | Report abuse

I can't wait for The Colbert Report to go off on it too : )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 4:54 PM | Report abuse

shames all South Carolinians, and I'm one mad South Carolinian (by BIRTH).

Posted by: angriestdogintheworld | September 10, 2009 4:46 PM | Report abuse

Funny, all morning I thought it was Friday, talk about wish fulfillment, I was wondering about your instant recovery. I thought maybe this was just a ditzle and I should not have put Malay health wishes on the board.

==

Ah, so I was right about the language, but I still couldn't translate it. A week in Malaysia and I only picked up about a dozen words. Thanks for the well-wish.

Being one-armed for six weeks is going to be a real PitA, worst of all not being able to exercise much. By the time I can really work out again I'm going to look like a fiddler crab, because I'm going to go on doing what I can with one arm.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 4:27 PM | Report abuse

Even if I get banned, I'll just come back under a new name like you are doing.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 4:14 PM | Report abuse

Why not? There is no "God" right?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 4:11 PM | Report abuse

I'm praying that he doesn't survive the anesthesia.

Posted by: JakeD

==

Hey, ChrisC, are you cool with this kinda talk?

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Funny, all morning I thought it was Friday, talk about wish fulfillment, I was wondering about your instant recovery. I thought maybe this was just a ditzle and I should not have put Malay health wishes on the board.

Bottom line on health reform for me is still this. It is a huge, huge stimulus package run through our biggest industry.

With the united health industry (unions, providers, vendors, insurers, Pharma, the whole industry loves this bill) all lined up. It will (1) pass and (2) the Chinese will have to, have to I say, finance it.

This will be spending like we have never seen, apart from war. But this is for a peaceful purpose. I am ready. I want a raise, I deserve a raise and I will get a raise!


Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 4:08 PM | Report abuse

I'm praying that he doesn't survive the anesthesia.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

Apparently conservatism means nothing more or less than keeping things the way they are, or more likely, the way they were in 1950. Or 1860. Or only in their narrow little minds.

==

Look at history. For almost all of it there have been two classes: serfs and lords. For a few decades in a few countries we toyed with the idea of having people in between, owning land but not riotously wealthy, and with some small measure of control over their own fate.

The wealthy powers have been enraged over this, see it as unnatural and wrong and strive to return to the natural order. That's what all this is about.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

Apparently conservatism means nothing more or less than keeping things the way they are, or more likely, the way they were in 1950. Or 1860. Or only in their narrow little minds.

If they have theirs, then screw everyone else. But let's make new laws to make everyone live their lives exactly the way we would.

Hypocrites all.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 4:00 PM | Report abuse

Productivity and server capacity at his workplace is going to skyrocket while he's gone.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:56 PM | Report abuse

shrink2:

He goes under the knife tomorrow.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Good, I take it you arm is fixed. You are all fired up so you must not be in too much pain

==

Alas, that's tomorrow, today is my last day onsite at work for a while. Probably work from home all next week, over the VPN, chasin' them red semicolons.

It'll be really delicate for a while. I don't even want to drive.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 3:52 PM | Report abuse

mikeinmidland:

Yes, I can read -- they may not be "entitled" to them (but that's not what Obama denied) -- they will get them under the current proposals.

No, even if you made those changes, because of the IRS mandates for young and healthy and anyone else who chooses not to purchase private insurance -- take that provision out too, and we can talk ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:51 PM | Report abuse

Good, I take it you arm is fixed. You are all fired up so you must not be in too much pain.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 3:49 PM | Report abuse

Come on, mike

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

But the Republican voters are not the rich. Nowadays they are pretty much downwardly mobile white bigots.

==

... whose lives are flashing before their terrified eyes because THERE'S A BLACK FAMILY IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

So the white bigots who comprise the remaining GOP voter base, having not the first clue where their self-interest actually lies, instead of opposing the people who are selling them out in the name of free trade and profit maximization, instead attack a straw man created by the Limbaugh right .. fictitious elitist east coast liberals who look down their thin noses at rural white ... bigots.

Lock, load, aim at feet, fire. That was last year.

This year they're aiming between their own eyes.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 3:44 PM | Report abuse

Can YOU read? I said they were not entitled to them.

There are plenty of laws against insurance fraud and identity theft (sharing ssn's) and so forth in this country. Not to mention the laws against being here illegally in the first place. Enforce those. Debate those.

The Heller Amendment would make enforcement of immigration policy a duty of the insurance and medical professionals. It belongs to the INS and the Border Patrol.

Now tell the truth: If they take out the public option and put in the Heller Amendment, would you be in favor of it?

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 3:42 PM | Report abuse

"Ask the Republican agriculture titans who employ them and would fight to keep them here, lest they have to pay real wages."

Yes. And therein lies the problem, for all to see. The Republican leaders were the very rich, they were working on behalf of the rich, looting the country, and directly subverted the interests of the center, the middle class. Borders should exist, illegal migration is bad for everybody, except of course, for the short term interests of the rich.

But the Republican voters are not the rich. Nowadays they are pretty much downwardly mobile white bigots.

The mask the Republican party had to wear was that their candidates might despise the imported workforce (or exporting jobs) as much as their voters. So they blamed unions for America's job losses and they made show raids on this or that slaughterhouse or cannery, just once in awhile.

But the mask is off and this is why the Republicans have no viable candidates for national office. A real Republican, say Sarah Palin, refuses to wear the mask and so, has no chance; it is just a demographic reality.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 3:37 PM | Report abuse

A columnist over at the NYT (I think it was Bob Herbert) coined a terms for the GOP nutjobs like the birth certificate loonies, the death panel loonies, and it probably covers the Club Med for Illegal Aliens liars .. he calls them "absurdists."

I'd say the shoe fits.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 3:35 PM | Report abuse

(Keep in mind that the Heller amendment which was proposed exactly to prevent that from happening was defeated via straight party-line vote ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:32 PM | Report abuse

O.K., now we are getting somewhere, mikeinmidland. If you think that the new "affordability credits" will NOT be given to illegal aliens, please cite any provision in any bill which prevents that from happening.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

"The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

Now, either they will or they will not. It's very simple (mikeinmidland and shrink2 have already admitted they will).

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:28 PM | Report abuse

Wrong.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 3:28 PM | Report abuse

mikeinmidland:

Except for those new "affordability credits" right?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:26 PM | Report abuse

P.S. how does constantly referring to "our racist troll", "him", "he" and "his" equate to IGNORING me again?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Opponents of the healthcare reform effort are trying to confuse people into joining their opposition. They use the fact that illegal aliens already get certain coverage or benefits, to IMPLY that they will get them BECAUSE of the reform.

Illegals are not entitled to any new benefits under the proposed reforms.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

GoldAndTanzanite:

"Undocumented workers", "immigrants", "citizens of the world" -- whatever politically correct term you want to call them -- are referred to as legal or illegal "aliens" in the law.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:22 PM | Report abuse

Even so, nobody shouted "liar" at him, now, did they?
==
No liberals just made a movie on how to asassinate him. Berrated him on the international stage all while he kept this country safe.
Wether he deserved respect is a matter of opinion, but that the office and his precesnce as president in the congressional chamber reserves respect is a matter of historical precedence.

Posted by: vasco44 | September 10, 2009 3:22 PM | Report abuse

@BobbyWC:

Everyone here knows full well that our racist troll lies in every post. It's not something anyone needs pointed out.

We regulars also have a little pact going on here, since the blog author appears inclined to sanction the birther BS and the endless repetition and attention-seeking ("seeking" isn't the word I mean to use) .. we don't respond to the troll, nor refer to him, nor allude to him, however unhinged he gets in his desperate need for attention. Please join us in this endeavor, in the hope that his screeching for attention finally gets him removed.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

Bobby WC:

Undocumented workers do NOT currently receive "affordability credits" to purchase health insurance. If you want me to take your name off of those who admit they will be able to in the future, just point me to any provision in any bill being considered which prevents that from happening.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:19 PM | Report abuse

Obama did not say that no aliens would be covered under the plan.

==

Not sure how terrestrial healthcare will work on alien physiology.

When did their ship arrive?

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 3:16 PM | Report abuse

No, he claimed that those who pointed out they would be are lying:

"There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:16 PM | Report abuse

JakeD,

in clear and no uncertain terms - you are a liar - This is why you and your type are dismissed. I clearly stated that they can already buy insurance -

Now try the truth Jake - you want Congress to demand insurance companies police their policy holders to insure none are undocumented workers - you want to impose more regulations on insurance companies

JakeD again - you are a liar - nothing I said or anyone else said indicates Obama wants to allow undocumented workers to buy insurance they already do not buy.

can you say it JakeD "JakeD is a liar"

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 10, 2009 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Obama did not say that no aliens would be covered under the plan.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 3:12 PM | Report abuse

drindl:

Don't look now, but someone (not the rugby player) was arrested during pResident Obama's speech at the Capitol with a loaded shotgun.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Man-With-Gun-Arrested-Outside-Obama-Speech-58491317.html

Good thing Rep. Wilson (or one of his aids) didn't sneak one into the House chamber.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:11 PM | Report abuse

Exactly what do all of you anti undocumented workers think will happen when you deport 10 million people? how is removing 10 million consumers from the economy during a recession a good thing?

==

Ask the Republican agriculture titans who employ them and would fight to keep them here, lest they have to pay real wages.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Should democrats have been cesured when they booed President Bush or should a lack of respect and decorum only apply to republicans.

==

Do you think Bush *deserved* respect?

I would say that he gets respect automatically just by virtue of his office, but by 2005 he had squandered even that many times over, and was not deserving of any respect from anyone.

Even so, nobody shouted "liar" at him, now, did they?

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 3:08 PM | Report abuse

Hey Reid:

Should democrats have been cesured when they booed President Bush or should a lack of respect and decorum only apply to republicans. I bet you did not ask to censure democrats then..actually it doesn't really matter Harry you'll be out in 2010. things aren't looking good for you in Nevada

Posted by: vasco44 | September 10, 2009 3:05 PM | Report abuse

Hey Reid:

Should democrats have been cesured when tey booed President Bush or should a lack of respect and decorum only apply to republicans. I bet you did not ask to censure democrats then..actually it doesn't really matter Harry you'll be out in 2010. things aren't looking good for you in Nevada

Posted by: vasco44 | September 10, 2009 3:05 PM | Report abuse

OK, so far, that's Bobby, mikeinmidland, and shrink2 who have admitted that illegal aliens will be covered under any new Obamacare. Anyone else want to own up to the truth (boring or not)?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 3:02 PM | Report abuse

I grow so bored with two issues - tort reform and undocumented workers - it is nearly impossible to sue for medical malpractice in Texas - you must have a doctor sign an affidavit verifying the malpractice - this gets expensive - after the reform malpractice rates went up -

Exactly what do all of you anti undocumented workers think will happen when you deport 10 million people? how is removing 10 million consumers from the economy during a recession a good thing?

yes, undocumented workers will be allowed to buy health insurence from the coop - so what - they buy health insurance now - why is the GOP trying to impose more costly regulations on insurance companies to police the issue of being in the US legally? - I say lets impose the same regulations on McDonalds - what a stupid stupid idea.

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 10, 2009 2:52 PM | Report abuse

True.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Spellcheckers don't catch gaffes and Freudian slips. Also, they don't work when you don't use them.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 2:46 PM | Report abuse

Honestly, my thought when I heard it was "Joe Wilson": "Why does Mr. Valerie Plame have a beef against Obama?".

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse


If malpractice lawsuits got "Doctor" Boustany out of medicine (albeit into Congress) then I'd say that's a good thing.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

should hold up = should NOT hold up (darn Spellchecker ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 2:37 PM | Report abuse

Obama on Wilson: "We all make mistakes."

Pelosi on Wilson: "We need to focus on healthcare."

Reid on Wilson: "He should be censured."

==

Good on Harry Reid, he's the last one I would have expected to show some spine

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 2:30 PM | Report abuse

Right, and tort reform should hold up your precious Obamacare either, right? Section 370 applied to "Conduct DURING Debate" (Emphasis Added). Curiously, the Senate has no similary rule prohibiting personal attacks against the President (assuming that Obama is even a natural-born citizen ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 2:26 PM | Report abuse


This bill does not directly give additional medical benefits to illegal aliens.

There are existing laws regarding employment of aliens, which, if enforced, would alleviate a lot of the problem. Congress should deal with immigration as a separate issue, not hold up healthcare reform because of it.

Oh, I see Wilson got his start as an aide to Strom Thurmond. I guess the nut doesn't fall far from the tree in South Carolina.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 2:19 PM | Report abuse

It's remarkable how Obama can lie with a straight face. He's sucked the air out of this subject. Now the cost is 900 bill, such a joke. No illegals, please. No rationing when 30 mill are added..oh my. Considering tort reform, please. The Kennedy remarks, sympathy vote. Good try Mr. Pres. no sale......

Posted by: MOMLEE | September 10, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

Obama on Wilson: "We all make mistakes."

Pelosi on Wilson: "We need to focus on healthcare."

Reid on Wilson: "He should be censured."

--------
According to section 370 of the House rules manual, members may not:

* call the President a "liar."
* call the President a "hypocrite."
* describe the President's veto of a bill as "cowardly."
* charge that the President has been "intellectually dishonest."
* refer to the President as "giving aid and comfort to the enemy."
* refer to alleged "sexual misconduct on the President's part."
---------

I knew the rules were specific, but not THAT specific.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 2:12 PM | Report abuse

mikeinmidland:

The "change" is that Obamacare will have "affordability credits" which (on paper) are not supposed to go to illegal aliens, but will no doubt end up with at least some illegal aliens -- as you and shrink2 admit, there's no enforcement against that now and the Dems rejected any amendment to H.R. 3200 to provide for enforcement -- that's the "lie".

As for the huge taxes being raked in on illegal alien income, what about all the payments under the table?! Of course there's no taxes taken out of that. What we need to TAX is cash/wire transfers back to Mexico and other third world countries.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Illegals get limited medical care now, and they will continue to get it under the reform plan. And that's a good thing. Those same illegals are paying more into the system than they are costing anyway.

==

Yeah their income gets taxed but they don't get the benefits of government services. And the GOP wants to portray this as a real sweet deal.

Posted by: GoldAndTanzanite | September 10, 2009 1:53 PM | Report abuse

"That will continue to be the case, regardless of the "reform" effort under way. This is a really good thing."

I agree with both points. The proposed legislation does not contain "enforcement" language, but that just means that there is really no change with respect to illegal aliens.

Illegals get limited medical care now, and they will continue to get it under the reform plan. And that's a good thing. Those same illegals are paying more into the system than they are costing anyway.

It's like the republicans saying, "Under the Obama plan, it will get dark at night!"

There. Is. No. Change.

But it's not about illegals anyway. That's just an excuse to oppose the plan. Republicans will try to block everything Obama does. But it's a convenient excuse, an acceptable objection to raise, and it plays well with dittoheads.


Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 1:31 PM | Report abuse

Two thoughts on health care speech:

1) Pres Obama unfortunately did not make it clear that there is not one proposed health care bill at this time but draft health care bills from a couple of committees so what he was saying was "in" the bill was only his (administrations') ideas for what should be in the bill that is passed. Which is why some critics complained of differences in the 'bill' and what the President was proposing.

2) The controversy about whether illegals should be covered or not is moot since the system (us) is now and will be paying for the health care of illegals via emergency room visits etc. (It might be less expensive if illegals were included).

Posted by: rawreid | September 10, 2009 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Well, last night represented another giant stride for the GOP in branding itself as the party of belligerent southern white extremists. If that's their goal: success!

Posted by: nodebris | September 10, 2009 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Everybody in the country is now able to obtain medical care on an emergency (broadly defined - like, from a tooth abscess to a bullet wound) basis, in addition to obstetrical and prenatal care, lots of preventive stuff like immunization and nutritional support, adjudicated mental health care and lots of other public health/medical services regardless of fee basis (whether or not they can or will pay for it). That will continue to be the case, regardless of the "reform" effort under way. This is a really good thing.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 1:15 PM | Report abuse

jeanmconway:

Thanks for commenting on our internal political debate. For the record, I think that OBAMA was the one lying (Wilson simply took Obama's own advice and CALLED HIM OUT on it ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 1:08 PM | Report abuse

shrink2:

Do you think that Obama lied about healthcare for illegal aliens?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 1:06 PM | Report abuse

rory conway of ireland here. Rep . joe wilsons comments bring to minda Limerick penned many years ago in the u.k . island to the east of my country when a suspect " lady" slept with the minister for defence , john profumo . who issued a falsehood in the House of Commons. it went,
her name was Christine Keeler. it went
"what have you done said Christine,
you have wrecked the whole Party machine,
to lie in the nude is extremely rude,
but to lie in the House is obscene"

rory

Posted by: jeanmconway | September 10, 2009 1:04 PM | Report abuse

My "Bottom Line" questions were: how many even watched last night (we know that only half of his first joint session TV audience) and changed their minds? Again, I doubt that many.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 1:03 PM | Report abuse

I explicitly avoided diagnostic terminology, it was insinuating, that is what I was doing.

Still not nice, I'll grant that. I'll bet Bobby is a good guy, but oh that response speech, it was sooo bad, maybe the worst I've ever seen on national television.

Changing topic,

Previously I suggested...the only argument against this plan is that it amounts to force feeding the industry, yesterday I called it medical fois gras.

Inasmuch as I love the idea of this health care stimulus package, the idea that it will not add to the deficit is ludicrous - unless you net the cost/benefit a full generation from now.

Another topic,

G&T has not been banned again, he is getting a broken wing fixed today.

Finally,

sverigegrabb,

First, I like jokes with medical terms, excrete a bill, heh, heh. But we are darn close to the final draft, not in terms of time of course, but content.

There is no way the Ds can back out of the deals they, via Daschle no doubt, have made with the industry now. Trial balloons have been up for months. Any major change from the Baucus bill and the reform effort will explode. But I am sure there is still going to be some more shouting and posing and some more special interest give aways will occur as the vote counts are set up.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Did Rush Limbaugh really say "ecstatic"? That's worth $200,000 to Rep. Wilson right there.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:53 PM | Report abuse

I'm amazed how Obama ALWAYS rises to the occasion when presenting a major speech. The speech is a great followup lesson for the students addressed earlier this week. Perfectly structured, offering elements of approval and criticism, ending with a call towards "our character."

The other side of the coin finds Limbaugh "ecstatic" when Wilson gave his outburst.

Yes, Rush. We're ecstatic on our side of the fence too. Wilson's seat is ready for the taking.

Posted by: larrybuchas | September 10, 2009 12:45 PM | Report abuse

I approached last night's speech with a feeling of dread. I turned off CNN immediately after the President finished speaking, buoyed up with renewed hope. Yes, I'm a Democrat on the left who has been very unhappy in recent weeks. Now that Joe Wilson has hit the fan I think everything is once again possible.

Posted by: AlbertJamesArnold | September 10, 2009 12:41 PM | Report abuse

tsk tsk, shrink2. Diagnosing people on the internet?? (just kidding)

There isn't much out there in youtubeville on Jindal speeches outside of his Obama response.

But let me give you a Meet The Press clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzlUKlVL2Uo

And here's the Obama response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFK8aTpYAmg

It's like two different people.

I'm no Jindal fan and I'm not saying he's a great speaker. I'm just saying he's better than that Obama response.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 10, 2009 12:40 PM | Report abuse

shrink2:

Do you think that Obama lied about not adding a "single dime" to the federal deficit?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:35 PM | Report abuse

mikeinmidland:

The AP factchecker does not take into account the lack of enforcement mechanism. Also, "We the People" can do a lot that is un-Constitutional, like FEDERAL healthcare for illegal aliens or interning Japanese-Americans. Doesn't make it right though.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD, public speaking is a gift, some have it and some don't. Acting natural in front of a huge audience is brutal. While taking acting lessons, anxiolytics, hypnosis and all that helps, great orators are born, not made.
Poor Bobby. I think taking on a fake name is a clue as to what causes his trouble. People have a primal fear of being exposed.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Of course he was shaky after all of the death threats. Once again, you can donate to Rep. Joe Wilson here:

https://www.completecampaigns.com/public.asp?name=Wilson&page=2

If you prefer to mail a check the old fashioned way:

Joe Wilson for Congress
P.O. Box 2145
West Columbia, SC 29171

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:30 PM | Report abuse

The AP fact checker supports Obama's assertion. Wilson is the liar.

My favorite Republican famously referred to our government as "of the People, by the People, for the People". That was not true of "government" in Jesus' time (Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's). If we ARE the government, then we can care for "the least of these" through government action.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 12:27 PM | Report abuse

"Rep. Wilson (R-SC), the new face of Republican opposition to health care reform, just went before the cameras for the first time looking sweaty and sort of shaky like he might be about to cry. I know that sounds a bit like trash talk. But that's actually how he came off, his affect and expressions. He gave a pretty weak rationale for his claims about coverage of illegal aliens and then dashed off. We'll have the video for you shortly.

Wilson also confirmed that the GOP House leadership contacted him after his outburst and told him to contact the White House and apologize."

I willpost the video when it comes out.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 12:24 PM | Report abuse

"The R. response to Pres. O's speech was an improvement over Gov. Jindal's Peewee-Goes-To-D.C./Gone With The Grownups speech of a few months ago, but was hardly stirring.

Posted by: sverigegrabb"

Republicans seem to enjoy tossing Louisianians into the fire. I was listening to the guy from yesterday on NPR a few months ago. Unfortunately, the discussion was waaaay over my head. Very wonky. The guy seems smart enough.

To be fair to Jindal, I think he was overcoached for his response to Obama. I've listened to the guy speak a few times including in person recently. What you saw on TV is the complete opposite of his natural style, which is a lot more fast paced (perhaps too much so), but definitely not how he spoke after Obama's address.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 10, 2009 12:24 PM | Report abuse

kristilj:

Look up the definition for "POSTERITY" if you don't want to believe me.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

DDAWD:

I know you can't respond, but I hope you saw that last night's speech only got a combined 13.2 rating in the early metered markets across NBC (5.5), ABC (4.7) and CBS (3.0). One ratings point = 1% of the television homes. LOL!!! Along with his job approval ratings, still sinking like a stone in water.

By comparison, pResident Obama's first speech to Congress in February drew a 24.5 metered-market household share, almost twice as many. Healthcare debate is D.O.A.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

JakeS

Life (specifically UNBORN life) and liberty are in the Preamble too.

Are you serious! The founders of this country could not even begin to understand life in the same way that we do now. Medical advances in neonatal care notwithstanding. That same document also stated that African Americans were only a fraction of a person. Arguing with narrow minded people like you is a waste of time.

Posted by: kristilj | September 10, 2009 12:19 PM | Report abuse

It might be wise to remember that we are currently discussing: FOUR actual Bills produced by the relevant committees (and waiting for Sen. Baucus's Senate Bill). Once his committee has excreted that Bill, there will be a total of FIVE.

Assuming the bills win sufficient votes, the Emerging House and Senate Bills will have to be reconciled in conference and a FINAL Bill will emerge. That is when everyone will have something definite to get their knickers in a twist over.

That point is several months away, so we're not even discussing the actual Bill in its final state! So let's just keep our cool about the details until we know what they ultimately will be.

Appropos keeping one's cool: Rep. Wilson's outburst. I've never heard of such an outburst during ANY Presidential speech before. However one feels about any subject or individual, that was not the setting in which to explode. Apologies and woodshed visits accompanied by Party elders notwithstanding, he didn't do the Republicans any favours.

The R. response to Pres. O's speech was an improvement over Gov. Jindal's Peewee-Goes-To-D.C./Gone With The Grownups speech of a few months ago, but was hardly stirring.

Posted by: sverigegrabb | September 10, 2009 12:19 PM | Report abuse

mikeinmindland:

I have read all 1100+ pages of H.R. 3200, have you? There's no enforcement mechanism to prevent illegal aliens from getting healthcare AND the Dems rejected an amendment aimed at doing just that. That's why Obama is lying.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:18 PM | Report abuse

"If Jesus were alive today, he would be shot by one of these hate-filled freaks like the ones on this board, who call themselves 'christians' but clearly have no clue what that means.

Posted by: drindl"

I know, right? At least by the looks - long hair, robe and sandals. Seems more like a leftist hippie than a gun toting redneck.

Posted by: DDAWD | September 10, 2009 12:17 PM | Report abuse

shrink2:

BUT, but, The One said that Obamacare won't add a "single dime" to the federal deficit!!!

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

The AP fact checker backs up Obama most strongly on the exact point (illegals) that Wilson called Obama a liar for.

If the reimbursment increase is a regular event, and it is not contained in the final bill, then it should not be counted as a deficit. The separate bill would be.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

When you give primary medical access to millions of previously uninsured people, the cost of detecting and treating the conditions that would otherwise have appeared at the tertiary level will be enormous.

And of course, no matter what gets treated on the way, everyone still dies of something and the cost of end of life care will always represent the major portion of a health care budget (see recent article on the coming fiscal crisis in Japan's system of care as their post-war (they have baby boomers too) population ages out of the work force). Death can not be made cheaper unless it is ignored.

But the good news is better than the bad news. The benefit to the country will accrue as the next generation benefits from preventive and primary care services, starting with family planning and prenatal care.

A healthy, educated work force is a happy work force and happy people tend to work hard and succeed; they tend to have happy, healthy, hard working kids too.

The Republican ideal of rugged individualism, each taking care of their own is about the Balkanization of culture. It is so tribal and such an utterly ineffective strategy for a country that maintains the conceit that it leads the world.

I take smug pleasure in the fact that one of the most notorious proponents of the pure virtue of rugged individualism, Bo Greitz, shot himself when his wife got tired of his antics and left him. I'd say Ted Nugent might be next, but I would not wish that on anyone. Humans are in fact socialists and individualists.

There is a tension between the two that will never end, but it can be rationalized. Many things in life are better left to individual choice, no government intervention is helpful. The health of the population is not one of those things.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

Burn your Medicare Card!

"Say you’re adamantly opposed to government involvement in health care? Show the government and the media how mad you are. Don’t take government meddling in health care anymore. Burn your Medicare enrollment card in protest. Do it right there on the Capitol steps. Be just as angry as if at a town hall meeting shouting down the Devil.

Have a national burn your Medicare card day and get all the right wing prophets to gather their flocks on the mall. Build a bonfire of cards and burn effigies of Satan’s socialistcrats who control Congress and of the antichrist himself, Obama.

Way back in 1961 the far sighted visionary Ronald Reagan warned against Medicare as socialism that would destroy the country.

Don’t wait. Burn your Medicare card before it’s too late. Save your soul. Don’t die socialist. Better to burn your card or that of a love one than it is to burn in hell for being a socialist who would have the government feed the hungry, house the homeless or do unto the least of them."

If I don't hear of large numbers of people rejecting Medicare because it is socialist, I will have to conclude that these people who think healthcare is socialist are just not serious.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

I'm from California, and if I were in Congress, I would have stood up with my back to pResident Obama at his FIRST lie. No need to shout (as Martin Luther King, Jr. taught ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse

No one could have predicted that a white southern Congressman would heckle a black president.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 12:09 PM | Report abuse

As I already said, Jesus never once said that GOVERNMENT should care for the less well off. If He came back today, you libs would be in a bunch of trouble.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

"For a nation with a majority of the population following some variant of Christian theology we really "

If Jesus were alive today, he would be shot by one of these hate-filled freaks like the ones on this board, who call themselves 'christians' but clearly have no clue what that means.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 12:07 PM | Report abuse

Kristilj:

Life (specifically UNBORN life) and liberty are in the Preamble too.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:03 PM | Report abuse

pResident Obama didn't just lie about illegal aliens getting healthcare coverage:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_fact_check

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

dcraven
you are correct and I am not arguing with you. I was trying to bolster your argument. What is in the Preamble is not what gives Congress the authority. That lies in the specific section of the constitution I cited.

Posted by: kristilj | September 10, 2009 11:56 AM | Report abuse

I can see Wilson's campaign add now: "Rep. Wilson: he acts a bit better than foreign anti-American terrorists."

Posted by: nodebris | September 10, 2009 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Gallenod:

Jesus never once said that GOVERNMENT should care for the less well off.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

Or, you can donate to Rep. Joe Wilson here:

https://www.completecampaigns.com/public.asp?name=Wilson&page=2

If you prefer to mail a check the old fashioned way:

Joe Wilson for Congress
P.O. Box 2145
West Columbia, SC 29171

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 11:51 AM | Report abuse

Kinda funny that to find an equivalent to the behavior of Rep. Wilson, conservative apologists have to reference the behavior of hostile foreigners.

Posted by: nodebris | September 10, 2009 11:51 AM | Report abuse

Mark: thanks, that's good info.

Absolutely agree that disease doesn't care about immigration status. Hopefully something like swine flu won't prove that point even further.

Then again, given the debate over whether local law enforcement should check immigration status when they arrest people, it may only be a matter of time before the hardcore illegal alien haters call for the medical community to verify residency status and report illegals to DHS. It would be a wonderful way to frighten potential pandemic carriers to avoid medical help and put the general population at risk.

For a nation with a majority of the population following some variant of Christian theology we really could take Jesus's admonition to care for the less well off a bit more to heart.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 10, 2009 11:50 AM | Report abuse

I suggest you all write a post right now to Chris Cilizza. The live grenade comment was over the top. Let's try to get rid of this violent racist creep.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 11:50 AM | Report abuse

Kristilj wrote:

Promoting the general welfare language is not in the Preamble. It canbe found in Article I, Section 8, which lays out the powers of Congress. Life and liberty appear nowhere in the Constitution .

My comment:

My bad. While its in the preamble, it also is in Article I, Section 8. In any event, the claim that this has no Constitutional basis is just wrong.

Posted by: dcraven925 | September 10, 2009 11:49 AM | Report abuse

mikeinmidland:

When someone throws a shoe (or live grenade) at Obama, let me know.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

This is funny.

"Proof that one man’s loss is another man’s gain: in the hours following South Carolina’s GOP Rep. Joe Wilson’s “You lie!” outburst during President Barack Obama’s joint address to Congress Wednesday evening, his 2010 Democratic opponent has raised about $100,000 from 3,000 people, according to a spokeswoman for the House Democrats’ campaign operation.

The Democratic grassroots immediately sprang in to action last night to aid Rob Miller, an Iraq War veteran who unsuccessfully challenged Wilson in 2008 and is seeking a rematch next year.

“Defeating the man who yelled ‘liar’ at Obama: Good-bye Rep. Joe Wilson,” states ActBlue, which collects funds from small donors."

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/09/10/joe-wilsons-you-lie-provides-fund-raising-boon-for-opponent/

Go here to donate -even a few bucks shows what you think of this boor.

http://www.actblue.com/page/kossacks4miller

You can go to Joe Millier's website to volunteer to man the phonebanks remotely for his campaign. Join me -- let's trounce 'em again!

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 11:45 AM | Report abuse

Some of the same people who say it's unconstitutional to collect Medicare taxes, or to fine you for not buying healthcare, also think it is okay to force people to have children. Hmmm.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 11:45 AM | Report abuse

DDAWD:

Wrong again. Last night's speech had a combined 13.2 rating in the early metered markets across NBC (5.5), ABC (4.7) and CBS (3.0). One ratings point = 1% of the television homes. LOL!!! Along with his job approval ratings, still sinking like a stone in water.

pResident Obama's first speech to Congress in February drew a 24.5 metered-market household rating across four broadcast networks, or approximately 49.5 million viewers. That's almost exactly the same rating as the overnights from Obama's first press conference a couple of weeks earlier.

Don't worry, I don't expect you will apologize.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 11:44 AM | Report abuse

drindl, the only argument against it is that it amounts to force feeding the industry, yesterday I called it medical fois gras.

Inasmuch as I love the idea of this health care stimulus package, the idea that it will not add to the deficit is ludicrous - unless you net the cost/benefit a full generation from now.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 11:40 AM | Report abuse

General grumbling, or even booing, during a speech is somewhat ambiguous. People will boo at a truth they acknowledge, because they want to change it.

There are rules of decorum in the House and the Senate. Congressmen go to great lengths to avoid directly calling each other liars, no matter how obvious it might be. To ignore that rule when the President is speaking is quite a lapse. And unprecedented in that chamber.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 11:40 AM | Report abuse

Ignore the troll.

What's amazing to me is that of every possible reason to object to this legislation -- and there are some, to be sure -- the only two that opponents seem to be able to come up with is either that it is 'unconstutional' [a joke] or that it would cover illegal immigrant. Both false.

Oh, and 'death panels' -- also false.

They can't come up with a good argument against it, so they just make stuff up.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

kristilj:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." (Emphasis Added)

You never watched Schoolhouse Rock?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

show = shoe (darn Spellchecker ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Promoting the general welfare language is not in the Preamble. It canbe found in Article I, Section 8, which lays out the powers of Congress. Life and liberty appear nowhere in the Constitution .

Posted by: kristilj | September 10, 2009 11:26 AM | Report abuse

hayden1:

I never said that the show (or grenade) thrower was American. If you only wanted examples of American Congressmen booing GWB during the State of the Union, just ask:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/10/flashback_democrats_boo_bush_at_2005_state_of_the_union.html

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 11:25 AM | Report abuse

The government can not make you buy health insurance, they can tax you to pay into a health insurance pool if you don't buy health insurance. You can pay that tax and stay uninsured, or not pay it and buy insurance.

I don't have a problem with this because everyone is in fact already insured, you get in a car wreck, or get a bad case of H1N1, you get the same health care as everyone else, whether or not you pay the bill.

Making everyone pay to play acknowledges the fact that the medical infrastruture is for everyone and people should not be able to opt out of paying for something they will gladly use, should their luck turn sour.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 11:24 AM | Report abuse

Jack 29 Wrote:

Has everyone forgotten the Constitution? Under what part of that document can the government force people to buy health insurance?


My Comment:

The Preamble. It states: "promote the general welfare".

Jack29 wrote:
I'm sure someone will say: Well, they force us to get car insurance. Well, pilgrim, driving a car is a privilege, so to enjoy that privilege you have to buy insurance.

My comment:
Lots of items are required. If you have a job you contribute to Social Security. If you are over 65 you are on Medicare.

Jack29 wrote:
Last I heard "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" is a right.

My comment: Hmmm... The Constitution is not the same thing as the Declaration of Independence.

Jack29 wrote:
And health insurance is intrinsically to protect your life. Clearly unconstitutional.

My Comment:
Are laws against Suicide Unconstitutional? Under your theory of Constitutional law they would be "clearly unconstitutional". And you would be wrong.

Jack 29 wrote:
If fines don't work what will Obama do? Confiscate your spleen?

My Comment:
Exactly what happens now when you refuse to pay FICA.

Posted by: dcraven925 | September 10, 2009 11:13 AM | Report abuse

CC,

You're plugging breitbart.com? What, Drudge isn't giving him enough hits? Or are you trying to entice more Drudge readers to The Fix?

Even after last night's speech, health care reform is still under the control of Senators representing a small fraction of the US populace (ME, NE, IA, MT, NV, etc.). I wonder what the Founding Fathers would think about how Congress works today.

Posted by: mnteng | September 10, 2009 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: JakeD
Or, when shoes got thrown at GWB?
-------------
Thanks JakeD for the total non sequiter. As I recall no Democratic lawmaker has ever heckled GWB at a joint session of Congress. I am sure you will pull out all sorts of examples out of your butt to retort. The shoe thrower was Iraqi not American.
Your stupidity is clear to view as you are no Independent but one of the rank-and-file GOP hate-filled kooks.

Posted by: hayden1 | September 10, 2009 11:10 AM | Report abuse

After talking to a bunch of people, I'm convinced that the speech was a game changer. So many people just didn't understand what was going on and what Obama wanted and many of the provisions. He did a beautiful job explaining everything and laying it all out there. Not the most detail oriented speech, but that's not what was called for at this time. Given the fact that a LOT of people watched it, (I believe about as much as his first presser), this could really turn the debate around.

I'm not going to give Eric Cantor a lot of cr*p. I'm quite sure the guy is capable of listening to the speech and texting at the same time. Joe Wilson just made the party look petulant. Same with those signs. And Obama's vow to call out the liars might force a change in the strategy of the Republicans who definitely don't want national notoriety for their nonsense.

And Hugh Hefner is married???

Posted by: DDAWD | September 10, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

the other day I was researching the comments of a former Bush speech writer who has become very critical of the radical right - I found this - he referenced it first - I then looked for the original source. I think it fits this entire debate

"Jane's Law: The devotees of the party in power are smug and arrogant. The devotees of the party out of power are insane" I believe the below link is the original author of this "Law"

http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/004185.html

Bobby Wightman-Cervantes

Posted by: bobbywc | September 10, 2009 11:00 AM | Report abuse

Mark, you are so correct on the undocs - but as we both know reality does not go far with those who prefer the dark.

here is another one - I am thinking about moving to San Antonio - the typical property tax for the community hospital (serves uninsureds) is about $500.00 a year - my point being we are already paying for the uninsured. I would think this tax will go down once everyone is insured.

I wish someone would post the total taxes Americans pay every year to support community hospitals ( I support community hospitals - I am just bringing out the tax issue)

Great comment mark

Bobby WC

Posted by: bobbywc | September 10, 2009 10:48 AM | Report abuse

True that Mark, in fact, most agricultural communities supply free primary care, immunization and prevention services to these working families because their kids are in school, they shop, they drive and their health and the health of the community in general is all one. I brought up Jim Crow (and Apartheid) because these were among other things, attempts to separate public health risk by segregating risk pools.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Gallenod and shrink - I work for management in the employment law field. We have much to do in the way of disinviting undocs/IAs and I have written at length here about specifics in the past. However, the health care - IA tie-in is actually specious on at least two grounds.

The first is the public health consideration. Disease does not know your ID and will spread from undocs to citizens without regard for the Constitution.

The second incorporates the point that has been made about "free" ER care. But the cost of "free" ER care is borne, in part, by Medicaid. Undocs work, in TX, under "false" or "borrowed" SS documentation, typically the latter. They contribute to medicare, medicaid, and social security. My guess: they contribute more than they cost, or the SS Admin under the last five presidents would not have refused to report "shared" SS #s to INS.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | September 10, 2009 10:35 AM | Report abuse

Mark-in-Austin, Understood. Thanks for clearing that up.

Posted by: trep1 | September 10, 2009 10:32 AM | Report abuse

Oh goody we have a tenther on board. One of those geniuses whose gonna interpret the Constitution for us. Eyes roll.

Of course he never made a peep when Bush II gutted the Bill of Rights and flushed it down the toilet.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 10:29 AM | Report abuse

The Joe Wilsons of this world, smug as they are, are working with a partisan, mob mentality, or they are lost to the opposition party's fraternity highjinks of enjoying a grid-lock rather than any substantive improvement on healthcare. I propose that we threaten to take away the free health insurance of every member of Congress, starting immediately, unless all Americans can have what they have, and then let's see just how long they take to come up with a bill for ALL OF US AS GOOD AS THEIR COVEARAGE!!!!!!

Posted by: jbarish313 | September 10, 2009 10:26 AM | Report abuse

Republican rage all boils down to demographics I guess. White people
are losing their grip on the country
and it hurts. They want to lash out
so to speak (as they used to be able to do, viz Jim Crow and the end of Reconstruction; if you spend much time in say Savannah, people believe those were the good old days), but they don't have the numbers.

Frankly, I am really glad the military branches and law enforcement services are so well integrated in this country. Mao said all power flows from the barrel of a gun. These gun toting right wingers are no match for our uniformed services and they know it. Randy Weaver tried, an episode I remember fondly for its aftermath.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Has everyone forgotten the Constitution? Under what part of that document can the government force people to buy health insurance?

I'm sure someone will say: Well, they force us to get car insurance. Well, pilgrim, driving a car is a privilege, so to enjoy that privilege you have to buy insurance. Last I heard "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" is a right. And health insurance is intrinsically to protect your life. Clearly unconstitutional. If fines don't work what will Obama do? Confiscate your spleen?

Posted by: jack29 | September 10, 2009 10:22 AM | Report abuse

"Luckily that demographic is shrinking and dying."

Dying, maybe, but they aren't shrinking, at least individually, those necks get thicker every day.

So is the wax in their ears.

Posted by: JEP07 | September 10, 2009 10:19 AM | Report abuse

Regarding Click-It -- Chris Cilliza, I'm curious why you think any of us would be interested in a column by a Moonie reporter, from a propaganda rag run by a nut who thinks he's the incarnation of Jesus?

Sorry, outside the Beltway Bubble, we consider it a laughingstock.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 10:08 AM | Report abuse

shrink, the racist idiots are not stopped by facts. they are too hysterical.

This has become a party that caters to angry old red-faced, thicknecked, small brained, obnoxious crackers. Luckily that demographic is shrinking and dying.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 10:02 AM | Report abuse

Obama failed last night because he did not provide a significant amount of specifics in what his "plan" would do and be realistic about how it would affect the current system positively AND negatively. As for the "you lie" comment, this is only a continuation of the lack of respect started back in the 80's against Reagan, the first Bush, got worse with Clinton, and extremely distasteful against the second Bush. What do you expect? If the Democrats wanted civility, then they should have lead by example during the past eight years. Yes, the comment was rude, but it will not hurt the Republicans and this lack of respect has been made the standard of behavior by the Democrat party.

Posted by: bob1wilco | September 10, 2009 10:01 AM | Report abuse

Velo, the Democracts don't want a "Final Solution to the Republican Question." In fact, given the way most Republicans have been behaving (badly) lately the Dems are likely hoping that the publicly active fringes of the Republican party never go away. It only makes even the more loopy Dems (Dennis Kucinich, for example) look somewhat less nutty in comparison.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 10, 2009 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Analysis of "VetoStrummer" post, below:


The post adopts the familiar disinfo tactic of painting liberals/progressives as epithet-spewing, exaggerating polemicists...

...when, in fact, right-wing Republican zealots such as Rep. Joe Wilson more often display such ideologically-tinged venom.

The extreme right is expert at projecting its own negative attributes onto its political opposition -- such as the slander that Obama is a "fascist."

Those here who are "aware" must get some chuckles at the proposition that lame psy ops rarely, if ever, happens here.

Just one man's political opinion -- germane to the Joe Wilson contratemps.

http://nowpublic.com/world/govt-fusion-center-spying-pretext-harass-and-censor

Posted by: scrivener50 | September 10, 2009 9:59 AM | Report abuse

The President said: "If you misrepresent what is in this plan, we will call you out."

Joe Wilson did just that. No,it was not tactful in that environment, on that stage. But the President IS lying. Yes, the bill says that no illegals will receive health benefits under this plan. The trick is what the bill doesn't say, though. Republicans tried to pass an amendment that would allow for the exclusion of illegals to be verifiable. In other words, a person would have to PROVE their citizenship in order to receive benefits and/or subsidies. The amendment was voted down on party lines.

What does this mean? While they can SAY that illegals won't be covered, no one has to prove they are legal in the first place! With this loophole, illegals WILL receive coverage.

If the President is allowed to call people out regarding distortions of the truth, the people should have the same right.

Same goes for the abortion issue...factcheck.org has a whole article devoted to this topic, even though Democrats push the notion that abortions will not be covered....NOT TRUE.

Posted by: boosterprez | September 10, 2009 9:56 AM | Report abuse

All that concern for paying for "illegals" is so much hooey. They will continue to get their health care from firefighters (or "first responders") and in the nation's ERs and hospital beds, as they always have. Guess who pays? We have two "illegals" in our hospital now, I'll estimate the cost of their care at $1000. day, not including the Rx. They both came from local agricultural communities, of course.

Fact is, someone was making a tidy profit from their work before it came time for someone else to pay for their health care. If you don't want to add "illegals" to your Medicaid bill, just add the cost to your food bill.

Posted by: shrink2 | September 10, 2009 9:48 AM | Report abuse

oops-- dropped link.

Here's a site where you can contribute to Joe Wilson's opponent, Rob Miller.

Revenge is the best revenge.

http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19079

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 9:46 AM | Report abuse

Here's a site where you can contribute to Joe Wilson's opponent, Rob Miller.

Revenge is the best revenge.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 9:45 AM | Report abuse

Glad to see some new commentators. But Velo, although your anger is certainly understandable, we don't use eliminationist rhetoric here. We leave that to the dark side.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 9:34 AM | Report abuse

The plans working their way through Congress all specify in several places, and in very plan language, that illegal aliens cannot participate in the insurance programs. Congressman Wilson is the liar.

I'm really pleased that the Republicans have suddenly become concerned about how things get paid for. Tax cuts for the fabulously wealthy that add to the deficit? That’s OK. Chasing terrorists/establishing democracy/protecting oil interests/what evah in the Middle East costs a fortune? That’s wise. Medicare reform that lines the pockets of the Medical Industrial Complex with tax payer dollars. That’s cool. TARP money to save the financial industry from their own greed? As long as it’s approved by Bush then is good to go (but Obama is a Socialist). Lifting the foot of Health Insurers off the necks of US Citizens? Socialism!

As the President said, the GOP is more interested in scoring some short-term political points than it is in the hard work of rescuing our economy and making our country a better place to live. The GOP would rather smirk than WORK.

Posted by: margaretmeyers | September 10, 2009 9:22 AM | Report abuse

After watching the RepubliTURDS in action last night, the next piece of legislation that should be passed after Health Care Reform is the Final Solution to the Republican Question.

Posted by: VeloStrummer | September 10, 2009 9:12 AM | Report abuse

It's all about the racism, folks... but surprise! Accordig to Fact Check:

"The bill, HR 3200, would set up a health insurance "exchange," in which consumers could compare policies and choose a plan. It would create a government-run health plan to compete with private insurers in that exchange, and extend subsidies for coverage to people who aren't already covered by employers or federal programs like Medicare and Medicaid.

It specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving those subsidies. Section 246, which is included in the part of the bill that sets up the exchange, forbids payments "on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Of course a little thing like facts never stopped any winger hatefests.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 9:06 AM | Report abuse

>>Also, why would an undocumented immigrant sign up for the new health care plan when they can just go to the emergency room and get free health care without worrying about filling out any forms.

Have you even been to a hospital lately? Everyone gets processing forms insurance or no. The insurance form was the least hassling one.

And I love the idea that you can't be turned away from the ER for non payment. If you walk in you can and I've seen it done. If you're brought in critical condition, they can't but if you walk in I've seen several people told to find another hosiptal. None of them were 'immigrants' either.

The main reason I see not to require citizenry verification for treatment is that we still have a generation of Americans that may not have Birth Certifcates or other forms of legitimate documentation of citzenship. That and treating people like subhumans because they weren't born here is about as reprehensible as they come.

Actually this whole debate has shown me how Americans think of each other, and frankly it's not that pretty. Seeing people treat disease and sickness like commidities instead of afflictions turns my stomach. I'm pretty disgusted by the display of inhuman sensitivity to making sure people live.

Posted by: mtcooley | September 10, 2009 9:03 AM | Report abuse

Mike, these hysterical racist idiots would rather die themselves than see someone with brown skin get free health care.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Insuring 50 Million People without raising any taxes and without cutting Medicare and not adding one cent to the debt while improving healthcare for all. And this for all 3 easy payments of $19.99 plus shipping and handling. And if you order right now we will throw in free coverage for your illegal cousins who have not yet arrived in the country..

Obama the Pitchman

Posted by: dencal26 | September 10, 2009 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Thanks, Margaret! I will give him a call!

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Obama is clearly a great public speaker and will win the hearts and minds of ignorant sheep who fall for style and have no clue about substance.
You think Wilson helped you? Well what is actually happening is media is fact checking and reporting that there is no provision to prevent illegals from getting Obamacare.
Congressional Research Service: H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens—whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently—participating in the Exchange.

So lets have the Wilson debate. Congressman Wilson deserves the medal of freedom for exposing the lies of President Sham Wow.

Posted by: dencal26 | September 10, 2009 8:54 AM | Report abuse

READ THE ATTEMPTED 'FIX' COMMENT THAT APPARENTLY WAS CENSORED BY GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE FILTERING SOFTWARE...

...and please ask yourself, what are they trying to suppress...

...and how often is political speech being censored in America?

Scroll to the bottom of this ACLU "Freedom Blog" thread and read up:

http://blog.aclu.org/2009/01/26/internet-filters-voluntary-ok-not-government-mandate

Posted by: scrivener50 | September 10, 2009 8:49 AM | Report abuse

After Rush gets done with him today, you can expect Spineless Joe Wilson to apologize for apologizing for lying about Obama lying.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 8:49 AM | Report abuse

Rep Joe Wilson's office phone number is : 202-225-2452 (I'm just sayin')

Posted by: margaretmeyers | September 10, 2009 8:42 AM | Report abuse

REP. WILSON AND OTHER SIGN-WAVING ZEALOTS PURPOSELY 'DESENSITIZING' THE NATION FOR AN INCIPIENT COUP D'ETAT?

South Carolina Rep. Joe Wilson did more for the cause of health care reform for all than even President Obama's forceful advocacy for the concept.

But all of Obama's good intentions mean not a whit to the thousands of Americans being extrajudicially targeted and tortured by the U.S. government's stealth deployment of classified, silent and health degrading microwave and laser directed energy weapons...

...enabling crimes against humanity on a par with the atrocities of Nazi Germany.

When will Team Obama wake up and smell the "multi-agency coordinated action" American Gestapo police state -- and the incipient coup d'etat that it must put down before the rule of law and democracy itself becomes irretrievable?

http://nowpublic.com/world/gestapo-usa-govt-funded-vigilante-network-terrorizes-america
http://nowpublic.com/world/domestic-torture-radiation-weaponry-americas-horrific-shame

OR (if links are corrupted / disabled):

http://NowPublic.com/scrivener

Posted by: scrivener50 | September 10, 2009 8:41 AM | Report abuse

The reason you vote down the Heller Amendment is because it adds an unnecessary step to the bureaucracy of health care. If businesses oppose having to check every employee's resident status imagine if they had to check every customer's status. Most of the subsidies and entitlements in the bill have to do with your taxes and we know undocumented immigrants don't file taxes. Also, why would an undocumented immigrant sign up for the new health care plan when they can just go to the emergency room and get free health care without worrying about filling out any forms. Hospitals can't collect on a bills from people who don't have social security numbers or legal residences.

Posted by: johnnyspazm | September 10, 2009 8:30 AM | Report abuse

The proposed amendment to prevent undocumented aliens from getting emergency care would also prevent undocumented Americans from getting emergency care.

In other words, if they passed that amendment, every American had better keep their papers handy and hope they don't get lost while you're being rushed to the hospital. Just to be safe, maybe you should tattoo your SSN on your forehead.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 8:21 AM | Report abuse

I can understand if some of the public doesn't know how congress works, but it is inexcusable (and/or just playing to the cameras) for a congressman to shout "what bill?" or "what plan?"

If the bill were finalized, then the work would be done, and all that would be left is the vote and the signature. So of course at this stage, there no single bill, but the plan is certainly well established.

Posted by: mikeinmidland | September 10, 2009 8:16 AM | Report abuse

On the subject of illegal aliens getting health care because of the current health care reform effort...

The House's bill states that "undocumented aliens" will not be eligible for credits to help them buy health insurance (Section 246, page 143). Since these credits are the primary basis for extending health care to those currently uninsured, it would seem the bill does not give away free health care to illegal aliens unless there's some other section that contradicts this.

Also, Medicaid already requires proof of citizenship or legal residency.

Illegal aliens can, however, obtain Emergency Room care, as emergency care is mandated by law without restriction or reservation.

So, unless someone can quote chapter and verse specifically from any legislation currently under consideration in Congress, perhaps we can lay the "free health care for illegal aliens" myth to rest.

Posted by: Gallenod | September 10, 2009 8:02 AM | Report abuse

Last night's outbursts by some of the GOP members of the house put into clear perspective something that I have been feeling for a while, that the GOP has become a party with no class. Gone are the days of the great statesmen like Teddy Roosevelt, or the strong and serious leaders like Eisenhower or even Ford. People like Kissenger and James Baker are being replaced by Sarah Palin and Joe Wilson. Heck I would bet that even George W Bush was offended with the behavior of the GOP House members last night, I know his dad was.

I personally hope that the voters in SC throw Joe Wilson out of office next year. His behavior in that chamber last night was reprhensible.

Posted by: AndyR3 | September 10, 2009 7:57 AM | Report abuse

Joe Wilson is the face and voice of the R party today. Unfortunately for this country it is loud, rude and obnoxious.

Posted by: drindl | September 10, 2009 7:45 AM | Report abuse

is any of what obama said even in the bill...
after all there is no one bill, there are several in the house and I don't even think there is one in the senate yet...
so how can obama speak about a bill that does not exist...
is the senate and house expected to vote on a bill consisting of only an index but no particulars...

Posted by: DwightCollins | September 10, 2009 7:42 AM | Report abuse

Does anyone else have the overnight ratings? I would be shocked if more people watched this than his first address to Congress.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 7:37 AM | Report abuse

trep1, by "expression" I meant the idea expressed, not the phrase. The phrase is my description for convenience.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | September 10, 2009 7:34 AM | Report abuse

It was not US congressmen throwing shoes at bush. It was a Iraqi showing the real thoughts of Iraqis - their "gratitude" at what bush had done to them.

When you listen to the reposnses it is clear that republicons live in a differnt universe than the one here on earth. How can they be so completely disconnected from the real world? Maybe reading a book - and not a soft core porn by bill oreally, but a real book. Maybe tuning into the news instead of watching fux. Maybe reading a newspaper instead of the NYPost or the cult leader Moon's Washington Times. If we have to fix the nation without republicons then fine. If they want to be the tiny fringe minority party for the next half century, like they were from the 1930s through the 1990s then it is al for the good. If they want to looney themselves out of existence like the Know Nothings or the Whigs then even better. it would make way for a sane and prncipled party to emerge in their place and leave all the crazies to sit around and scream at each other in the trailer park.

Posted by: John1263 | September 10, 2009 7:33 AM | Report abuse

"Phony" criticism?! We KNOW that illegal aliens are driving up healthcare costs currently, so how could they not continue to do so when there's no enforcement mechanism to prevent it in this bill? Technically, pResident Obama did not lie about the final bill not adding "one dime" to the federal deficit -- but only because it will be much more than 10 cents -- the Congressional Budget Office has already projected (at least) $220 BILLION added to the deficit over the next 10 years if the Medicare adjustments in the House bill are signed into law. Do you really want to get into ALL of the lies and half-truths?

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 7:32 AM | Report abuse

trep1, medicare junior is the expression in the House Bill, wherein the SecHHS is given the same authority as under Medicare, with appropriate references to the existing medicare statute, to establish a public option.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | September 10, 2009 7:27 AM | Report abuse

Mark-in-Austin,
What is "medical junior"? I am missing something.
It was a good speech and should help Ds in Congress. As always, the devil is in the details. What the President and Congress need to do is put out the best bill that they can and say this is our plan. If Rs want to support it, great. If not, then do not be afraid to go it alone.

Posted by: trep1 | September 10, 2009 7:20 AM | Report abuse

Concentrating on the speech and not the policy:

I thought that most persons who watched it would have bought into the notion that they would not be "losers" in the deal. I thought he carved out a position of his own that politically should have galvanized conservative Ds and given him the votes he needs, if he, Rahm, and JB work the floor and he follows up on public responses to phony criticisms.

Do I think cost containment is on the table? Not yet, but I believe he knows it must be. Do I think a "medicare junior" will be part of the final bill? No.

His support of "medicare junior" reminded me of a prosecutor who tells a jury that the only suitable punishment is "death - or life in prison". The jury is off the hook. I cannot resist adding that I am heartened that medicare junior is effectively gone.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | September 10, 2009 7:01 AM | Report abuse

I thought that the GOP 5 minute response was better than Obama's 55 minute speech -- and we all know that illegal aliens will get healthcare under this plan BECAUSE a specific amendment to prevent that was denied -- so, yes, pResident Obama is lying. Bottom line, how many even watched last night and changed their minds? I doubt that many.

Speaking of Andy Card, how many libs when his speech got interrupted? Or, when shoes got thrown at GWB? Obama's still got a long way to go before his approval ratings hit rock bottom.

Posted by: JakeD | September 10, 2009 7:00 AM | Report abuse

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