Gilbert, Antawn out

The Wizards will play without Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison tonight against Lithuanian team Zalgiris Kaunas. Antawn, who turned an ankle at Chicago the other night, practiced yesterday and was on the court going through a pretty intense workout before tonight's game so he's fine.

Gilbert played at Chicago but didn't practice yesterday and will miss his second preseason game (he did not play at Philly last Sunday because of a sore toe). Remember, before the preseason started, Gilbert said he would probably play in every other game. Antonio Daniels will get the start at guard with DeShawn Stevenson, Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood and Darius Songaila.

The cool thing about tonight is the atmosphere. There are at least several hundred Lithuanians in here getting ready to watch ZK, a traditional power in the Lithuanian pro league. When I walked past a couple of the bars that surround the arena two hours ago, folks wearing ZK's green and white were pounding beers, chanting songs and getting hyped up. The team is finishing a three-city tour that has included loses at Golden State and Toronto. The Raptors won 105-99 but needed several free throws down the stretch to put ZK away.

"They'll be out of beer by halftime," said Songaila, a native Lithuanian who helped the Wiz stat and tv crews nail down pronunciations of his countrymen before the game.

By the way, the word is that ZK's most NBA-ready prospect may be point guard Mantas Kinietis, who recently turned 21 years old and doesn't even start for ZK. He may be a draft pick next June so I'm looking forward to watching him play.

By Ivan Carter |  October 19, 2007; 6:35 PM ET
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sounds like a good time.

So jumping on some of the other comments on the last couple of blogs, the NBA over/under wins in a season are up. . .

drumroll. . . .

Wizards - 40 flat

Other points of interest:

Highest are Mavs (56/) and Suns and Spurs at 56.

Boston is 48/

Cavs 48

Lowest is Minn at 20. No other team less than 30.

Will be back with thoughts once I have digested.

cj

Posted by: charles jones | October 19, 2007 7:44 PM

ill refrain from saying first tho it is tempting.

btw - wiz started at 39 last year and ended up before season started 41/

Posted by: charles jones | October 19, 2007 7:52 PM

Some sloppy play, but the younger players look fairly good tonight.

Blatche will definitely get major minutes when this season.

Posted by: Tim | October 19, 2007 9:11 PM

Blatche had another monster game. But I wish Buchkantz and Chenier weren't comparing him to Magic Johnson and Kevin Garnett. We need him to be humble and under the radar. And he'll never be as good as those guys.

Posted by: Smith | October 19, 2007 9:31 PM

Oh my......

Did anyone see AB play tonight? AB didn't start, played only 20 minutes, and ended up with 18 pts, 7 boards, and 4 assists.

Did anyone see those Magic/CWebb type passing instincts, especially the behind the head pass? Did anyone see AB kick start those two fast breaks?

So where are those punks, farts, and statisticians who tried to shoot me down when I said AB had great instincts? AB pretty much dominated this game when he was on the court, skying above everyone.

This boy needs to start. He's too good to come off the bench.

Gilby? He'd rather practice against teammates than play against real competition. That's fine, but he'd better hit the court on all cylinders when the season starts. Nobody wants to hear about rust because he didn't get much PT during the preseason where he chose to sit out.

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 19, 2007 9:36 PM

Haywood went 5/5 from the line. Amazing. Hopefully he can keep it up.

If he can be a 70% free throw shooter, his overall effectiveness should improve drastically.

I guess Hopla was a good hire.

Posted by: Ty | October 19, 2007 9:37 PM


AB was fantastic tonight. He's getting automatic with that 15 footer, and that follow-up slam was awesome. But what I really love is the way he can see over the defense and hit the open man underneath with a perfect pass. When you have him and Pecherov in there at the same time, they're a really potent combo.

Posted by: John Brisker | October 19, 2007 10:53 PM

Blatche is looking more confident, more aggressive, and more in command of his game everytime he plays. I gotta agree with DCMan and say he may well be starting material right now.

The problem, though, is that right now we need him to play center, and if you start him at center you're draining away a lot of firepower from the 2nd unit. I think ideally you would start Blatche at the 4 and bring AJ off the bench, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see happening next year after we lock AJ back up for another 2 or 3-year deal and after we do something more at the 5. But as long as AB is needed at the 5 I don't think you can start him. If you did you'd have all the offense in AD and Darius, with the Mason, Haywood and rookies.

As for the 9th man I think it has to be DMac for his defensive intensity and rebounding. PEch is intriguing but it's spot minutes for him unless another big gets injured.

Posted by: Prazak | October 19, 2007 11:02 PM

Kobe for Gil, Brendan and McGuire, and that Griz pick ;>. Yes, a real Wiz pick would be needed. Stevenson would be a better fit for LAL, but can't be traded until mid-season - same as Derek Fisher, which could make sense.

Not gonna happen, but AD, KB, CB, AJ and AB/DS would be something. Down to only 1 truly weak defender. Increased toughness of this line-up may make saving DS for the bench better, but also could be wise to save AB's energy for the bench... Certainly would be a thin team - perhaps worse bench than last year (yikes!): new 2nd 5 would be Fisher, NYoung, Blatche/DS, Pech and Mason/MHall. Certainly would want to keep Massenburg to have a little bulk deep on the bench...

Posted by: BACO | October 19, 2007 11:02 PM

That trade is so not going to happen. I hope it's fun for you all to fantasize, though.

Posted by: Prazak | October 19, 2007 11:06 PM

I think LA would trade Kobe to Les BouleS for Gilby, Nick Young, AB, and next year's #1 pick.

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 19, 2007 11:54 PM

Lets hope to god it doesn't happen. Who wants Kobe in dc? I'd rather have Gilbert, he's much more entertaining.

Posted by: amalg | October 19, 2007 11:56 PM

I would hope none of those deals mentioned above get done. As for Blatche, I like what I am hearing. Hopefully Jordan will use Blatche to save Jamison so he has something left for late in the year and esp. in the second game of back-to-backs.

Posted by: George Templeton | October 19, 2007 11:58 PM

Blatche looked great, but you can forget any notion of him starting, let alone starting at C. The only way Eddie even considers it is if the team gets off to a very rough start and he thinks he needs to shake things up. But if keeps playing this well when the games actually mean something, then bringing him off the bench is just what the Wiz need.

The last few years the Wiz have had one of the least productive benches in the NBA. They were anemic on every level. The starting 5, overall, has been pretty solid, and there's no reason to assume they won't continue to be. There's absolutely no reason to rush Blatche, who's still getting his feet wet into the NBA, into some kind of premature "savior" role. Let him come off the bench and build his confidence against second stringers. Because it won't be so easy to replicate what he's doing now against NBA caliber starters when the games actually mean something.

The Wiz have taken a "Bring him along slowly" approach with Blatche that seems to be paying off. No need to punch it into overdrive now. Just let things continue to come to him at his pace.

Posted by: kalorama | October 20, 2007 12:08 AM

Smith,Ab will never be as good as Kg?AB is 21 would still be in college and yes he has potential to be as good as KG.Every bucket he got was from hustle tonight.No plays were ran through him.In time he could be that good.With just a little bit of work in the post witch he is doing.But of course everyone seems to be negitive about anyone on our team.The whole Ab statement is a ridiculous statement, the ability is there!Maybe not Magic but Kg for sure.
PS.A bunch of you write nick Young is a bust, just keep saying that.Read the stats.He is slowly coming into his own,Once again give him time.Speaking for Nick bite me!And once agian Kobe would not help us that much.Will you all just f***ing get over it,He is not that much of and upgrade over Gil.For christs sake you guys want to give up half the team for him ,get a life! The jabroni a couple of posts up actually wants to give up Mcguire and Haywood in the deal HELL NO!!!!!! No way I give up Haywood(no matter how much he sucks)and Mcguire in that deal or a pick weather we ever get it or not.What the hell is wrog with people on here.Did we not learn from the MJ experiment.Lets snap into reality and realize we have a good team.If we stay healthy we are as good as any team in the east.Lets stop trying to win for one season any lets try to win for years to come!!!!!!

Posted by: The truth | October 20, 2007 12:17 AM

Taylor looked really bad... everytime he touched the ball something bad happened. I would really be surprised if he makes the team.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2007 12:28 AM

I just have to laugh, are there really some folks on this forum that actually really hate the Wizards and would like the team to get worse by trading away four players? And all for one petulant, spoiled brat who berates his teammates and remains aloof the rest of the time.

Posted by: rgz | October 20, 2007 1:13 AM

I think the Wizards will beat 40 wins this season. I kind of think 43 is the low end of their potential win total.

Posted by: George Templeton | October 20, 2007 1:24 AM

"If the west coast was so alluring for Gil, he would have chosen the Clippers instead of the wiz the last go round. He came here for the money. We could offer 1/2 mil more than the clippers could ... plain and simple. When he opts out at the end of the year, no one can offer the money that the wiz can offer. He wants the money. Its how they view respect in the NBA."

Someone wrote this in the last post and it made me remember a video biography on Gil. It was on NBA TV last year and Gil was talking about how he came to Washington. Supposedly he didn't choose the Wiz over the Clips because of the 1/2 mil more. He essentially narrowed it down to the Clips and the Wiz and his deciding factor...and this is straight from the horse's mouth...was a coin flip. Heads was Washington, tails was L.A. Thankfully it was heads.

We all know how wacky Gil is so I'll assume his story to be true.

Posted by: David | October 20, 2007 2:27 AM

Weren't u the moron who said to trade AB last year for the Boston kids? Esp. after he schooled KG last spring. Dumb@ss backtrackho.

Posted by: I HATE DC Man88 | October 20, 2007 2:43 AM

To David: first of all, you got the details to the story wrong. He flipped a coin ten times and it landed more often for L.A., so he went to D.C. to go against the grain. And secondly, Gil has admitted that the story was something he made up to make his signing with the Wiz more interesting.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2007 3:21 AM

Yeah, gil kinda backed away from that... I think someone was giving him a bunch of questions about why Washington so he pulled that out to give them something to write.

Posted by: greg | October 20, 2007 3:58 AM

Yes, the "coin flip" story is a myth. As for the game: Blatche was sensational. Not just what he did, but his decision-making was quite good. That's what he's needed to learn, and is learning.

Caron was great; played with passion and intensity. All over the court, both on offense and defense. He was everywhere.

Pech is what George Costanza would call a "chucker." He shoots and shoots. Also showed some skills.

McGuire is an amazing shot-blocker. Fantastic instincts. He must be in the rotation.

Brendan was, again solid. Nick Young is getting more comfortable. He has a really nice hesitation dribble move. He does too much spinning, though. He'll pay for that move at this level. Good potential, however.

Taylor's a dog. So is Mass. Can't see either of them making the team.

Posted by: Keithinator | October 20, 2007 7:57 AM

By the way DC Man, we don't forget how you went on a weeks long tirade last season about how Blatche was a complete bust, and the Wiz should just get rid of him. So spare us your, "I told you Blatche was good" comments.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2007 8:06 AM

If it is only a 9 man rotation, the 9th has to be RM. Otherwise, where does you outside shot come from off the bench? Not AD, or AB or Song. Perhaps by midway through the year, Pech replaces AD in the rotation too.

What is up with Song, btw? He has looked horrible in the games I have seen...maybe he is tired already.

Posted by: oddjob | October 20, 2007 8:49 AM

"By the way DC Man, we don't forget how you went on a weeks long tirade last season about how Blatche was a complete bust, and the Wiz should just get rid of him. So spare us your, "I told you Blatche was good" comments.

Posted by: | October 20, 2007 08:06 AM "

Really? Prove it. Otherwise, you're just pulling it out of your dad's @ss.

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 20, 2007 9:30 AM

I feel weak in the knees...Brendan Haywood is playing with passion and dropping free throws, Caron Butler has improved handle and can play some 2, Blatche was replaced with cyborg Blatch programmed to win, DMac has the instincts to be a great player, Nick Young is a born scorer, Songalia is healthy...

My stress is with our starting guards. Gilbert obvisously has some physical concerns if he is sitting out, he is not fully recovered. Frankly, I would rather Gilbert take a month off now at the beginning of the season and rehab a bit more if it will increase his comfort and confidence. Gil's been pretty animated about opting out, hope it does not come back to bite him if he is not ready to push hard when the season starts.

I really enjoyed Stevenson's contribution last year and felt very comfortable coming back with continutiy. However, he and Gil have both been ice cold throughout the pre-season games. I am now waxing poetic about Navarro lost. I am a serious basketball fan but lacked the knowledge and exposure to have known that he would make such a smooth transition to the NBA. I do believe however that EG is way too smart and informed to have not have known he was going to be effective. It now looks like we could have used Navarro's 3 point shooting.

As a whole, still pretty excited. It's going to be an entertaining season.

Posted by: Dr. Strangelove | October 20, 2007 10:23 AM

Liked your bit about Navarro in today's story, Ivan. I've been following his progress, as well, and I see he's lighting it up. I thought he would. I also thought the Wizards probably should've kept him and shown DeShawn the door if DeShawn wasn't willing to be paid what he's worth instead of what he THINKS he's worth. EG is known for the one-sided trades, but this Navarro deal will most likely be one-sided in the wrong direction this time.

Posted by: Colin | October 20, 2007 11:14 AM

more truth, Navarro has been lighting it up!!! But he also has been getting lit up,he can't guard a dead animal.Keeping him would've hurt us on D.We don't need anymore scorers which is why we kept DS.Atleast he can play a little D. although, lately mr 50 looks like mr 25

Posted by: the truth | October 20, 2007 11:29 AM

Still, for the offensive firepower that Navarro possesses, it would've been nice if EG could've gotten more than a conditional draft pick. I think that's my main problem with the deal. But, no one was offering, so I guess he took what he could.

Posted by: Colin | October 20, 2007 12:08 PM

"Really? Prove it. Otherwise, you're just pulling it out of your dad's @ss."

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 20, 2007 09:30 AM

Is that the "real" DC Man88? or an imposter
trying to make DC Man88 look like a complete idiot and liar?

Cuz the real Dc Man88 must know that all the blogs are available to everyone to look at..even back to last year!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2007 12:30 PM

Blatche is a near-future all-star. Locking him up for five years at a bargain price was the best GM decision the Wiz made this summer - even better than drafting D-Mac. His length and D reminds me of Big John Salley, but he also has impeccable timing, soft, sure hands, shooting touch, speed, dribbling skills, the attitude to intimidate and never back down but the Zen to always play in control, he sees the whole court, anticipates where the offensive player will be and where he needs to go - at what speed, and with how much stealth - to get the rebound/block/steal. Having him and Big Buddha - Butler - playing at the same time gives us two cerebral, hi-IQ, multi-dimensional team-oriented weapons. A big question with those two and Jamison in the rotation is whether Gilbert can give up some of his shots, take on less, and commit to more passing & team-oriented ball this season.

If Blatche devotes more time to the weightroom, I think he could be an Amare Stoudemire-caliber weapon - less bang, more nuanced skills. I wouldn't trade him straight up for a nearly 30-year-old Kobe and his team-destroying whining & ego. Young, by the way, will be a great bench scorer by the end of the season, just you wait.........

Posted by: Roundtree | October 20, 2007 12:30 PM

Collin,I also would've liked for us to get more.Hopfully Memphis does good this year and we get the pick.If not, hopefully we can package it in hopes of landing a pick to get Roy Hibbert in the draft.You never know what might happen.

Posted by: the truth | October 20, 2007 1:06 PM

That was an entertaining game. I particularly enjoyed watching the 4 young guys getting 20+ minutes each.

Ivan, I'm sure your right concerning EJ playing 8 most of the time, and maybe 9.
But when Gil comes out, we don't want AD and DS on the floor together. AD is better with Mason and, hopefully, with Young as the season progresses. Check out the 5-man stats on 82games.com. Said another way, we need a sharp-shooter next to AD when Gil is out.

Posted by: Izman | October 20, 2007 3:38 PM

Truth, that's true. I guess we should all be Memphis fans this year, too. I lived there for two years, so I have no problem rooting for them.

Posted by: Colin | October 20, 2007 3:50 PM

Remeber last year isn't this year. EJ will have a lot better bench than last year. He also has more flexibility in the different lineups he can have on the floor for different situations.

It will be interesting to see what EJ's coaching style will be this season. I don't think he will need to play the big three 40+ minutes per game this year.

Posted by: Tim | October 20, 2007 4:05 PM

Yes, the young guys looked good last night. Blatche was everywhere. I also enjoyed watching, McGuire & Young. Caron was really hyped. All the new players look like they will do well in the near future, some a little sooner, but i see them all doing well.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2007 5:13 PM

"Liked your bit about Navarro in today's story, Ivan. I've been following his progress, as well, and I see he's lighting it up. I thought he would. I also thought the Wizards probably should've kept him and shown DeShawn the door if DeShawn wasn't willing to be paid what he's worth instead of what he THINKS he's worth. EG is known for the one-sided trades, but this Navarro deal will most likely be one-sided in the wrong direction this time.

Posted by: Colin | October 20, 2007 11:14 AM "

What has DS done so far this preseason?

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 20, 2007 7:41 PM

"Is that the "real" DC Man88? or an imposter
trying to make DC Man88 look like a complete idiot and liar?

Cuz the real Dc Man88 must know that all the blogs are available to everyone to look at..even back to last year!

Posted by: | October 20, 2007 12:30 PM "


Oh my gosh, I didn't know that!!!! Duh.....

Therefore, you have no excuse not to go spend some time and look back and find something to back up your accusations. You bring it up, so go prove your words. Happy hunting!

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 20, 2007 7:43 PM

Ask yourselves, when Les BouleS play Boston this season, who do you want guarding KG? AJ or AB at the 4? Answer: AB must start!

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 20, 2007 7:47 PM

Jamison can match points with KG, Blatche can't. So if Blatche is going to spend all of his time guarding KG and still lose the production battle, why would you start him over a guy who can still get up 20 points against good defense.

Posted by: JE | October 20, 2007 7:56 PM

A lot of us have speculated on a starting lineup that included AB at the 4 and had AJ coming off the bench. However, I don't see EJ doing this at least in the beginning of the season.

AB played pretty well in a game last year against KG as I recall. I would like to see him against some other players as well, like Chris Bosh who usually kills the Wizards.

Posted by: Tim | October 20, 2007 8:40 PM

Lineups are all situational. AB most likely won't take over Jamison's starting spot...but again, when a KG or Bosh starts killing us, Eddie can always sub Blatche in.

It's that simple.

Posted by: David | October 20, 2007 11:24 PM

Oh yea, I apologize about the coin flip story and getting my facts mixed up.

Posted by: David | October 20, 2007 11:25 PM

One of the biggest reasons for putting AJ on the 2nd team is veteran experience. Both he and DSong can provide that along with AD to which will help DMac, Nick, and Opech.

Without AB in the starting lineup, there is no consistent scoring threat in the paint. The biggest question will be how AB will gel with Gilby, and to AB's credit, he's able to remain active even if he's not the focus on offense, whether it's getting a board/block and starting the break, or making that step to make defenses react and then dishing to the open man.

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 20, 2007 11:45 PM

I just read the article on DMAC. It says that DMAC was played football at the high school level and was a quarterback.

VCU FANS, He reminds me of JPR(Jesse Pelle-Rosa).

DMAC blocks shots, rebounds, passes, He is going to be great in the princeton offense. You can see why EG drafted him. He is the type of player who promotes Team chemistry and both ends of the floor. His passing ability influences others to play with in the offensive scheme(like Darius Songalia). His defense intensity and effort will inspire others to play defense(similar to Ben Wallace with the pistons).

He should be in the starting line-up. His sheer presence on the floor could turn this team into a champion. He is a leader period.

Posted by: flinstone | October 21, 2007 12:13 AM

Blatche may be a bigger post threat but why would you trade 10 post points for 20 or 25 all around points just to be able to say you have a post threat? Anyone willing to start Blatche over Jamison at this point is still seriously jumping the gun.

Posted by: JE | October 21, 2007 12:39 AM

DCB1tch88 is the biggest poser around. We won't do your dog work & look @ the archive. Every1 here knows u r a leftwing waffler.

I still remember how u wanted AB traded for all those Boston bunnies even after he lit up KG. The only thing we need to pull is our collective plungers out of your momma's @rse.

Posted by: DCfaggle88 lies | October 21, 2007 12:56 AM

Agree with comments that Navarro has trouble guarding warm bodies. Also agree that considering how much Memphis wanted the man, we might have driven a harder bargain. So all we can do now is hope that the Grizz have a surprisingly good year... which could possibly happen given the high rate of superstar attrition in the West.

I do like this Wiz team, assuming Gilbert is not blowing smoke up our collective derrieres, this may be the best group of players 1-10 we have had since the late 70s.

Posted by: khrabb | October 21, 2007 4:42 AM

Glibert's big toe...must be pretty bad to miss two exibition games and 3 practices. Sounds like the knee is not where they hoped it would be by now. Did he have another MRI done on it this week?

Posted by: oddjob | October 21, 2007 9:22 AM

As I mentioned, I don't think EJ will start AB anytime soon.

However, the thinking is that if he did, AJ could still get most of his points, but it would just be coming off the bench. And the Wiz would have a better defender against first string PF's, some of whom cause us a lot of problems.

Posted by: Tim | October 21, 2007 9:35 AM

"DCB1tch88 is the biggest poser around. We won't do your dog work & look @ the archive. Every1 here knows u r a leftwing waffler.

I still remember how u wanted AB traded for all those Boston bunnies even after he lit up KG. The only thing we need to pull is our collective plungers out of your momma's @rse.

Posted by: DCfaggle88 lies | October 21, 2007 12:56 AM "

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

You are dumber than a bag of rocks. If you accuse me of making a statement in the past about trading AB, that's your job to prove your accusation by finding direct quotes, not me.

Otherwise, your accusation is worthless, like a doctor administering an STD test for your mom after she worked 25 years as a wh#re.

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 21, 2007 9:38 AM

After reading Ivan's article today about DMac, what is the real deal? When DMac was drafted, he was listed at 6-8. Now, both Ivan and Bucky have been quoted as saying he's 6-9. On TV, he looks about 4 inches shorter than AB, who's 6-11. DMac is probably about 6-6.

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 21, 2007 9:40 AM

Nick Young is 6'7" with shoes on.

AB is 7 feet with shoes on.

D-Mac is at least 6'8" 3/4s without shoes on, check the pre-draft measurments if you want too.

Posted by: Jumpy | October 21, 2007 9:47 AM

"BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

"You are dumber than a bag of rocks. If you accuse me of making a statement in the past about trading AB, that's your job to prove your accusation by finding direct quotes, not me.

"Otherwise, your accusation is worthless, like a doctor administering an STD test for your mom after she worked 25 years as a wh#re.

"Posted by: DC Man88 | October 21, 2007 09:38 AM "

That is not a posting by a sane man.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 21, 2007 10:26 AM

Not a posting by a man at all.... just a misguided youngster, playing with his thing... (keyboard).

Posted by: Anonymous | October 21, 2007 12:28 PM

Shouldn't WashPost censor some of the vulgar posts on here? It's very childish trading slurs back and forth and calling out someone's mom as w wh*re.

And that doesnt mean just DCMan, some of the people calling him out have been just as rude as he is.

Lets calm it down

Posted by: David | October 21, 2007 12:54 PM

"Not a posting by a man at all.... just a misguided youngster, playing with his thing... (keyboard).

Posted by: | October 21, 2007 12:28 PM "

Either way, obviously worthy of your attention....

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 21, 2007 4:15 PM

Worty? The garbage I take out every night gets my attention. Doesn't make it worthy. People taking offense to some of the garbage you write doesn't make that worthy either.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 21, 2007 6:48 PM

Keep responding to my comments. I'm glad I got your attention.

I agree about your statement about whether something is worthy. Just because johns pay your mom x dollars for that 5 minutes, doesn't mean she's worth any more than the used rubber afterwards.

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 21, 2007 7:25 PM

I ain't a momma's pimp like u idiot.
Is that the same rubbers u recycled from the trash ala the get rid of AB tirade?

Posted by: DC Gutless88 is a douche | October 21, 2007 11:34 PM

The good thing about your momma is that she doesn't require rubbers. She sees no point in them, which was how you were conceived. You're her ticket to all the gubberment cheese she can eat.

Posted by: DC Man88 | October 21, 2007 11:54 PM

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