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Posted at 12:00 AM ET, 01/16/2011

Mouth that roared

By Tom Toles

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By Tom Toles  | January 16, 2011; 12:00 AM ET
 
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Martin Luther King's Final Campaign Remembered .
Dr. King should be remembered for his efforts to help millions of poor people. Not just African Americans. http://www.newslook.com/videos/189310-martin-luther-king-s-final-campaign-remembered?autoplay=true

Posted by: dbmetzger | January 17, 2011 4:23 PM | Report abuse

To Tom Toles...
Putting your head in the lion's mouth is not "using your head".
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | January 17, 2011 12:24 PM | Report abuse

To Tom Toles...
Putting your head in the lions mouth is not "using your head".
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | January 17, 2011 12:23 PM | Report abuse


One of the most frustrating things about Left vs Right political discussions is that no matter how many Conservatives we elect to office, the best we seem to be able to do is curtail the federal government - we're never able to roll it back. Thousands of new laws, new regulations, and new hand-outs every year. Yet the Left always portrays the Right as misers because they won't support this program or that program.

When is it going to be enough for you people?

Posted by: pararanger22

My Reply...
You and your fellow English countrymen are so tight that you squeak when you walk.
All that is left of the English Empire is the English Isles and thanks to the Industrial Revolution, the English Isles will be underwater.
England is a welfare state that cannot support a thriving community. It is the same old drudgery day after day.
When it comes to slaying dragons you are just as useless as our dysfunctional military. the whole mess in the middle is a bloody disgusting fiasco. The cost is draining both of our treasuries.
Your antiquated system of economics is stifling any chance of meaningful progress.
We have become a laughing stock. While other countries like China and India are making progresses we are tail spinning into third world nations to the glee of our enemy.
We need to get back to having the courage to do what is right instead of what is convenient for the military/industrial complex. Our government is no longer responsive to the people's needs and neither is yours.
My Parents were both English and I am disgusted with the way our children will have to endure broken and corrupted nations.
It is all because of penny pinching and sociopathic conservatives who are afraid other people will have a chance to make good and that progress might disturb their comfort zone.
The only thing conservatives are good for is testing parachutes that open on impact.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | January 17, 2011 3:03 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 11:32 AM
"The 'N' in Ranger is for knowledge. Thus, 'I' am never wrong."

Otay, and here I thought the "N" was for nugget, as in "chicken McNugget"!

Posted by: bushidollar | January 16, 2011 10:40 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 6:35 PM
"Selecting a ‘standard bearer(s)’ is a matter of opinion. You can believe what you want but for my purposes, Conservative standard bearers are Reagan and Christie. Others include Goldwater, Buckley"

Say, was it not Buckley that did everything in his power to marginalize the Birchers? If he was around today, he would have attempted to drive the Tea-tard right on out of the Republican party.

Posted by: bushidollar | January 16, 2011 10:35 PM | Report abuse

Well ranger, I wish you good luck in your belief system...this thought that somehow when left alone by government, people solve their own problems. Every time the government takes it's hands off the free market, look what happens. 1929, and 2008; the culmination of two long periods of deregulation and trust in the market. Rich got more greedy, and got more money, and the less fortunate, got even less fortunate.

What I've seen conservatives do to the world, to this country, in the name of the "free" market (it's really not free...it's run to benefit a very few), is unemployment, job loss, lack of proper health care, schools continually cannibalized to "save money", destruction of the planet's ability to regulate itself (with no acknowledgement of same), and endless wars.

This is not what I call Christian. Yes, I suppose that is an opinion. But your arguements have not convinced me otherwise, and until some conservatives come out and actually show some consideration for creating a society and economy that not only stands on its own two feet, but is sustainable (the "continuous growth" model is not sustainable), you won't ever convince me otherwise. And no matter what you say, I'll never believe that Jesus would be cool with the rich getting richer, and the poor getting screwed. THIS is what unbridled conservatism has brought us time and time again. Your delusions about the Reagan years are just that. Facts don't back you up.

Signing off on this topic.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 16, 2011 7:18 PM | Report abuse

See what I mean???

Good evening

Posted by: bertzel | January 16, 2011 7:17 PM | Report abuse

~~Q: why do you think the devil has horns? A: See below.~~

Posted by: jornolibist

jornolibist...you have horns?
Keep blowing them....

If you however are referring to ranger...well...I can see your point....

Me?? you talking to me?
If so please explain...Enlighten me...

Posted by: bertzel | January 16, 2011 6:59 PM | Report abuse

Q: why do you think the devil has horns? A: See below.

Posted by: jornolibist | January 16, 2011 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Hey ranger...Bite me...I have a life outside this blog...don't have time for detailed discussions and when I'm here no one else is....can't wait around all day for a comeback!

Posted by: bertzel | January 16, 2011 6:44 PM | Report abuse


~~Religion can be a tool
Religion can be a path
Posted by: dalyplanet~~~

Religion is used by man for man to control.
It can be a path...yes...mayhem and destruction...The 'good' is no more and has not been since man discovered it's power and chose to use it for himself.

I had to leave "religion" to "find" God...fact.

Scanning and I do mean scanning thru these posts...it appears there is a big abortion problem....of course...always will be...but I bet if men were the ones having children this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion today.
Religion has been a force in this as well. Some religions refuse women the right to use birth control...women were and some still are,also 'forced' to obey their husbands and we know what is on the minds of men 24/7 don't we. Come on admit it guys...You know I am right.

So, guess we can thank religion for that as well.
And religion says abortion not to be permitted...
..No one wants an abortion. No one wants to use it as a means for birth control....some situations call for drastic measures and girls/women should be able to have access to this medical treatment if need be.....and

ranger....a young 12 year old girl would be more traumatized by actually having a baby than going in for a medical procedure....it would be the people who oppose abortion and religious folk who would actually be doing the traumatizing...

ranger states~~~
~~~5. – Assuming you have Marine blood in you, it’s disappointing that you’re willing to protect our citizens but not willing to at least engage in a detailed discussion as to why we don't protect unborn children. It’s the typical Liberal two-step, laying off everything to ‘it’s the Mom’s decision.’~~~

Nice play on words there ranger....It is the WOMAN'S decision and that is her right and she will have to answer to a higher power on that decision...not you or me.

There is a reason for everything and that includes abortion....not all life or the possibility thereof is meant to be, period.

Posted by: bertzel | January 16, 2011 6:38 PM | Report abuse

PD60,

I give you credit for your attempts at supporting arguments for your positions (you’ll note bertzel will zoom in for a couple of zinger sentences then depart rapidly), but you really aren’t proving your points, to whit:

1 – Selecting a ‘standard bearer(s)’ is a matter of opinion. You can believe what you want but for my purposes, Conservative standard bearers are Reagan and Christie. Others include Goldwater, Buckley, Palin, Hannity, Krauthammer, Kristol, Cheney, and Jack Kemp. Rush is a great Conservative and folks listen to him. He has a huge following so sure – it’s good not to cross him unless the subject matter is clearly something you are willing to go toe to toe with him about. Liberals are quick to critique him but that’s only because they don’t have a powerful personality articulating the Liberal message. Why? It is simply because most Americans are more Conservative than Liberal. Just the way it is dude. O’Reilly is far from being a Conservative – not sure you could prove otherwise.

If you believe that McGovern, MLK, and RFK are the be all/end all for Liberals, fine with me.

2 – America was in the toilet at the end of the Carter years. I had just graduated from high school and the morale of the country was busted. Few job opportunities, 20% inflation; Iran hostage crisis…life was not a bowl of cherries. The American experiment in socialism was grinding to a halt. Reagan turned things around in 8 years to include winning the Cold War. The economy was doing great. He could work with Congress too when Tip O’Neal was the Speaker and knew how to get things done.

Last month I watched a clip from Bill Maher’s show where he was interviewing George Clooney. The two Liberals were jawing about this and that when Maher made some off-hand comment belittling Conservatives in regard to how much they give to charity and causes like Clooney’s support of ending the conflict in Sudan. The audience howled and laughed at Maher’s jab but Clooney said ‘hold on…wait a minute…you’re wrong. The Conservatives give a lot more than the Liberals.’ Maher was taken aback. My point is that Liberals want the Government to be that arbiter of all the wealth in the US and Conservatives believe that wealth (and the power that goes with it) should center on the private sector. Liberals are insatiable at picking the pocket of our citizens so they can use the money to control…everything. It’s all about power.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 6:35 PM | Report abuse

--He actually believed it was everyone's responsibility to help the poor.~~
pdog


Amen to that bro,

This line here is a big part of conservative thinking. ... believed it was EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY to help...

everyones responsibility

That every person should help, not some, but everyone. Money is but one talent available.

It is demeaning over time to be getting 'helped' by government.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 16, 2011 6:11 PM | Report abuse

ranger, none of the people you mention are what I would consider "liberal standard bearers". The people I mentioned, Limbaugh, et al, ARE the people that pretty much are the mouthpiece and the voice of conservatism. How many times has a Republican said something slightly off message, only to be "RINOed" by Limbaugh, and then have to backpeddle the very next day to try to get back into Rush's favor? Happens all the time. He is the sounding board for every conservative principle and policy these days. Every conservative talking point from his show is repeated verbatim, by Republican House and Senate members. There is not a liberal who holds so much sway over the Democratic party, as do Limbaugh and Palin over Republicans and tea partiers. So again, go back to my orginal point. Would you say Limbaugh's antics are that of a good Christian? If you think so, you're not really thinking.

As far as Reagan being your hero, I'm happy for you. Though trickle down economics (which never worked) was far from a "Christian" plan to help the poor and disadvantaged. Not to mention all the other programs he cut that helped the less fortunate (ask any mental health professional what happened to federal funds under Reagan for insitutions to help the mentally ill). And then there's deregulating the heck out of everything so the rich could get richer and the planet could be depleted even more. Income disparity between upper and lower income brackets grew enormously under Reagan. "Blessed are the poor" indeed.

And contrary to what some might insinuate, I don't think EVERY Democratic fits the mold of a "good Christian" either. There are plenty in positions of power right now that don't. Any that voted for the war in Iraq should go back and check their belief system too.

The people I mentioned, like MLK and RFK, are true liberal standard bearers in my eyes. If others choose to idolize talking heads like Olbermann, that's their deal. His ratings are never anything close to O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck and the like, so not many are really paying attention to him anyway which sort of defeats your "standard bearer" pronouncement. He, Maddow and others make good points now and then, but they certainly are no George McGovern when it comes to progressive thought and deed.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 16, 2011 5:53 PM | Report abuse

Religion is a TOOL

Religion can be a tool
Religion can be a path

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 16, 2011 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Hey, yeah, lets get rid of the first amendment. Freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody says anything I disagree with. Haha! What complete idiots. Ben Franklin said: "Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."

Posted by: shred11 | January 16, 2011 5:18 PM | Report abuse

Oh sorry, of course the only time liberals like to discuss religion is when they are bashing Christians

Posted by: jornolibist | January 16, 2011 4:49 PM | Report abuse

PrairieDog60 wrote:

["If you're uncomfortable with seeing Jesus as a liberal, then look at it this way. Who does he have more in common with; all the conservative standard bearers of today? Rush Limbaugh, John McCain, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Sarah Palin? Or... MLK, RFK, George McGovern, Paul Wellstone; and other such progressive liberals?"]

------------------

You can't be serious. I'm sure Jesus has more in common with such Liberal standard bearers as Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann, Paul Krugman, EJ Dionne, and who can forget John Edwards. Now there was a great VP candidate - got any answers for him? Even though John McCain isn't much of a Conservative, he spent a number of years in a Vietnam POW camp which gets him a lot closer to Jesus than any of your Liberals. Ronald Reagan and Chris Christie, are my kind of Conservatives.

Anyhow, have fun in your 'I'm not quite a Catholic...not quite a Christian...not quite a pacifist' world. Commitment is tough - sounds like you could use some.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 4:39 PM | Report abuse

muawiyah
How can we teach children all the subjects they need to know plus taking time to pray in any one of a dozen different faiths. Our public schools are not for that purpose.

Posted by: tullymet | January 16, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

DP - Sorry my sarcasm was way above your level of comprehension. I won't do it again.

Posted by: unoiamrite | January 16, 2011 4:09 PM | Report abuse

daly...I'm not morally superior to anyone. I merely call out people who claim to be one thing while doing something else. I don't claim to be a "Christian", as I don't buy the "magic" Jesus, only his words and example.

Your words daly,
"He was anti government" --No, he was anti-Rome, an oppressive empire that gave the Jews and countless others little or no voice in their own governance and society.

"Believed church should help the poor" --He actually believed it was everyone's responsibility to help the poor. Define "help" for me. Does help mean to give a few dollars of your massive fortune while still exploiting the poor and giving them a job that pays barely enough to live on so you can drive several hummers and own four or five homes? Remember, wealth accumulated by some is wealth denied others. There is only so much to go around on a planet with limited resources.

"Probably would be anti abortion if available" --Am not sure there are too many "pro" abortion liberals out there. Abortion is an awful thing, but sometimes it is the best alternative for people in certain situations.

"Was not divisive" --Am not sure of your point here. Are you saying all liberals are divisive?

ranger, many of my comments to daly also are appropriate for you. I will say this about the rest of your post. Jesus allowed himself to be killed for his beliefs. Many of the early followers of the church martyred themselves for this cause as well, many dying horrible deaths that they knew they would have to endure. This says something about what it meant to be an early "Christian". Jesus never took up arms against anyone, he and his earliest followers were pure pacifists.

While I don't think being a total pacifist is something I could ever do, I do believe that wars of aggression (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) have all been wrong, and that war in general is the worst of humanity and should never be entered into unless purely for the reasons of self defense. "Maybe he's got weapons of mass destruction" does not justify it. Nor does "well there's one guy in a cave who masterminded an attack on us, so we need to invade the entire country". Nor do any of the other excuses used for stupid little and big wars this nation has fought in the last 50 years. These were not "Christian" actions, any more then the Crusades were.

If you're uncomfortable with seeing Jesus as a liberal, then look at it this way. Who does he have more in common with; all the conservative standard bearers of today? Rush Limbaugh, John McCain, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Sarah Palin? Or... MLK, RFK, George McGovern, Paul Wellstone; and other such progressive liberals?

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 16, 2011 3:12 PM | Report abuse

Oh, oh ohhh! As long as we're throwing Latin around...concerning this topic....
"e pluribus unum".

good day all...damn seahawks are losing.grrrr.

Posted by: bertzel | January 16, 2011 3:05 PM | Report abuse

Damn!!! After reading more of these posts I have that strange song in my head....how does that go? Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross....

Posted by: bertzel | January 16, 2011 2:58 PM | Report abuse

~~~~~1. – Immortals~~~ranger...
my 'name' is bertzel...you called me 'immortal' not my name. therefore a name none the less....what does the r stand for rite (spelling intended)? You know b could stand for many many things as well...doesn't make it so. (chuckle)I would admit that some of the things are so!

daly~~~interesting view...christ was against the church as I recall, not government.
Where do you think women fit into the 'mans world' back in the day? They certainly did not rank highly. In the world of religion that is. Still don't do they...tho Christianity choose to make one blessed, a saint, holy...interesting concept isn't it. A mother of the son of God....Christ was a great Prophet...We ALL are sons and daughters of God. Yep, I'm even including you ranger!

Religion is a TOOL...that is all it is....promotes Man's view of what man perceives morality should be. Yet there are all those child molesters out there within the walls of the CHURCH!!....hmmmm...not to mention all that dog stated.

Dog, I agree with most of what you mentioned.

Posted by: bertzel | January 16, 2011 2:47 PM | Report abuse

unoiamrite

Huh? Your medications don't help much with the fantasy world you live in do they.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 16, 2011 2:28 PM | Report abuse

PrairieDog60 wrote:

[“For those on the right that claim to be Christian, yet adhere to much of the right's dogma, I have news for you...you're really not a Christian.”]
---------------------

This post is farcical; it’s just self-righteous drivel. PD60 would have us believe that Liberals perch themselves in an ivory tower, draped in their Jesus-like impecuniosity, concerned only about the brotherhood of man, far above the morally bankrupt Conservatives.

MLK and RFK we’re great men in their own right but ‘we’ did not kill them.

I’ll let the preachers, preach, but I suspect Jesus does not sign up for Liberal agenda items such as: abortion, homosexuality, stem cell research, atheism, and same-sex marriage.

By your reasoning, George Washington was just another pathetic, Conservative, lacking in true Christian values. He led our forces to kill the British during the American Revolution. Not very Jesus like in his actions.

Every Soldier, Marine, Airman, civilian that supported every war this country fought was just another misguided ne’er-do-well in the eyes of Jesus. Put a big barrier around Arlington Cemetery so we do not have to gaze upon those bereft of divine Liberal virtue.

When it comes to Christian evaluation procedures, Jesus will sort us out without your help. You would be better served to focus on the man in the mirror rather than pass religious judgments upon others.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 2:09 PM | Report abuse

Ah DP; bizarro RWJ. We don’t hear enough about him. Yeah he was a secret governor of the Bank of Rome and commander of the MCCXXXIV Legion. There is no doubt that he was anti government for all but the Roman one. Believed the church (you know that ancient megachurch outside of Antioch) should help the poor. Probably Certainly would be anti abortion if available, we need soldiers for war.

O quam cito transit gloria mundi

Posted by: unoiamrite | January 16, 2011 1:55 PM | Report abuse

Crazed Rhetoric is wrong on the right.

Some commentators on TV / in print have denied any Tea Party association with the Arizona killer.

I proffer this from NY Times:

"Jared L. Loughner became intrigued by anti-government conspiracy theories, including that the Sept. 11 attacks were perpetrated by the government and that the country’s central banking system was enslaving its citizens. His anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of government.

“I think he feels the people should be able to govern themselves,” said Ms. Figueroa, his former girlfriend. “We didn’t need a higher authority.” Breanna Castle, 21, another friend from junior and senior high school, agreed. “He was all about less government and less America,” she said...

... during a meeting with a school administrator, Mr. Loughner said that he had paid for his courses illegally because, “I did not pay with gold and silver” — a standard position among right-wing extremist groups.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

Posted by: Tony-KS | January 16, 2011 1:21 PM | Report abuse

felling morally superior today pdog.

My understanding of Jesus is

He was anti government
Believed church should help the poor
Probably would be anti abortion if available
Was not divisive

Just because many people believe that limited government is better than expanded government does not make them less moral. Many government programs have unintended consequences that are harmful to society. Jesus said Man should help Man not government.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 16, 2011 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Who are the people we most revere, the ones we look back on as great people? Here's a small list;

Starting with Martin Luther King. Why is he revered? He preached equality, equity, love, non-violence. True "Christian" values.

We killed him for it.

Who else lost their life that same year? Bobby Kennedy. This was a man who was once an attack dog, kind of arrogant, and then saw his brother gunned down. After years of soul searching and examining what it was that he wanted to do with his life, he got back on his feet and talked about ending war, about equality, about carrying on the civil rights work his brother started. He talked to a crowd in Indianapolis the day MLK was killed, and urged calm and non-violence, as King would have wished. Indy was the only major city in which rioting did NOT take place that night.

We killed him for it.

A man named Jesus preached humbleness, peace, non-violence ("turn the other cheek"), love, and also blessed the poor and meek and peacemakers. He encouraged everyone to find the divine within themselves and be like him. He had no time for "money changers", and said "whatever you do to the least among you, you do to me".

We killed him for it.

I would probably not get an argument that the first two names I listed were liberals. But I'm sure I'll stir some people up by saying that the third person I listed was also a liberal. I don't know how a sane person could argue otherwise, but I'm sure some will try.

The point? For those on the right that claim to be Christian, yet adhere to much of the right's dogma, I have news for you...you're really not a Christian. Jesus would not have started a pre-emptive war with Iraq. He would not discriminate against gays, or anyone for that matter. He would not promote "second amendment solutions". He would not continue to suck the planet dry, knowing it was in peril. He would not endorse wealth beyond reason while millions were getting poorer, sicker and losing their jobs.

Why was Christianity so unstoppable, so pervasive? Precisely because of what it stood for. It defended everyone's rights, the poor and sick and lower classes especially. It has been corrupted and polluted over the centuries, but the words of its founder still resonate.

I was born and raised Catholic, but am no longer, as Catholicism is oppressive, sexist, and corrupt. But, in all those years of going to Catholic school, I absorbed a lot of what Jesus was really all about. He was a peace-loving, equality-promoting practitioner of love, kindness, civility, forgiveness and pacifism.

If you consider yourself a Christian, and you're still promoting the policies and ideology of the right, I suggest you do some soul searching. The "Christian right" is an oxymoron.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 16, 2011 12:19 PM | Report abuse

~~~1. – Immortals are never wrong. Just ask one of them (start with bertzel and bushidollar and OckamsRazor). Your frat handle makes my point too (unoiamwrite).
ranger~~~

name calling again eh ranger?
You are right...I do make mistakes. Tho I am never wrong. : )

Posted by: bertzel

------------------

The 'N' in Ranger is for knowledge. Thus, 'I' am never wrong.

Calling you an immortal is hardly name-calling in the sense you are taking umbrage about. Wyatt Earp, Greek mythology, - you are in good company so don't feel so bad.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 11:32 AM | Report abuse

~~~1. – Immortals are never wrong. Just ask one of them (start with bertzel and bushidollar and OckamsRazor). Your frat handle makes my point too (unoiamwrite).
ranger~~~

name calling again eh ranger?
You are right...I do make mistakes. Tho I am never wrong. : )

Posted by: bertzel | January 16, 2011 11:16 AM | Report abuse

OckamsRazor wrote:

["My Reply, In a capitalistic society, a hand up only gets you on your feet. If you are going to survive you are going to have to have a job that pays the cost of living or your life is toast. This country always maintains a surplus of workers. If you cannot work or cannot find work that pays the cost of living your only hope is help.
Because many incomes in this country are less than the cost of living there are very few people who can help. The government is responsible to maintain justice and equity in this nation. It does not do that. It allows Corporations to control wages and force people into poverty. The labor unions were the only hope for equity in this nation and they became corrupt and now our government representatives are doing the same thing. What hope is there for justice or equity? Most people that are out of worker are hard working people that are victims of work going out of this country because of greedy CEO's. The wages are going down and the prices are going up. There are not enough available funds to support our government let alone our people and we are trillions of dollars in debt. Our only hope is to change our economic system to support our population and give people sufficient wages to support a reasonable lifestyle. Otherwise, there will be no future for this nation. On the subject of Sarah Palin…
She is a disaster waiting to happen. If she becomes president with her "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude we will be fighting another world war. Dave

----------------

Lot of material here Dave. A few responses:

1 - The Left campaigned mightily that Reagan would get us into war. In fact, his 'peace through strength' message ended the Cold War. This is undisputed. SP loves Reagan so she would act similarly in the face of China's call to arms.
2 - Union corruption is a big issue, agreed. Malign union activities and demands also contribute to CEO decisions to ship jobs abroad.
3 - Most of the remainder of your comments are of the socialist brand - you just see things differently than I do. In terms of debt, I believe that austerity is the right call now as do the House GOP. It is working here in the UK given the Brits came to their senses and tossed the Labor government last year. We do have minimum wage, the FLRA, FMLA, EEOC, unemployment insurance, a host of other boards and programs and protections but it's never enough for you guys.

One of the most frustrating things about Left vs Right political discussions is that no matter how many Conservatives we elect to office, the best we seem to be able to do is curtail the federal government - we're never able to roll it back. Thousands of new laws, new regulations, and new hand-outs every year. Yet the Left always portrays the Right as misers because they won't support this program or that program.

When is it going to be enough for you people?

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 8:00 AM | Report abuse

~~~6 - Yep, the South. If you are a NE educated Liberal, you better know how to come down to the South and communicate to folks~~~ranger~~

Hey ranger...no offense but the North just kicked the south's butt...42-21 HA!!!

Posted by: bertzel

-------------------

Keeps peace in the family given my spouse loves Green Bay. Been a long year for this Dallas native...

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 7:44 AM | Report abuse

Unoiamrite,
1. – Immortals are never wrong. Just ask one of them (start with bertzel and bushidollar and OckamsRazor). Your frat handle makes my point too (unoiamwrite).
1.5. – ‘trust me the present GOP manifesto isn’t going to win any kind of accolade other than in the USA’. You obviously traveled in countries I’m not familiar with dude. Venezuela doesn’t count – but you and Sean Penn might have greater faith in Chavez than you do in your own country. The Brits were discussing forming a Constitution during the last election – many are tired of the socialist bull they put up with here. Sarkozy is in office because socialism isn't working. It’s a very thin line there but Sarkozy continues to win the Conservative fight.
2. - Your point about the oil spill response is petty and stupid. ‘Please provide the exact scenario’.... I always love those types of questions from you and bertzel and bushidollar. I can tell you this – no one was happy with the way the crisis was handled, a key and undisputed result of the oil spill. Thad Allen did a fine job within his limited resources but the command relationships between him and his supporting teams we’re all ad hoc and took weeks to sort out. The USCG has 41K personnel and a very small staff. Why not, in the first 24 hours, assign responsibilities to a combatant command like USNORTHCOM or USSOUTHCOM where the staffs are routinely exposed to crises of this magnitude? A firmer, better thought out USG response would have reduced the amount of drip-drip-drip bad news that flowed from the complex nature of this problem. As for the administration, their political response was dopey as Carville articulated. My advice would have been to (and this applies to Bush/Katrina too) take the Presidential colors directly to the coast and set up ‘WH South HQ’ so everyone knew what the priority was for the President and the country. POTUS certainly has the communications architecture and funds to carry on other business too but the point would be if Louisianans are uncomfortable, we’re going to be uncomfortable until the job is done. I can't see where any component of sound leadership was demonstrated during the oil spill crisis.
3. – Norway is a fine country. Why don’t you ask them how they feel about oil exploration? You won’t get much of a liberal response me-thinks.
4. – I don’t really understand your comment about health care, actually. But as for the unions, why not ask why foreign car companies set up shop in Alabama? Great people, great work ethic, no unions. Folks get a great wage and they don’t have to spirit off hard earned dollars to a self licking ice cream cone called union bureaucracy.
5. – Assuming you have Marine blood in you, it’s disappointing that you’re willing to protect our citizens but not willing to at least engage in a detailed discussion as to why we don't protect unborn children. It’s the typical Liberal two-step, laying off everything to ‘it’s the Mom’s decision.’

Sua sponte'

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 7:42 AM | Report abuse

Rudesan posted:

["pararanger22:
Carter, Clinton and Bush all completed at least one full term as Governor before immediately taking office as President. Why exactly couldn't Palin? She isn't interested in being President. What she wants is to be famous. THAT won't happen in Juneau."]

-------------------

It's a nice talking point Rudesan but SP is certainly interested in becoming President. I've already articulated most of the very sound reasons SP left office but you've actually highlighted another (although in a condescending way). SP did need to keep her name 'out there' in the media and more so than from the AK Governor's seat. The other reason I've articulated is that it was a relief for the AK people. AK is a state of 689K people - I think everyone of them has been interviewed about how they feel about SP. The media and the Left want to destroy SP - by being the lightning rod behind the Tea Party, SP won the second round (she lost the first one as McCain's VP candidate).

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 16, 2011 6:57 AM | Report abuse

First as tragedy, then as farce…

From Democracy Now! January 14, 2011:

We speak with Tucson shooting survivor Eric Fuller. A 63-year-old disabled veteran, Fuller had campaigned for Arizona Democrat Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in her reelection campaign and was at the supermarket in Tucson on Saturday to meet with her. He was shot in the knee and also wounded in the back. "It looks like Palin, Beck, Sharron Angle and the rest got their first target," Fuller says. "Their wish for Second Amendment activism has been fulfilled."

From The Washington Post, January 16, 2011

TUCSON - Arizona shooting victim James Eric Fuller was arrested Saturday and taken for a psychiatric evaluation after allegedly photographing a local tea party leader at a forum organized by ABC and yelling: "You're dead." According to news reports, Fuller became upset when Trent Humphries, an audience member at an event, suggested that conversations about gun control be delayed until those killed in the shooting are buried.

… Fuller was involuntarily committed for a minimum of 72 hours. He is expected to be charged with misdemeanor disorderly conduct and threatening.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It’s rare that you can find humor in tragedy.

Link to Democracy Now! Article: http://www.democracynow.org/2011/1/14/tucson_shooting_survivor_it_looks_like

Link to WAPO Article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/15/AR2011011504551.html

Posted by: angrierthanyou | January 16, 2011 6:11 AM | Report abuse

Government should help them when they trip up; government should be there when they fall and cannot get up. But - in most cases, it should be a hand up, not a hand out. Liberals always tack toward the hand out in order to create and maintain a constituency. Liberals can't hide from this fact - and it's the principal one I detest the most.
Posted by: pararanger22

My Reply,
In a capitalistic society, a hand up only gets you on your feet. If you are going to survive you are going to have to have a job that pays the cost of living or your life is toast. This country always maintains a surplus of workers. If you cannot work or cannot find work that pays the cost of living your only hope is help.
Because many incomes in this country are less than the cost of living there are very few people who can help.
The government is responsible to maintain justice and equity in this nation. It does not do that. It allows Corporations to control wages and force people into poverty. The labor unions were the only hope for equity in this nation and they became corrupt and now our government representatives are doing the same thing.
What hope is there for justice or equity?
Most people that are out of worker are hard working people that are victims of work going out of this country because of greedy CEO's.
The wages are going down and the prices are going up.
There are not enough available funds to support our government let alone our people and we are trillions of dollars in debt.
Our only hope is to change our economic system to support our population and give people sufficient wages to support a reasonable lifestyle. Otherwise, there will be no future for this nation.
On the subject of Sarah Palin…
She is a disaster waiting to happen. If she becomes president with her "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude we will be fighting another world war.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | January 16, 2011 12:03 AM | Report abuse

oohh talking religion....sorry I can't participate...would be 'fun' to say the least. Next time perhaps cuz I dooo love that topic!!

Posted by: bertzel | January 15, 2011 11:28 PM | Report abuse

oops, make that 48***to 21 : )

Posted by: bertzel | January 15, 2011 11:25 PM | Report abuse

~~~6 - Yep, the South. If you are a NE educated Liberal, you better know how to come down to the South and communicate to folks~~~ranger~~

Hey ranger...no offense but the North just kicked the south's butt...42-21 HA!!!

Posted by: bertzel | January 15, 2011 11:23 PM | Report abuse

tullymet ~ your preference for keeping religion inside the home and the place of worship IS SO MEDIEVAL.

Europeans and Asians have fought long and hard against the forces of darkness that kept their spiritual lives confined to their homes, temples, synagogues, etc ~ even Jews in Medieval times were NOT ALLOWED to appear on the public streets attired as Jews, or with their hair cut as Jews.

If you want freedom you gotta' give up these Medieval concepts, or, go find yourself someplace like Burma where your kind are welcome.

Posted by: muawiyah | January 15, 2011 11:08 PM | Report abuse

Hello again pararanger22:
1 – OK we’ve both seen a lot of foreign countries, but trust me the present GOP manifesto isn’t going to win any kind of accolade other than in the USA. Oh! Oh! Did you just make me one of the ancient Greek mythological IMMORTALS. I’m honoured to be one of Toles’ band of brothers.
2 – Your gushing SP comments suggest advanced emotional infestation. “she will be entertained by each country's best and brightest and most powerful”. Really!!!!! Go to Utube and search for John Cleese’s commentary when SP was the GOP VP candidate. It’s beyond priceless, and that was before she resigned from a job that was well beyond her capabilities.
3 – Please supply us with the exact scenario that a JMcC/SP admin would have done to fix the BP spill. I’m eager to read about GOP perfection. Up to now I’ve heard that only the North Korean leader is perfect in all things. BTW the gov response was headed by Adm. Thad Allen, head of the USCG. Didn’t you see him on TV daily? Well maybe not on Faux. Are you implying the USCG is incompetent?????, I’m sure you are.
4 – Ok we agree, the entire world is overjoyed that SP is no longer governor.
5 – I’ll take Os standing among the world leadership against any GOPer. Hell (BTW also a small town in Norway, been there,ha ha, get it? Yes I really was there and its not at all like the GOP hell) the Norwegians even gave him a Nobel. Yeah that was dumb. but that was what the civilized world thinks of anyone that isn’t RW-GOP. Hey, he even admitted he didn’t deserve it, that’s humble.
6 – Oh yeah the South. That’s where on 60 Minutes™, hundreds of people lined up in a parking lot before dawn to avail themselves of much needed medical and dental care provided free by kind and generous doctors and nurses, because the people don’t earn a decent wage in the Southern non-union workers paradise. I’m sure the corporate big wigs have their health insurance paid, and not out of their multi-million dollar bonuses either. Sure is nice to have a union called The Board of Directors. OK before you slag me, I’ve never belonged to a union myself. BTW we’ve had universal health care here since 1965.
7 – Abortion is unpleasant, but is only a subject between a women and her doctor. The anti-government interference in people’s lives GOP dogma should honor this and stop being hypocrites.
That’s all - this blog will now terminate. Semper Fi


Posted by: unoiamrite | January 15, 2011 9:30 PM | Report abuse

Of course atheists would disagree wasn't Loughner an atheist?

Posted by: jornolibist | January 15, 2011 9:21 PM | Report abuse

pararanger22:
Carter, Clinton and Bush all completed at least one full term as Governor before immediately taking office as President. Why exactly couldn't Palin? She isn't interested in being President. What she wants is to be famous. THAT won't happen in Juneau.

Posted by: Rudesan | January 15, 2011 9:00 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: OckamsRazor | January 15, 2011 1:16 PM"
We have a serious problem that has to be addresses not ignored.
Dave"

Dave, nothing that you mentioned was a "serious problem". The real serious problem is that mentally ill people are able to buy guns. You could pass laws restricting guns, but it still would not address the problem that the insane can buy guns. How would one go about qualifying an individual for the purchase of a firearm without violating that same persons other rights? Perspective gun owners already have to jump through enough hoops.

Posted by: bushidollar | January 15, 2011 7:26 PM | Report abuse

unoiamrite,

Let me address your last long post from yesterday w/ a few concise points:

1 - Yes, I've been all over the world so I think my perspective is a bit more informed than some of my blog pals here within the Toles' den of immortals.
2 - You really don't understand key leader engagement, do you? If SP arrived in Haiti or any other country on the planet, you can bet the VIPs would be out to meet her in force. She isn't just an ex-governor. She's a world-famous US figure with political power. Thus, she will be entertained by each country's best and brightest and most powerful. That is quite instructive in the diplomatic aspect of being a potential world leader.
3 - Regarding Obama's handling of the oil spill, your argument was weak. O and his administration we're clearly in over their heads, pardon the partial pun. Even Dems like James Carville we're outraged and disappointed. I didn't expect a 24 hour turn around but I did expect leadership. O was lazy - didn't spend time in LA soon enough or long enough. After the beating the Left gave Bush over the Katrina disaster, a storm of Biblical proportions that no one could have managed, I find your comments a bit childish.
4 - SP made the right choice in resigning as Governor of AK. She has true aspirations to run for President and it would be very difficult for her and on the AK people for her to remain governor. One of the main reasons is because AK is probably better than 10 hours flight time away - worse if she was flying from Juneau. SP took a political hit for this, that is understandable, but it was the right choice.
5 - Having a President that has a decent understanding of how the world works (especially the powerful Nations) is helpful, true. But just exactly how humble do you want our President to be when he is dealing with the Europeans and the Chinese? How many 'apologize for the US' CINCs must we endure in my lifetime? We want a President that clearly puts the US first. O didn't do that coming into office. As an aside, juvenile actions toward the UK have been absolutely appalling. Clearly Os performance on the world stage has been one never-ending-bumble.
6 - Yep, the South. If you are a NE educated Liberal, you better know how to come down to the South and communicate to folks. Clinton could do it - heck - even Hillary (a Wellesley grad) could do it. Not O. The South is always suspicious of the NE - completely different mind set.
7 - Unborn babies can't protect themselves. Kids can't protect themselves. Adults - they have the free will and maturity to do the best they can to live a productive life of their own accord. Government should help them when they trip up; government should be there when they fall and cannot get up. But - in most cases, it should be a hand up, not a hand out. Liberals always tack toward the hand out in order to create and maintain a constituency. Liberals can't hide from this fact - and it's the principal one I detest the most.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 15, 2011 5:28 PM | Report abuse

I take that back...it "could" happen. most likely would not tho because....

Posted by: bertzel | January 15, 2011 4:57 PM | Report abuse

~~~We have a serious problem that has to be addresses not ignored.
Dave~~~~

yes we do...your mind-set.
Not everyone who owns a gun carries said gun....people are not "that stupid"...that scenario cannot happen because of existing laws already in place.

Posted by: bertzel | January 15, 2011 4:53 PM | Report abuse

Dailyplanet
And they have done that because-----------

Posted by: tullymet | January 15, 2011 3:43 PM | Report abuse

: tullymet

I would say that the issue is not that prayer is the schools responsibility as much as secular administration has effectively forbidden prayer from school.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 15, 2011 3:23 PM | Report abuse

"We have met the enemy, and he is us." - Pogo

Posted by: pjohn2 | January 15, 2011 3:03 PM | Report abuse

In regard to no prayer in school. I happen to believe that religion belongs in the home and churches, synagougs etc. I have a question for you. When was the last time, as a family, did you recite the lords prayer before the family went off to work and to school?
Why is prayer the schools reponsibility?

Posted by: tullymet | January 15, 2011 2:47 PM | Report abuse


To Tom Toles...
I have an important point to make too.

Can you imagine what would have happened if everyone at the shooting of the representative Giffords had gun? It would have been like a bar fight. There are no sides, just people shooting at each other with no idea who were the victims or who was the perpetrator. The outcome would have been even more deadly.
Not only that, if some one did have a weapon and accidentally shoot an innocent bystander, they would be charged with murder.
It goes back to the fact that creating hate and discontent is the first step in chaos.
In the mean time; it might be a good idea that there be a plain clothed policeman overseer that can shoot the shooter not the wrong person.
We have a serious problem that has to be addresses not ignored.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | January 15, 2011 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: jornolibist => No prayer in school and abortions are to blame for 22 year old pucks to be able to ...

Let's see, the Taliban believe in school prayer to the exclusion of all else and they certainly don't believe in abortion. Soooo the Taliban are your ideal...............?

BTW keep up the great work Mr. Toles. A little sanity in an insane world.

Posted by: unoiamrite | January 15, 2011 7:25 AM | Report abuse

~~~No prayer in school and abortions are to blame for 22 year old pucks to be able to ...
Posted by: jornolibist~~~

Talk stupid.

Posted by: bertzel | January 14, 2011 11:17 PM | Report abuse

~~~IF I can truly justify in my own mind the assertion that anyone whose opinions violate my personal morality is by definition immoral and, worse, may constitute an actual threat to me personally or to the security of my family or my community or my state or my country... Is there ANY act which I cannot justify by the excuse of pre-emptive self-defense?!?
Posted by: jonroesler~~~

Yes, but...you can retort with your own opinion.
There is a difference between a threat and an opinion. Is there not?

Posted by: bertzel | January 14, 2011 10:53 PM | Report abuse

No prayer in school and abortions are to blame for 22 year old pucks to be able to ...

Posted by: jornolibist | January 14, 2011 10:42 PM | Report abuse

Tom,

You sly guy, you. I just love how SP's hairdo looks like Anwar al-Awlaki's head gear. LOL!

Posted by: bushidollar | January 14, 2011 10:13 PM | Report abuse

IF I can truly justify in my own mind the assertion that anyone whose opinions violate my personal morality is by definition immoral and, worse, may constitute an actual threat to me personally or to the security of my family or my community or my state or my country... Is there ANY act which I cannot justify by the excuse of pre-emptive self-defense?!?

Posted by: jonroesler | January 14, 2011 7:44 PM | Report abuse

Don't forget the other Palin classic: it's wrong to pass collective blame on a group of people... unless they're Muslim!

Posted by: will12 | January 14, 2011 7:32 PM | Report abuse

'chuckle'

Posted by: bertzel | January 14, 2011 6:15 PM | Report abuse

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