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Heat, Hawks Make Moves

I was so busy talking to LeBron James, then catching Gilbert Arenas at Barry Farms on Friday that I wasn't able to talk about two under-the-radar moves by the Washington Wizards' opponents in the Southeast Division. In case you didn't notice or care, the Miami Heat decided to acquire the ever-expendable Quentin Richardson, and the Atlanta Hawks came close to adding veteran forward Joe Smith over the weekend.


C'mon, D-Wade. Act like you're happy to have me around. (Photo by Randy Belice/NBAE via Getty Images)

Aside from the fact that Richardson has been traded four times this summer, the Heat made a very solid pickup. Richardson will likely backup Michael Beasley at small forward and gives Miami another three-point shooter to spread the floor for his good friend Dwyane Wade. His friendship with Wade should also be a positive, since Wade often referred to himself as a father to the Heat's young roster last season. And, his presence can placate the pending free agent Wade after the Heat whiffed on Lamar Odom, never seriously pursued Carlos Boozer and have been relatively quiet while saving up for the summer of 2010.

But the Heat really picked up something for nothing, because Mark Blount wasn't going to help Miami win any games this season. Richardson averages 11.5 points over his career and is capable of a 20-point game or two every month or so. Wizards fans might recall that Richardson averaged more than 18 points against them last season (his second-highest scoring average against any team), including a season-high 34 points with seven three-pointers in Eddie Jordan's final game as coach of the team.

You may wonder why Richardson has been re-gifted like a stale fruitcake, switching uniforms five times this offseason, just understand that expiring contracts are like currency in the NBA these days. New Wizard Fabricio Oberto had a partially-guaranteed expiring contract and he switched uniforms four times this summer, from San Antonio to Milwaukee to Detroit in a complicated trade, then he signed in Washington.

Of course, nothing compares to Richardson. Richardson went from New York to Memphis to Los Angeles to Minnesota to Miami in the span of 49 days; traded for Darko Milicic, Zach Randolph, Sebastian Telfair, Craig Smith and Mark Madsen. Fortunately, he didn't have to show up for jersey-hoisting press conferences after each trade. He also won't try to get too comfortable, telling reporters in a conference call, "I'm going to be renting regardless of the situation."


You reach, I teach. (Photo by Joshua Gunter/The Plain Dealer)

Richardson has had a wild summer, but he still would have a ways to go to match Smith, who reportedly has agreed to terms with the Hawks, his 10th different team. Smith had to wait 13 years before winning his first playoff series against the Wizards two season ago with Cleveland, and now the former Maryland star and 1995 No. 1 overall pick hopes to join an emerging contender in the East. SI.com's Steve Aschburner wonders if the Hawks are gearing up for another leap. They lost in the first round two years ago, advanced to the second round last season.

Tim Povtak of AOL Fanhouse said adding Smith pushes the Hawks closer the other elite teams (Boston, Cleveland and Orlando) in the Eastern Conference, especially since they have already retained Mike Bibby, Marvin Williams and Zaza Pachulia and acquired Jamal Crawford in a trade with Golden State.

The Hawks finished with the fourth-best record last season and certainly haven't taken a step back this offseason. The Heat had the fifth-best record in the East last season and while Miami didn't make a major offseason move, it essentially swapped Jamario Moon for Richardson. Those teams won 47 games and 43 games, respectively, last season. To be a top five team in the East next season, the Wizards will likely need to be in that range. But, if Arenas continues to make progress, that shouldn't be a problem.


By Michael Lee  |  August 17, 2009; 11:49 AM ET
 
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Next: Getting to Know Foye

Comments

Don't have anything to say really...but Joe Smith doesn't make ANY team a contender.

First.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | August 17, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

Since when is QR a small forward? Look at the picture. He and Wade are the same size. And, I don't think that move matters much at all nor the Atlanta Hawks move. Yeah, the Hawks are better, but how many more wins better? I think very few.

Plus, last I checked we were DOA last year so that helped the Hawks victory total and eliminated us from the picture. This year we will be in that picture and ahead of the Hawks while battling Orlando for the division.

Posted by: rphilli721 | August 17, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

6-6 to 6-4, but still not a SF.

Posted by: rphilli721 | August 17, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

"Since when is QR a small forward? Look at the picture. He and Wade are the same size."

Your picture must be different than mine --he looks a good inch and a half or two inches taller. Wade was 6'4.75" in his keds when he came into the league, so I'm figuring Quentin is a legit 6'6" or thereabouts.

Not that it makes all that much difference -- he's still shorter than most of the 3's he has to guard. But his rebound and assist totals are reasonably good, and overall he's an effective player, so I think it's a good trade for Miami -- a team that to me at least, looks like it has a number of weaknesses going into the season.

Posted by: Samson151 | August 17, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse

Hawks-Heat was some of the worst playoff basketball I have ever seen. Aint worried about the Hawks.

Posted by: divi3 | August 17, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse

I dont get why ppl think joe smith can be a difference maker on any ball club...did anyone watch him play in the playoffs last year? he didnt do jack for cleveland...he hasnt done jack for any team EVER...at least oberto has been on a winning ball club with championship experience....has joe smith every won anythihg? NO!! I know most people in this area dont hate on him because he was a former terp, but common ppl, hes a bum, so stop betching about why we didnt get him.

Posted by: wizRjizz | August 17, 2009 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Call me crazy, but I bet Joe Smith could have done better than 5pt/5rebs playing alongside TimVP

That said, Joe Smith doesnt make the Hawks into a contender

Posted by: divi3 | August 17, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

Southeast is gonna be wild this year. Save for Charlotte, which is as badly run and glaringly lacking in talent and commercial appeal as the Bullets were in the 80's, I'd say all the other teams (Hawks, Heat, Magic and Wizards) all have a chance to come out as the Southeast Division winner and a top 4 seed.

Posted by: blackman1 | August 17, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

yea, too bad he played along side a scrub like lebron.

Posted by: wizRjizz | August 17, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Who is Joe Smith?

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 1:10 PM | Report abuse

The updates on Arenas were awesome and helped ease my mind about the Wiz success this season. Any news about Blatche, Mcgee or anyone else? How's Caron doing after his injury?

Can you let us know if Dixon will be in the NBA next year? Hope he won't be a Wiz, but if he is, he'll be on the end of the bench anyway. Nonetheless, I'd love to see him get another year or two's paycheck before retirement. Good guy deserves some love.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 1:19 PM | Report abuse

Smith is a 13yr vet who has had the weight of a franchise on his shoulders, has logged heavy minutes most of his career. Definition of the savvy vet. Did he live up to #1 overall? No way, of course not. Bustola.

But he's in higher echleon than career backups that don't shoot, rebound, or block shots but happen to have played on a championship team.

Posted by: divi3 | August 17, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

joe smith"s# > Obertos #s

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | August 17, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

I've always liked Joe Smith, I'll never forget his first year at MD and the Terps came out of nowhere and upset G'town early in the year.

"Big" John Thompson is one of my favorite guys to listen to on the radio, and I root for the Hoya's when they're not playing the Terps. But I did love it when he stumped off the floor after that one.

Joe Smith put Maryland Basketball back on the map, he's more then just an ex- Terp, he led MD out of the wilderness. You don't forget a guy that does that for a program. Any Terp fan is always going to love Joe Smith, & will tell you Giminski killed Buck Williams in the ACC final as time expired in one of the worst "no calls" in ACC history.

Joe's had a nice long NBA career just like diva3 said, but he's never been what I'd call a banger. Now that age is taking it's toll on his legs, he's glued to the floor and has no quickness. Orlando exposed just how unprepared Joe and B. Wallace were to run the floor and defend in the playoffs last year.

For the Wizards needs right now I'd take Oberto over Joe Smith. Oberto is a little bigger and a little stronger then Joe, and he's one of the wiley vets on defense that people just hate to play.

Diva3 would call him a flopper, but it's more then that. But if he flops on Z or "Side Show Bob" and gets the call, that will be really sweet.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | August 17, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

Atlanta is the second game, and it will be a good test for the bench. The starting fives are equal (given that it's an away game), but our bench (Miller, AB, NY and JM) could outscore their bench by 20.

The first game against Dallas is a different story. Everybody will have to be sharp to win this game.

Posted by: Izman | August 17, 2009 2:43 PM | Report abuse

Right off the top the Wiz are going to take a couple of wins away from Atlanta and the Heat.

Riley's still trying to figure out a move spring the Heat to the next level. He just hasn't been able to come up with one. Richardson is a small gain, and having J. O'Neal for the full season might be another.

Haven't heard any real reports on O'Neal's knee, he's been in Chicago working with Grover too. If he could roll back the clock a few years the Heat could make some noise, but I can't see them getting up to Boston or Cleveland status.

But fully healthy, I can see the Wiz making that move if Gil's back playing at Allstar level.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | August 17, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

"Not that it makes all that much difference -- he's still shorter than most of the 3's he has to guard."

Which might matter if QRich ever actually played any defense. As it is, however . . .

The Smith pickup is pretty good for Atlanta. Does it vault them into contention? Of course not. Does it make them better? Yep. It does a couple things for them: (A) It gives them someone they can put on the floor for stretches at C with Horford that will allow Horford to move to PF. That's huge. (B) It gives them a solid veteran locker room presence who can help stabilize the frontline against Josh Smith's wild emotional swings. And it didn't cost them a lot. All in all, a nice cheap move.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 17, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

For the same price, I'd take Smith over Oberto easily. But I would do so with the understanding that as long as things are going well, neither of them would see much floor time.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 17, 2009 3:00 PM | Report abuse

Miami still looks like a weak sister to me. Dwyane Wade, sure, but everybody else looks like a role player, at least to this point. O'Neal is capable of big performances, but night after night? And Beasley hasn't come far to this point...

Posted by: Samson151 | August 17, 2009 3:02 PM | Report abuse

""Big" John Thompson is one of my favorite guys to listen to"

jaaaaaaaaaaaaahn taaaaaaaaaampson shouw, sports talk naaaaaaaaayne eightayy,

yea I love listening to him too, i just love listening to a guy talk about the redskins when he doesnt know the diff between a qb and db.

JOHN:"so doc, tell me..what the coach talkin about when he says we gotta run the footbawll in order to setup the pass...explain that to me!!"

DOC: "OK JOHN, let me explain it in basketball terms, as i have to explain everything to you in that manner...its like feeding your big man inside in order to creat open jump shots"

John: "ohhhhh....so the centa is like the runnin back...and the shoota is like the wide reciever?"

DOC: "EXACTLY!"

Posted by: wizRjizz | August 17, 2009 3:07 PM | Report abuse

i luv the analysis of two playoff teams from fans of a 19 win team.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | August 17, 2009 3:19 PM | Report abuse

lilhollywood10, you are a donkey

Posted by: wizRjizz | August 17, 2009 3:37 PM | Report abuse

LMAO@lilhollywood10......good one.

Posted by: anacostia85 | August 17, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Okay lilhollywood10!the Wizards are not a 19 win team. They were a playoff team 4 straight years before injuries brought them down last year. So I will list the reasons the wizards should win 50 games this year.
1)Arenas is ready to play.
2)Brendan Haywood is ready to play
3)Injuries to starters allowed the accelerated development of Team b:McGee, McGuire, Young, Blatche,Crittenton
4)The acquisition of Foye and Miller
5) Depth:Stevenson, Oberto, and Mike James
are buried on the bench and all three of them are experienced starters in the league.
50 games this year
5)The hiring of Flip Saunders

Posted by: firemetalrat | August 17, 2009 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Joe Smith is a forward and Oberto is a center. That said I love the way Smith played in Cleveland. He is versatile. Oberto isn't very versatile but he is a true center and a real upgrade over Songaila at center.Joe Smith is the better player but for the wiz needs Oberto may be the better fit.
And what great battles Joe Smith had against Rasheed Wallace in college. I never missed a UM-UNC then.

Posted by: firemetalrat | August 17, 2009 4:26 PM | Report abuse

firemetal: "So I will list the reasons the wizards should win 50 games this year."

To be fair, you should also list the reasons they shouldn't win 50 games this year.

Posted by: Samson151 | August 17, 2009 4:37 PM | Report abuse

Even John Thompson knows the Redskins are trying to have Bugal put together an O line with smoke and mirrors. But if anybody in pro football can do it Bugal can.

lilhollywood10, you better jump on the bandwagon before it leaves the Station. Even with no Gil the current roster is a playoff competitive team. Foye/Crittiton are a decent point guard combo. Young/ Stephenson at the 2, Butler/Miller/McGuire at the 3, Jamison/Blatche at the 4, and Haywood/McGee/Oberto form a decently deep NBA roster.

Add Arenas the team is improved at both guard spots. Foye is for real, playing along side Arenas makes the guy even better, I look for him to score more on less shots per game.

I'd like to see a little more NBA established depth at the 4 and 5. But Ernie's still holding Mike James's expiring deal, has Veeremenko stashed in Europe, some young players with some upside and cheap deals, is holding all of his future picks, and has even some other players with expiring contracts to deal if he'd like.

On the last post Kal was saying Dumars wasn't done dealing, I'm not sure we've seen Ernie's last move either.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | August 17, 2009 4:40 PM | Report abuse

the reason why wiz wont win 50 games this year is very short.

1 GA and BH get hurt.

theres your list.

Posted by: wizRjizz | August 17, 2009 4:41 PM | Report abuse

""Big" John Thompson is one of my favorite guys to listen to"

jaaaaaaaaaaaaahn taaaaaaaaaampson shouw, sports talk naaaaaaaaayne eightayy,

yea I love listening to him too, i just love listening to a guy talk about the redskins when he doesnt know the diff between a qb and db.

JOHN:"so doc, tell me..what the coach talkin about when he says we gotta run the footbawll in order to setup the pass...explain that to me!!"

DOC: "OK JOHN, let me explain it in basketball terms, as i have to explain everything to you in that manner...its like feeding your big man inside in order to creat open jump shots"

John: "ohhhhh....so the centa is like the runnin back...and the shoota is like the wide reciever?"

DOC: "EXACTLY!"

That's funny but so true.

Posted by: thecomedian1 | August 17, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

lilhollywood10, you are a donkey

Posted by: wizRjizz | August 17, 2009 3:37 PM
your wife sure thought she was at the donkey show

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | August 17, 2009 5:02 PM | Report abuse

i kry

Posted by: wizRjizz | August 17, 2009 5:06 PM | Report abuse

lilhollywood10, you better jump on the bandwagon before it leaves the Station. Even with no Gil the current roster is a playoff competitive team. Foye/Crittiton are a decent point guard combo. Young/ Stephenson at the 2, Butler/Miller/McGuire at the 3, Jamison/Blatche at the 4, and Haywood/McGee/Oberto form a decently deep NBA roster.

look, i'm not a bandwagon rider. i've only cheered for 1 b-ball team since i've been watching bball. i've only cheered for 1 football team and until a coupla years ago i didn't like baseball at all. I root for my home teams (washington DC teams, at least by name) regardless of record. i'm the guy who always says "we got'em next year" i'll still like the wiz win or lose so get over yourself.

Has anyone here ever heard me say that i don't like the wiz, or that i want them to lose? i may have not liked some personell moves this summer, but never did i jump ship.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | August 17, 2009 5:12 PM | Report abuse

I still think you are a donkey

Posted by: wizRjizz | August 17, 2009 5:16 PM | Report abuse

well i think you're wonderful, and the wife's even better!!!!!!!

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | August 17, 2009 5:19 PM | Report abuse

BLURRED: Can you let us know if Dixon will be in the NBA next year? Hope he won't be a Wiz, but if he is, he'll be on the end of the bench anyway. Nonetheless, I'd love to see him get another year or two's paycheck before retirement. Good guy deserves some love.

LOL...Are you serious? JUAN DIXON!?! BUM! I sure as heck hope (which I seriously doubt with 7 guards already on our roster) HE WILL NOT BE BACK IN A WIZARDS UNIFORM this coming season.

Posted by: rf2litenva | August 17, 2009 5:20 PM | Report abuse

By the way...I was kidding when I asked who Joe Smith is. I loved watching him play for MD, even though I am not a MD fan. What are his career stats? 11,000 pts and almost 6500 boards in 13 seasons is not bad. I wonder how that compares with the average of #1 picks.

Just looking at the list, I would guess better than the full career stats of:

Yao (unless he can come back)
Kwame
Kenyon Martin
Olowakandi
Ellison
Sampson
Kent benson

About the same as:
Brand
Glenn Robinson (more pts and less boards)
Larry Johnson
Derrick Coleman
Brad Daugherty
Joe barry Carroll
Danny manning
James Worthy
Mychal Thompson
Mark Aguirre

And worse than:
Duncan
Iverson
Webber
Shaq
david Robinson
Ewing
Olajowan
Magic

That puts him right about in the middle of the #1 pack.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Right off the top of my head I can tell you that Smith's career numbers don't come anywhere close to Yao's. Yao is about 20/10 on his career. Smith is nowhere near that.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 17, 2009 5:25 PM | Report abuse

rf2lite - are you illiterate?

What part of "I hope he is not in a Wizards uniform" can you not comprehend?

I was just saying that the guy had a rough life and has been a model citizen and deserves a little love. I am guessing he can also read at at least a 7th grade level, which puts him at least 5 grades above you.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 5:25 PM | Report abuse

Kal - i get your point about Yao being a better player for the seasons he was active, but if the reports are true about him maybe not ever playing again this is what he has total:

pts: 9196
boards: 4467

granted...thats in like 6 fewer years, but if that is the life of his career, then that is it.

BTW...I'd love to see Yao come back. A joy to watch.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 5:29 PM | Report abuse

I'm willing to bet Bogut wont see 11,000pts, and Bargani isnt going to grab 6500 boards.

But Joe was ncaa player of the year and way more hyped than Bogut/Bargnani

Nice work on the list, btw.

Posted by: divi3 | August 17, 2009 5:30 PM | Report abuse

Just looked up Smith's numbers: 12 and 7 on his career. That puts him below most of the guys you claim he's as good or better than. (Of course, if you're going by cumulative numbers rather than average, he comes out ahead simply because he's played more years--14 and counting--than most players. But that's not really a fair measure of comparative quality.)

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 17, 2009 5:31 PM | Report abuse

And sorry...I should have quoted myself more correctly:

"Hope he won't be a Wiz."

I guess he could wear a Wizards Uniform...for old times sake...as long as he isn't on their roster.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 5:31 PM | Report abuse

fair enough Kal...there is the whole "impact" aspect. That is probably more important than cumulative numbers.

Really, I was just trying to say he wasn't a huge bust, but about the average of what you can expect from a #1 overall pick. He also missed about a season or two of total injury time over that career.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 5:34 PM | Report abuse

20 and 10 doesn't quite matter that much if you only do it a season or two. 13-14 years is a good career.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 5:36 PM | Report abuse

"20 and 10 doesn't quite matter that much if you only do it a season or two."

It counts for those seasons you do it in. And Yao's done it more than "a couple of times." Otherwise his career average wouldn't be 19 and 9.

Look, Joe Smith is a solid NBA vet who's had a nice long career. But he is, by no meaningful measure, a better player than Yao Ming or Elton Brand. I don't care how many points and rebounds he grabs as a hanger on in his twilight years.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 17, 2009 5:43 PM | Report abuse

Hard to say where injuries fit in. Did Ralph Sampson have knee issues at UVA? Cause dude was dominant the moment he stepped into the nba, but derailed by injuries.

On the other hand, Greg Oden was gimpy in college and is probably 46 years old. So maybe more apt named a bust or mistake if he doesnt pan out

Posted by: divi3 | August 17, 2009 5:59 PM | Report abuse

Who is LeBronny James ?

love it !

All of the DeMatha basketball players - have no interest in Maryland

Maryland basketball will finish with a 15-16 record

No NCAA bid

No NIT bid

Maryland will finish with a 2-10 record.

Maryland's defensive line and linebacker corps are a joke --- no pass rush whatsoever and give up a ton of long yardage plays.

I have seen harder hitting teams in powder puff leagues.

The only hard hits the Terps make - are out of bound plays - which cost them an additional 15 yards - which are quite frequent.

California's running back - Best - will gain 296 yards in the opening game

I love it, when Maryland constantly gets embarrassed on national TV.

Prediction:

California -- 56
Maryland -- 10

It's hilarious to see Maryland win a game - and the very next week get clobbered by a Virginia Tech - Boston College.

It is great to see Maryland go down to a crushing defeat on the football recruiting front (the kids they have received commitments from - are a joke! - taking the bottom of the barrel)

Carolina Blue - Carolina WHITE - Go Tar Heels - Let's go Tar Heels !

Posted by: hclark1 | August 17, 2009 5:59 PM | Report abuse

Good work Kal...I've always tended to agree with you on these posts, but I guess I got suckered into one of these back and forths too.

Read my list post again and tell me where I ever said Anyone was better or worse than someone else. All I was doing was comparing career totals.

Nor did I ever say that yao only did 20 10 a season or two. It was more of a philosophical musing about players that put up strong numbers once or twice. Although, I did post that after your defense of Yao, so i could see where you might infer that.

You do realize that I agreed with both of your critiques of my post, though, don't you?

First here: Kal - i get your point about Yao being a better player for the seasons he was active

And then here: fair enough Kal...there is the whole "impact" aspect. That is probably more important than cumulative numbers.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 6:31 PM | Report abuse

My point about 20 and 10 would probably more likely refer to someone like DC, who basically averaged about 20 and 10 for his first 6 seasons...but the nets and sixers blew back then, so it didn't really impact much.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 6:35 PM | Report abuse

make that DC's first 5 seasons

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 6:35 PM | Report abuse

"Read my list post again and tell me where I ever said Anyone was better or worse than someone else. All I was doing was comparing career totals."

And the clear point of that comparison was to imply that Joe Smith's career numbers were better. To wit:

"Just looking at the list, I would guess better than the full career stats of:"
Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 5:21 PM

And then there's this:

"20 and 10 doesn't quite matter that much if you only do it a season or two. 13-14 years is a good career."

Which is pretty clearly implying that Smith's had a better career than Yao. He hasn't. He's simply had a longer career (so far) than Yao.

"You do realize that I agreed with both of your critiques of my post, though, don't you?"

You do realize that after stating your "agreement" you proceeded to continue the same argument I was refuting, the one which you claim to "agree" with, don't you?

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 17, 2009 6:37 PM | Report abuse

All of the DeMatha basketball players - have no interest in Maryland

Posted by: hclark1 | August 17, 2009 5:59 PM

That's because DeMatha is right next to Maryland and if you are good enough to play where ever you want why would you play at Maryland?

How come the Tar Heels (who get 5 McDonald all americans every year) only have 4 national championships (in the modern era)? They have the best players every year and still can't win it all? It's like when we send pro basketball players to international competitions and they lose. The Tar Heels are a joke, sorry Larry, but you know me I keep it real.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | August 17, 2009 6:40 PM | Report abuse

"My point about 20 and 10 would probably more likely refer to someone like DC, who basically averaged about 20 and 10 for his first 6 seasons...but the nets and sixers blew back then, so it didn't really impact much."

Sorry, but it doesn't apply here either. Now, there's no question that Joe Smith has been a better teammate, NBA representative, and maybe even a better person than Derrick Coleman. But comparing their careers on the court in any way other than longevity, Smith still comes up short.

Smith is a career journeymen, role player, and locker room glue guy. That's nothing to be ashamed of, but it's not exactly a great resume for a former #1 overall pick.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 17, 2009 6:43 PM | Report abuse

All I ever said was he is about average for number 1 picks. This was in response to a couple posters who said he was a huge bust.

And all I was doing to support that was to show where I thought his career totals fit with the other #1's for about 25 years. Also note that this was just where I figured their stats would be based on my memory of their career. I went back to check DC's and Yao's stats later.

To make my point, I would definitely say that Worthy was a better player than Smith, even though I would guess their stats are about even.

And to make it clear...I EMPHATICALLY AGREE THAT YAO MING IS/WAS A BETTER PLAYER THAN JOE SMITH.

And let's be fair and put the quote you chose in its full context:
"What are his career stats? 11,000 pts and almost 6500 boards in 13 seasons is not bad. I wonder how that compares with the average of #1 picks.

Just looking at the list, I would guess better than the full career stats of:"

I am sorry if you misunderstood that I was comparing career stats for boards and points. I am not sure how much clearer I could make that.

Now...if you want to argue over who was a better player or contributor or teammate or whatever - DC or Smith, I would say they both probably added about the same, although I think Smiths teams, where he actually played more that 3/4 of the games had better records than DC's and DC was team killer. Neither player was significantly better than the other, although I'd take Smith c. 2000 on my team over DC c. 1995 any day.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 7:16 PM | Report abuse

You are out of your mind if you put Smith in the same category as any of the "about the same as" players listed -- For starters, James Worthy -- one of the 50 greatest players ever. No way. I must have missed the all-star teams that Joe Smith made or the championships he won.

And he is not better than Yao regardless of whether Yao returns. Smith was a bust as a #1 pick -- he stuck around but so has Kwame Brown. Joe Smith might be equal to Kenyon Martin.....maybe.

Posted by: Chad32 | August 17, 2009 7:24 PM | Report abuse

Chad...would you care to read the post I put up about 6 minutes before your? Or re-read the orignal post where I was comparing CAREER TOTALS for boards and pts?

Nowhere, ever, did I say that Smith was better than Yao or as 'worthy' as Worthy. Only that I thought their career totals in those categories compared.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 7:29 PM | Report abuse

As far as Kwmae goes...when he shows up in 7 years or whatever still playing and has 11,000 and 6500, I'll agree with you.

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 7:30 PM | Report abuse

Players are considered busts when compared to the guys taken after them in the same draft. Smith is considered a bust because he was picked before McDyess, Rasheed Wallace, and Garnett.

Posted by: djnnnou | August 17, 2009 7:51 PM | Report abuse

DJ...that makes sense. Dang...that was a solid draft year

Just asking: was big dog a bust compared to his #2 - jason Kidd?
Larry johnson before Dikimbe?
DC before Payton?

Pervis Ellison before Danny ferry? (just kidding- but that looks laughable now...those two before Hardaway, Shawn kemp and BJ Armstrong!)

Posted by: Blurred | August 17, 2009 8:17 PM | Report abuse

Grandmama was definitely not a bust. Glen Robinson was a repeat all-star, and I don't remember Jason Kidd getting that much respect until he went to New Jersey. I do remember Gary Payton got considerable pleasure abusing him when Kidd was with Phoenix. DC was a bust, but anybody other than GP would be a bust in that draft.

Posted by: djnnnou | August 17, 2009 9:02 PM | Report abuse

Love the confidence folks are showing in our ballclub this year. Those naysayers voices are far in the background now. Some teams, 90% of the readers would vote for their team even if they didn't have a chance. Wiz fans are/have been a little self-deprecatory, darkly cynical even, about the Wiz. Good to see a little light out here.

Posted by: jistutz | August 17, 2009 9:26 PM | Report abuse

hey blurred, before everyone drives you crazy, I'll go on record as being someone who read your orginal post carefully, and noted that you were just showing career numbers (regardless of career length or season averages), and that you were not commenting on which players were better. It was a decent statistical note, but I guess statistics always start the bar room debates and tonight you have your hands full!

As another note for the thread - I'm not a fan of a 19 win team, just as I am not a third grader. Both things happened, and both things are lonnnnng in the past.

Posted by: ragtop4spd | August 17, 2009 9:42 PM | Report abuse

"Don't have anything to say really...but Joe Smith doesn't make ANY team a contender.

First.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | August 17, 2009 12:13 PM "

And neither does Oberto.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 17, 2009 9:47 PM | Report abuse

"Not that it makes all that much difference -- he's still shorter than most of the 3's he has to guard. But his rebound and assist totals are reasonably good, and overall he's an effective player, so I think it's a good trade for Miami -- a team that to me at least, looks like it has a number of weaknesses going into the season.

Posted by: Samson151 | August 17, 2009 12:37 PM "

And Caron be 6-7'ish or less too.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 17, 2009 9:51 PM | Report abuse

"And let's be fair and put the quote you chose in its full context:"

Please let's, since doing so only furthers my point and further undercuts yours.

"What are his career stats? 11,000 pts and almost 6500 boards in 13 seasons is not bad. I wonder how that compares with the average of #1 picks."

See your problem there? You said you wanted to compare averages when, in fact, you were comparing totals. And, of course Smiths' totals are going to better than most of the guys you mentioned, because most of them didn't play 14 years in the NBA. When you actually compare averages (which is what you claimed you wanted to know and what i actually did ) Smith's numbers are pretty far behind most of the players you name.

"I am sorry if you misunderstood that I was comparing career stats for boards and points. I am not sure how much clearer I could make that."

I didn't misunderstand a damn thing. I fully understand that you were comparing total career stats as a way of ranking Joe Smith in comparison to other players. (To try and claim otherwise is ludicrous. You wrote down three separate lists of names and ranked them according to whether Smith was better, as good, or worse, based on your statistical comparison. It's right there on the screen for everyone to see, so trying to backpedal away from it like you didn't say it just makes you look bad.) I was simply pointing out that comparing the total cumulative numbers of a guy who played 14 years with those of guys who played only 5, 6, or 7 and then claiming the 14 year guy's numbers were "better" is, of corse, a pile of horsesh*t. Of course Smith's cumulative numbers are "better." He played twice as many seasons as the other guys. And the simple, obvious, fact is that such a comparison tells you nothing of value about how one guy stacks up against another unless you break them down into averages, which is what I did. And based on that breakdown, it's pretty clear that Smith isn't really "better" than most (if any) of the guys you claimed he was "better" than.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 17, 2009 10:57 PM | Report abuse

Saw the straw poll which dissed the HAWKS. Better be prepared for these guys WIZARDS. They've grown up and matured.

Posted by: glawrence007 | August 17, 2009 11:54 PM | Report abuse

Les BouleS better pray for BTH's health. Without him manning the middle, it'll be a long tough season.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 18, 2009 12:11 AM | Report abuse

OK - last time:

It is obvious the indefinite article "that," as used in this context refers to his numbers, not his overall ability. So you must have "misunderstood this da** thing"

As you quoted - I said "average" not "averages." They are not the same word, although have the same base. I guess you misunderstood this da** thing too. What I referred to is the "average" #1 pick's career pts and rebounds, not their "averages." Again...just read what I actually said, not what you misunderstand me to mean.

Further, I never said Joe Smith was better, worse or the same as any player in the initial post. I said his career totals in two categories were.

I agreed with you that it didn't mean Joe Smith was better than the guys that played less. Just that he had a good career and fit into the average of number 1 picks in lifetime production in two major categories (since almost all of the #1 picks in that 25 year span were centers or PFs).

Lastly, there are only two ludicrous things here...the venom with which you write here and the thought that any person here would think that Joe Smith was better than Yao Ming...or comparable as an overall player to James Worthy or GMM or Big Dog or any number of players.

Last I'll post here. I hope you took your heart medicine.

Posted by: Blurred | August 18, 2009 12:19 AM | Report abuse

DCMan88 said "Manning in the Middle"!!! Now that is funny.

Always hated Danny Manning.

Posted by: Blurred | August 18, 2009 12:21 AM | Report abuse

Heat have a ways to go IMO

I like the Hawks roster, but I still contend they are without that true difference-maker and that's no disrespect to the Joe J. and Josh S...but I do think Joe Smith is a prticularly good fit for this team...because one of their major issues have been playing longer teams. The Hawks front line is comprised of ultra-athletic but undersized players... J. Smith helps to address this.

I like the Wiz roster slightly better than the Hawks...primarily because the Wiz can go big if needed (Blatche , Oberto and J.McGee) and the Wiz have the difference maker the Hawks lack, Gilbert Arenas.

Posted by: cedric_lockhart | August 18, 2009 8:21 AM | Report abuse

And neither does Oberto.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 17, 2009 9:47 PM

I never said he was. I forget that's just what you do. I'm just never going to waste time responding to you ever again.

I like the Wiz roster slightly better than the Hawks...primarily because the Wiz can go big if needed (Blatche , Oberto and J.McGee) and the Wiz have the difference maker the Hawks lack, Gilbert Arenas.

The Hawks still have Joe Johnson right? I still like Washington's roster too...but they definitely have a difference maker.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | August 18, 2009 8:46 AM | Report abuse

Oberto might not make the Wiz contenders, but he will contribute materially to the team. His playing will be another factor in why the Wiz are contenders. How's that?

Posted by: 7snider7 | August 18, 2009 9:25 AM | Report abuse

Injuries have derailed Yao what, 4 seasons in a row now?

If he's never fully healthy again....Caron turns out to be the better draft pick!

Posted by: divi3 | August 18, 2009 11:06 AM | Report abuse

If he's never fully healthy again....Caron turns out to be the better draft pick!

Yes, if you're only going by longevity.

Posted by: djnnnou | August 18, 2009 12:38 PM | Report abuse

One could argue Yao's health has hamstrung the rockets '05-'09 (if memory serves me).

When your franchise guy cant stay on the floor, at some point more harm than good is being done. You can't move forward, but you can't count on the player to be there when it matters most.

Yet another another reason all this news of Gil's health allows for a (guarded) sigh of relief

Posted by: divi3 | August 18, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

Have to agree that yao is/was a game changer. You try to build a team around a guy like Yao.

Caron is an excellent player and can make the difference sometimes, but he is one of the pieces you put around a guy like Yao.

However, I'd love to see him play 15 years and the last 12 of them in DC as a piece of the team built around Arenas that gets us a couple Championships.

You don't even have to start, lil, DC and 78 - I know, I know...but I guy can hope, right?

Posted by: Blurred | August 18, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

As of today, would you trade Caron for Yao?

I wouldnt, and that's 100% based on yao's health (obviously).

Posted by: divi3 | August 18, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

NBA.com has the Wiz at number 9 on their Power Rankings as of today.

Wow. Someone is drinking Ernie's cool-aid over there. Does get me excited for the season though.

Posted by: m1ke3i6 | August 18, 2009 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Trading for, or signing a guy with an injury problem takes a lot of due diligence. Shaq appeared done when he was on the Heat, he credits the Suns medical staff helping him overcome the chronic foot problems that he had been battling all the way back to the LA days.

Will Shaq get the same care, or continue to follow the stretching routine that the Suns staff got him on now that he's in Cleveland?

That's a factor in Cleveland's gamble that few are considering, What if Shaq's chronic foot problems resurface? I don't believe the Suns included their famed medical staff in the deal.

I haven't followed Yao's injury history that closely, but the guy's got to be frustrated. I've always wondered how his continued commitment to play for the China National Basketball will effect him long term. I know that he was playing nearly year round for a couple of years in a row.

Somewhere along the line you'd think the NBA, the Rockets, and China Basketball could work out some arrangement to lesson his workload when he's healthy. He's one of the league's big draws and he's a National hero in China.

But he's doing no one any good if he completely breaks down. China Basketball needs to look at the big picture, the NBA could possibly negotiate to do more games/ player appearances in China to get Yao's workload reduced.

Couldn't the worldwide fame of being one of the best players in the NBA, be as important to China as a few wins in Olympic or World Championship competition?

I doubt Houston would ever give him up, but he'd be an intriguing guy if they ever put him on the market.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | August 18, 2009 2:11 PM | Report abuse

Despite the consistant comment by both EG and flip,I still believe that there is duplication at 3 and 2 position.If we want to be at the top of the south east division we need to get big with a trade.
Butler is a heavy minute holder, limiting his minute for less than 30 will hurt the team.MM need to play at 3 position, we have an other defenssive minded player on SF position(DM), Ny also needs some minute at Sf position mainly for shooting.AJ can also play some SF position. AF, DS, DM, MM,NY GA and MJ can play as a SG.No matter what each player brings to the team, non of them except Dm bring defensive up grade.having multiple potential stars for 1 or 2 position is a success if it improve defense.sharing minutes just for offense does not need multiple talent.jump shooting can not be a major factor to put us in the top three positions in east.we need to talk to newyork for a sign and trade.It is time to give up on Blache or NY with the expiring contract of MJ for DL.He is an energy player, does not need ball to contribute to the offense, he is an agressive rebounder and if arenas want to pass he will be much better than AB in scoring.He run the floor very well. If he sign for 7-9 million for 2-3 years, he could even start at 4 or 5 in the future.It is just hard for me to depend on the progress on AB, he might improve to 13 p7 r and 1.5 block and 5 turn overs but not enough to be at the top of south east.
Washington also need to look to land a star big man for 2009-10 with mike miller , DS and /or NY.

Posted by: gtefferra | August 18, 2009 2:23 PM | Report abuse

"NBA.com has the Wiz at number 9 on their Power Rankings as of today." - m1ke3i6

That's an interesting list. The top 3 are a given. Boston I gotta wonder about, because of health and age. I think Atlanta, Portland, Toronto, and Washington are the most intriguing.

Atlanta has the talent to be a very good team, if their young guys can make that last step up from 'pretty good' to 'very good.' Their lack of a true starting center I think will hurt them in the end.

Portland's rise will rest mostly on Oden's health. They're a good team without him, they could be the top 2 or 3 in the West with him completely healthy.

Toronto added firepower with Turkoglu and Belinelli. Bargnani is becoming a solid player, too. Tey're going to be able to score well, but they'll probably be a worse defensive team than the Wizards of the last year.

Washington, you could argue has almost as much talent as Atlanta (though older) without Arenas. Add him in, and they are an excellent team. Top 3 offensively. Top 10 in depth (not as important in the playoffs, but essential in getting them there in a good spot). The question is how effective Saunders can be in coaxing out some solid defensive play. Having a healthy Haywood and Stevenson, an improving Blatche and McGee, and adding Foye should also help with the individual defensive skill set.

Posted by: segastyle | August 18, 2009 2:43 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Joe Smith, I think he would have been a nice fit for the Wiz as a backup at the 4/5, but he's probably going to get more PT with Atlanta who doesn't have a true PF behind Josh Smith. The Wiz already have Blatche and McGee as backups and Jamison's minutes aren't likely to drop much this year. Smith would have been an expensive insurance policy (although I'm not sure if his contract is for more than Oberto accepted).

Smith is clearly a better all around player than Oberto, but probably wasn't as good a fit when the Wiz were considering a backup bigman. Since we play Atlanta the 2nd game of the season, it will be interesting to see how many minutes Smith logs for Atlanta and at what position.

Posted by: wizfan89 | August 18, 2009 3:05 PM | Report abuse

"Lastly, there are only two ludicrous things here...the venom with which you write here "

Venom? Oh please. There was nothing personal in anything I wrote, nothing that could in any reasonable way be interpreted as such. Your overreaction makes it pretty clear, however, that you take anyone pointing out the flaws in your argument very personally. Either learn to deal with it or learn to get it right. Either way, not really my problem though.

"and the thought that any person here would think that Joe Smith was better than Yao Ming...or comparable as an overall player to James Worthy or GMM or Big Dog or any number of players."

And here we can agree. It's ludicrous that you would put forth an argument designed to create the impression that Smith was the equal of or better than the likes of Yao Ming or Elton Brand in any way shape or form. It's even more ludicrous that you've devoted this much time and energy to first defending such a claim and now claiming (incredulously) that you never made such a claim. It's all still right there on the screen for all to read. Just because you close your eyes, cover your ears, and go "lalalalalala" doesn't mean we can't see and hear you.


"Despite the consistant comment by both EG and flip,I still believe that there is duplication at 3 and 2 position."

Duplication = depth. Depth is a good thing.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 18, 2009 3:21 PM | Report abuse

"As of today, would you trade Caron for Yao?

I wouldnt, and that's 100% based on yao's health (obviously)."

But that's not really a fair comparison, because we already know Yao is going to miss the entire season. If there were a reasonable chance he would be able to play this season (and an equally reasonable chance he could re-injure himself), the equation would change.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 18, 2009 3:24 PM | Report abuse

"Yes, if you're only going by longevity. "

Exactly. The Rockets have to take some of the blame for Yao's predicament. They've had six years to buiid a team around him that didn't require him to do all of the heavy lifting for them to have any chance of success and didn't do it. The best they got were guys like Francis and McGrady, who couldn't because of their own issues (physical, emotional, attitudinal).

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 18, 2009 3:29 PM | Report abuse

"Regarding Joe Smith, I think he would have been a nice fit for the Wiz as a backup at the 4/5, but he's probably going to get more PT with Atlanta who doesn't have a true PF behind Josh Smith. The Wiz already have Blatche and McGee as backups and Jamison's minutes aren't likely to drop much this year. Smith would have been an expensive insurance policy (although I'm not sure if his contract is for more than Oberto accepted)."

The Hawks don't have a true PF anywhere around and including Josh Smith. Unless you count Horford, who's starting at C. And according to reports, Smith signed for the vet minimum, just like Oberto.

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 18, 2009 3:34 PM | Report abuse

"Portland's rise will rest mostly on Oden's health. They're a good team without him, they could be the top 2 or 3 in the West with him completely healthy."

I don't know about that. Certainly they'll be better if he makes a consistent contribution, but he hasn't done anything to suggest he's a big enough impact player to be the key to their success. I think the continued development of Aldridge and Roy (who are still young players) and how Miller fits in and how Blake adjusts to his new role will have a bigger impact. (Unless Pryzbilla gets hurt, in which case Oden's ability to step up really will take on a determining factor.)

Posted by: kalo_rama | August 18, 2009 3:40 PM | Report abuse

Couldn't the worldwide fame of being one of the best players in the NBA, be as important to China as a few wins in Olympic or World Championship competition?

Nothing was more important than the Beijing Olympics.

I doubt Houston would ever give him up, but he'd be an intriguing guy if they ever put him on the market.
GM

I don't see him leaving Houston either. I'd like to know how much money the Rockets make from international TV rights and arena ad revenue.

Posted by: djnnnou | August 18, 2009 4:17 PM | Report abuse

I'd agree that build up to the Bejing Olympics China was never going to let Yao out of playing for the National Team.

But the guy needs to cut down his workload. But the agreement he had to sign to come to the NBA doesn't allow him to decide.

Part of Houston's problem was Van Gundy's grind it out approach as coach. His style of play worked in the 90's when a lot more hand checking and contact was allowed on the perimeter.

The league's rule changes has all but eliminated Pat Riley's "force basketball" style. Van Gundy was the last real proponent of that left in the league.

As the Wizards roster stands today there are 7 guards. Mike James and possibly Stephenson could have trouble getting out of their suits, let alone get playing time. The only thing Desawn has going in his favor is that he's a decent defender on big physical 2 guards.

McGuire is the other guy that's going to have to fight for minutes behind Butler and Miller. There could possibly be a few minutes at the two for Miller to get, but right now McGuire might have to prove he can play a little 4 to see the court.

Depth is a great thing to have, but I'd agree if the Wiz could pull off something to upgrade at the 4 or 5 and give up James and even one of the young guys like Blatche or Young it could upgrade the team.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | August 18, 2009 4:56 PM | Report abuse

Kal, I am glad you finally see that we agree. I am glad we are friends again.

Your buddy,

Posted by: Blurred | August 18, 2009 5:15 PM | Report abuse

"Depth is a great thing to have, but I'd agree if the Wiz could pull off something to upgrade at the 4 or 5 and give up James and even one of the young guys like Blatche or Young it could upgrade the team.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | August 18, 2009 4:56 PM "

Ummm, wasn't Oberto the upgrade at the 4 and 5 that EG was salivating over since free agency season kicked off?

Regardless, according to EG, if you believe him, he says he's done and the team's set for the season.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 18, 2009 5:24 PM | Report abuse

"DCMan88 said "Manning in the Middle"!!! Now that is funny.

Always hated Danny Manning.

Posted by: Blurred | August 18, 2009 12:21 AM "

I said manning the middle...not manning in your middle.

I know why your handle is "blurred."


-------------------------------------------

"Without him manning the middle, it'll be a long tough season.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 18, 2009 12:11 AM "

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 18, 2009 5:30 PM | Report abuse

"I'm just never going to waste time responding to you ever again.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | August 18, 2009 8:46 AM "

Whatever.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 18, 2009 5:31 PM | Report abuse

Yao is very often completely gassed in the 4th quarter of games. Of the league's impact players and franchise guys, who averages less floortime than Ming's 32 minutes over his career?

These injuries are really devastating for him, there is only so much non-weight bearing cardio you can do. Yao's fitness he worked so admirably to build up, will now be shot. Again.

imho, it's turning out Yao's size is a double-edged sword that is currently ruining him. Wish him all the best, but personally am doubtful he'll ever be 'back and better than ever.'

Posted by: divi3 | August 18, 2009 6:07 PM | Report abuse

'McGuire is the other guy that's going to have to fight for minutes behind Butler and Miller.'

He did play some 4 last season, and he's somewhat suited to it though undersized. Cant shoot outside of 5ft, loves to rebound, defend, and block shots. That could earn minutes at 4 on nights AB is up to some of his tomfoolery.


Posted by: divi3 | August 18, 2009 6:24 PM | Report abuse

Kal, I am glad you finally see that we agree. I am glad we are friends again.

Your buddy,

Posted by: Blurred | August 18, 2009 5:15 PM

talking about ass kissing!!!
better grab a towel...

Posted by: Goelez | August 19, 2009 5:41 AM | Report abuse

McGuire is going to get plenty of minutes this year. When our firepower gets us a good-sized lead, Flip will play a defender like McGuire instead of a scorer like Nick Young. In football terms, Dom is like a prevent defense, Nick is a no-huddle offense. They each have their place. This year, with the talent we have, I expect/hope we will be using our prevent defense a lot.

Posted by: yop32 | August 19, 2009 7:16 AM | Report abuse

"DCMan88 said "Manning in the Middle"!!! Now that is funny.

Always hated Danny Manning.

Posted by: Blurred | August 18, 2009 12:21 AM "

I said manning the middle...not manning in your middle.

Sorry DCMan - I was just trying to do a little Kalo style misrepresentation...you know, like saying "average" as in not great, not awful is the same word as "averages" as in career ppg averages.

Also, I was just making a joke. I hope all y'all's health insurance is paid up cuz the hypertension in here is devastating.

Posted by: Blurred | August 19, 2009 7:22 AM | Report abuse

By the way...I think your comment "not Manning in your middle" qualifies as homophobic, anti-gay and actually as hate speech. Is there a moderator in here?

Posted by: Blurred | August 19, 2009 8:00 AM | Report abuse

By the way...I think your comment "not Manning in your middle" qualifies as homophobic, anti-gay and actually as hate speech. Is there a moderator in here?

Posted by: Blurred | August 19, 2009 8:00 AM

If there was one, you wouldn't be here anymore under your present name...

Posted by: Goelez | August 19, 2009 8:58 AM | Report abuse

"By the way...I think your comment "not Manning in your middle" qualifies as homophobic, anti-gay and actually as hate speech. Is there a moderator in here?

Posted by: Blurred | August 19, 2009 8:00 AM "

Prozac and red bull don't mix dude.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | August 19, 2009 5:50 PM | Report abuse

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