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Obama and Clinton Allies Vigorously Debate Seating of Delegates

Advocates for Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton vigorously argued competing positions this morning as the Democratic Party's Rules and Bylaws Committee sought a compromise to seat disputed convention delegates from Florida and Michigan and take a major step toward ending the long and contentious battle for the Democratic presidential nomination.

There were strong indications of an emerging compromise over the seating of the Florida delegates, but the dispute over the Michigan delegates appeared far more problematic. Obama, now considered the prohibitive frontrunner, is just 42 delegates shy of the 2,026 he needs to lock up his party's nomination.

The 30-member Rules and Bylaws Committee resumed the hearings around 6:15 p.m. after being sequestered for three hours during an extended lunch break.

Speculation ran rampant that a deal was in the works but no one could confirm what the outlines of such a deal would be. It's clearly in the interest of the Democratic Party as well as Clinton (N.Y.) and Obama (Ill.) to hash out their differences on the seating of the Florida and Michigan delegations in private rather than engaging in a public debate being covered live by every national media outlet in the country.

Sources familiar with the ongoing deliberations say that the sticking point remains Michigan. Those same sources say that the members of the Rules and Bylaws Committee feel strongly about trying to wrap up a decision on both states today rather than let the fight linger through the summer and risk further risking the party's chances of winning one or both in the fall campaign.

The decision by the committee on how to best deal with the disputed Florida and Michigan delegates could be critical to the final outcome. The Democratic National Committee barred the two delegations from the national convention in Denver this summer because those states insisted on holding early primaries, in contravention of the party's rules.

Clinton, who trails Obama in pledged delegates and has faced calls for weeks to drop her candidacy, has argued that until the fate of Florida and Michigan are decided she will not even consider leaving the race.

Today, her surrogates -- state Sen. Althenia Joyner of Florida and former governor Jim Blanchard of Michigan -- stuck to Clinton's hard-line stance, insisting that anything short of full recognition of each states' delegates (as determined by the primary results) was unacceptable.

Compromise appeared possible on Florida, however, as Rep. Robert Wexler and Sen. Bill Nelson (Fla.), a Clinton backer though not speaking formally for his candidate in the meeting, voiced support for a proposal that would seat all 23 of Florida's superdelegates as well as half of the 185 pledged delgates.

Michigan is a tougher nut to crack as the debate is two tiered: first, should Michigan's primary count at all given that Obama's name was not even on the ballot and second, if Michigan's primary does count, how are the roughly 40 percent of voters who cast a ballot for "uncommitted" apportioned?

The late afternoon will be dominated by a debate among the 30 member Rules and Bylaws committee on these very questions.

Among the highlights of this morning's six-hour hearing:

* Harold Ickes, the combative, master of delegate rules for the Clinton campaign, showed his stuff. Ickes and Wexler, an Obama surrogate, shared a tense moment about the definition of "fair reflection" of the popular vote when it comes to delegate allocation. And Ickes regularly sought to make Clinton's argument during the question-and-answer portion of the morning's testimony.

* Don Fowler: Fowler is a legendary figure in the Democratic party and has emerged in this Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting as the stickler for the rules. Fowler, a genteel South Carolinian, has stood out for his adherence to the letter of the law. (Fowler is a Clinton supporter.)

* Wexler, the south Florida congressman, perked up the proceedings considerably during his testimony on behalf of the Obama campaign. Allies of Wexler will tout his passion and intensity; detractors his anger and tendency toward point-scoring. Either way, he spiced up a meeting that until that point had been dominated by debating the definition of the word "shall".

By Eric Pianin  |  May 31, 2008; 6:24 PM ET
 
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Next: Clinton Dealt a Setback in Florida

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Posted by: ultram prescription | June 6, 2008 2:30 PM | Report abuse

InSearchOfTruth: If democrats couldn't get a veto-overriding majority while Bush is in office, how the hell would they get one with a "moderate" McCain in office? Although I fear your moderate prediction has been somewhat destroyed by McCain pandering to the neocons and evangelicals during this campaign. I can only hope he's lying to get the election and will embrace his moderate views once elected.

In truth, this comment board reveals why Democrats lose so often. Too many democratic voters vote for the candidate rather than the issues. Very few members of the Republican base would say "I like Obama more than McCain, I'm going to voe for him." They might say, "McCains a liberal in disguise and doesnt agree with us any more than the democrats, so I'll stay home." Why do you think Kerry lost? He was a sub-par candidate against the unpopular but "regular guy" Bush. A good portion of independents and democrats voted for Bush only based on superficial observations of the candidates.

In this case, 2008, Obama (assuming he's the nominee) will be sunk by democats and independents voting for the candidate rather than the issues. It wont be overt racism, but seeing the two next to each other, white voters will have a natural tendency to trust McCain more. To be fair, the exact same thing would happen to Clinton, just not on a scale as large as Obama, since there are more women to identify with Clinton than their are blacks to identify with Obama.

Posted by: JackAth | June 1, 2008 1:59 PM | Report abuse

It's disgraceful how the Clinton supporters continue to bring up Obama's middle name. It shows the depths at which they will go in using whatever argument suites them, no matter how false or racist. The Clinton campaign appears to be more interested in destroying the Dems if she can't get the nomination. For shame.

Posted by: D Turkin | June 1, 2008 1:46 PM | Report abuse

I was deeply disgusted with the attitude of Hillary's sympathizers and the words of her spokesman H. Ickes in reaction to the loadable efforts and solution arrived at by the Democratic Party to keep from desenfranchizing voters of Florida and Michigan. While the Party, united, adopts a solution, Hillary's camp reacts in anger because even when they speak of Party unity, they can only see "the world according to Hillary". Their attitude and disgraceful demonstrations make believers in democracy blush!

Posted by: Postino | June 1, 2008 11:44 AM | Report abuse

This is a sad day... the day the democrats died. I am out of here. McCain is a moderate - not a neo-con like Bush. He feels safe. POW and all, there is no questioning his loyalties. Obama's loyalties are more than quesitonable when you examine his close associations (His wife, Rezco, Wright, Phleger, Ayers, Khalidi sp?... the list is too long now to go into) This is a disgrace and a national ragedy. Barack Hussein Obama is a risk that we cannot afford to take. 20 years in that horrid church? That isn't Christianity they are preaching in there - it comes from "someplace else." I am sorry - but 20 YEARS!!!!!!! That is creepier than words can say.

Posted by: Horace | June 1, 2008 8:26 AM | Report abuse

I don't know why the media isn't calling Hillary and her team out more strongly for their delusional position. Supporting stripping Michigan and Florida of their delegates and then changing their story. Arguing that the rules are undemocratic and comparing the situation to Zimbabwe is unbelievable. I wish people would call her on that and stop treating her position as something that should actually be debated and taken seriously.

Posted by: Andrew | June 1, 2008 1:57 AM | Report abuse

There will be no unity of the Democratic Party. Barack Obama will not be able to sweet talk his way in getting the votes of Clinton supporters!

We will cast our protest vote for McCain. At least McCain is more experienced. The good thing is that I believe the Democrats will have their filibuster-proof majority in Congress so a McCain presidency will be mild. If he nominates ultra conservative Supreme Court Justices, the Democrats will vote them down. If McCain vetoes progressive legislation, the Democrats will override his vetoes.

Vote McCain and let the DNC hear your protest LOUD AND CLEAR!

Posted by: InSearchOfTruth | May 31, 2008 10:52 PM | Report abuse

I hope Hillary runs as an independent, so that her supporters can wear themselves out explaining away her narcissism and I get the pleasure of voting against her twice.

Posted by: HSimon | May 31, 2008 10:42 PM | Report abuse

Thank you DNC for attempting a fair, balanced judgment based on the entirety of the situation. I expected no more or less for either candidate, without bias. I am appreciative of your efforts.

Posted by: Obama2008 | May 31, 2008 10:40 PM | Report abuse

How does Obama receive any delegates from Michigan???

Not to worry. He is changing his name to Barack Uncommitted. That will give him legal ownership of those votes. And the nominee. Pretty clever, huh?

Posted by: Bob | May 31, 2008 9:39 PM | Report abuse

The issue here isn't either candidate. The "rules" were not technically agreed to by either candidate, ergo Clinton isn't breaking them. She had several "fundraising" events in FL that doubled as campaign stops, but Obama also campaigned for the uncomitted vote in MI, he just did it from out of state.

The issue here is the the DNC foolishly imposed an over-the-top punisment for the states' violation of their primary timeline, then retracted it. There would be no issue if they had taken the Republican approach and given both states half votes from the beginning. Both would have counted, both candidates would have campaigned and been on the ballot, and no argument would be raised.

Currently, no delegates are being "taken away" from anyone. The DNC is awarding certain amounts of delegates to both candidates based on their interpretation of the nomination procedures. Since the DNC is a private organization, they can do whatever they want, unbound by constitutional guarantees of voting rights.

Another culprit is the state of New Hampshire. The MI primary was moved up because the NH primary was. For whatever reason, NH recieved a DNC waiver and MI did not. Following this, the NH Democratic Party officials put pressure on the candidates to remove their names from the ballot as an act of protests, using fundraising and support as leverage. Obama, who was at the time aiming to win IA and NH back to back, removed his name from the MI ballot in order to gain every advantage he could in a state that actually counted. Recall that, at the time, he was a longshot candidate behind by 30 points in every nationwide poll.

In the end, this decision actually moves Obama further from the nomination, and makes him more dependent on superdelegates rather than the pledged delegates. So God only knows why Obama supporters are cheering and Clinton supporters are booing. Either way this "compromise" will hurt Obama in the long run.

Anyway, following that objective analysis....McCain '08 :D

Posted by: JackAth | May 31, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

Does Clinton believe for one moment that the world will have any more respect for her than they had for Bush ??! We have enough of blustering presidents, not wanting to stick to rules and not considering others. "My way of the highway" does not work at all.
"Comical Hillary" as leader of the free world promises another 8 years of spin and the US sinking more and more, both as recognized and respected leaders and economically.
Anna from Switzerland

Posted by: anna | May 31, 2008 9:25 PM | Report abuse

Hillary had no intention of playing fair, otherwise she would have removed her name from the Michigan ballot.  At the time, she figured it would be a non issue as she would have won the nomination anyway.  Now she pulls these shenanigans and the DNC is baffled, how do we please everyone?The Dem's have had a grest opportunity to capture the White House and gain seats in the House and Senate thanks to the ineptness of the current administration.  About to blow it with this infighting.  I am a Republican that will vote Obama in November. If it is Clinton, I will have to take another look at McCain and distasteful as that will be. The Dem's need to bring this circus to an end, hopefully, get behind Obama and move forward.

Posted by: Noble Dog | May 31, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

After reading through these posts, I am amazed that we have a functioning democracy here in the United States. How could any rational person imagine that, at the cost of several Trillion dollars, and the lives of thousands of our best citizens, we could bestow democracy on a country so thoroughly steeped in it's historical dogmas? (Of course I'm giving President Bush the benefit of the doubt here, in truth, I don't believe he bothered to think about the question in even this much detail.)

The hysteria and character assassination by innuendo in these forums (on both sides of the argument) is a disgrace to the country which calls itself the world's greatest democracy.

Posted by: ted in pdx | May 31, 2008 9:00 PM | Report abuse

Message To Fellow Serving Citizens:

I'm voting to Bring You Home! I believe you have worked hard and brilliantly. You are brave. I believe you put your best efforts, and you have done a fine job. It's past time for you to come Home =) Nevermind this mess, there's many of us who are not distracted, and we will NOT forget our purpose behind this important election. God bless you.

To My Other Fellow Citizens:

I look Forward to joining in ranks with you to vote based on our common issues. After these past two consecutive terms, let the masses of our voices be heard. WE need to help get our country back and restore our stance with the rest of the world. After all of this is complete, after it is official that we have a nominee, Stand Ready and prepare to weather the storm. Stay steady and Pay Attention. Do not fall prey to distractions. Our country depends on it. Let us push it forward, in a different direction. God bless! '08

As for this article, I am appreciative of all efforts, without bias, to attempt to resolve this matter considering the entirety of the situation, as well as a great population of voters. I believe they did a good job today. Thank you. Now, I look forward to the remaining states to be heard. Lets do it!

Posted by: Obama2008 | May 31, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Has anyone consider what the Clintons are capable of just by looking at what's happening? If they can apply their creative mathematics and break the rules in something that is so public and open (and damned is the DNC allows this); imagine what they can do behind the secrecy of a presidency.

MI and FL Clinton supports say they will be upset if Clinton does win and the delegates doesn't seat...

Well, if MI and FL delegates are seat, imagine how the rest of USA feels.. and how the rest of the world will view us.

Posted by: WeC | May 31, 2008 8:53 PM | Report abuse

Hillary is the people's choice!

All thoughs smart people think they are so smart voting for Osama but Hillary is better and will win! Are rights need to be protected to! The one looking out for the regular people is Hillary and Bill! Get off your high horse and support Hillary!

Posted by: Hillbilly for Hill and Billy! | May 31, 2008 8:44 PM | Report abuse

I simply don't understand the willingness of anyone to simply ignore the fact that Senator Clinton formally agreed that the Michigan and Florida delegates would not count. Had those decisions been made by the DNC under her protest, I would have no problem with her tenaciously pursuing the position she has now taken. But she made the deal, she signed a letter agreeing to it. Why does that not matter to her? Why does it not matter to her supporters? How can these same voters condemn George Bush for lying to the American people about the necessity to go to war, while completely disregarding the lie Senator Clinton has made of her earlier agreement on the matter of Michigan and Florida?

What good is a democracy, if the parties to any debate disrespect the truth?

Posted by: ted in pdx | May 31, 2008 8:43 PM | Report abuse

Is Hillary Clinton really the one women want to represent them as "The First Female President"?

Posted by: JimBo | May 31, 2008 8:31 PM | Report abuse

We have to look at the bright side. I just realized that I saved a lot of money by not giving any to dems for the general election, so we can have a nice vacation.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 8:30 PM | Report abuse

Clinton's guy Ickes confessed, if we won it would be over, but now that we lost, we will make a fight over it at the convention.

Ickes just guaranteed that hosts of supers will support Obama, and Clinton is through as a national candidate.

She is only interested in herself, not in serving her country.

Posted by: bruce | May 31, 2008 8:28 PM | Report abuse

How can you rob Hillary's delegate and just handed them to Obama and still preach unity??

Posted by: No Unity what so ever | May 31, 2008 8:24 PM | Report abuse

My candidate didn't campaign in Florida - we were told the vote wouldn't count.

Now the Clinton campaign conveniently gets to claim that the votes of those folks who voted for a candidate along with the property amendment show she was preffered??!! (mostly older people - home owners).

Fair? Absolutely not and it ticks me off. But my candidate's camp has decided to be the grownup and say fine, you can count those votes and move on.

This just underscores for me even more why Obama is the right choice for November.

Posted by: Disenfranchised in florida | May 31, 2008 8:23 PM | Report abuse

Does Clinton believe for one moment that the world will have any more respect for her than they had for Bush ??! We have enough of blustering presidents, not wanting to stick to rules and not considering others. "My way of the highway" does not work at all.
"Comical Hillary" as leader of the free world promises another 8 years of spin and the US sinking more and more, both as recognized and respected leaders and economically.
Anna from Switzerland

Posted by: anna | May 31, 2008 8:23 PM | Report abuse

What a sham today's meeting is. The fair election in Florida was cut in half (15 members decided Florida citizen is only worth HALF a vote). Then They decided by themselves that ALL uncommitted belongs to Obama and robbed another 4 from Hillary. It was also cut in half. How can they do that in their good conscious?

Posted by: Democratic Party is a joke | May 31, 2008 8:17 PM | Report abuse

I think it's safe to say it's over. We have our Presidential Candidate even with the Ickes threat of going to The Credentials Committee. Asper Girl, please take a sedative and relax your fingers for a bit. I know many of you Hillary supporters are screaming you will vote for McCain. Do what you must, however if or when you do, then know your initial intent was never about voting for Hillary because you felt she was the better Democratic candidate, but because of some off color (no pun intended) reason you simply refused to vote for Barack no matter the reason. Let's rally together people for the sake of the 4000 men and women who have been killed in this bogus war. If we truly are Democrats then we owe it to them and to ourselves to vote for a better way...Democrats Now and Forever

Posted by: sdn | May 31, 2008 8:16 PM | Report abuse

I was proud of the Hillary supporters at the meeting today that were willing to compromise in spite of the fact they were disappointed. I feel that the compromise was very generous to the Clinton side, however, more so than to Obama. But still, they showed a concern for the fate of their country more than blind allegiance to their candidate, and in a dignified way.

On the other hand, no matter what Mr. Ickes' point of view, he showed no class at all to me, especially with his use of crude language in front of ladies and the general public. At the instruction of Hillary, he stated he would continue the fight longer, despite the obvious desire of most people, including Hillary supporters to begin unifying the party.

I used to have respect for the Clintons, but this man symbolizes for me why I have lost respect for them and the tactics that they have used in this primary contest. This is not an election where everybody always gets a vote, out here in the West we have rarely had a chance to vote in the primaries.

Do you want a another President who does not follow the rules? Isn't the Constitution a set of rules?

Posted by: connect the dots | May 31, 2008 8:13 PM | Report abuse

He is a Fake Fake Fake
Hope/Change bubble will burst soon.

I am out of here

Posted by: Harry Singh | May 31, 2008 8:12 PM | Report abuse

Shame on the DNC. They just awarded all "uncommitted" in MI to Obama and robbed another 4 delegates from Clinton and gave them to Obama.

What a party. I am switching to republican.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 8:12 PM | Report abuse

They've voted and the vote totals for Obama for Michigan give him the write in vote based on ecit polls, becuase they do not count write in votes of undeclared candidates in Michigan they therefore do not know what people wrote in, so they are giving Obama the write in votes based on "EXIT POLLS" . This portion of the Obama delegation will be awarded without an actual vote being cast. "TERRIBLY UNFAIR" Obama will also get what everyone thought he would get "undecided". The news and the media may not tell you this. The democrats only mentioned it once but when it came time for a vote they only said give Obama half but they did not revisit how they came to giving hime the number of delegates. http://blackhippychick.wordpress.com

Posted by: Lunnette | May 31, 2008 8:00 PM | Report abuse

hOW CAN THE dnc BE in cHARGE OF ANYTHING IF THEY CANNOT FOLLOW THERE OWN RULES. tHEY NEED TO BE INVESTIGATED.

Posted by: Jasmine | May 31, 2008 7:55 PM | Report abuse

I cannot help but ask those who so vigorously rally behind Sen. Clinton's flag in support of seating MI and FL's delegations: have you taken the time to consider the remarkable evolution of her position on the issue?

It began in 2007 with Clinton saying, specifically concerning MI, that the primary contest held in January would not count.

Then, shortly before winning in FL, she made a point of saying that she would work to seat FL's delegates.

After Super Tuesday, it then became a key part of her election platform to urge a re-vote in both states.

Following the collapse of the re-vote process in MI and FL, it became a push to seat delegates based on the January primaries, but allow some or all of the uncommitted MI delegates to pledge to Obama.

Today, it's "seat all the delegates from both states, with full votes." Oh, and by the way, "NOTHING FOR OBAMA IN MI!!!"

Anyone else notice that the Clinton campaign's level of indignation over FL and MI is inversely proportional to their lead in the polls and directly proportional to their deficit in delegates?

Posted by: JamesCH | May 31, 2008 7:50 PM | Report abuse

My God, even after all we saw today in the DNC meeting about FL and MI, there are still people here fighting against each other about those votes, when we all know what happened and why we are in this mess.

I'm not interested in talking more about Hillary cause all this mess is her entire fault, I just want us to calm down, breath strongly, think, and recognize that this election isn't about Barack, or Hillary or McBush, my God we are Americans, then we are democrats before being Obama or Clinton supporters, this country belongs to all of us, we need to work together to help the poorest among us.

I can't even imagine how the republicans are making fool of us, how they're happy about all the mess we're in because of our selfish interest.

I never saw any Romney supporter or Huckabee supporter or Ron Paul supporter threatening to vote democrat because their candidate hadn't won the nomination, who are we to threaten each other like that and put our country and jeopardy with a McBus presidency ? Do we really want to put our country in deeper troubles ?

The American people are counting on us, they won't afford a Bush clone for 4 more years, even some moderate republicans plan to vote democrat this fall, so who are we to kill our country by voting for McBush ? Please, calm down and exercise your judgment, the stakes are too high this year, please...

God may you help us please.

Posted by: David | May 31, 2008 7:48 PM | Report abuse

Aspergirl, nothing personal but I think you need serious psychiatric treatment, and thats a fact. Danielle, I cant fathom the rationale myself, but I guess that's life. You lie, you win! Stay on the straight and narrow, you go to blazes.

Posted by: cryingoverspiltmilk | May 31, 2008 7:43 PM | Report abuse

R&B committee votes on first motion.

Motion to seat 100 percent of delegates from Florida:

(No discussion)

12 votes in favor
15 votes opposed

(The motion failed)

Chants of "Denver" broke out. Now there is an issue to take to the convention...

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 7:42 PM | Report abuse

To hell with Clinton MI and FL whiners!

I havent gotten to EVER VOTE IN A PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY for the candidate I wanted cuz my state (OR) is sooo far behind most. We never cried disenfranchisement. WE WANT OUR VOTES COUNTED FROM MANY YEARS AGO TOO!!!

frikin babies!

Posted by: taihunter | May 31, 2008 7:39 PM | Report abuse

"For 20 years Obama belonged to Trinity Church. Do you think he doesn't know that Rev. Wright posted the Hamas Terrorist Manifesto on its website and compared it to the American Declaration of Independence?"

What? Free speech doesn't exist in your USA?

Another head scratcher: how the heck can you call TBC "xenophobic"? Was Wright preaching irrational hatred of foreigners?

Posted by: Mason | May 31, 2008 7:37 PM | Report abuse

Hillary's devious behavior as to MI and FL shows what a lying, dishonest and awful president she would be. As bad as Bush.


.

Posted by: BlueDem | May 31, 2008 7:33 PM | Report abuse

@Aspergirl

Wky not join the Hitler Youth with your pure propaganda lying hatred. Their is not a decent blood cell in your backwards, hateful, red-neck radio listening body. I can't laugh at you any harder than if I was high off of the best dope ever created and was at the same time listening to Richard Pryor, George Carlin, the Three Stooges and Joan Rivers combined!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA is the soundtrack of your life!!!!

Posted by: mackmusic78 | May 31, 2008 7:28 PM | Report abuse

"You don't like Arabs or Africans."

That's a simplistic reading of my post.

I don't like Arabic-African-Americans who belong to racist, anti-American, anti-white, xenophobic, conspiracy-theorist, terrorist sympathizing, Islamic terrorist-advocating Churches in which politics of personal attack are pitched by hate speech artists every week.

For 20 years Obama belonged to Trinity Church. Do you think he doesn't know that Rev. Wright posted the Hamas Terrorist Manifesto on its website and compared it to the American Declaration of Independence?

Why is everyone so eager to nominate someone who belongs to a politically aggressive racist organization for the office of President?

How could such a man win the general election? Except by some conspiracy of silence of the mainstream media, where his "historical fiction" autobiography is pushed as fact and the uncomfortable things about him are ignored?

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 7:27 PM | Report abuse

Hillary agreed to the Michigan and Florida sanctions rules because she thought she would be crowned. Instead, she has lost, won't admit it and demands that the rules now be changed in her favor. What is fair about that, especially in Michigan (as well as Florida) where Barack Obama was not even on the ballot. Watching those hysterical now-menopausal bra burners demonstrate in the streets is really some spectacle. Braless young women look bad enough, but the old ones who sag look dreadful. Nevertheless, they are hysterical. Well, Hillary, when you don't get what you want this time, feel free to hop out into the street and burn yours too. Then, please promptly fade into the obscurity you and Bill so richly deserve.

Posted by: David S. Robins | May 31, 2008 7:26 PM | Report abuse

"Just because you care about Obama's father's religion and ethnicity does not mean there are many others out there as insane as you. You have entered the lunatic zone."

This is time for someone to stop sitting on the public knowledge of what this candidate is and who he has been associating with.

There is no reason for him to have been so intimately associated with Trinity Church, or even attended it, for 20 years, unless he was into what it was preaching.

Why is it okay to be subjected to endless, rambling editorials that parse Clinton's comments for every lunatic implication that can be read into its vague language, looking for hints of dark desire for Obama to be assassinated, while Obama's lunatic, conspiracy-minded, terrorist sympathizing and hateful active associations are ignored?

The press has been ignoring Obama's Islamist sympathies and his associations with people who have terrorist-sympathizing, hate-mongering and racist focus go back for 20 years.

It's not bad taste to ramble on about implications projected into bland historical references about RFK that Clinton made, devoting column space in national media outlets to it.

But we aren't allowed to say that Obama is more Arabic African than Black African, that he was born Muslim and that he belonged to a racist, Afrocentrist, terrorist-sympathizing church for 20 years with ties to Islamic leaders at home and abroad?

Why? What white Presidential candidate would have gotten away with having such a bad set of active associations, that one would consider mentally ill and hateful, over an entire adulthood of political activism, and not have it be open to public discussion?

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 7:20 PM | Report abuse

ANTONE WHO SAYS THAT THEY WILL "OBLITERATE" MILLIONS OF THEIR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS DOES NOT DESERVE TO HAVE ANY POSITION OF POWER. PLEASE NVER ALLOW ANY OF THE CLINTONS TO BE WITHIN A HAIR'S BREATH OF A POSITION OF POWER; THIS FAMILY HAVE SHOWN THEIR TRUE COLOURS AND IT ISN;T PRETTY.
THIS WHOLE NASTY NAME-CALLING AND LIES STARTED WITH THE CLINTONS AND OBAMA HAS NEVER STOOPED TO THEIR GUTTER LEVEL.

Posted by: Patricia | May 31, 2008 7:20 PM | Report abuse

nytimes says that they have done a deal for Florida which nets Hillary +19 delegates.


Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 7:19 PM | Report abuse

How about if we lock Aspergirl and JakeD in a room together. Cage match!

P.S. The children of polygamous marriages are not b......ds.

BB

Posted by: Fairlington Blade | May 31, 2008 7:18 PM | Report abuse

Both Hillary and Obama agreed early on with the DNC that votes in Michigan and Florida would not be counted. Hillary probably thought at the time she would not be needing them, her coronation would have been a done deal before that. But then Obama started to win and win and win some more. Oh my God, those Michigan and Florida votes, she could use those. The rule was set before the game was played, but now that Hillary has lost, she wants the rules changed. I am a Michigan voter, and would like to see a woman president some day -- just not this woman.

Posted by: Gwynn, MI | May 31, 2008 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Let's imagine just for a second that Hillary pulls off this Mi/Fl coup and by another miracle, wins the Democratic nomination.

Outside of her die-hard supporters, who would vote for her this fall? I mean in contrast to Hillary supporters I have yet to hear of an Obama fan swearing to vote McCain or stay home if Clinton is nominated, but I bet just that would be the outcome. Then there's John McCain, who will certainly quote Hillary's repulsive MI/FL flip-flopping, (among a decade of other stupid and selfish Hillary decisions), and obliterate her with it on the campaign trail.

Fact is, McCain has always been the least polarizing Republican and Hillary the most polarizing Democrat. That alone took a sure Democratic victory this fall and put in serious jepoardy. But if Hillary tricks her way into the nomination at this point, she and the Democratic party will have lost so much credibility with the American people that McCain will be a sure win in November.

Bottom line is, even if she wins, she cannot win!

Posted by: Mark, Stuttgart | May 31, 2008 7:15 PM | Report abuse

1. Michigan cooked up its stew in direct defiance of the rules -- the state party should eat it. Rewarding Carl Levin is, well, asking for more defiance.

2. Getting what comes to you for defying the rules is the height of fairness. Michigan voters knew exactly what was happening here because we have endured this fight for years.

3. The center of the dispute is the registration requirement that neither Democrats nor Republicans in the State Legislature can abide voting for -- we prefer it imposed on us and so here we are today.

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/michigan-36-obama-gets-18.html

Posted by: Marlette | May 31, 2008 7:14 PM | Report abuse

Obama the great Uniter might become the next president, but he ruined the party for years. I just don't see how people who hate each other this much will unite in the foreseeable future.

The only positive(?) that came out of it, now we know what is going on in the black churches. No white, Latino or whatever other church/organization would allow so much open racial hatred.
We definitely have to do something about it. Even if today's population would be descendant of the slave owners (which 99% of us is not) it would be abominable.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 7:13 PM | Report abuse

To all those Obama supporters who call Clinton a bit**, Obama is a bastard.

Obama's Kenyan father was still married to his first wife, who was Kenyan and with whom he had his first child, when Obama's father came to the states and met and married Obama's mother. After leaving the United States and returning to his Kenyan wife, Obama's father had two more children by her.

It's legal in Muslim societies for Obama's father to have had multiple wives. But here in the United States Barack senior's marriage to Obama's mother, Anne Dunham, wasn't legal as polygamy is illegal in all 50 (not 57!) states.

The marriage between Obama's polygamist father and his mother was unlawful and Obama was illegitimate.

So you Obama supporters, who are so sexist and verbally abusive, before you call Clinton a bit** and trash, why don't you think about what labels apply to your own candidate? The man you propose to elevate to President of the United States?

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 7:12 PM | Report abuse

I'm confused. If Hillary were as good as she, Bill, and her fervent supporters claim, wouldn't she be ahead in delegates?

When we lay out rules for states and delegates that all candidates originally agreed with, shouldn't we follow those rules?

Is this divisive, mind-bending, rule-changing, magical math making person really the one that women want to represent them as the "First Female President"?

Posted by: JimBo | May 31, 2008 7:10 PM | Report abuse

They're getting ready to announce the compromise.

Posted by: Just sayin' | May 31, 2008 7:06 PM | Report abuse

Yes, free speech is alive and well. But notice how quickly it is squelched when Obama is criticized.....

Obama is welcome to belong to a church with terrorist ties. He just can't be president with those views. That is the two edged sword of free speech. Now that he is, on the surface, resigning, it speaks volumes to his lack of judgment. Couple that to the racist rants of the semi-lovely Mz Obama and you have a pair of malcontent goofballs. Represent a racist constituency in Illinois? Fine. The left has no problem with racists - whether they are black and from Illinois or white and from W Virginia. But represent the country> Never. Full stop, Never.

Obama is going to see a voter backlash against his, his wife and his "spiritual" budddies like only McGovern could imagine. Yes, he will do well with idiot far left morons. America will soundly reject him.

Posted by: anon | May 31, 2008 7:06 PM | Report abuse

Dear AsperGirl:

Just because you care about Obama's father's religion and ethnicity does not mean there are many others out there as insane as you. You have entered the lunatic zone. Good luck.

Posted by: insanity | May 31, 2008 7:02 PM | Report abuse

Coin toss time.

It's a big decision, so use a Susan B. Anthony dollar.

Posted by: Tom J | May 31, 2008 7:01 PM | Report abuse

To: BEV9603

I believe Hillary getting nominated should be reason enough to emigrate to Canada.

How can states that defied party rules which resulted in Obama voters not getting equal opportunity and encouragement to vote be counted in favour of Hillary?

Posted by: Indian Indian | May 31, 2008 6:59 PM | Report abuse

To: AsperGirl

You don't like Arabs or Africans. We get it. No need to take up more space.

Posted by: Just sayin' | May 31, 2008 6:57 PM | Report abuse

"There's nothing strange in what is happening. Except that the Obama supporters are programmed to froth at the mouth and spout outrage over some imagined Rules that the Clinton campaign is breaking by trying to seat her delegates when she is following the process as laid out by DNC tradition and procedures."

She's not trying to break the rules. She's trying to change them in her favor.

Posted by: DDAWD | May 31, 2008 6:56 PM | Report abuse

http://startelegram.typepad.com/politex/2008/05/local-d...

HILLARY TRIES TO DISENFRANCHISE TEXAS VOTERS

MAY 29, 2008

Area Democrats may be uninvited to state convention

It was a localized version of the Michigan/Florida debate in Grand Prairie today and once again, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama supporters were at odds.

Local Clinton supporters advocated Thursday for unseating ALL of the Democratic delegates from Collin County because their senate district conventions were held on the wrong day.

Officials with the Collin County Democratic Party said they chose to hold the convention a day late because there wasn't a large enough venue in the county available for the scheduled date of Saturday, March 29. Party officials warned at the time that the eligibility of their delegation may be challenged.

A state credentials committee for the Texas Democratic Party was in Grand Prairie holding hearings on over 100 challenges to North Texas delegates who were elected to attend next week's state Democratic convention in Austin.

Posted by: BlueDem | May 31, 2008 6:56 PM | Report abuse

to: NEVER GIVE UP HILLARY

is is tragic and pathetic that you think your quote is related to voting in primaries for your party

but then again, your a democrat, right ?

Posted by: Laughing at the Dems | May 31, 2008 6:54 PM | Report abuse

I think the dems should pull out NOW. It is a quagmire, I tell you. The hate filled rhetoric, the stealing of votes - that should be saved for the general election.

They are squandering assets - wasting lies. All of this will come back to bite them in November. Clearly there is no clear path to victory. Dean may announce mission accomplished - but there is much fighting still ahead.

The agony.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 6:53 PM | Report abuse

Ickes is disgusting.

Posted by: Prof. Woland | May 31, 2008 6:52 PM | Report abuse

As a Florida Democrat (and Obama supporter) I wish to point out that the outcome of the Florida primary isn't really a fair reflection of the electorate. While I suspect that Senator Clinton would have won under any scenario, it would have been much closer had the election "counted".

Many don't realize that the only other issue of substance on the ballot was one regarding property taxes in our state. Those who are not property owners (in many cases the younger demographic that has solidly supported Senator Obama) really felt that they did not have a dog in the fight. Since we were told that our votes for the presidential candidates wouldn't count anyway, there really wasn't much reason to show up.

It is simply not possible to assign any meaningful interpretation to the votes in either state. The compromise of one-half vote per delegate, with Florida calculated based on the vote in the primary and Michigan calculated based on the "undecideds" going to Senator Obama seems quite fair. Given Senator Clinton's earlier position regarding the "rules" I simply don't understand how she can justify the position argued by her surrogates today.

Posted by: Ed in Florida | May 31, 2008 6:52 PM | Report abuse

Hillary's devious behavior as to MI and FL shows what a lying, dishonest and awful president she would be. As bad as Bush.

Posted by: BlueDem | May 31, 2008 6:49 PM | Report abuse

OBAMA THE CANDIDATE:
ARAB-AFRICAN-AMERICAN CANDIDATE, MUSLIM BY BIRTH,
RACIST AFROCENTRIC CHRISTIAN CHURCH MEMBER BY CHOICE

Not long ago Obama claimed that he'd visited 57 states and got a lot of ribbing from the press because the U.S. has 50 states in it, not 57. But even if Obama was tired from campaigning all day, and made a simple slip of the tongue, 57 is an odd number to confuse with 50. Now what Union has 57 states in it? The Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) is an international organization with a permanent delegation to the United Nations. It has 57 Islamic member states, from the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia, Caucasus, Balkan, Southeast Asia, South Asia and South America.

WHO IS OBAMA?

Obama's father is identified as Arabic in his birth records, not "African negro". That's because his father's Luo tribe has a lot of Arabic blood in it and Obama's father was supposedly more than 50% Arab by Luo tribal heritage lines. According to his Kenyan records, Obama's father was 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab. So Obama's actually, technically, Arab-American with a minority amount of African Negro racial heritage. He is mainly of whatever his mother was, and then after that he's mostly Arabic and then after that African negro by a small amount.

Also, according to Muslim religious and cultural traditions, Obama's a Muslim because his father was Muslim and the religion in that culture is inherited from the father, like Jewish people inherit their heritage via the mother. So according to Muslim traditions, Obama is a Muslim who was born a Muslim but has avowed Christianity. There was even a NY Times article -- "Frank Talk About Obama and Islam" -- about that in March, suggesting that the Muslim world would hate Obama for being "apostate", which is punishable by death. But Muslim scholars apply the description "apostate" to an adult conversion from Islam to another religion. Since Obama was never raised in Islam, they would excuse his failure to practice as indoctrination by his culture from birth. So they would view him as a Muslim by birth raised away from his faith not as a matter of his choice. It does not appear that Obama is hated for not practicing Islam, since he's widely admired in Islamic societies who are rooting for him to win the election.

So if you want to know who Obama is ethnically, you don't need his records (that would just attest to what cultural definitions he chooses to go by). Technically, he's a mixture of Arabic and Caucasian with some black African thrown in. And according to Muslims he'd be a non-practicing Muslim born into another culture and raised outside the Islamic faith by his family's choice, not his.

WHAT DOES HE BELIEVE IN?

It's hard to say what identity he ultimately identifies with, because his autobiography is admittedly "historical fiction" with "composite characters". He has surrounded himself with activist people who seem to identify with Arab Muslims, Africans, American Muslims and African Americans as a combined political/religious/social activist philosophy and lifestyle. For example, the Trinity Church newsletter had Hamas-supportive material in it and there seem to be close ties between American Nation of Islam leadership and Trinity Church Christian leadership. The Christianity at Trinity Church seems to be as racist, radical, militant and paranoid as any other religion that doesn't have "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek" as precepts. Obama has been endorsed by both Nation of Islam and Hamas and has advocated a controversial and technically confused new diplomacy "doctrine" of talking with Iran without apparent agenda or preconditions, with the "doctrine" essentially comprised of just getting together for a rap session.

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 6:49 PM | Report abuse

NEWS FLASH: OBAMA RESIGNING FROM HIS RACIST, AFROCENTRIC CHURCH

Apparently, after having been a member of this church for 20 years, Obama is just now realizing what it's like.

Like Rev. Wright wasn't acting like the man he knew for 20 years after Rev. Wright aped it up before the National Press Club, Trinity Church is apparently not the Church Obama thought he attended for 20 years.

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 6:48 PM | Report abuse

I cannot help but ask those who so vigorously rally behind Sen. Clinton's flag in support of seating MI and FL's delegations: have you taken the time to consider the remarkable evolution of her position on the issue?

It began in 2007 with Clinton saying, specifically concerning MI, that the primary contest held in January would not count.

Then, shortly before winning in FL, she made a point of saying that she would work to seat FL's delegates.

After Super Tuesday, it then became a key part of her election platform to urge a re-vote in both states.

Following the collapse of the re-vote process in MI and FL, it became a push to seat delegates based on the January primaries, but allow some or all of the uncommitted MI delegates to pledge to Obama.

Today, it's "seat all the delegates from both states, with full votes." Oh, and by the way, "NOTHING FOR OBAMA IN MI!!!"

Anyone else notice that the Clinton campaign's level of indignation over FL and MI is inversely proportional to their lead in the polls and directly proportional to their deficit in delegates?

Posted by: JamesCH | May 31, 2008 6:47 PM | Report abuse

remember Hillary's "popular vote" count disenfranchises everyone in every caucus state--she doesn't count them because she finds their votes to be an inconvenient truth. her dislike of disenfranchisement does not apply to them.

she also disenfranchises everyone in Michigan who favors Obama. she also disenfranchises everyone in Michigan and Florida who didn't vote because everyone, including Hillary, told them that their votes would not count.

so goes fairness . . . .

Posted by: pop vote? | May 31, 2008 6:45 PM | Report abuse

FL and MI flouted party rules despite knowing them well in advance followed by repeated warnings. Obama simply adhered to the party rules. Hillary is on record acknowledging that FL and MI will not count. Therefore, is it fair on her part to be indulging in apparently devilish attempts now to change the goal posts when Obama is so close to the finish line?

Posted by: Indian Indian | May 31, 2008 6:43 PM | Report abuse

Does anyone know what it takes to emigrate to Canada??!!

Posted by: BEV9603 | May 31, 2008 6:43 PM | Report abuse


12 members have voted for seating Florida in FULL and 15 idiots have voted against it.

We will not forget those who screwed the people of Florida.

Posted by: We won't forget | May 31, 2008 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Why is the WP hiding Obama?

You never see an article directly about the Sacred Obama!

Come out! Come out, wherever you are, Obumbler!

Posted by: DaTourist | May 31, 2008 6:37 PM | Report abuse

@Aspergirl

Wky not join the Hitler Youth with your pure propaganda lying hatred. Their is not a decent blood cell in your backwards, hateful, red-neck radio listening body. I can't laugh at you any harder than if I was high off of the best dope ever created and was at the same time listening to Richard Pryor, George Carlin, the Three Stooges and Joan Rivers combined!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA is the soundtrack of your life!!!!

Posted by: mackmusic78 | May 31, 2008 6:36 PM | Report abuse

Will someone PLEASE acknowledge the obvious, at least with respect to the Michigan pseudo-primary. If this is in fact a "voting rights" issue, the argument undercuts Clinton's claim to seat delegates as they were "chosen." The "event" that was held to select delegates offered no unambiguous way for Obama supporters to register their preferences, as he was not on the ballot, and allowed Clinton supporters ALONE a way to express theirs. In a 2-person race, as this nomination has become, Obama voters in Michigan will have been disenfranchised if the results of this circus primary are allowed to stand. The numbers that Ickes cites are no more indicative of voter preferences than an accounting of body temperatures (by means of "non-oral" thermometers) would have been if such were measured on that day. And if Clinton tries to pull out those numbers and wipe off the stain of a so-called victory in Michigan, it will smell just as bad.

Democrats, please, let's not descend to the level of Bush politics just to defeat the Republicans!

Posted by: Tom | May 31, 2008 6:35 PM | Report abuse

The votes should not count. That is what every canidate agreed to do from the beginning - Clinton's signature bound to that agreement. Now she wants to rescind on her agreement - it foreshadows what her presidancy would be like - Bill Part 2, rescinding on campaign promises like NAFTA.

I have a hard time believing what she says and so will the general public in the fall. Obama '08

Posted by: Bill | May 31, 2008 6:35 PM | Report abuse

I see there are others that wonder where and why their posts have gone.When a poster can tell someone to go F*** yourself I think Wa Po should stop the posters.There is NO excuse for letting that pass.

Posted by: ggranny21 | May 31, 2008 6:33 PM | Report abuse

to: AsperGirl

your memory is incorrect. obama supporters suggested that superdelegates follow the elected delegates, not the popular vote. the whole process is founded upon elected delegates. further, it had nothing to do with rules, it was a suggestion.

Posted by: remember the facts | May 31, 2008 6:32 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps I was being too generous, Aspergirl.

As someone who has watched CNN & MSNBC each primary night, I can say confidently that Dean made almost no appearances on either network, good or bad.

If anything, this election cycle has provided Americans with a glimpse of a far larger number of Obama and Clinton surrogates. The only DNC people to get lots of face time are Terry and Donna, and Terry obviously so because he's working for HRC.

Given the record primary turnout for *Every* state, it's clear the Democrats must be doing something right. Combine that with an increase in voter registration and it appears the DNC is certainly on track to have quite a fall. All the hand-wringing about the "damage to the party" seems silly, in retrospect.

Posted by: district | May 31, 2008 6:31 PM | Report abuse

To Sarah who is angry at Obama for removing his name off the ballot of Michigan primary. The Democratic party penalyzed Michigan and Florida for holding their Primaries too early . It was not Sanator Obamas decision but Party officials. All candidates except for Hillary removed their names from Michigan Primary. So Senator Obama has absolutely nothing to do with that. Furthermore he has repeatedly said that the delegates from Michigan and Florida should be seated although not the way Hillary wants them which is all of them for Hillary and nothing for Obama.

Posted by: Jane Thomson | May 31, 2008 6:30 PM | Report abuse

Hartina Flournoy is an idiot and a demagogue.

Posted by: Prof. Woland | May 31, 2008 6:30 PM | Report abuse

"The Clinton campaign argument that "all votes should be counted" and likening following the DNC rules and punishing MI & FL to Jim Crow Laws, is a stinking pile of manure fully worthy of the Clinton "brand"."

Uh, that was Obama's argument -- let the superdelegates go with the candidate who has the most popular votes -- before Clinton pulled ahead in the popular vote. Remember, "we can't let superdelegates overturn the will of the people", "respect the voice of the voter" etc.

Now that he doesn't have the popular vote lead, he's all about rules, rules, rules. Rules are more important than anything else in the election process.

The rhetoric just fits whatever benefits Obama that week. And the frothing-mouth Obama supporters furiously peddle whatever the rhetoric du jour is without memory of what it was last week.

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 6:29 PM | Report abuse

As a foreign student studying in the US, I feel that this full-out brawl between the factions of the same party is absolutely disgusting.

Why is this battle so drawn out? Because neither side addresses the issues that are posed by the other side. Both sides are just screaming their thoughts into the wind with no regard to what the other side is screaming; what emerges is absolute chaos. How can Americans, usually so rational, fail to see that?

Hillary supporters need to address the points offered by Obama supporters: why did Hillary not object to the disenfrachising voters earlier? How can we trust Hillary if she is so willing to break the rules that were set before the game is played? Why is Obama's compromise on the votes of FL and MI not acceptable?

Obama supporters need to address: is Hillary more electable? How do you deal with the fact that she got more votes than Obama in FL and MI? How can we just ignore what the people in these states want based on what the "authorities" did?

Both sides need to start looking from the other side's perspectives in order to reach a compromise. Selfish and petty interests need to be rejected for the greater good. Avoid building a cult of personality around the candidate you support. Remember, YOU ARE DEMOCRATS, NOT REPUBLICANS!!

Posted by: David | May 31, 2008 6:26 PM | Report abuse

Carlos Quintana said: "I honestly don't get it. These two states violated the rules and everyone agreed on the sanctions. Now that Clinton needs those numbers the punishment is unfair? This is plain old dirty politics. For the good of the DNC and the reputation of the Democratic party the sanctions should stay in place."

I'm a Florida resident, and I agree with this. The rules are being changed, and the people who took the Party at its word that the primary didn't count are being punished for not voting or switching to another party so their voice would be heard.

Both primaries were flawed.

Posted by: Judy | May 31, 2008 6:26 PM | Report abuse

Sad to see Hillary desparation for power. It is Clintons assuming that they are kings and queens. Now they claim Chelsea can run. BS.. get lost family. You lost all my respect and a huge number of former clintonites. You make this democracy like stupid Britain monarchy. This is ridiculous..

Posted by: Dev | May 31, 2008 6:26 PM | Report abuse

Aspergirl, you have some good points, but saying that Iowa chooses fringe candidates like Obama *and Howard Dean* is completely false.

Dean obviously didn't win Iowa, (I was in the ballroom when The Scream took place) and his loss there eliminated him from contention.

Having said that, I think that Iowa *and* NH do have far too much influence. But if the DNC properly applies the rules, then next year, when enough people decide that Iowa and NH don't get to be first anymore, if Iowa and NH push their primaries up in response, the DNC will be in a position to punish them.

Posted by: district | May 31, 2008 6:25 PM | Report abuse

I read yesterday in a Townhall article that there are 57 states in the Organization of Islamic States. If this is true it speaks volumes for the candidate of change.

Posted by: Jumper | May 31, 2008 6:24 PM | Report abuse

"This dilemma with Florida and Michigan shows how bad the DNC leadership is. That would be Howard Dean. If he had not spent so much energy making brilliant statements like "I hate Republicans", he might had avoided looking like an incompetent chairman. It's hard to believe this guy is an MD."

I'm wondering which is worse -- Howard Dean or a yeast infection. Dean is like an uncomfortable itch that won't go away, and is a maddening embarrassment.

How could he turn yet another Primary season into a spectacle about his spastic personality.

Posted by: AperGirl | May 31, 2008 6:23 PM | Report abuse

I am for Obama, but if he lost to Clinton in the primaries, I'd vote for her over McCain... because I support the Democratic party! These Clinton supporters who complain about Obama and are willing to vote for McCain instead are lame.

Posted by: Lawrence | May 31, 2008 6:23 PM | Report abuse

It is really amazing that people don't bother to research information in order to voice their arguments. The people posting here have access to computers. I would suggest that they use them for more than playing games amd sending emails.

Posted by: onas | May 31, 2008 6:22 PM | Report abuse

re: "Clinton won 15 of the 20 states not considered red or blue(voted dem or rep last 4 election cycles)."

She wasn't running against a republican though so we do not learn very much from this.

Posted by: so? | May 31, 2008 6:17 PM | Report abuse

To: Chris

Please cite one instance where Obama has "trashed" anyone. Direct quotes, please, if you can provide.

Posted by: Just askin' | May 31, 2008 6:16 PM | Report abuse

Hillary's sense of entitlement has gone too far. Already she is sacrificing the good of the party and the country to satisfy her ego. This is just the bellyaching of a sore loser.

Posted by: Ex-Clinton Democrat | May 31, 2008 6:15 PM | Report abuse

"I find it inconceivable that the 2 States that did not follow the rules, moved up their elections in an effort to have more weight in the primary elections, are now going to be given just that weight."

The problem is that the primary schedule is racist and unrepresentative and has been pissing people off for a long time on that basis. You have all these cornfield fatuous white people in Iowa and flinty white New Englanders in New Hampshire putting their stamps on the critical first primary results every election. How representative are they of the diversity of the United States? Not very.

I really dislike Iowa. Firstly, they have a caucus, not a primary. That means that the candidate that motivates the fringe extremists in the party get an early critical lift. Iowa always picks the candidates that the emotionally needy fluff in the party base connect to, like Obama, Huckabee and Howard Dean. The undesirable candidate gets an early, critical boost from the Iowa compulsive caucuses.

(Caucuses in general are worse predictors of who will win general elections than primaries are).

Iowa is the worst because not only is it a lilly white state with a lot of undiverse, homogenous-culture communities out in corn fields, but it's a caucus state to boot.

The primary schedule that treats Iowa and New Hampshire as enshrined in some kind of premium status in setting the first results for the nation, really infuriates some states.

A rotating schedule as been proposed but not implemented.

What has happened is in part due to the entrenched party leadership, some states rebelled. They should. The system should be improved so that some states don't dominate the leadership selection process every election year.

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 6:15 PM | Report abuse

There shouldn't even be anything to negotiate.

The Dems got their last vote and nickel out of me. I'm quitting the party for good this time. They aren't to be trusted.

I'll work for Nader instead. Should have done so from the beginning, but I thought Obama might be different so I gave him a chance. But it's not about Obama, it's about the Democrat party establishment, who are just GOP Lite.

pfffft.

-Wexler

Posted by: William W. Wexler | May 31, 2008 6:15 PM | Report abuse

This dilemma with Florida and Michigan shows how bad the DNC leadership is. That would be Howard Dean. If he had not spent so much energy making brilliant statements like "I hate Republicans", he might had avoided looking like an incompetent chairman. It's hard to believe this guy is an MD.

Posted by: Rob | May 31, 2008 6:14 PM | Report abuse

This dilemma with Florida and Michigan shows how bad the DNC leadership is. That would be Howard Dean. If he had not spent so much energy making brilliant statements like "I hate Republicans", he might had avoided looking like an incompetent chairman. It's hard to believe this guy is an MD.

Posted by: Rob | May 31, 2008 6:14 PM | Report abuse

A party is a private club. Voters have absolutely no "democratic rights". If the party elders wish, they can refuse to accept BOTH candidates, since neither has reached the required number of delegates, and simply nominate Al Gore or somebody else by acclamation.

Posted by: Bodo | May 31, 2008 6:13 PM | Report abuse

To Autodidact

Thank you for that thoughtful post. I couldn't agree more.

I think you left out one potential post for Sen. Clinton, however. Supreme Court Justice. Maybe a longshot, but I'm just sayin'.

Posted by: Just sayin' | May 31, 2008 6:12 PM | Report abuse

Clinton won 15 of the 20 states not considered red or blue(voted dem or rep last 4 election cycles).

Posted by: UpHill Battle | May 31, 2008 6:11 PM | Report abuse

Is it possible to have these comment sections mean anything? The nevergiveuphillary spamming is- aside from being completely beside the point- a waste of space. The thoughtful comments are buried under a pile of racist/sexist/angry muck.

Some of you people are admirable, but some of you, and it may be most who post, are just not as clever as you seem to think.

The issue will be decided by partisans, not idiots.

Posted by: irishjazz | May 31, 2008 6:10 PM | Report abuse

To: Kristy

NH was permitted to move its date because FL broke the rules and got in its way. This is perfectly reasonable to any reasonable person.

Posted by: To: Kristy | May 31, 2008 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Hillary never give up!
Obama is getting scarier by the minute!
DNC do not act like republicans in 2000 or else dean, pelosi and reid are DOA to me forever. Bill is the only democratic president since FDR to get re-elected and Obama has trashed him and Hillary
ENOUGH!

Posted by: Chris | May 31, 2008 6:10 PM | Report abuse

BEV9603:

Don't know what it takes for you to come on up to Canada to live, but anyone who is repulsed by this debate would make a great Canadian.

My cynicism about the US reached new heights during the invasion of Iraq. But with a white woman and a black man running as the leading candidates for a very winnable presidential election, I thought maybe things were changing for the better.

Early on, I would have been delighted by either candidate. Now I'm afraid it feels like Clinton would just be more of the same. And the sexism that has been pouring out of the right wing has been burried by the very thinly veiled racism I see in the language used by the Clinton side, including the candidate and her husband. As a 'hard working white male', my stomach turned at that phrase.

Good luck and please check out how to emigrate to Canada. Good folks are always welcome.

Posted by: Dave Hall | May 31, 2008 6:07 PM | Report abuse

To: NEVER GIVE UP HILLARY

You fail to understand that political parties are private clubs and the constitution has no application to their method of choosing candidates. The parties used to choose them with no voting at all. Now they happen to choose to use a process that involves voting but they can do whatever they want. The political parties are not part of the government--again, they are private organizations. The constitution does not care how private clubs pick their club presidents. This is pretty fundamental stuff.

Posted by: give up hillary | May 31, 2008 6:07 PM | Report abuse

FYI, MI & FL were NOT the only states to move up the dates of their primaries. NH did as well!! The difference - the DNC waived the rules for NH but did not for MI & FL. So, why should NH votes count & not MI or FL??? AND there WAS a campaign in MI to vote "uncommitted" for Obama. Not our fault he took his name off the ballot and when realizing the primary would go on didn't try to get his name on the ballot. Taking voters for granted, berrating Detroit and the blue collar workers, oh yah, definitely voting McCain this fall!!! First time in my life I'll be voting for a member of the GOP for president.

Posted by: Kristy | May 31, 2008 6:06 PM | Report abuse

Interesting point from a former RBC staffer on why the committee members may be late coming back:

http://ccpsblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/live-from-dnc-rules-and-bylaws_31.html

Posted by: Rita | May 31, 2008 6:05 PM | Report abuse

It breaks my heart, as an active feminist from the 1970s, to say that Mrs. Clinton must acknowledge most Democrats favor her Democratic opponent. Party unity for this election is absolutely paramount. Hyperemotional disputes about primaries governed by party rules must stop. The greater threat is that Republicans will once again -- even more disastrously -- rule our nation, repealing an endless array of legislation that in the 1930s began to address human justice. I think it would be great if, once Sen. Obama is president, he appoint Mrs. Clinton to attorney general, to Secretary of State, or to a critical ambassadorship. I wish her all the best, but in light of current circumstances I grieve.

Posted by: Autodidact | May 31, 2008 6:05 PM | Report abuse

@NEVER GIVE UP HILLARY: What you seem not to understand is that (1) it was MI and FL state officials who changed the dates of those states' primaries, so you need to take your gripe to them; and (2) the Democratic primary election is an inter-party affair, like a Junior Chamber of Commerce election, and the US Constitution does not apply any more than it applies to the Republican party primary.

Finally, you might also be interested to know that some Constitutional scholars (like MD Senator Jamie Raskin) believe that the US Constitution does not guarantee our right to vote, which is why they've launched a movement to amend the Constitution.

See: http://reclaimdemocracy.org/political_reform/right_to_vote.html

Posted by: Franck | May 31, 2008 5:59 PM | Report abuse

nevergiveup--14th amendment doesn't apply here,only in general elections. That is why some states use caucuses, some use primary elections. It is why primary elections are divied up, not winner take all. These are Party elections, not general. In a state the size of Mich, only 750,000 Dems voted because there was no contest. Had they adhered to the rules, signed onto by your heroine hillary, and held the primary at an appropriate time, there would have been a far greater turnout and Obama could have walked away with that state as well. Ms. Disingenuous only cried about those two states after she was getting her butt kicked. Before Feb 5, she didn't give a rat's butt about either as she believed that she didn't need either one. And you want this candidate, who can't even manage a front-running campaign, as president?

Posted by: mike l | May 31, 2008 5:58 PM | Report abuse

You all know Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June while campaigning for the Democratic Nomination?

Posted by: Who knows? | May 31, 2008 5:58 PM | Report abuse

Party primaries aren't covered under the Constitution...neither are the elections for president of your local gardening club. Private institutions can make their own rules regarding how they choose their leaders. If they decide to pick names out of a hat, they are within their right to do so.

Posted by: Just sayin' | May 31, 2008 5:56 PM | Report abuse

As a registered Dem in Michigan (though living in Washington), I think the FL comprimise is quite fair. Perhaps an option for MI, as an extension of FL, is seat the Superdelegates and their votes, but no delegates? Just a thought.

Posted by: Tony | May 31, 2008 5:56 PM | Report abuse

NEVER GIVE UP HILLARY's points are so insightful she should post a third time.

Posted by: Sanos | May 31, 2008 5:55 PM | Report abuse

Democrats can't help it.

There's just something superior and smug about the Democratic National Committee that make it look down its nose at Florida and Michigan Democrats!

Remember how Eleanor Norton Holmes told the Floridians they were a disgrace for pleading disenfranchisement? Accordinging to Holmes, only DC is entitled to disenfranchisement.

Posted by: DaTourist | May 31, 2008 5:51 PM | Report abuse

Hillary's devious behavior as to MI and FL shows what a lying, dishonest and awful president she would be. As bad as Bush.

Posted by: BlueDem | May 31, 2008 5:48 PM | Report abuse

"Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. NO STATE SHALL MAKE OR ENFORCE ANY LAW WHICH SHALL ABRIDGE THE PRIVILIGIES (the right to vote etc) or immunities OF CITIZENS of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The Democratic Party can't deny Florida and Michigan participation in the nominating process and hope to win the states in November. It looks like the Florida REPUBLICANS have outsmarted the Democrats one more time. The Republican governor and legislature in Florida were responsible for the primary being moved forward. The names of all nominees stayed on the ballot and no candidate officially campaigned in the state. Given that it was not the Florida Democratic Party that moved the election forward but the Republican legislature, the Florida vote should be counted "as is". It is unfair to penalize Florida Democrats for the political maneuvers of the governor and legislature. If Florida isn't seated, and if this problem isn't resolved, the Democratic Party will pay dearly in November.

The voices from FLORIDA and MICHIGAN have to be heard.

Posted by: NEVER GIVE UP HILLARY | May 31, 2008 5:47 PM | Report abuse

I hope the dems are stupid enough to make Hussein Obama Osama their nominee. HAHAHAHA. The racist bigot from IL hasn't got a prayer. He has not won significant victory from the time his Rev. Wright spilled the true beans on this racist!

Posted by: WmJLePetomane | May 31, 2008 5:45 PM | Report abuse

I'd rather be on Death Row in Texas than have my fate determined by the DNC, dear Democrats of Florida and Michigan!

Vote McCain! Leave all the misery and uncertainty behind!

Be a Republican, and be happy!

Posted by: DaTourist | May 31, 2008 5:45 PM | Report abuse

I thought Wexler did poorly, particularly in the face of questioning why he wouldn't support 100% seating of Florida if it were an option. Other speakers there described him as eloquent, though that's not a term I'd ascribe to someone who spent the entire time shouting. Obama strategists should've been willing to concede a full seating of Florida if the committee would permit it... they'd still win the election and look a hell of a lot better. And it seems a foregone conclusion they won't seat 100% of Fla., so why not argue for it anyway instead of trying to argue the clearly unpopular line that Obama is somehow being magnanimous in moving for 50% in, 50% out? Disenfranchisement isn't popular in Fla. and isn't as apparently justifiable as in Michigan where at least he was off the list.

Props to Fla. state senator Joyner - she was wonderful!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 5:43 PM | Report abuse

This is not surprising. This is the Democrats. The same party that counted slaves as 3/5 a person.

Posted by: HankTheCat | May 31, 2008 5:42 PM | Report abuse

If Fla. is not cheating with hanging chads and miscounting votes, then its out right flagrant cheating with holding elections outside party rules. Get Fla. outta here!
Good ole'Fla. one of the most corrupt states in the nation. Can you say MIAMI?

Posted by: B.S. Forida | May 31, 2008 5:42 PM | Report abuse

This really should be simple to resolve:

Q: Is that Hillary R. Clinton's signature on the documents agreeing MI and FL do not count? Yes or No?

Posted by: lmb02 | May 31, 2008 5:39 PM | Report abuse

The compromise that seemed to have taken shape regarding Florida seems fine especially since all three parties (FL dem party and 2 candidates) agree.

The discussion regarding Michigan was totally other worldly to me. The argument of 'fair reflection' has no applicability in seating the delegates since everyone knew and all agreed to the original sanctions.

The pro-Clinton argument that Obama (and others) removed their names from the ballots of their own volition making it their own tough luck that Obama gets no delegates is so transparently disingenuous that I am dumbfounded that otherwise intelligent adults can even argue that point seriously. Besides being dumbfounded I am insulted and angered by the apparent lack of respect for my (and most other people's) intelligence and honesty that these 'leaders' are making this a linchpin of their case.

If the DNC had not sanctioned the election a priori and if the candidates had not agreed to abide by that decision, had Obama ever taken his name off the ballot? Of course not so what's the discussion about.

We are seeing the worst in our party as they discuss Michigan.

For the good of the party and the general election the only solution is to either abide by the original sanction or split the delegates 50-50 so no one gains any advantage.

Posted by: lennybruce | May 31, 2008 5:38 PM | Report abuse

To Jane Thomson: Actually you're incorrect. The DNC stated in their opening brief on Michigan that no rule of theirs, or the state's, required the removal of candidate's names. Also, not every candidate removed their name, only Obama, Biden, Edwards, and Richardson. Dodd and Kucinich actually do have a couple of delegates from Michigan (I assume Dodd's would go to Obama though, given the endorsement). That's the only reason I'm swayed by Blanchard's argument for Clinton's 73/55 split desire, because there wasn't a DNC requirement to pull their names. As Blanchard also noted, though, apparently Michigan allowed the removal of names, but Florida didn't...if Michigan had prevented the removal of names from the ballot, this would be a moot point (seat all delegates, they each get a half vote, end of story).

Posted by: Ken | May 31, 2008 5:38 PM | Report abuse

The 50/50 compromise seems fair to me. I'm happy to hear those uniting comments from democratic voters interviewed by CNN in Florida. The Clinton Hardline strategy appears lame to me.

This thing is not only about her interest. There is this little thing called the party that she seems to forget. What about the 48 states that followed the rules?

Posted by: Hervé | May 31, 2008 5:34 PM | Report abuse

Actually, to correct the blog, I think the consideration is to seat all of the delegates of both states, but to only given each delegate a half-vote. The only dispute I really hear on FL is that the Ausman proposal wants the superdelegates to count a full vote, where Obama wants them to count only a half vote like the pledged delegates, which seems fair. (Clinton's advocate Joyner really made no points, just impassioned pleas.)

Michigan of course is the tougher nut. Here Clinton had a better advocate, as I was swayed by Blanchard's argument that the DNC doesn't have the right in its rules to edit the split of the votes to either Obama's or Michigan's proposals. Not that there's too much difference between 69/59 and 73/55. The big difference is the 69/59 would enforce the 59 to Obama, where the 55 would be undeclared (though folks figure they'd all go to Obama in the end).

Either way, by the end of this whole thing, it'll probably take Obama just 40 more superdelegates to go over the top of any final number. I have a feeling that Wednesday will be the finale...the superdelegates have given Hillary every primary and caucus and her argument to the DNC. That's it. Appealing to the credentials committee to further violate the DNC rules (to seat the MI l/FL delegations at full votes when even the DNC lawyers say that can't happen) will just make Hillary look more bitter.

Her best bet is to stay in the Senate or see about a cabinet post (given her health care desires, what about Health and Human Services secretary?) and then get into the DNC to help rewrite the rules so this doesn't happen again.

Posted by: Ken | May 31, 2008 5:33 PM | Report abuse

The rules should be upheld, because if they are not then it'll be chaos in 2012 with political leapfrogging all over the place. And that will not be allowed. I see that Florida and Michigan (those in charge of scheduling the primaries, that is) have let the entire voting population of those two states down. I used to do the same thing..that is... purposly invite others to break rules knowing full well it would cause clouds of confusion from which I could profit. It worked for a while but the backlash in later years was hardly sustainable. It's just a very costly way to make a living.

--Bill

Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Screw Fla. Why are there always problems in Fla. when it comes to elections? No one told Fla. to hold voting early outside of the democratic party rules. Now they are crying...AGAIN. No wonder they call Fla. America's D*ck, it just hangs there off side of the country limp, but still trying to screw America. America just needs to cut it off and let it float back to Cuba.

Posted by: Inspector Detector | May 31, 2008 5:32 PM | Report abuse


Hillary is disgusting.

She can't win by the rules, so she cheats.

She lost the popular vote, the pledged delegates, the superdelegates, the number of states and all Democratic demographics except white women over 50 and voters over 65.

We rejected her, and she won't go away.

Posted by: Dave | May 31, 2008 5:31 PM | Report abuse

As I was out walking this morning for pleasure,
I spied a campaigner a-riding along.
Her hat was thrown back and her spurs were a-jingling,
And as she approached she was singin' this song:

"Whoopee tie yie yo! Git along, little Clintons,
For you know that the White House won't be your new home...
Whoopee tie yie yo! Git along, little Clintons -
It's your misfortune and none of my own.

"Some people go out campaignin' for pleasure -
But that's where they've got it most awfully wrong;
You could never imagine the trouble they give us,
As we go a-driving those Clintons along.

"Whoopee tie yie yo! Git along, little Clintons,
For you know that the White House won't be your new home...
Whoopee tie yie yo! Git along, little Clintons -
It's your misfortune and none of my own."

Posted by: Biographer | May 31, 2008 5:30 PM | Report abuse

The Rule of Law is the frame word of American Democracy. Every vote that was cast in accordance with the Rules Law is a Legal Vote. You have to be a Citizen to Vote. You have to be a certain age to Vote. You have to be Registered to Vote. You have to Vote on a "Certain Day and Time" We have a few Limabugh/Hannity provocateurs making noise in the name of Hillary about every vote should count. That is politics. Hillary accepting that is as legitimate is earning illegal gain. All money ain't good money and all votes ain't good votes. It is the Rule of Law that tells us what is acceptable and what is not. Instant replay is decided by the referees. Nuff said.

Posted by: Fareed | May 31, 2008 5:27 PM | Report abuse

the argument that clinton will win because of her blue-collar following doesn't convince me. she had no interest in these voters when she began her campaign--she was all about "ready to be commander-in-chief on day one" and "white house experience." after john edwards dropped out, someone noticed that most of the blue-collars were going for clinton (we later found out that some of this had to do with discomfort on the race issue). she started being their champion after they defaulted to her. I don't think she would hold on to them in the fall; i suspect they would go with mccain.

Posted by: those blue collar voters | May 31, 2008 5:27 PM | Report abuse

Instead of waiting to find out who knows you lied come clean. Do not wait for someone to catch you. One man did not go on the record as saying anything, cunning lawyers but your silence is a way of telling everyone your not the clever man you think you are. You thought you knew how to make it work. Alas manipulating the cards might not work in your favor. Everyone knows who lies and who plays fair.

Posted by: OK Now You All tell the truth | May 31, 2008 5:26 PM | Report abuse

I honestly don't get it. These two states violated the rules and everyone agreed on the sanctions. Now that Clinton needs those numbers the punishment is unfair? This is plain old dirty politics. For the good of the DNC and the reputation of the Democratic party the sanctions should stay in place.

Posted by: carlos quintana | May 31, 2008 5:25 PM | Report abuse

Hey AsperGirl,

Isn't that "entrenched party leadership" that you complain about essentially of the Clinton's creation?

Posted by: drossless | May 31, 2008 5:24 PM | Report abuse

How will Sen. Levin take the full question of credentialling to the floor of the convention if he is has no credential? Levin is a superdelegate in the Michigan delegation, which is not credentialled. So how can he speak to the assembled delegates?

Posted by: Kacoo | May 31, 2008 5:21 PM | Report abuse

The Clinton campaign argument that "all votes should be counted" and likening following the DNC rules and punishing MI & FL to Jim Crow Laws, is a stinking pile of manure fully worthy of the Clinton "brand".

Posted by: Orbiter Dictum | May 31, 2008 5:16 PM | Report abuse

how about the dems ??? break the rules, no consequnces !!

breank into the country ? no problemo.

what huge pile of dung.

im sitting here listening to the callers on CSPAN, it's like watching all the kids who never got picked for any team.

we need a 3 party system. and the power of DNC got you into this mess, that is where the 'punishment' needs to begin and end. any power players from MI and FL need to be unseated and all the votes need to be counted. but hey, have you ever seen a democrat give up any power ? of course not, they dont believe in anything so that is the only way they feel ok about thier lives......the accumulation of power.

Posted by: Laughing at the Dems | May 31, 2008 5:14 PM | Report abuse

Two very big problems with Hillary's arguments that she is winning the popular vote.

1) The democratic nomination process is NOT based on the popular vote. It has been based on state delegates for decades. If you want to change this rule you needed to do that before the nomination process started not at the end when you realized you were losing.

It is like saying after you lost a football game by 21-17 and you decide arbitrarily to say that a touchdown no longer counts for 6 points but rather 4 points. How actually thinks that is fair??

2) Second point is if you even had an argument for the popular vote case you are not counting all the votes in the caucus states as they don't record popular vote. So now you are disenfranchising all the caucus states. But apparently Hillary doesn't care about them because that would not help her losing case.

Posted by: E Nelson | May 31, 2008 5:13 PM | Report abuse

Two very big problems with Hillary's arguments that she is winning the popular vote.

1) The democratic nomination process is NOT based on the popular vote. It has been based on state delegates for decades. If you want to change this rule you needed to do that before the nomination process started not at the end when you realized you were losing.

It is like saying after you lost a football game by 21-17 and you decide arbitrarily to say that a touchdown no longer counts for 6 points but rather 4 points. How actually thinks that is fair??

2) Second point is if you even had an argument for the popular vote case you are not counting all the votes in the caucus states as they don't record popular vote. So now you are disenfranchising all the caucus states. But apparently Hillary doesn't care about them because that would not help her losing case.

Posted by: E Nelson | May 31, 2008 5:11 PM | Report abuse

I just heard the rebroadcast on C-span. Ickes is out of order and over the top. And I voted for Clinton!

BB

Posted by: Fairlington Blade | May 31, 2008 5:05 PM | Report abuse

I love it when white racists like WmJLePetomane try to paint minorities as racist. It's their way of making themselves feel good about themselves despite their psychosis. To the white racists out there, you will fail in the long run. Racism is unAmerican and not to mention a detriment to a strong society. Being racist will get you nowhere in life. Then again, you don't know that, which isn't surprising given your less than high school education.

Posted by: Daniel | May 31, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

I am a Michigan voter. In the general election, I will vote for Senator McCain. The democratic party doesn't care about my vote or voice, and certainly Mr. Obama doesn't care about Michigan voters as he purposefully took his name off our ballot. All these pathetic stops he is making in the state of late is like seeing a dog come home with his tail between his legs becasue he knows he was bad. Don't worry Mr. Obama, Michigan will vote for experience and McCain as will Florida and the fault will fall on YOUR shoulders and YOURS alone. YOU decided long ago that my voice and my state didn't matter. You made that decision all by yourself. Witnessing your supporters today belittle the voice of the voters only reaffirms the hatred you have in your heart for women and the american public.

Posted by: Sarah, MI | May 31, 2008 5:03 PM | Report abuse

It seems that the Democrats in Woodley Park need to decide if they follow the rules or not.

Regardless of the DNC's decision, I can't imagine any of the Clinton or Obama partisans in FL and MI will end up staying home or voting for McCain.

If the Democratic majority for victory in November is that fragile, there is no way that a President Obama or a President Clinton could govern.

Posted by: John | May 31, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

The only bad actor who will be rewarded for doing something underhanded is that Obama will be rewarded if he's allowed to reject the MI outcomes because he chose to take his name off the ballot.

That would reward a bad actor because it would create the strategy whereby any prospective loser can argue that a primary is "invalid" and "flawed" because he wasn't on the ballot. He didn't poll well in MI and he took his name off the ballot, giving himself power to reject the primary in case he wanted to oppose the seating of the delegates.

To understand how underhanded that strategy is, you have to understand that everyone knew that MI & FL would have to fight to get their delegates seated and everyone expected them to get their delegates seated somehow. For Obama to take his name off a ballot in the primary in MI, where he was polling badly, gave him ammunition to fight against having the delegates seated in a contest he was going to lose.

Of all the people who are playing the rules and manipulating the system, it is Obama. If a candidate voluntarily pulls his name off a ballot, his doing so shouldn't be allowed to be used by him in arguing against the validity of the contest. If Obama wants to argue against the validity of the contest, he can do so on the basis of conditions caused by other people's decisions that affected the outcome, not his own.

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

HYPOCRISY:

"Count":
MI and Fl should count in the "Popular Vote" theory of Senator Clinton.

v.

"Don't Count"
13 STATES that "Caucus" which involves voting in groups.


This is ridiculous. The DNC should not have allowed the Clinton campaign to manipulate these facts and leave Clinton fans "thinking" they were disenfranchised, while ignoring 13 other States.

"Silliness" no more.
OBAMA 08

Posted by: Chevychasedesigns | May 31, 2008 4:55 PM | Report abuse

I heard nothing new so far. The issue is clearly drawn -- the Michigan intentional and direct challenge to the primary schedule and Florida tactit challenge. I don't know how I would interpret Florida but nobody can question that Senator Carl Levin said what we did here defied the rules. Whatever else I get out of this hearing is that junior Senator Debbie Stabenow should have been there. (She has declared her vote for Hillary Clinton.) The party has steered popular vote according to its preferrred candididate as it did this year for Hillary Clinton under a lot of other legislative problems. We cannot get the Republicans to agree to closed primaries here, which they oppose.

Posted by: Marletter | May 31, 2008 4:50 PM | Report abuse

Dear "NEVER GIVE UP HILLARY" -- The Constitution guarantees absolutely no rights to vote in a party's primary. Parties have little OFFICIAL governmental or constitutional standing, although it's tell it from the dominance of our political duopoly.

Posted by: egc52556 | May 31, 2008 4:49 PM | Report abuse

I suppose debating the meaning of the word 'shall' is no worse than the action of another key player in this pointless saga, who once famously debated the meaning of the word 'is'.

Posted by: David | May 31, 2008 4:49 PM | Report abuse

>>lmb02 wrote: "This really should be simple to resolve: Q: Is that Hillary R. Clinton's signature on the documents agreeing MI and FL do not count? Yes or No?"

No. The candidates signed pledges to not campaign in those states. They pretty much stuck to that.

There was never any expectation that states wouldn't fight to get their delegates seated. The only thing that may have changed is that since the race for delegates is close, the one who won those states is actively supporting those states in their fight to have them seated.

There's nothing strange in what is happening. Except that the Obama supporters are programmed to froth at the mouth and spout outrage over some imagined Rules that the Clinton campaign is breaking by trying to seat her delegates when she is following the process as laid out by DNC tradition and procedures.

Posted by: AsperGirl | May 31, 2008 4:49 PM | Report abuse

Sure,sure WAPO Obama Shill Chris is just
out to do more of his Democrat Axis of
Weasels for Obama pals Mad Madame Speaker
and Dictator of the Universe Nancy Pelosi
and Horrid Howard Dean and Hairbrain Harry
Reid dirty word and help steal the 2008
Democratic Presidential Nomination for
Liberal Eltist Loser Barack Hussein Obama
so do buy into a word WAPO Shill Chris
or Nutso Nancy Pelosi or Howard Dean or
Harry Ried or Cocaine Snorting Drug Dealer
Peacenik, Secret Muslim Extremist Chicago
Political Hack & Street Punk Thug Loser
Barack Hussein Obama tell you. What happen
to all the comments from the headline to
this story? Did WAPO Delete them because
Barack Hussein Obama and his Democrat Party
Bosses Pelosi,and Dean were getting their
butts kicked here?

Posted by: Sandy5274 | May 31, 2008 4:49 PM | Report abuse

LMAO...

You're moderating the posts on
your article.


LMFAO, How much more loser could you possibly be?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 4:47 PM | Report abuse

.

Do any of you feel the sickness in
your gut, like I do... ?


Our Democracy is being undone by lawyers
and Special Interest.


.
The Hillary supporters are dishonest and altogether anti-democratic. Shame on you Hillary Clinton Supporters

ps. Chris you are a loser... nobody wants to post on your pro-sHillary crap comments. LMAO!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2008 4:44 PM | Report abuse

"Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. NO STATE SHALL MAKE OR ENFORCE ANY LAW WHICH SHALL ABRIDGE THE PRIVILIGIES (the right to vote etc) or immunities OF CITIZENS of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The Democratic Party can't deny Florida and Michigan participation in the nominating process and hope to win the states in November. It looks like the Florida REPUBLICANS have outsmarted the Democrats one more time. The Republican governor and legislature in Florida were responsible for the primary being moved forward. The names of all nominees stayed on the ballot and no candidate officially campaigned in the state. Given that it was not the Florida Democratic Party that moved the election forward but the Republican legislature, the Florida vote should be counted "as is". It is unfair to penalize Florida Democrats for the political maneuvers of the governor and legislature. If Florida isn't seated, and if this problem isn't resolved, the Democratic Party will pay dearly in November.

The voices from FLORIDA and MICHIGAN have to be heard.

Posted by: NEVER GIVE UP HILLARY | May 31, 2008 4:44 PM | Report abuse

The leaders of the Democratic Party and the candidates all agreed to the rules under which the primary elections were to be held. Then, for whatever reasons, some states decided to schedule the elections before the agreed-to date. Discipline was to be imposed. The delegates to the national convention were not to be seated from violating states. Only now that Clinton is likely to lose to Obama does anyone raise the issue of disenfranchisement. Such was as much an issue when the rules were agreed-to as they are now. Logic dictates that Florida and Michigan will have zero delegates seated at the national convention. Of course, that would probably hurt the Democratic vote during the election that pits Obama against McCain. So the Democratic party will likely seat some of the delegates from each state to mollify critics. I guess punishment is not permitted when rules are violated. Witness all the egregious violations of law committed by Loyal Bushies.

Posted by: BlueTwo1 | May 31, 2008 4:34 PM | Report abuse

Democrats would loose in fall if they nominate Clintion... Because to win Election party will need support of independents and Clinton's antics has been so appalling during the campagin that America does not have stomach to face another Bush like person in White House..

Posted by: Sam69 | May 31, 2008 4:28 PM | Report abuse

I find it inconceivable that the 2 States that did not follow the rules, moved up their elections in an effort to have more weight in the primary elections, are now going to be given just that weight. They didn't want to go after 2/5/08, as everyone thought the race would be over by then. The joke is on them, and the rules are rules. Changing the rules at the end of the game is tantamount to cheating!

Posted by: Danielle | May 31, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

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