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Posted at 12:00 AM ET, 02/20/2011

Difficult delivery

By Tom Toles

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By Tom Toles  | February 20, 2011; 12:00 AM ET
Categories:  Middle East  
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Comments

No takers on the necessity of taxation, eh? The author was Alexander Hamilton, being quoted from the Federalist Papers.

Hamilton was a Federalist.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 21, 2011 10:53 PM | Report abuse

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PTG

If paying taxes is patriotic I am sure I am a hell of a lot more patriotic than you and you are a hell of a lot more idiotic than I.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 20, 2011 7:01 PM
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Let's debate our patriotism, shall we? But what the heck is your point here?

Posted by: ptgrunner | February 20, 2011 10:21 PM | Report abuse

daly, it does seem to me that you're maybe doing just a teensy bit of cherry-picking yourself, and I wasn't even intending to address any one in particular but only the larger issue... by pointing out the difficulty in "proving" the theory purely by experimentation. The point being that, we have no "control" against which to judge the current situation. Ears burning or something?

Meanwhile, please try to keep in mind the difference between a theory and a hypothesis. Man-caused global warming theory is always subject to disproof, and all the situation requires is an explanation that better fits the facts at hand.

Scientists really have no stake in whether global warming is occurring or not, or whether it is human-caused or not. All scientists really have a stake in is, coming up with the best answers to the facts at hand. I'm sure climate scientists the world over would breathe a deep sigh of relief if there was any real evidence that global warming theory is false, and that we in fact have nothing to worry about. I know I'd feel better; it kinda sucks knowing how hard it is to overcome the inertia of denial of the most powerful country on earth.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 20, 2011 9:15 PM | Report abuse

PTG

If paying taxes is patriotic I am sure I am a hell of a lot more patriotic than you and you are a hell of a lot more idiotic than I.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 20, 2011 7:01 PM | Report abuse

@pararanger22 | February 20, 2011 3:52 AM

Why is it that the U.S. has evolved to be a place where people no longer strive to do better for themselves, but rather try to drag down hard-working people who are only *perceived* to be better off. That's what is happening in WI and with auto-workers. "It's not enough to succeed," Gore Vidal said. "Others must fail." Is that your motto? Instead of trying to pull others down, people should be trying to improve their own situation. Work, education. I suppose that when you are a conservative, the only way to have the perception of parity with others is to drag them down. Crabs in a bucket! I'll say it again: you don't need to deprive people of their collective bargaining rights to balance a state budget. BTW, Reagan ruined CA as well--the wealthy do not have to pay taxes.

We don't know what the Afghans or Iraqis think. We have never asked them. But we do know that slightly less than 1/3 of colonists favored war with England--that was perhaps the first war that we were dragged into. We'll never know what would have happened if we had remained a colony.

The Civil War had absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. Completely internal. No one attacked us. This was another self-inflicted wound, so I should thank you for bringing this up.

WWII is about the only war I can give you, but that war was not fought within the U.S. Hawaii was not part of the U.S. at that time. Do you not understand that?

9/11. The Taliban did not attack us!!!! You understand that, riiiiiight.....? Sure, we've been fighting so long, we've lost sight of any purpose if there ever was one. But suppose we had listened to the warning from the people we call "militants" or extremists (back in the 1990s). They wanted us out of their countries; they wanted us to close military bases in their countries. They correctly saw us as an occupying power. Even before 9/11, I thought "why not pull out of their countries"--the oil will still flow, because it benefits everyone for it to flow. Instead we continued to support authoritarian, non-Democratic, repressive--often brutal--governments. Aren't we the pro-Democracy country? Of course, the answer to that question is "Only when we believe that Democracy benefits *us*, do we actually support it in other countries!"

Actually, I am a Taliban sympathizer. Although wrote I said would have indicated that, you can only arrive at the most extreme notions. I say "notion", because you have not thought things through.

Didn't your father teach you to think? Is the world so bewildering that you can't bring yourself to believe in science, in the right of other countries to self-determination? Is everything you believe just a knee-jerk reaction? That's not patriotic.

Don't forget to pay your taxes. It's patriotic. You might consider sending in about $5,000 extra. That's about the amount of per capita debt that the GOP has stuck us with in FY 2011. And you want *lower* taxes.

Posted by: ptgrunner | February 20, 2011 6:20 PM | Report abuse

The only way to really know is to take a trip over to the 'other' planet Earth, the one that is always exactly on the other side of the sun from our own Earth and which has no human inhabitants but is otherwise exactly like our own, and measure the unspoiled climate there. That, or depend on actual Science; and we all know where that pernicious road leads.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 20, 2011


Here is the bit of REAL SCIENCE that started the change of my mind regarding CAGW. According to IPCC and others one would believe that CO2 measurement started with Keeling. This is false. CO2 in the atmosphere has been measured for nearly 150 years before Keeling. Highly reputable scientists with peer reviewed papers took over 90,000 measurements prior to Keeling. These measurements indicate CO2 levels higher than today.(480 ppmv) These were tossed out and air in ice proxies were substituted for a good fit. Keeling and IPCC tossed the published work of reputable scientists including two Nobel prize winners and substituted ice core bubble proxies. One scientist responsible for 17 major ice core projects questions the accuracy of CO2 ice proxies due to the removal process itself and contamination from drilling fluids. The bottom line is the shape of Keeling's curve becomes meaningless if you include the data sets of actual scientists chemical measurement from 1800 to 1960. IPCC and Keeling cherry picked the start point of CO2 measurement to fit their desired conclusion. So jon I do depend on actual science to follow the road to a correct conclusion regarding man made climate change.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 20, 2011 6:14 PM | Report abuse

What if democracy actually takes hold in the Middle East, and the people vote, and decide they STILL don't care to ally themselves with the United States? Do we simply revert to the business-as-usual of supporting dictators who better serve our national (read "corporate/economic") interests?
Posted by: jonroesler

My Comment...
Democracies supporting dictators is like Christians supporting evil.
They soon become what they abhor.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 20, 2011 4:12 PM | Report abuse

What if democracy actually takes hold in the Middle East, and the people vote, and decide they STILL don't care to ally themselves with the United States? Do we simply revert to the business-as-usual of supporting dictators who better serve our national (read "corporate/economic") interests?

Posted by: jonroesler | February 20, 2011 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Reflecting on the necessity of taxation:

"Ingenious men may declaim with plausibility on any subject; but no human ingenuity can point out any other expedient to rescue us from the inconveniences and embarassments naturally resulting from defective supplies of the public treasury..."

"How is it possible that a government half supplied and always necessitous, can fulfil the purposes of its institution, can provide for the security, advance the prosperity, or support the reputation of the commonwealth? How can it possess either energy or stability, dignity or credit, confidence at home or respectability abroad? How can its administration be anything else than a succession of expedients temporizing, impotent, disgraceful? How will it be able to avoid a frequent sacrifice of its engagements to immediate necessity? How can it undertake or execute any liberal or enlarged plans of public good?"

and

"Reflections of this kind may have trifling weight with men who hope to see realized in America the halcyon scenes of the poetic or fabulous age; but to those who believe we are likely to experience a common portion of the vicissitudes and calamities which have fallen to the lot of other nations, they must appear entitled to serious attention. Such men must behold the actual situation of their country with painful solicitude, and deprecate the evils which ambition or revenge might, with too much facility, inflict upon it."

Anyone care to comment on whether the above, language aside, is nonsensical? Or perhaps no longer applicable? Why, or why not?

Posted by: jonroesler | February 20, 2011 12:35 PM | Report abuse

The recession has ended for wall street and big business. Bonus checks are up to six and seven figures once again and big business is piling up the cash. With majorities in many state houses, Republicans can finally put a gun to the head of organized labor after years of slowly eroding labor union support by converting jobs with benefits to contract labor or shipping the jobs overseas. Because service workers (teachers, police, fireman, government employees) are the last union voice, the beast will be killed once and for all and the middle class eliminated; at least until the gap between the rich and the workers reaches Egyptian proportions. Revolutions occur when the lower classes have no voice in their wages and working conditions, yet this is just what the Wisconsin governor is proposing. In his brazen attempt at union busting under the guise of budget balancing, this governor has refused to negotiate since his plan is to bust the union, and as a sidelight to balance the budget. If the state is broke, then either services must be cut or taxes raised. Simple economics, yet apparently beyond this governor. If state employees have overly generous wages, then add a state surtax of 10% on all income above $50,000. This would balance the budget easily and would share the pain across all of those rich workers.

Posted by: teacher411 | February 20, 2011 3:26 AM

----------------------

I've been listening to the Teacher's Union pity-parties since the late '70s. I didn't buy your bull then and I don't now (could you throw out any more red herrings in one post?). The country and the middle class will do just fine, thank you, after the Teacher's Union is thrown on the ash-heap of US history.

As my fellow bloggers well-know, I don't post web sites. I'll make an exception this time to remind everyone what Teacher's Unions are really all about (check out the embedded video).

http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/25/new-o%E2%80%99keefe-video-shows-teachers-bragging-about-bulletproof-tenure-rules-2/

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 20, 2011 4:19 AM | Report abuse

Interesting that all liberals somehow don't support troops.

My brother is a Vietnam combat vet. Master Sargent, 1st cav, with a bronze star for bravery. When he came back he eventually went to school on the GI Bill (a government program), got a Master's degree in counseling, and had been counseling vets for the Vet Center until he retired last year. One of the reasons he retired was because the Vet Centers sold out to Obama and for the first time started counseling active duty soldiers. My brother wanted to have nothing to do with trying to "reprogram" soldiers (his word) to go back and kill again. He enjoyed the job of helping soldiers reacclimate to civilan life and wanted no part in what the Vet Centers were starting to do.

I consider what he did for many many years, to be supporting the troops about the best way a civilian could. And he is about as "liberal" as they come. And he believes the wars we are involved in today are just as pointless, and...just like the war he was in...never should have been fought in the first place.

Posted by: PrairieDog60

---------------------

I'm appreciative that your brother served. He is entitled; has earned the right to his opinions.

I find it fascinating that because a Soldier is still on active duty, he is not worth the time of a Vet counselor. What could be more time-worthy? The reprogramming aspect is just silly.

Iraq and Afghanistan are not pointless wars and they are galaxies away from the complete nonsense of Vietnam.

BTW, Bronze Stars are awarded for service and/or valor in a combat zone. Your brother's bronze star is a noteworthy accomplishment, regardless. If your brother has a 'V' device on his Bronze Star, that is truly the mark of an act of special bravery on his part.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 20, 2011 4:02 AM | Report abuse

@pararanger22 | February 19, 2011 7:05 PM

I suppose you would be happy paying no taxes. In reality, so would I. But the bigger reality is that in order to have a properly functioning country, we need to pay taxes.

Clearly Walker does not have to deprive state employees of collective bargaining rights in order to get concessions from them. I don't really see how the GOP will gain in the long term, but I suppose they can benefit if they can blame all this on Democrats. How will that work?!?! This all may turn on the GOP and the Tea Party.

The dishonesty in Afghanistan is that neither the Taliban nor Afghanistan attacked us. They probably knew nothing about 9/11 until after it happened. The attackers were not from Afghanistan and they trained here. The Taliban are fighting and dying in THEIR country for THEIR country, something the people of the US have never had to do. There was nothing honest about Afghanistan OR Iraq.

Posted by: ptgrunner

----------------------

Yes, ptg, we all have to pay taxes. But no, ptg, we shouldn't have to pay the amount we do and we shouldn't have to pay more. We throw away so much cash for so many stupid programs and so many worthless 'big ideas'. The Liberal answer to taxes is always 'tax more.' Liberal appetite for taxes is insatiable.

The Wisconsin fight is worth everything the GOP has in its arsenal. Public sector unions are ruining the country (look what they've done to California).

Interesting that you reveal that you are a Taliban sympathizer. OBL lived and trained and hatched his plans in Afghanistan with the consent of the Taliban. Any other conclusion is bending the facts; 'conspiracy theory' bull on your part. The Taliban Regime was asked repeatedly before we attacked them to renounce terrorism and give up OBL and his retinue. Their repressive regime didn't even offer a response. Fighting for their country? They are fighting for power - the power to unleash their evil way of life over every man, woman, and child in Afghanistan and reestablish safe harbor for AQ. And you support that? What kind of immoral nit-wit are you? You support the Taliban for some kind of political argument?

I love this quote:

"The Taliban are fighting and dying in THEIR country for THEIR country, something the people of the US have never had to do."

George Washington and a lot of brave, aspiring Americans fought for our country, in our country. The Union and the Confederacy fought for our country, in our country. Does the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese ring a bell? How about 9/11 - didn't Americans die in that attack? You can't bridge the mental gap you have to know that when we were landing in France, we were fighting and dying for our country? There are plots of land all over Normandy that France gave to America (thus part of 'our country), the ones with the small crosses everywhere.


Posted by: pararanger22 | February 20, 2011 3:52 AM | Report abuse

The recession has ended for wall street and big business. Bonus checks are up to six and seven figures once again and big business is piling up the cash. With majorities in many state houses, Republicans can finally put a gun to the head of organized labor after years of slowly eroding labor union support by converting jobs with benefits to contract labor or shipping the jobs overseas. Because service workers (teachers, police, fireman, government employees) are the last union voice, the beast will be killed once and for all and the middle class eliminated; at least until the gap between the rich and the workers reaches Egyptian proportions. Revolutions occur when the lower classes have no voice in their wages and working conditions, yet this is just what the Wisconsin governor is proposing. In his brazen attempt at union busting under the guise of budget balancing, this governor has refused to negotiate since his plan is to bust the union, and as a sidelight to balance the budget. If the state is broke, then either services must be cut or taxes raised. Simple economics, yet apparently beyond this governor. If state employees have overly generous wages, then add a state surtax of 10% on all income above $50,000. This would balance the budget easily and would share the pain across all of those rich workers.

Posted by: teacher411 | February 20, 2011 3:26 AM | Report abuse

Interesting that all liberals somehow don't support troops.

My brother is a Vietnam combat vet. Master Sargent, 1st cav, with a bronze star for bravery. When he came back he eventually went to school on the GI Bill (a government program), got a Master's degree in counseling, and had been counseling vets for the Vet Center until he retired last year. One of the reasons he retired was because the Vet Centers sold out to Obama and for the first time started counseling active duty soldiers. My brother wanted to have nothing to do with trying to "reprogram" soldiers (his word) to go back and kill again. He enjoyed the job of helping soldiers reacclimate to civilan life and wanted no part in what the Vet Centers were starting to do.

I consider what he did for many many years, to be supporting the troops about the best way a civilian could. And he is about as "liberal" as they come. And he believes the wars we are involved in today are just as pointless, and...just like the war he was in...never should have been fought in the first place.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | February 20, 2011 2:12 AM | Report abuse

There is nothing like grabbing a bite while looking for the green light and knowing you are not a spotlight as a graduate from the University of Columbus along side the Airport.

Posted by: billybeer6 | February 19, 2011 9:02 PM | Report abuse

After Wisconsin and Obamacare is gone the next good thing that's going to happen is the Ten Commandments and prayer back in public school. The nation is getting tired of the COMMUNIST ACLU.

Posted by: billybeer6 | February 19, 2011 8:51 PM | Report abuse

@pararanger22 | February 19, 2011 7:05 PM

I suppose you would be happy paying no taxes. In reality, so would I. But the bigger reality is that in order to have a properly functioning country, we need to pay taxes. We don't need any more pointless Vietnams, Iraqs or Afghanistans. What did we accomplish in Vietnam? 58,000 Americans killed, millions of Southeast Asians killed, and we lost the war. "No war is perfect", you say? We gained nothing; the Vietnamese got their country back. Didn't your father tell you that? I suppose that it's hard for a man who did 4 tours of duty to admit that it was all for nothing.

The GOP created our debt "crisis" for the purpose of cutting taxes on the wealthy, destroying unions, and gutting the middle class. Clearly Walker does not have to deprive state employees of collective bargaining rights in order to get concessions from them. I don't really see how the GOP will gain in the long term, but I suppose they can benefit if they can blame all this on Democrats. How will that work?!?! This all may turn on the GOP and the Tea Party.

The dishonesty in Afghanistan is that neither the Taliban nor Afghanistan attacked us. They probably knew nothing about 9/11 until after it happened. The attackers were not from Afghanistan and they trained here. The Taliban are fighting and dying in THEIR country for THEIR country, something the people of the US have never had to do. There was nothing honest about Afghanistan OR Iraq.

Posted by: ptgrunner | February 19, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

My Reply...
The government only distributes what ever wealth it gets in taxes and that wealth should be used to maintain a quality society. Government must spend money as required to maintain justice and equity.
The government can tax people into poverty and waste money, resources and lives on bridges to no where, endless and meaningless wars while starting wars insteading of ending wars.
If you want hell on earth just stick with a corrupt government that steals from the poor and gives to the rich and has no moral decency. Poverty is not freedom; it is slavery. War is not a solution; it is a waste of resources and lives.
It is cooperation, sufficient funds and efficient management that makes freedom possible.
Heroes defend the lives of their people not destroy their lives.
Traitors undermine the stability of their nation with bad ideas and even worse actions.
Everyone depends on the ability of their nation to provide the goods and services that make lives viable.
Without sufficient funds, the economy fails and the nation goes into chaos.
Your ideas stink of death and destruction.
Dave

Posted by: OchamsRazor

-----------------------

Interesting post. Living proof you can still type after a few Valium and a bottle of JD.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 19, 2011 7:05 PM | Report abuse

Wow. 235 years of fighting for and securing freedom but we'll just let the government distribute wealth any ole way they want. Monarchies, dictatorships - they can do that too. Who needs wages anyway - just let the government run everything.
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, right Janis?
Posted by: pararanger22

My Reply...
The government only distributes what ever wealth it gets in taxes and that wealth should be used to maintain a quality society. Government must spend money as required to maintain justice and equity.
The government can tax people into poverty and waste money, resources and lives on bridges to no where, endless and meaningless wars while starting wars insteading of ending wars.
If you want hell on earth just stick with a corrupt government that steals from the poor and gives to the rich and has no moral decency. Poverty is not freedom; it is slavery. War is not a solution; it is a waste of resources and lives.
It is cooperation, sufficient funds and efficient management that makes freedom possible.
Heroes defend the lives of their people not destroy their lives.
Traitors undermine the stability of their nation with bad ideas and even worse actions.
Everyone depends on the ability of their nation to provide the goods and services that make lives viable.
Without sufficient funds, the economy fails and the nation goes into chaos.
Your ideas stink of death and destruction.
Dave

Posted by: OchamsRazor | February 19, 2011 2:00 PM | Report abuse

@pararanger

As for Reagan, I lived through his presidency and things were not so hot. Deregulated S&Ls gave us the S&L crisis that tax payers had to foot the bill for. Unemployment higher than now. An accumulation of national debt unmatched by any previous post-WWII president, even though Congress passed budgets that had LESS spending than Reagan requested in HIS budgets. Reagan and Bush 2 are why we cannot deal with the country's fundamental problems now--we're too far in debt and the Republicans use the debt that they accumulated as a political weapon to obstruct government . Republicans now promise us more of the same debt and poor government services that Reagan and Bush gave us. If you remember the Reagan era as "good times for all", you remember incorrectly. What little social justice we've seen and and little progress we've made since 1980, has been under Clinton and Obama.

Last, my father did his duty in WWII--one of the first over to the South Pacific and one of last home. He came home pretty wrecked, but he had a good take on war. He thought it may sometimes be necessary. But he also thought that there was nothing noble about it--it was dirty, ugly, cruel, disgusting business. It takes a pretty sick person to see nothing but nobility and glory in war. It takes a pretty sick person to be a Tea Partyer.

Posted by: ptgrunner

---------------------

1 - I'm glad you served but you learned the wrong lessons about war. No war is perfect; but you generalize too much. And until you prove there were unreported My Lais, given you didn't serve in that theater you should stick to Germany stories.

2 - My Dad didn't buy the BS about the reasons for the Vietnam War. But he did his duty; there was always hope something good would come of it...and that our leaders would sort it out. Sometimes Soldiers are just buying time for the President to work things out for the best.

2 - My Grandfather served in the OSS in WWII; my Dad as an Infantryman in Vietnam; me in Iraq...none of us came away from war with the jaded attitude that Liberals (not all Democrats are Liberals - many support the troops) seem to love, that gives them an excuse to hate the military. Combat service wasn't about nobility (and I have never claimed that here or anywhere else). It was about duty, and protecting those that we served with.

3 - Tell me, ptgrunner, where is the dishonesty in Afghanistan?

4 - The GOP is slashing 61B from the budget. How is that promising more debt?

5 - Your Reagan experience was of your own accord. There was plenty of opportunity during his tenure.

Your last comment about Tea Partyers and your back-handed slap equating my posts about war to some kind of glory-hunt are complete bull. You know very little about war; you know even less about manhood. And you know nothing of the value of being an American. Ronald Reagan knew of that value and that's why he'll always be the better warrior, the better man, and the better American compared to you.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 19, 2011 12:46 PM | Report abuse

As this country moves farther and farther from a democracy to a plutocracy, we might find it instructive to re-read some of the insights of our predecessors on the planet.

I offer up the words of a German pastor, imprisoned during the last seven years of the Nazi Reich for his views and a comment by an English writer and thinker:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

- Martin Niemoller
------------------------
That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that History has to teach.

- Aldous Huxley
------------------------

I do not believe the country's lurch to the right to be akin to the Holocaust, but I have concerns when I see the profound income inequality in the country where the top 400 individuals control the same amount of resources as the bottom 100,000,000.

Looking at Niemoller's words, in the last few weeks, the actions in Wisconsin chillingly resonate with his second paragraph. Two down and two to go...

I fear the arrow from the Tea Party through Citizens United and now Madison could soon point to something each of us individually cares about deeply.

I close with the famous Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times.

Posted by: DougMUSN | February 19, 2011 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Ockamsrazor wrote:

The government is supposed to regulate the distibution of wealth and make sure that there is enough available funds to maintain an efficient exchange of goods and services.

---------------------

Wow. 235 years of fighting for and securing freedom but we'll just let the government distribute wealth any ole way they want. Monarchies, dictatorships - they can do that too. Who needs wages anyway - just let the government run everything.

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, right Janis?

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 19, 2011 12:24 PM | Report abuse

The disturbing thing is - there are a lot of people over there, who hope to be voting soon, who still believe in Jinn.
And they listen to people for whom belief in Jinn is part and parcel of religious doctrine. Not unlike how belief that the world is six thousand years old is a tenet of some of the more atavistic sects in this country.

Posted by: Capn0ok1 | February 19, 2011 8:27 AM | Report abuse

To Timid Toles...
What have you got against people who no longer want to be cheated by those who are in control of the money?
The government is supposed to regulate the distibution of wealth and make sure that there is enough available funds to maintain an efficient exchange of goods and services.
It is the responsibility of the citizens to see that the government does what it is intended to do.
The working people have had to fight for fair wages and better working conditions since day one.
Without the courage to resist corruption and greed; people's lives will become intolerable.
Dave

Posted by: OchamsRazor | February 19, 2011 1:39 AM | Report abuse

fu...good song.

Posted by: bertzel | February 18, 2011 10:47 PM | Report abuse

dit dit dot dot......dit dit dot dot ...... is anyone listeing ?....freedom is breaking out in Wisonsin ...but the nea, obama and public secter unions are suppresing us....

Posted by: jornolibist | February 18, 2011 10:04 PM | Report abuse

Wow! A Jinn with a sixpack! I'm impressed!!
guess that's 2?

Posted by: bertzel | February 18, 2011 8:11 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Toles with the rest of the USA have a very short attention span. They tend to give up on anything "in progress."

Wait and see, Mr. Toles.

Even our workers will get back to work.

Posted by: GaryEMasters | February 18, 2011 4:49 PM | Report abuse

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