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Posted at 12:00 AM ET, 02/25/2011

Go away

By Tom Toles

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Friday rant: Doesn't add up edition

I think I'm seeing a large overlap between people who don't accept evolution, people who don't accept climate science and also the supposedly deficit-obsessed Tea Party. Correct me if I am wrong here. I attribute this to a certain underdeveloped aptitude in processing data. Case in point: The Big Deficit Menace. If people were serious about this topic and took any pains to understand it, the conversation would be all about the two important aspects of the problem: Medicare and tax increases. Any conversation that isn't about these two things isn't about fixing The Big Deficit Menace, and anyone who pretends otherwise is either pretending or afflicted with the aforementioned data-processing deficiency.

Irony of ironies: People who don't believe in evolution are the most avid advocates for Social Darwinism. Their real concern with The Big Deficit Menace is the galling idea that some funds are making their way to the Undeserving. This is also their problem with health-care reform. Their solution to health care is that if you happen to be both sick and Undeserving, you should just go off somewhere and...well, just go off somewhere where we won't see. Why do I say that? Because I've been following political debates for a while now. Go ahead, argue with me if you want.

So while there is no such thing as evolution, to the victors go the spoils, and cut loose the Undeserving. This also seems to be the position of those who want to get religion back into politics. --Tom Toles

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By Tom Toles  | February 25, 2011; 12:00 AM ET
Categories:  International  
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Comments

This is ridiculous. Where do people think that the money for such socially-based programs came from? Do you think the money came from God? It was just another form of taxation to help the poor, except that it also helped to fund religious institutions. Or - do you think that the history of the Catholic Church suggests that their primary purpose for 800 years was to support the poor?

Such organizations still exist - but people lack the money to pay for them because their wages are going DOWN, their houses are being foreclosed and their life savings are being stolen by Wall Street.

Toles spouts more fact and reality than most people out there. That's why we read.

-----------------------------------

Please no offense : oc1dean no intent to wisecrack your situation. Just this whole Toles rant post stinks today. Back in the day before the Great Society liberal experiment when people went to church and believed in God (now they worship 'science') people took care of each other. There were fraternal organizations and mercy hospitals and a much closer connection with those in need. Now it is Governments job and the reality is government really insulates problems and hides them away by sending money along and create some program.

Posted by: aaronweiner | February 28, 2011 9:29 AM | Report abuse

~~~The objective of life is joy and that abundant not greed and avarice.
Loving one another is the solution to hate and discontent.
“God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who so ever believe in Him shall not parish but have ever lasting life.” That is a worthwhile belief.
It is most likely that God created us in His image so that we would be acceptable in His sight. We also have intelligence as God has intelligence to share his attributes. We also have a free will as God has a free will. The big difference is that we are the created and He is the creator. Our arrogance is as filthy rags.
Dave
Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 27, 20112:03 AM~~~

dave, I agree with some of your 'insight'. The points above tho are indeed clouded by your 'Christian' religion....and I do not agree with those points in particular. Please note...I am not anti christian per se...I am anti religion and that is where you are pulling some of your 'insight' from.

Posted by: bertzel | February 27, 2011 10:15 AM | Report abuse

~~~The possibilities are endless.
Dave
Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 26, 2011 1:31 AM ~~~
In other words...you have no clue. Just as I thought.

My Reply...
There are plenty of clues but first you have to accept the obvious.
All we have to work with is what we observe and how it functions.
We must analyze what ever other people have observed and determine if it is consistent with what ever we have observed.
What we observe is everything that we have experienced and everything that we have learned. It is a matter of nurture and nature.
From what we have observed; we arrive at what we do to function within the reality that we experience.
We can be intelligent and wise or ignorant and foolish. All people do a combination of these factors or one ore the other or a combination of these factors depending on the situation.
People depend on their intelligence to survive and even this factor is often ignored.
I have stood in the light and obsorbed its brilliance.
I try to share that light But the darkness prevails and so many people feel the pain of darkness yet resist the light.
Many things are not what they should be.
Reality is not perfect but it is what we have to deal with if we want to survive.
The objective of life is joy and that abundant not greed and avarice.
Loving one another is the solution to hate and discontent.
“God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who so ever believe in Him shall not parish but have ever lasting life.” That is a worthwhile belief.
It is most likely that God created us in His image so that we would be acceptable in His sight. We also have intelligence as God has intelligence to share his attributes. We also have a free will as God has a free will. The big difference is that we are the created and He is the creator. Our arrogance is as filthy rags.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 27, 2011 2:03 AM | Report abuse

~~Hmmm....never mentioned religion - why is everyone picking on me on religion? :)

Everyone who complains about religion can FIND something to complain about. Most churches I've been too weren't perfect - but were overall pretty good.

Prayer works; eases my mind - yes - but relieves my soul. That's more important. If you believe in God - how do you talk to him? Anyway, most Soldiers & Dads have lots of reasons to talk to God. Prayer comes natural.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 6:32 PM ~~

You did not mention religion but you did mention prayer.

How does prayer relieve your soul?
I don't "talk" to God. I 'see' God.
Why do you refer to God as a him?
Why do you place God in the physical form of any type of human being? Why would anyone categorize God in that way? Seems a bit arrogant don't you think?
Why don't 'soldiers and dads' find comfort in eachother and/or talk to others like them? What about moms ranger? Don't they fit in with 'your club'??
Not attacking ranger,
Just curious ...

Posted by: bertzel | February 26, 2011 11:48 AM | Report abuse

~~~Jon

I think you and I are on the same page more than either of us realizes.
Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 9:50 PM~~~

Why would you post the above if you don't realize it??? Strange....

Posted by: bertzel | February 26, 2011 11:33 AM | Report abuse

~~~The possibilities are endless.
Dave
Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 26, 2011 1:31 AM ~~~

In other words...you have no clue. Just as I thought.

jonroesler- your dream of the future of humanity is nice...really. Few major problems tho.
Religion.
No money.
No jobs.
No support.
Requires one 'order'.

Good luck in breaking through those barriers.

Posted by: bertzel | February 26, 2011 11:29 AM | Report abuse

Tell me SageThrasher, Do you believe in the big bang theory? If so, what do you believe caused it? Just curious because I have yet to get a response from anyone I pose that question to.
Posted by: bertzel

My response to the Big Bang Theory is that big bangs come and go.
They are no more than the continual formation of stars and galaxies.

It is all about physical reality reinventing itself.

Evolution is an ongoing process without beginning or end. Evolution is a constant transition of matter throughout space creating all of the possibilities of form and function.

There is the rational and the irrational as well as the ordered and the chaotic.

There is the comprehendible and the mysterious.

It is a masterpiece of the designed and of random chance.

The possibilities are endless.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 26, 2011 1:31 AM | Report abuse

Barking close to the right tree.Us libs call it Social Darwinism but it's really Secular Damnation.Evolution does not care what's "deserving" only what works well enough not to go extinct;the creator creates the good and bad and then rewards one and punishes the other (which is pretty psychotic, actually).Ideas that evolution is "going someplace" or has purpose are hangovers from the creationist past. If there were really any social Darwinism, it would favor the development of new methods of survival--i.e. niches--like syndicalism, co-ops, etc, just as bioDarwinism favored development of cooperation,loyalty,symbiosis, and altruism (along with parasitism and disease; remember, the point of evolution is there is NO purpose and it doesn't CARE; there's no one to do the caring).

So unfortunately the "let'em freeze in the snow" GOPs.o.b's are perfectly consistent. They don't think making the poor starve will make them stop being poor (or otherwise eliminate them). They just think that having created poor people, capitalism, like Jehovah, should now punish its creations.

Posted by: PasserThru | February 25, 2011 10:30 PM | Report abuse

Jon

I think you and I are on the same page more than either of us realizes.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 9:50 PM | Report abuse

Daly, how about if we pay people to work, requiring them to show up and pass drug tests in order to receive money, provide the jobs for them (paid for with tax dollars but we get something in return), and also provide decent daycare and education for their children? I have no problem with requiring responsibility; what I have a problem with is cutting off support to children in order to punish their parents. It is neither productive nor morally sound.

Regardless of their situation, nobody deserves to be simply thrown out onto the street. We're better than that.

If the system is in need of repair, and I agree that it is, then let's find ways to fix it.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 25, 2011 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Ranger, I'm slinging the whole religion thing in general. Religion does exactly nothing that cannot be done by the people at large, except that each religion does it in the name of their God and gives God the credit. Which I think is kinda sad, because it's the boots on the ground doing the actual work and credit isn't being given where credit is due.

The other side of that, of course, is that religion is used to justify whatever prejudices a group happens to embrace.

Prayer works? For what?

Tell you what, LBJ's Great Society programs, for all their warts, have done a lot more good than prayer ever has.

If prayer works, why doesn't God heal amputees? Much less society at large? Again, if we set the same standards for God that we do for what you and others call "failed" liberal programs, the liberal programs win every single time.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 25, 2011 9:28 PM | Report abuse

"This also seems to be the position of those who want to get religion back into politics."

Well of course, because what this is is religious thinking!

Posted by: mmyotis | February 25, 2011 9:25 PM | Report abuse

Jon

I have only a minute but I will try to revisit this with you.

For me it is not about the money, it is about the social engineering the money creates. A different approach would be to to require participation from fathers and create pride in their children. Government social programs often are adversarial and are similar to going to traffic court. There are better ways to help people. Paying people to stay home is just creating a permanent underclass and they are not very happy.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 9:22 PM | Report abuse

daly, good point on the fatherless children qualifying mothers for aid and the way it started... BUT. The "but" being, is this really an important component of the cost of welfare, or of aid to dependent children? And how is cutting them off any kind of solution? It solves the money problem for taxpayers, I guess, but makes the poor poorer.

Seems like we can do better than selfishness, and the thing I can't wrap my mind around is, why can't society at large take over where churches obviously leave off, and make church aid unnecessary? Why make membership in any group except the group called "the American people" a prerequisite for help from the American people?

The Mormon church has an excellent model going for aid to members, but only for members. We could use the same model for members of our society at large, and it seems to me to be incumbent on ALL of us, not only church members, to take care of our fellow human beings.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 25, 2011 8:53 PM | Report abuse

You Stay focused Dave!
Posted by: bertzel
You're arguing with someone who is missing some of his '0's and '1's dude.
Posted by: pararanger22

My Retort...
You two may be a couple of cyborgs that run on binary systems that are bi-polar.
As for me; I prefer the continuity of human singularity.

I get real tired of trying to get through to you due to your faulty circuitry.
You should at least know the difference between a cause and an effect.

If you can't be nice at least be realistic.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 25, 2011 8:06 PM | Report abuse

You Stay focused Dave!
Posted by: bertzel
You're arguing with someone who is missing some of his '0's and '1's dude.
Posted by: pararanger22

My Retort...
You two may be a couple of cyborgs that run on binary systems that are bi-polar.
As for me; I prefer the countinuity of human singularity.

I get real tired of trying to get through to you due to your faulty circuitry.
You should at least know the difference between a cause and an effect.

If you can't be nice at least be realistic.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 25, 2011 8:05 PM | Report abuse

~~But prayer works. ~~~

ranger...what exactly does prayer do? Ease your mind?
Religion does more harm than good concerning society as a whole. It creates division, discourse, powerstruggles, hatred, intolerance, guilt,self loathing, sexual frustration and or guilt, discrimination, and of course war. I'm sure I missed quite a few others.
One does not require religion to do charitable work.
God is one thing...religion is another.

Posted by: bertzel

-------------------

Hmmm....never mentioned religion - why is everyone picking on me on religion? :)

Everyone who complains about religion can FIND something to complain about. Most churches I've been too weren't perfect - but were overall pretty good.

Prayer works; eases my mind - yes - but relieves my soul. That's more important. If you believe in God - how do you talk to him? Anyway, most Soldiers & Dads have lots of reasons to talk to God. Prayer comes natural.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 6:32 PM | Report abuse

~~~This condition did not exist until we started paying rent for mothers but only if dad is not there and sending checks to mothers and you get a raise if you have another child. ~~~

Hmm....well that certainly sheds some light where you are concerned....interesting.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 5:27 PM | Report abuse

~~But prayer works. ~~~

ranger...what exactly does prayer do? Ease your mind?
Religion does more harm than good concerning society as a whole. It creates division, discourse, powerstruggles, hatred, intolerance, guilt,self loathing, sexual frustration and or guilt, discrimination, and of course war. I'm sure I missed quite a few others.
One does not require religion to do charitable work.
God is one thing...religion is another.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 5:23 PM | Report abuse

@jonroesler Save your breath. You're debating the same type of people (bertzel, dalyplanet, pararanger) Tom referred to as having "a certain underdeveloped aptitude in processing data." Their posts are content free insults to other people.

Taking pararanger, who uses terms such as "weak-minded dimwit Liberal full of malcontent", "idiot", "dope", and "coward" anonymously when referring to other people. Does pararanger NOT see hypocrisy in doing this? Are bertzel, dalyplanet, and pararanger here only because they can publicly and anonymously post outrageous and insulting comments. It seems that way. This behavior is not an exchange of ideas or a debate.

Posted by: ptgrunner

------------------------

Sure. You can write lie after lie about US history and that's the quality of a master debater? For a guy who claims he served in the Army, I'm sure you've heard worse so I'm so sorry for hurting your delicate, flower-petal-like feelings.

Have a juice box and a nap. You'll feel better.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 4:30 PM | Report abuse

jon

~~~there are entire neighborhoods with 90% unemployment and children with no fathers..~~~

This condition did not exist until we started paying rent for mothers but only if dad is not there and sending checks to mothers and you get a raise if you have another child.

The idea was good, the execution has some dark unintended consequences. There has to be a portion of these services that get out from management of the status quo.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 4:23 PM | Report abuse

Oops. Sorry for opening that gate, bert.

Ranger, LBJ's Great Society initiative aimed at proving that our system is better than any of the communist systems... that we can do a better job of providing for the health, welfare, education, etc. of our people than under any communist (or socialist, for that matter) system... showing people who were on the fence about communism/socialism that OUR system works best.

And here you are, and daly, talking about how our system failed out of one side of your mouth and how it is wonderful out of the other side.

My point is that government IS the community at work, and that drying up the resources in place to begin to address these issues isn't exactly the best way to make them successful. Further, it is an excellent measure of the real commitment of people to the general welfare.

On the subject of religious people doing such an excellent job, well, religion has been around for a LONG time, and I'm not aware that the U.S. government has prevented religions in the U.S. from solving the problem of poverty.

Poverty, hunger and war still exist and, as has been pointed out, there are entire neighborhoods with 90% unemployment and children with no fathers... it seems that religion, including the power of prayer, has failed.

Posted by: jonroesler

--------------------

LBJ was a master politician. If he and other Democrats had a legitimate vision for the betterment of all Americans, it was lost by Democrats who used it to influence votes by creating a dependency on Great Society programs. It's an oft used argument of mine but it's valid. Great ideology, perhaps; but delivered to pad Democrat vote totals.

Government can be a force for good, agreed. I thought America elected Obama to clean up government; make it more transparent. Didn't work out so well. For me, the federal government is completely bloated with useless programs. Surely we need some belt-tightening & some program canceling. Yes, even in Defense.

Not sure why you're slinging the comment on religion at me. But prayer works. We've moved away from God and family too much as a Nation; I'm sure we'll move back over time.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Yes..I've had a few disappearing posts as well like the one I sent in a few minutes ago...It will be there after I post now tho!!

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 4:13 PM | Report abuse

~~Oops. Sorry for opening that gate, bert.

jonroesler~~~

No apologies necessary jon. I respect your point of view. May not totally agree with everything but respect it and can relate.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 4:08 PM | Report abuse

jon

I don't know how you could bend and twist what I said so much. I an saying that three distinct parts of government have conspired to prevent implementation of a new successful way of teaching a community of students by manipulating state law.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Amen! Thanks!

Posted by: lufrank1 | February 25, 2011 4:01 PM | Report abuse

My post went away !!! You are correct bertzel the TIZA teachers and many private school and some charter teachers are not part of the union.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 4:01 PM | Report abuse

Bertzel you are correct. The TIZA teachers are not in the union and many charter school teachers and private are not.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 3:52 PM | Report abuse

Oops. Sorry for opening that gate, bert.

Ranger, LBJ's Great Society initiative aimed at proving that our system is better than any of the communist systems... that we can do a better job of providing for the health, welfare, education, etc. of our people than under any communist (or socialist, for that matter) system... showing people who were on the fence about communism/socialism that OUR system works best.

And here you are, and daly, talking about how our system failed out of one side of your mouth and how it is wonderful out of the other side.

My point is that government IS the community at work, and that drying up the resources in place to begin to address these issues isn't exactly the best way to make them successful. Further, it is an excellent measure of the real commitment of people to the general welfare.

On the subject of religious people doing such an excellent job, well, religion has been around for a LONG time, and I'm not aware that the U.S. government has prevented religions in the U.S. from solving the problem of poverty.

Poverty, hunger and war still exist and, as has been pointed out, there are entire neighborhoods with 90% unemployment and children with no fathers... it seems that religion, including the power of prayer, has failed.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 25, 2011 3:52 PM | Report abuse

~~~Posted by: ptgrunner~~~

Hey grunner...I've been quite nice on this blog...only attack when attacked...so BITE ME!

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 3:51 PM | Report abuse

Referring to daly's, "Bush may end up the being the smartest President we ever had. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it..." NICE job of proving Tole's point for him.

Posted by: jonroesler

---------------------

Bush's policy and persistence kept you and your family safe every day of his Presidency after 9/11. You don't have to believe it but I know it's true.

Smart? A lot smarter than anyone gives him credit for - memory like a trap and better grades than John Kerry. But it's his policies and leadership that will be the ultimate test of how folks remember him in future generations. We'll smoke that when the time comes.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 3:51 PM | Report abuse

~~~~~Obama and the Democrats in Congress accomplished more good than the previous administration did in 8 years~~~~~

Only time will tell. That thing we had in Iraq may have a little to do with the revolution in another nearby part of the world right now. Depending on the outcome Bush may end up the being the smartest President we ever had. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it. Of course it may take a while to shake out. And you would NEVER admit to it.

Posted by: dalyplanet

It is not fair to post that sentence out of context

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 3:49 PM | Report abuse

~~ and of course none of the teachers in any charter school are part of the union. dalyplanet~~~

That is a false statement.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 3:48 PM | Report abuse

@jonroesler Save your breath. You're debating the same type of people (bertzel, dalyplanet, pararanger) Tom referred to as having "a certain underdeveloped aptitude in processing data." Their posts are content free insults to other people.

Taking pararanger, who uses terms such as "weak-minded dimwit Liberal full of malcontent", "idiot", "dope", and "coward" anonymously when referring to other people. Does pararanger NOT see hypocrisy in doing this? Are bertzel, dalyplanet, and pararanger here only because they can publicly and anonymously post outrageous and insulting comments. It seems that way. This behavior is not an exchange of ideas or a debate.

Posted by: ptgrunner | February 25, 2011 3:47 PM | Report abuse

jon

I see Al Gore predicting vociferously Sauna Earth, and if only we start to trade carbon caps and buy carbon offsets we will 'save the planet' !!! And by the way I Al Gore have this company that trades carbon caps and sells carbon offsets helping you all 'save the planet' !!!

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 3:45 PM | Report abuse

Bert, I wasn't addressing you with my post. Sorry if it seemed that way because of the order of responses; I just came on and began reading and was responding to one much earlier posted by our friend dalyplanet about the failure of the Great Society.

And Bert... you didn't include quite all of the military component in your comments about our national economy. When you throw in the military portion of debt (cost of past wars paid for with borrowed money), along with health care and retirement benefits for veterans, etc., the total "defense" portion tallies up to roughly 40% of the national budget.

Referring to daly's, "Bush may end up the being the smartest President we ever had. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it..." NICE job of proving Tole's point for him.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 25, 2011 3:35 PM | Report abuse

The hi expense of Medicare seems to be in large part due to the percentage of participants who are OLD. The older the average patient the higher the average cost of care. If we increase the age of eligibility the problem becomes worse! We need younger participants! Start LOWERING the age of eligibility, perhaps drop it 6 months each year. This will spread the increase gradually to avoid the need for a dramatic increase in overhead and administrative costs.If this is found to be successful and supported by the voters, the rate of change might be increased.

Posted by: unklecrl22 | February 25, 2011 3:34 PM | Report abuse

jon

Where is defunded in anything I said. Just pointing out it has not worked as planned.

Another example, TIZA is a charter school for poor Muslims students. It is very successful in all standard school metrics but it does have a religious component. Liberals HATE that especially the liberal teachers union so they got the ACLU after them and the school will likely loose it's funding and be on the hook for millions in legal fees thus closing the school. The liberal legislature at the time could have expanded the definition of a charter school expanding choices for students that traditionally have trouble succeeding but in fact narrowed the definition. The teachers union lobbied for a tighter definition and of course none of the teachers in any charter school are part of the union. These types of situations make it clear to me that when the rubber hits the road Liberals are not concerned with improving the lives and education of these students but only maintaining complete control of the educational system.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 3:27 PM | Report abuse

way to change topic to climate debate jon....have fun.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 3:22 PM | Report abuse

So... The great social safety net LBJ tried to fashion in order to prove to the rest of the world that the American system works better than communism should be DE-funded because it isn't doing a good job, and DE-funding what little safety net we have will somehow BETTER serve our people?

Kinda like spending less on schools will make the schools better; spending less on public works will make public works better; spending less on pretty much anything the government does will make pretty much everything the government does work better?!? Huh?

Or, it will work worse, in which case the response will be, "See? That program doesn't work even as well as it did before, so it should be killed entirely."

Except in the case of military (oops, I should have used the politically correct term "defense") spening, in which case more is better, and the more pork content the better.

Wow. Just... wow.

Posted by: jonroesler

----------------------

Johnson's Great Society was the American Socialist experiment. It didn't pan out so well. Liberals on this blog always blame Republicans for it because they're thin-skinned and can't convince themselves of the truth: the experiment failed. The UK, France, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain: the experiment failed.

In regard to 'defunding' these programs, that is a valid concern and I share it: the GOP should take on these social programs and the Dems that endorse them head-on instead of starving them to death. Why do they prefer 'starvation'? Because of the way the Dems demagogue any GOP attempts to reign in social spending. Within nanoseconds of any serious proposal, every Liberal columnist and the entire Democrat machine would be putting grandma and junior front and center of every TV camera and newspaper, propagandizing that grandma will starve and junior won't get his operation due to the cold-hearted GOP.

Our schools need money ONLY if it's attached to LEADERSHIP. It does no good to keep throwing money at teachers as long as the union maintains the 'first in/last out' policy. Case in point: Michele Rhee cleaned up DC schools. Fired a bunch of useless teachers. Guess what? They're all rehired again because of a Liberal judge. And what did Mayor Fenty and Ms. Rhee get for their efforts? They're out. If I could deny ANY of my tax dollars from going to DC, the home of LIBERALISM-GONE-SO-WRONG, I would do it.

Every program deserves a A-to-Zed review in these fiscally challenging times, don't you think?

Defense spending is a unique issue in our country. All 50 states benefit from defense spending. When you cut a program, you cut jobs in some Congressman's district. This process has made us very strong; but it's difficult to cut back, true. Secretary Gates has been trying to cut programs left and right (with some success) and most of the military leadership has bought in. Hard to cut back during this kind of war but it's time to do it, regardless.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 3:22 PM | Report abuse

It is truly ironic that those with the ability to see clearly beyond the Al Gore vision of catastrophic climate change and the carbon credit exchange and carbon offset plan for the cure are the ones accused of wearing the 16th century 'thinking hat'.
Posted by: dalyplanet
--

Please tell us, oh sage, what is the cure you so clearly see? Or, were you referring to someone else?

Posted by: jonroesler | February 25, 2011 3:15 PM | Report abuse

~~~Wow. Just... wow.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 25, 2011 3:02 PM~~~

I haven't suggested or read anything stating what you just stated. You are insinuating ideas that are purely hypothetical.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 3:13 PM | Report abuse

So... The great social safety net LBJ tried to fashion in order to prove to the rest of the world that the American system works better than communism should be DE-funded because it isn't doing a good job, and DE-funding what little safety net we have will somehow BETTER serve our people?

Kinda like spending less on schools will make the schools better; spending less on public works will make public works better; spending less on pretty much anything the government does will make pretty much everything the government does work better?!? Huh?

Or, it will work worse, in which case the response will be, "See? That program doesn't work even as well as it did before, so it should be killed entirely."

Except in the case of military (oops, I should have used the politically correct term "defense") spening, in which case more is better, and the more pork content the better.

Wow. Just... wow.

Posted by: jonroesler | February 25, 2011 3:02 PM | Report abuse

I don't trust him...he likes to make fun of people who think like me : )

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 2:55 PM | Report abuse

~~Go read Krugman over at the NYT today--a nice analysis of free-market ideological fanaticism at work in Wisconsin, and how it worked out in Iraq, 2003

Posted by: e30m42 | February 25, 2011 1:18 PM


You mean pro union Mr. Liberal, no bias intended, himself?...yeah, read it and have seen him plenty on Sunday morn...what is your point?

Posted by: bertzel

------------------------

I read it too.

Baghdad 2003 and Madison. Just alike. Got it. Governor Walker = Paul Bremer. GOP sneaking through legislation that will anoint Governor Walker as Viceroy. Got that too.

Another Nobel Prize winning effort from America's most trusted columnist.

Krugman is corrupt. He would fit right in with the Burmese government.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 2:49 PM | Report abuse

~~~You're arguing with someone who is missing some of his '0's and '1's dude.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 1:03 PM~~~

As I tell my young child...I am not a dude. So do not address me as such. Thank you.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 2:46 PM | Report abuse

~~Go read Krugman over at the NYT today--a nice analysis of free-market ideological fanaticism at work in Wisconsin, and how it worked out in Iraq, 2003

Posted by: e30m42 | February 25, 2011 1:18 PM


You mean pro union Mr. Liberal, no bias intended, himself?...yeah, read it and have seen him plenty on Sunday morn...what is your point?

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 2:42 PM | Report abuse

JohninMpls

Nice stats and Mpls and St Paul are nice but have you been hanging at Chicago and Franklin or the near north side or ridden the elevator at Skyline Towers in St Paul or visited the apartment complex at York and Minnehaha where most all children have no father in the house and 90% unemployment is normal. The way we help people today creates pockets of poverty and despair. It seems to me you are unaware of any problems in Minneapolis so the Great Society policies of the last 50 years have been effective in achieving as Toles puts it, having the undeserving ~~~ well, just go off somewhere where we won't see.~~~

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 2:12 PM | Report abuse


The caricature of the Libyan crazy kind of reminds me of the KOCH Brothers and Governor Walker. Zealots obsessed with power, control, over the poor and weak.

Posted by: travelinman4

----------------------

Only a weak-minded dimwit Liberal full of malcontent would make such a comparison.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 1:51 PM | Report abuse

The caricature of the Libyan crazy kind of reminds me of the KOCH Brothers and Governor Walker. Zealots obsessed with power, control, over the poor and weak.

Posted by: travelinman4 | February 25, 2011 1:45 PM | Report abuse

The caricature of the Libyan crazy kind of reminds me of the KOCH Brothers and Governor Walker. Zealots obsessed with power, control, over the poor and weak.

Posted by: travelinman4 | February 25, 2011 1:44 PM | Report abuse

~~Poetic wishnevsky but the net is made out of servers and switches and data pipelines. Wreck a few key nodes and the people will be without the net.planet~~~

Only pointing out the tech side of the coin there bert And I am not sure the net is required for the collective consciousness but the net may facilitate awareness of it.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 1:43 PM | Report abuse

The caricature of the Libyan crazy kind of reminds me of the KOCH Brothers and Governor Walker. Zealots obsessed with power, control, over the poor and weak.

Posted by: travelinman4 | February 25, 2011 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Huh? The unemployment rate in Minneapolis is 6.5%. That's lower that the Minnesota state average of 7% and the national average of 9.4%.

There were 1,302 fewer unemployed Minneapolitans in December 2010 than there were in November 2010. The December numbers represent a 12,087 drop from December 2009.

It's so bad here, Men's Journal ranked MPLS as one of the best places to live in the US in 2010. The Daily Beast listed MPLS as the fourth-smartest city in the US in 2009. The city ranked eighth in Outside magazine's list of the top 100 cities in the US. Forbes ranked MPLS as the safest city in the US in 2009.

I could go on. Happiest place for families. One of the best cities to earn a living. One of America's most wired cities. One of the best cities for working mothers. One of the most livable cities in the world. One of the top cities to have a baby. One of the best cities to grow old.

And the Twins ain't half bad, either.

-----

dalyplanet wrote, "As to the success of the great society experiment take a trip to Detroit or St Louis New Orleans DC Chicago or Minneapolis and a dozen other cities and tell me that the welfare state is working."

Posted by: JohninMpls | February 25, 2011 1:25 PM | Report abuse

Go read Krugman over at the NYT today--a nice analysis of free-market ideological fanaticism at work in Wisconsin, and how it worked out in Iraq, 2003

Posted by: e30m42 | February 25, 2011 1:18 PM | Report abuse

~~Poetic wishnevsky but the net is made out of servers and switches and data pipelines. Wreck a few key nodes and the people will be without the net.planet~~~

Small mindedness when only the science part of the equation is put forward there daly...the net would not exist if not for humans and if not for humans use of the net it would be of no use...

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Recently heard a radio interview with Naomi Oreskes re her new book "Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming." She found a pattern: Seitz and Singer, the highly respected scientists who first "doubted" the evidence for a link from cigarettes to cancer were also among the first to "doubt" acid rain, the ozone hole, and global warming. Both were physicists who worked in defense during and after WW2, Manhatten Project and satellites, both supported Viet Nam war, both fervent anti-communists, both feared state regulation of any kind.

Facilitators include: George C. Marshal Institute, tobacco, oil and coal industries. Of 56 environmentally skeptical books published in the 1990s, 96% had links to right-wing organizations.

Oreskes' findings are not entirely new, but are finally well documented in one book.

Present-day skeptics, present company included, have often seemed to me to take their ideology from Ayn Rand: fear of reds under the beds must persist. Her atheism aside, that fear seems to be the link to our religious fundamentalists...as they say, politics makes for strange bedfellows--I recall from my days reading anti-evolution tracts how Duane Gish would hector on about how belief in evolution would lead to unwed pregnancy, drug abuse, and...communism!

Posted by: e30m42 | February 25, 2011 1:04 PM | Report abuse

ranger- your exaggeration is well noted :)
at least there is some truth to what you post.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 1:03 PM | Report abuse

You Stay focused Dave!

Posted by: bertzel

----------------------

You're arguing with someone who is missing some of his '0's and '1's dude.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 1:03 PM | Report abuse

@ dave,
Unions feed off the problem dave therefore add to the problem. Unions are no longer useful in this day and age.
Posted by Bertzel

My Retort...
Unions are a big part of the problem. They no longer represent the workers. They have their own agenda. They are the reason that the working people are no longer able to support their life style, their government or the supply side of economics.dave~~~

~~~My Comment...
Unions are not the problem. The problem is unemployment, under employment and poverty wages. dave~~~~


~~~My reply...
What conflicting statements?
The Unions are not the problem; the unions, government and the corporations are the cause of the problem which is poverty, under employment and unemployment. dave~~~~

You Stay focused Dave!

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 12:59 PM | Report abuse

That is the bottom line; not keeping the greedy rich with their insatiable appetite for money and power, happy.
We are all the demand side of economics and need sufficient funds to survive.
Money is what fuels the world; not just oil.
Dave the Social Systems Specialist

posted by Ockamsrazor

----------------------

Again, no mention of the greed of the leadership of the public unions, especially the Teachers Unions.

It's all about the wealthy, standing around, counting their gold whilst the poor working man asks for 'more' gruel.

Dickens knew how to write (and had a reason to write about the plight of the poor).

You 'don't' on both counts.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 12:52 PM | Report abuse

~~~(ask the most anti-science person you know which antibiotic they will give their kid: the 1950 version or the modern one to combat the evolved bacteria), SageThrasher~~~

The most anti-science person I know of would refuse any and all medical help and rely on 'faith healing'. Happened in my little area of the world...In this instance a young child died. She was denied treatment for diabetes and was instead given prayer....

Tell me SageThrasher, Do you believe in the big bang theory? If so, what do you believe caused it? Just curious because I have yet to get a response from anyone I pose that question to.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 12:51 PM | Report abuse

~~ (ask the most anti-science person you know which antibiotic they will give their kid: the 1950 version or the modern one to combat the evolved bacteria),sagethrasher~~

The most anti-science person I know of would refuse treatment of any kind and rely on 'faith healing'...happened not too long ago in my corner of the world...only a child ended up dead because treatment for diabetes was not given.
Tell me SageThrasher...do you believe in the big bang theory? If so...what do you suppose caused it? I have yet to get a response from anyone I pose that question to.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 12:41 PM | Report abuse


~~~My Comment...
Unions are not the problem. The problem is unemployment, under employment and poverty wages. dave~~~~
Conflicting statements there dave...
this blog is so full of them!
Posted by: bertzel

My reply...
What conflicting statements?
The Unions are not the problem; the unions, government and the corporations are the cause of the problem which is poverty, under employment and unemployment.

Stay focused Bertzel! (:-)>

The unions and the government need to protect the workers from greedy corporations and prevent inequitable wages, under employment and job loses.
The Corporations need to pay employees the cost of living at a minimum. The government needs to take up the slack with government jobs when the economy adjusts.
Wasting manpower and resources is counter productive and causes social entropy.
The Nation needs a viable economy and efficient social systems to maintain quality life experiences for its people.
That is the bottom line; not keeping the greedy rich with their insatiable appetite for money and power, happy.
We are all the demand side of economics and need sufficient funds to survive.
Money is what fuels the world; not just oil.
Dave the Social Systems Specialist




Posted by: OckamsRazor | February 25, 2011 12:40 PM | Report abuse

It is truly ironic that those with the ability to see clearly beyond the Al Gore vision of catastrophic climate change and the carbon credit exchange and carbon offset plan for the cure are the ones accused of wearing the 16th century 'thinking hat'.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 12:14 PM | Report abuse

Maybe but not critical of the the mhoust post. mhoust has an excellent post but forgot this important key skeptics position. The IPCC and various governments plans to reduce CO2 are so inadequate as to be meaningless or useless. If the danger is so grave why are the solutions so timorous.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 11:44 AM | Report abuse

The coexisting conceits that evolution isn't real, that man's actions cannot have any lasting effect on the life of the planet, and the belief that visible wealth is the outward expression of virtue or divine favor are all part and parcel of America's unwavering Calvinist outlook. If you view religious debates from the secular point of view that they are like debates between children arguing over who has the toughest invisible friend, then religious arguments seem incomprehensible and self-contradictory. But if you put on your 16th-century "thinking" hat, suddenly all the talk about scientific conspiracies, crusades as the answer to jihads, and the eternal unwavering bounty of nature there for man to use without care all makes perfect sense. God will save us from ourselves, don't you know; lakes of cleansing fire and all that. The thing is though, very few REALLY believe in this backwardness (ask the most anti-science person you know which antibiotic they will give their kid: the 1950 version or the modern one to combat the evolved bacteria), but self-doubts about the relevance of faith just makes its adherents insistent on stepping off of higher and higher leaps. Sadly, they want us all to jump with them.

Posted by: SageThrasher | February 25, 2011 11:41 AM | Report abuse

~~~poetic but...
nice post but...Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 11:23 AM ~~~

my, my planet aren't we quite the little critic today LOL!!

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 11:31 AM | Report abuse

Poetic wishnevsky but the net is made out of servers and switches and data pipelines. Wreck a few key nodes and the people will be without the net.


Nice post mhoust but you left out one other key skeptics position. The IPCC and various governments plans to reduce CO2 are so inadequate as to be meaningless or useless. If the danger is so grave why are the solutions so timorous.


Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 11:23 AM | Report abuse

~~~But the real scary part is that the internet is not made of computers. It is made out of people. So what happens when the entire planet is effectively one consciousness? I don't know. I'm merely human.
Stay tuned in and find out. It not only will happen, it has already happened, and we have to evolve into the new state of consciousness.
Don't believe in evolution? Too bad. It believes in you.
Posted by: wishnevsky | February 25, 2011 10:31 AM~~~

Interesting post wishnevsky. Only one question. Do you actually mean one consciousness or would you be referring to one force?
And if so what makes you believe that one "consciousness" or 'force' has not existed since the 'beginning'?

I really don't expect a response...just thought I'd throw that out there.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Total US Defense spending is over One Trillion a year isn't it?

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 10:35 AM | Report abuse

"The only argument that needs to be made is the Democrats have 23 US Senate seats to defend in 2012 and the Republicans only 10."

It was roughly the inverse last year & look what happened. But go ahead 'n count them chickens before the eggs even been laid.

Posted by: bsimon1 | February 25, 2011 10:33 AM | Report abuse

I'll agree with you on the subject of evolution. Anyone who doesn't accept the theory of evolution as being a fact has a fundamental bias against logical reasoning; as well as being totally ignorant of modern farming, medicine, geology, and archeology.

Climate is the sum total of meteorological elements in a given region over a long period of time. We measure those individual elements and collect those measurements to be able to state that the climate of that region is such and such now, and may have been so on and so forth a long time ago, and may become something different in the future.

I don't know of any AGW skeptics that won't admit that the climate is changing in many areas in the short term. And that many AGW proponents will admit that there are some places that appear to be getting colder.

The point is, most of the skeptics aren't challenging the fact that greenhouse gases can cause temperature increases so much as they are challenging the consistency and validity of measuring methodology for temperature and gas content, and the validity of the adjustment assumptions applied to that data. The easiest way to silence those objections would be to post a total database of the exact measurements for each location and time, along with how those measurements were obtained, how measuring methodology changed from time to time at those sites, and how and what the adjustment criteria applied to those sites was arrived at.

I mean, come on. If we can post several world-wide accessible databases for the human genome, we ought to be able to do the same for weather data. Most people have plenty of home computers and can crunch the data for themselves. Let them confirm the truth or falsity of global warming, and whether we have any significant impact on causing or alleviating it.

Posted by: mhoust | February 25, 2011 10:32 AM | Report abuse

Evolution didn't stop with Adam and Eve, to mix metaphors wickedly. Evolution is a process that applies to any sufficiently complex system, i.e. life form. Things grow to cope with their environment, the environment changes, perhaps due to the success of the thing growing, the the growing thing has to change to meet the new environment, rinse and repeat. Yes?

One of those complex systems is intelligence. Brains evolve by assuming more data, learning how to comprehend that data, then grabbing more data. Books, language, writing, songs, clay tablets, microfilm. Computers were a big step, with the potential of being able to hold more knowledge, process data faster than any human brain. Right? Simple stuff.

But it gets faster and faster. In a few years, hard drives have gone from megabytes to terabytes. Gigabytes were supplanted in a few years. It is all inter human communication; But now, instead of a few dozen people in a church gossiping about that hussy down the block, you have three billion people linking themselves with cell phones and computers at the speed of light. A flash mob can put tens of thousands of like-minded people in one place at one time, all with the same goal.

The actual goal is more or less irrelevant. It helps if it has some connection to reality, a real grievance, a real enemy, a real desperate situation, but that is not completely necessary.

The best example is the wiki-revolutions sweeping the Arab nations. Two repressive regimes are gone, one of the worse is tottering, and others have had to make serious concessions. The fate of the individual regime seems to depend entirely on the intelligence and flexibility of the rulers. Any regime in the world can expect a flash mob at any time, anytime enough people decide conditions have become insupportable, and organize via smart phones.

What can the regimes do? They can't ban cell phones, they will destroy their own economies. If they try repression, they just force the mobs into more violent reaction. Even shutting off the internet has proven worthless.

But the real scary part is that the internet is not made of computers. It is made out of people. So what happens when the entire planet is effectively one consciousness? I don't know. I'm merely human.

Stay tuned in and find out. It not only will happen, it has already happened, and we have to evolve into the new state of consciousness.

Don't believe in evolution? Too bad. It believes in you.

Posted by: wishnevsky | February 25, 2011 10:31 AM | Report abuse

The federally budgeted (see below) military expenditure of the United States Department of Defense for fiscal year 2010, including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, is[9]:

Components Funding Change, 2009 to 2010
Operations and maintenance $283.3 billion +4.2%
Military Personnel $154.2 billion +5.0%
Procurement $140.1 billion −1.8%
Research, Development, Testing & Evaluation $79.1 billion +1.3%
Military Construction $23.9 billion +19.0%
Family Housing $3.1 billion −20.2%
Total Spending $685.1 billion +3.0%
Think that does indeed add to the problem.
Course I just googled those numbers off of wikipedia this time....thought I'd join the rest of you in that area of 'knowledge' for a change. :)

I also would have to add that, a loss of jobs also has a great impact.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 10:27 AM | Report abuse

"where the creation story deviates from science, I believe the science"

So they got the big bang right, which is quite a feat when you're doing your calculations on clay tablets.

Posted by: bsimon1 | February 25, 2011 10:26 AM | Report abuse

Some idiot commented that we haven't had any more World Wars. Isn't the war on Terrorism a world war. Just because the US is the one country doing the fighting and losing lives, its still a world war.

Posted by: jjbaill

--------------------

This administration no longer uses 'GWOT' as a term so try and keep up rock-head.

What we're doing in to combat terrorism on a world-wide scale is vital - I don't question that ever. However, WWI, and WWII are in a class by themselves. We lost 58K soldiers in Vietnam. The world lost a million lives in the Battle of Verdun; and the Battle of Stalingrad. The US lost 19,500 men in the Battle of the Bulge alone - more if you try and calculate in the 'missing.'

We haven't had any wars like that since WWII. So quit picking nits when you don't have a clue.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 10:21 AM | Report abuse

SteveSchofield

Very nice summation of the situation.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 25, 2011 10:16 AM | Report abuse

In the interests of offending everyone:

1) Natural selection is bunk. It is not a plausible mechanism to account for the critters of the world. See Jerry Fodor's book "What Darwin Got Wrong". It's a non-religious critique of the doctrine of natural selection. The logic of natural selection does not hold water.

2) Conservatives love welfare and government meddling in markets. Just try to kill federal subsidy monies going to agribusiness, timber, cotton, sugar, oil, or any other corporate welfare recipient, and you'll see how much conservatives love welfare for the rich.

Posted by: HumanistPatriot | February 25, 2011 10:13 AM | Report abuse

~~"Rant"?
No.
Clarity, wisdom, and wit.
Posted by: GeneTouchet | February 25, 2011 9:50 AM~~~

Clarity, wisdom? In this case,no.
Wit? perhaps.

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 10:11 AM | Report abuse

~~~(I personally believe God created the world ...but where the creation story deviates from science, I believe the science.)
Posted by: jrlindle | February 25, 201110:02 AM~~~

Hmmm. define God and how you think he/she/it created the world.
Was it just the world or everything that exists?

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Some idiot commented that we haven't had any more World Wars. Isn't the war on Terrorism a world war. Just because the US is the one country doing the fighting and losing lives, its still a world war.

Posted by: jjbaill | February 25, 2011 10:03 AM | Report abuse

Very mature, only ad hominem attacks with no real basis in facts (or reality). How about an alternate scenario: Many persons like myself (an independent btw) have recently become aware of the corrupt, sweetheart deals that public employees and politicians have devised along with the corruption of big business and banks and are -- in the words of Howard Beale -- mad as hell and not going to take it anymore. Rather than ignorant caricatures, most people who are upset simply desire grown-up fiscal responsibility from our government instead of graft and disingenuous bargaining with upper-middle class public employees that parasitically feed off of the labor of the middle-class workers. We just want a little common sense. We need to reform big business and big labor (public unions) who have flourished while the average taxpayer foots the bill. If your only response is bile, then you really have nothing to offer for the future -- "there's something happening and you don't know what it is, do you Mr. Jones"

Posted by: SteveSchofield | February 25, 2011 10:02 AM | Report abuse

I think it's awesome that the same people who use the Bible to refute evolution also decry the obtuseness of the Roman Inquisition for failing to recognize the scientific evidence of helicentrism. Perhaps there is an overlay with people still holding geocentric beliefs.

(I personally believe God created the world ...but where the creation story deviates from science, I believe the science.)

Posted by: jrlindle | February 25, 2011 10:02 AM | Report abuse

It's impossible to debate these people on issues--I've tried since before the 2010 election. They dismiss anything they do not currently believe, they do not compromise, they do not recognize sound information and data when they see it.

Posted by: ptgrunner

--------------------

You don't try to debate. You're a thin-skinned coward who never accepts defeat on any debate issue despite the fact you are beaten like a scrambled egg by everyone here. You have no academic skill whatsoever and you debate like a 6-year old. You wish away problems in the US by engaging in endless hateful banter against the Tea Party, the GOP, and the Conservatives.

You don't know how to think, much less think critically. I value the thoughts of an Iowa hog-farmer more than anything you post.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 9:52 AM | Report abuse

"Rant"?
No.
Clarity, wisdom, and wit.

Posted by: GeneTouchet | February 25, 2011 9:50 AM | Report abuse

Come on. There are THREE important aspects to the problem. You left out the elephant in the room, our enormous military, big as those combined in the rest of the world.

Posted by: ErrolHess

-------------------

Actually, this isn't a problem. You would know the depth of the problem if you were handed a rifle and told to serve with Pershing or Patton since world history wasn't taught to you during your repeat engagements in the 7th grade.

Complain all you want but with the US as the perennial big-kid on the block, we haven't had any World Wars of late, if you have noticed.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 9:41 AM | Report abuse

More swill.

Character assassination to those the do not think the way you do. Typical; as in read not further,author cannot make a case on merit.

Posted by: bill1946 | February 25, 2011 9:30 AM | Report abuse

No, Mr. Toles, we just don't want 'you' in politics. Religion is easier to deal with - your just a Limousine Liberal declaring you're just one of the mates.

Don't think so -

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 9:27 AM | Report abuse

@gilbertbp | February 24, 2011 2:30 PM and dalyplanet

You guys don't get it...do you? That money is not available to YOU. Never will be. It's for the already wealthy. You can kill unions in WI and everywhere else. The fictional money that you think you will get will never go to you. And while you don't realize it, this is all about killing unions, and you will no benefit at all from it.

You probably saw all the graphic information showing the flow of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy. Many people dismissed that data since Mother Jones compiled it. But those graphs are from many studies done by researchers. At least gilbertbp had the sense to change his argument from wealth transfer to taxes.

Posted by: ptgrunner

=------------------------

Oooooooooo - 'studies done by researchers'. All hail 'researchers! None of those researchers that contribute to Mother Jones has any bias, right ptgrunner?

'Simpleton' is too high on the Darwinian measuring stick for you.

Posted by: pararanger22 | February 25, 2011 9:24 AM | Report abuse

And you're just noticing this now?

Posted by: clw743 | February 25, 2011 8:59 AM | Report abuse

~~~I think I'm seeing a large overlap between people who don't accept evolution, people who don't accept climate science and also the supposedly deficit-obsessed Tea Party. Correct me if I am wrong here.
Toles~~~~

You are wrong here.
There, I corrected you.
Would enjoy to argue (debate) with you as well but it is impossible to argue (debate) with a written word. So you are safe : )

Posted by: bertzel | February 25, 2011 8:51 AM | Report abuse

Come on. There are THREE important aspects to the problem. You left out the elephant in the room, our enormous military, big as those combined in the rest of the world.

Posted by: ErrolHess | February 25, 2011 8:28 AM | Report abuse

The only argument that needs to be made is the Democrats have 23 US Senate seats to defend in 2012 and the Republicans only 10.

Posted by: jornolibist | February 25, 2011 6:34 AM | Report abuse

You're right, Tom. “Evolution is a Science.” Just look at Gaddafi!

Posted by: quiensabe | February 25, 2011 4:10 AM | Report abuse

You've got it right, Tom. Social Darwinism is the true religion of the reactionary right in America. That Jesus stuff is all window dressing. It's strictly for the rubes, not the tax code.
Posted by: EthelredtheUnready

My Comment...
Personally, I think we have an identity crises going on.
Due to bi-polar dysfunction; people are no longer able to arrive at rational conclusions. Their double minded condition prevents the left brain from agreeing with the right brain and there is no consensus of objectivity.
This condition causes a disconnect with reality that undermines any attempt to solve problems.
The government is also bi-polar and unable to function as it should.
If we want to survive our fractured faculties, we will need to find the source of our confusion and reinvent ourselves as well as our social systems.
The Chaos is deafening.
Dave

Posted by: OchamsRazor | February 25, 2011 3:24 AM | Report abuse

~~~~~Obama and the Democrats in Congress accomplished more good than the previous administration did in 8 years~~~~~

Only time will tell. That thing we had in Iraq may have a little to do with the revolution in another nearby part of the world right now. Depending on the outcome Bush may end up the being the smartest President we ever had. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it. Of course it may take a while to shake out. And you would NEVER admit to it.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 24, 2011 9:45 PM | Report abuse

Pdog

Where did you get those rose colored glasses. There will be no compromise on this matter. The union will lose. Their deal is too sweet. The Bush Obama years are coming to a close. It is all about sustainability. Walker is the start of the revolution.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 24, 2011 9:31 PM | Report abuse

Tom, You are not imagining things. The people who don't accept evolution or climate change are pretty much Tea Party people. And they don't accept--or at least do see a problem with--the massive transfer to wealth to the already wealthy that Mother Jones exposed. Not only do "They Walk Alike, They Talk Alike, Sometimes They Even Think Alike", they are the same people. They don't believe in science and they possess "a certain underdeveloped aptitude in processing data" as you put it. I'd put it far more severely. They are confidently ignorant, ignorant and proud of it, have no critical thinking skills, and can barely function in today's changing world. And they are--to a large extent--holding this country back. In just two years, Obama and the Democrats in Congress accomplished more good than the previous administration did in 8 years. Not as much as accomplished as most of us hoped for, but a good start. And now, with Republicans in control of the house, not only are some of the recent accomplishments in danger, but I don't see that any social or economic progress can be made for at least two years. it gets worse. It's impossible to debate these people on issues--I've tried since before the 2010 election. They dismiss anything they do not currently believe, they do not compromise, they do not recognize sound information and data when they see it.

Posted by: ptgrunner | February 24, 2011 9:21 PM | Report abuse

Science Tim, haven't you heard? Ever since Bush, stupid is the new smart!

Tom, excellent rant today, and excellent Walker toon. Living in WI, it's been interesting to watch the overreach and the quick public backlash to it. My prediction on what's going to happen; some Republican state senators will be "assigned" to not go along with Walker's proposal. They will be the sacrificial lambs so Walker can save face and say that he didn't cave into the evil unions.

But this will not stop his downfall. Once his budget comes out next week, and people realize that, through his announced cuts, there will be tens of thousands of layoffs of government workers, he will quickly be cast into the one-term role, if he doesn't get recalled. That huge spike in unemployment, combined with the decreased take home pay of those public workers that still have their jobs, will lead to more unemployment in the private sector as well. It could get very bad here before it gets better. But I'm hoping the overreach does what it did in 2006 and 2008, bringing some more progressive candidates to the forefront.

Keep up the good work!

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | February 24, 2011 9:18 PM | Report abuse

ScienceTim

Just ask Michelle if we here in the US are collectively getting obese was my statement. Who has said she is fat? I have not mentioned her before. Is she you sister or something you seem a bit defensive. You foaming at the mouth attack dog libs like yourself have a tendency to spout vitriol and name call but forget to read carefully or actually debate.

As to the success of the great society experiment take a trip to Detroit or St Louis New Orleans DC Chicago or Minneapolis and a dozen other cities and tell me that the welfare state is working. And you won't have any idea looking in the suburbs. The system, when seen up close is demeaning, but you would not know there would you ScienceTim because you only know about it from a drive by viewing. Your ignorance is on display when you assume to know me. And it is clear you are clueless as to the Great Society's dark failings.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 24, 2011 9:05 PM | Report abuse

What is the yellow chicken?


and then in the cartoon with Qadudaffy, chest deep in freedom holding his umbrella, the new mascot of the Democrat Party runs by....buk buk....buk-bukbuk-buk ........... a yellow chicken.

Posted by: billybeer6 | February 24, 2011 8:37 PM | Report abuse

dalyplanet, you and the other talking-points-idiots need to drop this whole stupid meme of "Michelle Obama is fat" that you have been pushing at every possible opportunity lately. Usually, you just make bold claims about things that might actually take an effort to learn about, like climate change, or the history of social programs in the U.S., or the actual reasons why the Great Society programs were enacted (hint: things were not all hunky-dory beforehand; there was an actual problem that needed resolution, and this is the solution that legislators arrived upon). You could, perhaps, be forgiven for your ignorance of these subjects on the grounds that you may be busy (though not too busy to spout nonsense), or maybe you just aren't bright enough to handle the research. However, any person with at least one functioning eyeball can rather quickly find a photograph of Michelle Obama and verify that not only is she not fat, she is seriously buff.

I hope I haven't been too harsh with you. You seem to be sincerely dedicated to the proposition that there is a virtue in saying ignorant, which is when a person crosses the line from merely ignorant to actually stupid. That seems to be where you are. Perhaps I am being unfair and you really are blind. In which case: sorry to be so mean to you, but perhaps you could locate someone who CAN see and get them to describe a photo of her for you. It seems like a better idea than perennially spouting an absolute and obvious falsehood.

Posted by: ScienceTim | February 24, 2011 8:29 PM | Report abuse

Please no offense : oc1dean no intent to wisecrack your situation. Just this whole Toles rant post stinks today. Back in the day before the Great Society liberal experiment when people went to church and believed in God (now they worship 'science') people took care of each other. There were fraternal organizations and mercy hospitals and a much closer connection with those in need. Now it is Governments job and the reality is government really insulates problems and hides them away by sending money along and create some program. There is a disconnect from reality because we have abdicated our responsibility and expect government bureaucracy to do it better than communities. Look at the mess it has gotten us into. Conservatives do not want to abandon the less fortunate, they just think that government has not done a great job over the last half a century. The gap between the haves and have not's has grown not diminished. It is not about taxes and money but how you treat and empower people.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 24, 2011 7:53 PM | Report abuse

Yep, back in the good old days the 'undeserving' starved or froze now they get fat and have heart attacks or strokes. Just ask Michelle.

Posted by: dalyplanet | February 24, 2011 7:13 PM | Report abuse

Yo Tom,

Your rant missed the War Department,(now called the Defense Department). The vast majority of our deficit is due to wars that were not in the best interests of America and the interest on the debt for that war spending. Look it up.

Posted by: EarlyBird1 | February 24, 2011 6:53 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: oc1dean | February 24, 2011 5:32 PM

"I'm a stroke survivor and since I no longer qualify to be perfect I should just remove myself from the surplus population. Isn't that what Republican health care is about? If you are not able to stay healthy then just die."

Close, but no cigar. You missed the Republican message by a W. The Republican health care message is, "If you are not able to stay wealthy, then just die". You are most welcomed.

Posted by: bushidollar | February 24, 2011 6:06 PM | Report abuse

I'm a stroke survivor and since I no longer qualify to be perfect I should just remove myself from the surplus population. Isn't that what Republican health care is about? If you are not able to stay healthy then just die.

Posted by: oc1dean | February 24, 2011 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Medicare, tax hikes, and of course one other thing- that ultimate Sacred Cow- Defense/Homeland Security. We spend close to a trillion a year on that. It is comforting to know that as we go broke we at least are outspending the entire rest of the world on our Military, and by gosh no underwear bomber granny is going to go un groped!

Posted by: Chickenofthesea | February 24, 2011 4:45 PM | Report abuse

You've got it right, Tom. Social Darwinism is the true religion of the reactionary right in America. That Jesus stuff is all window dressing. It's strictly for the rubes, not the tax code.

Posted by: EthelredtheUnready | February 24, 2011 3:25 PM | Report abuse

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