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Big Hill to Climb

The Wizards were off yesterday but will be back on the court for practice today. Check back later for an update. In the meantime, put some thought into the playoff picture. Yes, it's still crazy early in the season to seriously think about seeding but when you look at the Wiz and their 2-12 record it's worthy of consideration.
Right now, The Wiz are dead last but only five games out of eighth. To finish at .500 they would need to go 39-29 from this point on.

Which team do you like to eventually wind up with that final seed and, where do you see the Wizards going?

By Ivan Carter  |  December 1, 2008; 11:31 AM ET
 
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Comments

It's hard to believe that Jersey will sustain their success all season. I think NY and Miami will sneak into the playoffs, but watch out for Philly.

The Wiz? Lottery-bound. I think the best we'll do is 4th... in the Southeast. The team is just not that good, and Butler and/or Jamison haven't even been hurt yet (you KNOW that's coming).

I don't know why the words "Wizards" and "Playoffs" keep appearing on this blog...

Posted by: sargeantmofo | December 1, 2008 11:54 AM | Report abuse

The team doesn't necessarily need to be a .500 team to make the playoffs, the Hawks made it last year at 36-46, granted, that was last year.

With Arenas coming back in January (snicker, snicker), the team may have a chance making the playoffs as a sub-.500 team, but I'm not holding my breath...

Posted by: -CN- | December 1, 2008 12:00 PM | Report abuse

The Wiz are going nowhere this season and adding Gilbert back in the mix is not going to change a thing. There are too many other things not right with this team that once person (Gilbert) can fix. As I said before, the rest of our division got better in the offseason through trades etc and the Wiz stayed pat. Now, we just have to paly with the hand we have been dealt. I agree with the other poster in that, with the number of intense minutes being logged by Caron and Jamsion, it is only a matter of time before one of them is hurt. It is a woeful situation, it truly is. I love my Wiz to death and am hoping I am wrong, but, this team as presently contructed are just not very good. Period. And they are quite painful to watch. I say keep Caron and Antawn and blow this team to smithereens and start over. Somebody talk me down because maybe I am missing something.

Posted by: ivyleague | December 1, 2008 12:08 PM | Report abuse

In the meantime, put some thought into the playoff picture?

Mr. Carter are you on drugs or drinking the kool aid that this organization is passing out to the fans. It must be laced with something since people are still going to the games to watch this team shoot wild shots, play no defense, never pass the ball or play physical.

The players on this team will be home counting their money watching the players in the league who have a real desire to win on TV. The sad part is AJ and Gil will never change their selfish style of basketball where the only thing that matters to them are their stats. If they were winners they would take the time to learn how to play the game the right way.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 1, 2008 12:30 PM | Report abuse

A playoff spot will be tough for the Wiz because the season's barely started and they've already dug a huge hole. Unlike last year, making it in with a sub-.500 record is going to be tough because a number of the Eastern teams improved themselves over the summer. A number of teams that missed the playoffs last season (NY, Miami, Chicago) may be in the hunt for spots this season, creating a much more crowded field.

Even if the Wiz do turn things around, they're going to need to go on a big winning streak at some point in order to make up the lost ground, and that's a tough order for a team that doesn't play defense.

"I say keep Caron and Antawn and blow this team to smithereens and start over. Somebody talk me down because maybe I am missing something."

Problem with that strategy, ivyleague, is that it's locking the barn door after the horse has already escaped. If they were going to blow it up and start over, the time to do that was over the summer, when they could have (potentially) leveraged Jamison and Arenas' contract situations into some usable assets. That ship has sailed, and aside from Caron, there's nothing else on this roster that will fetch anything of significant value in trade.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 12:34 PM | Report abuse

Problem with that strategy, ivyleague, is that it's locking the barn door after the horse has already escaped. If they were going to blow it up and start over, the time to do that was over the summer, when they could have (potentially) leveraged Jamison and Arenas' contract situations into some usable assets. That ship has sailed, and aside from Caron, there's nothing else on this roster that will fetch anything of significant value in trade.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 12:34 PM

unless we go over the rotfl salary cap like every other half decent team in this league

Posted by: prescrunk | December 1, 2008 12:44 PM | Report abuse

"unless we go over the rotfl salary cap like every other half decent team in this league"

And, for the millionth time, the Wizards are already way over the salary cap (by about $10 mill).

Now, if you're talking about the luxury tax threshold (seriously people, learn the difference; it's not that hard) ... of the 16 teams currently in the top 8 among the two conferences, 7 of them are below the luxury tax threshold.

It's not about how much money you spend, it's about how you spend the money.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Why would you go over the salary cap to improve a team that's 2-11? Especially when fans keep turning up to see them play? It doesn't make a lot of sense, business-wise. I can't help but think the only thing they can do at this point is blow it up and start over.

I do think the team will improve considerably when Gilbert comes back. This team is making us all miserable because they can't play defense, but that's nothing new. Even with our shortcomings, we're still in a lot of these games. What we need is someone to execute down the stretch (and by execute, I don't mean kill DSS, but there are times when...). Gilbert will give us that. We're never going to stop anyone with the personnel we have, but at least Gilbert gives us the option to outscore people at crunch time.

Even if we do get hot and go on a run, we'll be completely out of gas come playoff time. And seeing as how this team doesn't have the effort or guts to win in the playoffs to begin with, I'm not enthusiastic.

But I do hope that Antawn continues to put up stellar numbers. I go to bed every night praying that someone will decide he's the veteran they need to make a title run (Lakers? Spurs?), and we can finally be rid of him. Nice guy, but not a good fit for this team.

Posted by: bryc3 | December 1, 2008 1:00 PM | Report abuse

And even if they were willing to go over the luxury tax, they only have the MLE to spend and there's no FA out there who (A) is worth it and (B) would make a difference.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 1:01 PM | Report abuse

"But I do hope that Antawn continues to put up stellar numbers. I go to bed every night praying that someone will decide he's the veteran they need to make a title run (Lakers? Spurs?), and we can finally be rid of him."

You might want to think about becoming an atheist, because that's not gonna happen.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Jamieson is not a problem, he is a classy solid and consistent performer.
Also please stop bashing GA until you see if he can perform anywhere near his previous levels.
Where are you going to pick up a perenial and perpetual all star performer?
Also GA has a charisma that this team totally lacks without him. They are dull and boring without GA.
There is hope, however.
With the influx of youngins like Mcghee, and NY and with the hoped for assension of Blatche, together with AJ and CB, all is not lost.
Also the replacement of EJ was and is a blessing. He added nothing to the formula. His game adjustments and substitutions were abhorrent. His personnel problems were a major distraction.
He was stubborn and consistently out coached. He was clueless. Watch Georgetown to see how the Princeton is supposed to work. And don't tell me GU is more talented than Wiz.
12/1/2008 1:06:47 PM

Posted by: maxman2162 | December 1, 2008 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Ernie kissed the playoffs goodbye when he canned Eddie. EJ would have righted the ship as soon as AD returned to form. Time for a new GM.

Posted by: SteveC28 | December 1, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse

"Ernie kissed the playoffs goodbye when he canned Eddie. EJ would have righted the ship as soon as AD returned to form. Time for a new GM.

Posted by: SteveC28 | December 1, 2008 1:24 PM "

Yeah, right the ship in time for a 4th consecutive season of one and done.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | December 1, 2008 1:28 PM | Report abuse

kalo_rama

…of the 16 teams currently in the top 8 among the two conferences, 7 of them are below the luxury tax threshold.

How about mentioning that the teams that have a realistic chance of winning the championship like Cleveland 90.5 million, Portland 81.5 million, Boston 80 million, LA 79 million, Houston 77 million, Phoenix 74 million are all over the luxury tax threshold.

I agree with your statement that “It's not about how much money you spend, it's about how you spend the money.”
The problem with the Wizards is they spent 25 million of the cap space on two players that play out of position. Jamison is too soft to play power forward and too slow to play small forward. Gilbert Arenas when healthy is a 6’3” shooting guard that plays point guard? He has no clue on how to play the point guard position and also plays no defense. In college you can get away with that but in the NBA it does not work.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 1, 2008 2:06 PM | Report abuse

Hey there KALORAMA!! I thought I'd check in and see how Eddie is doing. Send him my best, and keep us updated on how he's hanging in there.

With your vast knowledge of the salary cap and luxury tax threshold, I sure do wish you were our GM. I'm sure you would have done a much better job than Ernie. I'm sure your first move would be to sign Eddie to a 25 year deal. With you and Eddie leadig us, there is no telling where the Wiz could go.

Posted by: cj658 | December 1, 2008 2:10 PM | Report abuse

Half the problem with the D is Jamison. He can't guard a dead horse. in man, when the ball goes opposite he cheats all the way to the strong side. 2 passes and he's caught, cause one he is out of position and two he follows the ball back insted of sprinting to his man, and three he turns his back to his man which allows his man to set up better for a three. If Jamison would just go one foot in the lane and stay lined up to the ball so he can always see his man and the ball we might not give up so many threes(our whole team does this just Jamison gets caught the most). For all the good he does on the offensive end he does bad at the other end. Don't get me wrong he is a great guy I just don't think we can win without a solid post presence on both ends and Jamison isn't a 4. he is just to nice(not mean enough) to play down there.

Posted by: wizravterp | December 1, 2008 2:14 PM | Report abuse

Oh and Kal, my good friend Kal, is this really what you think about teams willing to trade for a vet like AJ, and I quote:

"You might want to think about becoming an atheist, because that's not gonna happen."

My, my, my, another example of your ignorance and lack of general basketball knowledge. I can think of 5-10 teams off the top of my head who would kill to have AJ for the stretch run this year. You know, teams that want/need to win NOW. Hmm, like those loveable Cavs. Mr. Ferry knows he has to win a championship NOW, or LBJ is off to NYC. The only way to keep him around is to win it all NOW. He would kill for a guy like AJ for the playoff run, and it is really not to far fetched.

Come on Kal, keep an open mind. But I forgot, you do know everything. I'm sure Eddie is proud.

Posted by: cj658 | December 1, 2008 2:19 PM | Report abuse

"How about mentioning that the teams that have a realistic chance of winning the championship like Cleveland 90.5 million, Portland 81.5 million, Boston 80 million, LA 79 million, Houston 77 million, Phoenix 74 million are all over the luxury tax threshold."

I didn't mention it because I don't think most of those teams have a realistic chance of winning. The only teams in that group that do (in my opinion) are Cleveland, Boston, and L.A.

Portland is years away (if they get there at all), Houston is a dark horse at best, and Phoenix has no shot.

But if you want to talk about stuff I didn't mention ... how about the fact that the Spurs and the Pistons have both won titles in recent years without exceeding the tax?

Spending more money than anyone else doesn't guarantee success. Ask Dan Snyder.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 2:20 PM | Report abuse

But if you want to talk about stuff I didn't mention ... how about the fact that the Spurs and the Pistons have both won titles in recent years without exceeding the tax?

Spending more money than anyone else doesn't guarantee success. Ask Dan Snyder.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 2:20 PM

OWNED faggit

Posted by: prescrunk | December 1, 2008 2:41 PM | Report abuse

PRESCRUNK: Getting a little angry huh?? LOL, man callin someone a faggit on a blog, hahaha! What a loser!!! Must got pretty strong feelings for Kalorama, huh?

Posted by: cj658 | December 1, 2008 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Now, if you're talking about the luxury tax threshold (seriously people, learn the difference; it's not that hard) ... of the 16 teams currently in the top 8 among the two conferences, 7 of them are below the luxury tax threshold.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 12:57 PM

@ Kalorama,
I was talking about this: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/trademachine
Choose Les Boules from the drop-down menu. "Cap Room" = $-963,207.
If you look at the Knicks, they have $-39,046,228, while the Thunder have $1,140,656 of cap room.

Please explain.

Posted by: prescrunk | December 1, 2008 2:50 PM | Report abuse

"I didn't mention it because I don't think most of those teams have a realistic chance of winning. The only teams in that group that do (in my opinion) are Cleveland, Boston, and L.A." - KALORAMA

Well Kal, funny thing is Clev, Bos, & LA are HALF the teams he mentioned. How does that translate into "most" of those teams??? Man you're not as bright as you would for us to think.

Now I'm sure I'm going to get cussed out by PRESCRUNK for arguing with KALORAMA, this is all so hilarious!!!

Posted by: cj658 | December 1, 2008 2:51 PM | Report abuse

kalo_rama

The only teams in that group that do have a chance on winning a championship(in your opinion) are Cleveland, Boston, and L.A.

Cleveland 90.5 million, Boston 80 million and LA 79 million are all over the luxury tax threshold and the Pistons were when they won. The Spurs know how to draft and build through the draft while adding key free agents like Roger Mason. Which means the Wizards would have to exceed the luxury tax threshold to win since they do not know how to draft players. They traded Devin Harris for AJ?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 1, 2008 2:51 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: prescrunk | December 1, 2008 2:59 PM | Report abuse

The Pistons were not over the luxury tax when they won the title in 2004. Hell, they're only over it now by about $600,000, and their payroll has ballooned over the last 4 years, with pricey extensions handed out to Rasheed, Rip, Prince, McDyess, and Chauncey (the last two's salary having since been converted into AI's $20 mill/deal).

"Which means the Wizards would have to exceed the luxury tax threshold to win since they do not know how to draft players. "

That statement has absolutely no basis in fact or even provable logic.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 3:03 PM | Report abuse

NOTE TO MAXMAN2162: More bashing of EJ, sad truly sad if you had any basketball knowledge you didn't display any in your recent post EJ has led the Wiz to four straight playoff appearances,had them winning as recently as a year ago even though they were outmanned(no Gilbert) and had opened the season losing their fist five games,they then won six in a row to right the ship.This season they got no help from their clueless GM(no offseason help;trades,free agency) and lost their best bench player(Mason) when the "GM" wasn't smart enough to manage the salary cap while overpaying for AJ and GA,so tell me how is this EJ's fault? and just so you know EJ was never outcoached,he has never had the talent other teams have and please don't compare G'town to the NBA Princeton offense be dammed JT3 was outcoached in NCAA's against a Davidson team that was truly outmanned with the exception of one player(Stephon Curry) and the Hoya's had a double diget lead in the second half.EJ started the season with the wizards starting center injured and Gilbert injured again and as i stated before no help from the GM lets see what Etap does with this team until Brendan and Gil come back probably more yelling at rookies, yeah that'll work.

Posted by: dargregmag | December 1, 2008 3:09 PM | Report abuse

"I was talking about this: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/trademachine
Choose Les Boules from the drop-down menu. "Cap Room" = $-963,207.
If you look at the Knicks, they have $-39,046,228, while the Thunder have $1,140,656 of cap room.

Please explain."

It's pretty self explanatory. According to their numbers, the Thunder are $1,140,656 under the cap and the Knicks are 39,046,228 over it.

But I think their numbers are wrong because, according to their calculations, the Wizards payroll of $69.6 mill puts them $963,207 over the cap, which would put the cap at about $68.7 mill.

But according to NBA.com (a more reliable source, one would think) the 2008-09 cap is at $58.7 (http://www.nba.com/news/salarycapset_080709.html). (Also, since the luxury tax cap is at $71 mill, historically (and logically) there has to be more than $3 mill difference between the two.)

Either way, though, the Wiz are over the salary cap.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 3:20 PM | Report abuse

Either way, though, the Wiz are over the salary cap.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 3:20 PM


what happens when a team exceeds the salary cap? the luxury tax cap?

Posted by: prescrunk | December 1, 2008 3:26 PM | Report abuse

"Cleveland 90.5 million, Boston 80 million and LA 79 million are all over the luxury tax threshold

So are Milwaukee (7-12) and New York (8-8), neither of whom will be winning a title any time soon.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 3:28 PM | Report abuse

The trade machine is off by $10M on calculating the Wiz cap totals.

Guys this is just a forum, state your opinion. You can be sure your idea will be attacked and debunked, but never take it personally. And try not to attack persons instead of ideas.

Oh and you don't and can't win every argument even if you're right. Just ask your wife.

Here's my contribution for the day.

Ernie: pushes telephone quick dial, gets John Paxson.

Hey John, how can I get Larry from you?

John: eyes roll upward

What have you got that I want Ernie?

Ernie:
Well I'll give you Etan, Oleksiy and DeShawn.

John:
No Thanks, how about Caron Butler and Andray Blatche?

Ernie:
No can do John.

John:
Well then, no deal. Thanks bye.

Posted by: rickgonz | December 1, 2008 3:31 PM | Report abuse

And then Ernie keeps trying every team president on his fast dial.

No one bites.

Posted by: rickgonz | December 1, 2008 3:33 PM | Report abuse

Ernie:
Well I'll give you Etan, Oleksiy and DeShawn.


Posted by: rickgonz | December 1, 2008 3:31 PM

EG better not trade Deshawn. that wud be one of the worst mistakes.

Posted by: prescrunk | December 1, 2008 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: prescrunk | December 1, 2008 3:43 PM | Report abuse

"what happens when a team exceeds the salary cap? the luxury tax cap? "

The salary cap? Nothing, really. Which is why (A) the majority of the teams in any given year are over the cap and (B) the luxury tax was created.

If a team's payroll exceeds the luxury tax, then for every dollar over the tax threshold they are, they have to pay the league a matching dollar-for-dollar total (thus the "tax" part).

So if a team signs a player whose salary puts them $3 mill over the tax, they'd actually end up paying $6 mill (in plus-tax dollars) for that player: $3 mill in salary and $3 mill in tax.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Well said, Kalorama. Man, pretty smart.

Posted by: cj658 | December 1, 2008 3:53 PM | Report abuse

prescrunk

kalo_rama did not give you all of the facts.

The money that teams spend over the luxury tax threshold goes into an escrow account and some or all of the escrow money may be reserved for "league purposes." This is likely to be a small percentage of the total escrow amount, but there is no cap on the amount that is used for league purposes -- the league could, at their discretion, use all of it. For example, in 2006-07 the league used about $20.7 million of the escrow money for revenue assistance.

More importantly; Any remaining escrow money that is distributed to teams must go to all teams in equal shares. Which puts more money into the old man's pocket.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 1, 2008 4:41 PM | Report abuse

kalo_rama

You mention "The only teams in that group that do (in my opinion) are Cleveland, Boston, and L.A." and how about the fact that the Spurs and the Pistons have both won titles in recent years without exceeding the tax?
The Pistons did it with 3 former Wizard players; Ben Wallace, Richard Hamilton and Rasheed Wallace and the Spurs did it through the draft.

I said "Which means the Wizards would have to exceed the luxury tax threshold to win since they do not know how to draft players." and I should have added make good trades.

Your comment; That statement has absolutely no basis in fact or even provable logic.

What logic that you do not understand the game of basketball?


Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 1, 2008 4:53 PM | Report abuse

I didn't mention it because it's not especially relevant to his question. And your interpretation of how the tax works is a bit skewed. To wit:

"More importantly; Any remaining escrow money that is distributed to teams must go to all teams in equal shares. Which puts more money into the old man's pocket."

You're now arguing at cross purposes to yourself.

On the one hand you excoriate Pollin for being cheap for not going over the tax, but here you turn around and imply that paying money into the tax actually benefits him financially. Which is, at best, speculative, because there's no guarantee that any of that money will ever be "distributed" among the other teams. And even if it is, what they get back could well be quite a bit less than they paid in.

In almost every realistic, likely scenario, teams that pay money into the luxury tax will not see most (if not any) of it again.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 4:58 PM | Report abuse

"What logic that you do not understand the game of basketball?"

That sentence makes no grammatical sense, therefore I cannot respond to it.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 4:59 PM | Report abuse

We haven't shown any signs we can regularly win games so the squad has virtually no chance, even with 68 games remaining. The old 99.9% michael jordan rule applies.

Posted by: bford1kb | December 1, 2008 5:10 PM | Report abuse

kalo_rama

Why don’t you do a little research on the luxury tax before you try to explain it to someone. Check out the following web site,

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9903EFD7113DF935A35750C0A9639C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

I know that is a lot to ask so just read the following two paragraphs,

Three teams, the Mavericks (Mark Cuban), the Knicks (Cablevision) and the Trail Blazers (Paul Allen), redistributed $180 million to the rest of the league in 2002-3 and 2003-4 and had combined losses of about $200 million. In the two seasons before the luxury tax, these teams nearly broke even.

On the other hand, 13 teams -- Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Denver, Golden State, Houston, the Los Angeles Clippers, New Orleans, Orlando, San Antonio, Seattle, Utah and Washington -- received much of the redistribution (about $227 million) and increased profits to nearly $600 million from about $200 million. Staying under the luxury-tax threshold has become more profitable than winning.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 1, 2008 6:50 PM | Report abuse

Reading those two paragraphs was pretty easy for me, but it must have been too much for you, since, if you had read them, you'd see that they supported my point, not yours.

To wit:

"...Which is, at best, speculative, because there's no guarantee that any of that money will ever be "distributed" among the other teams. And even if it is, what they get back could well be quite a bit less than they paid in.

In almost every realistic, likely scenario, teams that pay money into the luxury tax will not see most (if not any) of it again."

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 4:58 PM

If you had actually made the taxing intellectual journey to the end of the second paragraph perhaps you would understand that the whole point of the article was to point out that the teams that paid the most in luxury tax dollars (Knicks, Mavs, and Blazers) lost $200 million dollars. The 13 teams that made money off the tax (Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Denver, Golden State, Houston, the Los Angeles Clippers, New Orleans, Orlando, San Antonio, Seattle, Utah and Washington) were teams that stayed below the tax threshold.

Which, again, was the exact point of my previous post.


Posted by: kalo_rama | December 1, 2008 7:33 PM | Report abuse

So, you agree with Abe that staying under the luxury-tax threshold and being profitable is more important then winning?

You said the only teams that have a chance to win a championship are Cleveland, L.A. and Boston, and they are all over the luxury-tax threshold.

Who are you his accountant?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 1, 2008 8:01 PM | Report abuse

I normally agree with most of what bulletsfan78 says but I disagree with him on one point and he's not alone in his thinking.
Gilber Arenas is NOT a traditional pg...that's clear. He's a scoring guard that plays the point.
Ppl talk about him, though, as if he never passes and he's a ballhog. There's no way teammates get career years in scoring if he's not sharing. In his last 2 semi-complete years (not including last year of course) he averaged 6.1 and 6.0 assists per game while scoring 29 and 28.

To put it in perspective, last year these guards averaged 6.0 assists per game or less..

Tony Parker
Kurt Hinrich
Brandon Roy
Rajon Rondo
...and the list goes on.

Chauncey Billups (who a lot of ppl hold up as one of the standards and the consummate pg) averaged only 6.8.

Last stats for the day...

Let's look at Steve Nash's 2 MVP seasons (2004-2005 and 2005-2006) and compare them to Gil those same years.
I'm using 82 games as a resource and looking at the pg position PER for those years.

In 04-05, the Phoenix pg's had a 19.5 PER and it was +4.7 better than their opponents.

In 04-05, the Wiz pg's had a 19.7 PER and it was +3.6 better than their opponent.


In 05-06, Phoenix pg's had a 22.6 PER and were a +6.6 over opposing pg's PERs.

In 05-06, the Wiz pg's had a 23.8 PER and were +6.8 over the opposing pg's PERs.

Looks to me like Gil has been doing a pretty darn good impersonation of a pg if he isnt one. It's not his fault that he isn't surrounded by defensive players that complement what he does.



Posted by: original_mark | December 2, 2008 12:35 PM | Report abuse

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